IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 3rd, 2010

bruce89	that's nice, but I still won't vote for them	Mar 03 00:00
sebsebseb	bruce89 and you won't vote for Labour, so you vote Liberal Democrat?	Mar 03 00:00
MinceR	perhaps m$ wants to turn novell into a genuine subsidiary? :>	Mar 03 00:00
_goblin	sebsebseb, interesting...but can't comment.	Mar 03 00:00
sebsebseb	_goblin why not?	Mar 03 00:00
_goblin	Im not supposed to discuss politics.	Mar 03 00:00
sebsebseb	_goblin Since you work for the goverment?	Mar 03 00:01
_goblin	I know Im anon, but I take that "promise" very seriously.	Mar 03 00:01
_goblin	sebsebseb, can I pm you?	Mar 03 00:01
sebsebseb	_goblin of course	Mar 03 00:01
oiaohm	MinceR: unlikely MS does not want to become directly linked to GPLv3 or GPLv2 so risking removing there patent arms.	Mar 03 00:02
bruce89	sebsebseb: no	Mar 03 00:02
MinceR	ic	Mar 03 00:02
MinceR	or perhaps a big player got tired of the crap m$ was pulling via novell?	Mar 03 00:02
oiaohm	I would put liquidation of assets as number 1. MinceR	Mar 03 00:03
MinceR	well, liquidation would do that	Mar 03 00:03
oiaohm	At 2 billion dollars lot of different Linux support companies could of raised that but its the wrong time.	Mar 03 00:03
oiaohm	Ie let SCO be 100 percent dead first.	Mar 03 00:03
oiaohm	Heck the Linux foundation could of even raised 2 billion.	Mar 03 00:04
schestowitz	Don't forget the WOrdPErfect lawsuit	Mar 03 00:04
MinceR	what if they just hold on to it until sco dies?	Mar 03 00:04
MinceR	or perhaps something's going to happen to sco too?	Mar 03 00:04
oiaohm	Hmm	Mar 03 00:04
oiaohm	Maybe IBM wants Novell out way so it can toast SCO.	Mar 03 00:05
MinceR	:)	Mar 03 00:05
oiaohm	Really from IBM point of view Novell started the SCO mess.	Mar 03 00:05
oiaohm	With a deceptive sale to SCO	Mar 03 00:05
oiaohm	Get rid of both companies would be good for IBM.	Mar 03 00:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell May be Going Private, Hedge Fund Has Cash http://ur1.ca/o68b Novell takeover? Need I rename the site?		Mar 03 00:10
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Novell May be Going Private, Hedge Fund Has Cash \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 80.61 KB	Mar 03 00:10
schestowitz	No wonder Novell managers were fleeing	Mar 03 00:12
ianto	oiaohm: How much money do you think that the Linux Foundation are actually making? :S	Mar 03 00:13
oiaohm	Not making could raise simple enough. ianto	Mar 03 00:14
oiaohm	Linux foundation is never short of money to do stuff ianto	Mar 03 00:14
ianto	oiaohm: Sorry as a second language English speaker I don't understand your 1st sentence, elaborate	Mar 03 00:15
ianto	oiaohm: Yeah minor things, I doubt they raise/make more than 20mil/year at all to be honest	Mar 03 00:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Here is the discussion so far about #Novell being bought, potentially, by some rather obscure firm http://ur1.ca/o692 02 23:15:48		Mar 03 00:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 2nd, 2010 .::. Size~: 750.08 KB	Mar 03 00:17
oiaohm	ianto: People forget why the Linux Foundation formed. It formed to pay Linus because he got insane offers of over 1 billion dollar income a year.	Mar 03 00:17
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oiaohm	If linux foundation wanted to raise 2 billion dollars to sort something out they could.	Mar 03 00:18
oiaohm	Most of the time Linux Foundation does not take money. Instead companies employee people Linux foundation finds working on open source who need full time jobs to improve there productivity.	Mar 03 00:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: I'm not sure LF was Created for this reason	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	See OSDL announcement	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	oiaohm: not possible	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	They could not buy NOVEL	Mar 03 00:21
oiaohm	schestowitz: Linux foundation idea first appears in the Linux kernel mailing lists.	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	NOVL	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	It's proprietary	Mar 03 00:21
schestowitz	makes no sense	Mar 03 00:22
schestowitz	And in bed with Ballmer	Mar 03 00:22
schestowitz	oiaohm: foundation attract funds	Mar 03 00:22
oiaohm	Before the OSDL announcement.	Mar 03 00:22
schestowitz	Like X and Mozilla, even Wikipedia	Mar 03 00:22
schestowitz	Wikimedia	Mar 03 00:22
oiaohm	If novell was a big enough threat to the Linux eco system Linux foundation would have a reason.	Mar 03 00:23
oiaohm	And the members of it would most likely chip in to neturalise threat.	Mar 03 00:23
MinceR	if only they bought and liquidated m$	Mar 03 00:23
oiaohm	MS is not weak enough to liquidate yet.	Mar 03 00:24
schestowitz	re http://tech.slashdot.org/story/10/03/01/214246/Google-Acquires-Online-Image-Editing-Tool-Picnik	Mar 03 00:24
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Slashdot Technology Story \| Google Acquires Online Image Editing Tool Picnik .::. Size~: 128.85 KB	Mar 03 00:24
schestowitz	Does MS have an image editor that's decent?	Mar 03 00:24
schestowitz	Around 2006 it pondered competitng with Photoshops	Mar 03 00:25
oiaohm	One thing MS has never made. schestowitz	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	*shop	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	It was called off	Mar 03 00:25
oiaohm	gimp with its old nightmare interface was more usable than MS offering.	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	Google could enable Docs users to draw diagrams online	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	This ought to make Adobe -- not just Microsoft--worry	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	Adobe already makes Web-bsed PS	Mar 03 00:25
schestowitz	MinceR: what about Jobs' gang	Mar 03 00:26
schestowitz	They too use swpays vs Linux	Mar 03 00:26
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schestowitz	To Mac Asay's chagrin	Mar 03 00:26
oiaohm	The purposes of this corporation include promoting, protecting, and standardizing Linux and open source software. << From the Linux foundation bylaws.	Mar 03 00:27
MinceR	schestowitz: i'm not sure, but i suppose we'd quickly see what's up after the end of m$	Mar 03 00:27
oiaohm	People forget part of the Linux foundations existance is protection of open source.	Mar 03 00:27
MinceR	i wonder if crApple would ever seriously try to compete with GNU/Linux, considering how they're staying away from business use cases	Mar 03 00:28
oiaohm	They have attempted business use cases many times. People forget the apple attempts. MinceR	Mar 03 00:29
MinceR	i certainly did	Mar 03 00:29
MinceR	was jobs in charge when those happened?	Mar 03 00:29
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 03 00:29
oiaohm	OS X server that not doing that well.	Mar 03 00:30
MinceR	then it's likely that crApple would have to be liquidated too	Mar 03 00:30
oiaohm	http://www.apple.com/server/macosx/ << guess never seen this. MinceR	Mar 03 00:31
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Apple - Mac OS X Server Snow Leopard .::. Size~: 13.55 KB	Mar 03 00:31
oiaohm	The box is nice	Mar 03 00:31
MinceR	well, i've seen some attempts at servers	Mar 03 00:31
MinceR	but they always seemed to be half-assed	Mar 03 00:31
MinceR	servers aren't necessarily for business, i guess	Mar 03 00:32
oiaohm	It there attempts	Mar 03 00:32
oiaohm	They are designed to provide everything businesses could want.	Mar 03 00:33
oiaohm	But just build around different ie Mac style interfaces.	Mar 03 00:33
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oiaohm	Lacking ADS kinda stuffs the OS X Server since you have to pay 499 for it.	Mar 03 00:34
oiaohm	And Linux with equal function is out there for free.	Mar 03 00:34
MinceR	(flash) (video) (audio) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nej4xJe4Tdg	Mar 03 00:35
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- "Weird Al" Yankovic - Bob .::. Size~: 127.51 KB	Mar 03 00:35
schestowitz	Microsoft wants net tax now	Mar 03 00:36
schestowitz	For 'cleaning' PCs	Mar 03 00:36
schestowitz	Their govt. guy proposes it	Mar 03 00:37
schestowitz	Shameful cronies	Mar 03 00:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] @schestowitz remember that Novell has been bought by obscure firms once, or was it twice? before!		Mar 03 00:38
oiaohm	Really the australian idea is better.	Mar 03 00:42
oiaohm	You are detected running infected machine by by internet connection until you short it out.	Mar 03 00:42
oiaohm	sort	Mar 03 00:42
MinceR	except for the whole censorship business :>	Mar 03 00:43
schestowitz	Conrobocop	Mar 03 00:43
schestowitz	Conrobocop on conroids	Mar 03 00:43
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oiaohm	Even the USA is now looking at regulating the internet.	Mar 03 00:47
oiaohm	All wild wests come to a end at some point.	Mar 03 00:47
MinceR	at least in police states	Mar 03 00:49
oiaohm	No it always does. MinceR	Mar 03 00:49
oiaohm	Its just a question of when.	Mar 03 00:50
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yuhong	On Twitter bots, here is an article on Slashdot:	Mar 03 00:51
yuhong	http://it.slashdot.org/story/09/08/14/1828248/Twitter-Used-To-Control-Botnet-Machines	Mar 03 00:51
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Slashdot IT Story \| Twitter Used To Control Botnet Machines .::. Size~: 132.25 KB	Mar 03 00:51
oiaohm	Bot nets will use anything as there central control.	Mar 03 00:51
yuhong	Yep, but BN mentioned Twitter bots before.	Mar 03 00:52
MinceR	oiaohm: well, our beloved leaders worldwide seem to have realized there was way too much freedom of speech for their taste	Mar 03 00:53
MinceR	so here comes the police state	Mar 03 00:53
oiaohm	Its not exactly that. MinceR	Mar 03 00:53
MinceR	can't have people discuss their ideas freely in a supposed democracy, now can we?	Mar 03 00:53
oiaohm	It crime too much freedom that becomes a problem.	Mar 03 00:54
MinceR	can't let them make their decisions for themselves	Mar 03 00:54
MinceR	yeah, "too much freedom"	Mar 03 00:54
MinceR	too little bleating, going too far out of line	Mar 03 00:54
oiaohm	Same reason why shaffs appear.	Mar 03 00:54
dyfet	"too much freedom" sounds almost orwellian	Mar 03 00:54
yuhong	I know.	Mar 03 00:54
oiaohm	If you give people the means todo anythign without bad outcomes.	Mar 03 00:55
oiaohm	Crime happens.	Mar 03 00:55
MinceR	so we just give the "leaders" the means to do anything because they're perfect characters	Mar 03 00:55
oiaohm	Ie if there was no punishment for stealing why not.	Mar 03 00:55
dyfet	That is because freedom IS responsibility, not greed	Mar 03 00:55
MinceR	oh wait	Mar 03 00:55
MinceR	yeah, the state never steals	Mar 03 00:55
MinceR	like the hungarian government didn't give m$ a lot of tax money, no sir!	Mar 03 00:55
oiaohm	Ie freedom without responsiblity is bad.	Mar 03 00:55
schestowitz	[00:52] <yuhong> Yep, but BN mentioned Twitter bots before.	Mar 03 00:56
schestowitz	We did	Mar 03 00:56
MinceR	apparently the australian government has freedom without responsibility	Mar 03 00:56
schestowitz	it's just message passing	Mar 03 00:56
dyfet	oiaohm: you mean greed without responsibility, ie corporations	Mar 03 00:56
MinceR	that's why they have internet censorship	Mar 03 00:56
schestowitz	Slashdot carries garbage again	Mar 03 00:56
yuhong	Yea, that is what inspires me to mention this in the first place.	Mar 03 00:56
oiaohm	They have to answer for it at the vote. MinceR	Mar 03 00:56
MinceR	oiaohm: unless they manage to brainwash the masses until then.	Mar 03 00:57
MinceR	oiaohm: guess what the control over all channels of information is for.	Mar 03 00:57
yuhong	Italy is particularly bad, BTW.	Mar 03 00:57
dyfet	Freedom is a human birthright, not some revokable right on a piece of paper	Mar 03 00:57
MinceR	oiaohm: brainwash the masses into supporting whatever you want to do and then let them 'vote' for it	Mar 03 00:57
FurnaceBoy	MinceR: awesome weird al video. saw it a while back, nice to enjoy again :)	Mar 03 00:57
MinceR	i'm with dyfet	Mar 03 00:58
FurnaceBoy	oiaohm: there is no vote. both sides are fielded	Mar 03 00:58
MinceR	that's the other issue	Mar 03 00:58
yuhong	And I mention it because recently Google execs was convicted there over a YouTube video on a six-month suspended sentence.	Mar 03 00:58
oiaohm	MinceR: Really the australian media rating system needs fixing. Using the internet to bipass has always been illegal.	Mar 03 00:58
MinceR	when the two major parties are doing the exact same thing	Mar 03 00:58
FurnaceBoy	MinceR: deliberately	Mar 03 00:58
MinceR	and the masses only consider voting for either	Mar 03 00:58
oiaohm	MinceR: how will it get fixed while people bypass.	Mar 03 00:59
MinceR	oiaohm: perhaps these greedy control freaks need to be killed	Mar 03 00:59
MinceR	and if others stand in their place, they need to be killed too	Mar 03 00:59
MinceR	perhaps then we could have a society that wasn't a living hell	Mar 03 00:59
MinceR	i'm sure internet censorship will reach me eventually, just like all the previous idiocies	Mar 03 01:00
FurnaceBoy	our system has been hacked, exploited. we're told it is one thing, the democracy myth, but it is not that thing.	Mar 03 01:00
oiaohm	Every country has a media rating system. MinceR	Mar 03 01:00
schestowitz	FurnaceBoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIrGPKka_qE&feature=grec	Mar 03 01:00
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- Noam Chomsky Comments on the Work of No More Victims .::. Size~: 90.63 KB	Mar 03 01:00
MinceR	oiaohm: the question is who decides whether i can access a given work at all	Mar 03 01:00
MinceR	oiaohm: more free countries only put a recommendation on media, instead of forbidding sales	Mar 03 01:01
oiaohm	Even the USA forbids some. MinceR	Mar 03 01:01
oiaohm	Ie child porn and snuff movies.	Mar 03 01:01
MinceR	the usa is not a "free" country	Mar 03 01:02
MinceR	it's a testing ground for the newest restrictive laws	Mar 03 01:02
oiaohm	Some classes are not allowed anywhere. MinceR	Mar 03 01:02
MinceR	WCT, ACTA, etc.	Mar 03 01:02
oiaohm	Just for the simple fact there production is harmful.	Mar 03 01:02
dyfet	The united states is slowly being converted into one large reservation as far as I am concerned	Mar 03 01:02
MinceR	(and i don't care if they call it a "treaty" or some other bullshit, if it's enforced against me, it's effectively law)	Mar 03 01:03
oiaohm	But australia has some sucky laws when it comes to computer games.	Mar 03 01:03
MinceR	yes, when it comes to computer games	Mar 03 01:03
MinceR	and when it comes to internet access, apparently	Mar 03 01:03
oiaohm	Ie no nudity at all there is no rating high enough on Australia computer games.	Mar 03 01:03
MinceR	and probably when it comes to movies	Mar 03 01:03
FurnaceBoy	schestowitz: sorry got distracted with this. hadn't seen it before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_TfBbR6L0M&NR=1	Mar 03 01:03
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- "Weird Al" Yankovic - Canadian Idiot .::. Size~: 141.2 KB	Mar 03 01:03
oiaohm	Moves are not too bad we have upto R18+ MinceR	Mar 03 01:03
oiaohm	Basically if it a movie and it acceptable by most of the world it can get in.	Mar 03 01:04
oiaohm	Computer game your screwed.	Mar 03 01:04
oiaohm	Basically our rating system needs fixing. And that will not happen while people bypass.	Mar 03 01:04
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MinceR	yes, your laws need fixing	Mar 03 01:05
MinceR	and Jesusland's laws and practices need fixing before they force more of their stupid crap on the country i live in.	Mar 03 01:05
oiaohm	Basically from a free speech point of view Australia not too bad. From free production of media its not great.	Mar 03 01:06
FurnaceBoy	schestowitz: watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJBBdoZVk9Q&feature=related	Mar 03 01:06
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- Cole Miller talks about No More Victims .::. Size~: 137.6 KB	Mar 03 01:06
MinceR	internet censorship is "not too bad"?	Mar 03 01:06
MinceR	censorship of video games is "not too bad"?	Mar 03 01:06
MinceR	how much censorship would be "too bad" for you?	Mar 03 01:07
oiaohm	The internet censorship is targeted against unrate able content.	Mar 03 01:07
dyfet	When people trade responsibility to others, such as a government, they loose both...in this Australia is a perfect example	Mar 03 01:07
MinceR	do you consider yourself an adult, able to think for yourself?	Mar 03 01:07
MinceR	your government obviously doesn't.	Mar 03 01:07
dyfet	Mincer: exactly	Mar 03 01:07
dyfet	freedom is responsibility, and when you surrender responsibility, you loose both...	Mar 03 01:08
MinceR	do you think such a government believes the idea that it's responsible to adults?	Mar 03 01:08
MinceR	do you think such a government really cares one way or the other what voters think or want or vote for?	Mar 03 01:08
dyfet	I'm with Mincer ;)	Mar 03 01:08
oiaohm	You are aware that all ratings can be disputed.	Mar 03 01:09
oiaohm	The biggest problem I have with the internet filter is the idea to keep the list secret.	Mar 03 01:09
oiaohm	Because that prevents the normal blocked work dispute process.	Mar 03 01:09
MinceR	what if an adult doesn't want to be filtered?	Mar 03 01:10
dyfet	So because you feel you cannot be responsible for yourself as an adult, you feel others should be denied freedom as well?	Mar 03 01:10
MinceR	and how is "free speech" supposed to work if it's stopped from reaching others by "filtering"?	Mar 03 01:11
dyfet	speech that is airbrushed out of existence because it is unpopular like an abandoned politburo official...	Mar 03 01:12
dyfet	It could be argued that freedom of speech is nessisary precisely to protect unpopular speech, since popular speech consistent with the party line is certainly never in danger	Mar 03 01:13
dyfet	filtering eliminates that	Mar 03 01:13
oiaohm	Now you go out in public rules exist right.	Mar 03 01:13
oiaohm	That you have to follow or face out comes.	Mar 03 01:13
dyfet	leaving a flat and dead culture and society in it's place	Mar 03 01:13
oiaohm	If you don't like the rules you have to dispute them right.	Mar 03 01:14
MinceR	yeah, if i speak my mind, i face that it might affect the thinking of others	Mar 03 01:14
MinceR	the horror!	Mar 03 01:14
oiaohm	Not just break them because you can then say to the judge	Mar 03 01:14
oiaohm	the law was invalid.	Mar 03 01:14
oiaohm	It don't get you far.	Mar 03 01:14
oiaohm	Filter or throw people in jail what is better.	Mar 03 01:14
oiaohm	Current laws they could just jail.	Mar 03 01:15
MinceR	can you only think in terms of totalitarianism?	Mar 03 01:15
MinceR	silence people, throw them in jail, kill them	Mar 03 01:15
MinceR	no other option?	Mar 03 01:15
oiaohm	I just stated the laws that are currently in place.	Mar 03 01:15
oiaohm	Having unrated content is an jailable offence.	Mar 03 01:15
MinceR	how do you propose people should dispute the rules if all dissent is silenced?	Mar 03 01:15
MinceR	020819 < oiaohm> Having unrated content is an jailable offence.	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	that's because your law is broken	Mar 03 01:16
dyfet	that is known as an illegitimate society	Mar 03 01:16
oiaohm	Australian law if you want to complain about the law you cannot be jailed.	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	apparently your laws that are currently in place are typical of dictatorships.	Mar 03 01:16
oiaohm	Simple fact disputing the law is protected.	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	if you want to complain about the law you cannot be jailed -- therefore you're censored instead	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	how convenient!	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	you can speak all you want, nobody will hear you	Mar 03 01:16
MinceR	and so the abusive laws stay in place forever	Mar 03 01:17
oiaohm	No censoring text complainging about the law is a jailable offence to who ever does it.	Mar 03 01:17
MinceR	and the only opinion that will be heard is how great those laws are	Mar 03 01:17
schestowitz	Nuclear propaganda: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJPQw-zuFzY&feature=grec	Mar 03 01:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- 1950's Cold War Propaganda - Bikini Atoll Documentary .::. Size~: 124.99 KB	Mar 03 01:17
oiaohm	So legally protected MinceR	Mar 03 01:17
MinceR	legally protected and legally silenced?	Mar 03 01:17
oiaohm	No	Mar 03 01:17
oiaohm	this is where you are wrong.	Mar 03 01:18
oiaohm	the law applies to images.	Mar 03 01:18
oiaohm	Not text or words.	Mar 03 01:18
MinceR	and images can't tell opinions?	Mar 03 01:18
oiaohm	To dispute a law does not need images.	Mar 03 01:18
MinceR	what if there are images showing the crimes the government and the authorities are committing?	Mar 03 01:18
oiaohm	That is legally protected.	Mar 03 01:18
MinceR	and since when does the Great Firewall of Australia only affect images?	Mar 03 01:19
oiaohm	Unrated content can be displayed in a court room.	Mar 03 01:19
dyfet	By the same government that asserts to arbitrarily rate images?	Mar 03 01:19
MinceR	oiaohm: so does all your disputes about how a society should be run occur in a court room?	Mar 03 01:19
oiaohm	And can be cenored to be displayed anywhere else	Mar 03 01:19
MinceR	wow, that's helpful	Mar 03 01:19
oiaohm	By our laws it should be handled in a court room.	Mar 03 01:20
MinceR	"here's the photo evidence i took: [censored] now you can all see for yourselves!"	Mar 03 01:20
MinceR	then your country has no idea how democracy works	Mar 03 01:20
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Chips_B_Malroy	http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9164400/Group_wants_Microsoft_s_browser_ballot_to_go_global	Mar 03 01:21
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Group wants Microsoft's browser ballot to go global .::. Size~: 126.44 KB	Mar 03 01:21
oiaohm	Now if you have attempted to display it to a court and court fails to act MinceR	Mar 03 01:21
MinceR	oiaohm: what if it's a dispute of which party is better to vote for?	Mar 03 01:22
oiaohm	Next bit of our law can kick in. So protecting the unrated content from being blocked.	Mar 03 01:22
MinceR	(assuming that they don't say and do the exact same thing, of course)	Mar 03 01:22
MinceR	(or that it's legal and possible for a third party to run)	Mar 03 01:22
oiaohm	Basically we have a multi layer law.	Mar 03 01:22
oiaohm	Each piece triggers different things.	Mar 03 01:22
MinceR	i suppose your laws aren't made in the court room	Mar 03 01:22
oiaohm	They can be. MinceR	Mar 03 01:23
MinceR	but not typically or exclusively	Mar 03 01:23
oiaohm	It not exclusive	Mar 03 01:23
oiaohm	Laws can be struck off the books by a court.	Mar 03 01:23
oiaohm	And once struck off ellected officals cannot put them back.	Mar 03 01:24
MinceR	can laws be discussed at all before they're signed into law?	Mar 03 01:24
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oiaohm	So yes if australian public are mad enough over the internet censorship laws they could take it to court and get rid of them.	Mar 03 01:25
MinceR	can the (supposedly) elected officials get input from the people they're supposed to represent?	Mar 03 01:25
MinceR	or can that only happen in a courtroom?	Mar 03 01:25
oiaohm	Laws are discussed before they come law.	Mar 03 01:25
MinceR	if they aren't mad enough over them then they deserve all the censorship they get	Mar 03 01:25
MinceR	oiaohm: and how do you discuss laws without freedom of speech?	Mar 03 01:26
oiaohm	Our final level against goverment created laws is applead to the queen/governer general to get the goverment kicked. out.	Mar 03 01:26
MinceR	that must be a great relief	Mar 03 01:26
oiaohm	discussing the laws is protected MinceR	Mar 03 01:26
dyfet	well, no, Mincer, no human being deserves to be treated as subhuman, or a child...which is precisely what such laws do	Mar 03 01:26
oiaohm	Anyone attempting to stop that can be jailed.	Mar 03 01:26
MinceR	dyfet: i guess they have the freedom to live the way they want to, as long as they consent to it in an informed way	Mar 03 01:27
oiaohm	The photo graphic media laws were created to prevent people profiting from other peoples suffering.	Mar 03 01:27
MinceR	dyfet: if they want to build a totalitarian dictatorship for themselves to live in, who can stop them?	Mar 03 01:27
MinceR	dyfet: i just really hope i won't get caught in this fad (yeah, fat chance)	Mar 03 01:27
dyfet	you are assuming they have informed consent	Mar 03 01:27
MinceR	i'm assuming this is how much they cared to be informed	Mar 03 01:28
MinceR	nobody can force them to take the effort to become informed.	Mar 03 01:28
oiaohm	MinceR: you assume the internet ceneror ship blocks free speech.	Mar 03 01:28
schestowitz	Watch how the military exposed to radiation its own people: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z29H_AX-jTs&NR=1	Mar 03 01:28
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- BIKINI ATOLL 1946 .::. Size~: 108.22 KB	Mar 03 01:28
schestowitz	Same with France	Mar 03 01:28
schestowitz	As revealed by a recent report from APF, IIRC	Mar 03 01:28
MinceR	they just bought all the "all that evil pr0n and violent images must be stopped at all cost!" bullshit	Mar 03 01:29
oiaohm	Basically if you posted a text based website with all rateable images. Talking against the law there if it was blocked who ever did would have broken laws.	Mar 03 01:29
MinceR	oiaohm: that's what censorship is -- blocking free speech.	Mar 03 01:29
MinceR	this is a matter of principle.	Mar 03 01:29
oiaohm	Basically you are perfectly free to talk about it.	Mar 03 01:29
oiaohm	Just you don't have the free use of images.	Mar 03 01:29
oiaohm	As I said the biggest issue I had was the idea of keeping the list secret.	Mar 03 01:30
MinceR	i guess if someone doesn't want freedom for himself then he can't be helped.	Mar 03 01:31
Chips_B_Malroy	http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-02/microsoft-says-operating-expenses-may-rise-5-in-2011-update2-.html	Mar 03 01:31
oiaohm	So making it hard to prove when the core australian law of protection of talking against the law has being breached.	Mar 03 01:31
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft Says Operating Expenses May Rise 5% in 2011 (Update3) - BusinessWeek .::. Size~: 46.28 KB	Mar 03 01:31
oiaohm	There is a court case over that fact already lined up MinceR	Mar 03 01:31
dyfet	Mincer: in one sense that is true, or at least the inverse is very true, that those who do want freedom and have it denied are not allowed to be helped	Mar 03 01:32
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MinceR	dyfet: the problem is: what if a tiny minority (like me) wants to live free among a majority that doesn't value freedom for themselves (the mass of idiots on this planet)?	Mar 03 01:33
oiaohm	So dyfet and Mincer you are fine with images like child porn and the like being displayed by people for profit. Images that long term harm people in there production.	Mar 03 01:33
MinceR	oiaohm: afaik the problem with child porn is not the content of the image but the means of their production	Mar 03 01:34
MinceR	oiaohm: therefore the means of their production should be attacked, not freedom of speech.	Mar 03 01:34
oiaohm	Both are attacked MinceR	Mar 03 01:34
MinceR	oiaohm: so they're throwing the baby out with the bathwater? and you're saying that's good?	Mar 03 01:34
dyfet	Mincer: well, I can tell you, from the experience of the American Indian, that you can expect violence by and continued cruelty from that kind of majority	Mar 03 01:34
MinceR	dyfet: yeah, that's what i got in all my life	Mar 03 01:35
oiaohm	What happens in the usa is lets use software to make people appear young. So we can make images that are the same as child porn legally. MinceR	Mar 03 01:35
oiaohm	Still does not change the triggered harm.	Mar 03 01:35
dyfet	Mincer: where you are punished or killed simply for living your lifeways...or trying to live in freedom, as a rough analogue	Mar 03 01:35
MinceR	how so?	Mar 03 01:35
MinceR	oiaohm: whom does image editing harm?	Mar 03 01:36
oiaohm	Not exactly editing.	Mar 03 01:36
_goblin	oiaohm, in the UK its an offence.....Psuedo indecent photographs.	Mar 03 01:36
oiaohm	Runnign reverse ageing forumallys.	Mar 03 01:36
MinceR	so, whom does image not-exactly-editing harm?	Mar 03 01:36
MinceR	does it turn the people who were photographed into children or something?	Mar 03 01:36
oiaohm	But it does have a effect on the people viewing them.	Mar 03 01:37
MinceR	or perhaps making photos of someone captures their soul in the photo, which is then harmed?	Mar 03 01:37
MinceR	well, that's kind of the point of viewing images	Mar 03 01:37
MinceR	if it had no effect on the viewer, then what's the point?	Mar 03 01:37
MinceR	actually, it's kind of the definition of viewing images	Mar 03 01:37
MinceR	if it doesn't effect the viewer's nervous system then he can't see the image	Mar 03 01:38
oiaohm	It called desensitization.	Mar 03 01:38
oiaohm	Its a natural part of the human mind. MinceR	Mar 03 01:38
MinceR	do you honestly believe that a vague notion such as "desensitization" is worth more than the idea of free speech?	Mar 03 01:38
MinceR	are those your priorities?	Mar 03 01:38
dyfet	oiaohm: if you choose to view it, perhaps, but since you say you do not wish to, obviously you would not, so I do not see how it would harm or "desensitive" you....	Mar 03 01:39
oiaohm	MinceR: you are saying vague. Mil use it in training soliders for a reason.	Mar 03 01:39
MinceR	i suppose they can't use free speech in training soldiers	Mar 03 01:39
Chips_B_Malroy	Hey Goblin> check your email	Mar 03 01:39
oiaohm	You can take a person who by nature would not kill because they would freese.	Mar 03 01:40
MinceR	and killing is always evil, right?	Mar 03 01:40
oiaohm	Train them enough they will kill without thinking due to desensitazation to it.	Mar 03 01:40
dyfet	Mincer: I guess he means if child porn were out there, it would magically appear on every tv and everyone would be magically "forced" to watch it......	Mar 03 01:40
MinceR	yeah, they'll just kill in every waking moment because they become unable to do anything else, right?	Mar 03 01:40
oiaohm	Not everyone mind is as weak to it.	Mar 03 01:40
oiaohm	To the same ammount.	Mar 03 01:40
MinceR	dyfet: their puerile minds would not be able to look away!	Mar 03 01:41
dyfet	Mincer: so oiahohm's entire argument is he cannot trust himself, hence he cannot trust others to trust themselves either...??	Mar 03 01:41
MinceR	lol	Mar 03 01:41
oiaohm	Your arguements are that damage don't happen due to images.	Mar 03 01:42
oiaohm	Even that its been documented for years.	Mar 03 01:42
MinceR	no, my argument is that the flow of information by itself is not evil	Mar 03 01:42
MinceR	and that freedom of speech is a prerequisite for democracy	Mar 03 01:42
oiaohm	To be correct over a 200 years.	Mar 03 01:42
dyfet	oiaohm: you mean the ones you would "not" view even if available, but even so their being available harms you?	Mar 03 01:42
oiaohm	Problem is you might not. But the person who is effected by them may harm you.	Mar 03 01:43
oiaohm	That is where your ideas fail. For the protection of the whole particular things are bad to be come tollerent to.	Mar 03 01:44
MinceR	does it get any more vague and tenuous than that?	Mar 03 01:44
oiaohm	Its not vague.	Mar 03 01:44
MinceR	it is	Mar 03 01:45
oiaohm	There are enough documented cases of it happening.	Mar 03 01:45
MinceR	why doesn't australia offer to join china?	Mar 03 01:45
MinceR	you seem to think alike	Mar 03 01:45
oiaohm	Australia is not blocking freespeech.	Mar 03 01:46
oiaohm	They are block free trade in images.	Mar 03 01:46
MinceR	where do you draw the line?	Mar 03 01:46
dyfet	Those are the very same arguments China uses...	Mar 03 01:46
oiaohm	Two completely different things.	Mar 03 01:46
MinceR	yeah, china says they aren't blocking free speech either	Mar 03 01:46
dyfet	And they also say they do not block free speech ;)	Mar 03 01:46
oiaohm	Words and text don't alter humans reactions to things.	Mar 03 01:46
MinceR	the official party line says they're the most free country in the world	Mar 03 01:46
MinceR	that's what they all say	Mar 03 01:46
oiaohm	pictures on the other hand can.	Mar 03 01:46
MinceR	oiaohm: that's bullshit	Mar 03 01:47
oiaohm	This is part of our make up.	Mar 03 01:47
oiaohm	So you wish to dispute mil training and all the research into it MinceR	Mar 03 01:47
MinceR	ideas have been conveyed via language ever since language existed	Mar 03 01:47
MinceR	oiaohm: so you wish to pretend that the entirety of human existence is military training	Mar 03 01:47
oiaohm	How to alter human responsces by images is well documented.	Mar 03 01:48
Chips_B_Malroy	sublimal?	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	and learning from text is not well documented, then, i guess	Mar 03 01:48
oiaohm	Not exaclty sublimal	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	neither is debate in speech or written word	Mar 03 01:48
dyfet	Hmm, best cover your women also then, like in Saudi Arabia....	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	well, i'm certainly not altering your responses, that's true	Mar 03 01:48
dyfet	Lest Australian men go wild...	Mar 03 01:48
oiaohm	The more you see something the more tollerent to it you become.	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	but perhaps it isn't a good example	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	there's nothing wrong with that	Mar 03 01:48
oiaohm	That is the way the human brain works.	Mar 03 01:48
MinceR	it means you can remain functional regardless of the images they try to shock you with	Mar 03 01:49
Chips_B_Malroy	you refer to military training by USA with XBox360's then?	Mar 03 01:49
MinceR	you can still think about their contents	Mar 03 01:49
MinceR	and that's all that matters	Mar 03 01:49
oiaohm	So a person who cannot stand the view of blood show them blood enough they will at some point tollerate it.	Mar 03 01:49
oiaohm	Same with fear of spiders and the like can be treated the same way.	Mar 03 01:49
oiaohm	Basically you can remove a person barriors slowly to the point they will do something they would have never done.	Mar 03 01:50
MinceR	and fainting when you see blood is supposed to be a good thing in your book?	Mar 03 01:50
oiaohm	No MinceR the effect is used to treat people with problems like that.	Mar 03 01:50
dyfet	Living in a safe pretend state generated world where nothing bad ever happens...	Mar 03 01:50
oiaohm	But the effect does not just stop at that.	Mar 03 01:50
oiaohm	Sexual prefence and other things can be altered to a point.	Mar 03 01:50
MinceR	whom does it harm to make someone able to function in the presence of certain images?	Mar 03 01:51
MinceR	no, sexual preference can't be altered that way	Mar 03 01:51
Chips_B_Malroy	Oiaohm> the object of the military is in many ways to create soldiers than carry out orders, almost like a robot	Mar 03 01:51
MinceR	there was a lot of trying	Mar 03 01:51
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oiaohm	To a point MinceR	Mar 03 01:51
oiaohm	The age of perfence can be moved.	Mar 03 01:51
MinceR	and yes, information can be conveyed via images	Mar 03 01:51
MinceR	so it can be used to debate and present ideas	Mar 03 01:51
MinceR	it's no less evil than doing the same in text	Mar 03 01:51
oiaohm	Again that is documented. MinceR	Mar 03 01:52
MinceR	tell that to homosexuals	Mar 03 01:52
dyfet	Mincer: maybe he's afraid he will be "turned gay" if he sees a gay pride parade...	Mar 03 01:52
Chips_B_Malroy	military is now using xbox360's for some of its training	Mar 03 01:52
MinceR	tell them about your new, supposedly documented method to make them heterosexual	Mar 03 01:52
MinceR	dyfet: lol	Mar 03 01:52
MinceR	Chips_B_Malroy: what do they do in the case of RRoD?	Mar 03 01:53
MinceR	maybe that's the state in which they use it, though	Mar 03 01:53
MinceR	using a dead xbox360 as a weapon	Mar 03 01:53
oiaohm	Documentation says you can change the age prefrence of sexual partners. MinceR	Mar 03 01:53
oiaohm	Ie to a point change of sexual perfence.	Mar 03 01:54
Chips_B_Malroy	MinceR> RROD is not a problem for the Military. The USA gov will just borrow more money and replace it	Mar 03 01:54
oiaohm	Total cannot be done. MinceR	Mar 03 01:54
MinceR	Chips_B_Malroy: as long as they're produced at all :>	Mar 03 01:54
MinceR	oiaohm: so what does that "to a point" mean, then?	Mar 03 01:54
oiaohm	Color hair age mostly surface appearance things of the attraction. MinceR	Mar 03 01:55
Chips_B_Malroy	MinceR> the day they stop producing the Xbox consoles, is a good day for mankind	Mar 03 01:55
MinceR	oiaohm: and that's evil how?	Mar 03 01:55
MinceR	oiaohm: it's a simple matter of taste then.	Mar 03 01:55
_goblin	Right, off now....	Mar 03 01:56
oiaohm	You taste is not formed in isolation. MinceR	Mar 03 01:56
_goblin	Smoke me a kipper I'll be back for breakfast.	Mar 03 01:56
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, check your email	Mar 03 01:56
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oiaohm	What you have been and will be exposed to will set it MinceR	Mar 03 01:56
MinceR	oiaohm: nobody's taste is formed in isolation	Mar 03 01:56
MinceR	oiaohm: that doesn't mean that being baited into seeing images i don't want will result in the sudden appearance of some sort of sexual aberration in my mind	Mar 03 01:57
oiaohm	The problem is it not sudden.	Mar 03 01:57
dyfet	Some of the most twisted and sick people were the Victorians who also worked hard to censor all aspects of their lives and images of society that were "negative"	Mar 03 01:57
MinceR	oiaohm: if it is not sudden then it was by conscious choice of the individual to affect himself	Mar 03 01:58
dyfet	But I guess that is safer for oiaohm :)	Mar 03 01:58
oiaohm	You are talking years of gradual effects. MinceR So slight the person that it is happing to does not notice.	Mar 03 01:58
MinceR	yeah, i wouldn't notice if child pr0n popped up on all sorts of websites	Mar 03 01:58
MinceR	oh, wait	Mar 03 01:58
MinceR	but i guess once again the issue is that you don't consider yourself to be adult and so you want your government to make decisions for you	Mar 03 01:59
Chips_B_Malroy	Speaking of twisted, anyone see the Dorian Gray movie?	Mar 03 01:59
MinceR	and then you claim that you supervise your government and that your votes affect it	Mar 03 01:59
MinceR	will you then ask your government to decide whom to vote for?	Mar 03 01:59
dyfet	the way a dog claims he controls his leash....	Mar 03 02:00
MinceR	or will you suddenly grow up for a day?	Mar 03 02:00
MinceR	otherwise, you could just install a client-side filter by your own power	Mar 03 02:00
oiaohm	MinceR: Most people don't notice there porn viewing normally starts off in one area and drifts in particular directions over time based on the images they have been viewing.	Mar 03 02:00
