IRC: #boycottnovell @ Techrights IRC Network: Sunday, December 19, 2021

*Topic for #boycottnovell is: TechRights.org | Channel #boycottnovell for http://TechRights.org | Free Software Sentry – watching and reporting maneuvers of those who oppose software freedom :: please also join channels #techrights and #boycottnovell-social

*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz!~roy@haii6za73zabc.irc at Tue Jun 1 20:22:10 2021

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*irc.techrights.org sets mode +a #boycottnovell MinceR

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schestowitz-TR2

merging in the new export stats script

Dec 19 07:09

Techrights-sec2

done

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Techrights-sec2

we replacind a router for the server some hours ago, so you might see a short server disconnection, inc. for IRC

Dec 19 07:11

schestowitz__[TR]

> I’m reaching out to Alexis Ohanian with my story.

Dec 19 07:25

schestowitz__[TR]

Dec 19 07:25

schestowitz__[TR]

> Apparently he has been collaborating with Nat on several venture capital

Dec 19 07:25

schestowitz__[TR]

> projects.

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

> He is very vocal publicly about being a feminist. I hope this will

schestowitz__[TR]

> dissuade him from working with Nat in the future.

schestowitz__[TR]

Very good.

schestowitz__[TR]

All these people (inc. de Icaza) are very closely connected since 20+ years ago.

schestowitz__[TR]

Like I said, the harm they're done to advance their careers isn't forgettable.

schestowitz__[TR]

15 years ago I was on the radio (US) with Miguel de Icaza when he was promoting Microsoft's lock-in openly and shamelessly.

schestowitz__[TR]

They're users. These people are users. They lack empathy.

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2021/12/opinion-can-ai-system-be-inventor.html?showComment=1639419212496#c8846281535954961753

Techrights-sec2

ack

Dec 19 07:32

Techrights-sec2

I would paint them even less positively than that.

Dec 19 07:32

Techrights-sec2

The damage to FOSS wasn't a side effect, it was an apparent goal of theirs

Dec 19 07:32

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Techrights-sec2

cp .git/hooks/pre-commit.sample .git/hooks/pre-commit

Dec 19 08:29

schestowitz-TR2

where?

Dec 19 08:29

Techrights-sec2

inside the top Git directory. It does a few housekeeping tasks before allowing

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Techrights-sec2

the commit to take place. It's rather barebones but more can be added.

Dec 19 08:31

Techrights-sec2

A useful part with the sample file is the complaint about trailing whitespace.

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schestowitz-TR2

done

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Techrights-sec2

some useful XPath changes are buried in the wave of commits

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Techrights-sec2

36c452edc8ecfc765b494b822c5c01eefbb61a79

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Techrights-sec2

c7975c7a5b53f057947b5ca5aac38c3dd76028b4

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Techrights-sec2

and 67ed3fca71bc14115e6b52d950db7e4ee9efdb8c uses a hash instead of if-then

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Techrights-sec2

it's more efficient

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Techrights-sec2

and maybe easier to maintain

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schestowitz__[TR]

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-ipkitten.blogspot.com | [Opinion] Can an AI system be an inventor ? - The IPKat

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

AI is an interesting play field for legal scholars and it should stay at this!

schestowitz__[TR]

There is nothing intelligent in AI, but it is certainly purely artificial.

schestowitz__[TR]

Rather than to come up with nice legal theories, not to speak about sui-generis law for AI, it would be more intelligent for the legislator to push for full transparency, or at least explicability of AI systems.

schestowitz__[TR]

Without any knowledge of the correlation algorithm and as important the training data, nobody will be in the situation to assess whether the result of an AI system is acceptable or not!

schestowitz__[TR]

This is the real problem and any fancy theory whether an AI system can invent anything.

schestowitz__[TR]

By its mere essence, I claim, it cannot invent anything.

schestowitz__[TR]

Mr Thaler should get a first class diploma in PR and legal gobbledygook.

schestowitz__[TR]

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2021/12/opinion-can-ai-system-be-inventor.html?showComment=1639412232873#c7972586518215140438

schestowitz__[TR]

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-ipkitten.blogspot.com | [Opinion] Can an AI system be an inventor ? - The IPKat

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

It's all very well spouting Cogito ergo Sum, but perhaps it is better to take it in context. Immediately prior to that 3 word sound bite comes another, namely Dubio ergo Cogito (I doubt. Therefore I think.) Sure, we can debate all night whether a machine can "think". But i would prefer to follow a debate about whether a machine can 8or ever will) experience the agonies of doubt.

schestowitz__[TR]

