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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 22nd, 2010

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cubezzzeveryone ignores mine :)Apr 22 00:00
schestowitzDiablo-D3: Slahdot is always first!Apr 22 00:00
cubezzzI feel left out, I don't get shillsApr 22 00:00
cubezzzLinux is definitely on the rise thoughApr 22 00:01
cubezzzhere is the KO punch against Microsoft...Apr 22 00:02
cubezzzyou don't know what windows is doing reallyApr 22 00:02
cubezzzthat finishes it for meApr 22 00:02
cubezzzit could be phoning home to redmond, you wouldn't knowApr 22 00:02
schestowitz 22 00:03
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Learn to Speak Tea Bag .::. Size~: 100.2 KBApr 22 00:03
cubezzzeven windows advocates lament the need for virus scanners and the whole bitApr 22 00:03
cubezzzwindows is not even defensibleApr 22 00:04
cubezzzthere's Linux everything, even vending machinesApr 22 00:05
*Animeking has quit (Quit: KVIrc Insomnia 4.0.0, revision: 4260, sources date: 20100125, built on: 2010-04-17 13:54:22 UTC 22 00:06
cubezzzLinux power metersApr 22 00:07
cubezzzprobably a ton of other stuff I don't even know aboutApr 22 00:07
schestowitz[00:02] <cubezzz> it could be phoning home to redmond, you wouldn't knowApr 22 00:07
schestowitzWe knowApr 22 00:07
schestowitzIt does phoneApr 22 00:07
schestowitzPeople disassembled tooApr 22 00:08
schestowitzWe know what it sendsApr 22 00:08
cubezzzhow about WIn7?Apr 22 00:08
schestowitzAnd how oftenApr 22 00:08
cubezzzdoes it still do that?Apr 22 00:08
schestowitzcubezzz: I saw Vista testsApr 22 00:08
schestowitzVista 7 is VistaApr 22 00:08
schestowitzSame spying, maybe worseApr 22 00:08
cubezzzfiguresApr 22 00:08
schestowitz 22 00:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Forget about the WGA! 20  Windows Vista Features and Services Harvest User Data for Microsoft - From your machine! - Softpedia .::. Size~: 83.62 KBApr 22 00:09
cubezzzoh yeah WGAApr 22 00:09
cubezzzI mean how many reasons do you need to stop using doze?Apr 22 00:10
Ziomatrixthis is a good one: 22 00:12
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Credit Card Reform in Action .::. Size~: 91.86 KBApr 22 00:13
cubezzzbtw I asked this person who owned every computer you could think of...Apr 22 00:13
cubezzzRS/6000, Sun boxes, Macs, PCs, Amiga, etcApr 22 00:13
cubezzzwhich computer did they like the best?Apr 22 00:13
cubezzzanswer: Amiga Apr 22 00:13
cubezzzbest documented alsoApr 22 00:14
cubezzzSGI was a close 2ndApr 22 00:15
ZiomatrixI just heard on CBS that children who use iPad to count marshmellows will do better in life then those that don'tApr 22 00:16
cubezzz:-/Apr 22 00:17
Ziomatrixcubezzz: well the Amiga had, Copper, Blitter, 68k CPU and Zorro slots along with the usual RAM, ROM and PSU. Its a pretty simple system to map out the hardware compared to the complicated micro managed behemothsof todayApr 22 00:18
schestowitzACTAApr 22 00:18
schestowitzACTA Treaty Draft Text ReleasedApr 22 00:18
schestowitzACTA is also similar to another arcane law, the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), which, under the guise of protecting "property rights," snuck in provisions that criminalize even the mere possession of technology that can be used to circumvent digital protection systems (see, e.g., my post TI Uses Copyright Law to Attack TI Calculator Enthusiasts). Likewise, under the guise or protecting property rights in inventions and artistic Apr 22 00:18
schestowitzworks (patent and copyright), it "seeks to provide legal authority for the surveillance of Internet file transfers and searches of personal property". As one group notes, "ACTA goes way, way beyond the TRIPS (the copyright/patent/trademark stuff in the World Trade Organization agreement), creating an entirely new realm of liability for people who provide services on the net". More invasion of personal liberty and property rights in the Apr 22 00:18
schestowitzname of false, artificial property rights.Apr 22 00:18
schestowitz 22 00:18
TechrightsBotTitle: Against Monopoly  .::. Size~: 25.33 KBApr 22 00:18
schestowitzACTA: threats to Free SoftwareApr 22 00:18
schestowitzSecond, ACTA is not a trade agreement. Whatever the EU negotiators claim, the fact is that ACTA goes beyond current legislations and aims at creating internationally harmonized legislations on how “intellectual property rights” should be enforced. This is one of the reason why ACTA is creating its own body (the Committee) with its own executives (the Secretariat), independently from the World Trade Organization within which Apr 22 00:18
schestowitzinternational trade agreements should be negotiated, and independently from World Intellectual Property Organization within which international treaties dealing with copyright, trademark and patents are usually negotiated (and open to NGOs like FSFE). The threat to Free Software is that there is absolutely no safeguards as to how the principles of freedom and sharing software would be kept intact.Apr 22 00:18
schestowitz 22 00:18
schestowitzOops. SorryApr 22 00:18
cubezzzmega flood :)Apr 22 00:18
TechrightsBotTitle: hugos blog  » ACTA: threats to Free Software .::. Size~: 47.22 KBApr 22 00:18
cubezzzZiomatrix, yeah that's why I'm going to buy one, next pay probablyApr 22 00:19
schestowitzhypePad?Apr 22 00:19
ZiomatrixThats the best analogy of ACTA, a flood of intelectual property law and DRM forced down as many throats as possibleApr 22 00:19
schestowitzNo, no...Apr 22 00:20
schestowitzit's to stop fake medicine...Apr 22 00:20
schestowitzTo save livesApr 22 00:20
schestowitz[along with other things... MANY things]Apr 22 00:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @GreeGreece Glox News (All the slime that's fit to print) // another wonderful @tomtomorrow emissionApr 22 00:20
TechrightsBotTitle: Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type .::. Size~: 0 KBApr 22 00:20
schestowitzIf you don't like ACTA, you want fake medicine to kill peopleApr 22 00:20
Ziomatrixschestowitz: I thought its also to give artists the freedom to gain royalties from their work all over the world and have 75% of it given to the major record labels while they're able to take songs which they aren't even sure have copyrightsApr 22 00:21
cubezzzpeople lived without pills for centuriesApr 22 00:21
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Ziomatrixcubezzz: lies, we need our medicine for wrestless leg syndromeApr 22 00:23
schestowitz 22 00:23
TechrightsBotTitle: I Can&rsquo;t Make Calls on My iPad .::. Size~: 37.56 KBApr 22 00:23
schestowitzcubezzz: here's your homoeopathy pillsApr 22 00:24
schestowitzOr you can have real medicine by liquidApr 22 00:24
Ziomatrixschestowitz: I want my speed derived ridalineApr 22 00:24
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] was broken for several hours - I finally noticed and it's back nowApr 22 00:24
TechrightsBotTitle: NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 41.23 KBApr 22 00:24
schestowitzIf you want a cup of coffee, then you need just 6 swimming pool of "strong" homoeopathy 'sleeping pills'Apr 22 00:24
schestowitz*poolsApr 22 00:25
Ziomatrix 22 00:26
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Rage-Ex .::. Size~: 96.07 KBApr 22 00:26
ZiomatrixI just find these cartoons funnyApr 22 00:28
Ziomatrix 22 00:29
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Doctor Decline: Hold Tight .::. Size~: 100.68 KBApr 22 00:29
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] LiveJournal are stealing affiliate link income again and selling your click data 22 00:30
TechrightsBotTitle: antumbral: dear lj: plz to stop being dicks, kthx .::. Size~: 87.44 KBApr 22 00:30
schestowitz 22 00:30
TechrightsBotTitle: Planes or Volcano? .::. Size~: 53.23 KBApr 22 00:30
Ziomatrixschestowitz: if only this would bring back the ocean liner industry lolApr 22 00:31
Ziomatrixschestowitz: maybe ekranoplans will become popular as they fly just over sea level, they're more fuel efficient tooApr 22 00:32
schestowitzCould make transatlantic vesselsApr 22 00:33
schestowitzBig investmentApr 22 00:34
schestowitzmagnet powered\Apr 22 00:34
schestowitzGood for cargo tooApr 22 00:34
schestowitzCan use floatersApr 22 00:34
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@amazonwatch what can be done to stop #BeloMonte? international diplomatic pressure? #Brazil #Lula #Amazon #deforestationApr 22 00:35
schestowitz 22 00:36
TechrightsBotTitle: Women to blame for earthquakes, says Iran cleric |World news | .::. Size~: 65.05 KBApr 22 00:36
schestowitz 22 00:36
TechrightsBotTitle:       Computer Science House     .::. Size~: 13.37 KBApr 22 00:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @tlw3 Federal Judge Grants Habeas Writ Due to #Torture Issues //ruling uses squeamish euphemism "abusive conditions"Apr 22 00:38
TechrightsBotTitle: Federal Judge Grants Habeas Writ Due to Torture Issues  - The BLT: The Blog of Legal Times  .::. Size~: 59.9 KBApr 22 00:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "Abusive conditions" is what you find in a typical workplace. If you find US-style #torture in a workplace, you should probably quit. #gtmoApr 22 00:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Asturian team drives the Asturian Language Academy migration to Ubuntu - #ubuntuApr 22 00:42
TechrightsBotTitle: LoCo Stories: the Asturian team drives the Asturian Language Academy migration to Ubuntu | The Fridge .::. Size~: 12.43 KBApr 22 00:42
Ziomatrixschestowitz: its nice to know there are Pat Robertsons in Iran tooApr 22 00:45
schestowitzThat's what I thought tooApr 22 00:50
schestowitzIt would be funny to retaliate in reverseApr 22 00:51
schestowitzLike repudiate "God" and blaming him for bad thingsApr 22 00:51
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ender2070you guys are crazyApr 22 00:57
schestowitz 22 01:00
TechrightsBotTitle: PS3 user gets Linux refund .::. Size~: 28.92 KBApr 22 01:00
schestowitzender2070: you mean that?Apr 22 01:00
cubezzzLinux refund?Apr 22 01:00
ender2070yesApr 22 01:01
schestowitzCrazy for what?Apr 22 01:01
ender2070maybe not everyoneApr 22 01:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @jonobacon Asturian team drives the Asturian Language Academy migration to Ubuntu - #ubuntuApr 22 01:01
TechrightsBotTitle: LoCo Stories: the Asturian team drives the Asturian Language Academy migration to Ubuntu | The Fridge .::. Size~: 12.43 KBApr 22 01:01
schestowitz*LOL*Apr 22 01:01
schestowitz 22 01:01
ender2070you though, crazyApr 22 01:01
TechrightsBotTitle: Crazy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 20.94 KBApr 22 01:01
schestowitz"Apr 22 01:02
schestowitzCrazy may refer to:Apr 22 01:02
schestowitz    * Glenn BeckApr 22 01:02
schestowitz    * InsanityApr 22 01:02
schestowitz    * Crazy Magazine (1973–1983), a comic magazineApr 22 01:02
schestowitz"Apr 22 01:02
schestowitz[...]Apr 22 01:02
schestowitzSurely vandalismApr 22 01:02
schestowitzender2070: what for?Apr 22 01:02
schestowitzThe "God" thing?Apr 22 01:02
ender2070doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different resultApr 22 01:02
schestowitzWhat thing?Apr 22 01:02
ender2070you'll figure it outApr 22 01:03
ender2070if im wrongApr 22 01:03
*ender2070 has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Apr 22 01:03
cubezzz?Apr 22 01:03
schestowitzFaker?Apr 22 01:03
cubezzzpossibleApr 22 01:03
cubezzzdidn't sound like himApr 22 01:03
schestowitz[23:45] <ender2070> religions are for crazy peopleApr 22 01:03
schestowitzIt's himApr 22 01:04
cubezzzyeah I'm not sure what he was on about thoughApr 22 01:04
*cubezzz shrugsApr 22 01:04
*schestowitz scrolls upApr 22 01:04
schestowitzno idea what's up..Apr 22 01:05
cubezzzexactly :)Apr 22 01:05
schestowitz 22 01:06
schestowitzGoogle changes the name of LinuxApr 22 01:06
schestowitzAndroid...Apr 22 01:06
schestowitzChrome OSApr 22 01:06
schestowitzLike Ubuntu didApr 22 01:06
Ziomatrixnice way to teach children about credit default swaps and credit ratings for loans: 22 01:06
schestowitzPeople forget about Linux, not just GNOApr 22 01:06
schestowitzGNUApr 22 01:06
schestowitzWouldn't it be funny is Linus pulled an RMS?Apr 22 01:06
TechrightsBotTitle:   Cutting Through the Fog of Googles Cloud Print .::. Size~: 104.83 KBApr 22 01:06
TechrightsBotnice way to teach children about credit default swaps and credit ratings for loans: 22 01:06
TechrightsBotPeople forget about Linux, not just GNOApr 22 01:06
TechrightsBotGNUApr 22 01:06
TechrightsBotWouldn't it be funny is Linus pulled an RMS?Apr 22 01:06
schestowitzDemanded that Google calls it Android/Linux?Apr 22 01:06
schestowitzAnd Ubuntu/LinuxApr 22 01:06
cubezzzno :)Apr 22 01:07
schestowitzIt's the whole branding thingApr 22 01:07
schestowitzPeople are allowed to renamed the codeApr 22 01:07
schestowitzThen market 'their' productApr 22 01:07
schestowitz 22 01:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Ubuntu Linux hits 12 million users - .::. Size~: 39.27 KBApr 22 01:08
schestowitz 22 01:08
TechrightsBotTitle: Ubuntu Home Page | Ubuntu .::. Size~: 14.75 KBApr 22 01:08
schestowitz"Apr 22 01:08
schestowitzWhat is Ubuntu?Apr 22 01:08
schestowitzUbuntu is an operating system built by a worldwide team of expert developers. It contains all the applications you need: a web browser, office suite, media apps, instant messaging and much more. Apr 22 01:08
schestowitz"Apr 22 01:08
schestowitzHm...Apr 22 01:08
schestowitz"Ubuntu is an open-source alternative to Windows and Office."Apr 22 01:09
schestowitzIt mentions WIndowsApr 22 01:09
schestowitzSearch page for LinuxApr 22 01:09
cubezzzyeah I guess it was really himApr 22 01:09
schestowitzNo match foundApr 22 01:09
cubezzz~ender2070@bas1-brampton13-1177973356.dsl.bell.caApr 22 01:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @jonobacon mentions "Windows", but the words "Linux" and "GNU" are absent. :-SApr 22 01:10
TechrightsBotTitle: Ubuntu Home Page | Ubuntu .::. Size~: 14.75 KBApr 22 01:10
cubezzzthere's lots of choices if you don't like UbuntuApr 22 01:11
schestowitzHere's what I don't likeApr 22 01:11
schestowitzUsually I can search for LinuxApr 22 01:11
schestowitzNow I need to search for "Android" and "Ubuntu"Apr 22 01:11
schestowitzCause Linux is treated like it's chopped liverApr 22 01:12
cubezzzwell it's a bunch of thingsApr 22 01:12
schestowitzcubezzz: that's not the point though, it's not that I don't like Ubuntu; I do actuallyApr 22 01:12
cubezzzit's X, it's GNU, it's Qtopia, etc etcApr 22 01:12
schestowitzcubezzz: it's brandingApr 22 01:12
cubezzzit's like a bus, we have all the parts to make a good busApr 22 01:13
cubezzzand everyone can ride on itApr 22 01:13
schestowitz 22 01:13
TechrightsBotTitle: Ready to switch to Linux? .::. Size~: 40.34 KBApr 22 01:13
schestowitzmany articles like this would just say "Ubuntu"Apr 22 01:13
cubezzzI say Linux most of the timeApr 22 01:13
schestowitzAnd when Ubuntu becomes the next Mandrake, then people may not be able to attribute it to the same strandApr 22 01:14
cubezzzsometimes I say GNU/Linux, because really that's what I useApr 22 01:14
cubezzzLinux is just a generalization nowApr 22 01:14
schestowitz "I recall that Absa offered to e-mail me the statement in a Microsoft format. As a computer geek I only use Linux, so I ignored it - thereby inadvertently volunteering to give Absa R5 a month to kill trees for no purpose. "Apr 22 01:15
TechrightsBotTitle: Big 4 freeze in face of changing habits - Times LIVE .::. Size~: 46.21 KBApr 22 01:15
schestowitztessier_: 22 01:18
TechrightsBotTitle: Red Hat drops Xen from RHEL - Page 1 - Enterprise Business Applications .::. Size~: 79.36 KBApr 22 01:18
cubezzzthis is obviously wrong:Apr 22 01:19
cubezzz"As a desktop user there are really only two options: Linux or Mac OS X"Apr 22 01:19
cubezzzwrongApr 22 01:19
Diablo-D3schestowitz: that article doesnt mean anything too someone outside of .zaApr 22 01:19
Diablo-D3the south africian banking industry is corrupt and worthlessApr 22 01:19
Diablo-D3they charge fees for things that almost everybody else in the world gets for freeApr 22 01:20
cubezzzbanks are not your friendApr 22 01:21
Diablo-D3cubezzz: thats a pretty dumb statementApr 22 01:21
Diablo-D3they are neither your friend nor not your friendApr 22 01:21
Diablo-D3they're a company. they do things for money.Apr 22 01:22
Diablo-D3however, for example, south african banks charge you money for just having an account thereApr 22 01:23
Diablo-D3which is bullshitApr 22 01:23
Diablo-D3banks in the US and almost everywhere else wised upApr 22 01:23
Diablo-D3"hey, if we charge people money to have an account here, they wont put their money here"Apr 22 01:23
Diablo-D3and thus by eliminating such a silly fee, they made more moneyApr 22 01:24
schestowitz[01:23] <Diablo-D3> banks in the US and almost everywhere else wised upApr 22 01:24
schestowitzInflation is a form of bank feeApr 22 01:24
schestowitzSo they just hude the costsApr 22 01:24
schestowitz*hideApr 22 01:24
Diablo-D3schestowitz: not that way, noApr 22 01:24
schestowitzAnd reduce incentive to keep money under flooring or brickApr 22 01:24
Diablo-D3inflation is a form of tax.Apr 22 01:25
schestowitzSame thingApr 22 01:25
schestowitzDifferent nameApr 22 01:25
Diablo-D3little banks, ie, the majority of banks lose money due to inflationApr 22 01:25
schestowitz[00:40] [Notice] -BNtwitter to #boycottnovell- [qu1j0t3] "Abusive conditions" is what you find in a typical workplace. If you find US-style #torture in a workplace, you should probably quit. #gtmoApr 22 01:25
Diablo-D3most people in the US don't do business with the 5 largest banks in the USApr 22 01:25
schestowitzToo big to bailApr 22 01:26
