Join us now at the IRC channel.
| <--Omega has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 00:03 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 20 00:19 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 00:23 | |
| <--msb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 20 00:31 | |
| -->msb__ (~msb_@c-98-248-33-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 00:33 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 01:16 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 01:17 | |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 20 02:17 | |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 02:22 | |
| -->WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 03:10 | |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 03:58 | |
| <--arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 05:23 | |
| -->arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 05:26 | |
| <--arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 05:39 | |
| -->arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 05:46 | |
| cubexyz | One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 06:43 |
|---|---|---|
| cubexyz | the idea that it's somehow the best OS is erroneous | Dec 20 06:44 |
| cubexyz | an OS that can destroy itself without any human interaction? | Dec 20 06:45 |
| cubexyz | updated foss matrix: | Dec 20 06:56 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/foss-matrix.txt | Dec 20 06:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: postscript printer is a bit old. Most advanced printers these days are pdf printers. | Dec 20 07:15 |
| oiaohm | Because pdf can store color correction profiles. | Dec 20 07:15 |
| cubexyz | what printer would you recommend, keeping in mind I use all sorts of oddball OSes | Dec 20 07:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you have to remember cups internally these days uses PDF. | Dec 20 07:18 |
| oiaohm | So as long as the OS you use can print by a cups print server PDF supporting printer would be good enough cubexyz | Dec 20 07:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the issue with postscript only printers is that postscript was really designed for black and white so color correction stuff does not have place to go in postscript. | Dec 20 07:22 |
| cubexyz | that's ok. My old HP LaserJet is B&W | Dec 20 07:22 |
| oiaohm | exchange has replacement openchange that allows you to use sogo to provide exchange protocol to outlook yet not run exchange itself. | Dec 20 07:33 |
| oiaohm | sogo is the groupware and openchange provides the exchnage protocol bits. | Dec 20 07:33 |
| oiaohm | Kinda explains why Microsoft is going after cloud so much. | Dec 20 07:33 |
| cubexyz | just encountered something new... | Dec 20 07:50 |
| cubexyz | a web site that works with flash9 but not 10 or 11 | Dec 20 07:50 |
| <--WeS has quit (Quit: Gtg See ya Later) | Dec 20 07:50 | |
| <--ohama has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) | Dec 20 08:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/678557009399123968 | Dec 20 08:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: @schestowitz #Facebook has always been 'highly selective' in what it bans/censors. | Dec 20 08:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MarvinHZalowitz/status/678560848210583552 | Dec 20 08:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MarvinHZalowitz: @schestowitz @SeaH2ONymph FACE BOOK: POLITICALLY CENSORED... I've been censored... | Dec 20 08:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/indy_johar/status/678561064536154113 | Dec 20 08:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@indy_johar: In an increasingly interdependent world - how do we do governance & then journalism? https://t.co/HwOOAGv2sc | Dec 20 08:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #AlJazeera Blocks Anti-Saudi Arabia Article https://t.co/SADPrwW47P Barbaria has so much to hide from the world. #censorship | Dec 20 08:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/_PaulMoseley_/status/678562245987721216 | Dec 20 08:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@_PaulMoseley_: @indy_johar @schestowitz @the_intercept demonstrate the benefits/abilities transparent and adaptive ecosystems hold over restrictive ones. | Dec 20 08:27 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png | Dec 20 08:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png ) | Dec 20 08:27 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that not only complex. I still remember the time with MS Office 2003 I opened every toolbar it had. | Dec 20 08:49 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: because you need a triange tool occupying 160 pixels of your screen all the time | Dec 20 08:54 |
| schestowitz | you know, you must draw triangles on your text every other minute... | Dec 20 08:55 |
| schestowitz | I personally minimise GUIs to what I actually use | Dec 20 08:55 |
| schestowitz | the rest I can find folded under menus | Dec 20 08:55 |
| schestowitz | less clutter, less likelihood of errors, higher speed, productivity | Dec 20 08:55 |
| schestowitz | same in web browsers | Dec 20 08:55 |
| cubexyz | schestowitz :) | Dec 20 08:56 |
| cubexyz | note to self: do not program overly elaborate toolbars | Dec 20 08:57 |
| cubexyz | I don't have any idea what half that stuff does | Dec 20 08:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/iPrivate404/status/678577331603132416 | Dec 20 09:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@iPrivate404: #Beware #SpyWare 🚩🆘 #NoSpy 🔎📵 https://t.co/5wdfkvBt0J | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile https://t.co/wkqlt7mOar ... https://t.co/HrfOY7e1Pp | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921638 | Dec 20 09:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile http://bgr.com/2015/12/17/government-surveillance-spy-catalog/ https://www.rt.com/usa/326361-secret-surveillance-catalog-intercept/ http://bgr.com/2015/12/18/nsa-spy-devices-cellphone-data-tracking/ | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | Government Surveillance: The devices used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtj ] | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.rt.com | Intercepted catalog shows off secret surveillance gear — RT USA [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtk ] | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | NSA spy devices: The scariest gadgets used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtl ] | Dec 20 09:08 | |
| schestowitz | glad I don't own a mobile | Dec 20 09:08 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 09:16 | |
| -->ohama (ohama@cicolina.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 09:18 | |
| MinceR | 124315 < cubexyz> One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 09:28 |
| MinceR | it's ideally fucked up | Dec 20 09:28 |
| MinceR | both in design and in implementation | Dec 20 09:28 |
| MinceR | but maybe poettering and his cult can outdo it! | Dec 20 09:28 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/El_racionalista/status/678618288914477057 | Dec 20 11:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@El_racionalista: @schestowitz @All4Privacy If it isn't free software, I can't trust it. How to know what is doing if you can't access the source code? | Dec 20 11:55 | |
| -->sabalmyrak (~lars@cm-84.208.229.82.getinternet.no) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 12:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678631710398005249 | Dec 20 12:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @schestowitz It is warm here in Kiev too. And still no snow(( | Dec 20 12:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678633566335582209 | Dec 20 12:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Крепостное право живее всех живых в Мире, наравне, конечно, с рабовладением. https://t.co/gVXH477fBE | Dec 20 12:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The far right-hand #heritagefoundation wants to conduct deep #surveillance for #immigration purposes https://t.co/yZdUkmmtGm | Dec 20 12:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kdghantous/status/678635329318879233 | Dec 20 12:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kdghantous: Do you have any idea how the energy industry works? Any idea at all? https://t.co/xtMefdWKLn | Dec 20 12:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #climatechange deniers (often funded by the oil industry) claim that throwing them aside is "censorship" https://t.co/RhvY36dd6X it's not | Dec 20 12:59 | |
| -->Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 13:22 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 15:34 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 15:43 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 15:43 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 15:43 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921407 | Dec 20 16:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of #Android Phone http://www.idigitaltimes.com/blackberry-priv-bb-3q-earnings-12-percent-following-release-android-phone-498932 #linux | Dec 20 16:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.idigitaltimes.com | BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of Android Phone [ http://ur1.ca/ocraw ] | Dec 20 16:49 | |
| schestowitz | "Hmm… I wonder if it is really the Android Phone as there should not be even 1 month of selling in those Q3 earnings report." | Dec 20 16:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/fth_nix/status/678697256711757824 | Dec 20 17:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@fth_nix: Please!!!!! https://t.co/KR7lvkbe0C | Dec 20 17:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: LEGO: The New Open Source Toy? https://t.co/Jtp2L0VDkx #lego #freesw #github | Dec 20 17:06 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 20 17:26 | |
| <--sabalmyrak has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 18:07 | |
| schestowitz | > Sorry, but I have not been here for a while. | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > The below link is all over the place in EPO, and outside. | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > nice video: | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > "EPO Management Discovers Media is Against It" | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | > I attach EPO-FLIER No. 18, it's funny too | Dec 20 19:14 |
| schestowitz | Glad people appreciate the video. Took nearly an hour to edit and all... could make it funnier if I put some time into it. | Dec 20 19:14 |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 19:42 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 20:23 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 20:34 | |
| schestowitz | Catching up with massive backlog at the moment. | Dec 20 21:12 |
| schestowitz | Wondering if SUEPO will ever translate this (nothing special in there based on an automated translation, but a "nice to have").... | Dec 20 21:12 |
| schestowitz | Junge Welt (11 December 2015) | Dec 20 21:12 |
| schestowitz | “Unrechtsstaat im Staate” | Dec 20 21:12 |
| schestowitz | Source: http://www.jungewelt.de/2015/12-11/020.php | Dec 20 21:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.jungewelt.de | 11.12.2015: Unrechtsstaat im Staate (Tageszeitung junge Welt) [ http://ur1.ca/ocrik ] | Dec 20 21:12 | |
| -->r_schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 21:33 | |
| <--r_schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 21:33 | |
| -->r_schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 21:33 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 21:33 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 20 21:33 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 21:34 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 21:34 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 21:34 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 00:38 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 21 02:22 | |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 04:16 | |
| -->cubeman_ (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 04:49 | |
| <--cubexyz has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 04:50 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Rumours say EPO’s President Battistelli’s proposal to reform the Boards of Appeal, move it out of Munich, and create a new oversight structure has just been rejected, Merpel says." | Dec 21 04:50 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/never-too-late-if-you-missed-ipkat-last_21.html | Dec 21 04:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Never too late: if you missed the IPKat last week [ http://ur1.ca/ocrvf ] | Dec 21 04:50 | |
| -->tessier_ (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 04:58 | |
| -->balrog_ (~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 05:02 | |
| <--tessier has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 05:12 | |
| <--trn has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 05:12 | |
| <--balrog has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 05:12 | |
| ---balrog_ is now known as balrog | Dec 21 05:12 | |
| -->trnv2 (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 05:12 | |
| ---trnv2 is now known as trn | Dec 21 05:20 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678885583893233664 | Dec 21 05:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: .@schestowitz Hrmbl. Red Hat Linux. Hrmbl. ;-) But our dedication to support open standards (ODF) clearly shows :-) | Dec 21 05:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890574003486720 https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890371087278080 | Dec 21 06:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz sorry, not a journalist, "independent researcher". | Dec 21 06:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz why would you expect a journalist spend more than five minutes while transcribing a press release in his own words? | Dec 21 06:04 | |
| r_schestowitz | Did I ever say Red Hat did not support ODF?! | Dec 21 06:04 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/678893451178569729 | Dec 21 06:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V https://t.co/xie5eu93lE #epo #battistelli | Dec 21 06:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V | Techrights | Dec 21 06:05 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678894450060500993 | Dec 21 06:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: @schestowitz I made a generic statement, not a correction or attack. Quite some out there question RHTs commitment to desktop/users | Dec 21 06:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6923011 | Dec 21 06:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Imagine giving the World Cup (e.g. in football) to the wrong team, only to realise the error one minute later. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvegBo4TUdQ | Dec 21 06:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.youtube.com | HD: (FULL) Steve Harvey Messes Up On Miss Universe 2015! COLOMBIA x Philippines - YouTube [ http://ur1.ca/ocrzh ] | Dec 21 06:48 | |
| <--cubeman_ has quit (Quit: Leaving) | Dec 21 06:51 | |
| -->cubexyz (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 06:51 | |
| -->amarsh04_ (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 08:32 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 21 08:32 | |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 21 09:20 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/ms-dirtytricks.txt | Dec 21 09:33 |
| cubexyz | another update | Dec 21 09:33 |
| cubexyz | "Microsoft was a criminal racket" | Dec 21 09:35 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you need to do some corrections to your SMB information there. https://www.samba.org/cifs/docs/smb-history.html | Dec 21 09:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.samba.org | History of SMB [ http://ur1.ca/ocs7i ] | Dec 21 09:42 | |
| cubexyz | guesses? | Dec 21 09:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: first SMB protocol is part of IBM PC Network Technical Reference No. 6322916, 1984. | Dec 21 09:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: dec implementation of SMB was based off the open documents by Intel and Microsoft on SMB. | Dec 21 09:45 |
| cubexyz | not disagreeing, the point was Microsoft wasn't the originator | Dec 21 09:48 |
| oiaohm | Interesting point early on Microsoft with SMB was well behaved. | Dec 21 09:48 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: in fact up until the year 2000 Microsoft was fairly well behaved. | Dec 21 09:49 |
| oiaohm | with SMB. | Dec 21 09:49 |
| cubexyz | yes qualify it :) | Dec 21 09:49 |
| cubexyz | and the 1984 implementation was NetBIOS, not samba | Dec 21 09:50 |
| cubexyz | everyone seems to agree that IBM invented NetBIOS | Dec 21 09:50 |
| cubexyz | doesn't seem too DEC-like | Dec 21 09:50 |
| oiaohm | Exactly you have to go back before samba to get a SMB protocol stuff without Microsoft involved. | Dec 21 09:51 |
| oiaohm | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission | Dec 21 09:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Microsoft Corp v Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/ocs7p ] | Dec 21 09:51 | |
| oiaohm | on network protocol stuff Microsoft started in 1998 and the like becoming a ass. | Dec 21 09:51 |
| cubexyz | DEC had DECnet of course | Dec 21 09:52 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: something to note. | Dec 21 09:52 |
| cubexyz | I think that was pre-TCP/IP even | Dec 21 09:52 |
| oiaohm | Jan 1, 1996 was the last time before the EU court case that Microsoft released how SMB worked. | Dec 21 09:53 |
| oiaohm | The mess is when Microsoft decided to do active directory and the like in 2000. | Dec 21 09:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so early on in places Microsoft was well behaved. The browser wars happen and all the good behavour goes out the window. | Dec 21 09:54 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft was bad from the very start though | Dec 21 09:54 |
| cubexyz | which you'll find in that ms-dirtytricks.txt file | Dec 21 09:54 |
| cubexyz | can't really say Microsoft was "well behaved" | Dec 21 09:55 |
| oiaohm | Some areas Microsoft was well behaved. | Dec 21 09:55 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft is not the only software company that was founded using stolen hardware. | Dec 21 09:55 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that's true | Dec 21 09:55 |
| cubexyz | we probably only know the tip of the iceberg | Dec 21 09:55 |
| cubexyz | my main complaint is there is no over-sight of Microsoft | Dec 21 09:56 |
| cubexyz | ah wait just a sec oiaohm ... | Dec 21 09:57 |
| cubexyz | wikipedia says NetBIOS was developed by Sytek | Dec 21 09:58 |
| cubexyz | for IBM PC network LAN tech | Dec 21 09:58 |
| cubexyz | Sytek later becomes Hughes LAN systems | Dec 21 10:00 |
| cubexyz | does anyone still use NetBIOS for anything now? | Dec 21 10:00 |
| cubexyz | windows 7 had NetBIOS over TCP/IP | Dec 21 10:02 |
| cubexyz | if DNS stops working windows uses netbios for network names | Dec 21 10:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you hear the term wins right cubexyz | Dec 21 10:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: windows and the WINS server. | Dec 21 10:03 |
| cubexyz | windows internet name service | Dec 21 10:03 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Internet_Name_Service | Dec 21 10:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Windows Internet Name Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 21 10:03 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: WINS is NetBIOS that is what is. | Dec 21 10:03 |
| cubexyz | but we really mainly use DNS | Dec 21 10:03 |
| cubexyz | or to put it another way... my computer lap uses TCP/IP | Dec 21 10:04 |
| cubexyz | so I | Dec 21 10:04 |
| cubexyz | so I've moved on from interoperating with microsoft | Dec 21 10:04 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft -> Lose. | Dec 21 10:05 |
| cubexyz | beyond web pages at least | Dec 21 10:05 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the fun part about Mcirosoft SMB http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/samba/book/ch07_03.html | Dec 21 10:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.oreilly.com | [Chapter 7] 7.3 Name Resolution with Samba [ http://ur1.ca/ocs88 ] | Dec 21 10:06 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: 3 over the wire solving. | Dec 21 10:06 |
| cubexyz | it's all microsoft mind pollution | Dec 21 10:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: most people are not aware https://technet.microsoft.com/en-au/library/cc770313.aspx that you have NIS, WINS(netbios), DNS and broadcast as ways of solving out IP address of a computer | Dec 21 10:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-technet.microsoft.com | Overview of Server for NIS [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8b ] | Dec 21 10:08 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so at times finding a flaw in any one of the 4 can cause a Microsoft network major hell. | Dec 21 10:08 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, don't you think people are starting to dump Microsoft? | Dec 21 10:09 |
| cubexyz | at least thinking about it? | Dec 21 10:09 |
| oiaohm | Groups are doing it. | Dec 21 10:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Migration does require compadiblity in stages of it. | Dec 21 10:14 |
| cubexyz | people shouldn't be suckers forever | Dec 21 10:14 |
| oiaohm | Really humans are suckers. | Dec 21 10:14 |
| oiaohm | You think how many business are putting there full operations in the cloud on servers they don't control. | Dec 21 10:14 |
| cubexyz | seems like a bad idea | Dec 21 10:15 |
| oiaohm | I know is a very bad idea. | Dec 21 10:15 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem with presuming people are not suckers. | Dec 21 10:15 |
| cubexyz | http://www.freemansperspective.com/must-dump-microsoft-now/ | Dec 21 10:15 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: think about how many people you know who use facebook. | Dec 21 10:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.freemansperspective.com | Why You Must Dump Microsoft NOW [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8j ] | Dec 21 10:15 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: remember facebook has performed human expernmentationon their members. | Dec 21 10:16 |
| oiaohm | http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/09/facebooks-mood-manipulation-experiment-might-be-illegal/380717/ | Dec 21 10:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theatlantic.com | Facebook's Mood Manipulation Experiment Might Have Been Illegal - The Atlantic [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8n ] | Dec 21 10:17 | |
| cubexyz | you know what burns me up... people have this stupid idea that dumping microsoft means going to apple | Dec 21 10:17 |
| cubexyz | no one seems to consider going Linix/BSD/Other | Dec 21 10:17 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: let be way more careful its not Just Microsoft who is nasty. | Dec 21 10:17 |
| cubexyz | oh, I don't like facebook | Dec 21 10:18 |
| cubexyz | just imagine how slow it runs on older computers :) | Dec 21 10:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: how many people going apple are also facebook users. | Dec 21 10:18 |
| cubexyz | a guy like me hates facebook... I'm in a category of one it seems | Dec 21 10:19 |
| cubexyz | the idea of minimalism is not at all popular | Dec 21 10:19 |
| cubexyz | the only exception is the classic computer crowd... but they aren't true minimalists | Dec 21 10:20 |
| cubexyz | apple is the polar opposite of my world-wide: they are conspicious consumption advocates! | Dec 21 10:21 |
| cubexyz | veblen goods | Dec 21 10:21 |
| oiaohm | I am part a realist. | Dec 21 10:21 |
| oiaohm | Until wayland on Linux is ready Linux doing a major marking attack for Desktop would be a death trap. | Dec 21 10:22 |
| cubexyz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_goods | Dec 21 10:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Veblen good - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/g9s4l ] | Dec 21 10:22 | |
| cubexyz | I'm a Vance Packardian :) | Dec 21 10:23 |
| oiaohm | systemd may not be absolutely liked. But there is a problem for the desktop. | Dec 21 10:25 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, what about all that xlib based source code? | Dec 21 10:25 |
| cubexyz | can it run on wayland? | Dec 21 10:25 |
| oiaohm | xwayland can be used to run x11 based application contained on Wayland. | Dec 21 10:26 |
| cubexyz | ok, sure, why not try it then | Dec 21 10:26 |
| cubexyz | got to be willing to try new ideas | Dec 21 10:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: X11 cannot do secure login screens and other key parts. | Dec 21 10:26 |
| oiaohm | So X11 has to become sandboxed. | Dec 21 10:26 |
| oiaohm | Next problem is performance. | Dec 21 10:27 |
| oiaohm | this is where init systems like systemd come in. | Dec 21 10:27 |
| MinceR | there's a long list of things current wayland implementations can't do | Dec 21 10:27 |
| MinceR | and systemd is not an init system | Dec 21 10:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: List of what wayland cannot do is reducing every release. | Dec 21 10:27 |
| MinceR | all these arguments are like poettering's bullshit about how systemd is better than everything else | Dec 21 10:28 |
| MinceR | with his bullshit table | Dec 21 10:28 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: we have yet to see if they even intend to do what x11 could already do | Dec 21 10:28 |
| cubexyz | I don't think anyone here is saying that though | Dec 21 10:28 |
| MinceR | like decouple the window manager from the windowing system | Dec 21 10:28 |
| oiaohm | Lets look at how come windows desktop performs so well. Load up 2 identical benchmarking applications 1 in background and 1 in forground. Guess what on desktop Windows the one in forground gets 3 times the cpu time of the one in background. | Dec 21 10:30 |
| cubexyz | don't forget old X ran on some pretty old hardware | Dec 21 10:30 |
| cubexyz | remember IBM RT? It had X | Dec 21 10:31 |
| cubexyz | MicroVAX had X | Dec 21 10:31 |
| oiaohm | Same biasing exists on Windows desktop to reduce the cpu consume of the services in background. | Dec 21 10:31 |
| cubexyz | so it shouldn't be turtle slow now | Dec 21 10:31 |
| MinceR | "Lets look at how come windows desktop performs so well." | Dec 21 10:31 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 21 10:31 |
| MinceR | have you even seen a windows desktop up close? | Dec 21 10:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have. | Dec 21 10:32 |
| cubexyz | I thought XP was slow | Dec 21 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Even that windows benchmarks many time lower than Linux. | Dec 21 10:32 |
| MinceR | what you mentioned is just a crap workaround for the windows task scheduler being crap | Dec 21 10:32 |
| cubexyz | and it just got slower and slower over time | Dec 21 10:32 |
| oiaohm | Lot of differnet end users will say LInux after a clean install appears slow. | Dec 21 10:32 |
| MinceR | also, any window manager could do that if desired | Dec 21 10:32 |
| MinceR | but it is not | Dec 21 10:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will winblows stop randomly losing focus? | Dec 21 10:33 |
| oiaohm | Of course Windows has massive number of design flaws. | Dec 21 10:33 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will winblows start properly supporting usb input devices? | Dec 21 10:33 |
| cubexyz | so think 4.3BSD running on microvax with X... ahead of it's time | Dec 21 10:33 |
| MinceR | when will be the year of winblows on the desktop? | Dec 21 10:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: windows has had it year on the desktop. | Dec 21 10:33 |
| MinceR | when? | Dec 21 10:33 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm is overlooking a lot of history | Dec 21 10:33 |
| oiaohm | The problem is undoing it footing. | Dec 21 10:33 |
| MinceR | he's overlooking a lot of facts | Dec 21 10:33 |
| MinceR | but i guess it comes with buying into lendows | Dec 21 10:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: My machine here is pure Debian. | Dec 21 10:34 |
| MinceR | after all, the whole point of lendows is to replace gnu/linux with reimplementations of winblows design flaws | Dec 21 10:34 |
| MinceR | debian 8? | Dec 21 10:34 |
| oiaohm | I have not bought a copy of Windows in 10 years. | Dec 21 10:34 |
| MinceR | when i switched from winblows to gnu/linux with x, the performance improvements were very noticeable | Dec 21 10:34 |
| MinceR | even the slowest wm performed faster than winblows | Dec 21 10:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I am running debian 9. | Dec 21 10:35 |
| MinceR | so, lendows | Dec 21 10:35 |
| MinceR | prboom ran smoother on gnu/linux with sw synth than on winblows with hw synth | Dec 21 10:35 |
| cubexyz | just thinking about giving microsoft money makes me feel ill | Dec 21 10:35 |
| MinceR | same | Dec 21 10:36 |
| -->jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 10:36 | |
| MinceR | pretty much all of that money is used to oppress us even more | Dec 21 10:36 |
| oiaohm | Main reason why I hate windows is I switch between applications a lot so the 3x speed up to forground does me no good. | Dec 21 10:36 |
| cubexyz | at least there's chromebooks | Dec 21 10:36 |
| MinceR | see, it's a bad idea | Dec 21 10:36 |
| MinceR | it's only there to try and make it seem like it's not slowing the computer to a crawl | Dec 21 10:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but lots of users only use 1 or two applications at a time. | Dec 21 10:37 |
| MinceR | giving input to a certain application is not the same as wanting a certain application to have extra cpu time | Dec 21 10:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: in which case it doesn't even matter | Dec 21 10:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: o yes it does I said only use 1 or 2 applications at a time not that they were only running 1 or 2 applications at a time. | Dec 21 10:38 |
| oiaohm | Its why people migrate to Linux then complain it don't perform and we end up wondering what in hell Linux is most of the time faster. | Dec 21 10:38 |
| cubexyz | X didn't just run on microvax but _old_ microvax 3000s | Dec 21 10:39 |
| MinceR | then have wayland also change priorities | Dec 21 10:39 |
| MinceR | if the objective is to copy winblows anyway | Dec 21 10:39 |
| MinceR | one more stupid unconfigurable misfeature should be great | Dec 21 10:39 |
| oiaohm | wayland using kernel mode setting and kernel mode allocation of resources. Its makes it way more possible for the scheduler in kernel to know what application is in fact the current active one. | Dec 21 10:40 |
| MinceR | it's trivial for a window manager to run renice on focus change | Dec 21 10:41 |
| MinceR | this isn't rocket science | Dec 21 10:41 |
| oiaohm | Not in fact under X11. | Dec 21 10:41 |
| MinceR | why, does the window manager not know where the focus is? | Dec 21 10:41 |
| oiaohm | X11 servers are not required to get the correct process information of the applications connected to them. | Dec 21 10:41 |
| MinceR | or does it not know the PIDs despite having EWMH extensions? | Dec 21 10:42 |
| MinceR | afaik there's a property that stores the pid of the process for the window | Dec 21 10:42 |
| oiaohm | X11 client application is free to set the displayed PID to what ever it likes. | Dec 21 10:42 |
| MinceR | yes, and you can screw up windows in a million ways | Dec 21 10:42 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 21 10:42 |
| oiaohm | This is big bad problem with X11 this stuff is not secure. | Dec 21 10:42 |
| MinceR | i'm tired of people pretending winblows is perfect when trying to sell its design flaws | Dec 21 10:43 |
| oiaohm | So wm attempting to renice PID 1 or 0 would not be parituclar good. | Dec 21 10:43 |
| MinceR | ooh, because windows is? | Dec 21 10:43 |
| MinceR | actually it wouldn't do anything as it's not running as root | Dec 21 10:43 |
| oiaohm | Old X11 server before KMS does run as root. | Dec 21 10:43 |
| MinceR | the window manager doesn't run as root | Dec 21 10:43 |
| MinceR | remember, x is modular | Dec 21 10:44 |
| MinceR | the windowing system is not the same as the window manager | Dec 21 10:44 |
| oiaohm | X11 server did include means to renice processors. You hope you X11 server is not built with them. | Dec 21 10:44 |
| MinceR | yes, i do | Dec 21 10:44 |
| MinceR | and from what i've seen, it wasn't | Dec 21 10:44 |
| MinceR | "mechanism, not policy" | Dec 21 10:44 |
| MinceR | it does not belong in the x server | Dec 21 10:44 |
| cubexyz | what uses wayland? | Dec 21 10:45 |
| cubexyz | which distros use it? | Dec 21 10:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: fedora 24 the next one out is planing that the login screens will be wayland. Fedora 23 has optional wayland modes. Of course there are issues with lack of closed soruce drivers and so on. | Dec 21 10:49 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 21 10:49 |
| MinceR | the boot logo won't be wayland? :> | Dec 21 10:49 |
| oiaohm | Changing the login screens to wayland makes sense. | Dec 21 10:49 |
| cubexyz | what if I want wayland but don't want systemd? | Dec 21 10:50 |
| MinceR | you're SOL, i guess | Dec 21 10:50 |
| MinceR | maybe consolekit2 or something will let you run it | Dec 21 10:51 |
| MinceR | maybe not | Dec 21 10:51 |
| oiaohm | Running wayland or X11 without root rights requires a logind server of some form. | Dec 21 10:51 |
| MinceR | they don't care anyway | Dec 21 10:51 |
| cubexyz | doesn't seem too appealing | Dec 21 10:51 |
| oiaohm | yes consolekit2 logind will do. | Dec 21 10:51 |
| MinceR | it's appealing to people who believe winblows design flaws are features | Dec 21 10:51 |
| oiaohm | People who think that Windows is only flaws and not mangaged to get anything right are the people who would throw a baby out with the bath water. | Dec 21 10:52 |
| oiaohm | I am not saying Microsoft has not got a lot wrong. | Dec 21 10:52 |
| oiaohm | But a few things they did get right for particular usage cases. | Dec 21 10:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, with windows we have no OS source code and no control | Dec 21 10:53 |
| MinceR | funny thing to see a cancerd apologist talking about throwing babies out with the bathwater | Dec 21 10:53 |
| MinceR | but you do have all sorts of unrelated stuff crammed together in the same process, or in the kernel | Dec 21 10:53 |
| cubexyz | ok. we have most of NT4 and part of win2k but still.... | Dec 21 10:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I agree with items like no source code and no control is some of Windows biggest problems. | Dec 21 10:53 |
| MinceR | you have a broken task scheduler, a broken windowing system, a broken usb stack | Dec 21 10:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have not said systemd is perfect either. | Dec 21 10:54 |
| MinceR | i think its biggest problem is that it's designed and implemented by idiots and overseen by evil idiots | Dec 21 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Something systemd does are the right path. | Dec 21 10:54 |
| MinceR | it inherited the "dave cutler hates unix" design principle from vms | Dec 21 10:54 |
| MinceR | and added some similarly idiotic ones | Dec 21 10:54 |
| cubexyz | I mean several of my customers told me windows 10 put their computer in a state where they couldn't reinstall the OS | Dec 21 10:54 |
| oiaohm | Other things like shoving way too much into pid 1 that systemd has done is wrong. Yes even the recent systemd conference started talking about addressing that. | Dec 21 10:55 |
| MinceR | like what? using cgroups for things cgroups aren't ready for yet? | Dec 21 10:55 |
| cubexyz | so for now, I remain on FC1, OpenBSD, Q4OS, and ancient Unix | Dec 21 10:55 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing their closed, unstable, secret APIs? | Dec 21 10:55 |
| cubexyz | and slackware :) | Dec 21 10:55 |
| cubexyz | probably never | Dec 21 10:55 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing their fascistic attitude? | Dec 21 10:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a dispute between cgroup kernel group and systemd designers. cgroup kernel group only wants to give 1 process control of cgroups. systemd wants to have many. | Dec 21 10:56 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing that they killed most gnu/linux distros with their microsoftesque tactics? | Dec 21 10:56 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing that they're trying to force Linus to fuck up the kernel? | Dec 21 10:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: did you watch the systemd conference videos? | Dec 21 10:56 |
| MinceR | no | Dec 21 10:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I 100 percent guess not. | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | i'm not interested in winblows fanboy circlejerk | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | especially not in poettering | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | that retard doesn't even know software engineering 101 | Dec 21 10:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: why because all the crap you just spewed you hear the guys running large systems say this has to be addressed here is plans todo i. | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | then again, neither does dave cutler, apparently | Dec 21 10:57 |
| cubexyz | note that with X Window System we can run Linux stuff on BSD which is nice | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing the fact that they're putting the cart before the horse? | Dec 21 10:57 |
| cubexyz | doesn't exist on BSD? No problem! | Dec 21 10:57 |
| MinceR | fix your design first, force your stuff on every distro later | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: we will probably have to | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | eventually | Dec 21 10:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: unforntantly that is not even how sysvinit was first deployed into Linux. | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | people like gregkh will eventually fuck up Linux completely | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sysvinit is easy to swap out | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: systemd isn't | Dec 21 10:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: history with Linux with lots of core services is cart first horse secend. | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | do you know why? because sysvinit is an init system, and systemd is cancer | Dec 21 10:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: maybe if lendows folks spent as much energy on design as they do on lame excuses, lendows wouldn't be so crap | Dec 21 10:59 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will they start documenting their shitty, unreadable source code? | Dec 21 10:59 |
| oiaohm | Really come on open up early apache some time. | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | almost nothing depends on apache | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | gnome, kde and waylandows depend on systemd | Dec 21 11:00 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the early projects are full of shitty unreadable code. | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | see the difference? | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | early projects are not mandatory to use by distros | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | also, note that systemd has spent 4 years as default in fedora when it was forced into debian | Dec 21 11:00 |
| oiaohm | I have told you gnome, kde and wayland connection is logind. | Dec 21 11:00 |
| MinceR | and it was still an unreliable mess | Dec 21 11:01 |
| oiaohm | BSD is implementing there own version of logind. | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | actually, gnome and kde are doing more than just logind | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | yay, bsd has capitulated | Dec 21 11:01 |
| oiaohm | what features do you think kde and gnome are using. | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | hopefully some of them have enough of a clue to not turn into winblows | Dec 21 11:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: BSD world put up the logind idea. | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-datetimed | Dec 21 11:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Logind predates systemd. | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-hostnamed | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-catd | Dec 21 11:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-bashd | Dec 21 11:02 |
| MinceR | systemd-emacsd | Dec 21 11:02 |
| MinceR | why store executables on your filesystems if you can run daemons all the time? | Dec 21 11:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: what has happened is systemd has taken in a stack of what was independant projects. | Dec 21 11:02 |
| MinceR | and turned them into dependent projects | Dec 21 11:02 |
| MinceR | and forced them on everyone they could using microsoftesque tactics | Dec 21 11:03 |
| MinceR | without spending any effort on making them not suck | Dec 21 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Something to remember most of the project systemd took over where unmaintained. | Dec 21 11:03 |
| oiaohm | Yet everyone was using them. | Dec 21 11:03 |
| MinceR | >everyone | Dec 21 11:03 |
| MinceR | [citation needed] | Dec 21 11:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: udev had not had a offical maitnained for 12 months before systemd took it in. | Dec 21 11:05 |
| MinceR | and it was better off without that | Dec 21 11:05 |
| MinceR | it used to be independently usable | Dec 21 11:05 |
| MinceR | then systemd assimilated | Dec 21 11:05 |
| MinceR | poettering lied when he said it will remain independently usable | Dec 21 11:05 |
| oiaohm | Not really first thing when udev was taken in was 22 security flaws fixed. | Dec 21 11:05 |
| MinceR | they took udev and fucked it up | Dec 21 11:06 |
| oiaohm | It was fucked up before they took it in. | Dec 21 11:06 |
| MinceR | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hotplug.devel/17392 | Dec 21 11:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-article.gmane.org | Gmane -- The future of the udev source tree | Dec 21 11:06 | |
| oiaohm | due to the unmaintained status. | Dec 21 11:06 |
| MinceR | http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html | Dec 21 11:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.freedesktop.org | [systemd-devel] [PATCH] Drop the udev firmware loader [ http://ur1.ca/ir0kd ] | Dec 21 11:06 | |
| MinceR | it worked regardless of what you ran in pid1 before | Dec 21 11:06 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: complaining about firmware loader. Please tell me what Linux kernel version number you could no longer use the udev firmware loader any how because userspace firmware loading had been terminated. | Dec 21 11:08 |
| MinceR | ask poettering | Dec 21 11:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no | Dec 21 11:10 |
| oiaohm | The answer is 2.6.0 | Dec 21 11:10 |
| oiaohm | The feature has been in udev for a long time and did not work at all. | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | 2012-04-03 16:15:13 GMT > The udev built from the systemd source tree will stay compatible with | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | non-systemd init systems for a long time. | Dec 21 11:10 |
| oiaohm | Last stable kernels that could use the firmware loading feature was 2.4.x series. | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | May 31 22:45:17 PDT 2014 > Unless the systemd-haters prepare another | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | spot the contradiction. | Dec 21 11:10 |
| MinceR | also notice the attitude towards a distro that attempts to give users the choice ratcrap is trying to remove. | Dec 21 11:11 |
| oiaohm | evdev in gentoo does not contain userspace firmware loading code either. | Dec 21 11:11 |
| oiaohm | Because it pointless in most cases. | Dec 21 11:11 |
| MinceR | you know what else is pointless? | Dec 21 11:11 |
| oiaohm | Somethings cut away are the right thing MinceR | Dec 21 11:12 |
| MinceR | claiming winblows is perfect and turning gnu/linux into winblows, when you could already use the winblows you already have | Dec 21 11:12 |
| oiaohm | I don't claim Windows is perfect MinceR | Dec 21 11:12 |
| MinceR | fucking buy a winblows license or download winblows and use it | Dec 21 11:12 |
| oiaohm | Neither do most people interested in systemd. | Dec 21 11:12 |
| MinceR | then why do they insist on copying every single design flaw from winblows? | Dec 21 11:12 |
| oiaohm | In fact I don't know of one person interested in systemd who says Windows is perfect. | Dec 21 11:13 |
| MinceR | and why do they insist on shoving the results down everybody's throats? | Dec 21 11:13 |
| oiaohm | I have shown you before that the design flaws are not coming from windows. | Dec 21 11:13 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe stuffing tons of unrelated shit into the same process is a good idea | Dec 21 11:13 |
| oiaohm | You have high end server users working with solaris and the like attempting to bring the features offer. | Dec 21 11:13 |
| MinceR | otherwise they would not be doing it! | Dec 21 11:13 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe shoving stuff that does not belong in the kernel into the kernel | Dec 21 11:13 |
| MinceR | otherwise they would not be doing it! | Dec 21 11:13 |
| oiaohm | Unreleated crap in the same process that has happened over and over again in the Unix world. | Dec 21 11:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that removing the separation between windowing system, window manager and gui toolkit is a good idea | Dec 21 11:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that client-side decorations are a good idea | Dec 21 11:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I guess you have never used busybox. | Dec 21 11:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that not supporting virtual consoles is a good idea | Dec 21 11:14 |
| MinceR | busybox is a special case | Dec 21 11:14 |
| MinceR | also note that most distros don't force you to use busybox | Dec 21 11:15 |
| MinceR | and no desktop environments do! | Dec 21 11:15 |
| MinceR | there was no pressure put on debian to make them replace gnu with busybox | Dec 21 11:15 |
| oiaohm | bash is more shell than you need to start the system. | Dec 21 11:15 |
| MinceR | there's no troll horde roaming irc attacking people for not liking busybox | Dec 21 11:15 |
| oiaohm | bash is another example of lets keep on shoving features in there. | Dec 21 11:15 |
| MinceR | and yet i can use other shells | Dec 21 11:16 |
| MinceR | even at the same time! | Dec 21 11:16 |
| MinceR | gnome and kde don't depend on bash either, do they? | Dec 21 11:16 |
| oiaohm | Remember after bash got too heavy you have cart after horse people work it out and make dash. | Dec 21 11:16 |
| oiaohm | This is kinda how it works. | Dec 21 11:16 |
| MinceR | yet nobody is using dirty tricks to force either bash or dash on anyone, somehow | Dec 21 11:17 |
| MinceR | if you honestly believe systemd, kdbus and wayland are so great, why not let people choose what they like? | Dec 21 11:17 |
| MinceR | if they're so great, everyone will use them, right? | Dec 21 11:17 |
| oiaohm | To be correct bash extentions were forced into because lot of applications wrote sysvinit scripts that depended on them. | Dec 21 11:17 |
| MinceR | why try to crush dissent? | Dec 21 11:18 |
| MinceR | and when did runit, upstart or daemontools start using sysvinit scripts? | Dec 21 11:18 |
| MinceR | (and i could keep going) | Dec 21 11:18 |
| oiaohm | upstart did from the start. | Dec 21 11:18 |
| oiaohm | At the cost of stablity at times. | Dec 21 11:18 |
| MinceR | when did having a sysvinit script preclude you from starting a daemon without using that script? | Dec 21 11:18 |
| MinceR | well yes, upstart is a broken mess | Dec 21 11:18 |
| MinceR | but systemd makes upstart look good | Dec 21 11:19 |
| oiaohm | upstart was never going to get the profesional server maintaince people to work on it due to Ubuntu contributer agreement. | Dec 21 11:19 |
| MinceR | and what good are the Professional Server Maintenance People at ratcrap? | Dec 21 11:20 |
| oiaohm | Its those professional service maintaince people who are now talking about reworking large sections of systemd. | Dec 21 11:20 |
| MinceR | they don't have a single software engineer among them | Dec 21 11:20 |
| oiaohm | Sorry don't be insulting. | Dec 21 11:20 |
| MinceR | any software engineer would have told you that cohesion is not just a myth unix people came up with | Dec 21 11:20 |
| oiaohm | They do have software engineers. That is the thing. | Dec 21 11:20 |
| MinceR | software engineers that don't know it's a bad idea to stuff unrelated components together? | Dec 21 11:21 |
| MinceR | software engineers that don't know it's a bad idea to write cryptic, undocumented code? | Dec 21 11:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: everything you are saying again is covered in the systemd conference video. | Dec 21 11:21 |
| MinceR | i'm sure | Dec 21 11:21 |
| oiaohm | They argree absolutely that stuff has to be fixed. | Dec 21 11:21 |
| MinceR | does poettering ask for forgiveness for fucking up debian? | Dec 21 11:21 |
| MinceR | do they admit it was a mistake to pretend that they were peddling broken shit for over 4 years? | Dec 21 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Even against poettering it was funny to watch poettering eatting humble pie in one video. | Dec 21 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Over not allowing particular dbus fixes in. | Dec 21 11:22 |
| MinceR | did they commit to fixing their attitude? | Dec 21 11:22 |
| oiaohm | Percentage of all groups in software development have bad attitude. | Dec 21 11:22 |
| MinceR | claiming that they'll patch their code eventually is not sufficient | Dec 21 11:22 |
| MinceR | how many of those groups have succeeded at nearly killing unix? | Dec 21 11:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you really need to watch the humble pie video. | Dec 21 11:23 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: actions speak louder than words. | Dec 21 11:23 |
| MinceR | where's my _stable_ debian/raspbian 8? | Dec 21 11:23 |
| cubexyz | no one killed unix | Dec 21 11:29 |
| MinceR | also, where's the guarantee that next time a cult tries to destroy unix they're actually stopped in time? | Dec 21 11:29 |
| cubexyz | the BSDs are still plugging away | Dec 21 11:29 |
| MinceR | not for lack of trying by ratcrap | Dec 21 11:29 |
| MinceR | yes, and some of them already discussed adopting launchd and systemd APIs | Dec 21 11:29 |
| cubexyz | the OpenBSD folks are pretty conservative | Dec 21 11:31 |
| cubexyz | there is no launchd in OpenBSD :) | Dec 21 11:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly what is unstable about Debian 8 using systemd. This has been the funny thing. Lot of noise about systemd being end of earth when it not. | Dec 21 11:33 |
| MinceR | debian 8 forces systemd by default, and removes other packages if you tell it to remove systemd | Dec 21 11:33 |
| MinceR | debian forcing unstable sw to be used by default in a "stable" release means that release is not stable | Dec 21 11:34 |
| MinceR | debian is not stable, it is not universal, it is not free anymore | Dec 21 11:34 |
| cubexyz | opacity and complexity are assoicated with "modernity", which is silly | Dec 21 11:34 |
| MinceR | all this happened because of entryism from ratcrap and the lendows cult | Dec 21 11:34 |
| MinceR | making a show of admitting they were wrong isn't bringing back what they destroyed | Dec 21 11:35 |
| MinceR | and i doubt they're even sincerely doing that | Dec 21 11:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: just a case if you not know what you are doing. https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim guess why this exists. | Dec 21 11:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim ) | Dec 21 11:35 | |
| MinceR | yeah, it's my fault | Dec 21 11:35 |
| oiaohm | core of systemd is removable. | Dec 21 11:35 |
| MinceR | it exists to have you use systemd parts and APIs even if you try to not use systemd | Dec 21 11:35 |
| cubexyz | there was an earlier init schism: BSD vs SysV | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | i don't want to remove the core | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | i want to remove the whole thing | Dec 21 11:36 |
| cubexyz | we survived that | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | i never asked for any part of systemd | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | i wanted to use a free unix, not a nonfree windows imitation. | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: both of those are mature and work well | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also, you can swap one out for the other and for yet others | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | cancerd hooks itself into your system with a million tentacles | Dec 21 11:36 |
| MinceR | they know it's unusable shit, so they try to deprive you of the power to remove it | Dec 21 11:37 |
| cubexyz | I can use a push lawnmower if I want... you can't really force new tech on me :) | Dec 21 11:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so if lets say they had named it as some other library put in a independ repository you most likely would not have cared right? | Dec 21 11:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if it was an independent library that didn't affect other software, i likely would not have cared much | Dec 21 11:37 |
| MinceR | maybe if it resulted in its dependents getting noticeably heavy, i would have abandoned them for alternatives eventually | Dec 21 11:38 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: unfortunately, it is not an independent library | Dec 21 11:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: effectively what the shim does i build the bare min library parts to keep applications attempting to use systemd libraries happy. | Dec 21 11:38 |
| MinceR | it's something like a second kernel that demands to run as pid1, and a bunch of daemons you must have, along with dbus | Dec 21 11:38 |
| MinceR | and dbus is crap as well | Dec 21 11:38 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: those applications demand too much | Dec 21 11:39 |
| oiaohm | The shim does not demard pid1 or lots of dbus crap. | Dec 21 11:39 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: also, most of them can still be built to not depend on this crap | Dec 21 11:39 |
| MinceR | it's just that the pod people at debian no longer care | Dec 21 11:39 |
| MinceR | they're catering to the people who want debian to be a fedora with a different logo and name first | Dec 21 11:39 |
| oiaohm | Sorry building them not to care requires upstream alterations. | Dec 21 11:39 |
| MinceR | and people who want something workable second, or never | Dec 21 11:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the upstreams have been pricks. | Dec 21 11:40 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i guess that means devuan folks are practicing magic | Dec 21 11:40 |
| MinceR | since they have already fixed several debian packages to not need systemd | Dec 21 11:40 |
| oiaohm | devuan have kept most of the libraries. | Dec 21 11:40 |
| oiaohm | Just put the libraries under a differnet package name. | Dec 21 11:40 |
| oiaohm | Lets just say you have been slide of handed MinceR | Dec 21 11:40 |
| MinceR | yes, i have been tricked into believing that what i'm doing with debian 7 every day is possible! | Dec 21 11:41 |
| oiaohm | The applications could have been coded to use dlopen on systemd libraries and if they were missing function anyhow. | Dec 21 11:41 |
| MinceR | "you can't do X without systemd!" -- yet here i am, doing it without systemd | Dec 21 11:41 |
| MinceR | must be my fault | Dec 21 11:41 |
| MinceR | dlopen can fail without aborting the process | Dec 21 11:42 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Dec 21 11:42 |
| MinceR | that's not the issue with debian | Dec 21 11:42 |
| oiaohm | Upstream projects implmeenting systemd support have been horible | Dec 21 11:42 |
| oiaohm | Like if you don't have systemd flaged on the upstream project not building/providing unit files. You turn it on links the systemd libraries straight on so they must be exist or service will not load. | Dec 21 11:44 |
| MinceR | then it's easy to fix | Dec 21 11:45 |
| MinceR | tell the upstream project to not use systemd at configure time | Dec 21 11:45 |
| oiaohm | And detect presense at runtime and act correctly if it present. Like you want to use watchdog timer if it provided and the like on particular services. | Dec 21 11:46 |
| MinceR | no, act as if it isn't present at runtime | Dec 21 11:46 |
| MinceR | regardless | Dec 21 11:46 |
| MinceR | if the lendows people want their shiny shit, they can: a) use fedora b) use windows c) build a systemd-dependent package with a different name | Dec 21 11:47 |
| oiaohm | Watchdog code is not uniform. So acting like systemd is not there means supporting 14 different solutions. | Dec 21 11:47 |
| oiaohm | This is one case of a missing library. | Dec 21 11:47 |
| MinceR | i don't see why they have to fuck things up for all professional users to accommodate their broken hipster crap | Dec 21 11:47 |
| MinceR | or simply not expecting it at all | Dec 21 11:48 |
| oiaohm | Also systemd is in places trimming down. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-June/032621.html | Dec 21 11:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.freedesktop.org | [systemd-devel] [PATCH] mount: use libmount to monitor mountinfo &utab [ http://ur1.ca/ocscn ] | Dec 21 11:48 | |
| MinceR | nobody asked for the pointless "modern" "features" poettering came up with to justify fucking up unix for us. | Dec 21 11:48 |
| oiaohm | Like dropping out there own mount monitoring code and going back to common core. | Dec 21 11:48 |
| MinceR | ooh, they've trimmed a few grams of fat from the sun-sized blob of bloat! | Dec 21 11:48 |
| MinceR | notice that my complaint was not that cancerd was just a tiny bit too bloated | Dec 21 11:49 |
| MinceR | and afaik nobody's complaint was that | Dec 21 11:49 |
| MinceR | there's another thing | Dec 21 11:49 |
| oiaohm | Part of trimming systemd down is waking up some of the reason its bloated in places is no defined interfaces for stacks of things. | Dec 21 11:49 |
| oiaohm | They were not defined before systemd either. | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | once poettering decides that dnf/rpm could also be nicely built into systemd, debian will be mandated to switch package managers | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | what distinction between fedora and debian will remain then? | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | for what do they have to fuck up debian if all they wanted was in fedora already? | Dec 21 11:50 |
| oiaohm | Interesting enough RPM is a warped on. | Dec 21 11:50 |
| oiaohm | on/one | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | remember, package managers were often attacked as a main point of diversity (they call it "fragmentation") between distros | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | that must be standardized | Dec 21 11:50 |
| MinceR | like the rest of cancerd | Dec 21 11:51 |
| MinceR | if they want the One True Distro which they already have, why kill off all the others? | Dec 21 11:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://rpm5.org/ supports RPM and Deb packages. | Dec 21 11:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-rpm5.org | rpm package manager | Dec 21 11:51 | |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 21 11:52 |
| MinceR | it's still an unreliable broken piece of shit | Dec 21 11:52 |
| MinceR | especially with YUM or DNF | Dec 21 11:52 |
| MinceR | they pretend running "transactions" but if it breaks, you have no way to roll back out of it | Dec 21 11:52 |
| MinceR | all they do is prevent you from doing any package management until you reinstall the whole system | Dec 21 11:53 |
| oiaohm | The idea with allowing so many Linux Distrobutions to exist in the first place is the the strong would in the end kill of the weaker. | Dec 21 11:54 |
| MinceR | and apparently it's a microsoftesque definition of "strong" and "weak" | Dec 21 11:54 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter if debian 7 was a lot more mature, stable and usable than any ratcrap distro | Dec 21 11:54 |
| MinceR | they didn't have the leverage over gnome and gnome had all the leverage over them | Dec 21 11:54 |
| MinceR | so debian had to die | Dec 21 11:54 |
| MinceR | also, i didn't know it was up to some asshole like gates or poettering to "allow" distros to exist | Dec 21 11:55 |
| oiaohm | systemd is nothing more than a Linux world natural selection trigger. | Dec 21 11:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly what stops systemd from being replaced in future. | Dec 21 11:56 |
| oiaohm | The answer is nothing more than enough will. | Dec 21 11:56 |
| oiaohm | Its not like sysvinit was a perfect fit. | Dec 21 11:57 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: the numerous dependencies on it in various DEs and applications; and the secret APIs | Dec 21 11:57 |
| MinceR | compared to systemd or upstart, sysvinit was indeed perfect | Dec 21 11:57 |
| oiaohm | the secret api idea does not hold with systemd. | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | what makes you think that entryism and abuse of leverage is "natural"? | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | sure, they tell you some of their APIs are stable | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | but then they go ahead and change them | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | and their own stuff doesn't only use the APIs they call stable | Dec 21 11:58 |
| oiaohm | Not true again. | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | pretty much the same as microsoft | Dec 21 11:58 |
| MinceR | then go ask the guy who tried to develop loginkit. | Dec 21 11:59 |
| oiaohm | The API/ABI systemd has declared stable has stayed that way. | Dec 21 11:59 |
| MinceR | what APIs did GDM try to use. | Dec 21 11:59 |
| MinceR | yeah, right | Dec 21 11:59 |
| oiaohm | Problem is the percentage declared stable is still very small. | Dec 21 11:59 |
| MinceR | and the tooth fairy exists too, right? | Dec 21 11:59 |
| oiaohm | No MinceR | Dec 21 11:59 |
| oiaohm | Its not that they are breaking the ABI declared stable. | Dec 21 11:59 |
| MinceR | iirc that happened too | Dec 21 12:00 |
| oiaohm | Its the case very little of the systemd ABI has been declared stable. | Dec 21 12:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you did out what has been declared you will find every case has been using something not declared. | Dec 21 12:00 |
| MinceR | so, you admit that most of the API you're not supposed to use | Dec 21 12:00 |
| MinceR | and yet gnome uses it | Dec 21 12:00 |
| MinceR | which company's practices does this remind you of? | Dec 21 12:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem is you want to say microsoft alone but just look at all the applications using boost and the like. | Dec 21 12:01 |
| MinceR | i don't know much about boost | Dec 21 12:01 |
| oiaohm | There are a huge number of libraries that are offically 100 percent unstable abi yet tones of programs use it. | Dec 21 12:02 |
| MinceR | which of them are forced on users? | Dec 21 12:02 |
| MinceR | and who pretends that this is a good thing in those cases? | Dec 21 12:02 |
| MinceR | because there are plenty of people pretending that cancerd is a good thing | Dec 21 12:02 |
| MinceR | even here | Dec 21 12:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: boost is one of the most common reasons why you cannot install old and new packages with each other. | Dec 21 12:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: under debian. | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | i'm pretty sure it can be done | Dec 21 12:03 |
| oiaohm | Because the bugger is 100 percent unstable abi between versions. | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | for one thing, there's static linking | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | for another thing, an application can bring its shared objects with itself | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | it can even let the user decide whether to use those or the system-wide ones | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | this has been done before | Dec 21 12:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: package makers use dynamic linking on libraries with documented unstable ABI to allow secuirty updating. | Dec 21 12:03 |
| oiaohm | And not install the libraries in split directories either. | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | you can't eat your cake and have it too | Dec 21 12:03 |
| MinceR | you'll either upgrade to new library versions or keep using the old ones | Dec 21 12:04 |
| MinceR | for every applications | Dec 21 12:04 |
| MinceR | s/ns/n/ | Dec 21 12:04 |
| oiaohm | Basically its not a systemd only problem to have under defined stable ABI MinceR | Dec 21 12:04 |
| MinceR | again the excuses | Dec 21 12:04 |
| MinceR | "look, they do it too!" | Dec 21 12:04 |
| MinceR | what unstable APIs does sysvinit use? | Dec 21 12:05 |
| oiaohm | There are about 4 libraries GDM uses that are unstable ABI. | Dec 21 12:05 |
| oiaohm | only 1 releates to systemd. | Dec 21 12:05 |
| MinceR | what unstable APIs do udev, [x]inetd, crond, atd, syslogd, firewalls, bootloaders, dns caches, webservers, container provisioners and ntpd use? | Dec 21 12:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so there are bigger problems here. | Dec 21 12:06 |
| MinceR | so yeah, gnome is crap outside of its cancerd dependencies too | Dec 21 12:06 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean that their cancerd dependencies are fine | Dec 21 12:06 |
| oiaohm | What it means is gnome goes ahead and ingores documentation of what is stable with a library. | Dec 21 12:06 |
| MinceR | i don't see many bigger problems than the attempt to kill off unix here | Dec 21 12:06 |
| MinceR | the attempt to kill the general purpose computer off is one | Dec 21 12:07 |
| MinceR | and guess what, deadrat is involved in that too! | Dec 21 12:07 |
| MinceR | it will of course most likely kill them too, but they are either too stupid to realize this or too evil to care | Dec 21 12:07 |
| oiaohm | Please remember Linux has most of the time not been Unix. | Dec 21 12:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and whose payroll are the gnome people (who also forced debian to force systemd on its users) on? | Dec 21 12:08 |
| MinceR | please remember that gnu/linux was more unix than lendows ever will be. | Dec 21 12:08 |
| oiaohm | systemd with Linux is closer to SMF under solaris. | Dec 21 12:09 |
| MinceR | only to SMF that runs in pid1 | Dec 21 12:09 |
| oiaohm | So it comes down to what you define as Unix. | Dec 21 12:09 |
| MinceR | which is, again, not following the unix philosophy | Dec 21 12:09 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy | Dec 21 12:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unix philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 21 12:10 | |
| oiaohm | Everything called unix has not followed Unix Philosphy at different times. | Dec 21 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Unix Philosphy is guide lines not absolute rules. | Dec 21 12:10 |
