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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: December 6th, 2015-December 12th, 2015

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cubexyzLinux distributors shouldn't need to sign with MicrosoftDec 06 00:00
cubexyzeven on old PDP-11 systems there was a bunch of different operating systemsDec 06 00:07
cubexyzDOS-11, DSM-11, RSX-11, Ultrix, Unix even TRIPOSDec 06 00:09
oiaohmcubexyz: a motherboard having secure boot does not mean it has to contain a Microsoft KEK.Dec 06 00:12
cubexyzI heard that OEMs are fusing SHA256 public keys into the southbridgeDec 06 00:14
oiaohmcubexyz: that is boot guard the firmware protection key.   Not the PK of secureboot.Dec 06 00:16
oiaohmThe PK of secure boot has a built in time expire factor.Dec 06 00:16
oiaohmSo push the computer clock far enough forwards and the installed  PK will fail.Dec 06 00:17
cubexyzthis is why coreboot works on older Thinkpads and outdated intel motherboards but not new onesDec 06 00:20
cubexyzso that is definitely a problemDec 06 00:20
cubexyzI don't want to mess around with PKs, KEKs and other stuff like thatDec 06 00:21
oiaohmTo  truth PK and KEK make sense with the number of boot loader level infections that have existed over the years.Dec 06 00:23
cubexyzno Microsoft bullshit wantedDec 06 00:23
cubexyzI can secure my own BIOSDec 06 00:23
oiaohmPK in most motherboards you are free to swap with you own.Dec 06 00:23
cubexyzI have a programmer, and can check every byte of itDec 06 00:23
oiaohmThen with you own PK you are free to choose if you have Microsoft KEK or Ubuntu or Someone elese.Dec 06 00:24
cubexyzyes, but what if I want Plan 9 or some other obscure OS?Dec 06 00:24
oiaohmcubexyz: No PK and the motherboards by default UEFI design will boot anything.Dec 06 00:24
oiaohmas long as it a EFI loader of course.Dec 06 00:25
oiaohmsecureboot current design can be annoying but not that much of a problem.Dec 06 00:25
oiaohmBoot guard stuff with keys written into fuses that is another matter.Dec 06 00:25
cubexyzI might have to use old hardware in some cases Dec 06 00:26
cubexyzI don't think Plan 9 supports USB keyboard, at least I'm not sureDec 06 00:26
oiaohmcubexyz: boot guard worries me more.Dec 06 00:26
cubexyzitDec 06 00:27
oiaohmLike everything in secureboot in the form of keys ie the PK and KEK you can replace.   So if some attack breaches one of those keys you can remove them from you system.Dec 06 00:27
cubexyzit's not a problem stockpiling old stuff, there must be a million P3 motherboards that no one wantsDec 06 00:27
oiaohmboot guard written into fuses what happens if the signing key gets in the wild.Dec 06 00:27
oiaohmSo you might not be able to change the firmware but some hostile person can.   what fun.Dec 06 00:28
cubexyzwe are dependent on OEMs making motherboards that we likeDec 06 00:28
cubexyzno, the bad guys can't really brick my old computersDec 06 00:29
cubexyzeven if they blanked out the BIOS I am ready :)Dec 06 00:29
cubexyzalso as you pointed out there is Raspberry PI 2Dec 06 00:31
cubexyzI'm sure that does not have secure boot right?Dec 06 00:31
cubexyzI think it uses u-bootDec 06 00:32
oiaohmThis is why I don't fear UEFI secureboot that much.    https://lwn.net/Articles/571031/  People don't know u-boot and other things.Dec 06 00:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Verified U-Boot [LWN.net]Dec 06 00:34
oiaohmYes u-boot you can run into a signed boot problem cubexyzDec 06 00:34
oiaohmWorse u-boot does not have  design to bipass it like UEFI has if you have boot gaurd like stuff protecting u-bootDec 06 00:35
cubexyznot on Raspberry PI thoughDec 06 00:35
oiaohmRaspberry PI CPU does support signed firmware protection.Dec 06 00:36
oiaohmin the 2Dec 06 00:36
oiaohmJust it not enabled.Dec 06 00:36
oiaohmcubexyz: basically a Respbery PI 2 is not that much different to a UEFI motherboard without PK or boot guard enabled even that it has the features.Dec 06 00:37
cubexyzno fans and no heat sinkDec 06 00:40
oiaohmThere are UEFI motherboards without fans or heatsinks.Dec 06 00:41
oiaohmcubexyz: https://wiki.linaro.org/ARM/UEFIDec 06 00:42
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.linaro.org | ARM/UEFI - Linaro WikiDec 06 00:42
oiaohmYep UEFI is on arm as well as x86Dec 06 00:42
cubexyznothing ATX thoughDec 06 00:42
oiaohmI understand the security requirements for boot guard the firmware.Dec 06 00:43
oiaohmWhat I don't understand is why the signing keys could not be placed in a block of flash with a physical write protect switch.Dec 06 00:44
oiaohmThis way if you wanted to you could replace the firmwareDec 06 00:44
cubexyzI can already do that thoughDec 06 00:44
oiaohmblow fuse links to record a signing key has other problems as well.Dec 06 00:45
oiaohmWhat if something blows a few more links.Dec 06 00:45
oiaohmSo this will mean more motherboards in the ruined pile.Dec 06 00:46
oiaohmcubexyz: I have always backed the idea that all firmware should have a write protect switch because users/makers don't update it all the time.Dec 06 00:47
cubexyzI'm pretty sure some motherboards had a jumper for thatDec 06 00:47
cubexyzolder onesDec 06 00:47
oiaohma lot had clear cmos settings jumper.Dec 06 00:48
oiaohmbut not a lock firmware switch.Dec 06 00:48
oiaohmOnly thing I know with lock firmware switchs is chromebooks.Dec 06 00:48
oiaohmThe thing to remeber is groups like the NSA are free to use any method the like to attempt to get there hands on signing half of a public key.Dec 06 00:50
oiaohmOnly way you can be sure you will know about a signing half breach is if you are the one in charge of it.Dec 06 00:51
cubexyzno, I'm sure that ECS motherboards had CLR_CMOS and BIOS_WP jumpersDec 06 00:51
cubexyzso there were 2 jumpers Dec 06 00:51
oiaohmI have never come in contact with an ECS brand motherboard.Dec 06 00:52
cubexyzhttp://www.ecs.com.twDec 06 00:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ecs.com.tw | NO TITLEDec 06 00:52
cubexyzanyway, they exist(ed)Dec 06 00:57
cubexyzmight be a pain finding oneDec 06 00:58
oiaohmcubexyz: interesting brand.   First one I have seen with physicaly switches for power and reset on the motherboard.Dec 06 00:58
cubexyzuseful :)Dec 06 00:58
cubexyzBIOS is also socketedDec 06 01:01
cubexyzbad guy can't do anything to the BIOS without physical accessDec 06 01:03
oiaohmThat is if the bios has a write protect switch.Dec 06 01:05
oiaohmphysical security on computers is still crap.Dec 06 01:05
oiaohmOk physical security for most computer is still crap.Dec 06 01:06
oiaohmsocketed TPM chips are since there is not a unified standard for them.Dec 06 01:06
oiaohmis hell.Dec 06 01:06
cubexyzolder computers had ROMsDec 06 01:06
oiaohmExactlyDec 06 01:07
cubexyzyou had to change the chip to upgrade the BIOS/firmwareDec 06 01:07
oiaohmAttackers had to have physical access to mess with the bios in the time of roms.Dec 06 01:07
oiaohmCome forwards to flash and attacker could in infect the BIOS with a program.Dec 06 01:07
oiaohmAll the boot guard stuff is avoiding the KISS idea.   If physical switch was added most of the boot guard stuff would be pointless.Dec 06 01:08
oiaohmcubexyz:  think about it how often do you change bios settings.   Maybe 1 a year if lucky.Dec 06 01:10
oiaohmFirmware is only really updated 1 or 2 a year.Dec 06 01:10
cubexyzon one computer I changed the settings a lotDec 06 01:11
oiaohmBut you would not call that normal cubexyzDec 06 01:11
cubexyzone machine was for msdos games and had "sound blaser emulation on/off"Dec 06 01:11
cubexyzno, not normalDec 06 01:11
oiaohmFor normal PC the firmware only need to be writeable of a max of 3 days a year.Dec 06 01:11
cubexyzwould BIOS write protect stop user from just changing the settings?Dec 06 01:12
oiaohmDepends where the settings are stored.Dec 06 01:12
oiaohmLike if BIOS and CMOS settings are stored in the same flash chip it could.Dec 06 01:13
oiaohmOf course it would not cost that much more to have a flash chip each for that.Dec 06 01:13
cubexyze.g. my QDI motherboard has BIOS protect in CMOSDec 06 01:13
cubexyzbut I can turn it offDec 06 01:14
cubexyzbut that's different of courseDec 06 01:14
oiaohmYou want physical.Dec 06 01:14
cubexyzrightDec 06 01:14
oiaohmI have software for overwriting CMOS from boot disc.Dec 06 01:14
cubexyzI could also remove the BIOS chip and reprogram itDec 06 01:15
oiaohmOnce attack is physical you are screwed anyhow.Dec 06 01:15
cubexyzyesDec 06 01:15
oiaohmWhy because you can extend the BIOS by what cards have on them that you insert into slots.Dec 06 01:15
oiaohmremove and reprogram bios chip is a lot slower than adding a card.Dec 06 01:16
cubexyzit is, but I glued thumb tacks on mine :)Dec 06 01:16
cubexyzcoreboot stuff you knowDec 06 01:16
cubexyzzif socket would have been a lot better reallyDec 06 01:17
oiaohmI have used a forced boot card before.Dec 06 01:17
cubexyzMSI MS-7067 also has BIOS_WP jumperDec 06 01:18
cubexyzso they did exist, but were uncommonDec 06 01:18
oiaohmcubexyz: a force boot card forces a computer to come up even if it BIOS chip is removed.Dec 06 01:18
cubexyzniftyDec 06 01:18
oiaohmIn fact CPU and bios can be removed.Dec 06 01:19
cubexyzwhere do you get a card like that? And I assume it's PCI?Dec 06 01:19
cubexyzhow would the force boot card know how to initialize memory registers?Dec 06 01:21
oiaohmcubexyz:  you just mentioned why they are a pain and expensive.Dec 06 01:22
oiaohmEach forced boot card matchs to a motherboard or motherboard series.Dec 06 01:22
cubexyzah I seeDec 06 01:22
oiaohmOf course the reason why they can cope with missing cpu is they have a cpu on board.Dec 06 01:23
oiaohmSo they take control of the system from bus side.Dec 06 01:23
oiaohmcubexyz: rapid diagnose for warnarty repairs they exist for.   So no point send out a new motherboard if everything else in the system is bust right.Dec 06 01:24
cubexyzI know about Post cards, but this sounds like something a lot more elaborateDec 06 01:26
oiaohmcubexyz: there are 3 levels.Dec 06 01:28
oiaohmPost cards that just print out information that the system spits out all the time.Dec 06 01:29
oiaohmhttp://www.uxd.com/phdpci2.shtml   Items like this with a light microcontroller that can probe themselves.Dec 06 01:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uxd.com | P.H.D. PCI 2 - Professional Hardware Diagnostics PCIDec 06 01:29
oiaohmthen the fine level what are forced boot cards that bring the system back to life allowing you todo data recovery simply.Dec 06 01:30
oiaohmfine/finalDec 06 01:30
cubexyzlooks expensiveDec 06 01:31
oiaohmNot only looks expensive.Dec 06 01:32
oiaohmphd pci2 is about ~800 USDDec 06 01:32
oiaohmAnd that is cheep compared to a force boot card.Dec 06 01:33
oiaohmcubexyz: forced boot cards start at about 1500 and go up normally you rent them as part of warnaty support agreement.Dec 06 01:34
oiaohmcubexyz: It quite a privilage to get to use a forced boot card.Dec 06 01:36
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MinceRhttps://i.imgur.com/oKS4a0M.jpgDec 06 05:32
MinceR042358 < oiaohm> I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it.   Dec 06 05:32
MinceR                 http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot   Every PK has a expire date.Dec 06 05:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux JournalDec 06 05:32
MinceRlike i said, uefi sucksDec 06 05:32
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oiaohmMinceR: the expire date is a key to bypass UEFI if you cannot access some form of UEFI configuration.   Once PK is expired it like you have deleted the PK key.Dec 06 05:49
oiaohmMinceR: basially UEFI has a designed in backdoor.Dec 06 05:49
oiaohmMinceR: but something like u-boot verified does not have a designed in backdoor.Dec 06 05:49
MinceRcalling uefi "designed" sounds like an overstatementDec 06 05:50
oiaohmMinceR:  The flaw was designed in.   First version of UEFI did not have a PK expire option.Dec 06 05:52
oiaohmNo encryption key should have a unlimited life.   That was forced by NIST requirements.Dec 06 05:54
oiaohmMinceR: like it or not somethings about UEFI were designed/mandated.Dec 06 05:54
MinceRthen booting should not require an encryption keyDec 06 05:55
MinceRwas the ludicrous bloated designed or mandated?Dec 06 05:55
MinceRs/ted/t/Dec 06 05:55
MinceRwas the extreme reliance on m$ formats designed or mandated?Dec 06 05:55
MinceRwas making winblows' idiotic practice of keeping the system clock set to local time (including DST) designed or mandated?Dec 06 05:56
MinceRs/)/& "standard"/Dec 06 05:56
oiaohmNIST is behind the mandation of signed loading.   This is why it appears in u-boot and stack of other solutions as well.Dec 06 05:58
oiaohmMinceR: system clock set to DST goes back to early Unix before MSDos existed.Dec 06 06:00
oiaohmMinceR: so if system clock should be DST, Time Offset or GMT goes back before Microsoft even made it first sale.Dec 06 06:01
MinceRand was fixed before even PCs existedDec 06 06:01
oiaohmNo it was not fixed before PC existed.Dec 06 06:02
MinceRuefi is supposed to be "modern", isn't it?Dec 06 06:02
oiaohmUEFI in fact does not make any choice on what system time should be.Dec 06 06:02
oiaohmMinceR: all Unixs you can choose what ever you wish the system clock is set as.Dec 06 06:03
oiaohmMinceR: also http://superuser.com/questions/482860/does-windows-8-support-utc-as-bios-time  Windows does have means of locking clock to UTC/GMT/DSTDec 06 06:05
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-superuser.com | Does Windows 8 support UTC as BIOS time? - Super UserDec 06 06:05
oiaohmProblem Microsoft makes it a complete pain in the ass to set that is all MinceRDec 06 06:05
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oiaohmMinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap.Dec 06 07:33
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/673490353706704896Dec 06 08:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Точно. В Apple нет ничего передового. Это, действительно, просто очередная религия. https://t.co/EgtJkAUVQIDec 06 08:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #apple is lying about Open Source https://t.co/AoMNLyWREM than again, to many it's a religion, they'll believe anything...Dec 06 08:20
XRevan86Russian? In #techrights? :)Dec 06 08:24
XFaCEXRevan86: it's more likely than you thinkDec 06 08:25
XRevan86XFaCE: Точно.Dec 06 08:25
XFaCEI didn't say I speak russian :PDec 06 08:25
XFaCEdespite some EasternEuro ancestors :PDec 06 08:25
XRevan86XFaCE: "That's right" :)Dec 06 08:31
XFaCE:)Dec 06 08:33
XRevan86"@Zeipt Right. Apple has nothing advanced. It's really just yet another religion."Dec 06 08:40
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oiaohmThe bad news here apple is not exactly lying about open source.Dec 06 08:46
oiaohmPlease remember Apple 1 were kit construction with sample code under unrestricted license.Dec 06 08:46
oiaohmNow has Apple maintained a consistent Open Souce Policy the answer is no. Dec 06 08:47
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oiaohmBasically marketing weasels at work at Apple again using Half truths.    Half truth is yes you are telling the truth but you have omitted key facts that change the complete light of the matter.Dec 06 08:49
A_FriendSuddenly a lot of comments pro-management are appearing at the Dec 06 08:50
A_FriendIPKat. The media strstegy is working.Dec 06 08:51
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schestowitzI saw thatDec 06 09:07
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673502715620794368Dec 06 09:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz I used to be that guy in say 04/05. PowerBook and an iPod. Although then they were really good. Standard have dropped.Dec 06 09:09
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502891232088064  https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502957854420992 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673503022748704768Dec 06 09:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz this, is pure bullshit. a) microsoft's code in upstream openssh goes through the same reviews as anyone else.Dec 06 09:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz the money means _nothing_ as far as code review goesDec 06 09:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz and, it wasn't anywhere near $1mil.Dec 06 09:10
schestowitzMicrosoft adds blobsDec 06 09:10
schestowitzI didn't say code reviews are affectedDec 06 09:11
schestowitzred herringDec 06 09:11
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/phessler/status/673504868838035456Dec 06 09:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz blobs are not accepted in upstream openssh'd codebase.Dec 06 09:11
schestowitzMicrosoft adds themDec 06 09:11
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/673505293167255552Dec 06 09:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I have to wonder if the are legal/contractual elements at play here, or if it is just all greed...Dec 06 09:13
oiaohmschestowitz: I have seen no openssh blobs from Microsoft.Dec 06 09:15
schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/62700d807d0e01339da8060714e07a3aDec 06 09:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post?Dec 06 09:15
XFaCEoiaohm: well it wouldn't be that obviousDec 06 09:16
XFaCEHERE IS THE COMMIT OF PROPRIETARY CRAP THAT MICROSOFT HAS ADDEDDec 06 09:16
XFaCEno, more likely it would be code to facilitate proprietary blobs that Microsoft adds later in their bundled opensshDec 06 09:16
oiaohmXFaCE: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH  This is the Microsoft openssh code base.Dec 06 09:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH · GitHubDec 06 09:19
oiaohmXFaCE: and then you can run the following processes to compare the binary to the source code http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/02/detecting-source-code-re-use-through-binary-analysis-hybrid-approachDec 06 09:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.forensicmag.com | Detecting Source Code Re-Use through a Binary Analysis Hybrid ApproachDec 06 09:20
XFaCEoiaohm: have you done this yourself?Dec 06 09:21
oiaohmXFaCE: at this stage I have not seen anything out of place why if there is something out of place I want to here to I can work out how I missed it.Dec 06 09:21
XFaCEok, so you did this comparison program yourself?Dec 06 09:22
oiaohmXFaCE: I run a light level compare looking at basic flow and I know others who run deeper.   Basically I have no reports of anything hidden and nothing I have done myself suggest anything hidden.Dec 06 09:25
XFaCEthank you for answering the questionDec 06 09:25
oiaohmIf there is some report of Microsoft OpenSSL having some hidden extras I want to see it.Dec 06 09:25
oiaohmThere is a possiblity that someone missed the Microsoft Win32-OpenSSH on github.Dec 06 09:26
oiaohmIf you compare to upstream OpenSSH and Microsoft OpenSSH there are incompadiblities.Dec 06 09:26
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673507534318133249Dec 06 09:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I always think of the Open University TM282 mathematical modeling cycle when I see that. @schestowitz https://t.co/nfbhNAj99bDec 06 09:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> msds.open.ac.uk | MST210 - Mathematical methods, models and modelling - Open University CourseDec 06 09:27
oiaohmXFaCE: https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html  openssh is clean code base for reproducible build.   Unfortunately microsoft programs 1 ) don't come with complier information they were cleanly built with 2) Microsoft complier will optimise slightly differently each time it built. Dec 06 09:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html )Dec 06 09:33
oiaohmXFaCE: Yes detecting blobs in Microsoft built stuff is not a walk in park why you want to hear from anyone who does it.Dec 06 09:33
XFaCEoiaohm: "why you want to hear from anyone who does it." - I obviously do, hence why I'm asking you :PDec 06 11:00
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DGrantGibson/status/673533706393391105Dec 06 11:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DGrantGibson: Very revealing article on pesticides by top scientist. A must read. #90DayTidy https://t.co/fMXWzq3UaFDec 06 11:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: This Scientist Uncovered Problems With Pesticides. Then the Government Started to Make His Life Miserable. https://t.co/M6RdjPjF6pDec 06 11:16
oiaohmXFaCE: problem is even for a person like me even if appears clean to me I could have missed something.   The lack of reproducible build with MS Compliers make life hard.Dec 06 11:24
XFaCEoiaohm: isn't this basically the consequence of the compiler paradox?Dec 06 11:30
oiaohmXFaCE: no its not.  Debian project has proven with gcc its possible to produce reproducible builds.Dec 06 11:33
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673536885747294209Dec 06 11:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @AltalexNews @byoblu @altalex_eu @Serv_Pubblico @reportrai3 @teuthorn @t_montinari @LaGabbiaTw @Montecitorio https://t.co/TtB7BnMzanDec 06 11:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents More Than 2,000 People,Including Directors, Said to Have Protested in Munich (About HALF of #EPO Staff) https://t.co/LEveBH9EPjDec 06 11:34
oiaohmXFaCE: The catch is reproducible builds need very exact information about the complier used.   Like exactly what patches are applied.Dec 06 11:35
oiaohmXFaCE: basically the compiler paradox argument turns not to hold water.Dec 06 11:37
oiaohmXFaCE: of course a few things the coder in their source code can do to make binary not 100 percent identical each time.    But once you know what they are you can build expection profile for it.Dec 06 11:39
schestowitzMS adds blobsDec 06 12:19
schestowitzit's stated they won't use the standard ciphersDec 06 12:20
schestowitzand theirs are secretDec 06 12:20
schestowitzAlso, we know they have back doors, they'd not even deny itDec 06 12:20
schestowitzprobably more like "no comment"Dec 06 12:20
schestowitzI don't want to interact with an SSH node that runs on WindowsDec 06 12:20
schestowitzI won't trust itDec 06 12:20
schestowitzI wrote a whole article about key hostingDec 06 12:20
schestowitzlike some sysadmins with Windows at work (not their choice) putting private keys on WindowsDec 06 12:21
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/6735534407784038407Dec 06 12:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID.Dec 06 12:24
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/673553440778403840Dec 06 12:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jrobertson: #reality2015 #fakery #surveillance #apps https://t.co/jFekdsIZHvDec 06 12:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: A lot of so-called 'apps' these days (usually a byword for malware) harvest everything on a device, broadcast to mother ship for bulk SALE!Dec 06 12:24
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schestowitz>>> Another week has passed.  Any word from FSF or, more importantly, fromDec 06 12:41
schestowitz>>> >> Red Hat?Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > yes, I was going to write about it today, Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz> Excellent.Dec 06 12:41
schestowitzIt's published now and it convinced me to move on and not persist with it...Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > but 2 hours just wastedDec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > blocking effective DDOS attack from Baidu, so might not have time...Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz>> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/82909Dec 06 12:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Baidu Stages De Facto DDOS Attacks (Updated) | Tux MachinesDec 06 12:41
schestowitz> Dec 06 12:41
schestowitz> Ok.  Sorry to hear that.  At least the source is identified.  I see whenDec 06 12:41
schestowitz> pruning the spam false negatives [1] that the incoming requests areDec 06 12:41
schestowitz> still misidentified as the proxy.  If you put one of those modules, rpafDec 06 12:41
schestowitz> or mod_remoteip, it would be possible for Apache to block the offendingDec 06 12:41
schestowitz> hosts and not waste cycles serving them.Dec 06 12:41
schestowitzThe DDOS issue isn't as bad now as it was last week. I also managed to reduce some Drupal related spam, but Drupal is less usable for me now (wasted hours in vain trying to fix it, eventually found a workaround).Dec 06 12:41
schestowitzI don't care much for web stats (waste of time better spent writing articles), so rpaf not a priority for this particular reason...Dec 06 12:41
schestowitzPS - was thinking about going HTTPS recently...Dec 06 12:41
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/tzoannop/status/673585987973488640Dec 06 14:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tzoannop: Είπαμε. Δημοκρατικότατη η Ευρώπη. https://t.co/sniKuRIrdRDec 06 14:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents Suppression of Voices Critical of the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/Hgjqs24dPXDec 06 14:47
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sebsebseb Dec 06 15:23
schestowitzheyDec 06 15:25
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cubexyzI think it's very telling that Ron Minnich, a coreboot programmer and Cory Doctorow who is a digital rights activist both have criticized EFIDec 06 15:52
cubexyz"EFI is an attempt to remove the ability of the user to truly control the computer"Dec 06 15:53
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cubexyz"Windows 10 will allow OEMs to not offer the ability to disable secure boot on x86 systems"Dec 06 15:56
cubexyzinteresting phraseology... Dec 06 15:56
cubexyzwhy in the world would the motherboard manufacturers allow Microsoft to call the shots?Dec 06 15:57
cubexyzhttp://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20121126#qaDec 06 16:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-distrowatch.com | DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.Dec 06 16:13
cubexyzalso remember... you go to the store to buy a motherboard... it may not say anything about secure boot on the boxDec 06 16:15
cubexyzhttps://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.htmlDec 06 16:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html )Dec 06 16:17
cubexyzNSA -> backdoors -> firmware binary blobs == no freedomDec 06 16:21
cubexyzhttp://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statementDec 06 16:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fsf.org | Stand up for your freedom to install free software — Free Software Foundation — working together for free softwareDec 06 16:34
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MinceR133353 < oiaohm> MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap.Dec 06 17:27
MinceRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#ServicesDec 06 17:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 17:27
MinceRyet bios still doesn't encourage winblows-type braindeadness, as you can seeDec 06 17:27
cubexyzBIOS actually predates windowsDec 06 17:33
cubexyzBIOS even predates MicrosoftDec 06 17:33
cubexyzMinceR, unfortunately except for the very first version of BIOS for the IBM PC (used intel software) most BIOSes were generated with Microsoft AssemblerDec 06 17:34
cubexyzUEFI is merely the next level of Microsoft controlDec 06 17:34
cubexyzthey already had a lot of influence, as you can see from the BIOS source code that is floating aroundDec 06 17:35
cubexyzwe need the BIOS for warm booting and various other thingsDec 06 17:36
cubexyzsetting keyboard speed... and a ton of other things people never think aboutDec 06 17:36
cubexyzthe wikipedia article on BIOS is not very goodDec 06 17:38
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639118220447744  https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639451499896832Dec 06 18:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: When I was writing about patent trolls for magazines there was plenty of material @schestowitz Then I nearly got shot in Texas.Dec 06 18:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: By a patent troll @schestowitz Whilst I was interviewing him with his permission. Turns out U.S. Gov didn't like him.Dec 06 18:22
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/VerityPlayer/status/673643538459066368Dec 06 18:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@VerityPlayer: Like something out of a (very) black comedy... https://t.co/jk7ePMSumEDec 06 18:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @glynmoody #EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/lvuIRXWQieDec 06 18:22
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929Dec 06 18:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Ticker symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street Crash of 1929 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:50
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_StreetDec 06 18:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:51
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Stock_ExchangeDec 06 18:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | New York Stock Exchange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:51
schestowitzlooking for images for epo article..Dec 06 18:51
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NY_stock_exchange_traders_floor_LC-U9-10548-6.jpgDec 06 18:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NY stock exchange traders floor LC-U9-10548-6.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:52
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-125_Crew_Visits_the_Stock_Exchange.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYSE_opening_bell.jpgDec 06 18:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:STS-125 Crew Visits the Stock Exchange.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NYSE opening bell.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 18:53
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oiaohmMinceR: sorry to say BIOS has a stack of hidden services to emulate BIOS int calls.    So yes BIOS was already infected with the brain deadness.Dec 06 19:38
oiaohmcubexyz: technically we don't need bios most of the time.  u-boot start  on arm hardware there is no BIOS.    Seabios and the like is usable inside Xen and other hypervisors running on UEFI or u-boot so legacy OS support does not need to be in core firmware.Dec 06 19:40
cubexyzyou still need it to get things startedDec 06 19:41
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/coreboot-serial-output.txtDec 06 19:42
cubexyzcoreboot does a ton of stuffDec 06 19:42
cubexyzyou definitely need it for proper warm bootDec 06 19:42
cubexyzthe fact that we don't have BIOS source code (mostly) is a huge problemDec 06 19:43
cubexyzthe keyboard stuff has to be initializedDec 06 19:48
cubexyzall this is largely invisible to the user but it's necessaryDec 06 19:49
cubexyzobviously it has to boot the main OS from CD-ROM or hard drive or even USB driveDec 06 19:50
cubexyzI think seabios is necessary for FreeDOS or 16-bit OSDec 06 19:50
oiaohmcubexyz: problem here is form something like a Linux kernel BIOS is more an annoyance as when it starts it reinits almost everything anyhow so its in a known state.Dec 06 19:52
cubexyzit's utterly necessary :)Dec 06 19:53
cubexyzand people aren't just booting Linux but a whole range of operating systemsDec 06 19:53
cubexyzLinux can't run without itDec 06 19:55
oiaohmcubexyz:  http://www.seabios.org/Releases  read down  --Initial support for using SeaBIOS as a UEFI Compatibility Support Module (CSM)--Dec 06 19:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.seabios.org | Releases - SeaBIOSDec 06 19:55
oiaohmcubexyz: sorry Linux can run without a BIOS image.Dec 06 19:55
oiaohmcubexyz: it is possible to put Linux kernel straight into x86 firmware.Dec 06 19:56
cubexyztake your BIOS chip out and see what happensDec 06 19:56
oiaohmcubexyz: remove BIOS chip insert kernel containing chip configured for same hardware.Dec 06 19:56
cubexyzthat's just adding a kernel to the BIOSDec 06 19:57
oiaohmNo BIOS is a particular thing.Dec 06 19:57
oiaohmcubexyz: Basic Input/Output System is what BIOS stands for.Dec 06 19:58
oiaohmLinux kernel does not need BIOS to set up keyboard mouse screen....  As Linux kernel already does that stuff.Dec 06 19:58
oiaohmAll it need is a firmware that inits the hardware for operation.Dec 06 19:58
oiaohmcubexyz: coreboot subloads items like seabios to provide BIOS compadiblity for older OSs.    Yes it possible to subload on EUFI as well.Dec 06 20:00
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cubexyzuh, the BIOS has to boot the OSDec 06 20:01
cubexyzfrom some deviceDec 06 20:01
oiaohmNo a loader has to bring OS from device.   Coreboot and u-boot are technically not BIOS.Dec 06 20:02
cubexyzwell coreboot replaces the proprietary firmware, what else would you call it?Dec 06 20:04
oiaohmcubexyz: coreboot is a boot firmware.   The project was called LinuxBIOS until someone pointed out that to be a BIOS you had to support 16 bit crap.Dec 06 20:06
cubexyzit's not crap oiaohm Dec 06 20:06
cubexyzI still use FreeDOSDec 06 20:07
cubexyzit's just real mode, a mode the CPU usesDec 06 20:07
oiaohmInit up 16 bit wrapper interfaces to 32-64 bit hardware ends up using SMM a lot.Dec 06 20:07
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cubexyzthe real crap is secure boot, not real modeDec 06 20:08
oiaohmO god you don't get it.Dec 06 20:08
oiaohmA modern x86 cpu does not start in real mode.    Real mode is a fiction created by configuing the memory allocation tables.Dec 06 20:09
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cubexyzhow modern are we talking about?Dec 06 20:09
oiaohmcubexyz: pent 4Dec 06 20:09
cubexyzwell, don't you have computers older than that? :)Dec 06 20:09
cubexyzI sure doDec 06 20:10
oiaohmI still have a Pent 1 around.Dec 06 20:10
cubexyzok, so P4 or newer you have a pointDec 06 20:10
oiaohmSeabios and the like loading under UEFI sets real mode emulation stuff up.Dec 06 20:10
cubexyzmy point is there are millions of older computers that use real modeDec 06 20:10
oiaohmbasically UEFI does not block using real mode designed OS.Dec 06 20:11
oiaohmUEFI does not force more moden OSs to have to put up with the emulation for them.Dec 06 20:11
cubexyzbut you would have to at least turn off secure boot right?Dec 06 20:11
cubexyzjust pointing out that your choices are diminishingDec 06 20:13
oiaohmcubexyz: the answer is no.Dec 06 20:14
oiaohmsecureboot can be on and have system loading seabios.Dec 06 20:14
MinceRload FreeDOS, then load your own Linux kernel via LOADLINDec 06 20:15
oiaohmCatch is seabios has to be signed with a matching KEK.   So seabios is the OS loader.Dec 06 20:15
MinceRthen have someone else load FreeDOS and load random malware via LOADLINDec 06 20:15
MinceRstir up a hysteriaDec 06 20:15
MinceRban the offending keyDec 06 20:15
cubexyzso technically it's possible, but it's a total pain in the ass?Dec 06 20:15
MinceRit doesn't help security, but it does screw inexperienced usersDec 06 20:16
MinceRand screws warranty, most likelyDec 06 20:16
oiaohmcubexyz: Lot of UEFI boards have shipped with emulation done that way.Dec 06 20:16
MinceRit gives m$ more opportunities for FUD, and gives you no advantagesDec 06 20:16
cubexyznot to mention there is no source code to look at Dec 06 20:17
cubexyzso they could put anything at all in thereDec 06 20:17
MinceRlet alone modify, build, shareDec 06 20:17
cubexyzlook at Cedar Trail, it's hugeDec 06 20:18
cubexyzIvy Bridge, Luna Pier, Sandy Bridge... all contain huge amounts of codeDec 06 20:18
cubexyzI'm going to sign seabios, well that's ridiculousDec 06 20:19
cubexyzmaybe if I could turn off secure boot... otherwise noDec 06 20:21
oiaohmcubexyz: turn off secureboot remove the PK Dec 06 20:21
oiaohmcubexyz: or push the clock forward far enough that the PK is expired.Dec 06 20:21
cubexyzoiaohm, why can't I just buy a motherboard without secure boot?Dec 06 20:21
MinceRthisDec 06 20:21
cubexyzI don't want itDec 06 20:22
oiaohmcubexyz: you can by motherboards without PK set.Dec 06 20:22
oiaohmcubexyz: those are secureboot off.Dec 06 20:22
cubexyzok, greatDec 06 20:22
MinceRwhy can't i buy a mainboard with less fucked up firmware than uefi?Dec 06 20:22
oiaohmMinceR: how much are you willing to spend.Dec 06 20:22
cubexyzRaspberry PI I think would workDec 06 20:23
cubexyzor I just go on buying old motherboardsDec 06 20:23
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oiaohmMinceR: Intel makes customer reference model of motherboards.   These are for ODM to load prototype BIOS into.Dec 06 20:23
oiaohmand firmwares into.Dec 06 20:23
MinceRor buy a few companies that make them, and have them make something sane for you :>Dec 06 20:23
MinceRi'm not that rich thoughDec 06 20:23
cubexyzRaspberry PI, Pitop, Novena, and chromebooksDec 06 20:24
oiaohmAlso customer model reference boards sux.Dec 06 20:24
cubexyzand some thinkpads: X60, T60 or X200Dec 06 20:25
cubexyzpretty sure Raspberry PI 2 doesn't have securebootDec 06 20:26
MinceRindeedDec 06 20:26
cubexyzI mean, it would be pretty stupid if it did being a learning/experimental toolDec 06 20:27
cubexyzthe PI does composite video :)Dec 06 20:32
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cubexyzchanging the OS is as simple as swapping SD cardDec 06 20:35