Diablo-D3too big to leave aliveApr 22 01:26
schestowitzToo big to HellApr 22 01:26
schestowitzExcept LloydApr 22 01:26
schestowitzhe goes to HeavenApr 22 01:26
schestowitzTo carry on God's werkApr 22 01:26
schestowitzGod works in mysterious wayApr 22 01:27
schestowitzLike a giant squid :-DApr 22 01:27
schestowitz 22 01:28
TechrightsBotTitle: Sharp new Linux NetWalker tablet to hit Japan next month. «  Akihabara News .::. Size~: 64.79 KBApr 22 01:28
schestowitz"What a surprise, but it seems that Sharp will propose from Next month (May) a new NetWalker Ubuntu powered device in Japan with the PC-T1."Apr 22 01:28
schestowitz "Next weekend's Japanese MotoGP has been postponed until October because of the disruption to international air travel caused by the volcanic eruption in Iceland."Apr 22 01:30
schestowitzgnApr 22 01:30
TechrightsBotTitle: Radio New Zealand News : Sports : 2010 : 04 : 19 : Volcano postpones Moto GP in Japan .::. Size~: 16.12 KBApr 22 01:30
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Heading out for an early dinner with my friend Deb from Prentice Hall. Wood Tavern, yeah baby!Apr 22 01:39
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] yes! #organic milk in glass bottles, at North #Melbourne IGA!Apr 22 01:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] ugh, open source projects need a professional resource for logos. hard to convey how bad some areApr 22 01:57
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_the_mad_hatter] This Ain't No Popularity Contest - It's Politics - Follow up to my article on Disclosure: 22 02:05
TechrightsBotTitle: This Aint No Popularity Contest  Its Politics «  Through the Looking Glass .::. Size~: 85.13 KBApr 22 02:05
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cubezzzMicrosoft ads front and centre on slashdot Apr 22 03:07
cubezzzblahApr 22 03:07
cubezzz"please brain wash me"Apr 22 03:09
cubezzzbut whatever, I guess everyone has freedom of choiceApr 22 03:11
cubezzzsort ofApr 22 03:12
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Jose_XHas anyone not yet seen this or Apr 22 03:25
TechrightsBotTitle: Hitler Rants Video About DMCA Takedowns Is Taken Down Itself | Techdirt .::. Size~: 49.9 KBApr 22 03:25
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Hitler, as "Downfall" producer, orders a DMCA takedown .::. Size~: 83.92 KBApr 22 03:25
Jose_Xit's great.. but put down your drinks before watchingApr 22 03:25
Jose_Xschestowitz, make sure you see it. it covers various topics at once and gives Linux (and stallman -- great quote) exposureApr 22 03:26
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Jose_Xjust saw the video again. it was even better the second time.Apr 22 03:31
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Jose_Xthis has got to rank among the very top spoofs.. at least by those that appreciate foss and stuffApr 22 03:33
Jose_Xthey insult youtube on youtubeApr 22 03:33
Jose_Xof course xbox gets a little dissApr 22 03:34
Jose_Xand the stallman line is .... Apr 22 03:34
cubezzzbrilliantApr 22 03:35
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*amarsh04 wonders what video was being talked aboutApr 22 03:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Data Recovery Services (#Sydney #Australia) says they've recovered my dead laptop drive. Let's see what I get... #datarecovery #miracleApr 22 03:39
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] On that note, I'm going to be boring and repeat: Make and Check your #Backup s. #timemachine Prevention is better (and cheaper) than cureApr 22 03:42
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] The Whitehouse contributing Open Source technology - - this says a lot about this administration to me.Apr 22 03:58
TechrightsBotTitle: Releases Open Source Code | The White House .::. Size~: 31.42 KBApr 22 03:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Great, Amazing, Fantastic, Incredible, Magical, Wonderful! #comedygoldApr 22 04:04
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- iPad Keynote in less than 180 Seconds: Incredible, Beautiful, Amazing! .::. Size~: 89.52 KBApr 22 04:04
cubezzzwow, Neo Geo stuff is still expensiveApr 22 04:12
cubezzzpretty sure I bought World Heroes 2 for about $266Apr 22 04:14
cubezzznewApr 22 04:14
amarsh04ACTA just mentioned on .au current affairs radio programme - including China and India not being involvedApr 22 04:26
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Chips_B_Malroyanyone still up here?Apr 22 04:30
amarsh04yesApr 22 04:30
Chips_B_Malroythere is life hereApr 22 04:31
amarsh04just having a little bit to eat before going outApr 22 04:32
Chips_B_MalroyAmarsh04> I was looking at the ARM netbooks on USA Ebay. 22 04:32
TechrightsBotTitle: 3Colors 7" Mini Netbook Laptop Notebook WIFI Windows 2G - eBay (item 130384910871 end time  Apr-21-10 20:38:31 PDT) .::. Size~: 78.8 KBApr 22 04:32
amarsh04any idea on the true manufacturer?Apr 22 04:33
amarsh04I'd love to be able to buy something like a yeelong locallyApr 22 04:33
Chips_B_Malroysince they are puny, 128mb ram, 2gb space, and come with Windows CE, was hoping to find someone that might know if Debian Arm could be put on thisApr 22 04:33
Chips_B_MalroyThey are all over, this model on Ebay nowApr 22 04:34
Chips_B_MalroyBut worthless if you got to run CEApr 22 04:34
Chips_B_MalroyIMOApr 22 04:34
amarsh04most of the Debian ARM activity seems to be with wireless/adsl routersApr 22 04:34
Chips_B_MalroyI have the Debian Arm DVDApr 22 04:35
Chips_B_Malroydownloaded it awhile backApr 22 04:35
Chips_B_Malroyits puny, 300mhz arm cpu, 128mb ram, 7" lcdApr 22 04:37
Chips_B_Malroybut if you could put linux on itApr 22 04:37
Chips_B_Malroymight be ok for surfingApr 22 04:37
amarsh04I have no experience with cross-compiling... it would be good to make it easier for a standard Debian on amd64 to generate images for other architecures (my limit is compiling i386 kernels on amd64)Apr 22 04:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@rjurney Does literally everyone but me on the internet use #Facebook? // i have no use for it. so no.Apr 22 04:38
Chips_B_MalroyYes, since here is a Debian Arm DVD, it might be able to install with an external usb dvd driveApr 22 04:39
Chips_B_Malroywas hoping cubezzz was awake, as he is looking for alternatives to x86Apr 22 04:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@splorp This typeface would be easier to redraw if I weren’t so anal. Nodes at the extrema! /bézier not most natural primitive. seen cornu?Apr 22 04:40
amarsh04anyway, I'll be heading off nowApr 22 04:41
Chips_B_MalroyAlso I wanted to tell cubezzz, if he did not already know, that that old 486sx, the cdrom drive probably works.  As its too old to boot from a cd, and will not work until the drivers are installed.  The drivers must be installed first from boot cd's, in W95 and most of the older versions of Linux at that timeApr 22 04:43
Chips_B_Malroyamarsh04> ok, was good talking with youApr 22 04:43
amarsh04so the old machine needs to floppy boot with cdrom drivers?Apr 22 04:44
Chips_B_MalroyyesApr 22 04:44
amarsh04I might yet have to source another 3.5" floppy drive in working orderApr 22 04:45
Chips_B_Malroythere is no boot to cdrom in the bios of those old machinesApr 22 04:45
Chips_B_Malroyon an old machine, yes.  other way is just to install linux in another machine and switch the hard driveApr 22 04:47
Chips_B_Malroyif you have the same resolutionApr 22 04:47
Chips_B_Malroywell they are actually boot floppies that start the cdrom installApr 22 04:49
Chips_B_Malroyall the operating systems like 95, linux, OS/2 did it that way back thenApr 22 04:49
Chips_B_MalroyHere some stuff Roy might or might not be able to use.  Its about the US economy, and it not good.  Housing Foreclosures, the worst is not overApr 22 04:52
Chips_B_Malroy 22 04:53
TechrightsBotTitle: Housing Crisis Getting Uglier in 2010 - CBS Evening News - CBS News .::. Size~: 79.41 KBApr 22 04:53
Chips_B_Malroy 22 04:53
TechrightsBotTitle: Major Banks Still Grappling With Foreclosures : NPR .::. Size~: 61.92 KBApr 22 04:53
Chips_B_Malroy 22 04:53
TechrightsBotTitle: The Rise of Foreclosure Filings .::. Size~: 1.19 KBApr 22 04:53
Chips_B_Malroy 22 04:54
TechrightsBotTitle: Las Vegas has highest foreclosure rate .::. Size~: 80.79 KBApr 22 04:54
Chips_B_Malroy 22 04:54
TechrightsBotTitle: Senators Ask Fannie, Freddie to Freeze Foreclosures (Update3)  - .::. Size~: 38.71 KBApr 22 04:54
Chips_B_MalroyThe banks could be back soon, wanting more money, if these foreclosures figures are correct, which I believe they are.Apr 22 04:55
Chips_B_MalroyIt just stands to reason, that people cannot pay mortages, if they are out of work.Apr 22 04:56
Chips_B_MalroyThe government, and the banking community, are trying to hide these figures, delaying many of the foreclosures.  For the simple reason, that once they foreclose of them they had to sell the property.  There is already a surplus of property, and dumping 4x more on the market, will cause the selling price to plummit.Apr 22 04:58
Chips_B_MalroyWell, gnApr 22 04:59
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Chips_B_MalroyI had to come back and anwser the question who made that ARM laptop on ebay. 22 05:18
TechrightsBotTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBApr 22 05:18
Chips_B_MalroySungworldApr 22 05:19
Chips_B_MalroyThe one I posted the earlier ebay link to, went for $86 US, including shipping.Apr 22 05:21
Chips_B_MalroyWonder how much MS is going make off that, as Windows CE 6.0 is on it.  Apr 22 05:23
Chips_B_MalroyWouldn't it be wierd, if the ones that bring MS to its knees, is not Linux, is not Apple or Google, but the Chinese with cheap computers.Apr 22 05:25
Chips_B_MalroyWhile I do not see a lot of these selling for buy it now at $95 including shipping, its still early.  But they are selling for $86Apr 22 05:27
Chips_B_Malroyquote from the above link:  "World's Cheapest Laptops are:Merimobiles, ARM-Based "No Names" (100's of them),Cherrypal,Sungworld  Cheap Chinese brands are taking over from pricey netbooks. Already there are *hundreds* of brands based on ARM processors, and available in China and even on the streets of New York. Soon they will be on blister-pack cards at places like Walgreen's and the dollar stores. Here's where to getApr 22 05:29
Chips_B_Malroygn, and I really mean it this time.Apr 22 05:30
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Chips_B_Malroyok, I back.  The brand is really a ANYKA not sungworld.Apr 22 05:44
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Chips_B_Malroylooks like nobody got Linux running on that ARM laptop on ebay so far: 22 05:52
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Chips_B_Malroythat doesn't mean it cannot be doneApr 22 05:52
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Playing with PiTiVi which we now ship on a default Ubuntu 10.04 installation - it is absolutely fantastic! Great work @bilboedApr 22 06:33
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] If anybody has shared his files using torrent then please let me know how to do so. I want to share my 2GB iso with it. #torrentApr 22 06:38
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Looking 4 ethical #investment opportunities in #Canada? Renewal2 Fund now open. #organic #green #renewable #sustainable 22 07:01
TechrightsBotTitle: A new capitalism, coloured green - The Globe and Mail .::. Size~: 90.07 KBApr 22 07:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Download SchoolOS using torrent - #schoolosApr 22 07:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Download School OS from .::. Size~: 21.44 KBApr 22 07:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] “There's an old saying-when u go to heaven, all yr friends are there&everythng is just the way u want” CREEPY METAPHOR #Zuckerberg #facebookApr 22 07:13
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Good morning! Mozilla Thunderbird 3.04ß has a bug in the filter system. Setting up Leafnode to use COLA filtersApr 22 07:22
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schestowitz "I was really impressed with Slitz. Rather like Crunchbang used to be, it's a bit of an unsung masterpiece in my opinion."Apr 22 07:29
TechrightsBotTitle: silner (silner) 's status on Wednesday, 21-Apr-10 20:38:14 UTC - .::. Size~: 8.08 KBApr 22 07:29
schestowitz "#PCLinuxOS worked fine for me but I'm not sure it's any more than Mandriva with a different outfit on."Apr 22 07:30
TechrightsBotTitle: silner (silner) 's status on Wednesday, 21-Apr-10 20:40:36 UTC - .::. Size~: 8.15 KBApr 22 07:30
schestowitzmore like Mandrake maybe.Apr 22 07:30
schestowitz "I'm assuming it's still based on Mandriva."Apr 22 07:30
TechrightsBotTitle: silner (silner) 's status on Wednesday, 21-Apr-10 20:41:26 UTC - .::. Size~: 8.01 KBApr 22 07:31
schestowitz "@schestowitz they truly almost deserve the position. they even have the decency to call themselves "gnu/" linux. i wish there was a version of slitaz with linux-libre (i'd probably be using it now, i was using slitaz and soas prior to rms and trisquel)"Apr 22 07:31
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schestowitz "@schestowitz along with everyone else on the enterprise. i mean, you think the engineers had to ask a corporation for permission to improve the running of the computer? realign shield harmonics with drm in the way? i think not..."Apr 22 07:32
TechrightsBotTitle: حالة menn (openuniverse)  في يوم Wednesday, 21-Apr-10 21:42:11 UTC - 280 .::. Size~: 7.48 KBApr 22 07:32
schestowitzA company in California preinstalls gnewsenseApr 22 07:32
schestowitz "on the contrary, it would make it even more of a coup if it messed with Microsoft's plans too..."Apr 22 07:35
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schestowitzSteam for Linux???Apr 22 07:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] wow, @ RealScottBaio's a RealNutJob. #ewww ... via @torontostarApr 22 07:41
TechrightsBotTitle: Scott Baio's Online Meltdown: A Complete Timeline - Scott baio twitter - Jezebel .::. Size~: 82.73 KBApr 22 07:41
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@Tosfm RT @Oculuris When #torture is outlawed [ IT IS ], only outlaws will torture.Apr 22 07:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ml2mst] Just figured out it's not a bug in Mozilla Thunderbird 3.0.4 ß. It just works different from previous versions.Apr 22 07:43
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] Some idiot's car alarm going off @ 3 AM for the last 10 minutes. Fucking steal it already!!! Jesus! Bad neighbors all around. :(Apr 22 08:16
schestowitz 22 08:20
TechrightsBotTitle:                     Google buys agnilux - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 56.23 KBApr 22 08:20
schestowitzWeirdApr 22 08:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @daemonfc use earplugsApr 22 08:21
schestowitztessier_: nagios wins, 22 08:22
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] ♺ @glynmoody: Once-hidden #EU report reveals damage from #biodiesel - not a cover-up EU insists; right...Apr 22 08:38
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Start your "taking the piss" jokes now. 22 08:42
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] #Nestlé continues to buy #palmoil from Sinar Mas - trashing Indonesian #rainforest & destroying #orangutan habitat 22 09:00
TechrightsBotTitle: Nestlé and orang-utans  | Greenpeace Australia Pacific .::. Size~: 29.66 KBApr 22 09:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] via @glynmoody Suppressed #EU report reveals #biodiesel problems- #biofuels are LOSE LOSE LOSE!! #energy #deforestationApr 22 09:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Once-hidden EU report reveals damage from biodiesel | EurActiv .::. Size~: 50.46 KBApr 22 09:04
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] #Biodiesel from North American #soybeans has an indirect carbon footprint 4x higher than standard #diesel #energyApr 22 09:06
TechrightsBotTitle: Once-hidden EU report reveals damage from biodiesel | EurActiv .::. Size~: 50.46 KBApr 22 09:06
schestowitz 22 09:07
TechrightsBotTitle: Prior Art Database Home .::. Size~: 11.79 KBApr 22 09:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] 'these studies show that land use is the most important factor in deciding if #biofuels make sense or not' YES! #energyApr 22 09:07
TechrightsBotTitle: Once-hidden EU report reveals damage from biodiesel | EurActiv .::. Size~: 50.46 KBApr 22 09:07
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @qu1j0t3 didn't Nestle issue a PR some days ago? Lies?Apr 22 09:08
schestowitz 22 09:09
TechrightsBotTitle: Da'rryl Durr on the death penalty |World news |The Guardian .::. Size~: 76.45 KBApr 22 09:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @qu1j0t3 Yes Men strike again 22 09:11
TechrightsBotTitle: Dow throws a party, mainly zombies show up | The Yes Men .::. Size~: 22.2 KBApr 22 09:11
schestowitz RMS: "And since cellular phones are computers, this applies to them too."Apr 22 09:12
TechrightsBotTitle: US school accused of using laptops to spy on pupils |World news |The Guardian .::. Size~: 65.67 KBApr 22 09:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] "We thought it must be a joke when we heard #Dow Chemical Company was sponsoring a run for clean #water," 22 09:15
TechrightsBotTitle: Dow throws a party, mainly zombies show up | The Yes Men .::. Size~: 22.2 KBApr 22 09:15
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] 'One of the world's worst polluters trying to greenwash its image' #Dow #agentorange #bhopal #pollutionApr 22 09:18
TechrightsBotTitle: dow poison legacy - Google Search .::. Size~: 27.6 KBApr 22 09:18