| MinceR | is that an excuse to abandon the whole thing and adopt the winblows philosophy instead? | Dec 21 12:10 |
| oiaohm | Really you say Windows philosophy. NT does offically have a philosophy and systemd is no where close to it. | Dec 21 12:11 |
| MinceR | then they're not following it | Dec 21 12:11 |
| MinceR | does this mean that NT should become unix and unix should become windows? | Dec 21 12:11 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT#/media/File:Windows_2000_architecture.svg Look closely at the shape of that. | Dec 21 12:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Architecture of Windows NT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/ocsdj ] | Dec 21 12:12 | |
| MinceR | does that account for the extreme dependency on the win32 subsystem? | Dec 21 12:13 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Dec 21 12:13 |
| MinceR | they introduced that pretty early, abandoning their own design | Dec 21 12:13 |
| MinceR | i can see the massive amounts of crap in kernel mode | Dec 21 12:13 |
| MinceR | and the pretense of being stuff outside the "microkernel" | Dec 21 12:13 |
| MinceR | like crApple, m$ loves to throw the word "microkernel" around | Dec 21 12:14 |
| MinceR | without having any clue about what it means | Dec 21 12:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: look at that diagram. | Dec 21 12:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a Microkernel inside NT. | Dec 21 12:14 |
| MinceR | no, there is not | Dec 21 12:14 |
| oiaohm | O yes there is. | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | they've pointed at a small portion of the code that runs in kernel mode (also known as the kernel) and proclaimed that to be the kernel | Dec 21 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Just it has a huge monolitch excitive sitting on top of it. | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | that doesn't make that the kernel | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | much less a "microkernel" | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | microkernel architecture is not about lying about what runs in kernel mode | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | it's about minimizing the amount of stuff that runs in kernel mode | Dec 21 12:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it has been done where Windows developers has run the core without the exectivie. | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | not the same thing! | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: doesn't make any difference. | Dec 21 12:15 |
| MinceR | can you run winblows applications without this massive amount of bloat in kernel mode? | Dec 21 12:16 |
| oiaohm | It is possible to move the exective in NT to userspace. | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | but nothing will work with it | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | and they have never done it | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | so again it's irrelevant | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | it's possible to implement a microkernel system | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | that doesn't make winblows a microkernel system | Dec 21 12:16 |
| oiaohm | NT first version executive is in userspace. | Dec 21 12:16 |
| MinceR | did they even sell that to anyone? | Dec 21 12:16 |
| oiaohm | Yes they did. | Dec 21 12:17 |
| MinceR | afaik they went "herp derp let's run the whole gui in kernel mode because that will make it so fast!" pretty early | Dec 21 12:17 |
| oiaohm | But it was review as been slow as hell. | Dec 21 12:17 |
| MinceR | (it didn't make it fast, only unstable) | Dec 21 12:17 |
| MinceR | funny thing | Dec 21 12:17 |
| MinceR | gnu/linux could run x in userspace, along with the rest of gui | Dec 21 12:17 |
| MinceR | and it was faster than winblows running most of it in the kernel | Dec 21 12:17 |
| oiaohm | Like it or not NT is a microkernel design with the basic Microkernel ring secury thrown away. | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | shows you the "skill" of m$ code monkeys | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | (i won't call them software engineers, as they aren't engineers) | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | no, NT is not a microkernel design | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | it's the usual m$/crApple marketroid trickery | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | trying to call an extremely bloated kernel a "microkernel" | Dec 21 12:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem here is microkernel design does not demard ring seperation. | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | if you abuse words like that, they'll lose all meaning | Dec 21 12:18 |
| MinceR | might as well claim there's no kernel at all | Dec 21 12:19 |
| MinceR | might as well call kernel space "user space" | Dec 21 12:19 |
| MinceR | might as well call all rings "ring 3" | Dec 21 12:19 |
| oiaohm | Some cpus you don't have memory management unit supporting rings. | Dec 21 12:19 |
| oiaohm | so all memory space is the same ring. | Dec 21 12:19 |
| MinceR | is that an excuse for putting the GUI in the kernel? | Dec 21 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Putting some GUI things in kernel make sense. Putting as much a Windows does not. | Dec 21 12:20 |
| oiaohm | Putting kernel mode setting in kernel space so kernel can change video card mode to display error messages if kernel panics does make sense. | Dec 21 12:21 |
| MinceR | puttig some gui things in kernel mode and calling the result a "microkernel" makes the whole idea of a microkernel pointless | Dec 21 12:21 |
| MinceR | s/ig/ing/ | Dec 21 12:21 |
| MinceR | that's not what m$ did, though | Dec 21 12:21 |
| MinceR | also, i don't see why you need a GUI to display an error message | Dec 21 12:21 |
| MinceR | TUI would do it much more reliably | Dec 21 12:21 |
| oiaohm | Putting video card memory management in kernel space so you don't have userspace instances accessing each other memory makes sense. | Dec 21 12:21 |
| oiaohm | But Windows puts lots more than that in kernel space. | Dec 21 12:22 |
| oiaohm | TUI in kernel space of the Linux kernel has been one of the largest security nightmares. | Dec 21 12:22 |
| MinceR | it makes sense, but it is not a microkernel architecture | Dec 21 12:22 |
| MinceR | >largest | Dec 21 12:23 |
| MinceR | [citation needed] | Dec 21 12:23 |
| MinceR | if you juxtapose winblows and linux, such a thing doesn't even get close to being a "security nightmare" | Dec 21 12:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: KMSCON experenetation come out of the terminal code in kernel space being repeating hosting of flaws. | Dec 21 12:23 |
| MinceR | when the other OS is full of backdoors that download and execute arbitrary code, for example to patch their DRM implementation | Dec 21 12:24 |
| MinceR | (read the winblows EULA, they've been reserving the rights to do this for quite some time) | Dec 21 12:24 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: at least having terminal handling in the kernel means you might be able to fix the system when systemd shits itself | Dec 21 12:24 |
| MinceR | having it in systemd means if systemd shits itself all you can do is reboot and hope | Dec 21 12:24 |
| MinceR | poettering loves to reboot anyway | Dec 21 12:25 |
| MinceR | even dbus was "designed" to require reboot to restart | Dec 21 12:25 |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 12:25 | |
| MinceR | none of these toys are usable in a critical environment | Dec 21 12:25 |
| MinceR | with the vista10 botnet, spyware and malware "features", linux is very far from a "security nightmare" | Dec 21 12:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: moving the console code to userspace means if it buffer overflowed or otherwise stupid you don't kernel panic the complete system. | Dec 21 12:26 |
| MinceR | remember, m$ admits they turn their spyware back on even if you disable them | Dec 21 12:26 |
| MinceR | yeah, you merely end up with a computer you can't use anymore | Dec 21 12:26 |
| MinceR | since you have no display and no input | Dec 21 12:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: vt console change can be kernel mode even with a KMScon. | Dec 21 12:27 |
| MinceR | this sort of stuff makes openbsd all the more inviting | Dec 21 12:27 |
| oiaohm | So instead of losng everything you lose 1 screen and can swiitch away. | Dec 21 12:27 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: so you can switch to another console that won't display anything and won't take any input? | Dec 21 12:27 |
| MinceR | i've heard poettering's cult wants to remove virtual console support too | Dec 21 12:27 |
| MinceR | probably because winblows can't switch consoles, therefore it must be heresy to allow it | Dec 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers not agreeing with vt removal. | Dec 21 12:28 |
| MinceR | depends on which | Dec 21 12:28 |
| MinceR | with idiots like kay sievers and m$ employees having code in the kernel... | Dec 21 12:28 |
| MinceR | poettering too, iirc | Dec 21 12:28 |
| oiaohm | virtual console and vt are different things. | Dec 21 12:28 |
| MinceR | (ironically, the m$ code hardcodes /etc/init.d/networking restart or something like that, which won't work on cancerd | Dec 21 12:29 |
| MinceR | ) | Dec 21 12:29 |
| MinceR | yeah, but without vt nothing will appear on the vc | Dec 21 12:29 |
| MinceR | might as well be playing with a rock | Dec 21 12:29 |
| oiaohm | Not exact true. fblog that prints out kernel error messages does not use vc | Dec 21 12:30 |
| MinceR | can you recover the system with fblog? | Dec 21 12:30 |
| oiaohm | fblog is to print out when you have hit kernel panic or system has not inited yet. | Dec 21 12:30 |
| MinceR | will it give you a root shell? | Dec 21 12:31 |
| oiaohm | To be correct fblog will work even without vt or means of using a graphical shell. fblog will cope with just a printer as output. | Dec 21 12:32 |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 12:32 | |
| oiaohm | To be correct shell at all. | Dec 21 12:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to use a root shell you need a virtual console of some form. Ether linux kernel virtual console or kmscon or like xterm | Dec 21 12:34 |
| MinceR | and if the kernel doesn't have it anymore and kmscon crashes, you're screwe | Dec 21 12:34 |
| oiaohm | Basically I don't see any particularly good reason for the virtual console code to be running in ring 0. | Dec 21 12:34 |
| MinceR | d | Dec 21 12:34 |
| MinceR | especially if it's integrated into systemd, because why wouldn't they miss an opportunity like this? | Dec 21 12:35 |
| MinceR | i don't see any assurance that it will be reliable at all once it's moved out of the kernel | Dec 21 12:35 |
| oiaohm | If the console code is in ring 1 2 or 3 instead of 1 a reset could be attempted. | Dec 21 12:35 |
| MinceR | especially considering that it will likely end up in systemd | Dec 21 12:35 |
| oiaohm | opps instead of 0 | Dec 21 12:35 |
| MinceR | and most likely in pid1 | Dec 21 12:35 |
| MinceR | so you can't even restart it if it crashes | Dec 21 12:35 |
| oiaohm | Really even if virtual console was still built into kernel it still could be operationally run as lower rings. | Dec 21 12:36 |
| oiaohm | But that is redesign it. | Dec 21 12:36 |
| MinceR | maybe you could even have a fallback console in ring0 that only starts if the usermode thing failed | Dec 21 12:37 |
| MinceR | maybe via magic sysrq | Dec 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Really there is no reason for the fall back console to be in ring 0 | Dec 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | only thing you need it in ring 0 is blit to screen. | Dec 21 12:37 |
| MinceR | wouldn't make much of a difference in that case | Dec 21 12:37 |
| oiaohm | Remember console is taking random crap from keyboard input and other things. | Dec 21 12:38 |
| oiaohm | Basically its facing fuss testing. | Dec 21 12:38 |
| MinceR | fuzzing | Dec 21 12:38 |
| oiaohm | console is something I see as an item that should not be in ring 0 | Dec 21 12:39 |
| oiaohm | some of the complex network code of the Linux kernel is pushed into lower rings for the same reason. | Dec 21 12:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes networking code of linux provide the precentant even if it built into the kernel that it might not be run as ring 0 | Dec 21 12:40 |
| oiaohm | VC either thrown out of kernel or made run at a sane ring level where possible. | Dec 21 12:41 |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 12:43 | |
| msb__ | MinceR: hello? | Dec 21 13:10 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 21 13:13 |
| msb__ | Arguing with oiaohm is a waste of time. He's some kind of agent, or is brainwashed. | Dec 21 13:15 |
| MinceR | it's sometimes interesting | Dec 21 13:16 |
| msb__ | Using and developing good old sysvinit Linux is interesting. Arguing about cancerd is sickening. At least to me. | Dec 21 13:17 |
| msb__ | You have said that most people want to destroy themselves. But it's not true. People have been programmed to do destructive things. | Dec 21 13:18 |
| msb__ | Like adopting systemd. | Dec 21 13:18 |
| msb__ | The world is mostly run by a loose conglomerate of ultra-wealthy psychopaths. They murder millions of people for power and profit. And they program most people to believe what they're told and obey. | Dec 21 13:19 |
| msb__ | systemd is a project of the psychopath rulers. | Dec 21 13:20 |
| msb__ | They want to destr0y Linux because Linux helps people to be free. | Dec 21 13:21 |
| msb__ | hello? | Dec 21 13:23 |
| msb__ | MinceR: Can you focus your mind on anything other than cancerd and putin? | Dec 21 13:24 |
| msb__ | Like trying to understand how the world actually works? | Dec 21 13:25 |
| MinceR | i can | Dec 21 13:27 |
| MinceR | for example, now i'm focusing on choosing new maps for my xonotic server :> | Dec 21 13:28 |
| msb__ | A computer game | Dec 21 13:36 |
| msb__ | A couple times recently my screen has gone all black and is unresponsive. I thought I had to reboot, but today I tried going to a text console and that worked. | Dec 21 13:38 |
| msb__ | I think my script for using mplayer to play from my tv card gets hung up, and if it's full-screen then I get the problem. | Dec 21 13:39 |
| msb__ | but I was able to kill it off from a text console, and get back with ctrl-alt-F7 and everything was ok. | Dec 21 13:40 |
| msb__ | Linux is very versatile. If I'd been running systemd it would probably have told me I have to buy a new computer. | Dec 21 13:41 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd disappoints me | Dec 21 13:41 |
| r_schestowitz | I used to hear it's for speed | Dec 21 13:41 |
| r_schestowitz | but it's slower for me | Dec 21 13:41 |
| MinceR | you're not the only one | Dec 21 13:42 |
| r_schestowitz | and then when I say it only "camp systemd" says it's a fallacy, it was never for speed | Dec 21 13:42 |
| r_schestowitz | then what the F* is it for? | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | redhat world domination | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | oh, and "modern"ity | Dec 21 13:42 |
| msb__ | It's purpose is to ruin Linux. | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | > systemd took ~5 minutes to boot on one of our SOCs running fedora | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | > ubuntu took ~30 seconds | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | > it was using upstart iirc | Dec 21 13:42 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd doesn't even start things in the right order here | Dec 21 13:42 |
| MinceR | gotta boot fest | Dec 21 13:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and some said online it doesn't even shut them down right | Dec 21 13:43 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 21 13:43 |
| r_schestowitz | causing deadlocks and crap | Dec 21 13:43 |
| msb__ | The ultra-wealthy psychopaths who control most of the world want to get rid of Linux, because it helps people communicate. | Dec 21 13:43 |
| r_schestowitz | 2015: and we have bugs so basic, like killing the connection before closing sockets | Dec 21 13:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and they're railroading this crap into "stable" releases | Dec 21 13:43 |
| r_schestowitz | KDE starts my applications now before it even starts plasma-shell | Dec 21 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | so I start with an empty blank desktop | Dec 21 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | both in 15:04 and 15:10 | Dec 21 13:44 |
| msb__ | It would be great to find out how maintainers of good distros like debian and suse were motivated to adopt systemd, but if you ask, all you get is ridicule. | Dec 21 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | later on.... voila... I actually feel like it's not a black screen of death because applications SLOWLY show upo | Dec 21 13:44 |
| r_schestowitz | and at the end I got wallpapers and menus, maybe a minute later | Dec 21 13:45 |
| r_schestowitz | welcomd to KDE 1 | Dec 21 13:45 |
| MinceR | afaik redhat used their control over gnome to make gnome depend on it, then had the gnome people pressure debian to adopt systemd | Dec 21 13:45 |
| r_schestowitz | or something crappy like that... at least the KDE apps weren't broken | Dec 21 13:45 |
| MinceR | the TC acted weirdly | Dec 21 13:45 |
| r_schestowitz | some upgraded to qt5, not bad.... though Dolphin is SHI***t | Dec 21 13:45 |
| r_schestowitz | More SHH***TE than it was in KDE 4.0 | Dec 21 13:46 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: try trinity | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | It's not even a file manager | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | it's like some comp. sci. 1st year project | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | with qt | Dec 21 13:46 |
| msb__ | and mc for a file manager | Dec 21 13:46 |
| MinceR | i went back to mc | Dec 21 13:46 |
| MinceR | small, fast, works better with the keyboard with pretty much any GUI | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | I think it was abandoned and nobody properly took over it | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | after they had effectively killed konqueror | Dec 21 13:46 |
| MinceR | and works well over network connections | Dec 21 13:46 |
| r_schestowitz | which was a LOT more powerful than dolphin EVER was | Dec 21 13:47 |
| msb__ | mc even works in text consoles | Dec 21 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: I would try Trinity, but need an old base | Dec 21 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | the latest bases are system-infested | Dec 21 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | *temd | Dec 21 13:47 |
| msb__ | in fact, mplayer plays videos in text consoles! uses fbdev | Dec 21 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | This is the WORST KDE experience ever | Dec 21 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | both 15.04 and 15.10 fully patched | Dec 21 13:48 |
| r_schestowitz | worse than kde in 2000 | Dec 21 13:48 |
| r_schestowitz | which I used on hardware that's only good for digital photo frames these days | Dec 21 13:48 |
| r_schestowitz | vlc sometimes takes 20 secs to start on this system | Dec 21 13:48 |
| r_schestowitz | dual core 2+ghz | Dec 21 13:49 |
| r_schestowitz | so something, somewhere seriously makes this system "experimental" quality | Dec 21 13:49 |
| msb__ | cubexyz recommends q4os, which had a maintenance release a couple weeks ago. | Dec 21 13:50 |
| msb__ | q4os.org | Dec 21 13:50 |
| msb__ | maybe trinity runs on it | Dec 21 13:50 |
| MinceR | i recommend perusing the list at http://without-systemd.org/ | Dec 21 13:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 21 13:51 | |
| msb__ | cubexyz: Which DE does q4os use? | Dec 21 13:53 |
| msb__ | It has a link to trinity. Maybe that's what it uses! | Dec 21 13:54 |
| msb__ | There's a #q4os channel, but nobody in it. | Dec 21 14:06 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 14:21 | |
| <--r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 14:27 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 14:28 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 21 14:28 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 14:28 | |
| cubexyz | q4os uses trinity or icewm probably other ones too | Dec 21 16:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity by default | Dec 21 16:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity built-in was the main reason why I tried q4os | Dec 21 16:32 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-2015.png | Dec 21 16:35 |
| <--jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 21 17:26 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 21 18:04 | |
| <--amarsh04_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 18:30 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 18:32 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 21 19:36 | |
| -->r_schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:36 | |
| <--r_schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 21 19:36 | |
| -->r_schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:36 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 21 19:36 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat) | Dec 21 19:38 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:39 | |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out) | Dec 21 19:51 | |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:52 | |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:52 | |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 21 20:38 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 21 20:41 | |
| msb__ | cubexyz: Hello? | Dec 21 20:56 |
| msb__ | The purpose of systemd: http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-20 | Dec 22 01:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-20 | Dilbert by Scott Adams | Dec 22 01:37 | |
| amarsh04 | sounds about right, msb__ | Dec 22 02:20 |
| msb__ | Of course, rapid activation of the polyphase quasitron is essential also. | Dec 22 02:29 |
| amarsh04 | well, I've just had to start xfce on the other machine, still waiting for this fix to arrive in Debian: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=356580 | Dec 22 02:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.kde.org | Bug 356580 – startplasmacompositor - kwin_wayland - "/usr/lib/startplasma" - hangs at "start_kdeinit_wrapper" | Dec 22 02:41 | |
| amarsh04 | back later... | Dec 22 02:42 |
| <--arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 22 02:56 | |
| -->arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 03:02 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6923467 | Dec 22 04:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: "The Finish company" http://news.softpedia.com/news/jolla-and-the-linux-based-sailfish-os-survive-financial-problems-497914.shtml an irony in this typo because #jolla was almost finished | Dec 22 04:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Jolla and the Linux-Based Sailfish OS Survive Financial Problems [ http://ur1.ca/oct6j ] | Dec 22 04:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Well, as much as I hope they succeed, I’m not holding my breath until I see them return a reasonable profit and ROI." | Dec 22 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | "Need a Respects Your Freedom phone. | Dec 22 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | A lot of this phone is proprietary | Dec 22 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6920995 | Dec 22 04:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Jide Remix Mini #Android Desktop PC Review: Interesting Software Let Down By Bargain-Bin Hardware http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/12/19/jide-remix-mini-android-desktop-pc-review-interesting-software-let-down-by-bargain-bin-hardware/ | Dec 22 04:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidpolice.com | Jide Remix Mini Android Desktop PC Review: Interesting Software Let Down By Bargain-Bin Hardware [ http://ur1.ca/oct6k ] | Dec 22 04:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Not the most powerful device, but I got two brand new at $30 each so it was worth it. The audio out port is nice, it beats out the Roku I have which does audio over HDMI, which means if your screen turns off so does audio. I’d say the remix mini has its’ niche, but a more powerful version would really improve its’ marketability." | Dec 22 04:07 |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921996 | Dec 22 04:08 |
| r_schestowitz | " | Dec 22 04:08 |
| r_schestowitz | he thing is, prime numbers are still generally calculated based on our base 10 number system, which comes out of our own historical 10 digits on our hands. | Dec 22 04:08 |
| r_schestowitz | Are aliens really likely to just happen to have the same number system, without the same biology? If not, they’re going to have different prime numbers than us. | Dec 22 04:08 |
| r_schestowitz | " | Dec 22 04:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/219570-what-are-prime-numbers-and-why-are-they-so-vital-to-modern-life "Modern encryption algorithms exploit the fact" | Dec 22 04:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.extremetech.com | What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? | ExtremeTech [ http://ur1.ca/oct6m ] | Dec 22 04:08 | |
| r_schestowitz | Octal is bar better, or hexadecimal | Dec 22 04:08 |
| amarsh04 | decimal has the advantage that you can instantly tell if a number is divisible by 10 or its factors of 2 and 5, or with a little more effort if a number is divisible by 3 or 11 | Dec 22 04:13 |
| amarsh04 | but all that is irrelevant to whether a number is prime or not | Dec 22 04:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > "The Role of Corporate and Government Surveillance in Shifting | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > Journalistic Information Security Practices" | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://mshelt.onl/p/shelton_2015.pdf | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > UC Irvine, but not a UCI link... | Dec 22 04:15 |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > "The donation box is full of small | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt." | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.195604.7ee1f6f7.en.html | Dec 22 04:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 04:25 | |
| r_schestowitz | > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.203527.4cce477b.en.html | Dec 22 04:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 04:25 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering? | Dec 22 04:25 |
| r_schestowitz | Been giving me nothing but pain, technically. Ruining the desktop. | Dec 22 04:25 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: There is one huge loose conspiracy of ultra-wealthy psychopaths that controls the Western world and its allies. | Dec 22 04:30 |
| msb__ | They are behind systemd. They were behind 9-11. They destroyed socialist Libya. They murdered 2 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq. They installed a Nazi govt in Ukraine. | Dec 22 04:31 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: Think! Cui bono? All of these things benefit the ultra-wealthy owners of weapons companies and banks. All of them are pushed by wealthy owners of corporate news media. | Dec 22 04:33 |
| msb__ | The govts of the US are totally bribed by the ultra-wealthy. | Dec 22 04:33 |
| msb__ | If you only think of these things separately (which is what they want you to do), then you don't see how they're related. | Dec 22 04:34 |
| msb__ | But it's really very simple. All of these tragedies for the people make huge profits for ultra-wealthy psychopaths. | Dec 22 04:35 |
| msb__ | Psychopaths readily rob, harm and kill other people to benefit themselves. | Dec 22 04:35 |
| msb__ | That | Dec 22 04:35 |
| msb__ | That's what's been going on throughout the 20th and 21st centuries! | Dec 22 04:36 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: If you think I'm wrong, make your objections. | Dec 22 04:38 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/infosecretwit/status/679231630867898368 | Dec 22 04:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@infosecretwit: https://t.co/5IeGUcQvKu CVE-2015-7755: Juniper ScreenOS Authentication Backdoor https://t.co/XUaGgqUEyL #juniper betrayed many, could hav… | Dec 22 04:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: CVE-2015-7755: Juniper ScreenOS Authentication Backdoor https://t.co/qHpUb17ou1 #juniper betrayed many, could have caused deaths | Dec 22 04:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> community.rapid7.com | Information Security: CVE-2015-7755: Juniper Sc... | Rapid7 Community | Dec 22 04:39 | |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: I mentioned systemd | Dec 22 04:40 |
| r_schestowitz | why do you talk politics? | Dec 22 04:40 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: You didn't just mention it. You said, | Dec 22 04:41 |
| msb__ | "Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering?" | Dec 22 04:41 |
| msb__ | So I _told_ you. | Dec 22 04:41 |
| msb__ | Software is not separate from everything else on Earth. | Dec 22 04:42 |
| msb__ | You will never understand the purpose of UEFI, Plasma, systemd, and the attacks on Linux, unless you stand back and look at things as a whole. | Dec 22 04:44 |
| msb__ | The ruling psychopaths want to destroy Linux so people can | Dec 22 04:44 |
| msb__ | can't use it to communicate with each other ABOUT THE PSYCHOPATHS. | Dec 22 04:45 |
| msb__ | attacks on Linus - SJW | Dec 22 04:45 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: I'm talking about what's happening in the world, which makes sense if you look at it all together. | Dec 22 04:47 |
| msb__ | You put everything that's happening in the world under the label "politics" and then refuse to think about it. | Dec 22 04:48 |
| msb__ | That prevents you from understanding the basis of anything that's going on, including systemd and EPO. | Dec 22 04:48 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: You are a very intelligent man, but like everyone else, you have been _programmed_ not to see and think about these things. You have been told to think of them as "conspiracy theories" and so your mind just slides off of them. You are operating under a post-hypnotic suggestion that makes you unable to see something that otherwise would be very obvious. Fight it! | Dec 22 04:52 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ITOMgroup/status/679236195482771456 | Dec 22 04:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ITOMgroup: RT https://t.co/W0cHnW0bMf #microsoft puff pieces pretending to be reports https://t.co/Dw9ZDNZx6Q paywall, among other bullshit | Dec 22 04:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #microsoft puff pieces pretending to be reports https://t.co/v5xXWGnvUX paywall, among other bullshit | Dec 22 04:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> time.com | Satya Nadella Is Making Microsoft Cool. No, Seriously | Dec 22 04:52 | |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 05:14 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 07:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272068458876928 | Dec 22 07:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I don't care so much about GNUisms, but I hardly know or meet any Android or Chrome OS open source developers... | Dec 22 07:08 | |
| r_schestowitz | Android is a broad world, where the overall minority which is FOSS developers is, well... a minority | Dec 22 07:08 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272501608906753 https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272853460660226 | Dec 22 07:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz If not even Red Hat is mentioned in such a list about Linux, the author is only business- and consumer-oriented | Dec 22 07:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I guess I really have to get used to totally non-technical articles which claim to be about "Linux" then :/ | Dec 22 07:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | He's technical, but a Google fan | Dec 22 07:11 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 07:14 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/679276882399911936 | Dec 22 07:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Components befit an Enterprise OS (#RHEL 7.x) but, as 4any #GNU/#Linux, there are 3rd party repos for desktop #apps: https://t.co/Yc1Arsg3Q5 | Dec 22 07:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT @fedora @openSUSE @ORCL_Linux But not for desktop... | Dec 22 07:32 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 08:00 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> "The donation box is full of small | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt." | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.195604.7ee1f6f7.en.html | Dec 22 08:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 08:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.203527.4cce477b.en.html | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering? | Dec 22 08:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll [ http://ur1.ca/octgk ] | Dec 22 08:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >> | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Been giving me nothing but pain, technically. Ruining the desktop. | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I've been postponing it by sticking with Ubuntu 14.04 because all the | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > technical info I can get says it sucks. I expect to move to Devuan, and | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I hope very much that Mint and a few other distros pick it up as a base. | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > But I am surprised by the scale of trolling. Apparently even Wikipedia | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > articles have been attacked and/or deleted by systemd trolls. | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | They call trolls those who antagonise systemd | Dec 22 08:32 |
| r_schestowitz | Like in the mono days... | Dec 22 08:32 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 08:34 | |
| cubexyz | systemd trolls? :) | Dec 22 08:39 |
| cubexyz | apt-get remove systemd-trolls | Dec 22 08:40 |
| cubexyz | as for GNU's importance... all I have to do is mention gcc | Dec 22 08:45 |
| cubexyz | ok, there's a new version of Alpine... it's on the without-systemd page | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Dear Roy, | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > you were awaiting the translation of a letter in French addressed to an MP. Here is the translation. As always the translation might not be perfect and my apologies for the poor formatting. | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Thanks again for all the good work. | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Kind Regards. | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | That's fantastic, thank you so much! | Dec 22 08:47 |
| r_schestowitz | Now that I can read it (and will publish it) I can see that Battistelli's intimidation attempts against the M(E)P only brought out the worse of him. :-) | Dec 22 08:47 |
| oiaohm | Mono had and has patent issues. | Dec 22 08:48 |
| cubexyz | Q4OS isn't on the list but it should be | Dec 22 08:48 |
| cubexyz | Alpine does look interesting... secure, lightweight, musl libc + busybox | Dec 22 08:50 |
| cubexyz | libreoffice 5.0 is built-in | Dec 22 08:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-works/ when you read stuff like this you start thinking twice about the world secure and Linux distrobutions. | Dec 22 09:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dvdhrm.wordpress.com | How VT-switching works | Ponyhof | Dec 22 09:02 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes VT console switch has a permission race condition problem. | Dec 22 09:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the permission race condition probleme exists with consolekit as well. | Dec 22 09:03 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/679300135231299584 | Dec 22 09:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Yeah, same here... :( | Dec 22 09:05 | |
| cubexyz | argh, can't remember how to properly use krename | Dec 22 09:08 |
| cubexyz | is there a glob to exclude filenames that don't start with a number? | Dec 22 09:09 |
| cubexyz | hold on... krename [0-9]* should work | Dec 22 09:11 |
| oiaohm | I was just about to say that one. | Dec 22 09:12 |
| cubexyz | brilliant :) | Dec 22 09:12 |
| cubexyz | the three digit prefix wasn't quite enough digits | Dec 22 09:14 |
| cubexyz | so I'm switching to a four digit prefix, but there was over 1k of files | Dec 22 09:15 |
| cubexyz | krename simplifies the job nicely | Dec 22 09:15 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's no way to reset the "text" console | Dec 22 09:18 |
| cubexyz | I put the word text in quotes because it is in fact rasterized graphics | Dec 22 09:18 |
| cubexyz | also I have to deal with the text console on OpenBSD which is no doubt different | Dec 22 09:19 |
| oiaohm | The OpenBSD console is different to the Linux VT. | Dec 22 09:20 |
| cubexyz | does that article say anything about corrupted VT? | Dec 22 09:20 |
| cubexyz | anyways... :-/ | Dec 22 09:21 |
| cubexyz | yup, my slackware box currently has botched up VT | Dec 22 09:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the race conditions with permissions explained botched up vt a lot. | Dec 22 09:22 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons Different BSD groupts have rebuilt there VT systems. | Dec 22 09:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons ) | Dec 22 09:22 | |
| oiaohm | Linux VT system needs a lot of rebuilding work. | Dec 22 09:23 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, so can you tell me why "/sbin/modprobe radeonfb" fixes botched up VT? | Dec 22 09:23 |
| oiaohm | Or scraping. | Dec 22 09:23 |
| cubexyz | that's really my only fix | Dec 22 09:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: drive loading triggers a permission reset by logind or consolekit. | Dec 22 09:23 |
| cubexyz | doh, and I have to watch out for x2x situations too | Dec 22 09:24 |
| cubexyz | otherwise I end up switching to VT on a different computer | Dec 22 09:24 |
| cubexyz | drive loading? | Dec 22 09:25 |
| oiaohm | drive/driver | Dec 22 09:25 |
| cubexyz | oh, device driver | Dec 22 09:25 |
| oiaohm | x2x issues are some of the reason to want wayland. | Dec 22 09:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things systemd started off attempting to fix are real issues. | Dec 22 09:26 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I had a tough time with some windows customers yesterday | Dec 22 09:26 |
| cubexyz | we all sat down and they asked me what are the alternatives to windows | Dec 22 09:26 |
| cubexyz | so I said: chromebox, Mac OS X, linux, openbsd... | Dec 22 09:27 |
| cubexyz | anyways, lots of work :) | Dec 22 09:27 |
| oiaohm | I know a lot hate systemd but list of issues that need fixing are long. | Dec 22 09:28 |
| cubexyz | we can fix stuff without using systemd though | Dec 22 09:28 |
| cubexyz | busybox, openrc, etc | Dec 22 09:28 |
| oiaohm | busybox still has not address the VT issue. | Dec 22 09:28 |
| oiaohm | openrc logind replacement at least has a chance. | Dec 22 09:29 |
| cubexyz | can linux use a true text mode? | Dec 22 09:29 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that Xenix did | Dec 22 09:30 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't a true text mode be faster? | Dec 22 09:30 |
| cubexyz | maybe just stick a terminal on the computer | Dec 22 09:31 |
| cubexyz | then we aren't forcing the video card into different modes all the time | Dec 22 09:31 |
| cubexyz | lower memory consumption too | Dec 22 09:32 |
| oiaohm | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto I guess you are thinking serial console. | Dec 22 09:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-help.ubuntu.com | SerialConsoleHowto - Community Help Wiki | Dec 22 09:33 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if you are thinking using text mode in the graphics card. You must be feeling lucky. | Dec 22 09:34 |
| cubexyz | I'm not feeling lucky actually | Dec 22 09:34 |
| oiaohm | Some modern video cards don't have text processing any more. | Dec 22 09:34 |
| oiaohm | So they only take graphical data. | Dec 22 09:34 |
| cubexyz | since when? | Dec 22 09:35 |
| oiaohm | Back into the powerpc apple time frame. | Dec 22 09:35 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: its one of the supprising when attempting to get Linux to run on apple laptops. | Dec 22 09:36 |
| oiaohm | Hey I will force Linux to use bios textmode. Opps nada. | Dec 22 09:37 |
| cubexyz | surely MSDOS an FreeDOS have a true text mode? | Dec 22 09:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: DisplayLink devices of course don't have vesa stuff. | Dec 22 09:38 |
| cubexyz | so the modern video cards may support it maybe? | Dec 22 09:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: text mode is optional. | Dec 22 09:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: just like graphical mode is optional. | Dec 22 09:39 |
| oiaohm | People forgot this. | Dec 22 09:39 |
| cubexyz | doesn't linux start in text mode then switch to graphical mode? | Dec 22 09:39 |
| cubexyz | and what if you don't bother with X at all? | Dec 22 09:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: what looks like text can by Linux can be framebuffer text rendered by the Linux kernel it self. | Dec 22 09:40 |
| oiaohm | So graphics card not having text mode does not really effect if Linux can or cannot display text. | Dec 22 09:40 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: MSDOS/Freedos depend on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INT_10H being provided. Of course this could by video card firmware or bios firmware or by videocard hardware. | Dec 22 09:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | INT 10H - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 22 09:43 | |
| cubexyz | so the video card can do it | Dec 22 09:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: video card can do it or the bios could do it. | Dec 22 09:44 |
| cubexyz | otherwise FreeDOS or MSDOS wouldn't work | Dec 22 09:44 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Freedos and MSDOS will work as long as something does it. | Dec 22 09:44 |
| oiaohm | does not have to be the graphics card. | Dec 22 09:44 |
| cubexyz | I don't follow you... it must be the video card | Dec 22 09:44 |
| cubexyz | it drives the display :) | Dec 22 09:45 |
| oiaohm | Text conversion could be done by the bios then raw image passed to video card to display. | Dec 22 09:45 |
| oiaohm | In that case the video card does not have a textmode. | Dec 22 09:45 |
| cubexyz | the video card bios? | Dec 22 09:45 |
| oiaohm | Does not have to be the video card bios. | Dec 22 09:46 |
| oiaohm | Could be the video card bios or it could be embedded in core firmware. | Dec 22 09:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: x86 too many ways to skin the cat. | Dec 22 09:46 |
| cubexyz | "there is currently no fallback that can take over once Xorg crashed" | Dec 22 09:50 |
| cubexyz | I assume a serial console would still function ^^^ | Dec 22 09:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep it would exactly why ssh does as well. | Dec 22 09:51 |
| cubexyz | serial console would have simpler logic though | Dec 22 09:51 |
| oiaohm | VT area of Unix like OS's is migrain central. | Dec 22 09:51 |
| cubexyz | doesn't need encryption | Dec 22 09:52 |
| cubexyz | I've since X run for over a year... BUT... | Dec 22 09:52 |
| cubexyz | I wasn't switching to "text console" at all | Dec 22 09:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes stuff like that is VT handling failure. | Dec 22 09:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, only thing is I don't really have a cheap video terminal for a serial console | Dec 22 09:53 |
| cubexyz | just minicom from another computer | Dec 22 09:54 |
| oiaohm | Really for Linux to be fully desktop ready the graphical system include what ever is the modern vt needs to be way more solid. | Dec 22 09:54 |
| cubexyz | it's probably better than anything else though | Dec 22 09:55 |
| cubexyz | well, maybe mainframes are better :) | Dec 22 09:56 |
| cubexyz | I can't say really | Dec 22 09:56 |
| oiaohm | solaris added KMS a lot earlier | Dec 22 09:57 |
| oiaohm | So some of the mainframe unix solutions have had better vts. | Dec 22 09:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: of course some have had worse. | Dec 22 09:59 |
| cubexyz | windows :) | Dec 22 10:00 |
| oiaohm | To be horible windows VT does works. Reason why bluescreens of death always showed up instead of Linux frozen to hell. | Dec 22 10:02 |
| cubexyz | don't think Amiga had any real text mode either now that I think about it | Dec 22 10:02 |
| cubexyz | but the BSOD means you are dead anyway | Dec 22 10:03 |
| cubexyz | you can't recover | Dec 22 10:03 |
| cubexyz | if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 10:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/student-bsod.jpg | Dec 22 10:04 |
| cubexyz | you got ctrl-alt-del and that's it | Dec 22 10:05 |
| cubexyz | with linux I _could_ probably continue by restarting X | Dec 22 10:07 |
| cubexyz | either way, you will probably lose some work... unless you are in vi | Dec 22 10:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Linux may not display the kernel panic due to X11 graphics still being in the way. | Dec 22 10:24 |
| cubexyz | I haven't seen a kernel panic in a long time | Dec 22 10:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes it all over but not having the error code means you have the nightmare of hitting the same problem again. | Dec 22 10:25 |
| cubexyz | I've seen X botch up and reset itself though | Dec 22 10:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes you don't get kernel paincs on Linux normally unless some bit of hardware is going wrong. | Dec 22 10:25 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is not knowing what bit of hardware is going south. | Dec 22 10:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: could be something critical like a harddrive. | Dec 22 10:25 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't there be something in the logs? | Dec 22 10:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends on the failure causing the kernel panic. Remember all writes like to logs and the like could be lost by the kernel panic trigger. | Dec 22 10:29 |
| cubexyz | would the kernel panic message show up on the serial terminal, assuming there was one? | Dec 22 10:30 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: as long as the fault does not come from the serial output system. | Dec 22 10:30 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem we do absolutely need to see kernel panic events. | Dec 22 10:31 |
| cubexyz | a serial problem shouldn't bring down the whole OS though | Dec 22 10:31 |
| cubexyz | cosmic rays, bad memory, bad hard drive, yes | Dec 22 10:32 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends how bad of serial problem. | Dec 22 10:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: controllers going nuts and over writing a stack of memory anything can happen. | Dec 22 10:33 |
| cubexyz | I think the superio included the IDE controller | Dec 22 10:38 |
| cubexyz | also serial, parallel, floppy | Dec 22 10:38 |
| cubexyz | so if the superio was OKed that could stop the hard drive access | Dec 22 10:39 |
| r_schestowitz | It seems that not all of the EPO is on vacation. The communique of the AC's meeting has been released. | Dec 22 10:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://www.epo.org/about-us/organisation/communiques.html | Dec 22 10:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.epo.org | EPO - Communiqués | Dec 22 10:39 | |
| cubexyz | so yes, I think you are right | Dec 22 10:39 |
| r_schestowitz | "After the Chairman's activities report, covering in particular the last meetings of the Board of the Administrative Council, the President of the European Patent Office Benoît Battistelli gave an update on developments at the Office since the previous Council meeting. The Council was particularly pleased with the remarkable results achieved by the Office in terms of production, productivity and quality. It nevertheless again | Dec 22 10:39 |
| r_schestowitz | expressed concern about the deteriorated social climate and called for initiatives and genuine efforts from all parties involved to seek compromise solutions to end a situation detrimental to the proper functioning of the Office and the public image of the whole Organisation. The Council hoped that the independent, external social study to be launched at the beginning of 2016 would be a significant contribution to improvement." | Dec 22 10:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450769841155#c2916370631058633135 | Dec 22 10:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/octmx ] | Dec 22 10:39 | |
| amarsh04 | if one party is the cause of problems, compromise is at least partially giving into the party at fault | Dec 22 10:43 |
| -->jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 10:46 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg | Dec 22 11:01 |
| XRevan86 | - What are you doing, punks? | Dec 22 11:05 |
| XRevan86 | - There are candy. Just like Dad. | Dec 22 11:05 |
| cubexyz | :) | Dec 22 11:05 |
| msb__ | What is the "VT" that oiaohm is claiming is broken in Linux? | Dec 22 11:52 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 11:54 |
| msb__ | They work fine for me. I can even watch videos in them! mplayer uses fbdev! | Dec 22 11:58 |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 12:32 | |
| <--arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 22 12:38 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6925400 | Dec 22 13:27 |
| r_schestowitz | cubexyz: ^ | Dec 22 13:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Get 'em while they're young http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg sticking that long thing in their mouths to form habits | Dec 22 13:27 | |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: virtual terminal | Dec 22 13:31 |
| r_schestowitz | like those terminals that used to be physical back in the days an had very crude i/o | Dec 22 13:31 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | [15:04] <cubexyz> if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | How true | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | not sitting on top of the shell, so no way to diagonise or to bring it back up | Dec 22 13:33 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? Or are there other virtual terminals? | Dec 22 13:34 |
| r_schestowitz | there are terminal emulators | Dec 22 13:38 |
| r_schestowitz | lots of them | Dec 22 13:38 |
| <--r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 13:39 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 13:41 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 13:42 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 13:45 | |
| MinceR | http://40.media.tumblr.com/e4ffbe02de77b196c7b68ec251fcb4f3/tumblr_inline_nzpzm4zIqe1t63ajm_1280.jpg | Dec 22 13:58 |
| MinceR | https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10778642 | Dec 22 14:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ ) | Dec 22 14:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-news.ycombinator.com | Santa Claus Confirms NSA Attack on Naughty or Nice Database | Hacker News [ http://ur1.ca/octw1 ] | Dec 22 14:07 | |
| <--tessier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 22 14:24 | |
| -->tessier (~treed@wsip-70-166-32-111.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 14:25 | |
| <--tessier has quit (Changing host) | Dec 22 14:25 | |
| -->tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 14:25 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: seen it earlier | Dec 22 14:25 |
| schestowitz | funny concept | Dec 22 14:25 |
| schestowitz | >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/brunei-cancels-christmas-sultan-warns-those-celebrating-could-face-up-to-five-years-in-jail-a6782561.html | Dec 22 14:28 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.independent.co.uk | Brunei cancels Christmas: Sultan warns those celebrating could face up to five years in jail | Asia | News | The Independent | Dec 22 14:28 | |
| schestowitz | >>> >> | Dec 22 14:28 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> A better link about the same. | Dec 22 14:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 14:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > Thanks. | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > See | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millionaire-businessman-cleared-raping-teenager-7018414 | Dec 22 14:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.mirror.co.uk | Millionaire businessman cleared of raping teenager after he told court he may have accidentally penetrated her - Mirror Online | Dec 22 14:29 | |
| schestowitz | > Hmm. That judge needs a government investigation, with special | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | > attention to his recent cases. I've thought for several minutes and | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | > can't think of a lamer excuse. | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | yes, embarrassment to UK justice.... needs to be fixed ASAP. | Dec 22 14:29 |
| schestowitz | If it was in Saudi Barbaria I'd imagine she'd be sued | Dec 22 14:30 |
| schestowitz | for defaming him | Dec 22 14:30 |
| schestowitz | and beheaded in a public square | Dec 22 14:30 |
| schestowitz | For having been 'accidentally' raped | Dec 22 14:30 |
| -->arossdotme (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 14:56 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 16:02 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 16:03 | |
| -->arossdotme-planb (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 16:10 | |
| <--arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 22 16:13 | |
| <--arossdotme-planb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 22 16:18 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 16:29 | |
| schestowitz | I think we have some good stories coming up in techrights, regarding the eu patents scandal: | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | I have begun working on a story which I believe can be broken down as follows: | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | 1. EPO fires SUEPO person, without even notifying the person, and without telling the public | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | 2. EPO took advantage of illness in the family | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | 3. EPO shows hypocrisy on cancer | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | The story would name no names, although people involved would likely know who's who, just not the general public. Is this narration OK? | Dec 22 17:02 |
| schestowitz | ewwww | Dec 22 17:13 |
| schestowitz | Swapil posted photo: "Selfie with Cloud Foundry CEO - Sam Ramji" | Dec 22 17:13 |
| schestowitz | Ramjo | Dec 22 17:13 |
| schestowitz | Might explains his pro-MS BS as of late | Dec 22 17:14 |
| <--jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 22 17:40 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 18:51 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 18:52 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: VT are broken on LInux when it comes to applied permissions. Race condition can work perfectly 90 percent of time. The issue is when you have user A on one VT and user B on another VT and you are switching between them. If the race condition triggers the permission change does not happen. | Dec 22 19:02 |
| oiaohm | msb__: So yes the arguement that o I can use Ctrl-Alt-Fn and it appears to work is in fact completely disregarding the fact the core design in the Linux kernel for handling VT is flawed. | Dec 22 19:04 |
| msb__ | What is the effect of this flaw? | Dec 22 19:10 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what has not been set and what the user is. User can find they have switched cannot mount drives when they should be able and so on. All the stuff logind and consolekit sets basically can have skipped happening. | Dec 22 19:13 |
| MinceR | so, once again the logind/polkit magic fails | Dec 22 19:19 |
| MinceR | but it was worth giving everything up for | Dec 22 19:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: consolekit and consolekit2 both fail the same way as well. | Dec 22 19:19 |
| MinceR | at least those don't hijack your system | Dec 22 19:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the systemd solution of drop VT completely I don't agree with. If we want to keep it the VT API that has race condition has to be replaced by some local IPC that works correctly. | Dec 22 19:20 |
| MinceR | ooh, ipc | Dec 22 19:22 |
| MinceR | let me guess | Dec 22 19:22 |
| MinceR | kdbus! | Dec 22 19:22 |
| oiaohm | The other option is the kernel VT remembers the permission maps itself. So logind/consolekit uploads the permission map to kernel then the kernel takes care of the switching by itself. | Dec 22 19:23 |
| oiaohm | 1 of the race conditions is a device in use by 1 user that needs to change permissions user 2 that cannot until the user1 release it. | Dec 22 19:24 |
| oiaohm | Some cases when you do a VT switch it should be user termination. | Dec 22 19:25 |
| MinceR | user error. replace user and press any key to continue. | Dec 22 19:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: this is not something to joke with. One of the possible faults if someone attempts to intentionally trigger the race. Is scary enough you are logging in but the user name and password you just type in go to a display manager or getty and to a different user on the system. | Dec 22 19:33 |
| MinceR | sadly, gnu/linux development is increasingly driven by politics | Dec 22 19:35 |
| MinceR | the question they ask is not "what would be the best solution?" but "how could i push my 'technology' some more?" | Dec 22 19:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the Linux kernel has always been driven by politics. Its not like the BSD world with the techical board managing it. | Dec 22 19:49 |
| MinceR | i wasn't always aware of it | Dec 22 19:49 |
| oiaohm | https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html BSD's you find they have boards of directors. | Dec 22 19:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html ) | Dec 22 19:51 | |
| oiaohm | Who sit to exactly debate over the best possible solution. | Dec 22 19:52 |
| MinceR | debian has a Technical Committee... and they capitulated to ratcrap | Dec 22 19:52 |
| oiaohm | Please note Debian technical committee is not like a freebsd development board. Freebsd development board is free to create new projects from scratch where required. Technical committee in debian is meant to choose what is techicially best out of existing solutions. | Dec 22 19:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: on techical merit unfortantly systemd at this stage beats openrc and sysvinit. Debian Technical Committee was not that they were happy either. Debian Technical committee has left the possiblity of a revote if a better solution appear or if openrc gets moe completed. | Dec 22 19:56 |
| MinceR | they may be meant for that, but they're obviously incapable of doing so | Dec 22 19:56 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't | Dec 22 19:56 |
| MinceR | maybe someone who was brainwashed by deadrat believes it to be, but that does not make it so | Dec 22 19:56 |
| MinceR | on technical merit, cancerd is the worst possible design and the worst possible implementation | Dec 22 19:57 |
| oiaohm | Techical merit includes feature and function comparance. | Dec 22 19:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit does not mean features that were made up to check boxes | Dec 22 19:57 |
| oiaohm | systemd has horible implmentation I will give you that. MinceR | Dec 22 19:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit is about features that matter. | Dec 22 19:57 |
| MinceR | also, an init system does not need to do unrelated functionality | Dec 22 19:58 |
| MinceR | and shouldn't do so | Dec 22 19:58 |
| MinceR | as such, unrelated functionality is not a point in favor of cancerd, it's against it | Dec 22 19:58 |
| oiaohm | Features that matter include providing a possible solution to VT switching failures. | Dec 22 19:58 |
| MinceR | they don't provide a solution to that, as you've said above | Dec 22 19:58 |
| oiaohm | systemd logind does. | Dec 22 19:58 |
| oiaohm | Horible by remove vt from kernel. | Dec 22 19:58 |
| MinceR | just like they don't provide a solution to their polkit issues, because their alleged solution requires revoke | Dec 22 19:58 |
| MinceR | which is not implemented | Dec 22 19:59 |
| oiaohm | Sorry it is implemented. | Dec 22 19:59 |
| MinceR | since when? | Dec 22 19:59 |
| oiaohm | The seat system for operating without in kernel Vt was implemented in systemd-logind in the year 2010 | Dec 22 19:59 |
| oiaohm | So yes there is a list of techical merits. | Dec 22 20:00 |
| oiaohm | So the other options do need to lift their game. | Dec 22 20:00 |
| MinceR | that's not an answer to the question | Dec 22 20:00 |
| MinceR | and yes, poettering came up with a ludicrous table | Dec 22 20:00 |
| MinceR | where exactly do they need to "lift their game"? to gain more leverage over gnome/debian people? | Dec 22 20:01 |
| oiaohm | openrc has issues where it does not even built dependablity into a package. That is kinda a major game breaker. | Dec 22 20:02 |
| MinceR | ooh, tell me more about how cancerd is dependable | Dec 22 20:03 |
| oiaohm | On techical merit lot of the debian guys were leaning to openrc. | Dec 22 20:03 |
| MinceR | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/316 | Dec 22 20:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | After resuming from standby, systemd is stuck trying to unmount a disk · Issue #316 · systemd/systemd · GitHub | Dec 22 20:03 | |
| oiaohm | Sad as it sound systemd does build dependablty from source. | Dec 22 20:03 |
| MinceR | dependability, according to you | Dec 22 20:03 |
| MinceR | on a software package that was declared stable 4 years before | Dec 22 20:04 |
| MinceR | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589 | Dec 22 20:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.freedesktop.org | Bug 74589 – systemd segfaults if no cgroups are available [ http://ur1.ca/j3zxv ] | Dec 22 20:04 | |
| MinceR | checking pointers? not cancerd's job. | Dec 22 20:04 |
| MinceR | also, testing is for losers. | Dec 22 20:04 |
| cubexyz | systemd is horrible | Dec 22 20:05 |
| cubexyz | at least consider other options | Dec 22 20:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: most of what you are describing is quality control issues. | Dec 22 20:05 |
| cubexyz | you think people will run systemd on embedded? | Dec 22 20:06 |
| MinceR | no, it's more like competence issues | Dec 22 20:06 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: people have attempted to, with the disastrous results you'd expect | Dec 22 20:06 |
| MinceR | here's systemd failing at being a service manager: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1170765 | Dec 22 20:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 ) | Dec 22 20:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugzilla.redhat.com | Bug 1170765 – systemd: all processes in scopes (including user sessions) SIGKILLed immediately on shutdown with no opportunity to shut down cleanly [ http://ur1.ca/ocua5 ] | Dec 22 20:07 | |
| MinceR | obviously a service manager that can't start or stop processes reliably has great technical merit, doesn't it? | Dec 22 20:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also you are tunnelled visioned. | Dec 22 20:07 |
| MinceR | uh huh | Dec 22 20:07 |
| MinceR | expecting an init system to work is "tunnel vision" | Dec 22 20:07 |
| MinceR | you heard it here first, folks! | Dec 22 20:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 automount with sysvinit also does a stack of stupid things including at times getting suck attempting to unmount stuff. | Dec 22 20:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 ) | Dec 22 20:08 | |
| MinceR | automount is not sysvinit | Dec 22 20:08 |
| oiaohm | So you don't use fstab with sysvinit right? | Dec 22 20:08 |
| MinceR | and sysvinit is not automount | Dec 22 20:08 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: guess what processes fstab | Dec 22 20:09 |
| MinceR | just because i use something with sysvinit does not turn that into a part of sysvinit | Dec 22 20:09 |
| MinceR | something the retards at redcrap should have learned | Dec 22 20:09 |
| MinceR | you can in fact run more than one piece of software on a computer! | Dec 22 20:09 |
| MinceR | pid1 does not have to do everything. | Dec 22 20:10 |
| MinceR | https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=104314 | Dec 22 20:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.raspberrypi.org | Raspberry Pi • View topic - Systemd Jessie errors [ http://ur1.ca/ocuaa ] | Dec 22 20:11 | |
| MinceR | https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html | Dec 22 20:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html ) | Dec 22 20:12 | |
| MinceR | apparently "technical merit" means "the software can not do what is allegedly its job" | Dec 22 20:12 |
| MinceR | with people "thinking" like that on the TC, it's no wonder debian is dead | Dec 22 20:13 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: "But are these problems specific to Raspbian? Because Debian 8 w/systemd on RPi2 seems to have no such problems and this was even when it was still testing and not stable" from that link | Dec 22 20:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are issues with systemd in low memory envornments. | Dec 22 20:14 |
| MinceR | ah yes, the usual "argument" | Dec 22 20:15 |
| MinceR | "i've seen systemd not fuck up totally once, so it's perfect" | Dec 22 20:15 |
| oiaohm | That Is not what I said. | Dec 22 20:15 |
| MinceR | people like that should not be in charge of OSes that claim to have "stable" releases | Dec 22 20:15 |
| MinceR | "stable" does not mean "somebody saw it work once" | Dec 22 20:15 |
| cubexyz | just use the init you want | Dec 22 20:16 |
| oiaohm | This is your problem MinceR you keep on putting words in people month they have not said. | Dec 22 20:16 |
| MinceR | that's precisely the choice ratcrap is trying to take away | Dec 22 20:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, my problem is legions of fascists trying to fuck up my life even more | Dec 22 20:16 |
| MinceR | as if it wasn't bad enough already | Dec 22 20:16 |
| MinceR | millions of humans working hard at producing the perfect dystopia | Dec 22 20:17 |
| oiaohm | The reality is all the RPi2 do in fact run jessie without problem using systemd. The RPi1b with only 512 megs can have issues and the RPi1a with only 256 megs of memory it does not work right. | Dec 22 20:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically it information showing that systemd is a bit of a memory hog. | Dec 22 20:17 |
| cubexyz | ok, good point | Dec 22 20:17 |
| cubexyz | thanks oiaohm :) | Dec 22 20:18 |
| MinceR | a memory hog, a cpu hog, and an all-around train wreck | Dec 22 20:18 |
| MinceR | http://blind.guru/daemon-cpu.html | Dec 22 20:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blind.guru | I am sorry, but this looks insane | Dec 22 20:18 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: explain to me why an "init system" needs 512MB of RAM. | Dec 22 20:18 |
