04.13.09
IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 12th, 2009 – Part 1
To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.
| tacone | you’re our partner, we know you’re good, you can do what you want on the system (’till you pay) | Apr 12 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| *trmanco has quit (“ERROR: crap-talking overflow – Aborting”) | Apr 12 00:03 | |
| MinceR | http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.c… | Apr 12 00:08 |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Do you want the source or the downconvert? | Apr 12 00:08 |
| *DaemonFC sends the downconvert | Apr 12 00:09 | |
| DaemonFC | don’t want to mail bomb anyone | Apr 12 00:09 |
| LOL at M$’s bar cancellation. Someone commented, ” I guarantee this is Kevin Turner’s doing. He once forced several Microsoft conferences to relocate from post-reconstruction New Orleans because he thought Microsoft should not be associated with such a sinful city.” | Apr 12 00:11 | |
| There’s nothing wrong with the city and most of the people in it. It’s the visitors that cause problems as they “let loose” of their puritanical selves. | Apr 12 00:12 | |
| *tacone observes a minute of silence for the troll tracker. anyone knows how did it end with the trial ? | Apr 12 00:12 | |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: can do either | Apr 12 00:14 |
| schestowitz | tacone: trial still goes on, I think | Apr 12 00:15 |
| schestowitz | BN holds a mirror of that blog | Apr 12 00:16 |
| tacone | wow ! | Apr 12 00:16 |
| tacone | really ? | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | Yup | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | We also have BillWatch | Apr 12 00:16 |
| tacone | i still can read it on google reader i guess | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | The sites no longer exist | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | The author offered it to me | Apr 12 00:16 |
| tacone | but i don’t know how much will it last on google. | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | RoyB | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | tacone: why not? | Apr 12 00:16 |
| schestowitz | Google hates patent trolls. | Apr 12 00:16 |
| tacone | why what ? | Apr 12 00:17 |
| schestowitz | Why would Google do anything? | Apr 12 00:17 |
| schestowitz | It’s not something Rick is liable for | Apr 12 00:17 |
| tacone | i mean it kept it in the cache of the reader | Apr 12 00:17 |
| schestowitz | If the trolls like Niro want to take it up with me, they have no Cisco to drag into it | Apr 12 00:17 |
| tacone | yes it’s still in the cache | Apr 12 00:18 |
| tacone | but i didn’t found any way to download it from the reader. | Apr 12 00:19 |
| tacone | where’s the mirror ? | Apr 12 00:19 |
| tacone | found | Apr 12 00:21 |
| tacone | great ! | Apr 12 00:22 |
| schestowitz |  |
Apr 12 00:23 |
| DaemonFC | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=… | Apr 12 00:24 |
| DaemonFC | my vid about Logitech and Windows 7 | Apr 12 00:24 |
| *oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 00:32 | |
| _Hicham_ | wb oiaohm | Apr 12 00:37 |
| _Hicham_ | how r u doing? | Apr 12 00:37 |
| *jumbo (n=uyj@static-71-250-235-53.nwrknj.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 00:38 | |
| DaemonFC | schestowitz: Thoughts? | Apr 12 00:38 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: will watch it in a moment. I’m finishing some links first (daily lump) | Apr 12 00:39 |
| *seller_liar (i=c90dc41b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5bd03b0b726e9ee4) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 00:46 | |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm is silent, weird | Apr 12 00:47 |
| seller_liar | I was thinking | Apr 12 00:47 |
| seller_liar | Novuel de Icaza compares GNU project with mono project | Apr 12 00:48 |
| seller_liar | This is wrong | Apr 12 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Talking to a friend _Hicham_ | Apr 12 00:48 |
| seller_liar | GNU Project is different to mono project | Apr 12 00:48 |
| seller_liar | The first difference is gnu project don t have a deal with AT&T | Apr 12 00:48 |
| seller_liar | GNU project reject patents sometimes | Apr 12 00:49 |
| seller_liar | for example gnu tar don t open z files | Apr 12 00:49 |
| seller_liar | z files use LZW algorithm | Apr 12 00:49 |
| _Hicham_ | schestowitz, since u r familiar with mono, what is the significance of the mono brand ( the picture containg some animal ) ? | Apr 12 00:49 |
| “free software” and “open source” are different movements | Apr 12 00:50 | |
| seller_liar | GNU project is open to everyone , mono project is not…. (for example , only novell and m$ know abou monolight documentation) | Apr 12 00:50 |
| seller_liar | GNU project uses alternative tecnologies , for example dot gnu don t use asp.net | Apr 12 00:51 |
| seller_liar | dot gnu promotes a different web-app server | Apr 12 00:51 |
| _Hicham_ | why use .NET? | Apr 12 00:51 |
| _Hicham_ | better stick with python | Apr 12 00:51 |
| oiaohm | Why use .net when we could copy apple. | Apr 12 00:51 |
| jumbo | python is interpreted | Apr 12 00:51 |
| oiaohm | And update gcc to produce universal bytecode. | Apr 12 00:52 |
| seller_liar | jumbo: but pypy can help in this case | Apr 12 00:52 |
| oiaohm | That on install gets converted to native binary. | Apr 12 00:52 |
| tacone | _Hicham_: mono is ‘monkey’ in some language. | Apr 12 00:52 |
| jumbo | it produces bytecode? | Apr 12 00:52 |
| MinceR | why not use LLVM or Parrot? | Apr 12 00:52 |
| seller_liar | pypy can convert to python to jvm ,clr , c, llvm | Apr 12 00:53 |