Me, I much prefer the notion (borrowed from US law) that an "inventor" has to have "possession" of the claimed subject matter before the subject matter of the putative claim can be seen as a patentable invention. Who has "possession"? Not the machine but perhaps the human who assesses for patentability that which the machine delivers as its output?

schestowitz__[TR]

BTW: I really did enjoy (above) the spell-check correction of "burgeoning" to read "the bludgeoning legal literature". Perhaps the spell-check brain used by the good professors can see better than us humans, what chracteristics the legal literature exhibits?

schestowitz__[TR]

http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2021/12/the-spc-alphabet-are-combination.html?showComment=1639393227963#c4100763144587942997

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Dec 19 14:59

schestowitz__[TR]

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The SPC alphabet: Are combination product SPCs precluded by Article 3(a), (c) and/or (d)? - The IPKat

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

The new reference makes plain what has been evident for some time, namely that there is confusion and disharmony regarding the interpretations of the different subsections of Art 3. However, I am not sure whether asking the CJEU a question relating to one of the subsections of Art 3 is the best way to clear up all of the confusion.

schestowitz__[TR]

In cases such as Actavis I, Actavis II and Clonmel, the courts have essentially decided that the "product" is not what was stated on the SPC application. That is all very well, but what causes confusion is the fact that the courts have relied upon a specific subsection of Art 3 (whether Art 3(a) or Art 3(b)) to effectively re-write the definition of the "product". This then leaves room for doubt over whether the same definition of the "

schestowitz__[TR]

product" should be used for the purposes of assessing compliance with the other subsections of Art 3.

schestowitz__[TR]

What seems to me to be needed is a logical and consistent approach to determining the acceptable definition(s) of the "product". That is a question under Art 1(b).

schestowitz__[TR]

http://patentblog.kluweriplaw.com/2021/12/14/epos-boards-of-appeal-to-move-back-to-munich/#comments

schestowitz__[TR]

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-patentblog.kluweriplaw.com | EPO's Boards of Appeal to Move Back to Munich - Kluwer Patent Blog

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

17 comments

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 14, 2021 AT 4:12 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

Thorsten, looking at the CSC’s comments upon CA 77/21, it seems that the “New ways of working” are all teleworking, including the possibility of mandatory teleworking.

schestowitz__[TR]

It is not clear to me why CA 77/21 is mentioned in the Joint Declaration. However, I rather suspect that it has a lot to do with a likely reduction in size of the office space allocated to the Boards. I would also not be surprised if CA 77/21 has led the President of the Boards of Appeal to make assumptions regarding the proportion of appeal oral proceedings that will be held by VICO (with possible “remote” participation of members of

schestowitz__[TR]

the Boards).

schestowitz__[TR]

If my suspicions are correct, then the planned move might only be feasible if, contrary to all reasonable expectations (in the light of G 1/21), Article 15a RPBA remains in force in unamended form. This raises the prospect that the promise of a move back to (central) Munich could, in the wrong hands, effectively be used as an “inducement” for members of Boards of Appeal to uphold Article 15a RPBA in its current form.

schestowitz__[TR]

Of course, I am not saying that there is any such skulduggery going on. However, such a possibility cannot be ruled out entirely unless and until the EPO publishes all of the relevant documents (namely, CA 77/21, the MoU between the two Presidents and, most importantly, the relative size of the office space that will be allocated to the Boards in the building Pschorr-Höfe 7). Given the vast number of important documents that the EPO does

schestowitz__[TR]

not make publicly available, I will not hold my breath waiting for anything on this point.

schestowitz__[TR]

Even more concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 14, 2021 AT 5:19 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

The MoU between the two presidents is in BOAC/12/19 mentioned in the Annual report of the BoA. In that case, its referred documents should be somewhere available on the BoA website.

schestowitz__[TR]

Otherwise, ask the press officers of the BoA:

schestowitz__[TR]

Nikolaus Obrovski

schestowitz__[TR]

Jeannine Hoppe

schestowitz__[TR]

Spokespersons of the Boards of Appeal of the European Patent Office

schestowitz__[TR]

boa-press@epo.org

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 14, 2021 AT 7:47 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

Whilst BOAC/12/19 should be on the BoA website, it appears that it is not. I wonder if the press officers would be prepared to provide a copy of CA 77/21 too?

schestowitz__[TR]

Extraneous Attorney

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 14, 2021 AT 4:31 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

Taxpayers’ and consumers’ money will therefore have been wasted on an epic scale, likely numbering in the millions of euros. Yet nothing will happen to the careers of anyone involved in making this decision. That’s the unaccountability of international organizations for you.

schestowitz__[TR]