| MinceR | is it perhaps built on top of a web browser, like atom? | Dec 22 20:19 |
| cubexyz | btw, people have been using sysvinit since 1983 | Dec 22 20:19 |
| MinceR | or perhaps m$ sql? | Dec 22 20:19 |
| cubexyz | I should make a page of inits | Dec 22 20:20 |
| cubexyz | btw, when was fstab started? | Dec 22 20:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I can explain some of it by the ways you break sysvinit from starting on on 256meg RPi1a | Dec 22 20:22 |
| MinceR | i also wonder what's so difficult to understand about "universal" | Dec 22 20:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the easyest way is install a heavy logging server. | Dec 22 20:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no amount of explanation will do away with the fact that it in fact works on RPi1a | Dec 22 20:23 |
| cubexyz | ok, 4.1c BSD | Dec 22 20:23 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sysvinit doesn't do logging, as it shouldn't | Dec 22 20:23 |
| MinceR | also, journald also doesn't belong in a "stable" OS | Dec 22 20:23 |
| MinceR | it's a pretty good demonstration of how not to do logging, though | Dec 22 20:23 |
| oiaohm | journald is a very complete information logging system. So its heavy logging and does cost memory. | Dec 22 20:24 |
| MinceR | did you read that off the official deadrat brochure? | Dec 22 20:24 |
| MinceR | it's binary, it's fragile, it melds coredumps into your logs, it doesn't even support log rotation | Dec 22 20:24 |
| cubexyz | btw original sys3 init doesn't use fstab | Dec 22 20:24 |
| MinceR | oh, and it comes with a webserver built in | Dec 22 20:25 |
| MinceR | because why the fuck wouldn't you want a webserver built into your logging daemon | Dec 22 20:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note even using journld with remote syslog as it does support its heavy. Remote syslog means it does not have to use binary logging files. | Dec 22 20:25 |
| MinceR | yeah, it's a pointless use case | Dec 22 20:26 |
| MinceR | it's only there as an excuse for forcing cancerd users to use journald for logging | Dec 22 20:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the binnary logs bad handling makes it worse. | Dec 22 20:26 |
| MinceR | probably so that NSA backdoors can remove the log entries they don't want you to see | Dec 22 20:26 |
| MinceR | before it can reach a reasonable log daemon | Dec 22 20:26 |
| oiaohm | Note I said I could explain breaking in 256 with good stuff. | Dec 22 20:26 |
| cubexyz | can't you just do the mounting stuff manually? | Dec 22 20:26 |
| cubexyz | what is the big deal? | Dec 22 20:26 |
| oiaohm | Breaking at 512 is really shows implementation issues MinceR | Dec 22 20:26 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: manually is not "modern" enough | Dec 22 20:27 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also, it leaves the user too much control | Dec 22 20:27 |
| MinceR | we can't have that | Dec 22 20:27 |
| MinceR | poettering must be put in charge of deciding what gets mounted when | Dec 22 20:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even using binary logging solutions that are not journd that are as complete as journald in inform record will work on 512 pi | Dec 22 20:28 |
| MinceR | just like a crApple product | Dec 22 20:28 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: binary logging is not a "solution", it's a problem. | Dec 22 20:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so I 100 percent agree journald back end need a major rework. | Dec 22 20:28 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't need a rework | Dec 22 20:28 |
| MinceR | it needs to be killed with fire. | Dec 22 20:28 |
| oiaohm | Or killed in fire. | Dec 22 20:28 |
| cubexyz | I can run Unix in 256k :) | Dec 22 20:29 |
| MinceR | and the people who pushed it into the places it is, need to be removed from any positions of power | Dec 22 20:29 |
| MinceR | redrat does not deserve a second chance. | Dec 22 20:29 |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 22 20:30 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem here I come from a blender3d back ground. Blenders format file format is binary. Using blenders DNA fileformat would be more memory effective and more log rotation comadible than what journald uses. | Dec 22 20:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so being binary here is not the only issue. | Dec 22 20:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: being crappy design is truly a issue. | Dec 22 20:31 |
| MinceR | it would also be more failure prone | Dec 22 20:31 |
| MinceR | and it would also be more easily corrupted | Dec 22 20:31 |
| MinceR | and forcing coredumps into the "log" fills HDDs quickly, as many users have already found out | Dec 22 20:32 |
| oiaohm | Blender DNA format is more resistant to faults. | Dec 22 20:32 |
| oiaohm | Than using text | Dec 22 20:32 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 22 20:32 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of binary formats that are more resistant than text. | Dec 22 20:32 |
| oiaohm | Why checksum see broken part skip over. | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 22 20:33 |
| oiaohm | instead of with text see value 0 that is end of file. | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | you do realize you can skip over broken parts in text files, right? | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | what. | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | unix is not ms/dos | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | s,/,-, | Dec 22 20:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the thing is you know what is broken if the format has checksumed itself. | Dec 22 20:33 |
| MinceR | any format can be checksummed | Dec 22 20:34 |
| MinceR | there's par2, for example | Dec 22 20:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I know any format can be checksumed. Issue here is default logging to textfiles normally do not bother. | Dec 22 20:35 |
| MinceR | still better than turning all logs into line noise | Dec 22 20:35 |
| MinceR | instead of a format you can easily see corruption in | Dec 22 20:36 |
| oiaohm | Being binary as other logging solution using binary show that if it correctly done you don't end up with mangled logs. | Dec 22 20:37 |
| oiaohm | journald binary logs eat logs is really unforgivable implementation fault. | Dec 22 20:37 |
| MinceR | pity deadrat is not in the "doing things correctly" business, then | Dec 22 20:37 |
| MinceR | and neither is debian, anymore | Dec 22 20:38 |
| oiaohm | Binary logs can have proper log rotation systems. | Dec 22 20:38 |
| MinceR | sure | Dec 22 20:38 |
| MinceR | journald doesn't have one, though | Dec 22 20:39 |
| oiaohm | So journald not having proper log rotation systems is another fault. | Dec 22 20:39 |
| oiaohm | Lack of proper log roation means if stuff goes wrong it worse. | Dec 22 20:39 |
| MinceR | it would be no problem if journald was an option | Dec 22 20:39 |
| MinceR | but it's forced on users | Dec 22 20:39 |
| oiaohm | Also lack of proper log rotation increase memory usage. | Dec 22 20:39 |
| oiaohm | Basically binary logging done properly should not upset users much. | Dec 22 20:40 |
| oiaohm | In fact should be more dependable than plain text logging without checksums. | Dec 22 20:41 |
| MinceR | plain text logging with checksums is even more dependable | Dec 22 20:41 |
| cubexyz | I grep my plain text logs all the time | Dec 22 20:41 |
| MinceR | sure, it's not as shiny and it's not as much like windows, but it actually works | Dec 22 20:42 |
| MinceR | people should really learn not to be distracted and enthralled by shiny crap | Dec 22 20:42 |
| oiaohm | plain text logging with checksums size wise is larger. Compared to properly implemented binary logging no extra dependablity. | Dec 22 20:42 |
| MinceR | it's sad people like that consider themselves intelligent | Dec 22 20:42 |
| MinceR | not if it doesn't include coredumps | Dec 22 20:43 |
| oiaohm | Main reason for text logging is easy direct text tool usage. | Dec 22 20:43 |
| MinceR | there are many good reasons for text logging | Dec 22 20:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: and there are good reasons for properly constructed binary logging. | Dec 22 20:45 |
| oiaohm | There is no good excuse for improperly constructed binary or text logging. | Dec 22 20:45 |
| MinceR | the main reason for binary logging is the principle of "dave cutler hates unix" | Dec 22 20:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging predates NT | Dec 22 20:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging was first done on commerical Unix systems. | Dec 22 20:46 |
| MinceR | you should have told dave cutler about that | Dec 22 20:46 |
| MinceR | maybe we wouldn't have journald now if you had | Dec 22 20:47 |
| oiaohm | No dave cutler own write up on NT history references unix binary logging for Windows logging design. | Dec 22 20:47 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging is a Unix thing unfortantly. | Dec 22 20:47 |
| MinceR | "Store data in flat text files." | Dec 22 20:48 |
| MinceR | yup, says right there to log in binary format | Dec 22 20:48 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Dec 22 20:48 |
| cubexyz | apache doesn't | Dec 22 20:48 |
| MinceR | is this yet another case of "but sun already fucked up like this!"? | Dec 22 20:48 |
| MinceR | it's like fidesz writing their "constitution" | Dec 22 20:49 |
| MinceR | collecting the worst mistakes made by others | Dec 22 20:49 |
| cubexyz | XFree86 was text logging | Dec 22 20:49 |
| MinceR | and then blaming those others for the mistake | Dec 22 20:49 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 22 20:49 |
| cubexyz | mysqld is text logging | Dec 22 20:50 |
| cubexyz | messages? text | Dec 22 20:50 |
| cubexyz | secure? text | Dec 22 20:50 |
| cubexyz | prelink.log is text | Dec 22 20:51 |
| cubexyz | yum.log is text | Dec 22 20:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: particular mail servers you find binary logging. | Dec 22 20:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: these are unix world evil pre NT. | Dec 22 20:51 |
| MinceR | every program attempts to expand until it can send mail, except microsoft exchange | Dec 22 20:52 |
| cubexyz | pretty sure sendmail logs in text, although there could be some control chars in there | Dec 22 20:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, my /var/log directory is full of text files | Dec 22 20:52 |
| MinceR | but oiaohm dug up one or two examples which should prove that binary logging is totally the unix thing | Dec 22 20:52 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 22 20:53 |
| cubexyz | ok, just going by what my server has | Dec 22 20:53 |
| cubexyz | btw I wrote a logger for a linux game | Dec 22 20:54 |
| cubexyz | and it does use text :) | Dec 22 20:54 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921996 | Dec 22 20:54 |
| schestowitz | "Is there any number that makes sense universally to base a number system on?" | Dec 22 20:54 |
| oiaohm | http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/mysqlbinlog.html Some services have binary logging built in. | Dec 22 20:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/219570-what-are-prime-numbers-and-why-are-they-so-vital-to-modern-life "Modern encryption algorithms exploit the fact" | Dec 22 20:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.extremetech.com | What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? | ExtremeTech [ http://ur1.ca/oct6m ] | Dec 22 20:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dev.mysql.com | MySQL :: MySQL 5.7 Reference Manual :: 4.6.7 mysqlbinlog — Utility for Processing Binary Log Files [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc1 ] | Dec 22 20:55 | |
| MinceR | >some | Dec 22 20:55 |
| cubexyz | mysqld.log is text | Dec 22 20:55 |
| cubexyz | at least mine is | Dec 22 20:55 |
| cubexyz | wtmp is binary | Dec 22 20:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the files text files you are read most likely were written by syslog including that mysqld.log. The implementation of syslog sets if those are text or not. | Dec 22 20:56 |
| cubexyz | I don't remember the format for that | Dec 22 20:56 |
| cubexyz | ok, well I'm glad mine is set for text mode | Dec 22 20:57 |
| cubexyz | I'll look at syslogd.conf | Dec 22 20:58 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 20:58 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/v8-stable/tutorials/database.html The things you can do to syslog information is quite massive. | Dec 22 20:58 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 20:58 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rsyslog.com | Writing syslog messages to MySQL, PostgreSQL or any other supported Database — rsyslog 8.14.0 documentation [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc9 ] | Dec 22 20:58 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 22 20:58 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 20:58 | |
| oiaohm | So yes rsyslog to database can equal no more text files in the /var/log directory. | Dec 22 20:59 |
| MinceR | and yet i still don't have to do it with rsyslog | Dec 22 20:59 |
| cubexyz | even Unix v7m logging was mainly text | Dec 22 21:00 |
| cubexyz | it's a Unix thing | Dec 22 21:00 |
| MinceR | compare "i can do it my way" to "i can only do it poettering's way" | Dec 22 21:00 |
| MinceR | two different principles, two different OSes | Dec 22 21:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/unix-philosophy.txt | Dec 22 21:00 |
| cubexyz | "Store data in flat text files" | Dec 22 21:01 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: option of text logging is a Unix thing. So is the option to redirect syslog into what ever you wish to process it including binary. | Dec 22 21:01 |
| MinceR | yup | Dec 22 21:01 |
| MinceR | should be trivial to understand | Dec 22 21:01 |
| MinceR | and yet... | Dec 22 21:01 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the early syslogs include binary options. | Dec 22 21:03 |
| oiaohm | Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 22 21:04 |
| cubexyz | some data is probably better in binary format, but logging? | Dec 22 21:04 |
| cubexyz | e.g. a graphical file would be better in binary | Dec 22 21:04 |
| cubexyz | and of course video :) | Dec 22 21:04 |
| cubexyz | human readable log files are better | Dec 22 21:05 |
| oiaohm | There is a issue that makes journald explode and it not binary logging. | Dec 22 21:05 |
| cubexyz | you can compress the text file if you want to save space | Dec 22 21:05 |
| cubexyz | I don't see any problem | Dec 22 21:05 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump | Dec 22 21:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump ) | Dec 22 21:06 | |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log or coredumps even using normal old syslogs is hazard. | Dec 22 21:06 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Dec 22 21:06 |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log all coredumps even using normal old syslog is hazard | Dec 22 21:07 |
| MinceR | 030400 < oiaohm> Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 22 21:07 |
| MinceR | why do we have to have that bloated train wreck in the pipe? | Dec 22 21:07 |
| MinceR | especially one with unreadable code full of bugs? | Dec 22 21:08 |
| MinceR | do we have to give the NSA a way to mangle our logs? | Dec 22 21:08 |
| cubexyz | in the olden days it would be teletypewriter output | Dec 22 21:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: most text logging in rotation has compression on rotated logs. | Dec 22 21:08 |
| cubexyz | no way the NSA could corrupt that :) | Dec 22 21:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes space is why. | Dec 22 21:08 |
| cubexyz | very safe | Dec 22 21:09 |
| cubexyz | sure | Dec 22 21:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you never deployed rsyslog client wrapper on sysvinit. | Dec 22 21:09 |
| MinceR | i guess poettering has a 10TB RAID array just for log storage, so nobody should ever need to rotate logs anymore | Dec 22 21:10 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: did i ever need it? | Dec 22 21:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: journald wrapper makes sense to those who have had to individually add the wrappers in sysvinit. The wrappers are to prevent X application say to syslog that they are Y application so making your log information false. | Dec 22 21:11 |
| MinceR | yeah, because falsifying my logs is journald's job! | Dec 22 21:12 |
| oiaohm | To be correct the one part of journald that is correct is if you set it as a wrapper to a syslog. | Dec 22 21:12 |
| oiaohm | So they managed to get 1 thing right. | Dec 22 21:13 |
| oiaohm | And fairly much every other operational mode wrong. | Dec 22 21:13 |
| oiaohm | Including the default. | Dec 22 21:13 |
| MinceR | does that 1 thing need 512MB of RAM and an entire CPU core? | Dec 22 21:15 |
| oiaohm | Ram usage drops of journald drops a lot when you tell it not to binary log and just forwards to syslog solution of some form. | Dec 22 21:16 |
| oiaohm | Also it cpu consume drops massively. | Dec 22 21:16 |
| oiaohm | 90 percent of journald problem is it binary logging engine is complete crap. | Dec 22 21:16 |
| MinceR | crap design, crap implementation, forced on users | Dec 22 21:17 |
| MinceR | perfect combination | Dec 22 21:17 |
| oiaohm | The wrapper is good design for prevent false information entering log files. | Dec 22 21:18 |
| oiaohm | Just because you have 1 bit of good design does not mean you cannot screw up everything else. | Dec 22 21:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so not everything about systemd is bad design. | Dec 22 21:19 |
| MinceR | do you search the landfill for diamonds? | Dec 22 21:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: some automated recycling plants at landfill do search for diamonds jems and metals. | Dec 22 21:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you want to see systemd replaced you have understand what what they got right just as much as what they got wrong. | Dec 22 21:24 |
| MinceR | i don't want to see systemd replaced | Dec 22 21:26 |
| MinceR | but i also don't want to see anything replaced _by_ systemd | Dec 22 21:27 |
| MinceR | nice try, pretending that systemd came first | Dec 22 21:27 |
| MinceR | it's getting a bit old though | Dec 22 21:27 |
| oiaohm | The reality is systemd is already deployed and out there. | Dec 22 21:27 |
| MinceR | the reality is that unix and gnu/linux came first | Dec 22 21:27 |
| MinceR | and systemd tried to corrupt and destroy them later | Dec 22 21:27 |
| oiaohm | You will have resistance from those who see particular features useful and don't want to lose those features. | Dec 22 21:28 |
| MinceR | they can go and fuck themselves | Dec 22 21:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't complain when that happens to you then. | Dec 22 21:29 |
| oiaohm | The reality is development is based around what people need. | Dec 22 21:29 |
| MinceR | while they keep claiming all distros should be the same and they already had fedora, mageia, opensuse, arch, coreos, RHELl, SLES and ubuntu, they had to go and fuck up debian too | Dec 22 21:29 |
| MinceR | the reality is that people don't need cancerd | Dec 22 21:29 |
| oiaohm | Of course attempting to address those needs something results in crap being | Dec 22 21:29 |
| MinceR | and that development is based around whose microsoftian tricks succeed | Dec 22 21:30 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 22 21:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: as normally you disregard what others need. | Dec 22 21:30 |
| MinceR | oh, and they already had winblows, the design of which they admire so much | Dec 22 21:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, it's you and poettering who do that. | Dec 22 21:30 |
| cubexyz | with FOSS you can adapt things to your liking | Dec 22 21:30 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: until the fascists lock it down | Dec 22 21:30 |
| MinceR | then again, that won't be free anymore | Dec 22 21:31 |
| oiaohm | Windows eventlog does not pervent log forgoery either MinceR | Dec 22 21:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: duh | Dec 22 21:31 |
| MinceR | they can piss off, buy winblows and use it | Dec 22 21:31 |
| oiaohm | most of the needs driving systemd have nothing todo with Windows. | Dec 22 21:31 |
| MinceR | and enjoy how "modern" it is | Dec 22 21:31 |
| oiaohm | So if they go to windows they don't have what they need. | Dec 22 21:31 |
| MinceR | people loving crap design has nothing to do with winblows? | Dec 22 21:31 |
| MinceR | actually, they will | Dec 22 21:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all you could to is tell them to go use solaris. | Dec 22 21:31 |
| oiaohm | Not windows. | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have unrelated bloated crap smashed together in one process | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have binary logging | Dec 22 21:32 |
| oiaohm | Because windows does not have the required features. | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have secret APIs and lock-in | Dec 22 21:32 |
| oiaohm | binary logging is not the required feature. | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have insecure unreliable unreadable crap code | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have tons of NSA backdoors | Dec 22 21:32 |
| oiaohm | pervention of log forgory as what is required to have servers for credit card processing is. | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | in other words, they'll have everything cancerd does | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and how does the black box known as journald prevent job forgery? | Dec 22 21:32 |
| MinceR | (hint: it doesn't) | Dec 22 21:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: in fact it does you stubmon idiot. | Dec 22 21:33 |
| oiaohm | It meets the banking requirements. | Dec 22 21:33 |
| MinceR | how does a huge hairball of unreadable, undocumented, badly written, badly designed code prevent job forgery, you idiot? | Dec 22 21:33 |
| MinceR | then the banks have shitty requirements | Dec 22 21:33 |
| MinceR | have they audited cancerd? | Dec 22 21:34 |
| oiaohm | journald with binary logging on fails. | Dec 22 21:34 |
| oiaohm | journald forwarding to syslog passes. | Dec 22 21:34 |
| oiaohm | and syslogs along fail. | Dec 22 21:34 |
| oiaohm | Using syslog and sysvinit means altering all the init scripts to be client wrapped. | Dec 22 21:35 |
| MinceR | again, who has audited cancerd? | Dec 22 21:35 |
| MinceR | if nobody has audited cancerd, how do you know it won't forge log entries passing through it? | Dec 22 21:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry to say journald is audited only for 1 mode. Logging in credit card processing is required to be in a independant server. | Dec 22 21:39 |
| MinceR | i wonder how that hairball could possibly pass any audit | Dec 22 21:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes audited for the 1 mode general users don't use. | Dec 22 21:40 |
| MinceR | "yet another null pointer dereference. ah well, who gives a fuck" | Dec 22 21:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: bank standard if the complete thing crashes it still passes. Invalid information is failure. | Dec 22 21:46 |
| MinceR | security holes can not only cause crashes | Dec 22 21:47 |
| MinceR | they can also cause data to be corrupted | Dec 22 21:47 |
| oiaohm | All the audited null point errors in systemd cause death. Banking automatic drops incomplete information. | Dec 22 21:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so yes different standard to what you and I would normally call acceptable. | Dec 22 21:48 |
| MinceR | have they audited the web server built into journald for remotely exploitable security holes? | Dec 22 21:48 |
| MinceR | nobody would exploit that, right? :> | Dec 22 21:49 |
| oiaohm | http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journal-gatewayd.service.html | Dec 22 21:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.freedesktop.org | systemd-journal-gatewayd.service | Dec 22 21:49 | |
| oiaohm | You mean this MinceR? | Dec 22 21:49 |
| MinceR | yes, that | Dec 22 21:49 |
| oiaohm | If that on in the banking system you are in trouble. | Dec 22 21:50 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 22 21:50 |
| oiaohm | Features like that can be turned off individually. | Dec 22 21:50 |
| MinceR | if you have cancerd, winblows or OSuX in a banking system, you're in trouble | Dec 22 21:50 |
| MinceR | could poettering conceive of somebody wanting to turn that feature off? | Dec 22 21:50 |
| MinceR | usually he can't | Dec 22 21:50 |
| oiaohm | That gatewayd service is a indenpedepend binary to the main journald binary. | Dec 22 21:50 |
| oiaohm | So yes you can delete it. | Dec 22 21:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: banking systemd is a lot smaller than general systemd after all the non audited parts are deleted. | Dec 22 21:51 |
| MinceR | if somebody finds a vulnerability in cancerd, will that "bank" retain the known broken version or update to the new one with the new holes? | Dec 22 21:51 |
| MinceR | or will they try to backport the fix in the undocumented hairball themselves? | Dec 22 21:52 |
| MinceR | looks like they're really looking for trouble to me | Dec 22 21:52 |
| MinceR | i wonder if that "bank" has more software engineers than redhat (that is, >0) | Dec 22 21:53 |
| oiaohm | Its guys who work for banks who are talking about break up systemd pid1 | Dec 22 21:53 |
| MinceR | (it only takes 1 to say "this horrible maldesigned mess will never work"...) | Dec 22 21:53 |
| MinceR | have they heard of unix? | Dec 22 21:53 |
| MinceR | less work, better results | Dec 22 21:54 |
| oiaohm | The problem here the software engineers at banks are not saying that systemd cannot be fixed. | Dec 22 21:54 |
| oiaohm | They instead point to a stack of areas that need to be rewritten. | Dec 22 21:54 |
| MinceR | i point of a stack of areas that need to be rewritten: 1.) all of the design 2.) all of the code | Dec 22 21:55 |
| oiaohm | Not all the design. | Dec 22 21:55 |
| oiaohm | There are bits that are right. | Dec 22 21:55 |
| MinceR | it gets failing grade, go back to the drawing board | Dec 22 21:55 |
| oiaohm | I would say about 10 percent is correct. | Dec 22 21:55 |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Dec 22 21:56 | |
| MinceR | yeah, the bits are correct, they're just in the wrong order | Dec 22 21:56 |
| MinceR | and there's too many of them | Dec 22 21:56 |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 21:57 | |
| oiaohm | Even sections of systemd code are correct. | Dec 22 21:57 |
| oiaohm | Problem here systemd lack of QA processes and lack of time spent design features before implemetning will result in a lot needing to be rebuilt. | Dec 22 21:58 |
| MinceR | yes, the empty rows are correct | Dec 22 21:58 |
| oiaohm | No I meant section of functional code is correct in places. | Dec 22 21:58 |
| MinceR | lack of clue resulted in that | Dec 22 21:58 |
| MinceR | and none of it would be a problem if it wasn't forced on users | Dec 22 21:58 |
| amarsh04 | I don't like it when one gets silence from the Debian maintainer of udev about how to further debug a reported problem | Dec 22 21:58 |
| MinceR | yet another atrocious piece of software being an _option_ is not an issue | Dec 22 21:59 |
| oiaohm | Its like the wrapper section of journald | Dec 22 21:59 |
| amarsh04 | and there don't exist much in the way of documentation on debugging | Dec 22 21:59 |
| amarsh04 | doesn't exist | Dec 22 21:59 |
| MinceR | destroying a stable, reliable OS for the sake of denying choice to users is the issue | Dec 22 21:59 |
| MinceR | even though they already had several distros to choose from if they wanted cancerd by default | Dec 22 22:00 |
| MinceR | (and one of their fundamental principles is "choice is bad", so that should be more than enough) | Dec 22 22:00 |
| amarsh04 | I was able to find which version of udev introduced the bug and reported it, but had no assistance on further debugging | Dec 22 22:00 |
| MinceR | only the Chosen at redhat are allowed to have that knowledge | Dec 22 22:01 |
| amarsh04 | fortunately the bug (detecting file system of a mobile handset connecting via usb as a mass storage device) was incidentally fixed with a later update | Dec 22 22:01 |
| amarsh04 | being able to use alternatives keeps the interfaces better documented and understood, and helps debugging | Dec 22 22:02 |
| MinceR | but documented and understood interfaces are not "modern" | Dec 22 22:03 |
| MinceR | apparently | Dec 22 22:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: udev lack of good documentation was a problem before systemd | Dec 22 22:16 |
| MinceR | and has since been compounded by udev being assimilated by systemd | Dec 22 22:16 |
| oiaohm | Systemd is mostly all the underdocumented and undermaintained projects shoved in one project | Dec 22 22:17 |
| MinceR | they went from "our small project has no good documentation" to "our ginormous project has no documentation and we have no motivation to change this" | Dec 22 22:17 |
| oiaohm | The idea behind making it 1 ginormous project is to make it large enough that the lack of documetnation and so on could not be just ingnored over that is only udev....... | Dec 22 22:20 |
| MinceR | and yet it's just ignored | Dec 22 22:20 |
| MinceR | and it comes in handy for them as it makes users more dependant on redhat | Dec 22 22:20 |
| MinceR | so they have to buy support contracts | Dec 22 22:20 |
| oiaohm | In fact systemd documentation of stuff has reduced how much is undocumented. | Dec 22 22:20 |
| oiaohm | Even so there is still a lot still needed. | Dec 22 22:20 |
| MinceR | so why do most functions have not a single comment in them?\ | Dec 22 22:21 |
| MinceR | s/.$// | Dec 22 22:21 |
| oiaohm | Most of the imported projects were comment free. | Dec 22 22:21 |
| MinceR | a great tradition that also happens to be "modern" | Dec 22 22:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the problem with all the project that have been merged into the place spreed all over the fact that all those projects lacked QA and documentation was being ingored. | Dec 22 22:31 |
| oiaohm | The one good thing about people being upset about systemd is that they are not be ingored any more. | Dec 22 22:31 |
| MinceR | yeah, right | Dec 22 22:31 |
| MinceR | now that they have even more leverage and they've killed off some competing projects, they have motivation to unfuck things | Dec 22 22:32 |
| MinceR | it worked out that way for microsoft too, right? | Dec 22 22:32 |
| oiaohm | Those competing projects were under QA and underdocuments and complete ingored they were in that state. | Dec 22 22:32 |
| MinceR | they used to compete | Dec 22 22:33 |
| MinceR | now you get a big blob and don't get to change anything about it | Dec 22 22:33 |
| oiaohm | Compete really. | Dec 22 22:33 |
| oiaohm | Lack of developers and updates as well. | Dec 22 22:33 |
| MinceR | and again, you could get this state of matters AND MORE if you just bought winblows, used it, and left debian be | Dec 22 22:33 |
| MinceR | there was no need to demolish the bazaar because you already had the cathedral you wanted | Dec 22 22:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: again you are missing it. Lot of those under maintained projects were costing Debian time and resources maintaining out of tree patches. | Dec 22 22:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Debian was not being left unaffected by unmaintained projects. | Dec 22 22:42 |
| MinceR | finally, debian can spare all that time and all those resources | Dec 22 22:42 |
| MinceR | by taking the fedora installer iso, and changing the name and the logo! | Dec 22 22:42 |
| MinceR | it's an insignificant loss that from a free, stable, universal OS they've gone to a nonfree, unstable OS that only serves poettering's multihead desktop PC use case | Dec 22 22:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: out of tree patches with the upstream updating without them and not accepting does cost a lot of time. | Dec 22 22:43 |
| MinceR | good thing their new upstream is _so_ accepting of patches | Dec 22 22:43 |
| oiaohm | systemd upstream now accept more patchs from debian maintainers that the split packages before did. | Dec 22 22:44 |
| MinceR | it's easier now that the debian "maintainers" do systemd upstream's bidding | Dec 22 22:44 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 22 22:44 |
| MinceR | after they've turned their backs on their users | Dec 22 22:45 |
| oiaohm | In fact debian maintainers get systemd upstream to change things. | Dec 22 22:45 |
| MinceR | they won't change systemd as much as systemd changed debian | Dec 22 22:45 |
| oiaohm | Like you forget systemd was never going to support seperated /usr directly. | Dec 22 22:45 |
| MinceR | i'm extremely concerned about whether redhat's windows clone was going to support separated /usr | Dec 22 22:46 |
| MinceR | because all my wish was to run redhat's windows clone | Dec 22 22:46 |
| MinceR | and yet strangely i still wanted to make choices independently of poettering | Dec 22 22:46 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 22 22:46 |
| oiaohm | Stop calling it a Windows clone. | Dec 22 22:46 |
| MinceR | why stop calling a windows clone a windows clone? | Dec 22 22:46 |
| oiaohm | The structure map matches solaris not Windows. | Dec 22 22:46 |
| MinceR | does slowlaris have a broken GUI that only supports client-side decorations? | Dec 22 22:46 |
| oiaohm | A bad copy of solaris | Dec 22 22:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: client side decorations that is not in fact windows. | Dec 22 22:47 |
| MinceR | is slowlaris as broken as cancerd? | Dec 22 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Note I said bad copy. | Dec 22 22:47 |
| oiaohm | In otherwords systemd is more broken than the SMF and other bits solaris uses todo the same thing. | Dec 22 22:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: windows put windows decorations in kernel space. | Dec 22 22:48 |
| MinceR | i'm awaiting kmutter with bated breath | Dec 22 22:48 |
| MinceR | afaik slowlaris didn't break all the things cancerd and winblows broke | Dec 22 22:49 |
| MinceR | also, is there kdbus in slowlaris? | Dec 22 22:49 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: winblows also put the GUI toolkit in the kernel. | Dec 22 22:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: solaris kernel has a solaris particular IPC that SMF uses. | Dec 22 22:50 |
| MinceR | fun fact: winblows nt was released well before slowlaris 10 | Dec 22 22:50 |
| MinceR | so it looks like slowlaris is copying winblows too | Dec 22 22:51 |
| MinceR | no wonder it's so crap | Dec 22 22:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: solaris copied another Unix with SMF | Dec 22 22:51 |
| MinceR | which one? | Dec 22 22:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you follow it back far enough it the same unix cuttler took ideas from. | Dec 22 22:52 |
| MinceR | xenix? | Dec 22 22:52 |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 22 22:54 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: too microsoft centric. Digital Equipment Corporation is where David cuttler was first employed right MinceR | Dec 22 22:55 |
| oiaohm | What is the name of DEC unit. | Dec 22 22:55 |
| oiaohm | opps Unix. | Dec 22 22:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are tracing back to ULTRIX | Dec 22 22:56 |
| MinceR | so, ultrix was crap enough for cutler and sun to copy | Dec 22 22:56 |
| MinceR | and now you claim all unix must change to match the crap design of ultrix, because that's the true unix way | Dec 22 22:57 |
| oiaohm | ULTRIX was not bad. Sun modern implementation is not that bad. Now NT implementation that is 2 step removed. Ultrix design gets converted to VMS that Cutler works on then NT gets made from that. | Dec 22 22:58 |
| oiaohm | Systemd is also two steps removed. | Dec 22 22:59 |
| MinceR | and yet whenever a horrible design flaw in systemd is mentioned, you trace it back to ultrix | Dec 22 22:59 |
| MinceR | it was not bad, just a collection of horrible design flaws? | Dec 22 22:59 |
| oiaohm | The good parts of systemd trace back to Ultrix like proper service tracking. | Dec 22 22:59 |
| MinceR | and it was a unix, even though it violated every bit of the unix philosophy? | Dec 22 23:00 |
| oiaohm | But bad parts like broken logging don't trace to Ultrix at all. | Dec 22 23:00 |
| MinceR | while unixes that do not, or do less so, are not? | Dec 22 23:00 |
| oiaohm | Lack of proper seperation was not a issue in Ultrix | Dec 22 23:00 |
| MinceR | doesn't proper service tracking imply being able to start and stop services reliably? | Dec 22 23:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically Ultrix could start and stop services reliably so can solaris. | Dec 22 23:01 |
| oiaohm | VMS is also able to start and stop services more dependably than Windows NT | Dec 22 23:01 |
| oiaohm | It seams 2 steps removed from Ultrix is not a good place to be. | Dec 22 23:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically too much of the requirements for the design to work properly seams to be lost in 2 steps. | Dec 22 23:04 |
| MinceR | the atrocious ideas survive those 2 steps just fine, though | Dec 22 23:04 |
| oiaohm | To be truthful most of the atrocious ideas are not in Ultrix but seam to grow in the steps. | Dec 22 23:06 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I would hate of systemd was truly based on Windows Nt because then it would be 3 steps removed and even a bigger nightmare. | Dec 22 23:07 |
| MinceR | it isn't a big enough nightmare for you? | Dec 22 23:08 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it is big enough nightmare we don't really need to give developers the idea to go 3 steps removed as well. | Dec 22 23:09 |
| MinceR | they won't do better 2 steps removed from bad ideas either | Dec 22 23:09 |
| MinceR | maybe they should look to less broken unixes for ideas | Dec 22 23:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are seeing comoninty between Windows and systemd due to common relation involved. | Dec 22 23:10 |
| MinceR | there's also redcrap wanting microsoft's spot | Dec 22 23:10 |
| MinceR | and copying their methids | Dec 22 23:10 |
| MinceR | s/hid/hod/ | Dec 22 23:10 |
| oiaohm | Redhat is not exactly copying Microsoft methods. | Dec 22 23:11 |
| MinceR | and the hordes of idiots claiming that winblows works so great on the desktop, and therefore gnu/linux should copy it | Dec 22 23:11 |
| MinceR | entryism is not a microsoft method? | Dec 22 23:11 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft doing systemd would have seen it under MIT license or equal. With huge number of patents so they could charge anyone who uses it a fortune. | Dec 22 23:11 |
| MinceR | forcing competitors to work in the dark is not a microsoft method? | Dec 22 23:11 |
| MinceR | playing with randomly changing secret APIs is not a microsoft method? | Dec 22 23:11 |
| oiaohm | Changing secret API is a commerical Unix thing just as much as a Microsoft thing. Why autotools has had to exist on Unix to find compadible header files. | Dec 22 23:12 |
| MinceR | at least you _had_ compatible header files | Dec 22 23:13 |
| MinceR | with secret APIs on top of dbus, you don't have an alternative | Dec 22 23:13 |
| MinceR | you could build a shim, only for it to become broken on the next systemd release | Dec 22 23:13 |
| oiaohm | Not documenting sections of API/ABI for commerical advantage starts in the Unix world before Microsoft gets in the server game. | Dec 22 23:13 |
| MinceR | (and dependant application/DE releases) | Dec 22 23:13 |
| oiaohm | Lets please not forget how savage the Unix Wars were. | Dec 22 23:14 |
| MinceR | who did it before m$, and when? | Dec 22 23:14 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft learnt to do it with xenix because all the Unixs they were competeing with at the time were doing it. | Dec 22 23:15 |
| oiaohm | Yes Microsoft learnt some of it bad behavour from the Unix world. | Dec 22 23:15 |
| MinceR | they were careful not to learn anything good, though | Dec 22 23:15 |
| oiaohm | Just as much good comes out the unix world as bad. But microsoft has been a fairly good filtering out only the bad ways do doing thing. | Dec 22 23:16 |
| MinceR | and apparently none of it had anything to do with the people who invented unix | Dec 22 23:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: number of steps removed factor. | Dec 22 23:23 |
| MinceR | i suspect it's more of a "corporate meddling" factor | Dec 22 23:23 |
| oiaohm | Corporate meddling is not a Microsoft unique feature. | Dec 22 23:24 |
| oiaohm | Steps removed fact applies to religion as well a companies. The more steps removed a religions group is from the source group founding the more likely you have terriost actions coming from them based on religion grounds. | Dec 22 23:25 |
| MinceR | and microsoft just happens to be a religion as well as a company | Dec 22 23:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I know hearing that Redhat actions is really just following Unix World nature not what lot want to hear. Even worse is having to accept that some of Microsoft nature comes from the same melting pot. | Dec 22 23:29 |
| oiaohm | Unix world has not been a nice place. | Dec 22 23:29 |
| MinceR | with the right sources, it could also be enlightening | Dec 22 23:29 |
| MinceR | and of course none of this justifies cancerd | Dec 22 23:29 |
| MinceR | or what redcrap does, or what m$ does | Dec 22 23:30 |
| oiaohm | Some of the changes of systemd is justified. The question is can systemd code base ever get cleaned. | Dec 22 23:30 |
| MinceR | it can't be, and there's no point | Dec 22 23:31 |
| MinceR | the fundamental design is broken and the code is a mess | Dec 22 23:31 |
| MinceR | it would be better to redesign and rewrite on a sane base | Dec 22 23:31 |
| MinceR | preferably by people who know what they're doing | Dec 22 23:31 |
| oiaohm | Sorry fundamental design issues of systemd could possible be fixed by internal redesign. | Dec 22 23:31 |
| MinceR | unlikely | Dec 22 23:31 |
| MinceR | they're doing the wrong things in the wrong place for the wrong reason | Dec 22 23:32 |
| MinceR | and what's worse, they don't even understand how they've fucked up | Dec 22 23:32 |
| oiaohm | Doing things in the wrong place for the wrong reason was true for Linux kernel locking. | Dec 22 23:32 |
| MinceR | they'll tell you this is the "modern" way to do things | Dec 22 23:32 |
| oiaohm | And that was fixable by internal redesign. | Dec 22 23:32 |
| MinceR | at least linux is (for now) controlled by someone who knows what he's doing | Dec 22 23:32 |
| MinceR | compare that to poettering | Dec 22 23:33 |
| oiaohm | Please remember at the start Linus did not know what he was doing this is why locking was done wrong in the first place. | Dec 22 23:33 |
| oiaohm | So comparing poettering to Linus there is a chance poettering could still improve like Linus did. | Dec 22 23:33 |
| MinceR | and yet linus had enough clue to choose unix has his model | Dec 22 23:33 |
| MinceR | not windows, not vms, not ultrix | Dec 22 23:34 |
| MinceR | s/has/as/ | Dec 22 23:34 |
| MinceR | and not slowlaris | Dec 22 23:34 |
| oiaohm | Sections in the Linux kernel are based on BSD and solaris and they were put there by Linus. Yes sections of Linux kernel don't match unix specifications either. | Dec 22 23:35 |
| MinceR | bsd is, for now, saner than windows, vms, ultrix and slowlaris, as far as i can tell | Dec 22 23:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix was highly sane. | Dec 22 23:36 |
| MinceR | apparently even freebsd has enough clue to keep the cancer confined to a fork | Dec 22 23:36 |
| oiaohm | Very strong on the QA processes. | Dec 22 23:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix was known for heavy and complete QA processes. | Dec 22 23:36 |
| MinceR | how did their QA processes miss the fact that binary logging is retarded, then? | Dec 22 23:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix binary logging had working log rotation and all the good things. | Dec 22 23:37 |
| oiaohm | and none of the stupidity causing heavy cpu usage/memory usage. | Dec 22 23:37 |
| oiaohm | A proper enforced qa process auditing memory usage as well as security forced on systemd would change it in so many ways it not funny. | Dec 22 23:38 |
| MinceR | "security forced on systemd" involves at the very least auditing that enormous hairball, if not rewriting it entirely | Dec 22 23:39 |
| MinceR | (at least in the latter case you don't have to decipher it) | Dec 22 23:39 |
| MinceR | plus you'll have to separate a lot of modules that weren't designed or written to be separable | Dec 22 23:40 |
| oiaohm | Even attempting to rewrite new without a proper QA process the rewrite risks just making a new hair ball. | Dec 22 23:40 |
| MinceR | of course | Dec 22 23:40 |
| MinceR | you'd have to have clueful people rewrite it, not poettering | Dec 22 23:40 |
| oiaohm | The big thing that happens a 2 steps removed is normally the QA process has magically disappeared. | Dec 22 23:40 |
| MinceR | i think poettering could still have a fulfilling career cleaning toilets or something like that | Dec 22 23:40 |
| oiaohm | No cleaning toilets has a formal QA process. | Dec 22 23:41 |
| MinceR | well, then he's screwed | Dec 22 23:41 |
| oiaohm | The reality due to poettering lack of QA usage he is not suitable to clean tollets. | Dec 22 23:41 |
| MinceR | he could take a government job in hungary | Dec 22 23:42 |
| MinceR | no competence whatsoever is generally required for those | Dec 22 23:42 |
| oiaohm | You think about to tollet QA involved making sure after cleaning that it can flush and that the water flows away. Really would you want to use a tollet that is maintained by a person who does not follow basic QA. | Dec 22 23:44 |
| MinceR | or he could take a code monkey job at m$ | Dec 22 23:51 |
| MinceR | one more idiot there wouldn't make a difference | Dec 22 23:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: winehq.org the wine project is modern development style. Please note being modern does not mean not doing QA processes after patch application. http://test.winehq.org/data/ | Dec 23 00:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-test.winehq.org | Wine test runs | Dec 23 00:41 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 04:21 | |
| -->Cirrus_Minor (~Cirrus_Mi@CAcert/Cirrus-Minor) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 04:29 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 04:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/BrideOfLinux/status/679491430172209153 | Dec 23 04:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@BrideOfLinux: On TV, Cisco kid was a hero, but in O Henry's story, an outlaw responsible for at least eighteen deaths. Apropos. https://t.co/4TgpdUnY41 | Dec 23 04:34 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @BrideOfLinux Waiting for Cisco to come up with some more stories, as they did last year.... | Dec 23 04:34 | |
| <--Cirrus_Minor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 23 04:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6925243 | Dec 23 04:43 |
| schestowitz | "LibreJS, NoScript, Privacy Badger and ad blockers are your friends. but yeah, with all this polution, it’s very hard to breathe on the web these days." | Dec 23 04:43 |
| schestowitz | Even harder with mobile browsers | Dec 23 04:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Remember the days when you could access a Web page without contacting dozens of servers/domains that want to run programs on your PC? | Dec 23 04:43 | |
| schestowitz | > older: | Dec 23 04:58 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 23 04:58 |
| schestowitz | > https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/12/17/so-called-oversight-in-omnicisa/ | Dec 23 04:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/12/17/so-called-oversight-in-omnicisa/ ) | Dec 23 04:58 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 23 04:58 |
| schestowitz | > her RSS feed looks broken | Dec 23 04:58 |
| schestowitz | Someone ought to tell her | Dec 23 04:58 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 04:59 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 05:23 | |
| schestowitz | http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/12/22/mark-levin-attacks-wall-street-journal-editoria/207682 | Dec 23 05:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-mediamatters.org | Mark Levin Attacks Wall Street Journal Editorial Highlighting The Uncompromising Conservative Media Standard For GOP Candidates | Blog | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvq ] | Dec 23 05:56 | |
| schestowitz | "When we started building Mono back in 2001, we wanted to get something up and running very quickly. The idea was to have enough of a system running on Linux that we could have a fully self-hosting C# environment in a short period of time, and we managed to do this within eight months. " | Dec 23 05:56 |
| schestowitz | oops, wrong url | Dec 23 05:56 |
| schestowitz | http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2015/Dec-22.html | Dec 23 05:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-tirania.org | Mono's Cooperative Mode for SGen GC - Miguel de Icaza [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvr ] | Dec 23 05:56 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926355 | Dec 23 06:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Watch what #intel and #microsoft are doing with "national security" (back door) boot in #uefi https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2015/12/22/uefi-and-opensuse-leap-42-1/ http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/UEFI | Dec 23 06:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> nwrickert2.wordpress.com | UEFI and opensuse Leap 42.1 | Thoughts on computing | Dec 23 06:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | UEFI - Techrights | Dec 23 06:11 | |
| -->Anonymous (5fd73e40@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.215.62.64) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 06:28 | |
| ---Anonymous is now known as Guest58361 | Dec 23 06:28 | |
| <--Guest58361 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) | Dec 23 06:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679626569808130048 | Dec 23 06:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I guess Cisco could always claim they were hacked. | Dec 23 06:37 | |
| schestowitz | That's what they usually say | Dec 23 06:37 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/angrymofo/status/679627024881840129 | Dec 23 06:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@angrymofo: @schestowitz MHz for MHz and GB for GB nothing beats raw metal if you can afford to buy it up front. | Dec 23 06:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679630862820839425 | Dec 23 07:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy My understanding was that it was performed after the product left cisco. | Dec 23 07:03 | |
| schestowitz | That's the beacon thing, separate (and worse) thing | Dec 23 07:03 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679631071135182848 | Dec 23 07:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong or misinformed. Not even the first time today. :D | Dec 23 07:04 | |
| schestowitz | The Cisco PR strategy a few months ago was to paint it all as intervention by NSA >outside< of #cisco | Dec 23 07:04 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679634534866894848 | Dec 23 07:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Thank you for clearing that up for me. | Dec 23 07:19 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 23 07:34 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: it would be pretty horrible if we were forced to run wine | Dec 23 08:23 |
| cubexyz | I run wine occasionally for the odd game | Dec 23 08:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to particular things I am forced to. | Dec 23 08:28 |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 23 09:25 | |
| -->jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 10:22 | |
| cubexyz | I tried to divide Linux executables into 'apps' and 'commands' | Dec 23 11:07 |
| cubexyz | but it seems to be a bit arbitrary | Dec 23 11:08 |
| MinceR | i run 'apps' with 'commands' :> | Dec 23 11:08 |
| MinceR | e.g. nohup iceweasel -P -no-remote &! | Dec 23 11:09 |
| cubexyz | so I think what I really meant was command line program vs gui program | Dec 23 11:09 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, I think I'd write a small script for that | Dec 23 11:09 |
| cubexyz | seems like a lot to type | Dec 23 11:09 |
| MinceR | i just recall it from history with ^R | Dec 23 11:10 |
| cubexyz | anyone know where the source is for crontab? | Dec 23 11:25 |
| <--siel has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 23 11:27 | |
| cubexyz | Paul Vixie wrote it I think | Dec 23 11:28 |
| -->siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 11:29 | |
| cubexyz | but written by Matthew Dillon on the Linux side | Dec 23 11:32 |
| <--siel has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 23 11:34 | |
| -->siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 11:34 | |
| cubexyz | but Fedora uses anacron? | Dec 23 11:36 |
| cubexyz | someone trying to be funny | Dec 23 11:37 |
| MinceR | there is anacron, but i'm not sure what's the point | Dec 23 11:47 |
| cubexyz | it's like a different cron | Dec 23 11:49 |
| cubexyz | it can run stuff on machines that don't run 24/7 | Dec 23 11:49 |
| cubexyz | Dec 23 11:50 | |
| cubexyz | could be a fedora thing | Dec 23 11:50 |
| <--siel has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 23 11:51 | |
| cubexyz | although q4os also has anacron | Dec 23 11:51 |
| cubexyz | http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2011/05/anacron-examples/ | Dec 23 11:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.thegeekstuff.com | Cron Vs Anacron: How to Setup Anacron on Linux (With an Example) | Dec 23 11:53 | |
| MinceR | sure, but i thought part of the point of cronjobs was that stuff runs when regularly the machine is not under heavy use | Dec 23 11:54 |
| MinceR | running a bunch of stuff the machine missed on boot seems to be counterproductive | Dec 23 11:54 |
| cubexyz | well it's time based not load based | Dec 23 11:54 |
| MinceR | s/\(when\) \(regularly\)/\2 \1/ | Dec 23 11:54 |
| cubexyz | so I run stuff at 3 am or 4 am usually | Dec 23 11:54 |
| MinceR | i thought ordinary cron could do that too | Dec 23 11:54 |
| cubexyz | regularly? | Dec 23 11:55 |
| MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | Dec 23 11:56 |
| cubexyz | I don't think it's smart enough to run stuff when it's not used | Dec 23 11:56 |
| cubexyz | e.g. when no users are logged in? | Dec 23 11:56 |
| cubexyz | if a cron job is missed I guess it waits for the next event | Dec 23 11:58 |
| cubexyz | and the log for cron is a bit confusing too | Dec 23 12:05 |
| cubexyz | there's /var/log/cron but there's also /var/log/messages | Dec 23 12:05 |
| cubexyz | mainly mine just runs updatedb once a day and sendmail stuff | Dec 23 12:09 |
| cubexyz | oh and the irc log stuff | Dec 23 12:09 |
| <--jgay has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 23 12:15 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/UbuntuTopNews/status/679654751462506496 | Dec 23 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@UbuntuTopNews: Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch https://t.co/LQyUBZDgt8 via @schestowitz https://t.co/4gqFgCGKcY | Dec 23 12:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> gettopical.com | Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch | Dec 23 12:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@UbuntuTopNews: Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch https://t.co/LQyUBZDgt8 via @schestowitz https://t.co/4gqFgCGKcY | Dec 23 12:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/679665435344789504 | Dec 23 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@emptywheel: @schestowitz Thanks. Any idea what time frame? | Dec 23 12:18 | |
| schestowitz | before morning GMT, maybe still | Dec 23 12:18 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/chirho928/status/679713334841589760 | Dec 23 12:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@chirho928: @UbuntuTopNews @schestowitz I'm wishing for Office Suite with lots of connectivity, especially with printers. Practicality before fun. | Dec 23 12:29 | |
| schestowitz | LibreOffice is coming to mobile | Dec 23 12:29 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/679713889605435393 | Dec 23 12:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: A tweet like this MUST have a backstory... https://t.co/8BwgtwtG8J | Dec 23 12:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @emptywheel before morning GMT, maybe still | Dec 23 12:30 | |
| schestowitz | Broken RSS feed | Dec 23 12:30 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/679714532789374977 | Dec 23 12:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz Go Go Golden Bears ! --Berkeley class of '72 | Dec 23 12:30 | |
| -->jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 12:30 | |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 12:32 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 12:34 | |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 13:05 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/agente_smithe/status/679721414052737025 | Dec 23 14:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@agente_smithe: @schestowitz Hi there and Merry Xmas, Dr. Roy. About your talk with RMS, regarding Red Rat & MS, how things evolved ? If they evolved. | Dec 23 14:00 | |
| schestowitz | no change... | Dec 23 14:00 |
| schestowitz | jgay: any update? | Dec 23 14:01 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 15:31 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 15:32 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 23 15:32 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 15:32 | |
| MinceR | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW5RizmWQAAAl3F.png | Dec 23 18:00 |
| <--jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 23 18:17 | |
| cubexyz | I don't think anyone is removing buffer length checks | Dec 23 18:48 |
| -->siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 19:05 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 23 20:26 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 20:36 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 20:59 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 23 21:07 | |
| -->wEs84 (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 22:09 | |
| ---wEs84 is now known as wEs | Dec 23 22:11 | |
| <--wEs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 23 22:19 | |
| -->wEs (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 22:22 | |
| <--wEs has quit (Quit: Gtg See ya Later) | Dec 23 22:29 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 23:48 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 23:50 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/innova_scape/status/679948032599797760 | Dec 24 03:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@innova_scape: RT : Google and Other Tech Giants Open Source BS to name as it didn't liberate SOFTWARE https://t.co/bloIomQXyz | Dec 24 03:54 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Google and Other Tech Giants Open Source #MachineLearning https://t.co/8aeNPYtz4B BS to name #facebook as it didn't liberate SOFTWARE | Dec 24 03:54 | |
| schestowitz | >> > http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/4500260750/Old-Microsoft-Kerberos-vulnerability-gets-new-spotlight | Dec 24 04:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-searchsecurity.techtarget.com | Old Microsoft Kerberos vulnerability gets new spotlight | Dec 24 04:04 | |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > M$ contributions to security | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > - | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.fiercecio.com/story/researcher-highlights-serious-flaw-windows-kerberos-authentication/2015-12-15 | Dec 24 04:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fiercecio.com | Researcher highlights serious flaw in Windows Kerberos authentication - FierceCIO [ http://ur1.ca/ocwob ] | Dec 24 04:04 | |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > == | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > [snip] | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > This might be why GRUB stays in the news. M$ implementation of kerberos | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > is fundamentally broken. This fact should be bigger than the openssl | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > bug and the warnings that the kerberos community got before M$ | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | > interference dusted off and brought forward again. | Dec 24 04:04 |
| schestowitz | I thought about it.... | Dec 24 04:04 |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 05:55 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 06:49 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450896537025#c1574256729623240792 | Dec 24 08:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters | Dec 24 08:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | 2016 budget | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Board of Appeal planned to decrease in budgeted size by over 1%. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | President's Office planned to increase in budgeted size by nearly 20%. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | What more need be said? | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450898317581#c7071748749463986149 | Dec 24 08:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzc ] | Dec 24 08:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Will HR be equally self-financing? And, if so, how? | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Not even DG1 is self-financed. Searches cost money, examinations cost money, oppositions cost money, appeals cost money. DG0/2/4/5 cost money. The AC costs money. It's all funded by renewal fees. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Missing members - 18 now but how many after end of year retirements? | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | According to this post, there will be 27 missing members at the end of this year. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | There can't be anybody ready beyond personal nomination by him? | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Yep. It is almost surprising that it has not happened earlier. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | Regarding "how is he going to do that", I was mainly wondering how he is going to decide what the new proposal will contain if the AC has taken the task of drafting the proposal out of his hands. But the exact situation at the moment is not clear to me. If the recent interview is anything to go by, we're simply back to March this year... BB gets another try but this time without a user survey, so without the need to misrepresent input from | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | users. | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450907943032#c9104676679831085546 | Dec 24 08:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzg ] | Dec 24 08:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | How could the EPO even enforce the ban on a new work? This he would have to do under the national law of themember state where I would want to work, as only those courts apply to me then. And these court cases arenearly always lost, thus the employee may do the desired work. | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | I see more an issue finding sn employer who is willing to take the risk, as he could influence a proceeding revoking them their representative status, or as suggested above by Cynic.. | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, he should then also prevent any external ones from applying for posts at the BoA, as their previous colleagues could try to influence case in their client's favour. | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | - one of those EPO examiners. | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450942427785#c3900027317862986665 | Dec 24 08:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzh ] | Dec 24 08:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | @ one of those epo examiners. How? The same way the investigations into the suicides were stopped: by not paying the pensions. That is, even though illegal, a mighty good weapon in view of the fact that it takes 14 years to gain your case. | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | Sadcat | Dec 24 08:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 08:49 |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 24 09:45 | |
| -->jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 09:52 | |
| <--XRevan86 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 24 10:02 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 10:03 | |
| <--Sosumi has quit (Quit: Bye) | Dec 24 10:30 | |
| <--jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 24 12:06 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 12:18 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest5230 | Dec 24 12:19 | |
| ---Guest5230 is now known as DaemonFC | Dec 24 12:22 | |
| <--DaemonFC has quit (Changing host) | Dec 24 12:22 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@unaffiliated/daemonfc) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 12:22 | |
| msb__ | https://www.rt.com/news/326814-error-451-government-blocked/ | Dec 24 12:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rt.com | Error 451: New Bradbury-inspired HTTP code to show legal censorship — RT News [ http://ur1.ca/ocx8z ] | Dec 24 12:48 | |
| msb__ | https://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-http-451-error-code-for-censorship-is-now-an-internet-standard | Dec 24 12:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-motherboard.vice.com | The HTTP 451 Error Code for Censorship Is Now an Internet Standard | Motherboard [ http://ur1.ca/ocx92 ] | Dec 24 12:49 | |
| DaemonFC | I got one of my cats spayed yesterday. They must have given her too much anesthetic. She's just now starting to come out of it. | Dec 24 13:01 |
| DaemonFC | Trying to monitor her fluid intake. | Dec 24 13:01 |
| msb__ | I've had vets kill cats by outrageous malpractice. | Dec 24 13:11 |
| msb__ | They use teenage girls as assistants who know nothing. | Dec 24 13:11 |
| cubexyz | wow, Fahrenheit 451 for real | Dec 24 13:11 |
| -->Anonymous (25fcbea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.252.190.165) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 13:12 | |
| ---Anonymous is now known as Guest96130 | Dec 24 13:12 | |
| Guest96130 | Hi! I´m the one who wrote to you about the Chabod letter. I have the letter | Dec 24 13:13 |
| Guest96130 | but I cannot send it now since I´m away for holidays. | Dec 24 13:13 |
| Guest96130 | You´ll get it after New Year. | Dec 24 13:13 |
| Guest96130 | I can scan it although I´d prefer to send it by post. | Dec 24 13:14 |
| <--DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 24 13:14 | |
| Guest96130 | I wish I could see an email address or a normal post address somewhere on the site. | Dec 24 13:15 |
| Guest96130 | We´re all getting paranoid about net security with Control Risks working for Batistelli. | Dec 24 13:16 |
| Guest96130 | We´re truly grateful for your blog! | Dec 24 13:16 |
| <--Guest96130 has quit (Quit: Page closed) | Dec 24 13:17 | |