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] #Nestlé helps destroy protected rainforest. #palmoil #indonesiaApr 22 09:20
TechrightsBotTitle: Nestlé needs to give rainforests a real break | Greenpeace International .::. Size~: 44.5 KBApr 22 09:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@schestowitz PR Statement is misdirection. #Nestlé still indirectly purchasing from same cartel. See @Greenpeace link.Apr 22 09:23
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] American Idol wants to raise awareness of poverty in Africa. I'm glad because this must be a temporary crisis, worthy of attention. ;)Apr 22 09:37
schestowitz "But in his time away from Apple, Jobs missed a revolution or two: the rise of the internet and the spread of open source, the free and open community-written software movement."Apr 22 09:38
TechrightsBotTitle: Jobs takes a stand and guards his territory - The Irish Times - Fri, Apr 16, 2010 .::. Size~: 44.36 KBApr 22 09:38
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @qu1j0t3 it shows they suffer damageApr 22 09:39
schestowitz "They [open source vendors] haven't done a very good job," Worthington told iTnews.,defence-open-source-sold-by-commerce-not-ideals.aspxApr 22 09:40
schestowitzExcusesApr 22 09:40
TechrightsBotTitle: Defence open source sold by commerce, not ideals - Software - Technology - News - .::. Size~: 72.68 KBApr 22 09:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] @schestowitz i've asked @greenpeace for more details on problems with the #Nestlé responseApr 22 09:50
MinceRr4wrApr 22 09:57
MinceR(animated) 22 09:57
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schestowitz "HOUSE OF CREATIVE SOFTWARE Adobe is about to make another own goal by delaying its Flash Player for the Android and WebOS operating systems."Apr 22 10:00
TechrightsBotTitle:                     Flash for android and webos is delayed again - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 64.8 KBApr 22 10:00
schestowitzMinceR: I think he was just an apologist for themApr 22 10:01
schestowitzNot a pedoApr 22 10:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] .@vonster new notes do illustrate lack of thoughtful design in #us currency. 22 10:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Dollar ReDe$ign Project - It's Time to ReBrand the Buck .::. Size~: 157.5 KBApr 22 10:02
TechrightsBotTitle: Print Blog / The Color of Money from Around the World by COLOURlovers :: COLOURlovers .::. Size~: 65.27 KBApr 22 10:02
amarsh04Tom Worthington was a former president of the Australian Computer Society - I felt that the organisation made itself irrelevant by thinking in terms of isolated systems rather than being part of a connected wholeApr 22 10:09
schestowitzYou could look at it the opposite wayApr 22 10:12
schestowitzWhere one vendor gives a connected (and expensive) wholeApr 22 10:12
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] It is hard to believe but many times I see dream inside dream while sleeping. #strange going one dream to another & coming back. #dreamApr 22 10:18
schestowitz 22 10:20
TechrightsBotTitle: Why America's Telecom System Stinks - PCWorld .::. Size~: 69.53 KBApr 22 10:20
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] The list of CompTIA's members is a trade secret, says Hugo Lueders of CompTIA's Brussels office: 22 10:27
TechrightsBotTitle: For Openness – and Open Source - We Need Transparency - Community - ComputerworldUK .::. Size~: 75.53 KBApr 22 10:27
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] is Silvia Pfeiffer , Jan Gerber Or Michael Dale on twitter ? #ogg #html5, I like this html video presentation 22 10:57
TechrightsBotTitle: Html5 Open Video Tutorial .::. Size~: 73.49 KBApr 22 10:57
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[trmanco] You may be seriously concerned about a financial decision that... More for Aquarius 22 10:58
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Just carried 13 teas/coffees up two flights of stairs. It is _so_ not my turn for the rest of the week!Apr 22 10:59
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schestowitzMaybe I should slow down my dents? 22 11:20
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schestowitz 22 11:21
TechrightsBotTitle: 10 Simple Google Search Tricks - .::. Size~: 55.92 KBApr 22 11:21
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @zoobab has someone got the list?Apr 22 11:23
amarsh04 22 11:24
TechrightsBotTitle: The World Today - Draft copyright treaty stirs concerns 22/04/2010 .::. Size~: 24.5 KBApr 22 11:24
amarsh04ABC also spoke to Kim Weatherall about ACTA but I can't find the transcriptApr 22 11:25
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] 81% of those that had a view supported the recommendation to remove Software from the Patents Act 22 11:26
TechrightsBotTitle: Scoop: ICT Profession Supports Removal of Software Patent .::. Size~: 71.15 KBApr 22 11:26
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Software patents are reduced to simply monopoly protection rather than promotion of innovation 22 11:32
schestowitz,10225.htmlApr 22 11:33
TechrightsBotTitle: Who Has Fastest, Cheapest Internet in the World? .::. Size~: 94.13 KBApr 22 11:33
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TechrightsBotTitle: [Phoronix] Ubuntu 10.04 Is Hit By Major X.Org Memory Leak .::. Size~: 16.73 KBApr 22 11:45
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oiaohm  Yep anti-viruses becoming as bad as virusesApr 22 12:17
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schestowitz 22 12:26
schestowitzoiaohm: thanks, I saw that yesterdayApr 22 12:26
oiaohm  I guess you have seen this already.  schestowitzApr 22 12:39
TechrightsBotTitle: [Phoronix] Ubuntu 10.04 Is Hit By Major X.Org Memory Leak .::. Size~: 16.75 KBApr 22 12:39
oiaohmRemember my comments about backporting stuff being insanity.Apr 22 12:39
oiaohm  Less reasons to buy MS Office now.Apr 22 12:41
TechrightsBotTitle: Facebook and Microsoft Go After Google Docs .::. Size~: 58.91 KBApr 22 12:41
amarsh04oiaohm, I have just tried kernel 2.6.33 in two machines using the radeon module and kernel mode setting - in both cases I had to force the loading of the radeon module early for vt1-vt6 to work - not wishing to have to run a customised kernel or initramfs, I have a line in /etc/modprobe.d/local for the video cardApr 22 12:45
amarsh04it just seems weird having to force load the video card module to have things working alrightApr 22 12:45
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goshmateI love the site, But for crying out loud after a number of years can you folks fix the rendering problems on Firefox?Apr 22 13:05
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oiaohmamarsh04: It has to be loaded early.Apr 22 13:25
oiaohmFramebuffer also goes threw the same driver.  amarsh04Apr 22 13:26
oiaohmIe KMS everything is going threw one driver.  amarsh04Apr 22 13:26
amarsh04yes oiaohm... I just wonder how to load module radeon early, but *without* building it in (e.g. as a kernel parameter or config file entry, but not needing to rebuild the kernel or running update-initramfs if changing video card)Apr 22 13:29
oiaohmIts a little bit of a bug.Apr 22 13:31
oiaohmThe init system was never designed with the requirements of KMS in mind.Apr 22 13:31
oiaohmReally means to load drivers need to be before the init system attempts to output to framebuffer.Apr 22 13:32
oiaohmCurrently that is only either in initramfs or built into kernel.  Because everything running as init automatically starts out putting crap.Apr 22 13:33
oiaohmOne vial hack would be to close all framebuffers and force a video card reset then load the driver.  amarsh04Apr 22 13:36
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] >@Turing100in2012 #Afghanistan is not civilised, why Karzai is tolerated by West /harrowing past decade puts lie to 'civilisation' of 'West'Apr 22 13:42
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] RT @MITNews Missed @BillGates on campus yesterday? We've got coverage of his trip to #MIT // hope somebody tried a citizen's arrestApr 22 13:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[qu1j0t3] Knox trial reopens. Hmmmmm 22 13:47
TechrightsBotTitle: I could have been Amanda Knox - Crime - .::. Size~: 106.29 KBApr 22 13:47
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schestowitzGood video on Internet trolls: 22 14:43
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- ANALyzing Trolls .::. Size~: 88.85 KBApr 22 14:43
oiaohmSome of the rummers at moment like apple buying arm and apple being arms biggest customer.  Does everyone forget about Nokia and moterolla.Apr 22 14:47
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, I pasted that bit of news here earlier (x/buntu)Apr 22 14:54
schestowitzoiaohm: Zuckerberg is in bed with Microsoft and even its patent trolls Apr 22 14:57
schestowitzI wouldn't touch that ilk with a bargepoleApr 22 14:58
oiaohmNow thinking nokia and arm are both Linux foundation.Apr 22 14:58
oiaohmAnd most mergers of companies inside the foundation happen to other foundation members.Apr 22 14:58
oiaohmI would have been more believing of a nokia arm merge than a apple arm one.Apr 22 14:58
schestowitz[13:05] <goshmate> I love the site, But for crying out loud after a number of years can you folks fix the rendering problems on Firefox?Apr 22 14:59
schestowitzWhat rendering issues?Apr 22 14:59
schestowitzoiaohm: sorry for delay/lah, just posted a MASSIVE lump of news linksApr 22 14:59
oiaohmStatus normal for you schestowitzApr 22 15:00
schestowitzI have 8 posts comingApr 22 15:01
schestowitzBut debating self whether to go to gym firstApr 22 15:01
oiaohmNo need to be sorry for the delay I am starting to get use to it schestowitz.  Say something wait an 1h no answer turns up most likely not coming.Apr 22 15:01
schestowitzIt's sunnyApr 22 15:01
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @qu1j0t3 they can attempt arrest when he flies; the tribunal would have extensive evidence (bar PR smoke screens)Apr 22 15:01
schestowitzoiaohm: I watch videos while I editApr 22 15:01
schestowitz2 hours on this science channel...Apr 22 15:01
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schestowitzHey, Ziomatrix. wbApr 22 15:02
Ziomatrixbatten down the hatches folks there be rumors about that Apple wants a huge stake in ARM HoldingsApr 22 15:02
Ziomatrixschestowitz: walking dogs, y tu?Apr 22 15:02
schestowitzSounds unlikelyApr 22 15:06
schestowitzUsed to be a rumour about takeover of AMDApr 22 15:06
oiaohmHmm arm is a highly fragmented company.Apr 22 15:06
oiaohmin shareholders.Apr 22 15:06
schestowitzBut Apple uses x86Apr 22 15:06
oiaohmLargest shareholder has 4 percent.Apr 22 15:06
oiaohmAnd I see apple no where.Apr 22 15:06
oiaohmThinking you need 10 percent really to start a take over.Apr 22 15:07
Ziomatrixschestowitz: true, but Apple is increasingly relying on ARM devices for the backbone of its sales. Cheaper to produce, support, while being sold for a premium for that extra profit needed to please shareholdersApr 22 15:07
Diablo-D3wellApr 22 15:07
Diablo-D3a lot of people believe ARM is the new PPCApr 22 15:07
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: that is so far from the truth its not even funnyApr 22 15:07
scientes_i can't figure out how to do a citation in lyxApr 22 15:07
scientes_i go insert-citationApr 22 15:08
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: but heh what has stopped rhedoric from Walstreet and other major investment centers from breaking the back of otherwise good businessesApr 22 15:08
scientes_and then cant do anything as i dont have any citationsApr 22 15:08
scientes_how do i create a citation?Apr 22 15:08
scientes_"available citations"Apr 22 15:08
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: I didnt say it was trueApr 22 15:08
Diablo-D3I just said a lot of people blieve itApr 22 15:08
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: who can stop the Intel x86 dynamo?Apr 22 15:09
Diablo-D3AMD, ironicallyApr 22 15:10
Diablo-D3using their own x86 dynamoApr 22 15:10
Diablo-D3which is becoming increasingly less x86 every dayApr 22 15:10
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: don't forget VIA, but the problem is their marketshare is still virtually none existent among PCs in big box storesApr 22 15:10
oiaohm  scientes_ answer not exactly simple.  You need to set style of citations before you can add any.Apr 22 15:10
TechrightsBotTitle: LyX wiki | LyX / HumanitiesLyX  .::. Size~: 39.19 KBApr 22 15:11
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: via is really interesting, but I have no hope for themApr 22 15:11
scientes_ahh 22 15:11
Diablo-D3their via nano easily rapes intel's atomApr 22 15:11
scientes_manualApr 22 15:11
Diablo-D3butApr 22 15:11
TechrightsBotTitle: BibTeX Format Description .::. Size~: 4.62 KBApr 22 15:11
Diablo-D3AMD has micro-Fusions coming out soon that just carpet bombs the whole marketApr 22 15:11
oiaohmVia are very good on encrypted links as well.Apr 22 15:13
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I think Via can still find a niche with their micro-ATX mobosApr 22 15:14
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: the problem is Intel still rules through shere volume and wholesale discountsApr 22 15:15
oiaohmReally Via moves of x86 to arm with there encryption processing you could have a very useful chip.Apr 22 15:15
oiaohmNot like Via is techless.Apr 22 15:15
Ziomatrixoiaohm: well the whole point of them aquiring Centaur along with its tech and seem is to have a fully 64bit, RISC/CISC instruction with SoC for a number of functions found in set top and mobile devices while still being power efficient x86-64 chip.Apr 22 15:18
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I can't see them all of a sudden making an about face to ARM so easily when they invested so much into one platform as is without it taking plenty of timeApr 22 15:18
Ziomatrixits the first power efficient CPU to be fully 64bit and now its latest iteration will be the first to introduce SSE4 sets: 22 15:20
TechrightsBotTitle: VIA Nano - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 54.44 KBApr 22 15:20
oiaohmRemember arm soc chips are built normally from multiable groups of IP.Apr 22 15:20
oiaohmVIA freeing up there encryption part to arm chips could get more sales of it.Apr 22 15:20
Ziomatrixoiaohm: what I meant to state is the Via Nano is still one of the only out-of-order CPU of its size and efficiencyApr 22 15:20
Ziomatrixas in it being superscalarApr 22 15:21
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I guess licensing its encryption on dye method out to ARM manufacturers would grant it instant profit but in the long term hurt sales on its own CPUsApr 22 15:22
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Ziomatrixoiaohm: the Via Nano like any other ULV strattles offly close to both contemporary mobile x86 CPUs and ARM. In fact its interesting to note some are thinking about create ARM databases for efficiency while they can just employ a set of CPUs such as the Nano for so much cheaperApr 22 15:24
oiaohm Read carefully about Cortex-A9Apr 22 15:24
TechrightsBotTitle: ARM Unveils Cortex-A9 Processors For Scalable Performance… - ARM .::. Size~: 56.69 KBApr 22 15:24
Ziomatrixwhile maintaining the very same efficiency since it would take less Nanos to compute the same load as even a top of the line ARM oneApr 22 15:25
Ziomatrixoiaohm: its still not superscalar yetApr 22 15:25
Ziomatrixoiaohm: ARM also inherently has less out-of-order instruction sets and in my opinion should stay that way for awhile in order to be a lean and mean one for mobile devicesApr 22 15:26
ZiomatrixI still don't get why such an open standard as MIPs hasn't really progressed muchApr 22 15:27
oiaohm  superscalar is in cortex-a8 the version before.Apr 22 15:27
TechrightsBotTitle: Cortex-A8 Processor - ARM .::. Size~: 60.31 KBApr 22 15:27
oiaohmVIA just has more time doing both ZiomatrixApr 22 15:27
Ziomatrixoiaohm: ahh so the Cortex A9 has superscaler and more out-of-order sets. I'm not sure if its still as manyApr 22 15:28
Ziomatrixoiaohm: the problem is VIA would still be technilogically behind in ARM as apposed to even the likes of Marvell and FreescaleApr 22 15:28
oiaohmMarvell and Freescale license blocks of tech from many companies.Apr 22 15:29
oiaohmTo build their chips.Apr 22 15:29
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so you can see VIA licensing out its tech to them?Apr 22 15:29
oiaohmTheir is a profit line thier if market gets tight for them ZiomatrixApr 22 15:30
Ziomatrixoiaohm: Kind of sad as that would mean essentially tossing the Nano, unless they somehow release mobos that are Nano ARM hybrids.Apr 22 15:32
oiaohmARM design is purely designed for power effectiveness from the instruction set up.Apr 22 15:32
Ziomatrixoiaohm: it would be interesting to have mobile devices and others that can activate a more powerful CPU once they need that bump in processing power temporarily.Apr 22 15:33
Ziomatrixoiaohm: ecspecially with most instructions becoming more SoC.Apr 22 15:33
oiaohmThere are many segments of  Nano tech that could possiable be linked to a arm core.Apr 22 15:33
oiaohmLike arm's are not known for thier floating point performance.Apr 22 15:33
oiaohmIe it suxs.Apr 22 15:34
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I don't see how they can improve that without churning out something totally different then any other ARM CPUApr 22 15:34
oiaohmSame way x86 solved it.  Ie FPU.Apr 22 15:35
