EARLY REVIEWS of OpenSUSE 11.1 were mixed, but the more recent ones were slightly better. There are several types that we rarely include here as that would be perceived as an 'attack' on a 'community' (never mind if OpenSUSE is truly controlled by Novell). To give just one example of OpenSUSE disappointments, there is this one guy who tried it before finalisation (GrandMastering):
...I sold my soul to openSUSE and then I stole it back...
I don't know if it is the right place... But I just want to renew my appreciation to Ubuntu...
I wanted to try something different, so I installed openSUSE 11... It was a mess... shortly after the installation I could not update, because the update engine freezed up... My viedo card was not recognized... so I installed the driver from the official site... It took me 3 hours to make it work.. And so on...
If you want to run the openSUSE Live CD, you must think about it twice. Because a critical mistake can ruin your PC. There is a configuration file “/etc/sysconfig/clock”, who sets the Hardware clock when the PC is rebooted or halts. The trouble is that some old motherboards do not update correctly (or the opeSUSE’s code is wrong). This “default” configuration can ruin the hardware and affect to other systems.
The issue with Go-OO is that it is badly influenced by Novell. In the name of interoperability, the dirty M$ technologies are infused to it by them. On the other hand, Sun's OpenOffice is a heavily branded one.
Comments
jo Shields
2008-12-27 20:11:12
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 20:14:43
jo Shields
2008-12-27 20:47:10
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 20:57:40
jo Shields
2008-12-27 21:14:30
Here's the reality.
Firstly, read Eric S Raymond's book "The Cathedral and the Bazaar". An online version is here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/ - this will provide some background terms and concepts.
OpenOffice,Org is Sun Microsystems' Cathedral product. Whilst it is Free Software, they do not permit features which would make it too good compared to their proprietary StarOffice version (e.g. equation solver), they do not permit features which don't fit into their business model (e.g. macros with non-Java languages), they don't permit features from anyone who won't give a complete copyright grant to Sun (something Roy has moaned about, but of course never when it's Sun doing it). They also don't accept any improvements or fixes to their build system - they're simply not interested in outside contribution from Linux distribution maintainers. This kind of "central planning" Free Software is what ESR refers to as "Cathedral" design - quiet, unsociable, private.
Go-OO is not, despite Roy's claims, a fork, nor a tool for Microsoft. Go-OO is Novell's bazaar, on the foot of the Cathedral steps. Go-OO is the place where anyone outside Sun's permitted circle may improve OOo in a collaborative way, rather than the usual per-distro-patches system. Added features, improvements, fixes (especially to the build system) flow into end users' systems not via Sun's closed processes, but via the leaderless chaos of Go-OO. It IS Novell-sponsored (meaning a lot of the initial work, and many of the patches, come from Novell) but distributors also are able to submit patches upwards via Go-OO, and are free to include as little or as much of the complete patch set as they like.
The thing is, nobody really wants either situation. Nobody wants Sun's cathedral (look at XFree86 as an example of what happens to projects which are unfriendly towards improvements, compared to X.Org); Nobody wants a corporate sponsored bazaar (where there can be complaints of influence). What people WANT is Go-OO to end up under the control of a non-profit, independent Foundation, the way GNOME is. an OOo Foundation would not intentionally cripple the "Free" project (the way Sun do to sell StarOffice) , and neither would they unilaterally permit features which could be considered harmful, whilst allowing contributions from anyone and everyone, in a properly "Free" and "Open" way.
As it stands, Go-OO is closer to the ideal than Sun upstream. This is why every major Linux distribution ignores Sun's broken build system, and uses the Go-OO patchset (with the precious ooo-build inside) as a base. Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, openSUSE, Mandriva, all use ooo-build and a selection of the juicy treats in the Go-OO patchset.
If Sun forms an OOo Foundation to push the bazaar without a corporate overlord in the background, then Go-OO dies overnight. It's THEIR decision - the distributors have obviously spoken on how they want to be involved, by picking Go-OO as the basis for their distro packages.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 21:24:13
Novell has mono copyrights too.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 21:29:27
jo Shields
2008-12-27 21:30:37
Yes, they do.
Though Roy was criticizing Evolution a couple of days ago because contribution towards its upstream requires copyright assignment to Novell. Same thing.
Copyright assignment is only ever required to permit relicensing (only a copyright holder may relicense). Novell uses it with Mono to relicense its runtime as non-Free, for use in embedded scenarios (e.g. Wii or iPhone games). Sun uses it with OOo to relicense as non-Free, for use in StarOffice.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 21:33:47
seller_liar
2008-12-27 21:39:24
I believe which is possible to create a new macro model,but can be installed like a plugin .For sun , it's very important to include java as default macro.It's a business model .It's not a fight against contribution.