oiaohmReally there are graphic driver init on the Raspberry PI done by closed source and signed blob.Dec 06 20:35
oiaohmThat closed blob loads the u-boot bit.Dec 06 20:35
oiaohmSo implementing secureboot on Raspberry PI would be 1 update.Dec 06 20:36
cubexyzPI is cheap enough to buy one to tryDec 06 20:42
oiaohmcubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29   Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem.Dec 06 20:42
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Blue Pill (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 20:42
oiaohmPI is still way under powered.Dec 06 20:43
oiaohmcubexyz: to get rid of secureboot requires putting something up to NIST and have them agree that your idea is a better solution than secureboot.Dec 06 20:43
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oiaohmcubexyz: to deal with firmware/loader messing under OS.Dec 06 20:44
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cubexyzoiaohm, why care about NIST? neither of us even live in the USDec 06 20:44
cubexyzPI is made in Wales from what I understandDec 06 20:45
cubexyzI doubt NIST cares what I thinkDec 06 20:45
cubexyzPI isn't even x86Dec 06 20:47
cubexyzanyways, I have a lot of old computers, so Blue Pill isn't a problemDec 06 20:49
oiaohmcubexyz: secureboot is appearing in newer systems with virtualisation support.Dec 06 20:52
cubexyzoiaohm, remember we talked about BIOS_WP on ECS motherboard?Dec 06 20:54
oiaohmhttp://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-147/NIST-SP800-147-April2011.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-147b/draft-sp800-147b_july2012.pdf https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/files/resource_files/1FFEE497-1A4B-B294-D01FA27DFDDDEB06/UsingTPMtoAddressCybersecurity_Webinbar_May2014_Final.pdfDec 06 20:54
cubexyzso if I can find one...Dec 06 20:54
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oiaohmcubexyz: those 3 PDF allow you to understand where nist sees us going.Dec 06 20:55
cubexyzok, thanks I will read themDec 06 20:55
oiaohmIts nist that is pushing verified boot ideas.Dec 06 20:55
cubexyzthe ODMs or whatever would still have to go along with itDec 06 20:56
cubexyzthe jumper idea seemed a lot simplerDec 06 20:58
oiaohmcubexyz: if ODM want to sell to USA governement or USA government contractors  or mil countries aligned with the USA who agree to the same standards have to go along with it.Dec 06 20:58
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oiaohmcubexyz: so basically large block of market share to sell to is gone if you don't conform to nist standards.Dec 06 20:59
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/673679090491244545Dec 06 20:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz this is what happens when a Microsoft mole destroys a primary industry https://t.co/kpFX9PpqG7Dec 06 20:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zerohedge.com | It Begins: Desperate Finland Set To Unleash Helicopter Money Drop To All Citizens | Zero HedgeDec 06 20:59
MinceR024251 < oiaohm> cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29   Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem.Dec 06 21:02
MinceRstill failsDec 06 21:02
MinceRthe attacker could replace parts or whole of the system to boot the existing system image on a hypervisorDec 06 21:02
MinceR(parts or whole of the hardware)Dec 06 21:02
cubexyzif you want a secure computer, just have one computer with NO wifi and NO internetDec 06 21:03
MinceRjust another lame excuse to take freedom away from the userDec 06 21:03
cubexyzand 6 foot lead walls :)Dec 06 21:03
MinceRcubexyz: also prevent physical accessDec 06 21:03
MinceRrightDec 06 21:03
cubexyzand I do have a computer like that... Amiga 500Dec 06 21:04
oiaohmMinceR: the presume is attacking does not have physical access.Dec 06 21:04
MinceRthen restricted boot is unnecessaryDec 06 21:05
oiaohmremote malware was able to install items like bluepill.Dec 06 21:05
MinceRthen OS access controls were lackingDec 06 21:06
MinceRin fact, simply a read-only boot device would have prevented the issueDec 06 21:06
cubexyzBluepill needs AMD-V thoughDec 06 21:06
cubexyzso older stuff is safeDec 06 21:06
oiaohmcubexyz: I said bluepill like.Dec 06 21:06
oiaohmcubexyz: there are other older hidden malwares.Dec 06 21:07
cubexyzmaybe... the NSA have some smart people, but most attacks I see are dumbDec 06 21:08
oiaohmcubexyz: http://ai222.narod.ru/discoloured.html  anything based on this tech can do like bluepill attacks on i386 or newer.Dec 06 21:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ai222.narod.ru | Discoloured Ring 0 DebuggerDec 06 21:09
MinceRthey're also morally bankruptDec 06 21:09
cubexyzI see Windows XP :)Dec 06 21:10
cubexyzbut worth a lookDec 06 21:10
cubexyza BIOS attack would be interestingDec 06 21:12
cubexyzjust how do they attack the BIOS remotely?Dec 06 21:12
oiaohmIts called doing too much crap.Dec 06 21:12
oiaohmSome bios maker thought it was a good idea to add a check on internet for updates.Dec 06 21:13
MinceRthey could have added a hw switch to disable update via swDec 06 21:13
MinceRfar more secure than uefi without physical accessDec 06 21:14
MinceRand uefi with physical access is worthlessDec 06 21:14
oiaohmMinceR: I agree with the hardware switch idea but I don't know how to get Nist to go along.Dec 06 21:14
MinceRbut i guess such things are just not "modern" enoughDec 06 21:14
cubexyzDASH and Vpro no doubtDec 06 21:14
cubexyzthat does go back to what I said about forced upgradesDec 06 21:14
MinceRwell, make separate broken crap for the NIST if they want it so much and can afford to pay for itDec 06 21:14
MinceRno need to fuck up IT for everybody for their sakeDec 06 21:15
oiaohmNo NIST does not allow custom supply hardware in most cases.Dec 06 21:15
oiaohmDue to the fact that custom suppied hardware could be targeted.Dec 06 21:15
cubexyzso what do they use?Dec 06 21:16
oiaohmMinceR: basically ODM have to make a choice.Dec 06 21:16
MinceRthen they can use pen and paperDec 06 21:16
MinceRor better yet, rock and chiselDec 06 21:16
cubexyzI heard the Russians were using typewriters :)Dec 06 21:16
oiaohmcubexyz:  Nist standard has you using parts that you can buy through general channel that conform.Dec 06 21:16
MinceRi still don't get it why the industry has to be killed off for the sake of a single fascistic organizationDec 06 21:16
oiaohmMinceR: NIST rules control about 20 percent of the market.Dec 06 21:16
cubexyzMinceR, durable but inconvenient! :)Dec 06 21:17
MinceR(and the nsa should be defunded as well)Dec 06 21:17
MinceRi guess the problem is solving itselfDec 06 21:17
MinceRonce humanity exterminates itself, NIST and NSA members will also be all deadDec 06 21:17
cubexyzdo the russians make motherboards?Dec 06 21:17
MinceRoiaohm: last time i checked 20% was still a minority.Dec 06 21:17
cubexyzthey clone a bunch of stuff in the PDP-11 eraDec 06 21:17
oiaohmMinceR: depends where.Dec 06 21:18
MinceRhas NIST or NSA revolutionarized mathematics too?Dec 06 21:18
oiaohmMinceR: globally 20% of the market.Dec 06 21:18
MinceRstill a minority.Dec 06 21:18
oiaohmMinceR: but particular areas on earth its 100 percent.Dec 06 21:18
MinceRdoesn't matter, still a minorityDec 06 21:18
MinceR100-20=80, 80 > 20Dec 06 21:18
MinceReven more obviously true than uefi being broken crap.Dec 06 21:19
oiaohmNow the next issue is what ever NIST standard normally accept other bodies like Chinas implement something equal.Dec 06 21:19
oiaohmPlease note MinceR NIST does not demard UEFI they just demard a verfied and secured boot.Dec 06 21:20
MinceRalso note that hw switches are a lot less complex than uefiDec 06 21:20
MinceRoiaohm: i don't care what they want, if they demand the general purpose computer to be killed, they can go fuck themselves.Dec 06 21:20
oiaohmgood thing NIST wants general purpose computer to remain.Dec 06 21:20
MinceRdoesn't look like itDec 06 21:21
oiaohmJust secure general purpose computer that they are sure what software is running on it.Dec 06 21:21
MinceRtheir "secure general purpose computer" is not secure and not general purposeDec 06 21:21
oiaohmNIST wants Linux and other OS to work.Dec 06 21:21
MinceRmaybe they'll find a way to also make it not a computerDec 06 21:21
oiaohmNIST standard is why PK is replaceable.Dec 06 21:21
MinceRagain, they could just go play with rocks.Dec 06 21:21
MinceRthey're doing an atrocious job at making other OS workDec 06 21:22
MinceRas in, they're doing an exact oppositeDec 06 21:22
oiaohmThe first idea of UEFI is the PK would 100 percent own to the ODM.Dec 06 21:22
MinceRif they're so incompetent, perhaps they should be defunded and shut down.Dec 06 21:22
MinceRhere's the "big government" the republicans allegedly want to get rid ofDec 06 21:22
oiaohmWithout NIST we would not have the means to change the PK.Dec 06 21:22
MinceRwithout UEFI we would not have the _need_ to change the PKDec 06 21:23
oiaohmNIST first design secureboot signing for old school bios.Dec 06 21:23
MinceRs/an ex/the ex/Dec 06 21:23
oiaohmSo yes a old school bios can have a PK.Dec 06 21:23
MinceRdoesn't matter what incompetent people design forDec 06 21:23
MinceRif they're incapable of coming up with a good design, the designs they come up with will suck.Dec 06 21:23
MinceRand forcing such designs on the industry will kill the industryDec 06 21:24
oiaohmMinceR: I have not said once that the designs don't suck.Dec 06 21:24
MinceRand once they kill the IT industry, it will take the rest of industry, tech, science and human society down with it.Dec 06 21:24
oiaohmBut like it or not we there are mandoary requirements that will have to be meet.  Dec 06 21:24
MinceRmandatory requirements that kill the general purpose computer, got itDec 06 21:25
MinceRit's exactly what i am againstDec 06 21:25
oiaohmPK only in the hands of ODM would have killed the general purpose computer absolutely.Dec 06 21:25
MinceR"only in the hands of ODM" really means "in the hands of microsoft"Dec 06 21:26
oiaohm No it does not.Dec 06 21:26
MinceRsince they have leverage over all the ODMs, except for the ones manufacturing for crApple, which are in the same shitty situationDec 06 21:26
MinceRand remember, they call this a "free market"Dec 06 21:26
oiaohmThere are arm items running custom OS using PK solutions.Dec 06 21:26
cubexyzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Your_Own_Z80_ComputerDec 06 21:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Build Your Own Z80 Computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 21:26
MinceRyeah, as long as emperor nutella allows them toDec 06 21:27
MinceRsitting on the kill switchDec 06 21:27
MinceRor probably more likely gatesDec 06 21:27
oiaohmMinceR: Nist is also why keyless is possible.Dec 06 21:27
cubexyzthere's no kill switch :)Dec 06 21:27
oiaohmMinceR: basically NIST has blocked 100 percent sure killing of general computing.Dec 06 21:28
MinceRyay, slow and drawn-out death!Dec 06 21:29
oiaohmMinceR: think about it how can you proccess large volume of spy data without general computer.Dec 06 21:29
MinceRoiaohm: they are the ones who should think about thatDec 06 21:29
MinceRin general, they should start thinkingDec 06 21:29
oiaohmMinceR: exactly.Dec 06 21:29
MinceRas they haven't done much of it so farDec 06 21:29
cubexyzso the NSA will get general purpose computers and we'll get consumertron 2000sDec 06 21:30
oiaohmProblem is they are attempting to walk a line between secure and general computersDec 06 21:30
MinceRwhich would enable them to rule the worldDec 06 21:30
oiaohmLike NIST made the push to move the TPM off motherboard to a socketed item.Dec 06 21:30
MinceRno, they don't seem to have any idea of what "secure" meansDec 06 21:31
MinceRapparently they've learned "security" from microsoftDec 06 21:31
oiaohmMinceR: that is wrong.Dec 06 21:31
MinceRwhere it means DRM and backdoors with government and m$ accessDec 06 21:31
oiaohmNIST normally publishes before Microsoft.Dec 06 21:31
MinceRand lack of user/owner controlDec 06 21:31
oiaohmMicrosoft follows NIST Dec 06 21:31
oiaohmIn most cases.Dec 06 21:31
MinceRi don't really care what the figures in the shell game are calledDec 06 21:32
oiaohmLike secureboot was written before UEFI had it first line of code written.Dec 06 21:32
oiaohmsecureboot by nistDec 06 21:32
MinceRthe point is, either they will survive, or we will live freeDec 06 21:32
MinceRthere's no other wayDec 06 21:32
MinceRor everybody dies, which is even more likelyDec 06 21:32
oiaohmTo be correct lack of user/owner control NIST does not agree with MinceRDec 06 21:33
oiaohmOk NIST does not have a issue with it being a total pain in ass to operate.Dec 06 21:33
MinceRthen they should get their uefiDec 06 21:33
MinceRand the rest of us should get sane, reliable, secure systems insteadDec 06 21:34
oiaohmMinceR: secure is the problem.Dec 06 21:35
oiaohmHow to achive secure without being a pain in ass.Dec 06 21:35
MinceRand once they get tired of using the broken crap they plotted to force on everybody, they can give the latter a tryDec 06 21:35
MinceRoiaohm: no, they're trying to achieve the illusion of a kind of security they can not haveDec 06 21:36
MinceRand they're willing to give everything up for that illusionDec 06 21:36
MinceRincluding actual, existing securityDec 06 21:36
oiaohmAll security is part illusion.Dec 06 21:37
MinceRhow are illusions supposed to keep you safe?Dec 06 21:37
oiaohmMinceR: its like a locked door.   Its only an illusion really that a person cannot get past it.Dec 06 21:38
oiaohmMost safety depened on the illusion of safety that the illusion is strong enough that most will not attempt to attack it.Dec 06 21:39
MinceRor you could put a guard next to that locked doorDec 06 21:39
oiaohmEven a guard is still a form of illusion.   If some is determed enough a guard or guards normally is not a blockage.Dec 06 21:40
MinceRdepends on the ratio of power between guards and attackerDec 06 21:41
MinceRand a locked door can be strengthened as wellDec 06 21:41
MinceRbut if you're dreaming to stay secure while assuming that the attacker has already passed the door, that's pointlessDec 06 21:42
oiaohmMinceR: No matter what you do attacker can always be stronger right.Dec 06 21:42
oiaohmOr sneaker.Dec 06 21:42
MinceRrestricted does not help with that one bitDec 06 21:42
MinceRs/ted/ted boot/Dec 06 21:42
MinceRit merely screws things up for user/ownersDec 06 21:42
oiaohmIt does help a little.Dec 06 21:42
oiaohmAs it makes replacement more detectable.Dec 06 21:42
oiaohmSo providing extra complexity to attackers to get past.Dec 06 21:43
MinceRand harms a lotDec 06 21:43
MinceRmakes it hard for users to use a secure OSDec 06 21:43
MinceRbricks computersDec 06 21:43
MinceRthe winblows and OSuX they're trying everything to force on us are full of holesDec 06 21:44
oiaohmTo be correct UEFI design that NIST agrees with does not brick computers.Dec 06 21:44
MinceRand will stay full of holes even if you place their illusion beside themDec 06 21:44
oiaohmthe UEFI some ODM have made does.Dec 06 21:44
MinceRin the end, users are screwed _and_ have less securityDec 06 21:44
MinceRgood job, NIST!Dec 06 21:44
oiaohmNot exactly less security.Dec 06 21:45
oiaohmNot doing any validation on boot was 100 percent inscure.Dec 06 21:45
oiaohmSo security has improved a little.Dec 06 21:45
MinceRdoing any validation on boot is still 100 percent insecureDec 06 21:45
oiaohmPain in ass factor increased a lot.Dec 06 21:45
MinceRit only helps companies who conspire to break securityDec 06 21:45
MinceRm$, crApple, intel, ratcrapDec 06 21:45
MinceR(though ratcrap will get screwed by it anyway)Dec 06 21:46
oiaohmcrApple tittle when it comes to UEFI is deserved.Dec 06 21:46
MinceR(they're just too moronic to see it)Dec 06 21:46
oiaohmApple has made more broken UEFI implemtnations than any other vendor.Dec 06 21:46
MinceRyay for themDec 06 21:46
oiaohmMinceR: http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/apple_efi.html   Apple used ELF instead of PE as well just customed to hell version of ELF on top.Dec 06 21:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-refit.sourceforge.net | rEFIt - History of Apple and EFIDec 06 21:48
oiaohmMinceR: PE being a microsoft format sound bad.   But at least it not Apple creating a completley new form of ELF for their UEFI.Dec 06 21:49
MinceRyeah, m$ and crApple are both very good at fucking things upDec 06 21:50
oiaohmPE selection in UEFI was sane ish take existing linkers and just use those no custom modification crap.Dec 06 21:51
MinceRnot reallyDec 06 21:51
MinceRit's validating m$'s position and buying into their broken shitDec 06 21:51
MinceRinstead of industry standards like EFIDec 06 21:51
oiaohmEFI used PEDec 06 21:51
MinceRoopsDec 06 21:52
MinceRELFDec 06 21:52
MinceR(which was agreed upon by unix vendors, afaik)Dec 06 21:52
oiaohmELF not quite as good as it first seams.Dec 06 21:52
MinceR(not that they can only support one format, especially with the code size they've allowed for themselves)Dec 06 21:52
oiaohmELF has a lot more arch type description crap.Dec 06 21:52
MinceRyeah, poor little winblows can't handle itDec 06 21:52
MinceRand everybody must go out of their way to support poor little winblowsDec 06 21:53
oiaohmNo not poor windows.Dec 06 21:53
MinceRsince they're in such a bad positionDec 06 21:53
oiaohmPoor EFI with all the ELF arch stuff could become a pain in ass.Dec 06 21:53
MinceREFI _is_ a pain in the assDec 06 21:53
cubexyzELF appeared in SysV SVR4Dec 06 21:53
MinceRU or not UDec 06 21:53
MinceRit's also a gigantic pile of bloatDec 06 21:53
MinceRfor the simple task of loading and executing a boot loaderDec 06 21:54
cubexyzok, well there's always PDP-11 a.out :)Dec 06 21:54
MinceRi know big piles of crap can look impressive, but they also have the potential for lots of bugsDec 06 21:54
oiaohmRemember PE is extend COFF that predates ELF.Dec 06 21:54
MinceRand in that place, bugs will brick your "computer"Dec 06 21:54
MinceRthen they could use unextended COFFDec 06 21:54
MinceRanother standardDec 06 21:54
oiaohmMinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable.Dec 06 21:55
oiaohmThese days.Dec 06 21:55
MinceRthey only support m$ formats and expect people to think they're impartial? that's absurd.Dec 06 21:55
MinceRoiaohm: they could develop them.Dec 06 21:55
MinceRthey could write tons of code which they wanted to do anywayDec 06 21:55
MinceRexcept that would not bloat the firmwareDec 06 21:55
MinceRit could exist nicely in userspace.Dec 06 21:55
MinceRon top of a real OS.Dec 06 21:55
cubexyzlots of hobbyists still use old UnixDec 06 21:56
MinceRhobbyists are ignored by the brainless suits who call the shotsDec 06 21:56
oiaohmcubexyz: even in old unix there are coff veration.Dec 06 21:56
MinceRthey take the hobbyists' code and then use it against the hobbyistsDec 06 21:56
MinceRoh, and PE is without variations?Dec 06 21:56
MinceRso the various stubs are just in my imagination?Dec 06 21:57
cubexyzoiaohm, recompile seems an easy solutionDec 06 21:57
MinceRthe one that prints it won't run in m$-dos, the one that loads it with .net (for no good reason)Dec 06 21:57
MinceRthe one they put on font files (which apparently need to be executable for some reason)Dec 06 21:57
oiaohmMinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard.   Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub.Dec 06 21:58
cubexyzI can run v6 on PDP-11 or Interdata, probably others tooDec 06 21:58
MinceRooh, "standard"Dec 06 21:58
MinceRfrom m$Dec 06 21:58
MinceRwill you also advocate OOXML too?Dec 06 21:58
cubexyzso C language, recompileDec 06 21:58
MinceRit's a m$ "standard"Dec 06 21:58
MinceRnever mind that m$'s own implementations ignore their alleged standardsDec 06 21:58
MinceRor that if you dropped its printout on someone, it can very well kill themDec 06 21:58
MinceR035800 < oiaohm> MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard.   Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub.Dec 06 21:59
MinceRso those are not variations either?Dec 06 21:59
MinceRi have an ideaDec 06 21:59
MinceRput a PE stub in front of ELF and call it "standard"Dec 06 21:59
cubexyzv5 -> PDP-11, v6 -> interdata 7/32 & PDP-11, v8 -> vax780, etcDec 06 21:59
MinceRand once you have code supporting that, remove the need for the stubDec 06 21:59
MinceRmagic!Dec 06 22:00
cubexyzpick your eraDec 06 22:00
MinceRalso, i'm sure EFI will handle _all_ variations of PEDec 06 22:00
MinceRthere must be support for that in the mountains of bullshit that make up TianoCoreDec 06 22:00
MinceRhell, they could just copy-paste winblows into TianoCore and end the whole charadeDec 06 22:00
cubexyzmy advice is to learn history... computer historyDec 06 22:01
MinceRsoon you'll be able to learn _all_ of computer history, because they will end computersDec 06 22:01
MinceRi wonder whose software will the parasitic luddites at NIST use when they take the computers away from the people whose people they keep ripping offDec 06 22:02
oiaohmMinceR: to be correct EFI does not take all veriation of PE.  Like .net stuff is out.   EFI takes native executable forms of PE.Dec 06 22:02
MinceR035507 < oiaohm> MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable.Dec 06 22:05
MinceRgcc?Dec 06 22:05
oiaohmMinceR: gcc supports 400 COFF formats.Dec 06 22:06
MinceRshould be more than enough for the idiots at NIST, thenDec 06 22:06
MinceRexcept of course they want to use visual studio because they're idiotsDec 06 22:06
oiaohmPE/COFF is formally a coff format.Dec 06 22:06
MinceRi'm sure there are non-m$ formats in thereDec 06 22:07
oiaohmYes there are non MS formats in COFF but the problem is how much of a nightmare it comes.   Like Linux coff a.out is differnet to solaris.....Dec 06 22:07
MinceRi thought a.out was not COFFDec 06 22:08
MinceRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.outDec 06 22:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | a.out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 22:08
oiaohmLinux early on used COFF format.Dec 06 22:08
cubexyzLinux used a.out until kernel 1.2Dec 06 22:09
cubexyzI think up to v7 a.out was usedDec 06 22:10
cubexyzUnix v7 that isDec 06 22:10
cubexyzso probably by v8 then it was COFFDec 06 22:11
cubexyzyou have to go pretty far back to go back to a.outDec 06 22:12
oiaohmMinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COFF  as you can see here the COFF standard is super vague.Dec 06 22:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | COFF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 22:12
oiaohmNumbers of sections is not define.Dec 06 22:12
oiaohmLot of layout bits are not defined in COFF.Dec 06 22:13
oiaohmLets say COFF is wild wild west of binary format.Dec 06 22:13
MinceRwhat are microsoft "standard"s, then?Dec 06 22:13
cubexyzoiaohm, what about Amiga?Dec 06 22:13
MinceR(remember, their own implementations tend to violate the spec)Dec 06 22:13
cubexyzit was called Hunk I thinkDec 06 22:14
cubexyzso we never had executable interoperabilityDec 06 22:14
cubexyzjust source code porting...Dec 06 22:14
oiaohmMinceR: that is the funny thing about PE.   http://www.skyfree.org/linux/references/coff.pdf  This is 1999 from Microsoft for PE but it exactly correct for all binary PE format back to the start to all the way up to current day.Dec 06 22:15
oiaohmMinceR: even the extend for .net was done inside the PE spec.Dec 06 22:15
oiaohmMinceR: Fairlly much the PE format is the only time Microsoft has written a spec and stuck to it.Dec 06 22:15
cubexyzI'm sure RT-11 executeable format would be different againDec 06 22:15
MinceRi have my doubtsDec 06 22:16
cubexyzzaurus executable won't work on P3, etcDec 06 22:16
oiaohmWine project loads all kinds of PE programs from accross the complete time frame.Dec 06 22:16
oiaohmMinceR: you might have you doubts but this is something that is just been tested over and over again.Dec 06 22:17
MinceRwine project took a lot of work to support the craziness in winblowsDec 06 22:17
MinceRand afaik it's still far from perfectDec 06 22:17
oiaohmwine project has to follow down a lot of undocument apis true.Dec 06 22:17
oiaohmbut its never had a issue loading PE itself.Dec 06 22:17
oiaohmPE format is nice and stable the reset of the Windows ABI will make you want to pull you hair out.Dec 06 22:18
oiaohmreset/restDec 06 22:18
oiaohmIf you were after something COFF unforntatly PE/COFF is about your best choice.Dec 06 22:18
MinceRan allegedly independent system that is allegedly supposed to boot other OS-es living entirely within microsoftland and not even trying to disguise that fact much is what makes me pull my hair outDec 06 22:18
MinceRalong with the fact that it's a bloated, broken mess and i don't get much of a choice whether i get it if i buy a computerDec 06 22:19
oiaohmPlease note BEOS and other OS have used PE/COFF as well.Dec 06 22:19
MinceRgood for themDec 06 22:19
MinceRwhere's BeOS now?Dec 06 22:19
MinceRwhat happened to them?Dec 06 22:19
MinceRwhich company did they preach "peaceful coexistence" with?Dec 06 22:19
oiaohmBeOS is cloned in Open source.Dec 06 22:19
MinceRwhy do people _never_ _ever_ learn from their own past mistakes?Dec 06 22:19
cubexyzthere's HaikuOSDec 06 22:19
MinceRHaiku is not BeOSDec 06 22:20
cubexyzit's not bad actuallyDec 06 22:20
oiaohmMinceR: Haiku contains some of the developers from BeOS.Dec 06 22:20
MinceRgood for themDec 06 22:20
oiaohmOS projects take a long time to die.Dec 06 22:20
MinceRi wonder what they'll say when restricted boot locks out HaikuDec 06 22:20
cubexyz"here we go again" ? Dec 06 22:21
MinceR:>Dec 06 22:21
MinceRhumanity needs to develop a strong AI, so that there will be an intelligence that can learn and improveDec 06 22:22
MinceRbecause humans sure as hell can'tDec 06 22:22
oiaohmMinceR: http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI%202_5.pdf  If you read page 67 pdf pages or 18 by document page number you will notice PE used by EFI is not without being modified.Dec 06 22:26
MinceRso they didn't even use the "standard" they pickedDec 06 22:26
oiaohmMinceR: yes it coded named PE+ yes you are meant to strip the dos header off.Dec 06 22:26
MinceRwhich compiler will generate their custom "PE"?Dec 06 22:26
MinceRthe more i see of uefi the more it looks like a carnival of total failureDec 06 22:27
oiaohmTurns out gcc,llvm and msvc MinceRDec 06 22:27
MinceRit's a monument that demonstrates the opposite of engineeringDec 06 22:27
oiaohmThe modifications they did were allowed under PE define MinceRDec 06 22:27
MinceRthe culmination of the crApple/micro$oft dreamDec 06 22:27
oiaohmOf course PE+ requires all the existing compliers at the time to use some extra header files.Dec 06 22:28
oiaohmMinceR: PE was simple to modifiy would having to reinvent the wheel.Dec 06 22:29
MinceRthe usual gameDec 06 22:29
oiaohmwould/without.Dec 06 22:29
oiaohmThey did look at ELFDec 06 22:29
MinceRand said "nah, Not Invented Here"Dec 06 22:29
MinceRor "our lord bill gates would disapprove"Dec 06 22:29
oiaohmNo early prototype EFI tried both.Dec 06 22:29
MinceRand maybe made up some bullshit excuse, which is made ludicrous by their later decisions, as usualDec 06 22:30
oiaohmYes they ran into binary build issues with ELF.Dec 06 22:30
oiaohmNot from Microsoft.Dec 06 22:30
oiaohmFrom solaris and OS XDec 06 22:30
MinceRmaybe they should have tried hiring some software engineersDec 06 22:30
MinceRratcrap should have tried that tooDec 06 22:30
MinceRthen again, their goal was not to build stuff that worksDec 06 22:31
MinceRbut to break stuff that used to workDec 06 22:31
oiaohmMinceR: have you ever used a bios with verfifed boot over the time.Dec 06 22:31
MinceRi don't think i haveDec 06 22:32
oiaohmAlso the existance of  coreboot shows thing were not working right.Dec 06 22:32
oiaohmbios mapping usb keyboards to PS2 interfaces and other horibles in background would cause random distruptions.Dec 06 22:32
MinceRmy newest x86 PC still supports "Legacy Boot"Dec 06 22:33
MinceRsure, the mountain of bloat is still there, but at least it tries to pretend it's a computerDec 06 22:33
MinceRbut that will eventually go awayDec 06 22:33
oiaohmEFI start off as an attempt to remove all the emulation stuff between the OS and the hardware in the SMMDec 06 22:33
MinceRwhich they did not doDec 06 22:33
MinceRSMM is still supportedDec 06 22:33
oiaohmSMM usage is way lower in a UEFI boot to OS than a BIOS boot to OS.Dec 06 22:34
oiaohmBut yes they did not meet their complete objective.Dec 06 22:34
MinceRthe usual [u]efi game: 1. proclaim that doing A is very important; 2. sacrifice everything sane in the name of A; 3. fail to do ADec 06 22:34
MinceRand they expect to be praised for thisDec 06 22:34
oiaohmMinceR: its a 90+ percent reduction of stuff in SMMDec 06 22:34
MinceRi don't careDec 06 22:35
MinceRit's a 100 percent reduction of the stuff general purpose computers exist forDec 06 22:35
MinceRthey don't just throw the baby out with the bathwaterDec 06 22:35
MinceRthey throw the baby into a furnace while carefully preserving the bathwaterDec 06 22:35
MinceRand then they demand compliments for getting rid of the bathwater and keeping the babyDec 06 22:36
oiaohmSMM code from BIOS has been resposnable for random Windows/Linux/BSD/Solaris... crashs due to locking hardware under OS.Dec 06 22:36
MinceRand then you say "but they did end up with a few drops of bathwater less!"Dec 06 22:36
MinceRyes, and it's still there!Dec 06 22:36
MinceRbut now you also get bricked before the OS gets to loadDec 06 22:36
MinceRis that progress?Dec 06 22:36
oiaohmTo be correct some UEFI systems in fact have nothing in SMM mode when OS is running.Dec 06 22:37
MinceRi wish i could "work" with the standards set for these peopleDec 06 22:37
MinceRi would get paid lavishly while doing nothingDec 06 22:37
MinceRand doing nothing would still be better than what these people ever achievedDec 06 22:37
oiaohmWhy UEFI has some is some hardware depends on software power management instead of having a power management microcontrol.Dec 06 22:37
MinceRooh, we have a "UEFI system" in the lab that runs nothing in SMM mode!Dec 06 22:38
MinceRthat's great, and i have a computer that runs what i want it to runDec 06 22:38
oiaohmThere are some boards in the wild.Dec 06 22:38
MinceRyou know what else runs nothing in SMM mode? a rock!Dec 06 22:38
oiaohmSMM mode is levels of nightmare.Dec 06 22:38
MinceRwhich is incidentally a lot more useful than what these idiots at m$, intel and crApple are hacking upDec 06 22:38
MinceRyes, so is uefi.Dec 06 22:39
MinceRand so is windows, and so is macos.Dec 06 22:39
MinceRmaybe it would be more productive to design a new architecture from scratch without the stuff we want to get rid ofDec 06 22:39
MinceRinstead of this pointless wankeryDec 06 22:40
MinceRi bet it could be done with less work than it took to shit out TianoCoreDec 06 22:41
oiaohmUnforantly I have to agree x86 platforms are insanely complex to start up.Dec 06 22:41
MinceRgood thing these ingenious people are working to fix that, right?Dec 06 22:42
oiaohmThe big thing about UEFI documentation is that it starts showing people what people making BIOS for motherboard were doing in secert.Dec 06 22:42
MinceRso far they've managed to make them even more insanely complex to start upDec 06 22:42
MinceRand less reliableDec 06 22:42
MinceRprogress!Dec 06 22:42
oiaohmNot at all.Dec 06 22:42
oiaohmThe start up process was insanely complex MinceRDec 06 22:42
oiaohmJust you had no documentation about it.Dec 06 22:43
MinceRwhat does it say about these people that their work accomplished less than actually doing nothing would have?Dec 06 22:43
oiaohmRead coreboot documentation on starting up.Dec 06 22:43
oiaohmYou will find it about as complex as UEFI.Dec 06 22:43
cubexyzit is complexDec 06 22:43
MinceRtry checking the _code_Dec 06 22:43
MinceRthey don't have to do it in secret anymore because they'll have the government ban general purpose computers from the use of us slaves?Dec 06 22:44
oiaohmMinceR: coreboot and UEFI if you look at code are about equally complex.Dec 06 22:44
MinceRcitation neededDec 06 22:44
oiaohmReality starting an x86 system is a pure pain in ass.Dec 06 22:44
MinceRwhy make it more painful?Dec 06 22:44
cubexyzthere's the old ISA/PCI stuff as wellDec 06 22:45
MinceRis more pain better than less pain?Dec 06 22:45
oiaohmShockily UEFI is less painful than old bios.   Coreboot is also modular with items like services.Dec 06 22:45
MinceRhaving to jump through hoops to boot a secure OS is "less painful" than not having to do so?Dec 06 22:46
MinceRis this some sort of bizarro world?Dec 06 22:46
oiaohmMinceR: basically the only way to make starting an x86 less painful would be redesign the complete thing.Dec 06 22:46
MinceRCOMPLEXITY IS SIMPLICITYDec 06 22:46
MinceRWAR IS PEACEDec 06 22:46
oiaohmEven in bios you have to run checksums on parts.Dec 06 22:46
MinceRFREEDOM IS SLAVERYDec 06 22:46
cubexyzgo raspberry pi thenDec 06 22:47
MinceRIGNORANCE IS STRENGTHDec 06 22:47
cubexyzat least it's not x86Dec 06 22:47
MinceRfor some of my workload, i already haveDec 06 22:47
oiaohmMinceR: signing checking was going on in old school bioses behind you back.Dec 06 22:47
MinceRbut some of it probably won't work on piDec 06 22:47
MinceRoiaohm: and yet old school bioses would boot any os i want toDec 06 22:47
MinceRwithout askingDec 06 22:47
oiaohmMost of the UEFI does is put what was going on in background front and centre.Dec 06 22:47
MinceRwithout putting a ticking time bomb in the processDec 06 22:47
MinceRgreatDec 06 22:48
MinceRwhen will they fix it?Dec 06 22:48
oiaohmOld bios had lot of ticking time bombs.Dec 06 22:48
MinceRalso, when will they take out the unnecessary shit that broke it even more?Dec 06 22:48
MinceRalso, on what basis should i have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to fix things?Dec 06 22:49
oiaohmThe secure boot signing pushed through to OS is just extending what was going on.Dec 06 22:49
MinceRso far, they've made things more broken and proudly proclaimed "HERP DERP FIXED NOW!"Dec 06 22:49
oiaohmDo you remember BIOS that refused to boot if your MBR had changed.Dec 06 22:49
MinceRyes, extending it in a way that fucks up computers for the people who buy themDec 06 22:49
MinceRno, i don'tDec 06 22:49
oiaohmMinceR: they exist.Dec 06 22:49
MinceRi happily changed MBRs and kept on bootingDec 06 22:49
MinceRyes, uefi appliances exist tooDec 06 22:49
oiaohmMost bioses had the switch turned off but some came with it on.Dec 06 22:50
cubexyzthere was an MBR protection thing I think Dec 06 22:50
MinceRand the way things are going, soon there won't be any x86 PCs made that do what their alleged owner tells them toDec 06 22:50
oiaohmcubexyz: yes MBR protection.Dec 06 22:50
cubexyzboot sector watchdog Dec 06 22:50
oiaohmYep another name for the same thing.Dec 06 22:50
oiaohmSo firmware checking your loader is not exactly new.Dec 06 22:50
MinceRyes, they're good at coming up with nice-sounding names for misfeaturesDec 06 22:50
MinceRthey even call DRM "security"Dec 06 22:50
MinceReven though it's the opposite, if anythingDec 06 22:50
MinceRcan we not focus instead on what things _are_?Dec 06 22:51
oiaohmI had the horible case of a motherboard that would only accept a Microsoft MBR.Dec 06 22:51
cubexyzwhich motherboard was that?Dec 06 22:51
oiaohmand Microsoft boot sector.Dec 06 22:51
cubexyzwhich BIOS was that? :)Dec 06 22:51
MinceRi'm not terribly interested on what the Party wishes i believedDec 06 22:51
oiaohmcubexyz: some rebranded foxcomm made board cheap.Dec 06 22:51
oiaohmcubexyz: AMI BIOSDec 06 22:52
MinceRcheapDec 06 22:52
MinceRso even they knew it was crapDec 06 22:52
MinceRback thenDec 06 22:52
MinceRnow it's "securiteh"Dec 06 22:52
cubexyzI like Tyan, MSI, and maybe ECSDec 06 22:52
oiaohmThe reality was there was no option to get around it.Dec 06 22:52
cubexyzstill have to try ECS thoughDec 06 22:52
oiaohmAt least UEFI does define options.Dec 06 22:52
cubexyzoiaohm, you would probably have to rewrite the BIOS to fix itDec 06 22:52
MinceRyesDec 06 22:53
MinceRoption 1: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what m$ tells it to do, while ignoring your wishesDec 06 22:53
oiaohmcubexyz: vendor not providing updates and board not supported by anyone else.   It taught me what the worst case was.   I scraped the board.Dec 06 22:53
MinceRoption 2: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what crApple tells it to do, while ignoring your wishesDec 06 22:53
MinceRoption 3: have no computers or things that pretend they're computersDec 06 22:53
MinceRand that's itDec 06 22:53
cubexyzoiaohm, you probably would have had to give AMI major $$$ to fix thatDec 06 22:53
MinceRthanks, uefi!Dec 06 22:53
cubexyznot worth itDec 06 22:54
oiaohmFrom my point of view UEFI is at least workable.   Pain in Ass but workable.Dec 06 22:54
cubexyzthe funny thing is, I don't think I own an UEFI computer :)Dec 06 22:54
MinceRi don't see why you want pain in the assDec 06 22:54
oiaohmcubexyz: the UEFI ones I have do have replaced PK and KEKs.Dec 06 22:54
cubexyzMinceR, I don't ... for sure I don'tDec 06 22:55
MinceRi also don't see why you believe they'll stop _just_ short of making it impossible to run something not broken on the alleged computerDec 06 22:55
MinceRafter putting all the infrastructure in place to force the alleged computer to be just another bot in m$'s (or crApple's) botnetDec 06 22:55
MinceRit's a lot like cancerd, btwDec 06 22:56
MinceRsomething complex and broken is forced on you without giving you a choice, and they claim it's simple and betterDec 06 22:56
cubexyzyou can put coreboot on quite a few Gigabyte motherboardsDec 06 22:57