@Concerned observer is right to mention that there may be a link with Article 15a RPBA. I’m inclined to believe that, in view of the reasoning set forth in G1/21, Article 15a RPBA is plainly ultra vires and therefore good as dead. But that’s assuming that the EBA sitting in another composition will not find another “dynamic interpretation” of the EPC…

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 14, 2021 AT 7:41 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

I would say that is now crystal clear that the EPO has no intention whatsoever of bringing the RPBA into line with the EBA’s ruling in G 1/21.

schestowitz__[TR]

In this respect, I suggest that you watch closely for “interesting” interpretations of G 1/21 (such as that in T 0245/18, as discussed in http://justpatentlaw.blogspot.com/2021/12/t-024518-art-15a-rpba-compatible-with.html).

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-justpatentlaw.blogspot.com | Just Patent Law Blog: T 0245/18 - Art. 15a RPBA compatible with the EPC

schestowitz__[TR]

It will also be important to keep a close eye on EPO proposals to extend (and excuses for extending) the applicability of provisions that mandate the use of VICO. I have no doubt that there will be some “interesting” developments on this front in the next 6 months or so, most likely using the pandemic as cover for effectively overriding the EBA’s ruling in G 1/21.

schestowitz__[TR]

Jacques Dors

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 15, 2021 AT 10:27 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

There is no seperation of powers anyway.

schestowitz__[TR]

There is recycling of people who worked for the EPO before, it is all the same blood.

schestowitz__[TR]

The Convention Watchdog

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 15, 2021 AT 10:57 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

Will Mr. Battistelli be made responsible for the damage resulting from the longest lasting lease contract (15 years) in the history of the EPO and the cost for adapting the Haar building to the needs of the Boards?

schestowitz__[TR]

Another Attorney

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 9:34 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

I agree with Extraneous Attorney. There is also no mention of the Orwellian “perception of independence” (CA/43/16) that served as the basis for the exile of the Boards in the new press release. Instead, it almost sounds like having Examiners in home office freed up space for the Boards the was previously occupied.

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 11:53 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

The reason given in 2016 for the move to Haar was an alleged desire to “reinforce among the parties to appeal procedures the feeling that they are appearing before an independent body as opposed to EPO examining and opposition divisions”.

schestowitz__[TR]

The move back to (central) Munich now confirms what any objective observer was always able to perceive, namely that the REAL motivation was to “punish” the Boards for having the temerity (in R 19/12) to point to flaws in the set-up of the EPO that gave rise to a justifiable fear of partiality in certain appeals.

schestowitz__[TR]

As has been reported on this blog (http://patentblog.kluweriplaw.com/2020/11/03/a-few-thoughts-on-trust-and-judicial-independence/), the flaw identified in R 19/12 is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to justifiable fears of partiality. It therefore speaks volumes that, in response to being alerted to serious problems with their governance structure, the EPO has either done nothing (eg in response to the articles cited in the above-

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-patentblog.kluweriplaw.com | A few thoughts on trust and judicial independence - Kluwer Patent Blog

schestowitz__[TR]

mentioned blog post), or has punished the messenger (by moving the Boards to Haar).

schestowitz__[TR]

Rather than be diminished by the move to Haar, justifiable fears of partiality have actually increased since 2016. Whilst the farcical conclusion to G 3/19 might be the most obvious manifestation of this effect, there are worrying signs of a gradual decrease in the number of members of the Boards of Appeal that are both willing and able to resist the will of the President of the EPO. The acid test on this point is likely to be how G 1/21

schestowitz__[TR]

is interpreted and implemented by various Boards of Appeal.

schestowitz__[TR]

My guess is that there will be more than one Board that will be prepared to effectively ignore the EBA’s reasoning relating to the role of the parties’ consent. The EPO President’s “New normal” agenda effectively demands this outcome. Indeed, for reasons that I have previously mentioned, the proposed move back to Munich could be interpreted as providing the Boards with an extra incentive to reach decisions that do not anger the

schestowitz__[TR]

EPO President.

schestowitz__[TR]

Of course, by failing to address structural flaws that give rise to objectively justifiable fears of partiality, and by taking decisions that could be perceived to make the situation even worse, the EPO is taking a very big risk. That risk is that a national court might find that the members of the EPO’s Boards of Appeal are not adequately independent. One possible consequence of this has been discussed on this blog (http://patentblog.

