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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 19th, 2009 - Part 1


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schestowitztacone: expect a bad week for Microsoft next weekApr 19 00:00
schestowitzThey must give shareholder a roadmapApr 19 00:00
schestowitzBe it a new product, lawsuits, whatever...Apr 19 00:00
schestowitzAs it stands, they can either pull out VIsta7 right now when it's as buggy as hellApr 19 00:01
taconedid you post about the mail from LinusApr 19 00:01
schestowitzThen see no salesApr 19 00:01
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schestowitzOr wait another year, as plannedApr 19 00:01
schestowitzWhich means anohter draught in sales.Apr 19 00:01
schestowitzand they have not reolved the netbooks problem, either.Apr 19 00:01
schestowitz*ResolvedApr 19 00:01
seller_liarThis world gets me tired !Apr 19 00:01
MinceRoh, trials from investorsApr 19 00:01
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MinceRthat would be nice.Apr 19 00:01
schestowitztacone: in IRC I sort of didApr 19 00:01
schestowitzYou can look it up. Hold on.Apr 19 00:02
seller_liarIt's very close the day which I will teach my philosophyApr 19 00:02
schestowitzseller_liar: MSFT is doing badlyApr 19 00:03
schestowitzProfit to drive sharplyApr 19 00:04
seller_liarschestowitz: Final coutdown for microsoft!Apr 19 00:04
schestowitzBut it doesn't resolve the overall problemApr 19 00:04
schestowitzThere's trouble beyond MSFTApr 19 00:04
schestowitzMaybe they can put Ballmer on top of GM or Chvron or somethingApr 19 00:04
seller_liarI know , IBM ,crapple and others like nike and coca-cola companyApr 19 00:04
schestowitzWhere he can crush people physically.Apr 19 00:04
schestowitzseller_liar: maybe Google tooApr 19 00:05
schestowitzWe don't know yet, thoughApr 19 00:05
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seller_liarMy philosohpy will change everythingApr 19 00:05
seller_liarschestowitz: It's not a jokeApr 19 00:05
seller_liarWe need port banshee to pythonApr 19 00:06
seller_liarAre there c# to python converter?Apr 19 00:06
taconelolApr 19 00:06
shreddarI read the comes petition and the ECIS finalversion PDF's as well as MS's annual report "issues and uncertainties" they all seem to point to Microsoft being very savy in cutting off competition at even the most obscure possibilities of competition.Apr 19 00:07
_Hicham_sellar_liar : still thinking about banshee?Apr 19 00:07
schestowitz"Microsoft has been has been ordered to pay $388m after being found guilty of infringing a patent held by anti-piracy software developer Uniloc." 19 00:07
schestowitzGo on, Microsoft. Go for sw pats :-)Apr 19 00:07
taconeport banshee is no senseApr 19 00:07
_Hicham_fuck bansheeApr 19 00:08
_Hicham_fuck monoApr 19 00:08
_Hicham_who needs them?Apr 19 00:08
schestowitzshreddar: yes, did you see Comes vs Microsoft?Apr 19 00:08
schestowitzshreddar: see the Wiki.Apr 19 00:08
taconeso crank up and scream on your bansheeeeApr 19 00:08
schestowitz 19 00:08
taconelinux sets you freeeeApr 19 00:08
schestowitzEsp. 19 00:08
seller_liarWe need a replacement for rhythmboxApr 19 00:09
_Hicham_sellar_liar : go write itApr 19 00:09
taconeexhaile ?Apr 19 00:09
taconeyou'd better to contribute to that, or fork it.Apr 19 00:09
schestowitztacone: LOL ... Linux sets you freApr 19 00:09
schestowitzNovell puts a bad face on Linux users...Apr 19 00:09
_Hicham_I don't use anything but AudaciousApr 19 00:09
tacone"free as in your butt (tm)"Apr 19 00:09
_Hicham_Novell taints the communityApr 19 00:09
tacone 19 00:10
schestowitzLOLApr 19 00:10
schestowitz"No ifs, no butts"Apr 19 00:10
seller_liarYes , exaile can be a good replacement too, but still incompleteApr 19 00:10
taconei copyrighted the tag. beware, be very ware :-)Apr 19 00:10
silentivmi'm happy with Music Player Daemon (MPD)Apr 19 00:10
schestowitzlook at us fighting among outselves to get rid of infectionsApr 19 00:10
schestowitzThat's what MS wantedApr 19 00:10
*amarsh04 still wants a replacement for xmms version 1.2 - realtime priority, plays all audio formats whilst using a small fraction of a PII-266 cpu power and supports MIDI output to soundcards with on-board MIDI synthesisersApr 19 00:11