| msb__ | Guest96130: look at http://techrights.org/home/ for contact info. | Dec 24 13:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Techrights | People's rights in the digital age | Plutocracy threatened by freedom, democracy, privacy & civil rights | Dec 24 13:17 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 13:22 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest61500 | Dec 24 13:22 | |
| msb__ | Guest61500: are you previous Guest96130? | Dec 24 13:23 |
| ---Guest61500 is now known as DaemonFC | Dec 24 13:23 | |
| <--DaemonFC has quit (Changing host) | Dec 24 13:24 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@unaffiliated/daemonfc) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 13:24 | |
| DaemonFC | Hell if I know. Chrome IRC is about the shittiest IRC client ever. | Dec 24 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: They seem to know what they're doing. | Dec 24 13:24 |
| msb__ | DaemonFC: Who? | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | They handle the spay and neuter program for Fort Wayne Animal Care and Control and have a bunch of good reviews on Facebook and Google. | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | The Spay and Neuter Clinic. | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | Her vet wanted like $275. Needless to say, it's not in the budget right now. | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | I spent a lot of money moving here, and then my cat died. | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | He had some expensive bills before we had to have him put down. | Dec 24 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | There's a couple of low cost spay and neuter clinics here. They're like $55-65 for a female cat, and like $40 for a male cat. | Dec 24 13:26 |
| msb__ | One of my cats needed a slow calcium drip because of gland problem. Moron vet gave her a calcium bolus which solidified her circulatory system and killed her. | Dec 24 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not too worried about the vet's experience level. She does hundreds of these every month. | Dec 24 13:27 |
| MinceR | http://metro.co.uk/2015/06/11/bad-news-for-anyone-who-likes-to-drink-camel-urine-5240920/ | Dec 24 13:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-metro.co.uk | This is why people drink camel urine | Metro News | Dec 24 13:27 | |
| DaemonFC | It's better to get the cat spayed even if she won't be near a male. They go into heat if you don't. It's very annoying and it's really hard on them to keep going through heat cycles. | Dec 24 13:28 |
| msb__ | Another vet did extensive cancer surgery on my cat, and put him in overnight care. Teenage girl workers there yanked his tail to move or control him, spraining it severely. | Dec 24 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | Plus, not having the reproductive parts means they can't get a disease (like cancer) in any of those bits. | Dec 24 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | If she was like 5-6, I probably wouldn't have gotten it done. | Dec 24 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | Younger cats recover much faster. | Dec 24 13:29 |
| msb__ | Yes, or you can dildoize them with a blunt-nosed plastic medicine dropper -- carefully! That gets them out of heat. | Dec 24 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | It didn't take Jabba very long to bounce back at all, but he was a male. It's a much simpler operation on males. | Dec 24 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I'll just pretend I didn't read that. :P | Dec 24 13:30 |
| msb__ | I read it in a book on cat care. | Dec 24 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | Spayed and neutered cats tend to live longer. | Dec 24 13:31 |
| msb__ | ...except it said to ask your vet for a glass rod for the purpose. | Dec 24 13:31 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: With a male, you really don't have a choice, unless you like an aggressive cat that goes around pissing on your stuff. LOL | Dec 24 13:31 |
| msb__ | Perhaps same is true of people if genitals are removed. | Dec 24 13:31 |
| msb__ | Yes, that's true. | Dec 24 13:31 |
| DaemonFC | I've been watching House of Cards. | Dec 24 13:32 |
| DaemonFC | The US version. | Dec 24 13:33 |
| DaemonFC | I'm thinking that Frank Underwood would make a better president than we've had in a while, and he's killed at least two people that we know of so far. | Dec 24 13:33 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I've been buying up Blu Ray discs on Amazon UK. It's cheaper for me to pay in GBP and import them to the US. | Dec 24 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | They still cost half of what they do here, it's ridiculous. | Dec 24 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | Different distributor maybe? Lower price because the stuff is less popular there? | Dec 24 13:35 |
| DaemonFC | It's also the most favorable exchange rate we've had in a while. The USD is unusually strong as of late. | Dec 24 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | It's also been the warmest winter in Indiana in years. Yesterday, we broke temperature records from 1933. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | We also had a huge thunderstorm and a couple of tornadoes, which is almost unheard of during this time of the year. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | If people were any kind of reasonable, having a governor that says there's no such thing as climate change in office while this kind of crap is going on outside would almost be comical. | Dec 24 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | We haven't had a "normal"-ish year of weather where I live since 2011. | Dec 24 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | There was the record drought in the summer of 2012, where we also got fried by temperatures in the 115 degree F range for days on end. It was in the 80s in March of that year... | Dec 24 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | 2013 and 2014 were the coldest winters ever. It dropped down to 30 degrees below zero both years. It never got warm enough for any of the snow to melt, so we had two feet of snow in my yard. Snow plows were running out of places to put it. Fort Wayne's snow removal budget ran out several times and the mayor had to top it off with money from the city Light Lease fund. | Dec 24 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | 2015-2016 might be the year with no winter at all. It was 66 degrees yesterday. | Dec 24 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | The normal amount of heating should have produced an electric bill close to $100 for an apartment like mine. I opened it up this month and it was $32. | Dec 24 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | There was also record rainfall this summer, which drowned a bunch of corn and caused it to die off. | Dec 24 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | Of course, the farmers have no reason to care because the federal government comes in and pays off all of the projected losses for stuff that they tried to grow, so they actually make more money on years where it fails. | Dec 24 13:55 |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 13:55 | |
| DaemonFC | There's going to be a day of reckoning. | Dec 24 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | I saw an article about "9 things you didn't know there was a shortage of". Of course, coffee and chocolate will not be a huge concern when food shortages leave shelves bare and food inflation is in the triple digits for what they do have. | Dec 24 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I've been using the Chromebook mostly since the move. I'm responsible for the electric now. | Dec 24 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | It only uses like 14 watts even when it's under full load. | Dec 24 14:17 |
| DaemonFC | I'd like to see a Chromebox that can output at 2160p. I'd love to hook that up to my TV. | Dec 24 14:18 |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 24 14:19 | |
| <--DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 24 15:20 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 24 15:21 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 16:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/680141456531664896 | Dec 24 16:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz Finally ended my apple connection today with the selling of my iPhone. Can't see myself going back, just getting worse. | Dec 24 16:48 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 24 17:31 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/nomorecakepls/status/680147658519003137 | Dec 24 18:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@nomorecakepls: @schestowitz @Messgorough Shame on you PayPal! | Dec 24 18:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/haniefhaider/status/680150329900535808 | Dec 24 18:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@haniefhaider: @schestowitz I also don't like PayPal. But forced to open a PP account when buying through eBay. So unfair. | Dec 24 18:12 | |
| schestowitz | Same here | Dec 24 18:12 |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 18:20 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 24 19:06 | |
| cubexyz | first december I can remember without any snow at all | Dec 24 19:38 |
| cubexyz | only a few flakes that melted a few minutes later | Dec 24 19:38 |
| cubelog | ps | Dec 24 20:13 |
| ---#techrights :You're not a channel operator | Dec 24 20:13 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 20:55 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 22:23 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest57955 | Dec 24 22:23 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 24 22:34 | |
| <--Guest57955 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 24 23:18 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 23:18 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest99176 | Dec 24 23:19 | |
| -->scientes (~Shawn@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 23:27 | |
| scientes | Merry Christmas schestowitz | Dec 24 23:29 |
| <--MinceR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 25 00:08 | |
| -->MinceR (~mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 00:10 | |
| -->WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 01:08 | |
| <--WeS has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 01:09 | |
| msb__ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0gfTr1jqLY | Dec 25 02:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | Lick the Tins - Can't Help Falling in Love - YouTube | Dec 25 02:05 | |
| <--Guest99176 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 25 02:45 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 25 04:57 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 05:00 | |
| <--scientes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 25 05:55 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 06:07 | |
| schestowitz | just woke up | Dec 25 07:09 |
| schestowitz | midday | Dec 25 07:09 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: didn't know it was warm in n america too this year | Dec 25 07:10 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/680208581598253056 | Dec 25 07:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Have you decided what to use next? I've just switched to GNOME, again :)) from Cinnamon. | Dec 25 07:11 | |
| schestowitz | KDE3 is not simple to move to anymore (and systemd is not helping), so unsure what would have functional parity, still need to think/test | Dec 25 07:11 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 07:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 25 07:15 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 07:15 |
| schestowitz | Tis the season for bad laws, | Dec 25 07:15 |
| schestowitz | fa la-la, la-la, la la-la, la. | Dec 25 07:15 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 07:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 07:16 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926327 | Dec 25 07:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: "Fox 'News' has a long history of promoting sexism on-air" http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/12/22/fox-ne #newscorp | Dec 25 07:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> mediamatters.org | Fox News' 10 Most Cringe-Worthy Sexist Moments Of 2015 | Research | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocyed ] | Dec 25 07:18 | |
| schestowitz | "A sandwich shop close to work put in a TV and had Fox News running on it. The show featured half a dozen attractive women sitting on a stage talking about a “study” that concluded men could assemble furniture faster than women. Everywhere you go, there’s a TV pouring out corporate distraction and bullshit." | Dec 25 07:18 |
| schestowitz | Reinforcing the patriarchy, to brainwash women too... | Dec 25 07:18 |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 07:28 | |
| oiaohm | This kinda shows how security stuff just gets pushed back http://www.eweek.com/security/companies-get-two-year-reprieve-in-being-fully-pci-dss-compliant.html | Dec 25 07:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.eweek.com | PCI DSS Dials Back on SSL/TLS 1.1 Requirement | Dec 25 07:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/recuweb/status/680370193747423232 | Dec 25 08:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@recuweb: @schestowitz It’s almost always harder toraiseCapital than you thought it would be, and it always takes longer. So plan for that. | Dec 25 08:19 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yea, seen that | Dec 25 08:29 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: security comes second, apparently | Dec 25 08:29 |
| schestowitz | after "national security" | Dec 25 08:29 |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 08:41 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 08:43 | |
| cubexyz | try q4os with trinity | Dec 25 09:07 |
| -->scientes (~Shawn@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 09:12 | |
| schestowitz | what will happen to the settings of my qt5 applications? | Dec 25 09:13 |
| schestowitz | like kate? | Dec 25 09:13 |
| cubexyz | I think trinity uses qt3 and qt4 | Dec 25 09:14 |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 09:15 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-kate.png | Dec 25 09:18 |
| cubexyz | so there is kate, but I think it's mostly like KDE 3.5.10 kate with a few updates | Dec 25 09:18 |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 09:29 | |
| schestowitz | I still like some KDE applications | Dec 25 09:41 |
| schestowitz | I just don't want the whole plasma BS | Dec 25 09:41 |
| schestowitz | I can run kde apps under another environment | Dec 25 09:41 |
| schestowitz | need klipper and a few other kde tools | Dec 25 09:41 |
| -->wEs84 (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 09:53 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/680403861929066496 | Dec 25 10:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: I hope for such decision in @debian too. https://t.co/IldpnRZKXm | Dec 25 10:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Software packaged in Fedora should not be allowed to implement DRM schemes that cannot be disabled https://t.co/GJ8ODOqOtr #mozilla #firefox | Dec 25 10:08 | |
| cubexyz | one can use klipper with other window managers | Dec 25 10:33 |
| cubexyz | e.g. icewm + klipper + some gnome stuff + some other KDE stuff | Dec 25 10:34 |
| schestowitz | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3xurro/remember_when_computer_magazines_used_to/ | Dec 25 10:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.reddit.com | Remember when computer magazines used to encourage you to learn, program and create, rather than just tell you what products to buy? We do, so 3 years ago we started a magazine like that, in Finnish. Now we'd like to bring it to you in English, as well. : linux | Dec 25 10:37 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/matthewstinar/status/680410575868944384 | Dec 25 11:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@matthewstinar: @schestowitz This one goes on my list of things that shouldn't need to be said. | Dec 25 11:05 | |
| MinceR | one can also use ClipIt instead of klipper | Dec 25 11:09 |
| cubexyz | sure... xfce has clipman | Dec 25 11:10 |
| cubexyz | choice is good | Dec 25 11:10 |
| schestowitz | http://nicholaswilson.com/fairheads-corrupt-appointment-to-bbc/ | Dec 25 11:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-nicholaswilson.com | Fairhead’s corrupt appointment to BBC | Mr Ethical | Dec 25 11:10 | |
| -->sebsebseb (~unitytrye@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 11:25 | |
| sebsebseb | hi | Dec 25 11:25 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: | Dec 25 11:25 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 11:25 |
| sebsebseb | wheover else may be here | Dec 25 11:25 |
| schestowitz | cheers | Dec 25 11:27 |
| schestowitz | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 11:27 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/merry-newtonmass.jpg | Dec 25 11:27 |
| MinceR | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 11:28 |
| cubexyz | 1642 | Dec 25 11:31 |
| sebsebseb | grav mass oh?? | Dec 25 11:37 |
| sebsebseb | why you caling it that | Dec 25 11:37 |
| cubexyz | some say netwonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 11:38 |
| cubexyz | ugh | Dec 25 11:38 |
| cubexyz | some say newtonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 11:38 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 11:57 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 11:58 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 11:58 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 11:58 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 12:07 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest35438 | Dec 25 12:07 | |
| <--Guest35438 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 25 12:21 | |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: https://stallman.org/grav-mass.html | Dec 25 12:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stallman.org | Celebrate Grav-Mass | Dec 25 12:24 | |
| schestowitz | wtf? | Dec 25 12:47 |
| schestowitz | is sddm systemd dm? | Dec 25 12:47 |
| schestowitz | I was just asked, when installing gnome, if I want gdm and sddm | Dec 25 12:47 |
| schestowitz | Which I guess is that crappy thing which *buntu now uses | Dec 25 12:47 |
| schestowitz | is this a systemd thing? | Dec 25 12:47 |
| schestowitz | I am trying to quit kde for the first time in 16 years | Dec 25 12:51 |
| MinceR | dunno, i've never heard of sddm before | Dec 25 12:51 |
| schestowitz | I've basically had enough | Dec 25 12:51 |
| schestowitz | they add new bugs quicker than they remove existing ones | Dec 25 12:52 |
| schestowitz | if I click a link in konversion it now freezed for almost a minute | Dec 25 12:52 |
| schestowitz | !google linux sddm | Dec 25 12:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - SDDM - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SDDM | Dec 25 12:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Display manager - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_manager | Dec 25 12:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Simple Desktop Display Manager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Desktop_Display_Manager | Dec 25 12:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Display Managers In Plasma 5 | David Edmundson's Web Log | http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/display_managers_finale | Dec 25 12:52 |
| schestowitz | OK, so not a systemd thing | Dec 25 12:52 |
| MinceR | ah, waylandows thing | Dec 25 12:52 |
| schestowitz | ewww | Dec 25 12:53 |
| MinceR | though x11 also | Dec 25 12:53 |
| schestowitz | waylenndows | Dec 25 12:53 |
| schestowitz | grasslin loves it | Dec 25 12:53 |
| MinceR | at least grasslin has enough clue to recognize that CSD sucks | Dec 25 12:53 |
| schestowitz | also a redhat thing, with intel(lligence agencies) | Dec 25 12:53 |
| MinceR | unlike most of the waylandows fans | Dec 25 12:53 |
| schestowitz | much like systemd and uefi/shim | Dec 25 12:54 |
| MinceR | apparently sddm comes partly from kde and lxqt people | Dec 25 12:54 |
| schestowitz | I wish I could go back 5 years for proper distros | Dec 25 12:54 |
| schestowitz | vista 10 shows even windows is being broken | Dec 25 12:54 |
| schestowitz | more than ever, now a crappy keylogger | Dec 25 12:54 |
| schestowitz | and we too, led by red hat, seem to be subjected to masochism | Dec 25 12:55 |
| schestowitz | now gnome is installing loads of games | Dec 25 12:55 |
| schestowitz | why are they part of the base, I just want the shell thing | Dec 25 12:55 |
| schestowitz | nmap | Dec 25 12:55 |
| schestowitz | odd, gnome now comes with nmap in the metapackage gnome | Dec 25 12:56 |
| schestowitz | what gnome application needs nmap? | Dec 25 12:56 |
| XFaCE | schestowitz: switch to xfce? | Dec 25 12:56 |
| schestowitz | Too late, unless gnome sucks too | Dec 25 12:56 |
| MinceR | gnome has sucked since 2.x | Dec 25 12:56 |
| schestowitz | I tried enlightenment, but it doesn't do a good enough job detecting and configuring my screens | Dec 25 12:56 |
| schestowitz | at least gnome is likely to do a decent enough job detecting external laptop dsplay/s | Dec 25 12:57 |
| schestowitz | rianne has xfce installed | Dec 25 12:57 |
| schestowitz | but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 12:57 |
| schestowitz | *ugly | Dec 25 12:57 |
| schestowitz | I wished dpkg had some progress indicator based on the number of packages left to process | Dec 25 12:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: what are you using as a DE? | Dec 25 12:58 |
| schestowitz | And does it sit on top of a Lennix base? | Dec 25 12:58 |
| schestowitz | I made a huge mistake in April, I was hoping it would get better, got all the updates, backports, whatever | Dec 25 12:58 |
| MinceR | xfce and lxde and no | Dec 25 12:58 |
| XRevan86 | MATE, Cinnamon | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:23]<schestowitz> but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:27]<schestowitz> *ugly | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | well that's the default | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | a quick theme change and stuff fixes that easily | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | dedoimedo has a lot of tutorials for xfce for that issue | Dec 25 12:59 |
| schestowitz | even with customisation you couldn't get the same visual effects | Dec 25 12:59 |
| MinceR | i don't need visual effects | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | compiz if needed | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: One can use Compiz with Xfce. | Dec 25 12:59 |
| schestowitz | I just need something I can work on | Dec 25 12:59 |
| XFaCE | xfce fits that bill | Dec 25 13:00 |
| schestowitz | recently I cannot even use many applications in parallel, too slow and too laggy | Dec 25 13:00 |
| XFaCE | it lacks the unnecessary fluff of other DEs | Dec 25 13:00 |
| XFaCE | and has a more sane release cycle | Dec 25 13:00 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: MATE fluffiness? :) | Dec 25 13:00 |
| XFaCE | mate is odl | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XFaCE | *old | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XFaCE | old tech | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XFaCE | a stopgap | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XFaCE | same reason I don't use Trinity | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: That's some logic. | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XRevan86 | MATE supports Gtk2 and Gtk3, a matter of choice. | Dec 25 13:01 |
| schestowitz | pidgin now takes about 10 secs to start up | Dec 25 13:01 |
| schestowitz | vlc sometimes more | Dec 25 13:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: While Xfce is stopgapping on Gtk2, right? %) | Dec 25 13:02 |
| XFaCE | nope | Dec 25 13:02 |
| XFaCE | they already are transitioning to gtk3 | Dec 25 13:02 |
| schestowitz | something here is terrible broken and I'm not sure if it's kde or systemd, but I know kde embraces systemd | Dec 25 13:02 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: So what's so old-techy in MATE? | Dec 25 13:02 |
| schestowitz | Maybe kf5 could be sane if it didn't have to deal with this underlying overhaul | Dec 25 13:02 |
| XRevan86 | I understand Trinity but MATE… ? | Dec 25 13:02 |
| schestowitz | when I adopted kf5 it didn't even properly deal with notifications and event sounds | Dec 25 13:02 |
| schestowitz | df | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | oops | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Errors were encountered while processing: | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | /var/cache/apt/archives/account-plugin-google_0.12+15.10.20150723-0ubuntu1_all.deb | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | meh | Dec 25 13:03 |
| schestowitz | wouldn't be so amusing if my system stopped booting on xmas day | Dec 25 13:04 |
| schestowitz | Setting up gir1.2-ibus-1.0:i386 (1.5.10-1ubuntu1) ... | Dec 25 13:05 |
| schestowitz | ? | Dec 25 13:05 |
| schestowitz | looks like "girl" | Dec 25 13:05 |
| schestowitz | gtk-ir-1? | Dec 25 13:05 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: gir == gobject introspection repostory | Dec 25 13:05 |
| XRevan86 | repository | Dec 25 13:05 |
| XRevan86 | GObject universal bindings. | Dec 25 13:06 |
| XRevan86 | One gir1.2-ibus-1.0 makes ibus development stuff available for all gobject introspection supported languages like python, lua, perl. | Dec 25 13:07 |
| schestowitz | thanks, this isn't a good afternoon so far, kde won't let me work in peace | Dec 25 13:07 |
| schestowitz | been 8 months, not seeing improvement that merits optimism | Dec 25 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Processing triggers for systemd (225-1ubuntu9) ... | Dec 25 13:08 |
| schestowitz | grr | Dec 25 13:08 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Welcome to Ubuntu. | Dec 25 13:09 |
| schestowitz | brb, trying something... | Dec 25 13:09 |
| XRevan86 | 15.04 | Dec 25 13:09 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 13:11 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Dec 25 13:11 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: oh Roy not here, well KDE dropped KDM, sddm replaces it | Dec 25 13:29 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 25 13:32 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: LXDE also died, razorQT replaces that | Dec 25 13:34 |
| cubexyz | there's trinity kdm | Dec 25 13:34 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Trinity is a KDE 3 fork | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | and hardly any distros provide it offically | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | if any actually | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | got to use unoffical packages from them | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | tried that once before in Mageia, didn't really work so well | Dec 25 13:35 |
| cubexyz | q4os uses it, I've got it on one computer | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | they have something based on Ubuntu I think though or DEbian for Trinty as a LIve CD etc though | Dec 25 13:35 |
| sebsebseb | what's g4os? | Dec 25 13:35 |
| cubexyz | q4os | Dec 25 13:35 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: you mean lxqt | Dec 25 13:36 |
| cubexyz | http://cubexyz.blogspot.ca/search?q=q4os | Dec 25 13:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-cubexyz.blogspot.ca | Notes on Linux | Dec 25 13:37 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yeah lxqt not LXDE | Dec 25 13:37 |
| cubexyz | also Exe Linux has it | Dec 25 13:38 |
| cubexyz | haven't tried Exe though | Dec 25 13:38 |
| cubexyz | http://exegnulinux.net | Dec 25 13:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-exegnulinux.net | Exe GNU/Linux - Debian GNU/Linux with a Devon flavour from Exmouth | Dec 25 13:39 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: q40s maybe I hae heard of that before or not, exe gnulinux no wya | Dec 25 13:39 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: unknown distros have TRinity by default then | Dec 25 13:40 |
| sebsebseb | anything known enough nope | Dec 25 13:40 |
| cubexyz | nope what? | Dec 25 13:42 |
| sebsebseb | any distros that are known enough dont have Trinity! | Dec 25 13:42 |
| cubexyz | so? | Dec 25 13:42 |
| cubexyz | if you have never used it your opinion doesn't really count does it? | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | most KDE users have moved on to KDE 4, and soon KDE 5 too | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I treid to install it | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | into Magiea once but got issues | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | also I Think I did try a LIve session of TRintiy before | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | based on Debian or whatever | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | or based on Ubuntu | Dec 25 13:43 |
| cubexyz | I had zero problems using q4os | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: at one stage I was quite interestd in running Trinity possibly | Dec 25 13:43 |
| sebsebseb | ,but in a distro such as Mageia | Dec 25 13:44 |
| sebsebseb | or maybe UBuntu | Dec 25 13:44 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: does q4os come with Trinity by deffault? | Dec 25 13:45 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 13:45 |
| cubexyz | install and done | Dec 25 13:45 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-kalzium-2015.png | Dec 25 13:46 |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 13:46 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 13:47 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-2015.png | Dec 25 13:47 |
| cubexyz | that pic is probably better | Dec 25 13:47 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: uh your screenshot is KDE 4.8 ? | Dec 25 13:47 |
| cubexyz | it's not, that's just kalzium | Dec 25 13:48 |
| cubexyz | there's some qt4 stuff in q4os | Dec 25 13:48 |
| sebsebseb | hmm so it can run KDE 4 stuff | Dec 25 13:48 |
| sebsebseb | as well? | Dec 25 13:48 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 13:48 |
| sebsebseb | and you can hve both even, say the KDE 3 version of Konversation and the KDE 4 one for example? | Dec 25 13:48 |
| cubexyz | not sure about that | Dec 25 13:49 |
| *sebsebseb this lap top still isn't quite set up I wanted it since.... | Dec 25 13:49 | |
| sebsebseb | well the UEFI for a start in WIndows 10 | Dec 25 13:49 |
| sebsebseb | I can't actsaully | Dec 25 13:49 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 13:49 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 13:49 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 13:49 | |
| sebsebseb | well I don't know how to make Grub come up first on it | Dec 25 13:49 |
| schestowitz | didn't even startx | Dec 25 13:49 |
| sebsebseb | I tried something that could mabye do it , but didn't get far | Dec 25 13:49 |
| schestowitz | bloody thing | Dec 25 13:49 |
| schestowitz | I now have to start it manually | Dec 25 13:49 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: you missed my resposne earlier, but KDE dropped KDM, sddm replaces it | Dec 25 13:49 |
| sebsebseb | raqorQT replaces LXDE to | Dec 25 13:50 |
| schestowitz | thanks | Dec 25 13:50 |
| cubexyz | let me try loading it | Dec 25 13:50 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: thanks to me? | Dec 25 13:50 |
| schestowitz | I'm on gnome3 at the moment, on tty1 | Dec 25 13:50 |
| schestowitz | as tty7 hangs | Dec 25 13:50 |
| cubexyz | I'm merely pointing out alternatives | Dec 25 13:50 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: in which distro? | Dec 25 13:50 |
| schestowitz | kubuntu | Dec 25 13:50 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: alternatives for? | Dec 25 13:50 |
| sebsebseb | Kubuntu is pointless pretty much now! | Dec 25 13:51 |
| schestowitz | what's the meta-package name for xfce? | Dec 25 13:51 |
| schestowitz | it doesn't find xfce | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | and I have met Johnothan Riddle in person :d | Dec 25 13:51 |
| schestowitz | or xfce-desktop | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | I talked to him at FOSDEM this year enough :) | Dec 25 13:51 |
| cubexyz | people liked the old KDE 3.5 including myself so I thought I'd try trinity | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | and he must have been there the year before etc to | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: you looked like the old KDE 2 or whatever it was, if I remember correctly | Dec 25 13:51 |
| cubexyz | for IRC I still use xchat | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | liked above | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | I use Konversation still, but | Dec 25 13:51 |
| cubexyz | no, I use differ eras as needed | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | I don't like how | Dec 25 13:51 |
| sebsebseb | for some reason the channels etc are on the left now | Dec 25 13:52 |
| cubexyz | e.g. kubik from KDE 1 | Dec 25 13:52 |
| sebsebseb | not down the bottom like before | Dec 25 13:52 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Why not ubuntu-mate-desktop ? | Dec 25 13:52 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: why not Magiea or something for KDE :) | Dec 25 13:52 |
| schestowitz | gnome3 is VERY bloated | Dec 25 13:52 |
| sebsebseb | I think running Ubuntu is a bit pointless really unless going to run Unity :) | Dec 25 13:52 |
| cubexyz | I don't really like anything 100% so I try a bunch of different things | Dec 25 13:52 |
| schestowitz | 1 GB of RAM before I even start anything | Dec 25 13:53 |
| schestowitz | or something like that | Dec 25 13:53 |
| schestowitz | is this just a new 'distro' 'standard'? | Dec 25 13:53 |
| schestowitz | The DE itself does take up a lot, too | Dec 25 13:53 |
| sebsebseb | heh no, but Live CD's are out for most distros now | Dec 25 13:53 |
| sebsebseb | it's DVD's now | Dec 25 13:53 |
| sebsebseb | or soon | Dec 25 13:53 |
| sebsebseb | yep Mageia is dropping the Live CD's starting with 6 | Dec 25 13:53 |
| sebsebseb | Ubuntu already has it seems | Dec 25 13:54 |
| sebsebseb | DVD sizee now | Dec 25 13:54 |
| cubexyz | ok, I can now answer your question about konversation... it uses 4.8.4 version of KDE (konversation 1.4) | Dec 25 13:54 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Konversation Version 1.6 Using KDE Frameworks 5.9.0 that's Ubuntu or Kubuntu whatever, I am actusally running Ubuntu 15.10 with Unity right now, since distrowise this lap top isn't quite set up fully yet | Dec 25 13:55 |
| sebsebseb | with pshyicall installs | Dec 25 13:55 |
| cubexyz | I mainly use icewm with bits and pieces from other DE's | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Trinity is not so good at keeping up to date with security updates I would have thought | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | yeah I tend to use GNOME with Konversation in there to | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | and in a distro that isn't Ubuntu to :) | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | so Mageia it would be, but this lap top uh! | Dec 25 13:56 |
| cubexyz | well I still update Unix v5 from 1974 so old stuff doesn't bother me | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | and I been foucssing on other stuff to, so not set up for that erason to properly yet | Dec 25 13:56 |
| cubexyz | new stuff can often be overly elaborate | Dec 25 13:56 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: maybe I should put a Trinity distro on though :) | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I liked KDE 3 as well | Dec 25 13:57 |
| cubexyz | try it and form your own opinion | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | I plan to multi boot it with a few distros, but | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | thing is I got Windodws on here 10 yes | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | and | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | Windows 8.10 upgraded to Windows 10 | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | 8.1 | Dec 25 13:57 |
| schestowitz | I might try unity next | Dec 25 13:57 |
| schestowitz | with lightdm | Dec 25 13:57 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah it's okish actsaully Unity | Dec 25 13:57 |
| schestowitz | (like some n00b) | Dec 25 13:57 |
| schestowitz | but KDE is broken (the latest builds) | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: well I would have been really bored of this Unity now that's in Ubuntu desktop if I had been using for years, but | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: for the occasioanl useage why not | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | Unity on Ubuntu Touch though is quite nice | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | Unity 8 | Dec 25 13:58 |
| schestowitz | cya in a bit ( hope) | Dec 25 13:58 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 13:58 | |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: one more release with this old Unity that Ubuntu has on computers now it seems Ubuntu 16.04 LTS and then Ubuntu on the desktop wwill go Unithy 8 to it seems | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | and he's gone already | Dec 25 13:58 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: surely Trintiy lags behind security updates | Dec 25 13:59 |
| cubexyz | ok, you may recall my thoughts on FC1? | Dec 25 13:59 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: isn't quite as up to date as it should be with certain packages, konversation for example | Dec 25 13:59 |
| cubexyz | about how I fix the security stuff myself? :) | Dec 25 13:59 |
| sebsebseb | well yeah | Dec 25 13:59 |
| sebsebseb | ,but would I? probably not really so | Dec 25 13:59 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: still could be fun to have a pshyicall install of a Trinity distro or too on here to | Dec 25 14:00 |
| sebsebseb | I am keeping a pshyicall install of Ubuntu on here, but only really since Unity | Dec 25 14:00 |
| sebsebseb | Unity is like the only proper reason to use Ubuntu at the moment on a normal computer really | Dec 25 14:00 |
| sebsebseb | since other distro's can do like pretty much everything else :) | Dec 25 14:00 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: have you stll got FEdora Core 1? | Dec 25 14:01 |
| cubexyz | I do | Dec 25 14:01 |
| sebsebseb | oh | Dec 25 14:01 |
| cubexyz | it's been running since 2004 | Dec 25 14:01 |
| sebsebseb | heh | Dec 25 14:01 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh interesting: Exe GNU/Linux originates from Exmouth in South West England. It was first made for local use but now includes Spanish support since some of the development was done in Las Palmas, Gran Canaria. | Dec 25 14:03 |
| cubexyz | here's some desktop pics: | Dec 25 14:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/desktop | Dec 25 14:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.maxhost.org | Index of /other/desktop | Dec 25 14:04 | |
| *sebsebseb is from South West England and I have had a holiday in Gran Canaria before as well :0 | Dec 25 14:04 | |
| sebsebseb | :) at end | Dec 25 14:04 |
| cubexyz | FC1 was retro-fitted with KDE 3.4.2 but I got tired updating it | Dec 25 14:04 |
| cubexyz | so it's still KDE 3.4.2 now | Dec 25 14:05 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:05 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/desktop/fc1-upgraded-desktop-2010.png | Dec 25 14:05 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: KDE 3 is in the social network as well | Dec 25 14:05 |
| sebsebseb | that's a good film :) | Dec 25 14:06 |
| cubexyz | I'm still learning new things about FC1 12 years later | Dec 25 14:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh such as? | Dec 25 14:07 |
| cubexyz | shellshock... had to switch to ash for the server instead of bash to run certain scripts | Dec 25 14:08 |
| cubexyz | but I also patched bash 2.04 | Dec 25 14:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh the security issue you mean? | Dec 25 14:08 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 14:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah there's a computer that's still vunverble to that, that I should upgrade really, but haven't yet | Dec 25 14:09 |
| sebsebseb | a distro re install later version | Dec 25 14:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: forgot both passwords so, root and user account | Dec 25 14:09 |
| sebsebseb | and I coudn't remember how to do it from a LIve CD re setting | Dec 25 14:09 |
| cubexyz | so I have special builds for rtorrent and git | Dec 25 14:09 |
| cubexyz | but there's no big problem adding stuff | Dec 25 14:09 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 14:10 |
| cubexyz | Fc1 had the longest running X session out of any OS | Dec 25 14:10 |
| sebsebseb | oh? | Dec 25 14:10 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 14:10 |
| cubexyz | tested for over 10 years in total | Dec 25 14:10 |
| sebsebseb | lasted you mean? | Dec 25 14:10 |
| cubexyz | I think it had the least memory leaks | Dec 25 14:10 |
| sebsebseb | without a re boot | Dec 25 14:11 |
| sebsebseb | ? | Dec 25 14:11 |
| cubexyz | that's right | Dec 25 14:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah your a proper nerd/geek you, I am not :d | Dec 25 14:11 |
| cubexyz | not 10 years though... more like 420+ days (so far) | Dec 25 14:11 |
| sebsebseb | long time still | Dec 25 14:11 |
| cubexyz | utility power was the problem, not X | Dec 25 14:11 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 14:11 |
| sebsebseb | oh you had a power cut you mean heh? | Dec 25 14:11 |
| cubexyz | the UPS is only good for 40 mins | Dec 25 14:12 |
| cubexyz | so if I have a power failure longer than that it shutdowns | Dec 25 14:12 |
| sebsebseb | the UPS? | Dec 25 14:12 |
| sebsebseb | US Post Service :d | Dec 25 14:12 |
| sebsebseb | ,but no your eaning something else hmm | Dec 25 14:12 |
| sebsebseb | meaning | Dec 25 14:12 |
| cubexyz | Uninterruptable Power Supply | Dec 25 14:12 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 14:12 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: First of all I suggest that you always include the version number when you write or think "KDE". Otherwise you are buying into the idea that whatever the plasma saboteurs are currently putting out is the "real" KDE. It isn't. I'm still using KDE3.5.10 and it's fast and runs KDE4 apps. | Dec 25 14:12 |
| cubexyz | I also made other changes to the case to improve reliability | Dec 25 14:13 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: KDE 3.5.10 in what? | Dec 25 14:13 |
| msb__ | Suse Linux 11.4 | Dec 25 14:14 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: hmm so your running old stuff to not just cubexyz | Dec 25 14:14 |
| sebsebseb | but not as old as him heh | Dec 25 14:14 |
| cubexyz | I run Unix v5, that's pretty old | Dec 25 14:14 |
| XRevan86 | It seems like only I am using new stuff around %). | Dec 25 14:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: I am | Dec 25 14:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: as well | Dec 25 14:14 |
| sebsebseb | anyway all KDE's are old now, unless it's KDE 5 :D | Dec 25 14:15 |
| sebsebseb | heh | Dec 25 14:15 |
| schestowitz | gnome3 is a TOY | Dec 25 14:16 |
| schestowitz | WTF? | Dec 25 14:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/computer-longevity.txt | Dec 25 14:16 |
| schestowitz | no virtual desktops even? | Dec 25 14:16 |
| cubexyz | check out the section on hard drives :) | Dec 25 14:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: is that your opinion? sounds like soething people put in articles | Dec 25 14:16 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Virtual desktops are in the "menu" | Dec 25 14:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: I think there are virtual desktops just a little tricky to find maybe, I am not on GNOME 3 Shell right now | Dec 25 14:16 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 14:16 |
| schestowitz | let me see... | Dec 25 14:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: it's also a version behind upstream in Ubuntu | Dec 25 14:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mageia 6 is actsaully going to have the latest upstream GNOME when it's released in like end of April or May, :) | Dec 25 14:17 |
| cubexyz | don't succumb to upgradeotoesis :) | Dec 25 14:17 |
| sebsebseb | Fedora is apparnatly going Wayland soon | Dec 25 14:17 |
| sebsebseb | full wayland | Dec 25 14:17 |
| sebsebseb | not just the log in screen | Dec 25 14:17 |
| XRevan86 | http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GNOME-Shell-3.10.png | Dec 25 14:18 |
| sebsebseb | apaprnatly they already use Wayland for the log in screen | Dec 25 14:18 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 14:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what do you mean? | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | mindless upgrading | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | upgrading for no reason | Dec 25 14:18 |
| schestowitz | windows with just one button, the close button | Dec 25 14:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nah things need to go forward | Dec 25 14:18 |
| schestowitz | it's like Linux 1.0 | Dec 25 14:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: if we are talking Ubbuntu though, well then sure t he last few releases have been just mindless upgrades really | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, have you ever talked to a cobbler? | Dec 25 14:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: releases because they had to have a release | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | some of them use machines from the 1920s | Dec 25 14:19 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: How do you know q4os doesn't use systemd? I can't find a decent description of it, it's based on debian, and there's nobody in #q4os. | Dec 25 14:19 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what's a cobbler? | Dec 25 14:19 |
| cubexyz | ugh.. ok :) | Dec 25 14:19 |
| schestowitz | no pager... | Dec 25 14:19 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Even if it does, one can always make it not. | Dec 25 14:19 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 14:19 |
| cubexyz | first of all, I use q4os so I know 100% it doesn't use systemd | Dec 25 14:19 |
| cubexyz | secondly a cobbler is a person who makes shoes :) | Dec 25 14:19 |
| sebsebseb | thirdly cubexyz is a old guy, who uses old tech :d | Dec 25 14:20 |
| cubexyz | I'm not that old :) | Dec 25 14:20 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: how old are you? | Dec 25 14:20 |
| cubexyz | I turned 50 this year | Dec 25 14:21 |
| sebsebseb | yep your getting old now heh | Dec 25 14:21 |
| sebsebseb | starting to | Dec 25 14:21 |
| msb__ | I turned 70. | Dec 25 14:21 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: are you really 70? | Dec 25 14:21 |
| schestowitz | [19:19] <sebsebseb> schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 14:21 |
| schestowitz | gnome 3.0 | Dec 25 14:21 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 14:21 |
| msb__ | I take a lot of vitamins and hope. | Dec 25 14:21 |
| schestowitz | there's a flavour they call "flashback" | Dec 25 14:21 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME Shell is modern look :) same for Unity really | Dec 25 14:21 |
| schestowitz | but it feels like ubuntu in 2004 | Dec 25 14:22 |
| schestowitz | this one is even more primitive, lots of stuff missing | Dec 25 14:22 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME 3 doesnt' feel like Ubuntu in 2004, or you mean flashback? | Dec 25 14:22 |
| cubexyz | msb knows LINC-8 :))) | Dec 25 14:22 |
| schestowitz | I just need some usable env in which to run my software | Dec 25 14:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Mate | Dec 25 14:22 |
| msb__ | Hell, I worked on a LINC. | Dec 25 14:22 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Not flavour, GNOME Flashback is GNOME + gnome-panel, metacity, etc. | Dec 25 14:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Fedora Core 1 maybe if cubexyz sets up for you :d | Dec 25 14:23 |
| XRevan86 | although that depends on what you define as flavour :) | Dec 25 14:23 |
| schestowitz | I can't stop klipper here | Dec 25 14:23 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, don't worry, I own some newer technology | Dec 25 14:23 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: heh such as? | Dec 25 14:23 |
| schestowitz | a deal breaker, iirc glipper uses mono | Dec 25 14:23 |
| cubexyz | I even use LCDs sometimes :) | Dec 25 14:23 |
| cubexyz | I own a chromebook, that was 2015 technology | Dec 25 14:24 |
| cubexyz | it's hard to be a one-man distro maintainer | Dec 25 14:25 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ok ,but Chrome has such a basic interface etc | Dec 25 14:25 |
| cubexyz | CRTs can last a long time. Not sure how long my LCDs will last | Dec 25 14:25 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: LCDs can last a long time as well. | Dec 25 14:27 |
| cubexyz | I know a guy who drives a 1960s truck still | Dec 25 14:27 |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: was trying to install trinity, which I doubted would be in the repo | Dec 25 14:27 |
| schestowitz | no tirinity-desktop | Dec 25 14:27 |
| cubexyz | it's like driving in a museum :) | Dec 25 14:27 |
| schestowitz | and trinity, as it turned out, is some obscure CLI program | Dec 25 14:27 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Yeah, Trinity is not in repos. | Dec 25 14:28 |
| schestowitz | i wouldn't expect it to | Dec 25 14:28 |
| XRevan86 | and MATE is | Dec 25 14:28 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: See? | Dec 25 14:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I ; | Dec 25 14:28 |
| schestowitz | what alternative is there to plasma that's good a lot of features? | Dec 25 14:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I put earlier, Trinity isn't in any of the commonly known distors | Dec 25 14:28 |
| schestowitz | is there a plasma-less KDE? | Dec 25 14:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: razorqt maybee? | Dec 25 14:28 |
| schestowitz | openbox? | Dec 25 14:28 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, did you see my special windows 10 pic? | Dec 25 14:29 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nope | Dec 25 14:29 |
| schestowitz | ah, yes, razorqt, haven't heard of it in a while | Dec 25 14:29 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: trinity is just a fork of KDE3.5.10 You get it from here: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 25 14:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ ) | Dec 25 14:29 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Well, because razor-qt was superseded by LXQt. | Dec 25 14:29 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/shouldnt-have-used-windows-10.jpg | Dec 25 14:29 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah razor-qt is repalced by LXQT | Dec 25 14:29 |
| XRevan86 | where last "t" is lower-case :) | Dec 25 14:30 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 14:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- ( status 404 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png ) | Dec 25 14:30 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: schestowitz XRevan86 msb__ Windows 10's best feauture seriously, guess what it is :) | Dec 25 14:30 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 14:30 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Bugs to graw people to GNU/Linux? | Dec 25 14:30 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: heh maybe, but no that's the wrong answer :) | Dec 25 14:31 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I recommend that you backup and check all of your data. Then choose a distro from here: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page | Dec 25 14:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 25 14:31 | |
| XRevan86 | * http://maxhost.org/other/hey-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 14:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: dunno, there are so many great features there | Dec 25 14:31 |
| scientes | schestowitz, Merry Christmas | Dec 25 14:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: malware/botnet functionality, keylogger, backdoor for software uninstallation, spying on your kids | Dec 25 14:31 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Black panel? | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | malware-like "upgrade" pushing from earlier versions | Dec 25 14:32 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: MinceR cubexyz XRevan86 schestowitz why do some people have such a issue with SystemD I don't really understand, and I don't really care what a distro uses to boot itself up with, as long as it works and is fast enough :) | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | ads in start menu | Dec 25 14:32 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yep maybe, but wrong answer again :d | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: unfortunately cancerd is not just an init system | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: it's an operating system | Dec 25 14:32 |
| sebsebseb | cancerd ??? what's that | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | without a good service manager, init system, or anything | Dec 25 14:32 |
| cubexyz | systemd is anti-unix | Dec 25 14:32 |
| MinceR | same as systemd | Dec 25 14:32 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: Because it's probably systemd that's messing up your computer. Choose a non-systemd distro that has a trinity distribution for it. | Dec 25 14:32 |
| cubexyz | that's the reason I don't like systemd | Dec 25 14:32 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: well it gets rid of the old init thing yes | Dec 25 14:33 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but who needs that really these days? | Dec 25 14:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: It's objectively not. | Dec 25 14:33 |
| cubexyz | people should be able to use whatever init system they want | Dec 25 14:33 |
| cubexyz | not forced into systemd | Dec 25 14:33 |
| sebsebseb | who cares as long as it boots and works as I put earlier basically :) | Dec 25 14:33 |
| msb__ | XRevan86: what is not? | Dec 25 14:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: schestowitz issues are not systemd-related. | Dec 25 14:33 |
| MinceR | cancerd and its dependents are designed to take away the users' freedom to choose their init system | Dec 25 14:33 |
| MinceR | (and for many other things too) | Dec 25 14:34 |
| sebsebseb | what's cancerd? or is that a joke? | Dec 25 14:34 |
| msb__ | sebsebseb: systemd is not working for schestowitz. | Dec 25 14:34 |
| sebsebseb | cancer? | Dec 25 14:34 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 14:34 | |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 14:34 | |
| cubexyz | I think MinceR means that "cancerd" is eating Linux from the inside like a cancer | Dec 25 14:34 |
| msb__ | XRevan86: systemd is so complicated now that nobody can know wtf it is doing. | Dec 25 14:34 |
| cubexyz | taking over more and more functions... | Dec 25 14:34 |
| sebsebseb | yep | Dec 25 14:35 |
| sebsebseb | yep systemd does things that old stuff did before | Dec 25 14:35 |
| sebsebseb | that's the idea | Dec 25 14:35 |
| sebsebseb | apparnatly may not work so well with Unixes to, and so is more of a LInux thing, but again so be it I guess | Dec 25 14:35 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: So if KDE Plasma crashed, blame systemd? | Dec 25 14:35 |
| sebsebseb | Linux wss never Unix anyway, it's just Unix like, most LInux distros | Dec 25 14:35 |
| cubexyz | don't use Plasma :) | Dec 25 14:35 |
| MinceR | apparently everything is "old stuff" that is not broken enough to require monthly updates | Dec 25 14:36 |
| cubexyz | yes but some old stuff is rather good... | Dec 25 14:36 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: I don't :) | Dec 25 14:36 |
| sebsebseb | some old stuff is rather good, yep such as cubexyz :d | Dec 25 14:36 |
| MinceR | also, apparently the definition of "modern" is overcomplicated, undesigned crap code | Dec 25 14:36 |
| msb__ | It's best not to use systemd or plasma. | Dec 25 14:36 |
| MinceR | with as much bloat as they can muster | Dec 25 14:36 |
| MinceR | or gnome | Dec 25 14:37 |
| sebsebseb | Windows 10 | Dec 25 14:37 |
| cubexyz | All I'm saying is... is use the init system you want | Dec 25 14:37 |
| cubexyz | I'm not saying use one specific init system | Dec 25 14:37 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: are you just talking code with those comments, or do you mean the feuatres that users see to? | Dec 25 14:37 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: both the code and the "features" that are used to sell it | Dec 25 14:37 |
| MinceR | like binary logging, which is braindead | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | some programs can have well to many features really yes | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | never going to use all those features | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | especially the way cancerd does it | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | graphics design programs are one such example for most people | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | especially in pid1, where any of those "features" may break your system | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | so people who get Photoshop to do basic stuff are silly really | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | in a way that's difficult to recover from | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | for no reason | Dec 25 14:38 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Firefox leaks. I was thinking it's addons, but maybe it's systemd, eh? :) | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | photoshop sucks | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yep | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | it's full of bugs | Dec 25 14:38 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: but it's very popular, since the main streame don't know much else | Dec 25 14:38 |
| MinceR | which is to be expected from the idiots at adobe | Dec 25 14:39 |
| XRevan86 | systemd does everything, so maybe it does JS leaking in Firefox as well? | Dec 25 14:39 |
| MinceR | it will surely include a browser eventually | Dec 25 14:39 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well they can't make one version too good, since the idea is to sell new versions | Dec 25 14:39 |
| MinceR | systemd-emacsd | Dec 25 14:39 |
| sebsebseb | systemd with a brwoser hmm | Dec 25 14:39 |
| sebsebseb | a web browser? | Dec 25 14:39 |
| cubexyz | ask yourself why is microsoft forcing windows 7 users to upgrade to windows 10? | Dec 25 14:39 |
| MinceR | though i don't know if that will happen first or running systemd in kernel mode | Dec 25 14:39 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: since they want everyone on the same Windows version fro now on or pretty much | Dec 25 14:40 |
| XRevan86 | leechcraftd? | Dec 25 14:40 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Windows 10 is Windows for many years now | Dec 25 14:40 |
| MinceR | so the propaganda says | Dec 25 14:40 |
| sebsebseb | they made it so could downgrade to the odl version, but then after 30 days stopped that from happenign uh! | Dec 25 14:40 |
| sebsebseb | also if have upgraded you can't just re install it | Dec 25 14:40 |
| sebsebseb | unless you made recovery media yourself, something I didn't do | Dec 25 14:40 |
| sebsebseb | I think I might have a virus in my 10 install or some sort of malware so uhmm | Dec 25 14:41 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, I have some win95 customers still :) | Dec 25 14:41 |
| msb__ | Firefox remembers where each of your tabs has been so you can backtrack. Eventually that uses up noticeable memory. Just kill and restart Firefox every couple of days (if you have hundreds of tabs open like I do). | Dec 25 14:41 |
| cubexyz | that's what they want | Dec 25 14:41 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what do they want? | Dec 25 14:41 |
| MinceR | sometimes it doesn't remember where my tabs were | Dec 25 14:42 |
| MinceR | it has jumped the shark | Dec 25 14:42 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Nah, it's JS that is leaking, so about:memory says. | Dec 25 14:42 |
| cubexyz | they want win95 :) | Dec 25 14:42 |
| XRevan86 | meaning that apparently some addon makes objects, and makes objects, and makes objects… | Dec 25 14:42 |
| cubexyz | I never said it was logical... but that is that | Dec 25 14:42 |
| msb__ | MinceR: Is your firefox up to date? Mine never forgets where my tabs were when I restart it. | Dec 25 14:43 |
| MinceR | no, it's debian stable | Dec 25 14:43 |
| MinceR | i mean, 7 | Dec 25 14:43 |
| MinceR | though i updated recently, maybe it sucks less now | Dec 25 14:43 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so uhmm how many imigrants are in Hungary now :d | Dec 25 14:44 |
| MinceR | maybe i'll move to Pale Moon or xombrero or both | Dec 25 14:44 |
| MinceR | probably not many | Dec 25 14:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: what did you think of htem closing the border a few months back too | Dec 25 14:44 |
| msb__ | MinceR: I suggest installing firefox in your account and keeping it up to date. | Dec 25 14:44 |
| MinceR | any immigrant with at least one brain cells wants to go to germany, not this shithole | Dec 25 14:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: indeed Germany or Sweden | Dec 25 14:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: or UK even if they can get across the channel | Dec 25 14:44 |
| sebsebseb | the sea | Dec 25 14:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: do you think it was right for them to put the wall up? | Dec 25 14:45 |
| sebsebseb | block acess I mean | Dec 25 14:45 |
| cubexyz | Europeans seem to like Linux more | Dec 25 14:45 |
| cubexyz | and South Americans | Dec 25 14:46 |
| MinceR | not the way they did it | Dec 25 14:46 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why not? | Dec 25 14:46 |
| MinceR | their approach is totally wrong | Dec 25 14:46 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: mainland Europe you mean like Germans and such? UK is very Apple and Microsoft infected! | Dec 25 14:46 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why do you think that? | Dec 25 14:46 |
| cubexyz | and the United States of course... is very pro-Apple and pro-Microsoft | Dec 25 14:46 |
| MinceR | instead of spouting nationalist, xenophobic propaganda and putting up some shitty half-fence that they won't guard and don't have the legal basis to operat | Dec 25 14:46 |
| MinceR | they should have worked with the EU to set up quotas | Dec 25 14:47 |
| MinceR | and if necessary, build a proper fence with people who know how to do that, set up the legal basis for operating it (though this would be part of setting up quotas, really), and guard it | Dec 25 14:47 |
| sebsebseb | yeah maybe | Dec 25 14:47 |
| MinceR | also, the fence probably shouldn't even be here | Dec 25 14:47 |
| msb__ | Have you folks heard about the US chief of the JCS and head of the DIA sharing intelligence on Syria, ISIL, Turkey, etc, with Assad? | Dec 25 14:47 |
| MinceR | the refugees entered the EU well before | Dec 25 14:47 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: nope | Dec 25 14:48 |
| MinceR | then again, maybe not the Schengen region | Dec 25 14:48 |
| sebsebseb | that was for msb__ nope | Dec 25 14:48 |
| msb__ | http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-22/seymour-hersh-bombshell-us-military-shared-intelligence-assad-defiance-obama-cia | Dec 25 14:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.zerohedge.com | Seymour Hersh Bombshell: US Military Shared Intelligence With Assad In Defiance Of Obama, CIA | Zero Hedge | Dec 25 14:48 | |
| sebsebseb | msb__: yeah Schengen makes it rather easy for them to move around there | Dec 25 14:48 |
| msb__ | http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military | Dec 25 14:48 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: UK is not part of it so instead loads of imigrants in Calai hoping to get across the sea | Dec 25 14:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.lrb.co.uk | Seymour M. Hersh · Military to Military · LRB 7 January 2016 [ http://ur1.ca/ocytp ] | Dec 25 14:48 | |
| sebsebseb | uh for MinceR the last two | Dec 25 14:49 |
| msb__ | Sy Hersh is a very famous journalist. | Dec 25 14:49 |
| *sebsebseb is going to Brussels in a few weeks | Dec 25 14:49 | |
| sebsebseb | maybe something will happen there hmm | Dec 25 14:49 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:49 | |
| schestowitz | on razorqt for 10 mins now | Dec 25 14:50 |
| schestowitz | still trying to get klipper going on it | Dec 25 14:50 |
| sebsebseb | razorqt went bye bye and got replaced by LXQT though | Dec 25 14:50 |
| sebsebseb | so it's old school like cubexyz :d | Dec 25 14:50 |
| schestowitz | ok, let's carry on the shuffle | Dec 25 14:50 |
| MinceR | every day i'm shufflin' | Dec 25 14:51 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: the Ipod Shuffle? :d | Dec 25 14:51 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yeah with your secret Apple device | Dec 25 14:51 |
| schestowitz | i used lxde but not lxqt | Dec 25 14:51 |
| msb__ | Those top US military guys can't understand why the US has knocked off two secular leaders in the ME -- Saddam and Kadaffi -- and is working on removing a third -- Assad. It's as if the US administration wants Islamic head-choppers/clit-cutters to take over the whole ME. | Dec 25 14:51 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yes LXDE is stil there for now | Dec 25 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I liked the way FC1 did LKMs | Dec 25 14:52 |
| sebsebseb | ,,bbut that might go bye bye to it sems or whatever it was | Dec 25 14:52 |
| cubexyz | didn't like the new way... what else is new | Dec 25 14:52 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: most media players can do it without crApple crap | Dec 25 14:52 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 14:53 | |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:53 | |
| cubexyz | I spent years reconfiguring stuff in vector so I'm reluctant to move to a newer distro so I did what I usually do... | Dec 25 14:54 |
| cubexyz | set up a different computer to try a new distro | Dec 25 14:54 |
| schestowitz_log | back on plasma | Dec 25 14:54 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: I found out that mplayer can play videos and TV in the Ctrl-Alt-Fn text consoles. It uses fbdev. | Dec 25 14:55 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:56 | |
| MinceR | technically, X runs on such a console too :> | Dec 25 14:56 |
| MinceR | just not in text mode | Dec 25 14:56 |
| schestowitz_log | my qt settings got overridden | Dec 25 14:56 |
| schestowitz_log | so even plasma got ugly | Dec 25 14:56 |
| MinceR | (though i'm told linux tends to use fake text mode anyway) | Dec 25 14:56 |
| cubexyz | it's not really a text console though... it's just a separate video mode | Dec 25 14:56 |
| cubexyz | MDA was true text | Dec 25 14:56 |
| MinceR | vga could do it too | Dec 25 14:57 |
| schestowitz | I think I'm stuck, it's the base that's broken, every DE/WM started with little ram left free | Dec 25 14:57 |