MinceRbtw, 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manualDec 06 22:57
oiaohmThere is still on going debate if bootloader should be able to ship with KEK to add to boot system after user approval.Dec 06 22:59
oiaohmUEFI still could improve to less painful.Dec 06 23:00
MinceRthat's the wrong thing to debateDec 06 23:00
MinceRyes, setting the whole thing on fire and having the people responsible do menial work instead would improve it to less painfulDec 06 23:00
oiaohmMinceR: with BIOS we had random crash pain due to what it was doing in secret.   UEFI we have secure boot pain.   So we swapped on pain for another.Dec 06 23:02
MinceRreplacing governments with ones that actually enforce antitrust law would also be an improvementDec 06 23:02
oiaohmMind you UEFI has improved from starting location.Dec 06 23:02
MinceRoiaohm: thanks, but i'm not interested in trying out various instruments of torture on myself.Dec 06 23:02
MinceRthat only means the starting location was allegedly even worseDec 06 23:02
MinceRas long as it's worse than bios, i'm not interested in itDec 06 23:03
MinceRi'm not interested in replacing things with worse thingsDec 06 23:03
MinceRthis is also why i'm not an ideal m$ customerDec 06 23:03
oiaohmhttp://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html   This is what it was like in 2012Dec 06 23:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rodsbooks.com | Managing EFI Boot Loaders for Linux: Dealing with Secure BootDec 06 23:04
oiaohmNotice no means to clear the PK or set your own KEK.Dec 06 23:04
oiaohmSo now you had to use a shim loader that you had to have signed by Microsoft.Dec 06 23:04
MinceRno, in 2012 you could easily buy an x86 PC that could at least do "Legacy Boot"Dec 06 23:04
MinceRthat's going awayDec 06 23:04
MinceRand that's not an improvement.Dec 06 23:04
MinceRit's the opposite of an improvement.Dec 06 23:04
oiaohmEven in 2012 there was EFI boards without legacy boot.Dec 06 23:05
MinceRyes, and even in 2012 there was human excrementDec 06 23:05
MinceRyet i did not attempt to use that to do my computingDec 06 23:05
MinceRi used a general purpose computer.Dec 06 23:05
oiaohmPlease note legacy boot on old EFI.   EFI has still run it just loads some like SEABIOS as the loader.Dec 06 23:06
MinceRwhich is badDec 06 23:06
MinceRbut still not as bad as forced restricted bootDec 06 23:06
MinceRor restricted boot on by default with the switch cleverly hiddenDec 06 23:06
oiaohmThe idea is to push legacy bios to the EFI partition.Dec 06 23:06
MinceRthey're so clever when it comes to fucking customers overDec 06 23:07
oiaohmTo make it simpler to update.Dec 06 23:07
MinceRwhy are they never clever in a constructive way?Dec 06 23:07
MinceRyayDec 06 23:07
MinceRfinally a hdd malfunction can brick the pcDec 06 23:07
MinceRjust the thing i wanted!Dec 06 23:07
oiaohmNo you still have EFI to fall back on.Dec 06 23:07
MinceRyayDec 06 23:07
MinceRi have something unworkable to fall back onDec 06 23:07
MinceRso my brick can also function as a brickDec 06 23:07
MinceRhow handy!Dec 06 23:07
oiaohmMost annoying thing about some EFI implemtnations is boot from internal harddrive only.Dec 06 23:08
oiaohmNo USB drivers in firmware.Dec 06 23:09
MinceRyay, progressDec 06 23:09
MinceRit must take lots of ingenuity and hard work to fuck up things that used to workDec 06 23:09
MinceRconsidering the worship intel, m$ and redcrap receive for doing exactly thatDec 06 23:09
MinceRyou'd think any retard with a sledgehammer could do itDec 06 23:10
oiaohmRasbery pi will not boot from USB out box either.Dec 06 23:10
MinceRat least it will still boot from microsd, which is removableDec 06 23:10
MinceReasily removableDec 06 23:10
MinceRand replaceableDec 06 23:10
oiaohmsata harddrive is removable.Dec 06 23:10
MinceRyou might lose your warranty for removing itDec 06 23:11
MinceRif it's a laptop, you might have to remove pretty much everything else before you can remove itDec 06 23:11
MinceRbut who cares, when the first priority is fucking over the usersDec 06 23:11
oiaohmNIST laptop requirements have harddrive in individual removable compartment.Dec 06 23:12
oiaohmFor data protection reasons.Dec 06 23:12
MinceRgood for themDec 06 23:12
MinceRsomehow that particular requirement they're not as keen on enforcing as restricted bootDec 06 23:12
MinceRi wonder whyDec 06 23:13
oiaohmTo be correct they are keen on enforcing that.Dec 06 23:13
MinceRam i hallucinating all these laptops that don't have it, then?Dec 06 23:13
MinceRhttp://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-06Dec 06 23:14
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-06 | Dilbert by Scott AdamsDec 06 23:14
oiaohm60 percent of laptop made have indivudal compartments for harddriveDec 06 23:14
MinceRcitation neededDec 06 23:15
oiaohmMinceR: Nist alone does not get you to 100 percent.Dec 06 23:15
MinceRit doesn't get me anywhere, except into hellDec 06 23:15
MinceRwhere do you want to go today? never mind, you're not getting there, ever!Dec 06 23:16
oiaohmMinceR: its taking what vendors have market share then looking at construction.   HP,  Toshibias....   Most of the big boys most models of laptops obey NIST.   Exception in a big way is Apple who does what every they like.Dec 06 23:17
MinceRyet crApple jumped on [u]efi before most othersDec 06 23:17
MinceRso NIST gets their way when it's hugely destructiveDec 06 23:17
MinceRand not if it's (probably by mistake) constructiveDec 06 23:17
oiaohmMinceR:  Apple laptop try to remove harddrive.Dec 06 23:18
MinceRand still, mandating a separate HDD compartment is no excuse for breaking booting from removable devicesDec 06 23:18
MinceRoiaohm: smash on rock, sort fragments.Dec 06 23:18
MinceRbonus: it still retains all of its original functionality, since it's crAppleDec 06 23:18
oiaohmNIST did not say break booting from removable harddrive they just have not given a solid ruling on that.Dec 06 23:18
MinceRand if you're lucky, the battery will blow the whole thing apart for youDec 06 23:18
MinceRooh, that's so nice of themDec 06 23:19
oiaohmI am hoping NIST rules that booting from removable drives has to work.Dec 06 23:19
MinceRmaybe they should find a career they can perform adequatelyDec 06 23:19
MinceRfor example, they could try cleaning toiletsDec 06 23:19
oiaohmThat is fairly much what NIST does from a security point of view.Dec 06 23:20
oiaohmThe attempt to clean up after disaster to prevent them happening again write rules.Dec 06 23:20
MinceRi'm hoping that when they manage to get humanity to exterminate itself, it goes extra painful for them.Dec 06 23:20
MinceRactually, as shown above, they have no clue about securityDec 06 23:20
MinceR(no, locking people into winblows is not security)Dec 06 23:20
oiaohmNIST was the one that allowed us to load our own KEK into secureboot so we don't have to run Windows.Dec 06 23:21
MinceRNIST was the one that (according to you) forced restricted boot on us in the first placeDec 06 23:21
MinceRwithout restricted boot, it was easy to not run winblowsDec 06 23:22
MinceRso they didn't do shit about that, they just made it more difficultDec 06 23:22
oiaohmYes but they did not think that anyone one be mad enough to make there design on a general PC restricted to 1 OS.Dec 06 23:22
MinceR"they did not think"Dec 06 23:22
MinceRthat's the pointDec 06 23:22
oiaohmLets just say NIST really lacks in the future looking department and is reactive.Dec 06 23:22
MinceRpeople who do not think should not be given such power.Dec 06 23:23
MinceRyes, they lack in the department that, among other things, looks into the futureDec 06 23:23
MinceRwe call that department the "brain"Dec 06 23:23
oiaohmI do agree that NIST need to have a little more forward planing skills Dec 06 23:23
MinceRhumanity has managed to put destructive, psychotic, parasitic idiots in charge of the IT industry.Dec 06 23:23
MinceRno, they need to be eliminated.Dec 06 23:24
oiaohmNIST is not attempt to be our enemy.   But their level of incompetence is dangerous.Dec 06 23:24
MinceRexactlyDec 06 23:24
MinceRsuch incompetence can not be fixed by adding a few skillsDec 06 23:24
oiaohmNIST gives too much faith that ODM will do the right things.Dec 06 23:24
MinceRthen they're utterly idioticDec 06 23:24
MinceRODMs have never done the right thingsDec 06 23:24
MinceRespecially not under m$/crApple controlDec 06 23:25
oiaohmNothing NIST recommends is without reason.Dec 06 23:25
oiaohmSo there is some thinking.Dec 06 23:25
oiaohmJust is backwards looking thinking.Dec 06 23:25
MinceRso, a PRNG does "thinking" too?Dec 06 23:25
oiaohmThe hard part thinking NIST is recommending things based on historic events means if we ingore them we are doomed to repeat those historic events.Dec 06 23:26
oiaohmSecurity is never simpleDec 06 23:27
MinceRthen perhaps we should stop putting simpletons in charge.Dec 06 23:27
oiaohmThere is a old saying.    You can have userablity or secuirty but not both.Dec 06 23:27
MinceRand with NIST, you will have neither!Dec 06 23:28
oiaohmNIST puts down the recommendations.Dec 06 23:28
MinceRthey should not put them downDec 06 23:28
oiaohmThen intel and others are meant to implement those recommendation.Dec 06 23:28
MinceRthey should put them up.Dec 06 23:28
MinceRwhere the sun doesn't shine.Dec 06 23:28
MinceRrecommendations that lead to uefi with restricted boot are utter garbageDec 06 23:29
oiaohmIssue we have is those implemting NIST recommendations are not exactly doing the best job.Dec 06 23:29
MinceRthat's putting it lightlyDec 06 23:29
oiaohmWe cannot ingnore the need to protect firmware and bootloader and OS due to attacks that have happened.Dec 06 23:30
MinceRthey have done exactly none of those thingsDec 06 23:30
MinceRthey have apparently taken part in such attacks, howeverDec 06 23:30
MinceRand so have the NSA.Dec 06 23:31
MinceRagainst the interests of the people they parasitize.Dec 06 23:31
oiaohmMinceR: implementers or NIST you will find a lot of your problem is with Implementors and its NIST who have forced implementers to come a little saner.Dec 06 23:31
MinceRit's not even "a little saner"Dec 06 23:31
oiaohmMinceR: think first EFI no control of PK and no control of KEK so you could be truly locked out.Dec 06 23:31
MinceRstop comparing current uefi to early efi and start comparing it to biosDec 06 23:32
MinceRoiaohm: bricking the computer can also lock you outDec 06 23:32
oiaohmMinceR: or my case with the must be MS MBR and Boot loader.Dec 06 23:32
oiaohmThat was bios.Dec 06 23:32
oiaohmODM were going the wrong way in the time of BIOS.Dec 06 23:32
MinceRthere's a difference between some ODMs fucking up and fascists mandating something fucked up by design.Dec 06 23:33
MinceRin the former case, the user can win.Dec 06 23:33
MinceRin the latter case, the user can only lose.Dec 06 23:33
oiaohmPlease note if someone designed a replacement to UEFI and it had all the features NIST lists  NIST accept it.    Coreboot used in chromebooks with locked write switch passes nist.   Yes user can unlock it and change the keys if they wish.Dec 06 23:35
MinceRyet nobody else uses corebootDec 06 23:36
MinceRsee above, under ODMs being controlled by m$ and crAppleDec 06 23:36
MinceRalso, i still don't give a flying fuck about what the NIST acceptsDec 06 23:37
oiaohmcoreboot in chromebook still checked loader against signing key.Dec 06 23:37
MinceRwhich loader?Dec 06 23:37
oiaohmWhile not in developer mode.Dec 06 23:37
oiaohmthe chromeos loader from google is signed MinceRDec 06 23:38
MinceRafaik you can remove the whole notion of "developer mode" by replacing the writeable part of the firmware with your ownDec 06 23:38
MinceRalso, developer mode is easy to enableDec 06 23:38
MinceRit's not a hidden switchDec 06 23:38
MinceRit's not a hidden feature that's activated by removing some keys somewhere or by playing with the system clockDec 06 23:38
oiaohmChromebook is NIST conforming and userfriendly ishDec 06 23:39
MinceRchromebooks do things that, if you were only listening to NIST and m$, you'd think were impossible.Dec 06 23:39
oiaohmYes replacing the keys in a chromebook is can be a total pain in ass.Dec 06 23:39
oiaohmIf you listesned only to NIST chromebooks are possible.Dec 06 23:39
oiaohmMinceR: listerning to Microsoft/Intel you might get the wrong point of view.Dec 06 23:40
MinceRdeveloper mode isn't even secret, it's advertised, afaikDec 06 23:41
MinceRthough allegedly that too fucks up warrantyDec 06 23:42
oiaohmNIST does not encougage secrects about security features.Dec 06 23:43
MinceRagain, you'd never guess that if you looked at uefiDec 06 23:43
oiaohmYou have to look at everything NIST approves of to get a clear picture about them.Dec 06 23:43
oiaohmAndroid verified boot is also NIST conforming.Dec 06 23:44
MinceRseeing them approve of the clusterfuck called uefi gives me sufficient informationDec 06 23:44
MinceRi wouldn't want android verified boot on my x86 pcDec 06 23:44
MinceRandroid is enough of a pain in the ass on mobile devicesDec 06 23:44
MinceRespecially since they started playing with mountspacesDec 06 23:45
oiaohmNIST has no focus on userablity and it shows.Dec 06 23:45
MinceRthey don't seem to have focus on anythingDec 06 23:45
MinceRexcept maybe the money they get from m$Dec 06 23:45
oiaohmThey do have focus on historic security failures.Dec 06 23:45
oiaohmNIST does not get money from Microsoft.Dec 06 23:45
MinceRthey're committed to creating more of those?Dec 06 23:45
MinceRhow do you know?Dec 06 23:45
MinceRare bribes generally publicized?Dec 06 23:45
oiaohmMinceR: Nist case yes accepting any gifts without formally declaring them risks of all things prosecution for treason and sent to a mil prison who knows where.Dec 06 23:48
MinceRsounds like a foolproof method to avoid corruptionDec 06 23:49
MinceRwe have the recipe after allDec 06 23:49
MinceRso we must have stopped corruption everywhereDec 06 23:49
MinceRwait a minuteDec 06 23:49
oiaohmBack in 2010 some NIST inspectors got done and end up in prison.Dec 06 23:51
MinceRones who weren't carefulDec 06 23:52
MinceRor took bribes from the wrong partyDec 06 23:52
oiaohmNIST is audted by FBI, CIA and NCIS.Dec 06 23:52
MinceRif only they could also get the NSA on boardDec 06 23:54
oiaohmNSA is suspected as well but confirming that is a bit hard.Dec 06 23:54
MinceR"That's crazy. The government doesn't lie to people. "Dec 06 23:54
oiaohmOf course the group writing rules for USA governement secuirty is going to be one of the most audited places on earth.Dec 06 23:54
MinceRor it would be, if the people responsible actually cared and knew what they were doingDec 06 23:55
oiaohmBeing the most audited place on earth does not mean the people there are 100 percent competent.Dec 06 23:55
MinceRunfortunately, neither is often the caseDec 06 23:55
MinceRcase in point: NSA not caring that they fuck up security for the people who their billsDec 06 23:55
MinceRcase in point #2: NIST (allegedly) propping up restricted bootDec 06 23:55
MinceRs/who /who pay /Dec 06 23:56
oiaohmNo it was not allegedly I brought in the PDF for cubexyz before.Dec 06 23:56
oiaohmNIST who suggested secureboot idea.Dec 06 23:56
oiaohmHow to implement that NIST only gave a rough overview and left it up to the implemtenter to fill in the holes.Dec 06 23:57
MinceRand then approved the horrible mess it led toDec 06 23:58
oiaohmNot exactly.Dec 06 23:58
oiaohmNIST did not approve the first EFI stuff where you could not change the platform key and could not use your own KEK keys.Dec 06 23:58
MinceRwhen government organizations regularly do the opposite of what they're supposed to be doing, isn't it time to shut them down?Dec 06 23:58
oiaohmMinceR: so NIST did not approve the complete horible mess.    NIST approved a slightly improved horible mess.Dec 07 00:00
MinceRwhich is still a horrible messDec 07 00:00
MinceRand still worse than what we had before the whole thingDec 07 00:00
MinceRand yet it's being increasingly forced on usDec 07 00:00
oiaohmOf course due to NIST being history looking they are still free to force more rules down the system.  Dec 07 00:02
oiaohmMinceR: thing to remember NIST is one of the parties who can create rules that ODM will follow.   Problem is is working how to get them to push rules to make our life better.Dec 07 00:03
MinceRthat sounds extremely unlikely to workDec 07 00:03
MinceRit would be better to stop them from messing with our equipmentDec 07 00:04
oiaohmThere is an attempt at momement to get NIST to mandate open source firmware.Dec 07 00:04
MinceRor you could try firing everyone who "works" there and hire people who know what they're doing in their placeDec 07 00:04
MinceRi can see how successful that's going to beDec 07 00:04
oiaohmThere is also questions at the FCC on the same matter.Dec 07 00:06
MinceRwell, yeahDec 07 00:06
oiaohmThe reality here is if FCC and NIST madated Open source ODM would just have to suck it up.Dec 07 00:06
MinceRafter the whole "HERP DERP LOCK DOWN THE ROUTERS" bullshit from themDec 07 00:06
oiaohmLocking down the routers failed security assement.Dec 07 00:07
MinceRi'd rather try 3d-printing my own IC-sDec 07 00:07
oiaohmSo now the arguement has flipped on ear.Dec 07 00:07
MinceRsounds like it's more likely to workDec 07 00:07
oiaohmPlease note NIST got mixed up with the FCC over the routers.Dec 07 00:08
MinceRwell, at least they can't fuck things up even more for us while they're bickering with each otherDec 07 00:08
oiaohmHistorically NIST has not exactly liked closed source.Dec 07 00:09
oiaohmIts more of a tollerance.Dec 07 00:10
MinceRi wonder what changed their mindDec 07 00:10
MinceR$omething'$ telling me it'$ the exact $ame thing that ha$ done thi$ in every other ca$eDec 07 00:10
oiaohmNo its not exactly money.   It is more hurding cats.Dec 07 00:12
MinceRor the usual fascist assumption that concentrating all power in the usian government/megacorporate complex will make things more secure for themDec 07 00:13
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AnawnAnyone seen TheMadHatter?Dec 07 04:05
Anawn!seen TheMadHatterDec 07 04:07
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/673667999325405185Dec 07 04:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives https://t.co/fL3JxGOFNo #suepo #epoDec 07 04:39
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/horakanwalt/status/673633686521298948   https://twitter.com/michaelhorak/status/673625762294034433Dec 07 04:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Staff Union of the EPO Responds to Benoît Battistelli’s Alleged Defamation of Staff Representatives | TechrightsDec 07 04:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@horakanwalt: RT PatentWire "EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/q366gJPflp"Dec 07 04:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” | TechrightsDec 07 04:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@michaelhorak: RT PatentWire "No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to… https://t.co/JH7oNVjy2T"Dec 07 04:40
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805320196595712Dec 07 05:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/fiRtFKoqgDDec 07 05:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Article Highlights #EPO ’s Capitalist Venture Tendencies, Seeking to Just Maximize Profit, Irrespective of Public https://t.co/dOwKDwEnGlDec 07 05:06
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673805616847171585Dec 07 05:07
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @teuthorn @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw https://t.co/4QzoOvqgoiDec 07 05:07
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World https://t.co/yoyptSZ7N3Dec 07 05:07
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673806178703552512Dec 07 05:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @Serv_Pubblico @Corriereit @ilgiornale @fattoquotidiano @t_montinari @reportrai3 @LaGabbiaTw E il membro Italiano ? https://t.co/wBGe6ji2mMDec 07 05:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The Tail That Wags the Dog: How an EPO President Virtually Controls the Administrative Council (AC) https://t.co/vGmM5p6K2I #epoDec 07 05:10
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/673813299788689408Dec 07 05:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/tlZLLjhcXNDec 07 05:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Steam for Linux Now Correctly Shows Only #SteamOS / #Linux Games in Big Picture Mode https://t.co/OaNDNALOoRDec 07 05:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- (Re-tweeted by Aid_Rostov)Dec 07 05:46
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/phessler/status/673817700255326208Dec 07 05:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz you are still WRONGDec 07 05:57
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__martin__schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPODec 07 12:14
__martin__meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50bDec 07 12:15
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MinceRlol, budapestDec 07 12:21
MinceRtheir punishment is living in budapestDec 07 12:21
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673856477791129601Dec 07 12:54
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal @ruskin147 https://t.co/tBs8KeGHwuDec 07 12:54
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Richard Stallman and Eben Moglen on the Microsoft-Red Hat Deal | TechrightsDec 07 12:54
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/673862322515939328Dec 07 12:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Why is it when ppl talk Banks having a "mobile wallet" I feel like some1's got there hands in my pockets?! Tap&go is bad enoughDec 07 12:55
schestowitzIndeedDec 07 12:55
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schestowitzI'm starting to just assume that someone at the BBC is suppressing the article and might wish to point this out if I don't hear back...Dec 07 13:17
schestowitz6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50bDec 07 13:18
schestowitz[17:15] <__martin__> meanwhile.. f**king M$ stocks lost almost 1% today (= // https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/6a1208c57bb4f9a78af03d43732b1bf6aa6d5b97/0_0_731_654/master/731.jpg?w=620&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=6d3dd14ab135d28b9c6b2c600347b50bDec 07 13:18
schestowitzNot a big differentDec 07 13:18
schestowitz*differenceDec 07 13:18
schestowitz[17:14] <__martin__> schestowitz: starting with next year, there will be new smaller fork of epo called VPI, residing in budapest aimed at four central european countries (sorta merge of their national patent burreaus), with the goal of being fully authorized minion of WIPODec 07 13:18
schestowitzNo source, sounds new to me, maybe not credible or unlikely to become  a potent thingDec 07 13:19
schestowitzlike OpenISO amid OOXML scandalsDec 07 13:19
schestowitzNever took offDec 07 13:19
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/theGuruWithin/status/673931988647067648Dec 07 13:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@theGuruWithin: .@Crypt0nymous .@schestowitz .@democracynow .@Freedom_Daily .@RT_com Bernie & Families First Dreamers FULL #idwp https://t.co/LpahP0uBTIDec 07 13:38
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673939867559182336Dec 07 14:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz @Sheikh_al_Touar Rather damning, that.Dec 07 14:03
schestowitz\upcWe just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal.Dec 07 14:53
schestowitzWe just wonder if someone at the BBC has been suppressing publication of this article about the EPO (none about the EPO in many years as far as I can tell, based on a site search). It has been several days and staff that goes on protest is desperate to inform the public. That's why some internally say they must protest and take the risk of reprisal.Dec 07 14:53
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192Dec 07 15:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz this cries out for real stories about how quality is pursued. For example.Dec 07 15:08
MinceR(javascript) https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2015/05/21/quiz-just-how-kafkaesque-is-the-court-that-oversees-nsa-spying/Dec 07 15:56
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.washingtonpost.com | Quiz: Just how Kafkaesque is the court that oversees NSA spying? - The Washington PostDec 07 15:56
schestowitzIs Open Source Swift a good thing? https://avi.alkalay.net/2015/12/open-source-swift.html No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms"Dec 07 15:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-avi.alkalay.net | Is Open Source Swift a good thing ? « Avi AlkalayDec 07 15:59
MinceRtypical crApple qualityDec 07 16:00
schestowitzopenssl patches for UbuntuDec 07 16:11
schestowitzJust in: http://lwn.net/Articles/667035/rssDec 07 16:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Security advisories for Monday [LWN.net]Dec 07 16:11
schestowitz"Ubuntu has updated cups-filters (15.10, 15.04, 14.04: code execution), foomatic-filters (12.04: code execution), and openssl (multiple vulnerabilities). "Dec 07 16:11
schestowitzMinceR: http://9to5mac.com/2015/12/07/apple-open-source-first/Dec 07 16:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-9to5mac.com | Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism | 9to5MacDec 07 16:16
MinceRwowDec 07 16:16
MinceRthat's got to be a firstDec 07 16:16
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/673955895336968192Dec 07 16:25
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673973548113895424Dec 07 16:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Thnx waited for this post :) ...think youre a rich but busy social type + not happy of gov.politics . cool guy u lol https://t.co/2EtRhlZQsPDec 07 16:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Day 7 — Unicode, Perl 6, and You https://t.co/YSKIKLYZ76 #perl #unicodeDec 07 16:26
schestowitzI don't like politicsDec 07 16:26
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/673974518113681408Dec 07 16:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz No, let's put Windows [N]XP in every automotive engine. (The games will keep the car amused while idling.)Dec 07 16:26
MinceRlolDec 07 16:26
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/MCCob/status/673975611774345216Dec 07 16:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MCCob: @schestowitz @AlexArchambault any proof that they _only_ use not encrypted communication ? ISIS use encryptionDec 07 16:27
MinceRi didn't know BSoDs were signs of amusementDec 07 16:27
schestowitzPeople who carry out successful attacks evidently don't use these toolsDec 07 16:27
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673975763612409857Dec 07 16:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: True noticed that, on paper they are perfect...but not socialy adaptive knowledges or patience to catch, sucseed https://t.co/g1HWWcu9NcDec 07 16:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #Security lacks patience https://t.co/ZUWbHOzKkXDec 07 16:30
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/673976106744057856Dec 07 16:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: Bwahaha, hilarious. https://t.co/lwONgsRHokDec 07 16:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religionDec 07 16:30
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978026938507265Dec 07 16:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Logic, wait, you're not a member of the Reality-Based Community are you? You'd never make it as a policymaker!Dec 07 16:31
schestowitzSarcasm communityDec 07 16:31
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/evangineer/status/673978403549265922Dec 07 16:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@evangineer: @schestowitz Indeed.Dec 07 16:32
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/slimekat/status/673979096569937921Dec 07 16:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@slimekat: @schestowitz @kstallett @andrewtraviss lolDec 07 16:38
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/blankebelg/status/673979261833912324Dec 07 16:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blankebelg: Me 2 realy hate them, personal issues. Never studied english but can exptess profoundly the rights of people :) thnx https://t.co/udoOONPVZjDec 07 16:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @blankebelg I don't like politicsDec 07 16:38
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673980481105485824Dec 07 16:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz They should probably also ban human to human interaction. All this will mean we forget the gov forgot to track known extremistsDec 07 16:47
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/ReystarTech/status/673985338797334533Dec 07 17:05
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ReystarTech: RT @schestowitz: #Google To Launch #Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? https://t.co/zhXLddy4DC #linuxDec 07 17:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidheadlines.com | Google To Launch Android One v2.0 In India On December 16th? | Androidheadlines.comDec 07 17:06
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cubexyzyou don't think bsods like this one are funny?Dec 07 17:53
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/bsod-microsoft-vista.jpgDec 07 17:54
cubexyzwhen they can't keep a demo from bsoding it's funnyDec 07 17:55
MinceR:)Dec 07 17:55
schestowitzthey should replace the blue screen with all pixels blackedDec 07 17:58
schestowitzthen they can insist the photos were taken while the monitors were switched offDec 07 17:58
cubexyzhahaDec 07 17:58
schestowitzit's like a rebrand of BSODDec 07 17:59
schestowitzto evade the negative pressDec 07 17:59
schestowitzand the stigmaDec 07 17:59
MinceRthey already tried automatically rebooting when the BSoD pops upDec 07 18:00
cubexyzthis one is funny too:Dec 07 18:00
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpgDec 07 18:00
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/giant-outdoor-bsod.jpg )Dec 07 18:00
cubexyz"have you tried rebooting?"Dec 07 18:02
cubexyzyes I did, and it bsoded again in the same spotDec 07 18:02
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674002953989136385Dec 07 18:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What's happened?Dec 07 18:47
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Twpalovi/status/674004469944819712Dec 07 18:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Twpalovi: @schestowitz What?Dec 07 18:47
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674009346095882240Dec 07 18:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz alibi?Dec 07 18:48
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/azrilxx/status/674015748306558976Dec 07 19:05
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@azrilxx: Until they tackle Exchange, can't see them fighting Outlook any time soon https://t.co/VU5ddEqxw1Dec 07 19:05
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Potential cooperation between #LibreOffice and #Thunderbird https://t.co/cHOrphmdVHDec 07 19:05
cubexyzI'm happy I'm off windowsDec 07 19:15
cubexyzthings seem to be a lot worst now then the win2k eraDec 07 19:16
cubexyzforced download and install of windows 10 just seems totally wrongDec 07 19:16
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017647340756993  https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/674017917592301568Dec 07 19:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: ничего,. Паства будет помнить этот факт и передавать из уст в уста)) https://t.co/MBeYw5qEsvDec 07 19:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Apple retracts comment that it was first major open source company after criticism https://t.co/vHtg4oZcCA #apple = #religionDec 07 19:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @perfectlysoft @matt_clarkson @github But i agree with https://t.co/OUkfiedrZtDec 07 19:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Is Open Source Swift a good thing? https://t.co/2N2p6AKP9W No, #apple #openwashing "It is difficult to unbound Swift from Apple platforms"Dec 07 19:32
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schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898137Dec 07 20:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Did the #EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? http://techrights.org/2015/12/07/bbc-and-epo/Dec 07 20:49
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Did the EPO Spike a BBC Story Regarding Discriminatory Practices, Legal Bullying of Bloggers, and/or Microsoft Bias? | TechrightsDec 07 20:49
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/674157378468749312Dec 08 04:37
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz basically everyone else has to do the BS verification just so that they have a stick to go after a few specific targetsDec 08 04:37
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A_FriendHardon vs EPO  https://www.docdroid.net/xw8mJzt/20151120-4th-letter-ef2jk-council-on-institutional-harassment-redacted.pdf.htmlDec 08 04:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.docdroid.net | 20151120 4th Letter EF2JK_Council on Institutional harassment redacted.pdf - DocDroidDec 08 04:46
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674162468848017408Dec 08 04:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Pirate Bay’s .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification https://t.co/q5AvqB9j7u #icann #censorshipDec 08 04:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> torrentfreak.com | Pirate Bay's .org Domain Suspended Pending ICANN Verification - TorrentFreakDec 08 04:46
schestowitzA_Friend: I knowDec 08 04:46
schestowitzarticle on its wayDec 08 04:47
A_Friendok, thanksDec 08 04:47
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674164461406695424Dec 08 04:58
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz Lots of people there actually has felt as USSR for years.Dec 08 04:58
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schestowitzhttp://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/boards-of-appeal-tell-ac-we-were-never.html?showComment=1449576934490Dec 08 08:13
schestowitz"Dec 08 08:13
schestowitzTony Soprano said...Dec 08 08:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Boards of Appeal tell AC: we were never consultedDec 08 08:13
schestowitz    SUEPO “is not a trade union, it’s a mafia-type entity” according to Battistelli.Dec 08 08:13
schestowitz    Well that clearly explains the need for forensic investigators ...Dec 08 08:13
schestowitz"Dec 08 08:13
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674223728742555649Dec 08 09:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @schestowitz "Mannaggia! ...Forget about it! ....hey boss, should we call Luca Brasi and have him take care of this?"Dec 08 09:04
schestowitzLOLDec 08 09:04
schestowitzLibrem send me a test unit to review (and return)Dec 08 09:13
schestowitzexcerpt:Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Roy,Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completedDec 08 09:13
schestowitz> the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confidentDec 08 09:13
schestowitz> that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware.Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard toDec 08 09:13
schestowitz> reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone.Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future.Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> Dec 08 09:13
schestowitz> All the best,Dec 08 09:13
schestowitzI have been following -- and covering -- Qubes for a number of years. I suppose these guys noticed. It sounds like a very legitimising partner because Qubes are known for some high quality security research, all the way down to boot sequences if not silicon (one of the points for which Librem got flack).Dec 08 09:13
schestowitzMy wife doesn't requiee security and privacy to the same degree I do because I currently deal with some nasty organisations that hired spies to go after me (confirmed) and try to unmask my sources. They also sent me legal letters in an effort to bully me (not sure if you saw this in the media as recently as weeks ago).Dec 08 09:13
schestowitzI intend to test the unit from the perspective of an activist/journalist...Dec 08 09:14
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schestowitztwo identical posts with the title "What Are Massive Open Online Courses (MOOCs) ? How Can You Benefit Out Of MOOCs?" were published this morning. In succession. I unpublished one of them to avoid the duplication, hoping it'll be just fine (I checked to be sure that both entries were identical)Dec 08 09:29
schestowitz(tux machines)Dec 08 09:30
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674235164256575488Dec 08 09:36
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @reportrai3 @t_montinari @AltalexNews https://t.co/TuWQlmf6gxDec 08 09:36
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: People who say I write too much about the #epo probably don't grasp the severity of the matter. Too fast? As fact as I receive material...Dec 08 09:36
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674238950765166593Dec 08 09:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: Jesus Christ.... No decency, no dignity, no honour at all. https://t.co/ffS7yeYRhGDec 08 09:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: In J’accuse of Team #battistelli at #epo the spinners try to paint managers as saving staff from suicides, blame in on SUEPO. Guffaw!Dec 08 09:48