schestowitzIf we don't remove the infection then it pulls a TomTomApr 19 00:11
schestowitzLet's conin somethingApr 19 00:11
schestowitzLike "pull a TomTom"Apr 19 00:11
amarsh04I've recompiled xmms 1.2 a few times since Debian stopped supporting itApr 19 00:11
schestowitzMeaning, "planting some software in rivals and suing them when it's too deep in there"Apr 19 00:11
taconelike pull the finger ?Apr 19 00:11
schestowitzIf we say that Mono is "pulling a TomTom" then people will understandApr 19 00:11
taconeyou take the mono and they fart ?Apr 19 00:12
schestowitzAnd maybe associate Mono with risk of lawsuit from a lying SCO-like companyApr 19 00:12
_Hicham_Audacious just rocksApr 19 00:12
seller_liarBanshee converted to python is not banshee anymoreApr 19 00:12
schestowitztacone: too far, I thinkApr 19 00:12
_Hicham_Audacious is Winamp in Linux worldApr 19 00:12
taconethat was not serious.Apr 19 00:12
schestowitzseller_liar: but Novell controls BansheeApr 19 00:12
schestowitzI think it 'bought' the devApr 19 00:13
amarsh04all the descended from xmms packages take far more cpu load than xmms 1.xApr 19 00:13
shreddarI want to know if Mono will backfire if the patents get rejected.Apr 19 00:13
_Hicham_sellar_liar is in love with bansheeApr 19 00:13
taconealso gnome-do seems to do very well.Apr 19 00:13
taconebanshee is pretty nice, beside crashes.Apr 19 00:13
seller_liarNo, I m not in loveApr 19 00:13
taconebut nothing that far from exhaile.Apr 19 00:13
schestowitztacone: I know, but I start to associate mono with methane.Apr 19 00:13
_Hicham_fuck gnome-do and its mono backendApr 19 00:13
seller_liarBut , rhythmbox is not developed anymore!Apr 19 00:14
_Hicham_get rid of mono if u r on UbuntuApr 19 00:14
taconeit wasn't developed even before :-)Apr 19 00:14
amarsh04I have yet to get hardware acceleration with an ATI radeon 3200 hd... I may have to find another video card that supports acceleration with free driversApr 19 00:14
taconethe problem is not to fork or port current applictationsApr 19 00:14
taconeis to propose better ones.Apr 19 00:14
seller_liartacone: exaile ?Apr 19 00:15
taconezeitgeist and gnome-shell are good examples.Apr 19 00:15
taconeexaileApr 19 00:15
taconenice, but even more crashy than banshee.Apr 19 00:15
schestowitz found contains good placeApr 19 00:15
taconebeside the freezes, it's pretty nice.Apr 19 00:15
schestowitzMicrosoft licences too expensive, say schools <,1000... >Apr 19 00:16
taconewith banshee starting to support videos, it won't be easy though.Apr 19 00:16
seller_liartacone: port a app is a lot easy thans develop an app from scratchApr 19 00:17
taconeseller_liar: go improve exaile.Apr 19 00:17
seller_liardevs uses languages converters like java2cApr 19 00:17
_Hicham_sellar_liar : who told u that?Apr 19 00:17
seller_liartacone: ok , probably exaile is in launchpadApr 19 00:17
taconeseller_liar: read my lips, c# -> python converter do not existApr 19 00:17
amarsh04even if an existing app just provides a benchmark in features and ease of use, it helps one develop a competing productApr 19 00:18
shreddarI wonder why QT cant be used in place of .NET or Java? (for cross-platform development)Apr 19 00:20
seller_liarshreddar: novuel "owns" gnomeApr 19 00:20
MinceRprobably because people are too lame to code in C++Apr 19 00:20
taconeexaile is in launchpad and uses PPA.Apr 19 00:21
*tacone can't code in c/c++Apr 19 00:21
seller_liarme tooApr 19 00:22
shreddarWell the way I understand it C++ and Jave are kinda the same.Apr 19 00:22
seller_liarI don t like c, c++ , but I like java a lot!Apr 19 00:22
taconeby the way, what tomboy demonstratedApr 19 00:22
PetoKrauswellApr 19 00:22
PetoKrausqt is a toolkitApr 19 00:22
seller_liarshreddar: Pointer and a mixture of c and c++ is very uglyApr 19 00:22
taconeis that "This show me that the door is open to reimplementing Gtk# software (orApr 19 00:22
taconeparts) in C++ with not too many problems, making it easy to have themApr 19 00:22
taconeavailable for C applications."Apr 19 00:22
PetoKrausit's not a programming languageApr 19 00:23
tacone" It is actually not that hard, just a lot of work to do manually because there is over a dozen of thousands of lines of code."Apr 19 00:23
PetoKrausseller_liar: ugly? :)Apr 19 00:23
