Join us now at the IRC channel.
| cubexyz | Linux distributors shouldn't need to sign with Microsoft | Dec 06 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| cubexyz | even on old PDP-11 systems there was a bunch of different operating systems | Dec 06 00:07 |
| cubexyz | DOS-11, DSM-11, RSX-11, Ultrix, Unix even TRIPOS | Dec 06 00:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a motherboard having secure boot does not mean it has to contain a Microsoft KEK. | Dec 06 00:12 |
| cubexyz | I heard that OEMs are fusing SHA256 public keys into the southbridge | Dec 06 00:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is boot guard the firmware protection key. Not the PK of secureboot. | Dec 06 00:16 |
| oiaohm | The PK of secure boot has a built in time expire factor. | Dec 06 00:16 |
| oiaohm | So push the computer clock far enough forwards and the installed PK will fail. | Dec 06 00:17 |
| cubexyz | this is why coreboot works on older Thinkpads and outdated intel motherboards but not new ones | Dec 06 00:20 |
| cubexyz | so that is definitely a problem | Dec 06 00:20 |
| cubexyz | I don't want to mess around with PKs, KEKs and other stuff like that | Dec 06 00:21 |
| oiaohm | To truth PK and KEK make sense with the number of boot loader level infections that have existed over the years. | Dec 06 00:23 |
| cubexyz | no Microsoft bullshit wanted | Dec 06 00:23 |
| cubexyz | I can secure my own BIOS | Dec 06 00:23 |
| oiaohm | PK in most motherboards you are free to swap with you own. | Dec 06 00:23 |
| cubexyz | I have a programmer, and can check every byte of it | Dec 06 00:23 |
| oiaohm | Then with you own PK you are free to choose if you have Microsoft KEK or Ubuntu or Someone elese. | Dec 06 00:24 |
| cubexyz | yes, but what if I want Plan 9 or some other obscure OS? | Dec 06 00:24 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: No PK and the motherboards by default UEFI design will boot anything. | Dec 06 00:24 |
| oiaohm | as long as it a EFI loader of course. | Dec 06 00:25 |
| oiaohm | secureboot current design can be annoying but not that much of a problem. | Dec 06 00:25 |
| oiaohm | Boot guard stuff with keys written into fuses that is another matter. | Dec 06 00:25 |
| cubexyz | I might have to use old hardware in some cases | Dec 06 00:26 |
| cubexyz | I don't think Plan 9 supports USB keyboard, at least I'm not sure | Dec 06 00:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: boot guard worries me more. | Dec 06 00:26 |
| cubexyz | it | Dec 06 00:27 |
| oiaohm | Like everything in secureboot in the form of keys ie the PK and KEK you can replace. So if some attack breaches one of those keys you can remove them from you system. | Dec 06 00:27 |
| cubexyz | it's not a problem stockpiling old stuff, there must be a million P3 motherboards that no one wants | Dec 06 00:27 |
| oiaohm | boot guard written into fuses what happens if the signing key gets in the wild. | Dec 06 00:27 |
| oiaohm | So you might not be able to change the firmware but some hostile person can. what fun. | Dec 06 00:28 |
| cubexyz | we are dependent on OEMs making motherboards that we like | Dec 06 00:28 |
| cubexyz | no, the bad guys can't really brick my old computers | Dec 06 00:29 |
| cubexyz | even if they blanked out the BIOS I am ready :) | Dec 06 00:29 |
| cubexyz | also as you pointed out there is Raspberry PI 2 | Dec 06 00:31 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that does not have secure boot right? | Dec 06 00:31 |
| cubexyz | I think it uses u-boot | Dec 06 00:32 |
| oiaohm | This is why I don't fear UEFI secureboot that much. https://lwn.net/Articles/571031/ People don't know u-boot and other things. | Dec 06 00:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Verified U-Boot [LWN.net] | Dec 06 00:34 | |
| oiaohm | Yes u-boot you can run into a signed boot problem cubexyz | Dec 06 00:34 |
| oiaohm | Worse u-boot does not have design to bipass it like UEFI has if you have boot gaurd like stuff protecting u-boot | Dec 06 00:35 |
| cubexyz | not on Raspberry PI though | Dec 06 00:35 |
| oiaohm | Raspberry PI CPU does support signed firmware protection. | Dec 06 00:36 |
| oiaohm | in the 2 | Dec 06 00:36 |
| oiaohm | Just it not enabled. | Dec 06 00:36 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically a Respbery PI 2 is not that much different to a UEFI motherboard without PK or boot guard enabled even that it has the features. | Dec 06 00:37 |
| cubexyz | no fans and no heat sink | Dec 06 00:40 |
| oiaohm | There are UEFI motherboards without fans or heatsinks. | Dec 06 00:41 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://wiki.linaro.org/ARM/UEFI | Dec 06 00:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.linaro.org | ARM/UEFI - Linaro Wiki | Dec 06 00:42 | |
| oiaohm | Yep UEFI is on arm as well as x86 | Dec 06 00:42 |
| cubexyz | nothing ATX though | Dec 06 00:42 |
| oiaohm | I understand the security requirements for boot guard the firmware. | Dec 06 00:43 |
| oiaohm | What I don't understand is why the signing keys could not be placed in a block of flash with a physical write protect switch. | Dec 06 00:44 |
| oiaohm | This way if you wanted to you could replace the firmware | Dec 06 00:44 |
| cubexyz | I can already do that though | Dec 06 00:44 |
| oiaohm | blow fuse links to record a signing key has other problems as well. | Dec 06 00:45 |
| oiaohm | What if something blows a few more links. | Dec 06 00:45 |
| oiaohm | So this will mean more motherboards in the ruined pile. | Dec 06 00:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I have always backed the idea that all firmware should have a write protect switch because users/makers don't update it all the time. | Dec 06 00:47 |
| cubexyz | I'm pretty sure some motherboards had a jumper for that | Dec 06 00:47 |
| cubexyz | older ones | Dec 06 00:47 |
| oiaohm | a lot had clear cmos settings jumper. | Dec 06 00:48 |
| oiaohm | but not a lock firmware switch. | Dec 06 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Only thing I know with lock firmware switchs is chromebooks. | Dec 06 00:48 |
| oiaohm | The thing to remeber is groups like the NSA are free to use any method the like to attempt to get there hands on signing half of a public key. | Dec 06 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Only way you can be sure you will know about a signing half breach is if you are the one in charge of it. | Dec 06 00:51 |
| cubexyz | no, I'm sure that ECS motherboards had CLR_CMOS and BIOS_WP jumpers | Dec 06 00:51 |
| cubexyz | so there were 2 jumpers | Dec 06 00:51 |
| oiaohm | I have never come in contact with an ECS brand motherboard. | Dec 06 00:52 |
| cubexyz | http://www.ecs.com.tw | Dec 06 00:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ecs.com.tw | NO TITLE | Dec 06 00:52 | |
| cubexyz | anyway, they exist(ed) | Dec 06 00:57 |
| cubexyz | might be a pain finding one | Dec 06 00:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: interesting brand. First one I have seen with physicaly switches for power and reset on the motherboard. | Dec 06 00:58 |
| cubexyz | useful :) | Dec 06 00:58 |
| cubexyz | BIOS is also socketed | Dec 06 01:01 |
| cubexyz | bad guy can't do anything to the BIOS without physical access | Dec 06 01:03 |
| oiaohm | That is if the bios has a write protect switch. | Dec 06 01:05 |
| oiaohm | physical security on computers is still crap. | Dec 06 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Ok physical security for most computer is still crap. | Dec 06 01:06 |
| oiaohm | socketed TPM chips are since there is not a unified standard for them. | Dec 06 01:06 |
| oiaohm | is hell. | Dec 06 01:06 |
| cubexyz | older computers had ROMs | Dec 06 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Exactly | Dec 06 01:07 |
| cubexyz | you had to change the chip to upgrade the BIOS/firmware | Dec 06 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Attackers had to have physical access to mess with the bios in the time of roms. | Dec 06 01:07 |
| oiaohm | Come forwards to flash and attacker could in infect the BIOS with a program. | Dec 06 01:07 |
| oiaohm | All the boot guard stuff is avoiding the KISS idea. If physical switch was added most of the boot guard stuff would be pointless. | Dec 06 01:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: think about it how often do you change bios settings. Maybe 1 a year if lucky. | Dec 06 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Firmware is only really updated 1 or 2 a year. | Dec 06 01:10 |
| cubexyz | on one computer I changed the settings a lot | Dec 06 01:11 |
| oiaohm | But you would not call that normal cubexyz | Dec 06 01:11 |
| cubexyz | one machine was for msdos games and had "sound blaser emulation on/off" | Dec 06 01:11 |
| cubexyz | no, not normal | Dec 06 01:11 |
| oiaohm | For normal PC the firmware only need to be writeable of a max of 3 days a year. | Dec 06 01:11 |
| cubexyz | would BIOS write protect stop user from just changing the settings? | Dec 06 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Depends where the settings are stored. | Dec 06 01:12 |
| oiaohm | Like if BIOS and CMOS settings are stored in the same flash chip it could. | Dec 06 01:13 |
| oiaohm | Of course it would not cost that much more to have a flash chip each for that. | Dec 06 01:13 |
| cubexyz | e.g. my QDI motherboard has BIOS protect in CMOS | Dec 06 01:13 |
| cubexyz | but I can turn it off | Dec 06 01:14 |
| cubexyz | but that's different of course | Dec 06 01:14 |
| oiaohm | You want physical. | Dec 06 01:14 |
| cubexyz | right | Dec 06 01:14 |
| oiaohm | I have software for overwriting CMOS from boot disc. | Dec 06 01:14 |
| cubexyz | I could also remove the BIOS chip and reprogram it | Dec 06 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Once attack is physical you are screwed anyhow. | Dec 06 01:15 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 06 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Why because you can extend the BIOS by what cards have on them that you insert into slots. | Dec 06 01:15 |
| oiaohm | remove and reprogram bios chip is a lot slower than adding a card. | Dec 06 01:16 |
| cubexyz | it is, but I glued thumb tacks on mine :) | Dec 06 01:16 |
| cubexyz | coreboot stuff you know | Dec 06 01:16 |
| cubexyz | zif socket would have been a lot better really | Dec 06 01:17 |
| oiaohm | I have used a forced boot card before. | Dec 06 01:17 |
| cubexyz | MSI MS-7067 also has BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 06 01:18 |
| cubexyz | so they did exist, but were uncommon | Dec 06 01:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a force boot card forces a computer to come up even if it BIOS chip is removed. | Dec 06 01:18 |
| cubexyz | nifty | Dec 06 01:18 |
| oiaohm | In fact CPU and bios can be removed. | Dec 06 01:19 |
| cubexyz | where do you get a card like that? And I assume it's PCI? | Dec 06 01:19 |
| cubexyz | how would the force boot card know how to initialize memory registers? | Dec 06 01:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you just mentioned why they are a pain and expensive. | Dec 06 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Each forced boot card matchs to a motherboard or motherboard series. | Dec 06 01:22 |
| cubexyz | ah I see | Dec 06 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Of course the reason why they can cope with missing cpu is they have a cpu on board. | Dec 06 01:23 |
| oiaohm | So they take control of the system from bus side. | Dec 06 01:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: rapid diagnose for warnarty repairs they exist for. So no point send out a new motherboard if everything else in the system is bust right. | Dec 06 01:24 |
| cubexyz | I know about Post cards, but this sounds like something a lot more elaborate | Dec 06 01:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are 3 levels. | Dec 06 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Post cards that just print out information that the system spits out all the time. | Dec 06 01:29 |
| oiaohm | http://www.uxd.com/phdpci2.shtml Items like this with a light microcontroller that can probe themselves. | Dec 06 01:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uxd.com | P.H.D. PCI 2 - Professional Hardware Diagnostics PCI | Dec 06 01:29 | |
| oiaohm | then the fine level what are forced boot cards that bring the system back to life allowing you todo data recovery simply. | Dec 06 01:30 |
| oiaohm | fine/final | Dec 06 01:30 |
| cubexyz | looks expensive | Dec 06 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Not only looks expensive. | Dec 06 01:32 |
| oiaohm | phd pci2 is about ~800 USD | Dec 06 01:32 |
| oiaohm | And that is cheep compared to a force boot card. | Dec 06 01:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: forced boot cards start at about 1500 and go up normally you rent them as part of warnaty support agreement. | Dec 06 01:34 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: It quite a privilage to get to use a forced boot card. | Dec 06 01:36 |
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| MinceR | https://i.imgur.com/oKS4a0M.jpg | Dec 06 05:32 |
| MinceR | 042358 < oiaohm> I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it. | Dec 06 05:32 |
| MinceR | http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot Every PK has a expire date. | Dec 06 05:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux Journal | Dec 06 05:32 | |
| MinceR | like i said, uefi sucks | Dec 06 05:32 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: the expire date is a key to bypass UEFI if you cannot access some form of UEFI configuration. Once PK is expired it like you have deleted the PK key. | Dec 06 05:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basially UEFI has a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 05:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but something like u-boot verified does not have a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 05:49 |
| MinceR | calling uefi "designed" sounds like an overstatement | Dec 06 05:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The flaw was designed in. First version of UEFI did not have a PK expire option. | Dec 06 05:52 |
| oiaohm | No encryption key should have a unlimited life. That was forced by NIST requirements. | Dec 06 05:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not somethings about UEFI were designed/mandated. | Dec 06 05:54 |
| MinceR | then booting should not require an encryption key | Dec 06 05:55 |
| MinceR | was the ludicrous bloated designed or mandated? | Dec 06 05:55 |
| MinceR | s/ted/t/ | Dec 06 05:55 |
| MinceR | was the extreme reliance on m$ formats designed or mandated? | Dec 06 05:55 |
| MinceR | was making winblows' idiotic practice of keeping the system clock set to local time (including DST) designed or mandated? | Dec 06 05:56 |
| MinceR | s/)/& "standard"/ | Dec 06 05:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST is behind the mandation of signed loading. This is why it appears in u-boot and stack of other solutions as well. | Dec 06 05:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: system clock set to DST goes back to early Unix before MSDos existed. | Dec 06 06:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so if system clock should be DST, Time Offset or GMT goes back before Microsoft even made it first sale. | Dec 06 06:01 |
| MinceR | and was fixed before even PCs existed | Dec 06 06:01 |
| oiaohm | No it was not fixed before PC existed. | Dec 06 06:02 |
| MinceR | uefi is supposed to be "modern", isn't it? | Dec 06 06:02 |
| oiaohm | UEFI in fact does not make any choice on what system time should be. | Dec 06 06:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all Unixs you can choose what ever you wish the system clock is set as. | Dec 06 06:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also http://superuser.com/questions/482860/does-windows-8-support-utc-as-bios-time Windows does have means of locking clock to UTC/GMT/DST | Dec 06 06:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-superuser.com | Does Windows 8 support UTC as BIOS time? - Super User | Dec 06 06:05 | |
| oiaohm | Problem Microsoft makes it a complete pain in the ass to set that is all MinceR | Dec 06 06:05 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap. | Dec 06 07:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/673490353706704896 | Dec 06 08:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Точно. В Apple нет ничего передового. Это, действительно, просто очередная религия. https://t.co/EgtJkAUVQI | Dec 06 08:20 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #apple is lying about Open Source https://t.co/AoMNLyWREM than again, to many it's a religion, they'll believe anything... | Dec 06 08:20 | |
| XRevan86 | Russian? In #techrights? :) | Dec 06 08:24 |
| XFaCE | XRevan86: it's more likely than you think | Dec 06 08:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: Точно. | Dec 06 08:25 |
| XFaCE | I didn't say I speak russian :P | Dec 06 08:25 |
| XFaCE | despite some EasternEuro ancestors :P | Dec 06 08:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: "That's right" :) | Dec 06 08:31 |
| XFaCE | :) | Dec 06 08:33 |
| XRevan86 | "@Zeipt Right. Apple has nothing advanced. It's really just yet another religion." | Dec 06 08:40 |
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| oiaohm | The bad news here apple is not exactly lying about open source. | Dec 06 08:46 |
| oiaohm | Please remember Apple 1 were kit construction with sample code under unrestricted license. | Dec 06 08:46 |
| oiaohm | Now has Apple maintained a consistent Open Souce Policy the answer is no. | Dec 06 08:47 |
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| oiaohm | Basically marketing weasels at work at Apple again using Half truths. Half truth is yes you are telling the truth but you have omitted key facts that change the complete light of the matter. | Dec 06 08:49 |
| A_Friend | Suddenly a lot of comments pro-management are appearing at the | Dec 06 08:50 |
| A_Friend | IPKat. The media strstegy is working. | Dec 06 08:51 |
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| schestowitz | I saw that | Dec 06 09:07 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673502715620794368 | Dec 06 09:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz I used to be that guy in say 04/05. PowerBook and an iPod. Although then they were really good. Standard have dropped. | Dec 06 09:09 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502891232088064 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502957854420992 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673503022748704768 | Dec 06 09:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz this, is pure bullshit. a) microsoft's code in upstream openssh goes through the same reviews as anyone else. | Dec 06 09:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz the money means _nothing_ as far as code review goes | Dec 06 09:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz and, it wasn't anywhere near $1mil. | Dec 06 09:10 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds blobs | Dec 06 09:10 |
| schestowitz | I didn't say code reviews are affected | Dec 06 09:11 |
| schestowitz | red herring | Dec 06 09:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673504868838035456 | Dec 06 09:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz blobs are not accepted in upstream openssh'd codebase. | Dec 06 09:11 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds them | Dec 06 09:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/673505293167255552 | Dec 06 09:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I have to wonder if the are legal/contractual elements at play here, or if it is just all greed... | Dec 06 09:13 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: I have seen no openssh blobs from Microsoft. | Dec 06 09:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/62700d807d0e01339da8060714e07a3a | Dec 06 09:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 06 09:15 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: well it wouldn't be that obvious | Dec 06 09:16 |
| XFaCE | HERE IS THE COMMIT OF PROPRIETARY CRAP THAT MICROSOFT HAS ADDED | Dec 06 09:16 |
| XFaCE | no, more likely it would be code to facilitate proprietary blobs that Microsoft adds later in their bundled openssh | Dec 06 09:16 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH This is the Microsoft openssh code base. | Dec 06 09:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH · GitHub | Dec 06 09:19 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: and then you can run the following processes to compare the binary to the source code http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/02/detecting-source-code-re-use-through-binary-analysis-hybrid-approach | Dec 06 09:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.forensicmag.com | Detecting Source Code Re-Use through a Binary Analysis Hybrid Approach | Dec 06 09:20 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: have you done this yourself? | Dec 06 09:21 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: at this stage I have not seen anything out of place why if there is something out of place I want to here to I can work out how I missed it. | Dec 06 09:21 |
| XFaCE | ok, so you did this comparison program yourself? | Dec 06 09:22 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: I run a light level compare looking at basic flow and I know others who run deeper. Basically I have no reports of anything hidden and nothing I have done myself suggest anything hidden. | Dec 06 09:25 |
| XFaCE | thank you for answering the question | Dec 06 09:25 |
| oiaohm | If there is some report of Microsoft OpenSSL having some hidden extras I want to see it. | Dec 06 09:25 |
| oiaohm | There is a possiblity that someone missed the Microsoft Win32-OpenSSH on github. | Dec 06 09:26 |
| oiaohm | If you compare to upstream OpenSSH and Microsoft OpenSSH there are incompadiblities. | Dec 06 09:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673507534318133249 | Dec 06 09:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I always think of the Open University TM282 mathematical modeling cycle when I see that. @schestowitz https://t.co/nfbhNAj99b | Dec 06 09:27 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> msds.open.ac.uk | MST210 - Mathematical methods, models and modelling - Open University Course | Dec 06 09:27 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html openssh is clean code base for reproducible build. Unfortunately microsoft programs 1 ) don't come with complier information they were cleanly built with 2) Microsoft complier will optimise slightly differently each time it built. | Dec 06 09:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html ) | Dec 06 09:33 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: Yes detecting blobs in Microsoft built stuff is not a walk in park why you want to hear from anyone who does it. | Dec 06 09:33 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: "why you want to hear from anyone who does it." - I obviously do, hence why I'm asking you :P | Dec 06 11:00 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DGrantGibson/status/673533706393391105 | Dec 06 11:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DGrantGibson: Very revealing article on pesticides by top scientist. A must read. #90DayTidy https://t.co/fMXWzq3UaF | Dec 06 11:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: This Scientist Uncovered Problems With Pesticides. Then the Government Started to Make His Life Miserable. https://t.co/M6RdjPjF6p | Dec 06 11:16 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: problem is even for a person like me even if appears clean to me I could have missed something. The lack of reproducible build with MS Compliers make life hard. | Dec 06 11:24 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: isn't this basically the consequence of the compiler paradox? | Dec 06 11:30 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: no its not. Debian project has proven with gcc its possible to produce reproducible builds. | Dec 06 11:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673536885747294209 | Dec 06 11:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @AltalexNews @byoblu @altalex_eu @Serv_Pubblico @reportrai3 @teuthorn @t_montinari @LaGabbiaTw @Montecitorio https://t.co/TtB7BnMzan | Dec 06 11:34 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents More Than 2,000 People,Including Directors, Said to Have Protested in Munich (About HALF of #EPO Staff) https://t.co/LEveBH9EPj | Dec 06 11:34 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: The catch is reproducible builds need very exact information about the complier used. Like exactly what patches are applied. | Dec 06 11:35 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: basically the compiler paradox argument turns not to hold water. | Dec 06 11:37 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: of course a few things the coder in their source code can do to make binary not 100 percent identical each time. But once you know what they are you can build expection profile for it. | Dec 06 11:39 |
| schestowitz | MS adds blobs | Dec 06 12:19 |
| schestowitz | it's stated they won't use the standard ciphers | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | and theirs are secret | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | Also, we know they have back doors, they'd not even deny it | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | probably more like "no comment" | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | I don't want to interact with an SSH node that runs on Windows | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | I won't trust it | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | I wrote a whole article about key hosting | Dec 06 12:20 |
| schestowitz | like some sysadmins with Windows at work (not their choice) putting private keys on Windows | Dec 06 12:21 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/6735534407784038407 | Dec 06 12:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 06 12:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/673553440778403840 | Dec 06 12:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jrobertson: #reality2015 #fakery #surveillance #apps https://t.co/jFekdsIZHv | Dec 06 12:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: A lot of so-called 'apps' these days (usually a byword for malware) harvest everything on a device, broadcast to mother ship for bulk SALE! | Dec 06 12:24 | |
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| schestowitz | >>> Another week has passed. Any word from FSF or, more importantly, from | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> Red Hat? | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > yes, I was going to write about it today, | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > Excellent. | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | It's published now and it convinced me to move on and not persist with it... | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | Dec 06 12:41 | |
| schestowitz | >> > but 2 hours just wasted | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > blocking effective DDOS attack from Baidu, so might not have time... | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/82909 | Dec 06 12:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Baidu Stages De Facto DDOS Attacks (Updated) | Tux Machines | Dec 06 12:41 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > Ok. Sorry to hear that. At least the source is identified. I see when | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > pruning the spam false negatives [1] that the incoming requests are | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > still misidentified as the proxy. If you put one of those modules, rpaf | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > or mod_remoteip, it would be possible for Apache to block the offending | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | > hosts and not waste cycles serving them. | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | The DDOS issue isn't as bad now as it was last week. I also managed to reduce some Drupal related spam, but Drupal is less usable for me now (wasted hours in vain trying to fix it, eventually found a workaround). | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | I don't care much for web stats (waste of time better spent writing articles), so rpaf not a priority for this particular reason... | Dec 06 12:41 |
| schestowitz | PS - was thinking about going HTTPS recently... | Dec 06 12:41 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tzoannop/status/673585987973488640 | Dec 06 14:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tzoannop: Είπαμε. Δημοκρατικότατη η Ευρώπη. https://t.co/sniKuRIrdR | Dec 06 14:47 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents Suppression of Voices Critical of the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/Hgjqs24dPX | Dec 06 14:47 | |
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| sebsebseb | Dec 06 15:23 | |
| schestowitz | hey | Dec 06 15:25 |
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| cubexyz | I think it's very telling that Ron Minnich, a coreboot programmer and Cory Doctorow who is a digital rights activist both have criticized EFI | Dec 06 15:52 |
| cubexyz | "EFI is an attempt to remove the ability of the user to truly control the computer" | Dec 06 15:53 |
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| cubexyz | "Windows 10 will allow OEMs to not offer the ability to disable secure boot on x86 systems" | Dec 06 15:56 |
| cubexyz | interesting phraseology... | Dec 06 15:56 |
| cubexyz | why in the world would the motherboard manufacturers allow Microsoft to call the shots? | Dec 06 15:57 |
| cubexyz | http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20121126#qa | Dec 06 16:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-distrowatch.com | DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD. | Dec 06 16:13 | |
| cubexyz | also remember... you go to the store to buy a motherboard... it may not say anything about secure boot on the box | Dec 06 16:15 |
| cubexyz | https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html | Dec 06 16:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html ) | Dec 06 16:17 | |
| cubexyz | NSA -> backdoors -> firmware binary blobs == no freedom | Dec 06 16:21 |
| cubexyz | http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement | Dec 06 16:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fsf.org | Stand up for your freedom to install free software — Free Software Foundation — working together for free software | Dec 06 16:34 | |
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| MinceR | 133353 < oiaohm> MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap. | Dec 06 17:27 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Services | Dec 06 17:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 17:27 | |
| MinceR | yet bios still doesn't encourage winblows-type braindeadness, as you can see | Dec 06 17:27 |
| cubexyz | BIOS actually predates windows | Dec 06 17:33 |
| cubexyz | BIOS even predates Microsoft | Dec 06 17:33 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, unfortunately except for the very first version of BIOS for the IBM PC (used intel software) most BIOSes were generated with Microsoft Assembler | Dec 06 17:34 |
| cubexyz | UEFI is merely the next level of Microsoft control | Dec 06 17:34 |
| cubexyz | they already had a lot of influence, as you can see from the BIOS source code that is floating around | Dec 06 17:35 |
| cubexyz | we need the BIOS for warm booting and various other things | Dec 06 17:36 |
| cubexyz | setting keyboard speed... and a ton of other things people never think about | Dec 06 17:36 |
| cubexyz | the wikipedia article on BIOS is not very good | Dec 06 17:38 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639118220447744 https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639451499896832 | Dec 06 18:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: When I was writing about patent trolls for magazines there was plenty of material @schestowitz Then I nearly got shot in Texas. | Dec 06 18:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: By a patent troll @schestowitz Whilst I was interviewing him with his permission. Turns out U.S. Gov didn't like him. | Dec 06 18:22 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/VerityPlayer/status/673643538459066368 | Dec 06 18:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@VerityPlayer: Like something out of a (very) black comedy... https://t.co/jk7ePMSumE | Dec 06 18:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @glynmoody #EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/lvuIRXWQie | Dec 06 18:22 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929 | Dec 06 18:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Ticker symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:50 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street Crash of 1929 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:50 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street | Dec 06 18:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Stock_Exchange | Dec 06 18:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | New York Stock Exchange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:51 | |
| schestowitz | looking for images for epo article.. | Dec 06 18:51 |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NY_stock_exchange_traders_floor_LC-U9-10548-6.jpg | Dec 06 18:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NY stock exchange traders floor LC-U9-10548-6.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-125_Crew_Visits_the_Stock_Exchange.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYSE_opening_bell.jpg | Dec 06 18:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:STS-125 Crew Visits the Stock Exchange.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:53 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NYSE opening bell.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 18:53 | |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry to say BIOS has a stack of hidden services to emulate BIOS int calls. So yes BIOS was already infected with the brain deadness. | Dec 06 19:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: technically we don't need bios most of the time. u-boot start on arm hardware there is no BIOS. Seabios and the like is usable inside Xen and other hypervisors running on UEFI or u-boot so legacy OS support does not need to be in core firmware. | Dec 06 19:40 |
| cubexyz | you still need it to get things started | Dec 06 19:41 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/coreboot-serial-output.txt | Dec 06 19:42 |
| cubexyz | coreboot does a ton of stuff | Dec 06 19:42 |
| cubexyz | you definitely need it for proper warm boot | Dec 06 19:42 |
| cubexyz | the fact that we don't have BIOS source code (mostly) is a huge problem | Dec 06 19:43 |
| cubexyz | the keyboard stuff has to be initialized | Dec 06 19:48 |
| cubexyz | all this is largely invisible to the user but it's necessary | Dec 06 19:49 |
| cubexyz | obviously it has to boot the main OS from CD-ROM or hard drive or even USB drive | Dec 06 19:50 |
| cubexyz | I think seabios is necessary for FreeDOS or 16-bit OS | Dec 06 19:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: problem here is form something like a Linux kernel BIOS is more an annoyance as when it starts it reinits almost everything anyhow so its in a known state. | Dec 06 19:52 |
| cubexyz | it's utterly necessary :) | Dec 06 19:53 |
| cubexyz | and people aren't just booting Linux but a whole range of operating systems | Dec 06 19:53 |
| cubexyz | Linux can't run without it | Dec 06 19:55 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://www.seabios.org/Releases read down --Initial support for using SeaBIOS as a UEFI Compatibility Support Module (CSM)-- | Dec 06 19:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.seabios.org | Releases - SeaBIOS | Dec 06 19:55 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: sorry Linux can run without a BIOS image. | Dec 06 19:55 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: it is possible to put Linux kernel straight into x86 firmware. | Dec 06 19:56 |
| cubexyz | take your BIOS chip out and see what happens | Dec 06 19:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: remove BIOS chip insert kernel containing chip configured for same hardware. | Dec 06 19:56 |
| cubexyz | that's just adding a kernel to the BIOS | Dec 06 19:57 |
| oiaohm | No BIOS is a particular thing. | Dec 06 19:57 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Basic Input/Output System is what BIOS stands for. | Dec 06 19:58 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel does not need BIOS to set up keyboard mouse screen.... As Linux kernel already does that stuff. | Dec 06 19:58 |
| oiaohm | All it need is a firmware that inits the hardware for operation. | Dec 06 19:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: coreboot subloads items like seabios to provide BIOS compadiblity for older OSs. Yes it possible to subload on EUFI as well. | Dec 06 20:00 |
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| cubexyz | uh, the BIOS has to boot the OS | Dec 06 20:01 |
| cubexyz | from some device | Dec 06 20:01 |
| oiaohm | No a loader has to bring OS from device. Coreboot and u-boot are technically not BIOS. | Dec 06 20:02 |
| cubexyz | well coreboot replaces the proprietary firmware, what else would you call it? | Dec 06 20:04 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: coreboot is a boot firmware. The project was called LinuxBIOS until someone pointed out that to be a BIOS you had to support 16 bit crap. | Dec 06 20:06 |
| cubexyz | it's not crap oiaohm | Dec 06 20:06 |
| cubexyz | I still use FreeDOS | Dec 06 20:07 |
| cubexyz | it's just real mode, a mode the CPU uses | Dec 06 20:07 |
| oiaohm | Init up 16 bit wrapper interfaces to 32-64 bit hardware ends up using SMM a lot. | Dec 06 20:07 |
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| cubexyz | the real crap is secure boot, not real mode | Dec 06 20:08 |
| oiaohm | O god you don't get it. | Dec 06 20:08 |
| oiaohm | A modern x86 cpu does not start in real mode. Real mode is a fiction created by configuing the memory allocation tables. | Dec 06 20:09 |
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| cubexyz | how modern are we talking about? | Dec 06 20:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: pent 4 | Dec 06 20:09 |
| cubexyz | well, don't you have computers older than that? :) | Dec 06 20:09 |
| cubexyz | I sure do | Dec 06 20:10 |
| oiaohm | I still have a Pent 1 around. | Dec 06 20:10 |
| cubexyz | ok, so P4 or newer you have a point | Dec 06 20:10 |
| oiaohm | Seabios and the like loading under UEFI sets real mode emulation stuff up. | Dec 06 20:10 |
| cubexyz | my point is there are millions of older computers that use real mode | Dec 06 20:10 |
| oiaohm | basically UEFI does not block using real mode designed OS. | Dec 06 20:11 |
| oiaohm | UEFI does not force more moden OSs to have to put up with the emulation for them. | Dec 06 20:11 |
| cubexyz | but you would have to at least turn off secure boot right? | Dec 06 20:11 |
| cubexyz | just pointing out that your choices are diminishing | Dec 06 20:13 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the answer is no. | Dec 06 20:14 |
| oiaohm | secureboot can be on and have system loading seabios. | Dec 06 20:14 |
| MinceR | load FreeDOS, then load your own Linux kernel via LOADLIN | Dec 06 20:15 |
| oiaohm | Catch is seabios has to be signed with a matching KEK. So seabios is the OS loader. | Dec 06 20:15 |
| MinceR | then have someone else load FreeDOS and load random malware via LOADLIN | Dec 06 20:15 |
| MinceR | stir up a hysteria | Dec 06 20:15 |
| MinceR | ban the offending key | Dec 06 20:15 |
| cubexyz | so technically it's possible, but it's a total pain in the ass? | Dec 06 20:15 |
| MinceR | it doesn't help security, but it does screw inexperienced users | Dec 06 20:16 |
| MinceR | and screws warranty, most likely | Dec 06 20:16 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Lot of UEFI boards have shipped with emulation done that way. | Dec 06 20:16 |
| MinceR | it gives m$ more opportunities for FUD, and gives you no advantages | Dec 06 20:16 |
| cubexyz | not to mention there is no source code to look at | Dec 06 20:17 |
| cubexyz | so they could put anything at all in there | Dec 06 20:17 |
| MinceR | let alone modify, build, share | Dec 06 20:17 |
| cubexyz | look at Cedar Trail, it's huge | Dec 06 20:18 |
| cubexyz | Ivy Bridge, Luna Pier, Sandy Bridge... all contain huge amounts of code | Dec 06 20:18 |
| cubexyz | I'm going to sign seabios, well that's ridiculous | Dec 06 20:19 |
| cubexyz | maybe if I could turn off secure boot... otherwise no | Dec 06 20:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: turn off secureboot remove the PK | Dec 06 20:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: or push the clock forward far enough that the PK is expired. | Dec 06 20:21 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, why can't I just buy a motherboard without secure boot? | Dec 06 20:21 |
| MinceR | this | Dec 06 20:21 |
| cubexyz | I don't want it | Dec 06 20:22 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you can by motherboards without PK set. | Dec 06 20:22 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: those are secureboot off. | Dec 06 20:22 |
| cubexyz | ok, great | Dec 06 20:22 |
| MinceR | why can't i buy a mainboard with less fucked up firmware than uefi? | Dec 06 20:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: how much are you willing to spend. | Dec 06 20:22 |
| cubexyz | Raspberry PI I think would work | Dec 06 20:23 |
| cubexyz | or I just go on buying old motherboards | Dec 06 20:23 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: Intel makes customer reference model of motherboards. These are for ODM to load prototype BIOS into. | Dec 06 20:23 |
| oiaohm | and firmwares into. | Dec 06 20:23 |
| MinceR | or buy a few companies that make them, and have them make something sane for you :> | Dec 06 20:23 |
| MinceR | i'm not that rich though | Dec 06 20:23 |
| cubexyz | Raspberry PI, Pitop, Novena, and chromebooks | Dec 06 20:24 |
| oiaohm | Also customer model reference boards sux. | Dec 06 20:24 |
| cubexyz | and some thinkpads: X60, T60 or X200 | Dec 06 20:25 |
| cubexyz | pretty sure Raspberry PI 2 doesn't have secureboot | Dec 06 20:26 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 06 20:26 |
| cubexyz | I mean, it would be pretty stupid if it did being a learning/experimental tool | Dec 06 20:27 |
| cubexyz | the PI does composite video :) | Dec 06 20:32 |
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| cubexyz | changing the OS is as simple as swapping SD card | Dec 06 20:35 |
| oiaohm | Really there are graphic driver init on the Raspberry PI done by closed source and signed blob. | Dec 06 20:35 |
| oiaohm | That closed blob loads the u-boot bit. | Dec 06 20:35 |
| oiaohm | So implementing secureboot on Raspberry PI would be 1 update. | Dec 06 20:36 |
| cubexyz | PI is cheap enough to buy one to try | Dec 06 20:42 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 06 20:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Blue Pill (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 20:42 | |
| oiaohm | PI is still way under powered. | Dec 06 20:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: to get rid of secureboot requires putting something up to NIST and have them agree that your idea is a better solution than secureboot. | Dec 06 20:43 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: to deal with firmware/loader messing under OS. | Dec 06 20:44 |
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| cubexyz | oiaohm, why care about NIST? neither of us even live in the US | Dec 06 20:44 |
| cubexyz | PI is made in Wales from what I understand | Dec 06 20:45 |
| cubexyz | I doubt NIST cares what I think | Dec 06 20:45 |
| cubexyz | PI isn't even x86 | Dec 06 20:47 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I have a lot of old computers, so Blue Pill isn't a problem | Dec 06 20:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: secureboot is appearing in newer systems with virtualisation support. | Dec 06 20:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, remember we talked about BIOS_WP on ECS motherboard? | Dec 06 20:54 |
| oiaohm | http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-147/NIST-SP800-147-April2011.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-147b/draft-sp800-147b_july2012.pdf https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/files/resource_files/1FFEE497-1A4B-B294-D01FA27DFDDDEB06/UsingTPMtoAddressCybersecurity_Webinbar_May2014_Final.pdf | Dec 06 20:54 |
| cubexyz | so if I can find one... | Dec 06 20:54 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: those 3 PDF allow you to understand where nist sees us going. | Dec 06 20:55 |
| cubexyz | ok, thanks I will read them | Dec 06 20:55 |
| oiaohm | Its nist that is pushing verified boot ideas. | Dec 06 20:55 |
| cubexyz | the ODMs or whatever would still have to go along with it | Dec 06 20:56 |
| cubexyz | the jumper idea seemed a lot simpler | Dec 06 20:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if ODM want to sell to USA governement or USA government contractors or mil countries aligned with the USA who agree to the same standards have to go along with it. | Dec 06 20:58 |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-171-175.lns20.adl6.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 06 20:59 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so basically large block of market share to sell to is gone if you don't conform to nist standards. | Dec 06 20:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/673679090491244545 | Dec 06 20:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz this is what happens when a Microsoft mole destroys a primary industry https://t.co/kpFX9PpqG7 | Dec 06 20:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zerohedge.com | It Begins: Desperate Finland Set To Unleash Helicopter Money Drop To All Citizens | Zero Hedge | Dec 06 20:59 | |
| MinceR | 024251 < oiaohm> cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 06 21:02 |
| MinceR | still fails | Dec 06 21:02 |
| MinceR | the attacker could replace parts or whole of the system to boot the existing system image on a hypervisor | Dec 06 21:02 |
| MinceR | (parts or whole of the hardware) | Dec 06 21:02 |
| cubexyz | if you want a secure computer, just have one computer with NO wifi and NO internet | Dec 06 21:03 |
| MinceR | just another lame excuse to take freedom away from the user | Dec 06 21:03 |
| cubexyz | and 6 foot lead walls :) | Dec 06 21:03 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also prevent physical access | Dec 06 21:03 |
| MinceR | right | Dec 06 21:03 |
| cubexyz | and I do have a computer like that... Amiga 500 | Dec 06 21:04 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the presume is attacking does not have physical access. | Dec 06 21:04 |
| MinceR | then restricted boot is unnecessary | Dec 06 21:05 |
| oiaohm | remote malware was able to install items like bluepill. | Dec 06 21:05 |
| MinceR | then OS access controls were lacking | Dec 06 21:06 |
| MinceR | in fact, simply a read-only boot device would have prevented the issue | Dec 06 21:06 |
| cubexyz | Bluepill needs AMD-V though | Dec 06 21:06 |
| cubexyz | so older stuff is safe | Dec 06 21:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I said bluepill like. | Dec 06 21:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other older hidden malwares. | Dec 06 21:07 |
| cubexyz | maybe... the NSA have some smart people, but most attacks I see are dumb | Dec 06 21:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://ai222.narod.ru/discoloured.html anything based on this tech can do like bluepill attacks on i386 or newer. | Dec 06 21:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ai222.narod.ru | Discoloured Ring 0 Debugger | Dec 06 21:09 | |
| MinceR | they're also morally bankrupt | Dec 06 21:09 |
| cubexyz | I see Windows XP :) | Dec 06 21:10 |
| cubexyz | but worth a look | Dec 06 21:10 |
| cubexyz | a BIOS attack would be interesting | Dec 06 21:12 |
| cubexyz | just how do they attack the BIOS remotely? | Dec 06 21:12 |
| oiaohm | Its called doing too much crap. | Dec 06 21:12 |
| oiaohm | Some bios maker thought it was a good idea to add a check on internet for updates. | Dec 06 21:13 |
| MinceR | they could have added a hw switch to disable update via sw | Dec 06 21:13 |
| MinceR | far more secure than uefi without physical access | Dec 06 21:14 |
| MinceR | and uefi with physical access is worthless | Dec 06 21:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I agree with the hardware switch idea but I don't know how to get Nist to go along. | Dec 06 21:14 |
| MinceR | but i guess such things are just not "modern" enough | Dec 06 21:14 |
| cubexyz | DASH and Vpro no doubt | Dec 06 21:14 |
| cubexyz | that does go back to what I said about forced upgrades | Dec 06 21:14 |
| MinceR | well, make separate broken crap for the NIST if they want it so much and can afford to pay for it | Dec 06 21:14 |
| MinceR | no need to fuck up IT for everybody for their sake | Dec 06 21:15 |
| oiaohm | No NIST does not allow custom supply hardware in most cases. | Dec 06 21:15 |
| oiaohm | Due to the fact that custom suppied hardware could be targeted. | Dec 06 21:15 |
| cubexyz | so what do they use? | Dec 06 21:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically ODM have to make a choice. | Dec 06 21:16 |
| MinceR | then they can use pen and paper | Dec 06 21:16 |
| MinceR | or better yet, rock and chisel | Dec 06 21:16 |
| cubexyz | I heard the Russians were using typewriters :) | Dec 06 21:16 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Nist standard has you using parts that you can buy through general channel that conform. | Dec 06 21:16 |
| MinceR | i still don't get it why the industry has to be killed off for the sake of a single fascistic organization | Dec 06 21:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST rules control about 20 percent of the market. | Dec 06 21:16 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, durable but inconvenient! :) | Dec 06 21:17 |
| MinceR | (and the nsa should be defunded as well) | Dec 06 21:17 |
| MinceR | i guess the problem is solving itself | Dec 06 21:17 |
| MinceR | once humanity exterminates itself, NIST and NSA members will also be all dead | Dec 06 21:17 |
| cubexyz | do the russians make motherboards? | Dec 06 21:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: last time i checked 20% was still a minority. | Dec 06 21:17 |
| cubexyz | they clone a bunch of stuff in the PDP-11 era | Dec 06 21:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: depends where. | Dec 06 21:18 |
| MinceR | has NIST or NSA revolutionarized mathematics too? | Dec 06 21:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: globally 20% of the market. | Dec 06 21:18 |
| MinceR | still a minority. | Dec 06 21:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but particular areas on earth its 100 percent. | Dec 06 21:18 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter, still a minority | Dec 06 21:18 |
| MinceR | 100-20=80, 80 > 20 | Dec 06 21:18 |
| MinceR | even more obviously true than uefi being broken crap. | Dec 06 21:19 |
| oiaohm | Now the next issue is what ever NIST standard normally accept other bodies like Chinas implement something equal. | Dec 06 21:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note MinceR NIST does not demard UEFI they just demard a verfied and secured boot. | Dec 06 21:20 |
| MinceR | also note that hw switches are a lot less complex than uefi | Dec 06 21:20 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't care what they want, if they demand the general purpose computer to be killed, they can go fuck themselves. | Dec 06 21:20 |
| oiaohm | good thing NIST wants general purpose computer to remain. | Dec 06 21:20 |
| MinceR | doesn't look like it | Dec 06 21:21 |
| oiaohm | Just secure general purpose computer that they are sure what software is running on it. | Dec 06 21:21 |
| MinceR | their "secure general purpose computer" is not secure and not general purpose | Dec 06 21:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST wants Linux and other OS to work. | Dec 06 21:21 |
| MinceR | maybe they'll find a way to also make it not a computer | Dec 06 21:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST standard is why PK is replaceable. | Dec 06 21:21 |
| MinceR | again, they could just go play with rocks. | Dec 06 21:21 |
| MinceR | they're doing an atrocious job at making other OS work | Dec 06 21:22 |
| MinceR | as in, they're doing an exact opposite | Dec 06 21:22 |
| oiaohm | The first idea of UEFI is the PK would 100 percent own to the ODM. | Dec 06 21:22 |
| MinceR | if they're so incompetent, perhaps they should be defunded and shut down. | Dec 06 21:22 |
| MinceR | here's the "big government" the republicans allegedly want to get rid of | Dec 06 21:22 |
| oiaohm | Without NIST we would not have the means to change the PK. | Dec 06 21:22 |
| MinceR | without UEFI we would not have the _need_ to change the PK | Dec 06 21:23 |
| oiaohm | NIST first design secureboot signing for old school bios. | Dec 06 21:23 |
| MinceR | s/an ex/the ex/ | Dec 06 21:23 |
| oiaohm | So yes a old school bios can have a PK. | Dec 06 21:23 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter what incompetent people design for | Dec 06 21:23 |
| MinceR | if they're incapable of coming up with a good design, the designs they come up with will suck. | Dec 06 21:23 |
| MinceR | and forcing such designs on the industry will kill the industry | Dec 06 21:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have not said once that the designs don't suck. | Dec 06 21:24 |
| MinceR | and once they kill the IT industry, it will take the rest of industry, tech, science and human society down with it. | Dec 06 21:24 |
| oiaohm | But like it or not we there are mandoary requirements that will have to be meet. | Dec 06 21:24 |
| MinceR | mandatory requirements that kill the general purpose computer, got it | Dec 06 21:25 |
| MinceR | it's exactly what i am against | Dec 06 21:25 |
| oiaohm | PK only in the hands of ODM would have killed the general purpose computer absolutely. | Dec 06 21:25 |
| MinceR | "only in the hands of ODM" really means "in the hands of microsoft" | Dec 06 21:26 |
| oiaohm | No it does not. | Dec 06 21:26 |
| MinceR | since they have leverage over all the ODMs, except for the ones manufacturing for crApple, which are in the same shitty situation | Dec 06 21:26 |
| MinceR | and remember, they call this a "free market" | Dec 06 21:26 |
| oiaohm | There are arm items running custom OS using PK solutions. | Dec 06 21:26 |
| cubexyz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Your_Own_Z80_Computer | Dec 06 21:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Build Your Own Z80 Computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 21:26 | |
| MinceR | yeah, as long as emperor nutella allows them to | Dec 06 21:27 |
| MinceR | sitting on the kill switch | Dec 06 21:27 |
| MinceR | or probably more likely gates | Dec 06 21:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist is also why keyless is possible. | Dec 06 21:27 |
| cubexyz | there's no kill switch :) | Dec 06 21:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically NIST has blocked 100 percent sure killing of general computing. | Dec 06 21:28 |
| MinceR | yay, slow and drawn-out death! | Dec 06 21:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think about it how can you proccess large volume of spy data without general computer. | Dec 06 21:29 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they are the ones who should think about that | Dec 06 21:29 |
| MinceR | in general, they should start thinking | Dec 06 21:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly. | Dec 06 21:29 |
| MinceR | as they haven't done much of it so far | Dec 06 21:29 |
| cubexyz | so the NSA will get general purpose computers and we'll get consumertron 2000s | Dec 06 21:30 |
| oiaohm | Problem is they are attempting to walk a line between secure and general computers | Dec 06 21:30 |
| MinceR | which would enable them to rule the world | Dec 06 21:30 |
| oiaohm | Like NIST made the push to move the TPM off motherboard to a socketed item. | Dec 06 21:30 |
| MinceR | no, they don't seem to have any idea of what "secure" means | Dec 06 21:31 |
| MinceR | apparently they've learned "security" from microsoft | Dec 06 21:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is wrong. | Dec 06 21:31 |
| MinceR | where it means DRM and backdoors with government and m$ access | Dec 06 21:31 |
| oiaohm | NIST normally publishes before Microsoft. | Dec 06 21:31 |
| MinceR | and lack of user/owner control | Dec 06 21:31 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft follows NIST | Dec 06 21:31 |
| oiaohm | In most cases. | Dec 06 21:31 |
| MinceR | i don't really care what the figures in the shell game are called | Dec 06 21:32 |
| oiaohm | Like secureboot was written before UEFI had it first line of code written. | Dec 06 21:32 |
| oiaohm | secureboot by nist | Dec 06 21:32 |
| MinceR | the point is, either they will survive, or we will live free | Dec 06 21:32 |
| MinceR | there's no other way | Dec 06 21:32 |
| MinceR | or everybody dies, which is even more likely | Dec 06 21:32 |
| oiaohm | To be correct lack of user/owner control NIST does not agree with MinceR | Dec 06 21:33 |
| oiaohm | Ok NIST does not have a issue with it being a total pain in ass to operate. | Dec 06 21:33 |
| MinceR | then they should get their uefi | Dec 06 21:33 |
| MinceR | and the rest of us should get sane, reliable, secure systems instead | Dec 06 21:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: secure is the problem. | Dec 06 21:35 |
| oiaohm | How to achive secure without being a pain in ass. | Dec 06 21:35 |
| MinceR | and once they get tired of using the broken crap they plotted to force on everybody, they can give the latter a try | Dec 06 21:35 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, they're trying to achieve the illusion of a kind of security they can not have | Dec 06 21:36 |
| MinceR | and they're willing to give everything up for that illusion | Dec 06 21:36 |
| MinceR | including actual, existing security | Dec 06 21:36 |
| oiaohm | All security is part illusion. | Dec 06 21:37 |
| MinceR | how are illusions supposed to keep you safe? | Dec 06 21:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its like a locked door. Its only an illusion really that a person cannot get past it. | Dec 06 21:38 |
| oiaohm | Most safety depened on the illusion of safety that the illusion is strong enough that most will not attempt to attack it. | Dec 06 21:39 |
| MinceR | or you could put a guard next to that locked door | Dec 06 21:39 |
| oiaohm | Even a guard is still a form of illusion. If some is determed enough a guard or guards normally is not a blockage. | Dec 06 21:40 |
| MinceR | depends on the ratio of power between guards and attacker | Dec 06 21:41 |
| MinceR | and a locked door can be strengthened as well | Dec 06 21:41 |
| MinceR | but if you're dreaming to stay secure while assuming that the attacker has already passed the door, that's pointless | Dec 06 21:42 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No matter what you do attacker can always be stronger right. | Dec 06 21:42 |
| oiaohm | Or sneaker. | Dec 06 21:42 |
| MinceR | restricted does not help with that one bit | Dec 06 21:42 |
| MinceR | s/ted/ted boot/ | Dec 06 21:42 |
| MinceR | it merely screws things up for user/owners | Dec 06 21:42 |
| oiaohm | It does help a little. | Dec 06 21:42 |
| oiaohm | As it makes replacement more detectable. | Dec 06 21:42 |
| oiaohm | So providing extra complexity to attackers to get past. | Dec 06 21:43 |
| MinceR | and harms a lot | Dec 06 21:43 |
| MinceR | makes it hard for users to use a secure OS | Dec 06 21:43 |
| MinceR | bricks computers | Dec 06 21:43 |
| MinceR | the winblows and OSuX they're trying everything to force on us are full of holes | Dec 06 21:44 |
| oiaohm | To be correct UEFI design that NIST agrees with does not brick computers. | Dec 06 21:44 |
| MinceR | and will stay full of holes even if you place their illusion beside them | Dec 06 21:44 |
| oiaohm | the UEFI some ODM have made does. | Dec 06 21:44 |
| MinceR | in the end, users are screwed _and_ have less security | Dec 06 21:44 |
| MinceR | good job, NIST! | Dec 06 21:44 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly less security. | Dec 06 21:45 |
| oiaohm | Not doing any validation on boot was 100 percent inscure. | Dec 06 21:45 |
| oiaohm | So security has improved a little. | Dec 06 21:45 |
| MinceR | doing any validation on boot is still 100 percent insecure | Dec 06 21:45 |
| oiaohm | Pain in ass factor increased a lot. | Dec 06 21:45 |
| MinceR | it only helps companies who conspire to break security | Dec 06 21:45 |
| MinceR | m$, crApple, intel, ratcrap | Dec 06 21:45 |
| MinceR | (though ratcrap will get screwed by it anyway) | Dec 06 21:46 |
| oiaohm | crApple tittle when it comes to UEFI is deserved. | Dec 06 21:46 |
| MinceR | (they're just too moronic to see it) | Dec 06 21:46 |
| oiaohm | Apple has made more broken UEFI implemtnations than any other vendor. | Dec 06 21:46 |
| MinceR | yay for them | Dec 06 21:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/apple_efi.html Apple used ELF instead of PE as well just customed to hell version of ELF on top. | Dec 06 21:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-refit.sourceforge.net | rEFIt - History of Apple and EFI | Dec 06 21:48 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE being a microsoft format sound bad. But at least it not Apple creating a completley new form of ELF for their UEFI. | Dec 06 21:49 |
| MinceR | yeah, m$ and crApple are both very good at fucking things up | Dec 06 21:50 |
| oiaohm | PE selection in UEFI was sane ish take existing linkers and just use those no custom modification crap. | Dec 06 21:51 |
| MinceR | not really | Dec 06 21:51 |
| MinceR | it's validating m$'s position and buying into their broken shit | Dec 06 21:51 |
| MinceR | instead of industry standards like EFI | Dec 06 21:51 |
| oiaohm | EFI used PE | Dec 06 21:51 |
| MinceR | oops | Dec 06 21:52 |
| MinceR | ELF | Dec 06 21:52 |
| MinceR | (which was agreed upon by unix vendors, afaik) | Dec 06 21:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF not quite as good as it first seams. | Dec 06 21:52 |
| MinceR | (not that they can only support one format, especially with the code size they've allowed for themselves) | Dec 06 21:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF has a lot more arch type description crap. | Dec 06 21:52 |
| MinceR | yeah, poor little winblows can't handle it | Dec 06 21:52 |
| MinceR | and everybody must go out of their way to support poor little winblows | Dec 06 21:53 |
| oiaohm | No not poor windows. | Dec 06 21:53 |
| MinceR | since they're in such a bad position | Dec 06 21:53 |
| oiaohm | Poor EFI with all the ELF arch stuff could become a pain in ass. | Dec 06 21:53 |
| MinceR | EFI _is_ a pain in the ass | Dec 06 21:53 |
| cubexyz | ELF appeared in SysV SVR4 | Dec 06 21:53 |
| MinceR | U or not U | Dec 06 21:53 |
| MinceR | it's also a gigantic pile of bloat | Dec 06 21:53 |
| MinceR | for the simple task of loading and executing a boot loader | Dec 06 21:54 |
| cubexyz | ok, well there's always PDP-11 a.out :) | Dec 06 21:54 |
| MinceR | i know big piles of crap can look impressive, but they also have the potential for lots of bugs | Dec 06 21:54 |
| oiaohm | Remember PE is extend COFF that predates ELF. | Dec 06 21:54 |
| MinceR | and in that place, bugs will brick your "computer" | Dec 06 21:54 |
| MinceR | then they could use unextended COFF | Dec 06 21:54 |
| MinceR | another standard | Dec 06 21:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| oiaohm | These days. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | they only support m$ formats and expect people to think they're impartial? that's absurd. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they could develop them. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | they could write tons of code which they wanted to do anyway | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | except that would not bloat the firmware | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | it could exist nicely in userspace. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| MinceR | on top of a real OS. | Dec 06 21:55 |
| cubexyz | lots of hobbyists still use old Unix | Dec 06 21:56 |
| MinceR | hobbyists are ignored by the brainless suits who call the shots | Dec 06 21:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: even in old unix there are coff veration. | Dec 06 21:56 |
| MinceR | they take the hobbyists' code and then use it against the hobbyists | Dec 06 21:56 |
| MinceR | oh, and PE is without variations? | Dec 06 21:56 |
| MinceR | so the various stubs are just in my imagination? | Dec 06 21:57 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, recompile seems an easy solution | Dec 06 21:57 |
| MinceR | the one that prints it won't run in m$-dos, the one that loads it with .net (for no good reason) | Dec 06 21:57 |
| MinceR | the one they put on font files (which apparently need to be executable for some reason) | Dec 06 21:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 06 21:58 |
| cubexyz | I can run v6 on PDP-11 or Interdata, probably others too | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | ooh, "standard" | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | from m$ | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | will you also advocate OOXML too? | Dec 06 21:58 |
| cubexyz | so C language, recompile | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | it's a m$ "standard" | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | never mind that m$'s own implementations ignore their alleged standards | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | or that if you dropped its printout on someone, it can very well kill them | Dec 06 21:58 |
| MinceR | 035800 < oiaohm> MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 06 21:59 |
| MinceR | so those are not variations either? | Dec 06 21:59 |
| MinceR | i have an idea | Dec 06 21:59 |
| MinceR | put a PE stub in front of ELF and call it "standard" | Dec 06 21:59 |
| cubexyz | v5 -> PDP-11, v6 -> interdata 7/32 & PDP-11, v8 -> vax780, etc | Dec 06 21:59 |
| MinceR | and once you have code supporting that, remove the need for the stub | Dec 06 21:59 |
| MinceR | magic! | Dec 06 22:00 |
| cubexyz | pick your era | Dec 06 22:00 |
| MinceR | also, i'm sure EFI will handle _all_ variations of PE | Dec 06 22:00 |
| MinceR | there must be support for that in the mountains of bullshit that make up TianoCore | Dec 06 22:00 |
| MinceR | hell, they could just copy-paste winblows into TianoCore and end the whole charade | Dec 06 22:00 |
| cubexyz | my advice is to learn history... computer history | Dec 06 22:01 |
| MinceR | soon you'll be able to learn _all_ of computer history, because they will end computers | Dec 06 22:01 |
| MinceR | i wonder whose software will the parasitic luddites at NIST use when they take the computers away from the people whose people they keep ripping off | Dec 06 22:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to be correct EFI does not take all veriation of PE. Like .net stuff is out. EFI takes native executable forms of PE. | Dec 06 22:02 |
| MinceR | 035507 < oiaohm> MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 06 22:05 |
| MinceR | gcc? | Dec 06 22:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gcc supports 400 COFF formats. | Dec 06 22:06 |
| MinceR | should be more than enough for the idiots at NIST, then | Dec 06 22:06 |
| MinceR | except of course they want to use visual studio because they're idiots | Dec 06 22:06 |
| oiaohm | PE/COFF is formally a coff format. | Dec 06 22:06 |
| MinceR | i'm sure there are non-m$ formats in there | Dec 06 22:07 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are non MS formats in COFF but the problem is how much of a nightmare it comes. Like Linux coff a.out is differnet to solaris..... | Dec 06 22:07 |
| MinceR | i thought a.out was not COFF | Dec 06 22:08 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.out | Dec 06 22:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | a.out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 22:08 | |
| oiaohm | Linux early on used COFF format. | Dec 06 22:08 |
| cubexyz | Linux used a.out until kernel 1.2 | Dec 06 22:09 |
| cubexyz | I think up to v7 a.out was used | Dec 06 22:10 |
| cubexyz | Unix v7 that is | Dec 06 22:10 |
| cubexyz | so probably by v8 then it was COFF | Dec 06 22:11 |
| cubexyz | you have to go pretty far back to go back to a.out | Dec 06 22:12 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COFF as you can see here the COFF standard is super vague. | Dec 06 22:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | COFF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 22:12 | |
| oiaohm | Numbers of sections is not define. | Dec 06 22:12 |
| oiaohm | Lot of layout bits are not defined in COFF. | Dec 06 22:13 |
| oiaohm | Lets say COFF is wild wild west of binary format. | Dec 06 22:13 |
| MinceR | what are microsoft "standard"s, then? | Dec 06 22:13 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, what about Amiga? | Dec 06 22:13 |
| MinceR | (remember, their own implementations tend to violate the spec) | Dec 06 22:13 |
| cubexyz | it was called Hunk I think | Dec 06 22:14 |
| cubexyz | so we never had executable interoperability | Dec 06 22:14 |
| cubexyz | just source code porting... | Dec 06 22:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is the funny thing about PE. http://www.skyfree.org/linux/references/coff.pdf This is 1999 from Microsoft for PE but it exactly correct for all binary PE format back to the start to all the way up to current day. | Dec 06 22:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even the extend for .net was done inside the PE spec. | Dec 06 22:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Fairlly much the PE format is the only time Microsoft has written a spec and stuck to it. | Dec 06 22:15 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure RT-11 executeable format would be different again | Dec 06 22:15 |
| MinceR | i have my doubts | Dec 06 22:16 |
| cubexyz | zaurus executable won't work on P3, etc | Dec 06 22:16 |
| oiaohm | Wine project loads all kinds of PE programs from accross the complete time frame. | Dec 06 22:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you might have you doubts but this is something that is just been tested over and over again. | Dec 06 22:17 |
| MinceR | wine project took a lot of work to support the craziness in winblows | Dec 06 22:17 |
| MinceR | and afaik it's still far from perfect | Dec 06 22:17 |
| oiaohm | wine project has to follow down a lot of undocument apis true. | Dec 06 22:17 |
| oiaohm | but its never had a issue loading PE itself. | Dec 06 22:17 |
| oiaohm | PE format is nice and stable the reset of the Windows ABI will make you want to pull you hair out. | Dec 06 22:18 |
| oiaohm | reset/rest | Dec 06 22:18 |
| oiaohm | If you were after something COFF unforntatly PE/COFF is about your best choice. | Dec 06 22:18 |
| MinceR | an allegedly independent system that is allegedly supposed to boot other OS-es living entirely within microsoftland and not even trying to disguise that fact much is what makes me pull my hair out | Dec 06 22:18 |
| MinceR | along with the fact that it's a bloated, broken mess and i don't get much of a choice whether i get it if i buy a computer | Dec 06 22:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note BEOS and other OS have used PE/COFF as well. | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | where's BeOS now? | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | what happened to them? | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | which company did they preach "peaceful coexistence" with? | Dec 06 22:19 |
| oiaohm | BeOS is cloned in Open source. | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | why do people _never_ _ever_ learn from their own past mistakes? | Dec 06 22:19 |
| cubexyz | there's HaikuOS | Dec 06 22:19 |
| MinceR | Haiku is not BeOS | Dec 06 22:20 |
| cubexyz | it's not bad actually | Dec 06 22:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Haiku contains some of the developers from BeOS. | Dec 06 22:20 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 06 22:20 |
| oiaohm | OS projects take a long time to die. | Dec 06 22:20 |
| MinceR | i wonder what they'll say when restricted boot locks out Haiku | Dec 06 22:20 |
| cubexyz | "here we go again" ? | Dec 06 22:21 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 06 22:21 |
| MinceR | humanity needs to develop a strong AI, so that there will be an intelligence that can learn and improve | Dec 06 22:22 |
| MinceR | because humans sure as hell can't | Dec 06 22:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI%202_5.pdf If you read page 67 pdf pages or 18 by document page number you will notice PE used by EFI is not without being modified. | Dec 06 22:26 |
| MinceR | so they didn't even use the "standard" they picked | Dec 06 22:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it coded named PE+ yes you are meant to strip the dos header off. | Dec 06 22:26 |
| MinceR | which compiler will generate their custom "PE"? | Dec 06 22:26 |
| MinceR | the more i see of uefi the more it looks like a carnival of total failure | Dec 06 22:27 |
| oiaohm | Turns out gcc,llvm and msvc MinceR | Dec 06 22:27 |
| MinceR | it's a monument that demonstrates the opposite of engineering | Dec 06 22:27 |
| oiaohm | The modifications they did were allowed under PE define MinceR | Dec 06 22:27 |
| MinceR | the culmination of the crApple/micro$oft dream | Dec 06 22:27 |
| oiaohm | Of course PE+ requires all the existing compliers at the time to use some extra header files. | Dec 06 22:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE was simple to modifiy would having to reinvent the wheel. | Dec 06 22:29 |
| MinceR | the usual game | Dec 06 22:29 |
| oiaohm | would/without. | Dec 06 22:29 |
| oiaohm | They did look at ELF | Dec 06 22:29 |
| MinceR | and said "nah, Not Invented Here" | Dec 06 22:29 |
| MinceR | or "our lord bill gates would disapprove" | Dec 06 22:29 |
| oiaohm | No early prototype EFI tried both. | Dec 06 22:29 |
| MinceR | and maybe made up some bullshit excuse, which is made ludicrous by their later decisions, as usual | Dec 06 22:30 |
| oiaohm | Yes they ran into binary build issues with ELF. | Dec 06 22:30 |
| oiaohm | Not from Microsoft. | Dec 06 22:30 |
| oiaohm | From solaris and OS X | Dec 06 22:30 |
| MinceR | maybe they should have tried hiring some software engineers | Dec 06 22:30 |
| MinceR | ratcrap should have tried that too | Dec 06 22:30 |
| MinceR | then again, their goal was not to build stuff that works | Dec 06 22:31 |
| MinceR | but to break stuff that used to work | Dec 06 22:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: have you ever used a bios with verfifed boot over the time. | Dec 06 22:31 |
| MinceR | i don't think i have | Dec 06 22:32 |
| oiaohm | Also the existance of coreboot shows thing were not working right. | Dec 06 22:32 |
| oiaohm | bios mapping usb keyboards to PS2 interfaces and other horibles in background would cause random distruptions. | Dec 06 22:32 |
| MinceR | my newest x86 PC still supports "Legacy Boot" | Dec 06 22:33 |
| MinceR | sure, the mountain of bloat is still there, but at least it tries to pretend it's a computer | Dec 06 22:33 |
| MinceR | but that will eventually go away | Dec 06 22:33 |
| oiaohm | EFI start off as an attempt to remove all the emulation stuff between the OS and the hardware in the SMM | Dec 06 22:33 |
| MinceR | which they did not do | Dec 06 22:33 |
| MinceR | SMM is still supported | Dec 06 22:33 |
| oiaohm | SMM usage is way lower in a UEFI boot to OS than a BIOS boot to OS. | Dec 06 22:34 |
| oiaohm | But yes they did not meet their complete objective. | Dec 06 22:34 |
| MinceR | the usual [u]efi game: 1. proclaim that doing A is very important; 2. sacrifice everything sane in the name of A; 3. fail to do A | Dec 06 22:34 |
| MinceR | and they expect to be praised for this | Dec 06 22:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its a 90+ percent reduction of stuff in SMM | Dec 06 22:34 |
| MinceR | i don't care | Dec 06 22:35 |
| MinceR | it's a 100 percent reduction of the stuff general purpose computers exist for | Dec 06 22:35 |
| MinceR | they don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater | Dec 06 22:35 |
| MinceR | they throw the baby into a furnace while carefully preserving the bathwater | Dec 06 22:35 |
| MinceR | and then they demand compliments for getting rid of the bathwater and keeping the baby | Dec 06 22:36 |
| oiaohm | SMM code from BIOS has been resposnable for random Windows/Linux/BSD/Solaris... crashs due to locking hardware under OS. | Dec 06 22:36 |
| MinceR | and then you say "but they did end up with a few drops of bathwater less!" | Dec 06 22:36 |
| MinceR | yes, and it's still there! | Dec 06 22:36 |
| MinceR | but now you also get bricked before the OS gets to load | Dec 06 22:36 |
| MinceR | is that progress? | Dec 06 22:36 |
| oiaohm | To be correct some UEFI systems in fact have nothing in SMM mode when OS is running. | Dec 06 22:37 |
| MinceR | i wish i could "work" with the standards set for these people | Dec 06 22:37 |
| MinceR | i would get paid lavishly while doing nothing | Dec 06 22:37 |
| MinceR | and doing nothing would still be better than what these people ever achieved | Dec 06 22:37 |
| oiaohm | Why UEFI has some is some hardware depends on software power management instead of having a power management microcontrol. | Dec 06 22:37 |
| MinceR | ooh, we have a "UEFI system" in the lab that runs nothing in SMM mode! | Dec 06 22:38 |
| MinceR | that's great, and i have a computer that runs what i want it to run | Dec 06 22:38 |
| oiaohm | There are some boards in the wild. | Dec 06 22:38 |
| MinceR | you know what else runs nothing in SMM mode? a rock! | Dec 06 22:38 |
| oiaohm | SMM mode is levels of nightmare. | Dec 06 22:38 |
| MinceR | which is incidentally a lot more useful than what these idiots at m$, intel and crApple are hacking up | Dec 06 22:38 |
| MinceR | yes, so is uefi. | Dec 06 22:39 |
| MinceR | and so is windows, and so is macos. | Dec 06 22:39 |
| MinceR | maybe it would be more productive to design a new architecture from scratch without the stuff we want to get rid of | Dec 06 22:39 |
| MinceR | instead of this pointless wankery | Dec 06 22:40 |
| MinceR | i bet it could be done with less work than it took to shit out TianoCore | Dec 06 22:41 |
| oiaohm | Unforantly I have to agree x86 platforms are insanely complex to start up. | Dec 06 22:41 |
| MinceR | good thing these ingenious people are working to fix that, right? | Dec 06 22:42 |
| oiaohm | The big thing about UEFI documentation is that it starts showing people what people making BIOS for motherboard were doing in secert. | Dec 06 22:42 |
| MinceR | so far they've managed to make them even more insanely complex to start up | Dec 06 22:42 |
| MinceR | and less reliable | Dec 06 22:42 |
| MinceR | progress! | Dec 06 22:42 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 06 22:42 |
| oiaohm | The start up process was insanely complex MinceR | Dec 06 22:42 |
| oiaohm | Just you had no documentation about it. | Dec 06 22:43 |
| MinceR | what does it say about these people that their work accomplished less than actually doing nothing would have? | Dec 06 22:43 |
| oiaohm | Read coreboot documentation on starting up. | Dec 06 22:43 |
| oiaohm | You will find it about as complex as UEFI. | Dec 06 22:43 |
| cubexyz | it is complex | Dec 06 22:43 |
| MinceR | try checking the _code_ | Dec 06 22:43 |
| MinceR | they don't have to do it in secret anymore because they'll have the government ban general purpose computers from the use of us slaves? | Dec 06 22:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot and UEFI if you look at code are about equally complex. | Dec 06 22:44 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 06 22:44 |
| oiaohm | Reality starting an x86 system is a pure pain in ass. | Dec 06 22:44 |
| MinceR | why make it more painful? | Dec 06 22:44 |
| cubexyz | there's the old ISA/PCI stuff as well | Dec 06 22:45 |
| MinceR | is more pain better than less pain? | Dec 06 22:45 |
| oiaohm | Shockily UEFI is less painful than old bios. Coreboot is also modular with items like services. | Dec 06 22:45 |
| MinceR | having to jump through hoops to boot a secure OS is "less painful" than not having to do so? | Dec 06 22:46 |
| MinceR | is this some sort of bizarro world? | Dec 06 22:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically the only way to make starting an x86 less painful would be redesign the complete thing. | Dec 06 22:46 |
| MinceR | COMPLEXITY IS SIMPLICITY | Dec 06 22:46 |
| MinceR | WAR IS PEACE | Dec 06 22:46 |
| oiaohm | Even in bios you have to run checksums on parts. | Dec 06 22:46 |
| MinceR | FREEDOM IS SLAVERY | Dec 06 22:46 |
| cubexyz | go raspberry pi then | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH | Dec 06 22:47 |
| cubexyz | at least it's not x86 | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | for some of my workload, i already have | Dec 06 22:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: signing checking was going on in old school bioses behind you back. | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | but some of it probably won't work on pi | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and yet old school bioses would boot any os i want to | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | without asking | Dec 06 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Most of the UEFI does is put what was going on in background front and centre. | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | without putting a ticking time bomb in the process | Dec 06 22:47 |
| MinceR | great | Dec 06 22:48 |
| MinceR | when will they fix it? | Dec 06 22:48 |
| oiaohm | Old bios had lot of ticking time bombs. | Dec 06 22:48 |
| MinceR | also, when will they take out the unnecessary shit that broke it even more? | Dec 06 22:48 |
| MinceR | also, on what basis should i have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to fix things? | Dec 06 22:49 |
| oiaohm | The secure boot signing pushed through to OS is just extending what was going on. | Dec 06 22:49 |
| MinceR | so far, they've made things more broken and proudly proclaimed "HERP DERP FIXED NOW!" | Dec 06 22:49 |
| oiaohm | Do you remember BIOS that refused to boot if your MBR had changed. | Dec 06 22:49 |
| MinceR | yes, extending it in a way that fucks up computers for the people who buy them | Dec 06 22:49 |
| MinceR | no, i don't | Dec 06 22:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: they exist. | Dec 06 22:49 |
| MinceR | i happily changed MBRs and kept on booting | Dec 06 22:49 |
| MinceR | yes, uefi appliances exist too | Dec 06 22:49 |
| oiaohm | Most bioses had the switch turned off but some came with it on. | Dec 06 22:50 |
| cubexyz | there was an MBR protection thing I think | Dec 06 22:50 |
| MinceR | and the way things are going, soon there won't be any x86 PCs made that do what their alleged owner tells them to | Dec 06 22:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes MBR protection. | Dec 06 22:50 |
| cubexyz | boot sector watchdog | Dec 06 22:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep another name for the same thing. | Dec 06 22:50 |
| oiaohm | So firmware checking your loader is not exactly new. | Dec 06 22:50 |
| MinceR | yes, they're good at coming up with nice-sounding names for misfeatures | Dec 06 22:50 |
| MinceR | they even call DRM "security" | Dec 06 22:50 |
| MinceR | even though it's the opposite, if anything | Dec 06 22:50 |
| MinceR | can we not focus instead on what things _are_? | Dec 06 22:51 |
| oiaohm | I had the horible case of a motherboard that would only accept a Microsoft MBR. | Dec 06 22:51 |
| cubexyz | which motherboard was that? | Dec 06 22:51 |
| oiaohm | and Microsoft boot sector. | Dec 06 22:51 |
| cubexyz | which BIOS was that? :) | Dec 06 22:51 |
| MinceR | i'm not terribly interested on what the Party wishes i believed | Dec 06 22:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: some rebranded foxcomm made board cheap. | Dec 06 22:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: AMI BIOS | Dec 06 22:52 |
| MinceR | cheap | Dec 06 22:52 |
| MinceR | so even they knew it was crap | Dec 06 22:52 |
| MinceR | back then | Dec 06 22:52 |
| MinceR | now it's "securiteh" | Dec 06 22:52 |
| cubexyz | I like Tyan, MSI, and maybe ECS | Dec 06 22:52 |
| oiaohm | The reality was there was no option to get around it. | Dec 06 22:52 |
| cubexyz | still have to try ECS though | Dec 06 22:52 |
| oiaohm | At least UEFI does define options. | Dec 06 22:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you would probably have to rewrite the BIOS to fix it | Dec 06 22:52 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 06 22:53 |
| MinceR | option 1: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what m$ tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 06 22:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: vendor not providing updates and board not supported by anyone else. It taught me what the worst case was. I scraped the board. | Dec 06 22:53 |
| MinceR | option 2: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what crApple tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 06 22:53 |
| MinceR | option 3: have no computers or things that pretend they're computers | Dec 06 22:53 |
| MinceR | and that's it | Dec 06 22:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you probably would have had to give AMI major $$$ to fix that | Dec 06 22:53 |
| MinceR | thanks, uefi! | Dec 06 22:53 |
| cubexyz | not worth it | Dec 06 22:54 |
| oiaohm | From my point of view UEFI is at least workable. Pain in Ass but workable. | Dec 06 22:54 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I don't think I own an UEFI computer :) | Dec 06 22:54 |
| MinceR | i don't see why you want pain in the ass | Dec 06 22:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the UEFI ones I have do have replaced PK and KEKs. | Dec 06 22:54 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, I don't ... for sure I don't | Dec 06 22:55 |
| MinceR | i also don't see why you believe they'll stop _just_ short of making it impossible to run something not broken on the alleged computer | Dec 06 22:55 |
| MinceR | after putting all the infrastructure in place to force the alleged computer to be just another bot in m$'s (or crApple's) botnet | Dec 06 22:55 |
| MinceR | it's a lot like cancerd, btw | Dec 06 22:56 |
| MinceR | something complex and broken is forced on you without giving you a choice, and they claim it's simple and better | Dec 06 22:56 |
| cubexyz | you can put coreboot on quite a few Gigabyte motherboards | Dec 06 22:57 |
| MinceR | btw, 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manual | Dec 06 22:57 |
| oiaohm | There is still on going debate if bootloader should be able to ship with KEK to add to boot system after user approval. | Dec 06 22:59 |
| oiaohm | UEFI still could improve to less painful. | Dec 06 23:00 |
| MinceR | that's the wrong thing to debate | Dec 06 23:00 |
| MinceR | yes, setting the whole thing on fire and having the people responsible do menial work instead would improve it to less painful | Dec 06 23:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: with BIOS we had random crash pain due to what it was doing in secret. UEFI we have secure boot pain. So we swapped on pain for another. | Dec 06 23:02 |
| MinceR | replacing governments with ones that actually enforce antitrust law would also be an improvement | Dec 06 23:02 |