| cubexyz | yes, I think FreeDOS and MSDOS could use that | Dec 25 14:57 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: did you try KDE 5 in something? | Dec 25 14:57 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: But it's not X. That's what surprised me. X was frozen up at the time. | Dec 25 14:58 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it's not X but it's still a video mode | Dec 25 14:58 |
| MinceR | well, there was also SVGALib | Dec 25 14:58 |
| MinceR | for example | Dec 25 14:58 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: msb__ cubexyz schestowitz Oh yeah what do you all think of Blackberry? | Dec 25 14:59 |
| cubexyz | you can shutdown X completely and still use radeonfb or something like that | Dec 25 14:59 |
| MinceR | not much | Dec 25 14:59 |
| msb__ | It said it was using fbdev. | Dec 25 14:59 |
| MinceR | i guess if they embrace android, they might still have a chance to survive | Dec 25 14:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yes they are now it seems | Dec 25 14:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a new phone, that has Android on it now with some blackberry changes, it's expensive | Dec 25 14:59 |
| MinceR | i'm weaned off physical phone keyboards though | Dec 25 14:59 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it uses whatever framebuffer your video card supports | Dec 25 14:59 |
| cubexyz | it can be a bunch of different ones | Dec 25 15:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why don't you like pshhycall phone keyboards? | Dec 25 15:00 |
| MinceR | note ii virtual keyboard > n97 physical keyboard | Dec 25 15:00 |
| MinceR | they tend to come with non-monoblock form factors | Dec 25 15:00 |
| MinceR | which makes them easy to drop and difficult to cover with a case | Dec 25 15:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I kind of was thinking of buying a cheap blackberry phone maybe, but only since I haven't really done anything with there OS, yes I know it's a bit of a failure and such | Dec 25 15:00 |
| MinceR | they also usually skimp on number keys | Dec 25 15:00 |
| <--schestowitz_log has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 15:00 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 15:00 | |
| MinceR | which is not good for my on-the-go note taking | Dec 25 15:00 |
| MinceR | and on a 5.5" capacitive touchscreen virtual keyboard turned out to work pretty well | Dec 25 15:01 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a cheapish newer blackbetrry phone without the keyboad | Dec 25 15:01 |
| MinceR | they still use OLED display though, don't they? | Dec 25 15:01 |
| <--trn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 25 15:01 | |
| cubexyz | tech should be repairable | Dec 25 15:02 |
| MinceR | and yet it isn't | Dec 25 15:02 |
| cubexyz | Ipads rank as one of the least repairable devices ever made | Dec 25 15:02 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a new phone, that has Android on it now with some blackberry changes, it's expensive | Dec 25 15:02 |
| MinceR | hypePads are crippled devices | Dec 25 15:03 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: the Priv? | Dec 25 15:03 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: the prvi and classi are to expensive really | Dec 25 15:03 |
| sebsebseb | if just geting for the OS mainly | Dec 25 15:03 |
| sebsebseb | so that leaves this one then: http://uk.blackberry.com/smartphones/blackberry-leap/overview.html | Dec 25 15:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-uk.blackberry.com | BlackBerry Leap – New BlackBerry smartphone with large HD screen - United Kingdom | Dec 25 15:03 | |
| cubexyz | Dell XPS 10 and Kindle Fire ranked much higher for repairablility | Dec 25 15:03 |
| MinceR | also, i don't like blackberry's FUD against android | Dec 25 15:03 |
| cubexyz | although I never actually got a XPS 10 | Dec 25 15:03 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: anything with a keyboard is expensie the pshyhcaill keyboard from blackberry it seems | Dec 25 15:04 |
| MinceR | they keep claiming it has no security or privacy and that they fixed that, but they don't back any of those statements with anything | Dec 25 15:04 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well there latest phone uses Andorid with the blackbettery changes as I said | Dec 25 15:04 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they have done ther security fixes in that | Dec 25 15:04 |
| MinceR | what "security fixes"? | Dec 25 15:04 |
| sebsebseb | whatever they think is security | Dec 25 15:04 |
| sebsebseb | see here hold on | Dec 25 15:04 |
| cubexyz | https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability | Dec 25 15:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ifixit.com | Tablet Repairability Scores - iFixit | Dec 25 15:04 | |
| MinceR | i don't like this "just trust us" mentality | Dec 25 15:05 |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:05 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 15:05 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:05 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: http://uk.blackberry.com/smartphones/priv-by-blackberry/specifications.html | Dec 25 15:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-uk.blackberry.com | PRIV by BlackBerry Specs – Specifications for Android BlackBerry Smartphone - United Kingdom [ http://ur1.ca/ocyu2 ] | Dec 25 15:05 | |
| schestowitz | what's the openbox shortcut for changing virtual desktop? | Dec 25 15:05 |
| schestowitz | not Fn | Dec 25 15:05 |
| schestowitz | I'm trying just plain openbox | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | at least it's light | Dec 25 15:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: MinceR I broke my ipaid air, a guy fixed, but it broke again, shoudl give him it back to fix | Dec 25 15:06 |
| MinceR | ctrl+Fn | Dec 25 15:06 |
| MinceR | i think | Dec 25 15:06 |
| cubexyz | ipaid :) | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | has no effect | Dec 25 15:06 |
| MinceR | or super+Fn | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | ah yes | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | thanks | Dec 25 15:06 |
| cubexyz | you sure did | Dec 25 15:06 |
| MinceR | np | Dec 25 15:06 |
| scientes | <MinceR> sebsebseb: unfortunately cancerd is not just an init system | Dec 25 15:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I got it cheap in Brussels last year, much cheaper than UK price | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | I might give this a try | Dec 25 15:06 |
| scientes | lol | Dec 25 15:06 |
| schestowitz | very light, not bad... | Dec 25 15:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I hadn't really done anything with iOS and wanted to so | Dec 25 15:07 |
| schestowitz | with xbindkeys I can start programs I commonly use | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: last year this year even | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | and MinceR loved me when I told him about that :d | Dec 25 15:07 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: there's nothing substantial on that page, just specs and empty claims | Dec 25 15:07 |
| cubexyz | oh and bottom ranked for repairability? Microsoft Surface Pro! | Dec 25 15:07 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft sucks again | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | the surface heh | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | well | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | I actsaully have something interesting | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | that may look like it the hardware, but | Dec 25 15:07 |
| MinceR | actually m$ never stopped sucking | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | acsaully it runs a customized Android OS | Dec 25 15:07 |
| sebsebseb | I have the Remix OS tablet, and the Remix Mini's as well :) | Dec 25 15:08 |
| cubexyz | hmmm | Dec 25 15:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I agree that tablets and such ideally should be more easilly repairable for users though | Dec 25 15:09 |
| cubexyz | how much is remix? | Dec 25 15:09 |
| -->schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:09 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but companeis want to sell devices that break after a while, so peole get new devices | Dec 25 15:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I crowd funded the Remix Mini this year | Dec 25 15:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which is basically a little box, stick in a TV or monitor, and you got a Android PC :) | Dec 25 15:09 |
| sebsebseb | with there customised OS based on Android | Dec 25 15:10 |
| cubexyz | it's not that I expect devices to last forever, I merely expect to be able to get parts and repair stuff | Dec 25 15:10 |
| sebsebseb | one of the perks was tto get the tablet from the pervious year to, so I did that | Dec 25 15:10 |
| sebsebseb | that's a nice Chiense tablet it seems | Dec 25 15:10 |
| sebsebseb | bigger than the ipad air to | Dec 25 15:10 |
| sebsebseb | screen wise | Dec 25 15:10 |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:10 | |
| cubexyz | also I need a REAL KEYBOARD | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | looks like the Microsoft Surface since it's got a attachable keyboard and such, but no this is Andoid | Dec 25 15:11 |
| cubexyz | not some membrane thing | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes it comes with there keyboard | Dec 25 15:11 |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest54378 | Dec 25 15:11 | |
| MinceR | "android PC", eh? when will it run X directly on the console? | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but using a ot2 device you can put in your own usb mouse keyboard, and external hard disks and so on even | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: o2g device above | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | comes with a good amount of storage space to internal the tablet, | Dec 25 15:11 |
| sebsebseb | was nice to acstaully receive something I havev crowd funded since last December :) | Dec 25 15:12 |
| sebsebseb | since I had issues with one to another tablet, since I was stupid enough to say to someone that I was going to possibly get the | Dec 25 15:12 |
| sebsebseb | patron perk | Dec 25 15:12 |
| sebsebseb | so he startd offering me, that at a discount, but.... | Dec 25 15:12 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes the Remix OS tablet can in many ways replace a desktkop PC, not completly of course though | Dec 25 15:13 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: and the Remix Mini is like having a Android PC a small thing | Dec 25 15:13 |
| sebsebseb | with there cusotmied OS based on Android started by three former Google employees | Dec 25 15:13 |
| cubexyz | remix looks a bit expensive | Dec 25 15:14 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah so some review said, but it's interesting what I got :) | Dec 25 15:14 |
| cubexyz | is that touch screen? | Dec 25 15:15 |
| sebsebseb | of cours it's touch screen it's a tablet, but if you got a o2g device that you plug into it | Dec 25 15:15 |
| sebsebseb | you can then use, a real USB mouse and keyboard, and other USB devices such as external hard disk even | Dec 25 15:15 |
| msb__ | I love some of Cher's old songs -- Dark Lady, Gypsies Tramps and Thieves, Half-Breed, Walking to Memphis. | Dec 25 15:15 |
| sebsebseb | I got one for my Meizu Phone :) | Dec 25 15:15 |
| sebsebseb | Ubuntu PHone | Dec 25 15:15 |
| sebsebseb | it's nice being able to use a real keyboard and mouse on that :) | Dec 25 15:16 |
| sebsebseb | no that's not hte convergence that's next year probably, when won't need a o2g device anymore | Dec 25 15:16 |
| sebsebseb | just connect to a montior and keyboard and mouse, and it turns into a desktop PC basically | Dec 25 15:16 |
| *sebsebseb waits for the bq convergence phone | Dec 25 15:16 | |
| sebsebseb | Firefox OS has had it | Dec 25 15:16 |
| sebsebseb | that's gone bye bye | Dec 25 15:16 |
| sebsebseb | as a phone OS | Dec 25 15:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/amigados-1.0.gif | Dec 25 15:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mozilla gave up, tehy should have targeted not just africa really with that to begin with I think. Jolla are sadly having compay issues, issues with an invester so not really sure what's going to hapepn there | Dec 25 15:17 |
| sebsebseb | so it seems the best bet at having a Linux based phone, that's not Android, at possily getting a bit more out there is yes Ubuntu Touch Phones | Dec 25 15:17 |
| sebsebseb | for now | Dec 25 15:18 |
| cubexyz | back in 1985 that was futuristic :) | Dec 25 15:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: your image yeah I guess so, now it looks classic | Dec 25 15:18 |
| cubexyz | just look at all that ram :) | Dec 25 15:19 |
| sebsebseb | where? | Dec 25 15:19 |
| sebsebseb | in the image? | Dec 25 15:19 |
| cubexyz | at the top | Dec 25 15:19 |
| cubexyz | 318144 free | Dec 25 15:19 |
| sebsebseb | oh | Dec 25 15:20 |
| cubexyz | well it was 30 years ago | Dec 25 15:20 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so you think a pshyicall keyboard, makes a phone to easy to drop? | Dec 25 15:23 |
| <--Guest54378 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 15:24 | |
| cubexyz | maybe if I could get replacement parts for a tablet and be actually able to take it apart and reassemble it... | Dec 25 15:26 |
| cubexyz | otherwise it seems like a bad idea | Dec 25 15:27 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which Remix tablet? or tabets in general? | Dec 25 15:27 |
| cubexyz | in general | Dec 25 15:27 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: you can take apart an ipad and so on if you know what your doing | Dec 25 15:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: but then you have to put in unoffical parts or whatever | Dec 25 15:28 |
| sebsebseb | it's not like a desktop I mean | Dec 25 15:28 |
| sebsebseb | where it's like set up in a way to be opended up if need be | Dec 25 15:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz can buy some offical parts | Dec 25 15:30 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: MinceR but yeah Apple makes an ipad be seen as a throw away device or replacement if hardware issues | Dec 25 15:31 |
| cubexyz | by Zaurus still works, that's 2002 era | Dec 25 15:31 |
| cubexyz | don't use it much though | Dec 25 15:31 |
| cubexyz | s/by/my/ | Dec 25 15:31 |
| msb__ | I thought you were swearing by the god Zaurus | Dec 25 15:32 |
| cubexyz | didn't know there was one :) | Dec 25 15:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: a non-monoblock phone is easy to drop | Dec 25 15:33 |
| MinceR | (slide, clamshell, whatever) | Dec 25 15:33 |
| MinceR | i've dropped all my non-monoblock phones and i've never dropped my monoblock phones | Dec 25 15:33 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: what do you mean by mnoblock? | Dec 25 15:33 |
| cubexyz | well there's always smart watches | Dec 25 15:33 |
| MinceR | no major moving parts | Dec 25 15:34 |
| MinceR | one unit | Dec 25 15:34 |
| MinceR | no hinge, no slide, no flip, no clamshell | Dec 25 15:34 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so a phone with a pshyicall keyboard is a monoblock phone or isn't? | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | could be either | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | but monoblock phones with full keyboard are rare | Dec 25 15:35 |
| cubexyz | clay tablets are durable :) | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | blackberry is most notable for those | Dec 25 15:35 |
| cubexyz | also monoblock | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | nokia had a few | Dec 25 15:35 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: ok so a blackberry phone with a pshy8icall keyboard, more likely to drop that? | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | htc had a lot of slider (non-monoblock) phones with full keyboard | Dec 25 15:35 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: no, an ordinary blackberry phone, where the keyboard is under the display, i wouldn't be likely to drop that | Dec 25 15:36 |
| MinceR | but if i have to slide it out (like on the Priv), it's more likely | Dec 25 15:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: the priv is to expensive, and I am not interested if it's Andorid with there changes | Dec 25 15:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I already got a customised actusal proper Android OS, yes Remix OS see earlier | Dec 25 15:37 |
| sebsebseb | if I am buying blackberry anything | Dec 25 15:37 |
| sebsebseb | its' for there OS | Dec 25 15:37 |
| sebsebseb | but it seems meant to have a pshyicall keyboard really for the like blackberry expericne or sort of, but on the leap would be ok without to hmm | Dec 25 15:37 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: can't run Blackberry OS on a Nexus that easilly I guess? or maybe can, but I don't have one of those anyway | Dec 25 15:38 |
| MinceR | if i were to buy a phone now, i'd buy an LG V10 | Dec 25 15:38 |
| *sebsebseb likes trying differnet OS's | Dec 25 15:38 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well I been using my Meizu MX 4 Ubuntu Phone as my phone for a few months now | Dec 25 15:38 |
| sebsebseb | since having that | Dec 25 15:38 |
| sebsebseb | sadly I actsually lost my BQ phone back in July :( | Dec 25 15:38 |
| sebsebseb | after travelling | Dec 25 15:38 |
| sebsebseb | on the house drive ah! | Dec 25 15:39 |
| sebsebseb | at like 5am | Dec 25 15:39 |
| -->trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:39 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I have a Jolla phone to, and cheap Firefxo OS | Dec 25 15:39 |
| sebsebseb | a old Andorid old nokia around, not using htose | Dec 25 15:39 |
| sebsebseb | the world has changed OS's are more so about mobile now to, that's phones and tablets | Dec 25 15:40 |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 15:40 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 15:40 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/680488392719613952 | Dec 25 15:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: @schestowitz I went with Awesome WM. Tiling is damn good | Dec 25 15:44 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/680489861518852101 | Dec 25 15:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I use #openbox with LXDE @schestowitz Leafpad text editor and PCManFM file manager. Useful stuff. Mix and match Gnome and KDE apps with that | Dec 25 15:48 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:12 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest67910 | Dec 25 16:13 | |
| schestowitz | merry xmas, Guest67910/ daemonfc | Dec 25 16:24 |
| <--scientes has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 16:34 | |
| msb__ | On August 31, 1994, just a few weeks after the Cranberries' song Zombie was released, the IRA declared a ceasefire after 25 years of conflict, leading some critics of The Cranberries to wonder if the IRA was willing to call a truce to make sure the group didn't release any more songs about them. | Dec 25 16:46 |
| msb__ | The power of music! | Dec 25 16:46 |
| schestowitz | so far openbox works ok for me | Dec 25 16:52 |
| schestowitz | I don't need panels and other widgets | Dec 25 16:52 |
| schestowitz | unnecessary bloat when I use xbindkeys | Dec 25 16:52 |
| msb__ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts | Dec 25 16:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | The Cranberries - Zombie - YouTube | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 25 17:01 | |
| <--trn has quit (Quit: quit) | Dec 25 17:10 | |
| -->trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:14 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 17:23 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:24 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 17:24 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:24 | |
| schestowitz | http://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/trinity | Dec 25 17:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-community.linuxmint.com | trinity - Linux Mint Community | Dec 25 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | "As 'fuzz testing' suggests, trinity calls syscalls at random, with random arguments. where trinity differs is that the arguments it passes are not purely random." | Dec 25 17:41 |
| schestowitz | Oh, crap, I ran that | Dec 25 17:41 |
| schestowitz | And that's why I now have lots of crap files in my homedir | Dec 25 17:42 |
| <--tessier has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 25 17:53 | |
| -->tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:54 | |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 25 17:54 | |
| msb__ | Create a junk directory, move all the crap files into it. Go into that dir and make sure only junk files are in there. Then delete them from inside that directory. | Dec 25 18:04 |
| msb__ | I will seek a patent for that safe-delete method from the EPO. | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | OK, cleaned it up | Dec 25 18:14 |
| schestowitz | deleted by inode | Dec 25 18:15 |
| schestowitz | what a mess | Dec 25 18:15 |
| schestowitz | never ran the program called trinity | Dec 25 18:15 |
| schestowitz | or risk leaving a mess on your system | Dec 25 18:15 |
| cubexyz | could be worse | Dec 25 18:19 |
| cubexyz | you could have a windows 10 laptop :) | Dec 25 18:19 |
| schestowitz | heh | Dec 25 18:20 |
| schestowitz | Seen one | Dec 25 18:20 |
| schestowitz | wife's cousin | Dec 25 18:20 |
| schestowitz | didn't even touch or look at it | Dec 25 18:20 |
| schestowitz | I just said, put linux on it, then I'd have a look | Dec 25 18:21 |
| <--Guest67910 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 25 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing:Memory_Usage_Problems | Dec 25 18:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.mozilla.org | Thunderbird:Testing:Memory Usage Problems - MozillaWiki | Dec 25 18:34 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | If Thunderbird memory usage is more than expected by hundreds of megabytes (MB), then perhaps one or more folders (internally a database) are not being closed, or some other bug. Please : | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | Get a diagnostic log of Thunderbird activity with MSGDB:5,timestamp using logging instructions. | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | File a bug, then edit the new bug and attach the zipped log file using "Add an attachment". | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | I think I have had this issue for 2 years | Dec 25 18:34 |
| schestowitz | after a hard drive failure | Dec 25 18:34 |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 18:37 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest10666 | Dec 25 18:37 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I don't understand what you're saying about trinity. "Trinity" is the name of a desktop system, a fork of KDE3. Are you saying that there's an executable program called "trinity" that comes with the trinity distribution? Do the instructions tell you to execute it? | Dec 25 18:37 |
| cubexyz | there's no real trinity distro | Dec 25 18:37 |
| cubexyz | there is a distro that comes with trinity | Dec 25 18:38 |
| cubexyz | the rest of them are sort of tacked on | Dec 25 18:38 |
| cubexyz | there's q4os and Exe GNU/Linux that come with trinity built-in | Dec 25 18:40 |
| cubexyz | both are debian based | Dec 25 18:40 |
| msb__ | Here are the instructions on the Trinity website for installing it (the latest version) into various distros: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.2/ | Dec 25 18:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.2/ ) | Dec 25 18:42 | |
| msb__ | When I said "trinity distribution" I didn't mean a Linux distro, just the trinity files that are suitable for some set of Linux distros. | Dec 25 18:43 |
| cubexyz | ah ok | Dec 25 18:43 |
| msb__ | Many people are using Trinity DE successfully. It's not clear why Roy is having a problem, | Dec 25 18:46 |
| MinceR | i think that was an unrelated tool, called "trinity" | Dec 25 18:48 |
| cubexyz | yes there's a system call fuzzer called trinity | Dec 25 18:51 |
| <--Guest10666 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 25 18:53 | |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: do you know it | Dec 25 19:06 |
| schestowitz | ? | Dec 25 19:06 |
| schestowitz | I hope it didn't do any damage that I'm still unable to see | Dec 25 19:06 |
| schestowitz | I looked at the log | Dec 25 19:06 |
| schestowitz | it visibly left some oddly named files and dirs | Dec 25 19:07 |
| schestowitz | which I think I managed to remove completelu | Dec 25 19:07 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/nov/01/blogging.interviews | Dec 25 19:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theguardian.com | Interview: Mike Masnick, Techdirt's founder | Technology | The Guardian [ http://ur1.ca/ocz1w ] | Dec 25 19:26 | |
| schestowitz | Didn't know he knew Masnick going this long | Dec 25 19:26 |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:41 | |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 19:44 | |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:45 | |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:52 | |
| -->liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:31 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: The description of the EVIL "trinity" says: "I recommend not running it on machines containing data you care about. It's entirely plausible that trinity could start calling unlink() on files it randomly finds. You might also want to make sure that there are no nfs or similar filesystems mounted for the same reason." | Dec 25 21:01 |
| msb__ | The EVIL TRINITY is here: http://codemonkey.org.uk/projects/trinity/ | Dec 25 21:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-codemonkey.org.uk | Trinity : A Linux system call fuzzer. [ http://ur1.ca/ocz5c ] | Dec 25 21:04 | |
| msb__ | The GOOD TRINITY is here: http://trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 25 21:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-trinitydesktop.org | Trinity Desktop Environment | Dec 25 21:05 | |
| MinceR | i don't see how security testing is "EVIL" | Dec 25 21:44 |
| MinceR | i do wonder how it reacts to being run with --help or --version, though | Dec 25 21:45 |
| cubexyz | Fuzzer would have been a better name :) | Dec 25 21:45 |
| MinceR | there are many other fuzzers | Dec 25 21:51 |
| cubexyz | ok, call it trinity-fuzzer then | Dec 25 21:53 |
| cubexyz | the term trinity on it's own is hopelessly ambiguous | Dec 25 21:54 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 25 21:54 |
| msb__ | Security testing per se isn't evil, but repurposing a popular software name to a program that runs random system commands and can delete files, activate the self-destruct system, launch the ICBMs, etc -- that is goddamn stupid. | Dec 25 22:10 |
| cubexyz | actually wasn't trinity also a nuclear test? :) | Dec 25 22:11 |
| MinceR | how do you know they repurposed the name from TDE? | Dec 25 22:11 |
| cubexyz | probably not | Dec 25 22:11 |
| MinceR | they may have used the name first | Dec 25 22:11 |
| MinceR | they may have been unaware of TDE for other reasons | Dec 25 22:11 |
| MinceR | we also have two chromiums | Dec 25 22:12 |
| cubexyz | there are much earlier antecedents | Dec 25 22:12 |
| MinceR | and two gentoos | Dec 25 22:12 |
| MinceR | that too | Dec 25 22:12 |
| cubexyz | the trinity nuclear test was 1945 | Dec 25 22:12 |
| cubexyz | two software chromiums? | Dec 25 22:14 |
| cubexyz | chromium OS, chromium web browser | Dec 25 22:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are threre chromiums in software. http://www.desura.com/games/chromium-bsu everyone forgets about chromium-bsu the game. | Dec 25 22:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.desura.com | Chromium B.S.U. Windows, Mac, Linux game | Desura | Dec 25 22:20 | |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 25 22:21 |
| MinceR | there's also chromium BSU, a game | Dec 25 22:21 |
| MinceR | ah, oiaohm beat me to it | Dec 25 22:21 |
| cubexyz | there's also a chromium OpenGL implemention :) | Dec 25 22:21 |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 22:22 | |
| -->amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:23 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:24 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest19231 | Dec 25 22:25 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: The trinity fusser and the trinity desktop both come into existance in 2010. | Dec 25 22:25 |
| cubexyz | actually I did forget about Chromium the game but I did play it in the FC1 era | Dec 25 22:25 |
| cubexyz | is it still updated? | Dec 25 22:27 |
| MinceR | dunno | Dec 25 22:28 |
| MinceR | as far as shoot-em-ups go, i prefer Tyrian | Dec 25 22:28 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: last source update to Chromium B.S.U was 2013. But compared to the hybernation of supertux cart there still might be new patches. | Dec 25 22:29 |
| msb__ | I think Roy was in a hurry and didn't take time to read the description of the program he was running. Old advice from Middle East or Asia regarding carpets: "Measure six times, cut once." | Dec 25 22:30 |
| MinceR | measure once, cut once. but make a backup first. | Dec 25 22:31 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what the carpet is some carpets you never cut but work out how to carefully fold. | Dec 25 22:32 |
| MinceR | "measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe" | Dec 25 22:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yep chalk and axe the wall to make space for the Persian carpet. Because no way are you cutting the Persian carpet. | Dec 25 22:36 |
| MinceR | :D | Dec 25 22:37 |
| MinceR | would it unravel if i did? | Dec 25 22:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no you would unbalance the design so cutting it value to 1 percent or less of it starting value. | Dec 25 22:38 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 25 22:38 |
| oiaohm | Remember some of the collect-able Persian carpets are 100+ years old. And they are only worth as much as what they are because they are over 100 years old. Not something you can just go and speed money and get another one made as replacement. | Dec 25 22:39 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nola.com/homegarden/index.ssf/2013/06/this_rug_sold_for_how_much_per.html The most expensive one 33 millions dollars. Yes it more than possible that the rebuilding the building from scratch to fit the persian carpet is cheaper than cutting it. | Dec 25 22:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nola.com | This rug sold for how much? Persian carpet brings in record price | NOLA.com [ http://ur1.ca/ocz8n ] | Dec 25 22:42 | |
| oiaohm | Always know the value of what you are considering cutting as sometimes it correct to destroy everything else instead. | Dec 25 22:43 |
| MinceR | i'd rather just use carpet with a much simpler (or no) pattern | Dec 25 22:44 |
| MinceR | i'm guessing they don't walk on that carpet | Dec 25 22:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the most expensive Persian Carpet I know that is walked on is about 3 million. | Dec 25 22:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the carpet is not going to get age marks if it not used. | Dec 25 22:46 |
| MinceR | if it's used, it will wear away | Dec 25 22:47 |
| oiaohm | Well made Persian Carpets take about 120 years of wear until they have to be taken out of use. | Dec 25 22:48 |
| oiaohm | 3 million is still young by Persian Carpet standards about 80 years old. | Dec 25 22:48 |
| oiaohm | Of course strictly no drinks or shoes or smokes no where near it. Walking on it with bare feet is fine. | Dec 25 22:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically after a particular age Persian Carpets become wall decorations. Now putting items designed for floors on walls is still one hell of a challenge. | Dec 25 22:52 |
| <--sebsebseb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 25 22:52 | |
| MinceR | they can't take the strain? | Dec 25 22:57 |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 23:09 | |
| <--liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 25 23:11 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you think about it 100 years+ of wear then you decide to put them on wall for display. Yes there can be weak points. | Dec 25 23:18 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 25 23:20 |
| MinceR | so, do they glue them to a backing or what? | Dec 25 23:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gluing not the way. http://www.azerbaijanrugs.com/care-guide/rug_proper_wall_display.htm The correct way is a pure pain. Yes hand sew the Persian Carpet to backing material. Why hand is to damage the min number of fibers in the process. | Dec 25 23:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.azerbaijanrugs.com | Proper Wall Display of Oriental Rugs [ http://ur1.ca/oczai ] | Dec 25 23:50 | |
| MinceR | that was my other guess | Dec 25 23:51 |
| MinceR | but then i figured that would show more and hold at fewer points :) | Dec 25 23:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note the spaceing. Each stitch is over a foot apart in the center of carpet. | Dec 25 23:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: " Make one stitch approximately every 1 to 2 feet vertically across open areas in the middle of the rug, to provide additional support." That is why I included link. | Dec 25 23:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the stitch spacing even on a weaken rug is still not that close on each other. | Dec 25 23:54 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 25 23:55 |
| oiaohm | Of course color selection of stitch is also a factor for how bad it shows. | Dec 25 23:56 |
| oiaohm | As I said its a pure pain putting those rugs on display. Yes behind the backing can end up looking a horible mess of threads of different colors at times. | Dec 25 23:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically this is a job you cannot give to a sewing machine and get good results. | Dec 26 00:04 |
| <--Guest19231 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 00:34 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 01:03 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest57382 | Dec 26 01:04 | |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 26 01:34 | |
| <--Guest57382 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 26 03:31 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 04:03 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 04:04 | |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 26 04:04 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 04:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6929759 | Dec 26 04:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Foolishly enough, in the midst of tinkering, I ran fuzz tests on my desktop/production system, made a huge mess of files, sockets, dirs | Dec 26 04:05 | |
| schestowitz | "I’ll have to remember to not do that." | Dec 26 04:05 |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 04:12 | |
| <--pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 26 04:20 | |
| schestowitz | > https://medium.com/@networksecurity/oleoutlook-bypass-almost-every-corporate-security-control-with-a-point-n-click-gui-37f4cbc107d0 | Dec 26 05:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-medium.com | #OLEOutlook - bypass almost every Corporate security control with a point’n’click GUI — Medium [ http://ur1.ca/oczjv ] | Dec 26 05:03 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 26 05:03 |
| schestowitz | > another one from M$, in addition to their broken authentication, to | Dec 26 05:03 |
| schestowitz | > explain why the media focus on GRUB | Dec 26 05:03 |
| schestowitz | "A bit of the AC communiqué is cited in the Article in German | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | translation. I translated it back in English, without attempting to see | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | how it read like originally. I didn't bother looking up the original. | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | Feel free to insert the original passage if you find it. | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | Schöne Bescherung, | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | xxxx | Dec 26 05:41 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: stupid enough the GRUB flaw was insanely bad. Since the breach allowed undoing a few encrypted setups. | Dec 26 05:41 |
| schestowitz | needs physical access | Dec 26 05:44 |
| schestowitz | and not many distros affected | Dec 26 05:44 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: http://linuxgizmos.com/u-s-military-uav-control-systems-switch-to-linux/ You are not thinking about the level of system breached. | Dec 26 05:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-linuxgizmos.com | U.S. military UAVs migrate to Linux · LinuxGizmos.com [ http://ur1.ca/h9rqs ] | Dec 26 05:46 | |
| oiaohm | Breaching corporate secuirty is not like breaching a drone control terminal with access to drones with real arms. | Dec 26 05:46 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: so yes there are reasons to be worried about the grub issue. | Dec 26 05:47 |
| oiaohm | The lack of auditing of core parts of Linux that are used in weapon control systems is kinda serous. | Dec 26 05:48 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/status/680708062185918464 | Dec 26 06:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FOSSpatents: @schestowitz thx | Dec 26 06:14 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/greekemmy/status/680721164390543360 | Dec 26 07:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@greekemmy: @schestowitz @AssangeCase spot on! | Dec 26 07:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/680732840238170112 | Dec 26 07:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zoobab: @schestowitz it will be video streamed as well. | Dec 26 07:53 | |
| schestowitz | make static copy for dissemination | Dec 26 07:53 |
| <--oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 08:16 | |
| -->Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 08:21 | |
| amarsh04 | after all these years, Frank da Cruz is still supporting C-Kermit | Dec 26 09:45 |
| schestowitz | https://hacked.com/wiki/Dark_Web | Dec 26 09:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-hacked.com | Dark Web - Hacked | Dec 26 09:52 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 09:52 |
| schestowitz | Dark web.png | Dec 26 09:52 |
| schestowitz | Dark web is a term used to refer to thousands of web sites and communities which utilize the public Internet but are not accessible without specific software configurations, such as Tor and i2p. Tor and i2p are respectively their own darknets. Dark web is often confused with deep web, which is a term used to reference the millions of web pages which cannot be indexed by search engines. The reasons are many, but chief among them is that a | Dec 26 09:52 |
| schestowitz | password is required to access much of the Internet. For this reason, Facebook is actually considered part of the deep web, as well as any forum which requires a username and password to login. Therefore, despite dark web being a significant portion of the deep web, for the sake of understanding it is best to see them as separate ideas. | Dec 26 09:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 09:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680753940636516352 | Dec 26 09:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz blocking facebook almost sounds like a true workers paradise :). But for freedom it must be users choice to not go there... | Dec 26 09:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ClimateRetweet/status/680759477814038529 | Dec 26 09:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ClimateRetweet: RT "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of are already evident." https://t.co/bNVWhUMxmO | Dec 26 09:53 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #miami "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of #climatechange are already evident." https://t.co/AZPQN9oQav | Dec 26 09:53 | |
| -->XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 10:13 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/OuchoSparks/status/680767098776358912 | Dec 26 10:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@OuchoSparks: @schestowitz Isn't the law meant to protect Power? #Useoflaw @blumo0n | Dec 26 10:16 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/680773551784390656 | Dec 26 10:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: House Bill 1494: prohibit gov't agencies acquiring, collecting, retaining personal/social media data w/out warrant https://t.co/grOuZNlq2e | Dec 26 10:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: New Hampshire Bill Would Ban NSA Activity Called the “Biggest Threat Since the Civil War” https://t.co/nnyNaOkFPG #nh vs domestic #stasi | Dec 26 10:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blumo0n/status/680775421366022144 | Dec 26 10:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blumo0n: @OuchoSparks @schestowitz It rather depends if one interprets for oligarchs or citizens. | Dec 26 10:48 | |
| <--trn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 11:43 | |
| -->trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 11:54 | |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 11:59 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest43319 | Dec 26 11:59 | |
| schestowitz | apple opportunism http://fortune.com/2015/12/22/apple-strong-crypto/ | Dec 26 12:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-fortune.com | Apple's Case for Strong Crypto - Fortune [ http://ur1.ca/oczyl ] | Dec 26 12:29 | |
| schestowitz | and two-faced lies | Dec 26 12:29 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2015/12/23/the-morning-download-google-to-reboot-messaging-platform-amid-fierce-competition-newsletter-draft/ | Dec 26 12:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blogs.wsj.com | The Morning Download: Google to Reboot Messaging Platform Amid Fierce Competition - The CIO Report - WSJ [ http://ur1.ca/oczym ] | Dec 26 12:30 | |
| <--prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 12:34 | |
| <--XFaCE has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 26 12:35 | |
| <--Guest43319 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 12:36 | |
| -->prurigro (~prurigro@li365-7.members.linode.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 12:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/6797545497547612184 | Dec 26 12:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 26 12:41 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/basenowels/status/679859828152389632 | Dec 26 12:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 12:42 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 12:42 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/680064588130443264 | Dec 26 12:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Snowden: The solution to the Juniper mystery seems to be for @matthew_d_green to apply to work at NSA's CES and @tqbf to go to NSA's NCSC. | Dec 26 12:42 | |
| <--prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 12:45 | |
| -->XFaCE (~XFaCE@unaffiliated/xface) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 12:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680808946488217600 | Dec 26 13:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @Snowden @schestowitz can one get a fair trial by a jury that likely most have no idea what due process & a free society even looks like? | Dec 26 13:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/digital_human/status/680809316186730497 | Dec 26 13:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@digital_human: Definitly no https://t.co/6nHsk3BxQt | Dec 26 13:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "Are terrorists really using encrypted messages to plot attacks?" https://t.co/mLPP2hSSjU evidence says no so far... | Dec 26 13:04 | |
| schestowitz | choosing a nut http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/opinion/charen-does-conservatism-matter-in-republican-nomination-contest/article_6f58f5d9-1622-56b3-bf36-ca023cc76d70.html | Dec 26 13:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.yourhoustonnews.com | Charen: Does conservatism matter in Republican nomination contest? - Your Houston News: Opinion [ http://ur1.ca/od011 ] | Dec 26 13:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/lisbourne6/status/680832796538081281 | Dec 26 14:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@lisbourne6: @schestowitz @itvnews And yet cuts to flood defences I despair | Dec 26 14:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/LulhAndy/status/680833077191520257 | Dec 26 14:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@LulhAndy: @schestowitz @chrisgerhard if only we hadn't spunked all of that money on bombing the shite out of things in Syria... | Dec 26 14:36 | |
| schestowitz | floods around here.. | Dec 26 14:36 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sk8geek/status/680836428905984000 | Dec 26 14:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sk8geek: Also #Yorkshire https://t.co/vqe8WrUGAj | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: 10,000 properties without power across #Lancashire and #Rochdale https://t.co/2Az2YhHK9A a national threat much more potent than terrorism | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/680847961492946948 | Dec 26 15:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz @alistapart it's quite interesting about developers "investing countless unpaid hours" interpreting law... Why should they! | Dec 26 15:31 | |
| -->oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 16:00 | |
| <--liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 26 18:21 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I'm very sorry about the "fuzzer" business. I had never heard of it before, and now it's in google and mixed in with TDE software in some distro repos. I've sent warnings to both TDE mailing lists and its IRC channel. I've sent a request to the "fuzzer" author to put a big warning on his web page, but so far he has not responded. | Dec 26 18:23 |
| msb__ | ...but even that wouldn't help if someone gets his program from some other place. He should really put a warning in the program himself, which I will suggest if he ever gets back to me. | Dec 26 18:28 |
| schestowitz | I think it's OK | Dec 26 18:32 |
| schestowitz | I managed to delete the dodgy new files | Dec 26 18:32 |
| schestowitz | I just don't know it it silently did some other damage that I'm not seeing just yet | Dec 26 18:32 |
| msb__ | It can delete pre-existing files, and maybe whole directories. | Dec 26 18:33 |
| msb__ | I looked at the domain record for his .uk site in the hopes of finding his phone number, but he hides his identity. | Dec 26 18:34 |
| schestowitz | but how likely is this to happen? That it takes existing files and messed them up? | Dec 26 18:42 |
| schestowitz | I'm not sure yet, but it seems like it makes system calls to create new files and directories | Dec 26 18:43 |
| schestowitz | at random | Dec 26 18:43 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 18:44 |
| schestowitz | So I'd appreciate if we could join our networks and be in contact. I am ready to suggestions you might have to keep all this under a relative safe confidentiality, provided that it is possible. | Dec 26 18:44 |
| schestowitz | Looking forward to your answer, have my | Dec 26 18:44 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 18:44 |
| schestowitz | https://n0where.net/trinity-linux-system-call-fuzzer/ | Dec 26 18:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-n0where.net | Trinity: Linux system call fuzzer. [ http://ur1.ca/od0a4 ] | Dec 26 18:45 | |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [0] uname(name=0) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 18:48 |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [1] recvmmsg(fd=6, mmsg=4, vlen=0x800400a3, flags=0xa001a549, timeout=4) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 18:48 |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [2] flock(fd=399, cmd=0x84000200) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | I have some log files | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | it looks like many syscalls did not succeed | Dec 26 18:49 |
| cubexyz | what is the point of the fuzzer? | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | I searched for unlink | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | and all these requests got rejected | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | I still check | Dec 26 18:49 |
| schestowitz | yeah, every unlink call returned some error | Dec 26 18:51 |
| schestowitz | which I guess means it's not too probably that much happened except junk files appeared in homedir | Dec 26 18:51 |
| schestowitz | nothing strange has happened since, maybe I stopped it fast enough | Dec 26 18:52 |
| -->arossdotme-planb (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 19:00 | |
| MinceR | that doesn't rule out changes to existing files | Dec 26 19:01 |
| schestowitz | I know | Dec 26 19:13 |
| schestowitz | but I think the tool makes syscalls of a different nature | Dec 26 19:13 |
| schestowitz | example: | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [0] rt_sigsuspend(unewset=4, sigsetsize=0xe6e4c5ac) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1] eventfd2(count=97, flags=2049) = 663 | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [2] fanotify_init(flags=24, event_f_flags=0xff3ffe89) = -1 (Operation not permitted) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [3] fanotify_mark(fanotify_fd=282, flags=5, mask=0, dfd=253, pathname="/proc/716/net/fib_trie") = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [4] syslog(type=0x1000000, buf=0, len=31) = -1 (Operation not permitted) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [5] readlinkat(dfd=405, pathname="/proc/2738/task/2742/net/ipv6_route", buf=0x80e8000[page_zeros], bufsiz=0x9847) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [6] setfsuid(uid=0x100000) = 1000 | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [7] mq_unlink(u_name=0xb63c0000) = -1 (No such file or directory) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [8] writev(fd=405, vec=0x8b24b70, vlen=1) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [9] setuid16(uid=0x8fffffff) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [10] set_robust_list(head=4, len=12) = 0 | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [11] stime(tptr=1) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 19:14 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1579] epoll_pwait(epfd=396, events=0xfffffff7, maxevents=0xf7fff000, timeout=0xfd0b6c6a) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1580] munmap(addr=0xb6fc0000, len=0x200000) = 0 | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1581] ustat(dev=0x5d5d5d5d, ubuf=0) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1582] sigpending(set=0) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1583] umask(mask=0x42000080) = 80 | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1584] setfsuid(uid=0xffffffa6) = 1000 | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1585] pivot_root(new_root=0x80e8000[page_zeros], put_old=0xc0100220) = -1 (Operation not permitted) | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | [child0:6059] [1586] epoll_wait(epfd=405, events=1, maxevents=0x2000000, timeout=0xc0ea6a69) | Dec 26 19:15 |
| schestowitz | there are some timer_delete and delete_module calls | Dec 26 19:16 |
| <--XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 26 19:34 | |
| cubexyz | Мы должны остановить американскую угрозу Microsoft для наших компьютеров. | Dec 26 19:53 |
| cubexyz | haha, close enough | Dec 26 19:54 |
| -->DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 20:00 | |
| ---DaemonFC is now known as Guest89599 | Dec 26 20:00 | |
| -->pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 20:02 | |
| <--Guest89599 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 20:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6929055 | Dec 26 20:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The one major downside of my focus on #epo (over 100 articles so far this month) is that I lack the time to write about attacks on FOSS | Dec 26 20:22 | |
| schestowitz | "yes, but the EPO is an attack on free software." | Dec 26 20:22 |
| schestowitz | Their endorsement of software patents is dangerous, plus the unitary patent that extends their juridical scope | Dec 26 20:22 |
| <--schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 20:28 | |
| -->schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 20:28 | |
| -->liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 20:57 | |
| <--wEs84 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 26 21:02 | |
| <--amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 22:47 | |
| BACKUP | ||
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 00:02 | |
| amarsh04 | thanks for the tuxmachines.org pointer to a KDE article that mentioned: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=356580 | Dec 20 00:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.kde.org | Bug 356580 – startplasmacompositor - kwin_wayland - "/usr/lib/startplasma" - hangs at "start_kdeinit_wrapper" [ http://ur1.ca/ocpv5 ] | Dec 20 00:10 | |
| amarsh04 | I think that was the root cause of a problem that I had with the other pc for several weeks | Dec 20 00:10 |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 20 00:38 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 01:18 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 01:20 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 04:49 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 04:51 | |
| *Omega has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 05:03 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 20 05:19 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 05:23 | |
| *msb__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 20 05:31 | |
| *msb__ (~msb_@c-98-248-33-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 05:33 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 06:16 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 06:17 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 06:17 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 06:17 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 20 07:17 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 07:22 | |
| *WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 08:10 | |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 08:58 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 10:23 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 10:26 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 10:39 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 10:46 | |
| cubexyz | One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 11:43 |
| cubexyz | the idea that it's somehow the best OS is erroneous | Dec 20 11:44 |
| cubexyz | an OS that can destroy itself without any human interaction? | Dec 20 11:45 |
| cubexyz | updated foss matrix: | Dec 20 11:56 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/foss-matrix.txt | Dec 20 11:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: postscript printer is a bit old. Most advanced printers these days are pdf printers. | Dec 20 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Because pdf can store color correction profiles. | Dec 20 12:15 |
| cubexyz | what printer would you recommend, keeping in mind I use all sorts of oddball OSes | Dec 20 12:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you have to remember cups internally these days uses PDF. | Dec 20 12:18 |
| oiaohm | So as long as the OS you use can print by a cups print server PDF supporting printer would be good enough cubexyz | Dec 20 12:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the issue with postscript only printers is that postscript was really designed for black and white so color correction stuff does not have place to go in postscript. | Dec 20 12:22 |
| cubexyz | that's ok. My old HP LaserJet is B&W | Dec 20 12:22 |
| oiaohm | exchange has replacement openchange that allows you to use sogo to provide exchange protocol to outlook yet not run exchange itself. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| oiaohm | sogo is the groupware and openchange provides the exchnage protocol bits. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Kinda explains why Microsoft is going after cloud so much. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| cubexyz | just encountered something new... | Dec 20 12:50 |
| cubexyz | a web site that works with flash9 but not 10 or 11 | Dec 20 12:50 |
| *WeS has quit (Quit: Gtg See ya Later) | Dec 20 12:50 | |
| *ohama has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) | Dec 20 13:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/678557009399123968 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: @schestowitz #Facebook has always been 'highly selective' in what it bans/censors. | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MarvinHZalowitz/status/678560848210583552 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MarvinHZalowitz: @schestowitz @SeaH2ONymph FACE BOOK: POLITICALLY CENSORED... I've been censored... | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/indy_johar/status/678561064536154113 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@indy_johar: In an increasingly interdependent world - how do we do governance & then journalism? https://t.co/HwOOAGv2sc | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #AlJazeera Blocks Anti-Saudi Arabia Article https://t.co/SADPrwW47P Barbaria has so much to hide from the world. #censorship | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/_PaulMoseley_/status/678562245987721216 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@_PaulMoseley_: @indy_johar @schestowitz @the_intercept demonstrate the benefits/abilities transparent and adaptive ecosystems hold over restrictive ones. | Dec 20 13:27 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png | Dec 20 13:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png ) | Dec 20 13:27 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that not only complex. I still remember the time with MS Office 2003 I opened every toolbar it had. | Dec 20 13:49 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: because you need a triange tool occupying 160 pixels of your screen all the time | Dec 20 13:54 |
| schestowitz | you know, you must draw triangles on your text every other minute... | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | I personally minimise GUIs to what I actually use | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | the rest I can find folded under menus | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | less clutter, less likelihood of errors, higher speed, productivity | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | same in web browsers | Dec 20 13:55 |
| cubexyz | schestowitz :) | Dec 20 13:56 |
| cubexyz | note to self: do not program overly elaborate toolbars | Dec 20 13:57 |
| cubexyz | I don't have any idea what half that stuff does | Dec 20 13:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/iPrivate404/status/678577331603132416 | Dec 20 14:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@iPrivate404: #Beware #SpyWare 🚩🆘 #NoSpy 🔎📵 https://t.co/5wdfkvBt0J | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile https://t.co/wkqlt7mOar ... https://t.co/HrfOY7e1Pp | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921638 | Dec 20 14:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile http://bgr.com/2015/12/17/government-surveillance-spy-catalog/ https://www.rt.com/usa/326361-secret-surveillance-catalog-intercept/ http://bgr.com/2015/12/18/nsa-spy-devices-cellphone-data-tracking/ | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | Government Surveillance: The devices used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtj ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.rt.com | Intercepted catalog shows off secret surveillance gear — RT USA [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtk ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | NSA spy devices: The scariest gadgets used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtl ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| schestowitz | glad I don't own a mobile | Dec 20 14:08 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 14:16 | |
| *ohama (ohama@cicolina.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 14:18 | |
| MinceR | 124315 < cubexyz> One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | it's ideally fucked up | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | both in design and in implementation | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | but maybe poettering and his cult can outdo it! | Dec 20 14:28 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/El_racionalista/status/678618288914477057 | Dec 20 16:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@El_racionalista: @schestowitz @All4Privacy If it isn't free software, I can't trust it. How to know what is doing if you can't access the source code? | Dec 20 16:55 | |
| *sabalmyrak (~lars@cm-84.208.229.82.getinternet.no) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 17:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678631710398005249 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @schestowitz It is warm here in Kiev too. And still no snow(( | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678633566335582209 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Крепостное право живее всех живых в Мире, наравне, конечно, с рабовладением. https://t.co/gVXH477fBE | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The far right-hand #heritagefoundation wants to conduct deep #surveillance for #immigration purposes https://t.co/yZdUkmmtGm | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kdghantous/status/678635329318879233 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kdghantous: Do you have any idea how the energy industry works? Any idea at all? https://t.co/xtMefdWKLn | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #climatechange deniers (often funded by the oil industry) claim that throwing them aside is "censorship" https://t.co/RhvY36dd6X it's not | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| *Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 18:22 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 20:34 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921407 | Dec 20 21:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of #Android Phone http://www.idigitaltimes.com/blackberry-priv-bb-3q-earnings-12-percent-following-release-android-phone-498932 #linux | Dec 20 21:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.idigitaltimes.com | BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of Android Phone [ http://ur1.ca/ocraw ] | Dec 20 21:49 | |
| schestowitz | "Hmm… I wonder if it is really the Android Phone as there should not be even 1 month of selling in those Q3 earnings report." | Dec 20 21:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/fth_nix/status/678697256711757824 | Dec 20 22:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@fth_nix: Please!!!!! https://t.co/KR7lvkbe0C | Dec 20 22:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: LEGO: The New Open Source Toy? https://t.co/Jtp2L0VDkx #lego #freesw #github | Dec 20 22:06 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 20 22:26 | |
| *sabalmyrak has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 23:07 | |
| schestowitz | > Sorry, but I have not been here for a while. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > The below link is all over the place in EPO, and outside. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > nice video: | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > "EPO Management Discovers Media is Against It" | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > I attach EPO-FLIER No. 18, it's funny too | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | Glad people appreciate the video. Took nearly an hour to edit and all... could make it funnier if I put some time into it. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 21 00:42 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 01:23 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 01:34 | |
| schestowitz | Catching up with massive backlog at the moment. | Dec 21 02:12 |
| schestowitz | Wondering if SUEPO will ever translate this (nothing special in there based on an automated translation, but a "nice to have").... | Dec 21 02:12 |
| schestowitz | Junge Welt (11 December 2015) | Dec 21 02:12 |
| schestowitz | “Unrechtsstaat im Staate” | Dec 21 02:12 |
| schestowitz | Source: http://www.jungewelt.de/2015/12-11/020.php | Dec 21 02:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.jungewelt.de | 11.12.2015: Unrechtsstaat im Staate (Tageszeitung junge Welt) [ http://ur1.ca/ocrik ] | Dec 21 02:12 | |
| *Disconnected (). | Dec 21 02:33 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 02:33:55 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 02:34:15 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 21 02:34 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 21 02:34 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 21 02:34 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 05:38 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 21 07:22 | |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 09:16 | |
| *cubeman_ (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 09:49 | |
| *cubexyz has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 09:50 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Rumours say EPO’s President Battistelli’s proposal to reform the Boards of Appeal, move it out of Munich, and create a new oversight structure has just been rejected, Merpel says." | Dec 21 09:50 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/never-too-late-if-you-missed-ipkat-last_21.html | Dec 21 09:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Never too late: if you missed the IPKat last week [ http://ur1.ca/ocrvf ] | Dec 21 09:50 | |
| *tessier_ (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 09:58 | |
| *balrog_ (~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 10:02 | |
| *tessier has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trn has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *balrog has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *balrog_ is now known as balrog | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trnv2 (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trnv2 is now known as trn | Dec 21 10:20 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678885583893233664 | Dec 21 10:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: .@schestowitz Hrmbl. Red Hat Linux. Hrmbl. ;-) But our dedication to support open standards (ODF) clearly shows :-) | Dec 21 10:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890574003486720 https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890371087278080 | Dec 21 11:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz sorry, not a journalist, "independent researcher". | Dec 21 11:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz why would you expect a journalist spend more than five minutes while transcribing a press release in his own words? | Dec 21 11:04 | |