shreddarOhApr 19 00:23
PetoKraussome people call Java being ugly for being bloated... :)Apr 19 00:24
seller_liarPetoKraus: java is very extensibleApr 19 00:24
seller_liarPetoKraus: AspectJ , contracts and other thj]iingsApr 19 00:24
seller_liarPetoKraus: c and c++ is ....poooorApr 19 00:25
PetoKrausdidn't use any of them. I just didn't like itApr 19 00:25
PetoKrauspython was more appealing to me than java from the beginningApr 19 00:25
PetoKrausespecially because of the added non-OOP paradigmApr 19 00:25
shreddarC and C++ will likely not be replaced untill machine code can be written from another OO language AFAIK.Apr 19 00:26
seller_liarPetoKraus: python is more easy and functionalApr 19 00:26
PetoKrausyeahApr 19 00:26
PetoKrausshreddar: i don't think C/C++ will be replaced soonApr 19 00:26
PetoKrauslook at fortranApr 19 00:26
seller_liarshreddar: Eiffel uses c as intermediate lkanguage/Apr 19 00:26
PetoKrausit's very very old, but still usedApr 19 00:26
PetoKrausbecause of legacy softApr 19 00:27
seller_liarC is good only for to be a intermediate language nowApr 19 00:27
taconepython is going to get a big boost from google in a year or two.Apr 19 00:27
schestowitzLinux is getting a boost from subnotebooks and Microsoft dives 19 00:27
MinceRin c++ you can do actual memory managementApr 19 00:27
MinceRand you can make mistakes with itApr 19 00:27
PetoKraus^^Apr 19 00:27
MinceRbut at least your app won't take half an hour to start and won't eat your ram.Apr 19 00:27
PetoKrausyou DO make mistakes with itApr 19 00:27
taconefirst link is pay onlyApr 19 00:27
seller_liarschestowitz: We need to do a ethics campaignApr 19 00:27
PetoKrausethics?Apr 19 00:28
PetoKrauswhat's thatApr 19 00:28
seller_liarseller_liar: Show the reality for all peopleApr 19 00:28
seller_liarPetoKraus: People does not like ethicsApr 19 00:28
seller_liarPetoKraus: we need to promove ethicsApr 19 00:28
PetoKrausin what senseApr 19 00:28
PetoKrausethics is quite vague wordApr 19 00:29
seller_liarPetoKraus: People only thinks in personal desiresApr 19 00:29
seller_liarPetoKraus: People must think about global problems , not only in personal problemsApr 19 00:29
PetoKrauswellApr 19 00:29
PetoKraus"people must" is wrong to start withApr 19 00:29
schestowitzHehe.Apr 19 00:30
seller_liarPetoKraus: People focus too much in personal choices (for example , people chooses proprietary software instead of free softwareApr 19 00:30
schestowitzWell, seller_liar raises an important pointApr 19 00:30
schestowitzbecause it's know that authorities and companies deliberately isolate peopleApr 19 00:30
schestowitzIt makes people a lot more vulnerableApr 19 00:30
PetoKraussecondly, there's nothing wrong with using proprietary software, if you feel like itApr 19 00:30
PetoKrausthoughApr 19 00:30
schestowitzBut people tend to think they are invincible aprtApr 19 00:30
PetoKrausi don't feel like itApr 19 00:30
schestowitzWhich is an illusion reallyApr 19 00:30
schestowitzThere are cases where one ethnic groups is knocked againat another by the elitesApr 19 00:31
PetoKrauswellApr 19 00:31
schestowitzExamples being drug wars, cold war, invasion of Iraq ('war' on Islam)Apr 19 00:31
PetoKrausthis is a bit of a far shot from softwareApr 19 00:31
PetoKrausisn't it.Apr 19 00:31
schestowitzIt makes people not revognise the real enemyApr 19 00:31
PetoKrausthe problem as far as i understand itApr 19 00:31
schestowitzAnd people are sometimes treated like enemies across the border, even by own authoritiesApr 19 00:31
seller_liarProprietary software is a problem when there are more than free softwareApr 19 00:31
PetoKrausis not trying to win the users from microsoftApr 19 00:32
schestowitzThis is a well-established thesisApr 19 00:32
PetoKrausbut the problem is to get equal ground from vendors (HW/SW)Apr 19 00:32
PetoKrausfor both, FOSS and closed platformsApr 19 00:32
schestowitzPetoKraus: It's not about MicrosoftApr 19 00:32
seller_liarschestowitz: For example , people does not spend 10% free time to learn a new free operating systemApr 19 00:32
schestowitzGNU was never about MS, eitherApr 19 00:32
seller_liarPetoKraus: : For example , people does not spend 10% free time to learn a new free operating systemApr 19 00:32