| oiaohm | Mind you UEFI has improved from starting location. | Dec 06 23:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: thanks, but i'm not interested in trying out various instruments of torture on myself. | Dec 06 23:02 |
| MinceR | that only means the starting location was allegedly even worse | Dec 06 23:02 |
| MinceR | as long as it's worse than bios, i'm not interested in it | Dec 06 23:03 |
| MinceR | i'm not interested in replacing things with worse things | Dec 06 23:03 |
| MinceR | this is also why i'm not an ideal m$ customer | Dec 06 23:03 |
| oiaohm | http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html This is what it was like in 2012 | Dec 06 23:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rodsbooks.com | Managing EFI Boot Loaders for Linux: Dealing with Secure Boot | Dec 06 23:04 | |
| oiaohm | Notice no means to clear the PK or set your own KEK. | Dec 06 23:04 |
| oiaohm | So now you had to use a shim loader that you had to have signed by Microsoft. | Dec 06 23:04 |
| MinceR | no, in 2012 you could easily buy an x86 PC that could at least do "Legacy Boot" | Dec 06 23:04 |
| MinceR | that's going away | Dec 06 23:04 |
| MinceR | and that's not an improvement. | Dec 06 23:04 |
| MinceR | it's the opposite of an improvement. | Dec 06 23:04 |
| oiaohm | Even in 2012 there was EFI boards without legacy boot. | Dec 06 23:05 |
| MinceR | yes, and even in 2012 there was human excrement | Dec 06 23:05 |
| MinceR | yet i did not attempt to use that to do my computing | Dec 06 23:05 |
| MinceR | i used a general purpose computer. | Dec 06 23:05 |
| oiaohm | Please note legacy boot on old EFI. EFI has still run it just loads some like SEABIOS as the loader. | Dec 06 23:06 |
| MinceR | which is bad | Dec 06 23:06 |
| MinceR | but still not as bad as forced restricted boot | Dec 06 23:06 |
| MinceR | or restricted boot on by default with the switch cleverly hidden | Dec 06 23:06 |
| oiaohm | The idea is to push legacy bios to the EFI partition. | Dec 06 23:06 |
| MinceR | they're so clever when it comes to fucking customers over | Dec 06 23:07 |
| oiaohm | To make it simpler to update. | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | why are they never clever in a constructive way? | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | finally a hdd malfunction can brick the pc | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | just the thing i wanted! | Dec 06 23:07 |
| oiaohm | No you still have EFI to fall back on. | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | i have something unworkable to fall back on | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | so my brick can also function as a brick | Dec 06 23:07 |
| MinceR | how handy! | Dec 06 23:07 |
| oiaohm | Most annoying thing about some EFI implemtnations is boot from internal harddrive only. | Dec 06 23:08 |
| oiaohm | No USB drivers in firmware. | Dec 06 23:09 |
| MinceR | yay, progress | Dec 06 23:09 |
| MinceR | it must take lots of ingenuity and hard work to fuck up things that used to work | Dec 06 23:09 |
| MinceR | considering the worship intel, m$ and redcrap receive for doing exactly that | Dec 06 23:09 |
| MinceR | you'd think any retard with a sledgehammer could do it | Dec 06 23:10 |
| oiaohm | Rasbery pi will not boot from USB out box either. | Dec 06 23:10 |
| MinceR | at least it will still boot from microsd, which is removable | Dec 06 23:10 |
| MinceR | easily removable | Dec 06 23:10 |
| MinceR | and replaceable | Dec 06 23:10 |
| oiaohm | sata harddrive is removable. | Dec 06 23:10 |
| MinceR | you might lose your warranty for removing it | Dec 06 23:11 |
| MinceR | if it's a laptop, you might have to remove pretty much everything else before you can remove it | Dec 06 23:11 |
| MinceR | but who cares, when the first priority is fucking over the users | Dec 06 23:11 |
| oiaohm | NIST laptop requirements have harddrive in individual removable compartment. | Dec 06 23:12 |
| oiaohm | For data protection reasons. | Dec 06 23:12 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 06 23:12 |
| MinceR | somehow that particular requirement they're not as keen on enforcing as restricted boot | Dec 06 23:12 |
| MinceR | i wonder why | Dec 06 23:13 |
| oiaohm | To be correct they are keen on enforcing that. | Dec 06 23:13 |
| MinceR | am i hallucinating all these laptops that don't have it, then? | Dec 06 23:13 |
| MinceR | http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-06 | Dec 06 23:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-06 | Dilbert by Scott Adams | Dec 06 23:14 | |
| oiaohm | 60 percent of laptop made have indivudal compartments for harddrive | Dec 06 23:14 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 06 23:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist alone does not get you to 100 percent. | Dec 06 23:15 |
| MinceR | it doesn't get me anywhere, except into hell | Dec 06 23:15 |
| MinceR | where do you want to go today? never mind, you're not getting there, ever! | Dec 06 23:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its taking what vendors have market share then looking at construction. HP, Toshibias.... Most of the big boys most models of laptops obey NIST. Exception in a big way is Apple who does what every they like. | Dec 06 23:17 |
| MinceR | yet crApple jumped on [u]efi before most others | Dec 06 23:17 |
| MinceR | so NIST gets their way when it's hugely destructive | Dec 06 23:17 |
| MinceR | and not if it's (probably by mistake) constructive | Dec 06 23:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Apple laptop try to remove harddrive. | Dec 06 23:18 |
| MinceR | and still, mandating a separate HDD compartment is no excuse for breaking booting from removable devices | Dec 06 23:18 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: smash on rock, sort fragments. | Dec 06 23:18 |
| MinceR | bonus: it still retains all of its original functionality, since it's crApple | Dec 06 23:18 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not say break booting from removable harddrive they just have not given a solid ruling on that. | Dec 06 23:18 |
| MinceR | and if you're lucky, the battery will blow the whole thing apart for you | Dec 06 23:18 |
| MinceR | ooh, that's so nice of them | Dec 06 23:19 |
| oiaohm | I am hoping NIST rules that booting from removable drives has to work. | Dec 06 23:19 |
| MinceR | maybe they should find a career they can perform adequately | Dec 06 23:19 |
| MinceR | for example, they could try cleaning toilets | Dec 06 23:19 |
| oiaohm | That is fairly much what NIST does from a security point of view. | Dec 06 23:20 |
| oiaohm | The attempt to clean up after disaster to prevent them happening again write rules. | Dec 06 23:20 |
| MinceR | i'm hoping that when they manage to get humanity to exterminate itself, it goes extra painful for them. | Dec 06 23:20 |
| MinceR | actually, as shown above, they have no clue about security | Dec 06 23:20 |
| MinceR | (no, locking people into winblows is not security) | Dec 06 23:20 |
| oiaohm | NIST was the one that allowed us to load our own KEK into secureboot so we don't have to run Windows. | Dec 06 23:21 |
| MinceR | NIST was the one that (according to you) forced restricted boot on us in the first place | Dec 06 23:21 |
| MinceR | without restricted boot, it was easy to not run winblows | Dec 06 23:22 |
| MinceR | so they didn't do shit about that, they just made it more difficult | Dec 06 23:22 |
| oiaohm | Yes but they did not think that anyone one be mad enough to make there design on a general PC restricted to 1 OS. | Dec 06 23:22 |
| MinceR | "they did not think" | Dec 06 23:22 |
| MinceR | that's the point | Dec 06 23:22 |
| oiaohm | Lets just say NIST really lacks in the future looking department and is reactive. | Dec 06 23:22 |
| MinceR | people who do not think should not be given such power. | Dec 06 23:23 |
| MinceR | yes, they lack in the department that, among other things, looks into the future | Dec 06 23:23 |
| MinceR | we call that department the "brain" | Dec 06 23:23 |
| oiaohm | I do agree that NIST need to have a little more forward planing skills | Dec 06 23:23 |
| MinceR | humanity has managed to put destructive, psychotic, parasitic idiots in charge of the IT industry. | Dec 06 23:23 |
| MinceR | no, they need to be eliminated. | Dec 06 23:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST is not attempt to be our enemy. But their level of incompetence is dangerous. | Dec 06 23:24 |
| MinceR | exactly | Dec 06 23:24 |
| MinceR | such incompetence can not be fixed by adding a few skills | Dec 06 23:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST gives too much faith that ODM will do the right things. | Dec 06 23:24 |
| MinceR | then they're utterly idiotic | Dec 06 23:24 |
| MinceR | ODMs have never done the right things | Dec 06 23:24 |
| MinceR | especially not under m$/crApple control | Dec 06 23:25 |
| oiaohm | Nothing NIST recommends is without reason. | Dec 06 23:25 |
| oiaohm | So there is some thinking. | Dec 06 23:25 |
| oiaohm | Just is backwards looking thinking. | Dec 06 23:25 |
| MinceR | so, a PRNG does "thinking" too? | Dec 06 23:25 |
| oiaohm | The hard part thinking NIST is recommending things based on historic events means if we ingore them we are doomed to repeat those historic events. | Dec 06 23:26 |
| oiaohm | Security is never simple | Dec 06 23:27 |
| MinceR | then perhaps we should stop putting simpletons in charge. | Dec 06 23:27 |
| oiaohm | There is a old saying. You can have userablity or secuirty but not both. | Dec 06 23:27 |
| MinceR | and with NIST, you will have neither! | Dec 06 23:28 |
| oiaohm | NIST puts down the recommendations. | Dec 06 23:28 |
| MinceR | they should not put them down | Dec 06 23:28 |
| oiaohm | Then intel and others are meant to implement those recommendation. | Dec 06 23:28 |
| MinceR | they should put them up. | Dec 06 23:28 |
| MinceR | where the sun doesn't shine. | Dec 06 23:28 |
| MinceR | recommendations that lead to uefi with restricted boot are utter garbage | Dec 06 23:29 |
| oiaohm | Issue we have is those implemting NIST recommendations are not exactly doing the best job. | Dec 06 23:29 |
| MinceR | that's putting it lightly | Dec 06 23:29 |
| oiaohm | We cannot ingnore the need to protect firmware and bootloader and OS due to attacks that have happened. | Dec 06 23:30 |
| MinceR | they have done exactly none of those things | Dec 06 23:30 |
| MinceR | they have apparently taken part in such attacks, however | Dec 06 23:30 |
| MinceR | and so have the NSA. | Dec 06 23:31 |
| MinceR | against the interests of the people they parasitize. | Dec 06 23:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: implementers or NIST you will find a lot of your problem is with Implementors and its NIST who have forced implementers to come a little saner. | Dec 06 23:31 |
| MinceR | it's not even "a little saner" | Dec 06 23:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think first EFI no control of PK and no control of KEK so you could be truly locked out. | Dec 06 23:31 |
| MinceR | stop comparing current uefi to early efi and start comparing it to bios | Dec 06 23:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: bricking the computer can also lock you out | Dec 06 23:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: or my case with the must be MS MBR and Boot loader. | Dec 06 23:32 |
| oiaohm | That was bios. | Dec 06 23:32 |
| oiaohm | ODM were going the wrong way in the time of BIOS. | Dec 06 23:32 |
| MinceR | there's a difference between some ODMs fucking up and fascists mandating something fucked up by design. | Dec 06 23:33 |
| MinceR | in the former case, the user can win. | Dec 06 23:33 |
| MinceR | in the latter case, the user can only lose. | Dec 06 23:33 |
| oiaohm | Please note if someone designed a replacement to UEFI and it had all the features NIST lists NIST accept it. Coreboot used in chromebooks with locked write switch passes nist. Yes user can unlock it and change the keys if they wish. | Dec 06 23:35 |
| MinceR | yet nobody else uses coreboot | Dec 06 23:36 |
| MinceR | see above, under ODMs being controlled by m$ and crApple | Dec 06 23:36 |
| MinceR | also, i still don't give a flying fuck about what the NIST accepts | Dec 06 23:37 |
| oiaohm | coreboot in chromebook still checked loader against signing key. | Dec 06 23:37 |
| MinceR | which loader? | Dec 06 23:37 |
| oiaohm | While not in developer mode. | Dec 06 23:37 |
| oiaohm | the chromeos loader from google is signed MinceR | Dec 06 23:38 |
| MinceR | afaik you can remove the whole notion of "developer mode" by replacing the writeable part of the firmware with your own | Dec 06 23:38 |
| MinceR | also, developer mode is easy to enable | Dec 06 23:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden switch | Dec 06 23:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden feature that's activated by removing some keys somewhere or by playing with the system clock | Dec 06 23:38 |
| oiaohm | Chromebook is NIST conforming and userfriendly ish | Dec 06 23:39 |
| MinceR | chromebooks do things that, if you were only listening to NIST and m$, you'd think were impossible. | Dec 06 23:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes replacing the keys in a chromebook is can be a total pain in ass. | Dec 06 23:39 |
| oiaohm | If you listesned only to NIST chromebooks are possible. | Dec 06 23:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: listerning to Microsoft/Intel you might get the wrong point of view. | Dec 06 23:40 |
| MinceR | developer mode isn't even secret, it's advertised, afaik | Dec 06 23:41 |
| MinceR | though allegedly that too fucks up warranty | Dec 06 23:42 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not encougage secrects about security features. | Dec 06 23:43 |
| MinceR | again, you'd never guess that if you looked at uefi | Dec 06 23:43 |
| oiaohm | You have to look at everything NIST approves of to get a clear picture about them. | Dec 06 23:43 |
| oiaohm | Android verified boot is also NIST conforming. | Dec 06 23:44 |
| MinceR | seeing them approve of the clusterfuck called uefi gives me sufficient information | Dec 06 23:44 |
| MinceR | i wouldn't want android verified boot on my x86 pc | Dec 06 23:44 |
| MinceR | android is enough of a pain in the ass on mobile devices | Dec 06 23:44 |
| MinceR | especially since they started playing with mountspaces | Dec 06 23:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST has no focus on userablity and it shows. | Dec 06 23:45 |
| MinceR | they don't seem to have focus on anything | Dec 06 23:45 |
| MinceR | except maybe the money they get from m$ | Dec 06 23:45 |
| oiaohm | They do have focus on historic security failures. | Dec 06 23:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not get money from Microsoft. | Dec 06 23:45 |
| MinceR | they're committed to creating more of those? | Dec 06 23:45 |
| MinceR | how do you know? | Dec 06 23:45 |
| MinceR | are bribes generally publicized? | Dec 06 23:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist case yes accepting any gifts without formally declaring them risks of all things prosecution for treason and sent to a mil prison who knows where. | Dec 06 23:48 |
| MinceR | sounds like a foolproof method to avoid corruption | Dec 06 23:49 |
| MinceR | we have the recipe after all | Dec 06 23:49 |
| MinceR | so we must have stopped corruption everywhere | Dec 06 23:49 |
| MinceR | wait a minute | Dec 06 23:49 |
| oiaohm | Back in 2010 some NIST inspectors got done and end up in prison. | Dec 06 23:51 |
| MinceR | ones who weren't careful | Dec 06 23:52 |
| MinceR | or took bribes from the wrong party | Dec 06 23:52 |
| oiaohm | NIST is audted by FBI, CIA and NCIS. | Dec 06 23:52 |
| MinceR | if only they could also get the NSA on board | Dec 06 23:54 |
| oiaohm | NSA is suspected as well but confirming that is a bit hard. | Dec 06 23:54 |
| MinceR | "That's crazy. The government doesn't lie to people. " | Dec 06 23:54 |
| oiaohm | Of course the group writing rules for USA governement secuirty is going to be one of the most audited places on earth. | Dec 06 23:54 |
| MinceR | or it would be, if the people responsible actually cared and knew what they were doing | Dec 06 23:55 |
| oiaohm | Being the most audited place on earth does not mean the people there are 100 percent competent. | Dec 06 23:55 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, neither is often the case | Dec 06 23:55 |
| MinceR | case in point: NSA not caring that they fuck up security for the people who their bills | Dec 06 23:55 |
| MinceR | case in point #2: NIST (allegedly) propping up restricted boot | Dec 06 23:55 |
| MinceR | s/who /who pay / | Dec 06 23:56 |
| oiaohm | No it was not allegedly I brought in the PDF for cubexyz before. | Dec 06 23:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST who suggested secureboot idea. | Dec 06 23:56 |
| oiaohm | How to implement that NIST only gave a rough overview and left it up to the implemtenter to fill in the holes. | Dec 06 23:57 |
| MinceR | and then approved the horrible mess it led to | Dec 06 23:58 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Dec 06 23:58 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not approve the first EFI stuff where you could not change the platform key and could not use your own KEK keys. | Dec 06 23:58 |
| MinceR | when government organizations regularly do the opposite of what they're supposed to be doing, isn't it time to shut them down? | Dec 06 23:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so NIST did not approve the complete horible mess. NIST approved a slightly improved horible mess. | Dec 07 00:00 |
| MinceR | which is still a horrible mess | Dec 07 00:00 |
| MinceR | and still worse than what we had before the whole thing | Dec 07 00:00 |
| MinceR | and yet it's being increasingly forced on us | Dec 07 00:00 |
| oiaohm | Of course due to NIST being history looking they are still free to force more rules down the system. | Dec 07 00:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: thing to remember NIST is one of the parties who can create rules that ODM will follow. Problem is is working how to get them to push rules to make our life better. | Dec 07 00:03 |
| MinceR | that sounds extremely unlikely to work | Dec 07 00:03 |
| MinceR | it would be better to stop them from messing with our equipment | Dec 07 00:04 |
| oiaohm | There is an attempt at momement to get NIST to mandate open source firmware. | Dec 07 00:04 |
| MinceR | or you could try firing everyone who "works" there and hire people who know what they're doing in their place | Dec 07 00:04 |
| MinceR | i can see how successful that's going to be | Dec 07 00:04 |
| oiaohm | There is also questions at the FCC on the same matter. | Dec 07 00:06 |
| MinceR | well, yeah | Dec 07 00:06 |
| oiaohm | The reality here is if FCC and NIST madated Open source ODM would just have to suck it up. | Dec 07 00:06 |
| MinceR | after the whole "HERP DERP LOCK DOWN THE ROUTERS" bullshit from them | Dec 07 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Locking down the routers failed security assement. | Dec 07 00:07 |
| MinceR | i'd rather try 3d-printing my own IC-s | Dec 07 00:07 |
| oiaohm | So now the arguement has flipped on ear. | Dec 07 00:07 |
| MinceR | sounds like it's more likely to work | Dec 07 00:07 |
| oiaohm | Please note NIST got mixed up with the FCC over the routers. | Dec 07 00:08 |
| MinceR | well, at least they can't fuck things up even more for us while they're bickering with each other | Dec 07 00:08 |
| oiaohm | Historically NIST has not exactly liked closed source. | Dec 07 00:09 |
| oiaohm | Its more of a tollerance. | Dec 07 00:10 |
| MinceR | i wonder what changed their mind | Dec 07 00:10 |
| MinceR | $omething'$ telling me it'$ the exact $ame thing that ha$ done thi$ in every other ca$e | Dec 07 00:10 |
| oiaohm | No its not exactly money. It is more hurding cats. | Dec 07 00:12 |
| MinceR | or the usual fascist assumption that concentrating all power in the usian government/megacorporate complex will make things more secure for them | Dec 07 00:13 |
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| Anawn | Anyone seen TheMadHatter? | Dec 07 04:05 |
| Anawn | !seen TheMadHatter | Dec 07 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/673667999325405185 | Dec 07 04:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives https://t.co/fL3JxGOFNo #suepo #epo | Dec 07 04:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/horakanwalt/status/673633686521298948 https://twitter.com/michaelhorak/status/673625762294034433 | Dec 07 04:40 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives | Techrights | Dec 07 04:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@horakanwalt: RT PatentWire "EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/q366gJPflp" | Dec 07 04:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” | Techrights | Dec 07 04:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@michaelhorak: RT PatentWire "No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to… https://t.co/JH7oNVjy2T" | Dec 07 04:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights | Dec 07 04:40 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805320196595712 | Dec 07 05:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/fiRtFKoqgD | Dec 07 05:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Article Highlights #EPO ’s Capitalist Venture Tendencies, Seeking to Just Maximize Profit, Irrespective of Public https://t.co/dOwKDwEnGl | Dec 07 05:06 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805616847171585 | Dec 07 05:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/4QzoOvqgoi | Dec 07 05:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World https://t.co/yoyptSZ7N3 | Dec 07 05:07 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673806178703552512 | Dec 07 05:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw E il membro Italiano ? https://t.co/wBGe6ji2mM | Dec 07 05:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The Tail That Wags the Dog: How an EPO President Virtually Controls the Administrative Council (AC) https://t.co/vGmM5p6K2I #epo | Dec 07 05:10 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/673813299788689408 | Dec 07 05:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/tlZLLjhcXN | Dec 07 05:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Steam for Linux Now Correctly Shows Only #SteamOS / #Linux Games in Big Picture Mode https://t.co/OaNDNALOoR | Dec 07 05:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- (Re-tweeted by Aid_Rostov) | Dec 07 05:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673817700255326208 | Dec 07 05:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz you are still WRONG | Dec 07 05:57 | |
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| __martin__ | schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPO | Dec 07 12:14 |
| __martin__ | meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 12:15 |
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| MinceR | lol, budapest | Dec 07 12:21 |
| MinceR | their punishment is living in budapest | Dec 07 12:21 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673856477791129601 | Dec 07 12:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal @ruskin147 https://t.co/tBs8KeGHwu | Dec 07 12:54 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal | Techrights | Dec 07 12:54 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/673862322515939328 | Dec 07 12:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Why is it when ppl talk Banks having a "mobile wallet" I feel like some1's got there hands in my pockets?! Tap&go is bad enough | Dec 07 12:55 | |
| schestowitz | Indeed | Dec 07 12:55 |
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| schestowitz | I'm starting to just assume that someone at the BBC is suppressing the article and might wish to point this out if I don't hear back... | Dec 07 13:17 |
| schestowitz | 6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 13:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:15] <__martin__> meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 13:18 |
| schestowitz | Not a big different | Dec 07 13:18 |
| schestowitz | *difference | Dec 07 13:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:14] <__martin__> schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPO | Dec 07 13:18 |
| schestowitz | No source, sounds new to me, maybe not credible or unlikely to become a potent thing | Dec 07 13:19 |
| schestowitz | like OpenISO amid OOXML scandals | Dec 07 13:19 |
| schestowitz | Never took off | Dec 07 13:19 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/theGuruWithin/status/673931988647067648 | Dec 07 13:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@theGuruWithin: .@Crypt0nymous .@schestowitz .@democracynow .@Freedom_Daily .@RT_com Bernie & Families First Dreamers FULL #idwp https://t.co/LpahP0uBTI | Dec 07 13:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673939867559182336 | Dec 07 14:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz @Sheikh_al_Touar Rather damning, that. | Dec 07 14:03 | |
| schestowitz | \upcWe just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 14:53 |
| schestowitz | We just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 14:53 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 15:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz this cries out for real stories about how quality is pursued. For example. | Dec 07 15:08 | |
| MinceR | (javascript) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/05/21/quiz-just-how-kafkaesque-is-the-court-that-oversees-nsa-spying/ | Dec 07 15:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | Quiz: Just how Kafkaesque is the court that oversees NSA spying? - The Washington Post | Dec 07 15:56 | |
| schestowitz | Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://avi.alkalay.net/2015/12/open-source-swift.html No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 07 15:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-avi.alkalay.net | Is Open Source Swift a good thing ? « Avi Alkalay | Dec 07 15:59 | |
| MinceR | typical crApple quality | Dec 07 16:00 |
| schestowitz | openssl patches for Ubuntu | Dec 07 16:11 |
| schestowitz | Just in: http://lwn.net/Articles/667035/rss | Dec 07 16:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Security advisories for Monday [LWN.net] | Dec 07 16:11 | |
| schestowitz | "Ubuntu has updated cups-filters (15.10, 15.04, 14.04: code execution), foomatic-filters (12.04: code execution), and openssl (multiple vulnerabilities). " | Dec 07 16:11 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/07/apple-open-source-first/ | Dec 07 16:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-9to5mac.com | Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism | 9to5Mac | Dec 07 16:16 | |
| MinceR | wow | Dec 07 16:16 |
| MinceR | that's got to be a first | Dec 07 16:16 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 16:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673973548113895424 | Dec 07 16:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Thnx waited for this post :) ...think youre a rich but busy social type + not happy of gov.politics . cool guy u lol https://t.co/2EtRhlZQsP | Dec 07 16:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Day 7 — Unicode, Perl 6, and You https://t.co/YSKIKLYZ76 #perl #unicode | Dec 07 16:26 | |
| schestowitz | I don't like politics | Dec 07 16:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/673974518113681408 | Dec 07 16:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz No, let's put Windows [N]XP in every automotive engine. (The games will keep the car amused while idling.) | Dec 07 16:26 | |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 07 16:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MCCob/status/673975611774345216 | Dec 07 16:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MCCob: @schestowitz @AlexArchambault any proof that they _only_ use not encrypted communication ? ISIS use encryption | Dec 07 16:27 | |
| MinceR | i didn't know BSoDs were signs of amusement | Dec 07 16:27 |
| schestowitz | People who carry out successful attacks evidently don't use these tools | Dec 07 16:27 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673975763612409857 | Dec 07 16:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: True noticed that, on paper they are perfect...but not socialy adaptive knowledges or patience to catch, sucseed https://t.co/g1HWWcu9Nc | Dec 07 16:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #Security lacks patience https://t.co/ZUWbHOzKkX | Dec 07 16:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/673976106744057856 | Dec 07 16:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: Bwahaha, hilarious. https://t.co/lwONgsRHok | Dec 07 16:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 07 16:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978026938507265 | Dec 07 16:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Logic, wait, you're not a member of the Reality-Based Community are you? You'd never make it as a policymaker! | Dec 07 16:31 | |
| schestowitz | Sarcasm community | Dec 07 16:31 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978403549265922 | Dec 07 16:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Indeed. | Dec 07 16:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/slimekat/status/673979096569937921 | Dec 07 16:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@slimekat: @schestowitz @kstallett @andrewtraviss lol | Dec 07 16:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673979261833912324 | Dec 07 16:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Me 2 realy hate them, personal issues. Never studied english but can exptess profoundly the rights of people :) thnx https://t.co/udoOONPVZj | Dec 07 16:38 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @blankebelg I don't like politics | Dec 07 16:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673980481105485824 | Dec 07 16:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz They should probably also ban human to human interaction. All this will mean we forget the gov forgot to track known extremists | Dec 07 16:47 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ReystarTech/status/673985338797334533 | Dec 07 17:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ReystarTech: RT @schestowitz: #Google To Launch #Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? https://t.co/zhXLddy4DC #linux | Dec 07 17:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidheadlines.com | Google To Launch Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? | Androidheadlines.com | Dec 07 17:06 | |
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| cubexyz | you don't think bsods like this one are funny? | Dec 07 17:53 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/bsod-microsoft-vista.jpg | Dec 07 17:54 |
| cubexyz | when they can't keep a demo from bsoding it's funny | Dec 07 17:55 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 07 17:55 |
| schestowitz | they should replace the blue screen with all pixels blacked | Dec 07 17:58 |
| schestowitz | then they can insist the photos were taken while the monitors were switched off | Dec 07 17:58 |
| cubexyz | haha | Dec 07 17:58 |
| schestowitz | it's like a rebrand of BSOD | Dec 07 17:59 |
| schestowitz | to evade the negative press | Dec 07 17:59 |
| schestowitz | and the stigma | Dec 07 17:59 |
| MinceR | they already tried automatically rebooting when the BSoD pops up | Dec 07 18:00 |
| cubexyz | this one is funny too: | Dec 07 18:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg | Dec 07 18:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg ) | Dec 07 18:00 | |
| cubexyz | "have you tried rebooting?" | Dec 07 18:02 |
| cubexyz | yes I did, and it bsoded again in the same spot | Dec 07 18:02 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674002953989136385 | Dec 07 18:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What's happened? | Dec 07 18:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674004469944819712 | Dec 07 18:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What? | Dec 07 18:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674009346095882240 | Dec 07 18:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz alibi? | Dec 07 18:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/azrilxx/status/674015748306558976 | Dec 07 19:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@azrilxx: Until they tackle Exchange, can't see them fighting Outlook any time soon https://t.co/VU5ddEqxw1 | Dec 07 19:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Potential cooperation between #LibreOffice and #Thunderbird https://t.co/cHOrphmdVH | Dec 07 19:05 | |
| cubexyz | I'm happy I'm off windows | Dec 07 19:15 |
| cubexyz | things seem to be a lot worst now then the win2k era | Dec 07 19:16 |
| cubexyz | forced download and install of windows 10 just seems totally wrong | Dec 07 19:16 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017647340756993 https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017917592301568 | Dec 07 19:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: ничего,. Паства будет помнить этот факт и передавать из уст в уста)) https://t.co/MBeYw5qEsv | Dec 07 19:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 07 19:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @perfectlysoft @matt_clarkson @github But i agree with https://t.co/OUkfiedrZt | Dec 07 19:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://t.co/2N2p6AKP9W No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 07 19:32 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898137 | Dec 07 20:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Did the #EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? http://techrights.org/2015/12/07/bbc-and-epo/ | Dec 07 20:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Did the EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? | Techrights | Dec 07 20:49 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/674157378468749312 | Dec 08 04:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz basically everyone else has to do the BS verification just so that they have a stick to go after a few specific targets | Dec 08 04:37 | |
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| A_Friend | Hardon vs EPO https://www.docdroid.net/xw8mJzt/20151120-4th-letter-ef2jk-council-on-institutional-harassment-redacted.pdf.html | Dec 08 04:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.docdroid.net | 20151120 4th Letter EF2JK_Council on Institutional harassment redacted.pdf - DocDroid | Dec 08 04:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674162468848017408 | Dec 08 04:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Pirate Bay’s .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification https://t.co/q5AvqB9j7u #icann #censorship | Dec 08 04:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> torrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay's .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification - TorrentFreak | Dec 08 04:46 | |
| schestowitz | A_Friend: I know | Dec 08 04:46 |
| schestowitz | article on its way | Dec 08 04:47 |
| A_Friend | ok, thanks | Dec 08 04:47 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674164461406695424 | Dec 08 04:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz Lots of people there actually has felt as USSR for years. | Dec 08 04:58 | |
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| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/boards-of-appeal-tell-ac-we-were-never.html?showComment=1449576934490 | Dec 08 08:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 08:13 |
| schestowitz | Tony Soprano said... | Dec 08 08:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Boards of Appeal tell AC: we were never consulted | Dec 08 08:13 | |
| schestowitz | SUEPO “is not a trade union, it’s a mafia-type entity” according to Battistelli. | Dec 08 08:13 |
| schestowitz | Well that clearly explains the need for forensic investigators ... | Dec 08 08:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 08:13 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674223728742555649 | Dec 08 09:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz "Mannaggia! ...Forget about it! ....hey boss, should we call Luca Brasi and have him take care of this?" | Dec 08 09:04 | |
| schestowitz | LOL | Dec 08 09:04 |
| schestowitz | Librem send me a test unit to review (and return) | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | excerpt: | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completed | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confident | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware. | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard to | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone. | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future. | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | > All the best, | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | I have been following -- and covering -- Qubes for a number of years. I suppose these guys noticed. It sounds like a very legitimising partner because Qubes are known for some high quality security research, all the way down to boot sequences if not silicon (one of the points for which Librem got flack). | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | My wife doesn't requiee security and privacy to the same degree I do because I currently deal with some nasty organisations that hired spies to go after me (confirmed) and try to unmask my sources. They also sent me legal letters in an effort to bully me (not sure if you saw this in the media as recently as weeks ago). | Dec 08 09:13 |
| schestowitz | I intend to test the unit from the perspective of an activist/journalist... | Dec 08 09:14 |
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| schestowitz | two identical posts with the title "What Are Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) ? How Can You Benefit Out Of MOOCs?" were published this morning. In succession. I unpublished one of them to avoid the duplication, hoping it'll be just fine (I checked to be sure that both entries were identical) | Dec 08 09:29 |
| schestowitz | (tux machines) | Dec 08 09:30 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674235164256575488 | Dec 08 09:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @reportrai3 @t_montinari @AltalexNews https://t.co/TuWQlmf6gx | Dec 08 09:36 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: People who say I write too much about the #epo probably don't grasp the severity of the matter. Too fast? As fact as I receive material... | Dec 08 09:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674238950765166593 | Dec 08 09:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: Jesus Christ.... No decency, no dignity, no honour at all. https://t.co/ffS7yeYRhG | Dec 08 09:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: In J’accuse of Team #battistelli at #epo the spinners try to paint managers as saving staff from suicides, blame in on SUEPO. Guffaw! | Dec 08 09:48 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898379 | Dec 08 09:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Based on action/response logic, #france should NOT ban Tor or Free Wi-Fi but ban -- wait for it -- SMS. That's what these guys used. | Dec 08 09:58 | |
| schestowitz | "I think that the attack was a happy coincidence for the French Government to go ahead with plans made long before. And that if it was not a false flag." | Dec 08 09:58 |
| schestowitz | "Very clever point, Roy!" | Dec 08 09:58 |
| schestowitz | "similar to other attacks we've seen..." | Dec 08 09:58 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/674261557304541184 | Dec 08 11:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/fo9vc7AUk2 | Dec 08 11:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How 1,699 #Linux #games can give #SteamOS a boost https://t.co/8WbG9iS6YL and #debian by extension | Dec 08 11:19 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/redlocal/status/674272550004891648 | Dec 08 12:01 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@redlocal: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZG6NTArhYI #ubuntu https://t.co/CrxpoURMzS | Dec 08 12:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> linux.softpedia.com | elementary Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's Launchpad to GitHub | Dec 08 12:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZNEPeVoykY #ubuntu | Dec 08 12:01 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: What's a "National Front"? | Dec 08 12:11 |
| <--msb_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 08 12:12 | |
| schestowitz | in France | Dec 08 12:12 |
| schestowitz | Their Nazi party basically | Dec 08 12:12 |
| schestowitz | with very racist statements towards all sorts of groups | Dec 08 12:12 |
| schestowitz | not just Muslims | Dec 08 12:12 |
| schestowitz | They're now the leading party | Dec 08 12:12 |
| schestowitz | thanks to ISIS | Dec 08 12:13 |
| schestowitz | #google national front france nazis | Dec 08 12:13 |
| schestowitz | !google national front france nazis | Dec 08 12:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - National Front (France) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France) | Dec 08 12:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Jean-Marie Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen | Dec 08 12:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Marine Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen | Dec 08 12:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Far-right National Front triumph in France - Daily Mail | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638965/Massive-victory-French-far-right-National-Front-record-quarter-vote-Euro-elections.html | Dec 08 12:13 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: France… it degrades pretty quickly. | Dec 08 12:14 |
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| XRevan86 | schestowitz: I don't think this is really ISIL "fault" as it's people's choice how to respond to terrorism. | Dec 08 12:22 |
| MinceR | terrorism and the cults that lead to it are also people's choices | Dec 08 12:34 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: Indeed. | Dec 08 12:34 |
| schestowitz | !google mirage embargo france | Dec 08 12:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - France–Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%25E2%2580%2593Israel_relations | Dec 08 12:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5 | Dec 08 12:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - France - The Six-Day War | http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/france.asp | Dec 08 12:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - French History and Current Attitudes to Israel - An interview with ... | http://www.jcpa.org/israel-europe/ier-eytan-05.htm | Dec 08 12:38 |
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| arossdotme | sounds like, to quote a first person shooter game: "Terrorists Win" | Dec 08 13:55 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674301341313953792 | Dec 08 13:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Actually it was the USSR who backed North Vietnam. China did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 in fact. | Dec 08 13:59 | |
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| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/windows-cracked.jpg | Dec 08 19:42 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/mikelm31/status/674397349163220992 | Dec 08 20:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mikelm31: @schestowitz @REPUBSRFUBAR @japantimes ## Yes and why he stole 1.3 Trillion from Social Security ! And started this mess over lies! | Dec 08 20:17 | |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2438351/microsoft-begins-migrating-office-365-smb-customers-to-new-plans | Dec 09 05:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theinquirer.net | Microsoft begins migrating Office 365 SMB customers to new plans- The Inquirer | Dec 09 05:16 | |
| schestowitz | Not sure what to do with this link. Maybe I miss the key part... | Dec 09 05:16 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure Microsoft is screwing over their customers as usual | Dec 09 05:27 |
| cubexyz | padding their revenue stream as usual | Dec 09 05:27 |
| cubexyz | it's all about the subscription plans | Dec 09 05:29 |
| cubexyz | pay M$ forever | Dec 09 05:31 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 09 05:32 |
| schestowitz | but that's not news ;-) | Dec 09 05:32 |
| cubexyz | probably people aren't upgrading fast enough, thus Office 365 | Dec 09 05:34 |
| cubexyz | also Office 365 Home Premium needs windows 7 | Dec 09 05:38 |
| cubexyz | can't have people not upgrading don't you know | Dec 09 05:38 |
| cubexyz | also the cloud will keep the NSA guys happy | Dec 09 05:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz the question I have is when will Office 365 require windows 10. | Dec 09 05:40 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're not thinking like a true Microsoftie yet | Dec 09 05:41 |
| cubexyz | Office 365 will need Windows 365 in the future | Dec 09 05:41 |
| cubexyz | btw, Microsoft has trademarked Windows 365 already | Dec 09 05:43 |
| cubexyz | I mean, you don't have to be Nostradamus to see what's going on | Dec 09 05:43 |
| oiaohm | Libreoffice online is coming along. | Dec 09 05:44 |
| cubexyz | some survey data says the average person buys a new computer every 4.5 years | Dec 09 05:46 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/COMU/libreonline-owncloud | Dec 09 05:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | COMU/libreonline-owncloud · GitHub | Dec 09 05:46 | |
| cubexyz | in comparison....I'm quite the outlier | Dec 09 05:47 |
| cubexyz | I salvaged this Dell GX110 | Dec 09 05:48 |
| cubexyz | no one wanted it... makes a good IRC box though | Dec 09 05:48 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I've talked to several folks that wanted a 486 | Dec 09 05:49 |
| oiaohm | Really I suspect things will get more interesting as Libreoffice online matures. | Dec 09 05:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674538690727813120 | Dec 09 05:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @borghi_claudio @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico #TPP The older, yet less known brother of #TTIP https://t.co/aDMY6adHw6 | Dec 09 05:50 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How the #TPP Will Affect You and Your Digital Rights https://t.co/ml20zPG5Dw cc @glynmoody | Dec 09 05:50 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.org/project,ao486 that is a 486sx built using modern bits. | Dec 09 05:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | ao486 :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 05:52 | |
| cubexyz | I think bochs bios is open source, so that's kind of appealing | Dec 09 05:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other insanity as well http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~yiannac/docs/fpga07.pdf | Dec 09 05:54 |
| oiaohm | Yes pentuim cpu removed and fpga chip put in it place is the pdf. | Dec 09 05:55 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, opencores PDP-11 would be more fun I think | Dec 09 05:55 |
| cubexyz | I've definitely considered it | Dec 09 05:55 |
| oiaohm | http://opencores.org/project,next186_soc_pc I have looked at this one for some of my very old code. | Dec 09 05:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | Next186 SoC PC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 05:57 | |
| cubexyz | PDP-11/70 running Unix v5 | Dec 09 05:57 |
| cubexyz | http://opencores.com/project,w11 | Dec 09 05:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 05:57 | |
| oiaohm | This is party why I say to people please don't think you have to run old hardware. | Dec 09 05:59 |
| oiaohm | Lot of really old hardware can be emulated in fpga quite well and been a lot more dependable than the true stuff that is like 30 years old. | Dec 09 06:00 |
| cubexyz | getting a real PDP-11/70 that works well would be very expensive | Dec 09 06:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem is even if you got a real PDP-11/70 that worked today. The question is how long until another old part bites it. | Dec 09 06:00 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 09 06:00 |
| cubexyz | but for some, fixing stuff is half the fun | Dec 09 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Its still not straight forwards setting up a fpga chip. | Dec 09 06:01 |
| oiaohm | Like you have to wire up all the outputs and the the like. | Dec 09 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Also the fpga emulation can use less power than the old machine would. | Dec 09 06:02 |
| cubexyz | definitely | Dec 09 06:02 |
| cubexyz | way less :) | Dec 09 06:02 |
| oiaohm | Also way smaller as well. | Dec 09 06:04 |
| oiaohm | particularly in the case of PDP-11/70 compare to it soc replacement. | Dec 09 06:05 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.com/project,w11,performance hmm that is a PDP-11/70 on go fast juice. | Dec 09 06:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Performance :: OpenCores | Dec 09 06:07 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=BASYS3 so less than 300 dollars in parts to set up a PDP-11/70 emulated solution in modern day parts. | Dec 09 06:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.digilentinc.com | Digilent Inc. - Digital Design Engineer's Source | Dec 09 06:13 | |
| oiaohm | Kinda tempting if I was into running old Unix systems. | Dec 09 06:13 |
| cubexyz | well you can run simh for free :) | Dec 09 06:14 |
| cubexyz | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6c_0pqLE3w | Dec 09 06:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | unix version 5 demo - YouTube | Dec 09 06:16 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html | Dec 09 06:16 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:16 |
| schestowitz | The ILO decision linked by Kant is disheartening. It reveals poor behaviour on both sides, going back many years. While a few of Mrs E.H.'s complaints were upheld, more were dismissed. | Dec 09 06:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to Eponia | Dec 09 06:17 | |
| schestowitz | It seems to me that there are two causes of the social unrest at the EPO. It would be tempting to say "a plague on both their houses". But that would still leave serious problems. | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | If there is to be a solution, change and cooperation is needed from both sides. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any signs of change or cooperation from either side. Each side no doubt blames the other for the failure of the dialogue requested by the AC. | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | Vive le Roi! said... | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | "Today yet another member of the "inner circle" (I won't use the term mafia) was promoted to the rank of director." | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | Actually, there is an interesting graph which shows how the closest "collaborateurs" of Mr. Battistelli either originate from the INPI (Institut national de la propriété industrielle, of which Battistelli was the president) or are bound by family links between each other ... | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | Who said "nepotism"? | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | "Just one more blatant violation of the EPC, with obvious consequences. Inbreeding is prohibited under Art. 53 b) EPC" | Dec 09 06:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | The commenter that is convinced that BB and his clique will soon be shown the door is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | The reality is that France is on the front line, the cutting edge, of a war to defend our most fundamental freedoms and we are all called upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with the French. Nobody dares to suggest otherwise. | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | What are these fundamental values of which I write. Well, you know, the Secular State, the Rule of Law and the Separation of Powers. | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | What separation? The separation of the three branches: legislative, judicial and executive. BB is just a good soldier, bringing the mischief and wickedness to an end, doing his bit for Europe. He tells the Administrative Council (and himself, just like Tony Blair did) that, in the end, history and the public will come to recognise the sacrifices he has made, for the greater good of Europe. | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | But it didn't work out quite like that for Tony, did it? | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 06:18 |
| schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6903284 | Dec 09 06:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Stefan Krempl's article in German - if SUEPO doesn't produce a translation, does anyone else want to? ttp://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Europaeisches-Patentamt-Streit-zwischen-Fuehrung-und-Mitarbeitern-spitzt-sich-rasch-zu-3036971.html #epo | Dec 09 06:20 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6902547 | Dec 09 06:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of #EPO Staff Representatives http://techrights.org/2015/12/08/letter-to-administrative-council/ | Dec 09 06:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/674313610139668480 https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/673830690169851904 https://twitter.com/EuropePAN/status/674543042133626880 https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/674548732126433280 https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/674551671847002112 | Dec 09 06:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of EPO Staff Representatives | Techrights | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@arusbridger: Before giving a state massive surveillance powers probably best to think how, eg, Donald Trump or Marine le Pen wd use them | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Superb BBC correction, after Sir Doug Ellis accused of being "with Hezbollah" instead of "with a Villa scarf": https://t.co/t2HIHY93GO #avfc | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.birminghammail.co.uk | Read the BBC's apology to Sir Doug Ellis after an unfortunate subtitle mix up on Match of the Day - Birmingham Mail | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 06:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: I still have lots of #epo articles coming, but at least the backlog is now of a size I can almost get my head around (alta vista) | Dec 09 06:31 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674568656077111296 | Dec 09 07:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @altalex @altreconomia https://t.co/DuCYjN487o | Dec 09 07:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: EU Commission unveils next steps for #copyright reform, including draft content portability regulation https://t.co/IGNdlix7fo | Dec 09 07:39 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674582224692449281 | Dec 09 08:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/YY8hOj5MzJ | Dec 09 08:35 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zdnet.com | Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects | ZDNet | Dec 09 08:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674583550226776067 | Dec 09 08:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @SleepyPenguin1 Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/PfQpB14vPj | Dec 09 08:43 | |
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| FIFO_ | Hi Roy! Thanks for all reports on eponia. I have noticed that your services were down at several occasions today. Am I wrong? | Dec 09 12:02 |
| <--FIFO_ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) | Dec 09 12:15 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/674600247360794624 | Dec 09 12:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Ah .... but will it have Fins & more shiny stuffffffff - bling! | Dec 09 12:53 | |
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| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 13:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick | Dec 09 13:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick about 4 hours ago | Dec 09 13:50 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 13:50 |
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| msb_ | cubexyz: Hello? | Dec 09 15:23 |
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| msb_ | Yet another call from "Your computer is sending bad signals. Press 1 to talk to a certified microsoft idiot". Foreign accent, didn't know if he was in Las Vegas or Los Angeles. Hung up without trying to get any money from me, again. NoMoRobo didn't catch them, so I reported their number. | Dec 09 18:18 |
| msb_ | What is their racket, anyhow? | Dec 09 18:24 |
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| cubexyz | http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/11/malwarebytes | Dec 09 20:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.wired.co.uk | What happens if you play along with a Microsoft 'tech support' scam? (Wired UK) | Dec 09 20:04 | |
| cubexyz | the racket is to get money from the victim | Dec 09 20:05 |
| cubexyz | get teamviewer on your computer and allow 3rd party control of the victim's computer | Dec 09 20:07 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: sometimes it great fun to have virtual machines. | Dec 09 20:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I remember the main reason for EFI in the first place. MBR has a max harddrive size in BIOS standard of 2TB. | Dec 09 20:20 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically we have out grown what old school BIOS can support. | Dec 09 20:21 |
| cubexyz | EFI was subverted by Microsoft | Dec 09 20:21 |
| oiaohm | Part Microsoft. | Dec 09 20:22 |
| cubexyz | they are using Microsoft data formats | Dec 09 20:22 |
| oiaohm | Some of the MS format usage makes sense. | Dec 09 20:22 |
| oiaohm | fat series of file systems is one of the most OS supported file systems on earth. | Dec 09 20:23 |
| oiaohm | signing comes out of NIST requirements mixed with ODM wanting to be evil so and so and Microsoft seeing the advantage. | Dec 09 20:23 |
| cubexyz | there's lots of McDonald's restaurants, but that doesn't make it a good one | Dec 09 20:23 |
| cubexyz | popular != good | Dec 09 20:24 |
| oiaohm | Case of fat its not exactly good. But there was worse like UDF. | Dec 09 20:24 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I reject using EFI or UEFI | Dec 09 20:25 |
| oiaohm | PE happens to be the best choice out of the COFF class of file formats. | Dec 09 20:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there is 1 area I do have a problem with. Exaclty why CAB for UEFI capsules. Its not the best in it class. | Dec 09 20:28 |
| cubexyz | if you had the old bios source you could keep patching it, it's only because we live in a closed source BIOS world that we can't | Dec 09 20:29 |
| MinceR | these excuses for stuff like [u]efi would be amusing if it wasn't a major offensive against the general purpose computer | Dec 09 20:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios mandates a lot of stupidity. | Dec 09 20:29 |
| cubexyz | it's just code and data, nothing special | Dec 09 20:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios end up running code in SMM to make USB keyboards and mice appear PS/2 | Dec 09 20:29 |
| MinceR | uefi also runs SMM | Dec 09 20:30 |
| MinceR | find another excuse | Dec 09 20:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry a clean UEFI does not have to have any code running in SMM. | Dec 09 20:30 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I'm sure if I spent more time studying things (which I am trying to do) I would find a lot of crufty code | Dec 09 20:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sorry, a clean uefi does not exist on the market. | Dec 09 20:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its not madated as part of UEFI design to have it. | Dec 09 20:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: nobody cares what uefi mandates, all they care about is what m$ mandates. | Dec 09 20:31 |
| cubexyz | so my main objection is the proprietary closed source once again | Dec 09 20:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there are clean UEFI in some Intel class motherboards. | Dec 09 20:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: how many of those were sold? | Dec 09 20:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: 4 and half million to amazon google and facebook. | Dec 09 20:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what percentage is that of total uefi systems sold? | Dec 09 20:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't know percentage they are one of the highly popular server boards because they are stable. | Dec 09 20:32 |
| cubexyz | also what other alternatives to UEFI exist? | Dec 09 20:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not having crap happening hiddne in SMM helps things. | Dec 09 20:32 |
| MinceR | bios, coreboot, u-boot (not on x86, afaik) | Dec 09 20:32 |
| oiaohm | u-boot can be used on x86. | Dec 09 20:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what about crap happening hidden in uefi? | Dec 09 20:32 |
| MinceR | libreboot, if you want to count that separately | Dec 09 20:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: a clean implemtnation of UEFI once the OS is up everything from UEFI is shutdown. | Dec 09 20:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: of course there are a lot of dirty UEFI implementations out there. | Dec 09 20:33 |
| MinceR | like TianoCore? | Dec 09 20:33 |
| MinceR | and why do you pretend nothing matters until the OS is up? | Dec 09 20:33 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore is clean. | Dec 09 20:33 |
| MinceR | TianoCore is bigger than Linux without drivers | Dec 09 20:34 |
| MinceR | why does a boot firmware have to be so huge? | Dec 09 20:34 |
| MinceR | there are uefi implementations so bloated they don't even fit in ROM, they also occupy part of the HDD | Dec 09 20:34 |
| cubexyz | coreboot is better anyway | Dec 09 20:35 |
| MinceR | of course, but oiaohm will never see that | Dec 09 20:35 |
| cubexyz | the other problem is lack of coreboot support | Dec 09 20:35 |
| MinceR | maybe hw manufacturers get off on screwing their customers | Dec 09 20:35 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore has to contain drivers. | Dec 09 20:36 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: starting the hardware to access harddrives and the like means using drivers. | Dec 09 20:36 |
| MinceR | afaik it does not contain drivers | Dec 09 20:38 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/tianocore/tianocore.github.io/wiki/Driver-Developer | Dec 09 20:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | Driver Developer · tianocore/tianocore.github.io Wiki · GitHub [ http://ur1.ca/oc4hk ] | Dec 09 20:38 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: TianoCore does contain some drivers and then provided means to write more. | Dec 09 20:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not OS of some form starts the system. Even old school bios has drivers. | Dec 09 20:41 |
| MinceR | it's still not nearly as bloated as uefi | Dec 09 20:42 |
| oiaohm | coreboot does not support the range of hardware TianoCore does. | Dec 09 20:42 |
| cubexyz | btw coreboot (the one I built) fill into 256K | Dec 09 20:43 |
| cubexyz | of course, it's for an older computer... BX chipset | Dec 09 20:43 |
| cubexyz | s/fill/fit/ | Dec 09 20:43 |
| cubexyz | I'd say that's not too bloated | Dec 09 20:43 |
| cubexyz | that's with seabios added | Dec 09 20:44 |
| cubexyz | the real question is: can you build your own BIOS? | Dec 09 20:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the coreboot you build was without signing right. | Dec 09 20:45 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, that's right | Dec 09 20:45 |
| oiaohm | Adding signing that add on about 256 alone. | Dec 09 20:45 |
| MinceR | will signing protect your box from an attacker that has physical access? | Dec 09 20:45 |
| cubexyz | with the ECS board and BIOS_WP it's not even necessary | Dec 09 20:46 |
| cubexyz | so you want BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 09 20:46 |
| MinceR | it's not necessary in any case | Dec 09 20:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: chromebook signing on coreboot prevents swaping bootloaders. | Dec 09 20:46 |
| MinceR | it's just another case of lock-in with security theater as the excuse | Dec 09 20:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: at least without informating user. | Dec 09 20:46 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's developer mode for that | Dec 09 20:46 |
| MinceR | afaik you can swap bootloaders on chromebook | Dec 09 20:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes but in developer mode you are informed the bootloader could be fake. | Dec 09 20:46 |
| MinceR | https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/ec-development | Dec 09 20:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.chromium.org | Chromium Embedded Controller (EC) Development - The Chromium Projects [ http://ur1.ca/n2hox ] | Dec 09 20:47 | |
| oiaohm | The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 09 20:48 |
| oiaohm | and the means to load drivers as well as loader from FAT. | Dec 09 20:48 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're right, things are very bloated | Dec 09 20:48 |
| MinceR | "A hardware-based mechanism is used to prevent the RO firmware from being changed. The most common design is to have an input grounded by a screw. When the screw is inserted, hardware write protect is enabled. This grounded signal can be read by the host chipset and EC. It is also routed to the “write protect” pin on any SPI flash chips containing firmware." | Dec 09 20:48 |
| oiaohm | And there is a really horible reason for the FAT support. | Dec 09 20:48 |
| MinceR | something the idiots who came up with uefi couldn't think of | Dec 09 20:48 |
| cubexyz | but it's not necessary.... especially if you're running old stuff | Dec 09 20:49 |
| oiaohm | True cubexyz old stuff correct new stuff not so much. | Dec 09 20:49 |
| MinceR | 024822 < oiaohm> The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 09 20:49 |
| cubexyz | we don't have to just lie down an accept everything they throw at us | Dec 09 20:49 |
| MinceR | and what did i say about FAT support... | Dec 09 20:49 |
| MinceR | (also think about whether bios needed that) | Dec 09 20:49 |
| oiaohm | Lot of newer cards don't have firmware chips. | Dec 09 20:49 |
| MinceR | yes, and lots of broken hw comes with uefi | Dec 09 20:50 |
| oiaohm | They are depending on the OS or bios to have thier firmware. | Dec 09 20:50 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 09 20:50 |
| MinceR | people can come up with stupid designs | Dec 09 20:50 |
| oiaohm | Or worse. | Dec 09 20:50 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean it has to be forced on everybody | Dec 09 20:50 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly stupid. | Dec 09 20:50 |
| MinceR | just like cancerd | Dec 09 20:50 |
| MinceR | yeah, forcing winblows or macos on the user is so S-M-R-T | Dec 09 20:51 |
| MinceR | and so's permanently bricking the "computer" | Dec 09 20:51 |
| oiaohm | The reason for drivers in FAT on filesystem from EFI is to allow for something nasty. | Dec 09 20:51 |
| MinceR | yeah, they love nasty things | Dec 09 20:51 |
| oiaohm | Lets say you have a OS driver needing a particular firmware version. | Dec 09 20:51 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I just recently discovered a work-around for Unix v5 dd | Dec 09 20:51 |
| oiaohm | Now you have more than 1 OS installed on that computer. | Dec 09 20:51 |
| cubexyz | the dd from that era had a 65536 byte limit | Dec 09 20:52 |
| cubexyz | I can fix that, since I have the source | Dec 09 20:52 |
| cubexyz | 16-bit int from 1974 :) | Dec 09 20:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the sad reality is EFI fat support comes from EFI including the means to properly boot multi OSs. Of course ODM don't want to have to do support on multi OS and Microsoft does not want users using something not Microsoft. | Dec 09 20:53 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: we already had a reliable method to boot multi OS-es | Dec 09 20:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not in cases of firmware conflit. | Dec 09 20:54 |
| MinceR | and it involved not relying on intel's or m$'s broken code | Dec 09 20:54 |
| MinceR | then don't buy hw with braindead drivers | Dec 09 20:54 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is when the hardware is new the drivers support can look fine. | Dec 09 20:55 |
| oiaohm | Its when an OS is deprecated by vendor does these problem appear. | Dec 09 20:55 |
| cubexyz | what if the manufacuturer disappears? we need the BIOS source for those motherboards too | Dec 09 20:55 |
| MinceR | and even with that bullshit multiboot support users still find themselves relying on bootloaders and trickery | Dec 09 20:55 |
| MinceR | even stubs signed by m$ | Dec 09 20:55 |
| cubexyz | not only the source, but the tools to actually build it | Dec 09 20:56 |
| MinceR | so this is yet another transparent excuse | Dec 09 20:56 |
| cubexyz | otherwise what you have is (un)planned obsolescence | Dec 09 20:56 |
| MinceR | maybe if uefi pushers put as much effort into uefi as they put into the excuses and into depriving users of choice, they would have ended up with a product worth using | Dec 09 20:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a cat fight going on. Multiboot support in working EFI implementations stop the case different OS installs screwing up each other loaders. | Dec 09 20:57 |
| MinceR | but that's not the One Microsoft Way, is it? | Dec 09 20:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but there is a problem of ODM and Microsoft wanting it. | Dec 09 20:58 |
| MinceR | and of course none of this would matter much if antitrust regulations were actually enforced in the USA and in the EU | Dec 09 20:58 |
| oiaohm | Most of the reasoning behind UEFI/EFI is sold. | Dec 09 20:58 |
| oiaohm | sold/solid. | Dec 09 20:59 |
| MinceR | or so you believe | Dec 09 20:59 |
| oiaohm | Like the PK by standard was always to be under the end users control. Of course ODM and Microsoft did not want that. | Dec 09 20:59 |
| oiaohm | Some of the worse of UEFI on users comes from Implementers not wanting to follow standard. | Dec 09 21:00 |
| oiaohm | The secureboot switch was a trick. | Dec 09 21:00 |
| MinceR | the entirety of uefi is a trick | Dec 09 21:00 |
| oiaohm | Standard to turn off secureboot is remove PK. | Dec 09 21:00 |
| MinceR | it's a hoax | Dec 09 21:01 |
| MinceR | it's a scam | Dec 09 21:01 |
| oiaohm | The implementers put the secureboot switch in to hide the fact they were not offering PK removal. | Dec 09 21:01 |
| oiaohm | Now everyone is getting up set because the secureboot switch has disappeared. But what should have been in the first place is now being provided. | Dec 09 21:02 |
| MinceR | people should be upset because they don't get to choose anything other than uefi | Dec 09 21:03 |
| oiaohm | That problem is not secureboot. | Dec 09 21:03 |
| MinceR | even with the switch, uefi is bloated, unreliable garbage | Dec 09 21:03 |
| MinceR | restricted boot is part of the problem | Dec 09 21:04 |
| oiaohm | Please note the swtich added extra code paths. | Dec 09 21:04 |
| MinceR | but uefi is bloated enough to have room for many more problems than that | Dec 09 21:04 |
| oiaohm | That create more of a problem. | Dec 09 21:04 |
| MinceR | please note that even without the switch, uefi was far more bloated than any alternative | Dec 09 21:04 |
| oiaohm | Removing the secureboot switch in fact reduced bloat. | Dec 09 21:04 |
| MinceR | removing restricted boot would also reduce bloat | Dec 09 21:05 |
| MinceR | as you've pointed out a while ago | Dec 09 21:05 |
| MinceR | and it would reduce bloat a lot more than removing the switch would | Dec 09 21:05 |
| oiaohm | Removing switch removed just as much as removing the complete secure boot system. | Dec 09 21:05 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 09 21:05 |
| oiaohm | Intel developer had it I wish I had recorded the link. | Dec 09 21:06 |
| MinceR | then again, with intel/m$ drone skills i can imagine that they could fuck up even such a simple thing as a switch | Dec 09 21:06 |
| MinceR | it's scary to imagine that such retards get to decide what gets into the firmware of our devices | Dec 09 21:06 |
| oiaohm | Deleting the PK is absolute on and off. | Dec 09 21:07 |
| MinceR | poettering-level development skills | Dec 09 21:07 |
| oiaohm | secureboot switch cmos reset it could turn back on. | Dec 09 21:07 |
| MinceR | how difficult is it to have the swith on the UI simply delete the PK or restore it from ROM? | Dec 09 21:07 |
| MinceR | s/ith/itch/ | Dec 09 21:07 |
| oiaohm | The switch end up checking 30+ places to find out if secureboot should on or off. | Dec 09 21:08 |
| MinceR | and whose fault is that? | Dec 09 21:08 |
| oiaohm | Current UEFI to standard they have a simple unenrol PK option and a restore factory option. | Dec 09 21:08 |
| oiaohm | Of course if PK is filled with zeros don't bother execututing the secureboot code. | Dec 09 21:09 |
| MinceR | i prefer the "non-uefi" option | Dec 09 21:09 |
| MinceR | don't even bother including that code | Dec 09 21:09 |
| MinceR | it only serves m$'s purpose | Dec 09 21:09 |
| oiaohm | It is possible to build UEFI without secureboot code. | Dec 09 21:09 |
| MinceR | let them store it and run it on their systems | Dec 09 21:09 |
| MinceR | why do ODMs not do that, then? | Dec 09 21:09 |
| cubexyz | windows 10 certification maybe? | Dec 09 21:10 |
| MinceR | and again, the whole parade of excuses for uefi falls apart | Dec 09 21:11 |
| MinceR | it's all there because m$ is pulling the strings | Dec 09 21:11 |
| cubexyz | I fear so | Dec 09 21:11 |
| oiaohm | but the problem is you cannot inload this into motherboards in most cases now due to ODM writing like Intel Boot Guard public keys into hardware. | Dec 09 21:11 |
| MinceR | just like how none of the fascists could explain why any of the alleged security functionality of TPM needs the endorsement key | Dec 09 21:11 |
| MinceR | (it doesn't, only the DRM functionality needs it, which is the whole point of the TPM) | Dec 09 21:11 |
| MinceR | yes, intel boot guard is another part of the problem | Dec 09 21:12 |
| oiaohm | NIST is demarding TPM be socketed on to motherboard. | Dec 09 21:12 |
| oiaohm | So you can physically pull the bastard off. | Dec 09 21:12 |
| MinceR | i demand the NIST be shut down | Dec 09 21:13 |
| MinceR | haven't they done enough damage already? | Dec 09 21:13 |
| MinceR | we've had the technology that already does all the defensible functionality of the TPM for ages | Dec 09 21:14 |
| MinceR | it's called a smart card | Dec 09 21:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: before NIST demard TPM chips were being soldered on to motherboard. | Dec 09 21:14 |
| MinceR | so stop putting clipper chips on the mainboards and start using smartcards. | Dec 09 21:14 |
| oiaohm | With the possiblatiy of being embedded into the chipset. | Dec 09 21:14 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: before TPM, smartcards existed. | Dec 09 21:14 |
| MinceR | and before uefi, bios existed | Dec 09 21:15 |
| MinceR | and before systemd, unix existed | Dec 09 21:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST demard takes TPM back to being like a smartcard security. | Dec 09 21:15 |
| MinceR | and before hypePhones, real smartphones running open platforms existed | Dec 09 21:15 |
| MinceR | and before the w3c sold out, the open web existed | Dec 09 21:16 |
| MinceR | see where i'm going with this? | Dec 09 21:16 |
| oiaohm | Really we need NIST or China equal or EU equal to make the same demard over items like boot guard. | Dec 09 21:16 |
| cubexyz | the open web still exists | Dec 09 21:16 |
| cubexyz | e.g. archive.org | Dec 09 21:16 |
| MinceR | not for long, if w3c and its owners get their way | Dec 09 21:17 |
| oiaohm | Like the EU regulartor could step in and address some of these problems. | Dec 09 21:17 |
| MinceR | not for long with all this html5 hype going around and swallowed | Dec 09 21:17 |
| MinceR | when has the EU ever done anything substantial to protect its members/citizens' interests? | Dec 09 21:17 |
| MinceR | (no, forcing windows xp n edition to be offered was not it) | Dec 09 21:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, letting vista10 get away with forcing ie to be the default browser was not it either) | Dec 09 21:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, their ongoing support for the orban regime isn't it, either) | Dec 09 21:18 |
| oiaohm | EU forcing charges on phones not to keep on using different plugs. EU support of Samba to protect it against Microsoft possible patent attacks. | Dec 09 21:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Of coruse like all regulators not everything they try is the right thing. | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | cubexyz: Regarding the FPGA 11/70: | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | Are FPGAs reprogrammable? | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | Is there X for Unix 5? | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | Can the 11/70 sim use an X86 on the bus for floating point? | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | Can it use large disk partitions -- 1 TB? | Dec 09 21:19 |
| msb_ | How does the integer speed compare with an 8-core AMD? | Dec 09 21:19 |
| MinceR | neither of those are substantial | Dec 09 21:19 |
| MinceR | in the face of assaults like uefi and intel boot guard, those gestures are laughable. | Dec 09 21:20 |
| MinceR | regulators have failed | Dec 09 21:20 |
| MinceR | and human society is failing | Dec 09 21:20 |
| oiaohm | regulators are reactive not proactive most of the time. | Dec 09 21:20 |
| MinceR | yes, and they mostly only react to bribes | Dec 09 21:21 |
| oiaohm | Like the phone chargers at worst point there was over 5000 differnet plugs in use todo something as simple as charge a phone. | Dec 09 21:21 |
| MinceR | and crApple still uses nonstandard plugs | Dec 09 21:22 |
| MinceR | and the EU isn't doing jack shit about that | Dec 09 21:22 |
| MinceR | also, standardizing the plugs doesn't help if warranty only holds if you use the charger supplied by the manufacturer of the device in the first place | Dec 09 21:23 |
| MinceR | you still get to keep all your power bricks | Dec 09 21:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-will-be-forced-to-use-micro-usb-chargers-by-2017-1587862/ | Dec 09 21:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Apple will be forced to use micro USB chargers by 2017 | Apple | Geek.com | Dec 09 21:23 | |
| MinceR | only this time it's even more difficult to keep track of which one is supposed to go with which device | Dec 09 21:23 |
| MinceR | ooh, 2017 | Dec 09 21:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be humans by then? | Dec 09 21:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be an EU by then? | Dec 09 21:23 |
| oiaohm | Please note what I said about regulators being reactive not proactive. | Dec 09 21:23 |
| oiaohm | Apple is the last hold out not to go unified format. | Dec 09 21:24 |
| oiaohm | I would love to see Apple users if the EU makes it offence to have a phone without USB changing. | Dec 09 21:24 |
| MinceR | and yet i have yet to see crApple being punished for shitting on EU law | Dec 09 21:24 |
| oiaohm | Its not like Apple was not given enough time to be conforming. | Dec 09 21:25 |
| MinceR | then again, if orban and his buddies are of any indication, the EU is run by crApple fanboys | Dec 09 21:25 |
| MinceR | so crApple will get away with it forever | Dec 09 21:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: laws are also reactive not proactive normally due to legal constructs requiring a delay before being applied. | Dec 09 21:25 |
| MinceR | at least in the EPP, showing off wealth and belonging to the cult by spending taxpayer's money on crApple crap is the hip thing | Dec 09 21:26 |
| oiaohm | Apple plan to avoid usb port on their device is to be wireless by 2017 | Dec 09 21:26 |
| MinceR | they could sell inert blocks of glass | Dec 09 21:27 |
| MinceR | that way they won't need power or communication | Dec 09 21:27 |
| MinceR | and the fanboys will still love it as long as it comes from crApple | Dec 09 21:27 |
| oiaohm | Like the one where Apple is selling a warntary that they are legally required to provide free of charge by law in the EU. | Dec 09 21:28 |
| oiaohm | http://www.geek.com/apple/belgium-isps-may-be-forced-to-block-access-to-apples-website-and-services-1586697/ | Dec 09 21:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Belgium ISPs may be forced to block access to Apple’s website and services | Apple | Geek.com [ http://ur1.ca/oc4ks ] | Dec 09 21:29 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I would prefer that we don't need to use the regulators to deal with these problems. But I don't see Microsoft Apple or ODM behaving without at least 1 of the regulators mandating proper rights to consumers. | Dec 09 21:30 |
| MinceR | i don't see how these problems will be solved, with or without regulators | Dec 09 21:32 |
| MinceR | at least as long as the regulators are in the pockets of those whom they're supposed to regulate | Dec 09 21:32 |
| msb_ | Apple's website should be blocked until it restores those pictures (or was it a _video_) of the naked guy in bed having sex with the expensive cylindrical Mac. | Dec 09 21:35 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 09 21:35 |
| MinceR | the ButtPlug Pro? | Dec 09 21:35 |
| msb_ | Damn I wish I had saved that! | Dec 09 21:35 |
| msb_ | Sounds about right. | Dec 09 21:35 |
| cubexyz | you guys don't buy any apple stuff anyway :) | Dec 09 21:35 |
| MinceR | has archive.org saved it? | Dec 09 21:35 |
| cubexyz | I'm positive MinceR doesn't at least | Dec 09 21:35 |
| MinceR | and you're right | Dec 09 21:36 |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 09 21:40 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the regulators have improved EFI/UEFI to where it was going. If the regulartors had not go involved by now the TPM chip would either been in the CPU or Chipset. And we would still have the case were new secureboot motherboard that you cannot truly turn it off so you turn it off and at some random point in the future it turns back on. | Dec 09 21:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically mandating PK removal means when you do turn secureboot off it stays off. | Dec 09 21:48 |
| MinceR | well, they haven't done a good job | Dec 09 21:49 |
| MinceR | [u]efi is still worse than nothing | Dec 09 21:49 |
| MinceR | and i doubt you get to buy a business-class laptop without a TPM | Dec 09 21:49 |
| MinceR | or even without paying those responsible for its proliferation | Dec 09 21:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even current day business class laptops have removable TPM chips due to NIST demard | Dec 09 21:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: older laptops the TPM chip is soldered on. | Dec 09 21:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the NIST demard includes that the system must boot with the TPM chip removed. | Dec 09 21:52 |
| MinceR | yes, but accessing the socket voids your warranty | Dec 09 21:53 |
| MinceR | and even if you've bought it and removed it, you've paid for the TPM | Dec 09 21:54 |
| oiaohm | In fact no. | Dec 09 21:54 |
| MinceR | thus rewarding its perpetrators for distorting the market | Dec 09 21:54 |
| oiaohm | Part of NIST demard is that warranty cannot be voided because the TPM has been removed. | Dec 09 21:54 |
| MinceR | indeed it won't be | Dec 09 21:54 |
| MinceR | it will be voided because you opened up the compartment to access it. | Dec 09 21:54 |
| MinceR | or because you removed or damaged a sticker on a screw. | Dec 09 21:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the demard covers all that. | Dec 09 21:55 |
| MinceR | do i get refunded if i return the TPM? | Dec 09 21:56 |
| oiaohm | Now if you insert a new TPM then they can void you warntanty. | Dec 09 21:56 |
| oiaohm | Unfortunately NIST did not demard that you can return TPM chip for refund. | Dec 09 21:56 |
| MinceR | see, again they carefully avoided doing anything that matters | Dec 09 21:57 |
| oiaohm | NIST declared removing TPM as part of basic diagnostics like removing the battery. | Dec 09 21:57 |
| oiaohm | Good part about NIST rulings is they are in breach if they don't follow the ruling anywhere on earth to anyone. | Dec 09 21:59 |
| oiaohm | Its also the bad part. | Dec 09 21:59 |
| oiaohm | As that makes NIST a huge sledge hammer. | Dec 09 22:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically a sledge hammer to put in a thumb tack and wondering why you have a hole in wall. | Dec 09 22:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: now if NIST ruled that we were allowed to replace motherboard firmware with out choosing as diagnostics on general PC hardware it would be great. | Dec 09 22:02 |
| oiaohm | out/our | Dec 09 22:02 |
| msb_ | NIST also put out lots of false data to cover up the role of the US govt in blowing up the World Trade Center in 9/2001. | Dec 09 22:03 |
| cubexyz | without good electronics knowledge of the motherboard chipsets you would never be able to write your own BIOS | Dec 09 22:03 |
| cubexyz | it would take years to learn it all | Dec 09 22:03 |
| oiaohm | msb_: check again you have the wrong group | Dec 09 22:04 |
| oiaohm | msb_: I know they start with N | Dec 09 22:04 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Sorry for disturbing your ignorance. | Dec 09 22:04 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: "sure you can, it just won't boot!" | Dec 09 22:05 |
| oiaohm | msb_: National Institute of Standards and Technology. When it comes to building being destroyed it not their deparment. | Dec 09 22:06 |
| cubexyz | it's not just NIST for motherboards either | Dec 09 22:08 |
| cubexyz | there's the IEC and other ones | Dec 09 22:08 |
| cubexyz | IPC, JIS, probably other ones we don't even know about | Dec 09 22:09 |
| msb_ | http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/ | Dec 09 22:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | WTC Disaster Study | Dec 09 22:09 | |
| msb_ | http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/nist/index.html | Dec 09 22:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.911research.wtc7.net | 9-11 Research: The NIST Investigation | Dec 09 22:09 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/ncst/index.cfm Its a different N msb_ | Dec 09 22:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | National Construction Safety Team (NCST) Advisory Committee [ http://ur1.ca/oc4m2 ] | Dec 09 22:11 | |
| msb_ | oiaohm: NCST is a subdivision of NIST. In the field of 9/11 research, the reports are known as NIST reports. | Dec 09 22:17 |
| oiaohm | msb_: check into how NCST members are appointed. | Dec 09 22:17 |
| oiaohm | The many body NIST has no control over it. | Dec 09 22:17 |
| msb_ | Why, nitpicker? | Dec 09 22:18 |
| oiaohm | It be correct it is important. | Dec 09 22:18 |
| oiaohm | NCST being formed is extrealy odd. | Dec 09 22:18 |
| oiaohm | msb_: FEMA is the offical USA department for building falures. NIST job with building is todo simulations and testing not investagation. | Dec 09 22:20 |
| msb_ | Maybe to put another layer on the coverup. | Dec 09 22:20 |
| oiaohm | There is also a USA mil group that specialised in demolistions who could have written a report but did not. | Dec 09 22:21 |
| oiaohm | Please note the date NCST comes into existance October 2002 | Dec 09 22:23 |