MinceR	without forcing a Great Firewall over an entire country	Mar 03 02:00
Chips_B_Malroy	They done a lot of censurship of the web down under	Mar 03 02:00
oiaohm	So its partly enforcement that more people don't drift to child porn.	Mar 03 02:01
Chips_B_Malroy	not that its a whole lot better here	Mar 03 02:01
MinceR	so we're seeing that a system that's more suited to censoring opinions is installed instead of one that's suited for controlling one's own habits	Mar 03 02:01
MinceR	under a false pretense	Mar 03 02:01
MinceR	you don't see anything suspicious here, do you?	Mar 03 02:01
dyfet	if you dont trust yourself, oiaohm, please, feel free to censor yourself, but don't censor others	Mar 03 02:02
MinceR	it would only take a single glance at what the chinese do	Mar 03 02:02
Chips_B_Malroy	once you start down the road to censorship, even for good reasons, they will find other things that need to be censored	Mar 03 02:02
Chips_B_Malroy	where does it end?	Mar 03 02:02
oiaohm	dyfet: Its not that I don't trust myself. I don't trust others because a lot of people will not notice there changes.	Mar 03 02:03
Chips_B_Malroy	it was more than just child porn being cenored in Australia	Mar 03 02:03
MinceR	yeah, a lot of people aren't adults and can't be trusted to make decisions for themselves	Mar 03 02:03
Chips_B_Malroy	where does the list stop?	Mar 03 02:03
MinceR	and somehow all the responsible adults happen to be concentrated in the government!	Mar 03 02:03
Chips_B_Malroy	exactly	Mar 03 02:03
MinceR	because their actions sure show how mature they are, don't they?	Mar 03 02:03
dyfet	Chips_B_MalroyL where indeed...	Mar 03 02:03
Chips_B_Malroy	lets see, pirate's bay, block em	Mar 03 02:04
oiaohm	So you think you could not have your reactions to things altered. MinceR	Mar 03 02:04
Chips_B_Malroy	maybe someday, boycott novell	Mar 03 02:04
oiaohm	Without you noticing. MinceR	Mar 03 02:04
MinceR	i think i'd notice if some change was afoot	Mar 03 02:04
FurnaceBoy	Chips_B_Malroy: ha, i was about to say the same thing	Mar 03 02:04
MinceR	and i do exert rational control	Mar 03 02:04
dyfet	Mincer: yeah, trust the state to do ALL your thinking for you....;)	Mar 03 02:04
MinceR	also, i don't watch pr0n all day	Mar 03 02:05
FurnaceBoy	MinceR: you should try it!	Mar 03 02:05
dyfet	lol	Mar 03 02:05
FurnaceBoy	before you knock it!	Mar 03 02:05
MinceR	lol	Mar 03 02:05
MinceR	oiaohm: and i don't trust any government to watch for things like that anyway	Mar 03 02:06
oiaohm	Items like pirate bay getting people to take part in something people could currently be jailed for. Site like boycott Novell would always be fine.	Mar 03 02:06
dyfet	Well, according to oiahohm, you must already be dangerous and locked up or shot, furnaceboy ;)	Mar 03 02:06
MinceR	who knows what sort of aberration would they like me to have?	Mar 03 02:06
MinceR	oiaohm: no, BN wouldn't always be fine	Mar 03 02:07
FurnaceBoy	oiaohm: "would always be fine" ??	Mar 03 02:07
FurnaceBoy	oiaohm: can you explain that a bit?	Mar 03 02:07
xfcu	hi	Mar 03 02:07
MinceR	oiaohm: once the system is in place, all it takes is the action of a single corrupt individual to "accidentally" block BN	Mar 03 02:07
MinceR	"oops"	Mar 03 02:07
oiaohm	A leaks site here go blocked and the goverment had to restore and pay damages. MinceR	Mar 03 02:07
FurnaceBoy	MinceR: or not even one individual	Mar 03 02:07
FurnaceBoy	MinceR: it can be a corrupt policy or bad law. much harder to revoke.	Mar 03 02:08
MinceR	oiaohm: as opposed to client-side filtering, where such changes can't be applied globally	Mar 03 02:08
Chips_B_Malroy	oiaohm> while I mostly agree with you, still, do you want the gov to have more powers than the founding fathers (in the USA of course) gave them?	Mar 03 02:08
Chips_B_Malroy	they are too powerful already	Mar 03 02:08
MinceR	oiaohm: also, next time we'd hear your government (and you) argue that a certain other class of sites should be censored, and how fortunate that the system is already in place, it costs nothing!	Mar 03 02:08
FurnaceBoy	MinceR++	Mar 03 02:08
FurnaceBoy	it's a slippery slope indeed.	Mar 03 02:08
oiaohm	There was a little catch australian goverment already tried client side filtering.	Mar 03 02:09
MinceR	it's much worse than a slippery slope	Mar 03 02:09
dyfet	My people know governments make many promises...	Mar 03 02:09
FurnaceBoy	one could look at the history of book censorship -- alive and well in the USA	Mar 03 02:09
MinceR	it's handing the government the gun with which to kill your independent thought	Mar 03 02:09
oiaohm	Guess what kids more computer skilled than parernets so uninstalled the filter.	Mar 03 02:09
oiaohm	Client side is not a option if it is to work.	Mar 03 02:09
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MinceR	yeah, if patents can't use computers then the government will have to control them for everyone	Mar 03 02:10
Chips_B_Malroy	BN causes many to become informed about what mulitnational corporatioins are doing, in concert with govs (acta as example), You think they would not get around to blocking this site someday?	Mar 03 02:10
MinceR	oiaohm: so why don't you give the government root access to your computers and let them change the root password?	Mar 03 02:10
oiaohm	Part of the filter is owner of ISP account controlled.	Mar 03 02:10
MinceR	part.	Mar 03 02:10
Chips_B_Malroy	if no checks put upon them	Mar 03 02:10
MinceR	and part of it applies to everyone.	Mar 03 02:10
MinceR	also, the filter applies to all machines and all users on that LAN.	Mar 03 02:11
oiaohm	MinceR: by law if police takes you machine here you already cannot refuse to hand over password.	Mar 03 02:11
MinceR	that's a different issue	Mar 03 02:11
oiaohm	Goverment here does not want control of your machine.	Mar 03 02:11
oiaohm	No interest in it.	Mar 03 02:11
Chips_B_Malroy	Censorship, first its about protecting people, then its about he money.	Mar 03 02:12
Chips_B_Malroy	thats where it stops	Mar 03 02:12
dyfet	True, just the person behind the machine...	Mar 03 02:12
dyfet	It is about controlling people	Mar 03 02:12
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 03 02:12
dyfet	What they think, what they can learn, what they are allowed to express	Mar 03 02:12
Chips_B_Malroy	its about the money and the power. Look at CHina	Mar 03 02:12
Chips_B_Malroy	Look at Bing, MS	Mar 03 02:13
dyfet	CBM, thats the motivation ultimately	Mar 03 02:13
oiaohm	You are aware that all the filtering bit in Australia started by the people owning the machines requesting a internet filter that works.	Mar 03 02:13
MinceR	030404 < oiaohm> No interest in it.	Mar 03 02:13
MinceR	yet.	Mar 03 02:13
oiaohm	Client side simple does not work.	Mar 03 02:13
oiaohm	Server side were it harder to tamper with does.	Mar 03 02:13
MinceR	oiaohm: do you remember the first concept of Palladium?	Mar 03 02:13
Chips_B_Malroy	The filtering was already abused there	Mar 03 02:13
MinceR	client side does work if the user has a clue.	Mar 03 02:13
MinceR	it doesn't take much	Mar 03 02:13
Chips_B_Malroy	proxy	Mar 03 02:14
oiaohm	Palladium can result in machine being rendered useless.	Mar 03 02:14
MinceR	say, you use a router with a content filter, keep the passwords (including the one you authenticate to the ISP with) to yourself	Mar 03 02:14
oiaohm	So yes stops tampering at what price.	Mar 03 02:14
Chips_B_Malroy	windows can render a machine useless too	Mar 03 02:14
MinceR	the only way the hosts on the LAN can get online is via the router	Mar 03 02:14
MinceR	which filters	Mar 03 02:14
MinceR	and is secured by passwords the parents keep secure	Mar 03 02:15
MinceR	end of story.	Mar 03 02:15
oiaohm	Again not being produces in volume most of the public can afford.	Mar 03 02:15
MinceR	as for means on the network to get around the proxy -- guess what, those work on the Great Firewall, too	Mar 03 02:15
oiaohm	Simplest and fast way is place it in the ISP.	Mar 03 02:15
MinceR	oiaohm: i thought there was a government moving the threads here	Mar 03 02:15
MinceR	one could imagine that they could arrange for mass production	Mar 03 02:16
dyfet	Hmm, this oiaohm seems to think in "absolutes"...	Mar 03 02:16
oiaohm	Also this makes simpler to keep current.	Mar 03 02:16
MinceR	but i guess they can only order a Great Firewall	Mar 03 02:16
MinceR	not something that isn't designed to be abused against the population	Mar 03 02:16
dyfet	Just an observation...	Mar 03 02:16
oiaohm	No each ISP will be responsable for there own domain in the australian system.	Mar 03 02:16
MinceR	oiaohm: also, the ISP could implement it in an optional way	Mar 03 02:16
oiaohm	And will have the right to dispute anything on the list.	Mar 03 02:16
MinceR	there's absolutely no reason to force it on everyone.	Mar 03 02:16
oiaohm	If the master list idea drops off.	Mar 03 02:17
oiaohm	The law forcing ISPs to provide the option most likely will still go threw.	Mar 03 02:17
Chips_B_Malroy	didn't they try to keep the list secret first?	Mar 03 02:17
MinceR	oiaohm: can you explain why the ISP-side filtering can't be optional, with opt-in?	Mar 03 02:17
oiaohm	Most of the ISP filtering put up is.	Mar 03 02:18
oiaohm	Small sections like cutting out virus infected sides and trade in illegal items was not.	Mar 03 02:18
MinceR	oiaohm: can you explain why some of it isn't?	Mar 03 02:18
Chips_B_Malroy	So how much different is it if China or Australia does it?	Mar 03 02:19
oiaohm	sides/sites	Mar 03 02:19
oiaohm	Now if the list was public I would have and not much problem with it. Most of it was perfectly sane.	Mar 03 02:19
MinceR	it shouldn't even be legal for the ISP to do filtering the user can't opt out of.	Mar 03 02:19
Chips_B_Malroy	ah, still secret	Mar 03 02:20
MinceR	that's not what ISPs are for.	Mar 03 02:20
MinceR	oiaohm: apparently you don't have problems with it	Mar 03 02:20
oiaohm	A few people who had there sites breached and used as bot masters were on there even that they had recovered there sites.	Mar 03 02:20
MinceR	here you are, arguing for this abusive system.	Mar 03 02:20
oiaohm	I do have a problem with the idea of a hidden list.	Mar 03 02:20
Chips_B_Malroy	secret filter list, is because they (gov) are filtering something they should not, or have plans to do that in the future	Mar 03 02:20
MinceR	oiaohm: and you have no problem with the idea that such a hidden list could be turned on at any time.	Mar 03 02:21
MinceR	if, say, the government decided they don't want the voters to receive ACTA leaks.	Mar 03 02:21
oiaohm	Really any hidden list if it exists has to be told to the public by law.	Mar 03 02:21
MinceR	(which shouldn't be allowed to discussed in secret anyway)	Mar 03 02:21
oiaohm	Even if it contents are hidden.	Mar 03 02:22
MinceR	so there's a tiny little hole in that mess you call your law?	Mar 03 02:22
Chips_B_Malroy	not the same as showing the list, is it?	Mar 03 02:22
MinceR	not quite the same	Mar 03 02:22
oiaohm	Yep a tiny little hole that need patching.	Mar 03 02:22
Chips_B_Malroy	lol	Mar 03 02:22
MinceR	"oh, and by the way, there are a few things we're hiding from you. it's for your own good honest!"	Mar 03 02:22
oiaohm	That hidden lists when it comes to cenoring can exist.	Mar 03 02:22
MinceR	oiaohm: i think hu jintao could help you patch those tiny little holes just fine.	Mar 03 02:23
Chips_B_Malroy	most of the countries, most likely already have these lists, just the govs not telling u	Mar 03 02:23
MinceR	they don't even need to do much propaganda, apparently	Mar 03 02:23
oiaohm	Yep lot of countries just remove stuff from the root DNS servers.	Mar 03 02:23
MinceR	yes, a lot of countries perpetuate abuses against free speech.	Mar 03 02:24
oiaohm	Basically we all know it will happen.	Mar 03 02:24
oiaohm	But I want to done in a open and truthful way.	Mar 03 02:24
MinceR	yes, they do it because they can	Mar 03 02:24
Chips_B_Malroy	MinceR> hu hintao has MS to help them with the great firewall	Mar 03 02:24
oiaohm	Ie we are blocking X	Mar 03 02:24
oiaohm	With why.	Mar 03 02:24
MinceR	oiaohm: yet here you are arguing that your government is mature and responsible	Mar 03 02:24
MinceR	oiaohm: while admitting that they aren't	Mar 03 02:24
MinceR	oiaohm: i really don't understand you	Mar 03 02:24
oiaohm	You are saying filtering is bad. So they cannot do it. So in affect you will not know what they are doing.	Mar 03 02:25
MinceR	nope, i'm not saying "i don't want to know what filtering they're doing"	Mar 03 02:25
oiaohm	I want to know what they are doing. I accept filtering for particular reasons has to happen.	Mar 03 02:25
MinceR	i'm saying "i don't want them to do filtering"	Mar 03 02:25
MinceR	see the difference?	Mar 03 02:25
oiaohm	Problem is they will.	Mar 03 02:26
Chips_B_Malroy	I think Oiaohm deep down understands that censorship is something that starts as benign, but turns into a cancer	Mar 03 02:26
Chips_B_Malroy	give it time	Mar 03 02:26
MinceR	well yes, the problem is that your government and mine both abuse their power	Mar 03 02:26
Chips_B_Malroy	censorship is all about control	Mar 03 02:26
MinceR	that's the entire issue!	Mar 03 02:26
oiaohm	Hidden control censorship grows in a cancer.	Mar 03 02:26
Chips_B_Malroy	secrets	Mar 03 02:26
MinceR	i don't really see how a government could even exist without power being abused	Mar 03 02:26
oiaohm	Disputable and openally run censorship runs stable.	Mar 03 02:27
oiaohm	Has for ages.	Mar 03 02:27
MinceR	it's what the whole thing is about: a small group of corruptible, fallible people abusing power against the rest of the corruptible, fallible people	Mar 03 02:27
MinceR	and yet you'd have me believe that for some magical reason that small group is to be trusted	Mar 03 02:27
oiaohm	I am not after a small group of people to run it MinceR	Mar 03 02:27
MinceR	so, what group would you have run it?	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	would you include me in that group?	Mar 03 02:28
oiaohm	If everyone has the right to dispute it.	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	everyone?	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	then i decide that i don't want nor need filtering	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	do i get it?	Mar 03 02:28
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, the link I put up, about M$ forecasting a 5% increase in expenses this year.	Mar 03 02:28
oiaohm	As a collective.	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	that's not a collective	Mar 03 02:28
Chips_B_Malroy	where is that money going?	Mar 03 02:28
MinceR	that's a small group claiming they have the will of the people	Mar 03 02:29
Chips_B_Malroy	more employees?	Mar 03 02:29
MinceR	just like the "communist" dictators	Mar 03 02:29
oiaohm	No if the list is open anything that is wrong on there can be handled by law here.	Mar 03 02:29
Chips_B_Malroy	WinMO?	Mar 03 02:29
oiaohm	So goverments cannot just filter what ever. MinceR	Mar 03 02:29
Chips_B_Malroy	India?	Mar 03 02:29
oiaohm	The issue comes because the list was being done closed. MinceR	Mar 03 02:30
MinceR	in your alleged "democracy", that small group claims to derive the legitimacy of its power from being watched and controlled by the people -- yet you'd have that small group take away the means of that watching.	Mar 03 02:30
Chips_B_Malroy	wrong, if its secret, they can filter whatever	Mar 03 02:30
oiaohm	So very hard to prove who is blocking. MinceR	Mar 03 02:30
MinceR	oiaohm: am i supposed to believe that's the will of the "collective"?	Mar 03 02:30
oiaohm	If the list is open there can be.	Mar 03 02:30
MinceR	is the "collective" about "we don't care what goes, just arbitrarily choose a small group of us to lord it over the rest."	Mar 03 02:31
MinceR	?	Mar 03 02:31
Chips_B_Malroy	censorship will be abused shortly by the corporations that control the gov that controls the secret list	Mar 03 02:31
MinceR	oiaohm: if the list is secret they filter whatever they feel like filtering at the moment	Mar 03 02:31
MinceR	oiaohm: there's no control!	Mar 03 02:31
oiaohm	If the list is open and an entry is wrong the goverment is libable to pay damages to anyone they block incorrectly.	Mar 03 02:31
Chips_B_Malroy	thats fine too	Mar 03 02:32
oiaohm	As well as correct it.	Mar 03 02:32
oiaohm	The secrect bit I have a problem with.	Mar 03 02:32
Chips_B_Malroy	let them pay	Mar 03 02:32
MinceR	so they'll take some money out of the people's pocket (tax) and give it back to them?	Mar 03 02:32
MinceR	how generous.	Mar 03 02:32
MinceR	that's some really fine government you have there.	Mar 03 02:32
oiaohm	But that puts pure presure to make sure the list is right.	Mar 03 02:32
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MinceR	almost as rotten, corrupted and evil as mine.	Mar 03 02:33
MinceR	almost.	Mar 03 02:33
Chips_B_Malroy	will you feel fine, when Bill Gates will have the last word on that list?	Mar 03 02:33
oiaohm	If the list is never wrong they never have to pay MinceR	Mar 03 02:33
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MinceR	Chips_B_Malroy: he'll be blissfully ignorant of it	Mar 03 02:33
*Guest54173 is now known as Winrar_		Mar 03 02:33
MinceR	oiaohm: yeah, because your government is never wrong	Mar 03 02:33
MinceR	oiaohm: do you also have unicorns?	Mar 03 02:34
Chips_B_Malroy	MinceR> thats true because its a secret	Mar 03 02:34
oiaohm	My goverment losses a case about 4 times a year.	Mar 03 02:34
oiaohm	So nothing strange there.	Mar 03 02:34
MinceR	Chips_B_Malroy: and he'll never suspect anything, either.	Mar 03 02:34
oiaohm	I know my goverment does wrong MinceR	Mar 03 02:34
MinceR	oiaohm: but you seem to think they have a divine right to be wrong	Mar 03 02:35
oiaohm	Reason why from the start I said I did not agree with the list being secret.	Mar 03 02:35
MinceR	even as they cause you damage.	Mar 03 02:35
oiaohm	Problem here at this stage I know sites get removed by other countries from dns records or locked.	Mar 03 02:36
oiaohm	So that makes it even more fun to locate who filtered it.	Mar 03 02:36
MinceR	the problem is that others use different means to do it?	Mar 03 02:36
oiaohm	I know the filtering is going to happen.	Mar 03 02:36
MinceR	and you think that's good?	Mar 03 02:37
oiaohm	Nothing we can do will stop it.	Mar 03 02:37
MinceR	you don't think that a government that is quite willing to do that is illegitimate?	Mar 03 02:37
oiaohm	The most important part is knowing who did the filtering.	Mar 03 02:37
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oiaohm	Then they can be held accountable for their mistakes.	Mar 03 02:37
MinceR	and you see nothing wrong with your tax dollars being spent on a more efficient system to do just that?	Mar 03 02:37
MinceR	no they can't	Mar 03 02:38
MinceR	anyone who complains can be silenced	Mar 03 02:38
MinceR	and you seem to be ok with that	Mar 03 02:38
oiaohm	O yes they can.	Mar 03 02:38
Chips_B_Malroy	I would actually agree that some things need to be blocked	Mar 03 02:38
oiaohm	Australia laws they can. MinceR	Mar 03 02:38
Chips_B_Malroy	like suicide assisted sites for example	Mar 03 02:38
MinceR	yes, for example the bloodflow of those who pay from their citizens' pockets to build these Great Firewalls	Mar 03 02:38
DaemonFC	"<MinceR> anyone who complains can be silenced" terrorist!	Mar 03 02:38
MinceR	that should be blocked	Mar 03 02:38
oiaohm	Complains is not blocked.	Mar 03 02:39
MinceR	DaemonFC: i guess by the jesuslandian definition ("anyone who dares to think for themselves") i'm a terrorist.	Mar 03 02:39
MinceR	oiaohm: how do you know?	Mar 03 02:39
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MinceR	oiaohm: if someone finds out, will you see their complaint?	Mar 03 02:39
Chips_B_Malroy	The problem I see, is filtering and blocking, does not follow the recourse of the law	Mar 03 02:39
DaemonFC	MinceR, That's not true. Anyone who annoys the ruling class with their thinking for themselves is a terrorist	Mar 03 02:40
oiaohm	We do have recourse under the law.	Mar 03 02:40
DaemonFC	there's a difference there	Mar 03 02:40
MinceR	i think the law (whatever it happens to be) is no excuse for screwing the citizens.	Mar 03 02:40
oiaohm	Here Chips_B_Malroy	Mar 03 02:40
MinceR	there's no excuse for taking the freedom of innocents away.	Mar 03 02:40
oiaohm	Problem is with the list hidden proving it was the goverment list that blocked you is tricky.	Mar 03 02:40
Chips_B_Malroy	if these people who run these sites are doing illegal, sue them in court, the gov has this option, and if they out of the country, then block them legally	Mar 03 02:40
MinceR	and yes, this includes freedom of speech -- an integral part of freedom, no matter how much this fact hurts.	Mar 03 02:40
DaemonFC	MinceR, Yes there is. They hate freedom.	Mar 03 02:40
Chips_B_Malroy	there is not legal recourse here	Mar 03 02:41
MinceR	DaemonFC: then they'll take their own freedom away	Mar 03 02:41
MinceR	DaemonFC: fine with me, as long as mine remains intact.	Mar 03 02:41
oiaohm	Australia has legal recourse has already been testing and won with the list hidden.	Mar 03 02:41
MinceR	the "social contract" is bullshit.	Mar 03 02:41
DaemonFC	MinceR, It's OK to have freedom as long as you don't try to invoke it.	Mar 03 02:41
DaemonFC	get the deal there?	Mar 03 02:41
oiaohm	With the list open legal recourse is many times simpler to do.	Mar 03 02:41
MinceR	DaemonFC: yeah	Mar 03 02:41
Chips_B_Malroy	well put	Mar 03 02:42
DaemonFC	It's that way with some software too. Mono users have freedom by the letter of the license, but nobody can stop Microsoft from suing (over patents) anyone using that freedom.	Mar 03 02:43
MinceR	the sad thing is that the more countries adopt the Great Firewall the more pressure will be on mine to do the same	Mar 03 02:43
DaemonFC	broken legal system gives you freedom with one hand and smacks you down with the other	Mar 03 02:43
Chips_B_Malroy	On another thread, a google search for "Microsoft outsourcing to India" turns up gobs of stuff	Mar 03 02:43
cubezzz	Great Firewall?	Mar 03 02:44
Chips_B_Malroy	China	Mar 03 02:44
MinceR	cubezzz: what china, australia and who knows who else has.	Mar 03 02:44
DaemonFC	free software can never be 100% effective in a system of patents	Mar 03 02:44
DaemonFC	nobody says it's non-free on the count of that	Mar 03 02:45
Chips_B_Malroy	Patents. All the Corps need them, in order to sue the others. MAD of corps. Its why IBM and Google have to have them, in case MS decides to mess with them, they can countersue	Mar 03 02:46
DaemonFC	Anyway, I think I say the other day where someone said Matt Asay was telling Microsoft to "Bring it on!" more or less	Mar 03 02:46
DaemonFC	anyone know what he was on about?	Mar 03 02:46
MinceR	DaemonFC: mono is non-free though, because of patent issues	Mar 03 02:46
DaemonFC	*saw	Mar 03 02:46
MinceR	it's the rare example of the non-free open source software, afaik	Mar 03 02:46
cubezzz	patens don't mean squat outside of the US	Mar 03 02:46
Chips_B_Malroy	TRue, but they will	Mar 03 02:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: dunno, but i guess it was the fanboy cheering for crApple	Mar 03 02:47
DaemonFC	MinceR, It's a free under copyright license	Mar 03 02:47
cubezzz	software patents aren't even used by some countries	Mar 03 02:47
DaemonFC	but the patent system undoes the ability to freely use it	Mar 03 02:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: free software isn't defined in terms of licenses	Mar 03 02:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: it's defined in terms of the four freedoms.	Mar 03 02:47
DaemonFC	MinceR, And the LGPL and MIT licenses give the user those freedoms	Mar 03 02:47
Chips_B_Malroy	The corps are working hard to get software patents in the EU soon	Mar 03 02:47
DaemonFC	but they can't overthrow the patent system	Mar 03 02:47
cubezzz	the patent system? You're joking	Mar 03 02:48
DaemonFC	They could declare Mono the code to be in the public domain	Mar 03 02:48
cubezzz	all that will happen is some lawyers will get rich	Mar 03 02:48
DaemonFC	it still violates patents	Mar 03 02:48
MinceR	yeah, the EU is going to force the ACTA on hungary and keep on prancing as if they represented us and were controlled by officials we elected	Mar 03 02:48
MinceR	that's why i wish we'd just leave the EU and make the price of buying laws here that much higher for the megacorps	Mar 03 02:49
Chips_B_Malroy	Sadly, a distro should never be released here in the land of the free, but rather if its put togeather here, released on some foreign server that does not have patents	Mar 03 02:49
cubezzz	imagery property doesn't exist :)	Mar 03 02:49
DaemonFC	MinceR, Your government has full authority over trash pickups and dog catching :)	Mar 03 02:49
MinceR	cubezzz: you can still be sued over it	Mar 03 02:49
cubezzz	is there a patent on icons and clicking too?	Mar 03 02:49
MinceR	DaemonFC: and they screw even that up	Mar 03 02:49
cubezzz	have they patented 1 + 1 = 2 yet?	Mar 03 02:50
MinceR	gn	Mar 03 02:50
cubezzz	I'm sooo scared of the big bad patents	Mar 03 02:50
oiaohm	Yes MS took out a patent for client on icons so did apple.	Mar 03 02:51
oiaohm	client/clicking.	Mar 03 02:51
MinceR	who won?	Mar 03 02:51
oiaohm	No one neither has used the patent	Mar 03 02:52
Chips_B_Malroy	seriously, distro's should be released overseas somewhere, without patents. That way they could all have the codecs and css installed by default like Mint does	Mar 03 02:52
cubezzz	so the patents are basically useless	Mar 03 02:52
oiaohm	Ie patents	Mar 03 02:52
MinceR	so they both hold a patent for the same thing?	Mar 03 02:52
oiaohm	Yep MinceR	Mar 03 02:52
cubezzz	why doesn't Xerox sue the whole world then?	Mar 03 02:52
MinceR	for something that they saw prior art of at xerox parc?	Mar 03 02:52
cubezzz	exactly	Mar 03 02:52
cubezzz	it's all horsebleep	Mar 03 02:53
MinceR	the jesuslandian legal system is a neverending source of comedy	Mar 03 02:53
MinceR	if only it had no way of affecting me, i'd laugh at it all day.	Mar 03 02:53
oiaohm	Problem with patents is that you can take them out without a working device	Mar 03 02:53
oiaohm	Let alone a search for prior art	Mar 03 02:53
cubezzz	not in Canada you can't	Mar 03 02:53
oiaohm	Really.	Mar 03 02:53
cubezzz	we don't have software patents	Mar 03 02:54
oiaohm	There are some Canada device patents that you look at them thee is no way the device can work.	Mar 03 02:54
Chips_B_Malroy	So whats the deal with Novell? Someone wants to buy it, but the source of the money cannot be traced? Funny isn't it, just in time before we see who will win the rights to the Unix copyrights.	Mar 03 02:54
oiaohm	Completely no way. cubezzz	Mar 03 02:54
cubezzz	it has to be tied to hardware	Mar 03 02:54
oiaohm	The complete base rules of the patent system are screwed.	Mar 03 02:54
oiaohm	Tied to hardware does not mean the hardware works.	Mar 03 02:55
oiaohm	That is the big thing you can just patent a dream of a working hardware.	Mar 03 02:55
cubezzz	how does it affect Linux users anyway?	Mar 03 02:55
oiaohm	If you call device makers Linux users makes there life hard turning out devices at times.	Mar 03 02:55
cubezzz	it's a big game of bluff	Mar 03 02:56
oiaohm	When it should not be a game of bluff	Mar 03 02:56
cubezzz	so just publishing programming specs and someone else will write it	Mar 03 02:56
oiaohm	You have some new idea that works. You should have to present the working item to the patent office if you want patent protection.	Mar 03 02:56
oiaohm	That would cut the patent numbers massively.	Mar 03 02:56
oiaohm	Less than 10 percent I would guess could present a real working device.	Mar 03 02:57
cubezzz	don't patents expire after 20 years?	Mar 03 02:57
oiaohm	Software is 20	Mar 03 02:57
cubezzz	they can't endlessly renew them can they?	Mar 03 02:57
DaemonFC	Mono, even RMS says Mono is "free", he also says that the patent laws of some countries subvert that. It makes me think of Mono being in the same legal class as the LAME MP3 encoder. I assume that if you only redistribute Mono as source code you're only describing a .Net compatible runtime and not actually providing one.	Mar 03 02:58
oiaohm	There is a illegal process called evergreening cubezzz	Mar 03 02:58
DaemonFC	That could be interesting given that Gentoo might be the only legal distributor of Mono outseide of Novell	Mar 03 02:58
oiaohm	One patent expires you take out another covering the same kind of area. cubezzz	Mar 03 02:59
cubezzz	I don't see any problem then	Mar 03 02:59
DaemonFC	or other operating systems that use ports-like package management	Mar 03 02:59
oiaohm	Due to no prior art checks that gets threw. cubezzz	Mar 03 02:59
cubezzz	after 20 years all the patents should be expired	Mar 03 02:59
cubezzz	so already a ton of them must have expired by now	Mar 03 02:59
oiaohm	So company with the evergreen patent gets to apply it against there competition. cubezzz	Mar 03 02:59
DaemonFC	Think about it. Gentoo is only sending you the source code, it's being compiled locally	Mar 03 03:00
DaemonFC	how do they know that it will be compiled? ;)	Mar 03 03:00
oiaohm	And unless the company being attacked with an evergreen patent can prove it they can be force to pay up. cubezzz	Mar 03 03:00
cubezzz	DaemonFC, I pretty much do that with old Linux myself	Mar 03 03:00
DaemonFC	cubezzz, When you distribute source only, it also falls under the first amendment of the US constitution	Mar 03 03:00
DaemonFC	protected speech	Mar 03 03:00
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 03:01
oiaohm	Both evergreening and no real item are major issues in the patent systems everywhere. cubezzz	Mar 03 03:01
cubezzz	like decss ? :)	Mar 03 03:01
DaemonFC	cubezzz, yeah and libdvdcss and such	Mar 03 03:01
oiaohm	css is illegal in australia	Mar 03 03:01
DaemonFC	you can print out the libdvdcss source code and wear it on a T-shirt	Mar 03 03:01
oiaohm	Its regional coded.	Mar 03 03:01
DaemonFC	they can't stop there either	Mar 03 03:01
DaemonFC	*that	Mar 03 03:01
oiaohm	So breachs our right to the trade of information freely.	Mar 03 03:01
cubezzz	it's llegal, HA	Mar 03 03:01
cubezzz	so I bet no one compiles it then right? :)	Mar 03 03:02
cubezzz	and the patent police go into every house and check	Mar 03 03:02
oiaohm	So we are allowed to items like decss perfectly fine.	Mar 03 03:02
cubezzz	it's ridiculous	Mar 03 03:02
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Do you have any concept of constitutionally-protected speech in Australia?	Mar 03 03:02
DaemonFC	or even by statute?	Mar 03 03:02
DaemonFC	if so, how can they deny that source code is speech or expression?	Mar 03 03:03
oiaohm	We don't have constitutionally protected speech.	Mar 03 03:03
oiaohm	We have constitutionally protected free trade.	Mar 03 03:03
MinceR	DaemonFC: he's living in a dictatorship and is happy about it.	Mar 03 03:03
oiaohm	That is a whole different class of law.	Mar 03 03:04
Chips_B_Malroy	well, since css is illegal in Australia, its sort of, almost like a software patent?	Mar 03 03:04
oiaohm	css distrupts people right to trade freely.	Mar 03 03:04
Chips_B_Malroy	oh, licence	Mar 03 03:04
DaemonFC	oiaohm, I can't incite a riot, or plot o murder someone, or shout "FIRE!!!" in a crowded theater, but most speech and expression is protected	Mar 03 03:04
DaemonFC	including source code	Mar 03 03:04
oiaohm	Part of trading freely is the right to talk freely about issues.	Mar 03 03:05
Chips_B_Malroy	no css, helps peole trade freely	Mar 03 03:05
cubezzz	no bomb jokes at airports :)	Mar 03 03:05
cubezzz	highly inadvisable	Mar 03 03:05
DaemonFC	cubezzz, Falls under the threat to public safety idea	Mar 03 03:05
cubezzz	but all that is common sense	Mar 03 03:05
DaemonFC	same as "FIRE!!!!" in a movie theater	Mar 03 03:05
Chips_B_Malroy	and let them play the disks that they paid for on linux	Mar 03 03:05
oiaohm	Basically our free speech laws come from free trade.	Mar 03 03:05
cubezzz	I don't seem to have any trouble downloaded Linux ISOs	Mar 03 03:06
Chips_B_Malroy	from patents and big corporations,	Mar 03 03:06
Chips_B_Malroy	thats where your laws came from	Mar 03 03:06
cubezzz	where's the big bad patent threat eh?	Mar 03 03:06
cubezzz	sleeping? :)	Mar 03 03:06
DaemonFC	the thing is that libdvdcss isn't actually a DRM crack	Mar 03 03:06
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DaemonFC	it just generates random keys until one unlocks the disk	Mar 03 03:06
oiaohm	Also we have anti descrimination rules based also constitutionally protected.	Mar 03 03:07
Chips_B_Malroy	there is a blur between patents, licences, and copyrights	Mar 03 03:07
cubezzz	software patents are just stupid	Mar 03 03:08
Chips_B_Malroy	mostly, u in the same boat as the rest of us oiaohm. It not really the last free place in the world you know.	Mar 03 03:08
cubezzz	clicking on a icon is patentable?	Mar 03 03:08
oiaohm	Chips_B_Malroy: Yep but the issue is we have completely different names from things.	Mar 03 03:08
Chips_B_Malroy	not completely	Mar 03 03:09
oiaohm	Far enough.	Mar 03 03:09
cubezzz	there's de facto and de jure	Mar 03 03:09
oiaohm	USA people ask about free speech when the question here is free trade and fair trading.	Mar 03 03:09
Ziomatrix	cubezzz: its more then that, businesses and people should have choice on how they want to distribute their software. So long as its not obussive and obstructive within itself to others	Mar 03 03:09
cubezzz	we have freedom de jure	Mar 03 03:09
DaemonFC	Christians are protected under the 1968 version of the US hate crimes bill, but when the government went to add gay people last year all of a sudden you have churches saying protected groups are unconstitutional	Mar 03 03:09
Ziomatrix	oiaohm: turning it into a freedom pissing contest is not going to solve anything	Mar 03 03:10
DaemonFC	wherre was this opinion over the 41 years they had been protected?	Mar 03 03:10
cubezzz	I'm not pissing :)	Mar 03 03:10
cubezzz	not at the moment anyway	Mar 03 03:10
oiaohm	Really what is the point of free speech if you cannot trade.	Mar 03 03:10
Chips_B_Malroy	let me boil it down for you, its about the rights of big rich multinational corporations that have turned to controling the govs of this world, at the expense of the people	Mar 03 03:10
Ziomatrix	DaemonFC: its simple those folks opinions are so fanatically askewed that they would bite their own hand to spite the other's face	Mar 03 03:10
DaemonFC	I never saw a massive church movement to get themselves delisted from the hate crimes protection bill from 1968	Mar 03 03:10
Chips_B_Malroy	including your country	Mar 03 03:10
DaemonFC	did anyone else?	Mar 03 03:10
cubezzz	no of course not	Mar 03 03:11
cubezzz	I don't think it's even debatable	Mar 03 03:11
DaemonFC	if protected groups are unconstitutional, lets roll the entire hate crimes law back	Mar 03 03:11
DaemonFC	strike every protected group	Mar 03 03:11
DaemonFC	yes?	Mar 03 03:11
cubezzz	then you're going back to the 1950's	Mar 03 03:12
DaemonFC	"It's the only way to uphold the constitution, thanks for bringing this up!	Mar 03 03:12
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 03:12
DaemonFC	no, roll the whole thing back and strike everyone	Mar 03 03:12
DaemonFC	including the protected group status the Christians enjoy	Mar 03 03:13
oiaohm	Hate crimes fall under anti descrimantation laws. Here. Anti-descrimantation laws can over throw goverment put forward laws.	Mar 03 03:13
cubezzz	another example, transistors were patented but I think everyone can make transistors	Mar 03 03:13
DaemonFC	oiaohm, It's bullshit anyway. The hate crimes laws in the US do not violate the constitution because you do not have freedom of expression when you murder someone.	Mar 03 03:13
DaemonFC	cracking someone over the head with a bat then lynching them is not a protected activity that I'm aware of	Mar 03 03:14
oiaohm	Anti descrimantion also covers refusing to trade with someone based on skin as well. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:14
cubezzz	I think GNU/Linux is fine, and safe enough	Mar 03 03:14
cubezzz	getting back to the whole software patent thing	Mar 03 03:14
cubezzz	the OEM thing, that is a major problem though	Mar 03 03:15
oiaohm	Australian laws are more about allowing trade than anything else.	Mar 03 03:15
DaemonFC	oiaohm, I know of very few businesses that want to lose 30% of their income	Mar 03 03:15
DaemonFC	turning away inorities would kill their bottom line	Mar 03 03:15
DaemonFC	*minorities	Mar 03 03:15
oiaohm	But they did at one point in usa history. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:16
Ziomatrix	oiaohm: then why have they tried to implement such harsh ISP filtering measures? As well as for games?	Mar 03 03:16
DaemonFC	oiaohm, minorities didn't used to be 30% of the population either	Mar 03 03:16
DaemonFC	some businesses would be willing to absorb a 10% hit	Mar 03 03:17
oiaohm	With money yes. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:17
cubezzz	what about the original natives? :)	Mar 03 03:17
oiaohm	Blocking trade has nasty effects. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:17
Chips_B_Malroy	control=money at some point. MS knows this. Australia gov will do this in time	Mar 03 03:17
cubezzz	they kind of got the shaft...	Mar 03 03:17
DaemonFC	cubezzz, Yeah kind of. What happened to the ones in Canada?	Mar 03 03:17
DaemonFC	about the same thing?	Mar 03 03:17
Ziomatrix	cubezzz: have you ever been to Mohegan Sun?	Mar 03 03:17
oiaohm	Ziomatrix: for games lot of games don't get produced here. So not good for trade also they don't face australian rating system.	Mar 03 03:18
cubezzz	Ziomatrix, no	Mar 03 03:18
cubezzz	DaemonFC, I would say so	Mar 03 03:18
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Your government tells you what your children will see and hear.	Mar 03 03:18
DaemonFC	cough fascism	Mar 03 03:19
cubezzz	Canada government gives natives quite a lot of money nowadays though	Mar 03 03:19
oiaohm	No the rules are broad. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:19
Chips_B_Malroy	if you can block the competition to filtering, and get away with it, why not? MS would not have any ethical problem doing this if they controlled the gov doing it	Mar 03 03:19
DaemonFC	here we have industry self-regulations (hah) and voluntary store compliance.	Mar 03 03:19
oiaohm	And self-regulation is why you banks had big problems.	Mar 03 03:20
DaemonFC	video game ratings are getting to be like movie ratings were in the US in the 1970s, oiaohm	Mar 03 03:20
cubezzz	self-reg doesn't work very well	Mar 03 03:20
DaemonFC	everyone is trying to get an M rating on a game that's not all that hardcore	Mar 03 03:20
Chips_B_Malroy	it worked fine	Mar 03 03:20
Chips_B_Malroy	very fine	Mar 03 03:20
Chips_B_Malroy	made them trillions	Mar 03 03:21
Chips_B_Malroy	too big to fail	Mar 03 03:21
DaemonFC	M rating on a game is like an NC-17 on movies	Mar 03 03:21
Chips_B_Malroy	they controlled the gov	Mar 03 03:21
cubezzz	well, when you put it that way...	Mar 03 03:21
DaemonFC	most theaters won't run NC-17 though	Mar 03 03:21
DaemonFC	so they try to not go higher than R	Mar 03 03:21
