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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 14th, 2009 - Part 2

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_Hicham_he was president due to his genealogyMar 14 21:16
schestowitzIn a world where a country is powerful enough, the laws is aughed uponMar 14 21:16
balzacDon't ask me why he subverted our military and our constitution.Mar 14 21:16
schestowitzReminds me of MS in IT..Mar 14 21:16
_Hicham_he even participated to 9/11Mar 14 21:16
balzacBush's every action were those of a man who hated America with a fiery passion.Mar 14 21:16
schestowitzLaw is just a recommendation, not a boundryMar 14 21:16
schestowitzMicrosoft bribed? OOPS.Mar 14 21:16
schestowitzSorry about that...Mar 14 21:16
schestowitzThat would be bad publicityMar 14 21:16
schestowitzBut never will you see Steve and Bill brought to trial.Mar 14 21:17
schestowitzIn the US, rich people can't go to jailMar 14 21:17
schestowitzThere's the notion ogf bail or settlementMar 14 21:17
_Hicham_in all the worldMar 14 21:17
schestowitzWhich means th nation would accept a bribe to let the people goMar 14 21:17
trmancoDigg messed up the recomendation engineMar 14 21:17
_Hicham_except scandinavian countriesMar 14 21:17
schestowitz_Hicham_: no genealogy, he stole the electionMar 14 21:17
schestowitzBush never really won the 200 electionMar 14 21:18
schestowitzIt was a fraudMar 14 21:18
trmancoI have 1 frontpage article in the upcoming/recommended pageMar 14 21:18
schestowitz*2000Mar 14 21:18
trmancowtfMar 14 21:18
schestowitztrmanco: Digg is brokenMar 14 21:18
*trmanco thinks on making his own social siteMar 14 21:18
schestowitzAnd it's gamed heavily so I don't even bother reading it. It declines overalll.Mar 14 21:18
schestowitzThey maybe should have sold, but I'm glad they didn'tMar 14 21:19
trmancoI have a screen, if you want proofMar 14 21:19
schestowitzOK, put in ohotobucketMar 14 21:19
schestowitz*potoMar 14 21:19
schestowitz*photoMar 14 21:19
Balrog__hehMar 14 21:19
_Hicham_balzac : did u setup ur desktop well?Mar 14 21:20
schestowitzbalzac: new one: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics... (Secret emails show Iraq dossier was 'sexed up')Mar 14 21:21
seller_liarschestowitz: No roy, In Brazil it's not knownMar 14 21:21
schestowitzseller_liar: still a newcomerMar 14 21:21
schestowitzWhat's amazing is that almost 8 years later they manage to find more evidence of corruption from high up at the top -- stuff that couldn't be found for so many yearsMar 14 21:22
trmancoschestowitz, will Tinypic do? It belong to PhotobcucketMar 14 21:22
schestowitztrmanco: sureMar 14 21:22
trmancobelongsMar 14 21:22
balzacRoy, remember the guy who originally introduced the phrase "sexed up" in the context of the Iraq war sales pitch?Mar 14 21:22
trmancomaybe I should host it too, for future referenceMar 14 21:22
balzacFound dead, full of sleeping pills, wrists slit.Mar 14 21:22
balzacConsider him a murder victim of the Bush/Blair crime syndicate.Mar 14 21:23
balzacTony Blair - Bush's man-servantMar 14 21:23
trmancoschestowitz, http://i44.tinypic.com/j7qfjn.jpgMar 14 21:23
trmancothe one with 322 diggs is on the frontpageMar 14 21:24
schestowitzCorporate legal scrambles to withdraw inflated Palm Pre claims < http://www.roughlydrafted.com/200... >Mar 14 21:24
schestowitzbalzac: I seee...Mar 14 21:24
schestowitzDavid Kelly, right?Mar 14 21:24
schestowitzwe discussed this in IRC last yearMar 14 21:24
balzacTony Blair should only get 10 years in prison as part of a plea-bargain deal. He has to deliver the goods to jail Bush for life.Mar 14 21:24
balzacyepMar 14 21:24
schestowitzMysterious death that seems like elimination as much as a suicideMar 14 21:25
balzache was just about to testify, and he was angry, not depressed.Mar 14 21:25
balzacand he was afraid for his life.Mar 14 21:25
balzaclots of people died like that during Bush's reignMar 14 21:26
schestowitztrmanco: is it s bug?Mar 14 21:26
schestowitzOr was it denied entry?Mar 14 21:26
trmancoIMO, it's a bugMar 14 21:26
balzacI think he was a victim of the executive assassination ring Sy Hersch mentioned recentlyMar 14 21:26
trmancofirst time this happened to meMar 14 21:26
balzacok, time for me to get some work doneMar 14 21:26
schestowitzDigg is so bizarre. But if I submit and let it just do its thing I can make FP after 70 diggs. Those who cheat need much more... over 1000Mar 14 21:27
schestowitz*!00Mar 14 21:27
taconeschestowitz: will you ever accept my friendship on digg ? :PMar 14 21:27
schestowitztacone: does it need confirmation?Mar 14 21:27
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schestowitzI'm already maxed up on number of friends added (1001)Mar 14 21:27
taconeohMar 14 21:27
taconeleave it alone then.Mar 14 21:28
taconei am already your 'fan' on digg. that's sufficentMar 14 21:28
balzacenjoy these photos of Bora BoraMar 14 21:28