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I think just like the whole CISC v RISC argument, platforms are becoming more irrelevent when it comes to discussing their merrits as every CPU contains a little bit of everything in different quantities and orders of instructionApr 22 15:35
oiaohmIts more coming what the chip can do and how power effective.Apr 22 15:36
Ziomatrixoiaohm: but you have companies going in totally different direction even on the same platform just as Intel v. AMD there is Qualcomm v TIApr 22 15:37
oiaohmCISC for core of CPU are basically dead.Apr 22 15:37
Ziomatrixoiaohm: perhaps but so is having an entire RISC CPUApr 22 15:37
oiaohmRISC is basically the core of all the remaining CPU.   CISC if done is an translator.Apr 22 15:38
oiaohmI do like what amd is doing to the translator pushing it back before the cpu caches.Apr 22 15:38
oiaohmBasically RISC won and CISC found a loop hole to stay in game.Apr 22 15:39
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I wouldn't be so certain because there is still an apparent need to fufill out-of-order executionsApr 22 15:39
Ziomatrixoiaohm: just take most complaints people had for the CELL BE for exampleApr 22 15:40
oiaohmThere is more than 1 way todo out of order executions.Apr 22 15:40
Ziomatrixoiaohm: having some CISC in there is the easiest way thoughApr 22 15:41
oiaohmNo easiest is a lazy hack.Apr 22 15:42
oiaohmIe hyperthreading method.  ZiomatrixApr 22 15:42
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so is there any positive attribute to maintaining CISC at some level?Apr 22 15:44
Ziomatrixoiaohm: perhaps its lazy in a way but certainly cheaper for costs then incorporating a DSP, FPU and other SoCs into the CPUApr 22 15:45
Ziomatrixok maybe not FPU so much as that is now fully integratedApr 22 15:45
oiaohmRemember the first X86 CISC chips that supported out of order are the pents that have the start of a risc core.Apr 22 15:46
oiaohmArm is starting to implement the same out of order tricks on standard risc like instructions.Apr 22 15:47
Ziomatrixoiaohm: but its kind of strange that Intel went more CISC with the AtomApr 22 15:47
oiaohmPowerApr 22 15:47
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so they only did it to ensure it requires the lowest voltage it possibley couldApr 22 15:48
oiaohmYou simply cannot be power effective and have a translator from cisc to risc or vice verser.Apr 22 15:48
Ziomatrixoiaohm: then what does that make the Nano?Apr 22 15:48
Diablo-D3oiaohm: btw noApr 22 15:49
oiaohmNano is still not what you call power effective when you compare to an arm chip.Apr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3pentiums wernt the firstApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3pentium pros wereApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3and p2s inherited a similar designApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3cisc, btw, lostApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3it didnt win at allApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3K8s and up, for example, are all risc internallyApr 22 15:49
Diablo-D3up to the point that with special voodoo magic, you can use the risc language directlyApr 22 15:50
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: so you're saying the only reason why CISC translation is there is for legacy?Apr 22 15:50
Diablo-D3yesApr 22 15:50
Diablo-D3P4s were Intel's first truly all risc core too, btwApr 22 15:51
oiaohmCISC only has a 1 minor advantages.   Executable size that does help transfers.  Other than that legacy is about the only other advantage.Apr 22 15:51
Diablo-D3oiaohm: thats not an advantageApr 22 15:51
Diablo-D3executable code is so small its basically not there at allApr 22 15:51
oiaohmBut executable compression and decompression would do basically the same advantage as CISC if not better.Apr 22 15:52
Diablo-D3nopeApr 22 15:53
Diablo-D3because you have hardware dedicated to the task of CISC decodingApr 22 15:53
Diablo-D3which uses a lot of real estate on the dieApr 22 15:54
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oiaohmIts a balance off game Diablo-D3.  Area to decode CISC vs Area required  for storage of program.  Then power to get program vs how much CISC is going to chew up.  Yes lot of times I don't see CISC as worth it.Apr 22 15:56
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] G'morning, everyone. Still full of cold, hopefully today will see some improvement. Bah!Apr 22 15:56
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you're doing that "not listening to what people say" thing againApr 22 15:56
Ziomatrixoiaohm: but what about for virtualization or a hypervisor that directly accesses the CPU?Apr 22 15:57
Diablo-D3program code size is non-existent compared to all the other traffic that goes through the cpu busApr 22 15:57
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: so then what does that make platforms such as CRISP and CELL's SPUs?Apr 22 15:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #IBM Might Pay #Microsoft More for Software Patents in #Linux Through #SUSE / #Novell 22 15:58
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Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: include modern gpgpu designs into that tooApr 22 15:59
oiaohmSOC Diablo-D3  Where the program ends up in chip with memory controller.  Gain is minor sometimes smaller dia.  When I am talking about area vs area its inside a soc not facing bus hell.Apr 22 15:59
Diablo-D3basically, massive multithreaded simplistic processorsApr 22 15:59
Diablo-D3they're designed to do vector programs that are stupidly easy to multithreadApr 22 15:59
Diablo-D3oiaohm: you're talking about microcode, I assume. Both Intel and AMD microcode is written in their native risc micro-op languageApr 22 16:00
oiaohmZiomatrix:  I guess you have not seen way tile gx chips do hypervisors.Apr 22 16:00
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_goblinhi allApr 22 16:01
Ziomatrixoiaohm: you're reffering to that startup Tilera, isn't that a soft microprocessor?Apr 22 16:02
Diablo-D3ermApr 22 16:03
Diablo-D3is he talking something like Transmeta?Apr 22 16:03
Diablo-D3their shit was a failure for a reasonApr 22 16:03
Diablo-D3you couldn't code a micro-op program to deal with fast path code fast enough to win against a native implementationApr 22 16:03
Diablo-D3this is, btw, why ARM wins performance/wattApr 22 16:03
oiaohmDiablo-D3: Niether Intel and AMD can process CISC without their microcode.  I was more refering to SOC style with basically core program already in the memory.  All CISC there is really being used as compression. Apr 22 16:04
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: I think this is the CPU thats being reffered to: and its a kind of this: 22 16:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Tilera Targets Intel, AMD With 100-core Processor - PCWorld .::. Size~: 68.45 KBApr 22 16:04
TechrightsBotTitle: Soft microprocessor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 32.66 KBApr 22 16:04
Diablo-D3ohApr 22 16:05
Diablo-D3specially engineered DSPs?Apr 22 16:05
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[thistleweb] Occasionally the BBC remember to mention the "Windows" word in a security story | Security update hits Window PCs 22 16:05
Diablo-D3oiaohm: that has no place in this discussionApr 22 16:05
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Diablo-D3they're very CISCey because they have hardcoded paths for specific tasksApr 22 16:05
Diablo-D3this is what, for example, 3D accelerators looked like in the beginningApr 22 16:06
Diablo-D3they started as math coprocessors that did very specific forms of math, and nothing outside of itApr 22 16:06
Diablo-D3then pipelines of fixed functionApr 22 16:06
Diablo-D3they eventually, like all hardware, turned as generic as it getsApr 22 16:06
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: kind of, its like having a string of in-order processors with each being tasked with a specific intrustion that can be fed to it from a program in its entirety using some sort of logic synthesis. I can barely comprehend its practicality myself.Apr 22 16:06
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: thats FPGAApr 22 16:07
Diablo-D3its only useful for processor designApr 22 16:07
Diablo-D3you dont actually deploy these in the real worldApr 22 16:07
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: Tilera apprently thinks it can for large web databased on the cheapApr 22 16:07
Diablo-D3it cantApr 22 16:08
oiaohmTilera are many small risc chips grided.    With gates able to make hypervisor zones.Apr 22 16:08
Diablo-D3oiaohm: yes, and its stupidApr 22 16:08
Diablo-D3for example, to do an ARM Cortex A8 on FGPAApr 22 16:08
Diablo-D3you need about 200 watts of FGBAApr 22 16:09
Diablo-D3in a fucking gigantic packageApr 22 16:09
Diablo-D3all to do what, after actually being fabbed, is tiny as hell and uses a watt or two.Apr 22 16:09
oiaohmIts not FPGA.Apr 22 16:09
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[nsisodiya] Ubuntu 10.04 Tshirt Order form for India - 22 16:09
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Ziomatrixoiaohm: but how do you explain that it can be fed languages directly?Apr 22 16:09
Diablo-D3if its not FPGAApr 22 16:10
Diablo-D3its transmeta's techniqueApr 22 16:10
oiaohmIts not transmetas eitehr.Apr 22 16:10
Diablo-D3which basically ran specially coded "compilers" (in an extremely weak sense of the word) as the microcodeApr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3you pay a huge penalty for itApr 22 16:11
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: you mean internal virtualization?Apr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3its simply not worth itApr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: no, emulationApr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3virtualization means its a fake machine, but its real hardware behind itApr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3anyhow, Im going to bedApr 22 16:11
Diablo-D3night allApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3oh, andApr 22 16:12
oiaohmAnd tilgras are not really virtualization either.Apr 22 16:12
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: so then does that leave other CPUs such as VIA's Nano on the same boat?Apr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3 22 16:12
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oiaohmIts zoning of physical hardware.  Diablo-D3Apr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: you cant do low wattage x86. period.Apr 22 16:12
Ziomatrixalright goodnightApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3even AMD's smalled Fusion designs are iffyApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3and thats the first x86 ever that can be put in an iPhone form factor and work as intendedApr 22 16:12
Ziomatrixso ARM is best suited for that applicationApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3yes, for bare bottom low wattage, ARM winsApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3periodApr 22 16:12
Diablo-D3you cant possibly fight it with x86Apr 22 16:13
oiaohmBasically Diablo-D3 tilgras are something unique.Apr 22 16:13
Diablo-D3oiaohm: its dumb.Apr 22 16:13
Ziomatrixhowever what will happen once more general computing is demanded from mobile devices?Apr 22 16:13
Diablo-D3Ziomatrix: ARM isnt not general computingApr 22 16:13
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: the Cortex A9 seems to be going in that direction with more out-of-order instruction sets through general superscalingApr 22 16:13
Diablo-D3A9 went true SMP multicoreApr 22 16:14
ZiomatrixokApr 22 16:14
Diablo-D3OoO doesn't buy you much on ARM, btwApr 22 16:14
Diablo-D3since all the instructions have to complete in one clock cycleApr 22 16:14
Ziomatrixso thats not the same as trying to cram more complex or general language instruction into one setApr 22 16:14
Diablo-D3ARM doesnt need any more instructionsApr 22 16:14
Diablo-D3and it very rarely gets new onesApr 22 16:14
Diablo-D3the "new" instructions are all very special purpose ones for very specific tasksApr 22 16:15
Diablo-D3going to bed, nightApr 22 16:15
ZiomatrixDiablo-D3: thats good and I hope nobody mucks that upApr 22 16:15
ZiomatrixthanksApr 22 16:15
Ziomatrixoiaohm: do you agree with his accessment? Apr 22 16:15
Ziomatrixassessment I meanApr 22 16:16
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oiaohmArm target is instructions in 1 clock cycle for power reasons.Apr 22 16:17
oiaohmOnly reason ARM need out of order is delays.  IE stuff not ready to process.Apr 22 16:19
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Ziomatrixoiaohm: but do you think RISC is the end all be all of the core processing of CPUs?Apr 22 16:19
oiaohmI don't think CISC will stay.Apr 22 16:19
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trmancohi guysApr 22 16:20
Ziomatrixque pasaApr 22 16:21
oiaohm  Used by current tilera does have some advantages.  Ok  transmeta had same core instruction type but they had microcode translators infrount of it.Apr 22 16:22
trmancohehApr 22 16:22
TechrightsBotTitle: Very long instruction word - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 58.07 KBApr 22 16:22
oiaohmIe translators are a killer.  ZiomatrixApr 22 16:22
trmancoTechrightsBot: ?Apr 22 16:23
oiaohmYep out bot renamed trmancoApr 22 16:23
oiaohmout/ourApr 22 16:23
trmancois it still my creation?Apr 22 16:23
trmancoah coolApr 22 16:23
trmancogood to know that somebody still uses itApr 22 16:23
Omar87Hi all.Apr 22 16:24
oiaohmZiomatrix: Diablo-D3 is very closed minded on what a genernal  progressor has to be.   There are more arm chips out thier than PC's.   Just because desktops are dominate now does not mean they will stay that way.Apr 22 16:24
Ziomatrixoiaohm: thats interesting, it seems the move for desktop CPUs is to use more actual muscle and the advantages of SMP to overcome limitations of elaborate instructions Apr 22 16:25
oiaohmPersonally I see arm taking are more tileria method to hypervisors combind with there own.  Since number 1 it secure.  Number two shutdown down segments of the hypervisor to save power is simple.Apr 22 16:26
trmancowhere is schestowitz?Apr 22 16:27
Ziomatrixoiaohm: but can this help in creating processors that are easier to create programs that can optimize and determine what is fed to them though or will CPUs remain as something alient to most application developers?Apr 22 16:27
oiaohmThe translator engine in most cpus make optimisation impossiable.Apr 22 16:27
oiaohmIe x86 cpus.Apr 22 16:28
oiaohmx86 cpus make supprisingly good random number generators timign how long it takes to run the same code.Apr 22 16:28
Ziomatrixtrmanco: he was on about an hour agoApr 22 16:28
trmancohmmApr 22 16:28
trmancoZiomatrix: thanksApr 22 16:28
oiaohmHe said he might go to gym.  trmanco then disappeared.Apr 22 16:28
trmancoI guess I can stick around for a whileApr 22 16:29
oiaohmAnd he had 4 articals he wanted to write as well trmancoApr 22 16:29
oiaohmI don't know what one won out.  trmancoApr 22 16:29
oiaohmtileria and arm chips are quite predictiable to optimise for.  Ziomatrix  You don't have the possiablity of the chip containing a different micro code and performing different because of it.Apr 22 16:30
oiaohmIe a microcode update for a intel or a amd chip can alter how it performs.  So making optimisation perfect to processor impossiable.Apr 22 16:31
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Eye on Security: MSBBC Misinformation, #McAfee Chops Windows, #Vista7 Severely Broken 22 16:31
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oiaohmOk he is writing.Apr 22 16:32
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Ziomatrixoiaohm: so do you see the future of computing with a specific platform/s or just an arena where hardware varies about as much as the smallest repo or application library?Apr 22 16:36
oiaohmI see us heading into another tech storm.Apr 22 16:37
oiaohmWhere for a while at least most commonly used platforms fragment.Apr 22 16:37
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oiaohmAt the end of it desktop phone devices ....  Will all basically be running the same OS or releated OS's.   ZiomatrixApr 22 16:38
oiaohmHardware side will most likely never be as unified as the x86 age again.  Ziomatrix.    OS stuck to one processor type was required to create the x86 abnormality.Apr 22 16:39
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so what do you think is the single OS or kernel to unite them all?Apr 22 16:40
oiaohmAt this stage Linux .Apr 22 16:41
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I kind of feel disdain towards the prospect of one OS, but least with one that is open source the possibilities of forking and creating unique APIs thus GUIs is endless.Apr 22 16:41
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I would also like to see POIX certified micro-kernels catch on more, they are the solution to many smartphone problemsApr 22 16:42
oiaohmWe have had mostly 1 OS dominate in each field.Apr 22 16:42
Ziomatrixoiaohm: however with Linux what does that leave future open source projects such as Haiku and Inferno/Plan 9?Apr 22 16:42
oiaohmSame place they are now.Apr 22 16:43
oiaohmBut at least with a sporting chance to compete against Linux.Apr 22 16:43
oiaohmCompared trying to compete against windows where they would have to reverse drivers all the time.Apr 22 16:43
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I wonder what will be of QNX since they got aquired by RIMApr 22 16:43