cubezzz	wow, if they got trillions I should at least get a lousy million :)	Mar 03 03:21
oiaohm	Our problem our game rates stop at PG. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:21
cubezzz	that's only one millionth as much cash :)	Mar 03 03:22
Chips_B_Malroy	people here cannot even get their unemployment extended	Mar 03 03:22
DaemonFC	oiaohm, so everything beyond that's like a no rating?	Mar 03 03:22
cubezzz	what a mess	Mar 03 03:22
oiaohm	Yep DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:22
oiaohm	As I said our rating system need fixing. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:22
Chips_B_Malroy	that failed, but might get passed in a week or two for areas with higher than 8.5% unemployment, official	Mar 03 03:22
DaemonFC	oiaohm, So you could conceivably have a game that should be a triple X rated video game, and it's just not rated	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	same with most other ones	Mar 03 03:23
oiaohm	Not rated equals not allowed to be importanted. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	oh	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	so you have to get them on ebay	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	in a plain brown box	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 03:23
oiaohm	Since no one will dispute with regutaltor to create rules above PG no rules are forming.	Mar 03 03:23
DaemonFC	what? they didn't sell Halo thare?	Mar 03 03:24
oiaohm	Halo got into PG just.	Mar 03 03:24
DaemonFC	so did they censor it or "massage" the rating system?	Mar 03 03:24
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 03 03:24
oiaohm	Some sections are missing.	Mar 03 03:24
DaemonFC	damn	Mar 03 03:25
DaemonFC	What is it with the Islamic Republic of Australia all of a sudden?	Mar 03 03:25
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 03:25
oiaohm	Its no new.	Mar 03 03:25
oiaohm	We need a few companies to dispute for higher rates.	Mar 03 03:25
oiaohm	To create a list of what each of the higher rating should and should not have.	Mar 03 03:26
Chips_B_Malroy	More like Red China Daemon	Mar 03 03:26
oiaohm	So cease to be non rated.	Mar 03 03:26
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Yeah, kind of	Mar 03 03:26
oiaohm	That is they way the australia system was designed to work.	Mar 03 03:26
DaemonFC	but even China's not that strict	Mar 03 03:26
DaemonFC	China is more worried about ideas that subvert their government than they are about nudity and violence	Mar 03 03:27
oiaohm	not goverments create what each rating is. But beformed by comuminty and company input.	Mar 03 03:27
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Guessing Madworld isn't for sale there?	Mar 03 03:27
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 03:27
oiaohm	Yep the internet has screw the australian rating system up.	Mar 03 03:27
oiaohm	So the rating body is firing arms against the internet to force the system to work right.	Mar 03 03:27
Chips_B_Malroy	Lets face it, Australia, its not the last free place, its going down the same rathole as the rest of the Western Democracies	Mar 03 03:27
oiaohm	Australia has never been fully free.	Mar 03 03:28
Chips_B_Malroy	agreed	Mar 03 03:28
oiaohm	Some of the systems designed have been good.	Mar 03 03:28
Chips_B_Malroy	yes	Mar 03 03:28
oiaohm	But when they malfunction they do it in a big way.	Mar 03 03:28
oiaohm	Like the design fo the rating system is brilent.	Mar 03 03:28
Ziomatrix	DaemonFC: the PRC takes a page on from the USA and has plenty of action packed flying circus style kung fu series on TV	Mar 03 03:29
Chips_B_Malroy	the firewall	Mar 03 03:29
oiaohm	If it would work.	Mar 03 03:29
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2L5-W0vkc_E&feature=related	Mar 03 03:29
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- Let's Play: Mad World [Wii][HD] - Part 10: Never Hit a Lady .::. Size~: 123.56 KB	Mar 03 03:29
oiaohm	Firewall is a repsonce to the rating system not working. And the companies just deciding to import than deal with the rating system.	Mar 03 03:29
DaemonFC	oiaohm, That's what I'm saying	Mar 03 03:30
DaemonFC	companies would just import things they can't get	Mar 03 03:30
Chips_B_Malroy	let me sum it up, you in the same boat as the rest of us. you can only argue about the rate that the boat is taking on water	Mar 03 03:30
*Ziomatrix has quit ()		Mar 03 03:31
oiaohm	Import by internet DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:36
DaemonFC	yeah	Mar 03 03:36
oiaohm	Notice how many of those highly volient games have by on line and download options.	Mar 03 03:37
oiaohm	How to by pass countries rating systems. Sooner or latter some country had to hit back.	Mar 03 03:37
DaemonFC	oiaohm, TOR?	Mar 03 03:40
oiaohm	That is the big thing lot of people not getting.	Mar 03 03:40
oiaohm	This is a responce to a system not working.	Mar 03 03:41
oiaohm	The second responce. 7 years ago ie 2001 there was a call for game companies to come and help design the higher rating systems.	Mar 03 03:41
oiaohm	Opps 9 year ago.	Mar 03 03:42
DaemonFC	I hate Russian websites	Mar 03 03:42
DaemonFC	grrrr	Mar 03 03:42
oiaohm	Doing another attempt to avoid the system will just risking triggering bigger responce.	Mar 03 03:42
DaemonFC	click on this, watch these ads	Mar 03 03:42
oiaohm	Basically the rating system gets fixed lot of the presure on games will disappar.	Mar 03 03:43
DaemonFC	turn on pop ups	Mar 03 03:43
oiaohm	Its not like the rating body is not wanting to create higher ratings.	Mar 03 03:43
DaemonFC	click the wrong thing and wait again	Mar 03 03:43
Chips_B_Malroy	well the violet games issues, its sort of bogus. Both your country and mine, will put an 18 year old in a rice pattey with an M16, drafted, no choice. Now thats violet.	Mar 03 03:44
oiaohm	Here is a pure lack of rating system. Chips_B_Malroy	Mar 03 03:45
oiaohm	And the rules to create higher ratings need involement.	Mar 03 03:45
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Translate Russian for my	Mar 03 03:45
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 03:45
DaemonFC	*me	Mar 03 03:45
Chips_B_Malroy	you really need one for Halo, when u see a guy standing with a gun on the cover?	Mar 03 03:45
Chips_B_Malroy	just make them all over 16	Mar 03 03:46
Chips_B_Malroy	let the parents buy them	Mar 03 03:46
Chips_B_Malroy	them	Mar 03 03:46
DaemonFC	Why no international outrage over Australia's lack of civil liberties?	Mar 03 03:46
DaemonFC	invasion and regime change maybe?	Mar 03 03:46
Chips_B_Malroy	Oh, I forgot DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:47
Chips_B_Malroy	hehe	Mar 03 03:47
DaemonFC	their military wouldn't fare as well as Iraq's	Mar 03 03:47
Chips_B_Malroy	no, I have nothing but respect for the Aussie military	Mar 03 03:48
Chips_B_Malroy	and the Brits too	Mar 03 03:48
DaemonFC	they have 6 diesel submarines, woohoo	Mar 03 03:48
DaemonFC	no nuclear strike capability	Mar 03 03:48
DaemonFC	their air force is a bunch of aging F/A 18 Hornets	Mar 03 03:48
DaemonFC	(72 of them) with bad frames	Mar 03 03:48
Chips_B_Malroy	and New Zealand doe snot let us port our ships there with nukes, the way it should be	Mar 03 03:49
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_game_content_rating_system Ok I forgot about MA15 that stops at 18 we have nothing for over 18.	Mar 03 03:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Video game content rating system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 48.95 KB	Mar 03 03:49
DaemonFC	I think the Iraqi Air Force's Mirage fighters in the first Gulf War were more capable than Australia's primary fighter jets	Mar 03 03:49
oiaohm	Our F/A 18 hornets are from the USA scrap yard.	Mar 03 03:49
oiaohm	Cost us only shipping.	Mar 03 03:49
DaemonFC	pretty much	Mar 03 03:49
DaemonFC	what we were using in 1982	Mar 03 03:49
DaemonFC	no upgrades	Mar 03 03:50
DaemonFC	if we invade Australia before we sell them the F-35, they're fucked	Mar 03 03:50
DaemonFC	hehehe	Mar 03 03:50
Chips_B_Malroy	why would the Aussies need F16's? They a peaceful bunch	Mar 03 03:50
oiaohm	Not really.	Mar 03 03:50
oiaohm	if your USA forces are still as usless at holding on there ships we don't have a major problems.	Mar 03 03:50
Chips_B_Malroy	and MS already controls them	Mar 03 03:51
DaemonFC	the old non-upgraded F/A-18 is obsolete even without the worn out frames	Mar 03 03:51
oiaohm	A crew of 8 can operate most USA ships after australian control systems are fitted.	Mar 03 03:51
DaemonFC	a squadron of F-22's would pulvarize several squadrons of F/A-18s	Mar 03 03:51
DaemonFC	and probably take no losses doing it	Mar 03 03:51
oiaohm	Not for sure.	Mar 03 03:52
DaemonFC	faster, more maneuverable, better targeting system	Mar 03 03:52
DaemonFC	the F/A-18 would lose	Mar 03 03:52
Chips_B_Malroy	Maybe, but we will probably go with "good" ugh M$ software to power those ships	Mar 03 03:52
Chips_B_Malroy	wish I had that link now	Mar 03 03:52
oiaohm	F-22 not as strong to magnetic pulse.	Mar 03 03:52
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, No, no Microsoft software on the F-22	Mar 03 03:52
DaemonFC	nor the F-35	Mar 03 03:52
DaemonFC	my dad worked on th radar system for the F-35	Mar 03 03:53
Chips_B_Malroy	Ford now is brain dead advertising M$ software in their cars	Mar 03 03:53
oiaohm	Also the australian F18 don't have any USA electronics left in them.	Mar 03 03:53
DaemonFC	so?	Mar 03 03:53
DaemonFC	They're still inferior and two generations old	Mar 03 03:53
Chips_B_Malroy	neither do the iraealis	Mar 03 03:53
DaemonFC	they pose no threat to a modern air force	Mar 03 03:53
oiaohm	Other than the fact they can magnetic pulse. DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:53
DaemonFC	Russian Migs could decimate the F/A-18	Mar 03 03:54
oiaohm	Yes was not a feature they F/A 18 had before we got them.	Mar 03 03:54
Chips_B_Malroy	Aussies like europe dosen't have to fight real wars	Mar 03 03:54
DaemonFC	it's not just the US fighters that could have a field day with your fighter jets	Mar 03 03:54
oiaohm	No USA topguns found out the hardway no.	Mar 03 03:54
Chips_B_Malroy	its the USA that gets itself into all these bush wars	Mar 03 03:54
oiaohm	USA radar lock does not work.	Mar 03 03:54
Chips_B_Malroy	and the world's policeman	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	works fine	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	what we sold you didn't work well	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	;)	Mar 03 03:55
oiaohm	Not once pulse is on.	Mar 03 03:55
Chips_B_Malroy	no it dosen't work fine	Mar 03 03:55
oiaohm	Works up until that is turned on DaemonFC	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	we don't sell the good stuff	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	we cripple it	Mar 03 03:55
DaemonFC	remove stuff still classified	Mar 03 03:55
oiaohm	Reason why we striped all the electronics out.	Mar 03 03:55
Chips_B_Malroy	because we are going broke being the world's policeman	Mar 03 03:55
oiaohm	The Australian F18 has australian gear.	Mar 03 03:56
DaemonFC	oiaohm, The F-35 is a damned impressive plane	Mar 03 03:56
oiaohm	It was just a air frame to equip.	Mar 03 03:56
DaemonFC	costs a fortune, but it is an amazng piece of hardware	Mar 03 03:56
oiaohm	Same reason why Australia wants the complete software and lot.	Mar 03 03:56
oiaohm	so we can alter it to carry some of our custom gear.	Mar 03 03:56
Chips_B_Malroy	hope we do not build too many F35's	Mar 03 03:56
DaemonFC	if it costs half again more than your enemy pays for theirs but you only need a third as many, it's worth the investment	Mar 03 03:57
oiaohm	Like the Australian F18 can track a sleath bomber.	Mar 03 03:57
oiaohm	From its onboard computers.	Mar 03 03:57
oiaohm	Turn them of no more air time bomber.	Mar 03 03:57
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, We're actually getting a hell of a deal on the F-35	Mar 03 03:57
Chips_B_Malroy	on borrowed Red Chinese money	Mar 03 03:57
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, We had other countries pay for a lot of the development and agree to purchase a lot of them from us, at a profit	Mar 03 03:58
oiaohm	Basically the Australian air craft no 100 percent walk over for USA aircraft.	Mar 03 03:58
oiaohm	Russian on the other hand.	Mar 03 03:58
DaemonFC	so we get a new fleet of fighters at half price	Mar 03 03:58
Chips_B_Malroy	at some point the military has to be cut back.	Mar 03 03:58
Chips_B_Malroy	at least one of these wars must end	Mar 03 03:58
*bruce89 has quit (Quit: What's this button do?)		Mar 03 03:59
Chips_B_Malroy	the country cannot afford both	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, I think we should look into retiring a lot of old weaponry, including the M-16	Mar 03 03:59
Chips_B_Malroy	F16	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	H&K has been demonstrating a much more powerful assault rifle	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	very reliable	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	bury it in mud and water and sand, dig it out, it fires	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	no overheating	Mar 03 03:59
DaemonFC	it just works	Mar 03 04:00
Chips_B_Malroy	AK47 was always a more reliable weapon than the M14 or M16	Mar 03 04:00
oiaohm	And we will most likely get F22 airframes out usa scrap heap as well DaemonFC	Mar 03 04:00
Chips_B_Malroy	simple, you could throw a handful of sand into it and it still worked	Mar 03 04:00
DaemonFC	this rifle I saw demonstrated makes the AK-47 look unraliable in comparison	Mar 03 04:01
DaemonFC	*unreliable	Mar 03 04:01
Chips_B_Malroy	a p51 mustang would be good enough for afganistan	Mar 03 04:01
DaemonFC	don't remember the model number	Mar 03 04:01
DaemonFC	I'll look it up in a bit	Mar 03 04:01
Chips_B_Malroy	or any war the Aussies fight in	Mar 03 04:01
DaemonFC	German company	Mar 03 04:02
Chips_B_Malroy	well, except Iraq the first gulf war, to be fair	Mar 03 04:02
DaemonFC	they're training US Marines with this rifle to test them out	Mar 03 04:02
oiaohm	Really when australian forces come home from a war they always come home with more guns and armor than they left with.	Mar 03 04:02
DaemonFC	I was seriously impressed	Mar 03 04:02
oiaohm	Its not having the best guns.	Mar 03 04:02
Chips_B_Malroy	I remember the name HK but cannot pronoucn it	Mar 03 04:02
oiaohm	It making sure you can get and keep them.	Mar 03 04:02
oiaohm	USA soliders are great to nick stuff from.	Mar 03 04:02
DaemonFC	stuff like what?	Mar 03 04:03
Chips_B_Malroy	we glad to let you have it, we have mostly the same interests in this world	Mar 03 04:03
oiaohm	Guns Body armor jeeps.. Armored personal carriers.	Mar 03 04:03
DaemonFC	The Russians have a military industrial complex nearly equal to our own	Mar 03 04:03
oiaohm	War in iraq is going great for us.	Mar 03 04:03
DaemonFC	technologically, they're the only ones which rival us	Mar 03 04:04
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 04:04
DaemonFC	the Chinese have numbers	Mar 03 04:04
Chips_B_Malroy	and they have money	Mar 03 04:04
Chips_B_Malroy	the money that we borrow	Mar 03 04:04
DaemonFC	yeah, but a war would go nuclear eventually	Mar 03 04:04
Chips_B_Malroy	that funds these wars	Mar 03 04:04
oiaohm	Also you love laughting about our subs.	Mar 03 04:04
DaemonFC	so all three try not to go to war directly	Mar 03 04:04
DaemonFC	oiaohm, diesel and noisy	Mar 03 04:05
DaemonFC	noisy even for diesels	Mar 03 04:05
oiaohm	Our subs are some of the only ones that can fake there sonar image to look like another sub.	Mar 03 04:05
Chips_B_Malroy	so why would the Aussie's need nuke subs?	Mar 03 04:05
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Endurance and quietness	Mar 03 04:05
Chips_B_Malroy	heck, they don't even need the diesel ones	Mar 03 04:05
oiaohm	Really noisy is when they want to be seen. DaemonFC	Mar 03 04:05
DaemonFC	surface and run the engines	Mar 03 04:06
DaemonFC	woohoo	Mar 03 04:06
oiaohm	Nukes make a constant noise.	Mar 03 04:06
DaemonFC	now everyone knows you're there	Mar 03 04:06
Chips_B_Malroy	mostly for training and drug interception?	Mar 03 04:06
DaemonFC	they also don't have to surface	Mar 03 04:06
oiaohm	Don't have to surface is there only advantage.	Mar 03 04:06
DaemonFC	no	Mar 03 04:06
DaemonFC	they can stay out longer	Mar 03 04:06
oiaohm	Noise a diesel can complete switch to electric and go silent.	Mar 03 04:07
DaemonFC	the reactor only needs refueling every couple years	Mar 03 04:07
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 04:07
Chips_B_Malroy	I am curious if Europe will rearm	Mar 03 04:07
oiaohm	Really no point if you can not sneek up and attack.	Mar 03 04:07
DaemonFC	ChanServ, You mean as the EU takes more power from its member states?	Mar 03 04:08
DaemonFC	errr	Mar 03 04:08
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy,	Mar 03 04:08
DaemonFC	derrr	Mar 03 04:08
oiaohm	Or like one war game where austrlaian typo and switch stelth to russian attack sub	Mar 03 04:08
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 04:08
Chips_B_Malroy	because if they do not, and the USA fails economically, there will be a void	Mar 03 04:08
oiaohm	Kinda caused usa panic.	Mar 03 04:08
oiaohm	Russian attack sub in middle of USA fleet.	Mar 03 04:08
DaemonFC	oiaohm, As long as they're in international waters, it's not a legal issue	Mar 03 04:09
oiaohm	It what you call sonar profile mapping can only been done while running fully silent.	Mar 03 04:09
DaemonFC	it's a pissing contest	Mar 03 04:09
oiaohm	Australian waters at the time DaemonFC	Mar 03 04:09
DaemonFC	if they come within 200 miles of our coast, we should send a torpedo plane	Mar 03 04:09
DaemonFC	see if that wakes them up	Mar 03 04:09
oiaohm	Middle of fleet and lined up on the aircraft carrior its kinda too late.	Mar 03 04:10
DaemonFC	if they're in our waters, they should be given an ultimatum to turn away at once	Mar 03 04:10
oiaohm	By the time the USA boats saw the sub the aircaft carrrior could have been bottom.	Mar 03 04:10
DaemonFC	if that's not heeded, they should be torpedoed	Mar 03 04:10
Chips_B_Malroy	remember the old classic games, sub simulators? 688, subwar 2020,	Mar 03 04:10
oiaohm	You fleets means to detect the old school subs steelth running is poor. DaemonFC	Mar 03 04:11
Chips_B_Malroy	DOS days	Mar 03 04:11
oiaohm	A nuke sub could not get that close on a USA fleet.	Mar 03 04:11
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Not many countries use diesel anymore	Mar 03 04:11
DaemonFC	they're still a threat	Mar 03 04:11
Chips_B_Malroy	they a target mostly	Mar 03 04:12
oiaohm	Basically we are still running them because there is an advantage.	Mar 03 04:12
Chips_B_Malroy	just like that Argentine battleship in the Falklands ware	Mar 03 04:12
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, The nature of a diesel submarine lets them exploit the fact that they're more quiet underwater running from batteries	Mar 03 04:12
Chips_B_Malroy	*war	Mar 03 04:13
DaemonFC	and in some situations that can make them more dangerous	Mar 03 04:13
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, but the German WW2 subs could only run a few minutes on batties underwater	Mar 03 04:13
oiaohm	Also its size issue.	Mar 03 04:13
Chips_B_Malroy	maybe 6	Mar 03 04:13
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Underwater, they can only run on batteries a matter of hours	Mar 03 04:14
DaemonFC	then they have to surface and run the engines	Mar 03 04:14
oiaohm	Not exactly.	Mar 03 04:14
oiaohm	Australian subs can run engines under water for so long.	Mar 03 04:14
Chips_B_Malroy	snorkel was developed by Germans in 43 or 44	Mar 03 04:14
Chips_B_Malroy	thinking 44	Mar 03 04:14
oiaohm	And its more than a few hours.	Mar 03 04:14
oiaohm	Since the battry upgrades	Mar 03 04:14
oiaohm	Its almost 48 hours.	Mar 03 04:15
Chips_B_Malroy	Das Boot, good flix	Mar 03 04:15
Chips_B_Malroy	The Boat	Mar 03 04:15
oiaohm	On battiries.	Mar 03 04:15
oiaohm	Yes you can get a very long way when you can silent run for 48 hours.	Mar 03 04:16
oiaohm	Enought to completely breach the USA fleet protection system and get out of there.	Mar 03 04:16
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] LOL :D "I know I'm a carpenter, but I've never liked installing windows." - via @jesus		Mar 03 04:17
Chips_B_Malroy	I like religous quotes, used some on M$ watch	Mar 03 04:18
Chips_B_Malroy	You see, religion is a strange thing, it can say whatever you want it to. People have used it, and twisted it in history for as long as there has been religion. Religion is a form of control. But its was intended to be a guide to living.	Mar 03 04:23
Chips_B_Malroy	And that would probably include most religions.	Mar 03 04:24
oiaohm	Basically the Australian subs had a lot of after market work in the Australian ship yards. Fixing the noise problems. Normally australian mil order we want the chassy fix it after.	Mar 03 04:24
Chips_B_Malroy	twine and duct tape most likely	Mar 03 04:24
DaemonFC	Ubuntu also dropped Ekiga	Mar 03 04:25
DaemonFC	hmmm	Mar 03 04:25
Chips_B_Malroy	So DaenonFC, you trying Buntu now? But then you seem to try them all don't you? Somehow, I think you really not the the MS fanboi that I orginally thought you were.	Mar 03 04:27
oiaohm	No Chips_B_Malroy Carbon firber sheets.and other matterials to alter hull shape and redoing engines completely.	Mar 03 04:27
Chips_B_Malroy	oiaohm> good anwser, I just couldn't resist the troll there	Mar 03 04:28
oiaohm	Worst was the insanty of the maker. To hand make the props.	Mar 03 04:28
Chips_B_Malroy	balance	Mar 03 04:28
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 03 04:28
oiaohm	Not one was right.	Mar 03 04:28
Chips_B_Malroy	they go out of balance	Mar 03 04:29
oiaohm	Out of balance when new.	Mar 03 04:29
Chips_B_Malroy	even a flywheel on an auto engine needs balance	Mar 03 04:29
oiaohm	You don't stand a chance of an engine running well with that.	Mar 03 04:29
Chips_B_Malroy	the whole drivetrain for that matter	Mar 03 04:30
Chips_B_Malroy	but what will Australia ever need with subs?	Mar 03 04:30
oiaohm	We have the new ones already on order.	Mar 03 04:30
Chips_B_Malroy	its just an expense, isn't it?	Mar 03 04:30
oiaohm	For 2022 to start opertional usage	Mar 03 04:31
oiaohm	Those include cruse missles.	Mar 03 04:31
Chips_B_Malroy	its not like China, Russia, or the USA is going invade it	Mar 03 04:31
oiaohm	Our current are just sea killer.	Mar 03 04:32
oiaohm	And they do match up to USA nuke class in performance.	Mar 03 04:32
oiaohm	To be correct mostly out performs.	Mar 03 04:32
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, I was a bit out of line, I just don't see why Australia needs subs at all	Mar 03 04:33
oiaohm	the replacement project will be designed as well as built in Australia. << Yep this time we are not trusting another country to build anything.	Mar 03 04:34
oiaohm	We need them when we are up in the island north of australia	Mar 03 04:34
oiaohm	You do cross china subs up there.	Mar 03 04:34
Chips_B_Malroy	WW2, yes u did	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	and indernesias	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	We still do.	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	When we go up there to sort out like timor	Mar 03 04:35
Chips_B_Malroy	or are you referring to the crisis in East Timor?	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	When we go in to deal with the criseis that happen in our area we need the subs.	Mar 03 04:35
oiaohm	They also have to be able to operate in shallow water.	Mar 03 04:36
oiaohm	Lot shallower than the usa one can operate in effectively.	Mar 03 04:36
Chips_B_Malroy	So, even Austrilia is the local policeman. Now don't take this wrong, but I am thankful that somebody did this.	Mar 03 04:36
Chips_B_Malroy	But it does cost money	Mar 03 04:37
oiaohm	We are liked by a lot of countries in the area.	Mar 03 04:37
oiaohm	We get mining and oil rights out of doign the policeman role.	Mar 03 04:37
Chips_B_Malroy	I know, and believe it or not, Aussies are liked over here too	Mar 03 04:37
oiaohm	So it really not costing us much.	Mar 03 04:38
Chips_B_Malroy	well respected here	Mar 03 04:38
oiaohm	Without doing the role less access.	Mar 03 04:38
Chips_B_Malroy	maybe you right, Australia should arm more, as USA is going have to cut back	Mar 03 04:38
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canberra_class_landing_helicopter_dock We are shaping our fleet for the jobs we do.	Mar 03 04:39
oiaohm	Like what is the point of an aircraft cairror against island based problems.	Mar 03 04:39
Chips_B_Malroy	I don't see the Brits being able to do more, they done enough. They in the same fix as USA	Mar 03 04:39
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Canberra class landing helicopter dock - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 55.23 KB	Mar 03 04:39
phIRCe-BNc	Like what is the point of an aircraft cairror against island based problems.	Mar 03 04:39
phIRCe-BNc	I don't see the Brits being able to do more, they done enough. They in the same fix as USA	Mar 03 04:39
oiaohm	So we are building helicopter class.	Mar 03 04:39
Chips_B_Malroy	Timor is a nasty religous problem	Mar 03 04:40
oiaohm	People don't understand australian good releations with china.	Mar 03 04:40
oiaohm	Timor is a dispical case in our history.	Mar 03 04:40
oiaohm	6 of our people got killed there and then the goverment of australia covered it up.	Mar 03 04:41
oiaohm	Due to not having the force to protect us.	Mar 03 04:41
oiaohm	This is why are fleet will increase in force so that don't happen in our local area again.	Mar 03 04:42
oiaohm	Basically taking east timor recoverd a war grave.	Mar 03 04:42
oiaohm	china funny enough has fueled our warships when a few problems in our area have happened.	Mar 03 04:43
oiaohm	China knows there forces would be hated and ours are liked so help out where they can.	Mar 03 04:44
Chips_B_Malroy	China has in some ways come around, yes	Mar 03 04:44
Chips_B_Malroy	your country did great things in that region in WW2, people remember	Mar 03 04:44
oiaohm	Yet most would be shocked if they knew what those australian commanders had to pay.	Mar 03 04:45
Chips_B_Malroy	Just like in the Philiphines, Americans are most remembered as good	Mar 03 04:45
DaemonFC	That was a real bad time to be Chinese	Mar 03 04:45
DaemonFC	Japanese invasion on one side	Mar 03 04:46
DaemonFC	Communist uprising on the other	Mar 03 04:46
DaemonFC	you ever notice how the Communists say they're going to give everyone a better life and that all will be equal	Mar 03 04:46
DaemonFC	and then you end up with a state like the PRC	Mar 03 04:47
Chips_B_Malroy	In Nam, the Aussies were the very best troops	Mar 03 04:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] ok, geeks, who's used #smack with #xmpp #pubsub? I'm getting desperate with stuckage		Mar 03 04:47
DaemonFC	whereas Taiwan is basically free	Mar 03 04:47
oiaohm	Kokoda Track commander got caught marsheled and complete dismissed never got a anything from the goverment.	Mar 03 04:47
oiaohm	Because he failed to hold ground.	Mar 03 04:47
oiaohm	Almost ever great australian event is followed by a court masheling of someone.	Mar 03 04:48
DaemonFC	if a Communist government is so great, why did tens of thousands of Hungarians die trying to overthrow it in 1956?	Mar 03 04:48
DaemonFC	why did the East Germans shoot so many people trying to get across into West Germany?	Mar 03 04:48
oiaohm	What makes our troops so good in that part of theiring training is thinking on feet not just dumbly following orders.	Mar 03 04:49
DaemonFC	and you still have assholes and student movement assholes talking about enacting a "Socialist" government like it wouldn't turn into what it has everywhere else every time one was set up	Mar 03 04:49
DaemonFC	oiaohm, clear chain of command helps with that a lot	Mar 03 04:50
oiaohm	No ours are designed to cope with chain of command shattered.	Mar 03 04:50
oiaohm	To reform regroup and keep on going.	Mar 03 04:50
DaemonFC	every soldier should be able to take over if there is no higher ranking one around	Mar 03 04:50
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, DaemonFC, let me ask you and others this: why did not Communism work?	Mar 03 04:50
oiaohm	Really that is the problem.	Mar 03 04:51
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Because you always get a totalitarian and corrupt state	Mar 03 04:51
DaemonFC	not one that lives up to socialist "ideals"	Mar 03 04:51
oiaohm	Lot of cases Australian forces can scatter with chain of commard unknown keep on fighting.	Mar 03 04:51
Chips_B_Malroy	by why?	Mar 03 04:51
DaemonFC	the state owns everything and that makes it easier for them to oppress people	Mar 03 04:51
oiaohm	then work out chain of command after battle is over.	Mar 03 04:51
oiaohm	Chain of commad is only important to get from point a to point b for them.	Mar 03 04:52
oiaohm	Not part of the battle.	Mar 03 04:52
Chips_B_Malroy	I only partially like DaemonFC's anwser	Mar 03 04:52
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, The idea of the "President For Life" should offend any true socialist	Mar 03 04:52
DaemonFC	much less the fact that there still are very rich people, usually the government officials who wanted to "equalize" everything	Mar 03 04:53
Chips_B_Malroy	where communism and socialism fail, I think, is the fact that there will always be a rich class	Mar 03 04:53
oiaohm	DaemonFC: Take this even jeep on road force appears in front of you. Australian forces can and do choose to scatter. At this point knowing where the commander of unit is can be impossiable.	Mar 03 04:53
oiaohm	Instead force has to be able to operate without a fixed leader.	Mar 03 04:54
DaemonFC	I don't think that a CEO of a company should be allowed to make more than 10 times his average-paid worker	Mar 03 04:54
DaemonFC	I think that should be a statute law	Mar 03 04:54
DaemonFC	Japan does something like that I think	Mar 03 04:55
oiaohm	Also unlike the USA our f18 are also command and control.	Mar 03 04:55
Chips_B_Malroy	In Soviet Russia that rich class became the ruling class, and then the black market	Mar 03 04:55
oiaohm	The reason why f35 as so as they get here will have to be refited.	Mar 03 04:55
oiaohm	so they can be upgraded for ground troup control.	Mar 03 04:55
DaemonFC	oiaohm, No separate AWACS for that?	Mar 03 04:55
oiaohm	We have Awacs	Mar 03 04:56
DaemonFC	Iran does that, uses our old F-14 Tomcat for AWACS since they're out of ordnance for them	Mar 03 04:56
oiaohm	Our system is designed to keep on going even if that is lost.	Mar 03 04:56
oiaohm	Same with ground based command and control.	Mar 03 04:56
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Iran also has to cannibalize other F-14s for parts	Mar 03 04:56
Chips_B_Malroy	So if communism is total control (of all property) and captilism is controlled by a more and more controlling government, what is the differnence?	Mar 03 04:57
DaemonFC	so they don't have many of them left	Mar 03 04:57
DaemonFC	they don't have an effective fighter screen	Mar 03 04:57
oiaohm	Our forces are designed to reform up command structs.	Mar 03 04:57
oiaohm	All fighters can take command and control.	Mar 03 04:57
oiaohm	Ie fighter jets.	Mar 03 04:57
oiaohm	They are setup for it.	Mar 03 04:57
DaemonFC	Iran would be wise to look into purchasing more updated fighter planes from other countries	Mar 03 04:58
Chips_B_Malroy	DaemonFC> I get it, the Aussies don;t need an effective fighter screen, for that they have us and Britian, Canada, if needed	Mar 03 04:58
DaemonFC	something that it can maintain for a while and defend itself with	Mar 03 04:58
oiaohm	The can also operate an airborn mesh command and control.	Mar 03 04:58
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Probably	Mar 03 04:58
DaemonFC	Mutual defense treaties ftw!	Mar 03 04:58
oiaohm	So take out 1 the mesh stays operating as if nothing happend.	Mar 03 04:58
DaemonFC	they can sit there and criticize us for maintaining a fighting force that will end up defending them if the time comes	Mar 03 04:59
DaemonFC	while they save all kinds of money by not having to protect themselves	Mar 03 04:59
Chips_B_Malroy	the Aussie military is mostly for limited regional disputes like that nasty religious one in Timor	Mar 03 04:59
oiaohm	Awacs are not much use in areas like Timor	Mar 03 05:00
Chips_B_Malroy	DaemonFC> be nice to the Aussies, they helped us in Nam, in most of the wars we fought too	Mar 03 05:00
DaemonFC	most of the world only maintains enough of an army to stop an invasion from their neighbors	Mar 03 05:00
oiaohm	Does not get close enough to get ground data.	Mar 03 05:00
DaemonFC	you look at the Arab countries and see that in play	Mar 03 05:00
oiaohm	We most don't have to.	Mar 03 05:00
Chips_B_Malroy	true	Mar 03 05:00
oiaohm	Most countries look at australian mill training and go crap.	Mar 03 05:01
oiaohm	Don't go there.	Mar 03 05:01
Chips_B_Malroy	its tuff	Mar 03 05:01
Chips_B_Malroy	very	Mar 03 05:01
oiaohm	Part of there training is how to use the native toxins.	Mar 03 05:01
DaemonFC	native to Australia?	Mar 03 05:01
oiaohm	Tasteless very good human killers.	Mar 03 05:01
oiaohm	Yep native to Australia	Mar 03 05:01
DaemonFC	1. How's that going to help on foreign soil? 2. I'd rather just shoot the other guy. :)	Mar 03 05:01
oiaohm	And lots of the poisons there are no cures for.	Mar 03 05:02
DaemonFC	yeah	Mar 03 05:02
DaemonFC	lots of things in Australia that can kill you	Mar 03 05:02
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 05:02
oiaohm	Come on to australia be read for natural bio warfare.	Mar 03 05:02
Chips_B_Malroy	got them wierd kane frogs there too	Mar 03 05:02
Chips_B_Malroy	toads	Mar 03 05:03
oiaohm	There posion is nothing.	Mar 03 05:03
oiaohm	We are fruit here that some times it will kill you sometimes it will blind you and other times you can eat it.	Mar 03 05:03
oiaohm	And problem they all look the same.	Mar 03 05:03
oiaohm	So yes we can truly do the wicked witch on forces here.	Mar 03 05:04
Chips_B_Malroy	the supermarket is hell I bet	Mar 03 05:04
oiaohm	No not in supermarket.	Mar 03 05:04
Chips_B_Malroy	I prefer the buffet in Vegas myself	Mar 03 05:04
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Aren't those the frog with the tooth that poisons you?	Mar 03 05:04
Chips_B_Malroy	^better	Mar 03 05:04
*DaemonFC curls up		Mar 03 05:04
oiaohm	We have some toxins if you water crops with them any one to eat will die as well.	Mar 03 05:05
oiaohm	Nothing like having too many bio weapons.	Mar 03 05:05
oiaohm	We don't have nukes but we have the next best thing.	Mar 03 05:05
DaemonFC	we have brown recluse spiders and water moccasins	Mar 03 05:05
DaemonFC	:D	Mar 03 05:06
oiaohm	Everyone has heard of the sidney spider.	Mar 03 05:06
Chips_B_Malroy	there is nothing like a good nuke, its why the alatoyah wants them	Mar 03 05:06
DaemonFC	Indiana's climate is too crazy for anything too awful to take up residence	Mar 03 05:06
oiaohm	One point its releations are all accross australia.	Mar 03 05:06
oiaohm	And the sidney one has the lightest posion.	Mar 03 05:06
DaemonFC	oiaohm, How harsh is the winter there?	Mar 03 05:06
oiaohm	Depends on where.	Mar 03 05:07
oiaohm	Where I am its mostly what winter	Mar 03 05:07
DaemonFC	move someplace with a good harsh winter	Mar 03 05:07
DaemonFC	fixes a lot of that crap	Mar 03 05:07
Chips_B_Malroy	yep	Mar 03 05:07
oiaohm	Sidney has a winter without snow fall.	Mar 03 05:07
oiaohm	But its a winter	Mar 03 05:08
Chips_B_Malroy	so lots of poisonous snakes and bugs, if no show	Mar 03 05:08
Chips_B_Malroy	^snow	Mar 03 05:08
Chips_B_Malroy	if its wet	Mar 03 05:08
Chips_B_Malroy	Florida had that	Mar 03 05:08
oiaohm	We have poisonous spiders and bugs that have no problems with snow	Mar 03 05:09
Chips_B_Malroy	corel snakes, mocasins, etc	Mar 03 05:09
oiaohm	Snakes don't like it.	Mar 03 05:09
Chips_B_Malroy	sure, even the eastern rattlesnake can survive in New York State	Mar 03 05:09
Chips_B_Malroy	its snows there every winter too	Mar 03 05:10
Chips_B_Malroy	its desert here, but we have them, only the desert supports less live per acre	Mar 03 05:11
DaemonFC	here too, annoying but it keeps the kudzu vine out of Indiana	Mar 03 05:11
DaemonFC	that shit is tearing up the south	Mar 03 05:11
Chips_B_Malroy	Now Florida, had them everywhere, especially around water.	Mar 03 05:11
DaemonFC	brilliant government idea to prevent soil erosion	Mar 03 05:11
oiaohm	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Death_Adder << these mostly will live anywhere.	Mar 03 05:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Common Death Adder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 22.97 KB	Mar 03 05:11
*sebsebseb has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)		Mar 03 05:12
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudzu#United_States	Mar 03 05:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Kudzu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 94.04 KB	Mar 03 05:12
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 05:12
Chips_B_Malroy	but you know, we could have been discussing MS and the 5% increase in cost and what that meant? Instead of this	Mar 03 05:13
DaemonFC	5% increase?	Mar 03 05:13
DaemonFC	on what?	Mar 03 05:13
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, DaemnoFC, it was b4 you got here, MS says it going spend 5% ;more this year as costs	Mar 03 05:14
Chips_B_Malroy	but really don't say where	Mar 03 05:14
DaemonFC	with the idea being investments, right?	Mar 03 05:14
oiaohm	They have to start spending to build the next windows OS	Mar 03 05:14
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 05:14
Chips_B_Malroy	http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-03-02/microsoft-says-operating-expenses-may-rise-5-in-2011-update2-.html	Mar 03 05:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft Says Operating Expenses May Rise 5% in 2011 (Update3) - BusinessWeek .::. Size~: 46.28 KB	Mar 03 05:15
Chips_B_Malroy	maybe	Mar 03 05:15
DaemonFC	changing the wallpaper and switching around the interface a little costs that much?	Mar 03 05:15
Chips_B_Malroy	not a bad thought, actually	Mar 03 05:15
oiaohm	Testing to make sure you screwed nothing up with networking and the like. DaemonFC	Mar 03 05:15
oiaohm	Costs a bit.	Mar 03 05:16
Chips_B_Malroy	instead we talk about the Aussie military	Mar 03 05:16
oiaohm	5 percent increase in expence at this time would basically normal.	Mar 03 05:17
oiaohm	Just due to where MS is in the OS development cycle.	Mar 03 05:17
Chips_B_Malroy	maybe it cost extra to bribe companies to sue google?	Mar 03 05:17
oiaohm	Now if it was 10 percent we would be wondering where the extra 5 percent was going.	Mar 03 05:17
Chips_B_Malroy	or to get OEM's to install Windows CE instead of GNU/Linux or Chrome on ARM	Mar 03 05:18
oiaohm	Not enough for that.	Mar 03 05:18
DaemonFC	Windows CE has never helped sales on any hardware	Mar 03 05:18
oiaohm	Heck I had one stupid idiot say that windows 7 starter was for arm chips.	Mar 03 05:18