balzachttp://www.latimes.com/tra...Mar 14 21:28
schestowitzA lot of 'friends' are botsMar 14 21:28
schestowitzSilly spammer create them and then mass-addMar 14 21:28
taconeso what ? i am a bot myself.Mar 14 21:28
schestowitzSome sort of network harvesting or somethingMar 14 21:28
taconebalzac: any higher resolution version ?Mar 14 21:29
schestowitzbalzac: 6th pic is soothing, then I saw the 7th (shark)Mar 14 21:29
schestowitzbalzac: does Bora Bora suffer from a credit /crunch/? :-)Mar 14 21:30
balzacI know nothing about bora bora, but I'm working for a travel agency, so I found those pics in the course of a day at work.Mar 14 21:31
balzactacone: wysiwygMar 14 21:31
taconesighMar 14 21:32
schestowitzbalzac: dreams have limitations: http://www.panoramio.com/ph...Mar 14 21:33
Balrog__:/Mar 14 21:34
schestowitzStormy weather... never like in  the catalogs... also Google Maps there.Mar 14 21:34
Balrog__if only everyone would use unicode....Mar 14 21:34
schestowitzToo many bitsMar 14 21:34
*Balrog__ is now known as Balrog_Mar 14 21:34
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_Hicham_Balrog : if microsoft go down, everyone will use unicodeMar 14 21:36
schestowitzhttp://en.wikipedia.org/w...Mar 14 21:36
_Hicham_sexy bora bora during stormMar 14 21:38
schestowitz"A series of devastating events killed or removed almost the entire population of Easter Island in the 1860s. In December 1862, Peruvian slave raiders struck Easter Island. Violent abductions continued for several months, eventually capturing or killing around 1500 men and women, about half of the island's population"Mar 14 21:38
Balrog_in this case, the person I got files from used Pagemaker (obsolete); does not want to buy InDesign or re-learn stuff.Mar 14 21:40
_Hicham_Balrog : he should use LaTeXMar 14 21:43
_Hicham_:DMar 14 21:43
Balrog_don't you get "or re-learn stuff"?Mar 14 21:45
Balrog_WYSIWYGMar 14 21:45
_Hicham_WYSIWYG is not always goodMar 14 21:46
_Hicham_and u know thatMar 14 21:46
Balrog_well, it does helpMar 14 21:46
Balrog_not everyone is a geek.Mar 14 21:47
_Hicham_Maybe OpenOffice.org thenMar 14 21:47
Balrog_that could workMar 14 21:47
Balrog_there's an app called scribus designed for that thoughMar 14 21:48
Balrog_FOSSMar 14 21:48
MinceR225430 < Balrog_> not everyone is a geek.Mar 14 21:49
MinceRnot everyone has access to mind-reading computers either :>Mar 14 21:49
Balrog_I'm not talking about myselfMar 14 21:49
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Balrog_computers should give users optionsMar 14 21:50
Balrog_if users want to do it by hand, let themMar 14 21:50
Balrog_if users want WYSIWYG, let themMar 14 21:50
_Hicham_scribus looks greatMar 14 21:52
schestowitzIt is greatMar 14 21:52
schestowitza friend of mine who works in a publishing house says that she and other there use itMar 14 21:52
schestowitzThey dump the Microsoft software and other stuff like Adobe. They use Linux  too.Mar 14 21:53
_Hicham_Great, a publishing house with LinuxMar 14 21:54
_Hicham_!Mar 14 21:54
schestowitzThere are many that use latex or lyx. knuth uses ubuntuMar 14 22:01
Balrog_schestowitz: many people still use wordperfectMar 14 22:03
trmancohttp://www.youtube.com/wat...Mar 14 22:03
Balrog_simply because it's both wysiwyg and has 'codes'Mar 14 22:03
trmancoWindows is a problem to WindowsMar 14 22:03
Balrog_s/some/manyMar 14 22:04
_Hicham_Knuth uses Ubuntu?Mar 14 22:04
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_Hicham_Shuttleworth must be flatteredMar 14 22:05
_Hicham_they must to the study casesMar 14 22:05
_Hicham_who uses drupal in here?Mar 14 22:05
_Hicham_no oneMar 14 22:06
_Hicham_?Mar 14 22:06
schestowitzOSS illusion: http://www.informationweek.com/new...Mar 14 22:06
schestowitz"The Idou is the first smartphone to officially announce it will run the open source Symbian operating system, which is expected to be completed next year. Nokia shocked many last year when it purchased the remaining shares of Symbian and said it would turn it into a royalty-free, open source operating system for smartphones. "Mar 14 22:07
schestowitzSymbian/Nokia just tries to blur gaps.Mar 14 22:07
schestowitz_Hicham_: but not GNOMEMar 14 22:07
schestowitztrmanco: I get a headache just watching itMar 14 22:09
trmancololMar 14 22:09
_Hicham_Roy : what has gnome to do with that?Mar 14 22:09
schestowitz_Hicham_: http://www.reddit.com/comments/6h5fh/k...Mar 14 22:09
schestowitztrmanco: Windows crash log. imagine if cars had that.....Mar 14 22:10
trmancoschestowitz, cars would not existe thenMar 14 22:11
trmancoexist*Mar 14 22:11
taconehorses ?Mar 14 22:11
_Hicham_a crash log for cars?Mar 14 22:12
_Hicham_no one uses drupal in here?Mar 14 22:14
_Hicham_no one?Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_roy uses wordpress?Mar 14 22:15
schestowitztrmanco: point is...Mar 14 22:15
_Hicham_what do u use Balrog?Mar 14 22:15