If you want a feature , use the plugin and external interfaces. There's no need for novell fork.
There's no need to create a fork (and attack original oo, and put stupid OOXML as "feature" , and put the "wonderful " vba macro style)
seller_liar
2008-12-27 21:41:12
Ahem , Novell.
Obs: I don't like mono and OOXML. I
seller_liar
2008-12-27 21:42:23
Ahem , Novell.
Obs: I don't like mono and OOXML. I will do a fork of GO.OO.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 21:43:57
"Our partnership with Microsoft continues to expand."
--Ron Hovsepian, Novell CEO
"[The partnership with Microsoft is] going very well insofar as we originally agreed to co-operate on three distinct projects and now we’re working on nine projects and there’s a good list of 19 other projects that we plan to co-operate on."
--Ron Hovsepian, Novell CEO
seller_liar
2008-12-27 21:48:09
Damn , I 'll do a fork o mono called jmono !!!!!!!!!!!!
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 21:51:21
jo Shields
2008-12-27 21:59:13
http://ftp.novell.com/pub/mono/sources-stable/
"ikvmbin-0.36.0.11.zip" is the archive containing a Java compiler.
Try again.
jo Shields
2008-12-27 22:02:20
Why Novell? If Sun start the foundation, they'd obviously be the ones to pick the initial board members.
Better talk to Sun then, Sun developed OOXML support for OOo3, despite Roy's constant pretending otherwise
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:09:02
Some time ago Sun does not permit because OOXML is enemy of ODF.And because there are a lot of M$ format.
Sun permits now because I$O corruption accepted OOXML because it's a standard now.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 22:09:36
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:10:20
And novell probably can be a leader on this.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 22:11:29
jo Shields
2008-12-27 22:23:32
Or perhaps we hate people who parrot made-up nonsense enough that the mentally subnormal believe it.
It's a garbage format, I've said that more than once - but it's a GOOD THING to be able to open files produced in that format, using Free Software (which is pretty much Sun's argument as to why they developed support for it on their dime). And despite your constant attempts to push the two together, your addition of ".NET" on your childish mocking name there is fantasy - OOXML is just zipped XML crap, it has zero to do with .NET
"oo contributors" - that's the problem. Sun use Cathedral design - only a tiny handful of people are permitted to contribute. Go-OO is the system used by every distro because it's the only one that works. If Sun pushed for a foundation, instead of their cathedral, then people would back it.
Sure. But in a foundation, they should get no special favours nor special mistreatment - everyone gets an equal footing. That's the POINT of a foundation.
Perhaps if you were less facetious in your "ZOMG!!^&"€£^%$!!" post, I might be less in kind.
Sun "permits" (read: personally works on) OOXML support, because it's a format in the wild, and OOo needs to support formats people use. In that respect it's no different to any other format, except it gives Roy sleep difficulty.
And the 2008 award for melodramatic bollocks goes to...
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 22:31:02
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:35:02
Sun permits,but sun does not approve. But it's important for sun because there are some people using. But is Better for Sun if people use ODF.
Sun does not like OOXML.But it supports because of $tupid business .
Probably Sun has a good reason to don t permit all contributions.Sun IT'S NOT against contributors.
Novell promoves OOXML and .net .It's not a good leader .Novell has a bad history too.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:40:02
OOXML is a m$ format made to DESTROY ODF.
Sun and other DOES NOT support OOXML.But permits to use OOXML.
And Sun is not against contributors. There are some reasons for don t support all contribution .
jo Shields
2008-12-27 22:40:41
It was melodrama of the highest order; demagogy of epic proportions. If your argument could stand on its own, you wouldn't need such tripe.
Yes! Correct!
Yes! Correct!
Depends on your definition of "good reason" really.
I'm not saying Novell are sweetness and innocence and light, I'm saying Sun AREN'T, and that double standards should have no place in rational argument.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 22:42:23
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:45:41
Please focuses on argument, not in personal choices.
Sun is better than novell I believe, because ,sun is the major contributor to open source and does not promove Micro$hit formats.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 22:47:40
seller_liar
2008-12-27 22:51:08
Why all people is not permited to contribute ?
Sun is forced to support OOXML .
jo Shields
2008-12-27 22:55:04
The message is imaginary, and if you think you'd give any equally poor metaphors a free ride from a critic, you must be dreaming.
Sun explicitly added support for OOXML to OOo, on their own budget. That is not the same as "Sun support OOXML and think everyone and their granny should use it". As explicitly stated on their blog here: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS/entry/office_open_xml_ooxml_filters - support for OOXML is driven out of a need for OOo to support the file formats people are using.