Chips_B_Malroy	oh, come on, Windows CE is god awful good	Mar 03 05:18
oiaohm	Since it is sold for netbooks.	Mar 03 05:19
Chips_B_Malroy	lol	Mar 03 05:19
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Tell that to Sega	Mar 03 05:19
DaemonFC	look what wondrous WinCE games came out on the DreamCast	Mar 03 05:19
oiaohm	Really I am waiting for fanotify	Mar 03 05:19
oiaohm	In Linux kernel.	Mar 03 05:19
oiaohm	When Linux OEMS can standard selling real-time scanning with Linux machines.	Mar 03 05:20
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, The games on WinCE were so limited that it ruined the game	Mar 03 05:20
Chips_B_Malroy	a system that every release is not compatable with the last one, WinMO	Mar 03 05:20
DaemonFC	developing for the native OS was the only way to go	Mar 03 05:20
oiaohm	WinMO is basically no more as OS.	Mar 03 05:20
oiaohm	Its now just a skin for Windows CE	Mar 03 05:20
oiaohm	Now the question is how long before Windows CE goes by by as well.	Mar 03 05:20
Chips_B_Malroy	So, do I confuse CE with WinMO. or are they about the same thing?	Mar 03 05:20
oiaohm	Windows Mobile 7 has a Windows CE core	Mar 03 05:21
Chips_B_Malroy	yes	Mar 03 05:21
oiaohm	Before that it was its own OS.	Mar 03 05:21
oiaohm	Basically MS completely axed a department.	Mar 03 05:21
Chips_B_Malroy	It lives again to compete only with Linux or Chrome Linux on ARM	Mar 03 05:22
Chips_B_Malroy	Its the XP trick of making OEM's put it	Mar 03 05:22
oiaohm	And its losing.	Mar 03 05:22
Chips_B_Malroy	I think it will	Mar 03 05:22
oiaohm	XP had applications.	Mar 03 05:22
oiaohm	CE really does not.	Mar 03 05:23
Chips_B_Malroy	but its not set in stone yet	Mar 03 05:23
oiaohm	XP works because makers can sell items Like anti-viruses as well to make more moeny.	Mar 03 05:23
Chips_B_Malroy	well, I am not so sure of that	Mar 03 05:23
Chips_B_Malroy	but this is an interesting story that should unfold before the end of the year	Mar 03 05:24
oiaohm	Yep reason why I want to see the out come of fanotify.	Mar 03 05:24
oiaohm	Could change the game.	Mar 03 05:24
oiaohm	Pushing crap ware is part of the profit game.	Mar 03 05:24
Chips_B_Malroy	That CE/WInMO cost money, yes. Its not free. Could not care less what M$ spends to save the phone, its dead. What I want, is GNU/Linux on Smartbooks ARM, without M$ twisting the OEM's arms	Mar 03 05:26
Chips_B_Malroy	But what I see is more Gates.	Mar 03 05:26
oiaohm	people say how to you compete with free.	Mar 03 05:27
oiaohm	Simple stack enough crap in adversiting with it that is - value.	Mar 03 05:27
Chips_B_Malroy	more twisted deals, more kickbacks, more NDA's, more patent deals, more corruption from M$, more monopoly to keep Linux and its freedoms from users	Mar 03 05:27
oiaohm	Now when free starts stacking crap with it to take - you have big problems.	Mar 03 05:28
Chips_B_Malroy	and I see Google, not getting it	Mar 03 05:28
oiaohm	Google is not worried.	Mar 03 05:29
oiaohm	They are in the adversting game.	Mar 03 05:29
Chips_B_Malroy	Google is going get it butt kicked, if it does not get down and fight dirty like m$ IS DOING AND go after them	Mar 03 05:29
oiaohm	Google is offering carries kick backs from the app stores.	Mar 03 05:29
Chips_B_Malroy	same with Adobe, they are next, after google	Mar 03 05:29
oiaohm	Google is not what you call playing clean either.	Mar 03 05:29
oiaohm	Google is basically hmm apps store we don't need all that money.	Mar 03 05:30
oiaohm	Here carriers you want a cut.	Mar 03 05:30
Chips_B_Malroy	not even a shade of darkness is google compared to MS	Mar 03 05:30
oiaohm	Really its the smartter move.	Mar 03 05:30
oiaohm	Its the carreir the decides what phones they will buy.	Mar 03 05:30
Chips_B_Malroy	lets hope you right	Mar 03 05:30
oiaohm	And what phones you will offer to the end user.	Mar 03 05:31
oiaohm	So if you can cutt MS off that table MS is out game.	Mar 03 05:31
Chips_B_Malroy	again, could care less about phones, even Ballmer must know by now that MS have completely lost the phone market.	Mar 03 05:31
oiaohm	Smart books	Mar 03 05:31
oiaohm	Note how many people have netbooks with wireless G internet	Mar 03 05:32
Chips_B_Malroy	ARM laptops (smartbooks) are the only game left for CE/WinMO	Mar 03 05:32
Chips_B_Malroy	the only reason to continue that	Mar 03 05:32
oiaohm	Problem is phone and netbook market are crossing.	Mar 03 05:32
oiaohm	And its only a matter of time until that scales up.	Mar 03 05:32
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, usb 3g, agreed, smartbooks, going be big	Mar 03 05:33
oiaohm	Now how long before people only want to use 1 OS.	Mar 03 05:33
Chips_B_Malroy	its the only reason for MS to continue WinMO	Mar 03 05:33
oiaohm	Ie same Os on phone PC and notebook.	Mar 03 05:33
oiaohm	Yep MS is trying to slow attack.	Mar 03 05:33
oiaohm	But I don't see WinMO as going to do anything to slow it.	Mar 03 05:34
Chips_B_Malroy	no, they trying to keep the desktop	Mar 03 05:34
Chips_B_Malroy	same plan as always	Mar 03 05:34
oiaohm	Linux at moment wants the embemded market.	Mar 03 05:34
oiaohm	If it can get that. It could over double the developers they have.	Mar 03 05:35
Chips_B_Malroy	what you don't what Vista??? Ok, we give you XP for cheap on Netbooks in USA(intels). They will do the same, are doing the same, with CE/WinMO on ARM Smartbooks	Mar 03 05:35
oiaohm	Now developers are life blood to open source.	Mar 03 05:35
oiaohm	Problem is biggest makers of phones have no interesting in CE/WinMo	Mar 03 05:36
oiaohm	They don't even make phones with it.	Mar 03 05:36
Chips_B_Malroy	Phones, yes	Mar 03 05:36
oiaohm	And the phone providers will be looking to enter the smartbook market.	Mar 03 05:36
Chips_B_Malroy	phone we aree that MS has lost it	Mar 03 05:36
oiaohm	and most likely push anyone else out way.	Mar 03 05:36
oiaohm	Ie you want our phones buy our smartbooks.	Mar 03 05:37
Chips_B_Malroy	the droid got them	Mar 03 05:37
oiaohm	So controlling from carrior again.	Mar 03 05:37
Chips_B_Malroy	google	Mar 03 05:37
oiaohm	I can see MS trying to win a lot of anti-trust cases.	Mar 03 05:37
Chips_B_Malroy	MS is still on plan A	Mar 03 05:38
oiaohm	Because all the old dirty cards MS uses are now being used by everyone else.	Mar 03 05:38
Chips_B_Malroy	make sure Windows is installed on every computer including ARM. Plan A	Mar 03 05:38
oiaohm	And attack by proxy.	Mar 03 05:38
oiaohm	Recent attack on google ms was forced to come clean.	Mar 03 05:39
Chips_B_Malroy	No, I disaagree that everyone else sinks to MS levels and plays the same cards. Google is not, and even IBM did not	Mar 03 05:39
Chips_B_Malroy	If fact, very very few companies do	Mar 03 05:40
oiaohm	Google is playing some of the same.	Mar 03 05:40
oiaohm	Like direct deals with carrers.	Mar 03 05:41
oiaohm	MS did that early on.	Mar 03 05:41
Chips_B_Malroy	by coming clean, you mean MS was finially forced to admitt its fault after how many denials?	Mar 03 05:41
Chips_B_Malroy	direct deals with carriers is nothing like funding 3rd party companies to sue or to attack	Mar 03 05:42
Chips_B_Malroy	one is a direct business deal, in public, the other underhanded	Mar 03 05:42
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Apparently Canonical will be caching downloaded MP3s locally	Mar 03 05:43
Chips_B_Malroy	you are dealing with those who push the envelope, legally,	Mar 03 05:43
DaemonFC	so future buyers get that file from Canonical	Mar 03 05:43
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Chips_B_Malroy	Google need s to go after them	Mar 03 05:44
oiaohm	Not really Chips_B_Malroy	Mar 03 05:44
Chips_B_Malroy	we will see, i hope you right oiaohm	Mar 03 05:44
oiaohm	You know the one problem of attacking google with the EU what happens if you lose	Mar 03 05:44
oiaohm	EU courts don't take too kindly to having there time wasted Chips_B_Malroy	Mar 03 05:45
Chips_B_Malroy	they wants fines	Mar 03 05:45
Chips_B_Malroy	but, heck, I like that they fine MS. Anything that saps MS of stength is good	Mar 03 05:46
oiaohm	And I don't think google has done anything they can be fined over.	Mar 03 05:46
oiaohm	All google has todo is win then ask why did MS accuse us of this.	Mar 03 05:47
*Thrae (~ircuser@generalmx-1-pt.tunnel.tserv13.ash1.ipv6.he.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 05:47
oiaohm	With the words following are they doing this.	Mar 03 05:47
Chips_B_Malroy	there you might be wrong and yet so right. If money passes the right hands, you can be convicted of most anything	Mar 03 05:47
Chips_B_Malroy	do you know any company that would stoop so low	Mar 03 05:48
oiaohm	EU courts when it comes to anti competion where money bribes don't work	Mar 03 05:48
Chips_B_Malroy	like who would, might be behind SCO?	Mar 03 05:48
oiaohm	Novell	Mar 03 05:48
Chips_B_Malroy	we will see if bribes, gifts, swag, favors, etc. work with the EU. that is still to be determined	Mar 03 05:49
oiaohm	Novell made huge profits from Novell netware. Linux basically gutted them.	Mar 03 05:49
Chips_B_Malroy	well, I think it was partially Windows that also gutted them	Mar 03 05:49
Chips_B_Malroy	partly	Mar 03 05:50
oiaohm	No Novell netware was being gutted by Linux before MS released windows 2000	Mar 03 05:50
oiaohm	w	Mar 03 05:50
oiaohm	Windows 2000 just cleaned up the straglers.	Mar 03 05:50
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, they were on the decline since the Dos days mostly	Mar 03 05:50
oiaohm	Novell historicly is a closed source company.	Mar 03 05:51
Chips_B_Malroy	NT4 I think got em	Mar 03 05:51
oiaohm	No NT4 did not effect Novell market share	Mar 03 05:51
Chips_B_Malroy	96 wasn't it?	Mar 03 05:52
oiaohm	Novell run stably	Mar 03 05:52
Chips_B_Malroy	Novell Netware 4.11?	Mar 03 05:52
oiaohm	NT4 kinda would barf	Mar 03 05:52
oiaohm	I would have to wikipedia the dates.	Mar 03 05:52
Chips_B_Malroy	but if it could do what netware did, and was included in NT4, like the Netscape vs IE, that was the beginning of the end for Novell	Mar 03 05:53
Chips_B_Malroy	didn't Novell sue MS for ripping off its code in NT4 and win?	Mar 03 05:54
Chips_B_Malroy	wikipedia	Mar 03 05:54
Chips_B_Malroy	I did not look	Mar 03 05:54
Chips_B_Malroy	but my memory is not always good	Mar 03 05:54
Chips_B_Malroy	whatever you and I think of NT4, it was a killer for Novell Netware and IBM OS/2	Mar 03 05:55
Chips_B_Malroy	1996	Mar 03 05:56
oiaohm	No 2000 was the killer to netware	Mar 03 05:56
Chips_B_Malroy	I think	Mar 03 05:56
Chips_B_Malroy	ok the start of the killer	Mar 03 05:56
oiaohm	All the way up to windows 2000 netware rules here.	Mar 03 05:56
oiaohm	Followed by Linux with samba.	Mar 03 05:56
oiaohm	Then NT4 a distance last.	Mar 03 05:56
Chips_B_Malroy	links please	Mar 03 05:56
oiaohm	There was a simple reason.	Mar 03 05:57
oiaohm	NT4 user management suxed.	Mar 03 05:57
oiaohm	Even worse than ldap.	Mar 03 05:57
Chips_B_Malroy	you maybe right, but memory thinks different.	Mar 03 05:57
oiaohm	Basically the introduction of ADS caused MS to take off.	Mar 03 05:57
Chips_B_Malroy	Gates was not afriad to "borrow" code	Mar 03 05:57
oiaohm	Linux has not provided a equal to ADS yet.	Mar 03 05:58
oiaohm	Neither has apple.	Mar 03 05:58
oiaohm	That is why both OS's have failed to dominate.	Mar 03 05:58
oiaohm	Also before ADS NT4 really did not scale in large networks either.	Mar 03 06:00
oiaohm	Both samba and novell network could.	Mar 03 06:00
Chips_B_Malroy	so what does this have to do with NT4 and Netware?	Mar 03 06:00
oiaohm	Netware was design to scale to multi locations.	Mar 03 06:00
oiaohm	Including replication between locations.	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	I think networking was in NT$	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	NT4	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	Not multi server replication.	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	borrowed, code from Novell	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	NT4 only supported PDC and BDC	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	NT4 was multiusers	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	Ie 2 severs	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	If you had 2 locations.	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	fine	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	If you had 3 screwed	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	I ran it	Mar 03 06:01
Chips_B_Malroy	I remember it	Mar 03 06:01
oiaohm	Same	Mar 03 06:02
Chips_B_Malroy	ok	Mar 03 06:02
oiaohm	Both samba and Netware out scaled NT4	Mar 03 06:02
oiaohm	Samba scaryly so.	Mar 03 06:02
Chips_B_Malroy	all I am saying, is that the code stealing and killing of Novell went back further	Mar 03 06:02
Chips_B_Malroy	than 2000	Mar 03 06:02
oiaohm	The stealing before 2000 was not a killer move to Novell	Mar 03 06:03
Chips_B_Malroy	it was actually	Mar 03 06:03
oiaohm	To be correct novell used it to force MS to ship Novell support in there clients.	Mar 03 06:03
Chips_B_Malroy	it just took time to kill them	Mar 03 06:03
Chips_B_Malroy	just like with Netscape	Mar 03 06:03
oiaohm	So windows 3.11 to end of windows ME shipped with perfect support for Novell servers.	Mar 03 06:04
Chips_B_Malroy	ah, that is true	Mar 03 06:04
oiaohm	Thinking Novell was not in the client game.	Mar 03 06:04
oiaohm	They wanted to be only in the server game.	Mar 03 06:04
Chips_B_Malroy	ship Novell support in windows, maybe you right, or not. and maybe that is what I was thinking	Mar 03 06:04
oiaohm	That is what made Novell a sitting duck.	Mar 03 06:04
Chips_B_Malroy	No Oiaohm	Mar 03 06:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] Using Songbird 1.4.3 on Ubuntu, great extensions, features, powerful library, and recognizes my Sansa. Few bugs. http://bit.ly/bOEFou 4/5		Mar 03 06:05
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Skyzim \| Latest Downloads .::. Size~: 25.28 KB	Mar 03 06:05
Chips_B_Malroy	that is not what made Novell a sitting duck	Mar 03 06:05
oiaohm	Novell pre 2000 made no client side OS's	Mar 03 06:05
Chips_B_Malroy	it was the money	Mar 03 06:05
oiaohm	Even until they aquired SUSE they still did not.	Mar 03 06:05
Chips_B_Malroy	think of it this way	Mar 03 06:06
oiaohm	This ment when MS pulled support for them. It was over.	Mar 03 06:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] GetDeb is down. sadface :(		Mar 03 06:06
oiaohm	OS/2 fell due to other reasons.	Mar 03 06:06
Chips_B_Malroy	at some point, a piece of software becomes perfected	Mar 03 06:06
Chips_B_Malroy	Netware was not an exception to this rule	Mar 03 06:06
oiaohm	Really it was not perfected.	Mar 03 06:07
Chips_B_Malroy	why can't others perfect it too?	Mar 03 06:07
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, close to it, acceptable, whatever	Mar 03 06:07
oiaohm	Netware was pure server side.	Mar 03 06:07
oiaohm	MS put up a offer that was intergation between server and client.	Mar 03 06:07
Chips_B_Malroy	the point is how many times must we reinvent the wheel?	Mar 03 06:07
oiaohm	Ie Netware lack of control of client left it sitting duck.	Mar 03 06:08
Chips_B_Malroy	Novell Netware did it, now MS does it, and Linux	Mar 03 06:08
oiaohm	So far we have never got the wheel right.	Mar 03 06:08
Chips_B_Malroy	its Netscape all over again	Mar 03 06:08
oiaohm	Everyone sitts back yes we have it perfect.	Mar 03 06:08
oiaohm	Problem is something is missing.	Mar 03 06:09
Chips_B_Malroy	you argue for perfection	Mar 03 06:09
Chips_B_Malroy	but thats not what it was about	Mar 03 06:09
DaemonFC	Netscapre open sourced too late to do them much good	Mar 03 06:09
oiaohm	Really its not reinventing.	Mar 03 06:09
DaemonFC	*Netscape	Mar 03 06:09
Chips_B_Malroy	its was about money, and good enough	Mar 03 06:09
DaemonFC	few of their former employees still work at Mozilla	Mar 03 06:09
oiaohm	core of netware is ldap.	Mar 03 06:09
oiaohm	Core of windows 2000 is ldap	Mar 03 06:09
oiaohm	Its reshaping of the same thing.	Mar 03 06:10
Chips_B_Malroy	borrowed code	Mar 03 06:10
oiaohm	We are trying to get a wheel out of it.	Mar 03 06:10
oiaohm	That works.	Mar 03 06:10
DaemonFC	Netscape should have open sourced after version 3 went out	Mar 03 06:10
Chips_B_Malroy	I wish I still had a link for this	Mar 03 06:11
Chips_B_Malroy	but the guy that made windowsblinds	Mar 03 06:11
Chips_B_Malroy	said	Mar 03 06:11
DaemonFC	WindowBlinds slows Windows down a LOT	Mar 03 06:11
Chips_B_Malroy	that anyone that made software for windows, that sold well, would get killed by MS, as MS would try to clone it	Mar 03 06:12
Chips_B_Malroy	or give it away for free	Mar 03 06:12
DaemonFC	I've never been big on bloat, I used XP with BlackBox for a long time	Mar 03 06:12
Chips_B_Malroy	I never used windowsblinds	Mar 03 06:12
Chips_B_Malroy	btw	Mar 03 06:12
DaemonFC	it was so much lighter and faster than Explorer	Mar 03 06:12
DaemonFC	Explorer is not particularly well designed and leaks tons of memory	Mar 03 06:13
Chips_B_Malroy	he made galactic empires, for OS/2 also, Brian something	Mar 03 06:13
DaemonFC	at least through XP it just keeps growing	Mar 03 06:13
*Diablo-D3 (~diablo@pool-64-222-232-11.port.east.myfairpoint.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 06:13
Chips_B_Malroy	but the link is gone from history forever	Mar 03 06:13
DaemonFC	Why would anyone have ported anything to OS/2?	Mar 03 06:14
DaemonFC	it was DOA the day Windows NT came out	Mar 03 06:14
Chips_B_Malroy	cause it was an superior OS at the time	Mar 03 06:15
Chips_B_Malroy	and NT did not come out till later	Mar 03 06:15
Chips_B_Malroy	as NT was basically OS/2	Mar 03 06:15
Chips_B_Malroy	but IBM messed up royally	Mar 03 06:15
DaemonFC	more people probably use Linux now than used OS/2 at any time	Mar 03 06:16
Chips_B_Malroy	cost 3x as much as 95	Mar 03 06:16
DaemonFC	yeah, lots of businesses standardized employee desktops on Windows 95	Mar 03 06:16
Chips_B_Malroy	used 3x as much memory, which costs major bucks back then	Mar 03 06:16
DaemonFC	cause NT 4 workstations was so expensive	Mar 03 06:16
Chips_B_Malroy	and then, MS controlled the press and attacked IBM without mercy	Mar 03 06:17
Chips_B_Malroy	but OS/2 got 6% of the market back then, which is only something that maybe Linux has done only recently	Mar 03 06:17
DaemonFC	right, Microsoft got IBM to write a fair amount of what became Windows NT for free	Mar 03 06:18
DaemonFC	I'm sure that was always the point	Mar 03 06:18
*jono has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)		Mar 03 06:18
DaemonFC	NT has support for plug-in APIs, Win32 is just one such plug-in	Mar 03 06:18
DaemonFC	It's had POSIX and OS/2 support before, right in the kernel	Mar 03 06:19
Chips_B_Malroy	I think up to 2000 windows still had OS/2 files in it	Mar 03 06:19
DaemonFC	but the POSIX support was POSIX.1 and OS/2 was for Microsoft OS/2 1.2	Mar 03 06:20
DaemonFC	both of which were removed in XP and later	Mar 03 06:20
DaemonFC	yeah, Windows has just enough POSIX support so meet US government requirements	Mar 03 06:20
DaemonFC	now it's provided as Services for UNIX-based Applications	Mar 03 06:21
Chips_B_Malroy	Vista still stole the voice reconiztion feature that OS/2 Version 4 had in 1998. From now on, MS can only steal from Linux and Mac	Mar 03 06:21
Chips_B_Malroy	1998 you had OS/2 with voice controls built in	Mar 03 06:21
Chips_B_Malroy	that is how far MS has put us behind	Mar 03 06:22
DaemonFC	voice recognition on Vista is terrible	Mar 03 06:22
Chips_B_Malroy	yes	Mar 03 06:22
Chips_B_Malroy	nobody uses it	Mar 03 06:22
DaemonFC	notice how 7 doesn't even offer it to you now?	Mar 03 06:22
Chips_B_Malroy	except the malware writters were going gaga	Mar 03 06:23
DaemonFC	it still supports it but you have to go digging to enable it	Mar 03 06:23
Chips_B_Malroy	as in "format C"	Mar 03 06:23
Chips_B_Malroy	2nd thought, maybe thats the best you can do for Vista, is Format C:	Mar 03 06:24
Chips_B_Malroy	y or n?	Mar 03 06:24
Chips_B_Malroy	y	Mar 03 06:24
DaemonFC	that was a Norton scare tactic	Mar 03 06:24
DaemonFC	no malware ever actually did that	Mar 03 06:24
Chips_B_Malroy	Vista is not Malware????	Mar 03 06:25
DaemonFC	there's easier ways that are more guaranteed to attack Windows than hope their voice recognition is on and listening	Mar 03 06:25
Chips_B_Malroy	I have seen malware that was as not as painful as working with Vista is	Mar 03 06:26
DaemonFC	besides, there's virtually no malware out there that is designed to wreck your system anymore	Mar 03 06:26
Chips_B_Malroy	wrong	Mar 03 06:26
DaemonFC	most of it is trying to make money or subvert your system to relay spam	Mar 03 06:26
Chips_B_Malroy	wrong wrong	Mar 03 06:26
DaemonFC	not to jsut mindlessly trash the system	Mar 03 06:26
Chips_B_Malroy	MS updates will trash your system	Mar 03 06:26
Chips_B_Malroy	its the worst kind of malware	Mar 03 06:27
DaemonFC	a very small percentage of malware is designed to trash the system for no reason	Mar 03 06:27
DaemonFC	most of it is written by organized crime, to make money	Mar 03 06:27
Chips_B_Malroy	never trust it	Mar 03 06:27
Chips_B_Malroy	patches on top of patches	Mar 03 06:27
Chips_B_Malroy	at some point the whole rotton house or patches comes down	Mar 03 06:28
DaemonFC	most falls under the class of, worms, trojans, and spyware	Mar 03 06:28
DaemonFC	not viruses as such	Mar 03 06:28
Chips_B_Malroy	I said malware, not viruses specially	Mar 03 06:28
Chips_B_Malroy	update is a trojan	Mar 03 06:28
DaemonFC	can be	Mar 03 06:28
Chips_B_Malroy	and spyware	Mar 03 06:29
DaemonFC	I'd define the activation exploit checker as a trojan horse	Mar 03 06:29
DaemonFC	the user will install it believing it to do something useful to them	Mar 03 06:29
DaemonFC	and it nukes the system	Mar 03 06:29
Chips_B_Malroy	how about Vista having to reboot in the middle of a download or a burn?	Mar 03 06:29
Chips_B_Malroy	because of windows update	Mar 03 06:29
DaemonFC	well, that's not entirely true	Mar 03 06:30
DaemonFC	it gives you a nag screen and a 4 minute countdown to override it and not reboot	Mar 03 06:30
DaemonFC	but yeah, shouldn't ever reboot without you telling it OK	Mar 03 06:30
Chips_B_Malroy	I have had users bring me their computer with Vista on it and turn off windows update because of the stupid rebooting problem	Mar 03 06:30
DaemonFC	turning it off is not best	Mar 03 06:31
DaemonFC	set it to notify but don't download or install	Mar 03 06:31
Chips_B_Malroy	well, not everyone babysits a computer every 4 minutes too	Mar 03 06:31
DaemonFC	well, this way it just tells you when there are updates	Mar 03 06:31
Chips_B_Malroy	you get the idea?	Mar 03 06:31
DaemonFC	you have to OK their download or install	Mar 03 06:31
Chips_B_Malroy	no, you allow updates	Mar 03 06:32
DaemonFC	this is about like most OS updater applets work by default	Mar 03 06:32
Chips_B_Malroy	which most people do	Mar 03 06:32
Chips_B_Malroy	the point is they changed how it worked from XP	Mar 03 06:32
DaemonFC	well, the applet can sit harmlessly there until you want to install them	Mar 03 06:32
Chips_B_Malroy	it can	Mar 03 06:32
Chips_B_Malroy	but somehow	Mar 03 06:33
Chips_B_Malroy	hehe	Mar 03 06:33
Chips_B_Malroy	it hosed	Mar 03 06:33
DaemonFC	With Vista, anything can happen for any reason at any time	Mar 03 06:33
Chips_B_Malroy	why then do so many want me to turn it off for them?	Mar 03 06:33
DaemonFC	it's batshit crazy	Mar 03 06:33
DaemonFC	I'm not defending it	Mar 03 06:33
Chips_B_Malroy	I know	Mar 03 06:34
Chips_B_Malroy	it sucks	Mar 03 06:34
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, They're stupid	Mar 03 06:34
DaemonFC	ignoring updates is a bad thing to do	Mar 03 06:34
Chips_B_Malroy	well, I told them, you need updates	Mar 03 06:34
DaemonFC	they just want the thing to shut up	Mar 03 06:34
Chips_B_Malroy	mostly I think u right there	Mar 03 06:34
Diablo-D3	http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/02/microsoft-cautions-ie-faithful-on-windows-xp-to-avoid-f1-key/	Mar 03 06:34
DaemonFC	did you tell them that most new malware written is exploiting things MS just patched>	Mar 03 06:34
Chips_B_Malroy	I explained too	Mar 03 06:34
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft tells IE faithful on Windows XP to avoid F1 key -- Engadget .::. Size~: 201.47 KB	Mar 03 06:34
*Diablo-D3 facepalms		Mar 03 06:34
DaemonFC	and starts cropping up within a week	Mar 03 06:34
Chips_B_Malroy	Windows can never be secured	Mar 03 06:35
DaemonFC	being current on updates helps	Mar 03 06:35
Chips_B_Malroy	sure, if it dosen't bonk your system	Mar 03 06:35
Chips_B_Malroy	and it does more than MS admitts	Mar 03 06:36
DaemonFC	malware writers are an opportunistic bunch that likes to go after low hanging fruit	Mar 03 06:36
DaemonFC	if you pick up the watermelons, it goes a long way :P	Mar 03 06:36
Chips_B_Malroy	MS is low hanging fruit. but mostly its on the ground half rotten	Mar 03 06:36
Chips_B_Malroy	really, I would actually love for MS to do some good work and try to secure windows.	Mar 03 06:37
DaemonFC	good practices are a good deterrent. Linux distros have usually enforced good practices	Mar 03 06:37
DaemonFC	Ubuntu is changing that in some ways though	Mar 03 06:37
Chips_B_Malroy	yes	Mar 03 06:37
DaemonFC	I fully expect malware to hit Ubuntu users first	Mar 03 06:38
Diablo-D3	http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/JOPWFEMseZ8/A-Second-Lessig-Fair-Use-Video-Is-Suppressed-By-WMG	Mar 03 06:38
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Google FeedBurner .::. Size~: 11.51 KB	Mar 03 06:38
DaemonFC	Ubuntu in the default set up has no firewall set and some AppArmor profiles not installed or enforced	Mar 03 06:38
DaemonFC	bad idea	Mar 03 06:38
Chips_B_Malroy	I think Mac will get hit first	Mar 03 06:39
Chips_B_Malroy	Ubuntu will just get Binked	Mar 03 06:39
Chips_B_Malroy	*Binged	Mar 03 06:40
DaemonFC	the Mac already has a few botnets going	Mar 03 06:40
DaemonFC	set up by trojans	Mar 03 06:40
Chips_B_Malroy	I have some reservations about sudo, but I don't know, it might be as secure as su, just don't know	Mar 03 06:41
Chips_B_Malroy	MS Works for Mac, trojan, remembered reading about it, yes	Mar 03 06:41
DaemonFC	http://linux.slashdot.org/story/09/12/09/2215253/Malware-Found-Hidden-In-Screensaver-On-Gnome-Look	Mar 03 06:41
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Slashdot Linux Story \| Malware Found Hidden In Screensaver On Gnome-Look .::. Size~: 166.71 KB	Mar 03 06:41
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, It's more secure than using the root account	Mar 03 06:42
DaemonFC	for a number of reasons	Mar 03 06:42
Chips_B_Malroy	yes, thought so	Mar 03 06:42
DaemonFC	an attacker knows the name of the root account, but won't know your account name	Mar 03 06:42
DaemonFC	sudo logs who used it, when, and why	Mar 03 06:42
Chips_B_Malroy	so you saying that sudo is better?	Mar 03 06:43
DaemonFC	sudo can be configured to only allow some of root's abilities	Mar 03 06:43
DaemonFC	yes	Mar 03 06:43
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, I thought the other way	Mar 03 06:43
DaemonFC	no, sudo is almost always better than enabling the root account	Mar 03 06:43
DaemonFC	and you can still enter a root shell without the root account activated	Mar 03 06:44
Chips_B_Malroy	I should try Buntu more, but somehow, just cannot try that which comes with Mono and now Bing	Mar 03 06:44
Chips_B_Malroy	its what I tryed to get away from	Mar 03 06:44
Chips_B_Malroy	MS	Mar 03 06:44
DaemonFC	ryan@ryan-desktop:~$ sudo -i	Mar 03 06:45
DaemonFC	root@ryan-desktop:~# su -l ryan	Mar 03 06:45
DaemonFC	ryan@ryan-desktop:~$	Mar 03 06:45
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 06:45
DaemonFC	it's kind of a simulated root login with your environment variables left intact	Mar 03 06:46
Chips_B_Malroy	I always go with the default	Mar 03 06:46
DaemonFC	it's better to use sudo -i if you need to become root	Mar 03 06:46
Chips_B_Malroy	makes one more anon	Mar 03 06:47
DaemonFC	it makes it persistent	Mar 03 06:47
DaemonFC	it's better to stick to sudo and build things with fakeroot	Mar 03 06:47
Chips_B_Malroy	not sure I want that	Mar 03 06:47
Chips_B_Malroy	I thought you hated Ubuntu	Mar 03 06:47
Chips_B_Malroy	back awhile back	Mar 03 06:48
DaemonFC	https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo	Mar 03 06:48
phIRCe-BNc	Title: RootSudo - Community Ubuntu Documentation .::. Size~: 35.57 KB	Mar 03 06:48
Chips_B_Malroy	myself, I never hated them	Mar 03 06:48
DaemonFC	not everything	Mar 03 06:48
DaemonFC	some things aggravate me	Mar 03 06:48
DaemonFC	some things make a lot of sense	Mar 03 06:48
Chips_B_Malroy	even linked and tryed to help them on MS Watch	Mar 03 06:48
Diablo-D3	http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comments/b87a0/i_read_a_lot_of_threads_about_being_lonely_sad_or/	Mar 03 06:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: I read a lot of threads about being lonely, sad or unhappy in general. : reddit.com .::. Size~: 511.48 KB	Mar 03 06:49
Chips_B_Malroy	ok, that makes sence	Mar 03 06:49
Chips_B_Malroy	about to do a sidux install on another partition 2009-4	Mar 03 06:51
Chips_B_Malroy	I think is Debian based for me	Mar 03 06:52
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] The best post on Reddit ever http://ur1.ca/o7bn		Mar 03 06:52
phIRCe-BNc	Title: I read a lot of threads about being lonely, sad or unhappy in general. : reddit.com .::. Size~: 511.48 KB	Mar 03 06:52
Chips_B_Malroy	Ok Diablo-D3, we seen your link. you can chat now	Mar 03 06:54
Diablo-D3	?	Mar 03 06:57
Diablo-D3	Chips_B_Malroy: what are you talking about now?	Mar 03 06:57
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Larry Lessig muted by Warner Music Group for supporting #copyright reform http://ur1.ca/o7bw		Mar 03 06:57
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Hulu pulling Daily Show and Colbert Report, Hulu is now doomed http://ur1.ca/o7bx #douchebags		Mar 03 06:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story \| A Second Lessig Fair-Use Video Is Suppressed By WMG .::. Size~: 152.1 KB	Mar 03 06:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Viacom Pulling "The Daily Show" and "The Colbert Report" From Hulu - The daily show on hulu - Gizmodo .::. Size~: 65.39 KB	Mar 03 06:57
Chips_B_Malroy	Well, I think I have about outtalked this channel	Mar 03 06:59
Chips_B_Malroy	not an easy feat either	Mar 03 06:59
Chips_B_Malroy	oiaohm is tuff	Mar 03 07:00
DaemonFC	fuck	Mar 03 07:00
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 07:00
Chips_B_Malroy	he is	Mar 03 07:00
Chips_B_Malroy	admitt it	Mar 03 07:00
DaemonFC	Ubuntu slipped in a libvorbis update and bulldozed my AoTuv	Mar 03 07:00
DaemonFC	I encoded 4 CD's with Xiph.org's	Mar 03 07:00
Chips_B_Malroy	didn't u ask for it? Jono you asked	Mar 03 07:01
Diablo-D3	oiaohm minorly trolls periodically	Mar 03 07:01
Diablo-D3	not as bad as ender though	Mar 03 07:01
DaemonFC	yeah, asked several places	Mar 03 07:01
Chips_B_Malroy	been acused of that myself	Mar 03 07:01
Chips_B_Malroy	so what version of ogg is in Debian itself	Mar 03 07:02
Diablo-D3	Chips_B_Malroy: who you talking to anyhow?	Mar 03 07:03
Chips_B_Malroy	both of u	Mar 03 07:03
Diablo-D3	see, there you go again	Mar 03 07:03
Diablo-D3	who is this other person	Mar 03 07:03
Chips_B_Malroy	DaemonFC, who you ban is also here	Mar 03 07:03
Diablo-D3	most of the channel has DaemonFC on ignore	Mar 03 07:03
Diablo-D3	seriously	Mar 03 07:03
Chips_B_Malroy	he has got a lot better lately	Mar 03 07:04
Diablo-D3	or you just got used to it	Mar 03 07:04
Chips_B_Malroy	last 3 months or longer	Mar 03 07:04
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, It's coming...	Mar 03 07:05
Chips_B_Malroy	perhaps, maybe its best to take him off banned and listen for awhile	Mar 03 07:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] Show your support for the AoTuv Vorbis encoder to become the default in Ubuntu! Brainstorm. http://bit.ly/dA6v5F Bug. http://bit.ly/bdTsUy		Mar 03 07:05
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Idea #23838: "Ship the vastly improved AoTuv Vorbis encoder in Ubuntu." - Ubuntu brainstorm .::. Size~: 36.89 KB	Mar 03 07:05
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bug #57797 in libvorbis (Ubuntu): “Should include aoTuV Release 1 patch” .::. Size~: 64.82 KB	Mar 03 07:05
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 07:05
Diablo-D3	uh	Mar 03 07:05
Diablo-D3	HAHAHAHAHAH	Mar 03 07:05
Diablo-D3	oh _wow_	Mar 03 07:05
Diablo-D3	someone should tell DaemonFC that vorbis upstream already accepted aotuv's patches a very very long time ago	Mar 03 07:06
DaemonFC	here comes another one	Mar 03 07:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] Someone should tell Diablo-D3 that the last AoTuv merge was in 2004 and that it's now 2010.		Mar 03 07:07
Diablo-D3	someone should tell DaemonFC that if he keeps that up, the bot wont be following his twitter feed anymore	Mar 03 07:07
Chips_B_Malroy	OK, DaemonFC, in Debian Lenny its 1.20 libvorbis, but in Mepis 8.0 a communtity backport of 1.24	Mar 03 07:07
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, AoTuv is a fork	Mar 03 07:08
Chips_B_Malroy	I have the newer backport 1.24 installed	Mar 03 07:08
DaemonFC	the current Beta 5.7 is a fork off of Xiph.org libvorbis 1.2.1 RC1	Mar 03 07:08
Diablo-D3	Chips_B_Malroy: dont quote lenny	Mar 03 07:08
DaemonFC	Xiph.org libvorbis has had no patches to improve quality in 6 years	Mar 03 07:08
Diablo-D3	debian has 1.2.3	Mar 03 07:09
DaemonFC	who cares? Quality hasn't changed since 1.1 in September of 2004	Mar 03 07:09
DaemonFC	you could be using Ubuntu 4.10 still and have the same quality as you get encoding things in Ubuntu 10.04	Mar 03 07:10
Chips_B_Malroy	so what you are saying is that libvorbis is not going be in Debian the folk I want at all?	Mar 03 07:10
Chips_B_Malroy	1.24	Mar 03 07:11
DaemonFC	is there a 1.2.4?	Mar 03 07:12
DaemonFC	I don't care what Xiph ships until it is 1.3.0	Mar 03 07:12
DaemonFC	Monty has said that AoTuv merge is must have for 1.3.0	Mar 03 07:12
Chips_B_Malroy	I guess I am not up on this, not sure what is the advantage	Mar 03 07:15
Chips_B_Malroy	sorry, it wwas 1.23 when I rechecked it. and not the Xiph.org fork either	Mar 03 07:17
Chips_B_Malroy	so is this strickly Debian? Or are other distros using Xiph?	Mar 03 07:18
DaemonFC	all use Xiph	Mar 03 07:19
DaemonFC	unfortunately	Mar 03 07:19
DaemonFC	Aoyumi has put a lot of time and effort into fine tuning the sound quality	Mar 03 07:20
DaemonFC	but most of that work is not in Xiph's reference encoder	Mar 03 07:20
DaemonFC	you can throw samples that kill Xiph.org Vorbis at AoTuv and get good results	Mar 03 07:21
Chips_B_Malroy	I don't know about that, but Cinerra needs work on it yet, for editing of ogv files	Mar 03 07:23
DaemonFC	Xiph.org Vorbis is not all that great	Mar 03 07:24
Chips_B_Malroy	and I have not found anything else that will edit an ogv file directly	Mar 03 07:24
DaemonFC	thankfully if your distro insists on being stupid, you can use Windows software in Wine to encode your music files	Mar 03 07:24
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 07:24
Chips_B_Malroy	I think not	Mar 03 07:24
DaemonFC	I don't do that, I forced Lucid to "downgrade" to some AoTuv packages in a PPA for Karmic	Mar 03 07:25
DaemonFC	I'd rather use the Windows software than use what comes with Ubuntu	Mar 03 07:25
Chips_B_Malroy	Ubuntu is not my choice, but for some its ok	Mar 03 07:25
Chips_B_Malroy	I could use it in preferene to windows.	Mar 03 07:26
DaemonFC	The frustration here is "Why do Linux distros make it easier to use Windows software in Wine to get thigns done when the solution is staring them in the face?"	Mar 03 07:26
Chips_B_Malroy	no problem	Mar 03 07:26
Chips_B_Malroy	it would be easier for me to convert to ogg, than ogv	Mar 03 07:27
DaemonFC	the only difference between oga, ogv, and ogg is the extension	Mar 03 07:29
DaemonFC	they're all in an ogg container	Mar 03 07:29
DaemonFC	brb	Mar 03 07:29
*DaemonFC has quit (Remote host closed the connection)		Mar 03 07:29
Chips_B_Malroy	but you understand the difference	Mar 03 07:30
*DaemonFC (~ryan@c-69-245-224-113.hsd1.in.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 07:32
Chips_B_Malroy	look at that, I outlasted them all! lol, gn	Mar 03 07:32
DaemonFC	new video driver	Mar 03 07:32
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 07:32
Chips_B_Malroy	whoops, I was mistaken	Mar 03 07:33
DaemonFC	had quite a few patches that fixed weirdness and improved performance on my card	Mar 03 07:33
DaemonFC	so I got it	Mar 03 07:33
Chips_B_Malroy	ATI?	Mar 03 07:33
DaemonFC	yeah, I have the git versions of X, the ATI driver, and Mesa 7.8	Mar 03 07:34
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 07:34
Chips_B_Malroy	which card?	Mar 03 07:34
DaemonFC	radeonhd 4670	Mar 03 07:34
DaemonFC	if you go a few days between updates, there's guaranteed to be a couple dozen patches that went in that should interest you	Mar 03 07:35
Chips_B_Malroy	thats a newer card	Mar 03 07:35
Chips_B_Malroy	I am using very old	Mar 03 07:36
Diablo-D3	argh	Mar 03 07:36
Chips_B_Malroy	X1650	Mar 03 07:36
Diablo-D3	you're still talking to him!	Mar 03 07:36
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: I still have you on ignore but	Mar 03 07:36
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: you've wasted your time	Mar 03 07:36
Chips_B_Malroy	its ok Diablo, u can talk to us	Mar 03 07:37
Diablo-D3	monty is already planning on merging Aoyumi's stuff	Mar 03 07:37
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, Tell him that Monty has said that for YEARS now..... please :)	Mar 03 07:37
Chips_B_Malroy	you run dual monitors on your rig DaemonFC?	Mar 03 07:38
DaemonFC	nope	Mar 03 07:38
Chips_B_Malroy	I do	Mar 03 07:38
DaemonFC	I thought this 24" was massive when I got it	Mar 03 07:38
DaemonFC	I was used to a little 17" CRT	Mar 03 07:38
Chips_B_Malroy	but after kernel 2.6.28 my card not supported for dual monitors	Mar 03 07:39
DaemonFC	and this thing was BIG	Mar 03 07:39
DaemonFC	with the nonfree driver?	Mar 03 07:39
DaemonFC	or with the free one?	Mar 03 07:39
Chips_B_Malroy	two older 4:3 1600x1200 LCD's	Mar 03 07:39
Chips_B_Malroy	IBM of course	Mar 03 07:39
Chips_B_Malroy	yes the ATI blob driver	Mar 03 07:40
DaemonFC	try the free driver	Mar 03 07:40
Chips_B_Malroy	it works in the newer kernels, but no dual monitor support	Mar 03 07:40
DaemonFC	and use xorg edgers PPA :)	Mar 03 07:41
Diablo-D3	fglrx	Mar 03 07:41
Diablo-D3	which is, thankfully, dying out	Mar 03 07:41
Chips_B_Malroy	have to look that up, thanks	Mar 03 07:42
DaemonFC	fglrx is the devil	Mar 03 07:42
Chips_B_Malroy	Diablo, you can talk to Daemon	Mar 03 07:42
Diablo-D3	Id have to take him off ignore.	Mar 03 07:42
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: this better be worth my time.	Mar 03 07:43
Chips_B_Malroy	well, fglrx did have problems with a lot of wine games etc	Mar 03 07:43
Diablo-D3	no, wine has a lot of problems with games.	Mar 03 07:43
Diablo-D3	Chips_B_Malroy: anyhow, mesaland now can run glsl shaders	Mar 03 07:43
Chips_B_Malroy	that too	Mar 03 07:43
Diablo-D3	problem is, radeon's shader compiler isn't yet 100% complete	Mar 03 07:44
