Re: Features only a developer could love

[Fabien Ninoles <ninf01@GEL.USherb.CA>]

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On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Mike Neuffer wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Feb 1997, Bruce Perens wrote:
> 
> > From: Fabien Ninoles <ninf01@GEL.USherb.CA>
> > > If USERS can have 
> > > choice between upgrading by binaries or by source, this can only make 
> > > debian more attractive and useful.
> > 
> > I think we may have a problem here. Debian's development is driven by the
> > developers. This is at once an advantage and a pitfall. Developers tend to
> > add features that only developers could love.
> > 
> > I sincerely doubt that there is a significant number of people who want to
> > build their entire system from source (10 people will chime in "I do!", but
> > you are the developers). However, I agree it's nice to know you _could_
> > build the system from source, and we need that capability to do ports
> > anyway, so we're working on it.
> 
> Bruce you are VERY wrong here.
> 
> There are far more people who want to do that.
> Read the ISP lists for example. You would be astonished about the
> responses you would get there.
> 
> Those people would just LOVE to have something like this..
> Many of them already recompile every single binary themselves.
> 
> Or think about standalone industrial systems. The application that we are
> developing here, will only be sold in one big package, including hardware
> and everything. The whole system will be installed either by duming an
> image from tape or CDROM on the disks and we wouldn't even consider
> putting there a system that we didn't compile ourselves in an very
> controlled environment. 
> 
> Debian developers are only a tiny minority against this.
> 

First sorry of the long mail. I would like to be more conceive (it's this 
word exist?) but my leak of english force me to explain carefully what I 
say, without being sure to be better understand whatever :/ . I take 
time too to write this and if you're not sure about what I'm trying to 
say, please ask before flaming me, it could be simply a misunderstanding.
Also, I think this topic should go in debian-devel. I will not reply in
cause may be I misunderstand (I begin to hate this word ;) the purpose 
and I'm replying to important person, but if think too it could, please 
do it. People have to know about this. Having say that...

I agreed and disagree with both of you. 

What we have: 

A wonderful (even more than rpm ;) packaging system than enable users to
assemble piece by piece it's own Debian system with having to trouble some by
compiling anything or just the necessary (such as the kernel). The 
binaries packages let us configure and managed anything. You can do 
wonders just as it is right now. Just look at dftp or the Debian Package 
finder. I can even works on a patcher distribution. OK, the interface 
needs to be revamp and maybe some work should be done on security issue, 
but this can be done *without* changing anything to the package format. 
Remember, if it's not broken, don't fix it!

What we need: the same thing but for the source. I really think that's 
the current standard on the source format needs to be review a little bit.
People want some features that I think we can implement it without 
putting everything upside-down. Examples:

* Can be build entirely from the scratch 

If we can get to the new format, adding some "source dependencies" (what you
need to build a source) and a little script or makefile can help. The command
"build" from debmake already does everything straight forward for debmake. 
You then just need to do debian -i on the package.

* Build entirely from the upstream. 

The target get-orig-source are supposed to do it (I know, it's not mandatory
but it's could be a must). But may be it was more praticle if we use autoconf
or other "makefile compiler" to gain a better control?  Must GNU package
already used it with not us? Mostly, automation might easier to achieve with
it. And, IMHO, this can be done without having to change so much the current
source format

* Upgrading the source with a cvsup like command.

This one it's more difficult and could impose more change... FreeBSD 
looks like they have a well organized source tree that help very much in 
using cvs. Each packages have their place and each files too. Delicate 
upgrade are handle by the core team and I don't think they can support an 
open development of 200 developpers. May be could we be little bit less 
ambitious. We already have dpkg-source who can build a package from the 
orig.tar.gz with the .diff and .dsc. We have get-orig-source who can 
build .orig.tar.gz. May be we can add another diff between orig.tar.gz 
release? I'm pretty sure we can approach the objectif far enough with 
that without breaking the open quality of Debian.

<end of examples>

As I say before, I'm trying too to work on a debian patcher for binaries. 
I try to do it in all respect of the packaging scheme and without adding 
any depencencies to the standard development. If people don't want it, I 
and some friends of mine, will be alone to use it. Whatever, it could be 
a good add-on.

All IMVHO,

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 true* (1)             - do nothing, successfully
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Fabien Ninoles aka le Veneur aka le Corbeau     
E-mail: fab@tzone.org
WebPage: http://www-edu.gel.usherb.ca/ninf01 
E-mail me with "get pgp key" in the subject to get my public key
PGP KEY [E3723845]: 1C C1 4F A6 EE E5 4D 99  4F 80 2D 2D 1F 85 C1 70 
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