schestowitzIt was created to address broader issuesApr 19 00:32
PetoKrausschestowitz: you don't need to explain that to me :)Apr 19 00:33
schestowitz:-)Apr 19 00:33
amarsh04ms didn't make the laser printer that rms wanted the specs forApr 19 00:33
seller_liarsooryApr 19 00:33
PetoKrausit was xerox, yeahApr 19 00:33
seller_liarInstead people waste all the time in proprietary softwareApr 19 00:33
shreddarProprietary software is mostly a probablem for people who can program. All anyone else wants is a application that works.Apr 19 00:33
seller_liarYou see?Apr 19 00:33
seller_liarProprietary software -> selfish choiceApr 19 00:34
PetoKraushm that's gross generalisationApr 19 00:34
shreddarand is cheap or free.Apr 19 00:34
seller_liarFree software -> less selfish choice, more ethical choiceApr 19 00:34
PetoKrauswell it doesn't have much with selfishnessApr 19 00:34
seller_liarPetoKraus: sorry , use ONLY proprietary soiftware , more than free software is a unethical choiceApr 19 00:34
amarsh04If I get to the root cause of a software or hardware problem, I want to tell others about it... even if it was "I should have reset the BIOS to defaults after performing a BIOS upgrade"Apr 19 00:35
schestowitzReport: Jobs still in control at Apple < > And all the fanbis go "har ha har!"Apr 19 00:35
PetoKrausit does have hell-of-a-lot with transparency etcApr 19 00:35
MinceRi wonder if he'll still be in control after he dies :>Apr 19 00:35
seller_liarJobs must die!!!Apr 19 00:35
MinceRindeedApr 19 00:35
seller_liarJobs have a lot of lobby and unsjust system behind himApr 19 00:36
amarsh04speaking of which, I would love for my next pc to run coreboot... with the opengraphics project video card, that may actually be feasibleApr 19 00:36
PetoKraushehApr 19 00:36
schestowitzamarsh04: you haven't commented in LT for a whileApr 19 00:36
amarsh04no schestowitz, I'm about 27 days behind in LTApr 19 00:36
amarsh04slowly catching up on LTApr 19 00:36
schestowitzamarsh04: Carla posted  photos todayApr 19 00:37
amarsh04what of, schestowitz?Apr 19 00:37
schestowitzSuburbsApr 19 00:37
schestowitzI assume she lives somewhere at the heard of the USian lands.Apr 19 00:37
schestowitz*heartApr 19 00:37
PetoKrausamarsh04: my southbridge is WIPApr 19 00:37
amarsh04she has indicated that she lives in a semi-rural area schestowitzApr 19 00:38
schestowitzUPDATE: Tech Indus Group ECIS To Testify In EU Microsoft Probe < >Apr 19 00:39
schestowitzWow. Microsoft is totally fragmented: http://blog.seattletimes.nwsou...Apr 19 00:41
PetoKraushmm: 2008/10/28 Intel 945, ICH7, Core Duo/Core 2 Duo, and Kontron 986LCD-M/mITX now supportedApr 19 00:41
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amarsh04in coreboot, PetoKraus?Apr 19 00:41
PetoKrausyupApr 19 00:41
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PetoKrausmight be nice to skip grubApr 19 00:42
schestowitzMaureen O'Gara: "vmware Continues To Reek of Microsoft"Apr 19 00:42
schestowitzDuh :-)Apr 19 00:42
amarsh04I'm amazed at the level of activity with grub yet still not being feature completeApr 19 00:43
PetoKraus:DApr 19 00:43
_Hicham_amarsh04 : there is nothing completeApr 19 00:43
_Hicham_everything can be improvedApr 19 00:43
shreddarOn the browser case I doubt the EU will force MS to add other browsers just like the DOJ didn't split them up 9 years ago. But maybe I'm being synical.Apr 19 00:43
schestowitzUS jury orders Microsoft to pay $500m to Australian inventor < >Apr 19 00:44
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schestowitzI'm bored. Going to bed...Apr 19 01:02
taconegnApr 19 01:03
MinceRgnApr 19 01:35
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air_... installed debian at lastApr 19 01:47
air_mandriva was definitely easier to useApr 19 01:47
_Hicham_air_ : good for uApr 19 01:47
_Hicham_air_ : why did u switch?Apr 19 01:47
air_'cause i wanted to switch for no reasonApr 19 01:48
air_just got tired of mandrivaApr 19 01:48
_Hicham_how was the transition?Apr 19 01:48
air_it's still not finishedApr 19 01:48
air_'cause firstly i got some insane video modeApr 19 01:49
_Hicham_did u have firmware problems?Apr 19 01:49
air_firmware?Apr 19 01:49
_Hicham_is that debian lenny?Apr 19 01:49
air_yeahApr 19 01:49
air_it set up 1920xsmth 60hz firstlyApr 19 01:49