schestowitzMicrosoft should go ahead to prevent crashedMar 14 22:15
schestowitz*crashesMar 14 22:15
schestowitzNot just report themMar 14 22:15
schestowitzDiagnostics = symptoms, not cureMar 14 22:15
trmancothey won'tMar 14 22:16
trmancothey prefer advertising, lipstickMar 14 22:16
schestowitzIn Linux it's kernel "oops"Mar 14 22:16
schestowitzKDE crashes are very, very rareMar 14 22:16
schestowitzCOmmon in 4.0 I hearMar 14 22:16
_Hicham_gnome crashed only two times for meMar 14 22:17
_Hicham_one time because of javaMar 14 22:17
schestowitzI wonder if people are born sensitive to advertisingMar 14 22:17
_Hicham_and the second time because of matlabMar 14 22:17
schestowitzOr maybe it's something that arrives through indoctrination (education)Mar 14 22:17
_Hicham_Roy : you are an advertiser tooMar 14 22:18
schestowitzThere's the theory about subconscious penetrating judgmentMar 14 22:18
schestowitz_Hicham_: you could claim this about making any opinionMar 14 22:18
schestowitzBut I'm thinking about "proprganda"/PRMar 14 22:19
schestowitzWhen it's done in an organised fashion to deceiveMar 14 22:19
schestowitzLike sell a warMar 14 22:19
schestowitzOr sell people a product they needMar 14 22:19
schestowitzWhen deceiving people becomes an occupationMar 14 22:19
_Hicham_u should learn from they RoyMar 14 22:20
_Hicham_if u want to combat ur enemy, u better learn from himMar 14 22:20
schestowitzBlankenhorn is sort of trolling OSS again.Mar 14 22:22
_Hicham_and u should have a big beard to combat microsoftMar 14 22:22
schestowitzHeadlines like "Is the new open source Eurolicense eurotrash?" and "PC moment for open source may lack profit "Mar 14 22:22
schestowitzAnd MOG (Microsoft shill) is trying to stick together Microsoft and OSSMar 14 22:23
schestowitz_Hicham_: I don't advertiseMar 14 22:23
schestowitzI expose their startegyMar 14 22:23
schestowitzThings like shill agencies, dumping, bribes, etc. Zuck, CompTIA etc... teaching how brutally corrupt the system is Mar 14 22:24
schestowitzYou don't fight the pig by wrestling with it in the mud. You both get dirty this way...Mar 14 22:24
Balrog__Hicham_: I use what is available at the momentMar 14 22:25
_Hicham_so no one in here is using drupal:-(Mar 14 22:26
balzac_Hicham_:Mar 14 22:26
balzacI use DrupalMar 14 22:26
Balrog_drupal for...?Mar 14 22:26
balzacwebsitesMar 14 22:27
balzacwhat else is it good for?Mar 14 22:27
schestowitzThe banner and blog looks much better now: Negative Approach is now Software, Interrupted < http://news.cnet.com/8301-1384... >Mar 14 22:27
taconedrupal makes also good coffeeMar 14 22:27
schestowitzDripp drip..Mar 14 22:27
benJImanschestowitz: "Novell have released" is a bit inaccurate when the work isn't done by a novell employee and it's not released by novellMar 14 22:29
_Hicham_balzac : do u use the xmlsitemap module?Mar 14 22:29
balzacnot yet. Don't you need a special php extension for that?Mar 14 22:29
balzacxdebug to enable back-tracing for the purpose of mapping?Mar 14 22:29
_Hicham_what php extension?Mar 14 22:30
balzacxdebugMar 14 22:30
_Hicham_nothing is mentioned in the docMar 14 22:30
balzaclemme seeMar 14 22:30
_Hicham_okMar 14 22:30
schestowitzbenJIman: I knowMar 14 22:31
schestowitzIt's accurateMar 14 22:31
schestowitzNovell is peopleMar 14 22:31
schestowitzbeineri is NovellMar 14 22:31
schestowitzI forgot his full name now...Mar 14 22:31
benJImanschestowitz: http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/3902Mar 14 22:32
balzachttp://drupal.org/project/site_mapMar 14 22:32
balzacthat's a different module, _Hicham_Mar 14 22:32
schestowitzBalrog: to hell with Novell (it rhymes)Mar 14 22:33
schestowitzHe's one of their better peopleMar 14 22:33
Balrog_hehMar 14 22:33
schestowitzDon'rworryMar 14 22:33
schestowitzHis wage is not goneMar 14 22:33
balzachttp://drupal.org/project/vis... <-- this is the one I was thinking of, _Hicham_Mar 14 22:34
schestowitzHovo Sapient can build a new sauna at homneMar 14 22:34
balzacxml site map doesn't have a version for Drupal 6 yetMar 14 22:34
schestowitz$8 million in bonuses for one year can buy loadsMar 14 22:34
_Hicham_xmlsitemap is for submitting sitemap to search enginesMar 14 22:34
_Hicham_yesMar 14 22:34
_Hicham_that is my problem balzacMar 14 22:34
_Hicham_the dev version doesnt workMar 14 22:34
balzacHovo Sapient sounds like an evil scientistMar 14 22:34
balzacwho is trying to evolve himself to the next level of evolution to attain supremecy over everyone elseMar 14 22:35
balzacHovo Sapient, the mad, megalo-maniacal doctor who is his own greatest experimentMar 14 22:35
schestowitz"Just out of curiosity, why did Novell fire so many OpenSuSE developers? AFAIK, you were a good employee and a talented developer (unless N is planning to drop KDE >:(. (no, I don't want to start a conspiracy theory.))"Mar 14 22:36
schestowitzBalrog: he works with Uncle FesterMar 14 22:36