| oiaohm | You know apples platform netural binaries ie binarys for x86 or ppc jumbo | Apr 12 00:53 |
| oiaohm | All in one. | Apr 12 00:53 |
| oiaohm | They use a part built state. | Apr 12 00:53 |
| MinceR | afaik apple’s binaries just contain 2 binaries (1 for each arch) in 1 file | Apr 12 00:53 |
| tacone | jumbo: google as an ongoing project to speed up python as they did with js. | Apr 12 00:53 |
| MinceR | hardly innovative. | Apr 12 00:53 |
| seller_liar | but the big propblem of pypy is only python 2.4 | Apr 12 00:53 |
| MinceR | how much of PyPy is completed so far? | Apr 12 00:53 |
| seller_liar | but pypy in svn is usable in some cases | Apr 12 00:54 |
| _Hicham_ | I think python is better than .NET | Apr 12 00:54 |
| tacone | pypy has not great future imho | Apr 12 00:54 |
| oiaohm | Intel is now sending a team into gcc | Apr 12 00:54 |
| seller_liar | MinceR: I don t know ,I don t have tried top run django in pypy | Apr 12 00:54 |
| oiaohm | After the sort out work intel did on X11 it going to be interesting. | Apr 12 00:54 |
| MinceR | afaik google wants to port python to LLVM or something | Apr 12 00:54 |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_: the Mono brand is not strong | Apr 12 00:55 |
| schestowitz | many linux people hate ot | Apr 12 00:55 |
| schestowitz | *it | Apr 12 00:55 |
| MinceR | gn | Apr 12 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | I don’t see the utility of .NET in Linux | Apr 12 00:55 |
| tacone | http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/03/goog… | Apr 12 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | at all | Apr 12 00:55 |
| _Hicham_ | python is a great language | Apr 12 00:56 |
| _Hicham_ | easy to learn | Apr 12 00:56 |
| MinceR | tacone: that’s the one | Apr 12 00:56 |
| tacone | MinceR: i’m the one  |
Apr 12 00:56 |
| _Hicham_ | and Google uses it a lot | Apr 12 00:56 |
| MinceR | whatever, Mr. Anderson. | Apr 12 00:56 |
| tacone | and that could help avoiding .net to spread. | Apr 12 00:56 |
| seller_liar | I know Hicham,but novell enforces people to use mono apps and IDEs | Apr 12 00:56 |
| tacone | i just looked at googleupdate code (win only) and it’s not c# | Apr 12 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck C# | Apr 12 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck .NET | Apr 12 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck Mono | Apr 12 00:57 |
| _Hicham_ | vive Python | Apr 12 00:58 |
| tacone | schestowitz: novell took on mono before ms deal | Apr 12 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | novell is just an open whore | Apr 12 00:58 |
| tacone | were they already poisoned or was it a good will attempt ? | Apr 12 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | tacone : they have been paid secretly … | Apr 12 00:58 |
| oiaohm | The company that had mono had other great techs. | Apr 12 00:58 |
| _Hicham_ | that was the prostitution time | Apr 12 00:58 |
| oiaohm | That novell wanted. | Apr 12 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Novell really did not buy Mono. | Apr 12 00:59 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : Mono was bought? | Apr 12 00:59 |
| MinceR | it was Ximian. what did Ximian have that novell wanted? | Apr 12 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Before MS getting involved with Novell some of the developer of Mono though it was going to be droped by Novell. | Apr 12 00:59 |
| tacone | well, copyright can be bought, after all | Apr 12 00:59 |
| seller_liar | Why miguel is so obssesive for use m$ tecnologies? | Apr 12 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Ximian run a lot of projects. | Apr 12 01:00 |
| tacone | apple bought their unix printing system | Apr 12 01:00 |
| seller_liar | seller_liar: Miguel love relationship with microsoft is before novell | Apr 12 01:00 |
| tacone | seller_liar: he’s an evangelist imho | Apr 12 01:00 |
| seller_liar | Miguel love relationship with microsoft is before novell | Apr 12 01:00 |
| _Hicham_ | Miguel is having a great time in Redmond | Apr 12 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Ximian Connector and Red Carpet were the two major things Novell were after. | Apr 12 01:01 |
| seller_liar | yes because Miguel is exchanging a lot of confidential documents about mono and monolight | Apr 12 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Red Carpet is what the opensuse build system is based off. | Apr 12 01:01 |
| oiaohm | So yes a very important bit of tech to get. | Apr 12 01:02 |
| seller_liar | miguel is stupid .He needs to learn about mexican people | Apr 12 01:02 |
| seller_liar | Mexican people(Icaza) is abused by american people (Bill gates) | Apr 12 01:03 |
| seller_liar | The good plan to prevent mono on gnome is to port all apps to python and /or C++ | Apr 12 01:04 |
| _Hicham_ | there is no great mono dependencies yet | Apr 12 01:05 |
| schestowitz | It seems like glyn moody had an effect on the OSI already: http://opensource.org/node/421 | Apr 12 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Don’t forget Vala | Apr 12 01:05 |
| seller_liar | but people uses apps based on mono | Apr 12 01:05 |
| seller_liar | and this creates dependency for mono apps | Apr 12 01:05 |
| oiaohm | They are reducing. | Apr 12 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Simple problem mono applications are slow. | Apr 12 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Users normally change to something else that has performance. | Apr 12 01:06 |
| silentivm | yep | Apr 12 01:06 |
| _Hicham_ | tomboy is being rewritten in C++ | Apr 12 01:06 |