Even if None of the ISO strong-arming had happened, Office 2K7 would still be shipping with OOXML as the default format, files would still be floating about saved in that format, and OOo would still be a second class citizen without support for that file.
As I said in my reply to your "BN should censor replies" post, Roy, one of your main problems which harms your credibility is your tendency to try and defend the indefensible regardless of reality.
The reality is this: SUN added OOXML support to OOo, to improve the software by allowing it to work with more formats. That's a GOOD THING. Making OOo better is good. Saying "they fought it" is utter utter tripe - they fought a second document standard being allowed into ISO, and with good reason - but they would STILL have needed to improve OOo to work with the non-standard OOXML format used by thousands of Office 2k7 users. They did NOT fight implementing support, which is your claim (or attempt to distort).
Instead of acknowledging this reality, you CONSTANTLY come up with piles and piles of, for want of a better word, crap - insisting that it's Novell-only (it's not, Sun's OOXML support has no basis on the Go-OO OOXML support from OOo 2.x); insisting that it's a Novell/Microsoft patent trap (why would Sun put their users at risk intentionally? If they do, why won't you call them out for it)? Insisting that OOXML and .NET are related (you think Sun's OOXML support involves .NET? Really?)
When you CONSTANTLY talk such utter, utter, tripe, it does nothing but harm your credibility - you're not the guy uncovering dark truths about Microsoft, you're the guy who talks utter utter tripe in the face of reality. It's like trying to pan for gold in a sewage processing plant.
So now, Roy, is your chance to rise from your self-created puddle. Say, in words of one syllable or less, EITHER: * That Sun (with their OOXML implementation) are intentionally putting their users at patent-related risk or * That Sun (with their OOXML implementation) don't feel there is any patent risk from OOXML.
One of the two statements must be true. I believe it's the second. You pretend Sun aren't the ones behind OOXML support in OOo3 in order to pretend the question is loaded, when it really isn't.
There's your bloody message, Roy.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:00:45
Sun is forced to support OOXML .
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:00:58
As for OOXML, in Novell's plug-in it's a Mono intrusion vector. People should purge Mono from their systems.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:02:37
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:03:56
I will fork Go.oo , I don t like mono and OOXML.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:07:29
Notice the first item/selling point:
Your Office Suite
Better interoperability
"Go-oo has built in OpenXML... [...] If you are reliant on Excel VBA macros - then Go-oo offers the best macro fidelity too."
jo Shields
2008-12-27 23:09:29
What do you call the ability to open OOXML files, if not OOXML support? Christ on a bike...
SUN MICROSYSTEMS SPENT THEIR OWN FUNDS AND DEVELOPER RESOURCES ON THE ABILITY TO READ MICROSOFT OFFICE OPEN XML FILES IN SUN OPENOFFICE.ORG. EITHER THEY DO SO INTENTIONALLY PUTTING PEOPLE AT RISK FROM PATENT SUITS, OR FEEL THERE IS NO SUCH RISK. HOW HARD IS THIS FOR YOU?
"Novell's plug-in" is imaginary. You're talking about the exact opposite of reality, in an effort to distort, for the benefit of the idiots who believe you have some actual credibility.
Discontinued, deprecated OOXML support in Go-OO 2.x does not use Mono; Sun's OOXML support in OOo 3.x does not use Mono - what uses Mono is Novell's plug-in for Microsoft Office 2k7 allowing output of ODF files (other ODF plugins for Office 2k7 exist, including one from Sun)
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:09:36
I suppose you don't think about the patents associated with it and the Mono (.NET). It's an attack on Java too, to elevate the Microsoft API. There is also a good chance that Microsoft will buy Novell some time in the future, along with its copyrighted assets that include many GNU/Linux programs. They would also buy out the WordPerfect lawsuit that way (about a third of Novell's market cap).
Based on Sun's word, Go-OO is a fork. Novell's friends would try to deny this.
jo Shields
2008-12-27 23:10:38
You don't need to fork it, you just don't turn on the patches you don't want (e.g. Mandriva does not use the Mono-related patches, but still uses Go-OO). And if you don't want OOXML, you need to patch OOo to remove it, as Sun are the ones who added support for it.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:13:32
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:15:37
jo Shields
2008-12-27 23:17:30
Wait, I get it - by not answering, then you can continue to perpetuate your lies ad infinitum! It's genius! And here was me thinking you were merely dense.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:20:10
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:20:13
The business model is normal, There's no need to criticise Sun .Novell and others do the same . And the solution is EASY.
External interfaces and plugins helps a lot.