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-Could not resolve host: patentblog; Unknown error ( status 0 @ http://patentblog )

schestowitz__[TR]

kluweriplaw.com/2020/01/18/whats-the-worst-that-could-happen-constitutional-complaints-against-the-epo-in-germany/). However, it is important to remember that judicial independence is also essential for compatibility with other legal systems, such as TRIPS, EU laws and the European Convention on Human Rights. The potential consequences of an adverse ruling could therefore be devastating for the EPO.

schestowitz__[TR]

So why is the EPO prepared to take such incredible risks, instead of just adjusting the EPC to fix the structural flaws? Perhaps they know something that we do not, as might be suggested by the period of more than a decade that one of the constitutional complaints against the EPO has been pending at the BVerfG. Or are they just complacent that their privileges and immunities will shield them from any fall-out? With regard to the wasting of

schestowitz__[TR]

EPO funds on an epic scale (by renting and adapting new office space whilst EPO-owned space lies empty), that certainly seems to have worked for the former President.

schestowitz__[TR]

Anon Y. Mouse

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 10:44 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

Why Pschorr-Höfe? As far as I know the original BOA rooms in the Isar building (at least the rooms used for hearings) are still unoccupied.

schestowitz__[TR]

Trink mer a Pschorr an d'r Isar.

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 3:18 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

Because the city of Munich torpedoed the sale of PH VII, hence a new use for the building had to be found.

schestowitz__[TR]

the “perception” can be upheld this way.

schestowitz__[TR]

Mysterio

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 16, 2021 AT 11:58 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

This might be interesting as well:

http://techrights.org/2021/12/06/epo-and-committee-on-patent-law/

schestowitz__[TR]

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-techrights.org | The Committee on Patent Law (PLC) Informed About Overlooked Issues “Which Might Have a Bearing on the Validity of EPO Patents.” | Techrights

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 12:19 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

I am truly shocked to discover that the management of the EPO might be adopting policies and procedures that are inconsistent with the EPC! If only there had been some kind of evidence from their prior behaviour that might have warned us that they were capable of such a thing.

schestowitz__[TR]

Joking aside, the issue brought to the attention of the EPO’s Patent Law Committee is truly very serious. As things currently stand, it seems that management can, without providing any legal justification for doing so, order an ED to change its decision in connection with a specific patent application. Unless this legal loophole is closed, then the possibilities for rampant abuse of this apparently unchecked power are mind-boggling.

schestowitz__[TR]

One of those

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 18, 2021 AT 10:52 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

This possibility was always there, as changes in examining divisions have never been excluded.

schestowitz__[TR]

BTW, the current drive of “timeliness” includes many thoughts of exchanging divisions as often as necessary to bring the procedure to a quick conclusion.

schestowitz__[TR]

Guess which conclusion is fastest and has no waiting time in which the applicant could exert any control over how to react to known prior art?

schestowitz__[TR]

Attentive Observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 10:50 AM

schestowitz__[TR]

It is farcical to see that the president of the EPO and the president of the BA sign a MoU!

schestowitz__[TR]

One should not forget that the latter only has the powers delegated to him by the former.

schestowitz__[TR]

As long as the president of the BA cannot present directly its budget needs to the AC, the BA will never be independent.

schestowitz__[TR]

As long as the reappointment of BA members is dependent on a performance assessment, the BA are not independent.

schestowitz__[TR]

This is the more so since the criteria for re-appointment are not even public. One of the criteria is certainly linked to production/productivity, and probably, but not written, an excellent flexibility of the spine.

schestowitz__[TR]

What is infuriating is that BB will never have to pay for the damage he caused and the millions of € spent in vain.

schestowitz__[TR]

It was pure revenge of him for the EBA not willing to rubber stamp its disregard of the separation of powers and of the problems raised in R 19/12.

schestowitz__[TR]

I take bets that with the actual president of the BA and some EBA members it would have ended differently.

schestowitz__[TR]

As far as the “New way of working” is concerned it is mandatory teleworking, for members of the BA as well.

schestowitz__[TR]

In this respect, OP by ViCo are an absolute necessity.

schestowitz__[TR]

I can agree with Concerned Observer that we will face sooner or later a dynamic interpretation of G 1/21.

schestowitz__[TR]

The only driver for the present tenant of the 10th floor is to save money at any rate.

schestowitz__[TR]

He started with salaries and pensions on the basis of a fake study from which he took the worse scenario possible. Even after one year the financial results shows that there was no need to cut salaries and pensions. But the “special allocations” for the top management and its buddies have drastically increased.

schestowitz__[TR]

By imposing teleworking the aim is clearly to sell office space. BB was already dissatisfied that when he introduced “part-time home-working” not many examiners were asking for it.

schestowitz__[TR]

The pandemic offered his successor the reason he could not invoke for forcing teleworking: saving office space in order to sell it. The EPO tried to sell BT-VIII, the one immediately next to Hackerbrücke, but the city of Munich blocked it.