| silentivm | I dumped Mono apps because of speed | Apr 12 01:06 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: but miguel and novell is enhacing mono speed | Apr 12 01:06 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: We dont wait! | Apr 12 01:06 |
| oiaohm | So is the gcc complier. | Apr 12 01:06 |
| tacone | speed is not important for many applications | Apr 12 01:06 |
| _Hicham_ | banshee is just a copy of rhythmbox | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | it’s not bad, eitgher | Apr 12 01:07 |
| tacone | the future of the desktop lies in scripting. | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | BTW, Novell is promoting the notion of Mono being fast | Apr 12 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Mono also is really heavy on memory. | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | Its employees bash Java in their blog | Apr 12 01:07 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: we need to port banshee because rhytmbox is not developed anymore | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | They compare Mono in self-flattering ways | Apr 12 01:07 |
| tacone | memory footprint is bad even nowadays. | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | Lies, dman lies, and you know the rest… | Apr 12 01:07 |
| schestowitz | seller_liar: why port? | Apr 12 01:08 |
| schestowitz | Put it in the latar | Apr 12 01:08 |
| schestowitz | *altar | Apr 12 01:08 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: no | Apr 12 01:08 |
| schestowitz | There are good music players already | Apr 12 01:08 |
| *silentivm has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) | Apr 12 01:08 | |
| schestowitz | Novell will purposely package Mono stuff | Apr 12 01:08 |
| seller_liar | seller_liar: banshee have a good codebase and features | Apr 12 01:08 |
| schestowitz | it’s an simplicity obligation to MSicaza to ship patent traps | Apr 12 01:08 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : features? | Apr 12 01:08 |
| seller_liar | schestowitz: And we don t need to write from scratch | Apr 12 01:08 |
| schestowitz | And to boost .NET in devs’ minds, spread the MS formats, etc,. | Apr 12 01:09 |
| _Hicham_ | what features are u talking about? | Apr 12 01:09 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: media player and good interface | Apr 12 01:09 |
| MinceR | well, some people spread the idea of Mono being fast, other people spread the idea of Java being fast.  |
Apr 12 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : rhythmbox is actively developed | Apr 12 01:10 |
| oiaohm | http://www.getsongbird.com/ << So never found this seller_liar | Apr 12 01:10 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/rhythmbox/ | Apr 12 01:10 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: But XUL is not a dependency of gnome | Apr 12 01:10 |
| oiaohm | rhytmbox has been passed by in many ways. | Apr 12 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Why does a media player need dependancy on gnome. | Apr 12 01:10 |
| oiaohm | It don’t it is a media player. | Apr 12 01:11 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: Rhythmbox development is very slow | Apr 12 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : participate to it | Apr 12 01:11 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: I know ,but gnome devs needs a real alternative using gtk interface | Apr 12 01:11 |
| _Hicham_ | that is how open source goes | Apr 12 01:11 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: I ‘m not a experienced code and I like Java , not c | Apr 12 01:11 |
| oiaohm | End users don’t seller_liar | Apr 12 01:12 |
| oiaohm | It don’t perform they don’t use. | Apr 12 01:12 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But , for example , ubuntu includes a player by default | Apr 12 01:12 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Rhythmbox is dying and the good candidate is banshee | Apr 12 01:12 |
| _Hicham_ | fuck banshee | Apr 12 01:13 |
| DaemonFC | http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2… | Apr 12 01:13 |
| oiaohm | banshee suxs. | Apr 12 01:13 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But I don like banshee | Apr 12 01:13 |
| oiaohm | There are more than enough candidates to replace Rhythmbox | Apr 12 01:13 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Exaile is a good candidate ,but it’s very immature | Apr 12 01:13 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Gtk ones? | Apr 12 01:13 |
| oiaohm | Really gnome developers really need to ask if they really do need a media player. | Apr 12 01:14 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Yes because people is listening all the times | Apr 12 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | there is already rhythmbox | Apr 12 01:14 |
| _Hicham_ | totem | Apr 12 01:14 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: People uses Mobiles devices a lot | Apr 12 01:14 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: yes ,but gnome devs to put more and more features all the time | Apr 12 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Mobile devices you want something that peforms. | Apr 12 01:15 |
| tacone | it’s not immature. is crashy. | Apr 12 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Modile devices are normally low on ram and resources and cannot afford disk thashing. | Apr 12 01:15 |
| oiaohm | So there battery lasts. | Apr 12 01:16 |
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| oiaohm | Sorry .net + mobile is a invalid argument. | Apr 12 01:16 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: No | Apr 12 01:16 |
| *PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 01:16 | |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: People uses sound players only to import songs from mobile devices | Apr 12 01:16 |