| r_schestowitz | Did I ever say Red Hat did not support ODF?! | Dec 21 11:04 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/678893451178569729 | Dec 21 11:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V https://t.co/xie5eu93lE #epo #battistelli | Dec 21 11:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V | Techrights | Dec 21 11:05 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678894450060500993 | Dec 21 11:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: @schestowitz I made a generic statement, not a correction or attack. Quite some out there question RHTs commitment to desktop/users | Dec 21 11:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6923011 | Dec 21 11:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Imagine giving the World Cup (e.g. in football) to the wrong team, only to realise the error one minute later. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvegBo4TUdQ | Dec 21 11:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.youtube.com | HD: (FULL) Steve Harvey Messes Up On Miss Universe 2015! COLOMBIA x Philippines - YouTube [ http://ur1.ca/ocrzh ] | Dec 21 11:48 | |
| *cubeman_ has quit (Quit: Leaving) | Dec 21 11:51 | |
| *cubexyz (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 11:51 | |
| *amarsh04_ (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 13:32 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 21 13:32 | |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 21 14:20 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/ms-dirtytricks.txt | Dec 21 14:33 |
| cubexyz | another update | Dec 21 14:33 |
| cubexyz | "Microsoft was a criminal racket" | Dec 21 14:35 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you need to do some corrections to your SMB information there. https://www.samba.org/cifs/docs/smb-history.html | Dec 21 14:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.samba.org | History of SMB [ http://ur1.ca/ocs7i ] | Dec 21 14:42 | |
| cubexyz | guesses? | Dec 21 14:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: first SMB protocol is part of IBM PC Network Technical Reference No. 6322916, 1984. | Dec 21 14:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: dec implementation of SMB was based off the open documents by Intel and Microsoft on SMB. | Dec 21 14:45 |
| cubexyz | not disagreeing, the point was Microsoft wasn't the originator | Dec 21 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Interesting point early on Microsoft with SMB was well behaved. | Dec 21 14:48 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: in fact up until the year 2000 Microsoft was fairly well behaved. | Dec 21 14:49 |
| oiaohm | with SMB. | Dec 21 14:49 |
| cubexyz | yes qualify it :) | Dec 21 14:49 |
| cubexyz | and the 1984 implementation was NetBIOS, not samba | Dec 21 14:50 |
| cubexyz | everyone seems to agree that IBM invented NetBIOS | Dec 21 14:50 |
| cubexyz | doesn't seem too DEC-like | Dec 21 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Exactly you have to go back before samba to get a SMB protocol stuff without Microsoft involved. | Dec 21 14:51 |
| oiaohm | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corp_v_Commission | Dec 21 14:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Microsoft Corp v Commission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/ocs7p ] | Dec 21 14:51 | |
| oiaohm | on network protocol stuff Microsoft started in 1998 and the like becoming a ass. | Dec 21 14:51 |
| cubexyz | DEC had DECnet of course | Dec 21 14:52 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: something to note. | Dec 21 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I think that was pre-TCP/IP even | Dec 21 14:52 |
| oiaohm | Jan 1, 1996 was the last time before the EU court case that Microsoft released how SMB worked. | Dec 21 14:53 |
| oiaohm | The mess is when Microsoft decided to do active directory and the like in 2000. | Dec 21 14:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so early on in places Microsoft was well behaved. The browser wars happen and all the good behavour goes out the window. | Dec 21 14:54 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft was bad from the very start though | Dec 21 14:54 |
| cubexyz | which you'll find in that ms-dirtytricks.txt file | Dec 21 14:54 |
| cubexyz | can't really say Microsoft was "well behaved" | Dec 21 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Some areas Microsoft was well behaved. | Dec 21 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft is not the only software company that was founded using stolen hardware. | Dec 21 14:55 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that's true | Dec 21 14:55 |
| cubexyz | we probably only know the tip of the iceberg | Dec 21 14:55 |
| cubexyz | my main complaint is there is no over-sight of Microsoft | Dec 21 14:56 |
| cubexyz | ah wait just a sec oiaohm ... | Dec 21 14:57 |
| cubexyz | wikipedia says NetBIOS was developed by Sytek | Dec 21 14:58 |
| cubexyz | for IBM PC network LAN tech | Dec 21 14:58 |
| cubexyz | Sytek later becomes Hughes LAN systems | Dec 21 15:00 |
| cubexyz | does anyone still use NetBIOS for anything now? | Dec 21 15:00 |
| cubexyz | windows 7 had NetBIOS over TCP/IP | Dec 21 15:02 |
| cubexyz | if DNS stops working windows uses netbios for network names | Dec 21 15:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you hear the term wins right cubexyz | Dec 21 15:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: windows and the WINS server. | Dec 21 15:03 |
| cubexyz | windows internet name service | Dec 21 15:03 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Internet_Name_Service | Dec 21 15:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Windows Internet Name Service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 21 15:03 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: WINS is NetBIOS that is what is. | Dec 21 15:03 |
| cubexyz | but we really mainly use DNS | Dec 21 15:03 |
| cubexyz | or to put it another way... my computer lap uses TCP/IP | Dec 21 15:04 |
| cubexyz | so I | Dec 21 15:04 |
| cubexyz | so I've moved on from interoperating with microsoft | Dec 21 15:04 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft -> Lose. | Dec 21 15:05 |
| cubexyz | beyond web pages at least | Dec 21 15:05 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the fun part about Mcirosoft SMB http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/samba/book/ch07_03.html | Dec 21 15:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.oreilly.com | [Chapter 7] 7.3 Name Resolution with Samba [ http://ur1.ca/ocs88 ] | Dec 21 15:06 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: 3 over the wire solving. | Dec 21 15:06 |
| cubexyz | it's all microsoft mind pollution | Dec 21 15:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: most people are not aware https://technet.microsoft.com/en-au/library/cc770313.aspx that you have NIS, WINS(netbios), DNS and broadcast as ways of solving out IP address of a computer | Dec 21 15:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-technet.microsoft.com | Overview of Server for NIS [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8b ] | Dec 21 15:08 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: so at times finding a flaw in any one of the 4 can cause a Microsoft network major hell. | Dec 21 15:08 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, don't you think people are starting to dump Microsoft? | Dec 21 15:09 |
| cubexyz | at least thinking about it? | Dec 21 15:09 |
| oiaohm | Groups are doing it. | Dec 21 15:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Migration does require compadiblity in stages of it. | Dec 21 15:14 |
| cubexyz | people shouldn't be suckers forever | Dec 21 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Really humans are suckers. | Dec 21 15:14 |
| oiaohm | You think how many business are putting there full operations in the cloud on servers they don't control. | Dec 21 15:14 |
| cubexyz | seems like a bad idea | Dec 21 15:15 |
| oiaohm | I know is a very bad idea. | Dec 21 15:15 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem with presuming people are not suckers. | Dec 21 15:15 |
| cubexyz | http://www.freemansperspective.com/must-dump-microsoft-now/ | Dec 21 15:15 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: think about how many people you know who use facebook. | Dec 21 15:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.freemansperspective.com | Why You Must Dump Microsoft NOW [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8j ] | Dec 21 15:15 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: remember facebook has performed human expernmentationon their members. | Dec 21 15:16 |
| oiaohm | http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/09/facebooks-mood-manipulation-experiment-might-be-illegal/380717/ | Dec 21 15:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theatlantic.com | Facebook's Mood Manipulation Experiment Might Have Been Illegal - The Atlantic [ http://ur1.ca/ocs8n ] | Dec 21 15:17 | |
| cubexyz | you know what burns me up... people have this stupid idea that dumping microsoft means going to apple | Dec 21 15:17 |
| cubexyz | no one seems to consider going Linix/BSD/Other | Dec 21 15:17 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: let be way more careful its not Just Microsoft who is nasty. | Dec 21 15:17 |
| cubexyz | oh, I don't like facebook | Dec 21 15:18 |
| cubexyz | just imagine how slow it runs on older computers :) | Dec 21 15:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: how many people going apple are also facebook users. | Dec 21 15:18 |
| cubexyz | a guy like me hates facebook... I'm in a category of one it seems | Dec 21 15:19 |
| cubexyz | the idea of minimalism is not at all popular | Dec 21 15:19 |
| cubexyz | the only exception is the classic computer crowd... but they aren't true minimalists | Dec 21 15:20 |
| cubexyz | apple is the polar opposite of my world-wide: they are conspicious consumption advocates! | Dec 21 15:21 |
| cubexyz | veblen goods | Dec 21 15:21 |
| oiaohm | I am part a realist. | Dec 21 15:21 |
| oiaohm | Until wayland on Linux is ready Linux doing a major marking attack for Desktop would be a death trap. | Dec 21 15:22 |
| cubexyz | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_goods | Dec 21 15:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Veblen good - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/g9s4l ] | Dec 21 15:22 | |
| cubexyz | I'm a Vance Packardian :) | Dec 21 15:23 |
| oiaohm | systemd may not be absolutely liked. But there is a problem for the desktop. | Dec 21 15:25 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, what about all that xlib based source code? | Dec 21 15:25 |
| cubexyz | can it run on wayland? | Dec 21 15:25 |
| oiaohm | xwayland can be used to run x11 based application contained on Wayland. | Dec 21 15:26 |
| cubexyz | ok, sure, why not try it then | Dec 21 15:26 |
| cubexyz | got to be willing to try new ideas | Dec 21 15:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: X11 cannot do secure login screens and other key parts. | Dec 21 15:26 |
| oiaohm | So X11 has to become sandboxed. | Dec 21 15:26 |
| oiaohm | Next problem is performance. | Dec 21 15:27 |
| oiaohm | this is where init systems like systemd come in. | Dec 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | there's a long list of things current wayland implementations can't do | Dec 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | and systemd is not an init system | Dec 21 15:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: List of what wayland cannot do is reducing every release. | Dec 21 15:27 |
| MinceR | all these arguments are like poettering's bullshit about how systemd is better than everything else | Dec 21 15:28 |
| MinceR | with his bullshit table | Dec 21 15:28 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: we have yet to see if they even intend to do what x11 could already do | Dec 21 15:28 |
| cubexyz | I don't think anyone here is saying that though | Dec 21 15:28 |
| MinceR | like decouple the window manager from the windowing system | Dec 21 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Lets look at how come windows desktop performs so well. Load up 2 identical benchmarking applications 1 in background and 1 in forground. Guess what on desktop Windows the one in forground gets 3 times the cpu time of the one in background. | Dec 21 15:30 |
| cubexyz | don't forget old X ran on some pretty old hardware | Dec 21 15:30 |
| cubexyz | remember IBM RT? It had X | Dec 21 15:31 |
| cubexyz | MicroVAX had X | Dec 21 15:31 |
| oiaohm | Same biasing exists on Windows desktop to reduce the cpu consume of the services in background. | Dec 21 15:31 |
| cubexyz | so it shouldn't be turtle slow now | Dec 21 15:31 |
| MinceR | "Lets look at how come windows desktop performs so well." | Dec 21 15:31 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 21 15:31 |
| MinceR | have you even seen a windows desktop up close? | Dec 21 15:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have. | Dec 21 15:32 |
| cubexyz | I thought XP was slow | Dec 21 15:32 |
| oiaohm | Even that windows benchmarks many time lower than Linux. | Dec 21 15:32 |
| MinceR | what you mentioned is just a crap workaround for the windows task scheduler being crap | Dec 21 15:32 |
| cubexyz | and it just got slower and slower over time | Dec 21 15:32 |
| oiaohm | Lot of differnet end users will say LInux after a clean install appears slow. | Dec 21 15:32 |
| MinceR | also, any window manager could do that if desired | Dec 21 15:32 |
| MinceR | but it is not | Dec 21 15:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will winblows stop randomly losing focus? | Dec 21 15:33 |
| oiaohm | Of course Windows has massive number of design flaws. | Dec 21 15:33 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will winblows start properly supporting usb input devices? | Dec 21 15:33 |
| cubexyz | so think 4.3BSD running on microvax with X... ahead of it's time | Dec 21 15:33 |
| MinceR | when will be the year of winblows on the desktop? | Dec 21 15:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: windows has had it year on the desktop. | Dec 21 15:33 |
| MinceR | when? | Dec 21 15:33 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm is overlooking a lot of history | Dec 21 15:33 |
| oiaohm | The problem is undoing it footing. | Dec 21 15:33 |
| MinceR | he's overlooking a lot of facts | Dec 21 15:33 |
| MinceR | but i guess it comes with buying into lendows | Dec 21 15:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: My machine here is pure Debian. | Dec 21 15:34 |
| MinceR | after all, the whole point of lendows is to replace gnu/linux with reimplementations of winblows design flaws | Dec 21 15:34 |
| MinceR | debian 8? | Dec 21 15:34 |
| oiaohm | I have not bought a copy of Windows in 10 years. | Dec 21 15:34 |
| MinceR | when i switched from winblows to gnu/linux with x, the performance improvements were very noticeable | Dec 21 15:34 |
| MinceR | even the slowest wm performed faster than winblows | Dec 21 15:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I am running debian 9. | Dec 21 15:35 |
| MinceR | so, lendows | Dec 21 15:35 |
| MinceR | prboom ran smoother on gnu/linux with sw synth than on winblows with hw synth | Dec 21 15:35 |
| cubexyz | just thinking about giving microsoft money makes me feel ill | Dec 21 15:35 |
| MinceR | same | Dec 21 15:36 |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 15:36 | |
| MinceR | pretty much all of that money is used to oppress us even more | Dec 21 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Main reason why I hate windows is I switch between applications a lot so the 3x speed up to forground does me no good. | Dec 21 15:36 |
| cubexyz | at least there's chromebooks | Dec 21 15:36 |
| MinceR | see, it's a bad idea | Dec 21 15:36 |
| MinceR | it's only there to try and make it seem like it's not slowing the computer to a crawl | Dec 21 15:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: but lots of users only use 1 or two applications at a time. | Dec 21 15:37 |
| MinceR | giving input to a certain application is not the same as wanting a certain application to have extra cpu time | Dec 21 15:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: in which case it doesn't even matter | Dec 21 15:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: o yes it does I said only use 1 or 2 applications at a time not that they were only running 1 or 2 applications at a time. | Dec 21 15:38 |
| oiaohm | Its why people migrate to Linux then complain it don't perform and we end up wondering what in hell Linux is most of the time faster. | Dec 21 15:38 |
| cubexyz | X didn't just run on microvax but _old_ microvax 3000s | Dec 21 15:39 |
| MinceR | then have wayland also change priorities | Dec 21 15:39 |
| MinceR | if the objective is to copy winblows anyway | Dec 21 15:39 |
| MinceR | one more stupid unconfigurable misfeature should be great | Dec 21 15:39 |
| oiaohm | wayland using kernel mode setting and kernel mode allocation of resources. Its makes it way more possible for the scheduler in kernel to know what application is in fact the current active one. | Dec 21 15:40 |
| MinceR | it's trivial for a window manager to run renice on focus change | Dec 21 15:41 |
| MinceR | this isn't rocket science | Dec 21 15:41 |
| oiaohm | Not in fact under X11. | Dec 21 15:41 |
| MinceR | why, does the window manager not know where the focus is? | Dec 21 15:41 |
| oiaohm | X11 servers are not required to get the correct process information of the applications connected to them. | Dec 21 15:41 |
| MinceR | or does it not know the PIDs despite having EWMH extensions? | Dec 21 15:42 |
| MinceR | afaik there's a property that stores the pid of the process for the window | Dec 21 15:42 |
| oiaohm | X11 client application is free to set the displayed PID to what ever it likes. | Dec 21 15:42 |
| MinceR | yes, and you can screw up windows in a million ways | Dec 21 15:42 |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 21 15:42 |
| oiaohm | This is big bad problem with X11 this stuff is not secure. | Dec 21 15:42 |
| MinceR | i'm tired of people pretending winblows is perfect when trying to sell its design flaws | Dec 21 15:43 |
| oiaohm | So wm attempting to renice PID 1 or 0 would not be parituclar good. | Dec 21 15:43 |
| MinceR | ooh, because windows is? | Dec 21 15:43 |
| MinceR | actually it wouldn't do anything as it's not running as root | Dec 21 15:43 |
| oiaohm | Old X11 server before KMS does run as root. | Dec 21 15:43 |
| MinceR | the window manager doesn't run as root | Dec 21 15:43 |
| MinceR | remember, x is modular | Dec 21 15:44 |
| MinceR | the windowing system is not the same as the window manager | Dec 21 15:44 |
| oiaohm | X11 server did include means to renice processors. You hope you X11 server is not built with them. | Dec 21 15:44 |
| MinceR | yes, i do | Dec 21 15:44 |
| MinceR | and from what i've seen, it wasn't | Dec 21 15:44 |
| MinceR | "mechanism, not policy" | Dec 21 15:44 |
| MinceR | it does not belong in the x server | Dec 21 15:44 |
| cubexyz | what uses wayland? | Dec 21 15:45 |
| cubexyz | which distros use it? | Dec 21 15:45 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: fedora 24 the next one out is planing that the login screens will be wayland. Fedora 23 has optional wayland modes. Of course there are issues with lack of closed soruce drivers and so on. | Dec 21 15:49 |
| MinceR | lol | Dec 21 15:49 |
| MinceR | the boot logo won't be wayland? :> | Dec 21 15:49 |
| oiaohm | Changing the login screens to wayland makes sense. | Dec 21 15:49 |
| cubexyz | what if I want wayland but don't want systemd? | Dec 21 15:50 |
| MinceR | you're SOL, i guess | Dec 21 15:50 |
| MinceR | maybe consolekit2 or something will let you run it | Dec 21 15:51 |
| MinceR | maybe not | Dec 21 15:51 |
| oiaohm | Running wayland or X11 without root rights requires a logind server of some form. | Dec 21 15:51 |
| MinceR | they don't care anyway | Dec 21 15:51 |
| cubexyz | doesn't seem too appealing | Dec 21 15:51 |
| oiaohm | yes consolekit2 logind will do. | Dec 21 15:51 |
| MinceR | it's appealing to people who believe winblows design flaws are features | Dec 21 15:51 |
| oiaohm | People who think that Windows is only flaws and not mangaged to get anything right are the people who would throw a baby out with the bath water. | Dec 21 15:52 |
| oiaohm | I am not saying Microsoft has not got a lot wrong. | Dec 21 15:52 |
| oiaohm | But a few things they did get right for particular usage cases. | Dec 21 15:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, with windows we have no OS source code and no control | Dec 21 15:53 |
| MinceR | funny thing to see a cancerd apologist talking about throwing babies out with the bathwater | Dec 21 15:53 |
| MinceR | but you do have all sorts of unrelated stuff crammed together in the same process, or in the kernel | Dec 21 15:53 |
| cubexyz | ok. we have most of NT4 and part of win2k but still.... | Dec 21 15:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: I agree with items like no source code and no control is some of Windows biggest problems. | Dec 21 15:53 |
| MinceR | you have a broken task scheduler, a broken windowing system, a broken usb stack | Dec 21 15:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I have not said systemd is perfect either. | Dec 21 15:54 |
| MinceR | i think its biggest problem is that it's designed and implemented by idiots and overseen by evil idiots | Dec 21 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Something systemd does are the right path. | Dec 21 15:54 |
| MinceR | it inherited the "dave cutler hates unix" design principle from vms | Dec 21 15:54 |
| MinceR | and added some similarly idiotic ones | Dec 21 15:54 |
| cubexyz | I mean several of my customers told me windows 10 put their computer in a state where they couldn't reinstall the OS | Dec 21 15:54 |
| oiaohm | Other things like shoving way too much into pid 1 that systemd has done is wrong. Yes even the recent systemd conference started talking about addressing that. | Dec 21 15:55 |
| MinceR | like what? using cgroups for things cgroups aren't ready for yet? | Dec 21 15:55 |
| cubexyz | so for now, I remain on FC1, OpenBSD, Q4OS, and ancient Unix | Dec 21 15:55 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing their closed, unstable, secret APIs? | Dec 21 15:55 |
| cubexyz | and slackware :) | Dec 21 15:55 |
| cubexyz | probably never | Dec 21 15:55 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing their fascistic attitude? | Dec 21 15:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a dispute between cgroup kernel group and systemd designers. cgroup kernel group only wants to give 1 process control of cgroups. systemd wants to have many. | Dec 21 15:56 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing that they killed most gnu/linux distros with their microsoftesque tactics? | Dec 21 15:56 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing that they're trying to force Linus to fuck up the kernel? | Dec 21 15:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: did you watch the systemd conference videos? | Dec 21 15:56 |
| MinceR | no | Dec 21 15:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I 100 percent guess not. | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | i'm not interested in winblows fanboy circlejerk | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | especially not in poettering | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | that retard doesn't even know software engineering 101 | Dec 21 15:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: why because all the crap you just spewed you hear the guys running large systems say this has to be addressed here is plans todo i. | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | then again, neither does dave cutler, apparently | Dec 21 15:57 |
| cubexyz | note that with X Window System we can run Linux stuff on BSD which is nice | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | when will they start addressing the fact that they're putting the cart before the horse? | Dec 21 15:57 |
| cubexyz | doesn't exist on BSD? No problem! | Dec 21 15:57 |
| MinceR | fix your design first, force your stuff on every distro later | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: we will probably have to | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | eventually | Dec 21 15:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: unforntantly that is not even how sysvinit was first deployed into Linux. | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | people like gregkh will eventually fuck up Linux completely | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sysvinit is easy to swap out | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: systemd isn't | Dec 21 15:58 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: history with Linux with lots of core services is cart first horse secend. | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | do you know why? because sysvinit is an init system, and systemd is cancer | Dec 21 15:58 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: maybe if lendows folks spent as much energy on design as they do on lame excuses, lendows wouldn't be so crap | Dec 21 15:59 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: when will they start documenting their shitty, unreadable source code? | Dec 21 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Really come on open up early apache some time. | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | almost nothing depends on apache | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | gnome, kde and waylandows depend on systemd | Dec 21 16:00 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the early projects are full of shitty unreadable code. | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | see the difference? | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | early projects are not mandatory to use by distros | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | also, note that systemd has spent 4 years as default in fedora when it was forced into debian | Dec 21 16:00 |
| oiaohm | I have told you gnome, kde and wayland connection is logind. | Dec 21 16:00 |
| MinceR | and it was still an unreliable mess | Dec 21 16:01 |
| oiaohm | BSD is implementing there own version of logind. | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | actually, gnome and kde are doing more than just logind | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | yay, bsd has capitulated | Dec 21 16:01 |
| oiaohm | what features do you think kde and gnome are using. | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | hopefully some of them have enough of a clue to not turn into winblows | Dec 21 16:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: BSD world put up the logind idea. | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-datetimed | Dec 21 16:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: Logind predates systemd. | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-hostnamed | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-catd | Dec 21 16:01 |
| MinceR | systemd-bashd | Dec 21 16:02 |
| MinceR | systemd-emacsd | Dec 21 16:02 |
| MinceR | why store executables on your filesystems if you can run daemons all the time? | Dec 21 16:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: what has happened is systemd has taken in a stack of what was independant projects. | Dec 21 16:02 |
| MinceR | and turned them into dependent projects | Dec 21 16:02 |
| MinceR | and forced them on everyone they could using microsoftesque tactics | Dec 21 16:03 |
| MinceR | without spending any effort on making them not suck | Dec 21 16:03 |
| oiaohm | Something to remember most of the project systemd took over where unmaintained. | Dec 21 16:03 |
| oiaohm | Yet everyone was using them. | Dec 21 16:03 |
| MinceR | >everyone | Dec 21 16:03 |
| MinceR | [citation needed] | Dec 21 16:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: udev had not had a offical maitnained for 12 months before systemd took it in. | Dec 21 16:05 |
| MinceR | and it was better off without that | Dec 21 16:05 |
| MinceR | it used to be independently usable | Dec 21 16:05 |
| MinceR | then systemd assimilated | Dec 21 16:05 |
| MinceR | poettering lied when he said it will remain independently usable | Dec 21 16:05 |
| oiaohm | Not really first thing when udev was taken in was 22 security flaws fixed. | Dec 21 16:05 |
| MinceR | they took udev and fucked it up | Dec 21 16:06 |
| oiaohm | It was fucked up before they took it in. | Dec 21 16:06 |
| MinceR | http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.hotplug.devel/17392 | Dec 21 16:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-article.gmane.org | Gmane -- The future of the udev source tree | Dec 21 16:06 | |
| oiaohm | due to the unmaintained status. | Dec 21 16:06 |
| MinceR | http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html | Dec 21 16:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.freedesktop.org | [systemd-devel] [PATCH] Drop the udev firmware loader [ http://ur1.ca/ir0kd ] | Dec 21 16:06 | |
| MinceR | it worked regardless of what you ran in pid1 before | Dec 21 16:06 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: complaining about firmware loader. Please tell me what Linux kernel version number you could no longer use the udev firmware loader any how because userspace firmware loading had been terminated. | Dec 21 16:08 |
| MinceR | ask poettering | Dec 21 16:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no | Dec 21 16:10 |
| oiaohm | The answer is 2.6.0 | Dec 21 16:10 |
| oiaohm | The feature has been in udev for a long time and did not work at all. | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | 2012-04-03 16:15:13 GMT > The udev built from the systemd source tree will stay compatible with | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | non-systemd init systems for a long time. | Dec 21 16:10 |
| oiaohm | Last stable kernels that could use the firmware loading feature was 2.4.x series. | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | May 31 22:45:17 PDT 2014 > Unless the systemd-haters prepare another | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | kdbus userspace until then this will effectively also mean that we will | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | not support non-systemd systems with udev anymore starting at that | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | point. Gentoo folks, this is your wakeup call. | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | spot the contradiction. | Dec 21 16:10 |
| MinceR | also notice the attitude towards a distro that attempts to give users the choice ratcrap is trying to remove. | Dec 21 16:11 |
| oiaohm | evdev in gentoo does not contain userspace firmware loading code either. | Dec 21 16:11 |
| oiaohm | Because it pointless in most cases. | Dec 21 16:11 |
| MinceR | you know what else is pointless? | Dec 21 16:11 |
| oiaohm | Somethings cut away are the right thing MinceR | Dec 21 16:12 |
| MinceR | claiming winblows is perfect and turning gnu/linux into winblows, when you could already use the winblows you already have | Dec 21 16:12 |
| oiaohm | I don't claim Windows is perfect MinceR | Dec 21 16:12 |
| MinceR | fucking buy a winblows license or download winblows and use it | Dec 21 16:12 |
| oiaohm | Neither do most people interested in systemd. | Dec 21 16:12 |
| MinceR | then why do they insist on copying every single design flaw from winblows? | Dec 21 16:12 |
| oiaohm | In fact I don't know of one person interested in systemd who says Windows is perfect. | Dec 21 16:13 |
| MinceR | and why do they insist on shoving the results down everybody's throats? | Dec 21 16:13 |
| oiaohm | I have shown you before that the design flaws are not coming from windows. | Dec 21 16:13 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe stuffing tons of unrelated shit into the same process is a good idea | Dec 21 16:13 |
| oiaohm | You have high end server users working with solaris and the like attempting to bring the features offer. | Dec 21 16:13 |
| MinceR | otherwise they would not be doing it! | Dec 21 16:13 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe shoving stuff that does not belong in the kernel into the kernel | Dec 21 16:13 |
| MinceR | otherwise they would not be doing it! | Dec 21 16:13 |
| oiaohm | Unreleated crap in the same process that has happened over and over again in the Unix world. | Dec 21 16:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that removing the separation between windowing system, window manager and gui toolkit is a good idea | Dec 21 16:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that client-side decorations are a good idea | Dec 21 16:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I guess you have never used busybox. | Dec 21 16:14 |
| MinceR | they obviously believe that not supporting virtual consoles is a good idea | Dec 21 16:14 |
| MinceR | busybox is a special case | Dec 21 16:14 |
| MinceR | also note that most distros don't force you to use busybox | Dec 21 16:15 |
| MinceR | and no desktop environments do! | Dec 21 16:15 |
| MinceR | there was no pressure put on debian to make them replace gnu with busybox | Dec 21 16:15 |
| oiaohm | bash is more shell than you need to start the system. | Dec 21 16:15 |
| MinceR | there's no troll horde roaming irc attacking people for not liking busybox | Dec 21 16:15 |
| oiaohm | bash is another example of lets keep on shoving features in there. | Dec 21 16:15 |
| MinceR | and yet i can use other shells | Dec 21 16:16 |
| MinceR | even at the same time! | Dec 21 16:16 |
| MinceR | gnome and kde don't depend on bash either, do they? | Dec 21 16:16 |
| oiaohm | Remember after bash got too heavy you have cart after horse people work it out and make dash. | Dec 21 16:16 |
| oiaohm | This is kinda how it works. | Dec 21 16:16 |
| MinceR | yet nobody is using dirty tricks to force either bash or dash on anyone, somehow | Dec 21 16:17 |
| MinceR | if you honestly believe systemd, kdbus and wayland are so great, why not let people choose what they like? | Dec 21 16:17 |
| MinceR | if they're so great, everyone will use them, right? | Dec 21 16:17 |
| oiaohm | To be correct bash extentions were forced into because lot of applications wrote sysvinit scripts that depended on them. | Dec 21 16:17 |
| MinceR | why try to crush dissent? | Dec 21 16:18 |
| MinceR | and when did runit, upstart or daemontools start using sysvinit scripts? | Dec 21 16:18 |
| MinceR | (and i could keep going) | Dec 21 16:18 |
| oiaohm | upstart did from the start. | Dec 21 16:18 |
| oiaohm | At the cost of stablity at times. | Dec 21 16:18 |
| MinceR | when did having a sysvinit script preclude you from starting a daemon without using that script? | Dec 21 16:18 |
| MinceR | well yes, upstart is a broken mess | Dec 21 16:18 |
| MinceR | but systemd makes upstart look good | Dec 21 16:19 |
| oiaohm | upstart was never going to get the profesional server maintaince people to work on it due to Ubuntu contributer agreement. | Dec 21 16:19 |
| MinceR | and what good are the Professional Server Maintenance People at ratcrap? | Dec 21 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Its those professional service maintaince people who are now talking about reworking large sections of systemd. | Dec 21 16:20 |
| MinceR | they don't have a single software engineer among them | Dec 21 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Sorry don't be insulting. | Dec 21 16:20 |
| MinceR | any software engineer would have told you that cohesion is not just a myth unix people came up with | Dec 21 16:20 |
| oiaohm | They do have software engineers. That is the thing. | Dec 21 16:20 |
| MinceR | software engineers that don't know it's a bad idea to stuff unrelated components together? | Dec 21 16:21 |
| MinceR | software engineers that don't know it's a bad idea to write cryptic, undocumented code? | Dec 21 16:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: everything you are saying again is covered in the systemd conference video. | Dec 21 16:21 |
| MinceR | i'm sure | Dec 21 16:21 |
| oiaohm | They argree absolutely that stuff has to be fixed. | Dec 21 16:21 |
| MinceR | does poettering ask for forgiveness for fucking up debian? | Dec 21 16:21 |
| MinceR | do they admit it was a mistake to pretend that they were peddling broken shit for over 4 years? | Dec 21 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Even against poettering it was funny to watch poettering eatting humble pie in one video. | Dec 21 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Over not allowing particular dbus fixes in. | Dec 21 16:22 |
| MinceR | did they commit to fixing their attitude? | Dec 21 16:22 |
| oiaohm | Percentage of all groups in software development have bad attitude. | Dec 21 16:22 |
| MinceR | claiming that they'll patch their code eventually is not sufficient | Dec 21 16:22 |
| MinceR | how many of those groups have succeeded at nearly killing unix? | Dec 21 16:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you really need to watch the humble pie video. | Dec 21 16:23 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: actions speak louder than words. | Dec 21 16:23 |
| MinceR | where's my _stable_ debian/raspbian 8? | Dec 21 16:23 |
| cubexyz | no one killed unix | Dec 21 16:29 |
| MinceR | also, where's the guarantee that next time a cult tries to destroy unix they're actually stopped in time? | Dec 21 16:29 |
| cubexyz | the BSDs are still plugging away | Dec 21 16:29 |
| MinceR | not for lack of trying by ratcrap | Dec 21 16:29 |
| MinceR | yes, and some of them already discussed adopting launchd and systemd APIs | Dec 21 16:29 |
| cubexyz | the OpenBSD folks are pretty conservative | Dec 21 16:31 |
| cubexyz | there is no launchd in OpenBSD :) | Dec 21 16:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly what is unstable about Debian 8 using systemd. This has been the funny thing. Lot of noise about systemd being end of earth when it not. | Dec 21 16:33 |
| MinceR | debian 8 forces systemd by default, and removes other packages if you tell it to remove systemd | Dec 21 16:33 |
| MinceR | debian forcing unstable sw to be used by default in a "stable" release means that release is not stable | Dec 21 16:34 |
| MinceR | debian is not stable, it is not universal, it is not free anymore | Dec 21 16:34 |
| cubexyz | opacity and complexity are assoicated with "modernity", which is silly | Dec 21 16:34 |
| MinceR | all this happened because of entryism from ratcrap and the lendows cult | Dec 21 16:34 |
| MinceR | making a show of admitting they were wrong isn't bringing back what they destroyed | Dec 21 16:35 |
| MinceR | and i doubt they're even sincerely doing that | Dec 21 16:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: just a case if you not know what you are doing. https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim guess why this exists. | Dec 21 16:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://packages.debian.org/jessie/systemd-shim ) | Dec 21 16:35 | |
| MinceR | yeah, it's my fault | Dec 21 16:35 |
| oiaohm | core of systemd is removable. | Dec 21 16:35 |
| MinceR | it exists to have you use systemd parts and APIs even if you try to not use systemd | Dec 21 16:35 |
| cubexyz | there was an earlier init schism: BSD vs SysV | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | i don't want to remove the core | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | i want to remove the whole thing | Dec 21 16:36 |
| cubexyz | we survived that | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | i never asked for any part of systemd | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | i wanted to use a free unix, not a nonfree windows imitation. | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: both of those are mature and work well | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also, you can swap one out for the other and for yet others | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | cancerd hooks itself into your system with a million tentacles | Dec 21 16:36 |
| MinceR | they know it's unusable shit, so they try to deprive you of the power to remove it | Dec 21 16:37 |
| cubexyz | I can use a push lawnmower if I want... you can't really force new tech on me :) | Dec 21 16:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so if lets say they had named it as some other library put in a independ repository you most likely would not have cared right? | Dec 21 16:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if it was an independent library that didn't affect other software, i likely would not have cared much | Dec 21 16:37 |
| MinceR | maybe if it resulted in its dependents getting noticeably heavy, i would have abandoned them for alternatives eventually | Dec 21 16:38 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: unfortunately, it is not an independent library | Dec 21 16:38 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: effectively what the shim does i build the bare min library parts to keep applications attempting to use systemd libraries happy. | Dec 21 16:38 |
| MinceR | it's something like a second kernel that demands to run as pid1, and a bunch of daemons you must have, along with dbus | Dec 21 16:38 |
| MinceR | and dbus is crap as well | Dec 21 16:38 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: those applications demand too much | Dec 21 16:39 |
| oiaohm | The shim does not demard pid1 or lots of dbus crap. | Dec 21 16:39 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: also, most of them can still be built to not depend on this crap | Dec 21 16:39 |
| MinceR | it's just that the pod people at debian no longer care | Dec 21 16:39 |
| MinceR | they're catering to the people who want debian to be a fedora with a different logo and name first | Dec 21 16:39 |
| oiaohm | Sorry building them not to care requires upstream alterations. | Dec 21 16:39 |
| MinceR | and people who want something workable second, or never | Dec 21 16:39 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the upstreams have been pricks. | Dec 21 16:40 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: i guess that means devuan folks are practicing magic | Dec 21 16:40 |
| MinceR | since they have already fixed several debian packages to not need systemd | Dec 21 16:40 |
| oiaohm | devuan have kept most of the libraries. | Dec 21 16:40 |
| oiaohm | Just put the libraries under a differnet package name. | Dec 21 16:40 |
| oiaohm | Lets just say you have been slide of handed MinceR | Dec 21 16:40 |
| MinceR | yes, i have been tricked into believing that what i'm doing with debian 7 every day is possible! | Dec 21 16:41 |
| oiaohm | The applications could have been coded to use dlopen on systemd libraries and if they were missing function anyhow. | Dec 21 16:41 |
| MinceR | "you can't do X without systemd!" -- yet here i am, doing it without systemd | Dec 21 16:41 |
| MinceR | must be my fault | Dec 21 16:41 |
| MinceR | dlopen can fail without aborting the process | Dec 21 16:42 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Dec 21 16:42 |
| MinceR | that's not the issue with debian | Dec 21 16:42 |
| oiaohm | Upstream projects implmeenting systemd support have been horible | Dec 21 16:42 |
| oiaohm | Like if you don't have systemd flaged on the upstream project not building/providing unit files. You turn it on links the systemd libraries straight on so they must be exist or service will not load. | Dec 21 16:44 |
| MinceR | then it's easy to fix | Dec 21 16:45 |
| MinceR | tell the upstream project to not use systemd at configure time | Dec 21 16:45 |
| oiaohm | And detect presense at runtime and act correctly if it present. Like you want to use watchdog timer if it provided and the like on particular services. | Dec 21 16:46 |
| MinceR | no, act as if it isn't present at runtime | Dec 21 16:46 |
| MinceR | regardless | Dec 21 16:46 |
| MinceR | if the lendows people want their shiny shit, they can: a) use fedora b) use windows c) build a systemd-dependent package with a different name | Dec 21 16:47 |
| oiaohm | Watchdog code is not uniform. So acting like systemd is not there means supporting 14 different solutions. | Dec 21 16:47 |
| oiaohm | This is one case of a missing library. | Dec 21 16:47 |
| MinceR | i don't see why they have to fuck things up for all professional users to accommodate their broken hipster crap | Dec 21 16:47 |
| MinceR | or simply not expecting it at all | Dec 21 16:48 |
| oiaohm | Also systemd is in places trimming down. http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2015-June/032621.html | Dec 21 16:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.freedesktop.org | [systemd-devel] [PATCH] mount: use libmount to monitor mountinfo &utab [ http://ur1.ca/ocscn ] | Dec 21 16:48 | |
| MinceR | nobody asked for the pointless "modern" "features" poettering came up with to justify fucking up unix for us. | Dec 21 16:48 |
| oiaohm | Like dropping out there own mount monitoring code and going back to common core. | Dec 21 16:48 |
| MinceR | ooh, they've trimmed a few grams of fat from the sun-sized blob of bloat! | Dec 21 16:48 |
| MinceR | notice that my complaint was not that cancerd was just a tiny bit too bloated | Dec 21 16:49 |
| MinceR | and afaik nobody's complaint was that | Dec 21 16:49 |
| MinceR | there's another thing | Dec 21 16:49 |
| oiaohm | Part of trimming systemd down is waking up some of the reason its bloated in places is no defined interfaces for stacks of things. | Dec 21 16:49 |
| oiaohm | They were not defined before systemd either. | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | once poettering decides that dnf/rpm could also be nicely built into systemd, debian will be mandated to switch package managers | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | what distinction between fedora and debian will remain then? | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | for what do they have to fuck up debian if all they wanted was in fedora already? | Dec 21 16:50 |
| oiaohm | Interesting enough RPM is a warped on. | Dec 21 16:50 |
| oiaohm | on/one | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | remember, package managers were often attacked as a main point of diversity (they call it "fragmentation") between distros | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | that must be standardized | Dec 21 16:50 |
| MinceR | like the rest of cancerd | Dec 21 16:51 |
| MinceR | if they want the One True Distro which they already have, why kill off all the others? | Dec 21 16:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: http://rpm5.org/ supports RPM and Deb packages. | Dec 21 16:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-rpm5.org | rpm package manager | Dec 21 16:51 | |
| MinceR | so what? | Dec 21 16:52 |
| MinceR | it's still an unreliable broken piece of shit | Dec 21 16:52 |
| MinceR | especially with YUM or DNF | Dec 21 16:52 |
| MinceR | they pretend running "transactions" but if it breaks, you have no way to roll back out of it | Dec 21 16:52 |
| MinceR | all they do is prevent you from doing any package management until you reinstall the whole system | Dec 21 16:53 |
| oiaohm | The idea with allowing so many Linux Distrobutions to exist in the first place is the the strong would in the end kill of the weaker. | Dec 21 16:54 |
| MinceR | and apparently it's a microsoftesque definition of "strong" and "weak" | Dec 21 16:54 |
| MinceR | doesn't matter if debian 7 was a lot more mature, stable and usable than any ratcrap distro | Dec 21 16:54 |
| MinceR | they didn't have the leverage over gnome and gnome had all the leverage over them | Dec 21 16:54 |
| MinceR | so debian had to die | Dec 21 16:54 |
| MinceR | also, i didn't know it was up to some asshole like gates or poettering to "allow" distros to exist | Dec 21 16:55 |
| oiaohm | systemd is nothing more than a Linux world natural selection trigger. | Dec 21 16:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: exactly what stops systemd from being replaced in future. | Dec 21 16:56 |
| oiaohm | The answer is nothing more than enough will. | Dec 21 16:56 |
| oiaohm | Its not like sysvinit was a perfect fit. | Dec 21 16:57 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: the numerous dependencies on it in various DEs and applications; and the secret APIs | Dec 21 16:57 |
| MinceR | compared to systemd or upstart, sysvinit was indeed perfect | Dec 21 16:57 |
| oiaohm | the secret api idea does not hold with systemd. | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | what makes you think that entryism and abuse of leverage is "natural"? | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | sure, they tell you some of their APIs are stable | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | but then they go ahead and change them | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | and their own stuff doesn't only use the APIs they call stable | Dec 21 16:58 |
| oiaohm | Not true again. | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | pretty much the same as microsoft | Dec 21 16:58 |
| MinceR | then go ask the guy who tried to develop loginkit. | Dec 21 16:59 |
| oiaohm | The API/ABI systemd has declared stable has stayed that way. | Dec 21 16:59 |
| MinceR | what APIs did GDM try to use. | Dec 21 16:59 |
| MinceR | yeah, right | Dec 21 16:59 |
| oiaohm | Problem is the percentage declared stable is still very small. | Dec 21 16:59 |
| MinceR | and the tooth fairy exists too, right? | Dec 21 16:59 |
| oiaohm | No MinceR | Dec 21 16:59 |
| oiaohm | Its not that they are breaking the ABI declared stable. | Dec 21 16:59 |
| MinceR | iirc that happened too | Dec 21 17:00 |
| oiaohm | Its the case very little of the systemd ABI has been declared stable. | Dec 21 17:00 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you did out what has been declared you will find every case has been using something not declared. | Dec 21 17:00 |
| MinceR | so, you admit that most of the API you're not supposed to use | Dec 21 17:00 |
| MinceR | and yet gnome uses it | Dec 21 17:00 |
| MinceR | which company's practices does this remind you of? | Dec 21 17:00 |
| oiaohm | Problem is you want to say microsoft alone but just look at all the applications using boost and the like. | Dec 21 17:01 |
| MinceR | i don't know much about boost | Dec 21 17:01 |
| oiaohm | There are a huge number of libraries that are offically 100 percent unstable abi yet tones of programs use it. | Dec 21 17:02 |
| MinceR | which of them are forced on users? | Dec 21 17:02 |
| MinceR | and who pretends that this is a good thing in those cases? | Dec 21 17:02 |
| MinceR | because there are plenty of people pretending that cancerd is a good thing | Dec 21 17:02 |
| MinceR | even here | Dec 21 17:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: boost is one of the most common reasons why you cannot install old and new packages with each other. | Dec 21 17:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: under debian. | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | i'm pretty sure it can be done | Dec 21 17:03 |
| oiaohm | Because the bugger is 100 percent unstable abi between versions. | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | for one thing, there's static linking | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | for another thing, an application can bring its shared objects with itself | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | it can even let the user decide whether to use those or the system-wide ones | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | this has been done before | Dec 21 17:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: package makers use dynamic linking on libraries with documented unstable ABI to allow secuirty updating. | Dec 21 17:03 |
| oiaohm | And not install the libraries in split directories either. | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | you can't eat your cake and have it too | Dec 21 17:03 |
| MinceR | you'll either upgrade to new library versions or keep using the old ones | Dec 21 17:04 |
| MinceR | for every applications | Dec 21 17:04 |
| MinceR | s/ns/n/ | Dec 21 17:04 |
| oiaohm | Basically its not a systemd only problem to have under defined stable ABI MinceR | Dec 21 17:04 |
| MinceR | again the excuses | Dec 21 17:04 |
| MinceR | "look, they do it too!" | Dec 21 17:04 |
| MinceR | what unstable APIs does sysvinit use? | Dec 21 17:05 |
| oiaohm | There are about 4 libraries GDM uses that are unstable ABI. | Dec 21 17:05 |
| oiaohm | only 1 releates to systemd. | Dec 21 17:05 |
| MinceR | what unstable APIs do udev, [x]inetd, crond, atd, syslogd, firewalls, bootloaders, dns caches, webservers, container provisioners and ntpd use? | Dec 21 17:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so there are bigger problems here. | Dec 21 17:06 |
| MinceR | so yeah, gnome is crap outside of its cancerd dependencies too | Dec 21 17:06 |
| MinceR | doesn't mean that their cancerd dependencies are fine | Dec 21 17:06 |
| oiaohm | What it means is gnome goes ahead and ingores documentation of what is stable with a library. | Dec 21 17:06 |
| MinceR | i don't see many bigger problems than the attempt to kill off unix here | Dec 21 17:06 |
| MinceR | the attempt to kill the general purpose computer off is one | Dec 21 17:07 |
| MinceR | and guess what, deadrat is involved in that too! | Dec 21 17:07 |
| MinceR | it will of course most likely kill them too, but they are either too stupid to realize this or too evil to care | Dec 21 17:07 |
| oiaohm | Please remember Linux has most of the time not been Unix. | Dec 21 17:08 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and whose payroll are the gnome people (who also forced debian to force systemd on its users) on? | Dec 21 17:08 |
| MinceR | please remember that gnu/linux was more unix than lendows ever will be. | Dec 21 17:08 |
| oiaohm | systemd with Linux is closer to SMF under solaris. | Dec 21 17:09 |
| MinceR | only to SMF that runs in pid1 | Dec 21 17:09 |
| oiaohm | So it comes down to what you define as Unix. | Dec 21 17:09 |
| MinceR | which is, again, not following the unix philosophy | Dec 21 17:09 |
| MinceR | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy | Dec 21 17:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Unix philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 21 17:10 | |
| oiaohm | Everything called unix has not followed Unix Philosphy at different times. | Dec 21 17:10 |
| oiaohm | Unix Philosphy is guide lines not absolute rules. | Dec 21 17:10 |
| MinceR | is that an excuse to abandon the whole thing and adopt the winblows philosophy instead? | Dec 21 17:10 |
| oiaohm | Really you say Windows philosophy. NT does offically have a philosophy and systemd is no where close to it. | Dec 21 17:11 |
| MinceR | then they're not following it | Dec 21 17:11 |
| MinceR | does this mean that NT should become unix and unix should become windows? | Dec 21 17:11 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architecture_of_Windows_NT#/media/File:Windows_2000_architecture.svg Look closely at the shape of that. | Dec 21 17:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | Architecture of Windows NT - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [ http://ur1.ca/ocsdj ] | Dec 21 17:12 | |
| MinceR | does that account for the extreme dependency on the win32 subsystem? | Dec 21 17:13 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Dec 21 17:13 |
| MinceR | they introduced that pretty early, abandoning their own design | Dec 21 17:13 |
| MinceR | i can see the massive amounts of crap in kernel mode | Dec 21 17:13 |
| MinceR | and the pretense of being stuff outside the "microkernel" | Dec 21 17:13 |
| MinceR | like crApple, m$ loves to throw the word "microkernel" around | Dec 21 17:14 |
| MinceR | without having any clue about what it means | Dec 21 17:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: look at that diagram. | Dec 21 17:14 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there is a Microkernel inside NT. | Dec 21 17:14 |
| MinceR | no, there is not | Dec 21 17:14 |
| oiaohm | O yes there is. | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | they've pointed at a small portion of the code that runs in kernel mode (also known as the kernel) and proclaimed that to be the kernel | Dec 21 17:15 |
| oiaohm | Just it has a huge monolitch excitive sitting on top of it. | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | that doesn't make that the kernel | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | much less a "microkernel" | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | microkernel architecture is not about lying about what runs in kernel mode | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | it's about minimizing the amount of stuff that runs in kernel mode | Dec 21 17:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: it has been done where Windows developers has run the core without the exectivie. | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | not the same thing! | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: doesn't make any difference. | Dec 21 17:15 |
| MinceR | can you run winblows applications without this massive amount of bloat in kernel mode? | Dec 21 17:16 |
| oiaohm | It is possible to move the exective in NT to userspace. | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | but nothing will work with it | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | and they have never done it | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | so again it's irrelevant | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | it's possible to implement a microkernel system | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | that doesn't make winblows a microkernel system | Dec 21 17:16 |
| oiaohm | NT first version executive is in userspace. | Dec 21 17:16 |
| MinceR | did they even sell that to anyone? | Dec 21 17:16 |
| oiaohm | Yes they did. | Dec 21 17:17 |
| MinceR | afaik they went "herp derp let's run the whole gui in kernel mode because that will make it so fast!" pretty early | Dec 21 17:17 |
| oiaohm | But it was review as been slow as hell. | Dec 21 17:17 |
| MinceR | (it didn't make it fast, only unstable) | Dec 21 17:17 |
| MinceR | funny thing | Dec 21 17:17 |
| MinceR | gnu/linux could run x in userspace, along with the rest of gui | Dec 21 17:17 |
| MinceR | and it was faster than winblows running most of it in the kernel | Dec 21 17:17 |
| oiaohm | Like it or not NT is a microkernel design with the basic Microkernel ring secury thrown away. | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | shows you the "skill" of m$ code monkeys | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | (i won't call them software engineers, as they aren't engineers) | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | no, NT is not a microkernel design | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | it's the usual m$/crApple marketroid trickery | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | trying to call an extremely bloated kernel a "microkernel" | Dec 21 17:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem here is microkernel design does not demard ring seperation. | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | if you abuse words like that, they'll lose all meaning | Dec 21 17:18 |
| MinceR | might as well claim there's no kernel at all | Dec 21 17:19 |
| MinceR | might as well call kernel space "user space" | Dec 21 17:19 |
| MinceR | might as well call all rings "ring 3" | Dec 21 17:19 |
| oiaohm | Some cpus you don't have memory management unit supporting rings. | Dec 21 17:19 |
| oiaohm | so all memory space is the same ring. | Dec 21 17:19 |
| MinceR | is that an excuse for putting the GUI in the kernel? | Dec 21 17:20 |
| oiaohm | Putting some GUI things in kernel make sense. Putting as much a Windows does not. | Dec 21 17:20 |
| oiaohm | Putting kernel mode setting in kernel space so kernel can change video card mode to display error messages if kernel panics does make sense. | Dec 21 17:21 |
| MinceR | puttig some gui things in kernel mode and calling the result a "microkernel" makes the whole idea of a microkernel pointless | Dec 21 17:21 |
| MinceR | s/ig/ing/ | Dec 21 17:21 |
| MinceR | that's not what m$ did, though | Dec 21 17:21 |
| MinceR | also, i don't see why you need a GUI to display an error message | Dec 21 17:21 |
| MinceR | TUI would do it much more reliably | Dec 21 17:21 |
| oiaohm | Putting video card memory management in kernel space so you don't have userspace instances accessing each other memory makes sense. | Dec 21 17:21 |
| oiaohm | But Windows puts lots more than that in kernel space. | Dec 21 17:22 |
| oiaohm | TUI in kernel space of the Linux kernel has been one of the largest security nightmares. | Dec 21 17:22 |
| MinceR | it makes sense, but it is not a microkernel architecture | Dec 21 17:22 |
| MinceR | >largest | Dec 21 17:23 |
| MinceR | [citation needed] | Dec 21 17:23 |
| MinceR | if you juxtapose winblows and linux, such a thing doesn't even get close to being a "security nightmare" | Dec 21 17:23 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: KMSCON experenetation come out of the terminal code in kernel space being repeating hosting of flaws. | Dec 21 17:23 |
| MinceR | when the other OS is full of backdoors that download and execute arbitrary code, for example to patch their DRM implementation | Dec 21 17:24 |
| MinceR | (read the winblows EULA, they've been reserving the rights to do this for quite some time) | Dec 21 17:24 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: at least having terminal handling in the kernel means you might be able to fix the system when systemd shits itself | Dec 21 17:24 |
| MinceR | having it in systemd means if systemd shits itself all you can do is reboot and hope | Dec 21 17:24 |
| MinceR | poettering loves to reboot anyway | Dec 21 17:25 |
| MinceR | even dbus was "designed" to require reboot to restart | Dec 21 17:25 |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 17:25 | |
| MinceR | none of these toys are usable in a critical environment | Dec 21 17:25 |
| MinceR | with the vista10 botnet, spyware and malware "features", linux is very far from a "security nightmare" | Dec 21 17:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: moving the console code to userspace means if it buffer overflowed or otherwise stupid you don't kernel panic the complete system. | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | remember, m$ admits they turn their spyware back on even if you disable them | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | yeah, you merely end up with a computer you can't use anymore | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | since you have no display and no input | Dec 21 17:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: vt console change can be kernel mode even with a KMScon. | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | this sort of stuff makes openbsd all the more inviting | Dec 21 17:27 |
| oiaohm | So instead of losng everything you lose 1 screen and can swiitch away. | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: so you can switch to another console that won't display anything and won't take any input? | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | i've heard poettering's cult wants to remove virtual console support too | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | probably because winblows can't switch consoles, therefore it must be heresy to allow it | Dec 21 17:28 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers not agreeing with vt removal. | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | depends on which | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | with idiots like kay sievers and m$ employees having code in the kernel... | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | poettering too, iirc | Dec 21 17:28 |
| oiaohm | virtual console and vt are different things. | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | (ironically, the m$ code hardcodes /etc/init.d/networking restart or something like that, which won't work on cancerd | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | ) | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | yeah, but without vt nothing will appear on the vc | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | might as well be playing with a rock | Dec 21 17:29 |
| oiaohm | Not exact true. fblog that prints out kernel error messages does not use vc | Dec 21 17:30 |
| MinceR | can you recover the system with fblog? | Dec 21 17:30 |
| oiaohm | fblog is to print out when you have hit kernel panic or system has not inited yet. | Dec 21 17:30 |
| MinceR | will it give you a root shell? | Dec 21 17:31 |
| oiaohm | To be correct fblog will work even without vt or means of using a graphical shell. fblog will cope with just a printer as output. | Dec 21 17:32 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 17:32 | |
| oiaohm | To be correct shell at all. | Dec 21 17:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to use a root shell you need a virtual console of some form. Ether linux kernel virtual console or kmscon or like xterm | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | and if the kernel doesn't have it anymore and kmscon crashes, you're screwe | Dec 21 17:34 |
| oiaohm | Basically I don't see any particularly good reason for the virtual console code to be running in ring 0. | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | d | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | especially if it's integrated into systemd, because why wouldn't they miss an opportunity like this? | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | i don't see any assurance that it will be reliable at all once it's moved out of the kernel | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | If the console code is in ring 1 2 or 3 instead of 1 a reset could be attempted. | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | especially considering that it will likely end up in systemd | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | opps instead of 0 | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | and most likely in pid1 | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | so you can't even restart it if it crashes | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | Really even if virtual console was still built into kernel it still could be operationally run as lower rings. | Dec 21 17:36 |
| oiaohm | But that is redesign it. | Dec 21 17:36 |
| MinceR | maybe you could even have a fallback console in ring0 that only starts if the usermode thing failed | Dec 21 17:37 |
| MinceR | maybe via magic sysrq | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | Really there is no reason for the fall back console to be in ring 0 | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | only thing you need it in ring 0 is blit to screen. | Dec 21 17:37 |
| MinceR | wouldn't make much of a difference in that case | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | Remember console is taking random crap from keyboard input and other things. | Dec 21 17:38 |
| oiaohm | Basically its facing fuss testing. | Dec 21 17:38 |
| MinceR | fuzzing | Dec 21 17:38 |
| oiaohm | console is something I see as an item that should not be in ring 0 | Dec 21 17:39 |
| oiaohm | some of the complex network code of the Linux kernel is pushed into lower rings for the same reason. | Dec 21 17:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes networking code of linux provide the precentant even if it built into the kernel that it might not be run as ring 0 | Dec 21 17:40 |
| oiaohm | VC either thrown out of kernel or made run at a sane ring level where possible. | Dec 21 17:41 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 17:43 | |
| msb__ | MinceR: hello? | Dec 21 18:10 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 21 18:13 |
| msb__ | Arguing with oiaohm is a waste of time. He's some kind of agent, or is brainwashed. | Dec 21 18:15 |
| MinceR | it's sometimes interesting | Dec 21 18:16 |