schestowitz__[TR]

The new building in Rijswijk was conceived with a maximum of open office space, also for examiners.

schestowitz__[TR]

The budget has also been provisioned such as to pay for a transformation of the present buildings in open space.

schestowitz__[TR]

What is the most disappointing is that the AC has completely given up its control function and has degraded itself in a rubber stamping machine for the wishes of the president.

schestowitz__[TR]

It is difficult to accept that countries with barely any applications have the same weight in the AC as the big contributing countries. There is a weighted voting system in the AC, but it is barely used, for obvious reasons.

schestowitz__[TR]

This is probably the biggest scandal!

schestowitz__[TR]

Concerned observer

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 12:52 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

Attentive, if you want to understand the behaviour of the EPO’s management, and of the AC delegates, then it seems to me that the only way to do this is to follow the money.

schestowitz__[TR]

Why on earth would the EPO make financial predictions that are based upon demonstrably unrealistic assumptions and that tell a (false) story of impending financial doom? What advantage does the EPO gain from doing this? Well, from the perspective of EPO management, setting very low (financial) expectations is a sure-fire way of guaranteeing that you deliver a stellar performance relative to what has been predicted. Trebles and massive

schestowitz__[TR]

bonuses (for the management) all round! Whilst the AC delegates may be alert to this obvious manipulation of the figures, they may be inclined to keep quiet because the prediction of impending doom provides the perfect excuse to reduce the EPO’s operating overheads … for which read cuts to the benefits of, and poorer working conditions for, for the bulk of the staff … and to thereby, in the long run, increase the proportion of the

schestowitz__[TR]

EPO’s income that is available for redistribution to the member states.

schestowitz__[TR]

Quite how the tail (the EPO President) manages to wag the dog (the AC) so efficiently when it comes to getting pretty much everything he wants is perhaps harder for outsiders to understand. However, it is beyond doubt that individual delegations to the AC are almost always VERY keen to avoid objecting to a proposal from the President unless they are certain that the majority of other delegations will take the same stand. Indeed, it seems

schestowitz__[TR]

that abstaining from voting on a proposal is about as much rebelliousness that AC delegations dare to demonstrate, even where it is clear that they strongly disapprove of the proposal in question. Given that the AC delegations are supposed to be the ones in charge, why are they so timid? What do they have to lose by standing up for what they want, or what they believe is right? Whilst I do not know the answer to this question, I have no

schestowitz__[TR]

doubt that the real reasons can be learned by following the money …

schestowitz__[TR]

Patent robot

schestowitz__[TR]

DECEMBER 17, 2021 AT 2:59 PM

schestowitz__[TR]

G 1/21 clarified that ViCo OP are compatible with the EPC, despite not being the “gold standard” (in-person OP).

schestowitz__[TR]

However, the AC can now introduce a new Rule 115a EPC: “Oral proceedings shall be held by videoconference” (forever), can’t it?

schestowitz__[TR]

I find the EPO branches in Berlin, Rijswijk (which is not The Hague) and Haar more incompatible with the EPC.

schestowitz__[TR]

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Dec 19 16:25

Techrights-sec2

transcoding complete : Toyota\ thinks\ THEY\ own\ your\ car.-57e4b1c88e1628819a65f9826b8ad17dcb1b35c7.webm

Dec 19 16:29

Techrights-sec2

youtube-dl is alegedly being discontinued

Dec 19 16:31

schestowitz-TR2

it can be forked, maybe another name

Dec 19 16:31

Techrights-sec2

there are others but I always have trouble remembering their names

Dec 19 16:31

schestowitz-TR2

serious question

schestowitz-TR2

shall we post firstr the video on its own and later the UK consultation with what'sd at staker?

schestowitz-TR2

or both at once?

schestowitz-TR2

I'd rather ask ryan for ideas too as he still drives

Techrights-sec2

pribably one and then the other. use the video to introduce a second aspect

Techrights-sec2

of software freedom

Techrights-sec2

what about Tim? It would be a good excuse to contact him.

Dec 19 16:40

Techrights-sec2

I presume he has at least one car.

Dec 19 16:40

schestowitz-TR2

good idea, but it would be quite a overhead; yes, he drove me to the airport once... or the train station, or both..

Dec 19 16:40

Techrights-sec2

Andy is in the UK too and very good at writing and might benefit from the

Dec 19 16:41

Techrights-sec2

Gov link to the consultation itself.