air_my eyes almost fell offApr 19 01:49
air_then i gtf 1280 1024 100 and put it into xorg.confApr 19 01:50
_Hicham_it is not a big issueApr 19 01:50
air_it set it up but it made not 100hz but 60hzApr 19 01:50
air_it's crt monitor hereApr 19 01:50
_Hicham_go to gnome control centerApr 19 01:50
air_i still don't know how to set up 100hzApr 19 01:50
_Hicham_does ur monitor support it?Apr 19 01:51
air_yeahApr 19 01:51
air_where's gnome control center?Apr 19 01:51
air_there's "screen resolution" in system-->preferencesApr 19 01:52
_Hicham_yesApr 19 01:52
air_but it doesn't actually workApr 19 01:52
_Hicham_u must then configure xorg.conf manuallyApr 19 01:53
air_that's what i didApr 19 01:53
air_and it's still 60 :))Apr 19 01:53
_Hicham_what card do u have?Apr 19 01:54
air_radeon hd4870Apr 19 01:54
air_ <-- here's my new xorg.confApr 19 01:55
air_gotta try to reboot and check if it sets 100hz now :)Apr 19 02:00
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air_seems like debian will kill meApr 19 02:24
air_even though i like how gnome looksApr 19 02:24
_Hicham_why?Apr 19 02:26
_Hicham_same issue?Apr 19 02:26
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air_yeah, _Hicham_ same problemApr 19 02:34
_Hicham_what driver are u using?Apr 19 02:35
air_hm... idkApr 19 02:35
_Hicham_the open source radeonhd?Apr 19 02:35
air_yeahApr 19 02:35
air_i tried to install itApr 19 02:35
air_but it said that it's already latestApr 19 02:35
air_looks like i should somehow change id of monitorApr 19 02:36
_Hicham_were u using the open source radeonhd driver on mandriva too?Apr 19 02:38
_Hicham_or was it fglrx?Apr 19 02:39
air_i almost didn't use mandriva at homeApr 19 02:39
air_it just set up some 70-75hz mode and it was kinda enoughApr 19 02:39
_Hicham_this is not debian specificApr 19 02:40
air_later i installed it into virtual pc and it was enough too :)Apr 19 02:40
_Hicham_i am talking about the driverApr 19 02:40
air_yeah, i suspect it's x-server specificApr 19 02:40
_Hicham_was it radeonhd or fglrx?Apr 19 02:41
air_radeonhdApr 19 02:41
air_should somehow kill it and install fglrx?Apr 19 02:41
_Hicham_if u were using on mandriva, there is no reason that it shouldn't work on debianApr 19 02:43
_Hicham_it is the sameApr 19 02:43
air_gonna sleep... may be the problem will fix itselfApr 19 02:50
air_it promisedApr 19 02:50
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ZiggyFishI like these headlines that try to control your mind - You will upgrade to NetworkManager 0.7.1Apr 19 04:53
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schestowitzheyApr 19 07:21
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schestowitzNo Surprise Here: NSA Abused Surveillance Powers 19 09:36
schestowitzBrilliant response to attacks on Google: Why Are Newspapers Exploiting The People They Cover? < >Apr 19 09:42
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schestowitzGNU/Linux is quietly and gradually ruining Microsoft: 19 11:16
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oiaohmYep the slow bleed of MS.Apr 19 11:33
oiaohmIs MS earning report out yet.Apr 19 11:33
schestowitzGlad you liked it.Apr 19 11:42
schestowitzoiaohm: I think it's out around 26th, the usualApr 19 11:43
oiaohmSo no leaks.Apr 19 11:45
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_Hicham_Hi oiaohmApr 19 11:46
oiaohmHi _Hicham_Apr 19 11:47
oiaohm  See this yet.Apr 19 11:47
oiaohm  << Kinda messes with the idea of needing different linux kernels.Apr 19 11:49
_Hicham_oiaohm : I disagree with that ideaApr 19 11:54
_Hicham_it is a bad idea to offer blobs free kernelApr 19 11:54
_Hicham_the user experience will be crippledApr 19 11:54
oiaohmReally fireware blobs are being split off into a different package.Apr 19 11:55
oiaohmCurrently having to update kernel and blobs at the same time is bad.Apr 19 11:55
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_Hicham_very badApr 19 11:55
oiaohmI agree they have no place in the Linux kernel source code.Apr 19 11:56
_Hicham_of courseApr 19 11:56
oiaohmBut not being able to use them I don't agree with.Apr 19 11:56
_Hicham_it nonesenseApr 19 11:56
oiaohmYet that was still a single kernel for multiable distributions.Apr 19 11:56
_Hicham_as gNewSenseApr 19 11:56