| msb__ | Using and developing good old sysvinit Linux is interesting. Arguing about cancerd is sickening. At least to me. | Dec 21 18:17 |
| msb__ | You have said that most people want to destroy themselves. But it's not true. People have been programmed to do destructive things. | Dec 21 18:18 |
| msb__ | Like adopting systemd. | Dec 21 18:18 |
| msb__ | The world is mostly run by a loose conglomerate of ultra-wealthy psychopaths. They murder millions of people for power and profit. And they program most people to believe what they're told and obey. | Dec 21 18:19 |
| msb__ | systemd is a project of the psychopath rulers. | Dec 21 18:20 |
| msb__ | They want to destr0y Linux because Linux helps people to be free. | Dec 21 18:21 |
| msb__ | hello? | Dec 21 18:23 |
| msb__ | MinceR: Can you focus your mind on anything other than cancerd and putin? | Dec 21 18:24 |
| msb__ | Like trying to understand how the world actually works? | Dec 21 18:25 |
| MinceR | i can | Dec 21 18:27 |
| MinceR | for example, now i'm focusing on choosing new maps for my xonotic server :> | Dec 21 18:28 |
| msb__ | A computer game | Dec 21 18:36 |
| msb__ | A couple times recently my screen has gone all black and is unresponsive. I thought I had to reboot, but today I tried going to a text console and that worked. | Dec 21 18:38 |
| msb__ | I think my script for using mplayer to play from my tv card gets hung up, and if it's full-screen then I get the problem. | Dec 21 18:39 |
| msb__ | but I was able to kill it off from a text console, and get back with ctrl-alt-F7 and everything was ok. | Dec 21 18:40 |
| msb__ | Linux is very versatile. If I'd been running systemd it would probably have told me I have to buy a new computer. | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd disappoints me | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | I used to hear it's for speed | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | but it's slower for me | Dec 21 18:41 |
| MinceR | you're not the only one | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | and then when I say it only "camp systemd" says it's a fallacy, it was never for speed | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | then what the F* is it for? | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | redhat world domination | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | oh, and "modern"ity | Dec 21 18:42 |
| msb__ | It's purpose is to ruin Linux. | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > systemd took ~5 minutes to boot on one of our SOCs running fedora | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > ubuntu took ~30 seconds | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > it was using upstart iirc | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd doesn't even start things in the right order here | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | gotta boot fest | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and some said online it doesn't even shut them down right | Dec 21 18:43 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | causing deadlocks and crap | Dec 21 18:43 |
| msb__ | The ultra-wealthy psychopaths who control most of the world want to get rid of Linux, because it helps people communicate. | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | 2015: and we have bugs so basic, like killing the connection before closing sockets | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and they're railroading this crap into "stable" releases | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | KDE starts my applications now before it even starts plasma-shell | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | so I start with an empty blank desktop | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | both in 15:04 and 15:10 | Dec 21 18:44 |
| msb__ | It would be great to find out how maintainers of good distros like debian and suse were motivated to adopt systemd, but if you ask, all you get is ridicule. | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | later on.... voila... I actually feel like it's not a black screen of death because applications SLOWLY show upo | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | and at the end I got wallpapers and menus, maybe a minute later | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | welcomd to KDE 1 | Dec 21 18:45 |
| MinceR | afaik redhat used their control over gnome to make gnome depend on it, then had the gnome people pressure debian to adopt systemd | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | or something crappy like that... at least the KDE apps weren't broken | Dec 21 18:45 |
| MinceR | the TC acted weirdly | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | some upgraded to qt5, not bad.... though Dolphin is SHI***t | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | More SHH***TE than it was in KDE 4.0 | Dec 21 18:46 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: try trinity | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | It's not even a file manager | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | it's like some comp. sci. 1st year project | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | with qt | Dec 21 18:46 |
| msb__ | and mc for a file manager | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | i went back to mc | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | small, fast, works better with the keyboard with pretty much any GUI | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | I think it was abandoned and nobody properly took over it | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | after they had effectively killed konqueror | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | and works well over network connections | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | which was a LOT more powerful than dolphin EVER was | Dec 21 18:47 |
| msb__ | mc even works in text consoles | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: I would try Trinity, but need an old base | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | the latest bases are system-infested | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | *temd | Dec 21 18:47 |
| msb__ | in fact, mplayer plays videos in text consoles! uses fbdev | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | This is the WORST KDE experience ever | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | both 15.04 and 15.10 fully patched | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | worse than kde in 2000 | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | which I used on hardware that's only good for digital photo frames these days | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | vlc sometimes takes 20 secs to start on this system | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | dual core 2+ghz | Dec 21 18:49 |
| r_schestowitz | so something, somewhere seriously makes this system "experimental" quality | Dec 21 18:49 |
| msb__ | cubexyz recommends q4os, which had a maintenance release a couple weeks ago. | Dec 21 18:50 |
| msb__ | q4os.org | Dec 21 18:50 |
| msb__ | maybe trinity runs on it | Dec 21 18:50 |
| MinceR | i recommend perusing the list at http://without-systemd.org/ | Dec 21 18:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 21 18:51 | |
| msb__ | cubexyz: Which DE does q4os use? | Dec 21 18:53 |
| msb__ | It has a link to trinity. Maybe that's what it uses! | Dec 21 18:54 |
| msb__ | There's a #q4os channel, but nobody in it. | Dec 21 19:06 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:21 | |
| *r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 19:27 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:28 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 21 19:28 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:28 | |
| cubexyz | q4os uses trinity or icewm probably other ones too | Dec 21 21:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity by default | Dec 21 21:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity built-in was the main reason why I tried q4os | Dec 21 21:32 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-2015.png | Dec 21 21:35 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 21 22:26 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 21 23:04 | |
| *amarsh04_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 23:30 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 23:32 | |
| *Disconnected (). | Dec 22 00:38 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 00:38:01 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 00:39:18 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 22 00:39 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 22 00:39 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 22 00:39 | |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Read error: Connection timed out) | Dec 22 00:51 | |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 22 01:38 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 22 01:41 | |
| msb__ | cubexyz: Hello? | Dec 22 01:56 |
| msb__ | The purpose of systemd: http://dilbert.com/strip/2015-12-20 | Dec 22 06:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dilbert.com | Dilbert Comic Strip on 2015-12-20 | Dilbert by Scott Adams | Dec 22 06:37 | |
| amarsh04 | sounds about right, msb__ | Dec 22 07:20 |
| msb__ | Of course, rapid activation of the polyphase quasitron is essential also. | Dec 22 07:29 |
| amarsh04 | well, I've just had to start xfce on the other machine, still waiting for this fix to arrive in Debian: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=356580 | Dec 22 07:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.kde.org | Bug 356580 – startplasmacompositor - kwin_wayland - "/usr/lib/startplasma" - hangs at "start_kdeinit_wrapper" | Dec 22 07:41 | |
| amarsh04 | back later... | Dec 22 07:42 |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 22 07:56 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 08:02 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6923467 | Dec 22 09:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: "The Finish company" http://news.softpedia.com/news/jolla-and-the-linux-based-sailfish-os-survive-financial-problems-497914.shtml an irony in this typo because #jolla was almost finished | Dec 22 09:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> news.softpedia.com | Jolla and the Linux-Based Sailfish OS Survive Financial Problems [ http://ur1.ca/oct6j ] | Dec 22 09:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Well, as much as I hope they succeed, I’m not holding my breath until I see them return a reasonable profit and ROI." | Dec 22 09:07 |
| r_schestowitz | "Need a Respects Your Freedom phone. | Dec 22 09:07 |
| r_schestowitz | A lot of this phone is proprietary | Dec 22 09:07 |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6920995 | Dec 22 09:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Jide Remix Mini #Android Desktop PC Review: Interesting Software Let Down By Bargain-Bin Hardware http://www.androidpolice.com/2015/12/19/jide-remix-mini-android-desktop-pc-review-interesting-software-let-down-by-bargain-bin-hardware/ | Dec 22 09:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.androidpolice.com | Jide Remix Mini Android Desktop PC Review: Interesting Software Let Down By Bargain-Bin Hardware [ http://ur1.ca/oct6k ] | Dec 22 09:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Not the most powerful device, but I got two brand new at $30 each so it was worth it. The audio out port is nice, it beats out the Roku I have which does audio over HDMI, which means if your screen turns off so does audio. I’d say the remix mini has its’ niche, but a more powerful version would really improve its’ marketability." | Dec 22 09:07 |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921996 | Dec 22 09:08 |
| r_schestowitz | " | Dec 22 09:08 |
| r_schestowitz | he thing is, prime numbers are still generally calculated based on our base 10 number system, which comes out of our own historical 10 digits on our hands. | Dec 22 09:08 |
| r_schestowitz | Are aliens really likely to just happen to have the same number system, without the same biology? If not, they’re going to have different prime numbers than us. | Dec 22 09:08 |
| r_schestowitz | " | Dec 22 09:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/219570-what-are-prime-numbers-and-why-are-they-so-vital-to-modern-life "Modern encryption algorithms exploit the fact" | Dec 22 09:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.extremetech.com | What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? | ExtremeTech [ http://ur1.ca/oct6m ] | Dec 22 09:08 | |
| r_schestowitz | Octal is bar better, or hexadecimal | Dec 22 09:08 |
| amarsh04 | decimal has the advantage that you can instantly tell if a number is divisible by 10 or its factors of 2 and 5, or with a little more effort if a number is divisible by 3 or 11 | Dec 22 09:13 |
| amarsh04 | but all that is irrelevant to whether a number is prime or not | Dec 22 09:14 |
| r_schestowitz | > "The Role of Corporate and Government Surveillance in Shifting | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > Journalistic Information Security Practices" | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://mshelt.onl/p/shelton_2015.pdf | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | > UC Irvine, but not a UCI link... | Dec 22 09:15 |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > "The donation box is full of small | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt." | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.195604.7ee1f6f7.en.html | Dec 22 09:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 09:25 | |
| r_schestowitz | > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.203527.4cce477b.en.html | Dec 22 09:25 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 09:25 | |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | > Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering? | Dec 22 09:25 |
| r_schestowitz | Been giving me nothing but pain, technically. Ruining the desktop. | Dec 22 09:25 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: There is one huge loose conspiracy of ultra-wealthy psychopaths that controls the Western world and its allies. | Dec 22 09:30 |
| msb__ | They are behind systemd. They were behind 9-11. They destroyed socialist Libya. They murdered 2 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq. They installed a Nazi govt in Ukraine. | Dec 22 09:31 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: Think! Cui bono? All of these things benefit the ultra-wealthy owners of weapons companies and banks. All of them are pushed by wealthy owners of corporate news media. | Dec 22 09:33 |
| msb__ | The govts of the US are totally bribed by the ultra-wealthy. | Dec 22 09:33 |
| msb__ | If you only think of these things separately (which is what they want you to do), then you don't see how they're related. | Dec 22 09:34 |
| msb__ | But it's really very simple. All of these tragedies for the people make huge profits for ultra-wealthy psychopaths. | Dec 22 09:35 |
| msb__ | Psychopaths readily rob, harm and kill other people to benefit themselves. | Dec 22 09:35 |
| msb__ | That | Dec 22 09:35 |
| msb__ | That's what's been going on throughout the 20th and 21st centuries! | Dec 22 09:36 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: If you think I'm wrong, make your objections. | Dec 22 09:38 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/infosecretwit/status/679231630867898368 | Dec 22 09:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@infosecretwit: https://t.co/5IeGUcQvKu CVE-2015-7755: Juniper ScreenOS Authentication Backdoor https://t.co/XUaGgqUEyL #juniper betrayed many, could hav… | Dec 22 09:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: CVE-2015-7755: Juniper ScreenOS Authentication Backdoor https://t.co/qHpUb17ou1 #juniper betrayed many, could have caused deaths | Dec 22 09:39 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> community.rapid7.com | Information Security: CVE-2015-7755: Juniper Sc... | Rapid7 Community | Dec 22 09:39 | |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: I mentioned systemd | Dec 22 09:40 |
| r_schestowitz | why do you talk politics? | Dec 22 09:40 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: You didn't just mention it. You said, | Dec 22 09:41 |
| msb__ | "Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering?" | Dec 22 09:41 |
| msb__ | So I _told_ you. | Dec 22 09:41 |
| msb__ | Software is not separate from everything else on Earth. | Dec 22 09:42 |
| msb__ | You will never understand the purpose of UEFI, Plasma, systemd, and the attacks on Linux, unless you stand back and look at things as a whole. | Dec 22 09:44 |
| msb__ | The ruling psychopaths want to destroy Linux so people can | Dec 22 09:44 |
| msb__ | can't use it to communicate with each other ABOUT THE PSYCHOPATHS. | Dec 22 09:45 |
| msb__ | attacks on Linus - SJW | Dec 22 09:45 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: I'm talking about what's happening in the world, which makes sense if you look at it all together. | Dec 22 09:47 |
| msb__ | You put everything that's happening in the world under the label "politics" and then refuse to think about it. | Dec 22 09:48 |
| msb__ | That prevents you from understanding the basis of anything that's going on, including systemd and EPO. | Dec 22 09:48 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: You are a very intelligent man, but like everyone else, you have been _programmed_ not to see and think about these things. You have been told to think of them as "conspiracy theories" and so your mind just slides off of them. You are operating under a post-hypnotic suggestion that makes you unable to see something that otherwise would be very obvious. Fight it! | Dec 22 09:52 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ITOMgroup/status/679236195482771456 | Dec 22 09:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ITOMgroup: RT https://t.co/W0cHnW0bMf #microsoft puff pieces pretending to be reports https://t.co/Dw9ZDNZx6Q paywall, among other bullshit | Dec 22 09:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #microsoft puff pieces pretending to be reports https://t.co/v5xXWGnvUX paywall, among other bullshit | Dec 22 09:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> time.com | Satya Nadella Is Making Microsoft Cool. No, Seriously | Dec 22 09:52 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 10:14 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 12:07 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272068458876928 | Dec 22 12:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I don't care so much about GNUisms, but I hardly know or meet any Android or Chrome OS open source developers... | Dec 22 12:08 | |
| r_schestowitz | Android is a broad world, where the overall minority which is FOSS developers is, well... a minority | Dec 22 12:08 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272501608906753 https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272853460660226 | Dec 22 12:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz If not even Red Hat is mentioned in such a list about Linux, the author is only business- and consumer-oriented | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I guess I really have to get used to totally non-technical articles which claim to be about "Linux" then :/ | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | He's technical, but a Google fan | Dec 22 12:11 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 12:14 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/679276882399911936 | Dec 22 12:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Components befit an Enterprise OS (#RHEL 7.x) but, as 4any #GNU/#Linux, there are 3rd party repos for desktop #apps: https://t.co/Yc1Arsg3Q5 | Dec 22 12:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT @fedora @openSUSE @ORCL_Linux But not for desktop... | Dec 22 12:32 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 13:00 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> "The donation box is full of small | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt." | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.195604.7ee1f6f7.en.html | Dec 22 13:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 13:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.203527.4cce477b.en.html | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering? | Dec 22 13:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll [ http://ur1.ca/octgk ] | Dec 22 13:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Been giving me nothing but pain, technically. Ruining the desktop. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I've been postponing it by sticking with Ubuntu 14.04 because all the | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > technical info I can get says it sucks. I expect to move to Devuan, and | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I hope very much that Mint and a few other distros pick it up as a base. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > But I am surprised by the scale of trolling. Apparently even Wikipedia | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > articles have been attacked and/or deleted by systemd trolls. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | They call trolls those who antagonise systemd | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | Like in the mono days... | Dec 22 13:32 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 13:34 | |
| cubexyz | systemd trolls? :) | Dec 22 13:39 |
| cubexyz | apt-get remove systemd-trolls | Dec 22 13:40 |
| cubexyz | as for GNU's importance... all I have to do is mention gcc | Dec 22 13:45 |
| cubexyz | ok, there's a new version of Alpine... it's on the without-systemd page | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Dear Roy, | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > you were awaiting the translation of a letter in French addressed to an MP. Here is the translation. As always the translation might not be perfect and my apologies for the poor formatting. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Thanks again for all the good work. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Kind Regards. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | That's fantastic, thank you so much! | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | Now that I can read it (and will publish it) I can see that Battistelli's intimidation attempts against the M(E)P only brought out the worse of him. :-) | Dec 22 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Mono had and has patent issues. | Dec 22 13:48 |
| cubexyz | Q4OS isn't on the list but it should be | Dec 22 13:48 |
| cubexyz | Alpine does look interesting... secure, lightweight, musl libc + busybox | Dec 22 13:50 |
| cubexyz | libreoffice 5.0 is built-in | Dec 22 13:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-works/ when you read stuff like this you start thinking twice about the world secure and Linux distrobutions. | Dec 22 14:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dvdhrm.wordpress.com | How VT-switching works | Ponyhof | Dec 22 14:02 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes VT console switch has a permission race condition problem. | Dec 22 14:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the permission race condition probleme exists with consolekit as well. | Dec 22 14:03 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/679300135231299584 | Dec 22 14:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Yeah, same here... :( | Dec 22 14:05 | |
| cubexyz | argh, can't remember how to properly use krename | Dec 22 14:08 |
| cubexyz | is there a glob to exclude filenames that don't start with a number? | Dec 22 14:09 |
| cubexyz | hold on... krename [0-9]* should work | Dec 22 14:11 |
| oiaohm | I was just about to say that one. | Dec 22 14:12 |
| cubexyz | brilliant :) | Dec 22 14:12 |
| cubexyz | the three digit prefix wasn't quite enough digits | Dec 22 14:14 |
| cubexyz | so I'm switching to a four digit prefix, but there was over 1k of files | Dec 22 14:15 |
| cubexyz | krename simplifies the job nicely | Dec 22 14:15 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's no way to reset the "text" console | Dec 22 14:18 |
| cubexyz | I put the word text in quotes because it is in fact rasterized graphics | Dec 22 14:18 |
| cubexyz | also I have to deal with the text console on OpenBSD which is no doubt different | Dec 22 14:19 |
| oiaohm | The OpenBSD console is different to the Linux VT. | Dec 22 14:20 |
| cubexyz | does that article say anything about corrupted VT? | Dec 22 14:20 |
| cubexyz | anyways... :-/ | Dec 22 14:21 |
| cubexyz | yup, my slackware box currently has botched up VT | Dec 22 14:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the race conditions with permissions explained botched up vt a lot. | Dec 22 14:22 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons Different BSD groupts have rebuilt there VT systems. | Dec 22 14:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons ) | Dec 22 14:22 | |
| oiaohm | Linux VT system needs a lot of rebuilding work. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, so can you tell me why "/sbin/modprobe radeonfb" fixes botched up VT? | Dec 22 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Or scraping. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | that's really my only fix | Dec 22 14:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: drive loading triggers a permission reset by logind or consolekit. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | doh, and I have to watch out for x2x situations too | Dec 22 14:24 |
| cubexyz | otherwise I end up switching to VT on a different computer | Dec 22 14:24 |
| cubexyz | drive loading? | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | drive/driver | Dec 22 14:25 |
| cubexyz | oh, device driver | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | x2x issues are some of the reason to want wayland. | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things systemd started off attempting to fix are real issues. | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I had a tough time with some windows customers yesterday | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | we all sat down and they asked me what are the alternatives to windows | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | so I said: chromebox, Mac OS X, linux, openbsd... | Dec 22 14:27 |
| cubexyz | anyways, lots of work :) | Dec 22 14:27 |
| oiaohm | I know a lot hate systemd but list of issues that need fixing are long. | Dec 22 14:28 |
| cubexyz | we can fix stuff without using systemd though | Dec 22 14:28 |
| cubexyz | busybox, openrc, etc | Dec 22 14:28 |
| oiaohm | busybox still has not address the VT issue. | Dec 22 14:28 |
| oiaohm | openrc logind replacement at least has a chance. | Dec 22 14:29 |
| cubexyz | can linux use a true text mode? | Dec 22 14:29 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that Xenix did | Dec 22 14:30 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't a true text mode be faster? | Dec 22 14:30 |
| cubexyz | maybe just stick a terminal on the computer | Dec 22 14:31 |
| cubexyz | then we aren't forcing the video card into different modes all the time | Dec 22 14:31 |
| cubexyz | lower memory consumption too | Dec 22 14:32 |
| oiaohm | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto I guess you are thinking serial console. | Dec 22 14:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-help.ubuntu.com | SerialConsoleHowto - Community Help Wiki | Dec 22 14:33 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if you are thinking using text mode in the graphics card. You must be feeling lucky. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| cubexyz | I'm not feeling lucky actually | Dec 22 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Some modern video cards don't have text processing any more. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| oiaohm | So they only take graphical data. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| cubexyz | since when? | Dec 22 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Back into the powerpc apple time frame. | Dec 22 14:35 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: its one of the supprising when attempting to get Linux to run on apple laptops. | Dec 22 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Hey I will force Linux to use bios textmode. Opps nada. | Dec 22 14:37 |
| cubexyz | surely MSDOS an FreeDOS have a true text mode? | Dec 22 14:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: DisplayLink devices of course don't have vesa stuff. | Dec 22 14:38 |
| cubexyz | so the modern video cards may support it maybe? | Dec 22 14:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: text mode is optional. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: just like graphical mode is optional. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | People forgot this. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| cubexyz | doesn't linux start in text mode then switch to graphical mode? | Dec 22 14:39 |
| cubexyz | and what if you don't bother with X at all? | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: what looks like text can by Linux can be framebuffer text rendered by the Linux kernel it self. | Dec 22 14:40 |
| oiaohm | So graphics card not having text mode does not really effect if Linux can or cannot display text. | Dec 22 14:40 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: MSDOS/Freedos depend on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INT_10H being provided. Of course this could by video card firmware or bios firmware or by videocard hardware. | Dec 22 14:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | INT 10H - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 22 14:43 | |
| cubexyz | so the video card can do it | Dec 22 14:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: video card can do it or the bios could do it. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | otherwise FreeDOS or MSDOS wouldn't work | Dec 22 14:44 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Freedos and MSDOS will work as long as something does it. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| oiaohm | does not have to be the graphics card. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | I don't follow you... it must be the video card | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | it drives the display :) | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Text conversion could be done by the bios then raw image passed to video card to display. | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | In that case the video card does not have a textmode. | Dec 22 14:45 |
| cubexyz | the video card bios? | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Does not have to be the video card bios. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Could be the video card bios or it could be embedded in core firmware. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: x86 too many ways to skin the cat. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| cubexyz | "there is currently no fallback that can take over once Xorg crashed" | Dec 22 14:50 |
| cubexyz | I assume a serial console would still function ^^^ | Dec 22 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep it would exactly why ssh does as well. | Dec 22 14:51 |
| cubexyz | serial console would have simpler logic though | Dec 22 14:51 |
| oiaohm | VT area of Unix like OS's is migrain central. | Dec 22 14:51 |
| cubexyz | doesn't need encryption | Dec 22 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I've since X run for over a year... BUT... | Dec 22 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I wasn't switching to "text console" at all | Dec 22 14:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes stuff like that is VT handling failure. | Dec 22 14:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, only thing is I don't really have a cheap video terminal for a serial console | Dec 22 14:53 |
| cubexyz | just minicom from another computer | Dec 22 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Really for Linux to be fully desktop ready the graphical system include what ever is the modern vt needs to be way more solid. | Dec 22 14:54 |
| cubexyz | it's probably better than anything else though | Dec 22 14:55 |
| cubexyz | well, maybe mainframes are better :) | Dec 22 14:56 |
| cubexyz | I can't say really | Dec 22 14:56 |
| oiaohm | solaris added KMS a lot earlier | Dec 22 14:57 |
| oiaohm | So some of the mainframe unix solutions have had better vts. | Dec 22 14:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: of course some have had worse. | Dec 22 14:59 |
| cubexyz | windows :) | Dec 22 15:00 |
| oiaohm | To be horible windows VT does works. Reason why bluescreens of death always showed up instead of Linux frozen to hell. | Dec 22 15:02 |
| cubexyz | don't think Amiga had any real text mode either now that I think about it | Dec 22 15:02 |
| cubexyz | but the BSOD means you are dead anyway | Dec 22 15:03 |
| cubexyz | you can't recover | Dec 22 15:03 |
| cubexyz | if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 15:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/student-bsod.jpg | Dec 22 15:04 |
| cubexyz | you got ctrl-alt-del and that's it | Dec 22 15:05 |
| cubexyz | with linux I _could_ probably continue by restarting X | Dec 22 15:07 |
| cubexyz | either way, you will probably lose some work... unless you are in vi | Dec 22 15:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Linux may not display the kernel panic due to X11 graphics still being in the way. | Dec 22 15:24 |
| cubexyz | I haven't seen a kernel panic in a long time | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes it all over but not having the error code means you have the nightmare of hitting the same problem again. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| cubexyz | I've seen X botch up and reset itself though | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes you don't get kernel paincs on Linux normally unless some bit of hardware is going wrong. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is not knowing what bit of hardware is going south. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: could be something critical like a harddrive. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't there be something in the logs? | Dec 22 15:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends on the failure causing the kernel panic. Remember all writes like to logs and the like could be lost by the kernel panic trigger. | Dec 22 15:29 |
| cubexyz | would the kernel panic message show up on the serial terminal, assuming there was one? | Dec 22 15:30 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: as long as the fault does not come from the serial output system. | Dec 22 15:30 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem we do absolutely need to see kernel panic events. | Dec 22 15:31 |
| cubexyz | a serial problem shouldn't bring down the whole OS though | Dec 22 15:31 |
| cubexyz | cosmic rays, bad memory, bad hard drive, yes | Dec 22 15:32 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends how bad of serial problem. | Dec 22 15:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: controllers going nuts and over writing a stack of memory anything can happen. | Dec 22 15:33 |
| cubexyz | I think the superio included the IDE controller | Dec 22 15:38 |
| cubexyz | also serial, parallel, floppy | Dec 22 15:38 |
| cubexyz | so if the superio was OKed that could stop the hard drive access | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | It seems that not all of the EPO is on vacation. The communique of the AC's meeting has been released. | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://www.epo.org/about-us/organisation/communiques.html | Dec 22 15:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.epo.org | EPO - Communiqués | Dec 22 15:39 | |
| cubexyz | so yes, I think you are right | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | "After the Chairman's activities report, covering in particular the last meetings of the Board of the Administrative Council, the President of the European Patent Office Benoît Battistelli gave an update on developments at the Office since the previous Council meeting. The Council was particularly pleased with the remarkable results achieved by the Office in terms of production, productivity and quality. It nevertheless again | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | expressed concern about the deteriorated social climate and called for initiatives and genuine efforts from all parties involved to seek compromise solutions to end a situation detrimental to the proper functioning of the Office and the public image of the whole Organisation. The Council hoped that the independent, external social study to be launched at the beginning of 2016 would be a significant contribution to improvement." | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450769841155#c2916370631058633135 | Dec 22 15:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/octmx ] | Dec 22 15:39 | |
| amarsh04 | if one party is the cause of problems, compromise is at least partially giving into the party at fault | Dec 22 15:43 |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 15:46 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg | Dec 22 16:01 |
| XRevan86 | - What are you doing, punks? | Dec 22 16:05 |
| XRevan86 | - There are candy. Just like Dad. | Dec 22 16:05 |
| cubexyz | :) | Dec 22 16:05 |
| msb__ | What is the "VT" that oiaohm is claiming is broken in Linux? | Dec 22 16:52 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 16:54 |
| msb__ | They work fine for me. I can even watch videos in them! mplayer uses fbdev! | Dec 22 16:58 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 17:32 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 22 17:38 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6925400 | Dec 22 18:27 |
| r_schestowitz | cubexyz: ^ | Dec 22 18:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Get 'em while they're young http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg sticking that long thing in their mouths to form habits | Dec 22 18:27 | |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: virtual terminal | Dec 22 18:31 |
| r_schestowitz | like those terminals that used to be physical back in the days an had very crude i/o | Dec 22 18:31 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | [15:04] <cubexyz> if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | How true | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | not sitting on top of the shell, so no way to diagonise or to bring it back up | Dec 22 18:33 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? Or are there other virtual terminals? | Dec 22 18:34 |
| r_schestowitz | there are terminal emulators | Dec 22 18:38 |
| r_schestowitz | lots of them | Dec 22 18:38 |
| *r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 18:40 | |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 22 18:41 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 18:41 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 18:42 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 18:45 | |
| MinceR | http://40.media.tumblr.com/e4ffbe02de77b196c7b68ec251fcb4f3/tumblr_inline_nzpzm4zIqe1t63ajm_1280.jpg | Dec 22 18:58 |
| MinceR | https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10778642 | Dec 22 19:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ ) | Dec 22 19:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-news.ycombinator.com | Santa Claus Confirms NSA Attack on Naughty or Nice Database | Hacker News [ http://ur1.ca/octw1 ] | Dec 22 19:07 | |
| *tessier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 22 19:24 | |
| *tessier (~treed@wsip-70-166-32-111.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| *tessier has quit (Changing host) | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| *tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: seen it earlier | Dec 22 19:25 |
| schestowitz | funny concept | Dec 22 19:25 |
| schestowitz | >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/brunei-cancels-christmas-sultan-warns-those-celebrating-could-face-up-to-five-years-in-jail-a6782561.html | Dec 22 19:28 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.independent.co.uk | Brunei cancels Christmas: Sultan warns those celebrating could face up to five years in jail | Asia | News | The Independent | Dec 22 19:28 | |
| schestowitz | >>> >> | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> A better link about the same. | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > Thanks. | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > See | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millionaire-businessman-cleared-raping-teenager-7018414 | Dec 22 19:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.mirror.co.uk | Millionaire businessman cleared of raping teenager after he told court he may have accidentally penetrated her - Mirror Online | Dec 22 19:29 | |
| schestowitz | > Hmm. That judge needs a government investigation, with special | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | > attention to his recent cases. I've thought for several minutes and | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | > can't think of a lamer excuse. | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | yes, embarrassment to UK justice.... needs to be fixed ASAP. | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | If it was in Saudi Barbaria I'd imagine she'd be sued | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | for defaming him | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | and beheaded in a public square | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | For having been 'accidentally' raped | Dec 22 19:30 |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:56 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 21:02 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 21:03 | |
| *arossdotme-planb (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 21:10 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 22 21:13 | |
| *arossdotme-planb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 22 21:18 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 21:29 | |
| schestowitz | I think we have some good stories coming up in techrights, regarding the eu patents scandal: | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | I have begun working on a story which I believe can be broken down as follows: | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 1. EPO fires SUEPO person, without even notifying the person, and without telling the public | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 2. EPO took advantage of illness in the family | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 3. EPO shows hypocrisy on cancer | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | The story would name no names, although people involved would likely know who's who, just not the general public. Is this narration OK? | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | ewwww | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Swapil posted photo: "Selfie with Cloud Foundry CEO - Sam Ramji" | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Ramjo | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Might explains his pro-MS BS as of late | Dec 22 22:14 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 22 22:40 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 23:51 | |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 22 23:52 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 23:52 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: VT are broken on LInux when it comes to applied permissions. Race condition can work perfectly 90 percent of time. The issue is when you have user A on one VT and user B on another VT and you are switching between them. If the race condition triggers the permission change does not happen. | Dec 23 00:02 |
| oiaohm | msb__: So yes the arguement that o I can use Ctrl-Alt-Fn and it appears to work is in fact completely disregarding the fact the core design in the Linux kernel for handling VT is flawed. | Dec 23 00:04 |
| msb__ | What is the effect of this flaw? | Dec 23 00:10 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what has not been set and what the user is. User can find they have switched cannot mount drives when they should be able and so on. All the stuff logind and consolekit sets basically can have skipped happening. | Dec 23 00:13 |
| MinceR | so, once again the logind/polkit magic fails | Dec 23 00:19 |
| MinceR | but it was worth giving everything up for | Dec 23 00:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: consolekit and consolekit2 both fail the same way as well. | Dec 23 00:19 |
| MinceR | at least those don't hijack your system | Dec 23 00:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the systemd solution of drop VT completely I don't agree with. If we want to keep it the VT API that has race condition has to be replaced by some local IPC that works correctly. | Dec 23 00:20 |
| MinceR | ooh, ipc | Dec 23 00:22 |
| MinceR | let me guess | Dec 23 00:22 |
| MinceR | kdbus! | Dec 23 00:22 |
| oiaohm | The other option is the kernel VT remembers the permission maps itself. So logind/consolekit uploads the permission map to kernel then the kernel takes care of the switching by itself. | Dec 23 00:23 |
| oiaohm | 1 of the race conditions is a device in use by 1 user that needs to change permissions user 2 that cannot until the user1 release it. | Dec 23 00:24 |
| oiaohm | Some cases when you do a VT switch it should be user termination. | Dec 23 00:25 |
| MinceR | user error. replace user and press any key to continue. | Dec 23 00:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: this is not something to joke with. One of the possible faults if someone attempts to intentionally trigger the race. Is scary enough you are logging in but the user name and password you just type in go to a display manager or getty and to a different user on the system. | Dec 23 00:33 |
| MinceR | sadly, gnu/linux development is increasingly driven by politics | Dec 23 00:35 |
| MinceR | the question they ask is not "what would be the best solution?" but "how could i push my 'technology' some more?" | Dec 23 00:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the Linux kernel has always been driven by politics. Its not like the BSD world with the techical board managing it. | Dec 23 00:49 |
| MinceR | i wasn't always aware of it | Dec 23 00:49 |
| oiaohm | https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html BSD's you find they have boards of directors. | Dec 23 00:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html ) | Dec 23 00:51 | |
| oiaohm | Who sit to exactly debate over the best possible solution. | Dec 23 00:52 |
| MinceR | debian has a Technical Committee... and they capitulated to ratcrap | Dec 23 00:52 |
| oiaohm | Please note Debian technical committee is not like a freebsd development board. Freebsd development board is free to create new projects from scratch where required. Technical committee in debian is meant to choose what is techicially best out of existing solutions. | Dec 23 00:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: on techical merit unfortantly systemd at this stage beats openrc and sysvinit. Debian Technical Committee was not that they were happy either. Debian Technical committee has left the possiblity of a revote if a better solution appear or if openrc gets moe completed. | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | they may be meant for that, but they're obviously incapable of doing so | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | maybe someone who was brainwashed by deadrat believes it to be, but that does not make it so | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | on technical merit, cancerd is the worst possible design and the worst possible implementation | Dec 23 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Techical merit includes feature and function comparance. | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit does not mean features that were made up to check boxes | Dec 23 00:57 |
| oiaohm | systemd has horible implmentation I will give you that. MinceR | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit is about features that matter. | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | also, an init system does not need to do unrelated functionality | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | and shouldn't do so | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | as such, unrelated functionality is not a point in favor of cancerd, it's against it | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Features that matter include providing a possible solution to VT switching failures. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | they don't provide a solution to that, as you've said above | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | systemd logind does. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Horible by remove vt from kernel. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | just like they don't provide a solution to their polkit issues, because their alleged solution requires revoke | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | which is not implemented | Dec 23 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Sorry it is implemented. | Dec 23 00:59 |
| MinceR | since when? | Dec 23 00:59 |
| oiaohm | The seat system for operating without in kernel Vt was implemented in systemd-logind in the year 2010 | Dec 23 00:59 |
| oiaohm | So yes there is a list of techical merits. | Dec 23 01:00 |
| oiaohm | So the other options do need to lift their game. | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | that's not an answer to the question | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | and yes, poettering came up with a ludicrous table | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | where exactly do they need to "lift their game"? to gain more leverage over gnome/debian people? | Dec 23 01:01 |
| oiaohm | openrc has issues where it does not even built dependablity into a package. That is kinda a major game breaker. | Dec 23 01:02 |
| MinceR | ooh, tell me more about how cancerd is dependable | Dec 23 01:03 |
| oiaohm | On techical merit lot of the debian guys were leaning to openrc. | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/316 | Dec 23 01:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | After resuming from standby, systemd is stuck trying to unmount a disk · Issue #316 · systemd/systemd · GitHub | Dec 23 01:03 | |
| oiaohm | Sad as it sound systemd does build dependablty from source. | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | dependability, according to you | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | on a software package that was declared stable 4 years before | Dec 23 01:04 |
| MinceR | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589 | Dec 23 01:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.freedesktop.org | Bug 74589 – systemd segfaults if no cgroups are available [ http://ur1.ca/j3zxv ] | Dec 23 01:04 | |
| MinceR | checking pointers? not cancerd's job. | Dec 23 01:04 |
| MinceR | also, testing is for losers. | Dec 23 01:04 |
| cubexyz | systemd is horrible | Dec 23 01:05 |
| cubexyz | at least consider other options | Dec 23 01:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: most of what you are describing is quality control issues. | Dec 23 01:05 |
| cubexyz | you think people will run systemd on embedded? | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | no, it's more like competence issues | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: people have attempted to, with the disastrous results you'd expect | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | here's systemd failing at being a service manager: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1170765 | Dec 23 01:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 ) | Dec 23 01:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugzilla.redhat.com | Bug 1170765 – systemd: all processes in scopes (including user sessions) SIGKILLed immediately on shutdown with no opportunity to shut down cleanly [ http://ur1.ca/ocua5 ] | Dec 23 01:07 | |
| MinceR | obviously a service manager that can't start or stop processes reliably has great technical merit, doesn't it? | Dec 23 01:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also you are tunnelled visioned. | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | uh huh | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | expecting an init system to work is "tunnel vision" | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | you heard it here first, folks! | Dec 23 01:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 automount with sysvinit also does a stack of stupid things including at times getting suck attempting to unmount stuff. | Dec 23 01:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 ) | Dec 23 01:08 | |
| MinceR | automount is not sysvinit | Dec 23 01:08 |
| oiaohm | So you don't use fstab with sysvinit right? | Dec 23 01:08 |
| MinceR | and sysvinit is not automount | Dec 23 01:08 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: guess what processes fstab | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | just because i use something with sysvinit does not turn that into a part of sysvinit | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | something the retards at redcrap should have learned | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | you can in fact run more than one piece of software on a computer! | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | pid1 does not have to do everything. | Dec 23 01:10 |
| MinceR | https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=104314 | Dec 23 01:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.raspberrypi.org | Raspberry Pi • View topic - Systemd Jessie errors [ http://ur1.ca/ocuaa ] | Dec 23 01:11 | |
| MinceR | https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html | Dec 23 01:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html ) | Dec 23 01:12 | |
| MinceR | apparently "technical merit" means "the software can not do what is allegedly its job" | Dec 23 01:12 |
| MinceR | with people "thinking" like that on the TC, it's no wonder debian is dead | Dec 23 01:13 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: "But are these problems specific to Raspbian? Because Debian 8 w/systemd on RPi2 seems to have no such problems and this was even when it was still testing and not stable" from that link | Dec 23 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are issues with systemd in low memory envornments. | Dec 23 01:14 |
| MinceR | ah yes, the usual "argument" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | "i've seen systemd not fuck up totally once, so it's perfect" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| oiaohm | That Is not what I said. | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | people like that should not be in charge of OSes that claim to have "stable" releases | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | "stable" does not mean "somebody saw it work once" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| cubexyz | just use the init you want | Dec 23 01:16 |
| oiaohm | This is your problem MinceR you keep on putting words in people month they have not said. | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | that's precisely the choice ratcrap is trying to take away | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, my problem is legions of fascists trying to fuck up my life even more | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | as if it wasn't bad enough already | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | millions of humans working hard at producing the perfect dystopia | Dec 23 01:17 |
| oiaohm | The reality is all the RPi2 do in fact run jessie without problem using systemd. The RPi1b with only 512 megs can have issues and the RPi1a with only 256 megs of memory it does not work right. | Dec 23 01:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically it information showing that systemd is a bit of a memory hog. | Dec 23 01:17 |
| cubexyz | ok, good point | Dec 23 01:17 |
| cubexyz | thanks oiaohm :) | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | a memory hog, a cpu hog, and an all-around train wreck | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | http://blind.guru/daemon-cpu.html | Dec 23 01:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blind.guru | I am sorry, but this looks insane | Dec 23 01:18 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: explain to me why an "init system" needs 512MB of RAM. | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | is it perhaps built on top of a web browser, like atom? | Dec 23 01:19 |
| cubexyz | btw, people have been using sysvinit since 1983 | Dec 23 01:19 |
| MinceR | or perhaps m$ sql? | Dec 23 01:19 |
| cubexyz | I should make a page of inits | Dec 23 01:20 |
| cubexyz | btw, when was fstab started? | Dec 23 01:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I can explain some of it by the ways you break sysvinit from starting on on 256meg RPi1a | Dec 23 01:22 |
| MinceR | i also wonder what's so difficult to understand about "universal" | Dec 23 01:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the easyest way is install a heavy logging server. | Dec 23 01:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no amount of explanation will do away with the fact that it in fact works on RPi1a | Dec 23 01:23 |
| cubexyz | ok, 4.1c BSD | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sysvinit doesn't do logging, as it shouldn't | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | also, journald also doesn't belong in a "stable" OS | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | it's a pretty good demonstration of how not to do logging, though | Dec 23 01:23 |
| oiaohm | journald is a very complete information logging system. So its heavy logging and does cost memory. | Dec 23 01:24 |
| MinceR | did you read that off the official deadrat brochure? | Dec 23 01:24 |
| MinceR | it's binary, it's fragile, it melds coredumps into your logs, it doesn't even support log rotation | Dec 23 01:24 |
| cubexyz | btw original sys3 init doesn't use fstab | Dec 23 01:24 |
| MinceR | oh, and it comes with a webserver built in | Dec 23 01:25 |
| MinceR | because why the fuck wouldn't you want a webserver built into your logging daemon | Dec 23 01:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note even using journld with remote syslog as it does support its heavy. Remote syslog means it does not have to use binary logging files. | Dec 23 01:25 |
| MinceR | yeah, it's a pointless use case | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | it's only there as an excuse for forcing cancerd users to use journald for logging | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the binnary logs bad handling makes it worse. | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | probably so that NSA backdoors can remove the log entries they don't want you to see | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | before it can reach a reasonable log daemon | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Note I said I could explain breaking in 256 with good stuff. | Dec 23 01:26 |
| cubexyz | can't you just do the mounting stuff manually? | Dec 23 01:26 |
| cubexyz | what is the big deal? | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Breaking at 512 is really shows implementation issues MinceR | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: manually is not "modern" enough | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also, it leaves the user too much control | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | we can't have that | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | poettering must be put in charge of deciding what gets mounted when | Dec 23 01:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even using binary logging solutions that are not journd that are as complete as journald in inform record will work on 512 pi | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | just like a crApple product | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: binary logging is not a "solution", it's a problem. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so I 100 percent agree journald back end need a major rework. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't need a rework | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | it needs to be killed with fire. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Or killed in fire. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| cubexyz | I can run Unix in 256k :) | Dec 23 01:29 |
| MinceR | and the people who pushed it into the places it is, need to be removed from any positions of power | Dec 23 01:29 |
| MinceR | redrat does not deserve a second chance. | Dec 23 01:29 |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 23 01:30 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem here I come from a blender3d back ground. Blenders format file format is binary. Using blenders DNA fileformat would be more memory effective and more log rotation comadible than what journald uses. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so being binary here is not the only issue. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: being crappy design is truly a issue. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | it would also be more failure prone | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | and it would also be more easily corrupted | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | and forcing coredumps into the "log" fills HDDs quickly, as many users have already found out | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Blender DNA format is more resistant to faults. | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Than using text | Dec 23 01:32 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of binary formats that are more resistant than text. | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Why checksum see broken part skip over. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 23 01:33 |
| oiaohm | instead of with text see value 0 that is end of file. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | you do realize you can skip over broken parts in text files, right? | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | what. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | unix is not ms/dos | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | s,/,-, | Dec 23 01:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the thing is you know what is broken if the format has checksumed itself. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | any format can be checksummed | Dec 23 01:34 |
| MinceR | there's par2, for example | Dec 23 01:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I know any format can be checksumed. Issue here is default logging to textfiles normally do not bother. | Dec 23 01:35 |
| MinceR | still better than turning all logs into line noise | Dec 23 01:35 |
| MinceR | instead of a format you can easily see corruption in | Dec 23 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Being binary as other logging solution using binary show that if it correctly done you don't end up with mangled logs. | Dec 23 01:37 |
| oiaohm | journald binary logs eat logs is really unforgivable implementation fault. | Dec 23 01:37 |
| MinceR | pity deadrat is not in the "doing things correctly" business, then | Dec 23 01:37 |
| MinceR | and neither is debian, anymore | Dec 23 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Binary logs can have proper log rotation systems. | Dec 23 01:38 |
| MinceR | sure | Dec 23 01:38 |
| MinceR | journald doesn't have one, though | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | So journald not having proper log rotation systems is another fault. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Lack of proper log roation means if stuff goes wrong it worse. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| MinceR | it would be no problem if journald was an option | Dec 23 01:39 |
| MinceR | but it's forced on users | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Also lack of proper log rotation increase memory usage. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Basically binary logging done properly should not upset users much. | Dec 23 01:40 |
| oiaohm | In fact should be more dependable than plain text logging without checksums. | Dec 23 01:41 |
| MinceR | plain text logging with checksums is even more dependable | Dec 23 01:41 |
| cubexyz | I grep my plain text logs all the time | Dec 23 01:41 |
| MinceR | sure, it's not as shiny and it's not as much like windows, but it actually works | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | people should really learn not to be distracted and enthralled by shiny crap | Dec 23 01:42 |
| oiaohm | plain text logging with checksums size wise is larger. Compared to properly implemented binary logging no extra dependablity. | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | it's sad people like that consider themselves intelligent | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | not if it doesn't include coredumps | Dec 23 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Main reason for text logging is easy direct text tool usage. | Dec 23 01:43 |
| MinceR | there are many good reasons for text logging | Dec 23 01:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: and there are good reasons for properly constructed binary logging. | Dec 23 01:45 |
| oiaohm | There is no good excuse for improperly constructed binary or text logging. | Dec 23 01:45 |
| MinceR | the main reason for binary logging is the principle of "dave cutler hates unix" | Dec 23 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging predates NT | Dec 23 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging was first done on commerical Unix systems. | Dec 23 01:46 |
| MinceR | you should have told dave cutler about that | Dec 23 01:46 |
| MinceR | maybe we wouldn't have journald now if you had | Dec 23 01:47 |
| oiaohm | No dave cutler own write up on NT history references unix binary logging for Windows logging design. | Dec 23 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging is a Unix thing unfortantly. | Dec 23 01:47 |
| MinceR | "Store data in flat text files." | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | yup, says right there to log in binary format | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Dec 23 01:48 |
| cubexyz | apache doesn't | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | is this yet another case of "but sun already fucked up like this!"? | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | it's like fidesz writing their "constitution" | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | collecting the worst mistakes made by others | Dec 23 01:49 |
| cubexyz | XFree86 was text logging | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | and then blaming those others for the mistake | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 23 01:49 |
| cubexyz | mysqld is text logging | Dec 23 01:50 |
| cubexyz | messages? text | Dec 23 01:50 |
| cubexyz | secure? text | Dec 23 01:50 |
| cubexyz | prelink.log is text | Dec 23 01:51 |
| cubexyz | yum.log is text | Dec 23 01:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: particular mail servers you find binary logging. | Dec 23 01:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: these are unix world evil pre NT. | Dec 23 01:51 |
| MinceR | every program attempts to expand until it can send mail, except microsoft exchange | Dec 23 01:52 |