Dec 19 16:41

schestowitz-TR2

I want people I can reach on the spot over irc

Dec 19 16:41

schestowitz-TR2

see draft

Dec 19 16:42

Techrights-sec2

a few more details are needed there for the Gemini site

Dec 19 16:44

schestowitz-TR2

i need to watch it first :-)

Dec 19 16:44

Techrights-sec2

It's worth viewing

Dec 19 16:44

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Dec 19 16:47

schestowitz-TR2

"is it contacting Toyota's servers"

schestowitz-TR2

"uses radio waves"

schestowitz-TR2

"fuction will not worth" if Toyota does not allow it

schestowitz-TR2

"you not owning anything"

schestowitz-TR2

"ot being repairable"

schestowitz-TR2

"overpriced serves"

schestowitz-TR2

"every company in every company" against the ownership of car

schestowitz-TR2

"more comkmon in recent years"

schestowitz-TR2

"trial"

schestowitz-TR2

"premium"

schestowitz-TR2

"pay for subscription"

schestowitz-TR2

"imagine you buy a house... free trial for how cold the refriudgirator gets"

schestowitz-TR2

you are lft on your own after 3 years even though the functionality is already there

schestowitz-TR2

like DRM on printers and coffee machines

schestowitz-TR2

4.5 million dollars on lobbying against people's interests

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Dec 19 16:59

Techrights-sec2

yep ,thats how it works on both sides of the Atlantic

Techrights-sec2

That's one of the reason Louis has collected money to buy his own lobbyists

Techrights-sec2

for the Fight to Repair work

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: I need your help

DaemonFC

Dec 19 17:07

schestowitz-TR2

working on text about cars

Dec 19 17:07

schestowitz__[TR]

DaemonFC: http://techrights.org/2021/12/19/louis-rossmann-car-ownership/

Dec 19 17:14

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-techrights.org | You Cannot Own a Car Anymore… | Techrights

Dec 19 17:14

DaemonFC

Sorry, just woke up. I'm feeling more like myself each day but it's taking forever to get over this.

Dec 19 17:17

DaemonFC

schestowitz__[TR], I don't like any of the new features, including "self-drive".

Dec 19 17:20

DaemonFC

The driver is still liable in civil and criminal matters regarding what the software does, including if it causes an at-fault accident.

Dec 19 17:21

DaemonFC

But now, you also have to spend $80 a year subscribing to a remote starter that's already on the car, if you buy a Toyota, or else it will stop working.

Dec 19 17:21

DaemonFC

This is like Windows "Anytime Upgrade", where all of the features are there, but Microsoft disables them unless you buy a new activation code.

Dec 19 17:22

schestowitz-TR2

with plate readers everywhere you now get better privacy as a passenger in a taxi than as driver of 'yopur' car

Dec 19 17:22

DaemonFC

If you have the Toyota for 15 years, it costs $1200 to have the remote starter work and previously it cost $200 or so to have a good one put on the car that works forever.

schestowitz-TR2

[17:21] <DaemonFC> But now, you also have to spend $80 a year subscribing to a remote starter that's already on the car, if you buy a Toyota, or else it will stop working.

schestowitz-TR2

this is where I need your help

schestowitz-TR2

because UK has a consulation

schestowitz-TR2

and we want to write about it

schestowitz-TR2

you know the details better than me

https://fighttorepair.org/

DaemonFC

They like to slip "little things" in past you that don't register while you're buying the car.

Dec 19 17:25

DaemonFC

Who is thinking about a remote starter that costs them $1200-1600 over the life of the car?

Dec 19 17:26

DaemonFC

What if you buy the car and then they raise the price later?

Dec 19 17:26

Techrights-sec2

Techrights-sec2

"Who owns your device?"

Techrights-sec2

can the above link be added?

Techrights-sec2

ack

Techrights-sec2

Can the link be added in the last paragraph?

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-fighttorepair.org | Repair Preservation Group - Preserving Repair for Everyone, Everywhere

schestowitz-TR2

was just about to add it :-)

Dec 19 17:28

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, Well, Apple and Microsoft are chumming the waters with Right to Repair.

Dec 19 17:30

Techrights-sec2

Dec 19 17:30

DaemonFC

They're focusing on hardware only, which is an improvement.

Dec 19 17:30

DaemonFC

But without knowing how the software works or how to replace their operating system, you still don't control the device.

Dec 19 17:31

DaemonFC

They want to be in control of when the last software update goes out.

Dec 19 17:31

Techrights-sec2

Yes, apple, Microsoft, and the others are trying to saturate the news on that

Techrights-sec2

topic, diffuse and unfocus the work, and confuse the public and, especially,

Techrights-sec2

the politicians. This has to be slammed through as legislation or else

Techrights-sec2

Apple will continue on the path it has been going down since Steve Jobs got

Techrights-sec2

sick, and where most other vendors are deciding to follow. Nothing other than

Techrights-sec2

a legal smackdon will suffice, the PR efforts to the contrary are no more than

Techrights-sec2

PR efforts to stall and weaken the effort.