DaemonFC	Chips_B_Malroy, 1. it still does, 2 RandR support is half there, 3 it's slow even with compositing, 4 it only works on old X servers, and 5 it eats puppies	Mar 03 07:44
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 07:44
DaemonFC	I much prefer the git versions of the FOSS driver	Mar 03 07:44
Diablo-D3	so, although I can run glsl shaders.... I can't yet do so in a way that has them hardware accelerated	Mar 03 07:44
Diablo-D3	that said, running nexuiz at 320x240 in all software rendering and getting acceptable framerates is wildly amusing	Mar 03 07:44
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Mesa 7.8 supports glsl 1.1	Mar 03 07:45
DaemonFC	they plan to upgrade their glsl support in 8.0	Mar 03 07:45
DaemonFC	they're also planning full OpenGL 3.2 for 8.0	Mar 03 07:45
DaemonFC	that's probably this summer	Mar 03 07:45
Chips_B_Malroy	somehow, I think even my old ATI card is ahead of most of the games written for it. For myself, I mostly do not play lots of games, so do not need another card. But the dual monitor support is nice	Mar 03 07:45
Diablo-D3	what card?	Mar 03 07:46
Chips_B_Malroy	old old X1650	Mar 03 07:46
Diablo-D3	hah	Mar 03 07:46
Diablo-D3	I dont think fglrx even supports it anymore	Mar 03 07:46
Chips_B_Malroy	=X1600	Mar 03 07:46
DaemonFC	the free driver supports everything on cards that old	Mar 03 07:47
Chips_B_Malroy	up to kernel 2.6.28 it does	Mar 03 07:47
Diablo-D3	no, I mean	Mar 03 07:47
Chips_B_Malroy	it does too	Mar 03 07:47
Diablo-D3	the newest version of fglrx doesnt	Mar 03 07:47
DaemonFC	I think FGLRX dropped R500 and under though	Mar 03 07:47
Diablo-D3	its an r500, Im pretty sure they dropped support for it	Mar 03 07:48
Diablo-D3	which means you should be using mesaland stuff anyhow	Mar 03 07:48
Chips_B_Malroy	I run dual monitors on it on Mepis 8.0 64bit, with ATI fglrx 2.6.27 kernel	Mar 03 07:48
Chips_B_Malroy	Debian based	Mar 03 07:48
Diablo-D3	Chips_B_Malroy: you keep failing to say which fglrx	Mar 03 07:48
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Has Monty committed to a date for libvorbis 1.3.0? Cause he's been saying he'll merge AoTuv into that forever	Mar 03 07:49
DaemonFC	but that's been the last 4 years he's been saying it	Mar 03 07:49
*Diablo-D3 finally took DaemonFC off ignore		Mar 03 07:49
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: fuck up, and back on ignore you go	Mar 03 07:49
DaemonFC	mmhm	Mar 03 07:49
DaemonFC	anyway, Linus once said "Talk is cheap, show me the code"	Mar 03 07:50
DaemonFC	that's kind of what Monty reminds me of	Mar 03 07:50
Diablo-D3	monty talks to Aoyumi regularly	Mar 03 07:50
Diablo-D3	aoyumi doesnt want it merged quite yet	Mar 03 07:50
DaemonFC	so why is Vorbis from Xiph.org not changed much since 2004?	Mar 03 07:50
Diablo-D3	actually it has	Mar 03 07:50
Diablo-D3	but a lot of xiph effort lately has been elsewhere	Mar 03 07:50
Diablo-D3	theora has been getting a lot of work done, for example	Mar 03 07:51
DaemonFC	yeah, and he's being well paid to do that, I get it	Mar 03 07:51
Diablo-D3	xiph has very few coders	Mar 03 07:51
DaemonFC	overall I think more people care about Vorbis though	Mar 03 07:51
Diablo-D3	and vorbis and theora share a lot of them	Mar 03 07:51
Chips_B_Malroy	Diablo-D3> well, I on the laptop right now, so no, I cannot tell you which fglrx driver used	Mar 03 07:51
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Having to maintain my own Vorbis encoder outside of what the distro gives me is a pain	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	the new aotuv code will probably be merged into 1.1.x	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: actually a lot of distros ship aotuv instead	Mar 03 07:52
DaemonFC	I'd just like to have xiph do 1.3 so I can use their encoder again	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	which I dont suggest	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	aotuv isnt ready	Mar 03 07:52
DaemonFC	which ones do that?	Mar 03 07:52
DaemonFC	maybe I'll use one	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	last time aotuv merged in, monty found a lot of bugs that aoyumi didnt know about	Mar 03 07:52
Diablo-D3	which, yes, thats a good thing	Mar 03 07:53
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: it takes about a month to merge aotuv in	Mar 03 07:53
DaemonFC	works great for me, but I'm not going to presume that there's no bugs in there I'm not hitting	Mar 03 07:53
Chips_B_Malroy	h2.64 scares me	Mar 03 07:53
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: its not like monty isnt going to do it	Mar 03 07:53
Diablo-D3	its just that aotuv isnt ready to be merged back in, and other things are taking higher priority	Mar 03 07:54
Diablo-D3	it'll probably be done this year	Mar 03 07:54
DaemonFC	I'd just like a timeframe of some kind so I know when to expect it	Mar 03 07:54
Diablo-D3	maybe next	Mar 03 07:54
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: oh, and one of the big vorbis devs is off harassing the IETC on behalf of somebody	Mar 03 07:54
Diablo-D3	which is apparently a fulltime job	Mar 03 07:54
DaemonFC	over AAC used in HTML 5?	Mar 03 07:55
DaemonFC	there's no way that that should be enshrined in a standard	Mar 03 07:55
Diablo-D3	well, trying to further standardized non-patent shit	Mar 03 07:55
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: btw	Mar 03 07:55
Diablo-D3	Im not like monty	Mar 03 07:55
Diablo-D3	I dont mind h264 and aac being acceptably mentioned in html5 as example widely used codecs for <video>	Mar 03 07:56
DaemonFC	there's no such thing as an open standard that not everyone can pick up and use	Mar 03 07:56
DaemonFC	open standard is a frequent lie big companies like using	Mar 03 07:56
Diablo-D3	browsers should be able to support those	Mar 03 07:56
Diablo-D3	and by "should", I mean if h264 wants to be continue to be used on next gen platforms, its not going to start charging people	Mar 03 07:56
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: theora is almost superior to h264	Mar 03 07:57
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, I have nothing against h.264 aside from the patent license gouging that's sure to come with it	Mar 03 07:57
DaemonFC	quality-wise it's a good codec	Mar 03 07:57
Diablo-D3	if you look at h264 and limit it to, say, bluray's 4.1	Mar 03 07:58
DaemonFC	them saying no royalties til 2016 just means "We'll get you addicted and come hit you up in 2016"	Mar 03 07:58
Diablo-D3	ie, the most common version of it, since hardware accelerators cant accelerate lesser profiles	Mar 03 07:58
Diablo-D3	(or greater)	Mar 03 07:58
Diablo-D3	so, you limit h264 to that	Mar 03 07:59
Diablo-D3	theora, out of the box, beats it	Mar 03 07:59
Diablo-D3	it may not get quite as high quality per bit	Mar 03 07:59
Diablo-D3	but its in the same ballpark, and it takes far less to encode and decode it	Mar 03 07:59
DaemonFC	wil lyoutube use theora/vorbis eventually?	Mar 03 07:59
Diablo-D3	they might	Mar 03 08:00
DaemonFC	just serve up whatever your browser supports?	Mar 03 08:00
Diablo-D3	theres another big thing about that	Mar 03 08:00
Diablo-D3	google closed their purchase of On2 last week.	Mar 03 08:00
Chips_B_Malroy	well, we need a free internet, and theora is the best bet, without a bunch of patent lawyers hanging around	Mar 03 08:00
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: you _do_ know who On2, is, right?	Mar 03 08:01
DaemonFC	yeah	Mar 03 08:01
Diablo-D3	this means Google now owns the newest version of the VP family of codecs	Mar 03 08:01
Diablo-D3	Theora forks from VP3 and vastly improves it	Mar 03 08:01
DaemonFC	watch them release them as FOSS and make Theora obsolete	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	not quite	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	watch them hand it over to Xiph	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	and then Xiph tunes it up and releases Theora 2	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	see, this is the big problem	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	They went in opposite directions	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	Theora does stuff well VP8 doesnt, and VP8 does stuff well Theora doesnt	Mar 03 08:02
Diablo-D3	combined, it'd rape everything	Mar 03 08:03
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: plus, this is all using "old" technologies	Mar 03 08:03
Diablo-D3	and yes, h264 is old technology	Mar 03 08:04
Diablo-D3	its still based on the same family of techniques mpeg1 pioneered	Mar 03 08:04
Diablo-D3	its just vastly improved and tuned	Mar 03 08:05
Diablo-D3	so if someone ends up making a wavelet encoder that could actually be used	Mar 03 08:05
DaemonFC	the MPEG profiles are just crazy	Mar 03 08:05
Diablo-D3	all of this would be gone	Mar 03 08:05
DaemonFC	*MPEG-4	Mar 03 08:05
Diablo-D3	dirac is awesome, but its not ready.	Mar 03 08:05
Diablo-D3	it takes entirely too much horsepower to decode, let alone encode	Mar 03 08:06
DaemonFC	Vorbis takes more than MP3	Mar 03 08:06
DaemonFC	your player's battery goes down quicker	Mar 03 08:06
Diablo-D3	not really	Mar 03 08:07
Diablo-D3	also, your comparison sucks	Mar 03 08:07
Diablo-D3	compare vorbis to aac	Mar 03 08:07
DaemonFC	never used AAC	Mar 03 08:08
DaemonFC	well, beyond playing around with it	Mar 03 08:08
DaemonFC	AAC doesn't seem on par with Vorbis	Mar 03 08:08
Chips_B_Malroy	well gn	Mar 03 08:10
*Chips_B_Malroy has quit (Quit: Page closed)		Mar 03 08:10
*oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)		Mar 03 08:10
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux is Unique and Why on Desktops Too It Will Dominate http://www.itclub.cekuj.net/?p=1880 http://www.itnewstoday.com/?p=1423		Mar 03 08:22
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Differences Between Linux And Windows - IT Club .::. Size~: 44.79 KB	Mar 03 08:22
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The Linux Desktop of the Future .::. Size~: 32.68 KB	Mar 03 08:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Dell 's Configurtor Shows the Real Value of Desktop #GNU #Linux http://www.crunchgear.com/2010/03/01/dells-linux-tax-is-outrageous/		Mar 03 08:24
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Dells Linux Tax is outrageous .::. Size~: 36.28 KB	Mar 03 08:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux-2.6.33-libre is Out http://lwn.net/Articles/376566/		Mar 03 08:25
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Linux-2.6.33-libre released [LWN.net] .::. Size~: 109.39 KB	Mar 03 08:25
DaemonFC	I may compile a "libre" kernel and see if it boots	Mar 03 08:25
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: dont worry, AAC is on par	Mar 03 08:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNOME Desktop Report from GNOME London UX http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/the-one-where-the-designers-ask-for-a-pony/		Mar 03 08:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The one where the designers ask for a pony « MÃ¡irÃn Duffy .::. Size~: 72.77 KB	Mar 03 08:27
Diablo-D3	he-aac v2, for example, excels really damned well at low bitrate	Mar 03 08:27
DaemonFC	it seems to me that quality goes something like Vorbis > MPC > HE-AAC > WMA Pro > AAC > MP3 > WMA Standard	Mar 03 08:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] How #Ubuntu , #Debian , and #Mandriva #GNU #Linux Deal with Old PCs http://ur1.ca/o7jz		Mar 03 08:28
Diablo-D3	you listed aac twice.	Mar 03 08:28
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Linux Free Operating Systems – Ubuntu, Debian, Mandriva Installations on an Old PC \| Best Syndication .::. Size~: 36 KB	Mar 03 08:28
DaemonFC	Yeah, because there's the HE-AAC variant	Mar 03 08:28
Diablo-D3	its not a variant	Mar 03 08:28
DaemonFC	I know it's just a profile	Mar 03 08:28
Diablo-D3	its like h264 profiles	Mar 03 08:28
DaemonFC	but WMA and WMA Pro are two different codecs	Mar 03 08:29
Diablo-D3	yes, they are	Mar 03 08:29
Diablo-D3	wma pro iirc doesnt do low bitrate anyhow	Mar 03 08:29
DaemonFC	there's a high bitrate HE-AAC encoder from Coding Technologies	Mar 03 08:29
Diablo-D3	yeah, and its pointless	Mar 03 08:29
DaemonFC	Nero won't let you use the HE-AAC profile in those bitrates	Mar 03 08:29
Diablo-D3	SBR and PS buys you very little at high bitrates	Mar 03 08:29
Diablo-D3	and generally its not a good idea if the encoder is tuned for low bitrates	Mar 03 08:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Review of #GNU #Linux Distribution #SystemRescueCD 1.40 http://ur1.ca/o7k6		Mar 03 08:30
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The ultimate PC repair kit: SystemRescueCD 1.40 - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 133.69 KB	Mar 03 08:30
DaemonFC	it specifically says HE-AAC high bitrate	Mar 03 08:30
DaemonFC	and it goes from 128kbps on up	Mar 03 08:30
Diablo-D3	what Im saying is, he-aac/he-aac2 is not meant for high bitrates	Mar 03 08:30
DaemonFC	I've never seen other encoders that let you use it there	Mar 03 08:30
Diablo-D3	SBR and PS buy you very little, and may even cause quality loss, at high bitrates	Mar 03 08:31
DaemonFC	marketing ploy?	Mar 03 08:31
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gentoo Works Nicely on #Dell Inspiron Mini 10, Derivative #Sabayon Gets 2.6.33 Kernel http://ur1.ca/o7kf http://ur1.ca/o7kg		Mar 03 08:31
phIRCe-BNc	Title: trevoke: Gentoo on a Dell Inspiron Mini 10 .::. Size~: 21.25 KB	Mar 03 08:31
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Sabayon 5.2 To Ship With 2.6.33 Kernel& and BFS! \| v00d00.net .::. Size~: 30.53 KB	Mar 03 08:31
Diablo-D3	thats the big issue right there	Mar 03 08:31
DaemonFC	you can use it but it doesn't matter much	Mar 03 08:31
DaemonFC	but they act like it does	Mar 03 08:31
Diablo-D3	it only means something at low bitrates	Mar 03 08:31
Diablo-D3	it also cant be used on more than 2.0 channels, btw	Mar 03 08:32
DaemonFC	WMA Pro still kicks ass where WMA doesn't because it's an entirely different codec	Mar 03 08:32
DaemonFC	from scratch	Mar 03 08:32
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Diablo-D3	yes, DaemonFC	Mar 03 08:32
Diablo-D3	wma pro is a different codec =P	Mar 03 08:32
Diablo-D3	so is mp3pro (even if it can be decoded by mp3 with severe quality loss)	Mar 03 08:32
DaemonFC	you have to get a Zune to play it I think	Mar 03 08:33
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Review of #Fedora #GNU #Linux Derivative #VineLinux ; #RedHat Targets #SAP http://ur1.ca/o7ki http://ur1.ca/o7kj		Mar 03 08:33
DaemonFC	MP3 Pro is nonstandard P3 extensions	Mar 03 08:33
DaemonFC	*MP3	Mar 03 08:33
Diablo-D3	its not even nonstandard	Mar 03 08:33
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Vine Linux 5.1 review LinuxBSDos.com .::. Size~: 74.88 KB	Mar 03 08:33
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Why Red Hat Surfaced at SAP Partner Summit \| The VAR Guy .::. Size~: 45.81 KB	Mar 03 08:33
Diablo-D3	MP3 doesnt have the ability to be extended	Mar 03 08:33
Diablo-D3	they basically wrote an entirely new codec that has a stupid gimmic	Mar 03 08:33
DaemonFC	so it's like a correction file that lives in the MP3 file	Mar 03 08:33
DaemonFC	right?	Mar 03 08:33
Diablo-D3	in a very dumb way, sort of	Mar 03 08:34
Diablo-D3	it has frames that the mp3 decoder ignores because they're "corrupted"	Mar 03 08:34
DaemonFC	that sounds very ugly	Mar 03 08:34
Diablo-D3	no one supports mp3pro, btw	Mar 03 08:34
Diablo-D3	I mean, NO ONE	Mar 03 08:34
DaemonFC	the Winamp plugin for them still works	Mar 03 08:34
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 08:34
Diablo-D3	thomson's plugin	Mar 03 08:35
DaemonFC	MP3HD is going to fail jsut as hard	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	notice the very important distinction there	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	RCA was making players that did mp3pro for a VERY short time	Mar 03 08:35
DaemonFC	why are they trying this shit?	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	but, like, who the fuck buys RCA mp3 players	Mar 03 08:35
DaemonFC	Why would anyone USE this shit?	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: no one would	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	apple backed aac, so everyone uses it	Mar 03 08:35
Diablo-D3	unless they just do plain mp3 only	Mar 03 08:36
DaemonFC	MPEG-4 Audio (AAC) is much better than MP3 because MP3 has no concept of profiles	Mar 03 08:36
DaemonFC	it is what it is	Mar 03 08:36
DaemonFC	it wasn't even designed around VBR	Mar 03 08:36
Diablo-D3	you need to zoom out on this a bit though	Mar 03 08:36
Diablo-D3	MP3 is an addon spec for mpeg2	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	mpeg2 layer 3	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	thats what it is	Mar 03 08:37
DaemonFC	yeah, superset	Mar 03 08:37
DaemonFC	actually, MPEG 1	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	er, right	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	its mpeg1	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	all it does is add a spec on for audio coding	Mar 03 08:37
DaemonFC	but it's also defined in MPEG 2 for different purposes	Mar 03 08:37
Diablo-D3	aac quite literally replaced it	Mar 03 08:37
DaemonFC	and FhG even made an unofficial "MPEG 2.5 profile"	Mar 03 08:37
DaemonFC	which makes shit even more confusing	Mar 03 08:38
Diablo-D3	its not "better", its the official replacement for mp3	Mar 03 08:38
Diablo-D3	official by MPEG themselves	Mar 03 08:38
DaemonFC	yeah, official replacement	Mar 03 08:38
Diablo-D3	its no different then how mpeg4 replaced 2.	Mar 03 08:38
DaemonFC	it's kind of the successor in name only	Mar 03 08:38
DaemonFC	same cartel marketing it	Mar 03 08:38
DaemonFC	it's completely unrelated to MP3	Mar 03 08:39
Diablo-D3	mpeg2 part 2 was replaced with mpeg4 part 2	Mar 03 08:39
Diablo-D3	its the same shit	Mar 03 08:39
Diablo-D3	the only problem here is, mpeg1 has no actually official codec	Mar 03 08:39
DaemonFC	I happen to think Vorbis is better for a few reasons, so I don't care what officially replaces MP3	Mar 03 08:40
Diablo-D3	actually Im glossing that over.	Mar 03 08:40
Diablo-D3	it _does_ have an audio codec	Mar 03 08:40
DaemonFC	something else worked better and I use that	Mar 03 08:40
Diablo-D3	but no one uses it	Mar 03 08:40
Diablo-D3	layer 1 is a simplified version of layer 2, and layer 2, aka MP2, is very rarely used	Mar 03 08:41
DaemonFC	MPEG 1 layer 1, 2, and 3	Mar 03 08:41
Diablo-D3	yup	Mar 03 08:41
DaemonFC	MP3 is MPEG 1 Layer 3	Mar 03 08:41
Diablo-D3	yup.	Mar 03 08:41
DaemonFC	MPEG 1 Layer 1 was never widely used	Mar 03 08:41
DaemonFC	MPEG 1 Layer 2 is still used	Mar 03 08:42
DaemonFC	broadcasters like it	Mar 03 08:42
Diablo-D3	[03:33:36] <Diablo-D3> layer 1 is a simplified version of layer 2	Mar 03 08:42
Diablo-D3	and yeah, it gets a little bit of internal usage when their stuff isn't already AC3 or something else	Mar 03 08:42
DaemonFC	yeah, Philips tried to make this stupid mini disc thing	Mar 03 08:42
DaemonFC	it flopped	Mar 03 08:42
DaemonFC	that was the end of layer 1	Mar 03 08:42
Diablo-D3	layer 3 was not part of the original mpeg1 spec	Mar 03 08:42
Diablo-D3	and all it is, is a hacked up version of layer 2	Mar 03 08:42
Diablo-D3	where they didnt understand how it worked and tried to shove a broken psychoacoustic model in it	Mar 03 08:43
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Review of the Next #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux , New Interviews http://ur1.ca/o08y http://ur1.ca/o7l8 http://ur1.ca/o7l9		Mar 03 08:43
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Hands-on: Ubuntu goes social, gains Me Menu in 10.04 alpha 3 .::. Size~: 30.88 KB	Mar 03 08:43
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Matt Asays Top Priorities and Goals .::. Size~: 32.22 KB	Mar 03 08:43
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Interview With Melissa \| The Fridge .::. Size~: 12.48 KB	Mar 03 08:43
Diablo-D3	and throw in huffman coding too to compress the bitstream	Mar 03 08:43
DaemonFC	There's an encoder for layer 2 called TooLame, it's abandoned, but someone forked it	Mar 03 08:43
DaemonFC	forget who, still maintains it	Mar 03 08:43
Diablo-D3	twolame	Mar 03 08:44
Diablo-D3	thats the fork	Mar 03 08:44
DaemonFC	TooLame	Mar 03 08:44
Diablo-D3	toolame -> twolame	Mar 03 08:44
Diablo-D3	I kid you not, the fork is twolame.	Mar 03 08:44
DaemonFC	http://sourceforge.net/projects/toolame/files/	Mar 03 08:44
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Browse toolame Files on SourceForge.net .::. Size~: 46.51 KB	Mar 03 08:44
DaemonFC	ohhhh	Mar 03 08:44
DaemonFC	Two is the fork	Mar 03 08:44
Diablo-D3	yes	Mar 03 08:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Devices Getting More Affordable http://ur1.ca/o7lg http://ur1.ca/o7lh		Mar 03 08:45
phIRCe-BNc	Title: They're here: Cheap Android smartphones - LinuxWorld .::. Size~: 34.92 KB	Mar 03 08:45
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Freescale Chip to Bring Lower Prices for E-Readers \| John Paczkowski \| Digital Daily \| AllThingsD .::. Size~: 62.04 KB	Mar 03 08:45
DaemonFC	tried it, it does seem much more limited than MP3	Mar 03 08:45
Diablo-D3	its not	Mar 03 08:45
DaemonFC	there's crude VBR support in toolame	Mar 03 08:45
Diablo-D3	the thing is, its meant for high bitrate usage	Mar 03 08:45
DaemonFC	yes, MPC extended MP2	Mar 03 08:45
DaemonFC	MPC is quite good at high bitrates	Mar 03 08:46
DaemonFC	like 256k >	Mar 03 08:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FreeSoftware Redefines the Mobile #Phones Market, Helps #Linux http://ur1.ca/o7lk http://ur1.ca/o7ll		Mar 03 08:46
phIRCe-BNc	Title: open...: Open Source Re-writes the Rules for Mobile .::. Size~: 100.33 KB	Mar 03 08:46
Diablo-D3	anything, largely, is quite good at high bitrates	Mar 03 08:46
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Armed and Dangerous » Blog Archive » How smartphones will disrupt PCs .::. Size~: 161.85 KB	Mar 03 08:46
DaemonFC	past q6 seems to get you diminishing returns on Vorbis	Mar 03 08:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android / #Linux Tablet Are Shipping http://www.androidspin.com/2010/02/26/entourage-edge-shapes-up-and-is-shipping-out/		Mar 03 08:47
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Entourage Edge shapes up and is shipping out « AndroidSPIN \| Your No.1 source for Android news. .::. Size~: 54.93 KB	Mar 03 08:47
Diablo-D3	lame -q 0 -b 320 will be, effectively, near lossless	Mar 03 08:47
Diablo-D3	so throw enough bits at something, it will sound good regardless.	Mar 03 08:48
DaemonFC	meh, thats just --alt-preset-insane	Mar 03 08:48
DaemonFC	gets you 320k CBR	Mar 03 08:48
DaemonFC	--alt-preset-extreme gets you VBR 0	Mar 03 08:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Tablets Starting at $199, Available Since Yesterday http://ur1.ca/o7ls http://ur1.ca/o7lt		Mar 03 08:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Need a tablet? Android based iLet Mini HAL shipping March 1 for $199 \| Google Android Blog .::. Size~: 71.54 KB	Mar 03 08:49
DaemonFC	highest VBR quality	Mar 03 08:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: MeeGo: The Linux iPad? .::. Size~: 32.42 KB	Mar 03 08:49
Diablo-D3	yeah, but you're missing the point here	Mar 03 08:49
DaemonFC	--alt-preset-extreme is usually preferable to insane	Mar 03 08:49
Diablo-D3	mp3 _can_ be made to sound good.	Mar 03 08:49
DaemonFC	freeformat	Mar 03 08:49
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 08:49
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: ...	Mar 03 08:50
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 08:50
*Diablo-D3 hits DaemonFC with a bat		Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	you're missing the point	Mar 03 08:50
DaemonFC	640k ftw!	Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	even mp3 can be made to sound good at high bitrate	Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	and btw, you mentioned those extensions to mp3 for mpeg2	Mar 03 08:50
DaemonFC	free format 640k, a bitrate that should be enough for anybody :)	Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	all they do is add a different set of audio sampling rates, and a new set of bitrates	Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	it doesnt change it	Mar 03 08:50
Diablo-D3	most encoders and decoders already supported it	Mar 03 08:51
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Document Freedom Day Comes Later This Month http://fsfe.org/news/2010/news-20100302-01.en.html #odf		Mar 03 08:51
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Document Freedom Day 2010 - Free your documents, save your information! .::. Size~: 6.1 KB	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	anyhow	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: so	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	it can be proved	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	that even the hardest shit	Mar 03 08:51
DaemonFC	the problem with free format is that almost nothing can read the file after you do that	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	can be done in mp3 well	Mar 03 08:51
DaemonFC	cause the ISO spec doesn't require decoders to deal with that	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	but you need a lot of bits to do it	Mar 03 08:51
Diablo-D3	btw, mp3 players usually dont follow the ISO spec	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	the ISO spec is a very subtly broke version of the actual MP3 sepc	Mar 03 08:52
DaemonFC	well, there's no spec for tags	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	which gets very interesting very fast	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	anyhow, DaemonFC	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	so	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	we have AAC	Mar 03 08:52
DaemonFC	there's no standard for replay gain	Mar 03 08:52
Diablo-D3	AAC is the official replacement	Mar 03 08:52
DaemonFC	most players support the replaygain format of LAME	Mar 03 08:53
DaemonFC	FhG has their own that nobody uses	Mar 03 08:53
Diablo-D3	even if mpeg-1 part 3 layer 3 was wedged in using an update to the mpeg-1 spec	Mar 03 08:53
Diablo-D3	(wee for long names)	Mar 03 08:53
Diablo-D3	mpeg 2 replaced it	Mar 03 08:54
DaemonFC	Funny that anyone would want to tag their MP3s isn't it?	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: btw	Mar 03 08:54
DaemonFC	just couldn't see that coming could they?	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	mp3s are technically invalid	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	you know why?	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	its raw audio data	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	its not meant to be outside of a container	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	a .mp3 isnt in an mpg container.	Mar 03 08:54
DaemonFC	you can put them in a container B-)	Mar 03 08:54
Diablo-D3	and tagging is part of the container's job	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	so id3v1/v2 is a very large hack	Mar 03 08:55
DaemonFC	you can put MP3 in an MP4 container	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	you're missing the point DaemonFC	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	the reason mp3 didnt support tags is because ITS RAW DATA	Mar 03 08:55
DaemonFC	it natively doesn't have one, I know	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	mp3 just gets worse and worse and worse	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	SO	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	mpeg2 comes along	Mar 03 08:55
DaemonFC	id3 tags ftw	Mar 03 08:55
Diablo-D3	it adds a few things to the mpeg1 audio layer	Mar 03 08:56
Diablo-D3	official spec support for low bitrates and low sampling rates and more than 2 channels	Mar 03 08:56
Diablo-D3	most encoders and decoders already supported these	Mar 03 08:57
*Aondo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)		Mar 03 08:58
Diablo-D3	since the real MP3 spec supported them	Mar 03 08:59
Diablo-D3	the version that MPEG-1 got "didnt"	Mar 03 08:59
Diablo-D3	lolspecs, etc	Mar 03 08:59
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: so, aac comes into being	Mar 03 08:59
Diablo-D3	but no one uses it	Mar 03 08:59
DaemonFC	the AAC container is bloated	Mar 03 08:59
Diablo-D3	it doesnt have one.	Mar 03 09:00
DaemonFC	great way to add 200 K to each file	Mar 03 09:00
Diablo-D3	it either uses mp4 or it uses a raw feed	Mar 03 09:00
*Aondo (stian@193.71.154.133) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 09:00
DaemonFC	so why are AAC files bigger than MP4 files	Mar 03 09:00
DaemonFC	even with the same audio	Mar 03 09:00
Diablo-D3	dunno.	Mar 03 09:01
Diablo-D3	might be the aac header	Mar 03 09:01
Diablo-D3	or you're just smoking crack	Mar 03 09:01
Diablo-D3	anyhow, DaemonFC	Mar 03 09:01
Diablo-D3	so the original AAC didnt have PNS	Mar 03 09:01
Diablo-D3	mpeg4 aac officially adds that	Mar 03 09:01
DaemonFC	adding things after the fact pisses me off	Mar 03 09:03
Diablo-D3	but since aac is meant to be extended	Mar 03 09:03
Diablo-D3	a player can play a file "fine" without PNS support	Mar 03 09:03
Diablo-D3	it just sounds lower quality	Mar 03 09:03
DaemonFC	they should design things around what people will use them for	Mar 03 09:03
DaemonFC	MP3 might have the excuses for what it does	Mar 03 09:03
DaemonFC	AAC doesn't	Mar 03 09:03
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: they didnt have that technology yet	Mar 03 09:03
DaemonFC	Vorbis is a pretty good format because it lets you do everything you'd likely want to do with it	Mar 03 09:04
Diablo-D3	theres other addons, btw	Mar 03 09:04
DaemonFC	tags, album art in the file	Mar 03 09:04
DaemonFC	designed around being VBR in nature	Mar 03 09:04
Diablo-D3	theres SLS	Mar 03 09:04
Diablo-D3	SLS adds another stream altogether, that the AAC decoder can ignore, that produces lossless audio	Mar 03 09:04
Diablo-D3	you can strip the stream out using very dumb tools, and have a much smaller normal AAC file	Mar 03 09:05
DaemonFC	I think a standard should be either definied with everything it's ever going to be used for in mind or with room to be extended later without being disruptive or incompatible	Mar 03 09:05
Diablo-D3	it never took off because people were trying to use it for DRM ware	Mar 03 09:05
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: thats impossible	Mar 03 09:05
Diablo-D3	theres always new techniques coming up	Mar 03 09:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Mozilla Adds More Nice Features to #Firefox http://ur1.ca/o7n8 http://ur1.ca/o7n9		Mar 03 09:06
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Elements of Firefox overhaul arrive for testing \| Deep Tech - CNET News .::. Size~: 62.94 KB	Mar 03 09:06
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Firefox afterburner for JavaScript - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.58 KB	Mar 03 09:06
DaemonFC	when you define a spec, and millions of devices support that spec, don't change the spec	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	they didnt	Mar 03 09:06
DaemonFC	you change the spec, you get files floating around that people can't use	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	they just built in the ability to have backwards compatibility	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: woah	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	wtf dude	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	did you somehow miss what Ive been saying for the last half hour?	Mar 03 09:06
Diablo-D3	AAC is _designed_ to be extneded	Mar 03 09:07
DaemonFC	Thomson is still trying to fuck around with MP3	Mar 03 09:07
DaemonFC	is mainly what I'm referring to	Mar 03 09:07
Diablo-D3	if you have a player that cant play new AAC data, it _still plays them fine_	Mar 03 09:07
DaemonFC	they think they can do that	Mar 03 09:07
Diablo-D3	its just lower quality	Mar 03 09:07
*Aondo has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds)		Mar 03 09:07
Diablo-D3	and if you dont quite understand what Im saying, if you would have never used those features to begin with, it'd STILL be lower quality!	Mar 03 09:07
DaemonFC	I've had RCA MP3 players before cause I got them for free	Mar 03 09:07
Diablo-D3	as in	Mar 03 09:08
DaemonFC	which is good because paying for that would be insane	Mar 03 09:08
Diablo-D3	encode an AAC file at, say 64kbps	Mar 03 09:08
Diablo-D3	it sounds mediocre	Mar 03 09:08
Diablo-D3	encode it with HE-AAC v2 at 64kbps, it'll sound much better	Mar 03 09:08
Diablo-D3	play that HE-AAC v2 file on an AAC-only player, it'll sound like that AAC-only file you encoded first!	Mar 03 09:08
DaemonFC	right	Mar 03 09:09
Diablo-D3	its not like people are making broken files here	Mar 03 09:09
DaemonFC	but it can be hard to tell if your device supports HE-AAC if the file plays either way	Mar 03 09:09
Diablo-D3	it wont sound _worse_	Mar 03 09:09
Diablo-D3	which is what Im saying	Mar 03 09:09
DaemonFC	portable media players don't document things well	Mar 03 09:09
Diablo-D3	aac 64kbps vs he-aac v2 64kbps on aac, he-aac wont sound worse	Mar 03 09:09
Diablo-D3	this is a very important thing	Mar 03 09:10
DaemonFC	right	Mar 03 09:10
Diablo-D3	the files arent broken	Mar 03 09:10
Diablo-D3	they arent incompatible	Mar 03 09:10
Diablo-D3	the player can choose to use the additional data, or it doesnt	Mar 03 09:10
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: btw, there is other shit out there	Mar 03 09:11
Diablo-D3	theres ALS	Mar 03 09:11
Diablo-D3	FLAC-like lossless	Mar 03 09:11
Diablo-D3	so its not like MPEG didnt make shit for all cases.	Mar 03 09:11
Diablo-D3	ALS uses the same techniques FLAC does and produces a pretty decent low complexity lossless codec	Mar 03 09:11
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: its funny how we've spent like an hour talking about this	Mar 03 09:13
Diablo-D3	but	Mar 03 09:13
Diablo-D3	lossy compression is kind of dead.	Mar 03 09:13
DaemonFC	FLAC works on more things oddly	Mar 03 09:13
Diablo-D3	look at blurays	Mar 03 09:13
Diablo-D3	blurays often ship with a dolby or dts track that is either extremely high bitrate or actually lossless	Mar 03 09:14
DaemonFC	yeah, the disc can hold it	Mar 03 09:14
DaemonFC	why not?	Mar 03 09:14
Diablo-D3	most pirates who are audiophiles rip shit in flac or some other less popular lossless format	Mar 03 09:15
DaemonFC	WavPack impresses me more	Mar 03 09:15
DaemonFC	but FLAC is better supported	Mar 03 09:15
Diablo-D3	see thats the thing	Mar 03 09:15
Diablo-D3	FLAC is very well understood	Mar 03 09:15
Diablo-D3	it doesnt matter if wavpack beats it	Mar 03 09:15
Diablo-D3	FLAC performs well enough	Mar 03 09:15
DaemonFC	FLAC level 8 is very close to WavPack file size anyway	Mar 03 09:16
DaemonFC	shrug	Mar 03 09:16
DaemonFC	fast CPU should still compress it fast	Mar 03 09:16
Diablo-D3	flac generally shaves a quarter or half off to begin with	Mar 03 09:16
Diablo-D3	or, generally, twice as much as a near lossless lossy file	Mar 03 09:17
DaemonFC	yeah, the difference between level 5 and 8 isn't huge	Mar 03 09:17
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DaemonFC	instead of a 30 MB track, you might get 29.7 MB	Mar 03 09:17
Diablo-D3	so theres really no point in continuing lossy stuff except on low bandwidth mediums	Mar 03 09:17
Diablo-D3	which is why everybody runs back to he-aac v2 comparisons	Mar 03 09:17
DaemonFC	8 is just very exhaustive in its attempt to compress	Mar 03 09:17
Diablo-D3	if you're already spending more than 128kbps on audio, just fucking use FLAC already	Mar 03 09:17
DaemonFC	wouldn't go that far	Mar 03 09:18
DaemonFC	if you're going over 256k, you might look into FLAC	Mar 03 09:18
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 09:18
Diablo-D3	internet bandwidth is the only real restriction	Mar 03 09:18
Diablo-D3	file size isnt	Mar 03 09:18
DaemonFC	amount of music you can carry on your portable is limited	Mar 03 09:18
Diablo-D3	not true	Mar 03 09:18
DaemonFC	oh?	Mar 03 09:18
Diablo-D3	I can easily carry around 32gb or more	Mar 03 09:18
DaemonFC	I've got 20 gigs	Mar 03 09:19
DaemonFC	FLAC overtakes that quickly	Mar 03 09:19
DaemonFC	18.6 GB after formatting	Mar 03 09:19
Diablo-D3	well	Mar 03 09:19
DaemonFC	(18.6 gigabytes) / (950 kbps) = 1.90092725 days	Mar 03 09:20
Diablo-D3	lets say flac does 700kbps	Mar 03 09:20
DaemonFC	that's not awful I guess	Mar 03 09:20
DaemonFC	(18.6 gigabytes) / (192 kbps) = 9.40562963 days	Mar 03 09:20
DaemonFC	so with FLAC I get 1.9 days, and with 192k Vorbis I get 9.4 days	Mar 03 09:20
Diablo-D3	well even, lets say worse case, 1000kbps	Mar 03 09:20
Diablo-D3	thats 25% compression	Mar 03 09:21
Diablo-D3	all your music causes flac to fail	Mar 03 09:21
DaemonFC	(18.6 gigabytes) / (1000 kbps) = 1.80588089 days	Mar 03 09:21
Diablo-D3	thats almost 2 days of fucking music	Mar 03 09:21
DaemonFC	true	Mar 03 09:21
DaemonFC	(18.6 gigabytes) / (1 411.2 kbps) = 1.2796775 days	Mar 03 09:21
Diablo-D3	you can play the whole thing and not hear the same song for 2 days	Mar 03 09:21
DaemonFC	(WAV files) rofl	Mar 03 09:21
Diablo-D3	and thats if you listen to it 24/7	Mar 03 09:22
Diablo-D3	even in your sleep	Mar 03 09:22
Diablo-D3	lets say you get in 8 hours of music a day, thats still 6 fucking days of music	Mar 03 09:22
DaemonFC	you're right, lossy compression has its days numbered	Mar 03 09:22
Diablo-D3	and thats on a pretty generic device	Mar 03 09:22
DaemonFC	lossless gives you a lot of advantages in trade for its massive files	Mar 03 09:23
DaemonFC	like ability to turn them into anything, including a CD :) without quality loss	Mar 03 09:23
Diablo-D3	dont they make 64gb iphone snow?	Mar 03 09:23
DaemonFC	maybe	Mar 03 09:23
Diablo-D3	hmm, they dont	Mar 03 09:23
DaemonFC	who knows?	Mar 03 09:23
Diablo-D3	still, they make 32gb ones	Mar 03 09:23
DaemonFC	ALAC doesn't realyl blow my skirt up :P	Mar 03 09:24
Diablo-D3	AHH	Mar 03 09:24
Diablo-D3	they make 64gb iTouches	Mar 03 09:24
Diablo-D3	thats where I saw that	Mar 03 09:24
Diablo-D3	so, lets pretend ipods can play flacs	Mar 03 09:24
Diablo-D3	thats 12 days of music!	Mar 03 09:24
DaemonFC	ipods play ALAC	Mar 03 09:24
DaemonFC	that's lossless	Mar 03 09:24
DaemonFC	the decoding functions of ALAC are reverse engineered and open source	Mar 03 09:25
DaemonFC	so it's possible to make FLAC from them	Mar 03 09:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Patents to Kill More People, Thanks to Generics Being Excluded http://ur1.ca/o7p0		Mar 03 09:25
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Intellectual Property Watch » Blog Archive » Tough IP Health Provisions In Europes Colombia/Peru Trade Deal .::. Size~: 47.71 KB	Mar 03 09:25
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: you're missing the point	Mar 03 09:25
Diablo-D3	and Im using ipod as an example	Mar 03 09:25
Diablo-D3	other manufs make ipod killers	Mar 03 09:25