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I'm going off on a tangent. I guess you got a point that having an ecosystem of OSs sharing similar kernels or at least instructions is good for fostering competition and ensuring easy cross-platforming.Apr 22 16:45
oiaohmWish I could find the symbian statement from nokia where they were saying they left it too late to open source.Apr 22 16:45
oiaohmThat is the problem that is coming ZiomatrixApr 22 16:45
oiaohmLinux will make it simple to go cross platform between most of them.Apr 22 16:45
oiaohmLike MS mainataines a independant OS in phone space to there main OS.Apr 22 16:46
oiaohmApple does not really.   All apple OS's are releated.  But due to their insane heavy handness with developers likely to push developers away.Apr 22 16:47
oiaohmBasically MS is dead in water in the upcoming game unless they change majorally.  ZiomatrixApr 22 16:47
oiaohmApple has the game right bar for treatment of developers.   So most likely also dead in water.Apr 22 16:47
oiaohmRIM has been bad to everyone.   So also dead in water.Apr 22 16:48
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I would argue that the iPhone's OSX is deliberately stripped literally and through dev EULAs in order to be limited compared to the desktop version. Some people wonder if thats the future of many of their PCs too.Apr 22 16:48
oiaohmBasically only issue Linux has is what one of there own will win.  Ie Android or Meego or some other distribution.Apr 22 16:48
Ziomatrixoiaohm: Android is about as much Linux as OSX is UnixApr 22 16:49
oiaohmGoogle will be working to bring the core of android back to the Linux main.Apr 22 16:49
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I still think smartphones would be better off with micro-kernelsApr 22 16:50
oiaohmLinux kernel is a hybred.  ZiomatrixApr 22 16:50
oiaohmYes Linux kernel support user mode drivers like a micro kernelApr 22 16:51
oiaohmIt also support monolithic drivers.Apr 22 16:51
Ziomatrixoiaohm: which means it has the benefits of a microkernel but all the vulnerabilities and potential memory issues of a monolithic one Apr 22 16:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Opinions on the emergence of the #ACTA text and what it means to #Freesoftware 22 16:52
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oiaohmfor the vulnerablities of the monolithic one it gains speed of the monolithic one ZiomatrixApr 22 16:53
oiaohmWhen it used microkernel features it takes the speed hit of being microkernel.Apr 22 16:53
oiaohmMicrokernel is not a all round win option ZiomatrixApr 22 16:53
oiaohmPrice has to be paid for it.Apr 22 16:54
Ziomatrixoiaohm: but that can be worked around with explicitly optimized software and drivers, I still think there are merits to the Symbian approach.Apr 22 16:54
oiaohmNo it cannot be worked around.Apr 22 16:54
Ziomatrixoiaohm: true but I feel that price is less necissary for mobile devices and hobby OSsApr 22 16:54
oiaohmBattery live is critical to mobile devicesApr 22 16:54
oiaohmThat is where the argument between main Linux kernel and google broke out with androids kernel.Apr 22 16:55
Ziomatrixoiaohm: I see, I guess micro v. mono kernels is becoming like that of RISC v. CISC as wellApr 22 16:55
oiaohmReally for battery life monolitchic wins.Apr 22 16:55
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so where do you see the real benefits of micro being utilized?Apr 22 16:56
oiaohmSpeed and power.(monolithic)   Stablitiy and crash resistance(micro kernel)Apr 22 16:56
oiaohmBut the means to restart Linux in under 1 second is undoing the Stablity and crash resistance need.Apr 22 16:57
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so you see microkernels going the way of CISC even before they ever reached the possibility for popularityApr 22 16:58
oiaohmStablity and secuirty is (micro kernels)Apr 22 16:58
oiaohmReally I see hybred winning out.  ZiomatrixApr 22 16:58
oiaohmIe both monolithic and micro kernels pure be no more.Apr 22 16:59
Ziomatrixoiaohm: isn't compromise the case with many competing technologiesApr 22 16:59
oiaohmYes when the tech advantages are multarlly execulsive.Apr 22 17:00
oiaohmWindows NT was one of the first attempts at hybred.  But they gave up lots of the micro kernel ideals.Apr 22 17:00
oiaohmLike Linux cuse and fuse drivers are pure to the micro kernel idea.Apr 22 17:01
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oiaohmTo get advantages of micro kernel and monolithic is merging the techs not compromise.   Ie the ideals of both must remain or the advantages of the designs will be lost.  ZiomatrixApr 22 17:02
Ziomatrixoiaohm: so you can have applications in Linux have access to filesystems such as ZFS independetly of the OS itself, coolApr 22 17:03
oiaohmNTFS-3G driver is a big one.  Its full userspace.  ZiomatrixApr 22 17:03
Ziomatrixoiaohm: lol and thats what many Mac users have if they want to run an NTFS exteneral driveApr 22 17:04
oiaohmYep it code is platform netural.Apr 22 17:04
oiaohmThe nature of the Linux microkernel parts.Apr 22 17:04
oiaohmThere is no particular reason why micro kernel parts have to be OS dependant.Apr 22 17:05
Ziomatrixoiaohm: if folks had the slightest incling of the potential of what nix/FOSS has they would be dumping all M$ sharesApr 22 17:05
oiaohmFOSS winning is winning lots of small battles first.Apr 22 17:06
oiaohmLike increasing the use of OpenOffice.Apr 22 17:06
oiaohmMS most likely has a few more years left in them yet.Apr 22 17:07
oiaohmfanotify in the works as well will help Linux take off.  Ie a standard way to connect anti-virus and other protection software to the kernel.Apr 22 17:08
oiaohmSo windows people who have the I must intall a real time scanning system can fell more at home.Apr 22 17:08
oiaohmI am off to bed ZiomatrixApr 22 17:09
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Firefox and other Free/libre Web browsers are discriminated against in #Microsoft 's ballot due to yet another "error" 22 17:15
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scientes_how do i edit the source directly in lyx?Apr 22 17:19
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[omar_s_hafez] So, where's my e-mail? Was it abducted by aliens on its way to my inbox?@Bashar_KokashApr 22 17:21
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[anivar] RT @sunil_abraham: #India Introduces Major #Copyright Reform Bill 22 17:36
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] An announcement from Mark Zuckerberg reveals his true colours and long known connections with #Microsoft #facebookApr 22 17:41
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] Hugo Lueders (CompTIA): Association’s Members Are “Trade Secret” 22 18:18
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Yay! #oggcamp mugs have arrived! 22 18:28
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Chips_B_MalroyHi Roy, hi allApr 22 18:42
Chips_B_MalroyRoy, if you here, did you see the stuff I posted here last night on foreclosures and the sub $100 ARM laptops on USA ebay?Apr 22 18:43
Chips_B_MalroyThought te foreclosures stuff would fit in on what you are doing with Goldman SucksApr 22 18:44
Chips_B_Malroyerr, *SacksApr 22 18:44
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Windows under attack on two fronts? Even more problems ahead? #microsoft #exploit #malware #windows #fail #mvpApr 22 18:47
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ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: I didn'tApr 22 18:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] #Apple ’s Latest Mischiefs, Ignores Mono’s Pleas 22 18:53
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Chips_B_MalroyZiomatrix> it should come out maybe in the log todayApr 22 18:53
Chips_B_MalroyThe important part about the cheap sub $100 ARM's that are now on Ebay in USA, is the Race to the Bottom for MS and its Windows CE.  How much can MS make on a ARM laptop that sells for $86 including shipping from China?Apr 22 18:55
ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: a dollar?Apr 22 18:56
Chips_B_MalroyAnd they are talking about putting these in blisterpacks and selling them in Walgreens and the DollarstoresApr 22 18:56
ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: lol jk, more like maybe 30 cents to the dollarApr 22 18:57
Chips_B_Malroyno, it would not be a dollar, of course, but many Dollar stores do have higher priced goods as wellApr 22 18:57
Chips_B_Malroyat some point these cheap ARM's are going have an effect on the bottom line at MS bigtimeApr 22 18:58
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Woop Woop! MythTV Works very nicely on the O2 Joggler! 22 19:00
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ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: but thats if they ever catch on, if Apple has prooved anything its that high prices can be a positive attribute if marketed as "premium"Apr 22 19:00
Chips_B_Malroythere is actually about 3 different versions of the same ARM cheap laptop on ebay.  They all look the same, but one is using a 266mz cpu, other is using a "VIA-ARM" cpu.  The Via-arm is interesting, because I did come across a comment online somewhere, that linux could be put on that one, but its unverified.Apr 22 19:00
Chips_B_MalroyZiomatrix>  there is a market for all things of value, you just have to find the right price.  That price seems to be $86 on ebay right now.  The ones for $92 and up (including shipping) do not seem to be selling.Apr 22 19:02
Ziomatrixyou mean ones like this little gem? 22 19:03
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Chips_B_MalroyAlso, it could be no body wants Windows CE, they understand its not XP, its a phone OS, and not a very good one.  Now it might sell with Linux or Android/Chrome on it better.  Apr 22 19:03
Chips_B_Malroyyes, but its unverified that it works with Linux-Arm (Debian)Apr 22 19:04
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ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: the thing is they may not be ARM CPUs but rather a VIA C7 with some kind of sound and media ARM co-processor in thereApr 22 19:05
Chips_B_Malroythis is what I wondered tooApr 22 19:06
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Chips_B_Malroystill you got to love the price if it isApr 22 19:07
Chips_B_MalroyThese prices are going hurt MS badlyApr 22 19:07
ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: this one definitely runs on an ARM CPU at 300mhz: but other I posted which is 1.2Ghz I'm not sureApr 22 19:07
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Chips_B_MalroyNow these are puny ARMS.  300mhz Arm cpu, 128mb ram, 2gb storage, 7" lcd, and the batteries do not even last that long.  But, they sure are cheap.  This one went for $86 which included shipping.  Sadly they come with Windows CE 6.0 installed.  I would be interested if Debian ARM or Google Android/Chrome could be installed with an external usb dvd drive. 22 19:09
Chips_B_MalroyThere are a whole bunch of these now on ebay, most with buyitnow with free shipping starting at about $92 US.  A real interesting link above on these, who makes em.  MS cannot be making any money of these to speak of.Apr 22 19:09
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Ziomatrixthe link you posted is brokenApr 22 19:10
Ziomatrixnvm got itApr 22 19:10
Chips_B_Malroythe one in the link is made by  Anky 7802Apr 22 19:10
Chips_B_MalroyI had more links posted last night, about the makers, which was really interesting.  Apr 22 19:11
ZiomatrixI'll check the logs sometimeApr 22 19:12
Chips_B_MalroyThis looks to me to be the real start of the Race to the Bottom of computer pricing, which may spell the end of MS as we know it.Apr 22 19:13
MinceRnow they'll have returned wince machines, pwnt :>Apr 22 19:13
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[ruiseabra] In 2 hours, Sonic Youth!Apr 22 19:13
Chips_B_MalroyI am now on a campaign to ask some of these ebay sellers if its possible to replace Windows CE on these laptops with a real OS like Debian ARM or Android/Chrome.Apr 22 19:14
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Chips_B_MalroyGetting them to find out, and put the information in their ebay auctions, can only help them sell them, if its possible to do so.Apr 22 19:15
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sebsebsebHiApr 22 19:17
Chips_B_MalroyThe Churchill quote about WW2, seems to have relavence here with reguard to MS and these cheap ARM's.   "This is not the end, but the beginning of the end."  Or something of that nature.Apr 22 19:18
ZiomatrixChips_B_Malroy: I wonder if these laptops are built so cheaply that the actual OS and ROM memory is really on an SD cardApr 22 19:18
Chips_B_Malroyflash memory yes, expansion of an sd card yesApr 22 19:19
Chips_B_Malroythey are really cheapApr 22 19:19
Chips_B_MalroyI doubt that an 300mhz ARM is going do video goodApr 22 19:19
Chips_B_Malroybut then I used to buy old thinkpads 560x with 233mhz intels and put w98 on them for garage sales, they worked wellApr 22 19:21
Chips_B_Malroycheap to pick up old 98 disksApr 22 19:21
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_goblinchange the topicApr 22 19:23
neighborleeparallel dimension has hit us ;)Apr 22 19:23
_goblinlets hope its one without MicrosoftApr 22 19:23
_goblinor ballmerApr 22 19:24
neighborleeLOLApr 22 19:24
_goblinwouldn't like to think there was two of them.Apr 22 19:24
neighborleeEEK gad yesApr 22 19:24
_goblinit would be Developers,Developers,Developers,Developers,Developers,Developers,Apr 22 19:24
_goblininstead of Developers,Developers,Developers,Apr 22 19:24
_goblinWindows - The parallel universe edition.... Apr 22 19:26
_goblinif we go off the theory of infinate universes then one must have a world where Windows actually works and is secure.Apr 22 19:26
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Chips_B_Malroyquote:  "World's Cheapest Laptops are:Merimobiles, ARM-Based "No Names" (100's of them),Cherrypal,Sungworld  Cheap Chinese brands are taking over from pricey netbooks. Already there are *hundreds* of brands based on ARM processors, and available in China and even on the streets of New York. Soon they will be on blister-pack cards at places like Walgreen's and the dollar stores. Here's where to get them -- ANY DAY -- Apr 22 19:27
Chips_B_MalroyThese are the ones on ebayApr 22 19:28
Chips_B_Malroyquote "A PC hanging on a card in a Dollar store: Revolutionary. Commoditized, no-name PCs hitting you in the face at store checkouts everywhere you go, for a really low price: The ultimate impulse buy - irresistible."Apr 22 19:29
neighborleeyeah but how big are the displaysApr 22 19:34
neighborleeand what can they run beyond simple web browsers I wonderApr 22 19:35
neighborleealthough these days..people want  things powered cleanly and requiring less and less power TO runApr 22 19:35
Chips_B_Malroywell they small 7" displays, they are made to compete with Netbooks and IpadsApr 22 19:36
Chips_B_Malroythey would not replace a primary computer for people like us.Apr 22 19:37
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Gotta love Mono advocates. Trying to defend a poorer cousin of a Microsoft Tech. Next they will be defending Moonlight......oh they do.Apr 22 19:37
Chips_B_MalroyHi Goblin!Apr 22 19:38
neighborleeChips_B_Malroy, def.not yupApr 22 19:40
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Chips_B_Malroyneighborlee> I would not consider using Windows CE either.  If I cannot put Linux ARM on it, its useless to me.Apr 22 19:41
neighborleeway agreed ;)Apr 22 19:41
neighborleeas much as I currently 'need' windows..I wont go running towards it long as I have alternatives Apr 22 19:42
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neighborleewhy lock ones self into propreitary , when things like android are as good if not better ;)Apr 22 19:42
Chips_B_Malroyandroid is at less freer than CEApr 22 19:43
Chips_B_Malroy*leastApr 22 19:43
neighborleequite ;)Apr 22 19:43
Chips_B_MalroyThere is always a market for cheap.  Its how Japan started selling after WW2 here.Apr 22 19:46
Chips_B_MalroyChina has replaced Japan in that reguard nowApr 22 19:47
Chips_B_Malroyand now China will do the same with ARMApr 22 19:47
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Chips_B_Malroypeople who would never buy a computer before, will think about (impluse) one priced at $70 at Walgreens.  Apr 22 19:48
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[zoobab] Microsoft re-released the proprietary WMV9 as the open VC-1, which they claimed to be royalty-free, did not last long: 22 19:48
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Chips_B_MalroyHey jono, do you know if Ubuntu is working on their ARM version?Apr 22 19:49
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jonoChips_B_Malroy, yep we work on ARMApr 22 19:51
Chips_B_Malroyyou have any idea when it will be released as an iso?Apr 22 19:52
Chips_B_MalroyI have the Debain ARM DVD iso.  But Ubuntu installers are usually better.Apr 22 19:53
Chips_B_Malroyas in easyApr 22 19:54
WireWulfDebain isnt easy to install?Apr 22 19:55
Chips_B_MalroyWireWulf> it is on x86, I cannot say on ARM, I have the disk, but not the ARM computer to try it onApr 22 19:56
Chips_B_MalroyUsually Debian requires a little more setup than Ubuntu, Mint, Mepis, and other distros based on DebainApr 22 19:57
*WireWulf profers debian Apr 22 19:57
WireWulfno offence jono Apr 22 19:57
Chips_B_Malroyis my opinionApr 22 19:57
WireWulfhonistly i am hooked on gentooApr 22 19:57
WireWulfxDApr 22 19:57
Chips_B_Malroybut once you get there with Debian, its very goodApr 22 19:58
jonoChips_B_Malroy, no ideaApr 22 19:59
Chips_B_MalroyJono> thanks for the repliesApr 22 19:59