| Balrog_ | java + mobile makes more sense | Apr 12 01:17 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: People don t install banshee in your players | Apr 12 01:17 |
| oiaohm | More players these days have Linux bases. | Apr 12 01:17 |
| seller_liar | But , I don t like banshee ,I like atunes ,jajuk ,songbird, amarok and exaile | Apr 12 01:17 |
| seller_liar | Atunes and Jajuk are java-swing based , but the look-n-fell is not so good like songbird | Apr 12 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | better stick with mozilla | Apr 12 01:18 |
| oiaohm | songbird could be enbeded in a device. | Apr 12 01:18 |
| _Hicham_ | what is wrong with songbird? | Apr 12 01:18 |
| oiaohm | Simple fact after the tomtom case device makers are not going to want to touch .net with a ten foot pole. | Apr 12 01:19 |
| “People uses sound players only to import songs from mobile devices” | Apr 12 01:19 | |
| really? | Apr 12 01:19 | |
| tacone | ? | Apr 12 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | great citation | Apr 12 01:19 |
| _Hicham_ | quote | Apr 12 01:19 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: songbird uses XUL ,not gtk , is memory hunger | Apr 12 01:20 |
| *Balrog_ has quit (“bye”) | Apr 12 01:20 | |
| the sellar_liar said it | Apr 12 01:20 | |
| oiaohm | Main reason MS just has proved there open promise is not with crap. | Apr 12 01:20 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : XUL is a shared component in GNOME | Apr 12 01:20 |
| I thought it was crazy, but what do I know? | Apr 12 01:20 | |
| oiaohm | XUL in firefox uses GTK. | Apr 12 01:20 |
| seller_liar | But xul is not included in gnome by default | Apr 12 01:21 |
| oiaohm | But in embeded devices it can go direct. | Apr 12 01:21 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : it is | Apr 12 01:21 |
| seller_liar | is not default binding for gnome | Apr 12 01:21 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : it is used by yelp | Apr 12 01:21 |
| seller_liar | only default bindings are , py-gtk, gtk# , gtkmm, gtk and java-gnome | Apr 12 01:21 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : yelp is gnome help system | Apr 12 01:21 |
| oiaohm | XUL is not a binding. | Apr 12 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Its a webengine rendering feature. | Apr 12 01:22 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: the interface | Apr 12 01:22 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 12 01:22 |
| seller_liar | gnome does not use xul interface | Apr 12 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Gnome does in places. | Apr 12 01:22 |
| oiaohm | yelp is a big one. | Apr 12 01:22 |
| _Hicham_ | yelp for example | Apr 12 01:22 |
| seller_liar | for rendering help pages , not intefac | Apr 12 01:23 |
| oiaohm | XUL you can embed and operate from a webpage. | Apr 12 01:23 |
| oiaohm | That is what it was desiged to do. | Apr 12 01:23 |
| oiaohm | You don’t need extra binding other than the GTK to html bindings. | Apr 12 01:24 |
| seller_liar | but gnome devs only uses gtk and nothing more | Apr 12 01:24 |
| oiaohm | To use it. | Apr 12 01:24 |
| oiaohm | XUL is included in the GTK bindings. | Apr 12 01:24 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : do u use firefox? | Apr 12 01:24 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But it ‘s not for interface | Apr 12 01:24 |
| seller_liar | yes | Apr 12 01:24 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : it is pure XUL | Apr 12 01:25 |
| seller_liar | _Hicham_: it’s not gtk | Apr 12 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : what is not gtk? | Apr 12 01:25 |
| oiaohm | Do GTK developers use Glade. | Apr 12 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | yes | Apr 12 01:25 |
| seller_liar | xul is not gtk | Apr 12 01:25 |
| _Hicham_ | xul is not gtk | Apr 12 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Sorry to say XUL and Glade scripts are equal. | Apr 12 01:26 |
| seller_liar | gnome devs uses only gtk interface | Apr 12 01:26 |
| oiaohm | XUL gets translated on fly into GTK interfaces. | Apr 12 01:26 |
| seller_liar | It’s very hard to convince gnome devs to use songbird by default | Apr 12 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Glade gets translated on fly into GTK interfaces. | Apr 12 01:26 |
| tacone | on the fly is the key | Apr 12 01:26 |
| _Hicham_ | sellar_liar : do not use firefox and thunderbird then | Apr 12 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Most GTK applications use Glade. | Apr 12 01:27 |
| _Hicham_ | glade made developing GUIs easy | Apr 12 01:27 |
| *silentivm (n=renan@189.58.200.161.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 01:27 | |
| seller_liar | the big problem is to find a good alternative to rhythmbox | Apr 12 01:27 |
| oiaohm | Mozilla is also working on a XUL to GTK code translator. | Apr 12 01:28 |
| oiaohm | For performance reasons. | Apr 12 01:28 |
| oiaohm | So really XUL in time becomes nothing more than Glade with a different design. | Apr 12 01:28 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : that would be really great | Apr 12 01:28 |
| oiaohm | This is why the argement against XUL is so much crap. | Apr 12 01:29 |
| *Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-68-238-235-164.phil.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Apr 12 01:29 | |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: I’m not againt XUL.I like XUL and mozilla et al | Apr 12 01:29 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But is very hard to convinve gnome devs to use XUL by default | Apr 12 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Big thing gnome developers hate abotu XUL is it not locked to there platform. | Apr 12 01:30 |