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schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/6898379Dec 08 09:58
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Based on action/response logic, #france should NOT ban Tor or Free Wi-Fi but ban -- wait for it -- SMS. That's what these guys used.Dec 08 09:58
schestowitz"I think that the attack was a happy coincidence for the French Government to go ahead with plans made long before. And that if it was not a false flag."Dec 08 09:58
schestowitz"Very clever point, Roy!"Dec 08 09:58
schestowitz"similar to other attacks we've seen..."Dec 08 09:58
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SteamAdd/status/674261557304541184Dec 08 11:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SteamAdd: Can you please add me on Steam: Hodennase https://t.co/fo9vc7AUk2Dec 08 11:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How 1,699 #Linux #games can give #SteamOS a boost https://t.co/8WbG9iS6YL and #debian by extensionDec 08 11:19
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/redlocal/status/674272550004891648Dec 08 12:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@redlocal: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZG6NTArhYI #ubuntu https://t.co/CrxpoURMzSDec 08 12:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> linux.softpedia.com | elementary Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's Launchpad to GitHubDec 08 12:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #elementaryOS Devs Move the OS' Icons from Canonical's #Launchpad to #GitHub https://t.co/ZNEPeVoykY #ubuntuDec 08 12:01
XRevan86schestowitz: What's a "National Front"?Dec 08 12:11
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schestowitzin FranceDec 08 12:12
schestowitzTheir Nazi party basicallyDec 08 12:12
schestowitzwith very racist statements towards all sorts of groupsDec 08 12:12
schestowitznot just MuslimsDec 08 12:12
schestowitzThey're now the leading partyDec 08 12:12
schestowitzthanks to ISISDec 08 12:13
schestowitz#google national front france nazisDec 08 12:13
schestowitz!google national front france nazisDec 08 12:13
TechrightsBot-tr[1] - National Front (France) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Front_(France)Dec 08 12:13
TechrightsBot-tr[2] - Jean-Marie Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Marie_Le_PenDec 08 12:13
TechrightsBot-tr[3] - Marine Le Pen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Le_PenDec 08 12:13
TechrightsBot-tr[4] - Far-right National Front triumph in France - Daily Mail | http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2638965/Massive-victory-French-far-right-National-Front-record-quarter-vote-Euro-elections.htmlDec 08 12:13
XRevan86schestowitz: France… it degrades pretty quickly.Dec 08 12:14
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XRevan86schestowitz: I don't think this is really ISIL "fault" as it's people's choice how to respond to terrorism.Dec 08 12:22
MinceRterrorism and the cults that lead to it are also people's choicesDec 08 12:34
XRevan86MinceR: Indeed.Dec 08 12:34
schestowitz!google mirage embargo franceDec 08 12:38
TechrightsBot-tr[1] - France–Israel relations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France%25E2%2580%2593Israel_relationsDec 08 12:38
TechrightsBot-tr[2] - Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_5Dec 08 12:38
TechrightsBot-tr[3] - France - The Six-Day War | http://www.sixdaywar.org/content/france.aspDec 08 12:38
TechrightsBot-tr[4] - French History and Current Attitudes to Israel - An interview with ... | http://www.jcpa.org/israel-europe/ier-eytan-05.htmDec 08 12:38
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arossdotmesounds like, to quote a first person shooter game: "Terrorists Win"Dec 08 13:55
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674301341313953792Dec 08 13:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Actually it was the USSR who backed North Vietnam. China did try to invade Vietnam in 1979 in fact.Dec 08 13:59
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cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/windows-cracked.jpgDec 08 19:42
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/mikelm31/status/674397349163220992Dec 08 20:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mikelm31: @schestowitz @REPUBSRFUBAR @japantimes ## Yes and why he stole 1.3 Trillion from Social Security ! And started this mess over lies!Dec 08 20:17
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schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/2438351/microsoft-begins-migrating-office-365-smb-customers-to-new-plansDec 09 05:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theinquirer.net | Microsoft begins migrating Office 365 SMB customers to new plans- The InquirerDec 09 05:16
schestowitzNot sure what to do with this link. Maybe I miss the key part...Dec 09 05:16
cubexyzI'm sure Microsoft is screwing over their customers as usualDec 09 05:27
cubexyzpadding their revenue stream as usualDec 09 05:27
cubexyzit's all about the subscription plansDec 09 05:29
cubexyzpay M$ foreverDec 09 05:31
schestowitzyeahDec 09 05:32
schestowitzbut that's not news ;-)Dec 09 05:32
cubexyzprobably people aren't upgrading fast enough, thus Office 365Dec 09 05:34
cubexyzalso Office 365 Home Premium needs windows 7Dec 09 05:38
cubexyzcan't have people not upgrading don't you knowDec 09 05:38
cubexyzalso the cloud will keep the NSA guys happyDec 09 05:39
oiaohmcubexyz the question I have is when will Office 365 require windows 10.Dec 09 05:40
cubexyzoiaohm, you're not thinking like a true Microsoftie yetDec 09 05:41
cubexyzOffice 365 will need Windows 365 in the futureDec 09 05:41
cubexyzbtw, Microsoft has trademarked Windows 365 alreadyDec 09 05:43
cubexyzI mean, you don't have to be Nostradamus to see what's going onDec 09 05:43
oiaohmLibreoffice online is coming along.Dec 09 05:44
cubexyzsome survey data says the average person buys a new computer every 4.5 yearsDec 09 05:46
oiaohmhttps://github.com/COMU/libreonline-owncloudDec 09 05:46
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | COMU/libreonline-owncloud · GitHubDec 09 05:46
cubexyzin comparison....I'm quite the outlierDec 09 05:47
cubexyzI salvaged this Dell GX110 Dec 09 05:48
cubexyzno one wanted it... makes a good IRC box thoughDec 09 05:48
cubexyzthe funny thing is, I've talked to several folks that wanted a 486Dec 09 05:49
oiaohmReally I suspect things will get more interesting as Libreoffice online matures.Dec 09 05:49
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674538690727813120Dec 09 05:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @borghi_claudio @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico #TPP The older, yet less known brother of #TTIP https://t.co/aDMY6adHw6Dec 09 05:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: How the #TPP Will Affect You and Your Digital Rights https://t.co/ml20zPG5Dw cc @glynmoodyDec 09 05:50
oiaohmcubexyz: http://opencores.org/project,ao486 that is a 486sx built using modern bits.Dec 09 05:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | ao486 :: Overview :: OpenCoresDec 09 05:52
cubexyzI think bochs bios is open source, so that's kind of appealingDec 09 05:54
oiaohmcubexyz: there are other insanity as well http://www.eecg.toronto.edu/~yiannac/docs/fpga07.pdfDec 09 05:54
oiaohmYes pentuim cpu removed and fpga chip put in it place is the pdf.Dec 09 05:55
cubexyzoiaohm, opencores PDP-11 would be more fun I thinkDec 09 05:55
cubexyzI've definitely considered itDec 09 05:55
oiaohmhttp://opencores.org/project,next186_soc_pc  I have looked at this one for some of my very old code.Dec 09 05:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.org | Next186 SoC PC :: Overview :: OpenCoresDec 09 05:57
cubexyzPDP-11/70 running Unix v5Dec 09 05:57
cubexyzhttp://opencores.com/project,w11Dec 09 05:57
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Overview :: OpenCoresDec 09 05:57
oiaohmThis is party why I say to people please don't think you have to run old hardware.Dec 09 05:59
oiaohmLot of really old hardware can be emulated in fpga quite well and been a lot more dependable than the true stuff that is like 30 years old. Dec 09 06:00
cubexyzgetting a real PDP-11/70 that works well would be very expensiveDec 09 06:00
oiaohmProblem is even if you got a real PDP-11/70 that worked today.   The question is how long until another old part bites it.Dec 09 06:00
cubexyzyesDec 09 06:00
cubexyzbut for some, fixing stuff is half the funDec 09 06:01
oiaohmIts still not straight forwards setting up a fpga chip.Dec 09 06:01
oiaohmLike you have to wire up all the outputs and the the like.Dec 09 06:02
oiaohmAlso the fpga emulation can use less power than the old machine would.Dec 09 06:02
cubexyzdefinitelyDec 09 06:02
cubexyzway less :)Dec 09 06:02
oiaohmAlso way smaller as well.Dec 09 06:04
oiaohmparticularly in the case of PDP-11/70 compare to it soc replacement.Dec 09 06:05
oiaohmcubexyz: http://opencores.com/project,w11,performance  hmm that is a PDP-11/70 on go fast juice.Dec 09 06:07
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-opencores.com | PDP-11/70 CPU core and SoC :: Performance :: OpenCoresDec 09 06:07
oiaohmcubexyz: http://www.digilentinc.com/Products/Detail.cfm?Prod=BASYS3  so less than 300 dollars in parts to set up a PDP-11/70 emulated solution in modern day parts.Dec 09 06:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.digilentinc.com | Digilent Inc. - Digital Design Engineer's SourceDec 09 06:13
oiaohmKinda tempting if I was into running old Unix systems.Dec 09 06:13
cubexyzwell you can run simh for free :)Dec 09 06:14
cubexyzhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6c_0pqLE3wDec 09 06:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | unix version 5 demo - YouTubeDec 09 06:16
schestowitzhttp://ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.htmlDec 09 06:16
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:16
schestowitzThe ILO decision linked by Kant is disheartening. It reveals poor behaviour on both sides, going back many years. While a few of Mrs E.H.'s complaints were upheld, more were dismissed.Dec 09 06:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.co.uk | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to EponiaDec 09 06:17
schestowitzIt seems to me that there are two causes of the social unrest at the EPO. It would be tempting to say "a plague on both their houses". But that would still leave serious problems.Dec 09 06:17
schestowitzIf there is to be a solution, change and cooperation is needed from both sides. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing any signs of change or cooperation from either side. Each side no doubt blames the other for the failure of the dialogue requested by the AC.Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz Vive le Roi! said...Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz    "Today yet another member of the "inner circle" (I won't use the term mafia) was promoted to the rank of director."Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz    Actually, there is an interesting graph which shows how the closest "collaborateurs" of Mr. Battistelli either originate from the INPI (Institut national de la propriété industrielle, of which Battistelli was the president) or are bound by family links between each other ...Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz    Who said "nepotism"?Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz"Just one more blatant violation of the EPC, with obvious consequences. Inbreeding is prohibited under Art. 53 b) EPC"Dec 09 06:17
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzThe commenter that is convinced that BB and his clique will soon be shown the door is living in Cloud Cuckoo Land.Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzThe reality is that France is on the front line, the cutting edge, of a war to defend our most fundamental freedoms and we are all called upon to stand shoulder to shoulder with the French. Nobody dares to suggest otherwise.Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzWhat are these fundamental values of which I write. Well, you know, the Secular State, the Rule of Law and the Separation of Powers.Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzWhat separation? The separation of the three branches: legislative, judicial and executive. BB is just a good soldier, bringing the mischief and wickedness to an end, doing his bit for Europe. He tells the Administrative Council (and himself, just like Tony Blair did) that, in the end, history and the public will come to recognise the sacrifices he has made, for the greater good of Europe.Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzBut it didn't work out quite like that for Tony, did it?Dec 09 06:18
schestowitz"Dec 09 06:18
schestowitzhttps://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6903284Dec 09 06:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Stefan Krempl's article in German - if SUEPO doesn't produce a translation, does anyone else want to? ttp://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Europaeisches-Patentamt-Streit-zwischen-Fuehrung-und-Mitarbeitern-spitzt-sich-rasch-zu-3036971.html #epoDec 09 06:20
schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/6902547Dec 09 06:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of #EPO Staff Representatives http://techrights.org/2015/12/08/letter-to-administrative-council/Dec 09 06:30
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/674313610139668480   https://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/673830690169851904  https://twitter.com/EuropePAN/status/674543042133626880  https://twitter.com/Senficon/status/674548732126433280   https://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/674551671847002112Dec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Chairman of the Administrative Council Failed to Stop Suspension (and Potential Firing) of EPO Staff Representatives | TechrightsDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@arusbridger: Before giving a state massive surveillance powers probably best to think how, eg, Donald Trump or Marine le Pen wd use themDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Superb BBC correction, after Sir Doug Ellis accused of being "with Hezbollah" instead of "with a Villa scarf": https://t.co/t2HIHY93GO #avfcDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.birminghammail.co.uk | Read the BBC's apology to Sir Doug Ellis after an unfortunate subtitle mix up on Match of the Day - Birmingham MailDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfrDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@EuropePAN: 135,733 Europeans deliver a clear message: ban #glyphosate #eu @wemoveEU @HealthandEnv @corporateeurope @PAN_UK https://t.co/Drq9hnpwfrDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CARDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Senficon: Here's the text of the Commission's #portability proposal: https://t.co/7d2ZM6YAzb Let me know what you think! https://t.co/Z63BtY3CARDec 09 06:31
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: I still have lots of #epo articles coming, but at least the backlog is now of a size I can almost get my head around (alta vista)Dec 09 06:31
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674568656077111296Dec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @altalex @altreconomia https://t.co/DuCYjN487oDec 09 07:39
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: EU Commission unveils next steps for #copyright reform, including draft content portability regulation https://t.co/IGNdlix7foDec 09 07:39
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674582224692449281Dec 09 08:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/YY8hOj5MzJDec 09 08:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zdnet.com | ​Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects | ZDNetDec 09 08:35
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jmcest/status/674583550226776067Dec 09 08:43
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @SleepyPenguin1 Open source encryption? Now Netherlands votes to help fund security projects @schestowitz https://t.co/PfQpB14vPjDec 09 08:43
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FIFO_Hi Roy! Thanks for all reports on eponia. I have noticed that your services were down at several occasions today. Am I wrong?Dec 09 12:02
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/tecknocrat/status/674600247360794624Dec 09 12:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tecknocrat: @schestowitz Ah .... but will it have Fins & more shiny stuffffffff - bling!Dec 09 12:53
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schestowitz"Dec 09 13:50
schestowitzNickDec 09 13:50
schestowitzNick about 4 hours agoDec 09 13:50
schestowitz"Dec 09 13:50
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msb_cubexyz: Hello?Dec 09 15:23
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msb_Yet another call from "Your computer is sending bad signals.  Press 1 to talk to a certified microsoft idiot".  Foreign accent, didn't know if he was in Las Vegas or Los Angeles.  Hung up without trying to get any money from me, again.  NoMoRobo didn't catch them, so I reported their number.Dec 09 18:18
msb_What is their racket, anyhow?Dec 09 18:24
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cubexyzhttp://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-04/11/malwarebytesDec 09 20:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.wired.co.uk | What happens if you play along with a Microsoft 'tech support' scam? (Wired UK)Dec 09 20:04
cubexyzthe racket is to get money from the victimDec 09 20:05
cubexyzget teamviewer on your computer and allow 3rd party control of the victim's computerDec 09 20:07
oiaohmcubexyz: sometimes it great fun to have virtual machines.Dec 09 20:19
oiaohmcubexyz: I remember the main reason for EFI in the first place.   MBR has a max harddrive size in BIOS standard of 2TB.  Dec 09 20:20
oiaohmcubexyz: basically we have out grown what old school BIOS can support. Dec 09 20:21
cubexyzEFI was subverted by MicrosoftDec 09 20:21
oiaohmPart Microsoft.Dec 09 20:22
cubexyzthey are using Microsoft data formatsDec 09 20:22
oiaohmSome of the MS format usage makes sense.Dec 09 20:22
oiaohmfat series of file systems is one of the most OS supported file systems on earth.Dec 09 20:23
oiaohmsigning comes out of NIST requirements mixed with ODM wanting to be evil so and so and Microsoft seeing the advantage.Dec 09 20:23
cubexyzthere's lots of McDonald's restaurants, but that doesn't make it a good oneDec 09 20:23
cubexyzpopular != goodDec 09 20:24
oiaohmCase of fat its not exactly good.   But there was worse like UDF.Dec 09 20:24
cubexyzanyways, I reject using EFI or UEFIDec 09 20:25
oiaohmPE happens to be the best choice out of the COFF class of file formats.Dec 09 20:26
oiaohmcubexyz: there is 1 area I do have a problem with.   Exaclty why CAB for UEFI capsules.    Its not the best in it class.Dec 09 20:28
cubexyzif you had the old bios source you could keep patching it, it's only because we live in a closed source BIOS world that we can'tDec 09 20:29
MinceRthese excuses for stuff like [u]efi would be amusing if it wasn't a major offensive against the general purpose computerDec 09 20:29
oiaohmcubexyz: old school bios mandates a lot of stupidity.Dec 09 20:29
cubexyzit's just code and data, nothing specialDec 09 20:29
oiaohmcubexyz: old school bios end up running code in SMM to make USB keyboards and mice appear PS/2Dec 09 20:29
MinceRuefi also runs SMMDec 09 20:30
MinceRfind another excuseDec 09 20:30
oiaohmMinceR: sorry a clean UEFI does not have to have any code running in SMM.Dec 09 20:30
cubexyzoiaohm, I'm sure if I spent more time studying things (which I am trying to do) I would find a lot of crufty codeDec 09 20:30
MinceRoiaohm: sorry, a clean uefi does not exist on the market.Dec 09 20:30
oiaohmMinceR: its not madated as part of UEFI design to have it.Dec 09 20:30
MinceRoiaohm: nobody cares what uefi mandates, all they care about is what m$ mandates.Dec 09 20:31
cubexyzso my main objection is the proprietary closed source once againDec 09 20:31
oiaohmMinceR: there are clean UEFI in some Intel class motherboards.Dec 09 20:31
MinceRoiaohm: how many of those were sold?Dec 09 20:31
oiaohmMinceR: 4 and half million to amazon google and facebook.Dec 09 20:31
MinceRoiaohm: what percentage is that of total uefi systems sold?Dec 09 20:31
oiaohmMinceR: don't know percentage they are one of the highly popular server boards because they are stable.Dec 09 20:32
cubexyzalso what other alternatives to UEFI exist?Dec 09 20:32
oiaohmMinceR: not having crap happening hiddne in SMM helps things.Dec 09 20:32
MinceRbios, coreboot, u-boot (not on x86, afaik)Dec 09 20:32
oiaohmu-boot can be used on x86.Dec 09 20:32
MinceRoiaohm: what about crap happening hidden in uefi?Dec 09 20:32
MinceRlibreboot, if you want to count that separatelyDec 09 20:32
oiaohmMinceR: a clean implemtnation of UEFI once the OS is up everything from UEFI is shutdown.Dec 09 20:33
oiaohmMinceR: of course there are a lot of dirty UEFI implementations out there.Dec 09 20:33
MinceRlike TianoCore?Dec 09 20:33
MinceRand why do you pretend nothing matters until the OS is up?Dec 09 20:33
oiaohmTianoCore is clean.Dec 09 20:33
MinceRTianoCore is bigger than Linux without driversDec 09 20:34
MinceRwhy does a boot firmware have to be so huge?Dec 09 20:34
MinceRthere are uefi implementations so bloated they don't even fit in ROM, they also occupy part of the HDDDec 09 20:34
cubexyzcoreboot is better anywayDec 09 20:35
MinceRof course, but oiaohm will never see thatDec 09 20:35
cubexyzthe other problem is lack of coreboot supportDec 09 20:35
MinceRmaybe hw manufacturers get off on screwing their customersDec 09 20:35
oiaohmTianoCore has to contain drivers.Dec 09 20:36
oiaohmMinceR:  starting the hardware to access harddrives and the like means using drivers.Dec 09 20:36
MinceRafaik it does not contain driversDec 09 20:38
oiaohmhttps://github.com/tianocore/tianocore.github.io/wiki/Driver-DeveloperDec 09 20:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | Driver Developer · tianocore/tianocore.github.io Wiki · GitHub [ http://ur1.ca/oc4hk ]Dec 09 20:38
oiaohmMinceR: TianoCore does contain some drivers and then provided means to write more.Dec 09 20:38
oiaohmMinceR: like it or not OS of some form starts the system.   Even old school bios has drivers.Dec 09 20:41
MinceRit's still not nearly as bloated as uefiDec 09 20:42
oiaohmcoreboot does not support the range of hardware TianoCore does.   Dec 09 20:42
cubexyzbtw coreboot (the one I built) fill into 256K Dec 09 20:43
cubexyzof course, it's for an older computer... BX chipsetDec 09 20:43
cubexyzs/fill/fit/Dec 09 20:43
cubexyzI'd say that's not too bloatedDec 09 20:43
cubexyzthat's with seabios addedDec 09 20:44
cubexyzthe real question is: can you build your own BIOS?Dec 09 20:45
oiaohmcubexyz: the coreboot you build was without signing right.Dec 09 20:45
cubexyzoiaohm, that's rightDec 09 20:45
oiaohmAdding signing that add on about 256 alone.Dec 09 20:45
MinceRwill signing protect your box from an attacker that has physical access?Dec 09 20:45
cubexyzwith the ECS board and BIOS_WP it's not even necessaryDec 09 20:46
cubexyzso you want BIOS_WP jumperDec 09 20:46
MinceRit's not necessary in any caseDec 09 20:46
oiaohmcubexyz: chromebook signing on coreboot prevents swaping bootloaders.Dec 09 20:46
MinceRit's just another case of lock-in with security theater as the excuseDec 09 20:46
oiaohmcubexyz: at least without informating user.Dec 09 20:46
cubexyzoiaohm, there's developer mode for thatDec 09 20:46
MinceRafaik you can swap bootloaders on chromebookDec 09 20:46
oiaohmcubexyz: yes but in developer mode you are informed the bootloader could be fake.Dec 09 20:46
MinceRhttps://www.chromium.org/chromium-os/ec-developmentDec 09 20:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.chromium.org | Chromium Embedded Controller (EC) Development - The Chromium Projects [ http://ur1.ca/n2hox ]Dec 09 20:47
oiaohmThe other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support.Dec 09 20:48
oiaohmand the means to load drivers as well as loader from FAT.Dec 09 20:48
cubexyzoiaohm, you're right, things are very bloatedDec 09 20:48
MinceR"A hardware-based mechanism is used to prevent the RO firmware from being changed. The most common design is to have an input grounded by a screw. When the screw is inserted, hardware write protect is enabled. This grounded signal can be read by the host chipset and EC. It is also routed to the “write protect” pin on any SPI flash chips containing firmware."Dec 09 20:48
oiaohmAnd there is a really horible reason for the FAT support.Dec 09 20:48
MinceRsomething the idiots who came up with uefi couldn't think ofDec 09 20:48
cubexyzbut it's not necessary.... especially if you're running old stuffDec 09 20:49
oiaohmTrue cubexyz old stuff correct new stuff not so much.Dec 09 20:49
MinceR024822 < oiaohm> The other thing that makes EFI bigger is FAT support.Dec 09 20:49
cubexyzwe don't have to just lie down an accept everything they throw at usDec 09 20:49
MinceRand what did i say about FAT support...Dec 09 20:49
MinceR(also think about whether bios needed that)Dec 09 20:49
oiaohmLot of newer cards don't have firmware chips.Dec 09 20:49
MinceRyes, and lots of broken hw comes with uefiDec 09 20:50
oiaohmThey are depending on the OS or bios to have thier firmware.Dec 09 20:50
MinceRso what?Dec 09 20:50
MinceRpeople can come up with stupid designsDec 09 20:50
oiaohmOr worse.Dec 09 20:50
MinceRdoesn't mean it has to be forced on everybodyDec 09 20:50
oiaohmNot exactly stupid.Dec 09 20:50
MinceRjust like cancerdDec 09 20:50
MinceRyeah, forcing winblows or macos on the user is so S-M-R-TDec 09 20:51
MinceRand so's permanently bricking the "computer"Dec 09 20:51
oiaohmThe reason for drivers in FAT on filesystem from EFI is to allow for something nasty.Dec 09 20:51
MinceRyeah, they love nasty thingsDec 09 20:51
oiaohmLets say you have a OS driver needing a particular firmware version.Dec 09 20:51
cubexyzoiaohm, I just recently discovered a work-around for Unix v5 ddDec 09 20:51
oiaohmNow you have more than 1 OS installed on that computer.Dec 09 20:51
cubexyzthe dd from that era had a 65536 byte limitDec 09 20:52
cubexyzI can fix that, since I have the sourceDec 09 20:52
cubexyz16-bit int from 1974 :)Dec 09 20:52
oiaohmMinceR: the sad reality is EFI fat support comes from EFI including the means to properly boot multi OSs.   Of course ODM don't want to have to do support on multi OS and Microsoft does not want users using something not Microsoft.Dec 09 20:53
MinceRoiaohm: we already had a reliable method to boot multi OS-esDec 09 20:54
oiaohmMinceR: not in cases of firmware conflit.Dec 09 20:54
MinceRand it involved not relying on intel's or m$'s broken codeDec 09 20:54
MinceRthen don't buy hw with braindead driversDec 09 20:54
oiaohmProblem here is when the hardware is new the drivers support can look fine.Dec 09 20:55
oiaohmIts when an OS is deprecated by vendor does these problem appear.Dec 09 20:55
cubexyzwhat if the manufacuturer disappears? we need the BIOS source for those motherboards tooDec 09 20:55
MinceRand even with that bullshit multiboot support users still find themselves relying on bootloaders and trickeryDec 09 20:55
MinceReven stubs signed by m$Dec 09 20:55
cubexyznot only the source, but the tools to actually build itDec 09 20:56
MinceRso this is yet another transparent excuseDec 09 20:56
cubexyzotherwise what you have is (un)planned obsolescenceDec 09 20:56
MinceRmaybe if uefi pushers put as much effort into uefi as they put into the excuses and into depriving users of choice, they would have ended up with a product worth usingDec 09 20:57
oiaohmMinceR: there is a cat fight going on.     Multiboot support in working EFI implementations stop the case different OS installs screwing up each other loaders.Dec 09 20:57
MinceRbut that's not the One Microsoft Way, is it?Dec 09 20:57
oiaohmMinceR: but there is a problem of ODM and Microsoft wanting it.Dec 09 20:58
MinceRand of course none of this would matter much if antitrust regulations were actually enforced in the USA and in the EUDec 09 20:58
oiaohmMost of the reasoning behind UEFI/EFI is sold.Dec 09 20:58
oiaohmsold/solid.Dec 09 20:59
MinceRor so you believeDec 09 20:59
oiaohmLike the PK by standard was always to be under the end users control.    Of course ODM and Microsoft did not want that.Dec 09 20:59
oiaohmSome of the worse of UEFI on users comes from Implementers not wanting to follow standard.Dec 09 21:00
oiaohmThe secureboot switch was a trick.Dec 09 21:00
MinceRthe entirety of uefi is a trickDec 09 21:00
oiaohmStandard to turn off secureboot is remove PK.Dec 09 21:00
MinceRit's a hoaxDec 09 21:01
MinceRit's a scamDec 09 21:01
oiaohmThe implementers put the secureboot switch in to hide the fact they were not offering PK removal.Dec 09 21:01
oiaohmNow everyone is getting up set because the secureboot switch has disappeared.  But what should have been in the first place is now being provided.Dec 09 21:02
MinceRpeople should be upset because they don't get to choose anything other than uefiDec 09 21:03
oiaohmThat problem is not secureboot.Dec 09 21:03
MinceReven with the switch, uefi is bloated, unreliable garbageDec 09 21:03
MinceRrestricted boot is part of the problemDec 09 21:04
oiaohmPlease note the swtich added extra code paths.Dec 09 21:04
MinceRbut uefi is bloated enough to have room for many more problems than thatDec 09 21:04
oiaohmThat create more of a problem.Dec 09 21:04
MinceRplease note that even without the switch, uefi was far more bloated than any alternativeDec 09 21:04
oiaohmRemoving the secureboot switch in fact reduced bloat.Dec 09 21:04
MinceRremoving restricted boot would also reduce bloatDec 09 21:05
MinceRas you've pointed out a while agoDec 09 21:05
MinceRand it would reduce bloat a lot more than removing the switch wouldDec 09 21:05
oiaohmRemoving switch removed just as much as removing the complete secure boot system.Dec 09 21:05
MinceRcitation neededDec 09 21:05
oiaohmIntel developer had it I wish I had recorded the link.Dec 09 21:06
MinceRthen again, with intel/m$ drone skills i can imagine that they could fuck up even such a simple thing as a switchDec 09 21:06
MinceRit's scary to imagine that such retards get to decide what gets into the firmware of our devicesDec 09 21:06
oiaohmDeleting the PK is absolute on and off.Dec 09 21:07
MinceRpoettering-level development skillsDec 09 21:07
oiaohmsecureboot switch cmos reset it could turn back on.Dec 09 21:07
MinceRhow difficult is it to have the swith on the UI simply delete the PK or restore it from ROM?Dec 09 21:07
MinceRs/ith/itch/Dec 09 21:07
oiaohmThe switch end up checking 30+ places to find out if secureboot should on or off.Dec 09 21:08
MinceRand whose fault is that?Dec 09 21:08
oiaohmCurrent UEFI to standard they have a simple unenrol PK option and a restore factory option.Dec 09 21:08
oiaohmOf course if PK is filled with zeros don't bother execututing the secureboot code.Dec 09 21:09
MinceRi prefer the "non-uefi" optionDec 09 21:09
MinceRdon't even bother including that codeDec 09 21:09
MinceRit only serves m$'s purposeDec 09 21:09
oiaohmIt is possible to build UEFI without secureboot code.Dec 09 21:09
MinceRlet them store it and run it on their systemsDec 09 21:09
MinceRwhy do ODMs not do that, then?Dec 09 21:09
cubexyzwindows 10 certification maybe?Dec 09 21:10
MinceRand again, the whole parade of excuses for uefi falls apartDec 09 21:11
MinceRit's all there because m$ is pulling the stringsDec 09 21:11
cubexyzI fear soDec 09 21:11
oiaohmbut the problem is you cannot inload this into motherboards  in most cases now due to ODM writing like  Intel Boot Guard public keys into hardware.Dec 09 21:11
MinceRjust like how none of the fascists could explain why any of the alleged security functionality of TPM needs the endorsement keyDec 09 21:11
MinceR(it doesn't, only the DRM functionality needs it, which is the whole point of the TPM)Dec 09 21:11
MinceRyes, intel boot guard is another part of the problemDec 09 21:12
oiaohmNIST is demarding TPM be socketed on to motherboard.Dec 09 21:12
oiaohmSo you can physically pull the bastard off.Dec 09 21:12
MinceRi demand the NIST be shut downDec 09 21:13
MinceRhaven't they done enough damage already?Dec 09 21:13
MinceRwe've had the technology that already does all the defensible functionality of the TPM for agesDec 09 21:14
MinceRit's called a smart cardDec 09 21:14
oiaohmMinceR: before NIST demard TPM chips were being soldered on to motherboard.Dec 09 21:14
MinceRso stop putting clipper chips on the mainboards and start using smartcards.Dec 09 21:14
oiaohmWith the possiblatiy of being embedded into the chipset.Dec 09 21:14
MinceRoiaohm: before TPM, smartcards existed.Dec 09 21:14
MinceRand before uefi, bios existedDec 09 21:15
MinceRand before systemd, unix existedDec 09 21:15
oiaohmMinceR: NIST demard takes TPM back to being like a smartcard security.Dec 09 21:15
MinceRand before hypePhones, real smartphones running open platforms existedDec 09 21:15
MinceRand before the w3c sold out, the open web existedDec 09 21:16
MinceRsee where i'm going with this?Dec 09 21:16
oiaohmReally we need NIST or China equal or EU equal to make the same demard over items like boot guard.Dec 09 21:16
cubexyzthe open web still existsDec 09 21:16
cubexyze.g. archive.orgDec 09 21:16
MinceRnot for long, if w3c and its owners get their wayDec 09 21:17
oiaohmLike the EU regulartor could step in and address some of these problems.Dec 09 21:17
MinceRnot for long with all this html5 hype going around and swallowedDec 09 21:17
MinceRwhen has the EU ever done anything substantial to protect its members/citizens' interests?Dec 09 21:17
MinceR(no, forcing windows xp n edition to be offered was not it)Dec 09 21:18
MinceR(and no, letting vista10 get away with forcing ie to be the default browser was not it either)Dec 09 21:18
MinceR(and no, their ongoing support for the orban regime isn't it, either)Dec 09 21:18
oiaohmEU forcing charges on phones not to keep on using different plugs.    EU support of Samba to protect it against Microsoft possible patent attacks.Dec 09 21:19
oiaohmMinceR: Of coruse like all regulators not everything they try is the right thing.Dec 09 21:19
msb_cubexyz: Regarding the FPGA 11/70:Dec 09 21:19
msb_Are FPGAs reprogrammable?Dec 09 21:19
msb_Is there X for Unix 5?Dec 09 21:19
msb_Can the 11/70 sim use an X86 on the bus for floating point?Dec 09 21:19
msb_Can it use large disk partitions -- 1 TB?Dec 09 21:19
msb_How does the integer speed compare with an 8-core AMD?Dec 09 21:19
MinceRneither of those are substantialDec 09 21:19
MinceRin the face of assaults like uefi and intel boot guard, those gestures are laughable.Dec 09 21:20
MinceRregulators have failedDec 09 21:20
MinceRand human society is failingDec 09 21:20
oiaohmregulators are reactive not proactive most of the time.Dec 09 21:20
MinceRyes, and they mostly only react to bribesDec 09 21:21
oiaohmLike the phone chargers at worst point there was over 5000 differnet plugs in use todo something as simple as charge a phone.Dec 09 21:21
MinceRand crApple still uses nonstandard plugsDec 09 21:22
MinceRand the EU isn't doing jack shit about thatDec 09 21:22
MinceRalso, standardizing the plugs doesn't help if warranty only holds if you use the charger supplied by the manufacturer of the device in the first placeDec 09 21:23
MinceRyou still get to keep all your power bricksDec 09 21:23
oiaohmMinceR: http://www.geek.com/apple/apple-will-be-forced-to-use-micro-usb-chargers-by-2017-1587862/Dec 09 21:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Apple will be forced to use micro USB chargers by 2017 | Apple | Geek.comDec 09 21:23
MinceRonly this time it's even more difficult to keep track of which one is supposed to go with which deviceDec 09 21:23
MinceRooh, 2017Dec 09 21:23
MinceRwill there still be humans by then?Dec 09 21:23
MinceRwill there still be an EU by then?Dec 09 21:23
oiaohmPlease note what I said about regulators being reactive not proactive.Dec 09 21:23
oiaohmApple is the last hold out not to go unified format.Dec 09 21:24
oiaohmI would love to see Apple users if the EU makes it offence to have a phone without USB changing.Dec 09 21:24
MinceRand yet i have yet to see crApple being punished for shitting on EU lawDec 09 21:24
oiaohmIts not like Apple was not given enough time to be conforming.Dec 09 21:25
MinceRthen again, if orban and his buddies are of any indication, the EU is run by crApple fanboysDec 09 21:25
MinceRso crApple will get away with it foreverDec 09 21:25
oiaohmMinceR: laws are also reactive not proactive normally due to legal constructs requiring a delay before being applied.Dec 09 21:25
MinceRat least in the EPP, showing off wealth and belonging to the cult by spending taxpayer's money on crApple crap is the hip thingDec 09 21:26
oiaohmApple plan to avoid usb port on their device is to be wireless by 2017Dec 09 21:26
MinceRthey could sell inert blocks of glassDec 09 21:27
MinceRthat way they won't need power or communicationDec 09 21:27
MinceRand the fanboys will still love it as long as it comes from crAppleDec 09 21:27
oiaohmLike the one where Apple is selling a warntary that they are legally required to provide free of charge by law in the EU.Dec 09 21:28