schestowitzbalzac: Mar 14 22:36
balzacRoy, he already extracted their DNA with syringes and their egos through special cranial-caps, so they're useless to him now.Mar 14 22:37
schestowitz"I€´m getting worry about the future openSUSE project."Mar 14 22:37
schestowitzBalrog: well, good luck to himMar 14 22:37
balzacHe has absorbed their vital essences to increase his vitalityMar 14 22:37
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6rqXHX3O48Mar 14 22:38
balzacWhy was Steve Ballmer sweating and screaming "Developers, developers, developers!"Mar 14 22:38
balzacBecause Steve Ballmer also extracts their vitality to make a special cognition-enhancing breakfast shakeMar 14 22:38
balzacHe has their brains liquified and sucked out through their ear canalMar 14 22:39
balzacAt Microsoft, the executives can pull out any developer's heart-plug at any momentMar 14 22:39
balzacman, I should be the creative director for a gameMar 14 22:40
schestowitz3d?Mar 14 22:40
schestowitzgnu+gurlz?Mar 14 22:40
schestowitzHow's dat comin' along. You us ya model !11Mar 14 22:41
balzacRoy, that was a good mash-upMar 14 22:42
balzacRoy, the game would be about Imperial Microsoft of the future and the free software rebels who resist them.Mar 14 22:43
balzacHovo Sapient, Ballmer, devourer of developers, MS authoritarianism in a macabe science fiction futureMar 14 22:44
balzacthe sound track would feature a lot of industrial drum & bassMar 14 22:44
balzacThe proprietary software developers would not understand that they were being cognitively castrated by their overlords, their egos consumed by the executive class.Mar 14 22:45
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balzacmeanwhile, the free software guys are the most dangerous enemy of the empire because we still have full virility and the power to please the trophy wives of the overlordsMar 14 22:46
balzacso the free software rebels are feared and reviledMar 14 22:46
balzacRoy, I'm glad this channel is logged because I'm on a roll hereMar 14 22:46
balzacok, back to work...Mar 14 22:48
Balrog_what do you guys think of non-foss freeware from independent developers?Mar 14 22:52
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schestowitzbalzac: hehe, thanks.Mar 14 22:55
schestowitzBalrog: mostly harmless from my POVMar 14 22:55
schestowitzFreeware lags behind FOSS most of the timeMar 14 22:56
Balrog_what about low-cost stuff...like <= $40Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_yes, in many casesMar 14 22:56
schestowitzIt's also at risk of being abandonwareMar 14 22:56
Balrog_there are some cases where foss still needs work.Mar 14 22:56
Balrog_Yes, I've seen that :(Mar 14 22:56
schestowitzNeeds work =opportunityMar 14 22:56
schestowitzLike compiler which was a gap to  be filled (GCC)Mar 14 22:57
Balrog_what do you think of LLVM and clang?Mar 14 22:57
schestowitzI don't use LLVMMar 14 22:57
Balrog_it's MIT-licensedMar 14 22:57
Balrog_and may possibly replace GCC  :OMar 14 22:58
seller_liarit 's not goodMar 14 22:58
Balrog_seller_liar: elaborateMar 14 22:58
seller_liargcc is gplv3 , is a very important part of gnu linux systemMar 14 22:59
Balrog_yes.Mar 14 22:59
seller_liarthe gnu linux system cannot be infected with mit licensesMar 14 22:59
Balrog_llvm license: http://llvm.org/releases/2.5...Mar 14 22:59
seller_liargnu linux is freeMar 14 22:59
Balrog_MIT license is like BSD licenseMar 14 22:59
seller_liarnot permissiveMar 14 22:59
Balrog_no copyleftMar 14 23:00
Balrog_but otherwise fully FOSSMar 14 23:00
seller_liarThe gnu linux must maitain gcc ,because of license natureMar 14 23:00
trmancohttp://gandolf.homelinux.org/blo...Mar 14 23:00
trmancoheheMar 14 23:00
Balrog_(mit license is the correct name for X11 license)Mar 14 23:00
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balzacI don't see open source licenses replacing free software licenses where it really mattersMar 14 23:00
seller_liarMit ,bsd and other permissive licenses permits proprietary softwareMar 14 23:01
Balrog_yes.Mar 14 23:01
balzaccopyleft licenses keep a strong software community, acting as the social contractMar 14 23:01
Balrog_it can be forked though ... right?Mar 14 23:01
Balrog_or even incorporated into gcc.....Mar 14 23:01
seller_liarYesMar 14 23:01
Balrog_or am I wrong...?Mar 14 23:01
seller_liarSome licenses permits , others notMar 14 23:01
Balrog_well, clang is already useful for finding memory leaks :)Mar 14 23:02
balzacThe GNU project and the FSF need to shake down the fat catsMar 14 23:02
seller_liarThis is a crazy projectMar 14 23:02
oiaohmForking licence like GPL might permit it but name of program can be trademarkedMar 14 23:02
Balrog_llvm is an acronymMar 14 23:02
seller_liarclang takes 3 or more years to completeMar 14 23:02
Balrog_'low level virtual machine'Mar 14 23:02
seller_liarI  don t like to repeat the same workMar 14 23:02