_Hicham_cripple the user experienceApr 19 11:56
_Hicham_why remove those blobs?Apr 19 11:56
_Hicham_the user should have the possibility to use themApr 19 11:57
oiaohmIt is a good assessment tool.Apr 19 11:57
oiaohmOver time lots of binary blobs have disappeared.Apr 19 11:57
_Hicham_but what if the vendor don't want to release the code?Apr 19 11:58
_Hicham_even if it is old stuff?Apr 19 11:58
_Hicham_what about older hardware?Apr 19 11:58
_Hicham_do we have to run windows instead?Apr 19 11:58
oiaohmIts the older hardware that the reversers had been at that has the disappearing binary blobs.Apr 19 11:58
oiaohmAs I said assessment tool.Apr 19 11:59
oiaohmFor the simple point of spoting areas where blobs could be over used.Apr 19 11:59
oiaohmOr even be breach of licence.Apr 19 11:59
_Hicham_I seeApr 19 12:00
_Hicham_once the reversing is complete, the blobs disappearApr 19 12:00
oiaohmFor genernal usage I would never recommend a kernel without firmware loading support.Apr 19 12:00
oiaohmA few cases the blobs have been found to be illegal.Apr 19 12:01
oiaohmBecause they way there were they should have been GPL as well.Apr 19 12:01
_Hicham_because of linking them against GPL code?Apr 19 12:02
oiaohmYep.Apr 19 12:02
oiaohmMore like moded GPL code inside.Apr 19 12:02
oiaohmComplete breaches.Apr 19 12:02
oiaohmgnewsense need is really to make sure everyone plays fair.Apr 19 12:02
_Hicham_no one plays fairApr 19 12:03
_Hicham_Mandriva offer a CD filled with proprietary drivers and componentsApr 19 12:03
_Hicham_Ubuntu contains hardware firmware as well as fedoraApr 19 12:04
_Hicham_Debian splitted themApr 19 12:04
_Hicham_Debian is the only one who is really doing a neat job in being freeApr 19 12:05
oiaohmDebian has followed kernel developers instructions.Apr 19 12:05
oiaohmReason is firmware will start being updated out of sync with kernel versions.Apr 19 12:05
_Hicham_I remarked thatApr 19 12:06
_Hicham_Debian offer binary firmwares updatesApr 19 12:06
_Hicham_Fedora alsoApr 19 12:06
_Hicham_but Fedora ships them out of the boxApr 19 12:06
oiaohmBasically each firmware comes from a different makerApr 19 12:08
oiaohmAnd could be updated at different times.Apr 19 12:08
oiaohmFirewares are being forced to make there interfaces standard.Apr 19 12:09
oiaohmGoal is to allow them to be shared with solarias and freebsd as well.Apr 19 12:09
oiaohmThis should work because firmwares should not be OS dependant.Apr 19 12:10
_Hicham_that would be great if the interfaces kept cleanApr 19 12:10
_Hicham_and unifiedApr 19 12:10
_Hicham_and that would ease the reversing processApr 19 12:11
_Hicham_the modsetting works great with fedora by the wayApr 19 12:12
_Hicham_the only problem is with compizApr 19 12:12
_Hicham_if u want compiz, u must disable modsettingApr 19 12:12
oiaohmThere is a prototype compiz supporting dri2Apr 19 12:14
oiaohmDoes it have problems with KMS.Apr 19 12:14
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schestowitzWhat Microsoft is doing in other companies is too transparent to see: 19 12:22
oiaohmvmwares actions may turn out good.Apr 19 12:26
oiaohmgaluim3d support in windows would weaken MS location.Apr 19 12:26
schestowitzvmware won't fight MicrosoftApr 19 12:27
schestowitzThey can'tApr 19 12:27
schestowitzit's their friendsApr 19 12:27
schestowitzFormer colleaguesApr 19 12:27
schestowitzIIRC, VMware's new  CEO , COO and CTO (that last one I'm not sure about) are from MicrosoftApr 19 12:27
_Hicham_Hi schestowitzApr 19 12:29
schestowitzHey!Apr 19 12:31
schestowitzI've been quiet because I wrote things quickly and I must hurryApr 19 12:31
schestowitzI'll be back in 2 hoursApr 19 12:35
MinceRgeekingsApr 19 12:37
*magentar (n=magentar@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 19 12:47
_Hicham_oiaohm will KMS improve by 2.6.30?Apr 19 13:06
oiaohmKMS is not the major problem.Apr 19 13:11
oiaohmGaluim3d missing is a major problem.Apr 19 13:12
oiaohmcompiz still designed for dri1 being around is also a problem.Apr 19 13:12
_Hicham_can't compiz be ported to dri2?Apr 19 13:13
oiaohmIn there development tree there is a dri2 version.Apr 19 13:13
oiaohmpast compiz depends on a lot of X11 hacks.Apr 19 13:13
oiaohmIts basically a complete rewirte.Apr 19 13:13