| oiaohm | msb_: so NCST first case ever was investaging Sep 11. This is putting a bunch of newbies on the job then wondering why they come up with garbage. | Dec 09 22:25 |
| MinceR | what's their excuse for their failures around uefi? were those done by newbies too? | Dec 09 22:29 |
| msb_ | Some of the best 9/11 research info in existence: http://cosmicpenguin.com/#911 | Dec 09 22:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-cosmicpenguin.com | Human Society That Works For Everyone | Dec 09 22:29 | |
| oiaohm | msb_: there are list of parties you could expect to see proper reports from. Federal Aviation Administration, FEMA, Insurance, United States Department of Defense sub department Army Corps of Engineers | Dec 09 22:29 |
| oiaohm | msb_: NCST was fairly much a poltical created thing to political poeple could look like they were doing something. | Dec 09 22:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST job is not mostly not to create stuff but do research and write standards. When you have NIST doing stuff they are not set todo by political force like NCST and 9/11 investantion they balls it up every single time. | Dec 09 22:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you think UEFI is bad be thankful NIST did not decide to code it themselves. | Dec 09 22:34 |
| oiaohm | msb_: the thing that is very odd about Sep 11 is the fact there is no Army Corps of Engineers report that is findable. | Dec 09 22:36 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674781057384890368 | Dec 09 22:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I'm a little confused by Microsoft hosting? I recently dumped Windows myself. | Dec 09 22:36 | |
| oiaohm | msb_: for every embency bombs there is one. | Dec 09 22:36 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't see how it could be worse | Dec 09 22:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist has attempted to implement code for stuff in the past and it contained 40 buffer overflow faults in 4kb of binary. | Dec 09 22:39 |
| MinceR | how do you know TianoCore doesn't? | Dec 09 22:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically loto booting if the system booted at all if NIST had done it. | Dec 09 22:40 |
| MinceR | same thing | Dec 09 22:40 |
| MinceR | can NIST muster stupider code monkeys than m$ (or intel with m$ brainwashing)? | Dec 09 22:40 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore is fairly well audited. | Dec 09 22:40 |
| MinceR | by whom? | Dec 09 22:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes NIST can muster the worst code monkeys on earth. | Dec 09 22:41 |
| cubexyz | it's all about control | Dec 09 22:41 |
| MinceR | yup | Dec 09 22:41 |
| cubexyz | as in, you the computer user don't have any :) | Dec 09 22:41 |
| MinceR | exactly | Dec 09 22:41 |
| MinceR | but apparently that's exactly what some users want | Dec 09 22:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: TainoCore stuff is thrid party checked by coverity for USA mil requirements and a few other groups of other countries. | Dec 09 22:42 |
| oiaohm | NIST history with their code they would not bother doing that. | Dec 09 22:42 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you don't ask NIST to code anything if you want it to work. | Dec 09 22:43 |
| -->WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 09 22:43 | |
| MinceR | checked, and then what? | Dec 09 22:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: bug reported opened and fixed as well | Dec 09 22:43 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't ask m$ or m$-brainwashed people to code anything either. | Dec 09 22:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you can find evidence of TainoCore auditing in the bugreports and fixes. | Dec 09 22:44 |
| oiaohm | Note I said fairly well audited. Not perfectly audited. | Dec 09 22:44 |
| oiaohm | So there is still a lot of room for improvement with TainoCore quality controls. | Dec 09 22:45 |
| MinceR | especially considering that such automated tools won't check the design | Dec 09 22:46 |
| oiaohm | 100 percent stupid things like straight up buffer overflows automated tools don't let slide. | Dec 09 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Perfect auditing process is mathematically proven secure stuff. Expensive and time consuming to produce. | Dec 09 22:48 |
| MinceR | and they aren't interested in that anyway | Dec 09 22:48 |
| MinceR | what they're interested in is locking consumers into OSes full of security holes and backdoors, the better to surveil and oppress them | Dec 09 22:49 |
| oiaohm | mathematically secure would most likely take 5 to 6 years to have all the required testing framework in place with a team of 40 working around the clock. | Dec 09 22:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when I say Expensive and time consuming I really do mean it. | Dec 09 22:50 |
| MinceR | and a few millennia to build computer systems powerful enough to deal with TianoCore-level of bloat | Dec 09 22:50 |
| MinceR | iirc time required to analyze grows exponentially with code complexity | Dec 09 22:50 |
| oiaohm | Please note I said 5 to 6 years to get the required testing framework in place not how long it would take to run the testing framework. | Dec 09 22:52 |
| oiaohm | Even old school bios chips never were mathmatically secure. | Dec 09 22:52 |
| MinceR | at least they weren't pathologically overcomplicated | Dec 09 22:52 |
| cubexyz | KISS Principle | Dec 09 22:53 |
| MinceR | and there weren't nearly as many hoops to jump through to get your OS to boot | Dec 09 22:53 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: don't expect a uefi/cancerd apologist to understand that | Dec 09 22:53 |
| oiaohm | To be truthful xt were simple. | Dec 09 22:53 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but modern day CPU and chipsets are not simple. | Dec 09 22:53 |
| MinceR | and yet booting an OS is still easy to do on them, if they have BIOS | Dec 09 22:54 |
| MinceR | put your code in the MBR, it gets loaded and run | Dec 09 22:54 |
| cubexyz | in XT era it was still hard to upgrade the BIOS, even though it was simple | Dec 09 22:54 |
| cubexyz | EEPROMs? I think | Dec 09 22:54 |
| oiaohm | EFI without secureboot is straight forwards MinceR. Place loader in directory in boot partition. | Dec 09 22:54 |
| MinceR | i think EPROMs | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | (the ones with the quartz window under the sticker | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | ) | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: far from it | Dec 09 22:55 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, maybe just ROM chips | Dec 09 22:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have made a loader to play tetris in EFI. | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: see, that's the sort of thing EFI shouldn't focus on | Dec 09 22:55 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: or those | Dec 09 22:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have also made a Loader ot pay tetris from MBR. | Dec 09 22:56 |
| oiaohm | EFI one was cleaner. | Dec 09 22:56 |
| cubexyz | on Amiga 500 you got a ROM chip kit for upgrades | Dec 09 22:56 |
| oiaohm | At least I was not hidding sections of the program in hopefully unused sectors. | Dec 09 22:56 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if there are multiple loaders in that directory, which one gets run? | Dec 09 22:56 |
| MinceR | the MBR is not "hopefully unused" | Dec 09 22:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: between MBR and first sector of first partition there were unsed sectors/sometimes used sectors by different loaders and items that went into MBR. | Dec 09 22:57 |
| MinceR | and your primary loader can't fit in the MBR? | Dec 09 22:58 |
| MinceR | perhaps it shouldn't be trying to do so much | Dec 09 22:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when its a 400 level game with changing graphics it kinda does not fit. | Dec 09 22:58 |
| MinceR | the MBR is not for 400 level games with changing graphics. | Dec 09 22:59 |
| cubexyz | BIOS should be simple... inititialize chips and boot main OS | Dec 09 22:59 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: each loader in EFI goes per directory and setting choosed default. | Dec 09 22:59 |
| MinceR | games are not loaders. | Dec 09 22:59 |
| MinceR | the environment for running loaders should not be designed for running games. | Dec 09 23:00 |
| cubexyz | actually the Amiga did that too | Dec 09 23:00 |
| oiaohm | The game executable code fitted in 512 of the MBR. | Dec 09 23:00 |
| MinceR | especially not if it leads to a landfill-load of bloat like TianoCore. | Dec 09 23:00 |
| cubexyz | splash screen comes up, then the rest of the game loads | Dec 09 23:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it was the graphics that was the problem. | Dec 09 23:00 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter | Dec 09 23:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it was a loader. | Dec 09 23:01 |
| MinceR | if the whole thing doesn't fit in the MBR, put it elsewhere and put something in the MBR that loads that. | Dec 09 23:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: just not loading an OS. | Dec 09 23:01 |
| MinceR | you could even use a filesystem of your choice, put the data in a file and then put its logical address in the MBR and have that code load the file | Dec 09 23:01 |
| MinceR | without knowing the filesystem | Dec 09 23:01 |
| MinceR | or you could reserve a partition for it and point the code in the MBR at that. | Dec 09 23:02 |
| cubexyz | seabios would fit into 128K and the rest of coreboot would fit into another 128K making a 256K image | Dec 09 23:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: EFI is just simpler because you put all the loader stuff in 1 file and the firmware takes care of getting it into ram. | Dec 09 23:03 |
| oiaohm | No need to do individual hacks and work arounds. | Dec 09 23:04 |
| cubexyz | check it out: | Dec 09 23:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/gigabyte-coreboot-sample.rom | Dec 09 23:04 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: again, confusing 'how much the user has to do in a particular use case' with simplicity of design | Dec 09 23:05 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: also, the CPU not knowing what partitioning schemes or filesystems look like is not a "hack" or a "workaround", it's proper, flexible design | Dec 09 23:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there have been issues of differnet loaders from different OS butting heads reading from file systems. | Dec 09 23:05 |
| MinceR | if it did, you could not change either | Dec 09 23:05 |
| MinceR | just like how uefi forces you to use FAT, PE and CAB. | Dec 09 23:06 |
| oiaohm | Before EFI. | Dec 09 23:06 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: never happened to me | Dec 09 23:06 |
| cubexyz | the splash screen was about 16K | Dec 09 23:07 |
| oiaohm | To be correct I have used EFI to install 3 different Linux systems on same harddrive with there own versions of grub. | Dec 09 23:07 |
| cubexyz | and there's still a fair amount of unused space in there | Dec 09 23:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically there are things bout EFI that are nice about a file system been choosen to store loaders instead of a single sector. | Dec 09 23:08 |
| cubexyz | one can use qemu to run coreboot on emulated hardware | Dec 09 23:08 |
| MinceR | there's still 1 grub that gets started | Dec 09 23:08 |
| MinceR | and you can chainload the others if you want | Dec 09 23:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: forcing you to use a particular partitioning scheme and filesystem? yeah, so nice | Dec 09 23:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: locking you into a particular implementation for loading a file from the filesystem you can't fix bugs in? that's very nice too | Dec 09 23:09 |
| MinceR | the whole point for getting the firmware loader simple was to avoid bugs and offload as much work as possible to stuff you can change later | Dec 09 23:09 |
| MinceR | s/for/of/ | Dec 09 23:09 |
| oiaohm | With old bios we already had cases to install updates in some of them of having to use fat formated USB keys to their standard. | Dec 09 23:10 |
| MinceR | "bioses got some things wrong so let's got those things wrong everywhere!" | Dec 09 23:10 |
| cubexyz | you can build coreboot without any of that | Dec 09 23:10 |
| MinceR | the uefi design philosophy is really sound, as you can see. | Dec 09 23:10 |
| oiaohm | coreboot supports a loader partition mode as well. | Dec 09 23:10 |
| MinceR | s/got t/get t/ | Dec 09 23:10 |
| MinceR | actually, "some bioses got some things wrong so let's get those things wrong everywhere, and call it 'standard'!" | Dec 09 23:11 |
| oiaohm | coreboot support using a ext2/ext3 partition to store loaders. | Dec 09 23:11 |
| MinceR | just like cancerd's "winblows got these things wrong so let's break them in */linux and force the brokenness on everybody!" | Dec 09 23:12 |
| MinceR | at least it isn't FAT. | Dec 09 23:12 |
| cubexyz | the BIOS doesn't need to know about FAT | Dec 09 23:12 |
| oiaohm | coreboot was really the first to support storing hardware drivers in a partition on harddrive. | Dec 09 23:12 |
| cubexyz | well, ok maybe seabios does, I'm not sure | Dec 09 23:12 |
| oiaohm | coreboot is more optional than EFI design. | Dec 09 23:13 |
| MinceR | well, obviously | Dec 09 23:13 |
| MinceR | the whole point of efi is to eliminate options | Dec 09 23:13 |
| cubexyz | I don't see anything related to FAT in seabios though | Dec 09 23:13 |
| MinceR | take away all control from the user | Dec 09 23:13 |
| cubexyz | don't forget one can do all sorts of BIOS experimenting with qemu | Dec 09 23:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: seabios has an option of self firmware updating. If you add that then it has a fat driver to read usb keys. | Dec 09 23:14 |
| cubexyz | you can even run linux distros on an emulated qemu machine | Dec 09 23:14 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what could possibly go wrong? | Dec 09 23:15 |
| cubexyz | or xenix, or msdos, or a ton of other things | Dec 09 23:15 |
| cubexyz | even minix | Dec 09 23:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the attempts to be OS netural in BIOS updating have resulted in a lot of things going wrong. | Dec 09 23:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: including fat drivers in BIOS images. | Dec 09 23:16 |
| cubexyz | BIOS should be OS-neutral | Dec 09 23:16 |
| cubexyz | what do you want, a winBIOS? | Dec 09 23:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: worse fat drivers that see a long file name lock up. | Dec 09 23:16 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: that's what uefi people want, yes | Dec 09 23:17 |
| oiaohm | Remember before UEFI Microsoft had patents on reading long filenames so BIOS updating software embedded in BIOS did not include that functionality. | Dec 09 23:17 |
| MinceR | firmware written by people who believe there's only winblows, only will be winblows, only winblows is possible, and the user must be forced to only ever use winblows | Dec 09 23:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: see, this is yet another reason why using m$ formats is retarded | Dec 09 23:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: why was fat choosen and its not because it Microsoft. | Dec 09 23:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it is in fact the size of code you need to read it. | Dec 09 23:18 |
| MinceR | because the people involved are idiots | Dec 09 23:19 |
| MinceR | once again, bios manages to work without knowing any filesystem | Dec 09 23:19 |
| oiaohm | Out of the majority of filesystems out there Fat requires some of the smallest code to read. | Dec 09 23:19 |
| MinceR | if a supposed replacement can't do that then it's not a good replacement | Dec 09 23:19 |
| MinceR | >majority | Dec 09 23:19 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter | Dec 09 23:19 |
| MinceR | and even if there were _no_ filesystems requiring less code to read, one could be developed | Dec 09 23:19 |
| oiaohm | There is only 1 or 2 that are better but those are equally pain in ass. | Dec 09 23:20 |
| MinceR | oh really? | Dec 09 23:20 |
| MinceR | which of them are encumbered by m$ patents? | Dec 09 23:20 |
| oiaohm | None of them are encumbeded by m$ patents but none of the are read/write. yes read only filesystems. | Dec 09 23:20 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 09 23:21 |
| cubexyz | people could have used CP/M on the IBM PC | Dec 09 23:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: tar as a file system straight on a disc was an option. | Dec 09 23:21 |
| cubexyz | some did | Dec 09 23:21 |
| MinceR | well, they did | Dec 09 23:21 |
| MinceR | just stolen code that was crapped all over | Dec 09 23:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: probably ar also | Dec 09 23:22 |
| MinceR | maybe even cpio | Dec 09 23:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: reading tar takes less than fat. | Dec 09 23:22 |
| oiaohm | cpio takes more. | Dec 09 23:22 |
| oiaohm | Please note tar without compression. | Dec 09 23:22 |
| MinceR | tar does not compress, afaik | Dec 09 23:22 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, PDP-11 doesn't even have a BIOS, and it managed just fine | Dec 09 23:22 |
| MinceR | heresy! :> | Dec 09 23:23 |
| cubexyz | so this wintel dependence... it's not good | Dec 09 23:23 |
| oiaohm | tar depending on version can compression files inside it by setting the compress bit flag. | Dec 09 23:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem is the compress bit does not tell you want compression. | Dec 09 23:23 |
| MinceR | weird | Dec 09 23:23 |
| MinceR | nobody uses it, though | Dec 09 23:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have found the odd tar file with compression bit set. | Dec 09 23:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: those are pains in ass. | Dec 09 23:25 |
| MinceR | do you have a tar that supports it? | Dec 09 23:25 |
| oiaohm | The problem is it from the filesystem. | Dec 09 23:26 |
| oiaohm | Unix file system support a compression flag. | Dec 09 23:26 |
| oiaohm | If the file is compressed when tar sees it the thing just stores it. | Dec 09 23:26 |
| MinceR | isn't that transparent to filesystem users? | Dec 09 23:26 |
| cubexyz | doesn't everyone just use the z and j flags? | Dec 09 23:27 |
| cubexyz | I know I do | Dec 09 23:27 |
| MinceR | apparently not | Dec 09 23:27 |
| MinceR | though i suspect those files are relics | Dec 09 23:27 |
| cubexyz | in the olden days there was just ar | Dec 09 23:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when tar is running in backup mode transparent decompression on some of theses old unixs are off. | Dec 09 23:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so it fairly much what beep of a system did this tar file come from. | Dec 09 23:28 |
| cubexyz | very old tar didn't have compression | Dec 09 23:28 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: very old tar does this. It stores the file flags and if the file was compress heven help you. | Dec 09 23:28 |
| oiaohm | Tar does not promisse when it stores a file that it will make sure its uncompressed first. | Dec 09 23:29 |
| cubexyz | compress came later | Dec 09 23:29 |
| cubexyz | in Unix v7 there's no compression | Dec 09 23:29 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674798284830056448 | Dec 09 23:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 09 23:30 | |
| cubexyz | you have to be more specific | Dec 09 23:30 |
| schestowitz | "What confusing is how are they even able to enforce it on US soil? Seems like international law violation." | Dec 09 23:30 |
| cubexyz | and compress itself is a johnny-come-lately | Dec 09 23:34 |
| cubexyz | like 4.3BSD era | Dec 09 23:34 |
| cubexyz | then we had the whole LZW algorithm with "patent pending" | Dec 09 23:36 |
| cubexyz | there's no universal archiver either | Dec 09 23:38 |
| cubexyz | only specific data formats for different eras in time | Dec 09 23:39 |
| MinceR | there's a Unified Extensible Firmware Interface, though | Dec 09 23:39 |
| cubexyz | I guess ASCII is the closest thing to a universally understood format | Dec 09 23:39 |
| MinceR | it will boot any OS you want, as long as it's windows. | Dec 09 23:40 |
| MinceR | there's also a Universal Operating System | Dec 09 23:40 |
| MinceR | it will run anything you want as pid1, as long as it's systemd. | Dec 09 23:40 |
| cubexyz | what universally archiving system is there really? | Dec 09 23:43 |
| cubexyz | printouts? | Dec 09 23:43 |
| MinceR | stone inscriptions | Dec 09 23:45 |
| MinceR | monoliths, pyramids | Dec 09 23:46 |
| MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | Dec 09 23:46 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Dec 09 23:53 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 09 23:53 |
| schestowitz | > We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completed | Dec 09 23:53 |
| schestowitz | > the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confident | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware. | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard to | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone. | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future. | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | > All the best, | Dec 09 23:54 |
| schestowitz | We might have a Qubes interview coming... | Dec 09 23:54 |
| <--WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has left #techrights ("this sucks ima go..") | Dec 10 00:03 | |
| cubexyz | lol EULA: | Dec 10 00:08 |
| cubexyz | EULA : Exercising Unique Lawyer Arguments to shirk any and every responsibility and/or liability | Dec 10 00:08 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 10 00:10 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674820283182817281 | Dec 10 00:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @EconomistRadio @schestowitz Sure but doesn't do Snowden any good.:/ | Dec 10 00:24 | |
| schestowitz | There will be massive protests today in Munich and it would be useful to show poliicians' support for these | Dec 10 00:35 |
| schestowitz | (EPO) | Dec 10 00:35 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674828200531374080 | Dec 10 00:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz What is openssh? Using a cloud just seems awfully ignorant. | Dec 10 00:50 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started. Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives. Yes we have to change away from old school MBR and BIOS because new items had outgrown them. Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in even a 4kb MBR. | Dec 10 00:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR and cubexyz that does not say UEFI could not be improved or replaced with some better. | Dec 10 00:56 |
| cubexyz | can't you just partition the drive? | Dec 10 00:59 |
| cubexyz | the whole MBR thing was from MSDOS | Dec 10 01:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: kinda not. MBR if sector size is 512 max drive size is 2TB if sector size is 2KB max drive size is 8TB. | Dec 10 01:03 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: reading and processing MBR was built into standard PC BIOS. | Dec 10 01:03 |
| cubexyz | you're thinking wholly in Microsoftian terms | Dec 10 01:04 |
| cubexyz | althought I'm not sure what other alternatives exist | Dec 10 01:05 |
| cubexyz | wasn't there syslinux and extlinux? | Dec 10 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel support a large number of platforms different options to MBR. | Dec 10 01:06 |
| oiaohm | Most screwed up around 2TB | Dec 10 01:06 |
| oiaohm | This is why around EFI this was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table developed. | Dec 10 01:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | GUID Partition Table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 10 01:06 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: section of PC bios interpert calls depend on number of sectors on drive to stay under particular limit values. Basically 512 sector size bios interpts can only address a 2TB drive. | Dec 10 01:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: to use the drivers embedded behind PC Bios your drive size is crippled. Solutions like corebios directly loading Linux and other OS and UEFI/EFI loaders allows you to use firmware provided drivers to access larger harddrives. | Dec 10 01:12 |
| cubexyz | there's the 32-bit sector limit | Dec 10 01:19 |
| cubexyz | of course, I haven't hit that limit myself | Dec 10 01:20 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://stanislavs.org/helppc/int_13.html this is the problem interpert. | Dec 10 01:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stanislavs.org | int 13 | Dec 10 01:21 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: modern harddrive design and controls have a 128bit sector limit. | Dec 10 01:21 |
| cubexyz | I think my largest drive is an 80 gig | Dec 10 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Basically hardware has evolved to be larger than PC BIOS is designed to cope with. | Dec 10 01:22 |
| cubexyz | I assume the CSM can handle large drives? | Dec 10 01:23 |
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| cubexyz | if you don't use UEFI there must be an alternative | Dec 10 01:24 |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 10 01:24 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: bad news if you mean UEFI Compatibility Support Module the CSM module alone does not promise the larger drive size support. | Dec 10 01:25 |
| cubexyz | also Linux has the nogpt boot argument | Dec 10 01:25 |
| oiaohm | The way to run old OS on new super huge harddrives would be to UEFI load a hypervisor like Xen and have it break the huge drive up into make fake smaller drives. | Dec 10 01:26 |
| cubexyz | this seems very short sighted | Dec 10 01:30 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is a horrible one. gpt drive has a wrapper MBR. Due to the MBR not being the full size of the drive some PC BIOSs throw temper tantruim and refuse to boot because MBR has to be invalid. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so the nogpt flag is required for that old hardware. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| cubexyz | right, but it can work | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | Yes a lot of that old hardware will not boot if you put a large new drive in them. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| cubexyz | I'll try it sometime :) | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Unless you tell the drive to lie to be smaller. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | So you have to be mode switching your drives and hopefully never screw it up. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically like it or not we have to leave PC BIOS behind at some point. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| oiaohm | Most likely we have used PC BIOS well past it use by date. | Dec 10 01:34 |
| cubexyz | not to mention my old boards have IDE | Dec 10 01:35 |
| <--amarsh04_ has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 10 01:37 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that I understand the fact that I cannot say on PC BIOS why I am more focused on pushing stuff to make UEFI workable. | Dec 10 01:39 |
| oiaohm | say/stay | Dec 10 01:40 |
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| cubexyz | syslinux v4 has support for old bios | Dec 10 01:45 |
| cubexyz | I figured someone would address the problem | Dec 10 01:46 |
| cubexyz | so the question becomes 'which distros use syslinux >= 4 | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | from an hardware point of view it gets problem. Having to report 1 size so bios works then another size so OS can access complete drive just opens up doors to trouble. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| cubexyz | how about a card that soups up your old bios? | Dec 10 01:51 |
| cubexyz | or just use some SSD to IDE thing | Dec 10 01:52 |
| cubexyz | there's always some answer to these types of problems | Dec 10 01:53 |
| cubexyz | remember Seagate DiskWizard? | Dec 10 01:56 |
| cubexyz | perhaps there is a linux version | Dec 10 01:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: those wizard were about making stuff lie. | Dec 10 02:10 |
| oiaohm | And of course you would run into cases where it did not stop lieing after the OS was loaded. | Dec 10 02:10 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically best solution fix the firmware so it can cope with it properly. | Dec 10 02:11 |
| oiaohm | http://techreport.com/news/29410/dell-toshiba-and-lenovo-utilities-expose-pcs-to-more-attacks This makes me wonder with history like this can we really trust ODM to be in charge of firmware. | Dec 10 05:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techreport.com | Dell, Toshiba, and Lenovo utilities expose PCs to more attacks - The Tech Report [ http://ur1.ca/oc5cz ] | Dec 10 05:04 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 05:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674886622459133954 | Dec 10 05:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Complete bullshit @schestowitz https://t.co/qMKF9CAa5Q | Dec 10 05:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.businessinsider.com | Microsoft wants to train you to Linux - Business Insider | Dec 10 05:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6903957 | Dec 10 05:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The @linuxfoundation won't allow #torvalds to criticise #microsoft for much longer http://betanews.com/2015/12/09/microsoft-linux-foundation-azure-certification/ http://www.networkworld.com/article/3013473/microsoft-subnet/microsoft-to-offer-a-linux-based-cert-for-azure-admins.html | Dec 10 05:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> betanews.com | Microsoft partners with The Linux Foundation for 'Linux on Azure' certification | Dec 10 05:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.networkworld.com | Microsoft to offer a Linux-based cert for Azure admins | Network World | Dec 10 05:16 | |
| schestowitz | "That they admitted defeat…" | Dec 10 05:16 |
| schestowitz | Would you personally interpret it that way? | Dec 10 05:16 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896452783579141 | Dec 10 05:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita https://t.co/KADdN5xXBf | Dec 10 05:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo protest in less than an hour. Nice and sunny in #munich https://t.co/ycP7YKswro | Dec 10 05:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896876597039105 | Dec 10 05:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @GreyBservices @schestowitz @FOSSpatents What a scandal! EPO staff should not contact anyone without permission! | Dec 10 05:25 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: not exactly Microsoft profiting from Linux Foundations money making game. So torvalds will still criticise Microsoft for a while yet. | Dec 10 05:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AdV007/status/674899793097957376 | Dec 10 05:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AdV007: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Yup: #FBI - killing US tech industry for your safety! #backdoor #encryption | Dec 10 05:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674900306505760768 | Dec 10 05:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents doesnt this sound like that they want to regulate personal lives of their staff? | Dec 10 05:37 | |
| schestowitz | Even illness (or #epo staff) is not allowed, or at least strongly discouraged http://techrights.org/2015/12/06/epo-sick-leave-gaming/ | Dec 10 05:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc5f5 ] | Dec 10 05:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901256368988160 | Dec 10 05:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 05:44 | |
| schestowitz | " I first read that as Kardashians. Kazakstan, not much better." | Dec 10 05:44 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901321837887488 | Dec 10 05:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 05:44 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: you have to remember when Linus gave the finger to Nvidia 1 it was at a Nvidia sponsered event 2 Nvidia was/and still is chipping into the Linux foundation. | Dec 10 05:49 |
| schestowitz | > old: | Dec 10 05:50 |
| schestowitz | > https://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/kopimism-level-1-the-creation/ | Dec 10 05:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-christianengstrom.wordpress.com | A Kopimist Gospel — Book 1: The Creation | Christian Engström, Pirat | Dec 10 05:50 | |
| schestowitz | Are people taking this seriously? IMHO as self-discrediting as "Church of emacs/gnu" | Dec 10 05:50 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903117402497024 | Dec 10 05:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @schestowitz @KrapulaPhD @FOSSpatents great post Dr. Roy. Kind of amazed or surprised or whatever you call it! | Dec 10 05:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903412174024704 | Dec 10 05:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents pretty much right Krapula. EPO is behaving like a spy agency. | Dec 10 05:51 | |
| schestowitz | "Worse actually, bleh.:/" | Dec 10 05:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674904367108128768 | Dec 10 05:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Well technically you can be poor and still find some of the best curry spices for cheap. Just know where to look. | Dec 10 05:52 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 05:54 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ppetrovdotnet/status/674905245940588544 | Dec 10 06:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ppetrovdotnet: Https is not enough! Http is old, too old! https://t.co/4WeWp15Te7 | Dec 10 06:03 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "I used to work for a company I'm sure you have heard of -- Two letters, starts with a G." https://t.co/cmjQAhkHRM #ge | Dec 10 06:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674905514661257216 | Dec 10 06:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita @POLITICOEurope https://t.co/0oATTOYi2V | Dec 10 06:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo staff protest "Thursday 10 December, starting from the Pschorrhöfe building at 12h." 5 minutes from now https://t.co/4DQH4gIQPY #suepo | Dec 10 06:04 | |
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| MinceR | 065512 < oiaohm> MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started. Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives. Yes we have to change away from old school MBR | Dec 10 09:08 |
| MinceR | and BIOS because new items had outgrown them. Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in | Dec 10 09:08 |
| MinceR | even a 4kb MBR. | Dec 10 09:09 |
| MinceR | yet another poor excuse | Dec 10 09:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No its not a poor excuse | Dec 10 09:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The reality is the time of the old BIOS design is over. | Dec 10 09:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: using 4kb size breaks lot of the older OS as well. | Dec 10 09:15 |
| oiaohm | Even using the 2KB solution has problems. | Dec 10 09:16 |
| MinceR | apparently the time of the general purpose computer is over as well | Dec 10 09:16 |
| MinceR | and the time of computers that do what the user/owner wants | Dec 10 09:16 |
| oiaohm | Just because the time of PC BIOS is over does not mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 09:17 |
| oiaohm | Of the idea of general purpose computer. | Dec 10 09:17 |
| MinceR | well, according to you, storage devices getting bigger is sufficient justification for uefi | Dec 10 09:17 |
| oiaohm | Does mean there is a battle to be fort. | Dec 10 09:18 |
| MinceR | from which it follows that bigger storage devices mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 09:18 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 10 09:18 |
| MinceR | it's absurd, but it's what you said | Dec 10 09:18 |
| oiaohm | I said EFI was started because of that problem. | Dec 10 09:18 |
| oiaohm | Or course coreboot also addresses the problem. | Dec 10 09:18 |
| oiaohm | Trying to say with BIOS is just going to become more and more not workable. | Dec 10 09:19 |
| oiaohm | The fixes to extend BIOS will break it compadiblity with older OS as well. | Dec 10 09:20 |
| MinceR | it's impossible to fit the bootloader in the first 2TB of the drive? i doubt that. | Dec 10 09:21 |
| MinceR | if all else fails, they could just add a replaceable flash memory card on the mainboard to hold some of the boot code | Dec 10 09:21 |
| oiaohm | It is as the drives get bigger and you are needing to use 32 bit modes to access stuff. | Dec 10 09:21 |
| oiaohm | Basically you out grow what you can do in a single sector. | Dec 10 09:22 |
| MinceR | we already had to fit stuff in the first whatever bytes of the HDD and it worked | Dec 10 09:23 |
| oiaohm | The reality for a long time the complete loader has not fitted in the MBR. | Dec 10 09:23 |
| oiaohm | Instead it been a stub loader. | Dec 10 09:24 |
| oiaohm | Something like coreboot loading directly loading the loader could be anywere in a on a PB or larger drive. | Dec 10 09:29 |
| oiaohm | Or in a motherboard flash device. | Dec 10 09:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot obeys doing what the user wants as long as user can in fact install it. | Dec 10 09:30 |
| oiaohm | Way more than BIOS does. | Dec 10 09:30 |
| oiaohm | So someone making arguement for boot guard and other things opened up path for coreboot makes sense. | Dec 10 09:31 |
| MinceR | and the stub loader still fits there | Dec 10 09:31 |
| oiaohm | EFI gone with put all loaders in a 1 partition somewhere on drive. Key words somewhere on drive. | Dec 10 09:32 |
| oiaohm | So you can technically put EFI loader partition after any ammount of space. | Dec 10 09:32 |
| MinceR | and by doing so it sets not only the filesystem but also the partitioning scheme in stone | Dec 10 09:33 |
| oiaohm | But a lot of implementations of UEFI and EFI are broekan. | Dec 10 09:33 |
| MinceR | not caring about the future is the way of the future! | Dec 10 09:33 |
| oiaohm | Staying with BIOS sets using MBR limitations. | Dec 10 09:34 |
| oiaohm | Chosing coreboot would be about choosing to be able to use what ever partition scheme you like. | Dec 10 09:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but you have been arguement why cannot we stay with BIOS. The reality is your points against EFI a lot of them are a reason not to stay with BIOS. | Dec 10 09:36 |
| oiaohm | The time of bios is over. The time to fight for freedom in the it replacement. Preferably to have more freedom than we already had. | Dec 10 09:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not I do care about the future and this is why I say the time of BIOS is over. No point keeping on attempting to prop a dead horse and pretending its a live horse. | Dec 10 09:39 |
| MinceR | it's still better than uefi | Dec 10 09:40 |
| MinceR | making things even worse is not a solution | Dec 10 09:40 |
| oiaohm | UEFI is techically a live horse in the race. | Dec 10 09:40 |
| oiaohm | So like or not it techically can win. | Dec 10 09:40 |
| MinceR | technically uefi is the end of the PC | Dec 10 09:40 |
| oiaohm | No uefi as it developed has become less and less restrictive in implementations. | Dec 10 09:41 |
| MinceR | because only allowing winblows to be booted is "less restrictive"? | Dec 10 09:41 |
| oiaohm | That is gone from modern forms where you can replace the secureboot keys. | Dec 10 09:42 |
| oiaohm | This is also your problem MinceR you arguements don't keep up with the current state of UEFI. | Dec 10 09:42 |
| oiaohm | Could with enough presume UEFI boot secuirty be lighted even more yes it could. | Dec 10 09:43 |
| oiaohm | prsume/ pressure | Dec 10 09:44 |
| MinceR | your problem is that you ignore m$'s agenda and what they're doing about it | Dec 10 09:47 |
| oiaohm | This is one of your fall back arugments and normally a sign that you have not done your homework. | Dec 10 09:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: can you explain why newer forms UEFI standard allows loaders be multi signed. One combination signed by Microsoft and signed by your own company/distrobution | Dec 10 09:50 |
| oiaohm | This does not match to following Microsoft agenda. | Dec 10 09:51 |
| MinceR | apparently ignoring m$'s logo requirements was my homework | Dec 10 09:51 |
| MinceR | good to know | Dec 10 09:51 |
| oiaohm | To be correct you did not read the MS Logo requirements completely either. | Dec 10 09:52 |
| oiaohm | It mandates that the UEFI implmentation conforms the most modern form. | Dec 10 09:52 |
| oiaohm | The form that makes it possible to strip the MS KEK out. | Dec 10 09:52 |
| MinceR | what about ARM? | Dec 10 09:53 |
| oiaohm | Even on ARM microsoft mandates the most current version but there has not been as far as a know any new Windows 10 devices using UEFI. | Dec 10 09:53 |
| oiaohm | The older MS Logo requirements mandated older UEFI those did not mandate that you could change the PK so you could be locked out. | Dec 10 09:54 |
| oiaohm | So MinceR things are not perfectly going in Microsoft favour either. | Dec 10 09:55 |
| oiaohm | Only major mother of issue I can see in current day UEFI for Microsoft favor is the possiblity of installing firmware updates reseting the PK/KEK settings. Reason why I am not exactly happen the section of UEFI covering firmware updating not giving users enough control. | Dec 10 09:58 |
| oiaohm | UEFI firmware update also under current UEFI design ship out based on platform MinceR. Now that is a true issue that could undermine the idea of a general computer than you can boot any OS. | Dec 10 10:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are spending so much time focused on secureboot that you have missed the truly leathal problem. | Dec 10 10:01 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: The most sick arguement for why end users were not to be given PK and KEK setting rights came from HP not Microsoft. The arguement was cost. That right HP wanted to keep the number of KEK enteries to a bare min so the could ship motherboard with the smallest flash possible. | Dec 10 10:15 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674969986247561216 | Dec 10 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz No, there are actually such things as unpaid Microsoft fanboys. | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | Well, if they're paid by Microsoft, I wouldn't call them "fans" | Dec 10 10:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep the term shills is used for those that a paid. | Dec 10 10:17 |
| oiaohm | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill Yes it an official employment title in some places. | Dec 10 10:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 10 10:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674971533916377088 | Dec 10 10:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Some of them are. But then again I have met people who supported Microsoft. And it actually cost them money. | Dec 10 10:19 | |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: you know the relationship between hp and m$, right? | Dec 10 10:45 |
| schestowitz | it's not as strong as the one with Dell | Dec 10 10:46 |
| schestowitz | All companies in tech are connected to Microsoft | Dec 10 10:46 |
| schestowitz | EVen non-tech, if they use Windows | Dec 10 10:46 |
| schestowitz | HP isn't among the worst, even though many execs there came from Microsoft | Dec 10 10:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: HP was even saying that Microsoft not to have a KEK for OS and KEK for UEFI drivers instead just have one. It was a good mailing list read as you saw HP and Microsoft developers spitting chips at each other. | Dec 10 10:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes there is a releationship but ODM cost saving attempts from HP will see HP fight with Microsoft. | Dec 10 10:57 |
| MinceR | not the attempts to turn our computers into garbage, though | Dec 10 11:00 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: supporting only 1 OS per model would make ODM support staff be able to be cheaper and dumber. | Dec 10 11:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the issue people updatting Windows 7 and 8.1 laptops/computer to Windows 10 are running into as well. | Dec 10 11:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Microsoft want people only to run Microsoft OSs. Lot of ODM would perfer us to only run 1 OS. | Dec 10 11:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYb97uKCldI good watch. This is from 2014. Attackers do want to get into bios. | Dec 10 11:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | DEF CON 22 Summary of Attacks Against BIOS and Secure Boot - YouTube | Dec 10 11:20 | |
| schestowitz | "if you have a wikidot login, I can invite you to the epomustgo website" | Dec 10 11:48 |
| schestowitz | "there are still some relevant infos on there" | Dec 10 11:48 |
| schestowitz | To read or to write? I wouldn't want to go with the words "epomustgo" because we want only the management to go | Dec 10 11:48 |
| schestowitz | International and | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | unions | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | federations | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | EPSU and FNV | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | for sending a | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | letter to the Dutch | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | Prime Minister Mr | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | Rutte denouncing | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | the abuse of | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | immunity by the | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | EPO; | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch Parliament | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | (Tweede Kamer) | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | for recently voting | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | a | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | motion | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | concerning | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | the | Dec 10 11:53 |
| schestowitz | adherence by the | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | European Patent | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | Organisation to | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | international | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | legislation. | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | 23 European and | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | 6 Dutch MPs for | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | continuing to ask | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | questions to the | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | EU Commission | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | and to the Dutch | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | government | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | concerning the | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | current crisis at | Dec 10 11:54 |
| schestowitz | the EPO. | Dec 10 11:54 |
| MinceR | just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 11:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: unfortunately EPO is the worst design ever. EPO management gets to directly put forwards changes to the legislation they have to follow. | Dec 10 11:58 |
| MinceR | tell schestowitz that :> | Dec 10 11:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so changing the management could start fixing the legislation. | Dec 10 11:58 |
| oiaohm | But I would not hold out hope. | Dec 10 11:59 |
| MinceR | what about the legislation that is the basis for the existence of the epo? | Dec 10 11:59 |
| MinceR | unitary patent bullshit, iirc | Dec 10 11:59 |
| MinceR | also, even if the management could fix it in a dictatorial sort of way, it would be better to do so democratically, with clueful representative | Dec 10 12:00 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 10 12:00 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, we don't have those either | Dec 10 12:00 |
| oiaohm | Unitary patent bull crap was legislation was preposed by the EPO in the first place. The EPO was first founded to draft the rules for patents in the EU. | Dec 10 12:00 |
| MinceR | all we have is a huge hairball of corruption and the EPP | Dec 10 12:00 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 10 12:00 |
| oiaohm | So EPO is the nightmare of regulator and rule writer as the one group. | Dec 10 12:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Ideal should be cut EPO in two to start off with. | Dec 10 12:02 |
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| schestowitz | [16:55] <MinceR> just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 12:57 |
| schestowitz | EPO management breaks its own rules | Dec 10 12:57 |
| schestowitz | !google epo illegal judge suspension | Dec 10 12:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - The 'Sherlocks' of EPO/Spin-Doctoring Pretend That All of the EPO's ... | http://techrights.org/2015/10/16/crushing-dissent-at-epo/ | Dec 10 12:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - New Heise Article Makes It Clear That 'Nazi'-Themed Accusations ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/24/new-heise-article-makes-it-clear-that-nazi-themed-accusations-against-the-suspended-board-judge-were-insufficiently-substantiated/ | Dec 10 12:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - The Bogus Narrative Floated by EPO Management: Our Judges and ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/23/epo-scapegoat-tactics/ | Dec 10 12:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Exclusive: The Enlarged Board of Appeal Complains About ... | http://techrights.org/2014/12/09/exclusive-eboa/ | Dec 10 12:57 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: do they get punished for it? | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | they can break their own rules and nobody seems to enforce these | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: no | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | that's the point | Dec 10 12:58 |
| MinceR | why not? | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | they ignore the courts | Dec 10 12:58 |
| MinceR | see, the problem is that they get to ignore the courts | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | and their own rules | Dec 10 12:58 |
| MinceR | eponia | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 10 12:58 |
| schestowitz | it wasn't this bad in the past | Dec 10 12:59 |
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| schestowitz | someone sent me docs of staff reps | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | (not from them, not with consent...) | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | >> Can you send these over? | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > I guess that they would want it that way, even though any further | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > publication would quite probably worsen their situation. I think it | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > would be better if you QUOTED selected portions from the documents, | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > rather than dumping all documents online. I can supply you with OCRd | Dec 10 14:45 |
| schestowitz | > versions if you wish. | Dec 10 14:45 |
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| Really | "In the future we’ll show how the EPO even takes advantage of cancer in the family. " Really? And then you are surprised that the BBC Journalist does not respond? Do you really think they could cite your blog when you also write this crap? C'mon ... | Dec 10 16:09 |
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| schestowitz | he didn't even wait until I showed the evidence | Dec 10 16:58 |
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| cubexyz | there isn't "one OS to rule them all" even for ODMs | Dec 10 17:11 |
| cubexyz | clearly chromebooks have sold in the millions | Dec 10 17:11 |
| cubexyz | and there's android of course | Dec 10 17:11 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675001605499015168 | Dec 10 19:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Please #follow @rights_info - excellent Twitter resource. Just under 10k. Would be great to get it over 10k on this "Human Rights Day". | Dec 10 19:02 | |
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| Ennemm | Just want to help correcting address for Swedish delegation ("Contacting national delegations") | Dec 11 03:56 |
| Ennemm | Beatrice Ask is no longer minister of justice, it's Morgan Johansson. Best way of contacting is via registrator of department of justice: ju.registrator@regeringskansliet.se | Dec 11 03:57 |
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| r_schestowitz | > Received these from a source I need to protect but I'm free to share, so | Dec 11 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > if you like, you can publish 1 or more of them. I won't publish them | Dec 11 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > just because I won't have time to do another EPO post this week and | Dec 11 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > probably not even next. | Dec 11 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | Thank you. That first one will need to be shrunk a bit of pixelated. | Dec 11 04:26 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675248753675272192 | Dec 11 04:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season @schestowitz https://t.co/ibAy8PI7DK | Dec 11 04:45 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.theguardian.com | GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season | Technology | The Guardian | Dec 11 04:45 | |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675260122587930624 | Dec 11 05:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Know anything about the Open Invention Network #OIN? https://t.co/dS5KkyRQ2U cc:@schestowitz #FOSS #OpenSource #GNU/#Linux | Dec 11 05:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.openinventionnetwork.com | Home - Open Invention Network | Dec 11 05:30 | |
| r_schestowitz | I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 05:30 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Sheikh_al_Touar/status/675263079589011456 https://twitter.com/TheJusticeDept/status/672503183697182721 | Dec 11 05:40 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Sheikh_al_Touar: @TheJusticeDept @NewYorkFBI @EDNYnews @IRSnews @LorettaLynch @schestowitz European Patent Office + FIFA = much the same! USA investigations? | Dec 11 05:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 05:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.justice.gov | Sixteen Additional FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy and Corruption | OPA | Department of Justice | Dec 11 05:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 05:40 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675263475707441152 | Dec 11 05:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Alternatives? Unless one has deep pockets…once you start developing a project someone'll want to sue—even to stop it https://t.co/DujumDe4NN | Dec 11 05:41 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 05:41 | |
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| r_schestowitz | > " The take-home message (once again) is that well-studied, provably | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > secure encryption schemes that achieve strong definitions of security | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > (e.g., authenticated-encryption) are to be preferred to home-brewed | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > encryption schemes." | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177 | Dec 11 05:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-eprint.iacr.org | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/1177 | Dec 11 05:51 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > I expect at a future date a similar report on M$ OpenSSH derivative | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > since it is also using homespun encryption. | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | Fools will put their private keys on Windows | Dec 11 05:51 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675272871195774976 https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675273006625644545 | Dec 11 06:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I don't seriously turning off the spying features really turns it off. But maybe that's me being a cynic. | Dec 11 06:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Use Media Goblin, it has not Youtube Red. | Dec 11 06:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | ":Nice to see @DavidAllenGreen of @Preiskel mentioned in Private Eye 1407 re his representing @schestowitz (European Patent Office dispute)." | Dec 11 07:11 |
| r_schestowitz | Private Eye (again) | Dec 11 07:11 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675286772776099840 https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675287022194565124 | Dec 11 07:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: I'm currently unable to do this. Can anyone help @schestowitz ? The item is on p.18 of the current Private Eye. https://t.co/0mRxfHrosb | Dec 11 07:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Blue_Wode can you please take a photo and send to me? | Dec 11 07:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @schestowitz Unfortunately I can't at the moment, but I've put out a request for help. I'm pretty confident someone will get it for you. :) | Dec 11 07:15 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sean_t_ellis/status/675287851567812608 | Dec 11 07:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 07:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 07:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675288074276900864 | Dec 11 07:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @sean_t_ellis Many thanks! @schestowitz | Dec 11 07:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidBrooke_IP/status/675290914701602816 | Dec 11 07:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidBrooke_IP: .@PrivateEyeNews has picked up the @WorldIPReview story on the EPO's legal threat levelled against @schestowitz https://t.co/q2BpswFkuL | Dec 11 07:34 | |
| r_schestowitz | techrighjs in leading paper | Dec 11 07:34 |
| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/l4JqUyu.png | Dec 11 07:45 |
| cubexyz | I don't think snickers will put Hitler in their commercials | Dec 11 07:48 |
| cubexyz | just a hunch | Dec 11 07:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickers Interesting point is possible that Hitler had a snickers at some point thinking it was in production in 1930 | Dec 11 07:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Snickers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 11 07:59 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675299337346416640 | Dec 11 08:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open Source Owns the Web @schestowitz https://t.co/gVXRcnVBE0 | Dec 11 08:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bsdmag.org | Open Source Owns the Web | BSD MAG | Dec 11 08:06 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675303984429682689 | Dec 11 08:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @zoobab @schestowitz This says it all about he journalistic ethics of IAM. | Dec 11 08:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309167570247681 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: My work defending @schestowitz against the daft and illiberal legal threat of @EPOorg is featured in p 18 of @PrivateEyeNews | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675309275019943936 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Pic? | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: @zeno001 @schestowitz You can buy it and support great journalism ;-) | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/675310070876491776 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @zeno001 @DavidAllenGreen https://t.co/5X3IYR2XLG | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO Scandals in Private Eye Again | Techrights | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309652196900868 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Some of the correspondence in that case has been posted by @schestowitz at https://t.co/VmvKgi2Hjt You may find it amusing. | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | How the EPO Twisted Defamation Law in a Failed Bid to Silence Techrights | Techrights | Dec 11 08:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 08:44 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675310433948016640 | Dec 11 08:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Damn you for always being right... :-) | Dec 11 08:45 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112 | Dec 11 08:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @schestowitz Thanks! | Dec 11 08:48 | |
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| MinceR | "Call a man a faggot and offend him for a day. Teach a man to SJW and he'll be offended for a lifetime. " | Dec 11 11:56 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675310920126570497 | Dec 11 12:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: In essence, @EPOorg threatened an action in defamation when, as a matter of law, it was not able to. It was amusing to point this out. | Dec 11 12:17 | |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675311362877337600 | Dec 11 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It was such a basic howler, it was odd that @EPOorg even made the legal threat, let alone in such an aggressive way. | Dec 11 12:18 | |
| Dentist | Don't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ... | Dec 11 12:18 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675312841709195266 | Dec 11 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It is basic rule of defamation law that public bodies cannot sue in defamation. But none of @EPOorg's (then) lawyers realised this. | Dec 11 12:18 | |
| Dentist | So, a complete reworking of the smile in a top German practice (3000-10.000 EUR, if not more) how would it be not considered a bribe in any other European country? Not in the magical word of EPONIA! Where the President can count on the unwavering and smiling support of countries untouched by the progress of modern destistry: Macedonia! Albania! Croatia! Bulgaria! San Marino! | Dec 11 12:18 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112 | Dec 11 12:19 |
| r_schestowitz | hi Dentist | Dec 11 12:19 |
| MinceR | Molvania? | Dec 11 12:19 |
| r_schestowitz | [17:18] <Dentist> Don't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ... | Dec 11 12:19 |
| r_schestowitz | Any docs? | Dec 11 12:19 |
| r_schestowitz | Did IP Kat publish good proof and context? | Dec 11 12:20 |
| r_schestowitz | I follow Merpel but have not noticed this | Dec 11 12:20 |
| Dentist | Have a look at the comments at the IPKat. Points 45 and 46 of the minutes. | Dec 11 12:20 |
| r_schestowitz | which article? | Dec 11 12:20 |
| Dentist | http://ipkitten.blogspot.de/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html?showComment=1449838746530#c5140086158519968232 and further comments | Dec 11 12:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.de | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to Eponia | Dec 11 12:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | thanks | Dec 11 12:21 |
| r_schestowitz | not read the latest comments yet | Dec 11 12:21 |
| Dentist | My pleasure. | Dec 11 12:22 |
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| r_schestowitz | wow | Dec 11 12:24 |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675369030937636865 | Dec 11 12:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @fattoquotidiano @ilgiornale @Corriereit @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico @VirusRai2 @redazioneiene https://t.co/UdQbo7yGYg | Dec 11 12:38 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Contacting National Delegations to Complain About the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/RaCEvR3L0z #epo | Dec 11 12:38 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6907052 | Dec 11 15:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for #Ubuntu 16.04 LTS http://news.softpedia.com/news/unity-7-online-search-is-being-dropped-for-ubuntu-16-04-lts-497425.shtml #gnu #linux #canonical | Dec 11 15:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for Ubuntu 16.04 LTS [ http://ur1.ca/oc8x7 ] | Dec 11 15:19 | |
| schestowitz | "Finally!" | Dec 11 15:19 |
| schestowitz | "Yes' | Dec 11 15:20 |
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| schestowitz | "YES! :)" | Dec 11 15:35 |
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| Happens | anyone here? | Dec 11 17:24 |
| XRevan86 | Happens: Affirmative. | Dec 11 17:25 |
| Happens | cool | Dec 11 17:25 |
| Happens | Just curious about this site,so I am just exploring. | Dec 11 17:26 |
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| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/getsunT.jpg | Dec 11 17:30 |
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| Happens_ | Hmm, IRC not practical when browseing in a different tab... At least on this apparatus. | Dec 11 17:31 |
| MinceR | dedicated irc clients tend to work better than web clients | Dec 11 17:31 |
| MinceR | especially weechat and irssi | Dec 11 17:31 |
| Happens_ | iOS on this tablet, possibly this WE. | Dec 11 17:32 |
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| Happens | Is Dr. Schestowitz always this productive? | Dec 11 17:34 |
| Happens | (also: not going to log in again if I get shot out again - in case that happens I wish you all a fne weekend!) | Dec 11 17:35 |
| Happens | already shot down again? | Dec 11 17:37 |
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| Happens | Okay, have a fine weekend, I might have some time after having skimmed a few more or those articles. | Dec 11 17:38 |
| Happens | Best wishes to all! | Dec 11 17:38 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.informationweek.com/cloud/microsoft-red-hat-alliance-shows-growing-cloud-influence/a/d-id/1323013 | Dec 11 19:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.informationweek.com | Microsoft, Red Hat Alliance Shows Growing Cloud Influence - InformationWeek [ http://ur1.ca/oc9bj ] | Dec 11 19:22 | |
| schestowitz | Several other Linux suppliers signed up, though they tended to be the likes of Melco Group, Xandos, Linspire, and LG Electronics. (Image: julos/iStockphoto). It was never clear to me whether they were paying Microsoft royalties or whether Microsoft was " | Dec 11 19:22 |
| schestowitz | Xandros did | Dec 11 19:22 |
| cubexyz | paid microsoft royalties for...? | Dec 11 19:25 |
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| cubexyz | Microsoft itself pays royalties I would imagine | Dec 11 19:36 |
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| schestowitz | #EPO “Doesn't Actually Deny That There's a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-fast-track-project/ | Dec 12 02:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | New Private Eye Article Says EPO “Doesn’t Actually Deny That There’s a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc9x0 ] | Dec 12 02:53 | |
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| schestowitz | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-money-motive/ | Dec 12 04:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oca09 ] | Dec 12 04:08 | |
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| cubexyz | more customers complaining about windows 10... | Dec 12 22:11 |
| cubexyz | also there's some talk of a google/microsoft "war" | Dec 12 22:11 |
| cubexyz | something about the Microsoft browser not playing nice with google search | Dec 12 22:11 |
| cubexyz | hopefully I'll get a few converts out of it | Dec 12 22:12 |
| cubexyz | there was also one customer who told me (in rather vague terms) that windows 10 wiped out files on his computer | Dec 12 22:13 |
| cubexyz | it's not that I want to deal with the win10 nonsense... it's just helping customers | Dec 12 22:20 |
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| BACKUP | ||
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is quite a good history of the core tree of x11 that is missing the accelerated x11 versions but otherwise complete. | Dec 06 00:37 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, fill me in | Dec 06 00:39 |
| cubexyz | you mean Accelerated-X the proprietary port? | Dec 06 00:39 |
| cubexyz | I think that's why XFree86 was created | Dec 06 00:40 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673300746432065537 | Dec 06 00:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @slimekat Only today, :) has been in the drawer for a few years. Just heard of Replicant thanks to @schestowitz .May need new battery. | Dec 06 00:44 | |
| schestowitz | I want to try it on the wife's S2, but couldn't find an image when I tried | Dec 06 00:44 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Accelerated-X was one of the proprietary forks with acceleration. Its that stuff that is missing from your history. | Dec 06 00:54 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673303391024623616 | Dec 06 01:01 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz @slimekat There is a lot to dl but all speedy. https://t.co/dPWpMUclpb Just the I9100 row. Then Heimdall bits. | Dec 06 01:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> redmine.replicant.us | ReplicantImages - Replicant | Dec 06 01:01 | |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I would need more info before I could add it to the timeline | Dec 06 01:08 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: To be correct its a lot more information. Accelerated-x comes forwards to current day. | Dec 06 01:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: but most of the forks were dead by 2004 | Dec 06 01:19 |
| cubexyz | the web site says "since 1994" | Dec 06 01:32 |
| cubexyz | also says Accelerated-X was developed by Xi Graphics 'from stratch' | Dec 06 01:33 |
| cubexyz | scratch | Dec 06 01:34 |
| cubexyz | there's a linux demo, might be interesting to check out | Dec 06 01:36 |
| cubexyz | not to mention there's SuSE's XGL and Redhat has AIGLX | Dec 06 01:41 |
| MinceR | afaik AIGLX was not a separate x server though | Dec 06 01:42 |
| MinceR | that's what made it different from XGL | Dec 06 01:42 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/history-of-x.txt | Dec 06 01:42 |
| cubexyz | slightly amended | Dec 06 01:42 |
| MinceR | https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8591479296/hB7B3AD54/ | Dec 06 02:09 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/yo-dawg-i-heard-you-like-fees.jpg | Dec 06 02:11 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, that just looks weird | Dec 06 02:11 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 06 02:12 |
| *tessier is now known as teamtessier | Dec 06 03:17 | |
| *teamtessier is now known as tessier | Dec 06 03:17 | |
| oiaohm | I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it. http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot Every PK has a expire date. | Dec 06 03:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux Journal | Dec 06 03:24 | |
| oiaohm | Something fun when you buy a computer with UEFI they don't tell you what date is the expire of the PK. | Dec 06 03:24 |
| cubexyz | secure boot sucks | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | I can't run Plan 9, I can't run AROS? | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | it's bullshit | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | give me a motherboard that does not have secure boot | Dec 06 04:54 |
| cubexyz | Linux distributors shouldn't need to sign with Microsoft | Dec 06 05:00 |
| cubexyz | even on old PDP-11 systems there was a bunch of different operating systems | Dec 06 05:07 |
| cubexyz | DOS-11, DSM-11, RSX-11, Ultrix, Unix even TRIPOS | Dec 06 05:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a motherboard having secure boot does not mean it has to contain a Microsoft KEK. | Dec 06 05:12 |
| cubexyz | I heard that OEMs are fusing SHA256 public keys into the southbridge | Dec 06 05:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is boot guard the firmware protection key. Not the PK of secureboot. | Dec 06 05:16 |
| oiaohm | The PK of secure boot has a built in time expire factor. | Dec 06 05:16 |
| oiaohm | So push the computer clock far enough forwards and the installed PK will fail. | Dec 06 05:17 |
| cubexyz | this is why coreboot works on older Thinkpads and outdated intel motherboards but not new ones | Dec 06 05:20 |
| cubexyz | so that is definitely a problem | Dec 06 05:20 |
| cubexyz | I don't want to mess around with PKs, KEKs and other stuff like that | Dec 06 05:21 |
| oiaohm | To truth PK and KEK make sense with the number of boot loader level infections that have existed over the years. | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | no Microsoft bullshit wanted | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | I can secure my own BIOS | Dec 06 05:23 |
| oiaohm | PK in most motherboards you are free to swap with you own. | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | I have a programmer, and can check every byte of it | Dec 06 05:23 |
| oiaohm | Then with you own PK you are free to choose if you have Microsoft KEK or Ubuntu or Someone elese. | Dec 06 05:24 |
| cubexyz | yes, but what if I want Plan 9 or some other obscure OS? | Dec 06 05:24 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: No PK and the motherboards by default UEFI design will boot anything. | Dec 06 05:24 |
| oiaohm | as long as it a EFI loader of course. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| oiaohm | secureboot current design can be annoying but not that much of a problem. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Boot guard stuff with keys written into fuses that is another matter. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| cubexyz | I might have to use old hardware in some cases | Dec 06 05:26 |
| cubexyz | I don't think Plan 9 supports USB keyboard, at least I'm not sure | Dec 06 05:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: boot guard worries me more. | Dec 06 05:26 |
| cubexyz | it | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | Like everything in secureboot in the form of keys ie the PK and KEK you can replace. So if some attack breaches one of those keys you can remove them from you system. | Dec 06 05:27 |
| cubexyz | it's not a problem stockpiling old stuff, there must be a million P3 motherboards that no one wants | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | boot guard written into fuses what happens if the signing key gets in the wild. | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | So you might not be able to change the firmware but some hostile person can. what fun. | Dec 06 05:28 |
| cubexyz | we are dependent on OEMs making motherboards that we like | Dec 06 05:28 |
| cubexyz | no, the bad guys can't really brick my old computers | Dec 06 05:29 |
| cubexyz | even if they blanked out the BIOS I am ready :) | Dec 06 05:29 |
| cubexyz | also as you pointed out there is Raspberry PI 2 | Dec 06 05:31 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that does not have secure boot right? | Dec 06 05:31 |
| cubexyz | I think it uses u-boot | Dec 06 05:32 |
| oiaohm | This is why I don't fear UEFI secureboot that much. https://lwn.net/Articles/571031/ People don't know u-boot and other things. | Dec 06 05:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Verified U-Boot [LWN.net] | Dec 06 05:34 | |
| oiaohm | Yes u-boot you can run into a signed boot problem cubexyz | Dec 06 05:34 |
| oiaohm | Worse u-boot does not have design to bipass it like UEFI has if you have boot gaurd like stuff protecting u-boot | Dec 06 05:35 |
| cubexyz | not on Raspberry PI though | Dec 06 05:35 |
| oiaohm | Raspberry PI CPU does support signed firmware protection. | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | in the 2 | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | Just it not enabled. | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically a Respbery PI 2 is not that much different to a UEFI motherboard without PK or boot guard enabled even that it has the features. | Dec 06 05:37 |
| cubexyz | no fans and no heat sink | Dec 06 05:40 |
| oiaohm | There are UEFI motherboards without fans or heatsinks. | Dec 06 05:41 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://wiki.linaro.org/ARM/UEFI | Dec 06 05:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.linaro.org | ARM/UEFI - Linaro Wiki | Dec 06 05:42 | |
| oiaohm | Yep UEFI is on arm as well as x86 | Dec 06 05:42 |
| cubexyz | nothing ATX though | Dec 06 05:42 |
| oiaohm | I understand the security requirements for boot guard the firmware. | Dec 06 05:43 |
| oiaohm | What I don't understand is why the signing keys could not be placed in a block of flash with a physical write protect switch. | Dec 06 05:44 |
| oiaohm | This way if you wanted to you could replace the firmware | Dec 06 05:44 |
| cubexyz | I can already do that though | Dec 06 05:44 |
| oiaohm | blow fuse links to record a signing key has other problems as well. | Dec 06 05:45 |
| oiaohm | What if something blows a few more links. | Dec 06 05:45 |
| oiaohm | So this will mean more motherboards in the ruined pile. | Dec 06 05:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I have always backed the idea that all firmware should have a write protect switch because users/makers don't update it all the time. | Dec 06 05:47 |
| cubexyz | I'm pretty sure some motherboards had a jumper for that | Dec 06 05:47 |
| cubexyz | older ones | Dec 06 05:47 |
| oiaohm | a lot had clear cmos settings jumper. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | but not a lock firmware switch. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | Only thing I know with lock firmware switchs is chromebooks. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | The thing to remeber is groups like the NSA are free to use any method the like to attempt to get there hands on signing half of a public key. | Dec 06 05:50 |
| oiaohm | Only way you can be sure you will know about a signing half breach is if you are the one in charge of it. | Dec 06 05:51 |
| cubexyz | no, I'm sure that ECS motherboards had CLR_CMOS and BIOS_WP jumpers | Dec 06 05:51 |
| cubexyz | so there were 2 jumpers | Dec 06 05:51 |
| oiaohm | I have never come in contact with an ECS brand motherboard. | Dec 06 05:52 |
| cubexyz | http://www.ecs.com.tw | Dec 06 05:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ecs.com.tw | NO TITLE | Dec 06 05:52 | |
| cubexyz | anyway, they exist(ed) | Dec 06 05:57 |
| cubexyz | might be a pain finding one | Dec 06 05:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: interesting brand. First one I have seen with physicaly switches for power and reset on the motherboard. | Dec 06 05:58 |
| cubexyz | useful :) | Dec 06 05:58 |
| cubexyz | BIOS is also socketed | Dec 06 06:01 |
| cubexyz | bad guy can't do anything to the BIOS without physical access | Dec 06 06:03 |
| oiaohm | That is if the bios has a write protect switch. | Dec 06 06:05 |
| oiaohm | physical security on computers is still crap. | Dec 06 06:05 |
| oiaohm | Ok physical security for most computer is still crap. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | socketed TPM chips are since there is not a unified standard for them. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | is hell. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| cubexyz | older computers had ROMs | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | Exactly | Dec 06 06:07 |
| cubexyz | you had to change the chip to upgrade the BIOS/firmware | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Attackers had to have physical access to mess with the bios in the time of roms. | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Come forwards to flash and attacker could in infect the BIOS with a program. | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | All the boot guard stuff is avoiding the KISS idea. If physical switch was added most of the boot guard stuff would be pointless. | Dec 06 06:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: think about it how often do you change bios settings. Maybe 1 a year if lucky. | Dec 06 06:10 |
| oiaohm | Firmware is only really updated 1 or 2 a year. | Dec 06 06:10 |
| cubexyz | on one computer I changed the settings a lot | Dec 06 06:11 |
| oiaohm | But you would not call that normal cubexyz | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | one machine was for msdos games and had "sound blaser emulation on/off" | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | no, not normal | Dec 06 06:11 |
| oiaohm | For normal PC the firmware only need to be writeable of a max of 3 days a year. | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | would BIOS write protect stop user from just changing the settings? | Dec 06 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Depends where the settings are stored. | Dec 06 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Like if BIOS and CMOS settings are stored in the same flash chip it could. | Dec 06 06:13 |
| oiaohm | Of course it would not cost that much more to have a flash chip each for that. | Dec 06 06:13 |
| cubexyz | e.g. my QDI motherboard has BIOS protect in CMOS | Dec 06 06:13 |
| cubexyz | but I can turn it off | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | but that's different of course | Dec 06 06:14 |
| oiaohm | You want physical. | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | right | Dec 06 06:14 |
| oiaohm | I have software for overwriting CMOS from boot disc. | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | I could also remove the BIOS chip and reprogram it | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | Once attack is physical you are screwed anyhow. | Dec 06 06:15 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | Why because you can extend the BIOS by what cards have on them that you insert into slots. | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | remove and reprogram bios chip is a lot slower than adding a card. | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | it is, but I glued thumb tacks on mine :) | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | coreboot stuff you know | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | zif socket would have been a lot better really | Dec 06 06:17 |
| oiaohm | I have used a forced boot card before. | Dec 06 06:17 |
| cubexyz | MSI MS-7067 also has BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 06 06:18 |
| cubexyz | so they did exist, but were uncommon | Dec 06 06:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a force boot card forces a computer to come up even if it BIOS chip is removed. | Dec 06 06:18 |
| cubexyz | nifty | Dec 06 06:18 |
| oiaohm | In fact CPU and bios can be removed. | Dec 06 06:19 |
| cubexyz | where do you get a card like that? And I assume it's PCI? | Dec 06 06:19 |
| cubexyz | how would the force boot card know how to initialize memory registers? | Dec 06 06:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you just mentioned why they are a pain and expensive. | Dec 06 06:22 |
| oiaohm | Each forced boot card matchs to a motherboard or motherboard series. | Dec 06 06:22 |
| cubexyz | ah I see | Dec 06 06:22 |
| oiaohm | Of course the reason why they can cope with missing cpu is they have a cpu on board. | Dec 06 06:23 |
| oiaohm | So they take control of the system from bus side. | Dec 06 06:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: rapid diagnose for warnarty repairs they exist for. So no point send out a new motherboard if everything else in the system is bust right. | Dec 06 06:24 |
| cubexyz | I know about Post cards, but this sounds like something a lot more elaborate | Dec 06 06:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are 3 levels. | Dec 06 06:28 |
| oiaohm | Post cards that just print out information that the system spits out all the time. | Dec 06 06:29 |
| oiaohm | http://www.uxd.com/phdpci2.shtml Items like this with a light microcontroller that can probe themselves. | Dec 06 06:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uxd.com | P.H.D. PCI 2 - Professional Hardware Diagnostics PCI | Dec 06 06:29 | |
| oiaohm | then the fine level what are forced boot cards that bring the system back to life allowing you todo data recovery simply. | Dec 06 06:30 |
| oiaohm | fine/final | Dec 06 06:30 |
| cubexyz | looks expensive | Dec 06 06:31 |
| oiaohm | Not only looks expensive. | Dec 06 06:32 |
| oiaohm | phd pci2 is about ~800 USD | Dec 06 06:32 |
| oiaohm | And that is cheep compared to a force boot card. | Dec 06 06:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: forced boot cards start at about 1500 and go up normally you rent them as part of warnaty support agreement. | Dec 06 06:34 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: It quite a privilage to get to use a forced boot card. | Dec 06 06:36 |
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| MinceR | https://i.imgur.com/oKS4a0M.jpg | Dec 06 10:32 |
| MinceR | 042358 < oiaohm> I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it. | Dec 06 10:32 |
| MinceR | http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot Every PK has a expire date. | Dec 06 10:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux Journal | Dec 06 10:32 | |
| MinceR | like i said, uefi sucks | Dec 06 10:32 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: the expire date is a key to bypass UEFI if you cannot access some form of UEFI configuration. Once PK is expired it like you have deleted the PK key. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basially UEFI has a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but something like u-boot verified does not have a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| MinceR | calling uefi "designed" sounds like an overstatement | Dec 06 10:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The flaw was designed in. First version of UEFI did not have a PK expire option. | Dec 06 10:52 |
| oiaohm | No encryption key should have a unlimited life. That was forced by NIST requirements. | Dec 06 10:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not somethings about UEFI were designed/mandated. | Dec 06 10:54 |
| MinceR | then booting should not require an encryption key | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was the ludicrous bloated designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | s/ted/t/ | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was the extreme reliance on m$ formats designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was making winblows' idiotic practice of keeping the system clock set to local time (including DST) designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:56 |
| MinceR | s/)/& "standard"/ | Dec 06 10:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST is behind the mandation of signed loading. This is why it appears in u-boot and stack of other solutions as well. | Dec 06 10:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: system clock set to DST goes back to early Unix before MSDos existed. | Dec 06 11:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so if system clock should be DST, Time Offset or GMT goes back before Microsoft even made it first sale. | Dec 06 11:01 |
| MinceR | and was fixed before even PCs existed | Dec 06 11:01 |
| oiaohm | No it was not fixed before PC existed. | Dec 06 11:02 |