Diablo-D3	but Im just saying, they ship 64gb players _now_	Mar 03 09:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Facebook and #Google Hurt #FreeSoftware by Supporting Corrupt #Patent System http://ur1.ca/o7p4 http://ur1.ca/o7p5		Mar 03 09:26
DaemonFC	ipod, really?	Mar 03 09:26
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Looking at Facebooks news feed patent « TechnoLlama .::. Size~: 94.27 KB	Mar 03 09:26
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Google Secures Broad Patent for Location-Based Advertising .::. Size~: 79.31 KB	Mar 03 09:26
DaemonFC	you didn't _buy_ it?	Mar 03 09:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Benjamin Franklin Against #SoftwarePatents http://ur1.ca/o7p6 http://ur1.ca/o7p8		Mar 03 09:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790) on Patents and Free Software. \| GHABUNTU .::. Size~: 95.47 KB	Mar 03 09:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Multimedia Codecs and Moral Quandaries \| WorksWithU .::. Size~: 45.81 KB	Mar 03 09:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux is the Market Share Champion at the High End http://ur1.ca/o7pf #pc		Mar 03 09:28
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Where do you find the world’s fastest supercomputers? \| Royal Pingdom .::. Size~: 44.79 KB	Mar 03 09:28
*chm_ (~chm@dslb-084-057-135-238.pools.arcor-ip.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 09:30
DaemonFC	(350 megabytes) / (1.5 MBps) = 3.88888889 minutes \| (24 hours) / (3.88888889 minutes) = 370.285714	Mar 03 09:44
DaemonFC	365 * 370.285714 = 135 154.286	Mar 03 09:45
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, There you go	Mar 03 09:45
Diablo-D3	what am I looking at?	Mar 03 09:46
DaemonFC	I could download about 135,154 FLAC albums in a year assuming I never let up and Comcast didn't throw me off for exceeding my cap	Mar 03 09:46
DaemonFC	and assuming the remote source kept up with my available bandwidth	Mar 03 09:47
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Diablo-D3	thats...	Mar 03 09:48
DaemonFC	(250 gigabytes) / (1.5 MBps) = 1.97530864 days	Mar 03 09:48
Diablo-D3	more music than is actually worth listening to	Mar 03 09:48
DaemonFC	time before I hit my cap	Mar 03 09:48
DaemonFC	(250 gigabytes) / (350 megabytes) = 731.428571	Mar 03 09:49
DaemonFC	number of FLAC albums until I hit the cap	Mar 03 09:49
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 09:50
Diablo-D3	but you get the point here	Mar 03 09:50
Diablo-D3	all this work is being shoved into lossy audio	Mar 03 09:50
Diablo-D3	its kind of nuts	Mar 03 09:50
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: like right now	Mar 03 09:50
DaemonFC	oh yeah	Mar 03 09:50
Diablo-D3	monty is working on a vorbis replacement	Mar 03 09:50
DaemonFC	I can download mroe FLAC albums in 1 day than I'd listen to in that year	Mar 03 09:50
DaemonFC	if bandwidth is all we're talking about	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	yeah	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	the hard part is	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	FINDING	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	said albums	Mar 03 09:51
DaemonFC	searching part is the most energy consuming	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	very rarely do I add new music to my vast collection	Mar 03 09:51
DaemonFC	most of the time you're searching, not downloading	Mar 03 09:51
DaemonFC	building a queue	Mar 03 09:51
Diablo-D3	yup	Mar 03 09:52
Diablo-D3	but yeah	Mar 03 09:52
Diablo-D3	theres only one major market left	Mar 03 09:52
Diablo-D3	internet/sat streaming.	Mar 03 09:52
Diablo-D3	and even then, although monty disagrees with me, internet is kind of over	Mar 03 09:53
Diablo-D3	virtualally all major internet radio stations have 128kbps or more as their highest quality station	Mar 03 09:53
Diablo-D3	and offer at least plain aac and/or vorbis, sometimes along with mp3 or other options	Mar 03 09:54
DaemonFC	I wouldn't even take MP3	Mar 03 09:54
DaemonFC	it's not worth free	Mar 03 09:54
Diablo-D3	you're missing the point	Mar 03 09:54
DaemonFC	I don't know why so many stores sell it	Mar 03 09:54
Diablo-D3	internet bandwidth isnt scarce as it used to be	Mar 03 09:54
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DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, 7digital is recommending Disturbed....	Mar 03 10:01
DaemonFC	facepalms	Mar 03 10:01
Diablo-D3	blurgh, what a shitty band	Mar 03 10:01
DaemonFC	if I hear Down With The Sickness one more time I'm going to scream	Mar 03 10:01
oiaohm	http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2010/03/push-on-to-take-microsoft-browser-ballot-on-worldwide-tour.ars	Mar 03 10:01
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft rivals push to send browser ballot on world tour .::. Size~: 26.75 KB	Mar 03 10:02
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: thats not even their good one	Mar 03 10:02
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Adema? Taproot?	Mar 03 10:02
Diablo-D3	Im not sure	Mar 03 10:02
Diablo-D3	Ive only heard it played, Im not sure the name	Mar 03 10:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU Linux a King of #Servers http://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/03/microsoft-funded-numbers-and-lies/		Mar 03 10:03
phIRCe-BNc	Title: GNU/Linux a King of Servers, But Microsoft Boosters Disagree \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 81.92 KB	Mar 03 10:03
DaemonFC	They like to play Poem on the radio a lot (Taproot)	Mar 03 10:03
Diablo-D3	btw, their "good" one is pretty mediocre	Mar 03 10:03
DaemonFC	not their best	Mar 03 10:03
Diablo-D3	whicever it might be	Mar 03 10:03
DaemonFC	Disturbed?	Mar 03 10:03
Diablo-D3	yeah	Mar 03 10:03
Diablo-D3	hmm, I flipped through shit of theirs on youtube	Mar 03 10:04
Diablo-D3	all of it sounds pretty uninspired	Mar 03 10:04
Diablo-D3	maybe Im thinking of a different band	Mar 03 10:04
Diablo-D3	they all sort of blend together	Mar 03 10:04
DaemonFC	the CDs to have are the out of the back of a van ones, from before they get signed	Mar 03 10:07
DaemonFC	make sure it has an autograp	Mar 03 10:07
DaemonFC	*autograph	Mar 03 10:07
Diablo-D3	I dont buy that kind of music	Mar 03 10:08
Diablo-D3	its kind of... boring	Mar 03 10:08
DaemonFC	sometimes they do their best work before they get signed	Mar 03 10:08
oiaohm	http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Android-21-and-Nexus-One-on-Verizon/?kc=rss Interisting numbers	Mar 03 10:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Android 2.1 to be available everywhere? - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 63.79 KB	Mar 03 10:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Nederland gaat illegale downloaders niet afsluiten: http://tinyurl.com/yjga8ta		Mar 03 10:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Nederland gaat illegale downloaders niet afsluiten - Security.NL .::. Size~: 19.99 KB	Mar 03 10:09
DaemonFC	http://bit.ly/bfHlqG	Mar 03 10:10
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Google Translate .::. Size~: 1.14 KB	Mar 03 10:10
Diablo-D3	ahh	Mar 03 10:11
Diablo-D3	I was thinking of a different band	Mar 03 10:11
Diablo-D3	I was thinking of drowning pool - bodies	Mar 03 10:11
Diablo-D3	which is mediocre	Mar 03 10:11
DaemonFC	Rob Zombie-ish	Mar 03 10:11
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 10:11
Diablo-D3	a tad	Mar 03 10:12
DaemonFC	I can't stand the kind of metal where you can't understand what they're saying and it's just a bunch of grunting and shit	Mar 03 10:13
oiaohm	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/02/oracle_commit_opensolaris/	Mar 03 10:13
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Oracle buys into Sun's 'Project Copy Linux' dream • The Register .::. Size~: 26.08 KB	Mar 03 10:13
DaemonFC	oiaohm, OpenSolaris is not copy Linux	Mar 03 10:14
DaemonFC	it's copy the BSDs if anything	Mar 03 10:14
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: so... most metal	Mar 03 10:17
Diablo-D3	I actually want to see a genre of instrumental metal	Mar 03 10:17
DaemonFC	a lot of it, the kind with lyrics is being dubbed Nu Metal	Mar 03 10:18
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 10:18
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Apocalyptica?	Mar 03 10:18
Diablo-D3	yeah, basically	Mar 03 10:18
Diablo-D3	apocalyptica has some really really good shit	Mar 03 10:18
oiaohm	Its not what I called it DaemonFC	Mar 03 10:20
DaemonFC	it's a penis envy thing	Mar 03 10:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple Sues #Linux Phones Using Software Patents http://ur1.ca/o7x0 @mjasay will probably still defend them sigh		Mar 03 10:54
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Apple Sues Linux Phones Using Software Patents \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 87.13 KB	Mar 03 10:54
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] At Opera, Linux and Mac are now officially job #2. http://tcrn.ch/9fh2qW Thanks a lot.... :P		Mar 03 11:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Opera 10.50 Lands On Windows, Mac And Linux Version Coming Soon .::. Size~: 69.31 KB	Mar 03 11:11
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Novell is seeking a buyout?	Mar 03 11:14
DaemonFC	http://www.themoneytimes.com/featured/20100303/elliot-offers-buy-novell-inc-2bn-novell-stock-surge-id-10102261.html	Mar 03 11:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Elliot offers to buy Novell Inc. for $2bn; Novell stock surge \| The Money Times .::. Size~: 33.47 KB	Mar 03 11:14
oiaohm	Was not seeking DaemonFC	Mar 03 11:14
oiaohm	Buyout came hunting them. ie hostile.	Mar 03 11:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[satipera] Ref Bulger. Twitter mob bays for blood, in their ignorance they feel gloriously indignant. I recommend the Daily Mail for you all.		Mar 03 11:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Bull Migrates Desktops to #OpenOffice .org, #Munich Succeeds with Migration as Well http://ur1.ca/o7z3 #odf		Mar 03 11:26
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bull Migrates Desktops to OpenOffice.org, Munich Succeeds With Migration as Well \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 84.63 KB	Mar 03 11:26
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[serk01/@serk01] New ACTA leak shows resistance to US-style DRM http://bit.ly/dlrjpQ		Mar 03 11:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: New ACTA leak shows major resistance to US-style DRM rules .::. Size~: 31.72 KB	Mar 03 11:27
*dyfet (~dyfet@pool-71-255-19-224.atclnj.east.verizon.net) has left #boycottnovell ("Ex-Chat")		Mar 03 11:31
oiaohm	Orcale backing of openoffice will push it forwards.	Mar 03 11:53
oiaohm	Thinking orcale is a solution builder.	Mar 03 11:53
DaemonFC	actually, US law is not near as bad as those ACTA drafts	Mar 03 11:53
oiaohm	But lot of those ACTA drafts are what have been applied to other countries in trade agreements. DaemonFC	Mar 03 11:54
DaemonFC	I have a feeling that it'll get stripped from ACTA and then enacted as new US laws	Mar 03 11:54
DaemonFC	yes, ACTA is born out of the frustration of trying to go and threaten or bribe every government in the world one at a time	Mar 03 11:55
DaemonFC	if they make it an international treaty, they win in one pass	Mar 03 11:55
oiaohm	Problem is indvidual treaties with the usa have already been made.	Mar 03 11:56
oiaohm	So USA hands are basically tied unless they want to break those treaties	Mar 03 11:56
DaemonFC	oiaohm, The problem with treaties is that they are too easy to enter into	Mar 03 12:00
DaemonFC	it requires Senate approval and the President's signature	Mar 03 12:00
DaemonFC	I think they should have to go to the states, personally	Mar 03 12:01
oiaohm	And very tricky to get out of.	Mar 03 12:01
oiaohm	Here treaties have to pass the parlement floor	Mar 03 12:01
DaemonFC	oiaohm, Forgive my ignorance, but where does the queen fit into your government	Mar 03 12:02
DaemonFC	other than being the queen of course	Mar 03 12:02
DaemonFC	can she overrule anything she wants?	Mar 03 12:02
DaemonFC	or dictate the law?	Mar 03 12:02
oiaohm	queen has no power over law.	Mar 03 12:02
oiaohm	Queen has one power to dismiss the parlement completely	Mar 03 12:03
DaemonFC	so basically that's all, and then you elect a new one?	Mar 03 12:03
oiaohm	Yep.	Mar 03 12:03
DaemonFC	hmmm	Mar 03 12:03
oiaohm	Has only happened once.	Mar 03 12:03
DaemonFC	not many weapons in that arsenal, only a nuke	Mar 03 12:03
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 12:03
oiaohm	Queen cannot even declare war.	Mar 03 12:04
oiaohm	She is basically powerless other than the means to dismiss.	Mar 03 12:04
DaemonFC	well, there's a big (ish?) movement in Canada to get rid of the monarchy	Mar 03 12:04
DaemonFC	people are saying the Canadians may just not select an heir or whatever when the queen dies	Mar 03 12:04
DaemonFC	as a way of getting rid of them for good	Mar 03 12:05
oiaohm	Here with how powerless the queen is working out how to get replacement is hard.	Mar 03 12:05
oiaohm	Thinking the queen power is done by the governer general.	Mar 03 12:05
DaemonFC	personally, I wouldn't want a common head of state with several other countries	Mar 03 12:05
oiaohm	So queen cannot even dismiss alone.	Mar 03 12:05
DaemonFC	so I can't blame them	Mar 03 12:06
oiaohm	So our head of state is one of the least powerful anywhere.	Mar 03 12:06
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 12:06
DaemonFC	she's one step away from being just a formality	Mar 03 12:06
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] Denúncia de fraude contra os interesses da UE https://fns.olaf.europa.eu/cgi-bin/disclaimer_cgi?p=q&lang=pt		Mar 03 12:07
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB	Mar 03 12:07
DaemonFC	oiaohm, I wonder how different the US would be had we never overthrown the British	Mar 03 12:07
oiaohm	Lot of the reason why replacement to our monarchy is lot of the anti monarchy wanted to give the head of state more power.	Mar 03 12:07
DaemonFC	several countries had claims here	Mar 03 12:07
DaemonFC	including France and Spain	Mar 03 12:08
oiaohm	Who wants a super powerful head of state.	Mar 03 12:08
DaemonFC	Canada disputed the border for a while	Mar 03 12:08
DaemonFC	oiaohm, you still have a complete asshole that ends up running a lot of stuff somewhere	Mar 03 12:09
DaemonFC	it happens in every government	Mar 03 12:09
oiaohm	We got howard did we not.	Mar 03 12:09
DaemonFC	yes	Mar 03 12:09
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 12:09
oiaohm	Our trouble starts at prime mister.	Mar 03 12:09
DaemonFC	Bush clone #3	Mar 03 12:10
oiaohm	Yep head of state is not a problem.	Mar 03 12:10
DaemonFC	head of government is	Mar 03 12:10
oiaohm	At least in our system we have 1 to blame.	Mar 03 12:10
DaemonFC	in the US, the President is both	Mar 03 12:10
DaemonFC	but he can delegate the ceremonial stuff to the Vice President	Mar 03 12:10
oiaohm	ceremonial stuff is all the goverment general job.	Mar 03 12:11
DaemonFC	Dick Cheney was also the Acting President of the US for a few hours on a couple occasions when they were doing surgery on Bush	Mar 03 12:11
DaemonFC	shivers	Mar 03 12:11
oiaohm	Also the goverment general also has the job of checking people going into goverments criminal record.	Mar 03 12:11
oiaohm	If they have a record they are not allowed in of course.	Mar 03 12:12
DaemonFC	sounds like it's easier to be a criminal who hasn't done anything all that wrong there	Mar 03 12:12
DaemonFC	Selling a video game is practically a felony :P	Mar 03 12:12
DaemonFC	oiaohm, So since you have no protections on speech an expression, can you be arrested for peaceful protests?	Mar 03 12:13
DaemonFC	or publishing that you think the prime minister is a shithead?	Mar 03 12:13
oiaohm	If you can prove he is a shithead you have nothing to worry about. Basically if it true you have nothing to legally worry about.	Mar 03 12:14
oiaohm	Peaceful protests also don't get you a crimminal record.	Mar 03 12:14
DaemonFC	well, like if I type up that I think government official X is doing a terrible job and that I think that it's his policy on y that brought on problem z.....	Mar 03 12:15
DaemonFC	am I in trouble for stating that those are my opinions?	Mar 03 12:15
oiaohm	Bit that is hard for you usa people to get. Free/fair trade and anti descrimination covers most of what USA people call free speech.	Mar 03 12:16
DaemonFC	an what would happen if you had a teabagger-style protest group out there that was just mindlessly shouting "NAZI!" "SOCIALIST!" "KILL HIM!!!"?	Mar 03 12:17
oiaohm	They would be in trouble. DaemonFC	Mar 03 12:17
oiaohm	You cannot lawfully here threaten harm.	Mar 03 12:17
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 12:18
DaemonFC	well, I agree with that much	Mar 03 12:18
oiaohm	Calling them Nazi or Socialist if they are acting that way its legal.	Mar 03 12:18
schestowitz	[10:14] <DaemonFC> oiaohm, OpenSolaris is not copy Linux	Mar 03 12:18
schestowitz	True	Mar 03 12:18
schestowitz	That's just MS booster Clarke smearing it	Mar 03 12:18
schestowitz	As usual	Mar 03 12:18
oiaohm	Now if its just slander you are in trouble. DaemonFC	Mar 03 12:18
schestowitz	[10:13] <phIRCe-BNc> Title: Oracle buys into Sun's 'Project Copy Linux' dream • The Register .::. Size~: 26.08 KB	Mar 03 12:18
DaemonFC	OpenSolaris striked me as more like BSD	Mar 03 12:19
DaemonFC	*strikes	Mar 03 12:19
oiaohm	Basically we have a truthfulness requirement. DaemonFC	Mar 03 12:19
oiaohm	So free speech as long as you are saying the truth.	Mar 03 12:19
DaemonFC	you can sue someone for slander and libel here	Mar 03 12:20
DaemonFC	the government can't arrest them for it though	Mar 03 12:20
oiaohm	Really the indviduals in the goverment here can.	Mar 03 12:20
DaemonFC	if someone started printing lies about me in the paper for example, I could sue the paper and name the writer as co-defendant	Mar 03 12:21
DaemonFC	they would have to prove that what they said about me was more than likely true	Mar 03 12:22
DaemonFC	and my job is to position it as more than likely false	Mar 03 12:22
DaemonFC	also, the reason you see lawsuits here asking for outrageous damages is because the jury can't award more than what was asked for	Mar 03 12:23
DaemonFC	like of I sued you and asked for a million dollars, they might give me $500,000	Mar 03 12:23
schestowitz	Mac Asay: "@schestowitz No, I'm very consistent on this: I hate using the law as a biz club. Legal recourse is a sign of failure" http://twitter.com/mjasay/statuses/9920078472	Mar 03 12:23
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Twitter / Matt Asay: @schestowitz No, I'm very ... .::. Size~: 10.19 KB	Mar 03 12:23
DaemonFC	but if I only asked for $100,000 that's what I'd get	Mar 03 12:23
DaemonFC	always ask for many times what you think you can get	Mar 03 12:24
oiaohm	Here it is a bit different.	Mar 03 12:24
oiaohm	If you over claim you most likely will get nothing here.	Mar 03 12:24
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 12:25
oiaohm	Remember I said about truthfulness requirement in trade here.	Mar 03 12:25
oiaohm	If you claim what it truly costs you. The judge can award damages multiables of what you claim as damages.	Mar 03 12:26
DaemonFC	the hostile takeover of Novell is a sign that they're not doing well	Mar 03 12:26
Diablo-D3	novell is going under?	Mar 03 12:26
Diablo-D3	YES	Mar 03 12:26
DaemonFC	and that someone thinks they can buy them and either gut them or turn them around	Mar 03 12:26
oiaohm	Now if you claim more than what it truly costs in australian courts DaemonFC it classed as lieing to the court.	Mar 03 12:26
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Gordon Gekko is offering to buy Novell ;)	Mar 03 12:27
oiaohm	So lie to court you deserve nothing. DaemonFC	Mar 03 12:27
Diablo-D3	who?	Mar 03 12:27
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Gekko	Mar 03 12:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Gordon Gekko - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 35.68 KB	Mar 03 12:27
DaemonFC	was a reference to "Wall Street"	Mar 03 12:27
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_%281987_film%29	Mar 03 12:28
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.0 403 Forbidden .::. Size~: 0 KB	Mar 03 12:28
Diablo-D3	Ive never seen it	Mar 03 12:28
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Gekko, in the movie, likes to buy failing businesses, gut out their assets for himself, rip off the employees, and then shut them down	Mar 03 12:29
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 12:29
DaemonFC	the firm offering to buy Novell reminded me of Gordon Gekko	Mar 03 12:29
DaemonFC	"Greed is good."	Mar 03 12:29
Diablo-D3	so uh	Mar 03 12:30
Diablo-D3	basically every large scale investor ever?	Mar 03 12:30
Diablo-D3	thats a common tactic for businesses that have assets you want	Mar 03 12:30
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, He's supposed to be a Jack Welch type	Mar 03 12:30
schestowitz	Me: " @mjasay maybe you can do a post to chastise them for it? :-)"	Mar 03 12:30
DaemonFC	yeah, there's a lot of Gordon Gekko's out there	Mar 03 12:30
oiaohm	I remember danny devito doing a movie like gordon Gekko	Mar 03 12:33
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[satipera] Very sad day, Michael Foot has died.		Mar 03 12:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Benjamin Franklin Would Have Disliked Patents, Tim Bray Leaves, #Patents Kill, Ridiculous Software Patents Named http://ur1.ca/o84c		Mar 03 12:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Installing Debian Lenny on a neighbour's very old laptop (64 MiB), always fun, installing GNU/Linux on a old piece of junk ;-)		Mar 03 12:41
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Patents Roundup: Benjamin Franklin Would Have Disliked Patents, Tim Bray Leaves, Patents Kill, Ridiculous Software Patents Named \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 92.01 KB	Mar 03 12:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Oops 64 MiB RAM that is... Ran a "non genuine" version of Win XP Home.		Mar 03 12:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] @ml2mst - Clearly you need to spend more than the machine is worth to "Get Genuine". :)		Mar 03 12:46
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Nvidia shows off two GPU power saving design, but #AMD is just going to blend GPU/CPU together for better power savings http://ur1.ca/o84p		Mar 03 12:47
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- Optimus Engineering Coolness for GeForce and ION .::. Size~: 121.49 KB	Mar 03 12:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Analyst Expects #Microsoft Bid to Buy #Novell http://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/03/richard-williams-on-novl/		Mar 03 12:50
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] No Gnote for you. Have some Tomboy while you wait. http://bit.ly/9C0rRA #Ubuntu		Mar 03 12:50
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Analyst Expects Microsoft Bid to Buy Novell \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 79.49 KB	Mar 03 12:50
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bug #522372 in gnote (Ubuntu): “gnote crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_text_iter_get_offset()” .::. Size~: 64.61 KB	Mar 03 12:50
oiaohm	http://www.economist.com/science-technology/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15543683 Hmm	Mar 03 12:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Printing body parts: Making a bit of me \| The Economist .::. Size~: 57.39 KB	Mar 03 12:56
schestowitz	Good luck printing living cells :-)	Mar 03 12:56
schestowitz	Need small printer and very specific matrials	Mar 03 12:57
oiaohm	http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives/2010/03/dell_mistakenly_charges_100k_for_linux_netbook.html << lol	Mar 03 12:58
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Dell Mistakenly Charges $100k For Linux Netbook .::. Size~: 30.43 KB	Mar 03 12:58
oiaohm	Printing with living cells already has been done. The issue is more strength of final item. schestowitz	Mar 03 12:59
oiaohm	http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/operating-systems/windows/news/index.cfm?newsId=19109 This is getting so sadly wrong it not funny.	Mar 03 13:02
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft warns Windows XP users, 'don't touch the F1 key' - Windows - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 84.93 KB	Mar 03 13:02
Diablo-D3	oiaohm: dude	Mar 03 13:03
Diablo-D3	its hilarious	Mar 03 13:03
oiaohm	F1 is help	Mar 03 13:04
oiaohm	In a lot of programs.	Mar 03 13:04
oiaohm	Even in KDE	Mar 03 13:04
Diablo-D3	yes, thats the problem	Mar 03 13:05
oiaohm	I guess not correct rendering engine seperation.	Mar 03 13:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[eduvid] FOSS jobs in India http://bit.ly/aPJk7t http://bit.ly/b3Vuwn		Mar 03 13:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Fwd: FOSS jobs in India part2 - Linux User Group @ IIT Delhi \| Google Groups .::. Size~: 57.95 KB	Mar 03 13:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Fwd: FOSS jobs in India - Linux User Group @ IIT Delhi \| Google Groups .::. Size~: 59.71 KB	Mar 03 13:09
DaemonFC	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=reiser4_benchmarks&num=1	Mar 03 13:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: [Phoronix] Finally, Reiser4 Benchmarks Against EXT4 & Btrfs .::. Size~: 19.4 KB	Mar 03 13:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @webmink: Bogus Copyright Claim Silences Yet Another Larry Lessig YouTube Presentation The finest.. http://bit.ly/bEjyWR		Mar 03 13:22
phIRCe-BNc	Title: links for 2010-03-03 « Wild Webmink .::. Size~: 31.77 KB	Mar 03 13:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: BBC Trust happy to leave Mark Thompson twisting in the wind http://newstechnica.com/?p=1787		Mar 03 13:30
phIRCe-BNc	Title: BBC Trust happy to leave Mark Thompson twisting in the wind \| NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 37.46 KB	Mar 03 13:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft Not Only Broke the Law in #Europe , So Browser Ballot Should Become International http://ur1.ca/o88m #crime		Mar 03 13:32
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft Not Only Broke the Law in Europe, So Browser Ballot Should Become International \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 87.61 KB	Mar 03 13:32
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @jamie_love: Huffpo: US Trade Rep serves drug companies, publishers and pushes anti-consumer agenda http://bit.ly/bEj8GG #acta #ustr		Mar 03 13:38
phIRCe-BNc	Title: James Love: US Trade Rep serves drug companies, publishers and pushes anti-consumer agenda .::. Size~: 96.57 KB	Mar 03 13:38
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] New Blog Post "Ade Bradshaw vs Reading Comprehension" http://bit.ly/aLY6lK @Ade_B :p		Mar 03 13:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Ade Bradshaw vs Reading Comprehension \| popey.com blog .::. Size~: 25.07 KB	Mar 03 13:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Steve Jobs: We can sit by and watch competitors steal our patented inventions, or we can do something about it: http://i5.be/ayz		Mar 03 13:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Apple Sues Phone Maker HTC Over Patents - Bits Blog - NYTimes.com .::. Size~: 74.22 KB	Mar 03 13:56
DaemonFC	what did Apple invent?	Mar 03 13:58
Diablo-D3	nothing	Mar 03 13:59
DaemonFC	"Cellphone makers have been playing catchup to the iPhone since it was introduced in June 2007"	Mar 03 14:00
DaemonFC	knee slapper	Mar 03 14:00
DaemonFC	I'd rather not pay $500 for a phone with less features than the one I have :)	Mar 03 14:00
Diablo-D3	yarly	Mar 03 14:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Most of the patents that Apple is using against HTC are software patents: http://i5.be/ayA		Mar 03 14:02
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Apple HTC Suit Gallery - - Gizmodo .::. Size~: 75.34 KB	Mar 03 14:02
oiaohm	Was anyone majorally using a linked app store before iphone	Mar 03 14:02
Diablo-D3	no, and no one is now! dooooohohohohohoho!	Mar 03 14:03
DaemonFC	who cares?	Mar 03 14:03
DaemonFC	I need an app that farts when I push the button	Mar 03 14:03
DaemonFC	(they have that in the app store)	Mar 03 14:03
MinceR	it's an interesting kind of "catchup"	Mar 03 14:04
DaemonFC	I need an app that turns my phone into a compass (because the ones at the dollar store have an annoying tendency to work all the time)	Mar 03 14:04
MinceR	such as releasing a pda/phone that does more than the hypePhone and costs less, before the first hypePhone was announced	Mar 03 14:04
MinceR	i'd love to play "catchup" that way	Mar 03 14:04
DaemonFC	Apple has invented nothing, they've filed for patent troll style patents	Mar 03 14:05
MinceR	i wonder how many people use fart sounds as their ringtone	Mar 03 14:05
DaemonFC	MinceR, They need to make a ringtone that says "Follow the sound of my voice and stab the person holding the phone repeatedly"	Mar 03 14:05
MinceR	lol	Mar 03 14:05
DaemonFC	and make sure you can't change that	Mar 03 14:05
DaemonFC	it would never go past the first ring :)	Mar 03 14:06
Diablo-D3	just change it to its a small world	Mar 03 14:06
Diablo-D3	wont get past the second stanza	Mar 03 14:06
*oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)		Mar 03 14:06
MinceR	won't "i'm a bitch of steve jobs" work as well?	Mar 03 14:06
DaemonFC	change it that "I like big butts" song	Mar 03 14:07
MinceR	the visuals say so already	Mar 03 14:07
DaemonFC	http://popup.lala.com/popup/504684646362438958	Mar 03 14:07
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Lala Song Player - Baby Got Back (Album Version) by Sir Mix-A-Lot .::. Size~: 22.52 KB	Mar 03 14:07
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 14:07
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h05ZQ7WHw8Y	Mar 03 14:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- The WTF Blanket (Snuggie Parody) .::. Size~: 167.02 KB	Mar 03 14:09
*DaemonFC has one		Mar 03 14:09
DaemonFC	I got it at Big Lots :P	Mar 03 14:11
DaemonFC	cheap	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	> Hi, Roy,	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	>	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	> I notice that the Halloween Documents are still not back up on the OSI	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	> site.	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	>	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	> http://web.archive.org/web/20060405113918/http://www.opensource.org/halloween/	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	>	Mar 03 14:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Open Source Initiative OSI - Halloween Documents .::. Size~: 5.1 KB	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	> Five years...	Mar 03 14:11
schestowitz	Just moved. I doubt there's anything nefarious here.	Mar 03 14:11
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MI99t9k4aEE	Mar 03 14:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- THE MAGICAL IPAD (Parody) .::. Size~: 171 KB	Mar 03 14:14
MinceR	they've been missing from there for a long time	Mar 03 14:14
MinceR	so it's definitely suspicious	Mar 03 14:14
DaemonFC	"ipad has half the functionality of a netbook at twice the price"	Mar 03 14:15
DaemonFC	true	Mar 03 14:15
DaemonFC	"tampon joke is too easy"	Mar 03 14:15
DaemonFC	also true	Mar 03 14:16
DaemonFC	"big old ipod touch"	Mar 03 14:16
DaemonFC	true	Mar 03 14:16
DaemonFC	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RoGFDoylV5Q&feature=channel	Mar 03 14:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- A Frat Boy Reviews "Avatar" .::. Size~: 152.56 KB	Mar 03 14:17
DaemonFC	this guy is good	Mar 03 14:17
schestowitz	http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9164338/Topeka_renames_itself_..._Google_Kansas_ Topeka renames itself ... Google, Kansas?	Mar 03 14:21
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Topeka renames itself ... Google, Kansas? .::. Size~: 118.79 KB	Mar 03 14:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[satipera] Michael Foot, shows the level of political debate has never been high in media, they are still on about "donkey jacket" on the day he died		Mar 03 14:21
BNtwitter has quit (.net *.split)		Mar 03 14:39
DaemonFC	"IC 7.1-5-10-14 Sales to Habitual Drunkards Prohibited. It is unlawful for a permittee to sell, barter, exchange, give, provide, or furnish an alcoholic beverage to a person whom he knows to be a habitual drunkard."	Mar 03 14:41
DaemonFC	lol, well, the people at the bars my mom's ex husband goes to are committing a crime	Mar 03 14:41
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DaemonFC	hmmm, it's a class C misdemeanor for a minor to buy liquor, but stores also have the option of requiring customers to sign a form stating that they're 21 or older, and it's another C misdemeanor if the minor signs that form	Mar 03 14:44
DaemonFC	the possession of the fake ID is another C misdemeanor	Mar 03 14:45
DaemonFC	and another C misdemeanor to posses the liquor	Mar 03 14:46
DaemonFC	so if a minor tries to buy alcohol with a fake ID, they're looking at 1 year	Mar 03 14:47
DaemonFC	and 4 misdemeanor criminal charges	Mar 03 14:47
*DaemonFC wonders why he's so bored that he's reading random parts of the Indiana criminal code		Mar 03 14:48
MinceR	so minors buying ethanol is almost as bad as copyright infringement? :>	Mar 03 14:48
DaemonFC	MinceR, Well, if I bought alcohol for a minor, I would commit a D Felony	Mar 03 14:49
DaemonFC	and risk 5 years in prison :D	Mar 03 14:49
DaemonFC	but Indiana suspends half of whatever you get sentenced to automatically in most cases	Mar 03 14:49
DaemonFC	prison over crowding ftw	Mar 03 14:50
DaemonFC	I got a 180 day suspended sentence for something I did as a minor	Mar 03 14:50
DaemonFC	that's void now obviously	Mar 03 14:50
DaemonFC	I won't comment other than that it was funny then and it's funnier than hell to think about now	Mar 03 14:51
MinceR	Sir Alexander Dane: Could they be the miners?	Mar 03 14:52
MinceR	Fred Kwan: Sure, they're like three years old.	Mar 03 14:52
MinceR	Sir Alexander Dane: MINERS, not MINORS.	Mar 03 14:52
MinceR	Fred Kwan: You lost me.	Mar 03 14:52
DaemonFC	I got this really wicked child probation officer who thought she was going to be wicked and evil and torture me for two years cause I was broke and couldn't pay the fees to get off probation	Mar 03 14:52
DaemonFC	so I showed up the day before it was scheduled to end (6 months) and paid it on her day off	Mar 03 14:53
DaemonFC	and it expired before she came back to the office the following day to renew my probation	Mar 03 14:53
DaemonFC	I didn't want to give her the chance to object	Mar 03 14:54
DaemonFC	MinceR, I learned early that if someone is underestimating and thinking very little of you, let them	Mar 03 14:55
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Today I am mapping a minefield by iterative tapdancing. BOOM "I'll just add that to the wiki, shall I."		Mar 03 14:55
DaemonFC	bust into a Weight Watchers meeting and tell them there's hot fudge brownies on the other side of the field	Mar 03 14:57
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 14:57
MinceR	:D	Mar 03 14:59
DaemonFC	http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/indiana	Mar 03 15:00
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Dumb Laws in Indiana. Crazy Indiana Laws. We have weird laws, strange laws, and just plain crazy laws! .::. Size~: 15.16 KB	Mar 03 15:00
DaemonFC	"The value of Pi is 3."	Mar 03 15:01
DaemonFC	that was repealed	Mar 03 15:01
DaemonFC	the religious and sexual ones are unenforceable	Mar 03 15:01
MinceR	int pi = 3.141592654;	Mar 03 15:01
MinceR	printf( "%d\n", pi );	Mar 03 15:02
MinceR	;)	Mar 03 15:02
*trmanco (~40e547be@gateway/web/freenode/x-zynchihazkajoeyv) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 15:02
DaemonFC	"You can get out of paying for a dependent’s medical care by praying for him/her."	Mar 03 15:03
DaemonFC	"(c) It is a defense that the accused person, in the legitimate practice of his religious belief, provided treatment by spiritual means through prayer, in lieu of medical care, to his dependent child."	Mar 03 15:03
DaemonFC	dangerous	Mar 03 15:03
DaemonFC	http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/boy-directs-air-traffic-jfk-airport-caught-tape/story?id=9995927	Mar 03 15:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: JFK Airport: Boy Directs Air Traffic Control, Caught on Tape - ABC News .::. Size~: 55.54 KB	Mar 03 15:17
DaemonFC	BAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!	Mar 03 15:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Microsoft ’s Government Insider Wants Mac Users and #GNU #Linux Users to Pay Microsoft for Its Incompetence http://ur1.ca/o8jv		Mar 03 15:18
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Remember what happened to the last country which got a billion dollar #us embassy. http://bit.ly/aSop1Q #uk #london #waste #paranoia		Mar 03 15:18
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsofts Government Insider Wants Mac Users and GNU/Linux Users to Pay Microsoft for Its Incompetence \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 90.26 KB	Mar 03 15:18
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Two Jury Members Opposed Pick for U.S... - Google News .::. Size~: 58.43 KB	Mar 03 15:18
schestowitz	http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/2010/02/28/my-frustration-with-internet-explorer/	Mar 03 15:19
phIRCe-BNc	Title: dd if=/dev/random of=/dev/blog » My frustration with Internet Explorer. .::. Size~: 20.28 KB	Mar 03 15:19
DaemonFC	http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/03/AR2010030300654.html	Mar 03 15:20
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Same-sex couples line up as D.C. gay marriage law takes effect - washingtonpost.com .::. Size~: 111.98 KB	Mar 03 15:20
DaemonFC	http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2010/02/24/2010-02-24_new_1b_us_embassy_in_london_will_feature_a_moat_to_prevent_terrorist_attacks.html	Mar 03 15:22
phIRCe-BNc	Title: New $1B U.S. embassy in London will feature a moat to prevent terrorist attacks .::. Size~: 46.29 KB	Mar 03 15:22
DaemonFC	nice	Mar 03 15:22
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DaemonFC	schestowitz, a moat really stops terrorists?	Mar 03 15:24
DaemonFC	What is this? The 16th century?	Mar 03 15:24
MinceR	it does, until it's paid for	Mar 03 15:24
MinceR	then it suddenly doesn't	Mar 03 15:24
MinceR	and you need a bigger moat or something, etc.	Mar 03 15:24
schestowitz	DaemonFC: no, but it looks neat	Mar 03 15:24
DaemonFC	They should ask Douglas Hogg who he recommends for moat cleanings	Mar 03 15:25
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 15:25
DaemonFC	bbiab	Mar 03 15:25