_Hicham_in dri2 there is no X11 hacks?Apr 19 13:14
oiaohmNo need for them.Apr 19 13:14
_Hicham_that would be very goodApr 19 13:15
_Hicham_clean code is greatApr 19 13:15
_Hicham_no maintainance overheadsApr 19 13:15
oiaohmAt the rate parts are lining up 2.6.31 might be the kernel that good graphical for a lot of cards appear.Apr 19 13:19
oiaohmATI driver developers have accepted dri2 and gem has passed the point of no return.Apr 19 13:20
oiaohmSo future drivers have to support it.Apr 19 13:20
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oiaohmThis really shows the difference between open spec and not. 19 13:34
oiaohmAlso notice that radeonhd drivers are slipping behind normal radeon.Apr 19 13:38
MinceRwhich is which?Apr 19 13:39
*MinceR doesn't have any ati gpus so he doesn't really keep track of themApr 19 13:40
oiaohmnouveau is nvidia without spec.Apr 19 13:40
MinceRoh, i mean radeonhd vs radeonApr 19 13:40
oiaohm(RHD) in there title is radeonhdApr 19 13:41
taconeschestowitz: pingApr 19 13:43
MinceRso none of the FLOSS drivers do full 3d acceleration or ati or nvidiaApr 19 13:43
oiaohmNot yet.Apr 19 13:45
oiaohmGaluim3d will be required for a large section of the 3d acceleration.Apr 19 13:46
MinceRhm, what about proprietary drivers, which is better now?Apr 19 13:46
oiaohmNvidias.Apr 19 13:46
oiaohmAfter the mesa updates to support 3d most like Nvidia will be second.Apr 19 13:47
MinceRicApr 19 13:47
oiaohmNon 3d features normal radeon is almost complete.Apr 19 13:48
oiaohmGLSL optmiser is also in Galuim3dApr 19 13:49
oiaohmNotice the list the open source nvidia driver is trying to do is a lot shorter than radeons.Apr 19 13:52
MinceRindeedApr 19 13:52
oiaohmThey have to reverse everything.Apr 19 13:54
oiaohmATI guys have it way simpler.Apr 19 13:54
oiaohmMore sections of the ATI list should be complete inside 1 month.Apr 19 13:55
oiaohmThis could one and for all prove the major problem why Linux cannot have good drivers open source is specs.Apr 19 13:56
trmancooiaohm, are you a driver developer? you really seem to know a lot about that stuff :-PApr 19 13:57
MinceRthe major problem is that the hw vendors don't careApr 19 14:03
oiaohmI follow a lot of the driver developers mailing lists trmancoApr 19 14:11
trmancooiaohm, I better start doing that... I follow a lot of them, but none have to do with driversApr 19 14:12
*trmanco opens um Thunderbird and searches Gmane's new serverApr 19 14:12
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trmanco 19 14:28
oiaohm  << Its fun watching things like this move though mailing lists trmancoApr 19 14:29
trmancoI wish I could understand half of what he wroteApr 19 14:32
oiaohm  << This is not really that complex.  Controlling how much device time applications get.  So you don't end up with a program taking the all the device access.Apr 19 14:38
oiaohmAt the price of everything else.Apr 19 14:38
*_mre|666 ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 19 14:41
trmancoAnnouncing the Release Candidate for Ubuntu 9.04 on ARM: 19 14:41
*amarsh04 just wrote a post on the opengraphics mailing list about ATI firmwareApr 19 14:45
oiaohmabout:robots  lol mozilla guys have a idea of fun.Apr 19 14:46
oiaohmNewer generation ATI cards don't have what you call a normal firmware.Apr 19 14:47
oiaohmThey have a atombios.Apr 19 14:47
amarsh04yes, I'm not familiar with atombios and stated as much in my postApr 19 14:48
trmancocool -> 19 14:48
oiaohmatombios lives on video card.  Its a platform netural byte code designed to provide OS with enough information to interface with video card in a cpu netural way.Apr 19 14:51
oiaohmBasically 1 driver to rule them all.Apr 19 14:51
oiaohmOlder cards are not designed that way.Apr 19 14:52
trmancooiaohm, what do you mean by older? they started including atombios starting with what chip model?Apr 19 14:53
oiaohmr500 designs and up have atiombioses.Apr 19 14:54
trmancoah ok, then I'm oldApr 19 14:56
oiaohmOld designs before amd took over the company.Apr 19 14:56
oiaohmAmd wants OS makers to have a fairly simple time getting basic support with there cards.Apr 19 14:57