seller_liarWe already have a good c compilerMar 14 23:03
seller_liarwhy another?Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_I understand that LLVM/Clang aren't just a c compilerMar 14 23:03
oiaohmWhat do you mean good?Mar 14 23:03
seller_liargcc is goodMar 14 23:03
oiaohmGcc still needs masive work so it works.Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_http://llvm.org/Mar 14 23:03
seller_liarLLVM is good , but clang is another repetitive taskMar 14 23:03
oiaohmLack of link time optimisationMar 14 23:03
oiaohmHistrotic hacked up structs.Mar 14 23:03
Balrog_clang is a frontend for LLVMMar 14 23:03
seller_liarWe must focus in desktop area , not in development areaMar 14 23:03
Balrog_(c language)Mar 14 23:03
oiaohmDo you want Linux to run with performance seller_liarMar 14 23:04
seller_liarlinux is very good using gccMar 14 23:04
seller_liarMy machine is very powerful tooMar 14 23:04
oiaohmCurrent Linux is limping speed compared to what it can be with portland group complier building same source code.Mar 14 23:04
seller_liarNot all optimization is dependant of compilerMar 14 23:05
seller_liarfor more speed , we need to create more dependant codeMar 14 23:05
oiaohmLack of linktime optimistation in current gcc cripples lot of programs.Mar 14 23:05
seller_liarlike liboilMar 14 23:05
oiaohmLack of means to turn single threaded applications into multithreaded to take advantage of multi cores is another.Mar 14 23:05
seller_liarI don t like  CMar 14 23:05
Balrog_seller_liar: Linux *is* C/C++Mar 14 23:06
seller_liarI like java ,eiffel , sather and lisaacMar 14 23:06
seller_liarI knowMar 14 23:06
oiaohmPortland group complier has both.Mar 14 23:06
oiaohmllvm was also designed to find secuirty flaws in programs.Mar 14 23:06
seller_liareiffel is amazing languageMar 14 23:06
seller_liarI know , llvm is goodMar 14 23:06
seller_liarbut clang is another monotone taskMar 14 23:07
oiaohmIts bit like gold linker vs ld.Mar 14 23:07
seller_liar3 or 5 years to completeMar 14 23:07
seller_liarhttp://liboil.freedesktop.org/wiki/Mar 14 23:07
seller_liarwe need invest time in another more powerful langugesMar 14 23:07
seller_liarfor exampleMar 14 23:07
seller_liarSatherMar 14 23:07
seller_liarhttp://www.icsi.berkeley.edu/~s...Mar 14 23:08
oiaohmuse portland group complier some time seller_liarMar 14 23:08
seller_liarlisaac ( the real alternative to c)Mar 14 23:08
seller_liarhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LisaacMar 14 23:08
oiaohmoptimiser of portland group is magical.Mar 14 23:08
seller_liarI don like c because is very old and easy to failMar 14 23:09
oiaohmAgain depends on the complier seller_liarMar 14 23:09
seller_liarno ,Mar 14 23:09
oiaohmIt does seller_liarMar 14 23:09
seller_liarc needs a lot of code to do a simple taskMar 14 23:09
seller_liarpointers ,arghhhhMar 14 23:10
seller_liarvery dirty languageMar 14 23:10
seller_liarJava is amazingMar 14 23:10
seller_liaris cleanMar 14 23:10
oiaohmWhen developing drivers pointer is useful.Mar 14 23:11
seller_liarhave 3rd party support for contracts , aspects and a lot of other languahesMar 14 23:11
seller_liarI prefer lisaacMar 14 23:11
seller_liarLissac is very good to system programmingMar 14 23:11
seller_liarLook this benchmarkMar 14 23:11
seller_liarpeople use c because of standarlization and portability and legacyMar 14 23:11
seller_liarhttp://isaacproject.u-strasbg...Mar 14 23:12
seller_liarLisaac is a incomplete languge but veeery powerful for system programmingMar 14 23:12
oiaohmlissac is another in the lines http://www.ctalklang.org/Mar 14 23:12
seller_liarcontracts , and OOPMar 14 23:12
oiaohmMany have been created over the years.  Yet C remains.Mar 14 23:13
seller_liaryes, I know, but c is oldMar 14 23:13
seller_liarPeople use c because....Mar 14 23:13
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seller_liara lot of people uses c!Mar 14 23:13
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oiaohmLot of people use C because C++ that in theory should have been better in performance is not.Mar 14 23:14
schestowitzHi, seller_liar Mar 14 23:15
*schestowitz catches upMar 14 23:15
seller_liarschestowitz: hello royMar 14 23:15
seller_liaroiaohm: yes, because of flexibilityMar 14 23:15
seller_liaroiaohm: c is very dirty and and have a lot of hacksMar 14 23:15
seller_liaroiaohm: but is very simple and very easy to destroy somethingMar 14 23:15
oiaohmSupprising hard to destory something with a complier that truly does audit your code.Mar 14 23:16
seller_liaroiaohm: maybeMar 14 23:16
seller_liaroiaohm: But this is not a good solutionMar 14 23:16
oiaohmC++ and C are both let down by the quality of there compliers.Mar 14 23:17
seller_liaroiaohm: Because of development of compilersMar 14 23:17
seller_liaroiaohm: but we can create powerful compilers for java tooMar 14 23:17
oiaohmIssue is way better compilers than MSVC and Gcc exist for C and C++.Mar 14 23:17