oiaohmhttp://www.geek.com/apple/belgium-isps-may-be-forced-to-block-access-to-apples-website-and-services-1586697/Dec 09 21:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.geek.com | Belgium ISPs may be forced to block access to Apple’s website and services | Apple | Geek.com [ http://ur1.ca/oc4ks ]Dec 09 21:29
oiaohmMinceR: I would prefer that we don't need to use the regulators to deal with these problems.   But I don't see Microsoft Apple or ODM behaving without at least 1 of the regulators mandating proper rights to consumers.Dec 09 21:30
MinceRi don't see how these problems will be solved, with or without regulatorsDec 09 21:32
MinceRat least as long as the regulators are in the pockets of those whom they're supposed to regulateDec 09 21:32
msb_Apple's website should be blocked until it restores those pictures (or was it a _video_) of the naked guy in bed having sex with the expensive cylindrical Mac.Dec 09 21:35
MinceRlolDec 09 21:35
MinceRthe ButtPlug Pro?Dec 09 21:35
msb_Damn I wish I had saved that!Dec 09 21:35
msb_Sounds about right.Dec 09 21:35
cubexyzyou guys don't buy any apple stuff anyway :)Dec 09 21:35
MinceRhas archive.org saved it?Dec 09 21:35
cubexyzI'm positive MinceR doesn't at leastDec 09 21:35
MinceRand you're rightDec 09 21:36
<--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)Dec 09 21:40
oiaohmMinceR: the regulators have improved EFI/UEFI to where it was going.   If the regulartors had not go involved by now the TPM chip would either been in the CPU or Chipset.   And we would still have the case were new secureboot motherboard that you cannot truly turn it off so you turn it off and at some random point in the future it turns back on.Dec 09 21:48
oiaohmMinceR: basically mandating PK removal means when you do turn secureboot off it stays off.Dec 09 21:48
MinceRwell, they haven't done a good jobDec 09 21:49
MinceR[u]efi is still worse than nothingDec 09 21:49
MinceRand i doubt you get to buy a business-class laptop without a TPMDec 09 21:49
MinceRor even without paying those responsible for its proliferationDec 09 21:50
oiaohmMinceR: even current day business class laptops have removable TPM chips due to NIST demardDec 09 21:51
oiaohmMinceR: older laptops the TPM chip is soldered on.Dec 09 21:51
oiaohmMinceR: the NIST demard includes that the system must boot with the TPM chip removed.Dec 09 21:52
MinceRyes, but accessing the socket voids your warrantyDec 09 21:53
MinceRand even if you've bought it and removed it, you've paid for the TPMDec 09 21:54
oiaohmIn fact no.Dec 09 21:54
MinceRthus rewarding its perpetrators for distorting the marketDec 09 21:54
oiaohmPart of NIST demard is that warranty cannot be voided because the TPM has been removed.Dec 09 21:54
MinceRindeed it won't beDec 09 21:54
MinceRit will be voided because you opened up the compartment to access it.Dec 09 21:54
MinceRor because you removed or damaged a sticker on a screw.Dec 09 21:55
oiaohmMinceR: the demard covers all that.Dec 09 21:55
MinceRdo i get refunded if i return the TPM?Dec 09 21:56
oiaohmNow if you insert a new TPM then they can void you warntanty.Dec 09 21:56
oiaohmUnfortunately NIST did not demard that you can return TPM chip for refund.Dec 09 21:56
MinceRsee, again they carefully avoided doing anything that mattersDec 09 21:57
oiaohmNIST declared removing TPM as part of basic diagnostics like removing the battery.Dec 09 21:57
oiaohmGood part about NIST rulings is they are in breach if they don't follow the ruling anywhere on earth to anyone.Dec 09 21:59
oiaohmIts also the bad part.Dec 09 21:59
oiaohmAs that makes NIST a huge sledge hammer.Dec 09 22:00
oiaohmBasically a sledge hammer to put in a thumb tack and wondering why you have a hole in wall.Dec 09 22:00
oiaohmMinceR: now if NIST ruled that we were allowed to replace motherboard firmware with out choosing as diagnostics on general PC hardware it would be great.Dec 09 22:02
oiaohmout/ourDec 09 22:02
msb_NIST also put out lots of false data to cover up the role of the US govt in blowing up the World Trade Center in 9/2001.Dec 09 22:03
cubexyzwithout good electronics knowledge of the motherboard chipsets you would never be able to write your own BIOS Dec 09 22:03
cubexyzit would take years to learn it allDec 09 22:03
oiaohmmsb_: check again you have the wrong groupDec 09 22:04
oiaohmmsb_: I know they start with NDec 09 22:04
msb_oiaohm: Sorry for disturbing your ignorance.Dec 09 22:04
MinceRoiaohm: "sure you can, it just won't boot!"Dec 09 22:05
oiaohmmsb_:  National Institute of Standards and Technology.   When it comes to building being destroyed it not their deparment.Dec 09 22:06
cubexyzit's not just NIST for motherboards eitherDec 09 22:08
cubexyzthere's the IEC and other onesDec 09 22:08
cubexyzIPC, JIS, probably other ones we don't even know aboutDec 09 22:09
msb_http://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/wtc/Dec 09 22:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | WTC Disaster StudyDec 09 22:09
msb_http://www.911research.wtc7.net/wtc/official/nist/index.htmlDec 09 22:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.911research.wtc7.net | 9-11 Research: The NIST InvestigationDec 09 22:09
oiaohmhttp://www.nist.gov/el/disasterstudies/ncst/index.cfm   Its a different N msb_Dec 09 22:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nist.gov | National Construction Safety Team (NCST) Advisory Committee [ http://ur1.ca/oc4m2 ]Dec 09 22:11
msb_oiaohm: NCST is a subdivision of NIST.  In the field of 9/11 research, the reports are known as NIST reports.Dec 09 22:17
oiaohmmsb_: check into how NCST members are appointed.Dec 09 22:17
oiaohmThe many body NIST has no control over it.Dec 09 22:17
msb_Why, nitpicker?Dec 09 22:18
oiaohmIt be correct it is important.Dec 09 22:18
oiaohmNCST being formed is extrealy odd.Dec 09 22:18
oiaohmmsb_:  FEMA is the offical USA department for building falures.    NIST job with building is todo simulations and testing not investagation.Dec 09 22:20
msb_Maybe to put another layer on the coverup.Dec 09 22:20
oiaohmThere is also a USA mil group that specialised in demolistions who could have written a report but did not.Dec 09 22:21
oiaohmPlease note the date NCST comes into existance October 2002Dec 09 22:23
oiaohmmsb_: so NCST first  case ever was investaging Sep 11.   This is putting a bunch of newbies on the job then wondering why they come up with garbage.Dec 09 22:25
MinceRwhat's their excuse for their failures around uefi? were those done by newbies too?Dec 09 22:29
msb_Some of the best 9/11 research info in existence:  http://cosmicpenguin.com/#911Dec 09 22:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-cosmicpenguin.com | Human Society That Works For EveryoneDec 09 22:29
oiaohmmsb_:  there are list of parties you could expect to see proper reports from.   Federal Aviation Administration, FEMA, Insurance, United States Department of Defense sub department Army Corps of EngineersDec 09 22:29
oiaohmmsb_: NCST was fairly much a poltical created thing to political poeple could look like they were doing something.Dec 09 22:30
oiaohmMinceR: NIST job is not mostly not to create stuff but do research and write standards.     When you have NIST doing stuff they are not set todo by political force like NCST and 9/11 investantion they balls it up every single time. Dec 09 22:34
oiaohmMinceR: basically you think UEFI is bad be thankful NIST did not decide to code it themselves.Dec 09 22:34
oiaohmmsb_: the thing that is very odd about Sep 11 is the fact there is no Army Corps of Engineers report that is findable.Dec 09 22:36
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674781057384890368Dec 09 22:36
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I'm a little confused by Microsoft hosting? I recently dumped Windows myself.Dec 09 22:36
oiaohmmsb_: for every embency bombs there is one.Dec 09 22:36
MinceRoiaohm: i don't see how it could be worseDec 09 22:37
oiaohmMinceR: Nist has attempted to implement code for stuff in the past and it contained 40 buffer overflow faults in 4kb of binary.Dec 09 22:39
MinceRhow do you know TianoCore doesn't?Dec 09 22:40
oiaohmMinceR: basically loto booting if the system booted at all if NIST had done it.Dec 09 22:40
MinceRsame thingDec 09 22:40
MinceRcan NIST muster stupider code monkeys than m$ (or intel with m$ brainwashing)?Dec 09 22:40
oiaohmTianoCore is fairly well audited.Dec 09 22:40
MinceRby whom?Dec 09 22:41
oiaohmMinceR: yes NIST can muster the worst code monkeys on earth.Dec 09 22:41
cubexyzit's all about controlDec 09 22:41
MinceRyupDec 09 22:41
cubexyzas in, you the computer user don't have any :)Dec 09 22:41
MinceRexactlyDec 09 22:41
MinceRbut apparently that's exactly what some users wantDec 09 22:41
oiaohmMinceR: TainoCore stuff is thrid party checked by coverity for USA mil requirements and a few other groups of other countries.Dec 09 22:42
oiaohmNIST history with their code they would not bother doing that.Dec 09 22:42
oiaohmMinceR: basically you don't ask NIST to code anything if you want it to work.Dec 09 22:43
-->WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrightsDec 09 22:43
MinceRchecked, and then what?Dec 09 22:43
oiaohmMinceR: bug reported opened and fixed as wellDec 09 22:43
MinceRoiaohm: i don't ask m$ or m$-brainwashed people to code anything either.Dec 09 22:43
oiaohmMinceR: basically you can find evidence of TainoCore auditing in the bugreports and fixes.Dec 09 22:44
oiaohmNote I said fairly well audited.   Not perfectly audited.Dec 09 22:44
oiaohmSo there is still a lot of room for improvement with TainoCore quality controls.Dec 09 22:45
MinceRespecially considering that such automated tools won't check the designDec 09 22:46
oiaohm100 percent stupid things like straight up buffer overflows automated tools don't let slide.Dec 09 22:47
oiaohmPerfect auditing process is mathematically proven secure stuff.    Expensive and time consuming to produce.Dec 09 22:48
MinceRand they aren't interested in that anywayDec 09 22:48
MinceRwhat they're interested in is locking consumers into OSes full of security holes and backdoors, the better to surveil and oppress themDec 09 22:49
oiaohmmathematically secure would most likely take 5 to 6 years to have all the required testing framework in place with a team of 40 working around the clock.Dec 09 22:49
oiaohmMinceR: when I say Expensive and time consuming I really do mean it.Dec 09 22:50
MinceRand a few millennia to build computer systems powerful enough to deal with TianoCore-level of bloatDec 09 22:50
MinceRiirc time required to analyze grows exponentially with code complexityDec 09 22:50
oiaohmPlease note I said 5 to 6 years to get the required testing framework in place not how long it would take to run the testing framework.Dec 09 22:52
oiaohmEven old school bios chips never were  mathmatically secure.Dec 09 22:52
MinceRat least they weren't pathologically overcomplicatedDec 09 22:52
cubexyzKISS Principle Dec 09 22:53
MinceRand there weren't nearly as many hoops to jump through to get your OS to bootDec 09 22:53
MinceRcubexyz: don't expect a uefi/cancerd apologist to understand thatDec 09 22:53
oiaohmTo be truthful xt were simple.Dec 09 22:53
oiaohmMinceR: but modern day CPU and chipsets are not simple.Dec 09 22:53
MinceRand yet booting an OS is still easy to do on them, if they have BIOSDec 09 22:54
MinceRput your code in the MBR, it gets loaded and runDec 09 22:54
cubexyzin XT era it was still hard to upgrade the BIOS, even though it was simpleDec 09 22:54
cubexyzEEPROMs? I thinkDec 09 22:54
oiaohmEFI without secureboot is straight forwards MinceR.   Place loader in directory in boot partition.Dec 09 22:54
MinceRi think EPROMsDec 09 22:55
MinceR(the ones with the quartz window under the stickerDec 09 22:55
MinceR)Dec 09 22:55
MinceRoiaohm: far from itDec 09 22:55
cubexyzMinceR, maybe just ROM chipsDec 09 22:55
oiaohmMinceR: I have made a loader to play tetris in EFI.Dec 09 22:55
MinceRoiaohm: see, that's the sort of thing EFI shouldn't focus onDec 09 22:55
MinceRcubexyz: or thoseDec 09 22:56
oiaohmMinceR: I have also made a Loader ot pay tetris from MBR.Dec 09 22:56
oiaohmEFI one was cleaner.Dec 09 22:56
cubexyzon Amiga 500 you got a ROM chip kit for upgradesDec 09 22:56
oiaohmAt least I was not hidding sections of the program in hopefully unused sectors.Dec 09 22:56
MinceRoiaohm: if there are multiple loaders in that directory, which one gets run?Dec 09 22:56
MinceRthe MBR is not "hopefully unused"Dec 09 22:56
oiaohmMinceR: between MBR and first sector of first partition there were unsed sectors/sometimes used sectors by different loaders and items that went into MBR.Dec 09 22:57
MinceRand your primary loader can't fit in the MBR?Dec 09 22:58
MinceRperhaps it shouldn't be trying to do so muchDec 09 22:58
oiaohmMinceR: when its a 400 level game with changing graphics it kinda does not fit.Dec 09 22:58
MinceRthe MBR is not for 400 level games with changing graphics.Dec 09 22:59
cubexyzBIOS should be simple... inititialize chips and boot main OSDec 09 22:59
oiaohmMinceR: each loader in EFI goes per directory and setting choosed default.Dec 09 22:59
MinceRgames are not loaders.Dec 09 22:59
MinceRthe environment for running loaders should not be designed for running games.Dec 09 23:00
cubexyzactually the Amiga did that tooDec 09 23:00
oiaohmThe game executable code fitted in 512 of the MBR.Dec 09 23:00
MinceRespecially not if it leads to a landfill-load of bloat like TianoCore.Dec 09 23:00
cubexyzsplash screen comes up, then the rest of the game loadsDec 09 23:00
oiaohmMinceR: it was the graphics that was the problem.Dec 09 23:00
MinceRdoesn't matterDec 09 23:00
oiaohmMinceR: yes it was a loader.Dec 09 23:01
MinceRif the whole thing doesn't fit in the MBR, put it elsewhere and put something in the MBR that loads that.Dec 09 23:01
oiaohmMinceR: just not loading an OS.Dec 09 23:01
MinceRyou could even use a filesystem of your choice, put the data in a file and then put its logical address in the MBR and have that code load the fileDec 09 23:01
MinceRwithout knowing the filesystemDec 09 23:01
MinceRor you could reserve a partition for it and point the code in the MBR at that.Dec 09 23:02
cubexyzseabios would fit into 128K and the rest of coreboot would fit into another 128K making a 256K image Dec 09 23:02
oiaohmMinceR: EFI is just simpler because you put all the loader stuff in 1 file and the firmware takes care of getting it into ram.Dec 09 23:03
oiaohmNo need to do individual hacks and work arounds.Dec 09 23:04
cubexyzcheck it out:Dec 09 23:04
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/gigabyte-coreboot-sample.romDec 09 23:04
MinceRoiaohm: again, confusing 'how much the user has to do in a particular use case' with simplicity of designDec 09 23:05
MinceRoiaohm: also, the CPU not knowing what partitioning schemes or filesystems look like is not a "hack" or a "workaround", it's proper, flexible designDec 09 23:05
oiaohmMinceR: there have been issues of differnet loaders from different OS butting heads reading from file systems.Dec 09 23:05
MinceRif it did, you could not change eitherDec 09 23:05
MinceRjust like how uefi forces you to use FAT, PE and CAB.Dec 09 23:06
oiaohmBefore EFI.Dec 09 23:06
MinceRoiaohm: never happened to meDec 09 23:06
cubexyzthe splash screen was about 16KDec 09 23:07
oiaohmTo be correct I have used EFI to install 3 different Linux systems on same harddrive with there own versions of grub.Dec 09 23:07
cubexyzand there's still a fair amount of unused space in thereDec 09 23:07
oiaohmMinceR: basically there are things bout EFI that are nice about a file system been choosen to store loaders instead of a single sector.Dec 09 23:08
cubexyzone can use qemu to run coreboot on emulated hardwareDec 09 23:08
MinceRthere's still 1 grub that gets startedDec 09 23:08
MinceRand you can chainload the others if you wantDec 09 23:08
MinceRoiaohm: forcing you to use a particular partitioning scheme and filesystem? yeah, so niceDec 09 23:08
MinceRoiaohm: locking you into a particular implementation for loading a file from the filesystem you can't fix bugs in? that's very nice tooDec 09 23:09
MinceRthe whole point for getting the firmware loader simple was to avoid bugs and offload as much work as possible to stuff you can change laterDec 09 23:09
MinceRs/for/of/Dec 09 23:09
oiaohmWith old bios we already had cases to install updates in some of them of having to use fat formated USB keys to their standard.Dec 09 23:10
MinceR"bioses got some things wrong so let's got those things wrong everywhere!"Dec 09 23:10
cubexyzyou can build coreboot without any of thatDec 09 23:10
MinceRthe uefi design philosophy is really sound, as you can see.Dec 09 23:10
oiaohmcoreboot supports a loader partition mode as well.Dec 09 23:10
MinceRs/got t/get t/Dec 09 23:10
MinceRactually, "some bioses got some things wrong so let's get those things wrong everywhere, and call it 'standard'!"Dec 09 23:11
oiaohmcoreboot support using a ext2/ext3 partition to store loaders.Dec 09 23:11
MinceRjust like cancerd's "winblows got these things wrong so let's break them in */linux and force the brokenness on everybody!"Dec 09 23:12
MinceRat least it isn't FAT.Dec 09 23:12
cubexyzthe BIOS doesn't need to know about FATDec 09 23:12
oiaohmcoreboot was really the first to support storing hardware drivers in a partition on harddrive.Dec 09 23:12
cubexyzwell, ok maybe seabios does, I'm not sureDec 09 23:12
oiaohmcoreboot is more optional than EFI design.Dec 09 23:13
MinceRwell, obviouslyDec 09 23:13
MinceRthe whole point of efi is to eliminate optionsDec 09 23:13
cubexyzI don't see anything related to FAT in seabios thoughDec 09 23:13
MinceRtake away all control from the userDec 09 23:13
cubexyzdon't forget one can do all sorts of BIOS experimenting with qemuDec 09 23:14
oiaohmcubexyz: seabios has an option of self firmware updating.   If you add that then it has a fat driver to read usb keys.Dec 09 23:14
cubexyzyou can even run linux distros on an emulated qemu machineDec 09 23:14
MinceRoiaohm: what could possibly go wrong?Dec 09 23:15
cubexyzor xenix, or msdos, or a ton of other thingsDec 09 23:15
cubexyzeven minixDec 09 23:16
oiaohmMinceR: the attempts to be OS netural in BIOS updating have resulted in a lot of things going wrong.Dec 09 23:16
oiaohmMinceR: including fat drivers in BIOS images.Dec 09 23:16
cubexyzBIOS should be OS-neutralDec 09 23:16
cubexyzwhat do you want, a winBIOS?Dec 09 23:16
oiaohmMinceR: worse fat drivers that see a long file name lock up.Dec 09 23:16
MinceRcubexyz: that's what uefi people want, yesDec 09 23:17
oiaohmRemember before UEFI Microsoft had patents on reading long filenames so BIOS updating software embedded in BIOS did not include that functionality.Dec 09 23:17
MinceRfirmware written by people who believe there's only winblows, only will be winblows, only winblows is possible, and the user must be forced to only ever use winblowsDec 09 23:17
MinceRoiaohm: see, this is yet another reason why using m$ formats is retardedDec 09 23:18
oiaohmMinceR: why was fat choosen and its not because it Microsoft.Dec 09 23:18
oiaohmMinceR: it is in fact the size of code you need to read it.Dec 09 23:18
MinceRbecause the people involved are idiotsDec 09 23:19
MinceRonce again, bios manages to work without knowing any filesystemDec 09 23:19
oiaohmOut of the majority of filesystems out there Fat requires some of the smallest code to read.Dec 09 23:19
MinceRif a supposed replacement can't do that then it's not a good replacementDec 09 23:19
MinceR>majorityDec 09 23:19
MinceRdoesn't matterDec 09 23:19
MinceRand even if there were _no_ filesystems requiring less code to read, one could be developedDec 09 23:19
oiaohmThere is only 1 or 2 that are better but those are equally pain in ass.Dec 09 23:20
MinceRoh really?Dec 09 23:20
MinceRwhich of them are encumbered by m$ patents?Dec 09 23:20
oiaohmNone of them are encumbeded by m$ patents but none of the are read/write.   yes read only filesystems.Dec 09 23:20
MinceRso what?Dec 09 23:21
cubexyzpeople could have used CP/M on the IBM PCDec 09 23:21
oiaohmMinceR: tar as a file system straight on a disc was an option.Dec 09 23:21
cubexyzsome didDec 09 23:21
MinceRwell, they didDec 09 23:21
MinceRjust stolen code that was crapped all overDec 09 23:22
MinceRoiaohm: probably ar alsoDec 09 23:22
MinceRmaybe even cpioDec 09 23:22
oiaohmMinceR: reading tar takes less than fat.Dec 09 23:22
oiaohmcpio takes more.Dec 09 23:22
oiaohmPlease note tar without compression.Dec 09 23:22
MinceRtar does not compress, afaikDec 09 23:22
cubexyzoiaohm, PDP-11 doesn't even have a BIOS, and it managed just fineDec 09 23:22
MinceRheresy! :>Dec 09 23:23
cubexyzso this wintel dependence... it's not goodDec 09 23:23
oiaohmtar depending on version can compression files inside it by setting the compress bit flag.Dec 09 23:23
oiaohmMinceR: problem is the compress bit does not tell you want compression.Dec 09 23:23
MinceRweirdDec 09 23:23
MinceRnobody uses it, thoughDec 09 23:23
oiaohmMinceR: I have found the odd tar file with compression bit set.Dec 09 23:25
oiaohmMinceR: those are pains in ass.Dec 09 23:25
MinceRdo you have a tar that supports it?Dec 09 23:25
oiaohmThe problem is it from the filesystem.Dec 09 23:26
oiaohmUnix file system support a compression flag.Dec 09 23:26
oiaohmIf the file is compressed when tar sees it the thing just stores it.Dec 09 23:26
MinceRisn't that transparent to filesystem users?Dec 09 23:26
cubexyzdoesn't everyone just use the z and j flags?Dec 09 23:27
cubexyzI know I doDec 09 23:27
MinceRapparently notDec 09 23:27
MinceRthough i suspect those files are relicsDec 09 23:27
cubexyzin the olden days there was just arDec 09 23:27
oiaohmMinceR: when tar is running in backup mode transparent decompression on some of theses old unixs are off.Dec 09 23:27
oiaohmMinceR: so it fairly much what beep of a system did this tar file come from.Dec 09 23:28
cubexyzvery old tar didn't have compressionDec 09 23:28
oiaohmcubexyz: very old tar does this.  It stores the file flags and if the file was compress heven help you.Dec 09 23:28
oiaohmTar does not promisse when it stores a file that it will make sure its uncompressed first.Dec 09 23:29
cubexyzcompress came laterDec 09 23:29
cubexyzin Unix v7 there's no compressionDec 09 23:29
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674798284830056448Dec 09 23:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID.Dec 09 23:30
cubexyzyou have to be more specificDec 09 23:30
schestowitz"What confusing is how are they even able to enforce it on US soil? Seems like international law violation."Dec 09 23:30
cubexyzand compress itself is a johnny-come-latelyDec 09 23:34
cubexyzlike 4.3BSD eraDec 09 23:34
cubexyzthen we had the whole LZW algorithm with "patent pending"Dec 09 23:36
cubexyzthere's no universal archiver eitherDec 09 23:38
cubexyzonly specific data formats for different eras in timeDec 09 23:39
MinceRthere's a Unified Extensible Firmware Interface, thoughDec 09 23:39
cubexyzI guess ASCII is the closest thing to a universally understood formatDec 09 23:39
MinceRit will boot any OS you want, as long as it's windows.Dec 09 23:40
MinceRthere's also a Universal Operating SystemDec 09 23:40
MinceRit will run anything you want as pid1, as long as it's systemd.Dec 09 23:40
cubexyzwhat universally archiving system is there really?Dec 09 23:43
cubexyzprintouts? Dec 09 23:43
MinceRstone inscriptionsDec 09 23:45
MinceRmonoliths, pyramidsDec 09 23:46
MinceR¯\_(ツ)_/¯Dec 09 23:46
schestowitz> Roy,Dec 09 23:53
schestowitz> Dec 09 23:53
schestowitz> We have you on the list for a review unit. Now that we have completedDec 09 23:53
schestowitz> the Qubes partnership and are shipping Pure OS ver. 2 we feel confidentDec 09 23:54
schestowitz> that we are sending out our best OS with our best hardware.Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> Joanna is at the Parliament today, and I imagine very busy and hard toDec 09 23:54
schestowitz> reach, but we will message her and see if you can speak by phone.Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> We are very excited about this partnership as it continues into the future.Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> Dec 09 23:54
schestowitz> All the best,Dec 09 23:54
schestowitzWe might have a Qubes interview coming...Dec 09 23:54
<--WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has left #techrights ("this sucks ima go..")Dec 10 00:03
cubexyzlol EULA:Dec 10 00:08
cubexyzEULA : Exercising Unique Lawyer Arguments to shirk any and every responsibility and/or liabilityDec 10 00:08
MinceR:>Dec 10 00:10
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674820283182817281Dec 10 00:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @EconomistRadio @schestowitz Sure but doesn't do Snowden any good.:/Dec 10 00:24
schestowitzThere will be massive protests today in Munich and it would be useful to show poliicians' support for theseDec 10 00:35
schestowitz(EPO)Dec 10 00:35
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674828200531374080Dec 10 00:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz What is openssh? Using a cloud just seems awfully ignorant.Dec 10 00:50
oiaohmMinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started.  Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives.   Yes we have to change away from old school MBR and BIOS because new items had outgrown them.     Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in even a 4kb MBR.Dec 10 00:55
oiaohmMinceR and cubexyz that does not say UEFI could not be improved or replaced with some better.Dec 10 00:56
cubexyzcan't you just partition the drive?Dec 10 00:59
cubexyzthe whole MBR thing was from MSDOSDec 10 01:02
oiaohmcubexyz: kinda not.   MBR if sector size is 512 max drive size is 2TB if sector size is 2KB max drive size is 8TB.Dec 10 01:03
oiaohmcubexyz: reading and processing MBR was built into standard PC BIOS.Dec 10 01:03
cubexyzyou're thinking wholly in Microsoftian termsDec 10 01:04
cubexyzalthought I'm not sure what other alternatives existDec 10 01:05
cubexyzwasn't there syslinux and extlinux?Dec 10 01:06
oiaohmLinux kernel support a large number of platforms different options to MBR.Dec 10 01:06
oiaohmMost screwed up around 2TBDec 10 01:06
oiaohmThis is why around EFI this was https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GUID_Partition_Table developed.Dec 10 01:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | GUID Partition Table - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 10 01:06
oiaohmcubexyz: section of PC bios interpert calls depend on number of sectors on drive to stay under particular limit values.    Basically 512 sector size bios interpts can only address a 2TB drive.Dec 10 01:09
oiaohmcubexyz: to use the drivers embedded behind PC Bios your drive size is crippled.   Solutions like corebios directly loading Linux and other OS and UEFI/EFI loaders allows you to use firmware provided drivers to access larger harddrives.Dec 10 01:12
cubexyzthere's the 32-bit sector limitDec 10 01:19
cubexyzof course, I haven't hit that limit myselfDec 10 01:20
oiaohmcubexyz: http://stanislavs.org/helppc/int_13.html  this is the problem interpert.Dec 10 01:21
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stanislavs.org | int 13Dec 10 01:21
oiaohmcubexyz: modern harddrive design and controls have a 128bit sector limit.Dec 10 01:21
cubexyzI think my largest drive is an 80 gigDec 10 01:22
oiaohmBasically hardware has evolved to be larger than PC BIOS is designed to cope with.Dec 10 01:22
cubexyzI assume the CSM can handle large drives?Dec 10 01:23
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cubexyzif you don't use UEFI there must be an alternativeDec 10 01:24
<--amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)Dec 10 01:24
oiaohmcubexyz: bad news  if  you mean UEFI Compatibility Support Module the CSM module alone does not promise the larger drive size support.Dec 10 01:25
cubexyzalso Linux has the nogpt boot argumentDec 10 01:25
oiaohmThe way to run old OS on new super huge harddrives would be to UEFI load a hypervisor like Xen and have it break the huge drive up into make fake smaller drives.Dec 10 01:26
cubexyzthis seems very short sightedDec 10 01:30
oiaohmcubexyz: that is a horrible one.   gpt drive has a wrapper MBR.    Due to the MBR not being the full size of the drive some PC BIOSs throw temper tantruim and refuse to boot because MBR has to be invalid.Dec 10 01:31
oiaohmcubexyz: so the nogpt flag is required for that old hardware.Dec 10 01:31
cubexyzright, but it can workDec 10 01:31
oiaohmYes a lot of that old hardware will not boot if you put  a large new drive in them.Dec 10 01:31
cubexyzI'll try it sometime :)Dec 10 01:32
oiaohmUnless you tell the drive to lie to be smaller.Dec 10 01:32
oiaohmSo you have to be mode switching your drives and hopefully never screw it up.Dec 10 01:32
oiaohmcubexyz: basically like it or not we have to leave PC BIOS behind at some point.Dec 10 01:33
oiaohmMost likely we have used PC BIOS well past it use by date.Dec 10 01:34
cubexyznot to mention my old boards have IDE Dec 10 01:35
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oiaohmcubexyz: that I understand the fact that I cannot say on PC BIOS why I am more focused on pushing stuff to make UEFI workable.Dec 10 01:39
oiaohmsay/stayDec 10 01:40
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cubexyzsyslinux v4 has support for old bios Dec 10 01:45
cubexyzI figured someone would address the problemDec 10 01:46
cubexyzso the question becomes 'which distros use syslinux >= 4Dec 10 01:46
oiaohmfrom an hardware point of view it gets problem.   Having to report 1 size so bios works then another size so OS can access complete drive just opens up doors to trouble.Dec 10 01:48
cubexyzhow about a card that soups up your old bios?Dec 10 01:51
cubexyzor just use some SSD to IDE thingDec 10 01:52
cubexyzthere's always some answer to these types of problemsDec 10 01:53
cubexyzremember Seagate DiskWizard?Dec 10 01:56
cubexyzperhaps there is a linux versionDec 10 01:56
oiaohmcubexyz: those wizard were about making stuff lie.Dec 10 02:10
oiaohmAnd of course you would run into cases where it did not stop lieing after the OS was loaded.Dec 10 02:10
oiaohmcubexyz: basically best solution fix the firmware so it can cope with it properly.Dec 10 02:11
oiaohmhttp://techreport.com/news/29410/dell-toshiba-and-lenovo-utilities-expose-pcs-to-more-attacks   This makes me wonder with history like this can we really trust ODM to be in charge of firmware.Dec 10 05:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techreport.com | Dell, Toshiba, and Lenovo utilities expose PCs to more attacks - The Tech Report [ http://ur1.ca/oc5cz ]Dec 10 05:04
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/674886622459133954Dec 10 05:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Complete bullshit @schestowitz https://t.co/qMKF9CAa5QDec 10 05:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.businessinsider.com | Microsoft wants to train you to Linux - Business InsiderDec 10 05:08
schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/6903957Dec 10 05:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The @linuxfoundation won't allow #torvalds to criticise #microsoft for much longer http://betanews.com/2015/12/09/microsoft-linux-foundation-azure-certification/ http://www.networkworld.com/article/3013473/microsoft-subnet/microsoft-to-offer-a-linux-based-cert-for-azure-admins.htmlDec 10 05:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> betanews.com | Microsoft partners with The Linux Foundation for 'Linux on Azure' certificationDec 10 05:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.networkworld.com | Microsoft to offer a Linux-based cert for Azure admins | Network WorldDec 10 05:16
schestowitz"That they admitted defeat…"Dec 10 05:16
schestowitzWould you personally interpret it that way?Dec 10 05:16
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896452783579141Dec 10 05:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita https://t.co/KADdN5xXBfDec 10 05:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo protest in less than an hour. Nice and sunny in #munich https://t.co/ycP7YKswroDec 10 05:24
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674896876597039105Dec 10 05:25
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @GreyBservices @schestowitz @FOSSpatents What a scandal! EPO staff should not contact anyone without permission!Dec 10 05:25
oiaohmschestowitz: not exactly Microsoft profiting from Linux Foundations money making game.     So torvalds will still criticise Microsoft for a while yet.Dec 10 05:25
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/AdV007/status/674899793097957376Dec 10 05:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AdV007: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Yup: #FBI - killing US tech industry for your safety! #backdoor #encryptionDec 10 05:35
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674900306505760768Dec 10 05:37
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents doesnt this sound like that they want to regulate personal lives of their staff?Dec 10 05:37
schestowitzEven illness (or #epo staff) is not allowed, or at least strongly discouraged  http://techrights.org/2015/12/06/epo-sick-leave-gaming/Dec 10 05:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | No Wonder Staff of the EPO Gets Sick of the Management, Which Games Sickness Statistics in Order to Delude the World | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc5f5 ]Dec 10 05:38
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901256368988160Dec 10 05:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID.Dec 10 05:44
schestowitz" I first read that as Kardashians. Kazakstan, not much better."Dec 10 05:44
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674901321837887488Dec 10 05:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID.Dec 10 05:44
oiaohmschestowitz: you have to remember when Linus gave the finger to Nvidia 1 it was at a Nvidia sponsered event 2 Nvidia was/and still is chipping into the Linux foundation.Dec 10 05:49
schestowitz> old:Dec 10 05:50
schestowitz> https://christianengstrom.wordpress.com/kopimism-level-1-the-creation/Dec 10 05:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-christianengstrom.wordpress.com | A Kopimist Gospel — Book 1: The Creation | Christian Engström, PiratDec 10 05:50
schestowitzAre people taking this seriously? IMHO as self-discrediting as "Church of emacs/gnu"Dec 10 05:50
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903117402497024Dec 10 05:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @schestowitz @KrapulaPhD @FOSSpatents great post Dr. Roy. Kind of amazed or surprised or whatever you call it!Dec 10 05:51
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/GreyBservices/status/674903412174024704Dec 10 05:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@GreyBservices: @KrapulaPhD @schestowitz @FOSSpatents pretty much right Krapula. EPO is behaving like a spy agency.Dec 10 05:51
schestowitz"Worse actually, bleh.:/"Dec 10 05:52
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/674904367108128768Dec 10 05:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Well technically you can be poor and still find some of the best curry spices for cheap. Just know where to look.Dec 10 05:52
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/ppetrovdotnet/status/674905245940588544Dec 10 06:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ppetrovdotnet: Https is not enough! Http is old, too old! https://t.co/4WeWp15Te7Dec 10 06:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "I used to work for a company I'm sure you have heard of -- Two letters, starts with a G." https://t.co/cmjQAhkHRM #geDec 10 06:04
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/674905514661257216Dec 10 06:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @wallstreetita @POLITICOEurope https://t.co/0oATTOYi2VDec 10 06:04
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #epo staff protest "Thursday 10 December, starting from the Pschorrhöfe building at 12h." 5 minutes from now https://t.co/4DQH4gIQPY #suepoDec 10 06:04
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MinceR065512 < oiaohm> MinceR and cubexyz I miss the big reason why EFI started.  Its called th 2TB and larger harddrives.   Yes we have to change away from old school MBR Dec 10 09:08
MinceR                 and BIOS because new items had outgrown them.     Also supporting accessing across an 8Tb and larger drive need bigger code than what would fit in Dec 10 09:08
MinceR                 even a 4kb MBR.Dec 10 09:09
MinceRyet another poor excuseDec 10 09:09
oiaohmMinceR: No its not a poor excuseDec 10 09:14
oiaohmMinceR: The reality is the time of the old BIOS design is over.Dec 10 09:14
oiaohmMinceR: using 4kb size breaks lot of the older OS as well.Dec 10 09:15
oiaohmEven using the 2KB solution has  problems.Dec 10 09:16
MinceRapparently the time of the general purpose computer is over as wellDec 10 09:16
MinceRand the time of computers that do what the user/owner wantsDec 10 09:16
oiaohmJust because the time of PC BIOS is over does not mean that computers doing what the user wants is over.Dec 10 09:17
oiaohmOf the idea of general purpose computer.Dec 10 09:17
MinceRwell, according to you, storage devices getting bigger is sufficient justification for uefiDec 10 09:17
oiaohmDoes mean there is a battle to be fort.Dec 10 09:18
MinceRfrom which it follows that bigger storage devices mean that computers doing what the user wants is over.Dec 10 09:18