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oiaohm"2D setup registers for the card, are still undocumented."  Yep you have a novell style coder amarsh04.   Amd has not documented that because basic 2d setup on latter cards should be done threw atombios.Apr 19 15:02
oiaohm_cp are code patches.  Cards will fire up without them but there will be glitches.  Think of them as equal to intel microcode patches.Apr 19 15:03
amarsh04what oiaohm? I'm not suprised that the wiki isn't perfect... have you posted some feedback to get them to correct the page?Apr 19 15:03
oiaohmAnd prior to r500 sections are covered by licencing agreements.Apr 19 15:05
oiaohm_cp patches don't alter the interfaces to the card.Apr 19 15:07
schestowitzOOXML & funny bizniz: 19 15:07
oiaohmFastest video (textured XvMC)  << That is not 2d code.   That is using GPU.Apr 19 15:12
trmancoI dont have thatApr 19 15:12
trmancoXvMC, if I activate that and put some video in fullscreen it's choppyApr 19 15:13
trmancodoesn't that prevent video tearing or something?Apr 19 15:13
oiaohmamarsh04: basically 2d support is complete in the ati drivers.  All GPU level stuff is still waiting.  KMS completion is really the last bit of 2d support.Apr 19 15:14
oiaohmIf your card truly supports it it works well trmancoApr 19 15:14
trmancoR400 based chipApr 19 15:15
oiaohmLook at list.Apr 19 15:15
trmancomust be the driver, maybe too old and it didn't get the video tearing patch setApr 19 15:15
oiaohmNo open source ati driver does so you fall back to software rendering.Apr 19 15:15
oiaohmYep choppy.Apr 19 15:15
trmancolet me checkApr 19 15:17
trmancoyepApr 19 15:17
trmancowith XV and no XVApr 19 15:17
trmancoI'm talking about the gstreamer prefsApr 19 15:17
trmancoif I activate XV it's choppy, if I don't video tears but it's fluidApr 19 15:18
oiaohmXV blocks tears.Apr 19 15:19
oiaohmBut there is more than one level of XV for performance.Apr 19 15:19
trmancoyeah, but the video playback sucksApr 19 15:20
oiaohm Faster video (textured Xv)Apr 19 15:20
trmancoit also activates XhsmApr 19 15:20
trmancowhatever that isApr 19 15:20
oiaohmIs what you are most likely using.Apr 19 15:20
oiaohmBasically decent support you need XvMCApr 19 15:21
oiaohmWhere some of the load is off loaded to video cards gpu.Apr 19 15:21
oiaohm  There is a option on closed source drivers to enable it trmancoApr 19 15:23
trmancowhen I used that driver back then, the video wouldn't tearApr 19 15:24
trmancodon't know if it was already using XV or notApr 19 15:25
trmancoI moved to the open source driver because it would freeze XApr 19 15:25
amarsh04thanks oiaohmApr 19 15:25
oiaohmGPU section of video cards is one of the hardest sections to code.Apr 19 15:26
oiaohmYet the coders are talking about having most of that done in a few months.Apr 19 15:27
oiaohmtrmanco: it will improve as more stuff comes on line.Apr 19 15:27
oiaohmamarsh04: big one Novell and Amd had dispute over the 2d section.  Novell wanted to go straight to card.  AMD wanted it though atombios so base driver worked no matter the ATI card inserted.Apr 19 15:29
oiaohmPersonally I agree with AMD judgement.   They do provide disasm tool for the atombios so you can get the direct 2d interfaces for a card if you want.Apr 19 15:30
oiaohmJust they discourage going that way.Apr 19 15:31
oiaohmI am off to bed good night allApr 19 15:31
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*magentar (n=magentar@ has joined #boycottnovellApr 19 16:01
trmancololApr 19 16:01
trmancoAMI BIOS detected: BIOS may corrupt low RAM, working it around.Apr 19 16:01
trmancosmart eh :-PApr 19 16:01
amarsh04yes, I've seen that messageApr 19 16:02
trmancochecking my logs to see if the system is running smoothApr 19 16:02
trmancoeverything tunning smoothApr 19 16:10
trmancooopsApr 19 16:10
trmancorunning*Apr 19 16:10
schestowitzSomeone has just pointed that while we speak about hardware (Linux), many applications will likely move online, even MS Office. We need to ensure control is preserved if programs are moved on-line.Apr 19 16:18
schestowitzThe weakening of Microsoft is not an endless happy endingApr 19 16:18
schestowitzIt used to be IBMApr 19 16:18
schestowitzApple and Google present issues tooApr 19 16:18
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*conley ( has joined #boycottnovellApr 19 17:01

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