Chips_B_Malroyits usually that way in most distros, when its done, its done, it cannot be rushed, it has to workApr 22 20:00
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Tomcat rocking in the Lucid Lynx - #ubuntuApr 22 20:00
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] The always awesome Dan Williams continues to bring the NetworkManager love - 22 20:02
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Omar87lol, I really love it when a MS sheep tells you they're going to send you an e-mail and then you wait forever the e-mail never shows up. :-)Apr 22 20:03
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tessier_schestowitz: Cool, I like Nagios. Tried Zenoss for a while but just couldn't figure it out. The Nagios user interface kinda sucks though. Wish it didn't use frames and 90's style cgi.Apr 22 20:04
tessier_schestowitz: Saw the news about RH dropping Xen for KVM. Not surprising. I will probably have to move to kvm eventually. Just seems like paravirt offers some nice advantages.Apr 22 20:05
tessier_Hope AoE works well in kvm.Apr 22 20:05
tessier_I have had a heck of a time with it and xen lately. Apr 22 20:05
neighborleeOmar87, lolApr 22 20:09
neighborleeOmar87, I love the visual :))Apr 22 20:09
Omar87neighborlee, visual? Apr 22 20:09
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Omar87neighborlee: Excuse me, what visual exactly? Is it the "Abducted by aliens" thing? :DApr 22 20:15
neighborleelolApr 22 20:15
neighborleevisual as in..seeing in minds eye something Apr 22 20:15
Omar87neighborlee, yeah. But to which visual are you referring, that's what I'm asking. Apr 22 20:17
neighborleeohApr 22 20:17
neighborleesheepApr 22 20:17
neighborleelolApr 22 20:17
Omar87neighborlee, oh! Lol. :)Apr 22 20:17
neighborlee:)Apr 22 20:17
Omar87'coz really, they are sheep. I'm not sorry because they brought it to themselves.Apr 22 20:18
neighborleemindless herding of sheep..though my dog could do just as well as M$ if not alot better LOLApr 22 20:18
neighborleeie: he's a herding dog..: kelpie/cattledog mix ;)Apr 22 20:18
neighborleeyes he's cute ;)Apr 22 20:18
neighborleelolApr 22 20:18
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neighborleeand very awnry ;) Apr 22 20:18
Omar87lol :)Apr 22 20:19
neighborlee:)Apr 22 20:19
neighborleehaApr 22 20:19
Omar87kool!Apr 22 20:19
neighborleespeaking of which he wants to go outside,,NOWApr 22 20:19
neighborleebrb<yes ,,he herdsme too!>Apr 22 20:19
MinceRbeing dominated by a dog is a sad state for a human to be inApr 22 20:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] Change *I* can believe in - - #ubuntu #desktop #gnome #fvwm #opensource #communityApr 22 20:22
TechrightsBotTitle:                   Change I Can Believe In | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 23.73 KBApr 22 20:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[jonobacon] ♺ @theacaciastrain: THUMBS UP! REPOST! BRING IT!Apr 22 20:31
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] Privacy supporters remain quiet? & The hypocrisy of “data”? #privacy #piracy #humanrightsApr 22 20:36
_goblinoh...I'll get a comeback from this oneApr 22 20:36
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] Kinda glad I'm not watching #leadersdebate in HD. Standard Definition Gordon is enough!Apr 22 20:40
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[_goblin] All builds of Wolvix can be found on Linuxtracker: My distro of choice #linuxApr 22 20:46
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-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[popey] WTF was that supposed to be Adam Boulton!? 'You were on the cover of the Telegraph today' #leadersdebateApr 22 21:02
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] @schestowitz: "We replaced their web browser with Folgers Crystals. Let's see if they notice." B-)Apr 22 21:02
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neighborleeMinceR, lolApr 22 21:10
neighborleeMinceR, well its his breed you know...he's in control not the 'cows' <wink>Apr 22 21:10
neighborlee < there's my baby..tell me you aren't afraid...VERY afraid LOLApr 22 21:12
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neighborleebut anyhooApr 22 21:13
MinceRneighborlee: do you consider yourself a cow then? :>Apr 22 21:14
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neighborleeMinceR, why sho bro!Apr 22 21:15
neighborleearen't we all in some way..we get herded here to there and not just by gov, but by our partners in crime :)Apr 22 21:16
MinceRi'm notApr 22 21:16
MinceRand i resist attempts to herd meApr 22 21:17
neighborleelolApr 22 21:19
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_goblin"and i resist attempts to herd me" - so you haven't bought your pc or pay for net access or go to work in order to pay for those things? ;)Apr 22 21:32
_goblinone could argue that society fundamentally herds by nature in order to work,Apr 22 21:33
MinceRone could twist words around to make them meaninglessApr 22 21:39
_goblinone could although, one doesn'tApr 22 21:41
_goblinthe point was in order for society to work and in order for you to be a part of it, people are herded, be it by being on time for work, paying bills or looking for promotion.  Society exists because of rules and people following them, otherwise everyone would do as they pleased and it would be anarchyApr 22 21:42
_goblinwages are the "sweet grass" which gets you there....Bills keep the other services going and following the herd would be by complying will all the above.Apr 22 21:43
MinceRand obviously if everyone would do as they pleased it would be badApr 22 21:43
MinceRbecause everybody must be told what to do, right?Apr 22 21:44
MinceRwoe to the one who would dare make decisions for himselfApr 22 21:44
_goblinof course.....if you don't have a leader then how would decisions for the herd be leader and everyone would think themselves right.Apr 22 21:44
MinceRthe idea of society herding itself is interesting tooApr 22 21:44
MinceRif you need a leader, go find one for yourself :>Apr 22 21:45
_goblinbut again a leader or figurehead is needed or otherwise is it not directionless.Apr 22 21:45
MinceRemergent behavior is not directionlessApr 22 21:45
_goblinwhat would stop everyone doing as they pleased?Apr 22 21:45
_goblinthat doesn't sound productive.Apr 22 21:45
MinceRis productivity the ultimate goal for life?Apr 22 21:46
schestowitztessier_: remember how in the Wiki the RSS feeds (magpieRSS) wouldn't show up in the text and you did something to sort it out? We have this issue again since 1.5 weeks ago when we swapped domains.Apr 22 21:46
_goblinwell yes in respect of a working society....there has to be a common goal for everyone to work too.Apr 22 21:46
MinceRdo you imagine the universe as a big factory?Apr 22 21:46
MinceReveryone needs the same common goal and everyone needs to think alike?Apr 22 21:46
_goblinyes. I suppose so and even the universe itself works to a set of rules.....if it didn't would it exist?Apr 22 21:47
tessier_schestowitz: Ah...ok. Let me recall what that was...Apr 22 21:47
MinceRthat's a meaningless questionApr 22 21:47
_goblinand people do not need to think alike, merely be unique within the confined of the general common goal.Apr 22 21:47
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] Damned Muslims are at it again. -When is the last time you saw two guys get death threats for lampooning non-Muslims?Apr 22 21:47
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MinceRalso, that "set of rules" you mention are actually a model we constructed to understand and predict its behaviorApr 22 21:47
_goblinno the point was, if physics was chaotic without rules then surely our existance would be doubtful.Apr 22 21:48
MinceRconsider classical mechanics as an example of how such a model can be useful in some cases but not in othersApr 22 21:48
MinceRthe universe is chaotic and we make up rules in our attempt to understand it :>Apr 22 21:48
_goblinit may be chaotic in its result but isnt the behaviour following a set of rules, gravity for example.....Apr 22 21:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[daemonfc] It would be nice if Revolution Muslim was on the FBI's watch list until they could be deported to a country that hates freedom of speech.Apr 22 21:49
_goblinit has a set of rules....however drop a brick on your foot and it will hurt....Apr 22 21:49
_goblinthe brick follows the "rules" depending on where it hits you is how much damage it causes.....the random part if you willApr 22 21:50
MinceRdo you know the rules? :>Apr 22 21:50
_goblinabout the brick or gravity?Apr 22 21:50
_goblin;)Apr 22 21:50
MinceRbothApr 22 21:50
MinceRin generalApr 22 21:50
schestowitztessier_: thanks, it's nothing urgent BTWApr 22 21:51
tessier_schestowitz: I just changed something. Can you test it now?Apr 22 21:51
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] RT @_goblin Gotta love Mono advocates. Trying to defend a poorer cousin of a Microsoft Tech. Next they will be defending Moonlight.....Apr 22 21:51
_goblingravity, I assume (in respect of its behaviour on our planet) is well understood......the random element of how much damage the brick causes......another story.Apr 22 21:51
tessier_I need to change the way the nameservice is done and set up a second nameserver for internal use.Apr 22 21:51
schestowitzThe other non-critical thing is the server not being able to access the site it serves... which gives error when TechrightsBot cites TechrightsApr 22 21:51
schestowitztessier_: that did it!Apr 22 21:52
MinceR_goblin: so you think that the Rules of Gravity have a special case for our planet?Apr 22 21:52
schestowitzWorks now in the Wiki!Apr 22 21:52
tessier_TehcrightsBot probably works now tooApr 22 21:52
_goblinmincer: I would say it arrogant to assume that they don't....Apr 22 21:52
schestowitztessier_: server has worked flawlessly for weeks, so thanks so much for thatApr 22 21:52
schestowitzhttp://techrights.comApr 22 21:52
tessier_My pleasureApr 22 21:52
TechrightsBotTitle: Main Page - Techrights .::. Size~: 31.38 KBApr 22 21:52
_goblinmincer: since there is so much of the universe we don't understand.Apr 22 21:52
MinceR_goblin: i would say it arrogant to assume that they doApr 22 21:52
schestowitzYeah, worksApr 22 21:53
schestowitzI don't know whether to renew the xandros and linspire domainsApr 22 21:53
schestowitzYou have 5 domains pointing to the same site now :-)Apr 22 21:53
_goblinmaybe that came out wrong.....what I meant was that just because we have the rules defined for gravity in respect of our planet, it does not mean that rule applies everywhere.Apr 22 21:53
_goblinthats why I say its arrogant to assume it does.Apr 22 21:54
MinceRthen we have them "defined" wrong, from the viewpoint where the Rules are absolute.Apr 22 21:54
_goblinnot really since the rules of gravity (in respect of earth) are defined by our conditions or parameters, who knows how it operates elsewhere in the universe.Apr 22 21:55
MinceRor perhaps we _do_ have a model that's useful locallyApr 22 21:55
_goblinperhaps...Apr 22 21:55
MinceRwho knows? physicist tend to know.Apr 22 21:55
MinceRs/st/sts/Apr 22 21:55
_goblinbut the original point was, rules are the basis of any working entity.  Complete freedom cannot be achieved either in society or in nature.Apr 22 21:56
_goblinimagine if gravity had a random set of rules.Apr 22 21:56
MinceRand the rules didn't change when relativistic mechanics were discovered, eitherApr 22 21:56
*enthymeme has quit (Quit: rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.1.1)Apr 22 21:56
MinceRif you were to live in an universe with those "random set of rules", you wouldn't find them "random" at allApr 22 21:56
_goblinI know what you mean......but then by definition, even if random, it follows a rule.Apr 22 21:57
MinceRby _your_ definitionApr 22 21:57
_goblinthere would be no uniformity....and thats a rule unto itself.Apr 22 21:57
MinceRstrange, earlier you argued that it isn't uniformApr 22 21:57
_goblinsorry, I am talking about the essence or ethos of rules....and Im not agreeing that a random universe would work.....I am merely highlighting that if you site random as evidence of no rules, that in itself is a rule.Apr 22 21:58
_goblin*citeApr 22 21:59
MinceRi didn't cite randomness as evidence of no rulesApr 22 21:59
MinceRi cite the scope and usefulness of rules we _do_ use as examples of different models that we applyApr 22 22:00
_goblin"if you were to live in an universe with those "random set of rules", you wouldn't find them "random" at all" - I thought that was you trying to suggest that nature does not need a set of rules (in theory)Apr 22 22:00
MinceRnature doesn't need a set of rulesApr 22 22:00
MinceRwe doApr 22 22:00
MinceRto understand and predict its behaviorApr 22 22:00
_goblinand we can predict the outcome so the "rules" stand....Throw a brick up, it comes down.Apr 22 22:01
MinceRand then sometimes they don'tApr 22 22:01
MinceRsome of our "rules" are statistical in nature (thermodynamics, for example)Apr 22 22:01
_goblinits not likely to turn into an elephant though is it and if it doesn't come down thats hardly as a result of physics it would be a result of another element involved.Apr 22 22:01
_goblinfor example, throw the brick and a bird swoops down and takes it awayApr 22 22:02
MinceRwhile it's not likely that it will turn into an elephant, it canApr 22 22:02
_goblinI think its safe to say, even with our small knowledge of the universe, that it won't.....that would be chaotic and fly in the face of all the evidence around us....Apr 22 22:03
MinceRyou're ignoring that there's already evidence of chaotic behavior all around and inside usApr 22 22:03
MinceRquantum mechanics, for exampleApr 22 22:03
_goblinIve never seen any object turn into an elephant......and if such a thing could happen then we would have a vastly different experience of our universe.Apr 22 22:04
MinceRthere are many events you have never seenApr 22 22:04
MinceRdo you believe them all to be impossible?Apr 22 22:04
_goblinno, only ones I can see and like I say in the examples of elephants Ive never seen it nor has it ever been documented.Apr 22 22:04
neighborleerules are only d efined ( as in needed ) for those that have a problem with nature :)Apr 22 22:05
schestowitz[21:56] <_goblin> imagine if gravity had a random set of rules.Apr 22 22:05
schestowitzIt's universalApr 22 22:05
schestowitzBut it's different in sub-atomic termsApr 22 22:05
MinceR_goblin: can you see it if it happens a thousand light years from Earth?Apr 22 22:05
_goblinapparently doesn't have a set of rules.Apr 22 22:05
schestowitzThe power that keeps the electrons around the nucleus is vastly greaterApr 22 22:05
_goblinschestowitz: I happen to agree, Im making the point that society, like nature needs rules to function/Apr 22 22:05
MinceRthat's an extremely bad analogyApr 22 22:06
schestowitz_goblin: agreedApr 22 22:06
MinceReven if nature had rules, it would follow them on its ownApr 22 22:06
schestowitzBut rules should changeApr 22 22:06
neighborleeno society does not need rulesApr 22 22:06
MinceRpeople choose to follow or not to follow rulesApr 22 22:06
schestowitzOver timesApr 22 22:06
schestowitz*timeApr 22 22:06
MinceRand they choose what rules to followApr 22 22:06
schestowitzWe develop and changeApr 22 22:06
MinceRand they change the rulesApr 22 22:06
neighborleewe only need rules atm, because we are too inept on purpose atm to  do otherwiseApr 22 22:07
_goblinyes, but as a whole, if everyone did as they pleased it would be original point.Apr 22 22:07
schestowitzRules for pollutions needed in case of overpopulation and fossil fuel burnout for exampleApr 22 22:07
*Chips_B_Malroy (~b80104e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-kajpldjnpapysxgc) has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 22:07
MinceRand anarchy would be greatApr 22 22:07
schestowitzWe no longer need to kill all snakesApr 22 22:07
_goblinRMS might want one thing...I want another....Ballmer has his ideas....Apr 22 22:07
schestowitzWe have housesApr 22 22:07
MinceRyet everyone doing as they please can mean a lot of things, not just anarchyApr 22 22:07
schestowitzMy mate told me today that the Conservatives want to restore fox huntingApr 22 22:07
schestowitzWe watched the Sky debate for 2 hoursApr 22 22:07
_goblinwe are all herded in our daily lives, even if its just getting to work on time, otherwise if you wern't why not just turn up when you wanted.Apr 22 22:08
MinceRi might want to do something to ballmerApr 22 22:08
schestowitzThe Lib Dems have an appeal to themApr 22 22:08
_goblinMincer: Ballmer - Now thats an example of chaotic that proves your point!Apr 22 22:08
MinceR_goblin: even in anarchy, actions have consequences and sane people tend to consider those consequences when deciding what to doApr 22 22:08
MinceRpeople don't need rules to understand consequencesApr 22 22:08
schestowitzIf I had swapped my German nationality for British I could actually vote, but...Apr 22 22:08
Chips_B_Malroy 22 22:08
TechrightsBotTitle: BBC NEWS | News Front Page .::. Size~: 90.97 KBApr 22 22:09
_goblinMincer: But the debate was on a working society.......society cannot exist in anarchy.Apr 22 22:09
MinceR_goblin: it depends on what people it's made ofApr 22 22:09
_goblinany people.....Apr 22 22:09
schestowitzPeople uses to live in villagesApr 22 22:09
MinceRthere already are people with whom anarchy could already workApr 22 22:09
schestowitzSmall coloniesApr 22 22:09
_goblinhow would you convince me to go to work?Apr 22 22:09
MinceRa tiny minorityApr 22 22:09
schestowitzThe world's tyrants didn't kill manuyApr 22 22:09
MinceR_goblin: your employee would offer to give you compensation for your workApr 22 22:09