Techrights-sec2

and /take away/ the existing

Techrights-sec2

rights. There has always been the right to repair stuff one owns:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act

Techrights-sec2

Techrights-sec2

however, Apple and the others are trying to spin that into not applying to

Techrights-sec2

computers. Apple is even looking like it is aiming to ban general purpose

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-en.wikipedia.org | Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act - Wikipedia

Techrights-sec2

computing. Notice that the tradepress and other lapdogs are now grovelling

Techrights-sec2

about "sideloading" and insinuating how it is bad, rather than pointing out

Techrights-sec2

that the real name is "installation" and it is a normal activity on device

Techrights-sec2

and tools one /owns/ and controls. M$, Apple, and the car and farm equipment

Techrights-sec2

companies see that it could go either way. Right now the US is leaning towards

Techrights-sec2

keeping the rights that are in place, but with enough lobbyist money the vendors

Techrights-sec2

could tip it the other way. Here is an FTC position statement onn the topic:

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements/1592330/p194400repairrestrictionspolicystatement.pdf

Techrights-sec2

https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/documents/public_statements/1592354/final_chopra_prepared_remarks_on_right_to_repair.pdf

Techrights-sec2

DaemonFC

Microsoft is trying to retcon "installing software on Windows" as sideloading if you don't get one of the five apps that's not fake from their store.

Dec 19 17:40

Techrights-sec2

A key aspect is that M$ cultists have trained the public and the politicians

Techrights-sec2

to be completely docile when "computers" are mentioned and to roll over when

Techrights-sec2

"software" is mentioned. In the latter, they have help from the copyright

Techrights-sec2

cartel.

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, Capital One seems to monitor how frequently you use your other credit cards.

Dec 19 17:47

DaemonFC

They noticed I wasn't using my Capital One card as often as the others and they offered me an upgrade to a rewards card.

DaemonFC

Sneaky....

DaemonFC

They'll offer it if they have to, in order to compete with the other banks.

schestowitz-TR2

I see...

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: any thoughts on https://hackaday.com/2021/12/18/when-does-car-hacking-become-tampering-the-british-government-seeks-guidance/ ?

-TechrightsBN/#boycottnovell-hackaday.com | When Does Car Hacking Become “Tampering”? The British Government Seeks Guidance | Hackaday

DaemonFC

Kind of funny actually. They ate more of a loss than all of my other credit card banks put together in the bankruptcy.

schestowitz-TR2

you know better than me

schestowitz-TR2

what those cars nowadays do

DaemonFC

I wish they'd just go back to what cars in the 1980s came with.

schestowitz-TR2

btw, we'll pay the host as a xmas gesture soon, would you like to chip in as welll?

schestowitz-TR2

(bank to bank)

Techrights-sec2

Sure

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: yes

schestowitz-TR2

we plan to write something

schestowitz-TR2

I can integrate your thoughts too

schestowitz-TR2

send send it to our govt.

schestowitz-TR2

*then send

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, If you can find a 1985 Honda or GMC pickup or anything really and the body is in good shape....

DaemonFC

You'd be financially better off to wheel it down to a good mechanic and dump $10,000 or more into having him fix everything that needs attention than you would buying a new car.

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DaemonFC

And you can find some cars that old that never rusted, that look like they came straight out of the 80s. If they were in California or Nevada or even Florida.

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DaemonFC

Obviously, for safety you should take it down and have it inspected and repaired as needed. Expect to replace all of the brake lines, belts, and rubber hoses.

Dec 19 17:53

DaemonFC

They dry rot.

Dec 19 17:53

DaemonFC

But once you get out ahead of that, the car might be perfectly usable for many years.

Dec 19 17:53

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, I hope to get at least a few more years out of the Impala, but I won't be replacing it with anything very new.

Dec 19 17:54

DaemonFC

I'll probably go looking for about a 2010 Crown Victoria or something that was fleet owned.

Dec 19 17:55

DaemonFC

They just don't break down nearly as often as newer cars do. They were pretty much designed in the 70s-90s and then tweaked along the way. Ford never invested anything in a total redesign after that.

Dec 19 17:55

DaemonFC

The mentality, right, was different then.

Dec 19 17:56

DaemonFC

Back then, people were smarter and they knew, hey, this is a major purchase and it should last a while.

Dec 19 17:56

DaemonFC

Now it's "If my brand new $50,000 Toyota can't ping a web server to verify I paid my $8 a month remote starter fee, they start disabling my shit!".