oiaohmProblem is they are not free.Mar 14 23:18
seller_liaroiaohm: I don t like msvcMar 14 23:18
oiaohmmsvc beats gcc in lots of cases because it has link time optimisation.Mar 14 23:18
oiaohmLink time optimisation equals smaller and faster programs.Mar 14 23:18
seller_liaroiaohm:and probably knows better windows apiMar 14 23:18
seller_liaroiaohm: Like iccMar 14 23:19
oiaohmicc slow compared to portland group.Mar 14 23:19
seller_liarICC and msvc is more fast because of knowledge of apisMar 14 23:19
oiaohmNopMar 14 23:19
seller_liarMsvc is windows dependeentMar 14 23:19
schestowitzyesMar 14 23:20
seller_liarmsvc compiled apps runs better in windowsMar 14 23:20
schestowitzthat's the thingMar 14 23:20
schestowitzYou think win developmentMar 14 23:20
schestowitzLike that silly IE benchmarkMar 14 23:20
schestowitzMicrosoft spreads the illusion that IE is fastMar 14 23:20
schestowitzIt only shows WindowsMar 14 23:20
seller_liaricc compiler runs slow in some amd chips but runs fast in intel chipsMar 14 23:20
oiaohmBuild envorment yes.   You can build MSVC embeded application without windows dependancy.Mar 14 23:20
schestowitzIt does the same game with officeMar 14 23:20
schestowitzThey build the OS to prod their waresMar 14 23:20
schestowitzRecall netscape trialMar 14 23:20
schestowitzBorland tooMar 14 23:20
oiaohmPerformance if MSVC on embed is still fast than gcc.Mar 14 23:20
schestowitzI have lots of Comes docs I'll do later this years about itMar 14 23:21
schestowitzCriminal activity/dirty tricksMar 14 23:21
schestowitzSo re: MSVCMar 14 23:21
schestowitzYou're thinking about exe buildsMar 14 23:21
seller_liaroiaohm: This can happen ,but gcc 4.4 is doing a good work in optimizationMar 14 23:21
schestowitzThink cross platformMar 14 23:21
schestowitzWindows is passe for many thingsMar 14 23:21
schestowitzPeople who are engineers use real systems, not WIndowsMar 14 23:21
oiaohmGcc is at long last catch up to what should have been done from the start.Mar 14 23:22
oiaohmGcc was designed with the foolish idea that linker had to provide link time optimisation and thread optimisation.Mar 14 23:22
schestowitzoiaohm: it gets support from big companiesMar 14 23:22
seller_liaroiaohm: but remember , gcc is portable ,have a lot of langugesMar 14 23:22
oiaohmSame with portland group seller_liarMar 14 23:22
schestowitzYou can't just treat it like a hobby projectMar 14 23:22
schestowitzThough I'd love to see benchmarkMar 14 23:23
schestowitzCompiler benchmarks (not Windows)Mar 14 23:23
seller_liarhow many years old the portland software have?Mar 14 23:23
oiaohmicc and portland use a releated C and C++ frount end.Mar 14 23:23
oiaohmThis year portland group is 25 seller_liarMar 14 23:23
oiaohmYes many hours of work have gone into there optimizer.Mar 14 23:24
seller_liarcan you give me a linkMar 14 23:24
oiaohmhttp://www.pgroup.com/  They are already working on auto off loading to gpu.Mar 14 23:25
oiaohmPortland group is what gcc has to catch.Mar 14 23:26
seller_liaroiaohm: is proprietaryMar 14 23:27
seller_liargcc have less resources and people researchingMar 14 23:27
seller_liarI think the real problem is lack of dependant codeMar 14 23:29
seller_liarwe must more specific codeMar 14 23:29
balzacthat's why GNU & the FSF need to shake down the fat catsMar 14 23:29
seller_liaruse liboil a bit more and spend more time wrintiing repetitive but specific codeMar 14 23:29
balzacan unprecedented fundraiserMar 14 23:29
seller_liarpeople focus a lot in portabilityMar 14 23:29
seller_liarbut people forget code optimizationMar 14 23:30
oiaohmDo I really care about proprietary when I need performance.Mar 14 23:30
seller_liaroiaohm: but , portland have more money and researchingMar 14 23:30
seller_liaroiaohm: gcc 4.4 will be betterMar 14 23:31
oiaohmPortland group also did not stuff up there design from the get go.Mar 14 23:31
oiaohmWhen gcc gets its core defects out we may see some true performance it of it.Mar 14 23:31
oiaohmThen people will wake up how badly msvc suxs in optimiser.Mar 14 23:32
seller_liaroiaohm: I don know....Mar 14 23:32
oiaohmLack of link time optimiser is a key defect.Mar 14 23:32
seller_liaroiaohm: But the better thing which we have do is to write more specific codeMar 14 23:32
balzacpgroup: are they M$-affiliated?Mar 14 23:32
schestowitzoiaohm: you are a 'pragmatist' right?Mar 14 23:32
oiaohmpgroup is cross platform balzac.Mar 14 23:33
schestowitzWhat you don't world is compiler 'lockin'Mar 14 23:33
schestowitzA world of a monopoly where one company controls how programs are builtMar 14 23:33
oiaohmpgroup does not lock you in.  There compliers are pure standard.Mar 14 23:33
schestowitzgcc decentralisesMar 14 23:33
balzacwhat license is their compiler published under?Mar 14 23:33
oiaohm proprietary balzacMar 14 23:34
schestowitzHowYaFeelPUNK Public icenceMar 14 23:34
oiaohmgcc has not passed C99 either yet.Mar 14 23:34