| Balrog_ | but isn’t Qt not locked to any particular platform? | Apr 12 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Qt is a platform. | Apr 12 01:31 |
| Balrog_ | hm. | Apr 12 01:31 |
| seller_liar | I know , I know , But the real solution is help exaile | Apr 12 01:32 |
| oiaohm | exaile need google work on python. | Apr 12 01:32 |
| seller_liar | Exaile promotes python , pygtk and strenghens gnome api | Apr 12 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Until that is fixed up it will suck. | Apr 12 01:32 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: We can try to port exaile to pypy | Apr 12 01:32 |
| seller_liar | pypy is fast | Apr 12 01:33 |
| oiaohm | pypy is slow compared to what google is planing. | Apr 12 01:33 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: but is fast compared to cpython | Apr 12 01:33 |
| seller_liar | and produces native code too | Apr 12 01:33 |
| oiaohm | python running at basically native speed. | Apr 12 01:33 |
| oiaohm | To be correct faster than current day gcc. | Apr 12 01:33 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But google project in early stage .It takes 1 or 2 years to be usable | Apr 12 01:34 |
| oiaohm | Run pypy code out put though llvm | Apr 12 01:34 |
| tacone | they have js experience on their shoulders though. | Apr 12 01:34 |
| oiaohm | Not that long. | Apr 12 01:34 |
| oiaohm | google is reusing lots of high performance code. | Apr 12 01:35 |
| tacone | i guess they’re doing the same thing they did with v8 | Apr 12 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 12 01:35 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But we need urgent solution to remove mono!We cannot wait for google | Apr 12 01:35 |
| tacone | lol | Apr 12 01:35 |
| tacone | like a tomboy port ? | Apr 12 01:36 |
| tacone | mono is here to stay. we can just remove it from gnome. | Apr 12 01:36 |
| oiaohm | LOL | Apr 12 01:36 |
| seller_liar | Yes , but I don like c++.I Think python is better .But at the same time ,C++ was a good choice because of C# similarity | Apr 12 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Complete vala | Apr 12 01:36 |
| tacone | pft | Apr 12 01:37 |
| tacone | vala is not a threat to mono. | Apr 12 01:37 |
| oiaohm | That gives you a simple platform to migrate C# code to. | Apr 12 01:37 |
| oiaohm | It is a threat tacone | Apr 12 01:37 |
| tacone | we’ll see | Apr 12 01:37 |
| oiaohm | It reduced ammount of work to port out. | Apr 12 01:37 |
| tacone | it can help but that’s not a threat. | Apr 12 01:38 |
| tacone | mono is not just linux. | Apr 12 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Neither does Vala have to be. | Apr 12 01:38 |
| seller_liar | the good solution is….python | Apr 12 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Vala can operate everywhere GTK can. | Apr 12 01:38 |
| tacone | yes, but there’s no interest to have vala anywhere else. | Apr 12 01:38 |
| tacone | seller_liar: +1 | Apr 12 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Mono applications for gnome use GTK. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | but anyways i repeat, i think mono is here to stay. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| oiaohm | So really there is no point. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| seller_liar | tacone: I know , but we can reduce the dependency | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | mono is getting used to make windows games | Apr 12 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Its go no more cross platform nature than GTK. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | iphone games | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | and so on. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| oiaohm | so not following blender tacone | Apr 12 01:39 |
| seller_liar | tacone: we can promote dot gnu | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | sure we can remove it from gnome. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| tacone | at least that. | Apr 12 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Thank you MS for sueing tomtom. | Apr 12 01:40 |
| seller_liar | twitter: we can help dot gnu project, | Apr 12 01:40 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: good video | Apr 12 01:40 |
| tacone | guys i’m going to bed | Apr 12 01:40 |
| tacone | have a good easter. | Apr 12 01:40 |
| oiaohm | So a far about 3 of those .net producing game companines are now looking at blender. | Apr 12 01:40 |
| seller_liar | tacone: we can help dot gnu project | Apr 12 01:40 |
| oiaohm | MS fall out is incoming. | Apr 12 01:40 |
| tacone | ??? | Apr 12 01:40 |
| tacone | what’s the difference between dotgnu and mono ? | Apr 12 01:41 |
| oiaohm | Licence tacone | Apr 12 01:41 |
| oiaohm | And funtionality | Apr 12 01:41 |
| tacone | 3? | Apr 12 01:41 |
| seller_liar | tacone: no | Apr 12 01:41 |
| tacone | so what ? | Apr 12 01:41 |
| seller_liar | dot gnu don t have a deal with microsoft | Apr 12 01:41 |
| seller_liar | dot gnu is more open to people than monolight | Apr 12 01:42 |
| tacone | no one has to deal with microsoft | Apr 12 01:42 |
| seller_liar | dot gnu is veryu confident with fsf | Apr 12 01:42 |
| tacone | you can take mono source everytime. | Apr 12 01:42 |
| tacone | the issue is patents. | Apr 12 01:42 |
| oiaohm | Problem here .net game companies are starting to work out its a problem. | Apr 12 01:42 |
| tacone | that issue applies to dotgnu as mono. | Apr 12 01:42 |
| seller_liar | dot gnu don t use asp.net ,altough it can run asp.net | Apr 12 01:42 |