| MinceR | uefi is supposed to be "modern", isn't it? | Dec 06 11:02 |
| oiaohm | UEFI in fact does not make any choice on what system time should be. | Dec 06 11:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all Unixs you can choose what ever you wish the system clock is set as. | Dec 06 11:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also http://superuser.com/questions/482860/does-windows-8-support-utc-as-bios-time Windows does have means of locking clock to UTC/GMT/DST | Dec 06 11:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-superuser.com | Does Windows 8 support UTC as BIOS time? - Super User | Dec 06 11:05 | |
| oiaohm | Problem Microsoft makes it a complete pain in the ass to set that is all MinceR | Dec 06 11:05 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap. | Dec 06 12:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/673490353706704896 | Dec 06 13:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Точно. В Apple нет ничего передового. Это, действительно, просто очередная религия. https://t.co/EgtJkAUVQI | Dec 06 13:20 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #apple is lying about Open Source https://t.co/AoMNLyWREM than again, to many it's a religion, they'll believe anything... | Dec 06 13:20 | |
| XRevan86 | Russian? In #techrights? :) | Dec 06 13:24 |
| XFaCE | XRevan86: it's more likely than you think | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: Точно. | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XFaCE | I didn't say I speak russian :P | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XFaCE | despite some EasternEuro ancestors :P | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: "That's right" :) | Dec 06 13:31 |
| XFaCE | :) | Dec 06 13:33 |
| XRevan86 | "@Zeipt Right. Apple has nothing advanced. It's really just yet another religion." | Dec 06 13:40 |
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| oiaohm | The bad news here apple is not exactly lying about open source. | Dec 06 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Please remember Apple 1 were kit construction with sample code under unrestricted license. | Dec 06 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Now has Apple maintained a consistent Open Souce Policy the answer is no. | Dec 06 13:47 |
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| oiaohm | Basically marketing weasels at work at Apple again using Half truths. Half truth is yes you are telling the truth but you have omitted key facts that change the complete light of the matter. | Dec 06 13:49 |
| A_Friend | Suddenly a lot of comments pro-management are appearing at the | Dec 06 13:50 |
| A_Friend | IPKat. The media strstegy is working. | Dec 06 13:51 |
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| schestowitz | I saw that | Dec 06 14:07 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673502715620794368 | Dec 06 14:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz I used to be that guy in say 04/05. PowerBook and an iPod. Although then they were really good. Standard have dropped. | Dec 06 14:09 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502891232088064 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502957854420992 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673503022748704768 | Dec 06 14:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz this, is pure bullshit. a) microsoft's code in upstream openssh goes through the same reviews as anyone else. | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz the money means _nothing_ as far as code review goes | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz and, it wasn't anywhere near $1mil. | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds blobs | Dec 06 14:10 |
| schestowitz | I didn't say code reviews are affected | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | red herring | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673504868838035456 | Dec 06 14:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz blobs are not accepted in upstream openssh'd codebase. | Dec 06 14:11 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds them | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/673505293167255552 | Dec 06 14:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I have to wonder if the are legal/contractual elements at play here, or if it is just all greed... | Dec 06 14:13 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: I have seen no openssh blobs from Microsoft. | Dec 06 14:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/62700d807d0e01339da8060714e07a3a | Dec 06 14:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 06 14:15 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: well it wouldn't be that obvious | Dec 06 14:16 |
| XFaCE | HERE IS THE COMMIT OF PROPRIETARY CRAP THAT MICROSOFT HAS ADDED | Dec 06 14:16 |
| XFaCE | no, more likely it would be code to facilitate proprietary blobs that Microsoft adds later in their bundled openssh | Dec 06 14:16 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH This is the Microsoft openssh code base. | Dec 06 14:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH · GitHub | Dec 06 14:19 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: and then you can run the following processes to compare the binary to the source code http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/02/detecting-source-code-re-use-through-binary-analysis-hybrid-approach | Dec 06 14:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.forensicmag.com | Detecting Source Code Re-Use through a Binary Analysis Hybrid Approach | Dec 06 14:20 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: have you done this yourself? | Dec 06 14:21 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: at this stage I have not seen anything out of place why if there is something out of place I want to here to I can work out how I missed it. | Dec 06 14:21 |
| XFaCE | ok, so you did this comparison program yourself? | Dec 06 14:22 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: I run a light level compare looking at basic flow and I know others who run deeper. Basically I have no reports of anything hidden and nothing I have done myself suggest anything hidden. | Dec 06 14:25 |
| XFaCE | thank you for answering the question | Dec 06 14:25 |
| oiaohm | If there is some report of Microsoft OpenSSL having some hidden extras I want to see it. | Dec 06 14:25 |
| oiaohm | There is a possiblity that someone missed the Microsoft Win32-OpenSSH on github. | Dec 06 14:26 |
| oiaohm | If you compare to upstream OpenSSH and Microsoft OpenSSH there are incompadiblities. | Dec 06 14:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673507534318133249 | Dec 06 14:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I always think of the Open University TM282 mathematical modeling cycle when I see that. @schestowitz https://t.co/nfbhNAj99b | Dec 06 14:27 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> msds.open.ac.uk | MST210 - Mathematical methods, models and modelling - Open University Course | Dec 06 14:27 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html openssh is clean code base for reproducible build. Unfortunately microsoft programs 1 ) don't come with complier information they were cleanly built with 2) Microsoft complier will optimise slightly differently each time it built. | Dec 06 14:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html ) | Dec 06 14:33 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: Yes detecting blobs in Microsoft built stuff is not a walk in park why you want to hear from anyone who does it. | Dec 06 14:33 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: "why you want to hear from anyone who does it." - I obviously do, hence why I'm asking you :P | Dec 06 16:00 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DGrantGibson/status/673533706393391105 | Dec 06 16:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DGrantGibson: Very revealing article on pesticides by top scientist. A must read. #90DayTidy https://t.co/fMXWzq3UaF | Dec 06 16:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: This Scientist Uncovered Problems With Pesticides. Then the Government Started to Make His Life Miserable. https://t.co/M6RdjPjF6p | Dec 06 16:16 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: problem is even for a person like me even if appears clean to me I could have missed something. The lack of reproducible build with MS Compliers make life hard. | Dec 06 16:24 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: isn't this basically the consequence of the compiler paradox? | Dec 06 16:30 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: no its not. Debian project has proven with gcc its possible to produce reproducible builds. | Dec 06 16:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673536885747294209 | Dec 06 16:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @AltalexNews @byoblu @altalex_eu @Serv_Pubblico @reportrai3 @teuthorn @t_montinari @LaGabbiaTw @Montecitorio https://t.co/TtB7BnMzan | Dec 06 16:34 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents More Than 2,000 People,Including Directors, Said to Have Protested in Munich (About HALF of #EPO Staff) https://t.co/LEveBH9EPj | Dec 06 16:34 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: The catch is reproducible builds need very exact information about the complier used. Like exactly what patches are applied. | Dec 06 16:35 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: basically the compiler paradox argument turns not to hold water. | Dec 06 16:37 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: of course a few things the coder in their source code can do to make binary not 100 percent identical each time. But once you know what they are you can build expection profile for it. | Dec 06 16:39 |
| schestowitz | MS adds blobs | Dec 06 17:19 |
| schestowitz | it's stated they won't use the standard ciphers | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | and theirs are secret | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | Also, we know they have back doors, they'd not even deny it | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | probably more like "no comment" | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I don't want to interact with an SSH node that runs on Windows | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I won't trust it | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I wrote a whole article about key hosting | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | like some sysadmins with Windows at work (not their choice) putting private keys on Windows | Dec 06 17:21 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/6735534407784038407 | Dec 06 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 06 17:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/673553440778403840 | Dec 06 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jrobertson: #reality2015 #fakery #surveillance #apps https://t.co/jFekdsIZHv | Dec 06 17:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: A lot of so-called 'apps' these days (usually a byword for malware) harvest everything on a device, broadcast to mother ship for bulk SALE! | Dec 06 17:24 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 06 17:24 | |
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| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 06 17:25 | |
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| schestowitz | >>> Another week has passed. Any word from FSF or, more importantly, from | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> Red Hat? | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > yes, I was going to write about it today, | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > Excellent. | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | It's published now and it convinced me to move on and not persist with it... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | Dec 06 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | >> > but 2 hours just wasted | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > blocking effective DDOS attack from Baidu, so might not have time... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/82909 | Dec 06 17:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Baidu Stages De Facto DDOS Attacks (Updated) | Tux Machines | Dec 06 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > Ok. Sorry to hear that. At least the source is identified. I see when | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > pruning the spam false negatives [1] that the incoming requests are | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > still misidentified as the proxy. If you put one of those modules, rpaf | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > or mod_remoteip, it would be possible for Apache to block the offending | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > hosts and not waste cycles serving them. | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | The DDOS issue isn't as bad now as it was last week. I also managed to reduce some Drupal related spam, but Drupal is less usable for me now (wasted hours in vain trying to fix it, eventually found a workaround). | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | I don't care much for web stats (waste of time better spent writing articles), so rpaf not a priority for this particular reason... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | PS - was thinking about going HTTPS recently... | Dec 06 17:41 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tzoannop/status/673585987973488640 | Dec 06 19:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tzoannop: Είπαμε. Δημοκρατικότατη η Ευρώπη. https://t.co/sniKuRIrdR | Dec 06 19:47 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents Suppression of Voices Critical of the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/Hgjqs24dPX | Dec 06 19:47 | |
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| sebsebseb | Dec 06 20:23 | |
| schestowitz | hey | Dec 06 20:25 |
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| cubexyz | I think it's very telling that Ron Minnich, a coreboot programmer and Cory Doctorow who is a digital rights activist both have criticized EFI | Dec 06 20:52 |
| cubexyz | "EFI is an attempt to remove the ability of the user to truly control the computer" | Dec 06 20:53 |
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| cubexyz | "Windows 10 will allow OEMs to not offer the ability to disable secure boot on x86 systems" | Dec 06 20:56 |
| cubexyz | interesting phraseology... | Dec 06 20:56 |
| cubexyz | why in the world would the motherboard manufacturers allow Microsoft to call the shots? | Dec 06 20:57 |
| cubexyz | http://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20121126#qa | Dec 06 21:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-distrowatch.com | DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD. | Dec 06 21:13 | |
| cubexyz | also remember... you go to the store to buy a motherboard... it may not say anything about secure boot on the box | Dec 06 21:15 |
| cubexyz | https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html | Dec 06 21:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html ) | Dec 06 21:17 | |
| cubexyz | NSA -> backdoors -> firmware binary blobs == no freedom | Dec 06 21:21 |
| cubexyz | http://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statement | Dec 06 21:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fsf.org | Stand up for your freedom to install free software — Free Software Foundation — working together for free software | Dec 06 21:34 | |
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| MinceR | 133353 < oiaohm> MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap. | Dec 06 22:27 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#Services | Dec 06 22:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 22:27 | |
| MinceR | yet bios still doesn't encourage winblows-type braindeadness, as you can see | Dec 06 22:27 |
| cubexyz | BIOS actually predates windows | Dec 06 22:33 |
| cubexyz | BIOS even predates Microsoft | Dec 06 22:33 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, unfortunately except for the very first version of BIOS for the IBM PC (used intel software) most BIOSes were generated with Microsoft Assembler | Dec 06 22:34 |
| cubexyz | UEFI is merely the next level of Microsoft control | Dec 06 22:34 |
| cubexyz | they already had a lot of influence, as you can see from the BIOS source code that is floating around | Dec 06 22:35 |
| cubexyz | we need the BIOS for warm booting and various other things | Dec 06 22:36 |
| cubexyz | setting keyboard speed... and a ton of other things people never think about | Dec 06 22:36 |
| cubexyz | the wikipedia article on BIOS is not very good | Dec 06 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639118220447744 https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639451499896832 | Dec 06 23:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: When I was writing about patent trolls for magazines there was plenty of material @schestowitz Then I nearly got shot in Texas. | Dec 06 23:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: By a patent troll @schestowitz Whilst I was interviewing him with his permission. Turns out U.S. Gov didn't like him. | Dec 06 23:22 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/VerityPlayer/status/673643538459066368 | Dec 06 23:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@VerityPlayer: Like something out of a (very) black comedy... https://t.co/jk7ePMSumE | Dec 06 23:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @glynmoody #EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/lvuIRXWQie | Dec 06 23:22 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929 | Dec 06 23:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Ticker symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:50 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street Crash of 1929 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:50 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street | Dec 06 23:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Stock_Exchange | Dec 06 23:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | New York Stock Exchange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:51 | |
| schestowitz | looking for images for epo article.. | Dec 06 23:51 |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NY_stock_exchange_traders_floor_LC-U9-10548-6.jpg | Dec 06 23:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NY stock exchange traders floor LC-U9-10548-6.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-125_Crew_Visits_the_Stock_Exchange.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYSE_opening_bell.jpg | Dec 06 23:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:STS-125 Crew Visits the Stock Exchange.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:53 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NYSE opening bell.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 06 23:53 | |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry to say BIOS has a stack of hidden services to emulate BIOS int calls. So yes BIOS was already infected with the brain deadness. | Dec 07 00:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: technically we don't need bios most of the time. u-boot start on arm hardware there is no BIOS. Seabios and the like is usable inside Xen and other hypervisors running on UEFI or u-boot so legacy OS support does not need to be in core firmware. | Dec 07 00:40 |
| cubexyz | you still need it to get things started | Dec 07 00:41 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/coreboot-serial-output.txt | Dec 07 00:42 |
| cubexyz | coreboot does a ton of stuff | Dec 07 00:42 |
| cubexyz | you definitely need it for proper warm boot | Dec 07 00:42 |
| cubexyz | the fact that we don't have BIOS source code (mostly) is a huge problem | Dec 07 00:43 |
| cubexyz | the keyboard stuff has to be initialized | Dec 07 00:48 |
| cubexyz | all this is largely invisible to the user but it's necessary | Dec 07 00:49 |
| cubexyz | obviously it has to boot the main OS from CD-ROM or hard drive or even USB drive | Dec 07 00:50 |
| cubexyz | I think seabios is necessary for FreeDOS or 16-bit OS | Dec 07 00:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: problem here is form something like a Linux kernel BIOS is more an annoyance as when it starts it reinits almost everything anyhow so its in a known state. | Dec 07 00:52 |
| cubexyz | it's utterly necessary :) | Dec 07 00:53 |
| cubexyz | and people aren't just booting Linux but a whole range of operating systems | Dec 07 00:53 |
| cubexyz | Linux can't run without it | Dec 07 00:55 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://www.seabios.org/Releases read down --Initial support for using SeaBIOS as a UEFI Compatibility Support Module (CSM)-- | Dec 07 00:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.seabios.org | Releases - SeaBIOS | Dec 07 00:55 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: sorry Linux can run without a BIOS image. | Dec 07 00:55 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: it is possible to put Linux kernel straight into x86 firmware. | Dec 07 00:56 |
| cubexyz | take your BIOS chip out and see what happens | Dec 07 00:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: remove BIOS chip insert kernel containing chip configured for same hardware. | Dec 07 00:56 |
| cubexyz | that's just adding a kernel to the BIOS | Dec 07 00:57 |
| oiaohm | No BIOS is a particular thing. | Dec 07 00:57 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Basic Input/Output System is what BIOS stands for. | Dec 07 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel does not need BIOS to set up keyboard mouse screen.... As Linux kernel already does that stuff. | Dec 07 00:58 |
| oiaohm | All it need is a firmware that inits the hardware for operation. | Dec 07 00:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: coreboot subloads items like seabios to provide BIOS compadiblity for older OSs. Yes it possible to subload on EUFI as well. | Dec 07 01:00 |
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| cubexyz | uh, the BIOS has to boot the OS | Dec 07 01:01 |
| cubexyz | from some device | Dec 07 01:01 |
| oiaohm | No a loader has to bring OS from device. Coreboot and u-boot are technically not BIOS. | Dec 07 01:02 |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 01:07:56 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 01:09:18 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 07 01:09 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 07 01:09 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 07 01:09 | |
| cubexyz | how modern are we talking about? | Dec 07 01:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: pent 4 | Dec 07 01:09 |
| cubexyz | well, don't you have computers older than that? :) | Dec 07 01:09 |
| cubexyz | I sure do | Dec 07 01:10 |
| oiaohm | I still have a Pent 1 around. | Dec 07 01:10 |
| cubexyz | ok, so P4 or newer you have a point | Dec 07 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Seabios and the like loading under UEFI sets real mode emulation stuff up. | Dec 07 01:10 |
| cubexyz | my point is there are millions of older computers that use real mode | Dec 07 01:10 |
| oiaohm | basically UEFI does not block using real mode designed OS. | Dec 07 01:11 |
| oiaohm | UEFI does not force more moden OSs to have to put up with the emulation for them. | Dec 07 01:11 |
| cubexyz | but you would have to at least turn off secure boot right? | Dec 07 01:11 |
| cubexyz | just pointing out that your choices are diminishing | Dec 07 01:13 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the answer is no. | Dec 07 01:14 |
| oiaohm | secureboot can be on and have system loading seabios. | Dec 07 01:14 |
| MinceR | load FreeDOS, then load your own Linux kernel via LOADLIN | Dec 07 01:15 |
| oiaohm | Catch is seabios has to be signed with a matching KEK. So seabios is the OS loader. | Dec 07 01:15 |
| MinceR | then have someone else load FreeDOS and load random malware via LOADLIN | Dec 07 01:15 |
| MinceR | stir up a hysteria | Dec 07 01:15 |
| MinceR | ban the offending key | Dec 07 01:15 |
| cubexyz | so technically it's possible, but it's a total pain in the ass? | Dec 07 01:15 |
| MinceR | it doesn't help security, but it does screw inexperienced users | Dec 07 01:16 |
| MinceR | and screws warranty, most likely | Dec 07 01:16 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Lot of UEFI boards have shipped with emulation done that way. | Dec 07 01:16 |
| MinceR | it gives m$ more opportunities for FUD, and gives you no advantages | Dec 07 01:16 |
| cubexyz | not to mention there is no source code to look at | Dec 07 01:17 |
| cubexyz | so they could put anything at all in there | Dec 07 01:17 |
| MinceR | let alone modify, build, share | Dec 07 01:17 |
| cubexyz | look at Cedar Trail, it's huge | Dec 07 01:18 |
| cubexyz | Ivy Bridge, Luna Pier, Sandy Bridge... all contain huge amounts of code | Dec 07 01:18 |
| cubexyz | I'm going to sign seabios, well that's ridiculous | Dec 07 01:19 |
| cubexyz | maybe if I could turn off secure boot... otherwise no | Dec 07 01:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: turn off secureboot remove the PK | Dec 07 01:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: or push the clock forward far enough that the PK is expired. | Dec 07 01:21 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, why can't I just buy a motherboard without secure boot? | Dec 07 01:21 |
| MinceR | this | Dec 07 01:21 |
| cubexyz | I don't want it | Dec 07 01:22 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you can by motherboards without PK set. | Dec 07 01:22 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: those are secureboot off. | Dec 07 01:22 |
| cubexyz | ok, great | Dec 07 01:22 |
| MinceR | why can't i buy a mainboard with less fucked up firmware than uefi? | Dec 07 01:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: how much are you willing to spend. | Dec 07 01:22 |
| cubexyz | Raspberry PI I think would work | Dec 07 01:23 |
| cubexyz | or I just go on buying old motherboards | Dec 07 01:23 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: Intel makes customer reference model of motherboards. These are for ODM to load prototype BIOS into. | Dec 07 01:23 |
| oiaohm | and firmwares into. | Dec 07 01:23 |
| MinceR | or buy a few companies that make them, and have them make something sane for you :> | Dec 07 01:23 |
| MinceR | i'm not that rich though | Dec 07 01:23 |
| cubexyz | Raspberry PI, Pitop, Novena, and chromebooks | Dec 07 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Also customer model reference boards sux. | Dec 07 01:24 |
| cubexyz | and some thinkpads: X60, T60 or X200 | Dec 07 01:25 |
| cubexyz | pretty sure Raspberry PI 2 doesn't have secureboot | Dec 07 01:26 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 07 01:26 |
| cubexyz | I mean, it would be pretty stupid if it did being a learning/experimental tool | Dec 07 01:27 |
| cubexyz | the PI does composite video :) | Dec 07 01:32 |
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| cubexyz | changing the OS is as simple as swapping SD card | Dec 07 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Really there are graphic driver init on the Raspberry PI done by closed source and signed blob. | Dec 07 01:35 |
| oiaohm | That closed blob loads the u-boot bit. | Dec 07 01:35 |
| oiaohm | So implementing secureboot on Raspberry PI would be 1 update. | Dec 07 01:36 |
| cubexyz | PI is cheap enough to buy one to try | Dec 07 01:42 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 07 01:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Blue Pill (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 01:42 | |
| oiaohm | PI is still way under powered. | Dec 07 01:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: to get rid of secureboot requires putting something up to NIST and have them agree that your idea is a better solution than secureboot. | Dec 07 01:43 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: to deal with firmware/loader messing under OS. | Dec 07 01:44 |
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| cubexyz | oiaohm, why care about NIST? neither of us even live in the US | Dec 07 01:44 |
| cubexyz | PI is made in Wales from what I understand | Dec 07 01:45 |
| cubexyz | I doubt NIST cares what I think | Dec 07 01:45 |
| cubexyz | PI isn't even x86 | Dec 07 01:47 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I have a lot of old computers, so Blue Pill isn't a problem | Dec 07 01:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: secureboot is appearing in newer systems with virtualisation support. | Dec 07 01:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, remember we talked about BIOS_WP on ECS motherboard? | Dec 07 01:54 |
| oiaohm | http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-147/NIST-SP800-147-April2011.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-147b/draft-sp800-147b_july2012.pdf https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/files/resource_files/1FFEE497-1A4B-B294-D01FA27DFDDDEB06/UsingTPMtoAddressCybersecurity_Webinbar_May2014_Final.pdf | Dec 07 01:54 |
| cubexyz | so if I can find one... | Dec 07 01:54 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 07 01:54 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: those 3 PDF allow you to understand where nist sees us going. | Dec 07 01:55 |
| cubexyz | ok, thanks I will read them | Dec 07 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Its nist that is pushing verified boot ideas. | Dec 07 01:55 |
| cubexyz | the ODMs or whatever would still have to go along with it | Dec 07 01:56 |
| cubexyz | the jumper idea seemed a lot simpler | Dec 07 01:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if ODM want to sell to USA governement or USA government contractors or mil countries aligned with the USA who agree to the same standards have to go along with it. | Dec 07 01:58 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: so basically large block of market share to sell to is gone if you don't conform to nist standards. | Dec 07 01:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/673679090491244545 | Dec 07 01:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz this is what happens when a Microsoft mole destroys a primary industry https://t.co/kpFX9PpqG7 | Dec 07 01:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zerohedge.com | It Begins: Desperate Finland Set To Unleash Helicopter Money Drop To All Citizens | Zero Hedge | Dec 07 01:59 | |
| MinceR | 024251 < oiaohm> cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | still fails | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | the attacker could replace parts or whole of the system to boot the existing system image on a hypervisor | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | (parts or whole of the hardware) | Dec 07 02:02 |
| cubexyz | if you want a secure computer, just have one computer with NO wifi and NO internet | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | just another lame excuse to take freedom away from the user | Dec 07 02:03 |
| cubexyz | and 6 foot lead walls :) | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also prevent physical access | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | right | Dec 07 02:03 |
| cubexyz | and I do have a computer like that... Amiga 500 | Dec 07 02:04 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the presume is attacking does not have physical access. | Dec 07 02:04 |
| MinceR | then restricted boot is unnecessary | Dec 07 02:05 |
| oiaohm | remote malware was able to install items like bluepill. | Dec 07 02:05 |
| MinceR | then OS access controls were lacking | Dec 07 02:06 |
| MinceR | in fact, simply a read-only boot device would have prevented the issue | Dec 07 02:06 |
| cubexyz | Bluepill needs AMD-V though | Dec 07 02:06 |
| cubexyz | so older stuff is safe | Dec 07 02:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I said bluepill like. | Dec 07 02:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other older hidden malwares. | Dec 07 02:07 |
| cubexyz | maybe... the NSA have some smart people, but most attacks I see are dumb | Dec 07 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://ai222.narod.ru/discoloured.html anything based on this tech can do like bluepill attacks on i386 or newer. | Dec 07 02:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ai222.narod.ru | Discoloured Ring 0 Debugger | Dec 07 02:09 | |
| MinceR | they're also morally bankrupt | Dec 07 02:09 |
| cubexyz | I see Windows XP :) | Dec 07 02:10 |
| cubexyz | but worth a look | Dec 07 02:10 |
| cubexyz | a BIOS attack would be interesting | Dec 07 02:12 |
| cubexyz | just how do they attack the BIOS remotely? | Dec 07 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Its called doing too much crap. | Dec 07 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Some bios maker thought it was a good idea to add a check on internet for updates. | Dec 07 02:13 |
| MinceR | they could have added a hw switch to disable update via sw | Dec 07 02:13 |
| MinceR | far more secure than uefi without physical access | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | and uefi with physical access is worthless | Dec 07 02:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I agree with the hardware switch idea but I don't know how to get Nist to go along. | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | but i guess such things are just not "modern" enough | Dec 07 02:14 |
| cubexyz | DASH and Vpro no doubt | Dec 07 02:14 |
| cubexyz | that does go back to what I said about forced upgrades | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | well, make separate broken crap for the NIST if they want it so much and can afford to pay for it | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | no need to fuck up IT for everybody for their sake | Dec 07 02:15 |
| oiaohm | No NIST does not allow custom supply hardware in most cases. | Dec 07 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Due to the fact that custom suppied hardware could be targeted. | Dec 07 02:15 |
| cubexyz | so what do they use? | Dec 07 02:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically ODM have to make a choice. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | then they can use pen and paper | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | or better yet, rock and chisel | Dec 07 02:16 |
| cubexyz | I heard the Russians were using typewriters :) | Dec 07 02:16 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Nist standard has you using parts that you can buy through general channel that conform. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | i still don't get it why the industry has to be killed off for the sake of a single fascistic organization | Dec 07 02:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST rules control about 20 percent of the market. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, durable but inconvenient! :) | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | (and the nsa should be defunded as well) | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | i guess the problem is solving itself | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | once humanity exterminates itself, NIST and NSA members will also be all dead | Dec 07 02:17 |
| cubexyz | do the russians make motherboards? | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: last time i checked 20% was still a minority. | Dec 07 02:17 |
| cubexyz | they clone a bunch of stuff in the PDP-11 era | Dec 07 02:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: depends where. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | has NIST or NSA revolutionarized mathematics too? | Dec 07 02:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: globally 20% of the market. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | still a minority. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but particular areas on earth its 100 percent. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter, still a minority | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | 100-20=80, 80 > 20 | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | even more obviously true than uefi being broken crap. | Dec 07 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Now the next issue is what ever NIST standard normally accept other bodies like Chinas implement something equal. | Dec 07 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note MinceR NIST does not demard UEFI they just demard a verfied and secured boot. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | also note that hw switches are a lot less complex than uefi | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't care what they want, if they demand the general purpose computer to be killed, they can go fuck themselves. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| oiaohm | good thing NIST wants general purpose computer to remain. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | doesn't look like it | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Just secure general purpose computer that they are sure what software is running on it. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | their "secure general purpose computer" is not secure and not general purpose | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST wants Linux and other OS to work. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | maybe they'll find a way to also make it not a computer | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST standard is why PK is replaceable. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | again, they could just go play with rocks. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | they're doing an atrocious job at making other OS work | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | as in, they're doing an exact opposite | Dec 07 02:22 |
| oiaohm | The first idea of UEFI is the PK would 100 percent own to the ODM. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | if they're so incompetent, perhaps they should be defunded and shut down. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | here's the "big government" the republicans allegedly want to get rid of | Dec 07 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Without NIST we would not have the means to change the PK. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | without UEFI we would not have the _need_ to change the PK | Dec 07 02:23 |
| oiaohm | NIST first design secureboot signing for old school bios. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | s/an ex/the ex/ | Dec 07 02:23 |
| oiaohm | So yes a old school bios can have a PK. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter what incompetent people design for | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | if they're incapable of coming up with a good design, the designs they come up with will suck. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | and forcing such designs on the industry will kill the industry | Dec 07 02:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have not said once that the designs don't suck. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| MinceR | and once they kill the IT industry, it will take the rest of industry, tech, science and human society down with it. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| oiaohm | But like it or not we there are mandoary requirements that will have to be meet. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| MinceR | mandatory requirements that kill the general purpose computer, got it | Dec 07 02:25 |
| MinceR | it's exactly what i am against | Dec 07 02:25 |
| oiaohm | PK only in the hands of ODM would have killed the general purpose computer absolutely. | Dec 07 02:25 |
| MinceR | "only in the hands of ODM" really means "in the hands of microsoft" | Dec 07 02:26 |
| oiaohm | No it does not. | Dec 07 02:26 |
| MinceR | since they have leverage over all the ODMs, except for the ones manufacturing for crApple, which are in the same shitty situation | Dec 07 02:26 |
| MinceR | and remember, they call this a "free market" | Dec 07 02:26 |
| oiaohm | There are arm items running custom OS using PK solutions. | Dec 07 02:26 |
| cubexyz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Your_Own_Z80_Computer | Dec 07 02:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Build Your Own Z80 Computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 02:26 | |
| MinceR | yeah, as long as emperor nutella allows them to | Dec 07 02:27 |
| MinceR | sitting on the kill switch | Dec 07 02:27 |
| MinceR | or probably more likely gates | Dec 07 02:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist is also why keyless is possible. | Dec 07 02:27 |
| cubexyz | there's no kill switch :) | Dec 07 02:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically NIST has blocked 100 percent sure killing of general computing. | Dec 07 02:28 |
| MinceR | yay, slow and drawn-out death! | Dec 07 02:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think about it how can you proccess large volume of spy data without general computer. | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they are the ones who should think about that | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | in general, they should start thinking | Dec 07 02:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly. | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | as they haven't done much of it so far | Dec 07 02:29 |
| cubexyz | so the NSA will get general purpose computers and we'll get consumertron 2000s | Dec 07 02:30 |
| oiaohm | Problem is they are attempting to walk a line between secure and general computers | Dec 07 02:30 |
| MinceR | which would enable them to rule the world | Dec 07 02:30 |
| oiaohm | Like NIST made the push to move the TPM off motherboard to a socketed item. | Dec 07 02:30 |
| MinceR | no, they don't seem to have any idea of what "secure" means | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | apparently they've learned "security" from microsoft | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is wrong. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | where it means DRM and backdoors with government and m$ access | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | NIST normally publishes before Microsoft. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | and lack of user/owner control | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft follows NIST | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | In most cases. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | i don't really care what the figures in the shell game are called | Dec 07 02:32 |
| oiaohm | Like secureboot was written before UEFI had it first line of code written. | Dec 07 02:32 |
| oiaohm | secureboot by nist | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | the point is, either they will survive, or we will live free | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | there's no other way | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | or everybody dies, which is even more likely | Dec 07 02:32 |
| oiaohm | To be correct lack of user/owner control NIST does not agree with MinceR | Dec 07 02:33 |
| oiaohm | Ok NIST does not have a issue with it being a total pain in ass to operate. | Dec 07 02:33 |
| MinceR | then they should get their uefi | Dec 07 02:33 |
| MinceR | and the rest of us should get sane, reliable, secure systems instead | Dec 07 02:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: secure is the problem. | Dec 07 02:35 |
| oiaohm | How to achive secure without being a pain in ass. | Dec 07 02:35 |
| MinceR | and once they get tired of using the broken crap they plotted to force on everybody, they can give the latter a try | Dec 07 02:35 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, they're trying to achieve the illusion of a kind of security they can not have | Dec 07 02:36 |
| MinceR | and they're willing to give everything up for that illusion | Dec 07 02:36 |
| MinceR | including actual, existing security | Dec 07 02:36 |
| oiaohm | All security is part illusion. | Dec 07 02:37 |
| MinceR | how are illusions supposed to keep you safe? | Dec 07 02:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its like a locked door. Its only an illusion really that a person cannot get past it. | Dec 07 02:38 |
| oiaohm | Most safety depened on the illusion of safety that the illusion is strong enough that most will not attempt to attack it. | Dec 07 02:39 |
| MinceR | or you could put a guard next to that locked door | Dec 07 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Even a guard is still a form of illusion. If some is determed enough a guard or guards normally is not a blockage. | Dec 07 02:40 |
| MinceR | depends on the ratio of power between guards and attacker | Dec 07 02:41 |
| MinceR | and a locked door can be strengthened as well | Dec 07 02:41 |
| MinceR | but if you're dreaming to stay secure while assuming that the attacker has already passed the door, that's pointless | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No matter what you do attacker can always be stronger right. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Or sneaker. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | restricted does not help with that one bit | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | s/ted/ted boot/ | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | it merely screws things up for user/owners | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | It does help a little. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | As it makes replacement more detectable. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | So providing extra complexity to attackers to get past. | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | and harms a lot | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | makes it hard for users to use a secure OS | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | bricks computers | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | the winblows and OSuX they're trying everything to force on us are full of holes | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | To be correct UEFI design that NIST agrees with does not brick computers. | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | and will stay full of holes even if you place their illusion beside them | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | the UEFI some ODM have made does. | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | in the end, users are screwed _and_ have less security | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | good job, NIST! | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly less security. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | Not doing any validation on boot was 100 percent inscure. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | So security has improved a little. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | doing any validation on boot is still 100 percent insecure | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | Pain in ass factor increased a lot. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | it only helps companies who conspire to break security | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | m$, crApple, intel, ratcrap | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | (though ratcrap will get screwed by it anyway) | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | crApple tittle when it comes to UEFI is deserved. | Dec 07 02:46 |
| MinceR | (they're just too moronic to see it) | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Apple has made more broken UEFI implemtnations than any other vendor. | Dec 07 02:46 |
| MinceR | yay for them | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/apple_efi.html Apple used ELF instead of PE as well just customed to hell version of ELF on top. | Dec 07 02:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-refit.sourceforge.net | rEFIt - History of Apple and EFI | Dec 07 02:48 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE being a microsoft format sound bad. But at least it not Apple creating a completley new form of ELF for their UEFI. | Dec 07 02:49 |
| MinceR | yeah, m$ and crApple are both very good at fucking things up | Dec 07 02:50 |
| oiaohm | PE selection in UEFI was sane ish take existing linkers and just use those no custom modification crap. | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | not really | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | it's validating m$'s position and buying into their broken shit | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | instead of industry standards like EFI | Dec 07 02:51 |
| oiaohm | EFI used PE | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | oops | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | ELF | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | (which was agreed upon by unix vendors, afaik) | Dec 07 02:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF not quite as good as it first seams. | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | (not that they can only support one format, especially with the code size they've allowed for themselves) | Dec 07 02:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF has a lot more arch type description crap. | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | yeah, poor little winblows can't handle it | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | and everybody must go out of their way to support poor little winblows | Dec 07 02:53 |
| oiaohm | No not poor windows. | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | since they're in such a bad position | Dec 07 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Poor EFI with all the ELF arch stuff could become a pain in ass. | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | EFI _is_ a pain in the ass | Dec 07 02:53 |
| cubexyz | ELF appeared in SysV SVR4 | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | U or not U | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | it's also a gigantic pile of bloat | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | for the simple task of loading and executing a boot loader | Dec 07 02:54 |
| cubexyz | ok, well there's always PDP-11 a.out :) | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | i know big piles of crap can look impressive, but they also have the potential for lots of bugs | Dec 07 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Remember PE is extend COFF that predates ELF. | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | and in that place, bugs will brick your "computer" | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | then they could use unextended COFF | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | another standard | Dec 07 02:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| oiaohm | These days. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | they only support m$ formats and expect people to think they're impartial? that's absurd. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they could develop them. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | they could write tons of code which they wanted to do anyway | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | except that would not bloat the firmware | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | it could exist nicely in userspace. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | on top of a real OS. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| cubexyz | lots of hobbyists still use old Unix | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | hobbyists are ignored by the brainless suits who call the shots | Dec 07 02:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: even in old unix there are coff veration. | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | they take the hobbyists' code and then use it against the hobbyists | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | oh, and PE is without variations? | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | so the various stubs are just in my imagination? | Dec 07 02:57 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, recompile seems an easy solution | Dec 07 02:57 |
| MinceR | the one that prints it won't run in m$-dos, the one that loads it with .net (for no good reason) | Dec 07 02:57 |
| MinceR | the one they put on font files (which apparently need to be executable for some reason) | Dec 07 02:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 07 02:58 |
| cubexyz | I can run v6 on PDP-11 or Interdata, probably others too | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | ooh, "standard" | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | from m$ | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | will you also advocate OOXML too? | Dec 07 02:58 |
| cubexyz | so C language, recompile | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | it's a m$ "standard" | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | never mind that m$'s own implementations ignore their alleged standards | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | or that if you dropped its printout on someone, it can very well kill them | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | 035800 < oiaohm> MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | so those are not variations either? | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | i have an idea | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | put a PE stub in front of ELF and call it "standard" | Dec 07 02:59 |
| cubexyz | v5 -> PDP-11, v6 -> interdata 7/32 & PDP-11, v8 -> vax780, etc | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | and once you have code supporting that, remove the need for the stub | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | magic! | Dec 07 03:00 |
| cubexyz | pick your era | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | also, i'm sure EFI will handle _all_ variations of PE | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | there must be support for that in the mountains of bullshit that make up TianoCore | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | hell, they could just copy-paste winblows into TianoCore and end the whole charade | Dec 07 03:00 |
| cubexyz | my advice is to learn history... computer history | Dec 07 03:01 |
| MinceR | soon you'll be able to learn _all_ of computer history, because they will end computers | Dec 07 03:01 |
| MinceR | i wonder whose software will the parasitic luddites at NIST use when they take the computers away from the people whose people they keep ripping off | Dec 07 03:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to be correct EFI does not take all veriation of PE. Like .net stuff is out. EFI takes native executable forms of PE. | Dec 07 03:02 |
| MinceR | 035507 < oiaohm> MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 07 03:05 |
| MinceR | gcc? | Dec 07 03:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gcc supports 400 COFF formats. | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | should be more than enough for the idiots at NIST, then | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | except of course they want to use visual studio because they're idiots | Dec 07 03:06 |
| oiaohm | PE/COFF is formally a coff format. | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | i'm sure there are non-m$ formats in there | Dec 07 03:07 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are non MS formats in COFF but the problem is how much of a nightmare it comes. Like Linux coff a.out is differnet to solaris..... | Dec 07 03:07 |
| MinceR | i thought a.out was not COFF | Dec 07 03:08 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.out | Dec 07 03:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | a.out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 03:08 | |
| oiaohm | Linux early on used COFF format. | Dec 07 03:08 |
| cubexyz | Linux used a.out until kernel 1.2 | Dec 07 03:09 |
| cubexyz | I think up to v7 a.out was used | Dec 07 03:10 |
| cubexyz | Unix v7 that is | Dec 07 03:10 |
| cubexyz | so probably by v8 then it was COFF | Dec 07 03:11 |
| cubexyz | you have to go pretty far back to go back to a.out | Dec 07 03:12 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COFF as you can see here the COFF standard is super vague. | Dec 07 03:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | COFF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 03:12 | |
| oiaohm | Numbers of sections is not define. | Dec 07 03:12 |
| oiaohm | Lot of layout bits are not defined in COFF. | Dec 07 03:13 |
| oiaohm | Lets say COFF is wild wild west of binary format. | Dec 07 03:13 |
| MinceR | what are microsoft "standard"s, then? | Dec 07 03:13 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, what about Amiga? | Dec 07 03:13 |
| MinceR | (remember, their own implementations tend to violate the spec) | Dec 07 03:13 |
| cubexyz | it was called Hunk I think | Dec 07 03:14 |
| cubexyz | so we never had executable interoperability | Dec 07 03:14 |
| cubexyz | just source code porting... | Dec 07 03:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is the funny thing about PE. http://www.skyfree.org/linux/references/coff.pdf This is 1999 from Microsoft for PE but it exactly correct for all binary PE format back to the start to all the way up to current day. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even the extend for .net was done inside the PE spec. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Fairlly much the PE format is the only time Microsoft has written a spec and stuck to it. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure RT-11 executeable format would be different again | Dec 07 03:15 |
| MinceR | i have my doubts | Dec 07 03:16 |
| cubexyz | zaurus executable won't work on P3, etc | Dec 07 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Wine project loads all kinds of PE programs from accross the complete time frame. | Dec 07 03:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you might have you doubts but this is something that is just been tested over and over again. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| MinceR | wine project took a lot of work to support the craziness in winblows | Dec 07 03:17 |
| MinceR | and afaik it's still far from perfect | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | wine project has to follow down a lot of undocument apis true. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | but its never had a issue loading PE itself. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | PE format is nice and stable the reset of the Windows ABI will make you want to pull you hair out. | Dec 07 03:18 |
| oiaohm | reset/rest | Dec 07 03:18 |
| oiaohm | If you were after something COFF unforntatly PE/COFF is about your best choice. | Dec 07 03:18 |
| MinceR | an allegedly independent system that is allegedly supposed to boot other OS-es living entirely within microsoftland and not even trying to disguise that fact much is what makes me pull my hair out | Dec 07 03:18 |
| MinceR | along with the fact that it's a bloated, broken mess and i don't get much of a choice whether i get it if i buy a computer | Dec 07 03:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note BEOS and other OS have used PE/COFF as well. | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | where's BeOS now? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | what happened to them? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | which company did they preach "peaceful coexistence" with? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| oiaohm | BeOS is cloned in Open source. | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | why do people _never_ _ever_ learn from their own past mistakes? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| cubexyz | there's HaikuOS | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | Haiku is not BeOS | Dec 07 03:20 |
| cubexyz | it's not bad actually | Dec 07 03:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Haiku contains some of the developers from BeOS. | Dec 07 03:20 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 03:20 |
| oiaohm | OS projects take a long time to die. | Dec 07 03:20 |
| MinceR | i wonder what they'll say when restricted boot locks out Haiku | Dec 07 03:20 |
| cubexyz | "here we go again" ? | Dec 07 03:21 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 07 03:21 |
| MinceR | humanity needs to develop a strong AI, so that there will be an intelligence that can learn and improve | Dec 07 03:22 |
| MinceR | because humans sure as hell can't | Dec 07 03:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI%202_5.pdf If you read page 67 pdf pages or 18 by document page number you will notice PE used by EFI is not without being modified. | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | so they didn't even use the "standard" they picked | Dec 07 03:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it coded named PE+ yes you are meant to strip the dos header off. | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | which compiler will generate their custom "PE"? | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | the more i see of uefi the more it looks like a carnival of total failure | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Turns out gcc,llvm and msvc MinceR | Dec 07 03:27 |
| MinceR | it's a monument that demonstrates the opposite of engineering | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | The modifications they did were allowed under PE define MinceR | Dec 07 03:27 |
| MinceR | the culmination of the crApple/micro$oft dream | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Of course PE+ requires all the existing compliers at the time to use some extra header files. | Dec 07 03:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE was simple to modifiy would having to reinvent the wheel. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | the usual game | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | would/without. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | They did look at ELF | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | and said "nah, Not Invented Here" | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | or "our lord bill gates would disapprove" | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | No early prototype EFI tried both. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | and maybe made up some bullshit excuse, which is made ludicrous by their later decisions, as usual | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | Yes they ran into binary build issues with ELF. | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | Not from Microsoft. | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | From solaris and OS X | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | maybe they should have tried hiring some software engineers | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | ratcrap should have tried that too | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | then again, their goal was not to build stuff that works | Dec 07 03:31 |
| MinceR | but to break stuff that used to work | Dec 07 03:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: have you ever used a bios with verfifed boot over the time. | Dec 07 03:31 |
| MinceR | i don't think i have | Dec 07 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Also the existance of coreboot shows thing were not working right. | Dec 07 03:32 |
| oiaohm | bios mapping usb keyboards to PS2 interfaces and other horibles in background would cause random distruptions. | Dec 07 03:32 |
| MinceR | my newest x86 PC still supports "Legacy Boot" | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | sure, the mountain of bloat is still there, but at least it tries to pretend it's a computer | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | but that will eventually go away | Dec 07 03:33 |
| oiaohm | EFI start off as an attempt to remove all the emulation stuff between the OS and the hardware in the SMM | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | which they did not do | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | SMM is still supported | Dec 07 03:33 |
| oiaohm | SMM usage is way lower in a UEFI boot to OS than a BIOS boot to OS. | Dec 07 03:34 |
| oiaohm | But yes they did not meet their complete objective. | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | the usual [u]efi game: 1. proclaim that doing A is very important; 2. sacrifice everything sane in the name of A; 3. fail to do A | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | and they expect to be praised for this | Dec 07 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its a 90+ percent reduction of stuff in SMM | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | i don't care | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | it's a 100 percent reduction of the stuff general purpose computers exist for | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | they don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | they throw the baby into a furnace while carefully preserving the bathwater | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | and then they demand compliments for getting rid of the bathwater and keeping the baby | Dec 07 03:36 |
| oiaohm | SMM code from BIOS has been resposnable for random Windows/Linux/BSD/Solaris... crashs due to locking hardware under OS. | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | and then you say "but they did end up with a few drops of bathwater less!" | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | yes, and it's still there! | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | but now you also get bricked before the OS gets to load | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | is that progress? | Dec 07 03:36 |
| oiaohm | To be correct some UEFI systems in fact have nothing in SMM mode when OS is running. | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | i wish i could "work" with the standards set for these people | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | i would get paid lavishly while doing nothing | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | and doing nothing would still be better than what these people ever achieved | Dec 07 03:37 |
| oiaohm | Why UEFI has some is some hardware depends on software power management instead of having a power management microcontrol. | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | ooh, we have a "UEFI system" in the lab that runs nothing in SMM mode! | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | that's great, and i have a computer that runs what i want it to run | Dec 07 03:38 |
| oiaohm | There are some boards in the wild. | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | you know what else runs nothing in SMM mode? a rock! | Dec 07 03:38 |
| oiaohm | SMM mode is levels of nightmare. | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | which is incidentally a lot more useful than what these idiots at m$, intel and crApple are hacking up | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | yes, so is uefi. | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | and so is windows, and so is macos. | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | maybe it would be more productive to design a new architecture from scratch without the stuff we want to get rid of | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | instead of this pointless wankery | Dec 07 03:40 |
| MinceR | i bet it could be done with less work than it took to shit out TianoCore | Dec 07 03:41 |
| oiaohm | Unforantly I have to agree x86 platforms are insanely complex to start up. | Dec 07 03:41 |
| MinceR | good thing these ingenious people are working to fix that, right? | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | The big thing about UEFI documentation is that it starts showing people what people making BIOS for motherboard were doing in secert. | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | so far they've managed to make them even more insanely complex to start up | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | and less reliable | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | progress! | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | The start up process was insanely complex MinceR | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | Just you had no documentation about it. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | what does it say about these people that their work accomplished less than actually doing nothing would have? | Dec 07 03:43 |
| oiaohm | Read coreboot documentation on starting up. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| oiaohm | You will find it about as complex as UEFI. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| cubexyz | it is complex | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | try checking the _code_ | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | they don't have to do it in secret anymore because they'll have the government ban general purpose computers from the use of us slaves? | Dec 07 03:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot and UEFI if you look at code are about equally complex. | Dec 07 03:44 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 07 03:44 |
| oiaohm | Reality starting an x86 system is a pure pain in ass. | Dec 07 03:44 |
| MinceR | why make it more painful? | Dec 07 03:44 |
| cubexyz | there's the old ISA/PCI stuff as well | Dec 07 03:45 |
| MinceR | is more pain better than less pain? | Dec 07 03:45 |
| oiaohm | Shockily UEFI is less painful than old bios. Coreboot is also modular with items like services. | Dec 07 03:45 |
| MinceR | having to jump through hoops to boot a secure OS is "less painful" than not having to do so? | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | is this some sort of bizarro world? | Dec 07 03:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically the only way to make starting an x86 less painful would be redesign the complete thing. | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | COMPLEXITY IS SIMPLICITY | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | WAR IS PEACE | Dec 07 03:46 |
| oiaohm | Even in bios you have to run checksums on parts. | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | FREEDOM IS SLAVERY | Dec 07 03:46 |
| cubexyz | go raspberry pi then | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH | Dec 07 03:47 |
| cubexyz | at least it's not x86 | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | for some of my workload, i already have | Dec 07 03:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: signing checking was going on in old school bioses behind you back. | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | but some of it probably won't work on pi | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and yet old school bioses would boot any os i want to | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | without asking | Dec 07 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Most of the UEFI does is put what was going on in background front and centre. | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | without putting a ticking time bomb in the process | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | great | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | when will they fix it? | Dec 07 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Old bios had lot of ticking time bombs. | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | also, when will they take out the unnecessary shit that broke it even more? | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | also, on what basis should i have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to fix things? | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | The secure boot signing pushed through to OS is just extending what was going on. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | so far, they've made things more broken and proudly proclaimed "HERP DERP FIXED NOW!" | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Do you remember BIOS that refused to boot if your MBR had changed. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | yes, extending it in a way that fucks up computers for the people who buy them | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | no, i don't | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: they exist. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | i happily changed MBRs and kept on booting | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | yes, uefi appliances exist too | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Most bioses had the switch turned off but some came with it on. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| cubexyz | there was an MBR protection thing I think | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | and the way things are going, soon there won't be any x86 PCs made that do what their alleged owner tells them to | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes MBR protection. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| cubexyz | boot sector watchdog | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep another name for the same thing. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | So firmware checking your loader is not exactly new. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | yes, they're good at coming up with nice-sounding names for misfeatures | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | they even call DRM "security" | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | even though it's the opposite, if anything | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | can we not focus instead on what things _are_? | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | I had the horible case of a motherboard that would only accept a Microsoft MBR. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| cubexyz | which motherboard was that? | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | and Microsoft boot sector. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| cubexyz | which BIOS was that? :) | Dec 07 03:51 |
| MinceR | i'm not terribly interested on what the Party wishes i believed | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: some rebranded foxcomm made board cheap. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: AMI BIOS | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | cheap | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | so even they knew it was crap | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | back then | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | now it's "securiteh" | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | I like Tyan, MSI, and maybe ECS | Dec 07 03:52 |
| oiaohm | The reality was there was no option to get around it. | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | still have to try ECS though | Dec 07 03:52 |
| oiaohm | At least UEFI does define options. | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you would probably have to rewrite the BIOS to fix it | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | option 1: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what m$ tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 07 03:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: vendor not providing updates and board not supported by anyone else. It taught me what the worst case was. I scraped the board. | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | option 2: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what crApple tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | option 3: have no computers or things that pretend they're computers | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | and that's it | Dec 07 03:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you probably would have had to give AMI major $$$ to fix that | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | thanks, uefi! | Dec 07 03:53 |
| cubexyz | not worth it | Dec 07 03:54 |
| oiaohm | From my point of view UEFI is at least workable. Pain in Ass but workable. | Dec 07 03:54 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I don't think I own an UEFI computer :) | Dec 07 03:54 |
| MinceR | i don't see why you want pain in the ass | Dec 07 03:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the UEFI ones I have do have replaced PK and KEKs. | Dec 07 03:54 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, I don't ... for sure I don't | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | i also don't see why you believe they'll stop _just_ short of making it impossible to run something not broken on the alleged computer | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | after putting all the infrastructure in place to force the alleged computer to be just another bot in m$'s (or crApple's) botnet | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | it's a lot like cancerd, btw | Dec 07 03:56 |
| MinceR | something complex and broken is forced on you without giving you a choice, and they claim it's simple and better | Dec 07 03:56 |
| cubexyz | you can put coreboot on quite a few Gigabyte motherboards | Dec 07 03:57 |
| MinceR | btw, 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manual | Dec 07 03:57 |
| oiaohm | There is still on going debate if bootloader should be able to ship with KEK to add to boot system after user approval. | Dec 07 03:59 |
| oiaohm | UEFI still could improve to less painful. | Dec 07 04:00 |
| MinceR | that's the wrong thing to debate | Dec 07 04:00 |
| MinceR | yes, setting the whole thing on fire and having the people responsible do menial work instead would improve it to less painful | Dec 07 04:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: with BIOS we had random crash pain due to what it was doing in secret. UEFI we have secure boot pain. So we swapped on pain for another. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | replacing governments with ones that actually enforce antitrust law would also be an improvement | Dec 07 04:02 |
| oiaohm | Mind you UEFI has improved from starting location. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: thanks, but i'm not interested in trying out various instruments of torture on myself. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | that only means the starting location was allegedly even worse | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | as long as it's worse than bios, i'm not interested in it | Dec 07 04:03 |
| MinceR | i'm not interested in replacing things with worse things | Dec 07 04:03 |
| MinceR | this is also why i'm not an ideal m$ customer | Dec 07 04:03 |
| oiaohm | http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html This is what it was like in 2012 | Dec 07 04:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rodsbooks.com | Managing EFI Boot Loaders for Linux: Dealing with Secure Boot | Dec 07 04:04 | |
| oiaohm | Notice no means to clear the PK or set your own KEK. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| oiaohm | So now you had to use a shim loader that you had to have signed by Microsoft. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | no, in 2012 you could easily buy an x86 PC that could at least do "Legacy Boot" | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | that's going away | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | and that's not an improvement. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | it's the opposite of an improvement. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Even in 2012 there was EFI boards without legacy boot. | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | yes, and even in 2012 there was human excrement | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | yet i did not attempt to use that to do my computing | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | i used a general purpose computer. | Dec 07 04:05 |
| oiaohm | Please note legacy boot on old EFI. EFI has still run it just loads some like SEABIOS as the loader. | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | which is bad | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | but still not as bad as forced restricted boot | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | or restricted boot on by default with the switch cleverly hidden | Dec 07 04:06 |
| oiaohm | The idea is to push legacy bios to the EFI partition. | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | they're so clever when it comes to fucking customers over | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | To make it simpler to update. | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | why are they never clever in a constructive way? | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | finally a hdd malfunction can brick the pc | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | just the thing i wanted! | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | No you still have EFI to fall back on. | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | i have something unworkable to fall back on | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | so my brick can also function as a brick | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | how handy! | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Most annoying thing about some EFI implemtnations is boot from internal harddrive only. | Dec 07 04:08 |
| oiaohm | No USB drivers in firmware. | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | yay, progress | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | it must take lots of ingenuity and hard work to fuck up things that used to work | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | considering the worship intel, m$ and redcrap receive for doing exactly that | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | you'd think any retard with a sledgehammer could do it | Dec 07 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Rasbery pi will not boot from USB out box either. | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | at least it will still boot from microsd, which is removable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | easily removable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | and replaceable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| oiaohm | sata harddrive is removable. | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | you might lose your warranty for removing it | Dec 07 04:11 |
| MinceR | if it's a laptop, you might have to remove pretty much everything else before you can remove it | Dec 07 04:11 |
| MinceR | but who cares, when the first priority is fucking over the users | Dec 07 04:11 |
| oiaohm | NIST laptop requirements have harddrive in individual removable compartment. | Dec 07 04:12 |
| oiaohm | For data protection reasons. | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | somehow that particular requirement they're not as keen on enforcing as restricted boot | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | i wonder why | Dec 07 04:13 |
| oiaohm | To be correct they are keen on enforcing that. | Dec 07 04:13 |
| MinceR | am i hallucinating all these laptops that don't have it, then? | Dec 07 04:13 |
| MinceR | http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-06 | Dec 07 04:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-06 | Dilbert by Scott Adams | Dec 07 04:14 | |
| oiaohm | 60 percent of laptop made have indivudal compartments for harddrive | Dec 07 04:14 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 07 04:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist alone does not get you to 100 percent. | Dec 07 04:15 |
| MinceR | it doesn't get me anywhere, except into hell | Dec 07 04:15 |
| MinceR | where do you want to go today? never mind, you're not getting there, ever! | Dec 07 04:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its taking what vendors have market share then looking at construction. HP, Toshibias.... Most of the big boys most models of laptops obey NIST. Exception in a big way is Apple who does what every they like. | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | yet crApple jumped on [u]efi before most others | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | so NIST gets their way when it's hugely destructive | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | and not if it's (probably by mistake) constructive | Dec 07 04:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Apple laptop try to remove harddrive. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | and still, mandating a separate HDD compartment is no excuse for breaking booting from removable devices | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: smash on rock, sort fragments. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | bonus: it still retains all of its original functionality, since it's crApple | Dec 07 04:18 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not say break booting from removable harddrive they just have not given a solid ruling on that. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | and if you're lucky, the battery will blow the whole thing apart for you | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | ooh, that's so nice of them | Dec 07 04:19 |
| oiaohm | I am hoping NIST rules that booting from removable drives has to work. | Dec 07 04:19 |
| MinceR | maybe they should find a career they can perform adequately | Dec 07 04:19 |
| MinceR | for example, they could try cleaning toilets | Dec 07 04:19 |
| oiaohm | That is fairly much what NIST does from a security point of view. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| oiaohm | The attempt to clean up after disaster to prevent them happening again write rules. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | i'm hoping that when they manage to get humanity to exterminate itself, it goes extra painful for them. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | actually, as shown above, they have no clue about security | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | (no, locking people into winblows is not security) | Dec 07 04:20 |
| oiaohm | NIST was the one that allowed us to load our own KEK into secureboot so we don't have to run Windows. | Dec 07 04:21 |
| MinceR | NIST was the one that (according to you) forced restricted boot on us in the first place | Dec 07 04:21 |
| MinceR | without restricted boot, it was easy to not run winblows | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | so they didn't do shit about that, they just made it more difficult | Dec 07 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Yes but they did not think that anyone one be mad enough to make there design on a general PC restricted to 1 OS. | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | "they did not think" | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | that's the point | Dec 07 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Lets just say NIST really lacks in the future looking department and is reactive. | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | people who do not think should not be given such power. | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | yes, they lack in the department that, among other things, looks into the future | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | we call that department the "brain" | Dec 07 04:23 |
| oiaohm | I do agree that NIST need to have a little more forward planing skills | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | humanity has managed to put destructive, psychotic, parasitic idiots in charge of the IT industry. | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | no, they need to be eliminated. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST is not attempt to be our enemy. But their level of incompetence is dangerous. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | exactly | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | such incompetence can not be fixed by adding a few skills | Dec 07 04:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST gives too much faith that ODM will do the right things. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | then they're utterly idiotic | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | ODMs have never done the right things | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | especially not under m$/crApple control | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Nothing NIST recommends is without reason. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | So there is some thinking. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Just is backwards looking thinking. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| MinceR | so, a PRNG does "thinking" too? | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | The hard part thinking NIST is recommending things based on historic events means if we ingore them we are doomed to repeat those historic events. | Dec 07 04:26 |