oiaohmNot at all.Dec 10 09:18
MinceRit's absurd, but it's what you saidDec 10 09:18
oiaohmI said EFI was started because of that problem.Dec 10 09:18
oiaohmOr course coreboot also addresses the problem.Dec 10 09:18
oiaohmTrying to say with BIOS is just going to become more and more not workable.Dec 10 09:19
oiaohmThe fixes to extend BIOS will break it compadiblity with older OS as well.Dec 10 09:20
MinceRit's impossible to fit the bootloader in the first 2TB of the drive? i doubt that.Dec 10 09:21
MinceRif all else fails, they could just add a replaceable flash memory card on the mainboard to hold some of the boot codeDec 10 09:21
oiaohmIt is as the drives get bigger and you are needing to use 32 bit modes to access stuff.Dec 10 09:21
oiaohmBasically you out grow what you can do in a single sector.Dec 10 09:22
MinceRwe already had to fit stuff in the first whatever bytes of the HDD and it workedDec 10 09:23
oiaohmThe reality for a long time the complete loader has not fitted in the MBR.Dec 10 09:23
oiaohmInstead it been a stub loader.Dec 10 09:24
oiaohmSomething like coreboot loading directly loading the loader could be anywere in a on a PB or larger drive.Dec 10 09:29
oiaohmOr in a motherboard flash device.Dec 10 09:29
oiaohmMinceR: coreboot obeys doing what the user wants as long as user can in fact install it.Dec 10 09:30
oiaohmWay more than BIOS does.Dec 10 09:30
oiaohmSo someone making arguement for boot guard and other things opened up path for coreboot makes sense.Dec 10 09:31
MinceRand the stub loader still fits thereDec 10 09:31
oiaohmEFI gone with put all loaders in a 1 partition somewhere on drive.    Key words somewhere on drive.Dec 10 09:32
oiaohmSo you can technically put EFI loader partition after any ammount of space.Dec 10 09:32
MinceRand by doing so it sets not only the filesystem but also the partitioning scheme in stoneDec 10 09:33
oiaohmBut a lot of implementations of UEFI and EFI are broekan.Dec 10 09:33
MinceRnot caring about the future is the way of the future!Dec 10 09:33
oiaohmStaying with BIOS sets using MBR limitations.Dec 10 09:34
oiaohmChosing coreboot would be about choosing to be able to use what ever partition scheme you like.Dec 10 09:34
oiaohmMinceR: but you have been arguement why cannot we stay with BIOS.    The reality is your points against EFI a lot of them are a reason not to stay with BIOS.Dec 10 09:36
oiaohmThe time of bios is over.   The time to fight for freedom in the it replacement.      Preferably to have more freedom than we already had.Dec 10 09:38
oiaohmMinceR:  like it or not I do care about the future and this is why I say the time of BIOS is over.    No point keeping on attempting to prop a  dead horse and pretending its a live horse.Dec 10 09:39
MinceRit's still better than uefiDec 10 09:40
MinceRmaking things even worse is not a solutionDec 10 09:40
oiaohmUEFI is techically a live horse in the race.Dec 10 09:40
oiaohmSo like or not it techically can win.Dec 10 09:40
MinceRtechnically uefi is the end of the PCDec 10 09:40
oiaohmNo uefi as it developed has become less and less restrictive in implementations.Dec 10 09:41
MinceRbecause only allowing winblows to be booted is "less restrictive"?Dec 10 09:41
oiaohmThat is gone from modern forms where you can replace the secureboot keys.Dec 10 09:42
oiaohmThis is also your problem MinceR you arguements don't keep up with the current state of UEFI.Dec 10 09:42
oiaohmCould with enough presume UEFI boot secuirty be lighted even more yes it could.Dec 10 09:43
oiaohmprsume/  pressureDec 10 09:44
MinceRyour problem is that you ignore m$'s agenda and what they're doing about itDec 10 09:47
oiaohmThis is one of your fall back arugments and normally a sign that you have not done your homework.Dec 10 09:49
oiaohmMinceR: can you explain why newer forms UEFI standard allows loaders be multi signed.   One combination signed by Microsoft and signed by your own company/distrobutionDec 10 09:50
oiaohmThis does not match to following Microsoft agenda.Dec 10 09:51
MinceRapparently ignoring m$'s logo requirements was my homeworkDec 10 09:51
MinceRgood to knowDec 10 09:51
oiaohmTo be correct you did not read the MS Logo requirements completely either.Dec 10 09:52
oiaohmIt mandates that the UEFI implmentation conforms the most modern form.Dec 10 09:52
oiaohmThe form that makes it possible to strip the MS KEK out.Dec 10 09:52
MinceRwhat about ARM?Dec 10 09:53
oiaohmEven on ARM microsoft mandates the most current version but there has not been as far as a know any new Windows 10 devices using UEFI.Dec 10 09:53
oiaohmThe older MS Logo requirements mandated older UEFI those did not mandate that you could change the PK so you could be locked out.Dec 10 09:54
oiaohmSo MinceR things are not perfectly going in Microsoft favour either.Dec 10 09:55
oiaohmOnly major mother of issue I can see in current day UEFI for Microsoft favor is the possiblity of installing firmware updates reseting the PK/KEK settings.   Reason why I am not exactly happen the section of UEFI covering firmware updating not giving users enough control.Dec 10 09:58
oiaohmUEFI firmware update  also under current UEFI design ship out based on platform MinceR.     Now that is a true issue that could undermine the idea of a general computer than you can boot any OS.  Dec 10 10:00
oiaohmMinceR: basically you are spending so much time focused on secureboot that you have missed the truly leathal problem.Dec 10 10:01
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oiaohmMinceR:  The most sick arguement for why end users were not to be given PK and KEK setting rights came from HP not Microsoft.     The arguement was cost.   That right HP wanted to keep the number of KEK enteries to a bare min so the could ship motherboard with the smallest flash possible.    Dec 10 10:15
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674969986247561216Dec 10 10:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz No, there are actually such things as unpaid Microsoft fanboys.Dec 10 10:16
schestowitzWell, if they're paid by Microsoft, I wouldn't call them "fans"Dec 10 10:17
oiaohmYep the term shills is used for those that a paid.Dec 10 10:17
oiaohmhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill  Yes it an official employment title in some places.Dec 10 10:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Shill - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 10 10:18
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/AJimenez1988/status/674971533916377088Dec 10 10:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@AJimenez1988: @schestowitz Some of them are. But then again I have met people who supported Microsoft. And it actually cost them money.Dec 10 10:19
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MinceRoiaohm: you know the relationship between hp and m$, right?Dec 10 10:45
schestowitzit's not as strong as the one with DellDec 10 10:46
schestowitzAll companies in tech are connected to MicrosoftDec 10 10:46
schestowitzEVen non-tech, if they use WindowsDec 10 10:46
schestowitzHP isn't among the worst, even though many execs there came from MicrosoftDec 10 10:46
oiaohmMinceR: HP was even saying that Microsoft not to have a KEK for OS and KEK for UEFI drivers instead just have one.   It was a good mailing list read as you saw HP and Microsoft developers spitting chips at each other.Dec 10 10:57
oiaohmMinceR: yes there is a releationship but ODM cost saving attempts from HP will see HP fight with Microsoft.Dec 10 10:57
MinceRnot the attempts to turn our computers into garbage, thoughDec 10 11:00
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oiaohmMinceR: supporting only 1 OS per model would make ODM support staff be able to be cheaper and dumber.Dec 10 11:16
oiaohmMinceR: yes the issue people updatting Windows 7 and 8.1 laptops/computer to Windows 10 are running into as well.Dec 10 11:16
oiaohmMinceR: Microsoft want people only to run Microsoft OSs.    Lot of ODM would perfer us to only run 1 OS.Dec 10 11:17
oiaohmMinceR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYb97uKCldI  good watch.  This is from 2014.    Attackers do want to get into bios.Dec 10 11:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | DEF CON 22 Summary of Attacks Against BIOS and Secure Boot - YouTubeDec 10 11:20
schestowitz"if you have a wikidot login, I can invite you to the epomustgo website"Dec 10 11:48
schestowitz"there are still some relevant infos on there"Dec 10 11:48
schestowitzTo read or to write? I wouldn't want to go with the words "epomustgo" because we want only the management to goDec 10 11:48
schestowitzInternational andDec 10 11:53
schestowitz DutchDec 10 11:53
schestowitz unionsDec 10 11:53
schestowitz federationsDec 10 11:53
schestowitz EPSU and FNVDec 10 11:53
schestowitz for sending aDec 10 11:53
schestowitz letter to the DutchDec 10 11:53
schestowitz Prime Minister MrDec 10 11:53
schestowitz Rutte denouncingDec 10 11:53
schestowitz the abuse ofDec 10 11:53
schestowitz immunity by theDec 10 11:53
schestowitz EPO;Dec 10 11:53
schestowitz Dutch ParliamentDec 10 11:53
schestowitz (Tweede Kamer)Dec 10 11:53
schestowitz for recently votingDec 10 11:53
schestowitz aDec 10 11:53
schestowitz motionDec 10 11:53
schestowitz concerningDec 10 11:53
schestowitz theDec 10 11:53
schestowitz adherence by theDec 10 11:54
schestowitz European PatentDec 10 11:54
schestowitz Organisation toDec 10 11:54
schestowitz internationalDec 10 11:54
schestowitz legislation.Dec 10 11:54
schestowitz 23 European andDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  6 Dutch MPs forDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  continuing to askDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  questions to theDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  EU CommissionDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  and to the DutchDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  governmentDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  concerning theDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  current crisis atDec 10 11:54
schestowitz  the EPO.Dec 10 11:54
MinceRjust letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based onDec 10 11:55
oiaohmMinceR: unfortunately EPO is the worst design ever.   EPO management gets to directly put forwards changes to the legislation they have to follow.Dec 10 11:58
MinceRtell schestowitz that :>Dec 10 11:58
oiaohmMinceR: so changing the management could start fixing the legislation.Dec 10 11:58
oiaohmBut I would not hold out hope.Dec 10 11:59
MinceRwhat about the legislation that is the basis for the existence of the epo?Dec 10 11:59
MinceRunitary patent bullshit, iircDec 10 11:59
MinceRalso, even if the management could fix it in a dictatorial sort of way, it would be better to do so democratically, with clueful representativeDec 10 12:00
MinceRsDec 10 12:00
MinceRunfortunately, we don't have those eitherDec 10 12:00
oiaohmUnitary patent bull crap was legislation was preposed by the EPO in the first place.    The EPO was first founded to draft the rules for patents in the EU.Dec 10 12:00
MinceRall we have is a huge hairball of corruption and the EPPDec 10 12:00
MinceRicDec 10 12:00
oiaohmSo EPO is the nightmare of regulator and rule writer as the one group.Dec 10 12:01
oiaohmMinceR: so Ideal should be cut EPO in two to start off with.Dec 10 12:02
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schestowitz[16:55] <MinceR> just letting the management go wouldn't fix the atrocious legislation the epo is based onDec 10 12:57
schestowitzEPO management breaks its own rulesDec 10 12:57
schestowitz!google epo illegal judge suspensionDec 10 12:57
TechrightsBot-tr[1] - The 'Sherlocks' of EPO/Spin-Doctoring Pretend That All of the EPO's ... | http://techrights.org/2015/10/16/crushing-dissent-at-epo/Dec 10 12:57
TechrightsBot-tr[2] - New Heise Article Makes It Clear That 'Nazi'-Themed Accusations ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/24/new-heise-article-makes-it-clear-that-nazi-themed-accusations-against-the-suspended-board-judge-were-insufficiently-substantiated/Dec 10 12:57
TechrightsBot-tr[3] - The Bogus Narrative Floated by EPO Management: Our Judges and ... | http://techrights.org/2015/11/23/epo-scapegoat-tactics/Dec 10 12:57
TechrightsBot-tr[4] - Exclusive: The Enlarged Board of Appeal Complains About ... | http://techrights.org/2014/12/09/exclusive-eboa/Dec 10 12:57
MinceRschestowitz: do they get punished for it?Dec 10 12:58
schestowitzthey can break their own rules and nobody seems to enforce theseDec 10 12:58
schestowitzMinceR: noDec 10 12:58
schestowitzthat's the pointDec 10 12:58
MinceRwhy not?Dec 10 12:58
schestowitzthey ignore the courtsDec 10 12:58
MinceRsee, the problem is that they get to ignore the courtsDec 10 12:58
schestowitzand their own rulesDec 10 12:58
MinceReponiaDec 10 12:58
schestowitzyeahDec 10 12:58
schestowitzit wasn't this bad in the pastDec 10 12:59
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schestowitzsomeone sent me docs of staff repsDec 10 14:45
schestowitz(not from them, not with consent...)Dec 10 14:45
schestowitz>> Can you send these over?Dec 10 14:45
schestowitz> Dec 10 14:45
schestowitz> I guess that they would want it that way, even though any furtherDec 10 14:45
schestowitz> publication would quite probably worsen their situation. I think itDec 10 14:45
schestowitz> would be better if you QUOTED selected portions from the documents,Dec 10 14:45
schestowitz> rather than dumping all documents online. I can supply you with OCRdDec 10 14:45
schestowitz> versions if you wish.Dec 10 14:45
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Really"In the future we’ll show how the EPO even takes advantage of cancer in the family. " Really? And then you are surprised that the BBC Journalist does not respond? Do you really think they could cite your blog when you also write this crap? C'mon ...Dec 10 16:09
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schestowitzhe didn't even wait until I showed the evidenceDec 10 16:58
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cubexyzthere isn't "one OS to rule them all" even for ODMsDec 10 17:11
cubexyzclearly chromebooks have sold in the millionsDec 10 17:11
cubexyzand there's android of courseDec 10 17:11
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675001605499015168Dec 10 19:02
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Please #follow @rights_info - excellent Twitter resource. Just under 10k. Would be great to get it over 10k on this "Human Rights Day".Dec 10 19:02
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EnnemmJust want to help correcting address for Swedish delegation ("Contacting national delegations")Dec 11 03:56
EnnemmBeatrice Ask is no longer minister of justice, it's Morgan Johansson. Best way of contacting is via registrator of department of justice: ju.registrator@regeringskansliet.seDec 11 03:57
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r_schestowitz> Received these from a source I need to protect but I'm free to share, soDec 11 04:26
r_schestowitz> if you like, you can publish 1 or more of them. I won't publish themDec 11 04:26
r_schestowitz> just because I won't have time to do another EPO post this week andDec 11 04:26
r_schestowitz> probably not even next.Dec 11 04:26
r_schestowitzThank you. That first one will need to be shrunk a bit of pixelated.Dec 11 04:26
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675248753675272192Dec 11 04:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season @schestowitz https://t.co/ibAy8PI7DKDec 11 04:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.theguardian.com | GCHQ Christmas puzzle likely to be worked out before festive season | Technology | The GuardianDec 11 04:45
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r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675260122587930624Dec 11 05:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Know anything about the Open Invention Network #OIN? https://t.co/dS5KkyRQ2U cc:@schestowitz #FOSS #OpenSource #GNU/#LinuxDec 11 05:30
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.openinventionnetwork.com | Home - Open Invention NetworkDec 11 05:30
r_schestowitzI'm not a big fanDec 11 05:30
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Sheikh_al_Touar/status/675263079589011456  https://twitter.com/TheJusticeDept/status/672503183697182721Dec 11 05:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Sheikh_al_Touar: @TheJusticeDept @NewYorkFBI @EDNYnews @IRSnews @LorettaLynch @schestowitz European Patent Office + FIFA = much the same! USA investigations?Dec 11 05:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7Dec 11 05:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.justice.gov | Sixteen Additional FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy and Corruption | OPA | Department of JusticeDec 11 05:40
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@TheJusticeDept: 16 Additional #FIFA Officials Indicted for Racketeering Conspiracy & Corruption https://t.co/mXJ6QEORZZ https://t.co/Yz3RLQnZk7Dec 11 05:40
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/675263475707441152Dec 11 05:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Alternatives? Unless one has deep pockets…once you start developing a project someone'll want to sue—even to stop it https://t.co/DujumDe4NNDec 11 05:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT I'm not a big fanDec 11 05:41
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r_schestowitz> " The take-home message (once again) is that well-studied, provablyDec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> secure encryption schemes that achieve strong definitions of securityDec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> (e.g., authenticated-encryption) are to be preferred to home-brewedDec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> encryption schemes."Dec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> Dec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> https://eprint.iacr.org/2015/1177Dec 11 05:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-eprint.iacr.org | Cryptology ePrint Archive: Report 2015/1177Dec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> Dec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> I expect at a future date a similar report on M$ OpenSSH derivativeDec 11 05:51
r_schestowitz> since it is also using homespun encryption.Dec 11 05:51
r_schestowitzFools will put their private keys on WindowsDec 11 05:51
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675272871195774976   https://twitter.com/Aluenvey/status/675273006625644545Dec 11 06:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz I don't seriously turning off the spying features really turns it off. But maybe that's me being a cynic.Dec 11 06:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Aluenvey: @schestowitz Use Media Goblin, it has not Youtube Red.Dec 11 06:18
r_schestowitz":Nice to see @DavidAllenGreen of @Preiskel mentioned in Private Eye 1407 re his representing @schestowitz (European Patent Office dispute)."Dec 11 07:11
r_schestowitzPrivate Eye (again)Dec 11 07:11
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675286772776099840   https://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675287022194565124Dec 11 07:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: I'm currently unable to do this. Can anyone help @schestowitz ? The item is on p.18 of the current Private Eye. https://t.co/0mRxfHrosbDec 11 07:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Blue_Wode can you please take a photo and send to me?Dec 11 07:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @schestowitz Unfortunately I can't at the moment, but I've put out a request for help. I'm pretty confident someone will get it for you. :)Dec 11 07:15
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/sean_t_ellis/status/675287851567812608Dec 11 07:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJTDec 11 07:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sean_t_ellis: @Blue_Wode @schestowitz Here you are. https://t.co/ZcV4xLaJJTDec 11 07:22
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Blue_Wode/status/675288074276900864Dec 11 07:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Blue_Wode: @sean_t_ellis Many thanks! @schestowitzDec 11 07:22
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidBrooke_IP/status/675290914701602816Dec 11 07:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidBrooke_IP: .@PrivateEyeNews has picked up the @WorldIPReview story on the EPO's legal threat levelled against @schestowitz https://t.co/q2BpswFkuLDec 11 07:34
r_schestowitztechrighjs in leading paperDec 11 07:34
MinceRhttp://i.imgur.com/l4JqUyu.pngDec 11 07:45
cubexyzI don't think snickers will put Hitler in their commercialsDec 11 07:48
cubexyzjust a hunchDec 11 07:49
oiaohmcubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snickers  Interesting point is possible that Hitler had a snickers at some point thinking it was in production in 1930Dec 11 07:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Snickers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 11 07:59
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/675299337346416640Dec 11 08:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: Open Source Owns the Web @schestowitz https://t.co/gVXRcnVBE0Dec 11 08:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bsdmag.org | Open Source Owns the Web | BSD MAGDec 11 08:06
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675303984429682689Dec 11 08:21
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @zoobab @schestowitz This says it all about he journalistic ethics of IAM.Dec 11 08:21
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309167570247681Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: My work defending @schestowitz against the daft and illiberal legal threat of @EPOorg is featured in p 18 of @PrivateEyeNewsDec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675309275019943936Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Pic?Dec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: @zeno001 @schestowitz You can buy it and support great journalism ;-)Dec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/schestowitz/status/675310070876491776Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @zeno001 @DavidAllenGreen https://t.co/5X3IYR2XLGDec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | EPO Scandals in Private Eye Again | TechrightsDec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309652196900868Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: Some of the correspondence in that case has been posted by @schestowitz at https://t.co/VmvKgi2Hjt You may find it amusing.Dec 11 08:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | How the EPO Twisted Defamation Law in a Failed Bid to Silence Techrights | TechrightsDec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675309828726792193Dec 11 08:44
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675310433948016640Dec 11 08:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @DavidAllenGreen @schestowitz Damn you for always being right... :-)Dec 11 08:45
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112Dec 11 08:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zeno001: @schestowitz Thanks!Dec 11 08:48
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MinceR"Call a man a faggot and offend him for a day. Teach a man to SJW and he'll be offended for a lifetime. "Dec 11 11:56
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675310920126570497Dec 11 12:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: In essence, @EPOorg threatened an action in defamation when, as a matter of law, it was not able to. It was amusing to point this out.Dec 11 12:17
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r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675311362877337600Dec 11 12:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It was such a basic howler, it was odd that @EPOorg even made the legal threat, let alone in such an aggressive way.Dec 11 12:18
DentistDon't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ...Dec 11 12:18
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DavidAllenGreen/status/675312841709195266Dec 11 12:18
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DavidAllenGreen: It is basic rule of defamation law that public bodies cannot sue in defamation. But none of @EPOorg's (then) lawyers realised this.Dec 11 12:18
DentistSo, a complete reworking of the smile in a top German practice (3000-10.000 EUR, if not more) how would it be not considered a bribe in any other European country? Not in the magical word of EPONIA! Where the President can count on the unwavering and smiling support of countries untouched by the progress of modern destistry: Macedonia! Albania! Croatia! Bulgaria! San Marino!Dec 11 12:18
r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/zeno001/status/675311168286810112Dec 11 12:19
r_schestowitzhi DentistDec 11 12:19
MinceRMolvania?Dec 11 12:19
r_schestowitz[17:18] <Dentist> Don't know if you were already aware of that, but someone finally pointed to the passage in the minutes of the Administrative Council of EPO in which - suddenly and magically - the delegates last year were given FREE dental treatment! Have a look at the last comments at the IPKat. And I can assure you that when in Munich you say "send the bill to the European Patent Office", the dentist will ALWAYS find something ...Dec 11 12:19
r_schestowitzAny docs?Dec 11 12:19
r_schestowitzDid IP Kat publish good proof and context?Dec 11 12:20
r_schestowitzI follow Merpel but have not noticed thisDec 11 12:20
DentistHave a look at the comments at the IPKat. Points 45 and 46 of the minutes.Dec 11 12:20
r_schestowitzwhich article?Dec 11 12:20
Dentisthttp://ipkitten.blogspot.de/2015/12/merpel-pays-brief-visit-to-eponia.html?showComment=1449838746530#c5140086158519968232 and further commentsDec 11 12:21
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.de | The IPKat: Merpel pays a brief visit to EponiaDec 11 12:21
r_schestowitzthanksDec 11 12:21
r_schestowitznot read the latest comments yetDec 11 12:21
DentistMy pleasure.Dec 11 12:22
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r_schestowitzwowDec 11 12:24
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r_schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/675369030937636865Dec 11 12:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @fattoquotidiano @ilgiornale @Corriereit @LaGabbiaTw @reportrai3 @Serv_Pubblico @VirusRai2 @redazioneiene https://t.co/UdQbo7yGYgDec 11 12:38
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Contacting National Delegations to Complain About the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/RaCEvR3L0z #epoDec 11 12:38
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schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/6907052Dec 11 15:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for #Ubuntu 16.04 LTS http://news.softpedia.com/news/unity-7-online-search-is-being-dropped-for-ubuntu-16-04-lts-497425.shtml #gnu #linux #canonicalDec 11 15:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Unity 7 Online Search Dropped for Ubuntu 16.04 LTS [ http://ur1.ca/oc8x7 ]Dec 11 15:19
schestowitz"Finally!"Dec 11 15:19
schestowitz"Yes'Dec 11 15:20
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schestowitz"YES! :)"Dec 11 15:35
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Happensanyone here?Dec 11 17:24
XRevan86Happens: Affirmative.Dec 11 17:25
HappenscoolDec 11 17:25
HappensJust curious about this site,so I am just exploring.Dec 11 17:26
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MinceRhttp://i.imgur.com/getsunT.jpgDec 11 17:30
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Happens_Hmm, IRC not practical when browseing in a different tab... At least on this apparatus.Dec 11 17:31
MinceRdedicated irc clients tend to work better than web clientsDec 11 17:31
MinceRespecially weechat and irssiDec 11 17:31
Happens_iOS on this tablet, possibly this WE.Dec 11 17:32
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HappensIs Dr. Schestowitz always this productive?Dec 11 17:34
Happens(also: not going to log in again if I get shot out again - in case that happens I wish you all a fne weekend!)Dec 11 17:35
Happensalready shot down again?Dec 11 17:37
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HappensOkay, have a fine weekend, I might have some time after having skimmed a few more or those articles.Dec 11 17:38
HappensBest wishes to all!Dec 11 17:38
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schestowitzhttp://www.informationweek.com/cloud/microsoft-red-hat-alliance-shows-growing-cloud-influence/a/d-id/1323013Dec 11 19:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.informationweek.com | Microsoft, Red Hat Alliance Shows Growing Cloud Influence - InformationWeek [ http://ur1.ca/oc9bj ]Dec 11 19:22
schestowitzSeveral other Linux suppliers signed up, though they tended to be the likes of Melco Group, Xandos, Linspire, and LG Electronics. (Image: julos/iStockphoto). It was never clear to me whether they were paying Microsoft royalties or whether Microsoft was "Dec 11 19:22
schestowitzXandros didDec 11 19:22
cubexyzpaid microsoft royalties for...?Dec 11 19:25
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cubexyzMicrosoft itself pays royalties I would imagineDec 11 19:36
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schestowitz#EPO “Doesn't Actually Deny That There's a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-fast-track-project/Dec 12 02:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | New Private Eye Article Says EPO “Doesn’t Actually Deny That There’s a Fast-Track Project Allowing Big Firms to Queue-Jump” | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oc9x0 ]Dec 12 02:53
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schestowitzA Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff http://techrights.org/2015/12/12/epo-money-motive/Dec 12 04:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | A Day After Massive EPO Protest Benoît Battistelli Tries Using Money to Appease Staff | Techrights [ http://ur1.ca/oca09 ]Dec 12 04:08
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cubexyzmore customers complaining about windows 10...Dec 12 22:11
cubexyzalso there's some talk of a google/microsoft "war"Dec 12 22:11
cubexyzsomething about the Microsoft browser not playing nice with google searchDec 12 22:11
cubexyzhopefully I'll get a few converts out of itDec 12 22:12
cubexyzthere was also one customer who told me (in rather vague terms) that windows 10 wiped out files on his computerDec 12 22:13
cubexyzit's not that I want to deal with the win10 nonsense... it's just helping customersDec 12 22:20
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BACKUP
oiaohmcubexyz: that is quite a good history of the core tree of x11 that is missing the accelerated x11 versions but otherwise complete.Dec 06 00:37
cubexyzoiaohm, fill me inDec 06 00:39
cubexyzyou mean Accelerated-X the proprietary port?Dec 06 00:39
cubexyzI think that's why XFree86 was createdDec 06 00:40
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673300746432065537Dec 06 00:44
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @slimekat Only today, :) has been in the drawer for a few years. Just heard of Replicant thanks to @schestowitz .May need new battery.Dec 06 00:44
schestowitzI want to try it on the wife's S2, but couldn't find an image when I triedDec 06 00:44
oiaohmcubexyz:  Accelerated-X was one of the proprietary forks  with acceleration.   Its that stuff that is missing from your history.Dec 06 00:54
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673303391024623616Dec 06 01:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz @slimekat There is a lot to dl but all speedy. https://t.co/dPWpMUclpb Just the I9100 row. Then Heimdall bits.Dec 06 01:01
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> redmine.replicant.us | ReplicantImages - ReplicantDec 06 01:01
cubexyzoiaohm, I would need more info before I could add it to the timelineDec 06 01:08
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oiaohmcubexyz: To be correct its a lot more information.   Accelerated-x comes forwards to current day.Dec 06 01:18
oiaohmcubexyz: but most of the forks were dead by 2004Dec 06 01:19
cubexyzthe web site says "since 1994"Dec 06 01:32
cubexyzalso says Accelerated-X was developed by Xi Graphics 'from stratch'Dec 06 01:33
cubexyzscratchDec 06 01:34
cubexyzthere's a linux demo, might be interesting to check outDec 06 01:36
cubexyznot to mention there's SuSE's XGL and Redhat has AIGLXDec 06 01:41
MinceRafaik AIGLX was not a separate x server thoughDec 06 01:42
MinceRthat's what made it different from XGLDec 06 01:42
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/history-of-x.txtDec 06 01:42
cubexyzslightly amendedDec 06 01:42
MinceRhttps://i.chzbgr.com/full/8591479296/hB7B3AD54/Dec 06 02:09
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/yo-dawg-i-heard-you-like-fees.jpgDec 06 02:11
cubexyzMinceR, that just looks weirdDec 06 02:11
MinceR:)Dec 06 02:12
*tessier is now known as teamtessierDec 06 03:17
*teamtessier is now known as tessierDec 06 03:17
oiaohmI had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it.   http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot   Every PK has a expire date.Dec 06 03:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux JournalDec 06 03:24
oiaohmSomething fun when you buy a computer with UEFI they don't tell you what date is the expire of the PK.Dec 06 03:24
cubexyzsecure boot sucksDec 06 04:52
cubexyzI can't run Plan 9, I can't run AROS?Dec 06 04:52
cubexyzit's bullshitDec 06 04:52
cubexyzgive me a motherboard that does not have secure bootDec 06 04:54
cubexyzLinux distributors shouldn't need to sign with MicrosoftDec 06 05:00
cubexyzeven on old PDP-11 systems there was a bunch of different operating systemsDec 06 05:07
cubexyzDOS-11, DSM-11, RSX-11, Ultrix, Unix even TRIPOSDec 06 05:09
oiaohmcubexyz: a motherboard having secure boot does not mean it has to contain a Microsoft KEK.Dec 06 05:12
cubexyzI heard that OEMs are fusing SHA256 public keys into the southbridgeDec 06 05:14
oiaohmcubexyz: that is boot guard the firmware protection key.   Not the PK of secureboot.Dec 06 05:16
oiaohmThe PK of secure boot has a built in time expire factor.Dec 06 05:16
oiaohmSo push the computer clock far enough forwards and the installed  PK will fail.Dec 06 05:17
cubexyzthis is why coreboot works on older Thinkpads and outdated intel motherboards but not new onesDec 06 05:20
cubexyzso that is definitely a problemDec 06 05:20
cubexyzI don't want to mess around with PKs, KEKs and other stuff like thatDec 06 05:21
oiaohmTo  truth PK and KEK make sense with the number of boot loader level infections that have existed over the years.Dec 06 05:23
cubexyzno Microsoft bullshit wantedDec 06 05:23
cubexyzI can secure my own BIOSDec 06 05:23
oiaohmPK in most motherboards you are free to swap with you own.Dec 06 05:23
cubexyzI have a programmer, and can check every byte of itDec 06 05:23
oiaohmThen with you own PK you are free to choose if you have Microsoft KEK or Ubuntu or Someone elese.Dec 06 05:24
cubexyzyes, but what if I want Plan 9 or some other obscure OS?Dec 06 05:24
oiaohmcubexyz: No PK and the motherboards by default UEFI design will boot anything.Dec 06 05:24
oiaohmas long as it a EFI loader of course.Dec 06 05:25
oiaohmsecureboot current design can be annoying but not that much of a problem.Dec 06 05:25
oiaohmBoot guard stuff with keys written into fuses that is another matter.Dec 06 05:25
cubexyzI might have to use old hardware in some cases Dec 06 05:26
cubexyzI don't think Plan 9 supports USB keyboard, at least I'm not sureDec 06 05:26
oiaohmcubexyz: boot guard worries me more.Dec 06 05:26
cubexyzitDec 06 05:27
oiaohmLike everything in secureboot in the form of keys ie the PK and KEK you can replace.   So if some attack breaches one of those keys you can remove them from you system.Dec 06 05:27
cubexyzit's not a problem stockpiling old stuff, there must be a million P3 motherboards that no one wantsDec 06 05:27
oiaohmboot guard written into fuses what happens if the signing key gets in the wild.Dec 06 05:27
oiaohmSo you might not be able to change the firmware but some hostile person can.   what fun.Dec 06 05:28
cubexyzwe are dependent on OEMs making motherboards that we likeDec 06 05:28
cubexyzno, the bad guys can't really brick my old computersDec 06 05:29
cubexyzeven if they blanked out the BIOS I am ready :)Dec 06 05:29
cubexyzalso as you pointed out there is Raspberry PI 2Dec 06 05:31
cubexyzI'm sure that does not have secure boot right?Dec 06 05:31
cubexyzI think it uses u-bootDec 06 05:32
oiaohmThis is why I don't fear UEFI secureboot that much.    https://lwn.net/Articles/571031/  People don't know u-boot and other things.Dec 06 05:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lwn.net | Verified U-Boot [LWN.net]Dec 06 05:34
oiaohmYes u-boot you can run into a signed boot problem cubexyzDec 06 05:34
oiaohmWorse u-boot does not have  design to bipass it like UEFI has if you have boot gaurd like stuff protecting u-bootDec 06 05:35
cubexyznot on Raspberry PI thoughDec 06 05:35
oiaohmRaspberry PI CPU does support signed firmware protection.Dec 06 05:36
oiaohmin the 2Dec 06 05:36
oiaohmJust it not enabled.Dec 06 05:36
