Re: Debian GNU/Linux Logo chosen

[Dale Scheetz <dwarf@polaris.net>]

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Benedikt Eric Heinen wrote:

> > The logo chosen emphasizes the Linux connection (it has a penguin), but
> > it is different enough from "Tux" that we can trademark it, and it has
> > artistic merit.
> 
> I can't see a penguin on that logo. You sure it's not a sparrow or
> something?
> 
> You sure, that someone who heard of Linux will ever find this CD to be
> related with Debian if he saw the logo? I don't think so.

What you say would be true no matter what logo we choose. A logo gets
identified with a product by its association with that product. Until you
do the associating, there can be no recognition.

> > We had a contest with votes. The contest went on for an awful long time,
> > (someone said two years???). The most popular logo in the contest was not
> > one that we could trademark, and it was very similar to logos used by
> > similar products. We could not have used it for that reason.
> 
> Nice thing you state that now - after choosing a logo. 

Why would Bruce be responsible for keeping you up-to-date with the state
of affairs. The web pages have been there forever! You have been free to
follow this as closely as you might wish. I feel compelled to ask, "Why
have you had nothing to say on the matter before Bruce made his
annoncement?

>                                                         Oh - sorry, I
> forgot - if you would have stated before, that the most-wanted logo is
> unacceptable for copyright reasons (btw. WHY?), then you couldn't have
> chosen whatever you liked.
> 
Why, when folks don't get what they wanted, is there always some
"ulterior" motive ascribed in the matter?

> Besides, don't you think it's rather strange, that if the first one is
> unacceptable, to take the 25th(!!!) by popularity (according to:
> http://fatman.mathematik.tu-muenchen.de/~schwarz/debian-logo/overview.html) 
> instead?

What I find rather strange, is that he was able to come up with an
acceptable alternative from the entire lot. My look at those submissions
left me with the feeling that there wasn't a logo in the lot.

> 
> Democratic procedures usually include taking the top two and getting
> people to vote between them, if neither of the two can make a clear
> winner.
> 
In this case the issue isn't one of a democratic nature. Democracy
provided a bunch of unexceptable alternatives. This required someone to
decide. Bruce, for me, is the obvious person to make such a decision. We
elected him to deal with the day to day operations of the Debian
organization. Choosing the color for office walls, or a logo for a
product, or which packages should or should not go into a release, all
fall into the catagory of day-to-day operations.

> Besides - for taking the 25th one - what *EXACTLY* is wrong with each of
> the pictures 1-24 (reasons to be stated for EACH individual logo).
> 
According to my criterion for a logo, Bruce was able to come up with an
acceptable candidiate. If fits the following criterion:

	1. It should be simple and clean of line. Busy textures or
	   color schemes are bad for a logo.

	2. It should render in black and white as well as in color.

	3. You should be able to recognize it even after it has been 
	   xeroxed 100 times.

	4. It should not be rcognizable as, or confused with, another logo
	   already in use in your marketplace.

> 
> 
> > The person who was running the contest and I discussed hiring a commercial
> > artist for the Debian logo as well. Some time went by and a lot of people
> > got after me to get the logo done. I was about to hire the aritst (for $$$)
> 
> Oh - let me guess, you would've spent money on that artist without
> discussing that publicly?
> 
Pay attention. The choice Bruce made was to not spend money and to go with
an acceptable alternative. I think that this was a good decision, but more
important, I think it was a decision that Bruce _should_ have made. We
needed a logo for the last release and couldn't come to terms with it. We
need one just as bad now, maybe even worse, and I see no reason why
continued thrashing by the group would have gotten us a logo in the next
year or so, much less the next month.

But to speak to your previous question, "Yes, Bruce could very well have
spent the money without our permission. That is what we empowered him to
do by electing him. 

> 
> 
> > and I took another look at the logo submissions to see if one could be used.
> > That one could.
> 
> How about stating acceptable logos, and let all developers decide.

How about you being reasonable and save your ammo for a more important
issue, letting Bruce decide on color schemes and other inocuous stuff that
doesn't bear on our jobs as developers.

> Or - name the acceptable logos (note: PLURAL), and talk to Christian
> Schwarz to only list those logos and set their counters to 0. Then
> send an official announcement for the vote on the Debian logo in
> comp.os.linux.announce - to let the public decide.
> 
This didn't work before. Why should it be expected to work now?

I say THANK YOU BRUCE, for breaking this log jam and providing some more,
much needed marketing fluff, without dragging the rest of us through the
process.

Luck,

Dwarf
-- 
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aka   Dale Scheetz                   Phone:   1 (904) 656-9769
      Flexible Software              11000 McCrackin Road
      e-mail:  dwarf@polaris.net     Tallahassee, FL  32308

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