| oiaohm | Security is never simple | Dec 07 04:27 |
| MinceR | then perhaps we should stop putting simpletons in charge. | Dec 07 04:27 |
| oiaohm | There is a old saying. You can have userablity or secuirty but not both. | Dec 07 04:27 |
| MinceR | and with NIST, you will have neither! | Dec 07 04:28 |
| oiaohm | NIST puts down the recommendations. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | they should not put them down | Dec 07 04:28 |
| oiaohm | Then intel and others are meant to implement those recommendation. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | they should put them up. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | where the sun doesn't shine. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | recommendations that lead to uefi with restricted boot are utter garbage | Dec 07 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Issue we have is those implemting NIST recommendations are not exactly doing the best job. | Dec 07 04:29 |
| MinceR | that's putting it lightly | Dec 07 04:29 |
| oiaohm | We cannot ingnore the need to protect firmware and bootloader and OS due to attacks that have happened. | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | they have done exactly none of those things | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | they have apparently taken part in such attacks, however | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | and so have the NSA. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | against the interests of the people they parasitize. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: implementers or NIST you will find a lot of your problem is with Implementors and its NIST who have forced implementers to come a little saner. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | it's not even "a little saner" | Dec 07 04:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think first EFI no control of PK and no control of KEK so you could be truly locked out. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | stop comparing current uefi to early efi and start comparing it to bios | Dec 07 04:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: bricking the computer can also lock you out | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: or my case with the must be MS MBR and Boot loader. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | That was bios. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | ODM were going the wrong way in the time of BIOS. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| MinceR | there's a difference between some ODMs fucking up and fascists mandating something fucked up by design. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| MinceR | in the former case, the user can win. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| MinceR | in the latter case, the user can only lose. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Please note if someone designed a replacement to UEFI and it had all the features NIST lists NIST accept it. Coreboot used in chromebooks with locked write switch passes nist. Yes user can unlock it and change the keys if they wish. | Dec 07 04:35 |
| MinceR | yet nobody else uses coreboot | Dec 07 04:36 |
| MinceR | see above, under ODMs being controlled by m$ and crApple | Dec 07 04:36 |
| MinceR | also, i still don't give a flying fuck about what the NIST accepts | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | coreboot in chromebook still checked loader against signing key. | Dec 07 04:37 |
| MinceR | which loader? | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | While not in developer mode. | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | the chromeos loader from google is signed MinceR | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | afaik you can remove the whole notion of "developer mode" by replacing the writeable part of the firmware with your own | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | also, developer mode is easy to enable | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden switch | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden feature that's activated by removing some keys somewhere or by playing with the system clock | Dec 07 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Chromebook is NIST conforming and userfriendly ish | Dec 07 04:39 |
| MinceR | chromebooks do things that, if you were only listening to NIST and m$, you'd think were impossible. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes replacing the keys in a chromebook is can be a total pain in ass. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | If you listesned only to NIST chromebooks are possible. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: listerning to Microsoft/Intel you might get the wrong point of view. | Dec 07 04:40 |
| MinceR | developer mode isn't even secret, it's advertised, afaik | Dec 07 04:41 |
| MinceR | though allegedly that too fucks up warranty | Dec 07 04:42 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not encougage secrects about security features. | Dec 07 04:43 |
| MinceR | again, you'd never guess that if you looked at uefi | Dec 07 04:43 |
| oiaohm | You have to look at everything NIST approves of to get a clear picture about them. | Dec 07 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Android verified boot is also NIST conforming. | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | seeing them approve of the clusterfuck called uefi gives me sufficient information | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | i wouldn't want android verified boot on my x86 pc | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | android is enough of a pain in the ass on mobile devices | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | especially since they started playing with mountspaces | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST has no focus on userablity and it shows. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | they don't seem to have focus on anything | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | except maybe the money they get from m$ | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | They do have focus on historic security failures. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not get money from Microsoft. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | they're committed to creating more of those? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | how do you know? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | are bribes generally publicized? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist case yes accepting any gifts without formally declaring them risks of all things prosecution for treason and sent to a mil prison who knows where. | Dec 07 04:48 |
| MinceR | sounds like a foolproof method to avoid corruption | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | we have the recipe after all | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | so we must have stopped corruption everywhere | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | wait a minute | Dec 07 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Back in 2010 some NIST inspectors got done and end up in prison. | Dec 07 04:51 |
| MinceR | ones who weren't careful | Dec 07 04:52 |
| MinceR | or took bribes from the wrong party | Dec 07 04:52 |
| oiaohm | NIST is audted by FBI, CIA and NCIS. | Dec 07 04:52 |
| MinceR | if only they could also get the NSA on board | Dec 07 04:53 |
| oiaohm | NSA is suspected as well but confirming that is a bit hard. | Dec 07 04:53 |
| MinceR | "That's crazy. The government doesn't lie to people. " | Dec 07 04:53 |
| oiaohm | Of course the group writing rules for USA governement secuirty is going to be one of the most audited places on earth. | Dec 07 04:54 |
| MinceR | or it would be, if the people responsible actually cared and knew what they were doing | Dec 07 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Being the most audited place on earth does not mean the people there are 100 percent competent. | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, neither is often the case | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | case in point: NSA not caring that they fuck up security for the people who their bills | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | case in point #2: NIST (allegedly) propping up restricted boot | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | s/who /who pay / | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | No it was not allegedly I brought in the PDF for cubexyz before. | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST who suggested secureboot idea. | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | How to implement that NIST only gave a rough overview and left it up to the implemtenter to fill in the holes. | Dec 07 04:57 |
| MinceR | and then approved the horrible mess it led to | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not approve the first EFI stuff where you could not change the platform key and could not use your own KEK keys. | Dec 07 04:58 |
| MinceR | when government organizations regularly do the opposite of what they're supposed to be doing, isn't it time to shut them down? | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so NIST did not approve the complete horible mess. NIST approved a slightly improved horible mess. | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | which is still a horrible mess | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | and still worse than what we had before the whole thing | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | and yet it's being increasingly forced on us | Dec 07 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Of course due to NIST being history looking they are still free to force more rules down the system. | Dec 07 05:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: thing to remember NIST is one of the parties who can create rules that ODM will follow. Problem is is working how to get them to push rules to make our life better. | Dec 07 05:03 |
| MinceR | that sounds extremely unlikely to work | Dec 07 05:03 |
| MinceR | it would be better to stop them from messing with our equipment | Dec 07 05:04 |
| oiaohm | There is an attempt at momement to get NIST to mandate open source firmware. | Dec 07 05:04 |
| MinceR | or you could try firing everyone who "works" there and hire people who know what they're doing in their place | Dec 07 05:04 |
| MinceR | i can see how successful that's going to be | Dec 07 05:04 |
| oiaohm | There is also questions at the FCC on the same matter. | Dec 07 05:06 |
| MinceR | well, yeah | Dec 07 05:06 |
| oiaohm | The reality here is if FCC and NIST madated Open source ODM would just have to suck it up. | Dec 07 05:06 |
| MinceR | after the whole "HERP DERP LOCK DOWN THE ROUTERS" bullshit from them | Dec 07 05:06 |
| oiaohm | Locking down the routers failed security assement. | Dec 07 05:07 |
| MinceR | i'd rather try 3d-printing my own IC-s | Dec 07 05:07 |
| oiaohm | So now the arguement has flipped on ear. | Dec 07 05:07 |
| MinceR | sounds like it's more likely to work | Dec 07 05:07 |
| oiaohm | Please note NIST got mixed up with the FCC over the routers. | Dec 07 05:08 |
| MinceR | well, at least they can't fuck things up even more for us while they're bickering with each other | Dec 07 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Historically NIST has not exactly liked closed source. | Dec 07 05:09 |
| oiaohm | Its more of a tollerance. | Dec 07 05:10 |
| MinceR | i wonder what changed their mind | Dec 07 05:10 |
| MinceR | $omething'$ telling me it'$ the exact $ame thing that ha$ done thi$ in every other ca$e | Dec 07 05:10 |
| oiaohm | No its not exactly money. It is more hurding cats. | Dec 07 05:12 |
| MinceR | or the usual fascist assumption that concentrating all power in the usian government/megacorporate complex will make things more secure for them | Dec 07 05:13 |
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| Anawn | Anyone seen TheMadHatter? | Dec 07 09:05 |
| Anawn | !seen TheMadHatter | Dec 07 09:07 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/673667999325405185 | Dec 07 09:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives https://t.co/fL3JxGOFNo #suepo #epo | Dec 07 09:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/horakanwalt/status/673633686521298948 https://twitter.com/michaelhorak/status/673625762294034433 | Dec 07 09:40 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives | Techrights | Dec 07 09:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@horakanwalt: RT PatentWire "EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/q366gJPflp" | Dec 07 09:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” | Techrights | Dec 07 09:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@michaelhorak: RT PatentWire "No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to… https://t.co/JH7oNVjy2T" | Dec 07 09:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights | Dec 07 09:40 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805320196595712 | Dec 07 10:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/fiRtFKoqgD | Dec 07 10:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Article Highlights #EPO ’s Capitalist Venture Tendencies, Seeking to Just Maximize Profit, Irrespective of Public https://t.co/dOwKDwEnGl | Dec 07 10:06 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805616847171585 | Dec 07 10:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/4QzoOvqgoi | Dec 07 10:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World https://t.co/yoyptSZ7N3 | Dec 07 10:07 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673806178703552512 | Dec 07 10:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw E il membro Italiano ? https://t.co/wBGe6ji2mM | Dec 07 10:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The Tail That Wags the Dog: How an EPO President Virtually Controls the Administrative Council (AC) https://t.co/vGmM5p6K2I #epo | Dec 07 10:10 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/673813299788689408 | Dec 07 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/tlZLLjhcXN | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Steam for Linux Now Correctly Shows Only #SteamOS / #Linux Games in Big Picture Mode https://t.co/OaNDNALOoR | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- (Re-tweeted by Aid_Rostov) | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673817700255326208 | Dec 07 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz you are still WRONG | Dec 07 10:57 | |
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| __martin__ | schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPO | Dec 07 17:14 |
| __martin__ | meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 17:15 |
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| MinceR | lol, budapest | Dec 07 17:21 |
| MinceR | their punishment is living in budapest | Dec 07 17:21 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673856477791129601 | Dec 07 17:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal @ruskin147 https://t.co/tBs8KeGHwu | Dec 07 17:54 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal | Techrights | Dec 07 17:54 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/673862322515939328 | Dec 07 17:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Why is it when ppl talk Banks having a "mobile wallet" I feel like some1's got there hands in my pockets?! Tap&go is bad enough | Dec 07 17:55 | |
| schestowitz | Indeed | Dec 07 17:55 |
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| schestowitz | I'm starting to just assume that someone at the BBC is suppressing the article and might wish to point this out if I don't hear back... | Dec 07 18:17 |
| schestowitz | 6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:15] <__martin__> meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | Not a big different | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | *difference | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:14] <__martin__> schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPO | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | No source, sounds new to me, maybe not credible or unlikely to become a potent thing | Dec 07 18:19 |
| schestowitz | like OpenISO amid OOXML scandals | Dec 07 18:19 |
| schestowitz | Never took off | Dec 07 18:19 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/theGuruWithin/status/673931988647067648 | Dec 07 18:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@theGuruWithin: .@Crypt0nymous .@schestowitz .@democracynow .@Freedom_Daily .@RT_com Bernie & Families First Dreamers FULL #idwp https://t.co/LpahP0uBTI | Dec 07 18:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673939867559182336 | Dec 07 19:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz @Sheikh_al_Touar Rather damning, that. | Dec 07 19:03 | |
| schestowitz | \upcWe just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 19:53 |
| schestowitz | We just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 19:53 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 20:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz this cries out for real stories about how quality is pursued. For example. | Dec 07 20:08 | |
| MinceR | (javascript) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/05/21/quiz-just-how-kafkaesque-is-the-court-that-oversees-nsa-spying/ | Dec 07 20:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | Quiz: Just how Kafkaesque is the court that oversees NSA spying? - The Washington Post | Dec 07 20:56 | |
| schestowitz | Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://avi.alkalay.net/2015/12/open-source-swift.html No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 07 20:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-avi.alkalay.net | Is Open Source Swift a good thing ? « Avi Alkalay | Dec 07 20:59 | |
| MinceR | typical crApple quality | Dec 07 21:00 |
| schestowitz | openssl patches for Ubuntu | Dec 07 21:11 |
| schestowitz | Just in: http://lwn.net/Articles/667035/rss | Dec 07 21:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Security advisories for Monday [LWN.net] | Dec 07 21:11 | |
| schestowitz | "Ubuntu has updated cups-filters (15.10, 15.04, 14.04: code execution), foomatic-filters (12.04: code execution), and openssl (multiple vulnerabilities). " | Dec 07 21:11 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/07/apple-open-source-first/ | Dec 07 21:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-9to5mac.com | Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism | 9to5Mac | Dec 07 21:16 | |
| MinceR | wow | Dec 07 21:16 |
| MinceR | that's got to be a first | Dec 07 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 21:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673973548113895424 | Dec 07 21:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Thnx waited for this post :) ...think youre a rich but busy social type + not happy of gov.politics . cool guy u lol https://t.co/2EtRhlZQsP | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Day 7 — Unicode, Perl 6, and You https://t.co/YSKIKLYZ76 #perl #unicode | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| schestowitz | I don't like politics | Dec 07 21:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/673974518113681408 | Dec 07 21:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz No, let's put Windows [N]XP in every automotive engine. (The games will keep the car amused while idling.) | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 07 21:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MCCob/status/673975611774345216 | Dec 07 21:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MCCob: @schestowitz @AlexArchambault any proof that they _only_ use not encrypted communication ? ISIS use encryption | Dec 07 21:27 | |
| MinceR | i didn't know BSoDs were signs of amusement | Dec 07 21:27 |
| schestowitz | People who carry out successful attacks evidently don't use these tools | Dec 07 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673975763612409857 | Dec 07 21:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: True noticed that, on paper they are perfect...but not socialy adaptive knowledges or patience to catch, sucseed https://t.co/g1HWWcu9Nc | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #Security lacks patience https://t.co/ZUWbHOzKkX | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/673976106744057856 | Dec 07 21:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: Bwahaha, hilarious. https://t.co/lwONgsRHok | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978026938507265 | Dec 07 21:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Logic, wait, you're not a member of the Reality-Based Community are you? You'd never make it as a policymaker! | Dec 07 21:31 | |
| schestowitz | Sarcasm community | Dec 07 21:31 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978403549265922 | Dec 07 21:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Indeed. | Dec 07 21:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/slimekat/status/673979096569937921 | Dec 07 21:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@slimekat: @schestowitz @kstallett @andrewtraviss lol | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673979261833912324 | Dec 07 21:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Me 2 realy hate them, personal issues. Never studied english but can exptess profoundly the rights of people :) thnx https://t.co/udoOONPVZj | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @blankebelg I don't like politics | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673980481105485824 | Dec 07 21:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz They should probably also ban human to human interaction. All this will mean we forget the gov forgot to track known extremists | Dec 07 21:47 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ReystarTech/status/673985338797334533 | Dec 07 22:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ReystarTech: RT @schestowitz: #Google To Launch #Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? https://t.co/zhXLddy4DC #linux | Dec 07 22:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidheadlines.com | Google To Launch Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? | Androidheadlines.com | Dec 07 22:06 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 07 22:36 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 22:36:12 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 22:36:37 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 07 22:36 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 07 22:36 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 07 22:36 | |
| cubexyz | you don't think bsods like this one are funny? | Dec 07 22:53 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/bsod-microsoft-vista.jpg | Dec 07 22:54 |
| cubexyz | when they can't keep a demo from bsoding it's funny | Dec 07 22:55 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 07 22:55 |
| schestowitz | they should replace the blue screen with all pixels blacked | Dec 07 22:58 |
| schestowitz | then they can insist the photos were taken while the monitors were switched off | Dec 07 22:58 |
| cubexyz | haha | Dec 07 22:58 |
| schestowitz | it's like a rebrand of BSOD | Dec 07 22:59 |
| schestowitz | to evade the negative press | Dec 07 22:59 |
| schestowitz | and the stigma | Dec 07 22:59 |
| MinceR | they already tried automatically rebooting when the BSoD pops up | Dec 07 23:00 |
| cubexyz | this one is funny too: | Dec 07 23:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg | Dec 07 23:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg ) | Dec 07 23:00 | |
| cubexyz | "have you tried rebooting?" | Dec 07 23:02 |
| cubexyz | yes I did, and it bsoded again in the same spot | Dec 07 23:02 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674002953989136385 | Dec 07 23:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What's happened? | Dec 07 23:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674004469944819712 | Dec 07 23:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What? | Dec 07 23:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674009346095882240 | Dec 07 23:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz alibi? | Dec 07 23:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/azrilxx/status/674015748306558976 | Dec 08 00:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@azrilxx: Until they tackle Exchange, can't see them fighting Outlook any time soon https://t.co/VU5ddEqxw1 | Dec 08 00:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Potential cooperation between #LibreOffice and #Thunderbird https://t.co/cHOrphmdVH | Dec 08 00:05 | |
| cubexyz | I'm happy I'm off windows | Dec 08 00:15 |
| cubexyz | things seem to be a lot worst now then the win2k era | Dec 08 00:16 |
| cubexyz | forced download and install of windows 10 just seems totally wrong | Dec 08 00:16 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017647340756993 https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017917592301568 | Dec 08 00:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: ничего,. Паства будет помнить этот факт и передавать из уст в уста)) https://t.co/MBeYw5qEsv | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @perfectlysoft @matt_clarkson @github But i agree with https://t.co/OUkfiedrZt | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://t.co/2N2p6AKP9W No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 08 00:32 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898137 | Dec 08 01:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Did the #EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? http://techrights.org/2015/12/07/bbc-and-epo/ | Dec 08 01:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Did the EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? | Techrights | Dec 08 01:49 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/674157378468749312 | Dec 08 09:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz basically everyone else has to do the BS verification just so that they have a stick to go after a few specific targets | Dec 08 09:37 | |
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| A_Friend | Hardon vs EPO https://www.docdroid.net/xw8mJzt/20151120-4th-letter-ef2jk-council-on-institutional-harassment-redacted.pdf.html | Dec 08 09:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.docdroid.net | 20151120 4th Letter EF2JK_Council on Institutional harassment redacted.pdf - DocDroid | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674162468848017408 | Dec 08 09:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Pirate Bay’s .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification https://t.co/q5AvqB9j7u #icann #censorship | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> torrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay's .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification - TorrentFreak | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| schestowitz | A_Friend: I know | Dec 08 09:46 |
| schestowitz | article on its way | Dec 08 09:47 |
| A_Friend | ok, thanks | Dec 08 09:47 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674164461406695424 | Dec 08 09:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz Lots of people there actually has felt as USSR for years. | Dec 08 09:58 | |
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| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/boards-of-appeal-tell-ac-we-were-never.html?showComment=1449576934490 | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Tony Soprano said... | Dec 08 13:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Boards of Appeal tell AC: we were never consulted | Dec 08 13:13 | |
| schestowitz | SUEPO “is not a trade union, it’s a mafia-type entity” according to Battistelli. | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Well that clearly explains the need for forensic investigators ... | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 13:13 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674223728742555649 | Dec 08 14:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz "Mannaggia! ...Forget about it! ....hey boss, should we call Luca Brasi and have him take care of this?" | Dec 08 14:04 | |
| schestowitz | LOL | Dec 08 14:04 |
| schestowitz | Librem send me a test unit to review (and return) | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | excerpt: | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completed | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confident | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard to | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > All the best, | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | I have been following -- and covering -- Qubes for a number of years. I suppose these guys noticed. It sounds like a very legitimising partner because Qubes are known for some high quality security research, all the way down to boot sequences if not silicon (one of the points for which Librem got flack). | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | My wife doesn't requiee security and privacy to the same degree I do because I currently deal with some nasty organisations that hired spies to go after me (confirmed) and try to unmask my sources. They also sent me legal letters in an effort to bully me (not sure if you saw this in the media as recently as weeks ago). | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | I intend to test the unit from the perspective of an activist/journalist... | Dec 08 14:14 |
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| schestowitz | two identical posts with the title "What Are Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) ? How Can You Benefit Out Of MOOCs?" were published this morning. In succession. I unpublished one of them to avoid the duplication, hoping it'll be just fine (I checked to be sure that both entries were identical) | Dec 08 14:29 |
| schestowitz | (tux machines) | Dec 08 14:30 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674235164256575488 | Dec 08 14:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @reportrai3 @t_montinari @AltalexNews https://t.co/TuWQlmf6gx | Dec 08 14:36 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: People who say I write too much about the #epo probably don't grasp the severity of the matter. Too fast? As fact as I receive material... | Dec 08 14:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674238950765166593 | Dec 08 14:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: Jesus Christ.... No decency, no dignity, no honour at all. https://t.co/ffS7yeYRhG | Dec 08 14:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: In J’accuse of Team #battistelli at #epo the spinners try to paint managers as saving staff from suicides, blame in on SUEPO. Guffaw! | Dec 08 14:48 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898379 | Dec 08 14:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Based on action/response logic, #france should NOT ban Tor or Free Wi-Fi but ban -- wait for it -- SMS. That's what these guys used. | Dec 08 14:58 | |
| schestowitz | "I think that the attack was a happy coincidence for the French Government to go ahead with plans made long before. And that if it was not a false flag." | Dec 08 14:58 |
| schestowitz | "Very clever point, Roy!" | Dec 08 14:58 |
| schestowitz | "similar to other attacks we've seen..." | Dec 08 14:58 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/674261557304541184 | Dec 08 16:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/fo9vc7AUk2 | Dec 08 16:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How 1,699 #Linux #games can give #SteamOS a boost https://t.co/8WbG9iS6YL and #debian by extension | Dec 08 16:19 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/redlocal/status/674272550004891648 | Dec 08 17:01 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@redlocal: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZG6NTArhYI #ubuntu https://t.co/CrxpoURMzS | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> linux.softpedia.com | elementary Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's Launchpad to GitHub | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZNEPeVoykY #ubuntu | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: What's a "National Front"? | Dec 08 17:11 |
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| schestowitz | in France | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | Their Nazi party basically | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | with very racist statements towards all sorts of groups | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | not just Muslims | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | They're now the leading party | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | thanks to ISIS | Dec 08 17:13 |
| schestowitz | #google national front france nazis | Dec 08 17:13 |
| schestowitz | !google national front france nazis | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - National Front (France) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France) | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Jean-Marie Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Marine Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Far-right National Front triumph in France - Daily Mail | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638965/Massive-victory-French-far-right-National-Front-record-quarter-vote-Euro-elections.html | Dec 08 17:13 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: France… it degrades pretty quickly. | Dec 08 17:14 |
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| XRevan86 | schestowitz: I don't think this is really ISIL "fault" as it's people's choice how to respond to terrorism. | Dec 08 17:22 |
| MinceR | terrorism and the cults that lead to it are also people's choices | Dec 08 17:34 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: Indeed. | Dec 08 17:34 |
| schestowitz | !google mirage embargo france | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - France–Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%25E2%2580%2593Israel_relations | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5 | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - France - The Six-Day War | http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/france.asp | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - French History and Current Attitudes to Israel - An interview with ... | http://www.jcpa.org/israel-europe/ier-eytan-05.htm | Dec 08 17:38 |
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| arossdotme | sounds like, to quote a first person shooter game: "Terrorists Win" | Dec 08 18:55 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674301341313953792 | Dec 08 18:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Actually it was the USSR who backed North Vietnam. China did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 in fact. | Dec 08 18:59 | |
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| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/windows-cracked.jpg | Dec 09 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/mikelm31/status/674397349163220992 | Dec 09 01:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mikelm31: @schestowitz @REPUBSRFUBAR @japantimes ## Yes and why he stole 1.3 Trillion from Social Security ! And started this mess over lies! | Dec 09 01:17 | |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2438351/microsoft-begins-migrating-office-365-smb-customers-to-new-plans | Dec 09 10:16 |
| schestowitz | Not sure what to do with this link. Maybe I miss the key part... | Dec 09 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theinquirer.net | Microsoft begins migrating Office 365 SMB customers to new plans- The Inquirer | Dec 09 10:16 | |
| cubexyz | I'm sure Microsoft is screwing over their customers as usual | Dec 09 10:27 |
| cubexyz | padding their revenue stream as usual | Dec 09 10:27 |
| cubexyz | it's all about the subscription plans | Dec 09 10:29 |
| cubexyz | pay M$ forever | Dec 09 10:31 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 09 10:32 |
| schestowitz | but that's not news ;-) | Dec 09 10:32 |
| cubexyz | probably people aren't upgrading fast enough, thus Office 365 | Dec 09 10:34 |
| cubexyz | also Office 365 Home Premium needs windows 7 | Dec 09 10:38 |
| cubexyz | can't have people not upgrading don't you know | Dec 09 10:38 |
| cubexyz | also the cloud will keep the NSA guys happy | Dec 09 10:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz the question I have is when will Office 365 require windows 10. | Dec 09 10:40 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're not thinking like a true Microsoftie yet | Dec 09 10:41 |
| cubexyz | Office 365 will need Windows 365 in the future | Dec 09 10:41 |
| cubexyz | btw, Microsoft has trademarked Windows 365 already | Dec 09 10:43 |
| cubexyz | I mean, you don't have to be Nostradamus to see what's going on | Dec 09 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Libreoffice online is coming along. | Dec 09 10:44 |
| cubexyz | some survey data says the average person buys a new computer every 4.5 years | Dec 09 10:46 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/COMU/libreonline-owncloud | Dec 09 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | COMU/libreonline-owncloud · GitHub | Dec 09 10:47 | |
| cubexyz | in comparison....I'm quite the outlier | Dec 09 10:47 |
| cubexyz | I salvaged this Dell GX110 | Dec 09 10:48 |
| cubexyz | no one wanted it... makes a good IRC box though | Dec 09 10:48 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I've talked to several folks that wanted a 486 | Dec 09 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Really I suspect things will get more interesting as Libreoffice online matures. | Dec 09 10:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674538690727813120 | Dec 09 10:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @borghi_claudio @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico #TPP The older, yet less known brother of #TTIP https://t.co/aDMY6adHw6 | Dec 09 10:50 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How the #TPP Will Affect You and Your Digital Rights https://t.co/ml20zPG5Dw cc @glynmoody | Dec 09 10:50 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.org/project,ao486 that is a 486sx built using modern bits. | Dec 09 10:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | ao486 :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:52 | |
| cubexyz | I think bochs bios is open source, so that's kind of appealing | Dec 09 10:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other insanity as well http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~yiannac/docs/fpga07.pdf | Dec 09 10:55 |
| oiaohm | Yes pentuim cpu removed and fpga chip put in it place is the pdf. | Dec 09 10:55 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, opencores PDP-11 would be more fun I think | Dec 09 10:55 |
| cubexyz | I've definitely considered it | Dec 09 10:55 |
| oiaohm | http://opencores.org/project,next186_soc_pc I have looked at this one for some of my very old code. | Dec 09 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | Next186 SoC PC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:57 | |
| cubexyz | PDP-11/70 running Unix v5 | Dec 09 10:57 |
| cubexyz | http://opencores.com/project,w11 | Dec 09 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:57 | |
| oiaohm | This is party why I say to people please don't think you have to run old hardware. | Dec 09 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Lot of really old hardware can be emulated in fpga quite well and been a lot more dependable than the true stuff that is like 30 years old. | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | getting a real PDP-11/70 that works well would be very expensive | Dec 09 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem is even if you got a real PDP-11/70 that worked today. The question is how long until another old part bites it. | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | but for some, fixing stuff is half the fun | Dec 09 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Its still not straight forwards setting up a fpga chip. | Dec 09 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Like you have to wire up all the outputs and the the like. | Dec 09 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Also the fpga emulation can use less power than the old machine would. | Dec 09 11:02 |
| cubexyz | definitely | Dec 09 11:02 |
| cubexyz | way less :) | Dec 09 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Also way smaller as well. | Dec 09 11:04 |
| oiaohm | particularly in the case of PDP-11/70 compare to it soc replacement. | Dec 09 11:05 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.com/project,w11,performance hmm that is a PDP-11/70 on go fast juice. | Dec 09 11:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Performance :: OpenCores | Dec 09 11:07 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=BASYS3 so less than 300 dollars in parts to set up a PDP-11/70 emulated solution in modern day parts. | Dec 09 11:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.digilentinc.com | Digilent Inc. - Digital Design Engineer's Source | Dec 09 11:13 | |
| oiaohm | Kinda tempting if I was into running old Unix systems. | Dec 09 11:13 |
| cubexyz | well you can run simh for free :) | Dec 09 11:14 |
| cubexyz | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6c_0pqLE3w | Dec 09 11:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | unix version 5 demo - YouTube | Dec 09 11:16 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html | Dec 09 11:16 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:16 |
| schestowitz | The ILO decision linked by Kant is disheartening. It reveals poor behaviour on both sides, going back many years. While a few of Mrs E.H.'s complaints were upheld, more were dismissed. | Dec 09 11:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to Eponia | Dec 09 11:17 | |
| schestowitz | It seems to me that there are two causes of the social unrest at the EPO. It would be tempting to say "a plague on both their houses". But that would still leave serious problems. | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | If there is to be a solution, change and cooperation is needed from both sides. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any signs of change or cooperation from either side. Each side no doubt blames the other for the failure of the dialogue requested by the AC. | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Vive le Roi! said... | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | "Today yet another member of the "inner circle" (I won't use the term mafia) was promoted to the rank of director." | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Actually, there is an interesting graph which shows how the closest "collaborateurs" of Mr. Battistelli either originate from the INPI (Institut national de la propriété industrielle, of which Battistelli was the president) or are bound by family links between each other ... | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Who said "nepotism"? | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | "Just one more blatant violation of the EPC, with obvious consequences. Inbreeding is prohibited under Art. 53 b) EPC" | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | The commenter that is convinced that BB and his clique will soon be shown the door is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | The reality is that France is on the front line, the cutting edge, of a war to defend our most fundamental freedoms and we are all called upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with the French. Nobody dares to suggest otherwise. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | What are these fundamental values of which I write. Well, you know, the Secular State, the Rule of Law and the Separation of Powers. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | What separation? The separation of the three branches: legislative, judicial and executive. BB is just a good soldier, bringing the mischief and wickedness to an end, doing his bit for Europe. He tells the Administrative Council (and himself, just like Tony Blair did) that, in the end, history and the public will come to recognise the sacrifices he has made, for the greater good of Europe. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | But it didn't work out quite like that for Tony, did it? | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6903284 | Dec 09 11:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Stefan Krempl's article in German - if SUEPO doesn't produce a translation, does anyone else want to? ttp://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Europaeisches-Patentamt-Streit-zwischen-Fuehrung-und-Mitarbeitern-spitzt-sich-rasch-zu-3036971.html #epo | Dec 09 11:20 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6902547 | Dec 09 11:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of #EPO Staff Representatives http://techrights.org/2015/12/08/letter-to-administrative-council/ | Dec 09 11:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/674313610139668480 https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/673830690169851904 https://twitter.com/EuropePAN/status/674543042133626880 https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/674548732126433280 https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/674551671847002112 | Dec 09 11:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of EPO Staff Representatives | Techrights | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@arusbridger: Before giving a state massive surveillance powers probably best to think how, eg, Donald Trump or Marine le Pen wd use them | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Superb BBC correction, after Sir Doug Ellis accused of being "with Hezbollah" instead of "with a Villa scarf": https://t.co/t2HIHY93GO #avfc | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.birminghammail.co.uk | Read the BBC's apology to Sir Doug Ellis after an unfortunate subtitle mix up on Match of the Day - Birmingham Mail | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: I still have lots of #epo articles coming, but at least the backlog is now of a size I can almost get my head around (alta vista) | Dec 09 11:31 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674568656077111296 | Dec 09 12:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @altalex @altreconomia https://t.co/DuCYjN487o | Dec 09 12:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: EU Commission unveils next steps for #copyright reform, including draft content portability regulation https://t.co/IGNdlix7fo | Dec 09 12:39 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674582224692449281 | Dec 09 13:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/YY8hOj5MzJ | Dec 09 13:35 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zdnet.com | Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects | ZDNet | Dec 09 13:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674583550226776067 | Dec 09 13:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @SleepyPenguin1 Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/PfQpB14vPj | Dec 09 13:43 | |
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| FIFO_ | Hi Roy! Thanks for all reports on eponia. I have noticed that your services were down at several occasions today. Am I wrong? | Dec 09 17:02 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/674600247360794624 | Dec 09 17:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Ah .... but will it have Fins & more shiny stuffffffff - bling! | Dec 09 17:53 | |
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| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick about 4 hours ago | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 18:50 |
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| msb_ | cubexyz: Hello? | Dec 09 20:23 |
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| msb_ | Yet another call from "Your computer is sending bad signals. Press 1 to talk to a certified microsoft idiot". Foreign accent, didn't know if he was in Las Vegas or Los Angeles. Hung up without trying to get any money from me, again. NoMoRobo didn't catch them, so I reported their number. | Dec 09 23:18 |
| msb_ | What is their racket, anyhow? | Dec 09 23:24 |
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| cubexyz | http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/11/malwarebytes | Dec 10 01:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.wired.co.uk | What happens if you play along with a Microsoft 'tech support' scam? (Wired UK) | Dec 10 01:04 | |
| cubexyz | the racket is to get money from the victim | Dec 10 01:05 |
| cubexyz | get teamviewer on your computer and allow 3rd party control of the victim's computer | Dec 10 01:07 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: sometimes it great fun to have virtual machines. | Dec 10 01:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I remember the main reason for EFI in the first place. MBR has a max harddrive size in BIOS standard of 2TB. | Dec 10 01:20 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically we have out grown what old school BIOS can support. | Dec 10 01:21 |
| cubexyz | EFI was subverted by Microsoft | Dec 10 01:21 |
| oiaohm | Part Microsoft. | Dec 10 01:22 |
| cubexyz | they are using Microsoft data formats | Dec 10 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Some of the MS format usage makes sense. | Dec 10 01:22 |
| oiaohm | fat series of file systems is one of the most OS supported file systems on earth. | Dec 10 01:23 |
| oiaohm | signing comes out of NIST requirements mixed with ODM wanting to be evil so and so and Microsoft seeing the advantage. | Dec 10 01:23 |
| cubexyz | there's lots of McDonald's restaurants, but that doesn't make it a good one | Dec 10 01:23 |
| cubexyz | popular != good | Dec 10 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Case of fat its not exactly good. But there was worse like UDF. | Dec 10 01:24 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I reject using EFI or UEFI | Dec 10 01:25 |
| oiaohm | PE happens to be the best choice out of the COFF class of file formats. | Dec 10 01:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there is 1 area I do have a problem with. Exaclty why CAB for UEFI capsules. Its not the best in it class. | Dec 10 01:28 |
| cubexyz | if you had the old bios source you could keep patching it, it's only because we live in a closed source BIOS world that we can't | Dec 10 01:29 |
| MinceR | these excuses for stuff like [u]efi would be amusing if it wasn't a major offensive against the general purpose computer | Dec 10 01:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios mandates a lot of stupidity. | Dec 10 01:29 |
| cubexyz | it's just code and data, nothing special | Dec 10 01:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios end up running code in SMM to make USB keyboards and mice appear PS/2 | Dec 10 01:29 |
| MinceR | uefi also runs SMM | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | find another excuse | Dec 10 01:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry a clean UEFI does not have to have any code running in SMM. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I'm sure if I spent more time studying things (which I am trying to do) I would find a lot of crufty code | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sorry, a clean uefi does not exist on the market. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its not madated as part of UEFI design to have it. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: nobody cares what uefi mandates, all they care about is what m$ mandates. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| cubexyz | so my main objection is the proprietary closed source once again | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there are clean UEFI in some Intel class motherboards. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: how many of those were sold? | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: 4 and half million to amazon google and facebook. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what percentage is that of total uefi systems sold? | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't know percentage they are one of the highly popular server boards because they are stable. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| cubexyz | also what other alternatives to UEFI exist? | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not having crap happening hiddne in SMM helps things. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | bios, coreboot, u-boot (not on x86, afaik) | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | u-boot can be used on x86. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what about crap happening hidden in uefi? | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | libreboot, if you want to count that separately | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: a clean implemtnation of UEFI once the OS is up everything from UEFI is shutdown. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: of course there are a lot of dirty UEFI implementations out there. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | like TianoCore? | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | and why do you pretend nothing matters until the OS is up? | Dec 10 01:33 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore is clean. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | TianoCore is bigger than Linux without drivers | Dec 10 01:34 |
| MinceR | why does a boot firmware have to be so huge? | Dec 10 01:34 |
| MinceR | there are uefi implementations so bloated they don't even fit in ROM, they also occupy part of the HDD | Dec 10 01:34 |
| cubexyz | coreboot is better anyway | Dec 10 01:35 |
| MinceR | of course, but oiaohm will never see that | Dec 10 01:35 |
| cubexyz | the other problem is lack of coreboot support | Dec 10 01:35 |
| MinceR | maybe hw manufacturers get off on screwing their customers | Dec 10 01:35 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore has to contain drivers. | Dec 10 01:36 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: starting the hardware to access harddrives and the like means using drivers. | Dec 10 01:36 |
| MinceR | afaik it does not contain drivers | Dec 10 01:38 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/tianocore/tianocore.github.io/wiki/Driver-Developer | Dec 10 01:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | Driver Developer · tianocore/tianocore.github.io Wiki · GitHub [ http://ur1.ca/oc4hk ] | Dec 10 01:38 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: TianoCore does contain some drivers and then provided means to write more. | Dec 10 01:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not OS of some form starts the system. Even old school bios has drivers. | Dec 10 01:41 |
| MinceR | it's still not nearly as bloated as uefi | Dec 10 01:42 |
| oiaohm | coreboot does not support the range of hardware TianoCore does. | Dec 10 01:42 |
| cubexyz | btw coreboot (the one I built) fill into 256K | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | of course, it's for an older computer... BX chipset | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | s/fill/fit/ | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | I'd say that's not too bloated | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | that's with seabios added | Dec 10 01:44 |
| cubexyz | the real question is: can you build your own BIOS? | Dec 10 01:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the coreboot you build was without signing right. | Dec 10 01:45 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, that's right | Dec 10 01:45 |
| oiaohm | Adding signing that add on about 256 alone. | Dec 10 01:45 |
| MinceR | will signing protect your box from an attacker that has physical access? | Dec 10 01:45 |
| cubexyz | with the ECS board and BIOS_WP it's not even necessary | Dec 10 01:46 |
| cubexyz | so you want BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | it's not necessary in any case | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: chromebook signing on coreboot prevents swaping bootloaders. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | it's just another case of lock-in with security theater as the excuse | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: at least without informating user. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's developer mode for that | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | afaik you can swap bootloaders on chromebook | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes but in developer mode you are informed the bootloader could be fake. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/ec-development | Dec 10 01:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.chromium.org | Chromium Embedded Controller (EC) Development - The Chromium Projects [ http://ur1.ca/n2hox ] | Dec 10 01:47 | |
| oiaohm | The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| oiaohm | and the means to load drivers as well as loader from FAT. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're right, things are very bloated | Dec 10 01:48 |
| MinceR | "A hardware-based mechanism is used to prevent the RO firmware from being changed. The most common design is to have an input grounded by a screw. When the screw is inserted, hardware write protect is enabled. This grounded signal can be read by the host chipset and EC. It is also routed to the “write protect” pin on any SPI flash chips containing firmware." | Dec 10 01:48 |
| oiaohm | And there is a really horible reason for the FAT support. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| MinceR | something the idiots who came up with uefi couldn't think of | Dec 10 01:48 |
| cubexyz | but it's not necessary.... especially if you're running old stuff | Dec 10 01:49 |
| oiaohm | True cubexyz old stuff correct new stuff not so much. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | 024822 < oiaohm> The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| cubexyz | we don't have to just lie down an accept everything they throw at us | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | and what did i say about FAT support... | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | (also think about whether bios needed that) | Dec 10 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Lot of newer cards don't have firmware chips. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | yes, and lots of broken hw comes with uefi | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | They are depending on the OS or bios to have thier firmware. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | people can come up with stupid designs | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Or worse. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean it has to be forced on everybody | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly stupid. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | just like cancerd | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | yeah, forcing winblows or macos on the user is so S-M-R-T | Dec 10 01:51 |
| MinceR | and so's permanently bricking the "computer" | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | The reason for drivers in FAT on filesystem from EFI is to allow for something nasty. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| MinceR | yeah, they love nasty things | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Lets say you have a OS driver needing a particular firmware version. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I just recently discovered a work-around for Unix v5 dd | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Now you have more than 1 OS installed on that computer. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| cubexyz | the dd from that era had a 65536 byte limit | Dec 10 01:52 |
| cubexyz | I can fix that, since I have the source | Dec 10 01:52 |
| cubexyz | 16-bit int from 1974 :) | Dec 10 01:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the sad reality is EFI fat support comes from EFI including the means to properly boot multi OSs. Of course ODM don't want to have to do support on multi OS and Microsoft does not want users using something not Microsoft. | Dec 10 01:53 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: we already had a reliable method to boot multi OS-es | Dec 10 01:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not in cases of firmware conflit. | Dec 10 01:54 |
| MinceR | and it involved not relying on intel's or m$'s broken code | Dec 10 01:54 |
| MinceR | then don't buy hw with braindead drivers | Dec 10 01:54 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is when the hardware is new the drivers support can look fine. | Dec 10 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Its when an OS is deprecated by vendor does these problem appear. | Dec 10 01:55 |
| cubexyz | what if the manufacuturer disappears? we need the BIOS source for those motherboards too | Dec 10 01:55 |
| MinceR | and even with that bullshit multiboot support users still find themselves relying on bootloaders and trickery | Dec 10 01:55 |
| MinceR | even stubs signed by m$ | Dec 10 01:55 |
| cubexyz | not only the source, but the tools to actually build it | Dec 10 01:56 |
| MinceR | so this is yet another transparent excuse | Dec 10 01:56 |
| cubexyz | otherwise what you have is (un)planned obsolescence | Dec 10 01:56 |
| MinceR | maybe if uefi pushers put as much effort into uefi as they put into the excuses and into depriving users of choice, they would have ended up with a product worth using | Dec 10 01:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a cat fight going on. Multiboot support in working EFI implementations stop the case different OS installs screwing up each other loaders. | Dec 10 01:57 |
| MinceR | but that's not the One Microsoft Way, is it? | Dec 10 01:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but there is a problem of ODM and Microsoft wanting it. | Dec 10 01:58 |
| MinceR | and of course none of this would matter much if antitrust regulations were actually enforced in the USA and in the EU | Dec 10 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Most of the reasoning behind UEFI/EFI is sold. | Dec 10 01:58 |
| oiaohm | sold/solid. | Dec 10 01:59 |
| MinceR | or so you believe | Dec 10 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Like the PK by standard was always to be under the end users control. Of course ODM and Microsoft did not want that. | Dec 10 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Some of the worse of UEFI on users comes from Implementers not wanting to follow standard. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| oiaohm | The secureboot switch was a trick. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| MinceR | the entirety of uefi is a trick | Dec 10 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Standard to turn off secureboot is remove PK. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| MinceR | it's a hoax | Dec 10 02:01 |
| MinceR | it's a scam | Dec 10 02:01 |
| oiaohm | The implementers put the secureboot switch in to hide the fact they were not offering PK removal. | Dec 10 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Now everyone is getting up set because the secureboot switch has disappeared. But what should have been in the first place is now being provided. | Dec 10 02:02 |
| MinceR | people should be upset because they don't get to choose anything other than uefi | Dec 10 02:03 |
| oiaohm | That problem is not secureboot. | Dec 10 02:03 |
| MinceR | even with the switch, uefi is bloated, unreliable garbage | Dec 10 02:03 |
| MinceR | restricted boot is part of the problem | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Please note the swtich added extra code paths. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | but uefi is bloated enough to have room for many more problems than that | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | That create more of a problem. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | please note that even without the switch, uefi was far more bloated than any alternative | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Removing the secureboot switch in fact reduced bloat. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | removing restricted boot would also reduce bloat | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | as you've pointed out a while ago | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | and it would reduce bloat a lot more than removing the switch would | Dec 10 02:05 |
| oiaohm | Removing switch removed just as much as removing the complete secure boot system. | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 10 02:05 |
| oiaohm | Intel developer had it I wish I had recorded the link. | Dec 10 02:06 |
| MinceR | then again, with intel/m$ drone skills i can imagine that they could fuck up even such a simple thing as a switch | Dec 10 02:06 |
| MinceR | it's scary to imagine that such retards get to decide what gets into the firmware of our devices | Dec 10 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Deleting the PK is absolute on and off. | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | poettering-level development skills | Dec 10 02:07 |
| oiaohm | secureboot switch cmos reset it could turn back on. | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | how difficult is it to have the swith on the UI simply delete the PK or restore it from ROM? | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | s/ith/itch/ | Dec 10 02:07 |
| oiaohm | The switch end up checking 30+ places to find out if secureboot should on or off. | Dec 10 02:08 |
| MinceR | and whose fault is that? | Dec 10 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Current UEFI to standard they have a simple unenrol PK option and a restore factory option. | Dec 10 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Of course if PK is filled with zeros don't bother execututing the secureboot code. | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | i prefer the "non-uefi" option | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | don't even bother including that code | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | it only serves m$'s purpose | Dec 10 02:09 |
| oiaohm | It is possible to build UEFI without secureboot code. | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | let them store it and run it on their systems | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | why do ODMs not do that, then? | Dec 10 02:09 |
| cubexyz | windows 10 certification maybe? | Dec 10 02:10 |
| MinceR | and again, the whole parade of excuses for uefi falls apart | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | it's all there because m$ is pulling the strings | Dec 10 02:11 |
| cubexyz | I fear so | Dec 10 02:11 |
| oiaohm | but the problem is you cannot inload this into motherboards in most cases now due to ODM writing like Intel Boot Guard public keys into hardware. | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | just like how none of the fascists could explain why any of the alleged security functionality of TPM needs the endorsement key | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | (it doesn't, only the DRM functionality needs it, which is the whole point of the TPM) | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | yes, intel boot guard is another part of the problem | Dec 10 02:12 |
| oiaohm | NIST is demarding TPM be socketed on to motherboard. | Dec 10 02:12 |
| oiaohm | So you can physically pull the bastard off. | Dec 10 02:12 |
| MinceR | i demand the NIST be shut down | Dec 10 02:13 |
| MinceR | haven't they done enough damage already? | Dec 10 02:13 |
| MinceR | we've had the technology that already does all the defensible functionality of the TPM for ages | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | it's called a smart card | Dec 10 02:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: before NIST demard TPM chips were being soldered on to motherboard. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | so stop putting clipper chips on the mainboards and start using smartcards. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| oiaohm | With the possiblatiy of being embedded into the chipset. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: before TPM, smartcards existed. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | and before uefi, bios existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before systemd, unix existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST demard takes TPM back to being like a smartcard security. | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before hypePhones, real smartphones running open platforms existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before the w3c sold out, the open web existed | Dec 10 02:16 |
| MinceR | see where i'm going with this? | Dec 10 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Really we need NIST or China equal or EU equal to make the same demard over items like boot guard. | Dec 10 02:16 |
| cubexyz | the open web still exists | Dec 10 02:16 |
| cubexyz | e.g. archive.org | Dec 10 02:16 |
| MinceR | not for long, if w3c and its owners get their way | Dec 10 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Like the EU regulartor could step in and address some of these problems. | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | not for long with all this html5 hype going around and swallowed | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | when has the EU ever done anything substantial to protect its members/citizens' interests? | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | (no, forcing windows xp n edition to be offered was not it) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, letting vista10 get away with forcing ie to be the default browser was not it either) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, their ongoing support for the orban regime isn't it, either) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| oiaohm | EU forcing charges on phones not to keep on using different plugs. EU support of Samba to protect it against Microsoft possible patent attacks. | Dec 10 02:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Of coruse like all regulators not everything they try is the right thing. | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | cubexyz: Regarding the FPGA 11/70: | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Are FPGAs reprogrammable? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Is there X for Unix 5? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Can the 11/70 sim use an X86 on the bus for floating point? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Can it use large disk partitions -- 1 TB? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | How does the integer speed compare with an 8-core AMD? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| MinceR | neither of those are substantial | Dec 10 02:19 |
| MinceR | in the face of assaults like uefi and intel boot guard, those gestures are laughable. | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | regulators have failed | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | and human society is failing | Dec 10 02:20 |
| oiaohm | regulators are reactive not proactive most of the time. | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | yes, and they mostly only react to bribes | Dec 10 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Like the phone chargers at worst point there was over 5000 differnet plugs in use todo something as simple as charge a phone. | Dec 10 02:21 |
| MinceR | and crApple still uses nonstandard plugs | Dec 10 02:22 |
| MinceR | and the EU isn't doing jack shit about that | Dec 10 02:22 |
| MinceR | also, standardizing the plugs doesn't help if warranty only holds if you use the charger supplied by the manufacturer of the device in the first place | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | you still get to keep all your power bricks | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-will-be-forced-to-use-micro-usb-chargers-by-2017-1587862/ | Dec 10 02:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Apple will be forced to use micro USB chargers by 2017 | Apple | Geek.com | Dec 10 02:23 | |
| MinceR | only this time it's even more difficult to keep track of which one is supposed to go with which device | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | ooh, 2017 | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be humans by then? | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be an EU by then? | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Please note what I said about regulators being reactive not proactive. | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Apple is the last hold out not to go unified format. | Dec 10 02:24 |
| oiaohm | I would love to see Apple users if the EU makes it offence to have a phone without USB changing. | Dec 10 02:24 |
| MinceR | and yet i have yet to see crApple being punished for shitting on EU law | Dec 10 02:24 |
| oiaohm | Its not like Apple was not given enough time to be conforming. | Dec 10 02:25 |
| MinceR | then again, if orban and his buddies are of any indication, the EU is run by crApple fanboys | Dec 10 02:25 |
| MinceR | so crApple will get away with it forever | Dec 10 02:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: laws are also reactive not proactive normally due to legal constructs requiring a delay before being applied. | Dec 10 02:25 |
| MinceR | at least in the EPP, showing off wealth and belonging to the cult by spending taxpayer's money on crApple crap is the hip thing | Dec 10 02:26 |
| oiaohm | Apple plan to avoid usb port on their device is to be wireless by 2017 | Dec 10 02:26 |
| MinceR | they could sell inert blocks of glass | Dec 10 02:27 |
| MinceR | that way they won't need power or communication | Dec 10 02:27 |
| MinceR | and the fanboys will still love it as long as it comes from crApple | Dec 10 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Like the one where Apple is selling a warntary that they are legally required to provide free of charge by law in the EU. | Dec 10 02:28 |
| oiaohm | http://www.geek.com/apple/belgium-isps-may-be-forced-to-block-access-to-apples-website-and-services-1586697/ | Dec 10 02:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Belgium ISPs may be forced to block access to Apple’s website and services | Apple | Geek.com [ http://ur1.ca/oc4ks ] | Dec 10 02:29 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I would prefer that we don't need to use the regulators to deal with these problems. But I don't see Microsoft Apple or ODM behaving without at least 1 of the regulators mandating proper rights to consumers. | Dec 10 02:30 |
| MinceR | i don't see how these problems will be solved, with or without regulators | Dec 10 02:32 |
| MinceR | at least as long as the regulators are in the pockets of those whom they're supposed to regulate | Dec 10 02:32 |
| msb_ | Apple's website should be blocked until it restores those pictures (or was it a _video_) of the naked guy in bed having sex with the expensive cylindrical Mac. | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | the ButtPlug Pro? | Dec 10 02:35 |
| msb_ | Damn I wish I had saved that! | Dec 10 02:35 |
| msb_ | Sounds about right. | Dec 10 02:35 |
| cubexyz | you guys don't buy any apple stuff anyway :) | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | has archive.org saved it? | Dec 10 02:35 |
| cubexyz | I'm positive MinceR doesn't at least | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | and you're right | Dec 10 02:36 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 10 02:40 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the regulators have improved EFI/UEFI to where it was going. If the regulartors had not go involved by now the TPM chip would either been in the CPU or Chipset. And we would still have the case were new secureboot motherboard that you cannot truly turn it off so you turn it off and at some random point in the future it turns back on. | Dec 10 02:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically mandating PK removal means when you do turn secureboot off it stays off. | Dec 10 02:48 |
| MinceR | well, they haven't done a good job | Dec 10 02:49 |
| MinceR | [u]efi is still worse than nothing | Dec 10 02:49 |
| MinceR | and i doubt you get to buy a business-class laptop without a TPM | Dec 10 02:49 |
| MinceR | or even without paying those responsible for its proliferation | Dec 10 02:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even current day business class laptops have removable TPM chips due to NIST demard | Dec 10 02:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: older laptops the TPM chip is soldered on. | Dec 10 02:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the NIST demard includes that the system must boot with the TPM chip removed. | Dec 10 02:52 |
| MinceR | yes, but accessing the socket voids your warranty | Dec 10 02:53 |
| MinceR | and even if you've bought it and removed it, you've paid for the TPM | Dec 10 02:54 |
| oiaohm | In fact no. | Dec 10 02:54 |
| MinceR | thus rewarding its perpetrators for distorting the market | Dec 10 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Part of NIST demard is that warranty cannot be voided because the TPM has been removed. | Dec 10 02:54 |
| MinceR | indeed it won't be | Dec 10 02:54 |
| MinceR | it will be voided because you opened up the compartment to access it. | Dec 10 02:54 |
| MinceR | or because you removed or damaged a sticker on a screw. | Dec 10 02:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the demard covers all that. | Dec 10 02:55 |
| MinceR | do i get refunded if i return the TPM? | Dec 10 02:56 |
| oiaohm | Now if you insert a new TPM then they can void you warntanty. | Dec 10 02:56 |
| oiaohm | Unfortunately NIST did not demard that you can return TPM chip for refund. | Dec 10 02:56 |
| MinceR | see, again they carefully avoided doing anything that matters | Dec 10 02:57 |
| oiaohm | NIST declared removing TPM as part of basic diagnostics like removing the battery. | Dec 10 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Good part about NIST rulings is they are in breach if they don't follow the ruling anywhere on earth to anyone. | Dec 10 02:59 |
| oiaohm | Its also the bad part. | Dec 10 02:59 |
| oiaohm | As that makes NIST a huge sledge hammer. | Dec 10 03:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically a sledge hammer to put in a thumb tack and wondering why you have a hole in wall. | Dec 10 03:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: now if NIST ruled that we were allowed to replace motherboard firmware with out choosing as diagnostics on general PC hardware it would be great. | Dec 10 03:02 |
| oiaohm | out/our | Dec 10 03:02 |
| msb_ | NIST also put out lots of false data to cover up the role of the US govt in blowing up the World Trade Center in 9/2001. | Dec 10 03:03 |
| cubexyz | without good electronics knowledge of the motherboard chipsets you would never be able to write your own BIOS | Dec 10 03:03 |
| cubexyz | it would take years to learn it all | Dec 10 03:03 |
| oiaohm | msb_: check again you have the wrong group | Dec 10 03:04 |
| oiaohm | msb_: I know they start with N | Dec 10 03:04 |
| msb_ | oiaohm: Sorry for disturbing your ignorance. | Dec 10 03:04 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: "sure you can, it just won't boot!" | Dec 10 03:05 |
| oiaohm | msb_: National Institute of Standards and Technology. When it comes to building being destroyed it not their deparment. | Dec 10 03:06 |
| cubexyz | it's not just NIST for motherboards either | Dec 10 03:08 |
| cubexyz | there's the IEC and other ones | Dec 10 03:08 |
| cubexyz | IPC, JIS, probably other ones we don't even know about | Dec 10 03:09 |
| msb_ | http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/ | Dec 10 03:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | WTC Disaster Study | Dec 10 03:09 | |
| msb_ | http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/nist/index.html | Dec 10 03:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.911research.wtc7.net | 9-11 Research: The NIST Investigation | Dec 10 03:09 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/ncst/index.cfm Its a different N msb_ | Dec 10 03:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | National Construction Safety Team (NCST) Advisory Committee [ http://ur1.ca/oc4m2 ] | Dec 10 03:11 | |
| msb_ | oiaohm: NCST is a subdivision of NIST. In the field of 9/11 research, the reports are known as NIST reports. | Dec 10 03:17 |
| oiaohm | msb_: check into how NCST members are appointed. | Dec 10 03:17 |
| oiaohm | The many body NIST has no control over it. | Dec 10 03:17 |
| msb_ | Why, nitpicker? | Dec 10 03:18 |
| oiaohm | It be correct it is important. | Dec 10 03:18 |
| oiaohm | NCST being formed is extrealy odd. | Dec 10 03:18 |
| oiaohm | msb_: FEMA is the offical USA department for building falures. NIST job with building is todo simulations and testing not investagation. | Dec 10 03:20 |
| msb_ | Maybe to put another layer on the coverup. | Dec 10 03:20 |
| oiaohm | There is also a USA mil group that specialised in demolistions who could have written a report but did not. | Dec 10 03:21 |
| oiaohm | Please note the date NCST comes into existance October 2002 | Dec 10 03:23 |
| oiaohm | msb_: so NCST first case ever was investaging Sep 11. This is putting a bunch of newbies on the job then wondering why they come up with garbage. | Dec 10 03:25 |
| MinceR | what's their excuse for their failures around uefi? were those done by newbies too? | Dec 10 03:29 |
| msb_ | Some of the best 9/11 research info in existence: http://cosmicpenguin.com/#911 | Dec 10 03:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-cosmicpenguin.com | Human Society That Works For Everyone | Dec 10 03:29 | |
| oiaohm | msb_: there are list of parties you could expect to see proper reports from. Federal Aviation Administration, FEMA, Insurance, United States Department of Defense sub department Army Corps of Engineers | Dec 10 03:29 |
| oiaohm | msb_: NCST was fairly much a poltical created thing to political poeple could look like they were doing something. | Dec 10 03:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST job is not mostly not to create stuff but do research and write standards. When you have NIST doing stuff they are not set todo by political force like NCST and 9/11 investantion they balls it up every single time. | Dec 10 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you think UEFI is bad be thankful NIST did not decide to code it themselves. | Dec 10 03:34 |
| oiaohm | msb_: the thing that is very odd about Sep 11 is the fact there is no Army Corps of Engineers report that is findable. | Dec 10 03:36 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674781057384890368 | Dec 10 03:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I'm a little confused by Microsoft hosting? I recently dumped Windows myself. | Dec 10 03:36 | |
| oiaohm | msb_: for every embency bombs there is one. | Dec 10 03:36 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't see how it could be worse | Dec 10 03:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist has attempted to implement code for stuff in the past and it contained 40 buffer overflow faults in 4kb of binary. | Dec 10 03:39 |
| MinceR | how do you know TianoCore doesn't? | Dec 10 03:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically loto booting if the system booted at all if NIST had done it. | Dec 10 03:40 |
| MinceR | same thing | Dec 10 03:40 |
| MinceR | can NIST muster stupider code monkeys than m$ (or intel with m$ brainwashing)? | Dec 10 03:40 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore is fairly well audited. | Dec 10 03:40 |
| MinceR | by whom? | Dec 10 03:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes NIST can muster the worst code monkeys on earth. | Dec 10 03:41 |
| cubexyz | it's all about control | Dec 10 03:41 |
| MinceR | yup | Dec 10 03:41 |
| cubexyz | as in, you the computer user don't have any :) | Dec 10 03:41 |
| MinceR | exactly | Dec 10 03:41 |
| MinceR | but apparently that's exactly what some users want | Dec 10 03:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: TainoCore stuff is thrid party checked by coverity for USA mil requirements and a few other groups of other countries. | Dec 10 03:42 |
| oiaohm | NIST history with their code they would not bother doing that. | Dec 10 03:42 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you don't ask NIST to code anything if you want it to work. | Dec 10 03:43 |
| *WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 03:43 | |
| MinceR | checked, and then what? | Dec 10 03:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: bug reported opened and fixed as well | Dec 10 03:43 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't ask m$ or m$-brainwashed people to code anything either. | Dec 10 03:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you can find evidence of TainoCore auditing in the bugreports and fixes. | Dec 10 03:44 |
| oiaohm | Note I said fairly well audited. Not perfectly audited. | Dec 10 03:44 |
| oiaohm | So there is still a lot of room for improvement with TainoCore quality controls. | Dec 10 03:45 |
| MinceR | especially considering that such automated tools won't check the design | Dec 10 03:46 |
| oiaohm | 100 percent stupid things like straight up buffer overflows automated tools don't let slide. | Dec 10 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Perfect auditing process is mathematically proven secure stuff. Expensive and time consuming to produce. | Dec 10 03:48 |
| MinceR | and they aren't interested in that anyway | Dec 10 03:48 |
| MinceR | what they're interested in is locking consumers into OSes full of security holes and backdoors, the better to surveil and oppress them | Dec 10 03:49 |
| oiaohm | mathematically secure would most likely take 5 to 6 years to have all the required testing framework in place with a team of 40 working around the clock. | Dec 10 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when I say Expensive and time consuming I really do mean it. | Dec 10 03:50 |
| MinceR | and a few millennia to build computer systems powerful enough to deal with TianoCore-level of bloat | Dec 10 03:50 |
| MinceR | iirc time required to analyze grows exponentially with code complexity | Dec 10 03:50 |
| oiaohm | Please note I said 5 to 6 years to get the required testing framework in place not how long it would take to run the testing framework. | Dec 10 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Even old school bios chips never were mathmatically secure. | Dec 10 03:52 |
| MinceR | at least they weren't pathologically overcomplicated | Dec 10 03:52 |
| cubexyz | KISS Principle | Dec 10 03:53 |
| MinceR | and there weren't nearly as many hoops to jump through to get your OS to boot | Dec 10 03:53 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: don't expect a uefi/cancerd apologist to understand that | Dec 10 03:53 |
| oiaohm | To be truthful xt were simple. | Dec 10 03:53 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but modern day CPU and chipsets are not simple. | Dec 10 03:53 |