oiaohmcubexyz: basically a Respbery PI 2 is not that much different to a UEFI motherboard without PK or boot guard enabled even that it has the features.Dec 06 05:37
cubexyzno fans and no heat sinkDec 06 05:40
oiaohmThere are UEFI motherboards without fans or heatsinks.Dec 06 05:41
oiaohmcubexyz: https://wiki.linaro.org/ARM/UEFIDec 06 05:42
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.linaro.org | ARM/UEFI - Linaro WikiDec 06 05:42
oiaohmYep UEFI is on arm as well as x86Dec 06 05:42
cubexyznothing ATX thoughDec 06 05:42
oiaohmI understand the security requirements for boot guard the firmware.Dec 06 05:43
oiaohmWhat I don't understand is why the signing keys could not be placed in a block of flash with a physical write protect switch.Dec 06 05:44
oiaohmThis way if you wanted to you could replace the firmwareDec 06 05:44
cubexyzI can already do that thoughDec 06 05:44
oiaohmblow fuse links to record a signing key has other problems as well.Dec 06 05:45
oiaohmWhat if something blows a few more links.Dec 06 05:45
oiaohmSo this will mean more motherboards in the ruined pile.Dec 06 05:46
oiaohmcubexyz: I have always backed the idea that all firmware should have a write protect switch because users/makers don't update it all the time.Dec 06 05:47
cubexyzI'm pretty sure some motherboards had a jumper for thatDec 06 05:47
cubexyzolder onesDec 06 05:47
oiaohma lot had clear cmos settings jumper.Dec 06 05:48
oiaohmbut not a lock firmware switch.Dec 06 05:48
oiaohmOnly thing I know with lock firmware switchs is chromebooks.Dec 06 05:48
oiaohmThe thing to remeber is groups like the NSA are free to use any method the like to attempt to get there hands on signing half of a public key.Dec 06 05:50
oiaohmOnly way you can be sure you will know about a signing half breach is if you are the one in charge of it.Dec 06 05:51
cubexyzno, I'm sure that ECS motherboards had CLR_CMOS and BIOS_WP jumpersDec 06 05:51
cubexyzso there were 2 jumpers Dec 06 05:51
oiaohmI have never come in contact with an ECS brand motherboard.Dec 06 05:52
cubexyzhttp://www.ecs.com.twDec 06 05:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ecs.com.tw | NO TITLEDec 06 05:52
cubexyzanyway, they exist(ed)Dec 06 05:57
cubexyzmight be a pain finding oneDec 06 05:58
oiaohmcubexyz: interesting brand.   First one I have seen with physicaly switches for power and reset on the motherboard.Dec 06 05:58
cubexyzuseful :)Dec 06 05:58
cubexyzBIOS is also socketedDec 06 06:01
cubexyzbad guy can't do anything to the BIOS without physical accessDec 06 06:03
oiaohmThat is if the bios has a write protect switch.Dec 06 06:05
oiaohmphysical security on computers is still crap.Dec 06 06:05
oiaohmOk physical security for most computer is still crap.Dec 06 06:06
oiaohmsocketed TPM chips are since there is not a unified standard for them.Dec 06 06:06
oiaohmis hell.Dec 06 06:06
cubexyzolder computers had ROMsDec 06 06:06
oiaohmExactlyDec 06 06:07
cubexyzyou had to change the chip to upgrade the BIOS/firmwareDec 06 06:07
oiaohmAttackers had to have physical access to mess with the bios in the time of roms.Dec 06 06:07
oiaohmCome forwards to flash and attacker could in infect the BIOS with a program.Dec 06 06:07
oiaohmAll the boot guard stuff is avoiding the KISS idea.   If physical switch was added most of the boot guard stuff would be pointless.Dec 06 06:08
oiaohmcubexyz:  think about it how often do you change bios settings.   Maybe 1 a year if lucky.Dec 06 06:10
oiaohmFirmware is only really updated 1 or 2 a year.Dec 06 06:10
cubexyzon one computer I changed the settings a lotDec 06 06:11
oiaohmBut you would not call that normal cubexyzDec 06 06:11
cubexyzone machine was for msdos games and had "sound blaser emulation on/off"Dec 06 06:11
cubexyzno, not normalDec 06 06:11
oiaohmFor normal PC the firmware only need to be writeable of a max of 3 days a year.Dec 06 06:11
cubexyzwould BIOS write protect stop user from just changing the settings?Dec 06 06:12
oiaohmDepends where the settings are stored.Dec 06 06:12
oiaohmLike if BIOS and CMOS settings are stored in the same flash chip it could.Dec 06 06:13
oiaohmOf course it would not cost that much more to have a flash chip each for that.Dec 06 06:13
cubexyze.g. my QDI motherboard has BIOS protect in CMOSDec 06 06:13
cubexyzbut I can turn it offDec 06 06:14
cubexyzbut that's different of courseDec 06 06:14
oiaohmYou want physical.Dec 06 06:14
cubexyzrightDec 06 06:14
oiaohmI have software for overwriting CMOS from boot disc.Dec 06 06:14
cubexyzI could also remove the BIOS chip and reprogram itDec 06 06:15
oiaohmOnce attack is physical you are screwed anyhow.Dec 06 06:15
cubexyzyesDec 06 06:15
oiaohmWhy because you can extend the BIOS by what cards have on them that you insert into slots.Dec 06 06:15
oiaohmremove and reprogram bios chip is a lot slower than adding a card.Dec 06 06:16
cubexyzit is, but I glued thumb tacks on mine :)Dec 06 06:16
cubexyzcoreboot stuff you knowDec 06 06:16
cubexyzzif socket would have been a lot better reallyDec 06 06:17
oiaohmI have used a forced boot card before.Dec 06 06:17
cubexyzMSI MS-7067 also has BIOS_WP jumperDec 06 06:18
cubexyzso they did exist, but were uncommonDec 06 06:18
oiaohmcubexyz: a force boot card forces a computer to come up even if it BIOS chip is removed.Dec 06 06:18
cubexyzniftyDec 06 06:18
oiaohmIn fact CPU and bios can be removed.Dec 06 06:19
cubexyzwhere do you get a card like that? And I assume it's PCI?Dec 06 06:19
cubexyzhow would the force boot card know how to initialize memory registers?Dec 06 06:21
oiaohmcubexyz:  you just mentioned why they are a pain and expensive.Dec 06 06:22
oiaohmEach forced boot card matchs to a motherboard or motherboard series.Dec 06 06:22
cubexyzah I seeDec 06 06:22
oiaohmOf course the reason why they can cope with missing cpu is they have a cpu on board.Dec 06 06:23
oiaohmSo they take control of the system from bus side.Dec 06 06:23
oiaohmcubexyz: rapid diagnose for warnarty repairs they exist for.   So no point send out a new motherboard if everything else in the system is bust right.Dec 06 06:24
cubexyzI know about Post cards, but this sounds like something a lot more elaborateDec 06 06:26
oiaohmcubexyz: there are 3 levels.Dec 06 06:28
oiaohmPost cards that just print out information that the system spits out all the time.Dec 06 06:29
oiaohmhttp://www.uxd.com/phdpci2.shtml   Items like this with a light microcontroller that can probe themselves.Dec 06 06:29
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.uxd.com | P.H.D. PCI 2 - Professional Hardware Diagnostics PCIDec 06 06:29
oiaohmthen the fine level what are forced boot cards that bring the system back to life allowing you todo data recovery simply.Dec 06 06:30
oiaohmfine/finalDec 06 06:30
cubexyzlooks expensiveDec 06 06:31
oiaohmNot only looks expensive.Dec 06 06:32
oiaohmphd pci2 is about ~800 USDDec 06 06:32
oiaohmAnd that is cheep compared to a force boot card.Dec 06 06:33
oiaohmcubexyz: forced boot cards start at about 1500 and go up normally you rent them as part of warnaty support agreement.Dec 06 06:34
oiaohmcubexyz: It quite a privilage to get to use a forced boot card.Dec 06 06:36
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MinceRhttps://i.imgur.com/oKS4a0M.jpgDec 06 10:32
MinceR042358 < oiaohm> I had forgot to mention something criticlal about the PK in secure boot why you need to be able to replace it.   Dec 06 10:32
MinceR                 http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/take-control-your-pc-uefi-secure-boot   Every PK has a expire date.Dec 06 10:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.linuxjournal.com | Take Control of Your PC with UEFI Secure Boot | Linux JournalDec 06 10:32
MinceRlike i said, uefi sucksDec 06 10:32
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oiaohmMinceR: the expire date is a key to bypass UEFI if you cannot access some form of UEFI configuration.   Once PK is expired it like you have deleted the PK key.Dec 06 10:49
oiaohmMinceR: basially UEFI has a designed in backdoor.Dec 06 10:49
oiaohmMinceR: but something like u-boot verified does not have a designed in backdoor.Dec 06 10:49
MinceRcalling uefi "designed" sounds like an overstatementDec 06 10:50
oiaohmMinceR:  The flaw was designed in.   First version of UEFI did not have a PK expire option.Dec 06 10:52
oiaohmNo encryption key should have a unlimited life.   That was forced by NIST requirements.Dec 06 10:54
oiaohmMinceR: like it or not somethings about UEFI were designed/mandated.Dec 06 10:54
MinceRthen booting should not require an encryption keyDec 06 10:55
MinceRwas the ludicrous bloated designed or mandated?Dec 06 10:55
MinceRs/ted/t/Dec 06 10:55
MinceRwas the extreme reliance on m$ formats designed or mandated?Dec 06 10:55
MinceRwas making winblows' idiotic practice of keeping the system clock set to local time (including DST) designed or mandated?Dec 06 10:56
MinceRs/)/& "standard"/Dec 06 10:56
oiaohmNIST is behind the mandation of signed loading.   This is why it appears in u-boot and stack of other solutions as well.Dec 06 10:58
oiaohmMinceR: system clock set to DST goes back to early Unix before MSDos existed.Dec 06 11:00
oiaohmMinceR: so if system clock should be DST, Time Offset or GMT goes back before Microsoft even made it first sale.Dec 06 11:01
MinceRand was fixed before even PCs existedDec 06 11:01
oiaohmNo it was not fixed before PC existed.Dec 06 11:02
MinceRuefi is supposed to be "modern", isn't it?Dec 06 11:02
oiaohmUEFI in fact does not make any choice on what system time should be.Dec 06 11:02
oiaohmMinceR: all Unixs you can choose what ever you wish the system clock is set as.Dec 06 11:03
oiaohmMinceR: also http://superuser.com/questions/482860/does-windows-8-support-utc-as-bios-time  Windows does have means of locking clock to UTC/GMT/DSTDec 06 11:05
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-superuser.com | Does Windows 8 support UTC as BIOS time? - Super UserDec 06 11:05
oiaohmProblem Microsoft makes it a complete pain in the ass to set that is all MinceRDec 06 11:05
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oiaohmMinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap.Dec 06 12:33
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/673490353706704896Dec 06 13:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Точно. В Apple нет ничего передового. Это, действительно, просто очередная религия. https://t.co/EgtJkAUVQIDec 06 13:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #apple is lying about Open Source https://t.co/AoMNLyWREM than again, to many it's a religion, they'll believe anything...Dec 06 13:20
XRevan86Russian? In #techrights? :)Dec 06 13:24
XFaCEXRevan86: it's more likely than you thinkDec 06 13:25
XRevan86XFaCE: Точно.Dec 06 13:25
XFaCEI didn't say I speak russian :PDec 06 13:25
XFaCEdespite some EasternEuro ancestors :PDec 06 13:25
XRevan86XFaCE: "That's right" :)Dec 06 13:31
XFaCE:)Dec 06 13:33
XRevan86"@Zeipt Right. Apple has nothing advanced. It's really just yet another religion."Dec 06 13:40
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oiaohmThe bad news here apple is not exactly lying about open source.Dec 06 13:46
oiaohmPlease remember Apple 1 were kit construction with sample code under unrestricted license.Dec 06 13:46
oiaohmNow has Apple maintained a consistent Open Souce Policy the answer is no. Dec 06 13:47
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oiaohmBasically marketing weasels at work at Apple again using Half truths.    Half truth is yes you are telling the truth but you have omitted key facts that change the complete light of the matter.Dec 06 13:49
A_FriendSuddenly a lot of comments pro-management are appearing at the Dec 06 13:50
A_FriendIPKat. The media strstegy is working.Dec 06 13:51
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schestowitzI saw thatDec 06 14:07
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/kstallett/status/673502715620794368Dec 06 14:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz I used to be that guy in say 04/05. PowerBook and an iPod. Although then they were really good. Standard have dropped.Dec 06 14:09
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502891232088064  https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673502957854420992 https://twitter.com/phessler/status/673503022748704768Dec 06 14:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz this, is pure bullshit. a) microsoft's code in upstream openssh goes through the same reviews as anyone else.Dec 06 14:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz the money means _nothing_ as far as code review goesDec 06 14:10
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz and, it wasn't anywhere near $1mil.Dec 06 14:10
schestowitzMicrosoft adds blobsDec 06 14:10
schestowitzI didn't say code reviews are affectedDec 06 14:11
schestowitzred herringDec 06 14:11
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/phessler/status/673504868838035456Dec 06 14:11
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@phessler: @schestowitz blobs are not accepted in upstream openssh'd codebase.Dec 06 14:11
schestowitzMicrosoft adds themDec 06 14:11
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/673505293167255552Dec 06 14:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I have to wonder if the are legal/contractual elements at play here, or if it is just all greed...Dec 06 14:13
oiaohmschestowitz: I have seen no openssh blobs from Microsoft.Dec 06 14:15
schestowitzhttps://joindiaspora.com/posts/62700d807d0e01339da8060714e07a3aDec 06 14:15
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post?Dec 06 14:15
XFaCEoiaohm: well it wouldn't be that obviousDec 06 14:16
XFaCEHERE IS THE COMMIT OF PROPRIETARY CRAP THAT MICROSOFT HAS ADDEDDec 06 14:16
XFaCEno, more likely it would be code to facilitate proprietary blobs that Microsoft adds later in their bundled opensshDec 06 14:16
oiaohmXFaCE: https://github.com/PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH  This is the Microsoft openssh code base.Dec 06 14:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | PowerShell/Win32-OpenSSH · GitHubDec 06 14:19
oiaohmXFaCE: and then you can run the following processes to compare the binary to the source code http://www.forensicmag.com/articles/2013/02/detecting-source-code-re-use-through-binary-analysis-hybrid-approachDec 06 14:20
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.forensicmag.com | Detecting Source Code Re-Use through a Binary Analysis Hybrid ApproachDec 06 14:20
XFaCEoiaohm: have you done this yourself?Dec 06 14:21
oiaohmXFaCE: at this stage I have not seen anything out of place why if there is something out of place I want to here to I can work out how I missed it.Dec 06 14:21
XFaCEok, so you did this comparison program yourself?Dec 06 14:22
oiaohmXFaCE: I run a light level compare looking at basic flow and I know others who run deeper.   Basically I have no reports of anything hidden and nothing I have done myself suggest anything hidden.Dec 06 14:25
XFaCEthank you for answering the questionDec 06 14:25
oiaohmIf there is some report of Microsoft OpenSSL having some hidden extras I want to see it.Dec 06 14:25
oiaohmThere is a possiblity that someone missed the Microsoft Win32-OpenSSH on github.Dec 06 14:26
oiaohmIf you compare to upstream OpenSSH and Microsoft OpenSSH there are incompadiblities.Dec 06 14:26
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673507534318133249Dec 06 14:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I always think of the Open University TM282 mathematical modeling cycle when I see that. @schestowitz https://t.co/nfbhNAj99bDec 06 14:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> msds.open.ac.uk | MST210 - Mathematical methods, models and modelling - Open University CourseDec 06 14:27
oiaohmXFaCE: https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html  openssh is clean code base for reproducible build.   Unfortunately microsoft programs 1 ) don't come with complier information they were cleanly built with 2) Microsoft complier will optimise slightly differently each time it built. Dec 06 14:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://reproducible.debian.net/index_issues.html )Dec 06 14:33
oiaohmXFaCE: Yes detecting blobs in Microsoft built stuff is not a walk in park why you want to hear from anyone who does it.Dec 06 14:33
XFaCEoiaohm: "why you want to hear from anyone who does it." - I obviously do, hence why I'm asking you :PDec 06 16:00
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/DGrantGibson/status/673533706393391105Dec 06 16:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@DGrantGibson: Very revealing article on pesticides by top scientist. A must read. #90DayTidy https://t.co/fMXWzq3UaFDec 06 16:16
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: This Scientist Uncovered Problems With Pesticides. Then the Government Started to Make His Life Miserable. https://t.co/M6RdjPjF6pDec 06 16:16
oiaohmXFaCE: problem is even for a person like me even if appears clean to me I could have missed something.   The lack of reproducible build with MS Compliers make life hard.Dec 06 16:24
XFaCEoiaohm: isn't this basically the consequence of the compiler paradox?Dec 06 16:30
oiaohmXFaCE: no its not.  Debian project has proven with gcc its possible to produce reproducible builds.Dec 06 16:33
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/KrapulaPhD/status/673536885747294209Dec 06 16:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@KrapulaPhD: @AltalexNews @byoblu @altalex_eu @Serv_Pubblico @reportrai3 @teuthorn @t_montinari @LaGabbiaTw @Montecitorio https://t.co/TtB7BnMzanDec 06 16:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents More Than 2,000 People,Including Directors, Said to Have Protested in Munich (About HALF of #EPO Staff) https://t.co/LEveBH9EPjDec 06 16:34
oiaohmXFaCE: The catch is reproducible builds need very exact information about the complier used.   Like exactly what patches are applied.Dec 06 16:35
oiaohmXFaCE: basically the compiler paradox argument turns not to hold water.Dec 06 16:37
oiaohmXFaCE: of course a few things the coder in their source code can do to make binary not 100 percent identical each time.    But once you know what they are you can build expection profile for it.Dec 06 16:39
schestowitzMS adds blobsDec 06 17:19
schestowitzit's stated they won't use the standard ciphersDec 06 17:20
schestowitzand theirs are secretDec 06 17:20
schestowitzAlso, we know they have back doors, they'd not even deny itDec 06 17:20
schestowitzprobably more like "no comment"Dec 06 17:20
schestowitzI don't want to interact with an SSH node that runs on WindowsDec 06 17:20
schestowitzI won't trust itDec 06 17:20
schestowitzI wrote a whole article about key hostingDec 06 17:20
schestowitzlike some sysadmins with Windows at work (not their choice) putting private keys on WindowsDec 06 17:21
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/6735534407784038407Dec 06 17:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID.Dec 06 17:24
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/jrobertson/status/673553440778403840Dec 06 17:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jrobertson: #reality2015 #fakery #surveillance #apps https://t.co/jFekdsIZHvDec 06 17:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: A lot of so-called 'apps' these days (usually a byword for malware) harvest everything on a device, broadcast to mother ship for bulk SALE!Dec 06 17:24
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schestowitz>>> Another week has passed.  Any word from FSF or, more importantly, fromDec 06 17:41
schestowitz>>> >> Red Hat?Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > yes, I was going to write about it today, Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz> Excellent.Dec 06 17:41
schestowitzIt's published now and it convinced me to move on and not persist with it...Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > but 2 hours just wastedDec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > blocking effective DDOS attack from Baidu, so might not have time...Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz>> > http://www.tuxmachines.org/node/82909Dec 06 17:41
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.tuxmachines.org | Baidu Stages De Facto DDOS Attacks (Updated) | Tux MachinesDec 06 17:41
schestowitz> Dec 06 17:41
schestowitz> Ok.  Sorry to hear that.  At least the source is identified.  I see whenDec 06 17:41
schestowitz> pruning the spam false negatives [1] that the incoming requests areDec 06 17:41
schestowitz> still misidentified as the proxy.  If you put one of those modules, rpafDec 06 17:41
schestowitz> or mod_remoteip, it would be possible for Apache to block the offendingDec 06 17:41
schestowitz> hosts and not waste cycles serving them.Dec 06 17:41
schestowitzThe DDOS issue isn't as bad now as it was last week. I also managed to reduce some Drupal related spam, but Drupal is less usable for me now (wasted hours in vain trying to fix it, eventually found a workaround).Dec 06 17:41
schestowitzI don't care much for web stats (waste of time better spent writing articles), so rpaf not a priority for this particular reason...Dec 06 17:41
schestowitzPS - was thinking about going HTTPS recently...Dec 06 17:41
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/tzoannop/status/673585987973488640Dec 06 19:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@tzoannop: Είπαμε. Δημοκρατικότατη η Ευρώπη. https://t.co/sniKuRIrdRDec 06 19:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @FOSSpatents Suppression of Voices Critical of the European Patent Office (EPO) https://t.co/Hgjqs24dPXDec 06 19:47
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sebsebseb Dec 06 20:23
schestowitzheyDec 06 20:25
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cubexyzI think it's very telling that Ron Minnich, a coreboot programmer and Cory Doctorow who is a digital rights activist both have criticized EFIDec 06 20:52
cubexyz"EFI is an attempt to remove the ability of the user to truly control the computer"Dec 06 20:53
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cubexyz"Windows 10 will allow OEMs to not offer the ability to disable secure boot on x86 systems"Dec 06 20:56
cubexyzinteresting phraseology... Dec 06 20:56
cubexyzwhy in the world would the motherboard manufacturers allow Microsoft to call the shots?Dec 06 20:57
cubexyzhttp://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20121126#qaDec 06 21:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-distrowatch.com | DistroWatch.com: Put the fun back into computing. Use Linux, BSD.Dec 06 21:13
cubexyzalso remember... you go to the store to buy a motherboard... it may not say anything about secure boot on the boxDec 06 21:15
cubexyzhttps://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.htmlDec 06 21:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.all4os.com/windows/disable-asus-motherboards-uefi-secure-boot.html )Dec 06 21:17
cubexyzNSA -> backdoors -> firmware binary blobs == no freedomDec 06 21:21
cubexyzhttp://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/statementDec 06 21:34
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fsf.org | Stand up for your freedom to install free software — Free Software Foundation — working together for free softwareDec 06 21:34
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MinceR133353 < oiaohm> MinceR: UEFI is modern compare to BIOS that was designed to run MS/Dos and CP/M then extended to support more and more crap.Dec 06 22:27
MinceRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Extensible_Firmware_Interface#ServicesDec 06 22:27
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unified Extensible Firmware Interface - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 22:27
MinceRyet bios still doesn't encourage winblows-type braindeadness, as you can seeDec 06 22:27
cubexyzBIOS actually predates windowsDec 06 22:33
cubexyzBIOS even predates MicrosoftDec 06 22:33
cubexyzMinceR, unfortunately except for the very first version of BIOS for the IBM PC (used intel software) most BIOSes were generated with Microsoft AssemblerDec 06 22:34
cubexyzUEFI is merely the next level of Microsoft controlDec 06 22:34
cubexyzthey already had a lot of influence, as you can see from the BIOS source code that is floating aroundDec 06 22:35
cubexyzwe need the BIOS for warm booting and various other thingsDec 06 22:36
cubexyzsetting keyboard speed... and a ton of other things people never think aboutDec 06 22:36
cubexyzthe wikipedia article on BIOS is not very goodDec 06 22:38
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schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639118220447744  https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/673639451499896832Dec 06 23:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: When I was writing about patent trolls for magazines there was plenty of material @schestowitz Then I nearly got shot in Texas.Dec 06 23:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: By a patent troll @schestowitz Whilst I was interviewing him with his permission. Turns out U.S. Gov didn't like him.Dec 06 23:22
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/VerityPlayer/status/673643538459066368Dec 06 23:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@VerityPlayer: Like something out of a (very) black comedy... https://t.co/jk7ePMSumEDec 06 23:22
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @glynmoody #EPO “Synonymous With Psychological Depressions, Nervous Breakdowns, and Even Suicides” https://t.co/lvuIRXWQieDec 06 23:22
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_symbol  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_Street_Crash_of_1929Dec 06 23:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Ticker symbol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:50
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street Crash of 1929 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:50
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_StreetDec 06 23:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Wall Street - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:51
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Stock_ExchangeDec 06 23:51
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | New York Stock Exchange - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:51
schestowitzlooking for images for epo article..Dec 06 23:51
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NY_stock_exchange_traders_floor_LC-U9-10548-6.jpgDec 06 23:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NY stock exchange traders floor LC-U9-10548-6.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:52
schestowitzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:STS-125_Crew_Visits_the_Stock_Exchange.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NYSE_opening_bell.jpgDec 06 23:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:STS-125 Crew Visits the Stock Exchange.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | File:NYSE opening bell.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 06 23:53
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oiaohmMinceR: sorry to say BIOS has a stack of hidden services to emulate BIOS int calls.    So yes BIOS was already infected with the brain deadness.Dec 07 00:38
oiaohmcubexyz: technically we don't need bios most of the time.  u-boot start  on arm hardware there is no BIOS.    Seabios and the like is usable inside Xen and other hypervisors running on UEFI or u-boot so legacy OS support does not need to be in core firmware.Dec 07 00:40
cubexyzyou still need it to get things startedDec 07 00:41
cubexyzhttp://www.maxhost.org/other/coreboot-serial-output.txtDec 07 00:42
cubexyzcoreboot does a ton of stuffDec 07 00:42
cubexyzyou definitely need it for proper warm bootDec 07 00:42
cubexyzthe fact that we don't have BIOS source code (mostly) is a huge problemDec 07 00:43
cubexyzthe keyboard stuff has to be initializedDec 07 00:48
cubexyzall this is largely invisible to the user but it's necessaryDec 07 00:49
cubexyzobviously it has to boot the main OS from CD-ROM or hard drive or even USB driveDec 07 00:50
cubexyzI think seabios is necessary for FreeDOS or 16-bit OSDec 07 00:50
oiaohmcubexyz: problem here is form something like a Linux kernel BIOS is more an annoyance as when it starts it reinits almost everything anyhow so its in a known state.Dec 07 00:52
cubexyzit's utterly necessary :)Dec 07 00:53
cubexyzand people aren't just booting Linux but a whole range of operating systemsDec 07 00:53
cubexyzLinux can't run without itDec 07 00:55
oiaohmcubexyz:  http://www.seabios.org/Releases  read down  --Initial support for using SeaBIOS as a UEFI Compatibility Support Module (CSM)--Dec 07 00:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.seabios.org | Releases - SeaBIOSDec 07 00:55
oiaohmcubexyz: sorry Linux can run without a BIOS image.Dec 07 00:55
oiaohmcubexyz: it is possible to put Linux kernel straight into x86 firmware.Dec 07 00:56
cubexyztake your BIOS chip out and see what happensDec 07 00:56
oiaohmcubexyz: remove BIOS chip insert kernel containing chip configured for same hardware.Dec 07 00:56
cubexyzthat's just adding a kernel to the BIOSDec 07 00:57
oiaohmNo BIOS is a particular thing.Dec 07 00:57
oiaohmcubexyz: Basic Input/Output System is what BIOS stands for.Dec 07 00:58
oiaohmLinux kernel does not need BIOS to set up keyboard mouse screen....  As Linux kernel already does that stuff.Dec 07 00:58
oiaohmAll it need is a firmware that inits the hardware for operation.Dec 07 00:58
oiaohmcubexyz: coreboot subloads items like seabios to provide BIOS compadiblity for older OSs.    Yes it possible to subload on EUFI as well.Dec 07 01:00
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cubexyzuh, the BIOS has to boot the OSDec 07 01:01
cubexyzfrom some deviceDec 07 01:01
oiaohmNo a loader has to bring OS from device.   Coreboot and u-boot are technically not BIOS.Dec 07 01:02
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 01:07:56 2015
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 7 01:09:18 2015
*Now talking on #techrightsDec 07 01:09
*Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovellDec 07 01:09
*Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012Dec 07 01:09
cubexyzhow modern are we talking about?Dec 07 01:09
oiaohmcubexyz: pent 4Dec 07 01:09
cubexyzwell, don't you have computers older than that? :)Dec 07 01:09
cubexyzI sure doDec 07 01:10
oiaohmI still have a Pent 1 around.Dec 07 01:10
cubexyzok, so P4 or newer you have a pointDec 07 01:10
oiaohmSeabios and the like loading under UEFI sets real mode emulation stuff up.Dec 07 01:10
cubexyzmy point is there are millions of older computers that use real modeDec 07 01:10
oiaohmbasically UEFI does not block using real mode designed OS.Dec 07 01:11
oiaohmUEFI does not force more moden OSs to have to put up with the emulation for them.Dec 07 01:11
cubexyzbut you would have to at least turn off secure boot right?Dec 07 01:11
cubexyzjust pointing out that your choices are diminishingDec 07 01:13
oiaohmcubexyz: the answer is no.Dec 07 01:14
oiaohmsecureboot can be on and have system loading seabios.Dec 07 01:14
MinceRload FreeDOS, then load your own Linux kernel via LOADLINDec 07 01:15
oiaohmCatch is seabios has to be signed with a matching KEK.   So seabios is the OS loader.Dec 07 01:15
MinceRthen have someone else load FreeDOS and load random malware via LOADLINDec 07 01:15
MinceRstir up a hysteriaDec 07 01:15
MinceRban the offending keyDec 07 01:15
cubexyzso technically it's possible, but it's a total pain in the ass?Dec 07 01:15
MinceRit doesn't help security, but it does screw inexperienced usersDec 07 01:16
MinceRand screws warranty, most likelyDec 07 01:16
oiaohmcubexyz: Lot of UEFI boards have shipped with emulation done that way.Dec 07 01:16
MinceRit gives m$ more opportunities for FUD, and gives you no advantagesDec 07 01:16
cubexyznot to mention there is no source code to look at Dec 07 01:17
cubexyzso they could put anything at all in thereDec 07 01:17
MinceRlet alone modify, build, shareDec 07 01:17
cubexyzlook at Cedar Trail, it's hugeDec 07 01:18
cubexyzIvy Bridge, Luna Pier, Sandy Bridge... all contain huge amounts of codeDec 07 01:18
cubexyzI'm going to sign seabios, well that's ridiculousDec 07 01:19
cubexyzmaybe if I could turn off secure boot... otherwise noDec 07 01:21
oiaohmcubexyz: turn off secureboot remove the PK Dec 07 01:21
oiaohmcubexyz: or push the clock forward far enough that the PK is expired.Dec 07 01:21
cubexyzoiaohm, why can't I just buy a motherboard without secure boot?Dec 07 01:21
MinceRthisDec 07 01:21
cubexyzI don't want itDec 07 01:22
oiaohmcubexyz: you can by motherboards without PK set.Dec 07 01:22
oiaohmcubexyz: those are secureboot off.Dec 07 01:22
cubexyzok, greatDec 07 01:22
MinceRwhy can't i buy a mainboard with less fucked up firmware than uefi?Dec 07 01:22
oiaohmMinceR: how much are you willing to spend.Dec 07 01:22
cubexyzRaspberry PI I think would workDec 07 01:23
cubexyzor I just go on buying old motherboardsDec 07 01:23
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oiaohmMinceR: Intel makes customer reference model of motherboards.   These are for ODM to load prototype BIOS into.Dec 07 01:23
oiaohmand firmwares into.Dec 07 01:23
MinceRor buy a few companies that make them, and have them make something sane for you :>Dec 07 01:23
MinceRi'm not that rich thoughDec 07 01:23
cubexyzRaspberry PI, Pitop, Novena, and chromebooksDec 07 01:24
oiaohmAlso customer model reference boards sux.Dec 07 01:24
cubexyzand some thinkpads: X60, T60 or X200Dec 07 01:25
cubexyzpretty sure Raspberry PI 2 doesn't have securebootDec 07 01:26
MinceRindeedDec 07 01:26
cubexyzI mean, it would be pretty stupid if it did being a learning/experimental toolDec 07 01:27
cubexyzthe PI does composite video :)Dec 07 01:32
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cubexyzchanging the OS is as simple as swapping SD cardDec 07 01:35
oiaohmReally there are graphic driver init on the Raspberry PI done by closed source and signed blob.Dec 07 01:35
oiaohmThat closed blob loads the u-boot bit.Dec 07 01:35
oiaohmSo implementing secureboot on Raspberry PI would be 1 update.Dec 07 01:36
cubexyzPI is cheap enough to buy one to tryDec 07 01:42
oiaohmcubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29   Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem.Dec 07 01:42
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Blue Pill (software) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 07 01:42
oiaohmPI is still way under powered.Dec 07 01:43
oiaohmcubexyz: to get rid of secureboot requires putting something up to NIST and have them agree that your idea is a better solution than secureboot.Dec 07 01:43
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oiaohmcubexyz: to deal with firmware/loader messing under OS.Dec 07 01:44
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cubexyzoiaohm, why care about NIST? neither of us even live in the USDec 07 01:44
cubexyzPI is made in Wales from what I understandDec 07 01:45
cubexyzI doubt NIST cares what I thinkDec 07 01:45
cubexyzPI isn't even x86Dec 07 01:47
cubexyzanyways, I have a lot of old computers, so Blue Pill isn't a problemDec 07 01:49
oiaohmcubexyz: secureboot is appearing in newer systems with virtualisation support.Dec 07 01:52
cubexyzoiaohm, remember we talked about BIOS_WP on ECS motherboard?Dec 07 01:54
oiaohmhttp://csrc.nist.gov/publications/nistpubs/800-147/NIST-SP800-147-April2011.pdf http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/drafts/800-147b/draft-sp800-147b_july2012.pdf https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/files/resource_files/1FFEE497-1A4B-B294-D01FA27DFDDDEB06/UsingTPMtoAddressCybersecurity_Webinbar_May2014_Final.pdfDec 07 01:54
cubexyzso if I can find one...Dec 07 01:54
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oiaohmcubexyz: those 3 PDF allow you to understand where nist sees us going.Dec 07 01:55
cubexyzok, thanks I will read themDec 07 01:55
oiaohmIts nist that is pushing verified boot ideas.Dec 07 01:55
cubexyzthe ODMs or whatever would still have to go along with itDec 07 01:56
cubexyzthe jumper idea seemed a lot simplerDec 07 01:58
oiaohmcubexyz: if ODM want to sell to USA governement or USA government contractors  or mil countries aligned with the USA who agree to the same standards have to go along with it.Dec 07 01:58
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oiaohmcubexyz: so basically large block of market share to sell to is gone if you don't conform to nist standards.Dec 07 01:59
schestowitzhttps://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/673679090491244545Dec 07 01:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz this is what happens when a Microsoft mole destroys a primary industry https://t.co/kpFX9PpqG7Dec 07 01:59
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.zerohedge.com | It Begins: Desperate Finland Set To Unleash Helicopter Money Drop To All Citizens | Zero HedgeDec 07 01:59
MinceR024251 < oiaohm> cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Pill_%28software%29   Secureboot is to deal with a particular problem.Dec 07 02:02
MinceRstill failsDec 07 02:02
MinceRthe attacker could replace parts or whole of the system to boot the existing system image on a hypervisorDec 07 02:02
MinceR(parts or whole of the hardware)Dec 07 02:02
cubexyzif you want a secure computer, just have one computer with NO wifi and NO internetDec 07 02:03