We need more attack against m$-oo and not canibalisation.
seller_liar
2008-12-27 23:23:57
Sun is the major contributor to open-source , There's no need to put OO as a worst solution (like go-oo site does).
And there are good solutions.The plugin interface is very expansible.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:28:55
Obedience, not support.
Please, no shouting in BN. The kids are asleep. :-p Development is not the same as promoting it in a conference like Novell did.
It exists and it helped Microsoft.
That plugin did its job. It helped Microsoft.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:32:36
As OOo developers may say, Meeks always uses the "I'm just a hacker" defence.
Someone wrote to me an hour ago (not someone from OOo):
"Yeah, Meeks has been out to do as much damage as he can to OOo. I'm not sure what his motivation is but it does not matter. What is a good approach to neutralize his rants?
"In general, MS proxies have been running such campaigns against Sun. OOo is hurting MS more than most people could ever imagine. OpenDocument Format is only a small part of that. OOo marketing needs to put down Meeks, warn of the dangers in his fork of OOo, and steer people to the real OOo."
jo Shields
2008-12-27 23:32:57
From Sun? "Obedience"?
Still won't answer the question, then?
Here it is again, since you seem to have forgotten it:
Did Sun, by implementing the ability to read OOXML files in OOo, either: * intentionally put people at patent related risk, or * feel there is no such patent risk?
By enabling Office users to save to ODF? How does that help Microsoft?
And either extend your criticism to http://www.sun.com/software/star/odf_plugin/, or admit to a heavy bias and double-standards. One or t'other.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-27 23:39:20
None of the above. You're asking bad questions, just like the one below.
No, they enabled OOXML.
it helped Microsoft cheat and corrupt ISO.
jo Shields
2008-12-27 23:49:04
Sun, despite the reality that exists only in your mind disagreeing, implemented the ability, at their expense, to read OOXML files in OOo.
Are you arguing with this segment of reality?
Since you say OOXML represents a major patent risk to users, how is the question anything but simple? Either Sun feel those patent risks exist or don't. How is there a third option? How is it a "bad question"?
Will you always leap to that whenever attempting to defend the indefensible?
You started off with "As for OOXML, in Novell’s plug-in it’s a Mono intrusion vector." - as there's only one plug in for anything related by Novell written by Novell with Mono which is an ODF plugin, how does allowing people to use ODF help spread OOXML?
If you're talking not about the ODF plugin for Microsoft Office, but about the obsolete OOXML support in Go-OO 2.x, then ADMIT YOU WERE WRONG IN LINKING MONO TO IT - it does not use Mono in any way, shape, or form. And despite your pretend reality, OOXML is not any kind of default format in Go-OO 2.x - it's an additional format, same as any other.
If you think an obsolete low-quality filter from Novell is indefensible doom whereas a better one from Sun is sweetness and light, that just makes YOU look like the king of double standards.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 00:00:47
I'll have a look later. I'm too tired.
http://sourceforge.net/forum/forum.php?forum_id=660889
You confuse us with the corruptible ISO.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 00:13:52
"the ODF Add-in for Microsoft Word 2007 allows to Open & Save ODF documents in Word."
Yep, I can see how that helps spread OOXML.
You think you're trustworthy, Roy? Hint: You're not.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 00:15:47
You're boosting Mono, so of course you don't like what I write.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 00:26:12
I don't like lies and deception regardless of who says them. ESPECIALLY if they're supposedly on the same "side" as me, because lies and FUD would harm MY arguments by association.
Just because I hate a site built from the ground up on lies, demagogy, distortion, FUD, lies, fabrication, and lies, doesn't mean I'm incapable of interesting and informative discussions with Mono critics capable of adult conversation.
Much as you might not be capable of comprehending it, there are actually positions between "Marxism" and "Steve Ballmer for supreme global overlord", and there are multiple positions on multiple points possible on an individual basis. Though you've never shown any interest in reality, when make-believe serves your ad impressions better.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 00:30:14
jo Shields
2008-12-28 00:34:40
Absolutely, 100% true. And I'd support to the death anyone's freedom to hold different opinions to me, and to have a different perspective to me.
But I wouldn't agree with supporting that position on a basis of lies.
As I said in my reply to your "yay for censorship" post a few days ago, one of your key problems is using demagogy to support your positions.
Your positions should be so strong, so ingrained in undeniable proof, that you don't NEED such cheap tricks to support them. Every word you type should be supportable by a mountain of reality which can crush your critics. As it stands, you attempt to defend points which are trivially disproven - which cuts away at the very core of any argument you care to make ("if he gets something as simple as foo so wrong, why should his story about bar be believed?")