| MinceR | and yet booting an OS is still easy to do on them, if they have BIOS | Dec 10 03:54 |
| MinceR | put your code in the MBR, it gets loaded and run | Dec 10 03:54 |
| cubexyz | in XT era it was still hard to upgrade the BIOS, even though it was simple | Dec 10 03:54 |
| cubexyz | EEPROMs? I think | Dec 10 03:54 |
| oiaohm | EFI without secureboot is straight forwards MinceR. Place loader in directory in boot partition. | Dec 10 03:54 |
| MinceR | i think EPROMs | Dec 10 03:55 |
| MinceR | (the ones with the quartz window under the sticker | Dec 10 03:55 |
| MinceR | ) | Dec 10 03:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: far from it | Dec 10 03:55 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, maybe just ROM chips | Dec 10 03:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have made a loader to play tetris in EFI. | Dec 10 03:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: see, that's the sort of thing EFI shouldn't focus on | Dec 10 03:55 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: or those | Dec 10 03:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have also made a Loader ot pay tetris from MBR. | Dec 10 03:56 |
| oiaohm | EFI one was cleaner. | Dec 10 03:56 |
| cubexyz | on Amiga 500 you got a ROM chip kit for upgrades | Dec 10 03:56 |
| oiaohm | At least I was not hidding sections of the program in hopefully unused sectors. | Dec 10 03:56 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if there are multiple loaders in that directory, which one gets run? | Dec 10 03:56 |
| MinceR | the MBR is not "hopefully unused" | Dec 10 03:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: between MBR and first sector of first partition there were unsed sectors/sometimes used sectors by different loaders and items that went into MBR. | Dec 10 03:57 |
| MinceR | and your primary loader can't fit in the MBR? | Dec 10 03:58 |
| MinceR | perhaps it shouldn't be trying to do so much | Dec 10 03:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when its a 400 level game with changing graphics it kinda does not fit. | Dec 10 03:58 |
| MinceR | the MBR is not for 400 level games with changing graphics. | Dec 10 03:59 |
| cubexyz | BIOS should be simple... inititialize chips and boot main OS | Dec 10 03:59 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: each loader in EFI goes per directory and setting choosed default. | Dec 10 04:00 |
| MinceR | games are not loaders. | Dec 10 04:00 |
| MinceR | the environment for running loaders should not be designed for running games. | Dec 10 04:00 |
| cubexyz | actually the Amiga did that too | Dec 10 04:00 |
| oiaohm | The game executable code fitted in 512 of the MBR. | Dec 10 04:00 |
| MinceR | especially not if it leads to a landfill-load of bloat like TianoCore. | Dec 10 04:00 |
| cubexyz | splash screen comes up, then the rest of the game loads | Dec 10 04:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it was the graphics that was the problem. | Dec 10 04:01 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter | Dec 10 04:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it was a loader. | Dec 10 04:01 |
| MinceR | if the whole thing doesn't fit in the MBR, put it elsewhere and put something in the MBR that loads that. | Dec 10 04:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: just not loading an OS. | Dec 10 04:01 |
| MinceR | you could even use a filesystem of your choice, put the data in a file and then put its logical address in the MBR and have that code load the file | Dec 10 04:01 |
| MinceR | without knowing the filesystem | Dec 10 04:01 |
| MinceR | or you could reserve a partition for it and point the code in the MBR at that. | Dec 10 04:02 |
| cubexyz | seabios would fit into 128K and the rest of coreboot would fit into another 128K making a 256K image | Dec 10 04:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: EFI is just simpler because you put all the loader stuff in 1 file and the firmware takes care of getting it into ram. | Dec 10 04:03 |
| oiaohm | No need to do individual hacks and work arounds. | Dec 10 04:04 |
| cubexyz | check it out: | Dec 10 04:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/gigabyte-coreboot-sample.rom | Dec 10 04:04 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: again, confusing 'how much the user has to do in a particular use case' with simplicity of design | Dec 10 04:05 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: also, the CPU not knowing what partitioning schemes or filesystems look like is not a "hack" or a "workaround", it's proper, flexible design | Dec 10 04:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there have been issues of differnet loaders from different OS butting heads reading from file systems. | Dec 10 04:05 |
| MinceR | if it did, you could not change either | Dec 10 04:05 |
| MinceR | just like how uefi forces you to use FAT, PE and CAB. | Dec 10 04:06 |
| oiaohm | Before EFI. | Dec 10 04:06 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: never happened to me | Dec 10 04:06 |
| cubexyz | the splash screen was about 16K | Dec 10 04:07 |
| oiaohm | To be correct I have used EFI to install 3 different Linux systems on same harddrive with there own versions of grub. | Dec 10 04:07 |
| cubexyz | and there's still a fair amount of unused space in there | Dec 10 04:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically there are things bout EFI that are nice about a file system been choosen to store loaders instead of a single sector. | Dec 10 04:08 |
| cubexyz | one can use qemu to run coreboot on emulated hardware | Dec 10 04:08 |
| MinceR | there's still 1 grub that gets started | Dec 10 04:08 |
| MinceR | and you can chainload the others if you want | Dec 10 04:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: forcing you to use a particular partitioning scheme and filesystem? yeah, so nice | Dec 10 04:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: locking you into a particular implementation for loading a file from the filesystem you can't fix bugs in? that's very nice too | Dec 10 04:09 |
| MinceR | the whole point for getting the firmware loader simple was to avoid bugs and offload as much work as possible to stuff you can change later | Dec 10 04:09 |
| MinceR | s/for/of/ | Dec 10 04:09 |
| oiaohm | With old bios we already had cases to install updates in some of them of having to use fat formated USB keys to their standard. | Dec 10 04:10 |
| MinceR | "bioses got some things wrong so let's got those things wrong everywhere!" | Dec 10 04:10 |
| cubexyz | you can build coreboot without any of that | Dec 10 04:10 |
| MinceR | the uefi design philosophy is really sound, as you can see. | Dec 10 04:10 |
| oiaohm | coreboot supports a loader partition mode as well. | Dec 10 04:10 |
| MinceR | s/got t/get t/ | Dec 10 04:10 |
| MinceR | actually, "some bioses got some things wrong so let's get those things wrong everywhere, and call it 'standard'!" | Dec 10 04:11 |
| oiaohm | coreboot support using a ext2/ext3 partition to store loaders. | Dec 10 04:11 |
| MinceR | just like cancerd's "winblows got these things wrong so let's break them in */linux and force the brokenness on everybody!" | Dec 10 04:12 |
| MinceR | at least it isn't FAT. | Dec 10 04:12 |
| cubexyz | the BIOS doesn't need to know about FAT | Dec 10 04:12 |
| oiaohm | coreboot was really the first to support storing hardware drivers in a partition on harddrive. | Dec 10 04:12 |
| cubexyz | well, ok maybe seabios does, I'm not sure | Dec 10 04:12 |
| oiaohm | coreboot is more optional than EFI design. | Dec 10 04:13 |
| MinceR | well, obviously | Dec 10 04:13 |
| MinceR | the whole point of efi is to eliminate options | Dec 10 04:13 |
| cubexyz | I don't see anything related to FAT in seabios though | Dec 10 04:13 |
| MinceR | take away all control from the user | Dec 10 04:13 |
| cubexyz | don't forget one can do all sorts of BIOS experimenting with qemu | Dec 10 04:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: seabios has an option of self firmware updating. If you add that then it has a fat driver to read usb keys. | Dec 10 04:14 |
| cubexyz | you can even run linux distros on an emulated qemu machine | Dec 10 04:14 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what could possibly go wrong? | Dec 10 04:15 |
| cubexyz | or xenix, or msdos, or a ton of other things | Dec 10 04:15 |
| cubexyz | even minix | Dec 10 04:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the attempts to be OS netural in BIOS updating have resulted in a lot of things going wrong. | Dec 10 04:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: including fat drivers in BIOS images. | Dec 10 04:16 |
| cubexyz | BIOS should be OS-neutral | Dec 10 04:16 |
| cubexyz | what do you want, a winBIOS? | Dec 10 04:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: worse fat drivers that see a long file name lock up. | Dec 10 04:16 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: that's what uefi people want, yes | Dec 10 04:17 |
| oiaohm | Remember before UEFI Microsoft had patents on reading long filenames so BIOS updating software embedded in BIOS did not include that functionality. | Dec 10 04:17 |
| MinceR | firmware written by people who believe there's only winblows, only will be winblows, only winblows is possible, and the user must be forced to only ever use winblows | Dec 10 04:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: see, this is yet another reason why using m$ formats is retarded | Dec 10 04:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: why was fat choosen and its not because it Microsoft. | Dec 10 04:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it is in fact the size of code you need to read it. | Dec 10 04:18 |
| MinceR | because the people involved are idiots | Dec 10 04:19 |
| MinceR | once again, bios manages to work without knowing any filesystem | Dec 10 04:19 |
| oiaohm | Out of the majority of filesystems out there Fat requires some of the smallest code to read. | Dec 10 04:19 |
| MinceR | if a supposed replacement can't do that then it's not a good replacement | Dec 10 04:19 |
| MinceR | >majority | Dec 10 04:19 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter | Dec 10 04:19 |
| MinceR | and even if there were _no_ filesystems requiring less code to read, one could be developed | Dec 10 04:19 |
| oiaohm | There is only 1 or 2 that are better but those are equally pain in ass. | Dec 10 04:20 |
| MinceR | oh really? | Dec 10 04:20 |
| MinceR | which of them are encumbered by m$ patents? | Dec 10 04:20 |
| oiaohm | None of them are encumbeded by m$ patents but none of the are read/write. yes read only filesystems. | Dec 10 04:20 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 10 04:21 |
| cubexyz | people could have used CP/M on the IBM PC | Dec 10 04:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: tar as a file system straight on a disc was an option. | Dec 10 04:21 |
| cubexyz | some did | Dec 10 04:21 |
| MinceR | well, they did | Dec 10 04:21 |
| MinceR | just stolen code that was crapped all over | Dec 10 04:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: probably ar also | Dec 10 04:22 |
| MinceR | maybe even cpio | Dec 10 04:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: reading tar takes less than fat. | Dec 10 04:22 |
| oiaohm | cpio takes more. | Dec 10 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Please note tar without compression. | Dec 10 04:22 |
| MinceR | tar does not compress, afaik | Dec 10 04:22 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, PDP-11 doesn't even have a BIOS, and it managed just fine | Dec 10 04:22 |
| MinceR | heresy! :> | Dec 10 04:23 |
| cubexyz | so this wintel dependence... it's not good | Dec 10 04:23 |
| oiaohm | tar depending on version can compression files inside it by setting the compress bit flag. | Dec 10 04:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem is the compress bit does not tell you want compression. | Dec 10 04:23 |
| MinceR | weird | Dec 10 04:23 |
| MinceR | nobody uses it, though | Dec 10 04:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have found the odd tar file with compression bit set. | Dec 10 04:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: those are pains in ass. | Dec 10 04:25 |
| MinceR | do you have a tar that supports it? | Dec 10 04:25 |
| oiaohm | The problem is it from the filesystem. | Dec 10 04:26 |
| oiaohm | Unix file system support a compression flag. | Dec 10 04:26 |
| oiaohm | If the file is compressed when tar sees it the thing just stores it. | Dec 10 04:26 |
| MinceR | isn't that transparent to filesystem users? | Dec 10 04:26 |
| cubexyz | doesn't everyone just use the z and j flags? | Dec 10 04:27 |
| cubexyz | I know I do | Dec 10 04:27 |
| MinceR | apparently not | Dec 10 04:27 |
| MinceR | though i suspect those files are relics | Dec 10 04:27 |
| cubexyz | in the olden days there was just ar | Dec 10 04:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: when tar is running in backup mode transparent decompression on some of theses old unixs are off. | Dec 10 04:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so it fairly much what beep of a system did this tar file come from. | Dec 10 04:28 |
| cubexyz | very old tar didn't have compression | Dec 10 04:28 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: very old tar does this. It stores the file flags and if the file was compress heven help you. | Dec 10 04:28 |
| oiaohm | Tar does not promisse when it stores a file that it will make sure its uncompressed first. | Dec 10 04:29 |
| cubexyz | compress came later | Dec 10 04:29 |
| cubexyz | in Unix v7 there's no compression | Dec 10 04:29 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674798284830056448 | Dec 10 04:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 04:30 | |
| cubexyz | you have to be more specific | Dec 10 04:30 |
| schestowitz | "What confusing is how are they even able to enforce it on US soil? Seems like international law violation." | Dec 10 04:30 |
| cubexyz | and compress itself is a johnny-come-lately | Dec 10 04:34 |
| cubexyz | like 4.3BSD era | Dec 10 04:34 |
| cubexyz | then we had the whole LZW algorithm with "patent pending" | Dec 10 04:36 |
| cubexyz | there's no universal archiver either | Dec 10 04:38 |
| cubexyz | only specific data formats for different eras in time | Dec 10 04:39 |
| MinceR | there's a Unified Extensible Firmware Interface, though | Dec 10 04:39 |
| cubexyz | I guess ASCII is the closest thing to a universally understood format | Dec 10 04:39 |
| MinceR | it will boot any OS you want, as long as it's windows. | Dec 10 04:40 |
| MinceR | there's also a Universal Operating System | Dec 10 04:40 |
| MinceR | it will run anything you want as pid1, as long as it's systemd. | Dec 10 04:40 |
| cubexyz | what universally archiving system is there really? | Dec 10 04:43 |
| cubexyz | printouts? | Dec 10 04:43 |
| MinceR | stone inscriptions | Dec 10 04:45 |
| MinceR | monoliths, pyramids | Dec 10 04:46 |
| MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | Dec 10 04:46 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Dec 10 04:53 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 04:53 |
| schestowitz | > We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completed | Dec 10 04:53 |
| schestowitz | > the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confident | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware. | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard to | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone. | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future. | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | > All the best, | Dec 10 04:54 |
| schestowitz | We might have a Qubes interview coming... | Dec 10 04:54 |
| *WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has left #techrights ("this sucks ima go..") | Dec 10 05:03 | |
| cubexyz | lol EULA: | Dec 10 05:08 |
| cubexyz | EULA : Exercising Unique Lawyer Arguments to shirk any and every responsibility and/or liability | Dec 10 05:08 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 10 05:10 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674820283182817281 | Dec 10 05:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @EconomistRadio @schestowitz Sure but doesn't do Snowden any good.:/ | Dec 10 05:24 | |
| schestowitz | There will be massive protests today in Munich and it would be useful to show poliicians' support for these | Dec 10 05:35 |
| schestowitz | (EPO) | Dec 10 05:35 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674828200531374080 | Dec 10 05:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz What is openssh? Using a cloud just seems awfully ignorant. | Dec 10 05:50 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started. Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives. Yes we have to change away from old school MBR and BIOS because new items had outgrown them. Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in even a 4kb MBR. | Dec 10 05:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR and cubexyz that does not say UEFI could not be improved or replaced with some better. | Dec 10 05:56 |
| cubexyz | can't you just partition the drive? | Dec 10 05:59 |
| cubexyz | the whole MBR thing was from MSDOS | Dec 10 06:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: kinda not. MBR if sector size is 512 max drive size is 2TB if sector size is 2KB max drive size is 8TB. | Dec 10 06:03 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: reading and processing MBR was built into standard PC BIOS. | Dec 10 06:03 |
| cubexyz | you're thinking wholly in Microsoftian terms | Dec 10 06:04 |
| cubexyz | althought I'm not sure what other alternatives exist | Dec 10 06:05 |
| cubexyz | wasn't there syslinux and extlinux? | Dec 10 06:06 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel support a large number of platforms different options to MBR. | Dec 10 06:06 |
| oiaohm | Most screwed up around 2TB | Dec 10 06:06 |
| oiaohm | This is why around EFI this was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table developed. | Dec 10 06:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | GUID Partition Table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 10 06:06 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: section of PC bios interpert calls depend on number of sectors on drive to stay under particular limit values. Basically 512 sector size bios interpts can only address a 2TB drive. | Dec 10 06:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: to use the drivers embedded behind PC Bios your drive size is crippled. Solutions like corebios directly loading Linux and other OS and UEFI/EFI loaders allows you to use firmware provided drivers to access larger harddrives. | Dec 10 06:12 |
| cubexyz | there's the 32-bit sector limit | Dec 10 06:19 |
| cubexyz | of course, I haven't hit that limit myself | Dec 10 06:20 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://stanislavs.org/helppc/int_13.html this is the problem interpert. | Dec 10 06:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stanislavs.org | int 13 | Dec 10 06:21 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: modern harddrive design and controls have a 128bit sector limit. | Dec 10 06:21 |
| cubexyz | I think my largest drive is an 80 gig | Dec 10 06:22 |
| oiaohm | Basically hardware has evolved to be larger than PC BIOS is designed to cope with. | Dec 10 06:22 |
| cubexyz | I assume the CSM can handle large drives? | Dec 10 06:23 |
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| cubexyz | if you don't use UEFI there must be an alternative | Dec 10 06:24 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: bad news if you mean UEFI Compatibility Support Module the CSM module alone does not promise the larger drive size support. | Dec 10 06:25 |
| cubexyz | also Linux has the nogpt boot argument | Dec 10 06:25 |
| oiaohm | The way to run old OS on new super huge harddrives would be to UEFI load a hypervisor like Xen and have it break the huge drive up into make fake smaller drives. | Dec 10 06:26 |
| cubexyz | this seems very short sighted | Dec 10 06:30 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is a horrible one. gpt drive has a wrapper MBR. Due to the MBR not being the full size of the drive some PC BIOSs throw temper tantruim and refuse to boot because MBR has to be invalid. | Dec 10 06:31 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so the nogpt flag is required for that old hardware. | Dec 10 06:31 |
| cubexyz | right, but it can work | Dec 10 06:31 |
| oiaohm | Yes a lot of that old hardware will not boot if you put a large new drive in them. | Dec 10 06:31 |
| cubexyz | I'll try it sometime :) | Dec 10 06:32 |
| oiaohm | Unless you tell the drive to lie to be smaller. | Dec 10 06:32 |
| oiaohm | So you have to be mode switching your drives and hopefully never screw it up. | Dec 10 06:32 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically like it or not we have to leave PC BIOS behind at some point. | Dec 10 06:33 |
| oiaohm | Most likely we have used PC BIOS well past it use by date. | Dec 10 06:34 |
| cubexyz | not to mention my old boards have IDE | Dec 10 06:35 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: that I understand the fact that I cannot say on PC BIOS why I am more focused on pushing stuff to make UEFI workable. | Dec 10 06:39 |
| oiaohm | say/stay | Dec 10 06:40 |
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| cubexyz | syslinux v4 has support for old bios | Dec 10 06:45 |
| cubexyz | I figured someone would address the problem | Dec 10 06:46 |
| cubexyz | so the question becomes 'which distros use syslinux >= 4 | Dec 10 06:46 |
| oiaohm | from an hardware point of view it gets problem. Having to report 1 size so bios works then another size so OS can access complete drive just opens up doors to trouble. | Dec 10 06:48 |
| cubexyz | how about a card that soups up your old bios? | Dec 10 06:51 |
| cubexyz | or just use some SSD to IDE thing | Dec 10 06:52 |
| cubexyz | there's always some answer to these types of problems | Dec 10 06:53 |
| cubexyz | remember Seagate DiskWizard? | Dec 10 06:56 |
| cubexyz | perhaps there is a linux version | Dec 10 06:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: those wizard were about making stuff lie. | Dec 10 07:10 |
| oiaohm | And of course you would run into cases where it did not stop lieing after the OS was loaded. | Dec 10 07:10 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically best solution fix the firmware so it can cope with it properly. | Dec 10 07:11 |
| oiaohm | http://techreport.com/news/29410/dell-toshiba-and-lenovo-utilities-expose-pcs-to-more-attacks This makes me wonder with history like this can we really trust ODM to be in charge of firmware. | Dec 10 10:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techreport.com | Dell, Toshiba, and Lenovo utilities expose PCs to more attacks - The Tech Report [ http://ur1.ca/oc5cz ] | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674886622459133954 | Dec 10 10:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Complete bullshit @schestowitz https://t.co/qMKF9CAa5Q | Dec 10 10:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.businessinsider.com | Microsoft wants to train you to Linux - Business Insider | Dec 10 10:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6903957 | Dec 10 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The @linuxfoundation won't allow #torvalds to criticise #microsoft for much longer http://betanews.com/2015/12/09/microsoft-linux-foundation-azure-certification/ http://www.networkworld.com/article/3013473/microsoft-subnet/microsoft-to-offer-a-linux-based-cert-for-azure-admins.html | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> betanews.com | Microsoft partners with The Linux Foundation for 'Linux on Azure' certification | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | "That they admitted defeat…" | Dec 10 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.networkworld.com | Microsoft to offer a Linux-based cert for Azure admins | Network World | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | Would you personally interpret it that way? | Dec 10 10:16 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896452783579141 | Dec 10 10:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita https://t.co/KADdN5xXBf | Dec 10 10:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo protest in less than an hour. Nice and sunny in #munich https://t.co/ycP7YKswro | Dec 10 10:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896876597039105 | Dec 10 10:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @GreyBservices @schestowitz @FOSSpatents What a scandal! EPO staff should not contact anyone without permission! | Dec 10 10:25 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: not exactly Microsoft profiting from Linux Foundations money making game. So torvalds will still criticise Microsoft for a while yet. | Dec 10 10:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AdV007/status/674899793097957376 | Dec 10 10:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AdV007: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Yup: #FBI - killing US tech industry for your safety! #backdoor #encryption | Dec 10 10:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674900306505760768 | Dec 10 10:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents doesnt this sound like that they want to regulate personal lives of their staff? | Dec 10 10:37 | |
| schestowitz | Even illness (or #epo staff) is not allowed, or at least strongly discouraged http://techrights.org/2015/12/06/epo-sick-leave-gaming/ | Dec 10 10:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc5f5 ] | Dec 10 10:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901256368988160 | Dec 10 10:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 10:44 | |
| schestowitz | " I first read that as Kardashians. Kazakstan, not much better." | Dec 10 10:44 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901321837887488 | Dec 10 10:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 10:44 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: you have to remember when Linus gave the finger to Nvidia 1 it was at a Nvidia sponsered event 2 Nvidia was/and still is chipping into the Linux foundation. | Dec 10 10:49 |
| schestowitz | > old: | Dec 10 10:50 |
| schestowitz | > https://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/kopimism-level-1-the-creation/ | Dec 10 10:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-christianengstrom.wordpress.com | A Kopimist Gospel — Book 1: The Creation | Christian Engström, Pirat | Dec 10 10:50 | |
| schestowitz | Are people taking this seriously? IMHO as self-discrediting as "Church of emacs/gnu" | Dec 10 10:50 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903117402497024 | Dec 10 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @schestowitz @KrapulaPhD @FOSSpatents great post Dr. Roy. Kind of amazed or surprised or whatever you call it! | Dec 10 10:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903412174024704 | Dec 10 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents pretty much right Krapula. EPO is behaving like a spy agency. | Dec 10 10:51 | |
| schestowitz | "Worse actually, bleh.:/" | Dec 10 10:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674904367108128768 | Dec 10 10:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Well technically you can be poor and still find some of the best curry spices for cheap. Just know where to look. | Dec 10 10:52 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 10:54 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ppetrovdotnet/status/674905245940588544 | Dec 10 11:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ppetrovdotnet: Https is not enough! Http is old, too old! https://t.co/4WeWp15Te7 | Dec 10 11:03 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "I used to work for a company I'm sure you have heard of -- Two letters, starts with a G." https://t.co/cmjQAhkHRM #ge | Dec 10 11:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674905514661257216 | Dec 10 11:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita @POLITICOEurope https://t.co/0oATTOYi2V | Dec 10 11:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo staff protest "Thursday 10 December, starting from the Pschorrhöfe building at 12h." 5 minutes from now https://t.co/4DQH4gIQPY #suepo | Dec 10 11:04 | |
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| MinceR | 065512 < oiaohm> MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started. Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives. Yes we have to change away from old school MBR | Dec 10 14:08 |
| MinceR | and BIOS because new items had outgrown them. Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in | Dec 10 14:08 |
| MinceR | even a 4kb MBR. | Dec 10 14:09 |
| MinceR | yet another poor excuse | Dec 10 14:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No its not a poor excuse | Dec 10 14:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The reality is the time of the old BIOS design is over. | Dec 10 14:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: using 4kb size breaks lot of the older OS as well. | Dec 10 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Even using the 2KB solution has problems. | Dec 10 14:16 |
| MinceR | apparently the time of the general purpose computer is over as well | Dec 10 14:16 |
| MinceR | and the time of computers that do what the user/owner wants | Dec 10 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Just because the time of PC BIOS is over does not mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Of the idea of general purpose computer. | Dec 10 14:17 |
| MinceR | well, according to you, storage devices getting bigger is sufficient justification for uefi | Dec 10 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Does mean there is a battle to be fort. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| MinceR | from which it follows that bigger storage devices mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| MinceR | it's absurd, but it's what you said | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | I said EFI was started because of that problem. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Or course coreboot also addresses the problem. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Trying to say with BIOS is just going to become more and more not workable. | Dec 10 14:19 |
| oiaohm | The fixes to extend BIOS will break it compadiblity with older OS as well. | Dec 10 14:20 |
| MinceR | it's impossible to fit the bootloader in the first 2TB of the drive? i doubt that. | Dec 10 14:21 |
| MinceR | if all else fails, they could just add a replaceable flash memory card on the mainboard to hold some of the boot code | Dec 10 14:21 |
| oiaohm | It is as the drives get bigger and you are needing to use 32 bit modes to access stuff. | Dec 10 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Basically you out grow what you can do in a single sector. | Dec 10 14:22 |
| MinceR | we already had to fit stuff in the first whatever bytes of the HDD and it worked | Dec 10 14:23 |
| oiaohm | The reality for a long time the complete loader has not fitted in the MBR. | Dec 10 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Instead it been a stub loader. | Dec 10 14:24 |
| oiaohm | Something like coreboot loading directly loading the loader could be anywere in a on a PB or larger drive. | Dec 10 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Or in a motherboard flash device. | Dec 10 14:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot obeys doing what the user wants as long as user can in fact install it. | Dec 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Way more than BIOS does. | Dec 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | So someone making arguement for boot guard and other things opened up path for coreboot makes sense. | Dec 10 14:31 |
| MinceR | and the stub loader still fits there | Dec 10 14:31 |
| oiaohm | EFI gone with put all loaders in a 1 partition somewhere on drive. Key words somewhere on drive. | Dec 10 14:32 |
| oiaohm | So you can technically put EFI loader partition after any ammount of space. | Dec 10 14:32 |
| MinceR | and by doing so it sets not only the filesystem but also the partitioning scheme in stone | Dec 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | But a lot of implementations of UEFI and EFI are broekan. | Dec 10 14:33 |
| MinceR | not caring about the future is the way of the future! | Dec 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Staying with BIOS sets using MBR limitations. | Dec 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Chosing coreboot would be about choosing to be able to use what ever partition scheme you like. | Dec 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but you have been arguement why cannot we stay with BIOS. The reality is your points against EFI a lot of them are a reason not to stay with BIOS. | Dec 10 14:36 |
| oiaohm | The time of bios is over. The time to fight for freedom in the it replacement. Preferably to have more freedom than we already had. | Dec 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not I do care about the future and this is why I say the time of BIOS is over. No point keeping on attempting to prop a dead horse and pretending its a live horse. | Dec 10 14:39 |
| MinceR | it's still better than uefi | Dec 10 14:40 |
| MinceR | making things even worse is not a solution | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | UEFI is techically a live horse in the race. | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | So like or not it techically can win. | Dec 10 14:40 |
| MinceR | technically uefi is the end of the PC | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | No uefi as it developed has become less and less restrictive in implementations. | Dec 10 14:41 |
| MinceR | because only allowing winblows to be booted is "less restrictive"? | Dec 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | That is gone from modern forms where you can replace the secureboot keys. | Dec 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | This is also your problem MinceR you arguements don't keep up with the current state of UEFI. | Dec 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Could with enough presume UEFI boot secuirty be lighted even more yes it could. | Dec 10 14:43 |
| oiaohm | prsume/ pressure | Dec 10 14:44 |
| MinceR | your problem is that you ignore m$'s agenda and what they're doing about it | Dec 10 14:47 |
| oiaohm | This is one of your fall back arugments and normally a sign that you have not done your homework. | Dec 10 14:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: can you explain why newer forms UEFI standard allows loaders be multi signed. One combination signed by Microsoft and signed by your own company/distrobution | Dec 10 14:50 |
| oiaohm | This does not match to following Microsoft agenda. | Dec 10 14:51 |
| MinceR | apparently ignoring m$'s logo requirements was my homework | Dec 10 14:51 |
| MinceR | good to know | Dec 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | To be correct you did not read the MS Logo requirements completely either. | Dec 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | It mandates that the UEFI implmentation conforms the most modern form. | Dec 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | The form that makes it possible to strip the MS KEK out. | Dec 10 14:52 |
| MinceR | what about ARM? | Dec 10 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Even on ARM microsoft mandates the most current version but there has not been as far as a know any new Windows 10 devices using UEFI. | Dec 10 14:53 |
| oiaohm | The older MS Logo requirements mandated older UEFI those did not mandate that you could change the PK so you could be locked out. | Dec 10 14:54 |
| oiaohm | So MinceR things are not perfectly going in Microsoft favour either. | Dec 10 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Only major mother of issue I can see in current day UEFI for Microsoft favor is the possiblity of installing firmware updates reseting the PK/KEK settings. Reason why I am not exactly happen the section of UEFI covering firmware updating not giving users enough control. | Dec 10 14:58 |
| oiaohm | UEFI firmware update also under current UEFI design ship out based on platform MinceR. Now that is a true issue that could undermine the idea of a general computer than you can boot any OS. | Dec 10 15:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are spending so much time focused on secureboot that you have missed the truly leathal problem. | Dec 10 15:01 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: The most sick arguement for why end users were not to be given PK and KEK setting rights came from HP not Microsoft. The arguement was cost. That right HP wanted to keep the number of KEK enteries to a bare min so the could ship motherboard with the smallest flash possible. | Dec 10 15:15 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674969986247561216 | Dec 10 15:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz No, there are actually such things as unpaid Microsoft fanboys. | Dec 10 15:16 | |
| schestowitz | Well, if they're paid by Microsoft, I wouldn't call them "fans" | Dec 10 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep the term shills is used for those that a paid. | Dec 10 15:17 |
| oiaohm | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill Yes it an official employment title in some places. | Dec 10 15:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 10 15:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674971533916377088 | Dec 10 15:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Some of them are. But then again I have met people who supported Microsoft. And it actually cost them money. | Dec 10 15:19 | |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: you know the relationship between hp and m$, right? | Dec 10 15:45 |
| schestowitz | it's not as strong as the one with Dell | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | All companies in tech are connected to Microsoft | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | EVen non-tech, if they use Windows | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | HP isn't among the worst, even though many execs there came from Microsoft | Dec 10 15:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: HP was even saying that Microsoft not to have a KEK for OS and KEK for UEFI drivers instead just have one. It was a good mailing list read as you saw HP and Microsoft developers spitting chips at each other. | Dec 10 15:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes there is a releationship but ODM cost saving attempts from HP will see HP fight with Microsoft. | Dec 10 15:57 |
| MinceR | not the attempts to turn our computers into garbage, though | Dec 10 16:00 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: supporting only 1 OS per model would make ODM support staff be able to be cheaper and dumber. | Dec 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the issue people updatting Windows 7 and 8.1 laptops/computer to Windows 10 are running into as well. | Dec 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Microsoft want people only to run Microsoft OSs. Lot of ODM would perfer us to only run 1 OS. | Dec 10 16:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYb97uKCldI good watch. This is from 2014. Attackers do want to get into bios. | Dec 10 16:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | DEF CON 22 Summary of Attacks Against BIOS and Secure Boot - YouTube | Dec 10 16:20 | |
| schestowitz | "if you have a wikidot login, I can invite you to the epomustgo website" | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | "there are still some relevant infos on there" | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | To read or to write? I wouldn't want to go with the words "epomustgo" because we want only the management to go | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | International and | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | unions | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | federations | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | EPSU and FNV | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | for sending a | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | letter to the Dutch | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Prime Minister Mr | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Rutte denouncing | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | the abuse of | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | immunity by the | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | EPO; | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch Parliament | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | (Tweede Kamer) | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | for recently voting | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | a | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | motion | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | concerning | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | the | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | adherence by the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | European Patent | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | Organisation to | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | international | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | legislation. | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | 23 European and | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | 6 Dutch MPs for | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | continuing to ask | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | questions to the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | EU Commission | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | and to the Dutch | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | government | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | concerning the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | current crisis at | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | the EPO. | Dec 10 16:54 |
| MinceR | just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 16:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: unfortunately EPO is the worst design ever. EPO management gets to directly put forwards changes to the legislation they have to follow. | Dec 10 16:58 |
| MinceR | tell schestowitz that :> | Dec 10 16:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so changing the management could start fixing the legislation. | Dec 10 16:58 |
| oiaohm | But I would not hold out hope. | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | what about the legislation that is the basis for the existence of the epo? | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | unitary patent bullshit, iirc | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | also, even if the management could fix it in a dictatorial sort of way, it would be better to do so democratically, with clueful representative | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, we don't have those either | Dec 10 17:00 |
| oiaohm | Unitary patent bull crap was legislation was preposed by the EPO in the first place. The EPO was first founded to draft the rules for patents in the EU. | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | all we have is a huge hairball of corruption and the EPP | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 10 17:00 |
| oiaohm | So EPO is the nightmare of regulator and rule writer as the one group. | Dec 10 17:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Ideal should be cut EPO in two to start off with. | Dec 10 17:02 |
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| schestowitz | [16:55] <MinceR> just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 17:57 |
| schestowitz | EPO management breaks its own rules | Dec 10 17:57 |
| schestowitz | !google epo illegal judge suspension | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - The 'Sherlocks' of EPO/Spin-Doctoring Pretend That All of the EPO's ... | http://techrights.org/2015/10/16/crushing-dissent-at-epo/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - New Heise Article Makes It Clear That 'Nazi'-Themed Accusations ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/24/new-heise-article-makes-it-clear-that-nazi-themed-accusations-against-the-suspended-board-judge-were-insufficiently-substantiated/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - The Bogus Narrative Floated by EPO Management: Our Judges and ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/23/epo-scapegoat-tactics/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Exclusive: The Enlarged Board of Appeal Complains About ... | http://techrights.org/2014/12/09/exclusive-eboa/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: do they get punished for it? | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | they can break their own rules and nobody seems to enforce these | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: no | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | that's the point | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | why not? | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | they ignore the courts | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | see, the problem is that they get to ignore the courts | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | and their own rules | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | eponia | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | it wasn't this bad in the past | Dec 10 17:59 |
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| schestowitz | someone sent me docs of staff reps | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | (not from them, not with consent...) | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | >> Can you send these over? | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > I guess that they would want it that way, even though any further | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > publication would quite probably worsen their situation. I think it | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > would be better if you QUOTED selected portions from the documents, | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > rather than dumping all documents online. I can supply you with OCRd | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > versions if you wish. | Dec 10 19:45 |
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| Really | "In the future we’ll show how the EPO even takes advantage of cancer in the family. " Really? And then you are surprised that the BBC Journalist does not respond? Do you really think they could cite your blog when you also write this crap? C'mon ... | Dec 10 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | he didn't even wait until I showed the evidence | Dec 10 21:58 |
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| cubexyz | there isn't "one OS to rule them all" even for ODMs | Dec 10 22:11 |
| cubexyz | clearly chromebooks have sold in the millions | Dec 10 22:11 |
| cubexyz | and there's android of course | Dec 10 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675001605499015168 | Dec 11 00:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Please #follow @rights_info - excellent Twitter resource. Just under 10k. Would be great to get it over 10k on this "Human Rights Day". | Dec 11 00:02 | |
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| *Disconnected (). | Dec 11 00:27 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 11 00:27:00 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 11 00:27:14 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 11 00:27 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 11 00:27 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 11 00:27 | |
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| Ennemm | Just want to help correcting address for Swedish delegation ("Contacting national delegations") | Dec 11 08:56 |
| Ennemm | Beatrice Ask is no longer minister of justice, it's Morgan Johansson. Best way of contacting is via registrator of department of justice: ju.registrator@regeringskansliet.se | Dec 11 08:57 |
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| r_schestowitz | > Received these from a source I need to protect but I'm free to share, so | Dec 11 09:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > if you like, you can publish 1 or more of them. I won't publish them | Dec 11 09:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > just because I won't have time to do another EPO post this week and | Dec 11 09:26 |
| r_schestowitz | > probably not even next. | Dec 11 09:26 |
| r_schestowitz | Thank you. That first one will need to be shrunk a bit of pixelated. | Dec 11 09:26 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675248753675272192 | Dec 11 09:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season @schestowitz https://t.co/ibAy8PI7DK | Dec 11 09:45 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.theguardian.com | GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season | Technology | The Guardian | Dec 11 09:45 | |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675260122587930624 | Dec 11 10:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Know anything about the Open Invention Network #OIN? https://t.co/dS5KkyRQ2U cc:@schestowitz #FOSS #OpenSource #GNU/#Linux | Dec 11 10:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.openinventionnetwork.com | Home - Open Invention Network | Dec 11 10:30 | |
| r_schestowitz | I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 10:30 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Sheikh_al_Touar/status/675263079589011456 https://twitter.com/TheJusticeDept/status/672503183697182721 | Dec 11 10:40 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Sheikh_al_Touar: @TheJusticeDept @NewYorkFBI @EDNYnews @IRSnews @LorettaLynch @schestowitz European Patent Office + FIFA = much the same! USA investigations? | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.justice.gov | Sixteen Additional FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy and Corruption | OPA | Department of Justice | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675263475707441152 | Dec 11 10:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Alternatives? Unless one has deep pockets…once you start developing a project someone'll want to sue—even to stop it https://t.co/DujumDe4NN | Dec 11 10:41 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 10:41 | |
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| r_schestowitz | > " The take-home message (once again) is that well-studied, provably | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > secure encryption schemes that achieve strong definitions of security | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > (e.g., authenticated-encryption) are to be preferred to home-brewed | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > encryption schemes." | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177 | Dec 11 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-eprint.iacr.org | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/1177 | Dec 11 10:51 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > I expect at a future date a similar report on M$ OpenSSH derivative | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > since it is also using homespun encryption. | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | Fools will put their private keys on Windows | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675272871195774976 https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675273006625644545 | Dec 11 11:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I don't seriously turning off the spying features really turns it off. But maybe that's me being a cynic. | Dec 11 11:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Use Media Goblin, it has not Youtube Red. | Dec 11 11:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | ":Nice to see @DavidAllenGreen of @Preiskel mentioned in Private Eye 1407 re his representing @schestowitz (European Patent Office dispute)." | Dec 11 12:11 |
| r_schestowitz | Private Eye (again) | Dec 11 12:11 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675286772776099840 https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675287022194565124 | Dec 11 12:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: I'm currently unable to do this. Can anyone help @schestowitz ? The item is on p.18 of the current Private Eye. https://t.co/0mRxfHrosb | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Blue_Wode can you please take a photo and send to me? | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @schestowitz Unfortunately I can't at the moment, but I've put out a request for help. I'm pretty confident someone will get it for you. :) | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sean_t_ellis/status/675287851567812608 | Dec 11 12:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675288074276900864 | Dec 11 12:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @sean_t_ellis Many thanks! @schestowitz | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidBrooke_IP/status/675290914701602816 | Dec 11 12:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidBrooke_IP: .@PrivateEyeNews has picked up the @WorldIPReview story on the EPO's legal threat levelled against @schestowitz https://t.co/q2BpswFkuL | Dec 11 12:34 | |
| r_schestowitz | techrighjs in leading paper | Dec 11 12:34 |
| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/l4JqUyu.png | Dec 11 12:45 |
| cubexyz | I don't think snickers will put Hitler in their commercials | Dec 11 12:48 |
| cubexyz | just a hunch | Dec 11 12:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickers Interesting point is possible that Hitler had a snickers at some point thinking it was in production in 1930 | Dec 11 12:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Snickers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 11 12:59 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675299337346416640 | Dec 11 13:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open Source Owns the Web @schestowitz https://t.co/gVXRcnVBE0 | Dec 11 13:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bsdmag.org | Open Source Owns the Web | BSD MAG | Dec 11 13:06 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675303984429682689 | Dec 11 13:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @zoobab @schestowitz This says it all about he journalistic ethics of IAM. | Dec 11 13:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309167570247681 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: My work defending @schestowitz against the daft and illiberal legal threat of @EPOorg is featured in p 18 of @PrivateEyeNews | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675309275019943936 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Pic? | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: @zeno001 @schestowitz You can buy it and support great journalism ;-) | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/675310070876491776 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @zeno001 @DavidAllenGreen https://t.co/5X3IYR2XLG | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO Scandals in Private Eye Again | Techrights | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309652196900868 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Some of the correspondence in that case has been posted by @schestowitz at https://t.co/VmvKgi2Hjt You may find it amusing. | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | How the EPO Twisted Defamation Law in a Failed Bid to Silence Techrights | Techrights | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675310433948016640 | Dec 11 13:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Damn you for always being right... :-) | Dec 11 13:45 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112 | Dec 11 13:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @schestowitz Thanks! | Dec 11 13:48 | |
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| MinceR | "Call a man a faggot and offend him for a day. Teach a man to SJW and he'll be offended for a lifetime. " | Dec 11 16:56 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675310920126570497 | Dec 11 17:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: In essence, @EPOorg threatened an action in defamation when, as a matter of law, it was not able to. It was amusing to point this out. | Dec 11 17:17 | |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675311362877337600 | Dec 11 17:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It was such a basic howler, it was odd that @EPOorg even made the legal threat, let alone in such an aggressive way. | Dec 11 17:18 | |
| Dentist | Don't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ... | Dec 11 17:18 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675312841709195266 | Dec 11 17:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It is basic rule of defamation law that public bodies cannot sue in defamation. But none of @EPOorg's (then) lawyers realised this. | Dec 11 17:18 | |
| Dentist | So, a complete reworking of the smile in a top German practice (3000-10.000 EUR, if not more) how would it be not considered a bribe in any other European country? Not in the magical word of EPONIA! Where the President can count on the unwavering and smiling support of countries untouched by the progress of modern destistry: Macedonia! Albania! Croatia! Bulgaria! San Marino! | Dec 11 17:18 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112 | Dec 11 17:19 |
| r_schestowitz | hi Dentist | Dec 11 17:19 |
| MinceR | Molvania? | Dec 11 17:19 |
| r_schestowitz | [17:18] <Dentist> Don't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ... | Dec 11 17:19 |
| r_schestowitz | Any docs? | Dec 11 17:19 |
| r_schestowitz | Did IP Kat publish good proof and context? | Dec 11 17:20 |
| r_schestowitz | I follow Merpel but have not noticed this | Dec 11 17:20 |
| Dentist | Have a look at the comments at the IPKat. Points 45 and 46 of the minutes. | Dec 11 17:20 |
| r_schestowitz | which article? | Dec 11 17:20 |
| Dentist | http://ipkitten.blogspot.de/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html?showComment=1449838746530#c5140086158519968232 and further comments | Dec 11 17:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.de | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to Eponia | Dec 11 17:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | thanks | Dec 11 17:21 |
| r_schestowitz | not read the latest comments yet | Dec 11 17:21 |
| Dentist | My pleasure. | Dec 11 17:22 |
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| r_schestowitz | wow | Dec 11 17:24 |
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| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675369030937636865 | Dec 11 17:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @fattoquotidiano @ilgiornale @Corriereit @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico @VirusRai2 @redazioneiene https://t.co/UdQbo7yGYg | Dec 11 17:38 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Contacting National Delegations to Complain About the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/RaCEvR3L0z #epo | Dec 11 17:38 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6907052 | Dec 11 20:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for #Ubuntu 16.04 LTS http://news.softpedia.com/news/unity-7-online-search-is-being-dropped-for-ubuntu-16-04-lts-497425.shtml #gnu #linux #canonical | Dec 11 20:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for Ubuntu 16.04 LTS [ http://ur1.ca/oc8x7 ] | Dec 11 20:20 | |
| schestowitz | "Finally!" | Dec 11 20:20 |
| schestowitz | "Yes' | Dec 11 20:20 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 11 20:31:53 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 11 20:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 11 20:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 11 20:31 | |
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| schestowitz | "YES! :)" | Dec 11 20:35 |
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| Happens | anyone here? | Dec 11 22:24 |
| XRevan86 | Happens: Affirmative. | Dec 11 22:25 |
| Happens | cool | Dec 11 22:25 |
| Happens | Just curious about this site,so I am just exploring. | Dec 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/getsunT.jpg | Dec 11 22:30 |
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| Happens_ | Hmm, IRC not practical when browseing in a different tab... At least on this apparatus. | Dec 11 22:31 |
| MinceR | dedicated irc clients tend to work better than web clients | Dec 11 22:31 |
| MinceR | especially weechat and irssi | Dec 11 22:31 |
| Happens_ | iOS on this tablet, possibly this WE. | Dec 11 22:32 |
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| Happens | Is Dr. Schestowitz always this productive? | Dec 11 22:34 |
| Happens | (also: not going to log in again if I get shot out again - in case that happens I wish you all a fne weekend!) | Dec 11 22:35 |
| Happens | already shot down again? | Dec 11 22:37 |
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| Happens | Okay, have a fine weekend, I might have some time after having skimmed a few more or those articles. | Dec 11 22:38 |
| Happens | Best wishes to all! | Dec 11 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.informationweek.com/cloud/microsoft-red-hat-alliance-shows-growing-cloud-influence/a/d-id/1323013 | Dec 12 00:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.informationweek.com | Microsoft, Red Hat Alliance Shows Growing Cloud Influence - InformationWeek [ http://ur1.ca/oc9bj ] | Dec 12 00:22 | |
| schestowitz | Several other Linux suppliers signed up, though they tended to be the likes of Melco Group, Xandos, Linspire, and LG Electronics. (Image: julos/iStockphoto). It was never clear to me whether they were paying Microsoft royalties or whether Microsoft was " | Dec 12 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Xandros did | Dec 12 00:22 |
| cubexyz | paid microsoft royalties for...? | Dec 12 00:25 |
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| cubexyz | Microsoft itself pays royalties I would imagine | Dec 12 00:36 |
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| schestowitz | #EPO “Doesn't Actually Deny That There's a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-fast-track-project/ | Dec 12 07:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | New Private Eye Article Says EPO “Doesn’t Actually Deny That There’s a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc9x0 ] | Dec 12 07:53 | |
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| schestowitz | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-money-motive/ | Dec 12 09:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oca09 ] | Dec 12 09:08 | |
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| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 06 01:15 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: To be correct its a lot more information. Accelerated-x comes forwards to current day. | Dec 06 01:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: but most of the forks were dead by 2004 | Dec 06 01:19 |
| cubexyz | the web site says "since 1994" | Dec 06 01:32 |
| cubexyz | also says Accelerated-X was developed by Xi Graphics 'from stratch' | Dec 06 01:33 |
| cubexyz | scratch | Dec 06 01:34 |
| cubexyz | there's a linux demo, might be interesting to check out | Dec 06 01:36 |
| cubexyz | not to mention there's SuSE's XGL and Redhat has AIGLX | Dec 06 01:41 |
| MinceR | afaik AIGLX was not a separate x server though | Dec 06 01:42 |
| MinceR | that's what made it different from XGL | Dec 06 01:42 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/history-of-x.txt | Dec 06 01:42 |
| cubexyz | slightly amended | Dec 06 01:42 |
| MinceR | https://i.chzbgr.com/full/8591479296/hB7B3AD54/ | Dec 06 02:09 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/yo-dawg-i-heard-you-like-fees.jpg | Dec 06 02:11 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, that just looks weird | Dec 06 02:11 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 06 02:12 |
| *tessier is now known as teamtessier | Dec 06 03:17 | |
| *teamtessier is now known as tessier | Dec 06 03:17 | |
| oiaohm | I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it. http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot Every PK has a expire date. | Dec 06 03:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux Journal | Dec 06 03:24 | |
| oiaohm | Something fun when you buy a computer with UEFI they don't tell you what date is the expire of the PK. | Dec 06 03:24 |
| cubexyz | secure boot sucks | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | I can't run Plan 9, I can't run AROS? | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | it's bullshit | Dec 06 04:52 |
| cubexyz | give me a motherboard that does not have secure boot | Dec 06 04:54 |
| cubexyz | Linux distributors shouldn't need to sign with Microsoft | Dec 06 05:00 |
| cubexyz | even on old PDP-11 systems there was a bunch of different operating systems | Dec 06 05:07 |
| cubexyz | DOS-11, DSM-11, RSX-11, Ultrix, Unix even TRIPOS | Dec 06 05:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a motherboard having secure boot does not mean it has to contain a Microsoft KEK. | Dec 06 05:12 |
| cubexyz | I heard that OEMs are fusing SHA256 public keys into the southbridge | Dec 06 05:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that is boot guard the firmware protection key. Not the PK of secureboot. | Dec 06 05:16 |
| oiaohm | The PK of secure boot has a built in time expire factor. | Dec 06 05:16 |
| oiaohm | So push the computer clock far enough forwards and the installed PK will fail. | Dec 06 05:16 |
| cubexyz | this is why coreboot works on older Thinkpads and outdated intel motherboards but not new ones | Dec 06 05:20 |
| cubexyz | so that is definitely a problem | Dec 06 05:20 |
| cubexyz | I don't want to mess around with PKs, KEKs and other stuff like that | Dec 06 05:21 |
| oiaohm | To truth PK and KEK make sense with the number of boot loader level infections that have existed over the years. | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | no Microsoft bullshit wanted | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | I can secure my own BIOS | Dec 06 05:23 |
| oiaohm | PK in most motherboards you are free to swap with you own. | Dec 06 05:23 |
| cubexyz | I have a programmer, and can check every byte of it | Dec 06 05:23 |
| oiaohm | Then with you own PK you are free to choose if you have Microsoft KEK or Ubuntu or Someone elese. | Dec 06 05:24 |
| cubexyz | yes, but what if I want Plan 9 or some other obscure OS? | Dec 06 05:24 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: No PK and the motherboards by default UEFI design will boot anything. | Dec 06 05:24 |
| oiaohm | as long as it a EFI loader of course. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| oiaohm | secureboot current design can be annoying but not that much of a problem. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| oiaohm | Boot guard stuff with keys written into fuses that is another matter. | Dec 06 05:25 |
| cubexyz | I might have to use old hardware in some cases | Dec 06 05:26 |
| cubexyz | I don't think Plan 9 supports USB keyboard, at least I'm not sure | Dec 06 05:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: boot guard worries me more. | Dec 06 05:26 |
| cubexyz | it | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | Like everything in secureboot in the form of keys ie the PK and KEK you can replace. So if some attack breaches one of those keys you can remove them from you system. | Dec 06 05:27 |
| cubexyz | it's not a problem stockpiling old stuff, there must be a million P3 motherboards that no one wants | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | boot guard written into fuses what happens if the signing key gets in the wild. | Dec 06 05:27 |
| oiaohm | So you might not be able to change the firmware but some hostile person can. what fun. | Dec 06 05:28 |
| cubexyz | we are dependent on OEMs making motherboards that we like | Dec 06 05:28 |
| cubexyz | no, the bad guys can't really brick my old computers | Dec 06 05:29 |
| cubexyz | even if they blanked out the BIOS I am ready :) | Dec 06 05:29 |
| cubexyz | also as you pointed out there is Raspberry PI 2 | Dec 06 05:31 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that does not have secure boot right? | Dec 06 05:31 |
| cubexyz | I think it uses u-boot | Dec 06 05:32 |
| oiaohm | This is why I don't fear UEFI secureboot that much. https://lwn.net/Articles/571031/ People don't know u-boot and other things. | Dec 06 05:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Verified U-Boot [LWN.net] | Dec 06 05:34 | |
| oiaohm | Yes u-boot you can run into a signed boot problem cubexyz | Dec 06 05:34 |
| oiaohm | Worse u-boot does not have design to bipass it like UEFI has if you have boot gaurd like stuff protecting u-boot | Dec 06 05:35 |
| cubexyz | not on Raspberry PI though | Dec 06 05:35 |
| oiaohm | Raspberry PI CPU does support signed firmware protection. | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | in the 2 | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | Just it not enabled. | Dec 06 05:36 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically a Respbery PI 2 is not that much different to a UEFI motherboard without PK or boot guard enabled even that it has the features. | Dec 06 05:37 |
| cubexyz | no fans and no heat sink | Dec 06 05:40 |
| oiaohm | There are UEFI motherboards without fans or heatsinks. | Dec 06 05:41 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://wiki.linaro.org/ARM/UEFI | Dec 06 05:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.linaro.org | ARM/UEFI - Linaro Wiki | Dec 06 05:42 | |
| oiaohm | Yep UEFI is on arm as well as x86 | Dec 06 05:42 |
| cubexyz | nothing ATX though | Dec 06 05:42 |
| oiaohm | I understand the security requirements for boot guard the firmware. | Dec 06 05:43 |
| oiaohm | What I don't understand is why the signing keys could not be placed in a block of flash with a physical write protect switch. | Dec 06 05:44 |
| oiaohm | This way if you wanted to you could replace the firmware | Dec 06 05:44 |
| cubexyz | I can already do that though | Dec 06 05:44 |
| oiaohm | blow fuse links to record a signing key has other problems as well. | Dec 06 05:45 |
| oiaohm | What if something blows a few more links. | Dec 06 05:45 |
| oiaohm | So this will mean more motherboards in the ruined pile. | Dec 06 05:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I have always backed the idea that all firmware should have a write protect switch because users/makers don't update it all the time. | Dec 06 05:47 |
| cubexyz | I'm pretty sure some motherboards had a jumper for that | Dec 06 05:47 |
| cubexyz | older ones | Dec 06 05:47 |
| oiaohm | a lot had clear cmos settings jumper. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | but not a lock firmware switch. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | Only thing I know with lock firmware switchs is chromebooks. | Dec 06 05:48 |
| oiaohm | The thing to remeber is groups like the NSA are free to use any method the like to attempt to get there hands on signing half of a public key. | Dec 06 05:50 |
| oiaohm | Only way you can be sure you will know about a signing half breach is if you are the one in charge of it. | Dec 06 05:51 |
| cubexyz | no, I'm sure that ECS motherboards had CLR_CMOS and BIOS_WP jumpers | Dec 06 05:51 |
| cubexyz | so there were 2 jumpers | Dec 06 05:51 |
| oiaohm | I have never come in contact with an ECS brand motherboard. | Dec 06 05:52 |
| cubexyz | http://www.ecs.com.tw | Dec 06 05:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ecs.com.tw | NO TITLE | Dec 06 05:52 | |
| cubexyz | anyway, they exist(ed) | Dec 06 05:57 |
| cubexyz | might be a pain finding one | Dec 06 05:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: interesting brand. First one I have seen with physicaly switches for power and reset on the motherboard. | Dec 06 05:58 |
| cubexyz | useful :) | Dec 06 05:58 |
| cubexyz | BIOS is also socketed | Dec 06 06:00 |
| cubexyz | bad guy can't do anything to the BIOS without physical access | Dec 06 06:03 |
| oiaohm | That is if the bios has a write protect switch. | Dec 06 06:05 |
| oiaohm | physical security on computers is still crap. | Dec 06 06:05 |
| oiaohm | Ok physical security for most computer is still crap. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | socketed TPM chips are since there is not a unified standard for them. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | is hell. | Dec 06 06:06 |
| cubexyz | older computers had ROMs | Dec 06 06:06 |
| oiaohm | Exactly | Dec 06 06:07 |
| cubexyz | you had to change the chip to upgrade the BIOS/firmware | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Attackers had to have physical access to mess with the bios in the time of roms. | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | Come forwards to flash and attacker could in infect the BIOS with a program. | Dec 06 06:07 |
| oiaohm | All the boot guard stuff is avoiding the KISS idea. If physical switch was added most of the boot guard stuff would be pointless. | Dec 06 06:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: think about it how often do you change bios settings. Maybe 1 a year if lucky. | Dec 06 06:10 |
| oiaohm | Firmware is only really updated 1 or 2 a year. | Dec 06 06:10 |
| cubexyz | on one computer I changed the settings a lot | Dec 06 06:11 |
| oiaohm | But you would not call that normal cubexyz | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | one machine was for msdos games and had "sound blaser emulation on/off" | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | no, not normal | Dec 06 06:11 |
| oiaohm | For normal PC the firmware only need to be writeable of a max of 3 days a year. | Dec 06 06:11 |
| cubexyz | would BIOS write protect stop user from just changing the settings? | Dec 06 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Depends where the settings are stored. | Dec 06 06:12 |
| oiaohm | Like if BIOS and CMOS settings are stored in the same flash chip it could. | Dec 06 06:13 |
| oiaohm | Of course it would not cost that much more to have a flash chip each for that. | Dec 06 06:13 |
| cubexyz | e.g. my QDI motherboard has BIOS protect in CMOS | Dec 06 06:13 |
| cubexyz | but I can turn it off | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | but that's different of course | Dec 06 06:14 |
| oiaohm | You want physical. | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | right | Dec 06 06:14 |
| oiaohm | I have software for overwriting CMOS from boot disc. | Dec 06 06:14 |
| cubexyz | I could also remove the BIOS chip and reprogram it | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | Once attack is physical you are screwed anyhow. | Dec 06 06:15 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | Why because you can extend the BIOS by what cards have on them that you insert into slots. | Dec 06 06:15 |
| oiaohm | remove and reprogram bios chip is a lot slower than adding a card. | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | it is, but I glued thumb tacks on mine :) | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | coreboot stuff you know | Dec 06 06:16 |
| cubexyz | zif socket would have been a lot better really | Dec 06 06:17 |
| oiaohm | I have used a forced boot card before. | Dec 06 06:17 |
| cubexyz | MSI MS-7067 also has BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 06 06:18 |
| cubexyz | so they did exist, but were uncommon | Dec 06 06:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: a force boot card forces a computer to come up even if it BIOS chip is removed. | Dec 06 06:18 |
| cubexyz | nifty | Dec 06 06:18 |
| oiaohm | In fact CPU and bios can be removed. | Dec 06 06:19 |
| cubexyz | where do you get a card like that? And I assume it's PCI? | Dec 06 06:19 |
| cubexyz | how would the force boot card know how to initialize memory registers? | Dec 06 06:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you just mentioned why they are a pain and expensive. | Dec 06 06:22 |
| oiaohm | Each forced boot card matchs to a motherboard or motherboard series. | Dec 06 06:22 |
| cubexyz | ah I see | Dec 06 06:22 |
| oiaohm | Of course the reason why they can cope with missing cpu is they have a cpu on board. | Dec 06 06:23 |
| oiaohm | So they take control of the system from bus side. | Dec 06 06:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: rapid diagnose for warnarty repairs they exist for. So no point send out a new motherboard if everything else in the system is bust right. | Dec 06 06:24 |
| cubexyz | I know about Post cards, but this sounds like something a lot more elaborate | Dec 06 06:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are 3 levels. | Dec 06 06:28 |
| oiaohm | Post cards that just print out information that the system spits out all the time. | Dec 06 06:28 |
| oiaohm | http://www.uxd.com/phdpci2.shtml Items like this with a light microcontroller that can probe themselves. | Dec 06 06:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uxd.com | P.H.D. PCI 2 - Professional Hardware Diagnostics PCI | Dec 06 06:29 | |
| oiaohm | then the fine level what are forced boot cards that bring the system back to life allowing you todo data recovery simply. | Dec 06 06:30 |
| oiaohm | fine/final | Dec 06 06:30 |
| cubexyz | looks expensive | Dec 06 06:31 |
| oiaohm | Not only looks expensive. | Dec 06 06:32 |
| oiaohm | phd pci2 is about ~800 USD | Dec 06 06:32 |
| oiaohm | And that is cheep compared to a force boot card. | Dec 06 06:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: forced boot cards start at about 1500 and go up normally you rent them as part of warnaty support agreement. | Dec 06 06:34 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: It quite a privilage to get to use a forced boot card. | Dec 06 06:36 |
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| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 06 08:34 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 06 08:34 | |
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| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 06 10:04 | |
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| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 06 10:04 | |
| MinceR | https://i.imgur.com/oKS4a0M.jpg | Dec 06 10:32 |
| MinceR | 042358 < oiaohm> I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it. | Dec 06 10:32 |
| MinceR | http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot Every PK has a expire date. | Dec 06 10:32 |
| MinceR | like i said, uefi sucks | Dec 06 10:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux Journal | Dec 06 10:32 | |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: the expire date is a key to bypass UEFI if you cannot access some form of UEFI configuration. Once PK is expired it like you have deleted the PK key. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basially UEFI has a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but something like u-boot verified does not have a designed in backdoor. | Dec 06 10:49 |
| MinceR | calling uefi "designed" sounds like an overstatement | Dec 06 10:50 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The flaw was designed in. First version of UEFI did not have a PK expire option. | Dec 06 10:52 |
| oiaohm | No encryption key should have a unlimited life. That was forced by NIST requirements. | Dec 06 10:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not somethings about UEFI were designed/mandated. | Dec 06 10:54 |
| MinceR | then booting should not require an encryption key | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was the ludicrous bloated designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | s/ted/t/ | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was the extreme reliance on m$ formats designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:55 |
| MinceR | was making winblows' idiotic practice of keeping the system clock set to local time (including DST) designed or mandated? | Dec 06 10:56 |
| MinceR | s/)/& "standard"/ | Dec 06 10:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST is behind the mandation of signed loading. This is why it appears in u-boot and stack of other solutions as well. | Dec 06 10:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: system clock set to DST goes back to early Unix before MSDos existed. | Dec 06 11:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so if system clock should be DST, Time Offset or GMT goes back before Microsoft even made it first sale. | Dec 06 11:01 |
| MinceR | and was fixed before even PCs existed | Dec 06 11:01 |
| oiaohm | No it was not fixed before PC existed. | Dec 06 11:02 |
| MinceR | uefi is supposed to be "modern", isn't it? | Dec 06 11:02 |
| oiaohm | UEFI in fact does not make any choice on what system time should be. | Dec 06 11:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all Unixs you can choose what ever you wish the system clock is set as. | Dec 06 11:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also http://superuser.com/questions/482860/does-windows-8-support-utc-as-bios-time Windows does have means of locking clock to UTC/GMT/DST | Dec 06 11:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-superuser.com | Does Windows 8 support UTC as BIOS time? - Super User | Dec 06 11:05 | |
| oiaohm | Problem Microsoft makes it a complete pain in the ass to set that is all MinceR | Dec 06 11:05 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap. | Dec 06 12:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/673490353706704896 | Dec 06 13:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Точно. В Apple нет ничего передового. Это, действительно, просто очередная религия. https://t.co/EgtJkAUVQI | Dec 06 13:20 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #apple is lying about Open Source https://t.co/AoMNLyWREM than again, to many it's a religion, they'll believe anything... | Dec 06 13:20 | |
| XRevan86 | Russian? In #techrights? :) | Dec 06 13:24 |
| XFaCE | XRevan86: it's more likely than you think | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: Точно. | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XFaCE | I didn't say I speak russian :P | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XFaCE | despite some EasternEuro ancestors :P | Dec 06 13:25 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: "That's right" :) | Dec 06 13:31 |
| XFaCE | :) | Dec 06 13:33 |
| XRevan86 | "@Zeipt Right. Apple has nothing advanced. It's really just yet another religion." | Dec 06 13:40 |
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| oiaohm | The bad news here apple is not exactly lying about open source. | Dec 06 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Please remember Apple 1 were kit construction with sample code under unrestricted license. | Dec 06 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Now has Apple maintained a consistent Open Souce Policy the answer is no. | Dec 06 13:47 |
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| oiaohm | Basically marketing weasels at work at Apple again using Half truths. Half truth is yes you are telling the truth but you have omitted key facts that change the complete light of the matter. | Dec 06 13:49 |
| A_Friend | Suddenly a lot of comments pro-management are appearing at the | Dec 06 13:50 |
| A_Friend | IPKat. The media strstegy is working. | Dec 06 13:51 |
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| schestowitz | I saw that | Dec 06 14:07 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673502715620794368 | Dec 06 14:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz I used to be that guy in say 04/05. PowerBook and an iPod. Although then they were really good. Standard have dropped. | Dec 06 14:09 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502891232088064 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502957854420992 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673503022748704768 | Dec 06 14:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz this, is pure bullshit. a) microsoft's code in upstream openssh goes through the same reviews as anyone else. | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz the money means _nothing_ as far as code review goes | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz and, it wasn't anywhere near $1mil. | Dec 06 14:10 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds blobs | Dec 06 14:10 |
| schestowitz | I didn't say code reviews are affected | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | red herring | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673504868838035456 | Dec 06 14:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz blobs are not accepted in upstream openssh'd codebase. | Dec 06 14:11 | |
| schestowitz | Microsoft adds them | Dec 06 14:11 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/673505293167255552 | Dec 06 14:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I have to wonder if the are legal/contractual elements at play here, or if it is just all greed... | Dec 06 14:13 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: I have seen no openssh blobs from Microsoft. | Dec 06 14:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/62700d807d0e01339da8060714e07a3a | Dec 06 14:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 06 14:15 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: well it wouldn't be that obvious | Dec 06 14:16 |
| XFaCE | HERE IS THE COMMIT OF PROPRIETARY CRAP THAT MICROSOFT HAS ADDED | Dec 06 14:16 |
| XFaCE | no, more likely it would be code to facilitate proprietary blobs that Microsoft adds later in their bundled openssh | Dec 06 14:16 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH This is the Microsoft openssh code base. | Dec 06 14:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH · GitHub | Dec 06 14:19 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: and then you can run the following processes to compare the binary to the source code http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/02/detecting-source-code-re-use-through-binary-analysis-hybrid-approach | Dec 06 14:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.forensicmag.com | Detecting Source Code Re-Use through a Binary Analysis Hybrid Approach | Dec 06 14:20 | |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: have you done this yourself? | Dec 06 14:21 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: at this stage I have not seen anything out of place why if there is something out of place I want to here to I can work out how I missed it. | Dec 06 14:21 |
| XFaCE | ok, so you did this comparison program yourself? | Dec 06 14:22 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: I run a light level compare looking at basic flow and I know others who run deeper. Basically I have no reports of anything hidden and nothing I have done myself suggest anything hidden. | Dec 06 14:25 |
| XFaCE | thank you for answering the question | Dec 06 14:25 |
| oiaohm | If there is some report of Microsoft OpenSSL having some hidden extras I want to see it. | Dec 06 14:25 |
| oiaohm | There is a possiblity that someone missed the Microsoft Win32-OpenSSH on github. | Dec 06 14:26 |