Chips_B_Malroy"Greece's budget deficit worse than first thought"Apr 22 22:09
schestowitzI think Genghis Kahn only killed about a millionApr 22 22:09
MinceR_goblin: hopefully that's already the caseApr 22 22:09
schestowitzSame with Alexander the GreatApr 22 22:10
MinceRs/employee/employer/Apr 22 22:10
_goblinMincer: There you go, herding......"if you come into my field you get the sweet grass"Apr 22 22:10
schestowitzWith lots of space freedom is easierApr 22 22:10
schestowitzYou arrange it around family and relativesApr 22 22:10
MinceR_goblin: so if i give you an offer you could accept or refuse, i'm herding you?Apr 22 22:10
schestowitzLike gangs of gorillas or other apes doApr 22 22:10
MinceR_goblin: if two people do business with each other, are they herding each other?Apr 22 22:10
_goblinMincer: and so could the "cow" what else do you think gets people doing the jobs nobody else wants to do?Apr 22 22:10
MinceRi don't understand that questionApr 22 22:11
_goblinthe cow can choose....Apr 22 22:11
schestowitzPeople making milk :-)Apr 22 22:11
_goblinwe know what it will chooseApr 22 22:11
MinceRthe cow is nonsentientApr 22 22:11
_goblinreally?Apr 22 22:11
schestowitzToo creamy, needs dilutingApr 22 22:11
MinceRreallyApr 22 22:11
_goblinhow do you know?Apr 22 22:11
schestowitzAnd sterilisationApr 22 22:11
MinceRits behavior betrays its intellectApr 22 22:11 your set of rulesApr 22 22:12
schestowitzcows are a modern speciesApr 22 22:12
MinceRthat's not a function of rulesApr 22 22:12
schestowitzDomesticatedApr 22 22:12
MinceRthere are tests you can do with animals that can't speak/write to test their intelligence, if you can motivate them and they can interact with the testApr 22 22:12
schestowitzjono: re KDE4 looks even better IMHOApr 22 22:12
TechrightsBotTitle:                   Change I Can Believe In | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 36.42 KBApr 22 22:12
MinceRthis has been done in many casesApr 22 22:12
_goblinMincer: So you can motivate a cow but it can't be sentient?Apr 22 22:13
schestowitzDolphins...Apr 22 22:13
_goblinexactly royApr 22 22:13
MinceR_goblin: indeedApr 22 22:13
schestowitzHumans used to be very stupidApr 22 22:13
schestowitzNow we have literatureApr 22 22:13
MinceRdolphins are a lot more intelligent than cowsApr 22 22:13
schestowitzSo info can pass and not lost b/w generationsApr 22 22:13
schestowitzLet me show you a videoApr 22 22:13
MinceRinfo could pass via word of mouthApr 22 22:13
schestowitzWe're basically the same lame people who lives 10k years agoApr 22 22:13
_goblinand how can we put our "sentience" (or understanding of it) onto an animal and say its not.Apr 22 22:13
MinceRit was less effective but it workedApr 22 22:13
schestowitzSame pysical traitsApr 22 22:13
schestowitzSame brainApr 22 22:13
schestowitzBut we don't live in caves and fight jaguarsApr 22 22:14
MinceR_goblin: show me the cow that makes and uses toolsApr 22 22:14
_goblinthat doesn't mean its not sentient.....Apr 22 22:14
MinceRit's an important benchmark, afaikApr 22 22:14
schestowitzWatch this: 22 22:14
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- God: The Love Born of Terror. .::. Size~: 94.93 KBApr 22 22:14
_goblinwhat about the human who has been kept like an animal and can't speak.Apr 22 22:14
_goblinthere was a case of that.Apr 22 22:14
_goblinand a file.Apr 22 22:14
_goblinfilmApr 22 22:14
MinceRthat human still shows many signs of intelligence and sentienceApr 22 22:15
schestowitzChimps are smartApr 22 22:15
schestowitzThey not only use stones to crack nutsApr 22 22:15
_goblinjust like my dog....same signs of intelligence....its open to blackmail it can be happy it can be responds when its in pain, it learns from its mistakes.Apr 22 22:15
schestowitzThey pick branches, removes leaves from them after selection, then use them to hunt and get foodApr 22 22:15
schestowitzA kid without education would be just as smart but with vocal chordsApr 22 22:16
_goblinMy dog, once licked a hot never did it again.Apr 22 22:16
MinceRdogs are overratedApr 22 22:16
schestowitzSo the kid/adult can tell another to grab branchApr 22 22:16
_goblinmy dog knows from the tone of my voice if its in trouble...Apr 22 22:16
schestowitzSingallingApr 22 22:16
schestowitzLike whales doApr 22 22:16
schestowitzWhales have almost universal languages and songsApr 22 22:16
_goblinand my dog (if offered two treats) will choose the one it likes the best.Apr 22 22:16
_goblinTry telling him he's not sentient: 22 22:19
TechrightsBotTitle:  Taken during the recent snow.  Its Goblins GNUdog! In this sh... on Twitpic  .::. Size~: 7.5 KBApr 22 22:19
MinceRi would, though in less formal languageApr 22 22:19
MinceR(i hate dogs anyway)Apr 22 22:19
_goblinHe's seen your handle on IRC......your cards are marked! ;)Apr 22 22:21
_goblin(and yes he does use IRSSI)Apr 22 22:21
schestowitzAndroid OS gets loaded onto the IphoneApr 22 22:21
schestowitz 22 22:21
TechrightsBotTitle:                     Android os gets loaded onto the iphone - The Inquirer          .::. Size~: 61.43 KBApr 22 22:21
schestowitzI recently found that a friend of mine did not understand DNAApr 22 22:22
_goblinHave anyone ever met someone with a good word to say about WinMob?Apr 22 22:22
schestowitzSome smart people are not learning vital information, which is sad and dangerousApr 22 22:22
_goblinapathy roy.Apr 22 22:22
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] Freda likes it when I purr like a cat. "Like *big* meow!"Apr 22 22:22
_goblinno obvious gain for themselves, no interest.Apr 22 22:22
schestowitzWhen society takes pride in ignorance, then we risk the post-Greek revolution descendApr 22 22:22
schestowitzWe ascended just a few centuries agoApr 22 22:22
schestowitzGot telescopesApr 22 22:23
schestowitzGot the planets mapped rightApr 22 22:23
_goblinits the same ignorance that keeps Microsoft in the black.Apr 22 22:23
schestowitzTravelled to planetsApr 22 22:23
schestowitzDeciphered the originApr 22 22:23
schestowitzAnd yet, there's riskApr 22 22:23
MinceR_goblin: i can tell you that WinMob5 sucks less than PalmOS 5 and hypePhone OSApr 22 22:23
schestowitzThose who spread disinformation sometimes grow the mostApr 22 22:23
MinceRbut that's not saying muchApr 22 22:23
_goblinMincer: Thats about the nicest thing Ive seen written.Apr 22 22:23
*MinceR finally got rid of winmob this weekApr 22 22:24
schestowitzThey don't understand what was learned before it was insisted again that the world was flatApr 22 22:24
schestowitzAnd that atoms don't existApr 22 22:24
schestowitzIt's possible to go backwardsApr 22 22:24
_goblinMicrosoft has been doing it for years.Apr 22 22:24
schestowitzGood index for pseudo-science: 22 22:24
TechrightsBotTitle: Skeptoid Episode Guide .::. Size~: 93.65 KBApr 22 22:24
schestowitzAnd this stuff SELLSApr 22 22:24
MinceRi finally got my nokia n97Apr 22 22:24
schestowitzThe US leads the way in the West... when it comes to  pseudo-science promotionApr 22 22:24
_goblinIm HTC AndroidApr 22 22:25
schestowitzThey also lead in the biggest accomploishmentApr 22 22:25
schestowitzWhich is rather ironicApr 22 22:25
schestowitz_goblin: you use it for IRC via twitterApr 22 22:25
schestowitz_goblin: set up an identica account tooApr 22 22:25
_goblinI have an IRC client Apr 22 22:25
MinceRi have an SSH clientApr 22 22:26
_goblinand a Twitter clientApr 22 22:26
schestowitzMinceR: ssh.........!Apr 22 22:26
_goblinschestowitz: The IRC client is impressive........Apr 22 22:26
schestowitzsshow offApr 22 22:26
schestowitz_goblin: what's it based on?Apr 22 22:26
schestowitzAndroid lacks FOSS appsApr 22 22:26
_goblinPass.....Apr 22 22:26
schestowitzAll going via GoogleApr 22 22:27
_goblinIve got a link.....Apr 22 22:27
schestowitzPalm has Yanoff for NGApr 22 22:27
MinceRandroid lacks native apps with proper API accessApr 22 22:27
MinceRwhat android doesn't lack is the kill switchApr 22 22:27
*Chips_B_Malroy has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)Apr 22 22:27
schestowitzSome religious guy took over the project and used it for religious purposesApr 22 22:27
sebsebsebamarsh04: About?Apr 22 22:27
sebsebsebI guess notApr 22 22:27
_goblin 22 22:27
_goblinDaraIRCApr 22 22:27
_goblinI got it for free from the marketplace.Apr 22 22:28
schestowitz'Marketplace'Apr 22 22:28
*schestowitz blasts in marketing buzz buzzeryApr 22 22:28
_goblinmost of the apps are free.Apr 22 22:28
_goblin(as in beer)Apr 22 22:28
schestowitz_goblin: don't you get in FOSS ones in the Android FleaMarket?Apr 22 22:28
MinceRshall we merge all these software shop names?Apr 22 22:28
schestowitzStore... marketplace... CentralApr 22 22:29
MinceRStoremarketplaceApr 22 22:29
_goblinschestowitz: I think so, however Dara had the best reviews so I didn't look at the rest after that.Apr 22 22:29
schestowitzMSShopApr 22 22:29
schestowitzJobs won't put porn in his StoreApr 22 22:29
schestowitziBrothelApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotStore... marketplace... CentralApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotStoremarketplaceApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotschestowitz: I think so, however Dara had the best reviews so I didn't look at the rest after that.Apr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotMSShopApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotJobs won't put porn in his StoreApr 22 22:29
TechrightsBotiBrothelApr 22 22:29
_goblinI paid £5 for Midnight Bowling 2.....most fun Ive ever had for £5....still playing it.Apr 22 22:29
schestowitzbrb, newsApr 22 22:30
*sebsebseb ended up with a screen slightly smaller than the old current one hrmApr 22 22:30
_goblinOpera is excellent too.....I always ignored it as a browser although I may now give it a run on the desktopApr 22 22:30
sebsebsebalso with a stand that is  a little bit  lower downApr 22 22:30
sebsebsebit seemsApr 22 22:30
sebsebsebresulting in it looking  a little bit more smallerApr 22 22:30
_goblinits certainly better than the default browser.Apr 22 22:30
sebsebseb_goblin: yeah I Apr 22 22:31
sebsebsebwellApr 22 22:31
sebsebsebsince this montior stuff I been going through the last week or two something like thatApr 22 22:31
sebsebsebI was on Ubuntu on the other computerApr 22 22:31
sebsebsebthe other day wanting to watch BBC ClickApr 22 22:31
sebsebseb,but for some reason javascript issue, Firefox and such,  problemsApr 22 22:31
_goblinGo build is out.......Apr 22 22:31
_goblin"Once you try slack you never go back"Apr 22 22:31
sebsebsebYoutube and such  would work.  Anyway I thought bugger this i'll just  WineApr 22 22:32
sebsebsebwell I guess I thought Firefox first, but then was like nah,  I want to do the latest OperaApr 22 22:32
sebsebsebI didn't want to screw around re installing Flash into Ubuntu and that kind of thingApr 22 22:32
_goblinIm a Chromium user...and you shouldn't need to re-install flash if its already there, should you?Apr 22 22:32
sebsebseblater versions of Opera,  intall, but then issue trying to open, but the version  that is the current latest Linux version, works fine in WineApr 22 22:32
sebsebseb_goblin: Epiphany and Galeon and such also had the issueApr 22 22:33
_goblinFine in Wine? ;)Apr 22 22:33
sebsebsebI can't be arsed to mess around with that computer much on  Ubuntu at the momentApr 22 22:33
sebsebsebsinceApr 22 22:33
sebsebsebI plan to upgrade it  from 9.10 to 10.04 on the 1st of MayApr 22 22:33
sebsebsebthe release is 29th, but loads of the fan boys and girls, will be getting it on the first day,  and probably the day after, so 1st May should be goodApr 22 22:34
sebsebsebsince download servers will be really slow to begin withApr 22 22:34
_goblinIm looking forward to trying 10.04....although my main rig will remain slack.Apr 22 22:34
sebsebsebplayed fine in Opera in Wine, but well when I try to do full screen, problem.  I guess maybe an option in Wine so it can do full screen,  but I was like bugger this, i'll just boot up XP on here and play itApr 22 22:34
sebsebsebso that's what I didApr 22 22:34
sebsebseb_goblin: well the rc of 10.04 was released todayApr 22 22:35
sebsebsebabout to download it in factApr 22 22:35
schestowitz 22 22:35
TechrightsBotTitle: [Phoronix] Yet More Signs Of Valve's Steam On Linux .::. Size~: 16.02 KBApr 22 22:35
schestowitzit's coming!Apr 22 22:35
_goblinyeah I have no time......Apr 22 22:35
sebsebseband do a vmApr 22 22:35
_goblinI'll sit down and look at it over the weekend.Apr 22 22:35
sebsebseb_goblin: I am a bit annoyed about this monitor stuff in a way thoughApr 22 22:35
sebsebsebbasically I got problems with the one I am using nowApr 22 22:35
MinceRsebsebseb: maybe it can in desktop modeApr 22 22:36
MinceR(or what it's called)Apr 22 22:36
sebsebsebshowing bits of grey on the screen, when turned off sometimes.Apr 22 22:36
sebsebsebuhmmm   showing bits of what is meant to be shown, flashing at timesApr 22 22:36
sebsebsebuhmmApr 22 22:36
sebsebsebsometimes refusing to go off, and such.Apr 22 22:37
sebsebseb,but then at times working fineApr 22 22:37
sebsebseb_goblin: my parants and little brother were stuck on holiday since the volcanoApr 22 22:37
MinceRif you're using compositing, that can have issues with fullscreen appsApr 22 22:37
sebsebseb,but they came back today,   and the new monitor well I would have had it on Tuesday, but...  so Wednesday yepApr 22 22:37
MinceR(different methods of making it fullscreen, unredirecting or not)Apr 22 22:37
sebsebseb_goblin: I wasn't that sure how to connect stand and such, I suck at hardware.  my Dad helped me set up and that todayApr 22 22:38
sebsebseb,but then this  old screen starts to work properly again as well,  he like secured the connections or something,  it may be all ok nowApr 22 22:38
sebsebsebso far so goodApr 22 22:38
sebsebsebwhat I am annoyed about is that really this old screen ,is better than the new screenApr 22 22:39
sebsebsebsince it seems to be a bit bigger,  even though I thought they would be the same size, but I guess notApr 22 22:39
sebsebsebanyway now  since two  monitors, I am thinking about   bringing the old computer back from the dead,   I think just a graphics card needs to be replaced,  and maybe it can  deal with a bit more RAM, it's currently 128MBApr 22 22:40
sebsebseband it's got a  floppy disc drive, and I got old floppy discs around,  would be fun to put them in, and see what's on them, from years, and years agoApr 22 22:41
sebsebsebanyone following my story? anyone care?Apr 22 22:42
_goblinsebsebseb: I have the same issue, an older monitor has a sharper image than a newer one.Apr 22 22:42
sebsebseb_goblin: What do you mean sharper image?Apr 22 22:42
_goblinsebsebseb: images appear crisper, text easier to read.Apr 22 22:42
sebsebsebwell newer is not always betterApr 22 22:43
_goblinagreedApr 22 22:43
sebsebsebI guess this applys to hardware as well as I just found outApr 22 22:43
_goblinnewer looks nicer when its switched off thoughApr 22 22:43
sebsebsebthe old monitor has this like uhmm square rectangle standApr 22 22:43
_goblinnice casingApr 22 22:43
sebsebsebnice stand for the old oneApr 22 22:43
sebsebsebrather dusty at the momentApr 22 22:43
sebsebsebnew monitor has a stand that has a circular bottom.  and then the like tunnel type thing, and the  monitorApr 22 22:44
sebsebsebguess which one I prefer?Apr 22 22:44
_goblinsebsebseb: If you are thinking of bringing an old computer back from the dead and you want it as an entertainment machine, consider puppy arcade.Apr 22 22:44
sebsebseb_goblin: it died with Ubuntu Edgy Eft on it :)Apr 22 22:44
sebsebsebI remember XP was blue screen of deathing  page fault in non paged areaApr 22 22:44
sebsebsebI ignored it blamed XP for funApr 22 22:45
_goblinsounds painfulApr 22 22:45
sebsebsebsince  Fedora  well not sure if I  had the problem thenApr 22 22:45
sebsebsebanyway Ubuntu though yeah, that worked fine for quite a while, without issueApr 22 22:45
_goblinworst PC for Linux....Apr 22 22:45
_goblinA compacApr 22 22:45
sebsebsebslightest thing goes wrong with hardware, and Windows will complain,  a blue screen of death maybe,  good luck understanding what that means also, unless a Windows geekApr 22 22:45
sebsebsebLinux distros will ignore it,  and things will be good untill a more serious issueApr 22 22:46
sebsebsebfor me that's an advantage, and probably loads of other people as well, but is it really that's the thing?Apr 22 22:46
sebsebseb_goblin: the old computer has a hard disk with Ubuntu on it as I was saying, but also data I would like to get hold of,  after like three years, nothing has been done with it yetApr 22 22:48
sebsebsebthere's also a blank hard disk in there,  properly blank, since I tried program on it, proper hard disk cleaning program for my first time,  just to tryApr 22 22:48
sebsebsebso yeah should be properly blank,  or if not,  a lot of junk data on itApr 22 22:49
sebsebseb_goblin: 40GB hard disksApr 22 22:49
sebsebsebwhich is way more than what is needed for a Linux distroApr 22 22:49
sebsebseb:)Apr 22 22:49
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[davidgerard] NewsTechnica: Sky poll: Clegg's mother is Hitler #leadersdebateApr 22 22:50
TechrightsBotTitle: Sky poll: Cleggs mother is Hitler | NewsTechnica .::. Size~: 35.74 KBApr 22 22:50
sebsebsebmight put XP on the old computer, if it does indeed come back from the dead.  altough I am thinking if I do  any Windows 3D gaming for example,  that really I would want to do that on this computer.Apr 22 22:50
sebsebsebtwo computers, I could have one on Windohs, whilst the other is on a better OS :)Apr 22 22:51
sebsebsebfor exampleApr 22 22:51
schestowitzMicrosoft results are in.  The losses online have increased, typical spin is being used when everyone results ascend from a terrible, post-collapse yearApr 22 22:52