MinceRjust another lame excuse to take freedom away from the userDec 07 02:03
cubexyzand 6 foot lead walls :)Dec 07 02:03
MinceRcubexyz: also prevent physical accessDec 07 02:03
MinceRrightDec 07 02:03
cubexyzand I do have a computer like that... Amiga 500Dec 07 02:04
oiaohmMinceR: the presume is attacking does not have physical access.Dec 07 02:04
MinceRthen restricted boot is unnecessaryDec 07 02:05
oiaohmremote malware was able to install items like bluepill.Dec 07 02:05
MinceRthen OS access controls were lackingDec 07 02:06
MinceRin fact, simply a read-only boot device would have prevented the issueDec 07 02:06
cubexyzBluepill needs AMD-V thoughDec 07 02:06
cubexyzso older stuff is safeDec 07 02:06
oiaohmcubexyz: I said bluepill like.Dec 07 02:06
oiaohmcubexyz: there are other older hidden malwares.Dec 07 02:07
cubexyzmaybe... the NSA have some smart people, but most attacks I see are dumbDec 07 02:08
oiaohmcubexyz: http://ai222.narod.ru/discoloured.html  anything based on this tech can do like bluepill attacks on i386 or newer.Dec 07 02:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ai222.narod.ru | Discoloured Ring 0 DebuggerDec 07 02:09
MinceRthey're also morally bankruptDec 07 02:09
cubexyzI see Windows XP :)Dec 07 02:10
cubexyzbut worth a lookDec 07 02:10
cubexyza BIOS attack would be interestingDec 07 02:12
cubexyzjust how do they attack the BIOS remotely?Dec 07 02:12
oiaohmIts called doing too much crap.Dec 07 02:12
oiaohmSome bios maker thought it was a good idea to add a check on internet for updates.Dec 07 02:13
MinceRthey could have added a hw switch to disable update via swDec 07 02:13
MinceRfar more secure than uefi without physical accessDec 07 02:14
MinceRand uefi with physical access is worthlessDec 07 02:14
oiaohmMinceR: I agree with the hardware switch idea but I don't know how to get Nist to go along.Dec 07 02:14
MinceRbut i guess such things are just not "modern" enoughDec 07 02:14
cubexyzDASH and Vpro no doubtDec 07 02:14
cubexyzthat does go back to what I said about forced upgradesDec 07 02:14
MinceRwell, make separate broken crap for the NIST if they want it so much and can afford to pay for itDec 07 02:14
MinceRno need to fuck up IT for everybody for their sakeDec 07 02:15
oiaohmNo NIST does not allow custom supply hardware in most cases.Dec 07 02:15
oiaohmDue to the fact that custom suppied hardware could be targeted.Dec 07 02:15
cubexyzso what do they use?Dec 07 02:16
oiaohmMinceR: basically ODM have to make a choice.Dec 07 02:16
MinceRthen they can use pen and paperDec 07 02:16
MinceRor better yet, rock and chiselDec 07 02:16
cubexyzI heard the Russians were using typewriters :)Dec 07 02:16
oiaohmcubexyz:  Nist standard has you using parts that you can buy through general channel that conform.Dec 07 02:16
MinceRi still don't get it why the industry has to be killed off for the sake of a single fascistic organizationDec 07 02:16
oiaohmMinceR: NIST rules control about 20 percent of the market.Dec 07 02:16
cubexyzMinceR, durable but inconvenient! :)Dec 07 02:17
MinceR(and the nsa should be defunded as well)Dec 07 02:17
MinceRi guess the problem is solving itselfDec 07 02:17
MinceRonce humanity exterminates itself, NIST and NSA members will also be all deadDec 07 02:17
cubexyzdo the russians make motherboards?Dec 07 02:17
MinceRoiaohm: last time i checked 20% was still a minority.Dec 07 02:17
cubexyzthey clone a bunch of stuff in the PDP-11 eraDec 07 02:17
oiaohmMinceR: depends where.Dec 07 02:18
MinceRhas NIST or NSA revolutionarized mathematics too?Dec 07 02:18
oiaohmMinceR: globally 20% of the market.Dec 07 02:18
MinceRstill a minority.Dec 07 02:18
oiaohmMinceR: but particular areas on earth its 100 percent.Dec 07 02:18
MinceRdoesn't matter, still a minorityDec 07 02:18
MinceR100-20=80, 80 > 20Dec 07 02:18
MinceReven more obviously true than uefi being broken crap.Dec 07 02:19
oiaohmNow the next issue is what ever NIST standard normally accept other bodies like Chinas implement something equal.Dec 07 02:19
oiaohmPlease note MinceR NIST does not demard UEFI they just demard a verfied and secured boot.Dec 07 02:20
MinceRalso note that hw switches are a lot less complex than uefiDec 07 02:20
MinceRoiaohm: i don't care what they want, if they demand the general purpose computer to be killed, they can go fuck themselves.Dec 07 02:20
oiaohmgood thing NIST wants general purpose computer to remain.Dec 07 02:20
MinceRdoesn't look like itDec 07 02:21
oiaohmJust secure general purpose computer that they are sure what software is running on it.Dec 07 02:21
MinceRtheir "secure general purpose computer" is not secure and not general purposeDec 07 02:21
oiaohmNIST wants Linux and other OS to work.Dec 07 02:21
MinceRmaybe they'll find a way to also make it not a computerDec 07 02:21
oiaohmNIST standard is why PK is replaceable.Dec 07 02:21
MinceRagain, they could just go play with rocks.Dec 07 02:21
MinceRthey're doing an atrocious job at making other OS workDec 07 02:22
MinceRas in, they're doing an exact oppositeDec 07 02:22
oiaohmThe first idea of UEFI is the PK would 100 percent own to the ODM.Dec 07 02:22
MinceRif they're so incompetent, perhaps they should be defunded and shut down.Dec 07 02:22
MinceRhere's the "big government" the republicans allegedly want to get rid ofDec 07 02:22
oiaohmWithout NIST we would not have the means to change the PK.Dec 07 02:22
MinceRwithout UEFI we would not have the _need_ to change the PKDec 07 02:23
oiaohmNIST first design secureboot signing for old school bios.Dec 07 02:23
MinceRs/an ex/the ex/Dec 07 02:23
oiaohmSo yes a old school bios can have a PK.Dec 07 02:23
MinceRdoesn't matter what incompetent people design forDec 07 02:23
MinceRif they're incapable of coming up with a good design, the designs they come up with will suck.Dec 07 02:23
MinceRand forcing such designs on the industry will kill the industryDec 07 02:24
oiaohmMinceR: I have not said once that the designs don't suck.Dec 07 02:24
MinceRand once they kill the IT industry, it will take the rest of industry, tech, science and human society down with it.Dec 07 02:24
oiaohmBut like it or not we there are mandoary requirements that will have to be meet.  Dec 07 02:24
MinceRmandatory requirements that kill the general purpose computer, got itDec 07 02:25
MinceRit's exactly what i am againstDec 07 02:25
oiaohmPK only in the hands of ODM would have killed the general purpose computer absolutely.Dec 07 02:25
MinceR"only in the hands of ODM" really means "in the hands of microsoft"Dec 07 02:26
oiaohm No it does not.Dec 07 02:26
MinceRsince they have leverage over all the ODMs, except for the ones manufacturing for crApple, which are in the same shitty situationDec 07 02:26
MinceRand remember, they call this a "free market"Dec 07 02:26
oiaohmThere are arm items running custom OS using PK solutions.Dec 07 02:26
cubexyzhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Build_Your_Own_Z80_ComputerDec 07 02:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Build Your Own Z80 Computer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 07 02:26
MinceRyeah, as long as emperor nutella allows them toDec 07 02:27
MinceRsitting on the kill switchDec 07 02:27
MinceRor probably more likely gatesDec 07 02:27
oiaohmMinceR: Nist is also why keyless is possible.Dec 07 02:27
cubexyzthere's no kill switch :)Dec 07 02:27
oiaohmMinceR: basically NIST has blocked 100 percent sure killing of general computing.Dec 07 02:28
MinceRyay, slow and drawn-out death!Dec 07 02:29
oiaohmMinceR: think about it how can you proccess large volume of spy data without general computer.Dec 07 02:29
MinceRoiaohm: they are the ones who should think about thatDec 07 02:29
MinceRin general, they should start thinkingDec 07 02:29
oiaohmMinceR: exactly.Dec 07 02:29
MinceRas they haven't done much of it so farDec 07 02:29
cubexyzso the NSA will get general purpose computers and we'll get consumertron 2000sDec 07 02:30
oiaohmProblem is they are attempting to walk a line between secure and general computersDec 07 02:30
MinceRwhich would enable them to rule the worldDec 07 02:30
oiaohmLike NIST made the push to move the TPM off motherboard to a socketed item.Dec 07 02:30
MinceRno, they don't seem to have any idea of what "secure" meansDec 07 02:31
MinceRapparently they've learned "security" from microsoftDec 07 02:31
oiaohmMinceR: that is wrong.Dec 07 02:31
MinceRwhere it means DRM and backdoors with government and m$ accessDec 07 02:31
oiaohmNIST normally publishes before Microsoft.Dec 07 02:31
MinceRand lack of user/owner controlDec 07 02:31
oiaohmMicrosoft follows NIST Dec 07 02:31
oiaohmIn most cases.Dec 07 02:31
MinceRi don't really care what the figures in the shell game are calledDec 07 02:32
oiaohmLike secureboot was written before UEFI had it first line of code written.Dec 07 02:32
oiaohmsecureboot by nistDec 07 02:32
MinceRthe point is, either they will survive, or we will live freeDec 07 02:32
MinceRthere's no other wayDec 07 02:32
MinceRor everybody dies, which is even more likelyDec 07 02:32
oiaohmTo be correct lack of user/owner control NIST does not agree with MinceRDec 07 02:33
oiaohmOk NIST does not have a issue with it being a total pain in ass to operate.Dec 07 02:33
MinceRthen they should get their uefiDec 07 02:33
MinceRand the rest of us should get sane, reliable, secure systems insteadDec 07 02:34
oiaohmMinceR: secure is the problem.Dec 07 02:35
oiaohmHow to achive secure without being a pain in ass.Dec 07 02:35
MinceRand once they get tired of using the broken crap they plotted to force on everybody, they can give the latter a tryDec 07 02:35
MinceRoiaohm: no, they're trying to achieve the illusion of a kind of security they can not haveDec 07 02:36
MinceRand they're willing to give everything up for that illusionDec 07 02:36
MinceRincluding actual, existing securityDec 07 02:36
oiaohmAll security is part illusion.Dec 07 02:37
MinceRhow are illusions supposed to keep you safe?Dec 07 02:37
oiaohmMinceR: its like a locked door.   Its only an illusion really that a person cannot get past it.Dec 07 02:38
oiaohmMost safety depened on the illusion of safety that the illusion is strong enough that most will not attempt to attack it.Dec 07 02:39
MinceRor you could put a guard next to that locked doorDec 07 02:39
oiaohmEven a guard is still a form of illusion.   If some is determed enough a guard or guards normally is not a blockage.Dec 07 02:40
MinceRdepends on the ratio of power between guards and attackerDec 07 02:41
MinceRand a locked door can be strengthened as wellDec 07 02:41
MinceRbut if you're dreaming to stay secure while assuming that the attacker has already passed the door, that's pointlessDec 07 02:42
oiaohmMinceR: No matter what you do attacker can always be stronger right.Dec 07 02:42
oiaohmOr sneaker.Dec 07 02:42
MinceRrestricted does not help with that one bitDec 07 02:42
MinceRs/ted/ted boot/Dec 07 02:42
MinceRit merely screws things up for user/ownersDec 07 02:42
oiaohmIt does help a little.Dec 07 02:42
oiaohmAs it makes replacement more detectable.Dec 07 02:42
oiaohmSo providing extra complexity to attackers to get past.Dec 07 02:43
MinceRand harms a lotDec 07 02:43
MinceRmakes it hard for users to use a secure OSDec 07 02:43
MinceRbricks computersDec 07 02:43
MinceRthe winblows and OSuX they're trying everything to force on us are full of holesDec 07 02:44
oiaohmTo be correct UEFI design that NIST agrees with does not brick computers.Dec 07 02:44
MinceRand will stay full of holes even if you place their illusion beside themDec 07 02:44
oiaohmthe UEFI some ODM have made does.Dec 07 02:44
MinceRin the end, users are screwed _and_ have less securityDec 07 02:44
MinceRgood job, NIST!Dec 07 02:44
oiaohmNot exactly less security.Dec 07 02:45
oiaohmNot doing any validation on boot was 100 percent inscure.Dec 07 02:45
oiaohmSo security has improved a little.Dec 07 02:45
MinceRdoing any validation on boot is still 100 percent insecureDec 07 02:45
oiaohmPain in ass factor increased a lot.Dec 07 02:45
MinceRit only helps companies who conspire to break securityDec 07 02:45
MinceRm$, crApple, intel, ratcrapDec 07 02:45
MinceR(though ratcrap will get screwed by it anyway)Dec 07 02:46
oiaohmcrApple tittle when it comes to UEFI is deserved.Dec 07 02:46
MinceR(they're just too moronic to see it)Dec 07 02:46
oiaohmApple has made more broken UEFI implemtnations than any other vendor.Dec 07 02:46
MinceRyay for themDec 07 02:46
oiaohmMinceR: http://refit.sourceforge.net/info/apple_efi.html   Apple used ELF instead of PE as well just customed to hell version of ELF on top.Dec 07 02:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-refit.sourceforge.net | rEFIt - History of Apple and EFIDec 07 02:48
oiaohmMinceR: PE being a microsoft format sound bad.   But at least it not Apple creating a completley new form of ELF for their UEFI.Dec 07 02:49
MinceRyeah, m$ and crApple are both very good at fucking things upDec 07 02:50
oiaohmPE selection in UEFI was sane ish take existing linkers and just use those no custom modification crap.Dec 07 02:51
MinceRnot reallyDec 07 02:51
MinceRit's validating m$'s position and buying into their broken shitDec 07 02:51
MinceRinstead of industry standards like EFIDec 07 02:51
oiaohmEFI used PEDec 07 02:51
MinceRoopsDec 07 02:52
MinceRELFDec 07 02:52
MinceR(which was agreed upon by unix vendors, afaik)Dec 07 02:52
oiaohmELF not quite as good as it first seams.Dec 07 02:52
MinceR(not that they can only support one format, especially with the code size they've allowed for themselves)Dec 07 02:52
oiaohmELF has a lot more arch type description crap.Dec 07 02:52
MinceRyeah, poor little winblows can't handle itDec 07 02:52
MinceRand everybody must go out of their way to support poor little winblowsDec 07 02:53
oiaohmNo not poor windows.Dec 07 02:53
MinceRsince they're in such a bad positionDec 07 02:53
oiaohmPoor EFI with all the ELF arch stuff could become a pain in ass.Dec 07 02:53
MinceREFI _is_ a pain in the assDec 07 02:53
cubexyzELF appeared in SysV SVR4Dec 07 02:53
MinceRU or not UDec 07 02:53
MinceRit's also a gigantic pile of bloatDec 07 02:53
MinceRfor the simple task of loading and executing a boot loaderDec 07 02:54
cubexyzok, well there's always PDP-11 a.out :)Dec 07 02:54
MinceRi know big piles of crap can look impressive, but they also have the potential for lots of bugsDec 07 02:54
oiaohmRemember PE is extend COFF that predates ELF.Dec 07 02:54
MinceRand in that place, bugs will brick your "computer"Dec 07 02:54
MinceRthen they could use unextended COFFDec 07 02:54
MinceRanother standardDec 07 02:54
oiaohmMinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable.Dec 07 02:55
oiaohmThese days.Dec 07 02:55
MinceRthey only support m$ formats and expect people to think they're impartial? that's absurd.Dec 07 02:55
MinceRoiaohm: they could develop them.Dec 07 02:55
MinceRthey could write tons of code which they wanted to do anywayDec 07 02:55
MinceRexcept that would not bloat the firmwareDec 07 02:55
MinceRit could exist nicely in userspace.Dec 07 02:55
MinceRon top of a real OS.Dec 07 02:55
cubexyzlots of hobbyists still use old UnixDec 07 02:56
MinceRhobbyists are ignored by the brainless suits who call the shotsDec 07 02:56
oiaohmcubexyz: even in old unix there are coff veration.Dec 07 02:56
MinceRthey take the hobbyists' code and then use it against the hobbyistsDec 07 02:56
MinceRoh, and PE is without variations?Dec 07 02:56
MinceRso the various stubs are just in my imagination?Dec 07 02:57
cubexyzoiaohm, recompile seems an easy solutionDec 07 02:57
MinceRthe one that prints it won't run in m$-dos, the one that loads it with .net (for no good reason)Dec 07 02:57
MinceRthe one they put on font files (which apparently need to be executable for some reason)Dec 07 02:57
oiaohmMinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard.   Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub.Dec 07 02:58
cubexyzI can run v6 on PDP-11 or Interdata, probably others tooDec 07 02:58
MinceRooh, "standard"Dec 07 02:58
MinceRfrom m$Dec 07 02:58
MinceRwill you also advocate OOXML too?Dec 07 02:58
cubexyzso C language, recompileDec 07 02:58
MinceRit's a m$ "standard"Dec 07 02:58
MinceRnever mind that m$'s own implementations ignore their alleged standardsDec 07 02:58
MinceRor that if you dropped its printout on someone, it can very well kill themDec 07 02:58
MinceR035800 < oiaohm> MinceR: stubs are written into the PE standard.   Intersting enough a PE binary does not have to have a MZ stub.Dec 07 02:59
MinceRso those are not variations either?Dec 07 02:59
MinceRi have an ideaDec 07 02:59
MinceRput a PE stub in front of ELF and call it "standard"Dec 07 02:59
cubexyzv5 -> PDP-11, v6 -> interdata 7/32 & PDP-11, v8 -> vax780, etcDec 07 02:59
MinceRand once you have code supporting that, remove the need for the stubDec 07 02:59
MinceRmagic!Dec 07 03:00
cubexyzpick your eraDec 07 03:00
MinceRalso, i'm sure EFI will handle _all_ variations of PEDec 07 03:00
MinceRthere must be support for that in the mountains of bullshit that make up TianoCoreDec 07 03:00
MinceRhell, they could just copy-paste winblows into TianoCore and end the whole charadeDec 07 03:00
cubexyzmy advice is to learn history... computer historyDec 07 03:01
MinceRsoon you'll be able to learn _all_ of computer history, because they will end computersDec 07 03:01
MinceRi wonder whose software will the parasitic luddites at NIST use when they take the computers away from the people whose people they keep ripping offDec 07 03:02
oiaohmMinceR: to be correct EFI does not take all veriation of PE.  Like .net stuff is out.   EFI takes native executable forms of PE.Dec 07 03:02
MinceR035507 < oiaohm> MinceR: find compliers that build COFF stable.Dec 07 03:05
MinceRgcc?Dec 07 03:05
oiaohmMinceR: gcc supports 400 COFF formats.Dec 07 03:06
MinceRshould be more than enough for the idiots at NIST, thenDec 07 03:06
MinceRexcept of course they want to use visual studio because they're idiotsDec 07 03:06
oiaohmPE/COFF is formally a coff format.Dec 07 03:06
MinceRi'm sure there are non-m$ formats in thereDec 07 03:07
oiaohmYes there are non MS formats in COFF but the problem is how much of a nightmare it comes.   Like Linux coff a.out is differnet to solaris.....Dec 07 03:07
MinceRi thought a.out was not COFFDec 07 03:08
MinceRhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.outDec 07 03:08
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | a.out - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 07 03:08
oiaohmLinux early on used COFF format.Dec 07 03:08
cubexyzLinux used a.out until kernel 1.2Dec 07 03:09
cubexyzI think up to v7 a.out was usedDec 07 03:10
cubexyzUnix v7 that isDec 07 03:10
cubexyzso probably by v8 then it was COFFDec 07 03:11
cubexyzyou have to go pretty far back to go back to a.outDec 07 03:12
oiaohmMinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COFF  as you can see here the COFF standard is super vague.Dec 07 03:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | COFF - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaDec 07 03:12
oiaohmNumbers of sections is not define.Dec 07 03:12
oiaohmLot of layout bits are not defined in COFF.Dec 07 03:13
oiaohmLets say COFF is wild wild west of binary format.Dec 07 03:13
MinceRwhat are microsoft "standard"s, then?Dec 07 03:13
cubexyzoiaohm, what about Amiga?Dec 07 03:13
MinceR(remember, their own implementations tend to violate the spec)Dec 07 03:13
cubexyzit was called Hunk I thinkDec 07 03:14
cubexyzso we never had executable interoperabilityDec 07 03:14
cubexyzjust source code porting...Dec 07 03:14
oiaohmMinceR: that is the funny thing about PE.   http://www.skyfree.org/linux/references/coff.pdf  This is 1999 from Microsoft for PE but it exactly correct for all binary PE format back to the start to all the way up to current day.Dec 07 03:15
oiaohmMinceR: even the extend for .net was done inside the PE spec.Dec 07 03:15
oiaohmMinceR: Fairlly much the PE format is the only time Microsoft has written a spec and stuck to it.Dec 07 03:15
cubexyzI'm sure RT-11 executeable format would be different againDec 07 03:15
MinceRi have my doubtsDec 07 03:16
cubexyzzaurus executable won't work on P3, etcDec 07 03:16
oiaohmWine project loads all kinds of PE programs from accross the complete time frame.Dec 07 03:16
oiaohmMinceR: you might have you doubts but this is something that is just been tested over and over again.Dec 07 03:17
MinceRwine project took a lot of work to support the craziness in winblowsDec 07 03:17
MinceRand afaik it's still far from perfectDec 07 03:17
oiaohmwine project has to follow down a lot of undocument apis true.Dec 07 03:17
oiaohmbut its never had a issue loading PE itself.Dec 07 03:17
oiaohmPE format is nice and stable the reset of the Windows ABI will make you want to pull you hair out.Dec 07 03:18
oiaohmreset/restDec 07 03:18
oiaohmIf you were after something COFF unforntatly PE/COFF is about your best choice.Dec 07 03:18
MinceRan allegedly independent system that is allegedly supposed to boot other OS-es living entirely within microsoftland and not even trying to disguise that fact much is what makes me pull my hair outDec 07 03:18
MinceRalong with the fact that it's a bloated, broken mess and i don't get much of a choice whether i get it if i buy a computerDec 07 03:19
oiaohmPlease note BEOS and other OS have used PE/COFF as well.Dec 07 03:19
MinceRgood for themDec 07 03:19
MinceRwhere's BeOS now?Dec 07 03:19
MinceRwhat happened to them?Dec 07 03:19
MinceRwhich company did they preach "peaceful coexistence" with?Dec 07 03:19
oiaohmBeOS is cloned in Open source.Dec 07 03:19
MinceRwhy do people _never_ _ever_ learn from their own past mistakes?Dec 07 03:19
cubexyzthere's HaikuOSDec 07 03:19
MinceRHaiku is not BeOSDec 07 03:20
cubexyzit's not bad actuallyDec 07 03:20
oiaohmMinceR: Haiku contains some of the developers from BeOS.Dec 07 03:20
MinceRgood for themDec 07 03:20
oiaohmOS projects take a long time to die.Dec 07 03:20
MinceRi wonder what they'll say when restricted boot locks out HaikuDec 07 03:20
cubexyz"here we go again" ? Dec 07 03:21
MinceR:>Dec 07 03:21
MinceRhumanity needs to develop a strong AI, so that there will be an intelligence that can learn and improveDec 07 03:22
MinceRbecause humans sure as hell can'tDec 07 03:22
oiaohmMinceR: http://www.uefi.org/sites/default/files/resources/UEFI%202_5.pdf  If you read page 67 pdf pages or 18 by document page number you will notice PE used by EFI is not without being modified.Dec 07 03:26
MinceRso they didn't even use the "standard" they pickedDec 07 03:26
oiaohmMinceR: yes it coded named PE+ yes you are meant to strip the dos header off.Dec 07 03:26
MinceRwhich compiler will generate their custom "PE"?Dec 07 03:26
MinceRthe more i see of uefi the more it looks like a carnival of total failureDec 07 03:27
oiaohmTurns out gcc,llvm and msvc MinceRDec 07 03:27
MinceRit's a monument that demonstrates the opposite of engineeringDec 07 03:27
oiaohmThe modifications they did were allowed under PE define MinceRDec 07 03:27
MinceRthe culmination of the crApple/micro$oft dreamDec 07 03:27
oiaohmOf course PE+ requires all the existing compliers at the time to use some extra header files.Dec 07 03:28
oiaohmMinceR: PE was simple to modifiy would having to reinvent the wheel.Dec 07 03:29
MinceRthe usual gameDec 07 03:29
oiaohmwould/without.Dec 07 03:29
oiaohmThey did look at ELFDec 07 03:29
MinceRand said "nah, Not Invented Here"Dec 07 03:29
MinceRor "our lord bill gates would disapprove"Dec 07 03:29
oiaohmNo early prototype EFI tried both.Dec 07 03:29
MinceRand maybe made up some bullshit excuse, which is made ludicrous by their later decisions, as usualDec 07 03:30
oiaohmYes they ran into binary build issues with ELF.Dec 07 03:30
oiaohmNot from Microsoft.Dec 07 03:30
oiaohmFrom solaris and OS XDec 07 03:30
MinceRmaybe they should have tried hiring some software engineersDec 07 03:30
MinceRratcrap should have tried that tooDec 07 03:30
MinceRthen again, their goal was not to build stuff that worksDec 07 03:31
MinceRbut to break stuff that used to workDec 07 03:31
oiaohmMinceR: have you ever used a bios with verfifed boot over the time.Dec 07 03:31
MinceRi don't think i haveDec 07 03:32
oiaohmAlso the existance of  coreboot shows thing were not working right.Dec 07 03:32
oiaohmbios mapping usb keyboards to PS2 interfaces and other horibles in background would cause random distruptions.Dec 07 03:32
MinceRmy newest x86 PC still supports "Legacy Boot"Dec 07 03:33
MinceRsure, the mountain of bloat is still there, but at least it tries to pretend it's a computerDec 07 03:33
MinceRbut that will eventually go awayDec 07 03:33
oiaohmEFI start off as an attempt to remove all the emulation stuff between the OS and the hardware in the SMMDec 07 03:33
MinceRwhich they did not doDec 07 03:33
MinceRSMM is still supportedDec 07 03:33
oiaohmSMM usage is way lower in a UEFI boot to OS than a BIOS boot to OS.Dec 07 03:34
oiaohmBut yes they did not meet their complete objective.Dec 07 03:34
MinceRthe usual [u]efi game: 1. proclaim that doing A is very important; 2. sacrifice everything sane in the name of A; 3. fail to do ADec 07 03:34
MinceRand they expect to be praised for thisDec 07 03:34
oiaohmMinceR: its a 90+ percent reduction of stuff in SMMDec 07 03:34
MinceRi don't careDec 07 03:35
MinceRit's a 100 percent reduction of the stuff general purpose computers exist forDec 07 03:35
MinceRthey don't just throw the baby out with the bathwaterDec 07 03:35
MinceRthey throw the baby into a furnace while carefully preserving the bathwaterDec 07 03:35
MinceRand then they demand compliments for getting rid of the bathwater and keeping the babyDec 07 03:36
oiaohmSMM code from BIOS has been resposnable for random Windows/Linux/BSD/Solaris... crashs due to locking hardware under OS.Dec 07 03:36
MinceRand then you say "but they did end up with a few drops of bathwater less!"Dec 07 03:36
MinceRyes, and it's still there!Dec 07 03:36
MinceRbut now you also get bricked before the OS gets to loadDec 07 03:36
MinceRis that progress?Dec 07 03:36
oiaohmTo be correct some UEFI systems in fact have nothing in SMM mode when OS is running.Dec 07 03:37
MinceRi wish i could "work" with the standards set for these peopleDec 07 03:37
MinceRi would get paid lavishly while doing nothingDec 07 03:37
MinceRand doing nothing would still be better than what these people ever achievedDec 07 03:37
oiaohmWhy UEFI has some is some hardware depends on software power management instead of having a power management microcontrol.Dec 07 03:37
MinceRooh, we have a "UEFI system" in the lab that runs nothing in SMM mode!Dec 07 03:38
MinceRthat's great, and i have a computer that runs what i want it to runDec 07 03:38
oiaohmThere are some boards in the wild.Dec 07 03:38
MinceRyou know what else runs nothing in SMM mode? a rock!Dec 07 03:38
oiaohmSMM mode is levels of nightmare.Dec 07 03:38
MinceRwhich is incidentally a lot more useful than what these idiots at m$, intel and crApple are hacking upDec 07 03:38
MinceRyes, so is uefi.Dec 07 03:39
MinceRand so is windows, and so is macos.Dec 07 03:39
MinceRmaybe it would be more productive to design a new architecture from scratch without the stuff we want to get rid ofDec 07 03:39
MinceRinstead of this pointless wankeryDec 07 03:40
MinceRi bet it could be done with less work than it took to shit out TianoCoreDec 07 03:41
oiaohmUnforantly I have to agree x86 platforms are insanely complex to start up.Dec 07 03:41
MinceRgood thing these ingenious people are working to fix that, right?Dec 07 03:42
oiaohmThe big thing about UEFI documentation is that it starts showing people what people making BIOS for motherboard were doing in secert.Dec 07 03:42
MinceRso far they've managed to make them even more insanely complex to start upDec 07 03:42
MinceRand less reliableDec 07 03:42
MinceRprogress!Dec 07 03:42
oiaohmNot at all.Dec 07 03:42
oiaohmThe start up process was insanely complex MinceRDec 07 03:42
oiaohmJust you had no documentation about it.Dec 07 03:43
MinceRwhat does it say about these people that their work accomplished less than actually doing nothing would have?Dec 07 03:43
oiaohmRead coreboot documentation on starting up.Dec 07 03:43
oiaohmYou will find it about as complex as UEFI.Dec 07 03:43
cubexyzit is complexDec 07 03:43
MinceRtry checking the _code_Dec 07 03:43
MinceRthey don't have to do it in secret anymore because they'll have the government ban general purpose computers from the use of us slaves?Dec 07 03:44
oiaohmMinceR: coreboot and UEFI if you look at code are about equally complex.Dec 07 03:44
MinceRcitation neededDec 07 03:44
oiaohmReality starting an x86 system is a pure pain in ass.Dec 07 03:44
MinceRwhy make it more painful?Dec 07 03:44
cubexyzthere's the old ISA/PCI stuff as wellDec 07 03:45
MinceRis more pain better than less pain?Dec 07 03:45
oiaohmShockily UEFI is less painful than old bios.   Coreboot is also modular with items like services.Dec 07 03:45
MinceRhaving to jump through hoops to boot a secure OS is "less painful" than not having to do so?Dec 07 03:46
MinceRis this some sort of bizarro world?Dec 07 03:46
oiaohmMinceR: basically the only way to make starting an x86 less painful would be redesign the complete thing.Dec 07 03:46
MinceRCOMPLEXITY IS SIMPLICITYDec 07 03:46
MinceRWAR IS PEACEDec 07 03:46
oiaohmEven in bios you have to run checksums on parts.Dec 07 03:46
MinceRFREEDOM IS SLAVERYDec 07 03:46
cubexyzgo raspberry pi thenDec 07 03:47
MinceRIGNORANCE IS STRENGTHDec 07 03:47
cubexyzat least it's not x86Dec 07 03:47
MinceRfor some of my workload, i already haveDec 07 03:47
oiaohmMinceR: signing checking was going on in old school bioses behind you back.Dec 07 03:47
MinceRbut some of it probably won't work on piDec 07 03:47
MinceRoiaohm: and yet old school bioses would boot any os i want toDec 07 03:47
MinceRwithout askingDec 07 03:47
oiaohmMost of the UEFI does is put what was going on in background front and centre.Dec 07 03:47
MinceRwithout putting a ticking time bomb in the processDec 07 03:47
MinceRgreatDec 07 03:48
MinceRwhen will they fix it?Dec 07 03:48
oiaohmOld bios had lot of ticking time bombs.Dec 07 03:48
MinceRalso, when will they take out the unnecessary shit that broke it even more?Dec 07 03:48
MinceRalso, on what basis should i have any confidence whatsoever in their ability to fix things?Dec 07 03:49
oiaohmThe secure boot signing pushed through to OS is just extending what was going on.Dec 07 03:49
MinceRso far, they've made things more broken and proudly proclaimed "HERP DERP FIXED NOW!"Dec 07 03:49
oiaohmDo you remember BIOS that refused to boot if your MBR had changed.Dec 07 03:49
MinceRyes, extending it in a way that fucks up computers for the people who buy themDec 07 03:49
MinceRno, i don'tDec 07 03:49
oiaohmMinceR: they exist.Dec 07 03:49
MinceRi happily changed MBRs and kept on bootingDec 07 03:49
MinceRyes, uefi appliances exist tooDec 07 03:49
oiaohmMost bioses had the switch turned off but some came with it on.Dec 07 03:50
cubexyzthere was an MBR protection thing I think Dec 07 03:50
MinceRand the way things are going, soon there won't be any x86 PCs made that do what their alleged owner tells them toDec 07 03:50
oiaohmcubexyz: yes MBR protection.Dec 07 03:50
cubexyzboot sector watchdog Dec 07 03:50
oiaohmYep another name for the same thing.Dec 07 03:50
oiaohmSo firmware checking your loader is not exactly new.Dec 07 03:50
MinceRyes, they're good at coming up with nice-sounding names for misfeaturesDec 07 03:50
MinceRthey even call DRM "security"Dec 07 03:50
MinceReven though it's the opposite, if anythingDec 07 03:50
MinceRcan we not focus instead on what things _are_?Dec 07 03:51
oiaohmI had the horible case of a motherboard that would only accept a Microsoft MBR.Dec 07 03:51
cubexyzwhich motherboard was that?Dec 07 03:51
oiaohmand Microsoft boot sector.Dec 07 03:51
cubexyzwhich BIOS was that? :)Dec 07 03:51
MinceRi'm not terribly interested on what the Party wishes i believedDec 07 03:51
oiaohmcubexyz: some rebranded foxcomm made board cheap.Dec 07 03:51
oiaohmcubexyz: AMI BIOSDec 07 03:52
MinceRcheapDec 07 03:52
MinceRso even they knew it was crapDec 07 03:52
MinceRback thenDec 07 03:52
MinceRnow it's "securiteh"Dec 07 03:52
cubexyzI like Tyan, MSI, and maybe ECSDec 07 03:52
oiaohmThe reality was there was no option to get around it.Dec 07 03:52
cubexyzstill have to try ECS thoughDec 07 03:52
oiaohmAt least UEFI does define options.Dec 07 03:52
cubexyzoiaohm, you would probably have to rewrite the BIOS to fix itDec 07 03:52
MinceRyesDec 07 03:53
MinceRoption 1: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what m$ tells it to do, while ignoring your wishesDec 07 03:53
oiaohmcubexyz: vendor not providing updates and board not supported by anyone else.   It taught me what the worst case was.   I scraped the board.Dec 07 03:53
MinceRoption 2: get a broken appliance that will consume your electricity, your bandwidth and do what crApple tells it to do, while ignoring your wishesDec 07 03:53
MinceRoption 3: have no computers or things that pretend they're computersDec 07 03:53
MinceRand that's itDec 07 03:53
cubexyzoiaohm, you probably would have had to give AMI major $$$ to fix thatDec 07 03:53
MinceRthanks, uefi!Dec 07 03:53
cubexyznot worth itDec 07 03:54
oiaohmFrom my point of view UEFI is at least workable.   Pain in Ass but workable.Dec 07 03:54
cubexyzthe funny thing is, I don't think I own an UEFI computer :)Dec 07 03:54
MinceRi don't see why you want pain in the assDec 07 03:54
oiaohmcubexyz: the UEFI ones I have do have replaced PK and KEKs.Dec 07 03:54
cubexyzMinceR, I don't ... for sure I don'tDec 07 03:55
MinceRi also don't see why you believe they'll stop _just_ short of making it impossible to run something not broken on the alleged computerDec 07 03:55
MinceRafter putting all the infrastructure in place to force the alleged computer to be just another bot in m$'s (or crApple's) botnetDec 07 03:55
MinceRit's a lot like cancerd, btwDec 07 03:56
MinceRsomething complex and broken is forced on you without giving you a choice, and they claim it's simple and betterDec 07 03:56
cubexyzyou can put coreboot on quite a few Gigabyte motherboardsDec 07 03:57
MinceRbtw, 1984 was a cautionary tale, not an instruction manualDec 07 03:57
oiaohmThere is still on going debate if bootloader should be able to ship with KEK to add to boot system after user approval.Dec 07 03:59
oiaohmUEFI still could improve to less painful.Dec 07 04:00
MinceRthat's the wrong thing to debateDec 07 04:00
MinceRyes, setting the whole thing on fire and having the people responsible do menial work instead would improve it to less painfulDec 07 04:00
oiaohmMinceR: with BIOS we had random crash pain due to what it was doing in secret.   UEFI we have secure boot pain.   So we swapped on pain for another.Dec 07 04:02
MinceRreplacing governments with ones that actually enforce antitrust law would also be an improvementDec 07 04:02
oiaohmMind you UEFI has improved from starting location.Dec 07 04:02
MinceRoiaohm: thanks, but i'm not interested in trying out various instruments of torture on myself.Dec 07 04:02
MinceRthat only means the starting location was allegedly even worseDec 07 04:02
MinceRas long as it's worse than bios, i'm not interested in itDec 07 04:03
MinceRi'm not interested in replacing things with worse thingsDec 07 04:03
MinceRthis is also why i'm not an ideal m$ customerDec 07 04:03
oiaohmhttp://www.rodsbooks.com/efi-bootloaders/secureboot.html   This is what it was like in 2012Dec 07 04:03
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rodsbooks.com | Managing EFI Boot Loaders for Linux: Dealing with Secure BootDec 07 04:04
oiaohmNotice no means to clear the PK or set your own KEK.Dec 07 04:04
oiaohmSo now you had to use a shim loader that you had to have signed by Microsoft.Dec 07 04:04
MinceRno, in 2012 you could easily buy an x86 PC that could at least do "Legacy Boot"Dec 07 04:04
MinceRthat's going awayDec 07 04:04
MinceRand that's not an improvement.Dec 07 04:04
MinceRit's the opposite of an improvement.Dec 07 04:04
oiaohmEven in 2012 there was EFI boards without legacy boot.Dec 07 04:05
MinceRyes, and even in 2012 there was human excrementDec 07 04:05
MinceRyet i did not attempt to use that to do my computingDec 07 04:05
MinceRi used a general purpose computer.Dec 07 04:05
oiaohmPlease note legacy boot on old EFI.   EFI has still run it just loads some like SEABIOS as the loader.Dec 07 04:06
MinceRwhich is badDec 07 04:06
MinceRbut still not as bad as forced restricted bootDec 07 04:06
MinceRor restricted boot on by default with the switch cleverly hiddenDec 07 04:06
oiaohmThe idea is to push legacy bios to the EFI partition.Dec 07 04:06
MinceRthey're so clever when it comes to fucking customers overDec 07 04:07
oiaohmTo make it simpler to update.Dec 07 04:07
MinceRwhy are they never clever in a constructive way?Dec 07 04:07
MinceRyayDec 07 04:07
MinceRfinally a hdd malfunction can brick the pcDec 07 04:07
MinceRjust the thing i wanted!Dec 07 04:07
oiaohmNo you still have EFI to fall back on.Dec 07 04:07
MinceRyayDec 07 04:07
MinceRi have something unworkable to fall back onDec 07 04:07
MinceRso my brick can also function as a brickDec 07 04:07
MinceRhow handy!Dec 07 04:07
oiaohmMost annoying thing about some EFI implemtnations is boot from internal harddrive only.Dec 07 04:08
oiaohmNo USB drivers in firmware.Dec 07 04:09
MinceRyay, progressDec 07 04:09
MinceRit must take lots of ingenuity and hard work to fuck up things that used to workDec 07 04:09
MinceRconsidering the worship intel, m$ and redcrap receive for doing exactly thatDec 07 04:09
MinceR