| tacone | going to bed | Apr 12 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Blender game engine is being improved to the point that you will be able to create a fully funtional 3d game without a single line of code. | Apr 12 01:43 |
| tacone | good bye | Apr 12 01:43 |
| seller_liar | bye | Apr 12 01:43 |
| later | Apr 12 01:43 | |
| *tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has left #boycottnovell (“ERROR: crap-talking overflow – Aborting.”) | Apr 12 01:43 | |
| oiaohm | Flow chart programming is more compadible with artists. | Apr 12 01:43 |
| seller_liar | for destroying microsoft plans ,we need plan projects | Apr 12 01:46 |
| seller_liar | Roy is an analyst , but we need projectists | Apr 12 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Apr 12 01:46 |
| seller_liar | why? | Apr 12 01:46 |
| oiaohm | http://blenderartists.org/forum/sho… Blender is basically going to tech jump. | Apr 12 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Reason commerical companies worked out the problem. | Apr 12 01:47 |
| oiaohm | So now improving something not .net to do there job. | Apr 12 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Blender also contains a python engine. | Apr 12 01:47 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: a good app which I like is art of illusion | Apr 12 01:48 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: It uses a java engine | Apr 12 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Blenders core is c++ | Apr 12 01:48 |
| seller_liar | http://www.artofillusion.org/ | Apr 12 01:48 |
| oiaohm | Not a game engine. | Apr 12 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Blender is a combination game engine editor. | Apr 12 01:49 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: No it’s not | Apr 12 01:49 |
| oiaohm | It was first designed by a game company before it went opensource. | Apr 12 01:50 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Game engine are purely in c and c++ | Apr 12 01:50 |
| oiaohm | So is benders core engine. | Apr 12 01:50 |
| seller_liar | there are some java game engines like monkeyengine | Apr 12 01:50 |
| oiaohm | You use the same engine in blender to edit in as final game. | Apr 12 01:50 |
| oiaohm | So its true what you see what you get game production. | Apr 12 01:51 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Yes ,but I think people prefer to use another engine | Apr 12 01:51 |
| oiaohm | For rapid development no. | Apr 12 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Closer the engine and editor is intergrated the better. | Apr 12 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Blender is also a 3d movie prodution tool. So you cut seen videos can be done in it. | Apr 12 01:52 |
| oiaohm | Blenders interface will be modernised its 3d engine will be modernised and we have MS to thank for the 3d engine update from using tomtom. | Apr 12 01:53 |
| oiaohm | using/sueing | Apr 12 01:53 |
| oiaohm | The key is getting commerical companies in that can afford to pay full time programs to break mono hold. | Apr 12 01:54 |
| seller_liar | The only way to destroy these attacks is destroying microsoft | Apr 12 01:54 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 12 01:54 |
| oiaohm | Novell has a lot of power because it provides large numbers of full time programmers to mono. | Apr 12 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Then those programmers work in gnome and other projects. | Apr 12 01:55 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Novell prefers to invest in mono instead of ati drivers | Apr 12 01:55 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: the only way is porting mono apps to python! | Apr 12 01:55 |
| oiaohm | http://amarok.kde.org/ kontact and the like are backed by commerical companies. | Apr 12 01:56 |
| oiaohm | So novell programmers cannot really attack them. | Apr 12 01:56 |
| oiaohm | python is pointless. | Apr 12 01:57 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm:Microsoft can attack for novell | Apr 12 01:57 |
| oiaohm | mono can run python. | Apr 12 01:57 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Of course ,It’ s not c | Apr 12 01:57 |
| oiaohm | ironpython. | Apr 12 01:57 |
| oiaohm | So novell developers can try to pull any code in python back to Mono. | Apr 12 01:58 |
| seller_liar | I know , but gnome devs don t use ipython | Apr 12 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Getting projects strong. | Apr 12 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Supported | Apr 12 01:58 |
| seller_liar | but the difference is ,we can remove ipython and use python without the need the change the code | Apr 12 01:58 |
| oiaohm | and out of reach is the true solution. | Apr 12 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Strong depends on commerical support. | Apr 12 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Amarok has a few full time coders of there own due to commerical support. | Apr 12 01:59 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm:Features is not everything, ethics is more than power | Apr 12 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | Novell contributes to GNOME | Apr 12 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | there is Evolution | Apr 12 01:59 |
| _Hicham_ | NetworkManager | Apr 12 02:00 |
| seller_liar | And ,we create mono-less ditros | Apr 12 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | commercial support is great | Apr 12 02:00 |
| oiaohm | No matter how good ethics are if you don’t have the programmers to maintain the code. | Apr 12 02:00 |
| _Hicham_ | the RedHat way !!! | Apr 12 02:00 |