Ian
2008-12-28 01:00:35
Wrong. Java is used extensively in NetWare, used to build Console 1/iManager/Orchestrator/Groupwise Cross Platform client/parts of ZCM/ and loads of other pieces of software with it.
Actually, they use Java heavily.
Ed Landaveri
2008-12-28 03:09:36
Yes, that' s how's supposed to be but GOO i'ts Novell sponsored and that's the point. Anything that helps Novell, helps Microsoft. Like it or not. Novell and Microsoft are in a partnership that HAS helped Microsoft NOT the community from which Suse was built.
Novell is promoting Microsoft technologies. That's another fact in order to get market share that in the end damages the community that created Linux and FOSS. That's the real point. Anything else is misleading. In the same way that same way that Microsoft pretends to make the world believe that it's shared source it's the same as FREE OPEN SOURCE.
Let us not forget "If It ain't GNU v3, It's NOT Open Source".
Why support in any way a company that HAS helped to corrupt ISO and that has given implicit reasons to a MONOPOLIST that Linux is violating some of it's "code", which by the way they never said which ones? Like it or not to support it its betraying the community that has made Linux and FOSS what is now - a superior Operating System and Software.-
Why support a convicted MONOPOLIST that never going to change it's behavior of crushing competition by bribery, corruption and NOT on quality? Why support a convicted MONOPOLIST that keeps US Schools and millions of children hostages?
Why support a convicted MONOPOLIST that continually and inhumanely tries to suppress the development of Third World countries by choking their technological development and Freedom? Why support anybody who helps Microsoft on its own goals of COLONIALISM and global domination?
Sadly to support Novell is to support this convicted MONOPOLIST and COLONIALIST. We have to take the bull by the horns and name things what they are. Anything else is misgiving. The goal it's to overthrow it's domination attempts and give the people of all countries, especially Third World countries FREEDOM that they deserve for their future generations and all the benefits of a Free market not the market controlled by one company!
Ian
2008-12-28 04:40:05
That's sarcasm, right?
pcolon
2008-12-28 06:15:10
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 07:21:12
Yes, I agree entirely.
@Ian:
Yes, I know about Java, but in certain area Novell always chooses Mono over Java, for example the SUSE desktop. How many projects has Novell begun which use Java? How many that are Mono based?
@Jo:
I never wrote about censorship. A reader did; I was opposed to it.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 10:19:17
tom
2008-12-28 09:24:09
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 09:56:45
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=501190
It's not official yet, but moonlight will most likely enter debian in a few days / weeks. It's too late for it to enter Lenny, but it will make it for Squeeze. Still, it's unlikely that it will be part of the default desktop install.
It seems Jo Shields is responsible for this (he has been sparring with us on BN too because we stand in his way).
Homer asked me, "Who is he? Does he have some kind of connection with Novell and/or Microsoft?"
tom
2008-12-28 10:07:25
tom
2008-12-28 10:21:49
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 10:31:38
jo Shields
2008-12-28 10:39:30
I don't need to discredit you, Roy. You do that yourself to an expert degree. See also: my reply on your censorship post from last week
I wondered whether you'd been paying any attention to the moonlight ITP.
Why would it be part of the default desktop install? It's a browser plugin. That would be dumb.
http://inspectorgadget.net/images/Inspector Gadget/Claw_Inspector_Gadget.jpg I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME SCHEISTOWITZ!
Or not. You don't "stand in my way" because nobody sane opposed to assorted technologies like Moonlight or Mono cites you, because you come across as a conspiracy-obsessed nutcase who would harm their argument by association.
Your most subnormal of readers cause ANNOYANCE, certainly, with annoying noise in places like forums, but that's as far as it goes.
Already answered elsewhere, not going into it again without good reason - suffice it to say for Homer's benefit, "LEAVE THE SODDING CONSPIRACY THEORIES ALONE YOU FREAK".
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 10:46:59
Novell and Microsoft have been a conspiracy -- by definition -- since May 2006 when they began conspiring against GPLv2. That's a fact, OK?
The fact that people like Miguel de Icaza help this conspiracy -- for money or whatnot -- well, that's a fact. It remains to be seen who else helps them.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 10:53:02
I don't suppose you're even capable of comprehending a scenario where people who disagree with you are not, in fact, paid employees of Microsoft or Novell? It doesn't, does it?
Some of us simply hate your anti-Freedom crusade, as concerned third parties. Can you comprehend that? Can you?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 11:07:00
There are interests to consider too. Citrix is not a Microsoft employee, but it helps Microsoft's agenda. How come?
tom
2008-12-28 11:20:58
jo Shields
2008-12-28 11:22:07
Oh yes, your beloved "interests". Handwavey and vague enough that you can mean ANYTHING with them.