sebsebseb_goblin: I thought my speakers had messed up,  as well earlier, the old speakers I have, since music wasn't playing as loud as it should.  I ended up trying to try on Vista, but right issues trying to boot it up,  so I just gave up with that in the end.  Back to  Mandriva  and  on  KDE instead of Gnome this time,  and the s speakers are doing the music fine in KDE.Apr 22 22:52
-BNtwitter/#boycottnovell-[schestowitz] @davidgerard I've watched that debate, he was quite decentApr 22 22:52
sebsebsebschestowitz: Which TV channel do you watch the news on by the way?Apr 22 22:52
_goblinsebsebseb: You did make sure (if you were using Ubuntu) that the master volume was high enough....Apr 22 22:53
sebsebseb_goblin: I was on Mandrive One 2010 Gnome when I got the sound issue, I did try to get into some sort of sound control or whatever it was, but  some little issue or whatever, so I was like bugger it,  i'll just try VistaApr 22 22:53
sebsebseband then after the Vista thing,  I guess I thought well try KDE instead of Gnome thenApr 22 22:54
_goblinthings must have been bad!Apr 22 22:54
sebsebseb_goblin: That Vista install is a little hrmApr 22 22:54
sebsebseblast few times I been on it, so hardly ever, has been offline :)Apr 22 22:54
sebsebsebyep  ethernet cable outApr 22 22:54
_goblin"its the only way to be sure"Apr 22 22:55
sebsebsebit's got two accounts,  not sure why, I think I  did admin and limited accountApr 22 22:55
sebsebsebalso not sure where the drivers CD is :(Apr 22 22:55
sebsebsebfor I belive the garphics card and such hrmApr 22 22:55
_goblinI think admin or not Vista is limited by natureApr 22 22:55
sebsebseboh and figuring out what driver/s to use for Windows, and where to get it/them from, can be a right annoyance on Windohs, been there done that.Apr 22 22:56
sebsebsebgot the t shirtApr 22 22:56
sebsebseb_goblin: you know that saying/phrase sure you do?Apr 22 22:56
schestowitzsebsebseb: depends whenApr 22 22:57
sebsebsebschestowitz: well you said you were going to see news earlier?Apr 22 22:57
sebsebsebso I was wondering which channelApr 22 22:57
schestowitzSkyApr 22 22:57
sebsebsebschestowitz: uh Sky News?Apr 22 22:57
schestowitz'News'Apr 22 22:57
sebsebsebyou have Sky, you of all people?  :DApr 22 22:57
sebsebsebI mean Sky = Rupert Murdoch so = bad reallyApr 22 22:57
schestowitzMurdoch made it like FauxApr 22 22:57
sebsebsebaltough Sky One is one of the best TV channels in this countreyApr 22 22:58
schestowitzIt was a Sky-hosted debateApr 22 22:58
sebsebsebwhat's Faux?Apr 22 22:58
schestowitzFoxApr 22 22:58
schestowitzFaux newsApr 22 22:58
schestowitzMeaning fake newsApr 22 22:58
sebsebsebohApr 22 22:58
schestowitzLike News TechnicaApr 22 22:58
schestowitzdavid's siteApr 22 22:58
schestowitzNews of the NewsApr 22 22:58
sebsebsebschestowitz: I had a look at a boycott boycottnovell site a little bit last night by the way, since someone gave the linkApr 22 22:59
schestowitzsorry, I interrupted you guysApr 22 22:59
schestowitzsebsebseb: don't feed himApr 22 22:59
sebsebsebschestowitz: nothing to be sorry about, plus he hadn't replied to the last thing I said to himApr 22 22:59
sebsebsebschestowitz: well the site did seem rather idiotic, from what I sawApr 22 22:59
schestowitzOK, I didn't mean to rudely barge inApr 22 23:00
schestowitz_goblin is a very pleasant personApr 22 23:00
schestowitzI'm shocked the Mono militants call him c* and stuffApr 22 23:00
schestowitzBeranger on the other hand...Apr 22 23:00
sebsebsebschestowitz: oh yeah there's an interview or whatever  with  Matt Zimmermand or whatever  he's calledApr 22 23:01
sebsebsebschestowitz: that Canonical guyApr 22 23:01
sebsebsebyou know the one I meanApr 22 23:01
sebsebseband he basically said Mono is bad or something like thatApr 22 23:01
schestowitzMatt is OKApr 22 23:01
schestowitzThere are others in Canonical who I worry aboutApr 22 23:01
schestowitzSpencer for one thingApr 22 23:01
schestowitzhe was hired from MicrosoftApr 22 23:01
sebsebseb_goblin: heh this  monitor was meant to be pretty good etc etcApr 22 23:01
sebsebseb_goblin: doesn't seem so when it's not  plugged in to a computerApr 22 23:02
schestowitzAnd they also hired Mono folks... and from NovellApr 22 23:02
MinceRasay is a problem tooApr 22 23:02
sebsebseb_goblin: maybe it's built in sound is better than this screen's,  I hope so, since  I don't have any proper speakers for the old computerApr 22 23:02
sebsebsebschestowitz: yeah and Yahoo is becoming Microsoft well kind ofApr 22 23:03
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sebsebsebanyway I got an Ubuntu 10.04 RC to try, also apparnatly the default Yahoo/Bing won't happen anymore, so in that case the RC won't have by defaultApr 22 23:03
sebsebsebvm trying :) vm's :)   and I also got PC Linux OS 2010 Gnome downloaded waiting for me to vm try as wellApr 22 23:04
sebsebsebMinceR: asay is a problem?Apr 22 23:05
sebsebsebMinceR: maybe in certain ways, since his love for MacApr 22 23:05
schestowitzMinceR: :( yeahApr 22 23:08
schestowitzA different type thoughApr 22 23:08
schestowitzMac Asay is not technicalApr 22 23:08
MinceRa crApple cultist has no place in a supposed FLOSS companyApr 22 23:08
schestowitzSo his danger is a diplomatic one for the most partApr 22 23:08
MinceRespecially not in managementApr 22 23:08
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MinceRschestowitz: yet we see ubuntu copying osx even more in the release after his entryApr 22 23:09
schestowitzMacult is not healthyApr 22 23:09
schestowitzMinceR: poorlyApr 22 23:09
MinceRyeah, it still has way too much functionalityApr 22 23:09
MinceRand flexibilityApr 22 23:09
MinceRbut they're getting thereApr 22 23:10
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schestowitzPCs are not skin-thinApr 22 23:10
schestowitzTheir proposition should differApr 22 23:10
schestowitzIn spite of brainwashed massesApr 22 23:11
schestowitzThey need to know their audienceApr 22 23:11
schestowitzThey need to know their audienceApr 22 23:11
schestowitzroy@roy:~$ uname -aApr 22 23:11
schestowitzLinux roy 2.6.31-11-generic #38-Ubuntu SMP Fri Oct 2 11:55:55 UTC 2009 i686 GNU/LinuxApr 22 23:11
schestowitzroy@roy:~$ uptimeApr 22 23:11
schestowitz 23:11:25 up 156 days, 19:42,  3 users,  load average: 0.38, 0.27, 0.31Apr 22 23:11
MinceRPC UIs should be able to grow with their userApr 22 23:11
MinceRGNU/Linux tends to be able to do that, macos can'tApr 22 23:11
schestowitzit looks the same as it did in 10.Apr 22 23:12
schestowitzit looks the same as it did in 10.1Apr 22 23:12
schestowitzJust more purpleApr 22 23:12
schestowitzStar dustApr 22 23:12
MinceRand window buttons on the leftApr 22 23:13
MinceRand osx-ish purple wallpaperApr 22 23:13
MinceRand (iirc) they removed the icons from menu items and dialog buttons (though this might have happened earlier)Apr 22 23:14
schestowitzGood video I saw today: 22 23:14
TechrightsBotTitle: YouTube- Your Grand Daddy (for the spaceheads and the curious) .::. Size~: 86.93 KBApr 22 23:14
schestowitzMinceR: earlierApr 22 23:14
schestowitzOne year ago almostApr 22 23:14
MinceR(apparently the self-proclaimed "experts" at crApple can't make up their mind about whether icons help or confuse the illiterate)Apr 22 23:14
schestowitzgnome decisionApr 22 23:14
schestowitzNot ubuntuApr 22 23:14
schestowitz 22 23:15
MinceRgnome is all about copying osx, tooApr 22 23:15
ThistleWebsqurrels can be trained to push the right buttons to get nutsApr 22 23:15
MinceRever since they stopped copying kdeApr 22 23:15
ThistleWebrelying on icons is treating users as much the same, trained squirrelsApr 22 23:16
MinceRthey should go back to copying kde, if they have to copy somebodyApr 22 23:16
MinceRThistleWeb: icons can be found faster than textApr 22 23:16
MinceRof course in the GUI where dialog buttons are arranged to make it slower to find the most often used buttons this is not a criterionApr 22 23:17
ThistleWebthey can be, but when you change the icon theme and the same app is under a new icon, can the user still tell it's the same app? or do they think the app is removed becaue they dont see the same image?Apr 22 23:17
MinceRif the user can't tell it's the same app because menu item icons and/or dialog button icons are differently styled, should they be using a computer?Apr 22 23:17
MinceRshould they be changing iconsets?Apr 22 23:18
MinceRshould the users who happen to have brains be hamstrung by decisions made to deal with such people?Apr 22 23:18
MinceRi think if they can't handle the effects of changing colors/themes/iconsets then they just shouldn't do itApr 22 23:19
ThistleWebuser education is very important, plenty of corps like to profit from a lack of itApr 22 23:19
MinceRperhaps users shouldn't be educated to look for particularly colored groups of pixelsApr 22 23:19
MinceRthey should know concepts, ideas and UI elementsApr 22 23:19
ThistleWebusing a PC does not need to be rocket science, but there are some basics users should be eductated onApr 22 23:20
MinceRthe human visual system can identify a button regardless of what color it is -- i think this could work on GUIs tooApr 22 23:20
schestowitzSteve's just found his next organ donor. 22 23:22
TechrightsBotTitle: FOUND: Steve Jobs's next liver | MICROSPLOT .::. Size~: 29.54 KBApr 22 23:22
schestowitzLEAKED: Steve Jobs's next liver Apr 22 23:22
schestowitz:-pApr 22 23:22
MinceRis the set of potential donors called the Liverpool?Apr 22 23:23
schestowitz[23:17] <MinceR> if the user can't tell it's the same app because menu item icons and/or dialog button icons are differently styled, should they be using a computer?Apr 22 23:23
schestowitzWhat about the illiterate/kids?Apr 22 23:23
MinceRperhaps they shouldn't go around switching iconsets if they can't handle the consequencesApr 22 23:23
schestowitzMinceR: no, liverharvestApr 22 23:23
schestowitzHe makes them cheap in China where his products are madeApr 22 23:24
MinceR(it would certainly impair their abilities where icons are still used)Apr 22 23:24
schestowitzhypePod, MacB0rk, liver...Apr 22 23:24
schestowitzFoxconn makes them cheaplyApr 22 23:24
MinceRalso, they might want systems designed to educate them anywayApr 22 23:24
MinceRsay, SugarApr 22 23:24
schestowitzThe price of extreme capitalismApr 22 23:24
schestowitzYeah, SUgar LabsApr 22 23:25
schestowitzA friend mention it the other dayApr 22 23:25
schestowitzThey still deploy someApr 22 23:25
schestowitzA spoonful of GNUApr 22 23:25
schestowitz 22 23:26
TechrightsBotTitle: Not all IBM Linux can be put in a red hat, SUSE | Open Source | .::. Size~: 81.46 KBApr 22 23:26
*schestowitz can envision Sutor putting on his BillG t-shirtApr 22 23:26
schestowitzBut he does his jobApr 22 23:26
schestowitzBig BlueApr 22 23:26
schestowitzPart of the job is leaving one's brain in a jar when entering the HQApr 22 23:27
MinceRBig Blue Screen of Death?Apr 22 23:27
schestowitzWorseApr 22 23:27
schestowitzBlue Balls of DeathApr 22 23:27
MinceRlolApr 22 23:27
MinceRat least no Beachball of DeathApr 22 23:27
schestowitzMicrosoft = Impotence-readyApr 22 23:28
schestowitz 22 23:28
TechrightsBotTitle: Blue balls - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 27.53 KBApr 22 23:28
schestowitzDid you hear the story about Romanian hospitals and Vista?Apr 22 23:29
MinceRnopeApr 22 23:29
schestowitz 22 23:29
TechrightsBotTitle: White House delivers Drupal a stimulus | Open Source | .::. Size~: 78.85 KBApr 22 23:29
schestowitzObama hacks phpApr 22 23:30
schestowitzHe's good at *eveything* !!Apr 22 23:30
MinceRis hacking php worth being good at? :>Apr 22 23:31
schestowitz 22 23:38
TechrightsBotTitle: Sun ODF Plugin for Microsoft Office 1.2 .::. Size~: 36.29 KBApr 22 23:38
schestowitzblast it..Apr 22 23:38
schestowitzMinceR: depends, but php is very commonplaceApr 22 23:38
schestowitzI was thinking it earlier... 7 years ago when I was doing interviews php was small, very smallApr 22 23:38
schestowitzonline apps were scarceApr 22 23:38
schestowitzSo knowing normal p/ls was enoughApr 22 23:39
schestowitzBut not it's mostly web-facingApr 22 23:39
schestowitzFacebook is something many people useApr 22 23:39
schestowitzAnd it's changing things a lot... now that I would care about that... Google I can trust moreApr 22 23:39
schestowitzGoogle uses Perl and Python too... they also grow fastApr 22 23:40
schestowitzWhite House now uses a Belgian CMSApr 22 23:40
*Chips_B_Malroy (~b80104e8@gateway/web/freenode/x-fbpsahidirqxwbmz) has joined #boycottnovellApr 22 23:40
schestowitzWordPress=TexasApr 22 23:40
schestowitzWith one dev from MancApr 22 23:40
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: Apr 22 23:40
schestowitzI got your linksApr 22 23:40
schestowitzI don't know where to fit such a topicApr 22 23:40
Chips_B_MalroyRoy, thanksApr 22 23:41
schestowitzI prefer to write about financial corruptionApr 22 23:41
schestowitzI like corruption for coverage, I don't know why... since I was a teenager I saw that as a priorityApr 22 23:41
schestowitzI was right about Goldman all along :-)Apr 22 23:41
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: seen Microsoft's results?Apr 22 23:42
Chips_B_Malroywell, you don't need to use them.  I was just pointing out that the foreclosure issue is still a big problemApr 22 23:42
schestowitzLosses widen onlineApr 22 23:42
schestowitzOver $2 billionApr 22 23:42
Chips_B_Malroyyes, MS seems to be riding increases in computer salesApr 22 23:42
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: yes, top priorityApr 22 23:42
schestowitzHomelessnessApr 22 23:42
schestowitzNot on the agendaApr 22 23:42
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: I hope Joe does per-division breakdown like the last timeApr 22 23:43
Chips_B_MalroyThe banks and the gov are suppressing the true picture of the foreclosure marketApr 22 23:43
schestowitzYou brought it here to IRC the last time he did thisApr 22 23:43
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: like they cover up nuclear disastersApr 22 23:43
schestowitzThe ones in Colorado for exampleApr 22 23:44
schestowitzLeaks and improper burial of nukes/wasteApr 22 23:44
Chips_B_MalroySt. Vrain?Apr 22 23:44
schestowitzIt still poisons children who play nearbyApr 22 23:44
Chips_B_Malroyor the Flats?Apr 22 23:44
schestowitzI watched a film about it the other dayApr 22 23:44
schestowitzI can find it........Apr 22 23:44
Chips_B_Malroythere was also the Rocky Mtn ArsenalApr 22 23:45
Chips_B_Malroybut that was more releted to nerve gas and other chemicalsApr 22 23:45
schestowitzI can't find it nowApr 22 23:46
schestowitzBut it's not cancer valley 22 23:47
TechrightsBotTitle: SourceCode Season 2 - Episode 6: New Orleans/Sacrificial Zone : Free Speech TV : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive .::. Size~: 17.73 KBApr 22 23:47
schestowitzOr the one Monsanto poisonedApr 22 23:47
Chips_B_MalroyI think a lot of people are accepting Windows7 as the best that MS is going give them, and afriad that MS will make 8 worse againApr 22 23:47
Chips_B_Malroyso resistance to 7 has faded somewhat compared to Vista with the publicApr 22 23:48
schestowitzNow this... 22 23:48
TechrightsBotTitle: SourceCode Season3 - Episode 2: Eco Dissent/Not Terrorism : Free Speech TV : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive .::. Size~: 18.32 KBApr 22 23:48
MinceRxp sucks less than vista7Apr 22 23:48
schestowitzMaybe this.. 22 23:48
TechrightsBotTitle: SourceCode Season 3 - Episode 3: Enemies of the Environment : Free Speech TV : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive .::. Size~: 18.43 KBApr 22 23:48
MinceRgnApr 22 23:49
Chips_B_MalroyMinceR> agreed about XP, but XP is still bad compared to GNUApr 22 23:49
MinceRgoes without sayingApr 22 23:49
Chips_B_Malroy 22 23:50
TechrightsBotTitle: 42 Percent of 360 Users Reporting Failure  | .::. Size~: 34.08 KBApr 22 23:50
schestowitzkde4.... /me droolsApr 22 23:50
schestowitzChips_B_Malroy: I wrote about it in techrightsApr 22 23:51
Chips_B_MalroyokApr 22 23:51
schestowitz 22 23:51
TechrightsBotTitle: Xbox 360 Still Failing for Half of Microsofts Customers as Company Sails Abroad for Savings | Techrights .::. Size~: 100.26 KBApr 22 23:51
Chips_B_Malroykde4 and my ATI card do not get along yetApr 22 23:51
Chips_B_MalroyBut then, its Novell that is working on the open source ATI radon driver, which laid off one worker and shortened the hours of the other twoApr 22 23:52
MinceRand it's AMD/ATI that isn't working on it at allApr 22 23:53
Chips_B_MalroytrueApr 22 23:53
schestowitz 22 23:54
TechrightsBotTitle: IT Outsourcing and the "Unemployable" US Tech Professional &mdash; .::. Size~: 72.07 KBApr 22 23:54
schestowitzMicrosoft labelled them "Unemployable"Apr 22 23:54
schestowitzA career criminal wanted cheap labourApr 22 23:54
schestowitzLabeled Americans "Stupid"Apr 22 23:54
schestowitzTook over the school systemApr 22 23:54
Chips_B_MalroySo before I invest in a new card, I will wait for my old kde3.5 to become obsolete.  And by that time I may have to buy Nividia, although I have little respect for themApr 22 23:55
schestowitzAnd discouraged studying CS (which he never learned himself as a law student) by pushing to Infosys/HCLApr 22 23:55
schestowitzMEPIS still clings onto 3Apr 22 23:56
Chips_B_MalroyRoy, oddly enough, IBM has done more outsourceing than even MSApr 22 23:56
Chips_B_MalroyMepis has 8.0 (kde3.5) and 8.5 (kde4.0)Apr 22 23:56
Chips_B_MalroyThere are two problems with the drivers for ATI in Mepis 8.5 kde 4Apr 22 23:57
Chips_B_Malroydual monitor support and 16:9 supportApr 22 23:58
Chips_B_Malroythe vesa driver only supports 16:10 and 4:3 Apr 22 23:58
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