| oiaohm | The program will bitrot and die. | Apr 12 02:00 |
| oiaohm | That is what has happen to rythmbox | Apr 12 02:01 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: If people don t have interest , we don t need to code | Apr 12 02:01 |
| _Hicham_ | I like how RedHat contributes to Linux | Apr 12 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Interest + Time seller_liar | Apr 12 02:01 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Rythmbox lacks of independent coders , we don t need support from companies | Apr 12 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Commerical support allows coders with interest to work full time on the projects. | Apr 12 02:02 |
| schestowitz | This is a recommended talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGM4be… | Apr 12 02:02 |
| oiaohm | So making project strong from attack. | Apr 12 02:02 |
| oiaohm | The more companies you have in the mix the better. | Apr 12 02:02 |
| oiaohm | So you don’t end up with Novell and Gnome were they are the dominate full time programmer provider. | Apr 12 02:03 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Are you sure? | Apr 12 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Basically gnome is not heathly from a support side. This lead to the heavy mono code base. | Apr 12 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Lead of Mono was the lead of the Gnome project at one point seller_liar | Apr 12 02:04 |
| _Hicham_ | oiaohm : GNOME is hosted by RedHat | Apr 12 02:04 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Novuel | Apr 12 02:04 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: The problem of rythmbox is the use of a bad language to code a player | Apr 12 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Look at the code history of rythmbox | Apr 12 02:06 |
| oiaohm | How many full time coders have it had. | Apr 12 02:06 |
| oiaohm | You need them to keep good quality code. | Apr 12 02:06 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: And the second : rhythmbox authors is not capable to attract more people | Apr 12 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Yep bit rotting project. | Apr 12 02:07 |
| seller_liar | the project page is sooo ugly | Apr 12 02:07 |
| seller_liar | and outdated | Apr 12 02:07 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 12 02:07 |
| oiaohm | bit rot | Apr 12 02:07 |
| seller_liar | and the use of c language for a player is a not good thing | Apr 12 02:08 |
| oiaohm | You need commericals to prevent taht. | Apr 12 02:08 |
| seller_liar | we need more documentation to help beginner coders to code | Apr 12 02:08 |
| seller_liar | not ewveryone know to program | Apr 12 02:08 |
| seller_liar | documentation is more important than features | Apr 12 02:09 |
| oiaohm | Where does good documentation come from. | Apr 12 02:09 |
| oiaohm | Normally commericals. | Apr 12 02:09 |
| seller_liar | and c languafe don t help coders | Apr 12 02:09 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: no | Apr 12 02:09 |
| seller_liar | authors can spend time | Apr 12 02:09 |
| seller_liar | authors only thinks in features, but not in documentation | Apr 12 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Because the commerical coders document there code. | Apr 12 02:10 |
| oiaohm | very well because they are required to. | Apr 12 02:10 |
| seller_liar | everyone with good skill can document | Apr 12 02:10 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Not all the time | Apr 12 02:10 |
| oiaohm | If the source code is well documented. | Apr 12 02:10 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Some features can posponed | Apr 12 02:10 |
| oiaohm | Creating good documents on top of that is simpler. | Apr 12 02:11 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Not only source code ,but we need to explain the archictecture, description of algorithms and a lot more | Apr 12 02:11 |
| oiaohm | Yes | Apr 12 02:11 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: For me doxygen docs helps nothing! | Apr 12 02:11 |
| oiaohm | blender works on proposals system. | Apr 12 02:11 |
| oiaohm | So to add features you have to write proposals. | Apr 12 02:12 |
| oiaohm | That describe what you are doing. | Apr 12 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Blender was a commerical designed program and has ran like one after it changed to open source. | Apr 12 02:12 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: but we need to explain the algorithms in a easy way | Apr 12 02:12 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: a good startup is to explain EVERY commit done, in a easy language | Apr 12 02:13 |
| seller_liar | and after join all commits descriptions in a easy book | Apr 12 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel also runs very well. | Apr 12 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Since it taken on the commerical ways. | Apr 12 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Non descriptive commits don’t get to enter the Linux kernel. | Apr 12 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Not creating user documenation also equals patch being rejected. | Apr 12 02:14 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Yes , but apart off all discussion | Apr 12 02:14 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Apr 12 02:14 |
| DaemonFC | “The reason they’re trying to push Windows 7 out is cause there’s a lot of issues with Vista, and uhhh, people don’t like Vista” – Logitech Support | Apr 12 02:14 |
| DaemonFC | |
Apr 12 02:14 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: We need to explain for all society what is important is ethics not features | Apr 12 02:15 |