Please, Roy, tell us all: what are my "interests" here? How does "helping Microsoft" or "helping Novell" benefit me, directly or indirectly?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 11:28:04
jo Shields
2008-12-28 11:36:15
Can I talk about your "vested interests" in Java then? Am I officially allowed to talk about your pro-Sun bias?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 12:01:12
jo Shields
2008-12-28 12:05:37
Is that a "yes"?
You have "vested interests", under your own terms, in Sun?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 12:22:06
As such, you help Microsoft take my freedom away.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 12:28:53
More question dodging. You take greasiness to new levels, Roy.
When "we" do it, it's "vested interests", when "you" do it, it's sweetness and light and saving the universe. Is that right?
You don't understand the meaning of the word, Roy. That's why you fight against it so hard.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 12:38:30
What question did I dodge? I have no interest in Sun as a company, but the software they spread helps the GNU project.
Well, you promote and spread Microsoft technologies. Microsoft is an highly unethical -- dare I say "criminal" -- organisation.
You must be confusing freedom and freedom of choice, which is only an illusion of freedom.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 12:53:42
So it's OK for Sun to spread OOXML?
And you persist in saying any critic of yours has "vested interests", but you have none at all? REALLY?
Plenty of things are "Microsoft technologies". AJAX, for example.
I promote and spread quality Free Software projects. I have no interest in Microsoft or Novell.
You must be confusing "illusion of freedom" and "hatred of freedom" - you campaign not FOR things, but AGAINST things. You attack things which don't fit your narrow circle of "permitted" technologies. In essence, you're a crusader AGAINST freedom. You work to ensure people can't choose their license - unless it's on your permitted list (attacks against CDDL and Ms-PL). You work to ensure people can't choose their OS - unless it's on your permitted list (attacks against openSUSE)
You're one of the biggest anti-Freedom advocates on the internet today. You and Ballmer are alike, the only difference being the contents of your "permitted" lists.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 13:00:56
It doesn't do this. You're diverting the discussion again.
I care about Freedom, not Microsoft technologies.
You're confusing "technologies" with patents or prior art.
You're spreading Novell projects (Mono, Moonlight) and Microsoft APIs.
No, there are technologies that are specifically designed to restrict your freedom, such as DRM. There are companies that hate Freedom, such as Microsoft and Apple. Should we promote these anyway? You know, for the sake of "freedom" (of action). Is the freedom to abuse a freedom?
jo Shields
2008-12-28 13:21:11
Roy, here's the short version:
You're an irredeemable liar.
If you want to open an OOXML file, how do you do it? You go to www.openoffice.org, download SUN OpenOffice.org, and there you go, you can open OOXML files.
You CONTINUED attempts to assert an alternative reality serve only to make you look pathetic.
Again, it's clear you don't understand the concept of Freedom. And that's not an answer to what I said anyway.
YOU'RE the one who constantly does this. You're massively pro-patent (with your selective "don't do that, it might violate a sacrosanct patent"), and you pretend prior art doesn't exist (with your "everything in the world can invalidate patents with prior art. Except Mono, that somehow can't, because The Royinator declares it so")
Microsoft APIs like GTK#, Mono.Addins, etc?
You know what? I've heard Microsoft has a C compiler! ZOMG!!!!
To a degree, yes. People SHOULD have the freedom to build their own cages - and the freedom to reject them too. DRM in audio is dying, not because of campaigns, but because ordinary people have learnt what it means to be trapped by proprietary DRM. People are moving towards more Open solutions, such as Firefox or OOo, and learning that one of the key benefits of doing so is the rate at which great new features are added or bugs fixed.
People don't like to be ordered around. They don't like to be told "you can't do that", they don't like to be told "you can't use that license", they don't like to be told "you can't use that framework", they don't like to be told "you can't run that". They want to be free to do as they please. If they choose poorly and are burnt by their error (e.g. DRM) then they'll know better next time. If they learn to hate Vista or MS Office on their own, then they'll actively WANT to be told about better alternatives - they won't, however, respond well if you try to convince them to change when they're happy with their choice.
True freedom means proprietary and closed systems, such as DRM, SHOULD be allowed to exist - and fail - on their own merits (or lack thereof).
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 13:28:56
No, it's a diversion because Novell helped Microsoft push OOXML through ISO. You're using a straw man again.
*LOL*
Enough said. You're out of touch because this Web site is very patents-hostile.
You help developers sway towards Microsoft-esque development.
You're being coy. People are not given these choices and they are misinformed about them.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 13:38:16
ISO HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
If you think Office 2K7 would have released without OOXML as the default format depending on what happened in ISO, then you're shrooming.