| oiaohm | If you compare to upstream OpenSSH and Microsoft OpenSSH there are incompadiblities. | Dec 06 14:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673507534318133249 | Dec 06 14:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I always think of the Open University TM282 mathematical modeling cycle when I see that. @schestowitz https://t.co/nfbhNAj99b | Dec 06 14:27 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> msds.open.ac.uk | MST210 - Mathematical methods, models and modelling - Open University Course | Dec 06 14:27 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html openssh is clean code base for reproducible build. Unfortunately microsoft programs 1 ) don't come with complier information they were cleanly built with 2) Microsoft complier will optimise slightly differently each time it built. | Dec 06 14:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html ) | Dec 06 14:33 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: Yes detecting blobs in Microsoft built stuff is not a walk in park why you want to hear from anyone who does it. | Dec 06 14:33 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: "why you want to hear from anyone who does it." - I obviously do, hence why I'm asking you :P | Dec 06 16:00 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DGrantGibson/status/673533706393391105 | Dec 06 16:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DGrantGibson: Very revealing article on pesticides by top scientist. A must read. #90DayTidy https://t.co/fMXWzq3UaF | Dec 06 16:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: This Scientist Uncovered Problems With Pesticides. Then the Government Started to Make His Life Miserable. https://t.co/M6RdjPjF6p | Dec 06 16:16 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: problem is even for a person like me even if appears clean to me I could have missed something. The lack of reproducible build with MS Compliers make life hard. | Dec 06 16:24 |
| XFaCE | oiaohm: isn't this basically the consequence of the compiler paradox? | Dec 06 16:30 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: no its not. Debian project has proven with gcc its possible to produce reproducible builds. | Dec 06 16:33 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673536885747294209 | Dec 06 16:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @AltalexNews @byoblu @altalex_eu @Serv_Pubblico @reportrai3 @teuthorn @t_montinari @LaGabbiaTw @Montecitorio https://t.co/TtB7BnMzan | Dec 06 16:34 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents More Than 2,000 People,Including Directors, Said to Have Protested in Munich (About HALF of #EPO Staff) https://t.co/LEveBH9EPj | Dec 06 16:34 | |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: The catch is reproducible builds need very exact information about the complier used. Like exactly what patches are applied. | Dec 06 16:35 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: basically the compiler paradox argument turns not to hold water. | Dec 06 16:37 |
| oiaohm | XFaCE: of course a few things the coder in their source code can do to make binary not 100 percent identical each time. But once you know what they are you can build expection profile for it. | Dec 06 16:39 |
| schestowitz | MS adds blobs | Dec 06 17:19 |
| schestowitz | it's stated they won't use the standard ciphers | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | and theirs are secret | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | Also, we know they have back doors, they'd not even deny it | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | probably more like "no comment" | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I don't want to interact with an SSH node that runs on Windows | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I won't trust it | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | I wrote a whole article about key hosting | Dec 06 17:20 |
| schestowitz | like some sysadmins with Windows at work (not their choice) putting private keys on Windows | Dec 06 17:21 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/6735534407784038407 | Dec 06 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 06 17:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/673553440778403840 | Dec 06 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jrobertson: #reality2015 #fakery #surveillance #apps https://t.co/jFekdsIZHv | Dec 06 17:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: A lot of so-called 'apps' these days (usually a byword for malware) harvest everything on a device, broadcast to mother ship for bulk SALE! | Dec 06 17:24 | |
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| schestowitz | >>> Another week has passed. Any word from FSF or, more importantly, from | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> Red Hat? | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > yes, I was going to write about it today, | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > Excellent. | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | It's published now and it convinced me to move on and not persist with it... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | Dec 06 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | >> > but 2 hours just wasted | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > blocking effective DDOS attack from Baidu, so might not have time... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/82909 | Dec 06 17:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Baidu Stages De Facto DDOS Attacks (Updated) | Tux Machines | Dec 06 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > Ok. Sorry to hear that. At least the source is identified. I see when | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > pruning the spam false negatives [1] that the incoming requests are | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > still misidentified as the proxy. If you put one of those modules, rpaf | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > or mod_remoteip, it would be possible for Apache to block the offending | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | > hosts and not waste cycles serving them. | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | The DDOS issue isn't as bad now as it was last week. I also managed to reduce some Drupal related spam, but Drupal is less usable for me now (wasted hours in vain trying to fix it, eventually found a workaround). | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | I don't care much for web stats (waste of time better spent writing articles), so rpaf not a priority for this particular reason... | Dec 06 17:41 |
| schestowitz | PS - was thinking about going HTTPS recently... | Dec 06 17:41 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/tzoannop/status/673585987973488640 | Dec 06 19:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tzoannop: Είπαμε. Δημοκρατικότατη η Ευρώπη. https://t.co/sniKuRIrdR | Dec 06 19:47 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents Suppression of Voices Critical of the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/Hgjqs24dPX | Dec 06 19:47 | |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 01:38:08 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 07 01:38 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 07 01:38 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 07 01:38 | |
| cubexyz | changing the OS is as simple as swapping SD card | Dec 07 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Really there are graphic driver init on the Raspberry PI done by closed source and signed blob. | Dec 07 01:38 |
| oiaohm | That closed blob loads the u-boot bit. | Dec 07 01:38 |
| oiaohm | So implementing secureboot on Raspberry PI would be 1 update. | Dec 07 01:38 |
| cubexyz | PI is cheap enough to buy one to try | Dec 07 01:42 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 07 01:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Blue Pill (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 01:42 | |
| oiaohm | PI is still way under powered. | Dec 07 01:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: to get rid of secureboot requires putting something up to NIST and have them agree that your idea is a better solution than secureboot. | Dec 07 01:43 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: to deal with firmware/loader messing under OS. | Dec 07 01:44 |
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| cubexyz | oiaohm, why care about NIST? neither of us even live in the US | Dec 07 01:44 |
| cubexyz | PI is made in Wales from what I understand | Dec 07 01:45 |
| cubexyz | I doubt NIST cares what I think | Dec 07 01:45 |
| cubexyz | PI isn't even x86 | Dec 07 01:47 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I have a lot of old computers, so Blue Pill isn't a problem | Dec 07 01:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: secureboot is appearing in newer systems with virtualisation support. | Dec 07 01:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, remember we talked about BIOS_WP on ECS motherboard? | Dec 07 01:54 |
| oiaohm | http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-147/NIST-SP800-147-April2011.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-147b/draft-sp800-147b_july2012.pdf https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/files/resource_files/1FFEE497-1A4B-B294-D01FA27DFDDDEB06/UsingTPMtoAddressCybersecurity_Webinbar_May2014_Final.pdf | Dec 07 01:54 |
| cubexyz | so if I can find one... | Dec 07 01:54 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: those 3 PDF allow you to understand where nist sees us going. | Dec 07 01:55 |
| cubexyz | ok, thanks I will read them | Dec 07 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Its nist that is pushing verified boot ideas. | Dec 07 01:55 |
| cubexyz | the ODMs or whatever would still have to go along with it | Dec 07 01:56 |
| cubexyz | the jumper idea seemed a lot simpler | Dec 07 01:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if ODM want to sell to USA governement or USA government contractors or mil countries aligned with the USA who agree to the same standards have to go along with it. | Dec 07 01:58 |
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| oiaohm | cubexyz: so basically large block of market share to sell to is gone if you don't conform to nist standards. | Dec 07 01:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/673679090491244545 | Dec 07 01:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz this is what happens when a Microsoft mole destroys a primary industry https://t.co/kpFX9PpqG7 | Dec 07 01:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zerohedge.com | It Begins: Desperate Finland Set To Unleash Helicopter Money Drop To All Citizens | Zero Hedge | Dec 07 01:59 | |
| MinceR | 024251 < oiaohm> cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29 Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem. | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | still fails | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | the attacker could replace parts or whole of the system to boot the existing system image on a hypervisor | Dec 07 02:02 |
| MinceR | (parts or whole of the hardware) | Dec 07 02:02 |
| cubexyz | if you want a secure computer, just have one computer with NO wifi and NO internet | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | just another lame excuse to take freedom away from the user | Dec 07 02:03 |
| cubexyz | and 6 foot lead walls :) | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also prevent physical access | Dec 07 02:03 |
| MinceR | right | Dec 07 02:03 |
| cubexyz | and I do have a computer like that... Amiga 500 | Dec 07 02:04 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the presume is attacking does not have physical access. | Dec 07 02:04 |
| MinceR | then restricted boot is unnecessary | Dec 07 02:05 |
| oiaohm | remote malware was able to install items like bluepill. | Dec 07 02:05 |
| MinceR | then OS access controls were lacking | Dec 07 02:06 |
| MinceR | in fact, simply a read-only boot device would have prevented the issue | Dec 07 02:06 |
| cubexyz | Bluepill needs AMD-V though | Dec 07 02:06 |
| cubexyz | so older stuff is safe | Dec 07 02:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I said bluepill like. | Dec 07 02:06 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other older hidden malwares. | Dec 07 02:07 |
| cubexyz | maybe... the NSA have some smart people, but most attacks I see are dumb | Dec 07 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://ai222.narod.ru/discoloured.html anything based on this tech can do like bluepill attacks on i386 or newer. | Dec 07 02:09 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ai222.narod.ru | Discoloured Ring 0 Debugger | Dec 07 02:09 | |
| MinceR | they're also morally bankrupt | Dec 07 02:09 |
| cubexyz | I see Windows XP :) | Dec 07 02:10 |
| cubexyz | but worth a look | Dec 07 02:10 |
| cubexyz | a BIOS attack would be interesting | Dec 07 02:12 |
| cubexyz | just how do they attack the BIOS remotely? | Dec 07 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Its called doing too much crap. | Dec 07 02:12 |
| oiaohm | Some bios maker thought it was a good idea to add a check on internet for updates. | Dec 07 02:13 |
| MinceR | they could have added a hw switch to disable update via sw | Dec 07 02:13 |
| MinceR | far more secure than uefi without physical access | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | and uefi with physical access is worthless | Dec 07 02:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I agree with the hardware switch idea but I don't know how to get Nist to go along. | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | but i guess such things are just not "modern" enough | Dec 07 02:14 |
| cubexyz | DASH and Vpro no doubt | Dec 07 02:14 |
| cubexyz | that does go back to what I said about forced upgrades | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | well, make separate broken crap for the NIST if they want it so much and can afford to pay for it | Dec 07 02:14 |
| MinceR | no need to fuck up IT for everybody for their sake | Dec 07 02:15 |
| oiaohm | No NIST does not allow custom supply hardware in most cases. | Dec 07 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Due to the fact that custom suppied hardware could be targeted. | Dec 07 02:15 |
| cubexyz | so what do they use? | Dec 07 02:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically ODM have to make a choice. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | then they can use pen and paper | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | or better yet, rock and chisel | Dec 07 02:16 |
| cubexyz | I heard the Russians were using typewriters :) | Dec 07 02:16 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Nist standard has you using parts that you can buy through general channel that conform. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | i still don't get it why the industry has to be killed off for the sake of a single fascistic organization | Dec 07 02:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST rules control about 20 percent of the market. | Dec 07 02:16 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, durable but inconvenient! :) | Dec 07 02:16 |
| MinceR | (and the nsa should be defunded as well) | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | i guess the problem is solving itself | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | once humanity exterminates itself, NIST and NSA members will also be all dead | Dec 07 02:17 |
| cubexyz | do the russians make motherboards? | Dec 07 02:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: last time i checked 20% was still a minority. | Dec 07 02:17 |
| cubexyz | they clone a bunch of stuff in the PDP-11 era | Dec 07 02:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: depends where. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | has NIST or NSA revolutionarized mathematics too? | Dec 07 02:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: globally 20% of the market. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | still a minority. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but particular areas on earth its 100 percent. | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter, still a minority | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | 100-20=80, 80 > 20 | Dec 07 02:18 |
| MinceR | even more obviously true than uefi being broken crap. | Dec 07 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Now the next issue is what ever NIST standard normally accept other bodies like Chinas implement something equal. | Dec 07 02:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note MinceR NIST does not demard UEFI they just demard a verfied and secured boot. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | also note that hw switches are a lot less complex than uefi | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i don't care what they want, if they demand the general purpose computer to be killed, they can go fuck themselves. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| oiaohm | good thing NIST wants general purpose computer to remain. | Dec 07 02:20 |
| MinceR | doesn't look like it | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Just secure general purpose computer that they are sure what software is running on it. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | their "secure general purpose computer" is not secure and not general purpose | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST wants Linux and other OS to work. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | maybe they'll find a way to also make it not a computer | Dec 07 02:21 |
| oiaohm | NIST standard is why PK is replaceable. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | again, they could just go play with rocks. | Dec 07 02:21 |
| MinceR | they're doing an atrocious job at making other OS work | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | as in, they're doing an exact opposite | Dec 07 02:22 |
| oiaohm | The first idea of UEFI is the PK would 100 percent own to the ODM. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | if they're so incompetent, perhaps they should be defunded and shut down. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | here's the "big government" the republicans allegedly want to get rid of | Dec 07 02:22 |
| oiaohm | Without NIST we would not have the means to change the PK. | Dec 07 02:22 |
| MinceR | without UEFI we would not have the _need_ to change the PK | Dec 07 02:23 |
| oiaohm | NIST first design secureboot signing for old school bios. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | s/an ex/the ex/ | Dec 07 02:23 |
| oiaohm | So yes a old school bios can have a PK. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter what incompetent people design for | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | if they're incapable of coming up with a good design, the designs they come up with will suck. | Dec 07 02:23 |
| MinceR | and forcing such designs on the industry will kill the industry | Dec 07 02:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have not said once that the designs don't suck. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| MinceR | and once they kill the IT industry, it will take the rest of industry, tech, science and human society down with it. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| oiaohm | But like it or not we there are mandoary requirements that will have to be meet. | Dec 07 02:24 |
| MinceR | mandatory requirements that kill the general purpose computer, got it | Dec 07 02:25 |
| MinceR | it's exactly what i am against | Dec 07 02:25 |
| oiaohm | PK only in the hands of ODM would have killed the general purpose computer absolutely. | Dec 07 02:25 |
| MinceR | "only in the hands of ODM" really means "in the hands of microsoft" | Dec 07 02:26 |
| oiaohm | No it does not. | Dec 07 02:26 |
| MinceR | since they have leverage over all the ODMs, except for the ones manufacturing for crApple, which are in the same shitty situation | Dec 07 02:26 |
| MinceR | and remember, they call this a "free market" | Dec 07 02:26 |
| oiaohm | There are arm items running custom OS using PK solutions. | Dec 07 02:26 |
| cubexyz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Your_Own_Z80_Computer | Dec 07 02:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Build Your Own Z80 Computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 02:26 | |
| MinceR | yeah, as long as emperor nutella allows them to | Dec 07 02:27 |
| MinceR | sitting on the kill switch | Dec 07 02:27 |
| MinceR | or probably more likely gates | Dec 07 02:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist is also why keyless is possible. | Dec 07 02:27 |
| cubexyz | there's no kill switch :) | Dec 07 02:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically NIST has blocked 100 percent sure killing of general computing. | Dec 07 02:28 |
| MinceR | yay, slow and drawn-out death! | Dec 07 02:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think about it how can you proccess large volume of spy data without general computer. | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they are the ones who should think about that | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | in general, they should start thinking | Dec 07 02:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly. | Dec 07 02:29 |
| MinceR | as they haven't done much of it so far | Dec 07 02:29 |
| cubexyz | so the NSA will get general purpose computers and we'll get consumertron 2000s | Dec 07 02:30 |
| oiaohm | Problem is they are attempting to walk a line between secure and general computers | Dec 07 02:30 |
| MinceR | which would enable them to rule the world | Dec 07 02:30 |
| oiaohm | Like NIST made the push to move the TPM off motherboard to a socketed item. | Dec 07 02:30 |
| MinceR | no, they don't seem to have any idea of what "secure" means | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | apparently they've learned "security" from microsoft | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is wrong. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | where it means DRM and backdoors with government and m$ access | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | NIST normally publishes before Microsoft. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | and lack of user/owner control | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft follows NIST | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | In most cases. | Dec 07 02:31 |
| MinceR | i don't really care what the figures in the shell game are called | Dec 07 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Like secureboot was written before UEFI had it first line of code written. | Dec 07 02:32 |
| oiaohm | secureboot by nist | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | the point is, either they will survive, or we will live free | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | there's no other way | Dec 07 02:32 |
| MinceR | or everybody dies, which is even more likely | Dec 07 02:32 |
| oiaohm | To be correct lack of user/owner control NIST does not agree with MinceR | Dec 07 02:33 |
| oiaohm | Ok NIST does not have a issue with it being a total pain in ass to operate. | Dec 07 02:33 |
| MinceR | then they should get their uefi | Dec 07 02:33 |
| MinceR | and the rest of us should get sane, reliable, secure systems instead | Dec 07 02:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: secure is the problem. | Dec 07 02:35 |
| oiaohm | How to achive secure without being a pain in ass. | Dec 07 02:35 |
| MinceR | and once they get tired of using the broken crap they plotted to force on everybody, they can give the latter a try | Dec 07 02:35 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, they're trying to achieve the illusion of a kind of security they can not have | Dec 07 02:36 |
| MinceR | and they're willing to give everything up for that illusion | Dec 07 02:36 |
| MinceR | including actual, existing security | Dec 07 02:36 |
| oiaohm | All security is part illusion. | Dec 07 02:37 |
| MinceR | how are illusions supposed to keep you safe? | Dec 07 02:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its like a locked door. Its only an illusion really that a person cannot get past it. | Dec 07 02:38 |
| oiaohm | Most safety depened on the illusion of safety that the illusion is strong enough that most will not attempt to attack it. | Dec 07 02:39 |
| MinceR | or you could put a guard next to that locked door | Dec 07 02:39 |
| oiaohm | Even a guard is still a form of illusion. If some is determed enough a guard or guards normally is not a blockage. | Dec 07 02:40 |
| MinceR | depends on the ratio of power between guards and attacker | Dec 07 02:41 |
| MinceR | and a locked door can be strengthened as well | Dec 07 02:41 |
| MinceR | but if you're dreaming to stay secure while assuming that the attacker has already passed the door, that's pointless | Dec 07 02:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No matter what you do attacker can always be stronger right. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | Or sneaker. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | restricted does not help with that one bit | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | s/ted/ted boot/ | Dec 07 02:42 |
| MinceR | it merely screws things up for user/owners | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | It does help a little. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | As it makes replacement more detectable. | Dec 07 02:42 |
| oiaohm | So providing extra complexity to attackers to get past. | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | and harms a lot | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | makes it hard for users to use a secure OS | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | bricks computers | Dec 07 02:43 |
| MinceR | the winblows and OSuX they're trying everything to force on us are full of holes | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | To be correct UEFI design that NIST agrees with does not brick computers. | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | and will stay full of holes even if you place their illusion beside them | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | the UEFI some ODM have made does. | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | in the end, users are screwed _and_ have less security | Dec 07 02:44 |
| MinceR | good job, NIST! | Dec 07 02:44 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly less security. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | Not doing any validation on boot was 100 percent inscure. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | So security has improved a little. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | doing any validation on boot is still 100 percent insecure | Dec 07 02:45 |
| oiaohm | Pain in ass factor increased a lot. | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | it only helps companies who conspire to break security | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | m$, crApple, intel, ratcrap | Dec 07 02:45 |
| MinceR | (though ratcrap will get screwed by it anyway) | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | crApple tittle when it comes to UEFI is deserved. | Dec 07 02:46 |
| MinceR | (they're just too moronic to see it) | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | Apple has made more broken UEFI implemtnations than any other vendor. | Dec 07 02:46 |
| MinceR | yay for them | Dec 07 02:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/apple_efi.html Apple used ELF instead of PE as well just customed to hell version of ELF on top. | Dec 07 02:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-refit.sourceforge.net | rEFIt - History of Apple and EFI | Dec 07 02:48 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE being a microsoft format sound bad. But at least it not Apple creating a completley new form of ELF for their UEFI. | Dec 07 02:49 |
| MinceR | yeah, m$ and crApple are both very good at fucking things up | Dec 07 02:50 |
| oiaohm | PE selection in UEFI was sane ish take existing linkers and just use those no custom modification crap. | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | not really | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | it's validating m$'s position and buying into their broken shit | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | instead of industry standards like EFI | Dec 07 02:51 |
| oiaohm | EFI used PE | Dec 07 02:51 |
| MinceR | oops | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | ELF | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | (which was agreed upon by unix vendors, afaik) | Dec 07 02:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF not quite as good as it first seams. | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | (not that they can only support one format, especially with the code size they've allowed for themselves) | Dec 07 02:52 |
| oiaohm | ELF has a lot more arch type description crap. | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | yeah, poor little winblows can't handle it | Dec 07 02:52 |
| MinceR | and everybody must go out of their way to support poor little winblows | Dec 07 02:53 |
| oiaohm | No not poor windows. | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | since they're in such a bad position | Dec 07 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Poor EFI with all the ELF arch stuff could become a pain in ass. | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | EFI _is_ a pain in the ass | Dec 07 02:53 |
| cubexyz | ELF appeared in SysV SVR4 | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | U or not U | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | it's also a gigantic pile of bloat | Dec 07 02:53 |
| MinceR | for the simple task of loading and executing a boot loader | Dec 07 02:54 |
| cubexyz | ok, well there's always PDP-11 a.out :) | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | i know big piles of crap can look impressive, but they also have the potential for lots of bugs | Dec 07 02:54 |
| oiaohm | Remember PE is extend COFF that predates ELF. | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | and in that place, bugs will brick your "computer" | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | then they could use unextended COFF | Dec 07 02:54 |
| MinceR | another standard | Dec 07 02:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| oiaohm | These days. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | they only support m$ formats and expect people to think they're impartial? that's absurd. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: they could develop them. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | they could write tons of code which they wanted to do anyway | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | except that would not bloat the firmware | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | it could exist nicely in userspace. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| MinceR | on top of a real OS. | Dec 07 02:55 |
| cubexyz | lots of hobbyists still use old Unix | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | hobbyists are ignored by the brainless suits who call the shots | Dec 07 02:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: even in old unix there are coff veration. | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | they take the hobbyists' code and then use it against the hobbyists | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | oh, and PE is without variations? | Dec 07 02:56 |
| MinceR | so the various stubs are just in my imagination? | Dec 07 02:57 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, recompile seems an easy solution | Dec 07 02:57 |
| MinceR | the one that prints it won't run in m$-dos, the one that loads it with .net (for no good reason) | Dec 07 02:57 |
| MinceR | the one they put on font files (which apparently need to be executable for some reason) | Dec 07 02:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 07 02:57 |
| cubexyz | I can run v6 on PDP-11 or Interdata, probably others too | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | ooh, "standard" | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | from m$ | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | will you also advocate OOXML too? | Dec 07 02:58 |
| cubexyz | so C language, recompile | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | it's a m$ "standard" | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | never mind that m$'s own implementations ignore their alleged standards | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | or that if you dropped its printout on someone, it can very well kill them | Dec 07 02:58 |
| MinceR | 035800 < oiaohm> MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard. Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub. | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | so those are not variations either? | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | i have an idea | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | put a PE stub in front of ELF and call it "standard" | Dec 07 02:59 |
| cubexyz | v5 -> PDP-11, v6 -> interdata 7/32 & PDP-11, v8 -> vax780, etc | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | and once you have code supporting that, remove the need for the stub | Dec 07 02:59 |
| MinceR | magic! | Dec 07 03:00 |
| cubexyz | pick your era | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | also, i'm sure EFI will handle _all_ variations of PE | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | there must be support for that in the mountains of bullshit that make up TianoCore | Dec 07 03:00 |
| MinceR | hell, they could just copy-paste winblows into TianoCore and end the whole charade | Dec 07 03:00 |
| cubexyz | my advice is to learn history... computer history | Dec 07 03:01 |
| MinceR | soon you'll be able to learn _all_ of computer history, because they will end computers | Dec 07 03:01 |
| MinceR | i wonder whose software will the parasitic luddites at NIST use when they take the computers away from the people whose people they keep ripping off | Dec 07 03:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to be correct EFI does not take all veriation of PE. Like .net stuff is out. EFI takes native executable forms of PE. | Dec 07 03:02 |
| MinceR | 035507 < oiaohm> MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable. | Dec 07 03:05 |
| MinceR | gcc? | Dec 07 03:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gcc supports 400 COFF formats. | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | should be more than enough for the idiots at NIST, then | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | except of course they want to use visual studio because they're idiots | Dec 07 03:06 |
| oiaohm | PE/COFF is formally a coff format. | Dec 07 03:06 |
| MinceR | i'm sure there are non-m$ formats in there | Dec 07 03:07 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are non MS formats in COFF but the problem is how much of a nightmare it comes. Like Linux coff a.out is differnet to solaris..... | Dec 07 03:07 |
| MinceR | i thought a.out was not COFF | Dec 07 03:08 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.out | Dec 07 03:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | a.out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 03:08 | |
| oiaohm | Linux early on used COFF format. | Dec 07 03:08 |
| cubexyz | Linux used a.out until kernel 1.2 | Dec 07 03:09 |
| cubexyz | I think up to v7 a.out was used | Dec 07 03:10 |
| cubexyz | Unix v7 that is | Dec 07 03:10 |
| cubexyz | so probably by v8 then it was COFF | Dec 07 03:11 |
| cubexyz | you have to go pretty far back to go back to a.out | Dec 07 03:12 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COFF as you can see here the COFF standard is super vague. | Dec 07 03:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | COFF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 07 03:12 | |
| oiaohm | Numbers of sections is not define. | Dec 07 03:12 |
| oiaohm | Lot of layout bits are not defined in COFF. | Dec 07 03:13 |
| oiaohm | Lets say COFF is wild wild west of binary format. | Dec 07 03:13 |
| MinceR | what are microsoft "standard"s, then? | Dec 07 03:13 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, what about Amiga? | Dec 07 03:13 |
| MinceR | (remember, their own implementations tend to violate the spec) | Dec 07 03:13 |
| cubexyz | it was called Hunk I think | Dec 07 03:14 |
| cubexyz | so we never had executable interoperability | Dec 07 03:14 |
| cubexyz | just source code porting... | Dec 07 03:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: that is the funny thing about PE. http://www.skyfree.org/linux/references/coff.pdf This is 1999 from Microsoft for PE but it exactly correct for all binary PE format back to the start to all the way up to current day. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even the extend for .net was done inside the PE spec. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Fairlly much the PE format is the only time Microsoft has written a spec and stuck to it. | Dec 07 03:15 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure RT-11 executeable format would be different again | Dec 07 03:15 |
| MinceR | i have my doubts | Dec 07 03:15 |
| cubexyz | zaurus executable won't work on P3, etc | Dec 07 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Wine project loads all kinds of PE programs from accross the complete time frame. | Dec 07 03:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you might have you doubts but this is something that is just been tested over and over again. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| MinceR | wine project took a lot of work to support the craziness in winblows | Dec 07 03:17 |
| MinceR | and afaik it's still far from perfect | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | wine project has to follow down a lot of undocument apis true. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | but its never had a issue loading PE itself. | Dec 07 03:17 |
| oiaohm | PE format is nice and stable the reset of the Windows ABI will make you want to pull you hair out. | Dec 07 03:18 |
| oiaohm | reset/rest | Dec 07 03:18 |
| oiaohm | If you were after something COFF unforntatly PE/COFF is about your best choice. | Dec 07 03:18 |
| MinceR | an allegedly independent system that is allegedly supposed to boot other OS-es living entirely within microsoftland and not even trying to disguise that fact much is what makes me pull my hair out | Dec 07 03:18 |
| MinceR | along with the fact that it's a bloated, broken mess and i don't get much of a choice whether i get it if i buy a computer | Dec 07 03:19 |
| oiaohm | Please note BEOS and other OS have used PE/COFF as well. | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | where's BeOS now? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | what happened to them? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | which company did they preach "peaceful coexistence" with? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| oiaohm | BeOS is cloned in Open source. | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | why do people _never_ _ever_ learn from their own past mistakes? | Dec 07 03:19 |
| cubexyz | there's HaikuOS | Dec 07 03:19 |
| MinceR | Haiku is not BeOS | Dec 07 03:20 |
| cubexyz | it's not bad actually | Dec 07 03:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Haiku contains some of the developers from BeOS. | Dec 07 03:20 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 03:20 |
| oiaohm | OS projects take a long time to die. | Dec 07 03:20 |
| MinceR | i wonder what they'll say when restricted boot locks out Haiku | Dec 07 03:20 |
| cubexyz | "here we go again" ? | Dec 07 03:21 |
| MinceR | :> | Dec 07 03:21 |
| MinceR | humanity needs to develop a strong AI, so that there will be an intelligence that can learn and improve | Dec 07 03:22 |
| MinceR | because humans sure as hell can't | Dec 07 03:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI%202_5.pdf If you read page 67 pdf pages or 18 by document page number you will notice PE used by EFI is not without being modified. | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | so they didn't even use the "standard" they picked | Dec 07 03:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it coded named PE+ yes you are meant to strip the dos header off. | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | which compiler will generate their custom "PE"? | Dec 07 03:26 |
| MinceR | the more i see of uefi the more it looks like a carnival of total failure | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Turns out gcc,llvm and msvc MinceR | Dec 07 03:27 |
| MinceR | it's a monument that demonstrates the opposite of engineering | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | The modifications they did were allowed under PE define MinceR | Dec 07 03:27 |
| MinceR | the culmination of the crApple/micro$oft dream | Dec 07 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Of course PE+ requires all the existing compliers at the time to use some extra header files. | Dec 07 03:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: PE was simple to modifiy would having to reinvent the wheel. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | the usual game | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | would/without. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | They did look at ELF | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | and said "nah, Not Invented Here" | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | or "our lord bill gates would disapprove" | Dec 07 03:29 |
| oiaohm | No early prototype EFI tried both. | Dec 07 03:29 |
| MinceR | and maybe made up some bullshit excuse, which is made ludicrous by their later decisions, as usual | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | Yes they ran into binary build issues with ELF. | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | Not from Microsoft. | Dec 07 03:30 |
| oiaohm | From solaris and OS X | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | maybe they should have tried hiring some software engineers | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | ratcrap should have tried that too | Dec 07 03:30 |
| MinceR | then again, their goal was not to build stuff that works | Dec 07 03:31 |
| MinceR | but to break stuff that used to work | Dec 07 03:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: have you ever used a bios with verfifed boot over the time. | Dec 07 03:31 |
| MinceR | i don't think i have | Dec 07 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Also the existance of coreboot shows thing were not working right. | Dec 07 03:32 |
| oiaohm | bios mapping usb keyboards to PS2 interfaces and other horibles in background would cause random distruptions. | Dec 07 03:32 |
| MinceR | my newest x86 PC still supports "Legacy Boot" | Dec 07 03:32 |
| MinceR | sure, the mountain of bloat is still there, but at least it tries to pretend it's a computer | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | but that will eventually go away | Dec 07 03:33 |
| oiaohm | EFI start off as an attempt to remove all the emulation stuff between the OS and the hardware in the SMM | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | which they did not do | Dec 07 03:33 |
| MinceR | SMM is still supported | Dec 07 03:33 |
| oiaohm | SMM usage is way lower in a UEFI boot to OS than a BIOS boot to OS. | Dec 07 03:34 |
| oiaohm | But yes they did not meet their complete objective. | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | the usual [u]efi game: 1. proclaim that doing A is very important; 2. sacrifice everything sane in the name of A; 3. fail to do A | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | and they expect to be praised for this | Dec 07 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its a 90+ percent reduction of stuff in SMM | Dec 07 03:34 |
| MinceR | i don't care | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | it's a 100 percent reduction of the stuff general purpose computers exist for | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | they don't just throw the baby out with the bathwater | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | they throw the baby into a furnace while carefully preserving the bathwater | Dec 07 03:35 |
| MinceR | and then they demand compliments for getting rid of the bathwater and keeping the baby | Dec 07 03:36 |
| oiaohm | SMM code from BIOS has been resposnable for random Windows/Linux/BSD/Solaris... crashs due to locking hardware under OS. | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | and then you say "but they did end up with a few drops of bathwater less!" | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | yes, and it's still there! | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | but now you also get bricked before the OS gets to load | Dec 07 03:36 |
| MinceR | is that progress? | Dec 07 03:36 |
| oiaohm | To be correct some UEFI systems in fact have nothing in SMM mode when OS is running. | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | i wish i could "work" with the standards set for these people | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | i would get paid lavishly while doing nothing | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | and doing nothing would still be better than what these people ever achieved | Dec 07 03:37 |
| oiaohm | Why UEFI has some is some hardware depends on software power management instead of having a power management microcontrol. | Dec 07 03:37 |
| MinceR | ooh, we have a "UEFI system" in the lab that runs nothing in SMM mode! | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | that's great, and i have a computer that runs what i want it to run | Dec 07 03:38 |
| oiaohm | There are some boards in the wild. | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | you know what else runs nothing in SMM mode? a rock! | Dec 07 03:38 |
| oiaohm | SMM mode is levels of nightmare. | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | which is incidentally a lot more useful than what these idiots at m$, intel and crApple are hacking up | Dec 07 03:38 |
| MinceR | yes, so is uefi. | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | and so is windows, and so is macos. | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | maybe it would be more productive to design a new architecture from scratch without the stuff we want to get rid of | Dec 07 03:39 |
| MinceR | instead of this pointless wankery | Dec 07 03:40 |
| MinceR | i bet it could be done with less work than it took to shit out TianoCore | Dec 07 03:41 |
| oiaohm | Unforantly I have to agree x86 platforms are insanely complex to start up. | Dec 07 03:41 |
| MinceR | good thing these ingenious people are working to fix that, right? | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | The big thing about UEFI documentation is that it starts showing people what people making BIOS for motherboard were doing in secert. | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | so far they've managed to make them even more insanely complex to start up | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | and less reliable | Dec 07 03:42 |
| MinceR | progress! | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | The start up process was insanely complex MinceR | Dec 07 03:42 |
| oiaohm | Just you had no documentation about it. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | what does it say about these people that their work accomplished less than actually doing nothing would have? | Dec 07 03:43 |
| oiaohm | Read coreboot documentation on starting up. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| oiaohm | You will find it about as complex as UEFI. | Dec 07 03:43 |
| cubexyz | it is complex | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | try checking the _code_ | Dec 07 03:43 |
| MinceR | they don't have to do it in secret anymore because they'll have the government ban general purpose computers from the use of us slaves? | Dec 07 03:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot and UEFI if you look at code are about equally complex. | Dec 07 03:44 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 07 03:44 |
| oiaohm | Reality starting an x86 system is a pure pain in ass. | Dec 07 03:44 |
| MinceR | why make it more painful? | Dec 07 03:44 |
| cubexyz | there's the old ISA/PCI stuff as well | Dec 07 03:45 |
| MinceR | is more pain better than less pain? | Dec 07 03:45 |
| oiaohm | Shockily UEFI is less painful than old bios. Coreboot is also modular with items like services. | Dec 07 03:45 |
| MinceR | having to jump through hoops to boot a secure OS is "less painful" than not having to do so? | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | is this some sort of bizarro world? | Dec 07 03:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically the only way to make starting an x86 less painful would be redesign the complete thing. | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | COMPLEXITY IS SIMPLICITY | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | WAR IS PEACE | Dec 07 03:46 |
| oiaohm | Even in bios you have to run checksums on parts. | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | FREEDOM IS SLAVERY | Dec 07 03:46 |
| cubexyz | go raspberry pi then | Dec 07 03:46 |
| MinceR | IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH | Dec 07 03:47 |
| cubexyz | at least it's not x86 | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | for some of my workload, i already have | Dec 07 03:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: signing checking was going on in old school bioses behind you back. | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | but some of it probably won't work on pi | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and yet old school bioses would boot any os i want to | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | without asking | Dec 07 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Most of the UEFI does is put what was going on in background front and centre. | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | without putting a ticking time bomb in the process | Dec 07 03:47 |
| MinceR | great | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | when will they fix it? | Dec 07 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Old bios had lot of ticking time bombs. | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | also, when will they take out the unnecessary shit that broke it even more? | Dec 07 03:48 |
| MinceR | also, on what basis should i have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to fix things? | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | The secure boot signing pushed through to OS is just extending what was going on. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | so far, they've made things more broken and proudly proclaimed "HERP DERP FIXED NOW!" | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Do you remember BIOS that refused to boot if your MBR had changed. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | yes, extending it in a way that fucks up computers for the people who buy them | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | no, i don't | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: they exist. | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | i happily changed MBRs and kept on booting | Dec 07 03:49 |
| MinceR | yes, uefi appliances exist too | Dec 07 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Most bioses had the switch turned off but some came with it on. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| cubexyz | there was an MBR protection thing I think | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | and the way things are going, soon there won't be any x86 PCs made that do what their alleged owner tells them to | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes MBR protection. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| cubexyz | boot sector watchdog | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep another name for the same thing. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| oiaohm | So firmware checking your loader is not exactly new. | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | yes, they're good at coming up with nice-sounding names for misfeatures | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | they even call DRM "security" | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | even though it's the opposite, if anything | Dec 07 03:50 |
| MinceR | can we not focus instead on what things _are_? | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | I had the horible case of a motherboard that would only accept a Microsoft MBR. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| cubexyz | which motherboard was that? | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | and Microsoft boot sector. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| cubexyz | which BIOS was that? :) | Dec 07 03:51 |
| MinceR | i'm not terribly interested on what the Party wishes i believed | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: some rebranded foxcomm made board cheap. | Dec 07 03:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: AMI BIOS | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | cheap | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | so even they knew it was crap | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | back then | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | now it's "securiteh" | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | I like Tyan, MSI, and maybe ECS | Dec 07 03:52 |
| oiaohm | The reality was there was no option to get around it. | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | still have to try ECS though | Dec 07 03:52 |
| oiaohm | At least UEFI does define options. | Dec 07 03:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you would probably have to rewrite the BIOS to fix it | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 07 03:52 |
| MinceR | option 1: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what m$ tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 07 03:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: vendor not providing updates and board not supported by anyone else. It taught me what the worst case was. I scraped the board. | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | option 2: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what crApple tells it to do, while ignoring your wishes | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | option 3: have no computers or things that pretend they're computers | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | and that's it | Dec 07 03:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you probably would have had to give AMI major $$$ to fix that | Dec 07 03:53 |
| MinceR | thanks, uefi! | Dec 07 03:53 |
| cubexyz | not worth it | Dec 07 03:53 |
| oiaohm | From my point of view UEFI is at least workable. Pain in Ass but workable. | Dec 07 03:54 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I don't think I own an UEFI computer :) | Dec 07 03:54 |
| MinceR | i don't see why you want pain in the ass | Dec 07 03:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the UEFI ones I have do have replaced PK and KEKs. | Dec 07 03:54 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, I don't ... for sure I don't | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | i also don't see why you believe they'll stop _just_ short of making it impossible to run something not broken on the alleged computer | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | after putting all the infrastructure in place to force the alleged computer to be just another bot in m$'s (or crApple's) botnet | Dec 07 03:55 |
| MinceR | it's a lot like cancerd, btw | Dec 07 03:56 |
| MinceR | something complex and broken is forced on you without giving you a choice, and they claim it's simple and better | Dec 07 03:56 |
| cubexyz | you can put coreboot on quite a few Gigabyte motherboards | Dec 07 03:57 |
| MinceR | btw, 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manual | Dec 07 03:57 |
| oiaohm | There is still on going debate if bootloader should be able to ship with KEK to add to boot system after user approval. | Dec 07 03:59 |
| oiaohm | UEFI still could improve to less painful. | Dec 07 04:00 |
| MinceR | that's the wrong thing to debate | Dec 07 04:00 |
| MinceR | yes, setting the whole thing on fire and having the people responsible do menial work instead would improve it to less painful | Dec 07 04:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: with BIOS we had random crash pain due to what it was doing in secret. UEFI we have secure boot pain. So we swapped on pain for another. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | replacing governments with ones that actually enforce antitrust law would also be an improvement | Dec 07 04:02 |
| oiaohm | Mind you UEFI has improved from starting location. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: thanks, but i'm not interested in trying out various instruments of torture on myself. | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | that only means the starting location was allegedly even worse | Dec 07 04:02 |
| MinceR | as long as it's worse than bios, i'm not interested in it | Dec 07 04:03 |
| MinceR | i'm not interested in replacing things with worse things | Dec 07 04:03 |
| MinceR | this is also why i'm not an ideal m$ customer | Dec 07 04:03 |
| oiaohm | http://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html This is what it was like in 2012 | Dec 07 04:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rodsbooks.com | Managing EFI Boot Loaders for Linux: Dealing with Secure Boot | Dec 07 04:04 | |
| oiaohm | Notice no means to clear the PK or set your own KEK. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| oiaohm | So now you had to use a shim loader that you had to have signed by Microsoft. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | no, in 2012 you could easily buy an x86 PC that could at least do "Legacy Boot" | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | that's going away | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | and that's not an improvement. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| MinceR | it's the opposite of an improvement. | Dec 07 04:04 |
| oiaohm | Even in 2012 there was EFI boards without legacy boot. | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | yes, and even in 2012 there was human excrement | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | yet i did not attempt to use that to do my computing | Dec 07 04:05 |
| MinceR | i used a general purpose computer. | Dec 07 04:05 |
| oiaohm | Please note legacy boot on old EFI. EFI has still run it just loads some like SEABIOS as the loader. | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | which is bad | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | but still not as bad as forced restricted boot | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | or restricted boot on by default with the switch cleverly hidden | Dec 07 04:06 |
| oiaohm | The idea is to push legacy bios to the EFI partition. | Dec 07 04:06 |
| MinceR | they're so clever when it comes to fucking customers over | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | To make it simpler to update. | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | why are they never clever in a constructive way? | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | finally a hdd malfunction can brick the pc | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | just the thing i wanted! | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | No you still have EFI to fall back on. | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | yay | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | i have something unworkable to fall back on | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | so my brick can also function as a brick | Dec 07 04:07 |
| MinceR | how handy! | Dec 07 04:07 |
| oiaohm | Most annoying thing about some EFI implemtnations is boot from internal harddrive only. | Dec 07 04:08 |
| oiaohm | No USB drivers in firmware. | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | yay, progress | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | it must take lots of ingenuity and hard work to fuck up things that used to work | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | considering the worship intel, m$ and redcrap receive for doing exactly that | Dec 07 04:09 |
| MinceR | you'd think any retard with a sledgehammer could do it | Dec 07 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Rasbery pi will not boot from USB out box either. | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | at least it will still boot from microsd, which is removable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | easily removable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | and replaceable | Dec 07 04:10 |
| oiaohm | sata harddrive is removable. | Dec 07 04:10 |
| MinceR | you might lose your warranty for removing it | Dec 07 04:11 |
| MinceR | if it's a laptop, you might have to remove pretty much everything else before you can remove it | Dec 07 04:11 |
| MinceR | but who cares, when the first priority is fucking over the users | Dec 07 04:11 |
| oiaohm | NIST laptop requirements have harddrive in individual removable compartment. | Dec 07 04:12 |
| oiaohm | For data protection reasons. | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | good for them | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | somehow that particular requirement they're not as keen on enforcing as restricted boot | Dec 07 04:12 |
| MinceR | i wonder why | Dec 07 04:13 |
| oiaohm | To be correct they are keen on enforcing that. | Dec 07 04:13 |
| MinceR | am i hallucinating all these laptops that don't have it, then? | Dec 07 04:13 |
| MinceR | http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-06 | Dec 07 04:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-06 | Dilbert by Scott Adams | Dec 07 04:14 | |
| oiaohm | 60 percent of laptop made have indivudal compartments for harddrive | Dec 07 04:14 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 07 04:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist alone does not get you to 100 percent. | Dec 07 04:15 |
| MinceR | it doesn't get me anywhere, except into hell | Dec 07 04:15 |
| MinceR | where do you want to go today? never mind, you're not getting there, ever! | Dec 07 04:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its taking what vendors have market share then looking at construction. HP, Toshibias.... Most of the big boys most models of laptops obey NIST. Exception in a big way is Apple who does what every they like. | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | yet crApple jumped on [u]efi before most others | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | so NIST gets their way when it's hugely destructive | Dec 07 04:17 |
| MinceR | and not if it's (probably by mistake) constructive | Dec 07 04:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Apple laptop try to remove harddrive. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | and still, mandating a separate HDD compartment is no excuse for breaking booting from removable devices | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: smash on rock, sort fragments. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | bonus: it still retains all of its original functionality, since it's crApple | Dec 07 04:18 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not say break booting from removable harddrive they just have not given a solid ruling on that. | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | and if you're lucky, the battery will blow the whole thing apart for you | Dec 07 04:18 |
| MinceR | ooh, that's so nice of them | Dec 07 04:19 |
| oiaohm | I am hoping NIST rules that booting from removable drives has to work. | Dec 07 04:19 |
| MinceR | maybe they should find a career they can perform adequately | Dec 07 04:19 |
| MinceR | for example, they could try cleaning toilets | Dec 07 04:19 |
| oiaohm | That is fairly much what NIST does from a security point of view. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| oiaohm | The attempt to clean up after disaster to prevent them happening again write rules. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | i'm hoping that when they manage to get humanity to exterminate itself, it goes extra painful for them. | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | actually, as shown above, they have no clue about security | Dec 07 04:20 |
| MinceR | (no, locking people into winblows is not security) | Dec 07 04:20 |
| oiaohm | NIST was the one that allowed us to load our own KEK into secureboot so we don't have to run Windows. | Dec 07 04:21 |
| MinceR | NIST was the one that (according to you) forced restricted boot on us in the first place | Dec 07 04:21 |
| MinceR | without restricted boot, it was easy to not run winblows | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | so they didn't do shit about that, they just made it more difficult | Dec 07 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Yes but they did not think that anyone one be mad enough to make there design on a general PC restricted to 1 OS. | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | "they did not think" | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | that's the point | Dec 07 04:22 |
| oiaohm | Lets just say NIST really lacks in the future looking department and is reactive. | Dec 07 04:22 |
| MinceR | people who do not think should not be given such power. | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | yes, they lack in the department that, among other things, looks into the future | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | we call that department the "brain" | Dec 07 04:23 |
| oiaohm | I do agree that NIST need to have a little more forward planing skills | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | humanity has managed to put destructive, psychotic, parasitic idiots in charge of the IT industry. | Dec 07 04:23 |
| MinceR | no, they need to be eliminated. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST is not attempt to be our enemy. But their level of incompetence is dangerous. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | exactly | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | such incompetence can not be fixed by adding a few skills | Dec 07 04:24 |
| oiaohm | NIST gives too much faith that ODM will do the right things. | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | then they're utterly idiotic | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | ODMs have never done the right things | Dec 07 04:24 |
| MinceR | especially not under m$/crApple control | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Nothing NIST recommends is without reason. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | So there is some thinking. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | Just is backwards looking thinking. | Dec 07 04:25 |
| MinceR | so, a PRNG does "thinking" too? | Dec 07 04:25 |
| oiaohm | The hard part thinking NIST is recommending things based on historic events means if we ingore them we are doomed to repeat those historic events. | Dec 07 04:26 |
| oiaohm | Security is never simple | Dec 07 04:27 |
| MinceR | then perhaps we should stop putting simpletons in charge. | Dec 07 04:27 |
| oiaohm | There is a old saying. You can have userablity or secuirty but not both. | Dec 07 04:27 |
| MinceR | and with NIST, you will have neither! | Dec 07 04:28 |
| oiaohm | NIST puts down the recommendations. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | they should not put them down | Dec 07 04:28 |
| oiaohm | Then intel and others are meant to implement those recommendation. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | they should put them up. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | where the sun doesn't shine. | Dec 07 04:28 |
| MinceR | recommendations that lead to uefi with restricted boot are utter garbage | Dec 07 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Issue we have is those implemting NIST recommendations are not exactly doing the best job. | Dec 07 04:29 |
| MinceR | that's putting it lightly | Dec 07 04:29 |
| oiaohm | We cannot ingnore the need to protect firmware and bootloader and OS due to attacks that have happened. | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | they have done exactly none of those things | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | they have apparently taken part in such attacks, however | Dec 07 04:30 |
| MinceR | and so have the NSA. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | against the interests of the people they parasitize. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: implementers or NIST you will find a lot of your problem is with Implementors and its NIST who have forced implementers to come a little saner. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | it's not even "a little saner" | Dec 07 04:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: think first EFI no control of PK and no control of KEK so you could be truly locked out. | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | stop comparing current uefi to early efi and start comparing it to bios | Dec 07 04:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: bricking the computer can also lock you out | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: or my case with the must be MS MBR and Boot loader. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | That was bios. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| oiaohm | ODM were going the wrong way in the time of BIOS. | Dec 07 04:32 |
| MinceR | there's a difference between some ODMs fucking up and fascists mandating something fucked up by design. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| MinceR | in the former case, the user can win. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| MinceR | in the latter case, the user can only lose. | Dec 07 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Please note if someone designed a replacement to UEFI and it had all the features NIST lists NIST accept it. Coreboot used in chromebooks with locked write switch passes nist. Yes user can unlock it and change the keys if they wish. | Dec 07 04:35 |
| MinceR | yet nobody else uses coreboot | Dec 07 04:36 |
| MinceR | see above, under ODMs being controlled by m$ and crApple | Dec 07 04:36 |
| MinceR | also, i still don't give a flying fuck about what the NIST accepts | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | coreboot in chromebook still checked loader against signing key. | Dec 07 04:37 |
| MinceR | which loader? | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | While not in developer mode. | Dec 07 04:37 |
| oiaohm | the chromeos loader from google is signed MinceR | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | afaik you can remove the whole notion of "developer mode" by replacing the writeable part of the firmware with your own | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | also, developer mode is easy to enable | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden switch | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | it's not a hidden feature that's activated by removing some keys somewhere or by playing with the system clock | Dec 07 04:38 |
| oiaohm | Chromebook is NIST conforming and userfriendly ish | Dec 07 04:38 |
| MinceR | chromebooks do things that, if you were only listening to NIST and m$, you'd think were impossible. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes replacing the keys in a chromebook is can be a total pain in ass. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | If you listesned only to NIST chromebooks are possible. | Dec 07 04:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: listerning to Microsoft/Intel you might get the wrong point of view. | Dec 07 04:40 |
| MinceR | developer mode isn't even secret, it's advertised, afaik | Dec 07 04:41 |
| MinceR | though allegedly that too fucks up warranty | Dec 07 04:42 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not encougage secrects about security features. | Dec 07 04:43 |
| MinceR | again, you'd never guess that if you looked at uefi | Dec 07 04:43 |
| oiaohm | You have to look at everything NIST approves of to get a clear picture about them. | Dec 07 04:43 |
| oiaohm | Android verified boot is also NIST conforming. | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | seeing them approve of the clusterfuck called uefi gives me sufficient information | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | i wouldn't want android verified boot on my x86 pc | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | android is enough of a pain in the ass on mobile devices | Dec 07 04:44 |
| MinceR | especially since they started playing with mountspaces | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST has no focus on userablity and it shows. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | they don't seem to have focus on anything | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | except maybe the money they get from m$ | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | They do have focus on historic security failures. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | NIST does not get money from Microsoft. | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | they're committed to creating more of those? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | how do you know? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| MinceR | are bribes generally publicized? | Dec 07 04:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Nist case yes accepting any gifts without formally declaring them risks of all things prosecution for treason and sent to a mil prison who knows where. | Dec 07 04:48 |
| MinceR | sounds like a foolproof method to avoid corruption | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | we have the recipe after all | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | so we must have stopped corruption everywhere | Dec 07 04:49 |
| MinceR | wait a minute | Dec 07 04:49 |
| oiaohm | Back in 2010 some NIST inspectors got done and end up in prison. | Dec 07 04:51 |
| MinceR | ones who weren't careful | Dec 07 04:52 |
| MinceR | or took bribes from the wrong party | Dec 07 04:52 |
| oiaohm | NIST is audted by FBI, CIA and NCIS. | Dec 07 04:52 |
| MinceR | if only they could also get the NSA on board | Dec 07 04:53 |
| oiaohm | NSA is suspected as well but confirming that is a bit hard. | Dec 07 04:53 |
| MinceR | "That's crazy. The government doesn't lie to people. " | Dec 07 04:53 |
| oiaohm | Of course the group writing rules for USA governement secuirty is going to be one of the most audited places on earth. | Dec 07 04:54 |
| MinceR | or it would be, if the people responsible actually cared and knew what they were doing | Dec 07 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Being the most audited place on earth does not mean the people there are 100 percent competent. | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, neither is often the case | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | case in point: NSA not caring that they fuck up security for the people who their bills | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | case in point #2: NIST (allegedly) propping up restricted boot | Dec 07 04:55 |
| MinceR | s/who /who pay / | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | No it was not allegedly I brought in the PDF for cubexyz before. | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | NIST who suggested secureboot idea. | Dec 07 04:56 |
| oiaohm | How to implement that NIST only gave a rough overview and left it up to the implemtenter to fill in the holes. | Dec 07 04:57 |
| MinceR | and then approved the horrible mess it led to | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly. | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | NIST did not approve the first EFI stuff where you could not change the platform key and could not use your own KEK keys. | Dec 07 04:58 |
| MinceR | when government organizations regularly do the opposite of what they're supposed to be doing, isn't it time to shut them down? | Dec 07 04:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so NIST did not approve the complete horible mess. NIST approved a slightly improved horible mess. | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | which is still a horrible mess | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | and still worse than what we had before the whole thing | Dec 07 05:00 |
| MinceR | and yet it's being increasingly forced on us | Dec 07 05:00 |
| oiaohm | Of course due to NIST being history looking they are still free to force more rules down the system. | Dec 07 05:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: thing to remember NIST is one of the parties who can create rules that ODM will follow. Problem is is working how to get them to push rules to make our life better. | Dec 07 05:03 |
| MinceR | that sounds extremely unlikely to work | Dec 07 05:03 |
| MinceR | it would be better to stop them from messing with our equipment | Dec 07 05:04 |
| oiaohm | There is an attempt at momement to get NIST to mandate open source firmware. | Dec 07 05:04 |
| MinceR | or you could try firing everyone who "works" there and hire people who know what they're doing in their place | Dec 07 05:04 |
| MinceR | i can see how successful that's going to be | Dec 07 05:04 |
| oiaohm | There is also questions at the FCC on the same matter. | Dec 07 05:06 |
| MinceR | well, yeah | Dec 07 05:06 |
| oiaohm | The reality here is if FCC and NIST madated Open source ODM would just have to suck it up. | Dec 07 05:06 |
| MinceR | after the whole "HERP DERP LOCK DOWN THE ROUTERS" bullshit from them | Dec 07 05:06 |
| oiaohm | Locking down the routers failed security assement. | Dec 07 05:07 |
| MinceR | i'd rather try 3d-printing my own IC-s | Dec 07 05:07 |
| oiaohm | So now the arguement has flipped on ear. | Dec 07 05:07 |
| MinceR | sounds like it's more likely to work | Dec 07 05:07 |
| oiaohm | Please note NIST got mixed up with the FCC over the routers. | Dec 07 05:08 |
| MinceR | well, at least they can't fuck things up even more for us while they're bickering with each other | Dec 07 05:08 |
| oiaohm | Historically NIST has not exactly liked closed source. | Dec 07 05:09 |
| oiaohm | Its more of a tollerance. | Dec 07 05:10 |
| MinceR | i wonder what changed their mind | Dec 07 05:10 |
| MinceR | $omething'$ telling me it'$ the exact $ame thing that ha$ done thi$ in every other ca$e | Dec 07 05:10 |
| oiaohm | No its not exactly money. It is more hurding cats. | Dec 07 05:12 |
| MinceR | or the usual fascist assumption that concentrating all power in the usian government/megacorporate complex will make things more secure for them | Dec 07 05:13 |
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| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 07 09:49 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 07 09:49 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 07 09:49 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805320196595712 | Dec 07 10:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/fiRtFKoqgD | Dec 07 10:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Article Highlights #EPO ’s Capitalist Venture Tendencies, Seeking to Just Maximize Profit, Irrespective of Public https://t.co/dOwKDwEnGl | Dec 07 10:06 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805616847171585 | Dec 07 10:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/4QzoOvqgoi | Dec 07 10:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World https://t.co/yoyptSZ7N3 | Dec 07 10:07 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673806178703552512 | Dec 07 10:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw E il membro Italiano ? https://t.co/wBGe6ji2mM | Dec 07 10:10 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The Tail That Wags the Dog: How an EPO President Virtually Controls the Administrative Council (AC) https://t.co/vGmM5p6K2I #epo | Dec 07 10:10 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/673813299788689408 | Dec 07 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/tlZLLjhcXN | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Steam for Linux Now Correctly Shows Only #SteamOS / #Linux Games in Big Picture Mode https://t.co/OaNDNALOoR | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- (Re-tweeted by Aid_Rostov) | Dec 07 10:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673817700255326208 | Dec 07 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz you are still WRONG | Dec 07 10:57 | |
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| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 07 18:05 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 07 18:05 | |
| schestowitz | I'm starting to just assume that someone at the BBC is suppressing the article and might wish to point this out if I don't hear back... | Dec 07 18:17 |
| schestowitz | 6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:15] <__martin__> meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50b | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | Not a big different | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | *difference | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | [17:14] <__martin__> schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPO | Dec 07 18:18 |
| schestowitz | No source, sounds new to me, maybe not credible or unlikely to become a potent thing | Dec 07 18:19 |
| schestowitz | like OpenISO amid OOXML scandals | Dec 07 18:19 |
| schestowitz | Never took off | Dec 07 18:19 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/theGuruWithin/status/673931988647067648 | Dec 07 18:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@theGuruWithin: .@Crypt0nymous .@schestowitz .@democracynow .@Freedom_Daily .@RT_com Bernie & Families First Dreamers FULL #idwp https://t.co/LpahP0uBTI | Dec 07 18:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673939867559182336 | Dec 07 19:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz @Sheikh_al_Touar Rather damning, that. | Dec 07 19:03 | |
| schestowitz | \upcWe just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 19:53 |
| schestowitz | We just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal. | Dec 07 19:53 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 20:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz this cries out for real stories about how quality is pursued. For example. | Dec 07 20:08 | |
| MinceR | (javascript) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/05/21/quiz-just-how-kafkaesque-is-the-court-that-oversees-nsa-spying/ | Dec 07 20:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | Quiz: Just how Kafkaesque is the court that oversees NSA spying? - The Washington Post | Dec 07 20:56 | |
| schestowitz | Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://avi.alkalay.net/2015/12/open-source-swift.html No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 07 20:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-avi.alkalay.net | Is Open Source Swift a good thing ? « Avi Alkalay | Dec 07 20:59 | |
| MinceR | typical crApple quality | Dec 07 21:00 |
| schestowitz | openssl patches for Ubuntu | Dec 07 21:11 |
| schestowitz | Just in: http://lwn.net/Articles/667035/rss | Dec 07 21:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Security advisories for Monday [LWN.net] | Dec 07 21:11 | |
| schestowitz | "Ubuntu has updated cups-filters (15.10, 15.04, 14.04: code execution), foomatic-filters (12.04: code execution), and openssl (multiple vulnerabilities). " | Dec 07 21:11 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/07/apple-open-source-first/ | Dec 07 21:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-9to5mac.com | Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism | 9to5Mac | Dec 07 21:16 | |
| MinceR | wow | Dec 07 21:16 |
| MinceR | that's got to be a first | Dec 07 21:16 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192 | Dec 07 21:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673973548113895424 | Dec 07 21:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Thnx waited for this post :) ...think youre a rich but busy social type + not happy of gov.politics . cool guy u lol https://t.co/2EtRhlZQsP | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Day 7 — Unicode, Perl 6, and You https://t.co/YSKIKLYZ76 #perl #unicode | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| schestowitz | I don't like politics | Dec 07 21:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/673974518113681408 | Dec 07 21:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz No, let's put Windows [N]XP in every automotive engine. (The games will keep the car amused while idling.) | Dec 07 21:26 | |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 07 21:26 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MCCob/status/673975611774345216 | Dec 07 21:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MCCob: @schestowitz @AlexArchambault any proof that they _only_ use not encrypted communication ? ISIS use encryption | Dec 07 21:27 | |
| MinceR | i didn't know BSoDs were signs of amusement | Dec 07 21:27 |
| schestowitz | People who carry out successful attacks evidently don't use these tools | Dec 07 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673975763612409857 | Dec 07 21:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: True noticed that, on paper they are perfect...but not socialy adaptive knowledges or patience to catch, sucseed https://t.co/g1HWWcu9Nc | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #Security lacks patience https://t.co/ZUWbHOzKkX | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/673976106744057856 | Dec 07 21:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: Bwahaha, hilarious. https://t.co/lwONgsRHok | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 07 21:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978026938507265 | Dec 07 21:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Logic, wait, you're not a member of the Reality-Based Community are you? You'd never make it as a policymaker! | Dec 07 21:31 | |
| schestowitz | Sarcasm community | Dec 07 21:31 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978403549265922 | Dec 07 21:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Indeed. | Dec 07 21:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/slimekat/status/673979096569937921 | Dec 07 21:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@slimekat: @schestowitz @kstallett @andrewtraviss lol | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673979261833912324 | Dec 07 21:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Me 2 realy hate them, personal issues. Never studied english but can exptess profoundly the rights of people :) thnx https://t.co/udoOONPVZj | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @blankebelg I don't like politics | Dec 07 21:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673980481105485824 | Dec 07 21:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz They should probably also ban human to human interaction. All this will mean we forget the gov forgot to track known extremists | Dec 07 21:47 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ReystarTech/status/673985338797334533 | Dec 07 22:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ReystarTech: RT @schestowitz: #Google To Launch #Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? https://t.co/zhXLddy4DC #linux | Dec 07 22:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidheadlines.com | Google To Launch Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? | Androidheadlines.com | Dec 07 22:06 | |
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| cubexyz | you don't think bsods like this one are funny? | Dec 07 22:53 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/bsod-microsoft-vista.jpg | Dec 07 22:54 |
| cubexyz | when they can't keep a demo from bsoding it's funny | Dec 07 22:55 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 07 22:55 |
| schestowitz | they should replace the blue screen with all pixels blacked | Dec 07 22:58 |
| schestowitz | then they can insist the photos were taken while the monitors were switched off | Dec 07 22:58 |
| cubexyz | haha | Dec 07 22:58 |
| schestowitz | it's like a rebrand of BSOD | Dec 07 22:59 |
| schestowitz | to evade the negative press | Dec 07 22:59 |
| schestowitz | and the stigma | Dec 07 22:59 |
| MinceR | they already tried automatically rebooting when the BSoD pops up | Dec 07 23:00 |