schestowitz	DaemonFC: the terror~1 could just go to home of embassy employees	Mar 03 15:25
schestowitz	This is silly	Mar 03 15:25
schestowitz	The embassy does nothing more than represent something	Mar 03 15:25
schestowitz	It's not as tough it's the only place where USians live in a bunker inside the UK	Mar 03 15:26
schestowitz	The BN server is under too much load (LAG!!) without the proxy	Mar 03 15:29
schestowitz	I guess it grew in readership to the point where it can't serve without making static page	Mar 03 15:30
schestowitz	*pages	Mar 03 15:30
schestowitz	Or serve slowly	Mar 03 15:30
trmanco	hey	Mar 03 15:37
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Looks more like decadent modern art nightmare to me	Mar 03 15:44
DaemonFC	and damned expensive	Mar 03 15:44
DaemonFC	a billion dollars? Are there sharks with "fricken laser beams" in that moat?	Mar 03 15:45
DaemonFC	what are we buying exactly?	Mar 03 15:46
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] RT @directhex In absence of new car, I occupy myself with other things. Behold Ubuntu One Music Store in Mono: http://bit.ly/aNN5xO		Mar 03 15:46
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DaemonFC	sharks with Ubuntu-powered laser beams	Mar 03 15:47
DaemonFC	jono showed them how to interface everything in Python	Mar 03 15:47
jono	sharks with python	Mar 03 15:47
jono	yes!	Mar 03 15:47
schestowitz	Hey, trmanco	Mar 03 15:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] The stupid banking software (Natwest) locked me out of my account temporarily for using #Konqueror with #Firefox browser strings.		Mar 03 15:48
DaemonFC	jono, We're talking about the $1 billion US embassy in London that's planned	Mar 03 15:48
DaemonFC	and the moat	Mar 03 15:48
DaemonFC	and the laser beam sharks that stop terrorists	Mar 03 15:48
DaemonFC	that last bit is speculative	Mar 03 15:49
jono	haha	Mar 03 15:49
jono	"a bit" :-)	Mar 03 15:49
DaemonFC	jono, I figured $1 billion has to buy something	Mar 03 15:49
DaemonFC	even in this economy	Mar 03 15:49
DaemonFC	they're saying the moat is an anti-terrorist measure	Mar 03 15:50
DaemonFC	I guess terrorists can't swim or wade across it	Mar 03 15:50
schestowitz	What for?	Mar 03 15:50
schestowitz	What's inside?	Mar 03 15:50
schestowitz	Mecca?	Mar 03 15:50
trmanco	hey schestowitz	Mar 03 15:50
schestowitz	Just US citizens?	Mar 03 15:51
trmanco	I'm using chrome now	Mar 03 15:51
schestowitz	Money?	Mar 03 15:51
schestowitz	Gold plates?	Mar 03 15:51
trmanco	the extensions are great	Mar 03 15:51
schestowitz	trmanco: I use Konqueror and ThunderBrowse	Mar 03 15:51
schestowitz	Firfox share might decline	Mar 03 15:51
schestowitz	Tough market	Mar 03 15:51
DaemonFC	schestowitz, I can understand killing for money, gold bars, etc.	Mar 03 15:51
DaemonFC	I can't imagine killing over a deity	Mar 03 15:51
DaemonFC	that's just inexplicable	Mar 03 15:52
schestowitz	So when people take picture next to a nice channel of water they'll be arrested for assisting terror~1 by publishing photography to assist planning ;-)	Mar 03 15:52
DaemonFC	I could never be a religious terrorist, I could be a mercenary	Mar 03 15:52
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 15:52
schestowitz	DaemonFC: the deity is maybe an excuse	Mar 03 15:52
schestowitz	DaemonFC: I know you could	Mar 03 15:53
DaemonFC	schestowitz, There'd have to be a lot of money in it for me	Mar 03 15:54
DaemonFC	at least I demand tangible things for myself	Mar 03 15:54
DaemonFC	that's more than most people would kill for	Mar 03 15:54
*chm_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)		Mar 03 15:55
DaemonFC	some people would kill cause they're crazy	Mar 03 15:55
DaemonFC	some people would kill because you made them mad	Mar 03 15:56
DaemonFC	some people would kill because "god" told them to	Mar 03 15:56
DaemonFC	and some people kill for money	Mar 03 15:56
DaemonFC	out of all that, I could only understand doing it for money or for revenge over severe grievances	Mar 03 15:57
DaemonFC	I just can't imagine getting myself killed or thrown in prison without something making that risk pretty much worth it	Mar 03 15:58
trmanco	https://developer.mozilla.org/devnews/index.php/2010/03/03/mozilla-developer-preview-now-available-with-out-of-process-plugins/	Mar 03 15:58
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Mozilla Developer News » Blog Archive » Mozilla Developer Preview Now Available With Out-of-Process Plugins .::. Size~: 23.73 KB	Mar 03 15:58
DaemonFC	I can't process the thinking pattern behind the other kinds of killers	Mar 03 15:58
schestowitz	http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2010/03/is-open-source-software-more-s.html	Mar 03 15:59
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Is Open Source Software More Secure? - InternetNews:The Blog - Sean Michael Kerner .::. Size~: 107.97 KB	Mar 03 15:59
DaemonFC	schestowitz, I don't know why people aren't biased against straight white christian men, that's what Timothy McVeigh was	Mar 03 16:01
schestowitz	http://stop.zona-m.net/node/106	Mar 03 16:03
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Junior High students in Monza build their own Ubuntu computers \| Stop! .::. Size~: 14.55 KB	Mar 03 16:03
schestowitz	DaemonFC: and that dude who crashed a plane into IRS building the other week	Mar 03 16:03
DaemonFC	The FBI has to infiltrate all kins of those straight white Christian terrorist groups	Mar 03 16:03
DaemonFC	all over the USA	Mar 03 16:03
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 16:03
DaemonFC	yep	Mar 03 16:04
schestowitz	DaemonFC: http://richarddawkins.net/articles/107	Mar 03 16:04
phIRCe-BNc	Title: 'Root of All Evil? Part 1: The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins - Channel 4 - RichardDawkins.net .::. Size~: 44 KB	Mar 03 16:04
schestowitz	In the programme he speaks to a friend a x-ian who murdered a doctor from an abortion clinic	Mar 03 16:05
schestowitz	He got executed	Mar 03 16:05
DaemonFC	When is that last time you saw a gay man strap a bomb onto himself? Yet Americans trust gay men even less than they do Muslims.	Mar 03 16:05
DaemonFC	Isn't that something?	Mar 03 16:05
DaemonFC	people just defy explanation	Mar 03 16:06
schestowitz	Desktop Linux vs. Windows 7 < http://www.fewt.com/2010/02/desktop-linux-vs-windows-7.html >. Biased?	Mar 03 16:07
phIRCe-BNc	Title: fewt@blog:~$ _: Desktop Linux vs. Windows 7 .::. Size~: 170.37 KB	Mar 03 16:07
schestowitz	DaemonFC: except the guy from Munster who ate his boyfriend	Mar 03 16:07
DaemonFC	schestowitz, There may have been other factors at play in that.	Mar 03 16:08
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 16:08
schestowitz	http://www.enterprisemobiletoday.com/news/article.php/3867571/Rubenstein-Admits-Newest-Palm-Handhelds-Not-Paying-Off.htm	Mar 03 16:08
schestowitz	DaemonFC: it was consensual too	Mar 03 16:08
schestowitz	But it's a different debate altogether	Mar 03 16:08
DaemonFC	hmmmm, that's something you don't see everyday	Mar 03 16:09
schestowitz	trmanco: http://thetechjournal.com/internet/firefox-4-updates-roadmaps-and-changes-so-far.xhtml	Mar 03 16:09
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Firefox 4 Updates, Roadmaps And Changes So Far \| TheTechJournal.com -:- Technological News Portal .::. Size~: 104.3 KB	Mar 03 16:09
DaemonFC	"Desktop Linux distributions could improve the installation process significantly from studying a Windows 7 installation." WTF	Mar 03 16:09
DaemonFC	Did he actually INSTALL a Linux LiveCD?	Mar 03 16:10
DaemonFC	couldn't be easier	Mar 03 16:10
DaemonFC	what you see is what you get, the only part that you may consider is how to partition	Mar 03 16:10
DaemonFC	what could be easier?	Mar 03 16:10
schestowitz	Yeah, Microsoft has a good installer	Mar 03 16:11
schestowitz	It's called "OEM'	Mar 03 16:11
DaemonFC	shhhh, don't let Jono know I use XFS extensively, they'll delete the module just to fuck with me :P	Mar 03 16:11
DaemonFC	:D	Mar 03 16:11
schestowitz	http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/linux-fund-brings-spend-and-support-model-uk	Mar 03 16:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Linux Fund Brings Spend-and-Support Model to the UK \| Linux Journal .::. Size~: 34.4 KB	Mar 03 16:12
DaemonFC	btw jono Thank your overlords for me for the superb and first rate XFS support	Mar 03 16:12
DaemonFC	and I mean that :)	Mar 03 16:12
jono	DaemonFC, :)	Mar 03 16:12
DaemonFC	my hard drives thank you too	Mar 03 16:13
DaemonFC	I want to get my hands on an SSD	Mar 03 16:13
DaemonFC	slap an XFS partition on one of those puppies	Mar 03 16:13
DaemonFC	I suspect it would be freaking fast	Mar 03 16:13
schestowitz	DaemonFC: that Vista 7 article 'pulled a Byfield', methinks http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3867956/KDE-and-GNOME-Seven-Irritations-in-Each.htm	Mar 03 16:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: KDE and GNOME: Seven Irritations in Each — Datamation.com .::. Size~: 66.67 KB	Mar 03 16:14
DaemonFC	meh, people hate KDE, other people hate GNOME	Mar 03 16:14
DaemonFC	that's why there's options	Mar 03 16:14
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 16:14
DaemonFC	I use what I like	Mar 03 16:14
schestowitz	DaemonFC: but you only play Songbird	Mar 03 16:14
schestowitz	it doesn't do much i/o	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	Songbird has gotten quite good	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	that's not all I do	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	a little overhead here and a little there add up	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	also, Ext3/4 waste lots of disk space	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	XFS does not	Mar 03 16:15
DaemonFC	XFS also does not reserve 10% of the root partition	Mar 03 16:16
DaemonFC	XFS has a defrag utility for if things get really hairy, so it avoids some of the crippling that was done to Ext3/4	Mar 03 16:16
DaemonFC	XFS is pretty superior on many use cases	Mar 03 16:17
DaemonFC	not all, but a lot	Mar 03 16:17
DaemonFC	schestowitz, SongBird can do a lot of i/o actually	Mar 03 16:18
DaemonFC	as can most apps that have to maintain a current database	Mar 03 16:19
DaemonFC	if I add 1,000 files, it can thrash the disk updating the database	Mar 03 16:19
DaemonFC	XFS minimizes this	Mar 03 16:19
DaemonFC	anything that's faster and more efficient has my vote	Mar 03 16:20
schestowitz	http://fsfe.org/news/2010/news-20100302-01.en.html	Mar 03 16:23
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Document Freedom Day 2010 - Free your documents, save your information! .::. Size~: 6.1 KB	Mar 03 16:23
schestowitz	DaemonFC: most of the time you just play an open file stream	Mar 03 16:24
schestowitz	You can preload the whole block and play it off RAM	Mar 03 16:24
DaemonFC	true, but the occasional thrashing is still annoying when it happens	Mar 03 16:24
schestowitz	But I never wrote proper multimedia applications (audio/video), so I don't know if it's done off RAM	Mar 03 16:25
schestowitz	Disk activity is high when you run something like du -sh a lot	Mar 03 16:25
schestowitz	http://www.computerworlduk.com/technology/operating-systems/windows/news/index.cfm?newsId=19109	Mar 03 16:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Microsoft warns Windows XP users, 'don't touch the F1 key' - Windows - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 85.53 KB	Mar 03 16:27
schestowitz	Quality	Mar 03 16:27
schestowitz	Buy your 'commercial' software today	Mar 03 16:28
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DaemonFC	jono, 7digital does have some hard to find and out of print stuff	Mar 03 16:38
DaemonFC	but I already have the import CD or the vinyl record :)	Mar 03 16:38
DaemonFC	most of the time	Mar 03 16:38
DaemonFC	those SA-CDs are real big in Japan	Mar 03 16:39
DaemonFC	they make a CD's specs look like an MP3	Mar 03 16:39
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 16:39
DaemonFC	they have a lot of DRM and crap, but you can just plug the 3.5mm jack into your sound card's audio in	Mar 03 16:40
DaemonFC	record from that	Mar 03 16:40
DaemonFC	the FLACs from those things are absolutely massive	Mar 03 16:40
DaemonFC	talking 60-ish megs per track or more	Mar 03 16:40
DaemonFC	twice the sample rate of a CD	Mar 03 16:41
DaemonFC	they're nice to have, I wish they sold them here	Mar 03 16:42
jono	DaemonFC, yeah, it has some great content :)	Mar 03 16:42
jono	I am planning on buying a load of stuff :)	Mar 03 16:42
DaemonFC	well, of course YOU would say that	Mar 03 16:42
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 16:42
DaemonFC	jono, Does Ubuntu One give you a recommended list based on your local library?	Mar 03 16:45
DaemonFC	Songbird does this	Mar 03 16:45
jono	DaemonFC, yeah, I would say that, I am clearly a sockpuppet, right?	Mar 03 16:46
*jono slaps DaemonFC :)		Mar 03 16:46
DaemonFC	oh, clearly	Mar 03 16:46
jono	not sure it does	Mar 03 16:46
DaemonFC	;)	Mar 03 16:46
jono	:)	Mar 03 16:46
DaemonFC	jono, It looks like in many cases they actually undercut Amazon and Lala and I was only looking at newer music where they can be more expensive	Mar 03 16:47
DaemonFC	if it's more than 4-5 years old, 7digital may have it at 77 cents a track	Mar 03 16:47
DaemonFC	where Amazon still has it for 99 cents a track	Mar 03 16:47
DaemonFC	and Lala is 89 cents	Mar 03 16:47
DaemonFC	this can obviously add up	Mar 03 16:47
jono	cool :)	Mar 03 16:49
DaemonFC	you buy 10 albums, the difference might be $15-$20	Mar 03 16:49
jono	absolutely	Mar 03 16:49
jono	7digital seem to do a wicked job	Mar 03 16:49
jono	we asked them to do ogg, but they couldnt, but other than that, they seem cool	Mar 03 16:49
DaemonFC	is that a problem on their end, like infrastructure?	Mar 03 16:50
DaemonFC	or are the labels not going to have it?	Mar 03 16:50
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vermilionnnn	flac is based on vorbis, and is lossless, so it would be easy enough for the end user to convert?	Mar 03 16:51
vermilionnnn	or even add in an option to convert to .ogg into the music store, which would convert once the download was finished?	Mar 03 16:51
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, FLAC is not based on Vorbis	Mar 03 16:51
DaemonFC	totally different codec	Mar 03 16:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Excited. :D		Mar 03 16:51
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, I think 7digital only has the MP3	Mar 03 16:52
DaemonFC	cause that's what the record labels gave them	Mar 03 16:52
DaemonFC	you can't turn an MP3 into a lossless file, and transcoding it to Ogg just does more damage	Mar 03 16:52
vermilionnnn	sorry, its being developed by xiph.org, my bad	Mar 03 16:52
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, If you want to buy the song, either accept that it's MP3 or don't buy it	Mar 03 16:53
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, It's not developed by them	Mar 03 16:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Win32 Compatibility in #GNU #Linux Improves Further http://ur1.ca/o8ww http://ur1.ca/o8wx		Mar 03 16:53
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DaemonFC	it wasn't even made by them	Mar 03 16:54
vermilionnnn	i know. I'm certain I heard somewhere that 7digital offered FLAC music. But it may just be me going crazy	Mar 03 16:54
DaemonFC	7digital appears to offer a mix of MP3, WMA, and AAC	Mar 03 16:54
vermilionnnn	DaemonFC: wikipedia says different? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Lossless_Audio_Codec	Mar 03 16:54
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Free Lossless Audio Codec - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 127.2 KB	Mar 03 16:54
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #Kernel Space Benchmarks of #Linux Firesystems http://ur1.ca/o8x2 http://ur1.ca/o8x3		Mar 03 16:54
phIRCe-BNc	Title: [Phoronix] Finally, Reiser4 Benchmarks Against EXT4 & Btrfs .::. Size~: 19.36 KB	Mar 03 16:54
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The kernel column \| Linux User .::. Size~: 29.79 KB	Mar 03 16:54
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, It's endorsed by Xiph and it fits the Ogg container	Mar 03 16:54
DaemonFC	so yes technically it's part of their project	Mar 03 16:55
DaemonFC	but they don't actually control development of it	Mar 03 16:55
vermilionnnn	DaemonFC: http://www.7digital.com/cms/radiohead/in-rainbows.aspx this album is offered in FLAC	Mar 03 16:56
DaemonFC	the only difference between FLAC and Ogg FLAC is that OGG adds about 200 K to each file and you can stream it	Mar 03 16:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: 7digital - Radiohead In Rainbows - In FLAC - In MP3 320k .::. Size~: 26.56 KB	Mar 03 16:56
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, That's different	Mar 03 16:56
DaemonFC	Radiohead released that themselves	Mar 03 16:56
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Foundation Teaches the Public About #GNU Linux, Linux 2.6.34 Shaping up http://ur1.ca/o8x7 http://ur1.ca/o8x8		Mar 03 16:56
DaemonFC	it was free for a while	Mar 03 16:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The Linux Foundation Launches Free Webinar Series With Big Names .::. Size~: 25.99 KB	Mar 03 16:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: [Phoronix] Major Linux 2.6.34 Kernel GPU DRM Updates .::. Size~: 16.87 KB	Mar 03 16:56
vermilionnnn	DaemonFC: http://www.7digital.com/artists/enya/and-winter-came-1/	Mar 03 16:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Enya - And Winter Came MP3 Downloads - 7digital .::. Size~: 113.12 KB	Mar 03 16:57
DaemonFC	hmmm	Mar 03 16:57
vermilionnnn	DaemonFC: http://www.7digital.com/artists/oasis/dig-out-your-soul/05-Im-Outta-Time/	Mar 03 16:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Oasis - Dig Out Your Soul - I'm Outta Time MP3 Downloads - 7digital .::. Size~: 111.61 KB	Mar 03 16:57
DaemonFC	ok, so maybe they have FLACs for some things?	Mar 03 16:57
*DaemonFC will have to investigate		Mar 03 16:57
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Gentoo #GNU #Linux Makes Systems Better Optimised for One's Hardware (Benchmarks) http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7715/1.html		Mar 03 16:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Gentoo Optimizations Benchmarked - Part 2 \| Linux Magazine .::. Size~: 40.53 KB	Mar 03 16:57
DaemonFC	holy shit	Mar 03 16:58
DaemonFC	$1.49 per track in FLAC!	Mar 03 16:58
vermilionnnn	wow :D	Mar 03 16:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] K Desktop Environment ( #KDE SC) Has New Release http://ur1.ca/o8xr http://ur1.ca/o5af		Mar 03 16:58
phIRCe-BNc	Title: KDE Software Compilation 4.4.1 Out Now \| KDE.news .::. Size~: 16.44 KB	Mar 03 16:58
phIRCe-BNc	Title: KDE - KDE Software Compilation 4.4.1 Release Announcement .::. Size~: 14.55 KB	Mar 03 16:58
DaemonFC	you add $4.29 to get In Rainbows in FLAC	Mar 03 16:59
DaemonFC	you can probably get the CD used for less	Mar 03 16:59
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 16:59
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Thoughts About #Zeitgeist in #GNOME Desktop 3 http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/03/zeitgeist-and-beyond/		Mar 03 16:59
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Thoughts about the current Zeitgeist situation (GNOME 3 and beyond) » Seilo @ Geeky Ogre .::. Size~: 47.18 KB	Mar 03 16:59
vermilionnnn	probably	Mar 03 17:00
DaemonFC	vermilionnnn, The CD, NEW, is 30 cents cheaper than the album in FLAC	Mar 03 17:00
DaemonFC	it's $5 cheaper than the FLAC album for a used CD	Mar 03 17:00
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] New #GNU #Linux Distribution Called a "Huge Success" http://ur1.ca/o8y8		Mar 03 17:00
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Live Hacking CD a Huge Success; Initial Download Figures for Ethical Hacking Linux Distribution Released .::. Size~: 18.71 KB	Mar 03 17:00
DaemonFC	what's 7digital saying for this?	Mar 03 17:00
DaemonFC	All that quality of the CD at only twice the price?	Mar 03 17:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux from Scratch 6.6 is Released http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Linux-from-Scratch-6-6-has-arrived-944410.html #lfs		Mar 03 17:01
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Linux from Scratch 6.6 has arrived - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 31.65 KB	Mar 03 17:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Fedora Gets #Zarafa http://download.zarafa.com/zarafa/newsletter/2010%20cebit/20100302%20newsletter%20cebit.html		Mar 03 17:02
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Zarafa Newsletter .::. Size~: 6.57 KB	Mar 03 17:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Feeling a lot more peppy after a cup of strong #Bialetti brew. Thanks for caring, droogs. #coffee #gratuitousKubrickReferences		Mar 03 17:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Debian Derivative #Knoppix 6.3 is Released http://ur1.ca/o8zq		Mar 03 17:10
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Calls for Artists http://www.ubuntu-user.com/Online/News/Call-for-Artist-Lucid-Lynx		Mar 03 17:10
phIRCe-BNc	Title: CeBIT 2010: Knoppix 6.3 CeBIT Edition released - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 34.01 KB	Mar 03 17:10
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Call for Artist: Lucid Lynx / News / Online / Home - Ubuntu User .::. Size~: 24.88 KB	Mar 03 17:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #GNU #Linux for Beginners, the #Ubuntu Way http://ur1.ca/o8zv http://ur1.ca/o8zw		Mar 03 17:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Ubuntu for Beginners \| The PC Report .::. Size~: 47.51 KB	Mar 03 17:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Good for the goose but not for the gander. .::. Size~: 76.62 KB	Mar 03 17:11
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux #Phones Forge Alliance, Spread Through #Palm and #Nokia http://ur1.ca/o904 http://ur1.ca/o905 http://ur1.ca/o908		Mar 03 17:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: LiMo Foundation Seeks Alliance With WAC -- Open Source -- InformationWeek .::. Size~: 102.85 KB	Mar 03 17:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: WebOS 1.4 adds video capture - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 63.7 KB	Mar 03 17:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Nokia to launch Linux-powered N900 tomorrow .::. Size~: 156.52 KB	Mar 03 17:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #LinuxMint Works Nicely for a Girlfriend http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2010/03/minting-girlfriend.html		Mar 03 17:13
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Thoughts on Technology: Minting the Girlfriend .::. Size~: 98.12 KB	Mar 03 17:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Android 2.1 (Linux+Hacks+GUI) Coming Soon http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/News/Android-21-and-Nexus-One-on-Verizon/?kc=rss		Mar 03 17:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Android 2.1 to be available everywhere? - News - Linux for Devices .::. Size~: 63.79 KB	Mar 03 17:14
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Tablets with #Linux Less Than Half the Price of Tablet from Patent Bully Apple http://ur1.ca/o90m		Mar 03 17:15
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Tech-no-media: Sub $200 Android tablets arrives: is the iPad doomed? .::. Size~: 99.01 KB	Mar 03 17:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Why So-called 'Clouds' (Fog Computing) Suck http://blog.linuxtoday.com/blog/2010/03/keep-your-cloud-1.html		Mar 03 17:16
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Keep Your Cloud, I'm a Customer Not a Consumer - Linux Today Blog .::. Size~: 74.39 KB	Mar 03 17:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #FormulaOne Teams Use #FreeSoftware http://linuxers.org/article/vlc-used-formula-one #vlc		Mar 03 17:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: VLC is used in Formula One \| Linuxers .::. Size~: 48.36 KB	Mar 03 17:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Linux Magazine on #CeBIT Open Source (Germany), Allison Recalls #Sun Days http://ur1.ca/o913 http://tuxdeluxe.org/node/303		Mar 03 17:18
phIRCe-BNc	Title: CeBIT Open Source Forum 2010 - Linux Magazine Online .::. Size~: 34.86 KB	Mar 03 17:18
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Watching the Sun Set \| Tux Deluxe .::. Size~: 30.96 KB	Mar 03 17:19
DaemonFC	http://us.7digital.com/artists/ea-games-soundtrack/command-and-conquer/	Mar 03 17:22
phIRCe-BNc	Title: EA Games Soundtrack - Command & Conquer MP3 music downloads - 7digital .::. Size~: 101.68 KB	Mar 03 17:22
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 17:22
DaemonFC	http://www.lala.com/#song/3531103600255832703	Mar 03 17:24
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Lala - Where music plays .::. Size~: 35.55 KB	Mar 03 17:24
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 17:24
schestowitz	Is 7digital a Windows shop?	Mar 03 17:24
DaemonFC	schestowitz, No	Mar 03 17:24
schestowitz	ASPX	Mar 03 17:24
schestowitz	WMA...	Mar 03 17:24
schestowitz	Ah, OK....	Mar 03 17:25
schestowitz	So it's just Bong that's a Windows feature in Ubuntu.	Mar 03 17:25
DaemonFC	more or less	Mar 03 17:25
DaemonFC	and I wouldn't call it a feature	Mar 03 17:25
schestowitz	Not in Kubuntu	Mar 03 17:25
schestowitz	As I understand it	Mar 03 17:25
schestowitz	IIRC, Firefox doesn't come with Kubuntu	Mar 03 17:25
DaemonFC	more like a cancer spreading to everything it touches	Mar 03 17:25
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 17:25
DaemonFC	schestowitz, No, Konqueror if you can count that	Mar 03 17:26
schestowitz	"SUSE is a Ballmer that spread to anything it touches" -cancer	Mar 03 17:26
DaemonFC	you can install Firefox easily though	Mar 03 17:26
DaemonFC	Ballmer is great entertainment	Mar 03 17:27
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[sagarun/@sagarun] #nowplaying "Do you know what it feels like loving some one ... " ~ Enrique Iglesias		Mar 03 17:27
schestowitz	Groklaw seems very worried about Novell todya	Mar 03 17:28
schestowitz	See how many items in News Picks re the takeover	Mar 03 17:28
schestowitz	DaemonFC: no, he ain't	Mar 03 17:28
schestowitz	Do you find Dick Tracy entertaining too? Oh, never mind...	Mar 03 17:28
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Like Novell could get worse?	Mar 03 17:30
DaemonFC	why do you care who buys them and why?	Mar 03 17:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Anti-FOSS Lobby Leads to Open Letter to United States Trade Representative http://ur1.ca/o92c http://ur1.ca/o92d		Mar 03 17:30
DaemonFC	I hope they do pull a Gordon Gekko on Novell	Mar 03 17:30
phIRCe-BNc	Title: An Open Letter to The United States Trade Representative - Linux Magazine Online .::. Size~: 36.53 KB	Mar 03 17:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Samba 3.5 is Released http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Samba-3-5-release-includes-experimental-SMB2-support-944241.html #smb		Mar 03 17:32
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Vermont Government Moves to #FreeSoftware Through Policy http://www.govtech.com/gt/articles/747966		Mar 03 17:32
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Samba 3.5 release includes experimental SMB2 support - The H Open Source: News and Features .::. Size~: 32.39 KB	Mar 03 17:32
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Vermont Adopts Open Source Software Policy .::. Size~: 51.43 KB	Mar 03 17:32
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #ACTA Fiasco Gets Criticised in the US, New Zealand http://ur1.ca/o5g1 http://ur1.ca/o92w		Mar 03 17:34
phIRCe-BNc	Title: New ACTA leak shows major resistance to US-style DRM rules .::. Size~: 31.55 KB	Mar 03 17:34
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Computerworld > Updated: New Zealand seeks to restrain ACTA .::. Size~: 33.16 KB	Mar 03 17:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Copyright Laws and #Patent Laws Hijacked by Suppressors http://www.huffingtonpost.com/james-love/us-trade-rep-serves-drug_b_483627.html		Mar 03 17:36
phIRCe-BNc	Title: James Love: US Trade Rep Serves Drug Companies, Publishers and Pushes Anti-Consumer Agenda .::. Size~: 101.67 KB	Mar 03 17:36
schestowitz	[17:30] <DaemonFC> why do you care who buys them and why?	Mar 03 17:37
schestowitz	Many reasons	Mar 03 17:37
schestowitz	Where to start....?	Mar 03 17:37
schestowitz	Can you help me out finding TV covergae?	Mar 03 17:38
DaemonFC	you're serious?	Mar 03 17:39
DaemonFC	you might get to call in to Mad Money	Mar 03 17:39
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 17:39
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Omar87	Hi all.	Mar 03 17:58
DaemonFC	How are the Jinn treating you today? :)	Mar 03 17:58
DaemonFC	hehe	Mar 03 17:58
Omar87	huh?	Mar 03 17:59
DaemonFC	hmmm	Mar 03 18:05
DaemonFC	new HD channels are here	Mar 03 18:05
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 18:05
DaemonFC	watching Animal Planet	Mar 03 18:12
DaemonFC	someone killed a dog and broke another dogs leg and left it to die	Mar 03 18:12
DaemonFC	they rescued that one	Mar 03 18:12
DaemonFC	they should find who did that, break their legs, and leave them in a field somewhere	Mar 03 18:13
DaemonFC	http://4chanarchive.org/images/173611818/1257783406710.gif	Mar 03 18:16
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 18:16
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Not a web page! Aborting image/gif type .::. Size~: 0 KB	Mar 03 18:16
DaemonFC	schestowitz, Did I ever mention that my cat likes beer?	Mar 03 18:29
DaemonFC	speaking of animals	Mar 03 18:29
schestowitz	No cat likes beer	Mar 03 18:42
schestowitz	No more than milk	Mar 03 18:42
DaemonFC	he eats doritos	Mar 03 18:42
MinceR	does he also drink coffee and eat lasagna?	Mar 03 18:43
DaemonFC	he eats about anything	Mar 03 18:44
DaemonFC	he weighs about 22 pounds	Mar 03 18:44
DaemonFC	last time I weighed him	Mar 03 18:44
MinceR	sounds a lot like garfield :>	Mar 03 18:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Dad is improving. Was pneumonia. Being brought out of induced coma. Will probably fly over next week, details to be arranged. exhale		Mar 03 18:55
DaemonFC	http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704486504575098083228068948.html?mod=WSJ-World-LEFTSecondNews	Mar 03 19:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Chile Temblor Tilts Earth Slightly - WSJ.com .::. Size~: 130.45 KB	Mar 03 19:14
DaemonFC	http://www.v3.co.uk/v3/news/2258895/microsoft-twitter-ballmer	Mar 03 19:18
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sebsebseb	Hi	Mar 03 19:31
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] I have a lovely glass of Leffe to celebrate.Seems appropriate what with the Ubuntu Developer Summit being in Belgium this time around.Happy!		Mar 03 19:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Refreshing the Ubuntu brand - http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/03/refreshing-the-ubuntu-brand/ #ubuntu		Mar 03 19:44
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Refreshing The Ubuntu Brand \| jonobacon@home .::. Size~: 29.34 KB	Mar 03 19:44
tessier	http://edu.net.vn/forums/t/66970.aspx	Mar 03 19:45
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Hiá»‡p há»™i BSA góp ý dá»± tháº£o Thông tÆ° pháº§n má»m mã nguá»“n má»Ÿ trong giáo dá»¥c - Edunet - Mang Giao duc - Bo Giao duc va Dao tao .::. Size~: 63.33 KB	Mar 03 19:45
tessier	schestowitz: Get a load of that. So evil...	Mar 03 19:45
tessier	It is in english.	Mar 03 19:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Why am I excited? http://bit.ly/9ospDY This is why. Ubuntu Brand Refresh!		Mar 03 19:45
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Refreshing The Ubuntu Brand \| jonobacon@home .::. Size~: 29.34 KB	Mar 03 19:45
tessier	It is reasonably well researched though. I am impressed that they know about "Reflections on Trusting Trust".	Mar 03 19:49
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] New Blog Post "Bye Bye Brown" http://bit.ly/c2fhhZ - loving the new themes and colours. Are you?		Mar 03 20:02
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bye Bye Brown \| popey.com blog .::. Size~: 30.02 KB	Mar 03 20:02
tessier	Since when do FOSS guys care about branding?	Mar 03 20:03
schestowitz	tessier: excellent find, thanks!	Mar 03 20:03
schestowitz	Novell sponsors the BSA	Mar 03 20:03
MinceR	how do you know novell sponsors the b$a?	Mar 03 20:05
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bruce89	rather low contrast it appears	Mar 03 20:06
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schestowitz	tessier: what do you think about THE Novell news?	Mar 03 20:07
schestowitz	MinceR: I'll do a post about it shortly	Mar 03 20:07
tessier	schestowitz: I don't know.	Mar 03 20:07
tessier	schestowitz: Has the offer been accepted?	Mar 03 20:07
schestowitz	Groklaw is worried about it	Mar 03 20:07
schestowitz	They could drop the SCO trial	Mar 03 20:07
schestowitz	Or do secret deals	Mar 03 20:07
schestowitz	See PJ's comments anyway	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	tessier: I think it's a matter of WHICH offer they will accept (if any more come up)	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	I'll do a huge post about it	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	Congo ties	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	"activist firm"	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	They are not good guys	Mar 03 20:08
schestowitz	And they could take over NOVL just to sell it	Mar 03 20:08
bruce89	well clearly the offer that's on the table now is not going to happen	Mar 03 20:09
sebsebseb	jono: what a disapointment the new theme, by the looks of the screen shots	Mar 03 20:11
sebsebseb	propritary software still wins for eye candy	Mar 03 20:11
sebsebseb	Windows	Mar 03 20:11
sebsebseb	Mac OS X	Mar 03 20:11
jono	sebsebseb, maybe try it when it is released before you judge	Mar 03 20:11
MinceR	i like the new theme	Mar 03 20:11
jono	its really nice	Mar 03 20:11
MinceR	too bad it ships with the novellized release	Mar 03 20:12
bruce89	is that the default background that I saw on that post	Mar 03 20:12
jono	sebsebseb, and don't like it, use another theme?	Mar 03 20:12
sebsebseb	also Mandriva has nice themes by default :)	Mar 03 20:12
MinceR	or micro$oftized, if you prefer	Mar 03 20:12
sebsebseb	jono: more like use another distro :D	Mar 03 20:12
DaemonFC	sebsebseb, They broke all themes not included by default (and even a couple that are)	Mar 03 20:12
jono	sebsebseb, feel free to ue Mandrive :)	Mar 03 20:12
bruce89	just don't whine	Mar 03 20:12
DaemonFC	the icons for the indicator applet are missing if you use most themes	Mar 03 20:12
sebsebseb	jono: I'll be installing alpha 2 in a vm soon, and getting the updates	Mar 03 20:12
DaemonFC	and I don't see the "Light" theme	Mar 03 20:13
sebsebseb	jono: could of had a nice Lucid Lynx background or something, 8.10 for example came with a rather nice background, 8.04 had quite a nice one as well really	Mar 03 20:13
bruce89	have	Mar 03 20:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @mparent77772 Friedman: US losing competitive edge http:// nyti.ms/9D882q // guess he holds Microsoft as a gold standard for 'competing'		Mar 03 20:14
Omar87	Hi all.	Mar 03 20:15
*Ziomatrix has quit (Quit: Colloquy for iPhone - http://colloquy.mobi)		Mar 03 20:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Does anyone actually take Friedman seriously? #rhetoricalquestion #nyt #corrupt #neocon		Mar 03 20:15
Omar87	jono, so basically, what does it take to convince the Ubuntu dev team to sterilize the distro from Mono junk?	Mar 03 20:16
jono	Omar87, had this conversation before	Mar 03 20:16
jono	no change	Mar 03 20:16
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @mparent77772 Indonesia Riots Over Bank Bailout http://bit.ly/ byzcaW // corrupt West: take note #fraud #theft		Mar 03 20:16
phIRCe-BNc	Title: bit.ly, a simple url shortener .::. Size~: 15.88 KB	Mar 03 20:16
Omar87	jono, what do you mean?	Mar 03 20:16
DaemonFC	could be a Ballmer by proxy bid	Mar 03 20:17
jono	Omar87, I mean we have talked this over multiple times	Mar 03 20:17
DaemonFC	same agenda when he made a bid for Yahoo	Mar 03 20:17
jono	no point discussing this again	Mar 03 20:17
DaemonFC	knew they wouldn't take it and the stock would tank	Mar 03 20:17
DaemonFC	Omar87, It's them that's going to be sued over it	Mar 03 20:17
Omar87	jono, so they are insisting to take the poison? But that's not democracy!	Mar 03 20:18
DaemonFC	they can be stupid if they want	Mar 03 20:18
Omar87	No offense, but really.	Mar 03 20:18
DaemonFC	Shipping Mono in binary form is no different than shipping LAME in binary form	Mar 03 20:18
DaemonFC	but they leave out LAME	Mar 03 20:18
DaemonFC	"You can't have MP3 out of box, but here's a note taking widget"	Mar 03 20:19
Omar87	If Ubuntu is claimed to be a "distro for human beings", then I believe it should take their opinion in everything.	Mar 03 20:19
sebsebseb	Omar87: How about a better question :D What would it take for Ubuntu to have a properly decant theme? Something like XP, Vista, Windows 7, or Mac OS X?	Mar 03 20:19
sebsebseb	or even Mandriva	Mar 03 20:19
DaemonFC	sebsebseb, XP?	Mar 03 20:19
DaemonFC	really?	Mar 03 20:19
sebsebseb	Mandriva comes with a pretty nice theme by default, and then it has a few other themes as well, that are rather nice :)	Mar 03 20:19
sebsebseb	that's great having a distro that comes with rather nice themes by default, Debian was alright when I vm'd it themewise	Mar 03 20:20
Omar87	DaemonFC, I agree. XP has a properly decent interface?	Mar 03 20:20
DaemonFC	uhhhm, no	Mar 03 20:20
DaemonFC	it looks like a toy	Mar 03 20:20
sebsebseb	loads of people getting themes for Ubuntu from 3rd party sites such as Gnome-Look there was what was meant to be a screensaver on there not that long ago, which turned out to be a malicious program	Mar 03 20:20
DaemonFC	for 3 year olds	Mar 03 20:20
sebsebseb	plus I think maybe there was actsaulyl also what was meant to be a theme on there, which turned out to be malicious program	Mar 03 20:21
DaemonFC	which was hilarious	Mar 03 20:21
Omar87	sebsebseb, themes are not as significant as the Mono issue.	Mar 03 20:21
DaemonFC	expect more of that, sebsebseb	Mar 03 20:21
sebsebseb	DaemonFC: what was hailarious?	Mar 03 20:21
sebsebseb	the malicious screensaver?	Mar 03 20:21
DaemonFC	As Ubuntu refuses to package things or redirects you to PPAs	Mar 03 20:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] Received a nice postcard from the Netherlands, Amsterdam. No seeds though... ;)		Mar 03 20:21
sebsebseb	DaemonFC: indeed	Mar 03 20:21
bruce89	beauty is the in eye of the beholder	Mar 03 20:21
DaemonFC	sebsebseb, Yeah. PPAs are begging for trojans	Mar 03 20:21
DaemonFC	It'll happen eventually	Mar 03 20:22