If you think Sun would have allowed OOo to be a second class citizen, only able to open files from Office 2k3 or earlier, but not 2k7, then you're shrooming.
Really? You treat patents as a holy thing, something to always obey and abide by, a holy grail which must not be disturbed. You don't think patents should be ignored, you think they should be bowed down to as the pinnacle of achievement.
Define "Microsoft-esque development". You mean like AJAX, a MSIE-only web technology, does?
Which makes them even angrier when the truth happens.
Why do YOU, oh all-knowing Roy, think DRM in music is dying off?
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 13:45:43
Why do you think Microsoft wanted it so badly that it resorted to corruption? Do you not know the answer or do you only pretend not to?
Software patents are not legitimate, but Microsoft uses them as FUD and Mono fuels this FUD. For detailed explanations of this point, see:
http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/19/why-not-mono-car-analogy/ http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/20/mono-java-dotnet-analysis/
Microsoft-led technology that promotes use of Windows+MS stack while demoting those other 'second-class' citizens ('Windows for the poor').
If you think it's a done war, think again. Windows and Mac OS X are /HUGE/ DRM traps and it's getting worse all the time.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 13:57:24
As part of their evil plot to make Sun add OOXML support to OOo? Really?
Good GOD you're dim.
Microsoft strong-armed ISO in order to ensure the default Office 2k7 format would be an "open standard", ensuring governments and companies leaning towards standard formats (i.e. ODF) for their data retention would be able to deploy Office 2k7 as-is.
It has NOTHING to do with why Sun added OOXML support to OOo - they would have needed to do that for OOo to be useful to average people (who might be sent files in Office 2k7 format, standard or not, and need to open them)
A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury and signifying nothing.
Microsoft uses patents as FUD, like you do. You know the cure for FUD? IGNORE IT. You know why Microsoft haven't sued anyone over their supposed patent violations? Because it would harm them - they'd either lose (and lose their ability to FUD), or win but harm their business so badly via assorted blowback that the costs would outweigh the benefits.
You've already said in a previous argument that you don't actually care about specific patent violations in Mono, you just like using it as FUD.
Which apps I contribute towards run on Windows, then?
F-Spot? Banshee? Monodevelop? Muine? Cowbell? Drapes? Last-Exit?
Can you name ONE which "promotes use of Windows+MS stack while demoting those other ’second-class’ citizens" - or do you want to just admit to FUD and lies? Wait, that would never happen...
Strange, I was under the impression DRM was disappearing from Apple music track by track, that competitors like Amazon and Play.com were DRM-free, and that an increasing number of DRM stores were shutting down and locking people out of their music
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 14:04:09
Patents are only part of the problem and your attitude towards FUD does not affect the attitude of others.
I talk about a developer's POV. Mono vs. .NET; MonoDevelop vs. Visual Studio.
Public announcement: DRM is not just music. Far from it.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 14:18:12
Lol, wut?
If you think ISO adoption has anything to do with whether OOXML is prevalent in the wild, you're shrooming.
NEWS FLASH: .doc is not an ISO standard, yet is found in the wild. Uncanny, no?
You don't ever like to be specific about things though, do you, Roy. Because specifics are a cure to FUD. See, I said it! "Specifics!".
Given how much you make up on the spot to try and FUD Mono, not a word you say without backing in fact has any merit, and you never back in fact because you CAN'T.
Explain properly.
How does Gnome-Do being written in C# on Ubuntu help make Ubuntu a second-class citizen and promote Windows?
Or are you lying for the purposes of FUD?
You know, it's not healthy to lie that much. Did you ever see Pinocchio?
Where, pray tell, did I say it was?
It's merely a decent example of a DRM-infested medium that's losing its DRM - the market has spoken against DRM.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 14:30:06
The repeated insinuations that I'm on drugs (I never touched any) make you less worthy of an answer, but you always want the last word, don't you?
Words are cheap. Examples please.
It's about making developers dependent on Microsoft. It's less about end users and programs they are given.
Personal insults again. Noted.
Your selective example needed the whistle to be blown. There is also TC.
jo Shields
2008-12-28 15:14:26
Have a nice life, Roy. I'll continue mine without attempting to find a reason in the delusional and moronic.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 15:23:13
Ian
2008-12-28 16:27:03
How many projects, aside from the ones I've listed? You're trying to compare a few desktop projects to all of those. They use, what they believe to be, the best tool for the job.
Pcolon, No, GPLv3 is not sarcasm; Open Source as defined by Microsoft is.
That wasn't my point. My question was whether or not the quote I posted was sarcasm or not. Because if it was, fine. If it wasn't, I'm pretty sure the people who spend time actually working on free software that isn't gpl would disagree with that idiotic statement.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 16:43:57
New projects.