balzachopefully someone inside will release their code as happened to valve, so everyone can benefitMar 14 23:34
seller_liaroiaohm: maybe fsf need more resourcesMar 14 23:34
balzacc99 is probably influenced by moneyMar 14 23:35
schestowitzDoesn't Intel invest in this too?Mar 14 23:35
oiaohmNop balzacMar 14 23:35
schestowitzThey try to make gcc work better with processorsMar 14 23:35
oiaohmC99 was design to get around issues of CMar 14 23:35
schestowitzThe h/w makers of sorts....Mar 14 23:35
oiaohmMore focus of resources seller_liarMar 14 23:35
balzachardware compatibility is a battle-ground in which proprietary, open source, and free software struggle for market-share.Mar 14 23:36
oiaohmLot of optmiser work is going into edge optmisations that are not going to give much.Mar 14 23:36
seller_liaroiaohm: yes,Have you tried to contact gcc devs?Mar 14 23:36
oiaohmwith gccMar 14 23:36
balzacif there are any good tricks which can be taken from pgroup by reverse-engineering, that's niceMar 14 23:37
oiaohmhttp://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/Link...  Link time optimisation is being very hard to add to gcc.Mar 14 23:38
balzacbut I'm neither excited nor worried about compatibility with the latest hardwareMar 14 23:38
oiaohmReason programmers hacked around the core engine of gcc to make stuff work.Mar 14 23:38
balzacgamers can worry about this, video and rich-media people can worry about this.Mar 14 23:38
oiaohmGcc is basically having a massive internal cleam up so Link Time Optimisation can work.Mar 14 23:39
oiaohmThe internal mess also caused gcc to be slower than it should have been and eat more ram that is should have.Mar 14 23:39
balzacoh well... it's good enough for a lot of thingsMar 14 23:39
balzacit will continue to improveMar 14 23:40
oiaohmBasically people have been optmising the out put of gcc and forgetting to clean up gcc it self.Mar 14 23:40
oiaohmSome focus is on fixing up gcc itself.Mar 14 23:40
balzacevery so often, a project needs its core re-factoredMar 14 23:40
oiaohmGcc case would not have been needed if people did not just code in a bypass to the main struct.Mar 14 23:41
oiaohmThe bypass also limited what gcc optmisation engines could do.Mar 14 23:41
oiaohmCore design of gcc basically kicks itself hard.Mar 14 23:41
balzacI'm looking forward to the longsoon processorsMar 14 23:42
balzacand arm processorsMar 14 23:42
seller_liaroiaohm: We can use more specific code as temporaty solutionMar 14 23:42
balzaceating into the market-share of those hardware manufacturers who've been enabling proprietary software monopolyMar 14 23:42
seller_liaroiaohm: specific code is the better solution for more speedMar 14 23:42
schestowitz        > balzac> every so often, a project needs its core re-factoredMar 14 23:43
schestowitzKDE3, GNOME3, OOo tokeniser..Mar 14 23:43
schestowitzOOo antialiasing (almost half a million lines of code changed)..Mar 14 23:43
seller_liarliboil for exampple create a lot of simple algos for each type of archictectureMar 14 23:43
Balrog_seller_liar: not a good ideaMar 14 23:43
seller_liarwhy?Mar 14 23:43
Balrog_(fine in a compiler; not in your software)Mar 14 23:43
schestowitzYesMar 14 23:44
Balrog_look at early Mac OSMar 14 23:44
schestowitzBut that's not the pointMar 14 23:44
schestowitzalgos are also ASMsMar 14 23:44
Balrog_was almost 100% M68K ASMMar 14 23:44
schestowitzSo I think he meant something elseMar 14 23:44
Balrog_hand-codedMar 14 23:44
seller_liarfor example we can create code for x86 , x8664 and armMar 14 23:44
schestowitzIn HL P/L ?????Mar 14 23:44
seller_liarwe can create 3 or 4 instances of same codeMar 14 23:44
schestowitzbad ideaMar 14 23:44
seller_liarwhy?Mar 14 23:44
balzacIF YOU OTHERWISE TRANSFER POSSESSION OF ANY COPY,Mar 14 23:45
balzacMODIFICATION OR MERGED PORTION OF THE PROGRAM TO ANOTHERMar 14 23:45
balzacPARTY, YOUR LICENSE IS AUTOMATICALLY TERMINATED.Mar 14 23:45
Balrog_bad for maintenanceMar 14 23:45
oiaohmClassic case was found in reactos when complier works custom code for a solution can workout way slower than letting the complier do it.Mar 14 23:45
balzacnice use of all caps in the portland groups EULAMar 14 23:45
Balrog_fix one version, woun't fix otherMar 14 23:45
Balrog_s/u/Mar 14 23:45
seller_liarWe repeat only 10% of softwareMar 14 23:45
Balrog_you have three branches to maintain, rather than oneMar 14 23:45
Balrog_and if it's time-critical code?Mar 14 23:46
seller_liarfor example , we optimize only the most used parts of softwareMar 14 23:46
seller_liarwe don t optimize everythingMar 14 23:46
oiaohmMeans to get more speed by doing blocks of asm when it could be done in C or some other lang is a clear sign of a complier optimiser problem.Mar 14 23:46
seller_liaronly 10% odf softwareMar 14 23:46
balzac       Notwithstanding the above language, You acknowledge that as part of theMar 14 23:47