Omar87	jono, so there's not way to convince them to dump mono, at all?	Mar 03 20:22
MinceR	lol @ the notion of the default xp theme being "decent"	Mar 03 20:22
DaemonFC	PPAs are nothing more than trusting the owner not to fuck up your system	Mar 03 20:22
bruce89	for what it's worth, theme theme looks fine to me apart from it being a bit low contrast	Mar 03 20:22
MinceR	DaemonFC: all repos are like that :>	Mar 03 20:22
sebsebseb	MinceR: well the blue aereo is alright	Mar 03 20:23
DaemonFC	some PPAs are obviously trustworthy cause they're from the people that work on the distro itself	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	MinceR: however I would change it to the green one, or use a 3rd party theme	Mar 03 20:23
DaemonFC	most of them though, who knos?	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	sebsebseb: there's no aero in xp	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	uh	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	yeah	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	I meant	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	Luna or whatever it's called	Mar 03 20:23
bruce89	Luna	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	yes, it's called luna	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	and the silver one manages to look not like shit	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	Windows might not be that good as an OS, but for eye candy, oh it's good	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	but it's not the default	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	so it doesn't count :>	Mar 03 20:23
DaemonFC	You can patch out the uxtheme.dll and load unsigned themes	Mar 03 20:23
sebsebseb	compared to Ubuntu that is	Mar 03 20:23
MinceR	yeah, you can hack winblows xp to gain the privilege of installing themes	Mar 03 20:24
MinceR	it's so user-friendly	Mar 03 20:24
bruce89	says you	Mar 03 20:24
DaemonFC	StyleXP does the same thing only it patches the dll in memory every time the system loads	Mar 03 20:24
sebsebseb	Vista is even better for eye candy compared to Ubuntu, no I don't mean the black aero theme, I mean the backgrounds and other pictures that comes with the OS	Mar 03 20:24
DaemonFC	no modding OS files on the disk that way	Mar 03 20:24
bruce89	no theme will be to everyone's tastes	Mar 03 20:24
DaemonFC	but StyleXP is $20	Mar 03 20:24
sebsebseb	Windows 7 is better than Ubuntu themewise	Mar 03 20:24
sebsebseb	as far as I know	Mar 03 20:24
MinceR	just use kubuntu	Mar 03 20:24
sebsebseb	Mandriva comes with a rather nice blue theme on by default, and then other similar themes, in differnet colours with it as well, good stuff	Mar 03 20:25
MinceR	and use the plasma GUI to get some themes and backgrounds :>	Mar 03 20:25
*bruce89 sighs		Mar 03 20:25
DaemonFC	most of the limitations of the themes in Ubuntu are due to limitations in GNOME	Mar 03 20:25
sebsebseb	MinceR: I don't like KDE much as a DE	Mar 03 20:25
DaemonFC	;)	Mar 03 20:25
MinceR	sebsebseb: your loss	Mar 03 20:25
sebsebseb	Ubuntu is a joke for themes, but	Mar 03 20:25
MinceR	sebsebseb: also, i don't like winblows nor macos much as a DE :>	Mar 03 20:25
bruce89	DaemonFC: that's not strictly true	Mar 03 20:25
sebsebseb	I do need to try it more properly in a vm	Mar 03 20:25
sebsebseb	otherwise it's a little un fair, saying this new theme is a joke etc	Mar 03 20:25
Omar87	MinceR, Kubuntu is awesome. But it's to damn heavy on my laptop.	Mar 03 20:25
Omar87	too*	Mar 03 20:25
MinceR	strange, it isn't too heavy on my netbook	Mar 03 20:26
sebsebseb	see above jono some of us want to be fair when it comes to our negative comments :D	Mar 03 20:26
jono	:)	Mar 03 20:26
Omar87	MinceR, how many RAMs? 1GB here.	Mar 03 20:26
Aondo	bruce89 why not? i was thinking the same thing.	Mar 03 20:26
bruce89	Aondo: it's a myth	Mar 03 20:26
MinceR	Omar87: 2GB on the netbook	Mar 03 20:26
DaemonFC	One has to wonder when the proprietary ball of krap is coming to kubuntu	Mar 03 20:26
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 20:26
Omar87	MinceR, yep. That's why.	Mar 03 20:26
Omar87	DaemonFC, let's hope it never does.	Mar 03 20:27
DaemonFC	Omar87, Ubuntu really only seems intent on crapifying GNOME	Mar 03 20:27
DaemonFC	I think KDE is safe for now	Mar 03 20:27
DaemonFC	not enough Kubuntu users to piss with at the moment	Mar 03 20:27
bruce89	nah, KDE's done that themsevles	Mar 03 20:28
*bruce89 being sarcastic		Mar 03 20:28
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Does this mean all the merchandise in the Canonical store is a) Reduced to clear, b) Retro, c) Collectable, d) Other?		Mar 03 20:28
Omar87	DaemonFC, I've tried Lubuntu 10.04 alpha 3 recently.	Mar 03 20:29
DaemonFC	well, bruce89, I think Ubuntu refuses to package SongBird because it has 7digital in it and if you buy through that they don't get their click pennies	Mar 03 20:29
Omar87	Can you believe I couldn't find an update manager in there?	Mar 03 20:29
DaemonFC	it seems obvious they've planned their music store for a while	Mar 03 20:29
bruce89	DaemonFC: I was more under the impression it violates the GPL	Mar 03 20:30
DaemonFC	bruce89, no it doesn't	Mar 03 20:30
sebsebseb	jono: uh I typed that I would install alpha 2 into a vm, I meant alpha 3. Last time I tried to do that I was pressing back and forward and such and the installer ended up crashing basicalley. So if I install all in one go, put info in, and press forward, I guess it will install alright.	Mar 03 20:30
bruce89	DaemonFC: fair enough	Mar 03 20:30
DaemonFC	VLC is GPL 2 and the Mozilla stuff is tri-license	Mar 03 20:31
bruce89	https://bugs.launchpad.net/debian/+bug/94494	Mar 03 20:31
DaemonFC	so you could build them together with no license conflicts	Mar 03 20:31
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bug #94494 in Debian: “[needs-packaging] Songbird” .::. Size~: 109.39 KB	Mar 03 20:31
bruce89	seems to be mozilla people not caring about people wanting to use xulrunner	Mar 03 20:32
DaemonFC	sounds like Mozilla is being dickheads and bouncing back patches	Mar 03 20:33
DaemonFC	typical	Mar 03 20:33
bruce89	another reason to port gnome-shell to seed	Mar 03 20:33
DaemonFC	"BTW, there's a "SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT" popup on startup. The recent Firefox EULA issue makes me think this not be well received.."	Mar 03 20:33
MinceR	seed?	Mar 03 20:33
DaemonFC	Nothing evil in the SongBird EULA	Mar 03 20:33
*MinceR prefers to do without EULAs		Mar 03 20:34
bruce89	MinceR: instead gsj	Mar 03 20:34
MinceR	EULAs are for proprietary software :>	Mar 03 20:34
bruce89	gjs	Mar 03 20:34
DaemonFC	the Songbird EULA is no worse than what you agree with to use Firefox	Mar 03 20:34
MinceR	bruce89: doesn't ring a bell	Mar 03 20:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu #GNU #Linux Users Reject F-Spot ( #Mono ) http://boycottnovell.com/2010/03/03/fspot-poll/ #novell #microsoft #trojan		Mar 03 20:34
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Ubuntu GNU/Linux Users Reject F-Spot (Mono) \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 78.75 KB	Mar 03 20:34
bruce89	uses JavaScriptCore instead of SpiderMonkey	Mar 03 20:34
DaemonFC	or probably your distribution in total	Mar 03 20:34
MinceR	bruce89: ic	Mar 03 20:35
bruce89	seems strange for GNOME to cut its ties with Mozilla, and then to have their JS engine required for the whole shell thing	Mar 03 20:36
DaemonFC	MinceR, The gist of it is that Songbird is GPLv2 with a linking exception, you agree not to call derivative works Songbird or use their artwork in it, you understand that extensions might be proprietary, the usual export control crap, and so on	Mar 03 20:36
MinceR	ic	Mar 03 20:36
DaemonFC	so not any worse than Firefox	Mar 03 20:36
MinceR	how is the linking exception different from LGPL?	Mar 03 20:36
bruce89	probably prohibits its entry into Debian	Mar 03 20:37
DaemonFC	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPL_linking_exception	Mar 03 20:37
phIRCe-BNc	Title: GPL linking exception - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 36.63 KB	Mar 03 20:37
MinceR	bruce89: lol	Mar 03 20:37
DaemonFC	"Compared to the GNU Classpath license above, the LGPL formulates more requirements to the linking exception in order to guarantee the customers of the final product more freedom. Specifically, it must be possible and legal to link the program against a newer version of the LGPL-library, and to do private modifications, reverse-engineering and debugging."	Mar 03 20:37
DaemonFC	so basically the GPL + linking exception is less copyleft than the LGPL	Mar 03 20:38
DaemonFC	it's still more copyleft than the Mozilla MPL though	Mar 03 20:38
MinceR	that applies to [L]GPLv3 though, afaiu	Mar 03 20:38
MinceR	or not	Mar 03 20:38
bruce89	xulrunner seems a bit silly considering they don't care about other than their own stuff	Mar 03 20:39
sebsebseb	jono: apparantly if I install alpha 3 into vm at the moment, and get the updates, I won't get the theme	Mar 03 20:39
DaemonFC	MinceR, bottom line is that Songbird doesn't violate anyones licenses, it would have to go into Universe though because it supports patented codec playback	Mar 03 20:40
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 20:40
jono	sebsebseb, they are not released yet	Mar 03 20:40
DaemonFC	but if Ubuntu wanted to package it, they easily could	Mar 03 20:40
sebsebseb	jono: how come you got to see it then?	Mar 03 20:40
sebsebseb	jono: daily build?	Mar 03 20:40
DaemonFC	no worse than anything else they have in there	Mar 03 20:40
jono	sebsebseb, because I know the guy who is working on them	Mar 03 20:41
DaemonFC	MinceR, The advantage to using VLC as a backend is that it can play any audio file format VLC can, which is a hell of a lot	Mar 03 20:41
DaemonFC	even more than Gstreamer (though by that point they're obscure)	Mar 03 20:42
DaemonFC	VLC is also more fault tolerant of errors in a stream	Mar 03 20:42
DaemonFC	Gstreamer sometimes panics and bails	Mar 03 20:42
MinceR	ic	Mar 03 20:43
DaemonFC	better to have a "blip" somewhere in the file than the thing refusing to play it at all	Mar 03 20:43
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 20:43
DaemonFC	VLC has always been a good playback engine, but its interface makes it suck as a music player	Mar 03 20:44
DaemonFC	Songbird basically provides a pretty interface, an HTML engine, and Firefox's extension system on top of VLC's playback engine	Mar 03 20:44
DaemonFC	it's delicious B-)	Mar 03 20:45
DaemonFC	you can even use it as a web browser if you want, complete with Adblock Plus	Mar 03 20:45
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 20:45
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] My favorite is #7,657,849, filed less than a month ago, covering unlocking a device by performing a gesture: http://i5.be/ayD		Mar 03 20:45
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The CIO Weblog: An embarrassment of patents .::. Size~: 123.63 KB	Mar 03 20:45
DaemonFC	not really ideal for that, but it's not a bad browser	Mar 03 20:46
DaemonFC	for some reason it only misses one web browser feature, and that's bookmarks	Mar 03 20:47
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 20:47
MinceR	can it shuffle the playlist?	Mar 03 20:47
bruce89	does VLC reimplement all the codecs?	Mar 03 20:47
bruce89	or does it make use of ffmpeg	Mar 03 20:47
MinceR	does it have OSD functionality?	Mar 03 20:47
DaemonFC	MinceR, Yeah, you can have it randomize	Mar 03 20:47
DaemonFC	ir just play through highest rated	Mar 03 20:47
MinceR	and can it play modules? :)	Mar 03 20:47
MinceR	i don't mean playing the playlist in random order, rather shuffling its order and then playing it in order :>	Mar 03 20:48
DaemonFC	pretty sure you can	Mar 03 20:48
DaemonFC	it has some weird and powerful playlist building options	Mar 03 20:49
DaemonFC	scared me away from most of its features honestly	Mar 03 20:49
schestowitz	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmvw7N-Nn1U&feature=grec	Mar 03 20:49
phIRCe-BNc	Title: YouTube- US Schools Trail World In Child Soldier Aptitude .::. Size~: 143.16 KB	Mar 03 20:49
bruce89	sebsebseb: metacity buttons on the wrong side	Mar 03 20:49
DaemonFC	bruce89, AFAIK VLC implemented all their codecs from scratch	Mar 03 20:50
bruce89	hmm	Mar 03 20:50
DaemonFC	well, decoding anyway	Mar 03 20:50
bruce89	it'll be interesting to see if gstreamer-0.11 helps	Mar 03 20:51
DaemonFC	it uses LAME and FAAC and stuff internally	Mar 03 20:51
DaemonFC	as encoders	Mar 03 20:51
bruce89	I see	Mar 03 20:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Defining the limits of patentable subject-matter in "new" areas (life, software, business methods) is a source of unease: http://i5.be/ayE		Mar 03 20:55
phIRCe-BNc	Title: The Political Legacy Of Ms Alison Brimelow - BLOG@IPJUR.COM .::. Size~: 49.94 KB	Mar 03 20:55
DaemonFC	http://us.7digital.com/songbird/album/carlos-moerdijk-emmy-verhey/beethoven-the-complete-violin-sonatas	Mar 03 20:56
DaemonFC	that's not a bad deal	Mar 03 20:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Error processing the URL: .::. Size~: 0 KB	Mar 03 20:57
*oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 20:57
DaemonFC	23 cents per MP3 :)	Mar 03 20:57
DaemonFC	see, the price does go down after a few hundred years	Mar 03 20:57
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 20:57
DaemonFC	copyright law ftw	Mar 03 20:57
DaemonFC	the music is in the public domain, but the performance itself is not	Mar 03 20:58
schestowitz	/which/ copyright law?	Mar 03 21:09
*bruce89 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)		Mar 03 21:10
DaemonFC	http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?131504-Bush-boo-d-while-throwing-first-pitch	Mar 03 21:11
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bush boo'd while throwing first pitch. .::. Size~: 57.32 KB	Mar 03 21:11
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 21:11
DaemonFC	http://www.videosift.com/video/Bush-Booed-At-Inauguration	Mar 03 21:14
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bush Booed At Obama's Inauguration • VideoSift: Online Video *Quality Control .::. Size~: 66.75 KB	Mar 03 21:14
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DaemonFC	http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dcnow/2010/03/ronald-reagan-ulysses-s-grant-50-dollar-bill.html	Mar 03 21:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Congressman wants Ronald Reagan to replace Ulysses S. Grant on the $50 bill \| D.C. Now \| Los Angeles Times .::. Size~: 84.85 KB	Mar 03 21:17
*DaemonFC pukes		Mar 03 21:17
Diablo-D3	well	Mar 03 21:18
DaemonFC	"McHenry did not mention Reaganomics, the theory of trickle-down spending whose viability seems to be in dispute at the moment. The congressman's case: Polls of presidential scholars consistently show Reagan outranking Grant, including a Wall Street Journal survey in 2005 that ranked Reagan sixth and Grant 29th."	Mar 03 21:18
DaemonFC	Oh that explains EVERYTHING	Mar 03 21:18
DaemonFC	sigh	Mar 03 21:18
Diablo-D3	lets see something	Mar 03 21:18
*Diablo-D3 OPENS THE WIKIPEDIAS		Mar 03 21:18
DaemonFC	the Wall Street Journal loves Reagan, wonder why	Mar 03 21:19
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, They should put Reagan on the quarter	Mar 03 21:20
DaemonFC	know why?	Mar 03 21:20
DaemonFC	two-bit piece of a two-bit con artist	Mar 03 21:20
DaemonFC	B-)	Mar 03 21:20
*jono has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)		Mar 03 21:21
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: okay so	Mar 03 21:21
Diablo-D3	washington is on the dollar	Mar 03 21:21
Diablo-D3	what is adams on?	Mar 03 21:21
DaemonFC	yeah I know, and Washington wasn't a bad guy	Mar 03 21:22
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 21:22
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: we're doing an experiement	Mar 03 21:22
Diablo-D3	what is adams on?	Mar 03 21:22
Diablo-D3	ding! times up	Mar 03 21:22
DaemonFC	well	Mar 03 21:22
DaemonFC	$2 bill	Mar 03 21:22
Diablo-D3	afiak, nothing thats a bill still in circulation	Mar 03 21:22
Diablo-D3	er, hes on $2?	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	on the back	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	yes	Mar 03 21:23
*gargoyle-grin has quit (Quit: Leaving.)		Mar 03 21:23
Diablo-D3	doesnt count	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	sure it does	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	he's on the bill	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	I win	Mar 03 21:23
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 21:23
Diablo-D3	Im talking people on the front damnit	Mar 03 21:24
Diablo-D3	because, lets just sort out the most popular presidents here	Mar 03 21:25
DaemonFC	he's on the $1 bill too	Mar 03 21:25
DaemonFC	on the back	Mar 03 21:25
DaemonFC	2007 series	Mar 03 21:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] I am not sure "JavaScript" is a dumber name than "NetBeans".		Mar 03 21:25
MinceR	:D	Mar 03 21:25
DaemonFC	and on the 2nd of four $1 coins minted that year	Mar 03 21:26
DaemonFC	on the front	Mar 03 21:26
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 21:26
Diablo-D3	lincoln, washington, and franklin d roosevelt are generally the three most popular presidents	Mar 03 21:26
DaemonFC	you just asked is he on anything	Mar 03 21:26
DaemonFC	answer is yes	Mar 03 21:26
Diablo-D3	two of them are on a bill	Mar 03 21:27
Diablo-D3	roosevelt isnt	Mar 03 21:27
DaemonFC	did not specify whether they still made them	Mar 03 21:27
Diablo-D3	neither is kennedy	Mar 03 21:27
DaemonFC	well, there's better candidates than Reagan	Mar 03 21:27
DaemonFC	that's all I'm saying	Mar 03 21:27
*bruce89 (~bruce89@78.33.73.43) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 21:27
bruce89	http://www.osnews.com/story/22955/Canonical_Unveils_New_Ubuntu_Design_Themes_Logos	Mar 03 21:27
Diablo-D3	yes, both kennedy and roosevelt	Mar 03 21:27
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Canonical Unveils New Ubuntu Design, Themes, Logos .::. Size~: 25.84 KB	Mar 03 21:27
sebsebseb	bruce89: uhmm	Mar 03 21:28
Diablo-D3	eisenhower isnt on a bill, he was popular	Mar 03 21:28
bruce89	sebsebseb: what?	Mar 03 21:28
sebsebseb	bruce89: before you joined here jono gave this link http://www.jonobacon.org/2010/03/03/refreshing-the-ubuntu-brand/	Mar 03 21:29
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Refreshing The Ubuntu Brand \| jonobacon@home .::. Size~: 93.52 KB	Mar 03 21:29
Diablo-D3	jefferson and jackson are popular, and on bills	Mar 03 21:29
Diablo-D3	truman is popular, hes not on one	Mar 03 21:29
Diablo-D3	clinton is popular, but hes not dead yet	Mar 03 21:29
MinceR	oh, i didn't notice the titlebar fuckup	Mar 03 21:29
MinceR	mac asay is making his presence felt	Mar 03 21:29
bruce89	that background seemed awfy macy	Mar 03 21:30
bruce89	mac-y that should be	Mar 03 21:30
MinceR	i don't mind the background	Mar 03 21:30
MinceR	the beige theme is ugly	Mar 03 21:31
MinceR	the gray looks cool except for the titlebars	Mar 03 21:31
MinceR	s/ay/ay one/	Mar 03 21:31
bruce89	that translucent tooltip thing's from Fedora incidentally	Mar 03 21:31
vermilionnnn	who would move the minimise, maximise and close to the left hand side? :S	Mar 03 21:32
Diablo-D3	http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/03/coby-85-smartbook-feels-like-a-hundred-bucks-hands-on/	Mar 03 21:32
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Coby $85 smartbook feels like a hundred bucks (hands-on) -- Engadget .::. Size~: 203.05 KB	Mar 03 21:32
Diablo-D3	OH HAI	Mar 03 21:32
*jono (~jono@ubuntu/member/jono) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 03 21:32
DaemonFC	jono, Where is the Light theme at?	Mar 03 21:32
jono	DaemonFC, not uploaded to the distro yet	Mar 03 21:33
DaemonFC	ETA?	Mar 03 21:33
sebsebseb	DaemonFC: tommorow I think	Mar 03 21:34
sebsebseb	tommorow is also the user interface freeze	Mar 03 21:34
DaemonFC	I'd also like them to fix Gnote at some point	Mar 03 21:34
DaemonFC	they also killed Gwibber at some point	Mar 03 21:34
bruce89	I'm trying to find a sane colour theme for gnome-shell	Mar 03 21:35
sebsebseb	bruce89: well the bruce89 colour woudn't be one	Mar 03 21:36
DaemonFC	GNOME Shell is ill tempered right now	Mar 03 21:36
DaemonFC	it causes the kernel to panic	Mar 03 21:36
MinceR	222426 < vermilionnnn> who would move the minimise, maximise and close to the left hand side? :S	Mar 03 21:36
bruce89	must you be ceaselessly be annoying?	Mar 03 21:36
MinceR	crApple cultists	Mar 03 21:36
MinceR	and mac asay happens to be one	Mar 03 21:36
bruce89	DaemonFC: not here it doesn't anyway	Mar 03 21:36
MinceR	even though he's paid to not be one	Mar 03 21:36
sebsebseb	bruce89: you annoy me at times as well, and you probably know it :D	Mar 03 21:37
DaemonFC	I have about 10-20 minutes in GNOME Shell before a "critical kernel error" and not long after that a hard freeze	Mar 03 21:37
DaemonFC	so I'll stay out of it for now	Mar 03 21:37
MinceR	if gnome shell causes the kernel to panic then not only gnome shell is buggy, so is the kernel	Mar 03 21:37
DaemonFC	MinceR, It's Canonical, when everything does just work I'll let you know :)	Mar 03 21:38
DaemonFC	they try to hack shit together and then it starts bombing out for no reason and pissing the user off	Mar 03 21:38
DaemonFC	it's FrankenLinux is what their kernel turns out to be	Mar 03 21:38
DaemonFC	and backporting the drm system as kernel modules for 2.6.32 is the dumbest thing I think I've seen to date	Mar 03 21:39
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Novell Should Stop Sponsoring the #BSA , Which Lobbies Against #FreeSoftware in #Vietnam http://ur1.ca/oa12		Mar 03 21:40
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Novell Should Stop Sponsoring the BSA, Which Lobbies Against Free Software in Vietnam \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 82.22 KB	Mar 03 21:40
*bruce89 has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)		Mar 03 21:41
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] #Google Wants U.S. to Weigh WTO Challenge to #China Censorship http://ur1.ca/oa15		Mar 03 21:42
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Google Wants U.S. to Weigh WTO Challenge to China Censorship - BusinessWeek .::. Size~: 50.44 KB	Mar 03 21:42
DaemonFC	schestowitz, The F-Spot poll, rofl	Mar 03 21:54
DaemonFC	gthumb has all the capabilities of F-Spot	Mar 03 21:54
DaemonFC	with no Mono dependency	Mar 03 21:54
*Omar87 has quit (Quit: Leaving)		Mar 03 21:54
DaemonFC	anyway, the problem with asking people what they want is that they'll tell you	Mar 03 21:55
-BNi/#boycottnovell-[diablod3/@diablod3] Gentleman in tuberculosis quarantine amuses self by making rap videos http://ur1.ca/oa2t #awesome		Mar 03 21:57
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Gentleman in tuberculosis quarantine amuses self by making rap videos - Boing Boing .::. Size~: 34.48 KB	Mar 03 21:57
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] Anona: excelente quando madura, uma MERDA quando verde... :\|		Mar 03 21:59
DaemonFC	something like Tunechecker.com would be nice if it supported telling you the price in USD	Mar 03 22:02
DaemonFC	always get the album from the cheapest store	Mar 03 22:03
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "US is confident suicide bomb attacks in the lead up to #Iraq election will not derail the vote" // right, need a Supreme Court for that		Mar 03 22:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @BibleAlsoSays RT @mzemily209 I believe in GOD /who cares? that, my friends, is why we learned to separate church & state, millennia ago		Mar 03 22:11
DaemonFC	http://www.amazon.com/Plastic-Beach-Gorillaz/dp/B0035G9ABQ	Mar 03 22:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Amazon.com: Plastic Beach: Gorillaz: Music .::. Size~: 345.95 KB	Mar 03 22:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Ron Hovsepian Receives Another Large Lump of Cash as #Novell Sale Looms http://ur1.ca/oa5j #microsoft #finance #ripoff		Mar 03 22:12
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Ron Hovsepian Receives Another Large Lump of Cash as Novell Sale Looms \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 107.51 KB	Mar 03 22:12
DaemonFC	"This title will be released on March 9, 2010."	Mar 03 22:12
*DaemonFC has it		Mar 03 22:13
*DaemonFC kicks back		Mar 03 22:13
DaemonFC	http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2010/03/bruce-willis-takes-a-gun-to-the-gorillaz-in-stylo-clip.html	Mar 03 22:17
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Bruce Willis takes a gun to the Gorillaz in 'Stylo' clip \| Pop & Hiss \| Los Angeles Times .::. Size~: 125.94 KB	Mar 03 22:17
DaemonFC	heh	Mar 03 22:17
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] I really can't take credit for the new Ubuntu logo.. despite what some bloggers may say http://bit.ly/bz6aIb		Mar 03 22:25
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Lucid = Light = Less Relevent? « U8UNTU LXER .::. Size~: 20.5 KB	Mar 03 22:25
DaemonFC	"Coke lite" = Diet Coke, right?	Mar 03 22:28
MinceR	yes	Mar 03 22:28
DaemonFC	they've released so many weird shitty things that I wasn't sure	Mar 03 22:29
DaemonFC	MinceR, They even tried Coke C2 back in 2004 which was like half diet and half regular	Mar 03 22:29
DaemonFC	it tasted vile	Mar 03 22:29
DaemonFC	was gone by September	Mar 03 22:29
DaemonFC	they introduced it in late July	Mar 03 22:29
DaemonFC	it had high fructose corn syrup, aspartame, acesulfame potassium all at once	Mar 03 22:30
DaemonFC	so it tasted way worse than the worst diet pop out there and it still had calories and wasn't safe for diabetics	Mar 03 22:31
DaemonFC	I have no idea what kind of diseased management it takes to approve something like that	Mar 03 22:31
DaemonFC	makes you wonder if any of the suits actually drank some	Mar 03 22:32
DaemonFC	I remember I worked at Walmart at the tiem and the Coke rep left a bunch of it for the employees to try	Mar 03 22:33
DaemonFC	so I took a sip and spit it out in the breakroom sink	Mar 03 22:33
DaemonFC	and poured the rest of the can out while singing "Choke-A Cola stinky drink, pour it down the kitchen sink....smells like vinegar and tastes like ink...."	Mar 03 22:34
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 22:34
DaemonFC	Pepsi experiments way more than Coke does and still has yet to release something I hate	Mar 03 22:35
MinceR	i think the idea is that if you use lower concentrations of sweeteners, the tinge is weaker	Mar 03 22:36
MinceR	also, they're probably less harmful in lower doses	Mar 03 22:37
DaemonFC	MinceR, I drink diet pepsi, diet mt dew, and diet dr pepper probably in that order	Mar 03 22:37
MinceR	for example i think it was claimed that the constituents of aspartame occur naturally in food we eat	Mar 03 22:37
MinceR	but probably in much lower doses	Mar 03 22:37
DaemonFC	I try to avoid Coke unless it's all there is	Mar 03 22:37
MinceR	i prefer pepsi to coke anyway, always have	Mar 03 22:37
MinceR	even though i rarely drink such drinks nowadays	Mar 03 22:37
Diablo-D3	[05:23:18] <DaemonFC> it had high fructose corn syrup, aspartame, acesulfame potassium all at once	Mar 03 22:37
Diablo-D3	ugh	Mar 03 22:37
Diablo-D3	see the problem is	Mar 03 22:37
Diablo-D3	you cant combine artifical and real	Mar 03 22:38
DaemonFC	that it's disgusting?	Mar 03 22:38
DaemonFC	lol	Mar 03 22:38
DaemonFC	yeah, I noticed	Mar 03 22:38
Diablo-D3	no matter what it is	Mar 03 22:38
Diablo-D3	take real fruit and "sugar" it with, say, splenda	Mar 03 22:38
Diablo-D3	it wont work	Mar 03 22:38
Diablo-D3	but splenda by itself is fine	Mar 03 22:38
DaemonFC	Splenda in pop works just fine	Mar 03 22:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Episode 2 of Season 3 of our little podcast is out! http://podcast.ubuntu-uk.org/2010/03/03/s03e02-their-purple-moment/		Mar 03 22:38
phIRCe-BNc	Title: S03E02 Their Purple Moment \| Ubuntu Podcast from the UK LoCo team .::. Size~: 21.41 KB	Mar 03 22:38
DaemonFC	in fact, it tastes just like regular	Mar 03 22:38
Diablo-D3	yeah, splenda + a smigin of ace k	Mar 03 22:39
Diablo-D3	its fine	Mar 03 22:39
MinceR	entirely artificial food is very rare	Mar 03 22:39
MinceR	usually you do combine them	Mar 03 22:39
MinceR	for example, artificial sweetener with artificial and natural aromas :>	Mar 03 22:39
DaemonFC	MinceR, salt-based preservatives are killing hundreds of thousands every year	Mar 03 22:39
DaemonFC	due to high blood pressure it causes	Mar 03 22:39
DaemonFC	and atherosclerosis	Mar 03 22:39
Diablo-D3	MinceR: we're talking just sweeteners here	Mar 03 22:39
DaemonFC	they pump the food full of it cause it's cheap	Mar 03 22:39
Diablo-D3	it just doesnt work together	Mar 03 22:39
MinceR	people shouldn't eat so damn much of them, then	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: well, the real problem is the law	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	you HAVE to have so much preservatives	Mar 03 22:40
DaemonFC	MinceR, can't really avoid it	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	its nuts	Mar 03 22:40
DaemonFC	it's in EVERYTHING	Mar 03 22:40
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	like, stouffers	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	they make the best frozen food out	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	they invented an incredibly high end flash freezing process	Mar 03 22:40
DaemonFC	oh yeah, frozen dinners are the worst for salt content	Mar 03 22:40
DaemonFC	absolutely	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	but guess what	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	they put salt in	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	salt in a no artifical ingredients food, btw	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	its completely natural	Mar 03 22:40
Diablo-D3	and it tastes rather damned good too	Mar 03 22:41
DaemonFC	right, but natural amounts are usually safe	Mar 03 22:41
Diablo-D3	the only reason theres salt in it at all is because of THE LAW	Mar 03 22:41
DaemonFC	the government keeps wanting to regulate salt, so why don't they set caps already?	Mar 03 22:41
Diablo-D3	DaemonFC: regulate means to "make regular"	Mar 03 22:41
Diablo-D3	regulating salt is the last thing we need	Mar 03 22:42
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, They could like, have a salt cap and trade where they pay someone in India to not put that much salt in their food, they pay the government extra tax money to oversee the program, and they leave our salt content where it is now	Mar 03 22:42
DaemonFC	that'll work, right? B-)	Mar 03 22:42
DaemonFC	I mean, it stops global warming :D	Mar 03 22:43
MinceR	:D	Mar 03 22:43
*Diablo-D3 facepalms		Mar 03 22:43
MinceR	actually putting salt in the food isn't a global effect	Mar 03 22:43
MinceR	it doesn't spread through the atmosphere :>	Mar 03 22:43
DaemonFC	MinceR, I was attempting humor	Mar 03 22:43
DaemonFC	:P	Mar 03 22:43
MinceR	i know	Mar 03 22:43
MinceR	and i reacted to the humor first	Mar 03 22:44
DaemonFC	salt and trade laws save American lives	Mar 03 22:44
DaemonFC	pay your taxes!	Mar 03 22:44
DaemonFC	:)	Mar 03 22:44
Diablo-D3	dude	Mar 03 22:45
Diablo-D3	if the government worked	Mar 03 22:45
Diablo-D3	I'd pay half my wages on taxes	Mar 03 22:45
Diablo-D3	seriously. I would.	Mar 03 22:45
oiaohm	salt is not just salt.	Mar 03 22:45
Diablo-D3	argh! oiaohm! shut up!	Mar 03 22:45
MinceR	the government doesn't work and i pay more than half my wages on taxes.	Mar 03 22:45
Diablo-D3	MinceR: you're doing it wrong	Mar 03 22:46
oiaohm	Particular types of salt don't react well with about 60 percent of the populations blood presure.	Mar 03 22:46
MinceR	so i'd like your deal too, Diablo-D3	Mar 03 22:46
oiaohm	Just happens to be the most common salt.	Mar 03 22:46
Diablo-D3	nacl	Mar 03 22:46
oiaohm	Yep nacl	Mar 03 22:46
Diablo-D3	ye olde common table salt	Mar 03 22:46
oiaohm	Pure is the problem.	Mar 03 22:47
DaemonFC	MinceR, ?	Mar 03 22:47
DaemonFC	over half?	Mar 03 22:47
Diablo-D3	hes doing it wrong, seriously	Mar 03 22:47
DaemonFC	damn	Mar 03 22:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: more than half of the money it costs to support a worker goes into taxes and tax-like stuff here	Mar 03 22:47
DaemonFC	yeah, I'll say	Mar 03 22:47
oiaohm	Add in some of the salts that make up natual sea salt and lot of nacl effect disappears. DaemonFC	Mar 03 22:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: and then there's VAT	Mar 03 22:47
oiaohm	Opps Diablo-D3	Mar 03 22:47
MinceR	DaemonFC: and most of this money is stolen	Mar 03 22:47
MinceR	some of it is sent to m$	Mar 03 22:47
DaemonFC	MinceR, That's worthy of a revolt	Mar 03 22:47
Diablo-D3	STOLEN MONIES	Mar 03 22:48
DaemonFC	had you considered that?	Mar 03 22:48
MinceR	some of it is sent to other cults	Mar 03 22:48
oiaohm	Basically we got too good at making it pure. DaemonFC	Mar 03 22:48
oiaohm	Bugger	Mar 03 22:48
Diablo-D3	QUICKLY, TO THE TEA CAVE, REVOLUTIONARY MAN	Mar 03 22:48
MinceR	DaemonFC: the 10 million idiots living in this country accept it and think it's A-OK	Mar 03 22:48
DaemonFC	Diablo-D3, Over half my income in taxes? DAMN STRAIGHT!	Mar 03 22:48
DaemonFC	to the fucking Teamobile!	Mar 03 22:48
Diablo-D3	NO TAXATION... OR REPRESENTATION EITHER	Mar 03 22:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple Chastised Even by Its Own Advocates for Suing #Linux Using #SoftwarePatents http://ur1.ca/oaah #swpat		Mar 03 22:48
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Apple Chastised Even by Its Own Advocates for Suing Linux Using Software Patents \| Boycott Novell .::. Size~: 90.29 KB	Mar 03 22:48
MinceR	i can't change it alone with my current assets	Mar 03 22:48
Diablo-D3	seriously, if thats representation point at Congress I dont want that	Mar 03 22:49
schestowitz	Watch Jobs' sideburns :-)	Mar 03 22:49
DaemonFC	MinceR, Try telling them that the average American pays about 15-20% all told	Mar 03 22:49
DaemonFC	see if the idea catches that they're being fucked over	Mar 03 22:49
MinceR	wow, that money going from canonical to asay is doing something after all :>	Mar 03 22:49
schestowitz	Heh.	Mar 03 22:50
MinceR	DaemonFC: we do have mandatory healthcare though	Mar 03 22:50
DaemonFC	MinceR, They bought themselves a columnist?	Mar 03 22:50
schestowitz	It makes him think, MinceR	Mar 03 22:50
MinceR	DaemonFC: indeed	Mar 03 22:50
MinceR	schestowitz: no, it makes him advertise another company some of the time	Mar 03 22:50
DaemonFC	MinceR, Well, that's a little better then provided your healthcare is OK	Mar 03 22:50
DaemonFC	that costs a fucking fortune here	Mar 03 22:50
DaemonFC	a bad plan will run you $300-$400 a month if you're not in a group plan through your employer	Mar 03 22:51
DaemonFC	group plan costs about $80 a month or so for a decent policy	Mar 03 22:51
schestowitz	confucius sez, Man use brain, not uses Apple cock	Mar 03 22:52
MinceR	lol	Mar 03 22:52
MinceR	well said	Mar 03 22:52
DaemonFC	MinceR, The problem is tht everything your employer is paying is money that you're not making	Mar 03 22:52
DaemonFC	which goes to the insurance cartel instead	Mar 03 22:52
MinceR	DaemonFC: i know	Mar 03 22:52
DaemonFC	behind your back of course	Mar 03 22:52
oiaohm	Diablo-D3: Premodern age ye olde common table salt was sea salt. It caught a lot of researchers how important the less than 0.20 percent of contamination of other salts and items are to the effects on blood presure.	Mar 03 22:52
DaemonFC	MinceR, The cartel thrives on people behind stupid and not knowing how much of their pay is really diverted to health insurance	Mar 03 22:53
DaemonFC	now that more people know what it realyl costs, they're pissed	Mar 03 22:53
DaemonFC	*being stupid	Mar 03 22:53
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] Mário Franco: foram 854M€ vs Mário Lino: foram 900M€. Logo 46M€ ou são trocos para esta gente, ou algo q começa por L e rima com uva...		Mar 03 22:53
DaemonFC	the get fired and find out that $100 plan is really $600 a month to continue	Mar 03 22:54
DaemonFC	been there	Mar 03 22:54
schestowitz	"RE: @techflash I'm curious what the PR strategy is here. The Microsoft blog post seemed so unnecessarily aggressive an… http://disq.us/d72nj " http://twitter.com/josephtartakoff/statuses/9808364450	Mar 03 22:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 302 FOUND .::. Size~: 0 KB	Mar 03 22:56
schestowitz	^two MS boosters	Mar 03 22:56
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Twitter / Joseph Tartakoff: RE: @techflash I'm curious ... .::. Size~: 10.24 KB	Mar 03 22:56
DaemonFC	health insurance is like Microsoft only worse	Mar 03 22:56
schestowitz	MAFIAA too	Mar 03 22:56
DaemonFC	their business relies on you not knowing how much the product really cost you	Mar 03 22:56
oiaohm	Not always the case. DaemonFC Our fair trade laws prevents lot of that. What it was here is that the insurance companies were giving volume discounts to companies. Then ripping end users off. Nice breach of fair trade when there was no cost reductions. Ie it cost the same to add the people either way.	Mar 03 22:57
DaemonFC	yours might	Mar 03 22:58
DaemonFC	ours don't	Mar 03 22:58
oiaohm	Question what one is it.	Mar 03 22:58
DaemonFC	Ours is designed to help the villains fuck each and every one of us as hard as possible	Mar 03 22:58
oiaohm	Ie was the company only paying 100 dollars.	Mar 03 22:58
oiaohm	And when you were no longer volume you had to pay full as it was here.	Mar 03 22:58
DaemonFC	hmm, the problem with having an unreleased CD.....	Mar 03 22:59
DaemonFC	there's no tags on FreeDB	Mar 03 22:59
oiaohm	I guess there is nothing in USA law to prevent unfair trade.	Mar 03 23:00
DaemonFC	there are on some things	Mar 03 23:00
*jono has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)		Mar 03 23:00
DaemonFC	false and deceptive advertising laws	Mar 03 23:00
DaemonFC	the lemon law on car sales	Mar 03 23:00
DaemonFC	stuff like that	Mar 03 23:00
oiaohm	lemon law we still need.	Mar 03 23:00
DaemonFC	the problem is that the insurance companies lie through omission	Mar 03 23:01
DaemonFC	or misrepresenting the facts	Mar 03 23:01
DaemonFC	PROVE it was on purpose	Mar 03 23:01
DaemonFC	you can't, fuck you, game over, the end	Mar 03 23:01
oiaohm	Both get on the wrong side of fair trade. Here.	Mar 03 23:01
DaemonFC	that's how insurance operates	Mar 03 23:01
oiaohm	Now ours likes to berry you under a stack of paper work listing everything.	Mar 03 23:02
oiaohm	And I do mean everything.	Mar 03 23:02
oiaohm	So you will not bother reading it.	Mar 03 23:02
schestowitz	http://arebentisch.wordpress.com/2010/03/03/brusselsblogger-and-bluntness/	Mar 03 23:02
phIRCe-BNc	Title: Brusselsblogger and bluntness: La Poste « SkÃ¶ne Oke .::. Size~: 17.05 KB	Mar 03 23:02
oiaohm	Yes some even list the price to go to there office and get a bit of paper photocopied.	Mar 03 23:02
oiaohm	In a medical insurance policy DaemonFC	Mar 03 23:03
DaemonFC	Easytag has Christian Gangsta Rap as an option for genre?	Mar 03 23:03
DaemonFC	That EXISTS?