That's the problem. Novell views Mono as better and safer than Java. These are Novell-sponsored projects with copyrights assigned to Novell.
Novell receives a lot of money from Microsoft. It's therefore not surprising that it promotes Microsoft's APIs.
neighborlee
2008-12-28 18:50:59
Good for you roy for doing a great job at trying to debate a serious topic that affects all foss users even though throughout some people were trying to distract with colorful adjectives, though to their dismay making it more than clear than ever, that their goal wasn't serious debate between respected peers, but serious insults and attacks meant to be divisive.
I dont know what religion or mindset that would embrace , but thats not what mine teaches me , nor I'm rather sure most others and its definitely not how we're getting to the next century and beyond in any meaningful way. It's a shame we all ( including Microsoft) can't work together toward common goals, but hey I guess atm thats just not colorful or dramatic enough, but a goal worth achieving for all of us ;)
cheers nl
Dan O'Brian
2008-12-28 20:57:38
1. Novell gave up requesting for (C) assignment on Evolution quite a while ago, last spring iirc - thanks to 2 developers that Roy likes to bash on this site (Michael Meeks and Jeff Steadfast)
2. Novell doesn't require (C) assignment for all parts of Mono, just the VM and possibly compiler, afaik. It also does not have 2 versions of Mono (like Sun does with Open/StarOffice) where the free-software one is crippled in any way (like OOo is compared to Star).
3. Novell never required (C) assignment to any of the Mono-based projects afaict. Beagle is no longer under Novell's control, it is maintained by a KDE developer. MonoDevelop, while mostly developed by Novell, does not require (C) assignment. I don't think Banshee or F-Spot require it either (I can find nothing to say that either does). The rest of the Mono-based applications are written by third-parties.
Myfraudsoft
2008-12-28 21:26:49
* Extensions and mail/calendar functionality comes with StarOffice Software, with OpenOffice.org you have to download each extension separately. * Sun warranty and indemnification. * Hot fixes, patches and updates (OOo is full installation). * Committed timelines. * 3 free warranty support calls (in retail). * Customization, if business opportunity is big enough."
I just don't see how is OpenOffice 'crippled' compared to StarOffice? More MSFT-Myfraudsoft FUD I guess?
AlexH
2008-12-28 22:01:41
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 22:06:05
AlexH
2008-12-28 22:34:52
Myfraudsoft
2008-12-28 22:41:34
Myfraudsoft
2008-12-28 22:57:16
AlexH
2008-12-28 23:17:46
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 23:24:05
AlexH
2008-12-28 23:32:28
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-28 23:35:45
Didn't Simon tell us that he would change that "indemnification" bit?
AlexH
2008-12-28 23:49:36
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-29 00:02:27
"Web page: wow, it sucks. While there are actually quite a few people who do want to know Sun will catch the bullet for them in the unlikely event anyone tries to fire one, I think that feature listing is disproportionate to the demand. And it doesn’t mention the support that’s available for OpenOffice.org. I’ll go get the page changed."
AlexH
2008-12-29 00:04:04
AlexH
2008-12-29 00:11:09
Personally, I think Sun are right to offer customers indemnification.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-29 00:11:12
Dan
2008-12-29 11:45:12
Roy; From what I understood among Jo's colourful wording, he seems to think you live in a delusion. Whilst it is true you may be biased, you are nonetheless entitled to your own opinions. I beleive Jo's problem was he beleived what you said to be incorrect.
Jo was out of order, you were not.
Note; this is not an agreement or disagreement over the conflict.
stevetheFLY
2008-12-29 12:48:42
Note: comment has been flagged for arriving from an incarnation of a known (eet), pseudonymous, forever-nymshifting, abusive Internet troll that posts from open proxies and relays around the world.
Ian
2008-12-29 13:23:43
What do you consider a new project? The last considerable piece of software(ZCM) they have built from the ground up uses Java, at least at the interface level. Their teaming product, from the sitescape acquisition, is heavily built with java. They're working on a new version now and I have yet to hear anything about coding the whole thing in mono.
Anything they have to do with Mono is easily dwarfed by their use of java over the past decade. Your sentiment that Novell is somehow against Java seems to go against the facts. Sorry.
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-29 13:54:44
Ian
2008-12-29 14:14:21
CEO bickering and Michael Meeks' frustrations with the way Sun operates OO.org doesn't directly translate into Novell dumping Java.
AlexH
2008-12-29 14:18:34
Roy Schestowitz
2008-12-29 14:31:01
I agree, it doesn't. But it does not bode well, either.