balzacSoftware you may receive Run-Time Libraries in the form of Microsoft FoundationMar 14 23:47
balzacClasses (MFCs), Active Template Libraries (ATLs), and/or “C” Runtime files (CRTs)Mar 14 23:47
balzacin binary form only (“Microsoft Distributable Code”). You acknowledge that youMar 14 23:47
balzachave the right to that Microsoft Distributable Code to design, develop or test for useMar 14 23:47
balzacwith the Software only.Mar 14 23:47
balzacportland group is distributing M$ codeMar 14 23:47
Balrog_once you're stuck with specific-to-platform code, it's terribly hard to portMar 14 23:47
oiaohmYou can get a licence for that stuff balzacMar 14 23:47
oiaohmFrom mainsoft that happens to make cross platform versions.Mar 14 23:48
balzacI would not touch it with a ten-foot poleMar 14 23:48
schestowitzI dn't trust mainsoftMar 14 23:48
schestowitzMono chumsMar 14 23:48
balzacI think the only value it could possibly have is to be reverse-engineered a bit for possible new approaches to be used in GCCMar 14 23:49
schestowitz.NET and stuff... marrying Microsoft with... stuffMar 14 23:49
oiaohmReally nothing porland group does is that special balzacMar 14 23:49
balzacbut reverse-engineering can be a waste of time too.Mar 14 23:49
oiaohmIts a simple core design things right.Mar 14 23:49
balzacoiaohm: I believe you.Mar 14 23:49
Balrog_oiaohm: so what do *you* think about LLVM and Clang?Mar 14 23:50
balzacThe all-caps portions of the license remind me of an American tourist in a foreign country, talking loud and slow to people.Mar 14 23:50
oiaohmllvm is along the right path.  Clang also along the right path.Mar 14 23:50
Balrog_all-caps are harder to readMar 14 23:50
Balrog_the license is BSDtype thoughMar 14 23:51
oiaohmllvm and clang have fairly clean designs for what they do.Mar 14 23:51
Balrog_s/Dt/D tMar 14 23:51
oiaohmPeople forget BSD have there own complier not gcc for the simple reason how much memory and researchs gcc eats up building stuff.Mar 14 23:51
schestowitzBreaking/Flashing: T-Mobile G1 Fire Sale: Handsets Under $80 < http://jkontherun.com/2009/03/13/t-m... >Mar 14 23:52
oiaohmgcc is the most bloated complier in existance due to its design flaws.Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_what compiler does BSD use?Mar 14 23:52
Balrog_(Apple uses GCC, but is contributing heavily to LLVM / Clang, by the way)Mar 14 23:52
benJImanYou can get them for free on Tmobile hereMar 14 23:52
Balrog_benJIman: where?Mar 14 23:53
benJImanTmobile shop.Mar 14 23:53
benJImanIt's only on the €£30 a month tariff.Mar 14 23:53
schestowitz'Free'Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_country?Mar 14 23:53
*kentma1 (n=user@host81-157-148-240.range81-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovellMar 14 23:53
schestowitzLike free puppyMar 14 23:53
Balrog_it's not freeMar 14 23:53
*kentma has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Mar 14 23:53
Balrog_rather subsidizedMar 14 23:53
schestowitzGet your hands washed... lots of poop and dog food comingMar 14 23:54
schestowitzSub-notebooks adopt similar methodsMar 14 23:54
schestowitziPhone tooMar 14 23:54
benJImanN97 out soon. I doubt I'll upgrade my n800 yet though.Mar 14 23:54
schestowitzIt ain't $400Mar 14 23:54
Balrog_iphone is like $500-$700 without a contractMar 14 23:54
schestowitzwith barsMar 14 23:55
benJImanStill? The hardware is not worth that any more, it was whewn it was first released.Mar 14 23:55
oiaohmbsd complier Balrog that very had to find.  Its used basically to audit source code before wasted the time passing programs through gcc.Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_hard..???Mar 14 23:55
benJImanhttp://www.youtube.com/wa...Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_oh, the BSD compilerMar 14 23:55
Balrog_not what FreeBSD and NetBSD use...Mar 14 23:55
Balrog_and OpenBSDMar 14 23:55
oiaohmOpenBSD and NetBSD use it for time saving.Mar 14 23:56
Balrog_you mean like Sun's compiler, which produces much slower code than GCC?Mar 14 23:56
_Hicham_oiaohm : gcc 4 is rather goodMar 14 23:56
schestowitzbenJIman: nice, but Pre is coming tooMar 14 23:56
oiaohm_Hicham_: you are talking about a person who has been in the internals og gcc.Mar 14 23:57
oiaohmog/ofMar 14 23:57
_Hicham_why didn't u contribute to it ?Mar 14 23:57
_Hicham_gcc is openMar 14 23:57
oiaohmThat why I went through the source code in the first place _Hicham_Mar 14 23:58
oiaohmBoth binutils and gcc have had code added against there base design.Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_well, u can even propose a complete design changeMar 14 23:59
oiaohmbinutils cannot support all platforms from one any anymore.Mar 14 23:59
_Hicham_but propose also a migration schemeMar 14 23:59
oiaohmDue to cpu/platform dependant alterations being done in the wrong places.Mar 14 23:59

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