| cubexyz | this one is funny too: | Dec 07 23:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg | Dec 07 23:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg ) | Dec 07 23:00 | |
| cubexyz | "have you tried rebooting?" | Dec 07 23:02 |
| cubexyz | yes I did, and it bsoded again in the same spot | Dec 07 23:02 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674002953989136385 | Dec 07 23:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What's happened? | Dec 07 23:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674004469944819712 | Dec 07 23:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What? | Dec 07 23:47 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674009346095882240 | Dec 07 23:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz alibi? | Dec 07 23:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/azrilxx/status/674015748306558976 | Dec 08 00:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@azrilxx: Until they tackle Exchange, can't see them fighting Outlook any time soon https://t.co/VU5ddEqxw1 | Dec 08 00:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Potential cooperation between #LibreOffice and #Thunderbird https://t.co/cHOrphmdVH | Dec 08 00:05 | |
| cubexyz | I'm happy I'm off windows | Dec 08 00:15 |
| cubexyz | things seem to be a lot worst now then the win2k era | Dec 08 00:16 |
| cubexyz | forced download and install of windows 10 just seems totally wrong | Dec 08 00:16 |
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| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 08 00:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 08 00:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 08 00:31 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017647340756993 https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017917592301568 | Dec 08 00:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: ничего,. Паства будет помнить этот факт и передавать из уст в уста)) https://t.co/MBeYw5qEsv | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religion | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @perfectlysoft @matt_clarkson @github But i agree with https://t.co/OUkfiedrZt | Dec 08 00:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://t.co/2N2p6AKP9W No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms" | Dec 08 00:32 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898137 | Dec 08 01:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Did the #EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? http://techrights.org/2015/12/07/bbc-and-epo/ | Dec 08 01:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Did the EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? | Techrights | Dec 08 01:49 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/674157378468749312 | Dec 08 09:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz basically everyone else has to do the BS verification just so that they have a stick to go after a few specific targets | Dec 08 09:37 | |
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| A_Friend | Hardon vs EPO https://www.docdroid.net/xw8mJzt/20151120-4th-letter-ef2jk-council-on-institutional-harassment-redacted.pdf.html | Dec 08 09:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.docdroid.net | 20151120 4th Letter EF2JK_Council on Institutional harassment redacted.pdf - DocDroid | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674162468848017408 | Dec 08 09:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Pirate Bay’s .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification https://t.co/q5AvqB9j7u #icann #censorship | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> torrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay's .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification - TorrentFreak | Dec 08 09:46 | |
| schestowitz | A_Friend: I know | Dec 08 09:46 |
| schestowitz | article on its way | Dec 08 09:47 |
| A_Friend | ok, thanks | Dec 08 09:47 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674164461406695424 | Dec 08 09:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz Lots of people there actually has felt as USSR for years. | Dec 08 09:58 | |
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| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 8 12:46:25 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 08 12:46 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 08 12:46 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 08 12:46 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/boards-of-appeal-tell-ac-we-were-never.html?showComment=1449576934490 | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Tony Soprano said... | Dec 08 13:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Boards of Appeal tell AC: we were never consulted | Dec 08 13:13 | |
| schestowitz | SUEPO “is not a trade union, it’s a mafia-type entity” according to Battistelli. | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | Well that clearly explains the need for forensic investigators ... | Dec 08 13:13 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 08 13:13 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 08 13:23 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674223728742555649 | Dec 08 14:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz "Mannaggia! ...Forget about it! ....hey boss, should we call Luca Brasi and have him take care of this?" | Dec 08 14:04 | |
| schestowitz | LOL | Dec 08 14:04 |
| schestowitz | Librem send me a test unit to review (and return) | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | excerpt: | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > Roy, | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completed | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confident | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard to | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future. | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | > All the best, | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | I have been following -- and covering -- Qubes for a number of years. I suppose these guys noticed. It sounds like a very legitimising partner because Qubes are known for some high quality security research, all the way down to boot sequences if not silicon (one of the points for which Librem got flack). | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | My wife doesn't requiee security and privacy to the same degree I do because I currently deal with some nasty organisations that hired spies to go after me (confirmed) and try to unmask my sources. They also sent me legal letters in an effort to bully me (not sure if you saw this in the media as recently as weeks ago). | Dec 08 14:13 |
| schestowitz | I intend to test the unit from the perspective of an activist/journalist... | Dec 08 14:14 |
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| schestowitz | two identical posts with the title "What Are Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) ? How Can You Benefit Out Of MOOCs?" were published this morning. In succession. I unpublished one of them to avoid the duplication, hoping it'll be just fine (I checked to be sure that both entries were identical) | Dec 08 14:29 |
| schestowitz | (tux machines) | Dec 08 14:30 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674235164256575488 | Dec 08 14:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @reportrai3 @t_montinari @AltalexNews https://t.co/TuWQlmf6gx | Dec 08 14:36 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: People who say I write too much about the #epo probably don't grasp the severity of the matter. Too fast? As fact as I receive material... | Dec 08 14:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674238950765166593 | Dec 08 14:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: Jesus Christ.... No decency, no dignity, no honour at all. https://t.co/ffS7yeYRhG | Dec 08 14:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: In J’accuse of Team #battistelli at #epo the spinners try to paint managers as saving staff from suicides, blame in on SUEPO. Guffaw! | Dec 08 14:48 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898379 | Dec 08 14:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Based on action/response logic, #france should NOT ban Tor or Free Wi-Fi but ban -- wait for it -- SMS. That's what these guys used. | Dec 08 14:58 | |
| schestowitz | "I think that the attack was a happy coincidence for the French Government to go ahead with plans made long before. And that if it was not a false flag." | Dec 08 14:58 |
| schestowitz | "Very clever point, Roy!" | Dec 08 14:58 |
| schestowitz | "similar to other attacks we've seen..." | Dec 08 14:58 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/674261557304541184 | Dec 08 16:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/fo9vc7AUk2 | Dec 08 16:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How 1,699 #Linux #games can give #SteamOS a boost https://t.co/8WbG9iS6YL and #debian by extension | Dec 08 16:19 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/redlocal/status/674272550004891648 | Dec 08 17:01 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@redlocal: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZG6NTArhYI #ubuntu https://t.co/CrxpoURMzS | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> linux.softpedia.com | elementary Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's Launchpad to GitHub | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZNEPeVoykY #ubuntu | Dec 08 17:01 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: What's a "National Front"? | Dec 08 17:11 |
| *msb_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 08 17:12 | |
| schestowitz | in France | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | Their Nazi party basically | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | with very racist statements towards all sorts of groups | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | not just Muslims | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | They're now the leading party | Dec 08 17:12 |
| schestowitz | thanks to ISIS | Dec 08 17:13 |
| schestowitz | #google national front france nazis | Dec 08 17:13 |
| schestowitz | !google national front france nazis | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - National Front (France) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France) | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Jean-Marie Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_Pen | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Marine Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_Pen | Dec 08 17:13 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Far-right National Front triumph in France - Daily Mail | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638965/Massive-victory-French-far-right-National-Front-record-quarter-vote-Euro-elections.html | Dec 08 17:13 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: France… it degrades pretty quickly. | Dec 08 17:14 |
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| XRevan86 | schestowitz: I don't think this is really ISIL "fault" as it's people's choice how to respond to terrorism. | Dec 08 17:22 |
| MinceR | terrorism and the cults that lead to it are also people's choices | Dec 08 17:34 |
| XRevan86 | MinceR: Indeed. | Dec 08 17:34 |
| schestowitz | !google mirage embargo france | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - France–Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%25E2%2580%2593Israel_relations | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5 | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - France - The Six-Day War | http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/france.asp | Dec 08 17:38 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - French History and Current Attitudes to Israel - An interview with ... | http://www.jcpa.org/israel-europe/ier-eytan-05.htm | Dec 08 17:38 |
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| arossdotme | sounds like, to quote a first person shooter game: "Terrorists Win" | Dec 08 18:55 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674301341313953792 | Dec 08 18:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Actually it was the USSR who backed North Vietnam. China did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 in fact. | Dec 08 18:59 | |
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| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 09 10:08 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 09 10:08 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 09 10:08 | |
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| schestowitz | http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2438351/microsoft-begins-migrating-office-365-smb-customers-to-new-plans | Dec 09 10:16 |
| schestowitz | Not sure what to do with this link. Maybe I miss the key part... | Dec 09 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theinquirer.net | Microsoft begins migrating Office 365 SMB customers to new plans- The Inquirer | Dec 09 10:16 | |
| cubexyz | I'm sure Microsoft is screwing over their customers as usual | Dec 09 10:27 |
| cubexyz | padding their revenue stream as usual | Dec 09 10:27 |
| cubexyz | it's all about the subscription plans | Dec 09 10:29 |
| cubexyz | pay M$ forever | Dec 09 10:31 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 09 10:32 |
| schestowitz | but that's not news ;-) | Dec 09 10:32 |
| cubexyz | probably people aren't upgrading fast enough, thus Office 365 | Dec 09 10:34 |
| cubexyz | also Office 365 Home Premium needs windows 7 | Dec 09 10:38 |
| cubexyz | can't have people not upgrading don't you know | Dec 09 10:38 |
| cubexyz | also the cloud will keep the NSA guys happy | Dec 09 10:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz the question I have is when will Office 365 require windows 10. | Dec 09 10:40 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're not thinking like a true Microsoftie yet | Dec 09 10:41 |
| cubexyz | Office 365 will need Windows 365 in the future | Dec 09 10:41 |
| cubexyz | btw, Microsoft has trademarked Windows 365 already | Dec 09 10:42 |
| cubexyz | I mean, you don't have to be Nostradamus to see what's going on | Dec 09 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Libreoffice online is coming along. | Dec 09 10:44 |
| cubexyz | some survey data says the average person buys a new computer every 4.5 years | Dec 09 10:46 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/COMU/libreonline-owncloud | Dec 09 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | COMU/libreonline-owncloud · GitHub | Dec 09 10:46 | |
| cubexyz | in comparison....I'm quite the outlier | Dec 09 10:47 |
| cubexyz | I salvaged this Dell GX110 | Dec 09 10:48 |
| cubexyz | no one wanted it... makes a good IRC box though | Dec 09 10:48 |
| cubexyz | the funny thing is, I've talked to several folks that wanted a 486 | Dec 09 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Really I suspect things will get more interesting as Libreoffice online matures. | Dec 09 10:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674538690727813120 | Dec 09 10:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @borghi_claudio @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico #TPP The older, yet less known brother of #TTIP https://t.co/aDMY6adHw6 | Dec 09 10:50 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How the #TPP Will Affect You and Your Digital Rights https://t.co/ml20zPG5Dw cc @glynmoody | Dec 09 10:50 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.org/project,ao486 that is a 486sx built using modern bits. | Dec 09 10:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | ao486 :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:52 | |
| cubexyz | I think bochs bios is open source, so that's kind of appealing | Dec 09 10:54 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are other insanity as well http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~yiannac/docs/fpga07.pdf | Dec 09 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Yes pentuim cpu removed and fpga chip put in it place is the pdf. | Dec 09 10:55 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, opencores PDP-11 would be more fun I think | Dec 09 10:55 |
| cubexyz | I've definitely considered it | Dec 09 10:55 |
| oiaohm | http://opencores.org/project,next186_soc_pc I have looked at this one for some of my very old code. | Dec 09 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | Next186 SoC PC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:57 | |
| cubexyz | PDP-11/70 running Unix v5 | Dec 09 10:57 |
| cubexyz | http://opencores.com/project,w11 | Dec 09 10:57 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Overview :: OpenCores | Dec 09 10:57 | |
| oiaohm | This is party why I say to people please don't think you have to run old hardware. | Dec 09 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Lot of really old hardware can be emulated in fpga quite well and been a lot more dependable than the true stuff that is like 30 years old. | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | getting a real PDP-11/70 that works well would be very expensive | Dec 09 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem is even if you got a real PDP-11/70 that worked today. The question is how long until another old part bites it. | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 09 11:00 |
| cubexyz | but for some, fixing stuff is half the fun | Dec 09 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Its still not straight forwards setting up a fpga chip. | Dec 09 11:01 |
| oiaohm | Like you have to wire up all the outputs and the the like. | Dec 09 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Also the fpga emulation can use less power than the old machine would. | Dec 09 11:02 |
| cubexyz | definitely | Dec 09 11:02 |
| cubexyz | way less :) | Dec 09 11:02 |
| oiaohm | Also way smaller as well. | Dec 09 11:04 |
| oiaohm | particularly in the case of PDP-11/70 compare to it soc replacement. | Dec 09 11:04 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://opencores.com/project,w11,performance hmm that is a PDP-11/70 on go fast juice. | Dec 09 11:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Performance :: OpenCores | Dec 09 11:07 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=BASYS3 so less than 300 dollars in parts to set up a PDP-11/70 emulated solution in modern day parts. | Dec 09 11:13 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.digilentinc.com | Digilent Inc. - Digital Design Engineer's Source | Dec 09 11:13 | |
| oiaohm | Kinda tempting if I was into running old Unix systems. | Dec 09 11:13 |
| cubexyz | well you can run simh for free :) | Dec 09 11:14 |
| cubexyz | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6c_0pqLE3w | Dec 09 11:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | unix version 5 demo - YouTube | Dec 09 11:16 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html | Dec 09 11:16 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:16 |
| schestowitz | The ILO decision linked by Kant is disheartening. It reveals poor behaviour on both sides, going back many years. While a few of Mrs E.H.'s complaints were upheld, more were dismissed. | Dec 09 11:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to Eponia | Dec 09 11:17 | |
| schestowitz | It seems to me that there are two causes of the social unrest at the EPO. It would be tempting to say "a plague on both their houses". But that would still leave serious problems. | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | If there is to be a solution, change and cooperation is needed from both sides. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any signs of change or cooperation from either side. Each side no doubt blames the other for the failure of the dialogue requested by the AC. | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Vive le Roi! said... | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | "Today yet another member of the "inner circle" (I won't use the term mafia) was promoted to the rank of director." | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Actually, there is an interesting graph which shows how the closest "collaborateurs" of Mr. Battistelli either originate from the INPI (Institut national de la propriété industrielle, of which Battistelli was the president) or are bound by family links between each other ... | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | Who said "nepotism"? | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | "Just one more blatant violation of the EPC, with obvious consequences. Inbreeding is prohibited under Art. 53 b) EPC" | Dec 09 11:17 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | The commenter that is convinced that BB and his clique will soon be shown the door is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | The reality is that France is on the front line, the cutting edge, of a war to defend our most fundamental freedoms and we are all called upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with the French. Nobody dares to suggest otherwise. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | What are these fundamental values of which I write. Well, you know, the Secular State, the Rule of Law and the Separation of Powers. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | What separation? The separation of the three branches: legislative, judicial and executive. BB is just a good soldier, bringing the mischief and wickedness to an end, doing his bit for Europe. He tells the Administrative Council (and himself, just like Tony Blair did) that, in the end, history and the public will come to recognise the sacrifices he has made, for the greater good of Europe. | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | But it didn't work out quite like that for Tony, did it? | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 11:18 |
| schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6903284 | Dec 09 11:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Stefan Krempl's article in German - if SUEPO doesn't produce a translation, does anyone else want to? ttp://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Europaeisches-Patentamt-Streit-zwischen-Fuehrung-und-Mitarbeitern-spitzt-sich-rasch-zu-3036971.html #epo | Dec 09 11:20 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6902547 | Dec 09 11:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of #EPO Staff Representatives http://techrights.org/2015/12/08/letter-to-administrative-council/ | Dec 09 11:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/674313610139668480 https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/673830690169851904 https://twitter.com/EuropePAN/status/674543042133626880 https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/674548732126433280 https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/674551671847002112 | Dec 09 11:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of EPO Staff Representatives | Techrights | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@arusbridger: Before giving a state massive surveillance powers probably best to think how, eg, Donald Trump or Marine le Pen wd use them | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Superb BBC correction, after Sir Doug Ellis accused of being "with Hezbollah" instead of "with a Villa scarf": https://t.co/t2HIHY93GO #avfc | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.birminghammail.co.uk | Read the BBC's apology to Sir Doug Ellis after an unfortunate subtitle mix up on Match of the Day - Birmingham Mail | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfr | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CAR | Dec 09 11:31 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: I still have lots of #epo articles coming, but at least the backlog is now of a size I can almost get my head around (alta vista) | Dec 09 11:31 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674568656077111296 | Dec 09 12:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @altalex @altreconomia https://t.co/DuCYjN487o | Dec 09 12:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: EU Commission unveils next steps for #copyright reform, including draft content portability regulation https://t.co/IGNdlix7fo | Dec 09 12:39 | |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674582224692449281 | Dec 09 13:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/YY8hOj5MzJ | Dec 09 13:35 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zdnet.com | Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects | ZDNet | Dec 09 13:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674583550226776067 | Dec 09 13:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @SleepyPenguin1 Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/PfQpB14vPj | Dec 09 13:43 | |
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| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 09 18:08 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 09 18:08 | |
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| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | Nick about 4 hours ago | Dec 09 18:50 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 09 18:50 |
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| msb_ | cubexyz: Hello? | Dec 09 20:23 |
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| msb_ | Yet another call from "Your computer is sending bad signals. Press 1 to talk to a certified microsoft idiot". Foreign accent, didn't know if he was in Las Vegas or Los Angeles. Hung up without trying to get any money from me, again. NoMoRobo didn't catch them, so I reported their number. | Dec 09 23:18 |
| msb_ | What is their racket, anyhow? | Dec 09 23:24 |
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| cubexyz | http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/11/malwarebytes | Dec 10 01:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.wired.co.uk | What happens if you play along with a Microsoft 'tech support' scam? (Wired UK) | Dec 10 01:04 | |
| cubexyz | the racket is to get money from the victim | Dec 10 01:05 |
| cubexyz | get teamviewer on your computer and allow 3rd party control of the victim's computer | Dec 10 01:07 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: sometimes it great fun to have virtual machines. | Dec 10 01:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I remember the main reason for EFI in the first place. MBR has a max harddrive size in BIOS standard of 2TB. | Dec 10 01:20 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: basically we have out grown what old school BIOS can support. | Dec 10 01:21 |
| cubexyz | EFI was subverted by Microsoft | Dec 10 01:21 |
| oiaohm | Part Microsoft. | Dec 10 01:22 |
| cubexyz | they are using Microsoft data formats | Dec 10 01:22 |
| oiaohm | Some of the MS format usage makes sense. | Dec 10 01:22 |
| oiaohm | fat series of file systems is one of the most OS supported file systems on earth. | Dec 10 01:23 |
| oiaohm | signing comes out of NIST requirements mixed with ODM wanting to be evil so and so and Microsoft seeing the advantage. | Dec 10 01:23 |
| cubexyz | there's lots of McDonald's restaurants, but that doesn't make it a good one | Dec 10 01:23 |
| cubexyz | popular != good | Dec 10 01:24 |
| oiaohm | Case of fat its not exactly good. But there was worse like UDF. | Dec 10 01:24 |
| cubexyz | anyways, I reject using EFI or UEFI | Dec 10 01:25 |
| oiaohm | PE happens to be the best choice out of the COFF class of file formats. | Dec 10 01:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there is 1 area I do have a problem with. Exaclty why CAB for UEFI capsules. Its not the best in it class. | Dec 10 01:28 |
| cubexyz | if you had the old bios source you could keep patching it, it's only because we live in a closed source BIOS world that we can't | Dec 10 01:29 |
| MinceR | these excuses for stuff like [u]efi would be amusing if it wasn't a major offensive against the general purpose computer | Dec 10 01:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios mandates a lot of stupidity. | Dec 10 01:29 |
| cubexyz | it's just code and data, nothing special | Dec 10 01:29 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: old school bios end up running code in SMM to make USB keyboards and mice appear PS/2 | Dec 10 01:29 |
| MinceR | uefi also runs SMM | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | find another excuse | Dec 10 01:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry a clean UEFI does not have to have any code running in SMM. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I'm sure if I spent more time studying things (which I am trying to do) I would find a lot of crufty code | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sorry, a clean uefi does not exist on the market. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its not madated as part of UEFI design to have it. | Dec 10 01:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: nobody cares what uefi mandates, all they care about is what m$ mandates. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| cubexyz | so my main objection is the proprietary closed source once again | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there are clean UEFI in some Intel class motherboards. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: how many of those were sold? | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: 4 and half million to amazon google and facebook. | Dec 10 01:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what percentage is that of total uefi systems sold? | Dec 10 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't know percentage they are one of the highly popular server boards because they are stable. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| cubexyz | also what other alternatives to UEFI exist? | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not having crap happening hiddne in SMM helps things. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | bios, coreboot, u-boot (not on x86, afaik) | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | u-boot can be used on x86. | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: what about crap happening hidden in uefi? | Dec 10 01:32 |
| MinceR | libreboot, if you want to count that separately | Dec 10 01:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: a clean implemtnation of UEFI once the OS is up everything from UEFI is shutdown. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: of course there are a lot of dirty UEFI implementations out there. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | like TianoCore? | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | and why do you pretend nothing matters until the OS is up? | Dec 10 01:33 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore is clean. | Dec 10 01:33 |
| MinceR | TianoCore is bigger than Linux without drivers | Dec 10 01:34 |
| MinceR | why does a boot firmware have to be so huge? | Dec 10 01:34 |
| MinceR | there are uefi implementations so bloated they don't even fit in ROM, they also occupy part of the HDD | Dec 10 01:34 |
| cubexyz | coreboot is better anyway | Dec 10 01:35 |
| MinceR | of course, but oiaohm will never see that | Dec 10 01:35 |
| cubexyz | the other problem is lack of coreboot support | Dec 10 01:35 |
| MinceR | maybe hw manufacturers get off on screwing their customers | Dec 10 01:35 |
| oiaohm | TianoCore has to contain drivers. | Dec 10 01:36 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: starting the hardware to access harddrives and the like means using drivers. | Dec 10 01:36 |
| MinceR | afaik it does not contain drivers | Dec 10 01:38 |
| oiaohm | https://github.com/tianocore/tianocore.github.io/wiki/Driver-Developer | Dec 10 01:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | Driver Developer · tianocore/tianocore.github.io Wiki · GitHub [ http://ur1.ca/oc4hk ] | Dec 10 01:38 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: TianoCore does contain some drivers and then provided means to write more. | Dec 10 01:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not OS of some form starts the system. Even old school bios has drivers. | Dec 10 01:41 |
| MinceR | it's still not nearly as bloated as uefi | Dec 10 01:42 |
| oiaohm | coreboot does not support the range of hardware TianoCore does. | Dec 10 01:42 |
| cubexyz | btw coreboot (the one I built) fill into 256K | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | of course, it's for an older computer... BX chipset | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | s/fill/fit/ | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | I'd say that's not too bloated | Dec 10 01:43 |
| cubexyz | that's with seabios added | Dec 10 01:44 |
| cubexyz | the real question is: can you build your own BIOS? | Dec 10 01:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the coreboot you build was without signing right. | Dec 10 01:45 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, that's right | Dec 10 01:45 |
| oiaohm | Adding signing that add on about 256 alone. | Dec 10 01:45 |
| MinceR | will signing protect your box from an attacker that has physical access? | Dec 10 01:45 |
| cubexyz | with the ECS board and BIOS_WP it's not even necessary | Dec 10 01:46 |
| cubexyz | so you want BIOS_WP jumper | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | it's not necessary in any case | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: chromebook signing on coreboot prevents swaping bootloaders. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | it's just another case of lock-in with security theater as the excuse | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: at least without informating user. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's developer mode for that | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | afaik you can swap bootloaders on chromebook | Dec 10 01:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes but in developer mode you are informed the bootloader could be fake. | Dec 10 01:46 |
| MinceR | https://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/ec-development | Dec 10 01:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.chromium.org | Chromium Embedded Controller (EC) Development - The Chromium Projects [ http://ur1.ca/n2hox ] | Dec 10 01:47 | |
| oiaohm | The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| oiaohm | and the means to load drivers as well as loader from FAT. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, you're right, things are very bloated | Dec 10 01:48 |
| MinceR | "A hardware-based mechanism is used to prevent the RO firmware from being changed. The most common design is to have an input grounded by a screw. When the screw is inserted, hardware write protect is enabled. This grounded signal can be read by the host chipset and EC. It is also routed to the “write protect” pin on any SPI flash chips containing firmware." | Dec 10 01:48 |
| oiaohm | And there is a really horible reason for the FAT support. | Dec 10 01:48 |
| MinceR | something the idiots who came up with uefi couldn't think of | Dec 10 01:48 |
| cubexyz | but it's not necessary.... especially if you're running old stuff | Dec 10 01:49 |
| oiaohm | True cubexyz old stuff correct new stuff not so much. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | 024822 < oiaohm> The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| cubexyz | we don't have to just lie down an accept everything they throw at us | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | and what did i say about FAT support... | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | (also think about whether bios needed that) | Dec 10 01:49 |
| oiaohm | Lot of newer cards don't have firmware chips. | Dec 10 01:49 |
| MinceR | yes, and lots of broken hw comes with uefi | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | They are depending on the OS or bios to have thier firmware. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | people can come up with stupid designs | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Or worse. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean it has to be forced on everybody | Dec 10 01:50 |
| oiaohm | Not exactly stupid. | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | just like cancerd | Dec 10 01:50 |
| MinceR | yeah, forcing winblows or macos on the user is so S-M-R-T | Dec 10 01:51 |
| MinceR | and so's permanently bricking the "computer" | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | The reason for drivers in FAT on filesystem from EFI is to allow for something nasty. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| MinceR | yeah, they love nasty things | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Lets say you have a OS driver needing a particular firmware version. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I just recently discovered a work-around for Unix v5 dd | Dec 10 01:51 |
| oiaohm | Now you have more than 1 OS installed on that computer. | Dec 10 01:51 |
| cubexyz | the dd from that era had a 65536 byte limit | Dec 10 01:52 |
| cubexyz | I can fix that, since I have the source | Dec 10 01:52 |
| cubexyz | 16-bit int from 1974 :) | Dec 10 01:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the sad reality is EFI fat support comes from EFI including the means to properly boot multi OSs. Of course ODM don't want to have to do support on multi OS and Microsoft does not want users using something not Microsoft. | Dec 10 01:53 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: we already had a reliable method to boot multi OS-es | Dec 10 01:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not in cases of firmware conflit. | Dec 10 01:54 |
| MinceR | and it involved not relying on intel's or m$'s broken code | Dec 10 01:54 |
| MinceR | then don't buy hw with braindead drivers | Dec 10 01:54 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is when the hardware is new the drivers support can look fine. | Dec 10 01:55 |
| oiaohm | Its when an OS is deprecated by vendor does these problem appear. | Dec 10 01:55 |
| cubexyz | what if the manufacuturer disappears? we need the BIOS source for those motherboards too | Dec 10 01:55 |
| MinceR | and even with that bullshit multiboot support users still find themselves relying on bootloaders and trickery | Dec 10 01:55 |
| MinceR | even stubs signed by m$ | Dec 10 01:55 |
| cubexyz | not only the source, but the tools to actually build it | Dec 10 01:55 |
| MinceR | so this is yet another transparent excuse | Dec 10 01:56 |
| cubexyz | otherwise what you have is (un)planned obsolescence | Dec 10 01:56 |
| MinceR | maybe if uefi pushers put as much effort into uefi as they put into the excuses and into depriving users of choice, they would have ended up with a product worth using | Dec 10 01:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a cat fight going on. Multiboot support in working EFI implementations stop the case different OS installs screwing up each other loaders. | Dec 10 01:57 |
| MinceR | but that's not the One Microsoft Way, is it? | Dec 10 01:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but there is a problem of ODM and Microsoft wanting it. | Dec 10 01:58 |
| MinceR | and of course none of this would matter much if antitrust regulations were actually enforced in the USA and in the EU | Dec 10 01:58 |
| oiaohm | Most of the reasoning behind UEFI/EFI is sold. | Dec 10 01:58 |
| oiaohm | sold/solid. | Dec 10 01:59 |
| MinceR | or so you believe | Dec 10 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Like the PK by standard was always to be under the end users control. Of course ODM and Microsoft did not want that. | Dec 10 01:59 |
| oiaohm | Some of the worse of UEFI on users comes from Implementers not wanting to follow standard. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| oiaohm | The secureboot switch was a trick. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| MinceR | the entirety of uefi is a trick | Dec 10 02:00 |
| oiaohm | Standard to turn off secureboot is remove PK. | Dec 10 02:00 |
| MinceR | it's a hoax | Dec 10 02:01 |
| MinceR | it's a scam | Dec 10 02:01 |
| oiaohm | The implementers put the secureboot switch in to hide the fact they were not offering PK removal. | Dec 10 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Now everyone is getting up set because the secureboot switch has disappeared. But what should have been in the first place is now being provided. | Dec 10 02:02 |
| MinceR | people should be upset because they don't get to choose anything other than uefi | Dec 10 02:03 |
| oiaohm | That problem is not secureboot. | Dec 10 02:03 |
| MinceR | even with the switch, uefi is bloated, unreliable garbage | Dec 10 02:03 |
| MinceR | restricted boot is part of the problem | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Please note the swtich added extra code paths. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | but uefi is bloated enough to have room for many more problems than that | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | That create more of a problem. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | please note that even without the switch, uefi was far more bloated than any alternative | Dec 10 02:04 |
| oiaohm | Removing the secureboot switch in fact reduced bloat. | Dec 10 02:04 |
| MinceR | removing restricted boot would also reduce bloat | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | as you've pointed out a while ago | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | and it would reduce bloat a lot more than removing the switch would | Dec 10 02:05 |
| oiaohm | Removing switch removed just as much as removing the complete secure boot system. | Dec 10 02:05 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 10 02:05 |
| oiaohm | Intel developer had it I wish I had recorded the link. | Dec 10 02:06 |
| MinceR | then again, with intel/m$ drone skills i can imagine that they could fuck up even such a simple thing as a switch | Dec 10 02:06 |
| MinceR | it's scary to imagine that such retards get to decide what gets into the firmware of our devices | Dec 10 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Deleting the PK is absolute on and off. | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | poettering-level development skills | Dec 10 02:07 |
| oiaohm | secureboot switch cmos reset it could turn back on. | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | how difficult is it to have the swith on the UI simply delete the PK or restore it from ROM? | Dec 10 02:07 |
| MinceR | s/ith/itch/ | Dec 10 02:07 |
| oiaohm | The switch end up checking 30+ places to find out if secureboot should on or off. | Dec 10 02:08 |
| MinceR | and whose fault is that? | Dec 10 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Current UEFI to standard they have a simple unenrol PK option and a restore factory option. | Dec 10 02:08 |
| oiaohm | Of course if PK is filled with zeros don't bother execututing the secureboot code. | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | i prefer the "non-uefi" option | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | don't even bother including that code | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | it only serves m$'s purpose | Dec 10 02:09 |
| oiaohm | It is possible to build UEFI without secureboot code. | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | let them store it and run it on their systems | Dec 10 02:09 |
| MinceR | why do ODMs not do that, then? | Dec 10 02:09 |
| cubexyz | windows 10 certification maybe? | Dec 10 02:10 |
| MinceR | and again, the whole parade of excuses for uefi falls apart | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | it's all there because m$ is pulling the strings | Dec 10 02:11 |
| cubexyz | I fear so | Dec 10 02:11 |
| oiaohm | but the problem is you cannot inload this into motherboards in most cases now due to ODM writing like Intel Boot Guard public keys into hardware. | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | just like how none of the fascists could explain why any of the alleged security functionality of TPM needs the endorsement key | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | (it doesn't, only the DRM functionality needs it, which is the whole point of the TPM) | Dec 10 02:11 |
| MinceR | yes, intel boot guard is another part of the problem | Dec 10 02:12 |
| oiaohm | NIST is demarding TPM be socketed on to motherboard. | Dec 10 02:12 |
| oiaohm | So you can physically pull the bastard off. | Dec 10 02:12 |
| MinceR | i demand the NIST be shut down | Dec 10 02:13 |
| MinceR | haven't they done enough damage already? | Dec 10 02:13 |
| MinceR | we've had the technology that already does all the defensible functionality of the TPM for ages | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | it's called a smart card | Dec 10 02:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: before NIST demard TPM chips were being soldered on to motherboard. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | so stop putting clipper chips on the mainboards and start using smartcards. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| oiaohm | With the possiblatiy of being embedded into the chipset. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: before TPM, smartcards existed. | Dec 10 02:14 |
| MinceR | and before uefi, bios existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before systemd, unix existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: NIST demard takes TPM back to being like a smartcard security. | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before hypePhones, real smartphones running open platforms existed | Dec 10 02:15 |
| MinceR | and before the w3c sold out, the open web existed | Dec 10 02:16 |
| MinceR | see where i'm going with this? | Dec 10 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Really we need NIST or China equal or EU equal to make the same demard over items like boot guard. | Dec 10 02:16 |
| cubexyz | the open web still exists | Dec 10 02:16 |
| cubexyz | e.g. archive.org | Dec 10 02:16 |
| MinceR | not for long, if w3c and its owners get their way | Dec 10 02:17 |
| oiaohm | Like the EU regulartor could step in and address some of these problems. | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | not for long with all this html5 hype going around and swallowed | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | when has the EU ever done anything substantial to protect its members/citizens' interests? | Dec 10 02:17 |
| MinceR | (no, forcing windows xp n edition to be offered was not it) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, letting vista10 get away with forcing ie to be the default browser was not it either) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| MinceR | (and no, their ongoing support for the orban regime isn't it, either) | Dec 10 02:18 |
| oiaohm | EU forcing charges on phones not to keep on using different plugs. EU support of Samba to protect it against Microsoft possible patent attacks. | Dec 10 02:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Of coruse like all regulators not everything they try is the right thing. | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | cubexyz: Regarding the FPGA 11/70: | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Are FPGAs reprogrammable? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Is there X for Unix 5? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Can the 11/70 sim use an X86 on the bus for floating point? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | Can it use large disk partitions -- 1 TB? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| msb_ | How does the integer speed compare with an 8-core AMD? | Dec 10 02:19 |
| MinceR | neither of those are substantial | Dec 10 02:19 |
| MinceR | in the face of assaults like uefi and intel boot guard, those gestures are laughable. | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | regulators have failed | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | and human society is failing | Dec 10 02:20 |
| oiaohm | regulators are reactive not proactive most of the time. | Dec 10 02:20 |
| MinceR | yes, and they mostly only react to bribes | Dec 10 02:21 |
| oiaohm | Like the phone chargers at worst point there was over 5000 differnet plugs in use todo something as simple as charge a phone. | Dec 10 02:21 |
| MinceR | and crApple still uses nonstandard plugs | Dec 10 02:22 |
| MinceR | and the EU isn't doing jack shit about that | Dec 10 02:22 |
| MinceR | also, standardizing the plugs doesn't help if warranty only holds if you use the charger supplied by the manufacturer of the device in the first place | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | you still get to keep all your power bricks | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-will-be-forced-to-use-micro-usb-chargers-by-2017-1587862/ | Dec 10 02:23 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Apple will be forced to use micro USB chargers by 2017 | Apple | Geek.com | Dec 10 02:23 | |
| MinceR | only this time it's even more difficult to keep track of which one is supposed to go with which device | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | ooh, 2017 | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be humans by then? | Dec 10 02:23 |
| MinceR | will there still be an EU by then? | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Please note what I said about regulators being reactive not proactive. | Dec 10 02:23 |
| oiaohm | Apple is the last hold out not to go unified format. | Dec 10 02:24 |
| oiaohm | I would love to see Apple users if the EU makes it offence to have a phone without USB changing. | Dec 10 02:24 |
| MinceR | and yet i have yet to see crApple being punished for shitting on EU law | Dec 10 02:24 |
| oiaohm | Its not like Apple was not given enough time to be conforming. | Dec 10 02:24 |
| MinceR | then again, if orban and his buddies are of any indication, the EU is run by crApple fanboys | Dec 10 02:25 |
| MinceR | so crApple will get away with it forever | Dec 10 02:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: laws are also reactive not proactive normally due to legal constructs requiring a delay before being applied. | Dec 10 02:25 |
| MinceR | at least in the EPP, showing off wealth and belonging to the cult by spending taxpayer's money on crApple crap is the hip thing | Dec 10 02:26 |
| oiaohm | Apple plan to avoid usb port on their device is to be wireless by 2017 | Dec 10 02:26 |
| MinceR | they could sell inert blocks of glass | Dec 10 02:27 |
| MinceR | that way they won't need power or communication | Dec 10 02:27 |
| MinceR | and the fanboys will still love it as long as it comes from crApple | Dec 10 02:27 |
| oiaohm | Like the one where Apple is selling a warntary that they are legally required to provide free of charge by law in the EU. | Dec 10 02:28 |
| oiaohm | http://www.geek.com/apple/belgium-isps-may-be-forced-to-block-access-to-apples-website-and-services-1586697/ | Dec 10 02:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Belgium ISPs may be forced to block access to Apple’s website and services | Apple | Geek.com [ http://ur1.ca/oc4ks ] | Dec 10 02:29 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I would prefer that we don't need to use the regulators to deal with these problems. But I don't see Microsoft Apple or ODM behaving without at least 1 of the regulators mandating proper rights to consumers. | Dec 10 02:30 |
| MinceR | i don't see how these problems will be solved, with or without regulators | Dec 10 02:32 |
| MinceR | at least as long as the regulators are in the pockets of those whom they're supposed to regulate | Dec 10 02:32 |
| msb_ | Apple's website should be blocked until it restores those pictures (or was it a _video_) of the naked guy in bed having sex with the expensive cylindrical Mac. | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | the ButtPlug Pro? | Dec 10 02:35 |
| msb_ | Damn I wish I had saved that! | Dec 10 02:35 |
| msb_ | Sounds about right. | Dec 10 02:35 |
| cubexyz | you guys don't buy any apple stuff anyway :) | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | has archive.org saved it? | Dec 10 02:35 |
| cubexyz | I'm positive MinceR doesn't at least | Dec 10 02:35 |
| MinceR | and you're right | Dec 10 02:36 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 10 10:04:32 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 10 10:04:55 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 10 10:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674886622459133954 | Dec 10 10:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Complete bullshit @schestowitz https://t.co/qMKF9CAa5Q | Dec 10 10:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.businessinsider.com | Microsoft wants to train you to Linux - Business Insider | Dec 10 10:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6903957 | Dec 10 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The @linuxfoundation won't allow #torvalds to criticise #microsoft for much longer http://betanews.com/2015/12/09/microsoft-linux-foundation-azure-certification/ http://www.networkworld.com/article/3013473/microsoft-subnet/microsoft-to-offer-a-linux-based-cert-for-azure-admins.html | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> betanews.com | Microsoft partners with The Linux Foundation for 'Linux on Azure' certification | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | "That they admitted defeat…" | Dec 10 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.networkworld.com | Microsoft to offer a Linux-based cert for Azure admins | Network World | Dec 10 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | Would you personally interpret it that way? | Dec 10 10:16 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896452783579141 | Dec 10 10:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita https://t.co/KADdN5xXBf | Dec 10 10:24 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo protest in less than an hour. Nice and sunny in #munich https://t.co/ycP7YKswro | Dec 10 10:24 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896876597039105 | Dec 10 10:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @GreyBservices @schestowitz @FOSSpatents What a scandal! EPO staff should not contact anyone without permission! | Dec 10 10:25 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: not exactly Microsoft profiting from Linux Foundations money making game. So torvalds will still criticise Microsoft for a while yet. | Dec 10 10:25 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AdV007/status/674899793097957376 | Dec 10 10:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AdV007: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Yup: #FBI - killing US tech industry for your safety! #backdoor #encryption | Dec 10 10:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674900306505760768 | Dec 10 10:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents doesnt this sound like that they want to regulate personal lives of their staff? | Dec 10 10:37 | |
| schestowitz | Even illness (or #epo staff) is not allowed, or at least strongly discouraged http://techrights.org/2015/12/06/epo-sick-leave-gaming/ | Dec 10 10:38 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc5f5 ] | Dec 10 10:38 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901256368988160 | Dec 10 10:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 10:44 | |
| schestowitz | " I first read that as Kardashians. Kazakstan, not much better." | Dec 10 10:44 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901321837887488 | Dec 10 10:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 10 10:44 | |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: you have to remember when Linus gave the finger to Nvidia 1 it was at a Nvidia sponsered event 2 Nvidia was/and still is chipping into the Linux foundation. | Dec 10 10:49 |
| schestowitz | > old: | Dec 10 10:50 |
| schestowitz | > https://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/kopimism-level-1-the-creation/ | Dec 10 10:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-christianengstrom.wordpress.com | A Kopimist Gospel — Book 1: The Creation | Christian Engström, Pirat | Dec 10 10:50 | |
| schestowitz | Are people taking this seriously? IMHO as self-discrediting as "Church of emacs/gnu" | Dec 10 10:50 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903117402497024 | Dec 10 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @schestowitz @KrapulaPhD @FOSSpatents great post Dr. Roy. Kind of amazed or surprised or whatever you call it! | Dec 10 10:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903412174024704 | Dec 10 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents pretty much right Krapula. EPO is behaving like a spy agency. | Dec 10 10:51 | |
| schestowitz | "Worse actually, bleh.:/" | Dec 10 10:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674904367108128768 | Dec 10 10:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Well technically you can be poor and still find some of the best curry spices for cheap. Just know where to look. | Dec 10 10:52 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 10:54 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ppetrovdotnet/status/674905245940588544 | Dec 10 11:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ppetrovdotnet: Https is not enough! Http is old, too old! https://t.co/4WeWp15Te7 | Dec 10 11:03 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "I used to work for a company I'm sure you have heard of -- Two letters, starts with a G." https://t.co/cmjQAhkHRM #ge | Dec 10 11:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674905514661257216 | Dec 10 11:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita @POLITICOEurope https://t.co/0oATTOYi2V | Dec 10 11:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo staff protest "Thursday 10 December, starting from the Pschorrhöfe building at 12h." 5 minutes from now https://t.co/4DQH4gIQPY #suepo | Dec 10 11:04 | |
| *Omega has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 10 12:55 | |
| *Omega (~Omega@folf.powered.technology) has joined #techrights | Dec 10 12:57 | |
| MinceR | 065512 < oiaohm> MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started. Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives. Yes we have to change away from old school MBR | Dec 10 14:08 |
| MinceR | and BIOS because new items had outgrown them. Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in | Dec 10 14:08 |
| MinceR | even a 4kb MBR. | Dec 10 14:08 |
| MinceR | yet another poor excuse | Dec 10 14:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: No its not a poor excuse | Dec 10 14:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: The reality is the time of the old BIOS design is over. | Dec 10 14:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: using 4kb size breaks lot of the older OS as well. | Dec 10 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Even using the 2KB solution has problems. | Dec 10 14:16 |
| MinceR | apparently the time of the general purpose computer is over as well | Dec 10 14:16 |
| MinceR | and the time of computers that do what the user/owner wants | Dec 10 14:16 |
| oiaohm | Just because the time of PC BIOS is over does not mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Of the idea of general purpose computer. | Dec 10 14:17 |
| MinceR | well, according to you, storage devices getting bigger is sufficient justification for uefi | Dec 10 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Does mean there is a battle to be fort. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| MinceR | from which it follows that bigger storage devices mean that computers doing what the user wants is over. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Not at all. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| MinceR | it's absurd, but it's what you said | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | I said EFI was started because of that problem. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Or course coreboot also addresses the problem. | Dec 10 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Trying to say with BIOS is just going to become more and more not workable. | Dec 10 14:19 |
| oiaohm | The fixes to extend BIOS will break it compadiblity with older OS as well. | Dec 10 14:20 |
| MinceR | it's impossible to fit the bootloader in the first 2TB of the drive? i doubt that. | Dec 10 14:21 |
| MinceR | if all else fails, they could just add a replaceable flash memory card on the mainboard to hold some of the boot code | Dec 10 14:21 |
| oiaohm | It is as the drives get bigger and you are needing to use 32 bit modes to access stuff. | Dec 10 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Basically you out grow what you can do in a single sector. | Dec 10 14:22 |
| MinceR | we already had to fit stuff in the first whatever bytes of the HDD and it worked | Dec 10 14:23 |
| oiaohm | The reality for a long time the complete loader has not fitted in the MBR. | Dec 10 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Instead it been a stub loader. | Dec 10 14:24 |
| oiaohm | Something like coreboot loading directly loading the loader could be anywere in a on a PB or larger drive. | Dec 10 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Or in a motherboard flash device. | Dec 10 14:29 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: coreboot obeys doing what the user wants as long as user can in fact install it. | Dec 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Way more than BIOS does. | Dec 10 14:30 |
| oiaohm | So someone making arguement for boot guard and other things opened up path for coreboot makes sense. | Dec 10 14:31 |
| MinceR | and the stub loader still fits there | Dec 10 14:31 |
| oiaohm | EFI gone with put all loaders in a 1 partition somewhere on drive. Key words somewhere on drive. | Dec 10 14:32 |
| oiaohm | So you can technically put EFI loader partition after any ammount of space. | Dec 10 14:32 |
| MinceR | and by doing so it sets not only the filesystem but also the partitioning scheme in stone | Dec 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | But a lot of implementations of UEFI and EFI are broekan. | Dec 10 14:33 |
| MinceR | not caring about the future is the way of the future! | Dec 10 14:33 |
| oiaohm | Staying with BIOS sets using MBR limitations. | Dec 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Chosing coreboot would be about choosing to be able to use what ever partition scheme you like. | Dec 10 14:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but you have been arguement why cannot we stay with BIOS. The reality is your points against EFI a lot of them are a reason not to stay with BIOS. | Dec 10 14:36 |
| oiaohm | The time of bios is over. The time to fight for freedom in the it replacement. Preferably to have more freedom than we already had. | Dec 10 14:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: like it or not I do care about the future and this is why I say the time of BIOS is over. No point keeping on attempting to prop a dead horse and pretending its a live horse. | Dec 10 14:39 |
| MinceR | it's still better than uefi | Dec 10 14:40 |
| MinceR | making things even worse is not a solution | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | UEFI is techically a live horse in the race. | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | So like or not it techically can win. | Dec 10 14:40 |
| MinceR | technically uefi is the end of the PC | Dec 10 14:40 |
| oiaohm | No uefi as it developed has become less and less restrictive in implementations. | Dec 10 14:41 |
| MinceR | because only allowing winblows to be booted is "less restrictive"? | Dec 10 14:41 |
| oiaohm | That is gone from modern forms where you can replace the secureboot keys. | Dec 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | This is also your problem MinceR you arguements don't keep up with the current state of UEFI. | Dec 10 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Could with enough presume UEFI boot secuirty be lighted even more yes it could. | Dec 10 14:43 |
| oiaohm | prsume/ pressure | Dec 10 14:44 |
| MinceR | your problem is that you ignore m$'s agenda and what they're doing about it | Dec 10 14:47 |
| oiaohm | This is one of your fall back arugments and normally a sign that you have not done your homework. | Dec 10 14:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: can you explain why newer forms UEFI standard allows loaders be multi signed. One combination signed by Microsoft and signed by your own company/distrobution | Dec 10 14:50 |
| oiaohm | This does not match to following Microsoft agenda. | Dec 10 14:51 |
| MinceR | apparently ignoring m$'s logo requirements was my homework | Dec 10 14:51 |
| MinceR | good to know | Dec 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | To be correct you did not read the MS Logo requirements completely either. | Dec 10 14:51 |
| oiaohm | It mandates that the UEFI implmentation conforms the most modern form. | Dec 10 14:52 |
| oiaohm | The form that makes it possible to strip the MS KEK out. | Dec 10 14:52 |
| MinceR | what about ARM? | Dec 10 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Even on ARM microsoft mandates the most current version but there has not been as far as a know any new Windows 10 devices using UEFI. | Dec 10 14:53 |
| oiaohm | The older MS Logo requirements mandated older UEFI those did not mandate that you could change the PK so you could be locked out. | Dec 10 14:54 |
| oiaohm | So MinceR things are not perfectly going in Microsoft favour either. | Dec 10 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Only major mother of issue I can see in current day UEFI for Microsoft favor is the possiblity of installing firmware updates reseting the PK/KEK settings. Reason why I am not exactly happen the section of UEFI covering firmware updating not giving users enough control. | Dec 10 14:58 |
| oiaohm | UEFI firmware update also under current UEFI design ship out based on platform MinceR. Now that is a true issue that could undermine the idea of a general computer than you can boot any OS. | Dec 10 15:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are spending so much time focused on secureboot that you have missed the truly leathal problem. | Dec 10 15:01 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: The most sick arguement for why end users were not to be given PK and KEK setting rights came from HP not Microsoft. The arguement was cost. That right HP wanted to keep the number of KEK enteries to a bare min so the could ship motherboard with the smallest flash possible. | Dec 10 15:15 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674969986247561216 | Dec 10 15:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz No, there are actually such things as unpaid Microsoft fanboys. | Dec 10 15:16 | |
| schestowitz | Well, if they're paid by Microsoft, I wouldn't call them "fans" | Dec 10 15:17 |
| oiaohm | Yep the term shills is used for those that a paid. | Dec 10 15:17 |
| oiaohm | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill Yes it an official employment title in some places. | Dec 10 15:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 10 15:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674971533916377088 | Dec 10 15:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Some of them are. But then again I have met people who supported Microsoft. And it actually cost them money. | Dec 10 15:19 | |
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| MinceR | oiaohm: you know the relationship between hp and m$, right? | Dec 10 15:45 |
| schestowitz | it's not as strong as the one with Dell | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | All companies in tech are connected to Microsoft | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | EVen non-tech, if they use Windows | Dec 10 15:46 |
| schestowitz | HP isn't among the worst, even though many execs there came from Microsoft | Dec 10 15:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: HP was even saying that Microsoft not to have a KEK for OS and KEK for UEFI drivers instead just have one. It was a good mailing list read as you saw HP and Microsoft developers spitting chips at each other. | Dec 10 15:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes there is a releationship but ODM cost saving attempts from HP will see HP fight with Microsoft. | Dec 10 15:57 |
| MinceR | not the attempts to turn our computers into garbage, though | Dec 10 16:00 |
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| oiaohm | MinceR: supporting only 1 OS per model would make ODM support staff be able to be cheaper and dumber. | Dec 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the issue people updatting Windows 7 and 8.1 laptops/computer to Windows 10 are running into as well. | Dec 10 16:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Microsoft want people only to run Microsoft OSs. Lot of ODM would perfer us to only run 1 OS. | Dec 10 16:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYb97uKCldI good watch. This is from 2014. Attackers do want to get into bios. | Dec 10 16:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | DEF CON 22 Summary of Attacks Against BIOS and Secure Boot - YouTube | Dec 10 16:20 | |
| schestowitz | "if you have a wikidot login, I can invite you to the epomustgo website" | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | "there are still some relevant infos on there" | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | To read or to write? I wouldn't want to go with the words "epomustgo" because we want only the management to go | Dec 10 16:48 |
| schestowitz | International and | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | unions | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | federations | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | EPSU and FNV | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | for sending a | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | letter to the Dutch | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Prime Minister Mr | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Rutte denouncing | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | the abuse of | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | immunity by the | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | EPO; | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | Dutch Parliament | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | (Tweede Kamer) | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | for recently voting | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | a | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | motion | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | concerning | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | the | Dec 10 16:53 |
| schestowitz | adherence by the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | European Patent | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | Organisation to | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | international | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | legislation. | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | 23 European and | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | 6 Dutch MPs for | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | continuing to ask | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | questions to the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | EU Commission | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | and to the Dutch | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | government | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | concerning the | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | current crisis at | Dec 10 16:54 |
| schestowitz | the EPO. | Dec 10 16:54 |
| MinceR | just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 16:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: unfortunately EPO is the worst design ever. EPO management gets to directly put forwards changes to the legislation they have to follow. | Dec 10 16:58 |
| MinceR | tell schestowitz that :> | Dec 10 16:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so changing the management could start fixing the legislation. | Dec 10 16:58 |
| oiaohm | But I would not hold out hope. | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | what about the legislation that is the basis for the existence of the epo? | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | unitary patent bullshit, iirc | Dec 10 16:59 |
| MinceR | also, even if the management could fix it in a dictatorial sort of way, it would be better to do so democratically, with clueful representative | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | unfortunately, we don't have those either | Dec 10 17:00 |
| oiaohm | Unitary patent bull crap was legislation was preposed by the EPO in the first place. The EPO was first founded to draft the rules for patents in the EU. | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | all we have is a huge hairball of corruption and the EPP | Dec 10 17:00 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 10 17:00 |
| oiaohm | So EPO is the nightmare of regulator and rule writer as the one group. | Dec 10 17:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Ideal should be cut EPO in two to start off with. | Dec 10 17:02 |
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| schestowitz | [16:55] <MinceR> just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based on | Dec 10 17:57 |
| schestowitz | EPO management breaks its own rules | Dec 10 17:57 |
| schestowitz | !google epo illegal judge suspension | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - The 'Sherlocks' of EPO/Spin-Doctoring Pretend That All of the EPO's ... | http://techrights.org/2015/10/16/crushing-dissent-at-epo/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - New Heise Article Makes It Clear That 'Nazi'-Themed Accusations ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/24/new-heise-article-makes-it-clear-that-nazi-themed-accusations-against-the-suspended-board-judge-were-insufficiently-substantiated/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - The Bogus Narrative Floated by EPO Management: Our Judges and ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/23/epo-scapegoat-tactics/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Exclusive: The Enlarged Board of Appeal Complains About ... | http://techrights.org/2014/12/09/exclusive-eboa/ | Dec 10 17:57 |
| MinceR | schestowitz: do they get punished for it? | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | they can break their own rules and nobody seems to enforce these | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: no | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | that's the point | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | why not? | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | they ignore the courts | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | see, the problem is that they get to ignore the courts | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | and their own rules | Dec 10 17:58 |
| MinceR | eponia | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | yeah | Dec 10 17:58 |
| schestowitz | it wasn't this bad in the past | Dec 10 17:59 |
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| schestowitz | someone sent me docs of staff reps | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | (not from them, not with consent...) | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | >> Can you send these over? | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > I guess that they would want it that way, even though any further | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > publication would quite probably worsen their situation. I think it | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > would be better if you QUOTED selected portions from the documents, | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > rather than dumping all documents online. I can supply you with OCRd | Dec 10 19:45 |
| schestowitz | > versions if you wish. | Dec 10 19:45 |
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| Really | "In the future we’ll show how the EPO even takes advantage of cancer in the family. " Really? And then you are surprised that the BBC Journalist does not respond? Do you really think they could cite your blog when you also write this crap? C'mon ... | Dec 10 21:09 |
| *Really has quit () | Dec 10 21:14 | |
| schestowitz | he didn't even wait until I showed the evidence | Dec 10 21:58 |
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| cubexyz | there isn't "one OS to rule them all" even for ODMs | Dec 10 22:11 |
| cubexyz | clearly chromebooks have sold in the millions | Dec 10 22:11 |
| cubexyz | and there's android of course | Dec 10 22:11 |
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| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675001605499015168 | Dec 11 00:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Please #follow @rights_info - excellent Twitter resource. Just under 10k. Would be great to get it over 10k on this "Human Rights Day". | Dec 11 00:02 | |
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| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 11 10:21:36 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 11 10:21 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 11 10:21 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 11 10:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675260122587930624 | Dec 11 10:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Know anything about the Open Invention Network #OIN? https://t.co/dS5KkyRQ2U cc:@schestowitz #FOSS #OpenSource #GNU/#Linux | Dec 11 10:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.openinventionnetwork.com | Home - Open Invention Network | Dec 11 10:30 | |
| r_schestowitz | I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 10:30 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Sheikh_al_Touar/status/675263079589011456 https://twitter.com/TheJusticeDept/status/672503183697182721 | Dec 11 10:40 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Sheikh_al_Touar: @TheJusticeDept @NewYorkFBI @EDNYnews @IRSnews @LorettaLynch @schestowitz European Patent Office + FIFA = much the same! USA investigations? | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.justice.gov | Sixteen Additional FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy and Corruption | OPA | Department of Justice | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7 | Dec 11 10:40 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675263475707441152 | Dec 11 10:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Alternatives? Unless one has deep pockets…once you start developing a project someone'll want to sue—even to stop it https://t.co/DujumDe4NN | Dec 11 10:41 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT I'm not a big fan | Dec 11 10:41 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 11 10:48 | |
| r_schestowitz | > " The take-home message (once again) is that well-studied, provably | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > secure encryption schemes that achieve strong definitions of security | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > (e.g., authenticated-encryption) are to be preferred to home-brewed | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > encryption schemes." | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177 | Dec 11 10:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-eprint.iacr.org | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/1177 | Dec 11 10:51 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > I expect at a future date a similar report on M$ OpenSSH derivative | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | > since it is also using homespun encryption. | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | Fools will put their private keys on Windows | Dec 11 10:51 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675272871195774976 https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675273006625644545 | Dec 11 11:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I don't seriously turning off the spying features really turns it off. But maybe that's me being a cynic. | Dec 11 11:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Use Media Goblin, it has not Youtube Red. | Dec 11 11:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | ":Nice to see @DavidAllenGreen of @Preiskel mentioned in Private Eye 1407 re his representing @schestowitz (European Patent Office dispute)." | Dec 11 12:11 |
| r_schestowitz | Private Eye (again) | Dec 11 12:11 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675286772776099840 https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675287022194565124 | Dec 11 12:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: I'm currently unable to do this. Can anyone help @schestowitz ? The item is on p.18 of the current Private Eye. https://t.co/0mRxfHrosb | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Blue_Wode can you please take a photo and send to me? | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @schestowitz Unfortunately I can't at the moment, but I've put out a request for help. I'm pretty confident someone will get it for you. :) | Dec 11 12:15 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sean_t_ellis/status/675287851567812608 | Dec 11 12:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJT | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675288074276900864 | Dec 11 12:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @sean_t_ellis Many thanks! @schestowitz | Dec 11 12:22 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidBrooke_IP/status/675290914701602816 | Dec 11 12:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidBrooke_IP: .@PrivateEyeNews has picked up the @WorldIPReview story on the EPO's legal threat levelled against @schestowitz https://t.co/q2BpswFkuL | Dec 11 12:34 | |
| r_schestowitz | techrighjs in leading paper | Dec 11 12:34 |
| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/l4JqUyu.png | Dec 11 12:45 |
| cubexyz | I don't think snickers will put Hitler in their commercials | Dec 11 12:48 |
| cubexyz | just a hunch | Dec 11 12:49 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickers Interesting point is possible that Hitler had a snickers at some point thinking it was in production in 1930 | Dec 11 12:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Snickers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 11 12:59 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675299337346416640 | Dec 11 13:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open Source Owns the Web @schestowitz https://t.co/gVXRcnVBE0 | Dec 11 13:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bsdmag.org | Open Source Owns the Web | BSD MAG | Dec 11 13:06 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675303984429682689 | Dec 11 13:21 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @zoobab @schestowitz This says it all about he journalistic ethics of IAM. | Dec 11 13:21 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309167570247681 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: My work defending @schestowitz against the daft and illiberal legal threat of @EPOorg is featured in p 18 of @PrivateEyeNews | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675309275019943936 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Pic? | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: @zeno001 @schestowitz You can buy it and support great journalism ;-) | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/675310070876491776 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @zeno001 @DavidAllenGreen https://t.co/5X3IYR2XLG | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO Scandals in Private Eye Again | Techrights | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309652196900868 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Some of the correspondence in that case has been posted by @schestowitz at https://t.co/VmvKgi2Hjt You may find it amusing. | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | How the EPO Twisted Defamation Law in a Failed Bid to Silence Techrights | Techrights | Dec 11 13:44 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193 | Dec 11 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675310433948016640 | Dec 11 13:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Damn you for always being right... :-) | Dec 11 13:45 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112 | Dec 11 13:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @schestowitz Thanks! | Dec 11 13:48 | |
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| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 11 18:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 11 18:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 11 18:12 | |
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| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6907052 | Dec 11 20:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for #Ubuntu 16.04 LTS http://news.softpedia.com/news/unity-7-online-search-is-being-dropped-for-ubuntu-16-04-lts-497425.shtml #gnu #linux #canonical | Dec 11 20:19 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for Ubuntu 16.04 LTS [ http://ur1.ca/oc8x7 ] | Dec 11 20:19 | |
| schestowitz | "Finally!" | Dec 11 20:19 |
| schestowitz | "Yes' | Dec 11 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | "YES! :)" | Dec 11 20:35 |
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| Happens | anyone here? | Dec 11 22:24 |
| XRevan86 | Happens: Affirmative. | Dec 11 22:25 |
| Happens | cool | Dec 11 22:25 |
| Happens | Just curious about this site,so I am just exploring. | Dec 11 22:26 |
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| MinceR | http://i.imgur.com/getsunT.jpg | Dec 11 22:30 |
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| Happens_ | Hmm, IRC not practical when browseing in a different tab... At least on this apparatus. | Dec 11 22:31 |
| MinceR | dedicated irc clients tend to work better than web clients | Dec 11 22:31 |
| MinceR | especially weechat and irssi | Dec 11 22:31 |
| Happens_ | iOS on this tablet, possibly this WE. | Dec 11 22:32 |
| *Happens (56552a10@gateway/web/freenode/ip.86.85.42.16) has joined #techrights | Dec 11 22:34 | |
| Happens | Is Dr. Schestowitz always this productive? | Dec 11 22:34 |
| Happens | (also: not going to log in again if I get shot out again - in case that happens I wish you all a fne weekend!) | Dec 11 22:35 |
| Happens | already shot down again? | Dec 11 22:37 |
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| Happens | Okay, have a fine weekend, I might have some time after having skimmed a few more or those articles. | Dec 11 22:38 |
| Happens | Best wishes to all! | Dec 11 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.informationweek.com/cloud/microsoft-red-hat-alliance-shows-growing-cloud-influence/a/d-id/1323013 | Dec 12 00:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.informationweek.com | Microsoft, Red Hat Alliance Shows Growing Cloud Influence - InformationWeek [ http://ur1.ca/oc9bj ] | Dec 12 00:22 | |
| schestowitz | Several other Linux suppliers signed up, though they tended to be the likes of Melco Group, Xandos, Linspire, and LG Electronics. (Image: julos/iStockphoto). It was never clear to me whether they were paying Microsoft royalties or whether Microsoft was " | Dec 12 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Xandros did | Dec 12 00:22 |
| cubexyz | paid microsoft royalties for...? | Dec 12 00:25 |
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| cubexyz | Microsoft itself pays royalties I would imagine | Dec 12 00:36 |
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| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 12 09:00 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 12 09:00 | |
| schestowitz | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-money-motive/ | Dec 12 09:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oca09 ] | Dec 12 09:08 | |
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| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 12 12:10 | |
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