| oiaohm | That only started happening in Linux after Linus become a full time paid programmer to look after linux. | Apr 12 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Part time maintainers really don’t have the time to enforce the rules effectively. | Apr 12 02:15 |
| seller_liar | I prefer a free software than powerfulk proprietary software | Apr 12 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Free software needs commerical support to function well. | Apr 12 02:16 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: No , | Apr 12 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Does not need to go propriertaty. | Apr 12 02:16 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Free software SOMETIMES needs commercial support to fight proprietary software | Apr 12 02:17 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 12 02:17 |
| schestowitz | Ok, I’m done for now… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uG… | Apr 12 02:17 |
| oiaohm | it a maintainership issue | Apr 12 02:17 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: No | Apr 12 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Without full time maintainers | Apr 12 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Code quality will degrade. | Apr 12 02:17 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Maintenance is not a problem | Apr 12 02:17 |
| schestowitz | How prophetic for 2004.. he was right and now it shows a lot better | Apr 12 02:17 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Features are the problem , | Apr 12 02:18 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Maintenance is manageable using bugzilla and other tools | Apr 12 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Adding features without maintenance ends up without a program that works. | Apr 12 02:18 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: If coders don t have time … | Apr 12 02:18 |
| oiaohm | commerical support cures the time issue. | Apr 12 02:19 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Is always better a software which works than bugged software | Apr 12 02:19 |
| oiaohm | You can run a bugzilla but if you have no full time coders to target complex problems. | Apr 12 02:19 |
| oiaohm | complex problems will remain unfixed for extreamly long times. | Apr 12 02:20 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: But the bugs are finite , and needs only a coder | Apr 12 02:20 |
| oiaohm | So a project with full time coders will be able to provide more features look better and basiclaly kill the project. | Apr 12 02:20 |
| oiaohm | That is what has happened to rythmbox vs banshee | Apr 12 02:21 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: Free software need full time coders for fight proprietary software | Apr 12 02:21 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 12 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Free software needs full time coders to stay alive even against other open source. | Apr 12 02:21 |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: If windows media player and other proprietary players don t exist,then | Apr 12 02:21 |
| free software can have full time coders, why not? | Apr 12 02:21 | |
| seller_liar | people don t need more and more features | Apr 12 02:21 |
| RMS worked as full time as he could | Apr 12 02:22 | |
| oiaohm | Open source media players would compete with each other. | Apr 12 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Proprietray is not requred at all. | Apr 12 02:22 |
| schestowitz | gn | Apr 12 02:22 |
| free software does not compete so much as it solves separate goals | Apr 12 02:22 | |
| gn | Apr 12 02:22 | |
| seller_liar | people wants more and more features because these people look good features in proprietarey players and people want the same in opensource players | Apr 12 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Same as between open source vs open soruce | Apr 12 02:23 |
| lol, features move from free to non free, not the other way around | Apr 12 02:23 | |
| seller_liar | proprietary players forces features in free software | Apr 12 02:23 |
| oiaohm | People use ammork then want some of ammork features in other players. | Apr 12 02:23 |
| seller_liar | no | Apr 12 02:23 |
| Amarok has been ahead of the field for years | Apr 12 02:23 | |
| seller_liar | twitter: features like stupid install shield have started in monopolysoft | Apr 12 02:23 |
| oiaohm | All software competes with everything in it class. | Apr 12 02:23 |
| install shield? who needs that? | Apr 12 02:24 | |
| seller_liar | twitter: The amarok case is to destroy windows media player | Apr 12 02:24 |
| oiaohm | There is no real competition divide between proprietarey and open soruce. | Apr 12 02:24 |
| seller_liar | twitter: Amarok have won the batlle and more , amarok surpassed the enemy | Apr 12 02:24 |
| ? Amarok is for playing media | Apr 12 02:24 | |
| seller_liar | twitter: windows media player too | Apr 12 02:24 |
| oiaohm | For project to stay alive they have to wake up they are not above rules of software development just by being open source. | Apr 12 02:25 |
| Windows media player is for extracting money from users, musicians and recording companies. Different goals, different results. The only thing WMP has in common with free software is that it sometimes plays music | Apr 12 02:25 | |
| seller_liar | oiaohm: yes , but the real problem in opensource is the features , not mainteinance | Apr 12 02:25 |
| free software is making it’s own rules | Apr 12 02:26 | |
| oiaohm | Features and mainteinance is linked. | Apr 12 02:26 |
| _Hicham_ | gn | Apr 12 02:26 |