Dec 19 17:57

DaemonFC

"Wow, so amazing! $850 a month car payments for 7 years, you say? Oh boy!".

Techrights-sec2

gemini://gemini.techrights.org/2021/12/19/louis-rossmann-car-ownership/

Techrights-sec2

DaemonFC

"Plus the $8 a month for the remote starter of course!"

DaemonFC

Like, when did Toyota get so fucking greedy that they have to take on $8 a month to an $850 a month car?

DaemonFC

*tack

DaemonFC

Remember Henry Ford? His philosophy was that mass production should make cars so cheap and so easy to repair that anyone could own one?

schestowitz-TR2

and for BS

DaemonFC

Henry Ford was obviously a shrewd Capitalist, and these modern car companies could not be more diametrically opposed to his viewpoint.

Dec 19 18:00

DaemonFC

They want to tack on surprise fees that you won't even consider, to a car that's got you bleeding out like a deer that's been hung on a rack.

Dec 19 18:00

schestowitz-TR2

thanks

schestowitz-TR2

I take these notes for later

schestowitz-TR2

when I put together a post

DaemonFC

They control the government safety agencies. They ask for all of these new "safety" features to be mandatory.

DaemonFC

That way their competitors can't produce an affordable car either.

Dec 19 18:02

DaemonFC

When you wreck it, it's totaled because it costs $1,000 for the body damage and $10,000 to realign some sensors.

Dec 19 18:02

DaemonFC

When those idiots ran into my Impala, you know what I did?

Dec 19 18:02

DaemonFC

I pulled off the bumper cover and put on an aftermarket one that was on ebay for $150.

Dec 19 18:03

DaemonFC

It's held on by standard bolts that you can just unscrew and screw back in.

Dec 19 18:03

DaemonFC

It took out my fog lamps, but the plastic was so yellowed anyway that I just unplugged them and tossed them in the dumpster.

Dec 19 18:04

DaemonFC

Dec 19 18:04

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Dec 19 18:05

DaemonFC

I lol'd when I found out that that idiot who said his back hurt didn't even file a claim with the insurance company.

Dec 19 18:06

DaemonFC

They didn't pay out a cent.

Dec 19 18:06

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Dec 19 18:07

DaemonFC

That means that he's responsible for whatever the hospital billed him. I'm sure that being an absconded child molester pays him enough to take care of a $15,000 ER bill.

Dec 19 18:07

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Dec 19 18:09

Techrights-sec2

I've given myself too tight a schedule

Techrights-sec2

given that I work 1-9am, but I can handle it

Techrights-sec2

just need to get in the rhythm and stay in it

schestowitz-TR2

I've given myself too tight a schedule

schestowitz-TR2

given that I work 1-9am, but I can handle it

schestowitz-TR2

just need to get in the rhythm and stay in it

Techrights-sec2

Avoid burnout stress

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: thanks for your thoiughts

schestowitz-TR2

I will write about them during my work shift

Dec 19 18:11

schestowitz-TR2

I need to read the texts carefully

Dec 19 18:11

schestowitz-TR2

and then put together a response

Dec 19 18:11

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, Yeah, the risk of being hit by an uninsured driver pales in comparison to the police coming out, lying, and blaming it all on you.

Techrights-sec2

ack

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: yeah

DaemonFC

I just got lucky that those two were off to doing whatever it is they do and didn't bother following through with the insurance or coming to court.

schestowitz-TR2

my bod typically shuts off sleepiness if I fall behind

Dec 19 18:13

schestowitz-TR2

I will just need to not chat for a bit and focus on marathon-like or sprint

Dec 19 18:13

schestowitz-TR2

'bbl'

Dec 19 18:13

schestowitz-TR2

DaemonFC: those are other types of issues

schestowitz-TR2

the liability aspects

schestowitz-TR2

maybe a different article

schestowitz-TR2

I want to focus on the UK proposal

schestowitz-TR2

and call on others to write to them

DaemonFC

schestowitz-TR2, Well, after seeing what goes on in traffic court, I know that paying the ticket is always the worst option.

Dec 19 18:16

DaemonFC

Even if the police show up and you have no defense, you can waste as much of their time as possible by asking useless questions.

Dec 19 18:17

DaemonFC

Once the prosecutor realizes that it's a filibuster and that you're taking time away from them that they could be using to get others to agree to fines, they'll break down and offer you something.

Dec 19 18:17

DaemonFC

You can't go in there and read the phone book, but you can start asking the officer and witnesses questions that are about the incident, but are not going anywhere.

Dec 19 18:18

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