| cubexyz | pretty sure sendmail logs in text, although there could be some control chars in there | Dec 23 01:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, my /var/log directory is full of text files | Dec 23 01:52 |
| MinceR | but oiaohm dug up one or two examples which should prove that binary logging is totally the unix thing | Dec 23 01:52 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 23 01:53 |
| cubexyz | ok, just going by what my server has | Dec 23 01:53 |
| cubexyz | btw I wrote a logger for a linux game | Dec 23 01:54 |
| cubexyz | and it does use text :) | Dec 23 01:54 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921996 | Dec 23 01:54 |
| schestowitz | "Is there any number that makes sense universally to base a number system on?" | Dec 23 01:54 |
| oiaohm | http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/mysqlbinlog.html Some services have binary logging built in. | Dec 23 01:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/219570-what-are-prime-numbers-and-why-are-they-so-vital-to-modern-life "Modern encryption algorithms exploit the fact" | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.extremetech.com | What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? | ExtremeTech [ http://ur1.ca/oct6m ] | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dev.mysql.com | MySQL :: MySQL 5.7 Reference Manual :: 4.6.7 mysqlbinlog — Utility for Processing Binary Log Files [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc1 ] | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| MinceR | >some | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | mysqld.log is text | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | at least mine is | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | wtmp is binary | Dec 23 01:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the files text files you are read most likely were written by syslog including that mysqld.log. The implementation of syslog sets if those are text or not. | Dec 23 01:56 |
| cubexyz | I don't remember the format for that | Dec 23 01:56 |
| cubexyz | ok, well I'm glad mine is set for text mode | Dec 23 01:57 |
| cubexyz | I'll look at syslogd.conf | Dec 23 01:58 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/v8-stable/tutorials/database.html The things you can do to syslog information is quite massive. | Dec 23 01:58 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rsyslog.com | Writing syslog messages to MySQL, PostgreSQL or any other supported Database — rsyslog 8.14.0 documentation [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc9 ] | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| oiaohm | So yes rsyslog to database can equal no more text files in the /var/log directory. | Dec 23 01:59 |
| MinceR | and yet i still don't have to do it with rsyslog | Dec 23 01:59 |
| cubexyz | even Unix v7m logging was mainly text | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | it's a Unix thing | Dec 23 02:00 |
| MinceR | compare "i can do it my way" to "i can only do it poettering's way" | Dec 23 02:00 |
| MinceR | two different principles, two different OSes | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/unix-philosophy.txt | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | "Store data in flat text files" | Dec 23 02:01 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: option of text logging is a Unix thing. So is the option to redirect syslog into what ever you wish to process it including binary. | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | yup | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | should be trivial to understand | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | and yet... | Dec 23 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the early syslogs include binary options. | Dec 23 02:03 |
| oiaohm | Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | some data is probably better in binary format, but logging? | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | e.g. a graphical file would be better in binary | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | and of course video :) | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | human readable log files are better | Dec 23 02:05 |
| oiaohm | There is a issue that makes journald explode and it not binary logging. | Dec 23 02:05 |
| cubexyz | you can compress the text file if you want to save space | Dec 23 02:05 |
| cubexyz | I don't see any problem | Dec 23 02:05 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump | Dec 23 02:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump ) | Dec 23 02:06 | |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log or coredumps even using normal old syslogs is hazard. | Dec 23 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Dec 23 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log all coredumps even using normal old syslog is hazard | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | 030400 < oiaohm> Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | why do we have to have that bloated train wreck in the pipe? | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | especially one with unreadable code full of bugs? | Dec 23 02:08 |
| MinceR | do we have to give the NSA a way to mangle our logs? | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | in the olden days it would be teletypewriter output | Dec 23 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: most text logging in rotation has compression on rotated logs. | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | no way the NSA could corrupt that :) | Dec 23 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes space is why. | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | very safe | Dec 23 02:09 |
| cubexyz | sure | Dec 23 02:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you never deployed rsyslog client wrapper on sysvinit. | Dec 23 02:09 |
| MinceR | i guess poettering has a 10TB RAID array just for log storage, so nobody should ever need to rotate logs anymore | Dec 23 02:10 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: did i ever need it? | Dec 23 02:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: journald wrapper makes sense to those who have had to individually add the wrappers in sysvinit. The wrappers are to prevent X application say to syslog that they are Y application so making your log information false. | Dec 23 02:11 |
| MinceR | yeah, because falsifying my logs is journald's job! | Dec 23 02:12 |
| oiaohm | To be correct the one part of journald that is correct is if you set it as a wrapper to a syslog. | Dec 23 02:12 |
| oiaohm | So they managed to get 1 thing right. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| oiaohm | And fairly much every other operational mode wrong. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Including the default. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| MinceR | does that 1 thing need 512MB of RAM and an entire CPU core? | Dec 23 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Ram usage drops of journald drops a lot when you tell it not to binary log and just forwards to syslog solution of some form. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Also it cpu consume drops massively. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| oiaohm | 90 percent of journald problem is it binary logging engine is complete crap. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| MinceR | crap design, crap implementation, forced on users | Dec 23 02:17 |
| MinceR | perfect combination | Dec 23 02:17 |
| oiaohm | The wrapper is good design for prevent false information entering log files. | Dec 23 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Just because you have 1 bit of good design does not mean you cannot screw up everything else. | Dec 23 02:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so not everything about systemd is bad design. | Dec 23 02:19 |
| MinceR | do you search the landfill for diamonds? | Dec 23 02:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: some automated recycling plants at landfill do search for diamonds jems and metals. | Dec 23 02:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you want to see systemd replaced you have understand what what they got right just as much as what they got wrong. | Dec 23 02:24 |
| MinceR | i don't want to see systemd replaced | Dec 23 02:26 |
| MinceR | but i also don't want to see anything replaced _by_ systemd | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | nice try, pretending that systemd came first | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | it's getting a bit old though | Dec 23 02:27 |
| oiaohm | The reality is systemd is already deployed and out there. | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | the reality is that unix and gnu/linux came first | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | and systemd tried to corrupt and destroy them later | Dec 23 02:27 |
| oiaohm | You will have resistance from those who see particular features useful and don't want to lose those features. | Dec 23 02:28 |
| MinceR | they can go and fuck themselves | Dec 23 02:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't complain when that happens to you then. | Dec 23 02:29 |
| oiaohm | The reality is development is based around what people need. | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | while they keep claiming all distros should be the same and they already had fedora, mageia, opensuse, arch, coreos, RHELl, SLES and ubuntu, they had to go and fuck up debian too | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | the reality is that people don't need cancerd | Dec 23 02:29 |
| oiaohm | Of course attempting to address those needs something results in crap being | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | and that development is based around whose microsoftian tricks succeed | Dec 23 02:30 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 23 02:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: as normally you disregard what others need. | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | oh, and they already had winblows, the design of which they admire so much | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, it's you and poettering who do that. | Dec 23 02:30 |
| cubexyz | with FOSS you can adapt things to your liking | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: until the fascists lock it down | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | then again, that won't be free anymore | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Windows eventlog does not pervent log forgoery either MinceR | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: duh | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | they can piss off, buy winblows and use it | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | most of the needs driving systemd have nothing todo with Windows. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | and enjoy how "modern" it is | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | So if they go to windows they don't have what they need. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | people loving crap design has nothing to do with winblows? | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | actually, they will | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all you could to is tell them to go use solaris. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Not windows. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have unrelated bloated crap smashed together in one process | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have binary logging | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | Because windows does not have the required features. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have secret APIs and lock-in | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | binary logging is not the required feature. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have insecure unreliable unreadable crap code | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have tons of NSA backdoors | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | pervention of log forgory as what is required to have servers for credit card processing is. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | in other words, they'll have everything cancerd does | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and how does the black box known as journald prevent job forgery? | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | (hint: it doesn't) | Dec 23 02:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: in fact it does you stubmon idiot. | Dec 23 02:33 |
| oiaohm | It meets the banking requirements. | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | how does a huge hairball of unreadable, undocumented, badly written, badly designed code prevent job forgery, you idiot? | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | then the banks have shitty requirements | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | have they audited cancerd? | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | journald with binary logging on fails. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | journald forwarding to syslog passes. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | and syslogs along fail. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | Using syslog and sysvinit means altering all the init scripts to be client wrapped. | Dec 23 02:35 |
| MinceR | again, who has audited cancerd? | Dec 23 02:35 |
| MinceR | if nobody has audited cancerd, how do you know it won't forge log entries passing through it? | Dec 23 02:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry to say journald is audited only for 1 mode. Logging in credit card processing is required to be in a independant server. | Dec 23 02:39 |
| MinceR | i wonder how that hairball could possibly pass any audit | Dec 23 02:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes audited for the 1 mode general users don't use. | Dec 23 02:40 |
| MinceR | "yet another null pointer dereference. ah well, who gives a fuck" | Dec 23 02:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: bank standard if the complete thing crashes it still passes. Invalid information is failure. | Dec 23 02:46 |
| MinceR | security holes can not only cause crashes | Dec 23 02:47 |
| MinceR | they can also cause data to be corrupted | Dec 23 02:47 |
| oiaohm | All the audited null point errors in systemd cause death. Banking automatic drops incomplete information. | Dec 23 02:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so yes different standard to what you and I would normally call acceptable. | Dec 23 02:48 |
| MinceR | have they audited the web server built into journald for remotely exploitable security holes? | Dec 23 02:48 |
| MinceR | nobody would exploit that, right? :> | Dec 23 02:49 |
| oiaohm | http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journal-gatewayd.service.html | Dec 23 02:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.freedesktop.org | systemd-journal-gatewayd.service | Dec 23 02:49 | |
| oiaohm | You mean this MinceR? | Dec 23 02:49 |
| MinceR | yes, that | Dec 23 02:49 |
| oiaohm | If that on in the banking system you are in trouble. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | Features like that can be turned off individually. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | if you have cancerd, winblows or OSuX in a banking system, you're in trouble | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | could poettering conceive of somebody wanting to turn that feature off? | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | usually he can't | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | That gatewayd service is a indenpedepend binary to the main journald binary. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | So yes you can delete it. | Dec 23 02:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: banking systemd is a lot smaller than general systemd after all the non audited parts are deleted. | Dec 23 02:51 |
| MinceR | if somebody finds a vulnerability in cancerd, will that "bank" retain the known broken version or update to the new one with the new holes? | Dec 23 02:51 |
| MinceR | or will they try to backport the fix in the undocumented hairball themselves? | Dec 23 02:52 |
| MinceR | looks like they're really looking for trouble to me | Dec 23 02:52 |
| MinceR | i wonder if that "bank" has more software engineers than redhat (that is, >0) | Dec 23 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Its guys who work for banks who are talking about break up systemd pid1 | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | (it only takes 1 to say "this horrible maldesigned mess will never work"...) | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | have they heard of unix? | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | less work, better results | Dec 23 02:54 |
| oiaohm | The problem here the software engineers at banks are not saying that systemd cannot be fixed. | Dec 23 02:54 |
| oiaohm | They instead point to a stack of areas that need to be rewritten. | Dec 23 02:54 |
| MinceR | i point of a stack of areas that need to be rewritten: 1.) all of the design 2.) all of the code | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | Not all the design. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | There are bits that are right. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| MinceR | it gets failing grade, go back to the drawing board | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | I would say about 10 percent is correct. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Dec 23 02:56 | |
| MinceR | yeah, the bits are correct, they're just in the wrong order | Dec 23 02:56 |
| MinceR | and there's too many of them | Dec 23 02:56 |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 02:57 | |
| oiaohm | Even sections of systemd code are correct. | Dec 23 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Problem here systemd lack of QA processes and lack of time spent design features before implemetning will result in a lot needing to be rebuilt. | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | yes, the empty rows are correct | Dec 23 02:58 |
| oiaohm | No I meant section of functional code is correct in places. | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | lack of clue resulted in that | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | and none of it would be a problem if it wasn't forced on users | Dec 23 02:58 |
| amarsh04 | I don't like it when one gets silence from the Debian maintainer of udev about how to further debug a reported problem | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | yet another atrocious piece of software being an _option_ is not an issue | Dec 23 02:59 |
| oiaohm | Its like the wrapper section of journald | Dec 23 02:59 |
| amarsh04 | and there don't exist much in the way of documentation on debugging | Dec 23 02:59 |
| amarsh04 | doesn't exist | Dec 23 02:59 |
| MinceR | destroying a stable, reliable OS for the sake of denying choice to users is the issue | Dec 23 02:59 |
| MinceR | even though they already had several distros to choose from if they wanted cancerd by default | Dec 23 03:00 |
| MinceR | (and one of their fundamental principles is "choice is bad", so that should be more than enough) | Dec 23 03:00 |
| amarsh04 | I was able to find which version of udev introduced the bug and reported it, but had no assistance on further debugging | Dec 23 03:00 |
| MinceR | only the Chosen at redhat are allowed to have that knowledge | Dec 23 03:01 |
| amarsh04 | fortunately the bug (detecting file system of a mobile handset connecting via usb as a mass storage device) was incidentally fixed with a later update | Dec 23 03:01 |
| amarsh04 | being able to use alternatives keeps the interfaces better documented and understood, and helps debugging | Dec 23 03:02 |
| MinceR | but documented and understood interfaces are not "modern" | Dec 23 03:03 |
| MinceR | apparently | Dec 23 03:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: udev lack of good documentation was a problem before systemd | Dec 23 03:16 |
| MinceR | and has since been compounded by udev being assimilated by systemd | Dec 23 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Systemd is mostly all the underdocumented and undermaintained projects shoved in one project | Dec 23 03:17 |
| MinceR | they went from "our small project has no good documentation" to "our ginormous project has no documentation and we have no motivation to change this" | Dec 23 03:17 |
| oiaohm | The idea behind making it 1 ginormous project is to make it large enough that the lack of documetnation and so on could not be just ingnored over that is only udev....... | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | and yet it's just ignored | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | and it comes in handy for them as it makes users more dependant on redhat | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | so they have to buy support contracts | Dec 23 03:20 |
| oiaohm | In fact systemd documentation of stuff has reduced how much is undocumented. | Dec 23 03:20 |
| oiaohm | Even so there is still a lot still needed. | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | so why do most functions have not a single comment in them?\ | Dec 23 03:21 |
| MinceR | s/.$// | Dec 23 03:21 |
| oiaohm | Most of the imported projects were comment free. | Dec 23 03:21 |
| MinceR | a great tradition that also happens to be "modern" | Dec 23 03:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the problem with all the project that have been merged into the place spreed all over the fact that all those projects lacked QA and documentation was being ingored. | Dec 23 03:31 |
| oiaohm | The one good thing about people being upset about systemd is that they are not be ingored any more. | Dec 23 03:31 |
| MinceR | yeah, right | Dec 23 03:31 |
| MinceR | now that they have even more leverage and they've killed off some competing projects, they have motivation to unfuck things | Dec 23 03:32 |
| MinceR | it worked out that way for microsoft too, right? | Dec 23 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Those competing projects were under QA and underdocuments and complete ingored they were in that state. | Dec 23 03:32 |
| MinceR | they used to compete | Dec 23 03:33 |
| MinceR | now you get a big blob and don't get to change anything about it | Dec 23 03:33 |
| oiaohm | Compete really. | Dec 23 03:33 |
| oiaohm | Lack of developers and updates as well. | Dec 23 03:33 |
| MinceR | and again, you could get this state of matters AND MORE if you just bought winblows, used it, and left debian be | Dec 23 03:33 |
| MinceR | there was no need to demolish the bazaar because you already had the cathedral you wanted | Dec 23 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: again you are missing it. Lot of those under maintained projects were costing Debian time and resources maintaining out of tree patches. | Dec 23 03:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Debian was not being left unaffected by unmaintained projects. | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | finally, debian can spare all that time and all those resources | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | by taking the fedora installer iso, and changing the name and the logo! | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | it's an insignificant loss that from a free, stable, universal OS they've gone to a nonfree, unstable OS that only serves poettering's multihead desktop PC use case | Dec 23 03:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: out of tree patches with the upstream updating without them and not accepting does cost a lot of time. | Dec 23 03:43 |
| MinceR | good thing their new upstream is _so_ accepting of patches | Dec 23 03:43 |
| oiaohm | systemd upstream now accept more patchs from debian maintainers that the split packages before did. | Dec 23 03:44 |
| MinceR | it's easier now that the debian "maintainers" do systemd upstream's bidding | Dec 23 03:44 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 23 03:44 |
| MinceR | after they've turned their backs on their users | Dec 23 03:45 |
| oiaohm | In fact debian maintainers get systemd upstream to change things. | Dec 23 03:45 |
| MinceR | they won't change systemd as much as systemd changed debian | Dec 23 03:45 |
| oiaohm | Like you forget systemd was never going to support seperated /usr directly. | Dec 23 03:45 |
| MinceR | i'm extremely concerned about whether redhat's windows clone was going to support separated /usr | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | because all my wish was to run redhat's windows clone | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | and yet strangely i still wanted to make choices independently of poettering | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | Stop calling it a Windows clone. | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | why stop calling a windows clone a windows clone? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | The structure map matches solaris not Windows. | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | does slowlaris have a broken GUI that only supports client-side decorations? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | A bad copy of solaris | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: client side decorations that is not in fact windows. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| MinceR | is slowlaris as broken as cancerd? | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Note I said bad copy. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | In otherwords systemd is more broken than the SMF and other bits solaris uses todo the same thing. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: windows put windows decorations in kernel space. | Dec 23 03:48 |
| MinceR | i'm awaiting kmutter with bated breath | Dec 23 03:48 |
| MinceR | afaik slowlaris didn't break all the things cancerd and winblows broke | Dec 23 03:49 |
| MinceR | also, is there kdbus in slowlaris? | Dec 23 03:49 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: winblows also put the GUI toolkit in the kernel. | Dec 23 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: solaris kernel has a solaris particular IPC that SMF uses. | Dec 23 03:50 |
| MinceR | fun fact: winblows nt was released well before slowlaris 10 | Dec 23 03:50 |
| MinceR | so it looks like slowlaris is copying winblows too | Dec 23 03:51 |
| MinceR | no wonder it's so crap | Dec 23 03:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: solaris copied another Unix with SMF | Dec 23 03:51 |
| MinceR | which one? | Dec 23 03:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you follow it back far enough it the same unix cuttler took ideas from. | Dec 23 03:52 |
| MinceR | xenix? | Dec 23 03:52 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 23 03:54 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: too microsoft centric. Digital Equipment Corporation is where David cuttler was first employed right MinceR | Dec 23 03:55 |
| oiaohm | What is the name of DEC unit. | Dec 23 03:55 |
| oiaohm | opps Unix. | Dec 23 03:55 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are tracing back to ULTRIX | Dec 23 03:56 |
| MinceR | so, ultrix was crap enough for cutler and sun to copy | Dec 23 03:56 |
| MinceR | and now you claim all unix must change to match the crap design of ultrix, because that's the true unix way | Dec 23 03:57 |
| oiaohm | ULTRIX was not bad. Sun modern implementation is not that bad. Now NT implementation that is 2 step removed. Ultrix design gets converted to VMS that Cutler works on then NT gets made from that. | Dec 23 03:58 |
| oiaohm | Systemd is also two steps removed. | Dec 23 03:59 |
| MinceR | and yet whenever a horrible design flaw in systemd is mentioned, you trace it back to ultrix | Dec 23 03:59 |
| MinceR | it was not bad, just a collection of horrible design flaws? | Dec 23 03:59 |
| oiaohm | The good parts of systemd trace back to Ultrix like proper service tracking. | Dec 23 03:59 |
| MinceR | and it was a unix, even though it violated every bit of the unix philosophy? | Dec 23 04:00 |
| oiaohm | But bad parts like broken logging don't trace to Ultrix at all. | Dec 23 04:00 |
| MinceR | while unixes that do not, or do less so, are not? | Dec 23 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Lack of proper seperation was not a issue in Ultrix | Dec 23 04:00 |
| MinceR | doesn't proper service tracking imply being able to start and stop services reliably? | Dec 23 04:00 |
| oiaohm | Basically Ultrix could start and stop services reliably so can solaris. | Dec 23 04:01 |
| oiaohm | VMS is also able to start and stop services more dependably than Windows NT | Dec 23 04:01 |
| oiaohm | It seams 2 steps removed from Ultrix is not a good place to be. | Dec 23 04:02 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically too much of the requirements for the design to work properly seams to be lost in 2 steps. | Dec 23 04:04 |
| MinceR | the atrocious ideas survive those 2 steps just fine, though | Dec 23 04:04 |
| oiaohm | To be truthful most of the atrocious ideas are not in Ultrix but seam to grow in the steps. | Dec 23 04:06 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I would hate of systemd was truly based on Windows Nt because then it would be 3 steps removed and even a bigger nightmare. | Dec 23 04:07 |
| MinceR | it isn't a big enough nightmare for you? | Dec 23 04:08 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes it is big enough nightmare we don't really need to give developers the idea to go 3 steps removed as well. | Dec 23 04:09 |
| MinceR | they won't do better 2 steps removed from bad ideas either | Dec 23 04:09 |
| MinceR | maybe they should look to less broken unixes for ideas | Dec 23 04:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically you are seeing comoninty between Windows and systemd due to common relation involved. | Dec 23 04:10 |
| MinceR | there's also redcrap wanting microsoft's spot | Dec 23 04:10 |
| MinceR | and copying their methids | Dec 23 04:10 |
| MinceR | s/hid/hod/ | Dec 23 04:10 |
| oiaohm | Redhat is not exactly copying Microsoft methods. | Dec 23 04:11 |
| MinceR | and the hordes of idiots claiming that winblows works so great on the desktop, and therefore gnu/linux should copy it | Dec 23 04:11 |
| MinceR | entryism is not a microsoft method? | Dec 23 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft doing systemd would have seen it under MIT license or equal. With huge number of patents so they could charge anyone who uses it a fortune. | Dec 23 04:11 |
| MinceR | forcing competitors to work in the dark is not a microsoft method? | Dec 23 04:11 |
| MinceR | playing with randomly changing secret APIs is not a microsoft method? | Dec 23 04:11 |
| oiaohm | Changing secret API is a commerical Unix thing just as much as a Microsoft thing. Why autotools has had to exist on Unix to find compadible header files. | Dec 23 04:12 |
| MinceR | at least you _had_ compatible header files | Dec 23 04:13 |
| MinceR | with secret APIs on top of dbus, you don't have an alternative | Dec 23 04:13 |
| MinceR | you could build a shim, only for it to become broken on the next systemd release | Dec 23 04:13 |
| oiaohm | Not documenting sections of API/ABI for commerical advantage starts in the Unix world before Microsoft gets in the server game. | Dec 23 04:13 |
| MinceR | (and dependant application/DE releases) | Dec 23 04:13 |
| oiaohm | Lets please not forget how savage the Unix Wars were. | Dec 23 04:14 |
| MinceR | who did it before m$, and when? | Dec 23 04:14 |
| oiaohm | Microsoft learnt to do it with xenix because all the Unixs they were competeing with at the time were doing it. | Dec 23 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Yes Microsoft learnt some of it bad behavour from the Unix world. | Dec 23 04:15 |
| MinceR | they were careful not to learn anything good, though | Dec 23 04:15 |
| oiaohm | Just as much good comes out the unix world as bad. But microsoft has been a fairly good filtering out only the bad ways do doing thing. | Dec 23 04:16 |
| MinceR | and apparently none of it had anything to do with the people who invented unix | Dec 23 04:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: number of steps removed factor. | Dec 23 04:23 |
| MinceR | i suspect it's more of a "corporate meddling" factor | Dec 23 04:23 |
| oiaohm | Corporate meddling is not a Microsoft unique feature. | Dec 23 04:24 |
| oiaohm | Steps removed fact applies to religion as well a companies. The more steps removed a religions group is from the source group founding the more likely you have terriost actions coming from them based on religion grounds. | Dec 23 04:25 |
| MinceR | and microsoft just happens to be a religion as well as a company | Dec 23 04:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I know hearing that Redhat actions is really just following Unix World nature not what lot want to hear. Even worse is having to accept that some of Microsoft nature comes from the same melting pot. | Dec 23 04:29 |
| oiaohm | Unix world has not been a nice place. | Dec 23 04:29 |
| MinceR | with the right sources, it could also be enlightening | Dec 23 04:29 |
| MinceR | and of course none of this justifies cancerd | Dec 23 04:29 |
| MinceR | or what redcrap does, or what m$ does | Dec 23 04:30 |
| oiaohm | Some of the changes of systemd is justified. The question is can systemd code base ever get cleaned. | Dec 23 04:30 |
| MinceR | it can't be, and there's no point | Dec 23 04:31 |
| MinceR | the fundamental design is broken and the code is a mess | Dec 23 04:31 |
| MinceR | it would be better to redesign and rewrite on a sane base | Dec 23 04:31 |
| MinceR | preferably by people who know what they're doing | Dec 23 04:31 |
| oiaohm | Sorry fundamental design issues of systemd could possible be fixed by internal redesign. | Dec 23 04:31 |
| MinceR | unlikely | Dec 23 04:31 |
| MinceR | they're doing the wrong things in the wrong place for the wrong reason | Dec 23 04:32 |
| MinceR | and what's worse, they don't even understand how they've fucked up | Dec 23 04:32 |
| oiaohm | Doing things in the wrong place for the wrong reason was true for Linux kernel locking. | Dec 23 04:32 |
| MinceR | they'll tell you this is the "modern" way to do things | Dec 23 04:32 |
| oiaohm | And that was fixable by internal redesign. | Dec 23 04:32 |
| MinceR | at least linux is (for now) controlled by someone who knows what he's doing | Dec 23 04:32 |
| MinceR | compare that to poettering | Dec 23 04:33 |
| oiaohm | Please remember at the start Linus did not know what he was doing this is why locking was done wrong in the first place. | Dec 23 04:33 |
| oiaohm | So comparing poettering to Linus there is a chance poettering could still improve like Linus did. | Dec 23 04:33 |
| MinceR | and yet linus had enough clue to choose unix has his model | Dec 23 04:33 |
| MinceR | not windows, not vms, not ultrix | Dec 23 04:34 |
| MinceR | s/has/as/ | Dec 23 04:34 |
| MinceR | and not slowlaris | Dec 23 04:34 |
| oiaohm | Sections in the Linux kernel are based on BSD and solaris and they were put there by Linus. Yes sections of Linux kernel don't match unix specifications either. | Dec 23 04:35 |
| MinceR | bsd is, for now, saner than windows, vms, ultrix and slowlaris, as far as i can tell | Dec 23 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix was highly sane. | Dec 23 04:36 |
| MinceR | apparently even freebsd has enough clue to keep the cancer confined to a fork | Dec 23 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Very strong on the QA processes. | Dec 23 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix was known for heavy and complete QA processes. | Dec 23 04:36 |
| MinceR | how did their QA processes miss the fact that binary logging is retarded, then? | Dec 23 04:36 |
| oiaohm | Ultrix binary logging had working log rotation and all the good things. | Dec 23 04:37 |
| oiaohm | and none of the stupidity causing heavy cpu usage/memory usage. | Dec 23 04:37 |
| oiaohm | A proper enforced qa process auditing memory usage as well as security forced on systemd would change it in so many ways it not funny. | Dec 23 04:38 |
| MinceR | "security forced on systemd" involves at the very least auditing that enormous hairball, if not rewriting it entirely | Dec 23 04:39 |
| MinceR | (at least in the latter case you don't have to decipher it) | Dec 23 04:39 |
| MinceR | plus you'll have to separate a lot of modules that weren't designed or written to be separable | Dec 23 04:40 |
| oiaohm | Even attempting to rewrite new without a proper QA process the rewrite risks just making a new hair ball. | Dec 23 04:40 |
| MinceR | of course | Dec 23 04:40 |
| MinceR | you'd have to have clueful people rewrite it, not poettering | Dec 23 04:40 |
| oiaohm | The big thing that happens a 2 steps removed is normally the QA process has magically disappeared. | Dec 23 04:40 |
| MinceR | i think poettering could still have a fulfilling career cleaning toilets or something like that | Dec 23 04:40 |
| oiaohm | No cleaning toilets has a formal QA process. | Dec 23 04:41 |
| MinceR | well, then he's screwed | Dec 23 04:41 |
| oiaohm | The reality due to poettering lack of QA usage he is not suitable to clean tollets. | Dec 23 04:41 |
| MinceR | he could take a government job in hungary | Dec 23 04:42 |
| MinceR | no competence whatsoever is generally required for those | Dec 23 04:42 |
| oiaohm | You think about to tollet QA involved making sure after cleaning that it can flush and that the water flows away. Really would you want to use a tollet that is maintained by a person who does not follow basic QA. | Dec 23 04:44 |
| MinceR | or he could take a code monkey job at m$ | Dec 23 04:51 |
| MinceR | one more idiot there wouldn't make a difference | Dec 23 04:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: winehq.org the wine project is modern development style. Please note being modern does not mean not doing QA processes after patch application. http://test.winehq.org/data/ | Dec 23 05:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-test.winehq.org | Wine test runs | Dec 23 05:41 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 09:21 | |
| *Cirrus_Minor (~Cirrus_Mi@CAcert/Cirrus-Minor) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 09:29 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 09:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/BrideOfLinux/status/679491430172209153 | Dec 23 09:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@BrideOfLinux: On TV, Cisco kid was a hero, but in O Henry's story, an outlaw responsible for at least eighteen deaths. Apropos. https://t.co/4TgpdUnY41 | Dec 23 09:34 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @BrideOfLinux Waiting for Cisco to come up with some more stories, as they did last year.... | Dec 23 09:34 | |
| *Cirrus_Minor has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 23 09:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6925243 | Dec 23 09:43 |
| schestowitz | "LibreJS, NoScript, Privacy Badger and ad blockers are your friends. but yeah, with all this polution, it’s very hard to breathe on the web these days." | Dec 23 09:43 |
| schestowitz | Even harder with mobile browsers | Dec 23 09:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Remember the days when you could access a Web page without contacting dozens of servers/domains that want to run programs on your PC? | Dec 23 09:43 | |
| schestowitz | > older: | Dec 23 09:58 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 23 09:58 |
| schestowitz | > https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/12/17/so-called-oversight-in-omnicisa/ | Dec 23 09:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.emptywheel.net/2015/12/17/so-called-oversight-in-omnicisa/ ) | Dec 23 09:58 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 23 09:58 |
| schestowitz | > her RSS feed looks broken | Dec 23 09:58 |
| schestowitz | Someone ought to tell her | Dec 23 09:58 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 09:59 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 10:23 | |
| schestowitz | http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/12/22/mark-levin-attacks-wall-street-journal-editoria/207682 | Dec 23 10:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-mediamatters.org | Mark Levin Attacks Wall Street Journal Editorial Highlighting The Uncompromising Conservative Media Standard For GOP Candidates | Blog | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvq ] | Dec 23 10:56 | |
| schestowitz | "When we started building Mono back in 2001, we wanted to get something up and running very quickly. The idea was to have enough of a system running on Linux that we could have a fully self-hosting C# environment in a short period of time, and we managed to do this within eight months. " | Dec 23 10:56 |
| schestowitz | oops, wrong url | Dec 23 10:56 |
| schestowitz | http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2015/Dec-22.html | Dec 23 10:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-tirania.org | Mono's Cooperative Mode for SGen GC - Miguel de Icaza [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvr ] | Dec 23 10:56 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926355 | Dec 23 11:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Watch what #intel and #microsoft are doing with "national security" (back door) boot in #uefi https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2015/12/22/uefi-and-opensuse-leap-42-1/ http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/UEFI | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> nwrickert2.wordpress.com | UEFI and opensuse Leap 42.1 | Thoughts on computing | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | UEFI - Techrights | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| *Anonymous (5fd73e40@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.215.62.64) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 11:28 | |
| *Anonymous is now known as Guest58361 | Dec 23 11:28 | |
| *Guest58361 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) | Dec 23 11:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679626569808130048 | Dec 23 11:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I guess Cisco could always claim they were hacked. | Dec 23 11:37 | |
| schestowitz | That's what they usually say | Dec 23 11:37 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/angrymofo/status/679627024881840129 | Dec 23 11:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@angrymofo: @schestowitz MHz for MHz and GB for GB nothing beats raw metal if you can afford to buy it up front. | Dec 23 11:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679630862820839425 | Dec 23 12:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy My understanding was that it was performed after the product left cisco. | Dec 23 12:03 | |
| schestowitz | That's the beacon thing, separate (and worse) thing | Dec 23 12:03 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679631071135182848 | Dec 23 12:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong or misinformed. Not even the first time today. :D | Dec 23 12:04 | |
| schestowitz | The Cisco PR strategy a few months ago was to paint it all as intervention by NSA >outside< of #cisco | Dec 23 12:04 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679634534866894848 | Dec 23 12:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Thank you for clearing that up for me. | Dec 23 12:19 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 23 12:34 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: it would be pretty horrible if we were forced to run wine | Dec 23 13:23 |
| cubexyz | I run wine occasionally for the odd game | Dec 23 13:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to particular things I am forced to. | Dec 23 13:28 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 23 14:25 | |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 15:22 | |
| cubexyz | I tried to divide Linux executables into 'apps' and 'commands' | Dec 23 16:07 |
| cubexyz | but it seems to be a bit arbitrary | Dec 23 16:08 |
| MinceR | i run 'apps' with 'commands' :> | Dec 23 16:08 |
| MinceR | e.g. nohup iceweasel -P -no-remote &! | Dec 23 16:09 |
| cubexyz | so I think what I really meant was command line program vs gui program | Dec 23 16:09 |
| cubexyz | MinceR, I think I'd write a small script for that | Dec 23 16:09 |
| cubexyz | seems like a lot to type | Dec 23 16:09 |
| MinceR | i just recall it from history with ^R | Dec 23 16:10 |
| cubexyz | anyone know where the source is for crontab? | Dec 23 16:25 |
| *siel has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 23 16:27 | |
| cubexyz | Paul Vixie wrote it I think | Dec 23 16:28 |
| *siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 16:29 | |
| cubexyz | but written by Matthew Dillon on the Linux side | Dec 23 16:32 |
| *siel has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 23 16:34 | |
| *siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 16:34 | |
| cubexyz | but Fedora uses anacron? | Dec 23 16:36 |
| cubexyz | someone trying to be funny | Dec 23 16:37 |
| MinceR | there is anacron, but i'm not sure what's the point | Dec 23 16:47 |
| cubexyz | it's like a different cron | Dec 23 16:49 |
| cubexyz | it can run stuff on machines that don't run 24/7 | Dec 23 16:49 |
| cubexyz | Dec 23 16:50 | |
| cubexyz | could be a fedora thing | Dec 23 16:50 |
| *siel has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 23 16:51 | |
| cubexyz | although q4os also has anacron | Dec 23 16:51 |
| cubexyz | http://www.thegeekstuff.com/2011/05/anacron-examples/ | Dec 23 16:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.thegeekstuff.com | Cron Vs Anacron: How to Setup Anacron on Linux (With an Example) | Dec 23 16:53 | |
| MinceR | sure, but i thought part of the point of cronjobs was that stuff runs when regularly the machine is not under heavy use | Dec 23 16:54 |
| MinceR | running a bunch of stuff the machine missed on boot seems to be counterproductive | Dec 23 16:54 |
| cubexyz | well it's time based not load based | Dec 23 16:54 |
| MinceR | s/\(when\) \(regularly\)/\2 \1/ | Dec 23 16:54 |
| cubexyz | so I run stuff at 3 am or 4 am usually | Dec 23 16:54 |
| MinceR | i thought ordinary cron could do that too | Dec 23 16:54 |
| cubexyz | regularly? | Dec 23 16:55 |
| MinceR | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | Dec 23 16:56 |
| cubexyz | I don't think it's smart enough to run stuff when it's not used | Dec 23 16:56 |
| cubexyz | e.g. when no users are logged in? | Dec 23 16:56 |
| cubexyz | if a cron job is missed I guess it waits for the next event | Dec 23 16:58 |
| cubexyz | and the log for cron is a bit confusing too | Dec 23 17:05 |
| cubexyz | there's /var/log/cron but there's also /var/log/messages | Dec 23 17:05 |
| cubexyz | mainly mine just runs updatedb once a day and sendmail stuff | Dec 23 17:09 |
| cubexyz | oh and the irc log stuff | Dec 23 17:09 |
| *jgay has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 23 17:15 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/UbuntuTopNews/status/679654751462506496 | Dec 23 17:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@UbuntuTopNews: Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch https://t.co/LQyUBZDgt8 via @schestowitz https://t.co/4gqFgCGKcY | Dec 23 17:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> gettopical.com | Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch | Dec 23 17:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@UbuntuTopNews: Make a Wish for What App You Want on Ubuntu Touch https://t.co/LQyUBZDgt8 via @schestowitz https://t.co/4gqFgCGKcY | Dec 23 17:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/emptywheel/status/679665435344789504 | Dec 23 17:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@emptywheel: @schestowitz Thanks. Any idea what time frame? | Dec 23 17:18 | |
| schestowitz | before morning GMT, maybe still | Dec 23 17:18 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/chirho928/status/679713334841589760 | Dec 23 17:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@chirho928: @UbuntuTopNews @schestowitz I'm wishing for Office Suite with lots of connectivity, especially with printers. Practicality before fun. | Dec 23 17:29 | |
| schestowitz | LibreOffice is coming to mobile | Dec 23 17:29 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/679713889605435393 | Dec 23 17:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: A tweet like this MUST have a backstory... https://t.co/8BwgtwtG8J | Dec 23 17:30 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @emptywheel before morning GMT, maybe still | Dec 23 17:30 | |
| schestowitz | Broken RSS feed | Dec 23 17:30 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FrancisJeffrey7/status/679714532789374977 | Dec 23 17:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FrancisJeffrey7: @schestowitz Go Go Golden Bears ! --Berkeley class of '72 | Dec 23 17:30 | |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 17:30 | |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 17:32 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 17:34 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 18:05 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/agente_smithe/status/679721414052737025 | Dec 23 19:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@agente_smithe: @schestowitz Hi there and Merry Xmas, Dr. Roy. About your talk with RMS, regarding Red Rat & MS, how things evolved ? If they evolved. | Dec 23 19:00 | |
| schestowitz | no change... | Dec 23 19:00 |
| schestowitz | jgay: any update? | Dec 23 19:01 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 20:31 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| MinceR | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW5RizmWQAAAl3F.png | Dec 23 23:00 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 23 23:17 | |
| cubexyz | I don't think anyone is removing buffer length checks | Dec 23 23:48 |
| *siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 00:05 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 24 01:26 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 24 01:36 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 01:59 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 24 02:07 | |
| *wEs84 (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 03:09 | |
| *wEs84 is now known as wEs | Dec 24 03:11 | |
| *wEs has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 24 03:19 | |
| *wEs (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 03:22 | |
| *wEs has quit (Quit: Gtg See ya Later) | Dec 24 03:29 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 24 04:48 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 04:50 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/innova_scape/status/679948032599797760 | Dec 24 08:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@innova_scape: RT : Google and Other Tech Giants Open Source BS to name as it didn't liberate SOFTWARE https://t.co/bloIomQXyz | Dec 24 08:54 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Google and Other Tech Giants Open Source #MachineLearning https://t.co/8aeNPYtz4B BS to name #facebook as it didn't liberate SOFTWARE | Dec 24 08:54 | |
| schestowitz | >> > http://searchsecurity.techtarget.com/news/4500260750/Old-Microsoft-Kerberos-vulnerability-gets-new-spotlight | Dec 24 09:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-searchsecurity.techtarget.com | Old Microsoft Kerberos vulnerability gets new spotlight | Dec 24 09:04 | |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > M$ contributions to security | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > - | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.fiercecio.com/story/researcher-highlights-serious-flaw-windows-kerberos-authentication/2015-12-15 | Dec 24 09:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.fiercecio.com | Researcher highlights serious flaw in Windows Kerberos authentication - FierceCIO [ http://ur1.ca/ocwob ] | Dec 24 09:04 | |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | >> > == | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > [snip] | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > This might be why GRUB stays in the news. M$ implementation of kerberos | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > is fundamentally broken. This fact should be bigger than the openssl | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > bug and the warnings that the kerberos community got before M$ | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | > interference dusted off and brought forward again. | Dec 24 09:04 |
| schestowitz | I thought about it.... | Dec 24 09:04 |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 10:55 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 11:49 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450896537025#c1574256729623240792 | Dec 24 13:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters | Dec 24 13:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | 2016 budget | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Board of Appeal planned to decrease in budgeted size by over 1%. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | President's Office planned to increase in budgeted size by nearly 20%. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | What more need be said? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450898317581#c7071748749463986149 | Dec 24 13:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzc ] | Dec 24 13:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Will HR be equally self-financing? And, if so, how? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Not even DG1 is self-financed. Searches cost money, examinations cost money, oppositions cost money, appeals cost money. DG0/2/4/5 cost money. The AC costs money. It's all funded by renewal fees. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Missing members - 18 now but how many after end of year retirements? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | According to this post, there will be 27 missing members at the end of this year. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | There can't be anybody ready beyond personal nomination by him? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Yep. It is almost surprising that it has not happened earlier. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Regarding "how is he going to do that", I was mainly wondering how he is going to decide what the new proposal will contain if the AC has taken the task of drafting the proposal out of his hands. But the exact situation at the moment is not clear to me. If the recent interview is anything to go by, we're simply back to March this year... BB gets another try but this time without a user survey, so without the need to misrepresent input from | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | users. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450907943032#c9104676679831085546 | Dec 24 13:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzg ] | Dec 24 13:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | How could the EPO even enforce the ban on a new work? This he would have to do under the national law of themember state where I would want to work, as only those courts apply to me then. And these court cases arenearly always lost, thus the employee may do the desired work. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | I see more an issue finding sn employer who is willing to take the risk, as he could influence a proceeding revoking them their representative status, or as suggested above by Cynic.. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, he should then also prevent any external ones from applying for posts at the BoA, as their previous colleagues could try to influence case in their client's favour. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | - one of those EPO examiners. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450942427785#c3900027317862986665 | Dec 24 13:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzh ] | Dec 24 13:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | @ one of those epo examiners. How? The same way the investigations into the suicides were stopped: by not paying the pensions. That is, even though illegal, a mighty good weapon in view of the fact that it takes 14 years to gain your case. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Sadcat | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 24 14:45 | |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 14:52 | |
| *XRevan86 has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 24 15:02 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 15:03 | |
| *Sosumi has quit (Quit: Bye) | Dec 24 15:30 | |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 24 17:06 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 17:18 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest5230 | Dec 24 17:19 | |
| *Guest5230 is now known as DaemonFC | Dec 24 17:22 | |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Changing host) | Dec 24 17:22 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@unaffiliated/daemonfc) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 17:22 | |
| msb__ | https://www.rt.com/news/326814-error-451-government-blocked/ | Dec 24 17:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rt.com | Error 451: New Bradbury-inspired HTTP code to show legal censorship — RT News [ http://ur1.ca/ocx8z ] | Dec 24 17:48 | |
| msb__ | https://motherboard.vice.com/read/the-http-451-error-code-for-censorship-is-now-an-internet-standard | Dec 24 17:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-motherboard.vice.com | The HTTP 451 Error Code for Censorship Is Now an Internet Standard | Motherboard [ http://ur1.ca/ocx92 ] | Dec 24 17:49 | |
| DaemonFC | I got one of my cats spayed yesterday. They must have given her too much anesthetic. She's just now starting to come out of it. | Dec 24 18:01 |
| DaemonFC | Trying to monitor her fluid intake. | Dec 24 18:01 |
| msb__ | I've had vets kill cats by outrageous malpractice. | Dec 24 18:11 |
| msb__ | They use teenage girls as assistants who know nothing. | Dec 24 18:11 |
| cubexyz | wow, Fahrenheit 451 for real | Dec 24 18:11 |
| *Anonymous (25fcbea5@gateway/web/freenode/ip.37.252.190.165) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 18:12 | |
| *Anonymous is now known as Guest96130 | Dec 24 18:12 | |
| Guest96130 | Hi! I´m the one who wrote to you about the Chabod letter. I have the letter | Dec 24 18:13 |
| Guest96130 | but I cannot send it now since I´m away for holidays. | Dec 24 18:13 |
| Guest96130 | You´ll get it after New Year. | Dec 24 18:13 |
| Guest96130 | I can scan it although I´d prefer to send it by post. | Dec 24 18:14 |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 24 18:14 | |
| Guest96130 | I wish I could see an email address or a normal post address somewhere on the site. | Dec 24 18:15 |
| Guest96130 | We´re all getting paranoid about net security with Control Risks working for Batistelli. | Dec 24 18:16 |
| Guest96130 | We´re truly grateful for your blog! | Dec 24 18:16 |
| *Guest96130 has quit (Quit: Page closed) | Dec 24 18:17 | |
| msb__ | Guest96130: look at http://techrights.org/home/ for contact info. | Dec 24 18:17 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-techrights.org | Techrights | People's rights in the digital age | Plutocracy threatened by freedom, democracy, privacy & civil rights | Dec 24 18:17 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 18:22 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest61500 | Dec 24 18:22 | |
| msb__ | Guest61500: are you previous Guest96130? | Dec 24 18:23 |
| *Guest61500 is now known as DaemonFC | Dec 24 18:23 | |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Changing host) | Dec 24 18:24 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@unaffiliated/daemonfc) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 18:24 | |
| DaemonFC | Hell if I know. Chrome IRC is about the shittiest IRC client ever. | Dec 24 18:24 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: They seem to know what they're doing. | Dec 24 18:24 |
| msb__ | DaemonFC: Who? | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | They handle the spay and neuter program for Fort Wayne Animal Care and Control and have a bunch of good reviews on Facebook and Google. | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | The Spay and Neuter Clinic. | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | Her vet wanted like $275. Needless to say, it's not in the budget right now. | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | I spent a lot of money moving here, and then my cat died. | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | He had some expensive bills before we had to have him put down. | Dec 24 18:25 |
| DaemonFC | There's a couple of low cost spay and neuter clinics here. They're like $55-65 for a female cat, and like $40 for a male cat. | Dec 24 18:26 |
| msb__ | One of my cats needed a slow calcium drip because of gland problem. Moron vet gave her a calcium bolus which solidified her circulatory system and killed her. | Dec 24 18:27 |
| DaemonFC | I'm not too worried about the vet's experience level. She does hundreds of these every month. | Dec 24 18:27 |
| MinceR | http://metro.co.uk/2015/06/11/bad-news-for-anyone-who-likes-to-drink-camel-urine-5240920/ | Dec 24 18:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-metro.co.uk | This is why people drink camel urine | Metro News | Dec 24 18:27 | |
| DaemonFC | It's better to get the cat spayed even if she won't be near a male. They go into heat if you don't. It's very annoying and it's really hard on them to keep going through heat cycles. | Dec 24 18:28 |
| msb__ | Another vet did extensive cancer surgery on my cat, and put him in overnight care. Teenage girl workers there yanked his tail to move or control him, spraining it severely. | Dec 24 18:28 |
| DaemonFC | Plus, not having the reproductive parts means they can't get a disease (like cancer) in any of those bits. | Dec 24 18:28 |
| DaemonFC | If she was like 5-6, I probably wouldn't have gotten it done. | Dec 24 18:29 |
| DaemonFC | Younger cats recover much faster. | Dec 24 18:29 |
| msb__ | Yes, or you can dildoize them with a blunt-nosed plastic medicine dropper -- carefully! That gets them out of heat. | Dec 24 18:29 |
| DaemonFC | It didn't take Jabba very long to bounce back at all, but he was a male. It's a much simpler operation on males. | Dec 24 18:29 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I'll just pretend I didn't read that. :P | Dec 24 18:30 |
| msb__ | I read it in a book on cat care. | Dec 24 18:30 |
| DaemonFC | Spayed and neutered cats tend to live longer. | Dec 24 18:31 |
| msb__ | ...except it said to ask your vet for a glass rod for the purpose. | Dec 24 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: With a male, you really don't have a choice, unless you like an aggressive cat that goes around pissing on your stuff. LOL | Dec 24 18:31 |
| msb__ | Perhaps same is true of people if genitals are removed. | Dec 24 18:31 |
| msb__ | Yes, that's true. | Dec 24 18:31 |
| DaemonFC | I've been watching House of Cards. | Dec 24 18:32 |
| DaemonFC | The US version. | Dec 24 18:33 |
| DaemonFC | I'm thinking that Frank Underwood would make a better president than we've had in a while, and he's killed at least two people that we know of so far. | Dec 24 18:33 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I've been buying up Blu Ray discs on Amazon UK. It's cheaper for me to pay in GBP and import them to the US. | Dec 24 18:35 |
| DaemonFC | They still cost half of what they do here, it's ridiculous. | Dec 24 18:35 |
| DaemonFC | Different distributor maybe? Lower price because the stuff is less popular there? | Dec 24 18:35 |
| DaemonFC | It's also the most favorable exchange rate we've had in a while. The USD is unusually strong as of late. | Dec 24 18:36 |
| DaemonFC | It's also been the warmest winter in Indiana in years. Yesterday, we broke temperature records from 1933. | Dec 24 18:49 |
| DaemonFC | We also had a huge thunderstorm and a couple of tornadoes, which is almost unheard of during this time of the year. | Dec 24 18:49 |
| DaemonFC | If people were any kind of reasonable, having a governor that says there's no such thing as climate change in office while this kind of crap is going on outside would almost be comical. | Dec 24 18:50 |
| DaemonFC | We haven't had a "normal"-ish year of weather where I live since 2011. | Dec 24 18:50 |
| DaemonFC | There was the record drought in the summer of 2012, where we also got fried by temperatures in the 115 degree F range for days on end. It was in the 80s in March of that year... | Dec 24 18:52 |
| DaemonFC | 2013 and 2014 were the coldest winters ever. It dropped down to 30 degrees below zero both years. It never got warm enough for any of the snow to melt, so we had two feet of snow in my yard. Snow plows were running out of places to put it. Fort Wayne's snow removal budget ran out several times and the mayor had to top it off with money from the city Light Lease fund. | Dec 24 18:53 |
| DaemonFC | 2015-2016 might be the year with no winter at all. It was 66 degrees yesterday. | Dec 24 18:53 |
| DaemonFC | The normal amount of heating should have produced an electric bill close to $100 for an apartment like mine. I opened it up this month and it was $32. | Dec 24 18:54 |
| DaemonFC | There was also record rainfall this summer, which drowned a bunch of corn and caused it to die off. | Dec 24 18:54 |
| DaemonFC | Of course, the farmers have no reason to care because the federal government comes in and pays off all of the projected losses for stuff that they tried to grow, so they actually make more money on years where it fails. | Dec 24 18:55 |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 18:55 | |
| DaemonFC | There's going to be a day of reckoning. | Dec 24 18:56 |
| DaemonFC | I saw an article about "9 things you didn't know there was a shortage of". Of course, coffee and chocolate will not be a huge concern when food shortages leave shelves bare and food inflation is in the triple digits for what they do have. | Dec 24 18:57 |
| DaemonFC | msb__: I've been using the Chromebook mostly since the move. I'm responsible for the electric now. | Dec 24 19:17 |
| DaemonFC | It only uses like 14 watts even when it's under full load. | Dec 24 19:17 |
| DaemonFC | I'd like to see a Chromebox that can output at 2160p. I'd love to hook that up to my TV. | Dec 24 19:18 |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 24 19:19 | |
| *DaemonFC has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 24 20:20 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 24 20:21 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 21:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/680141456531664896 | Dec 24 21:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz Finally ended my apple connection today with the selling of my iPhone. Can't see myself going back, just getting worse. | Dec 24 21:48 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 24 22:31 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/nomorecakepls/status/680147658519003137 | Dec 24 23:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@nomorecakepls: @schestowitz @Messgorough Shame on you PayPal! | Dec 24 23:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/haniefhaider/status/680150329900535808 | Dec 24 23:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@haniefhaider: @schestowitz I also don't like PayPal. But forced to open a PP account when buying through eBay. So unfair. | Dec 24 23:12 | |
| schestowitz | Same here | Dec 24 23:12 |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 23:20 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 25 00:06 | |
| cubexyz | first december I can remember without any snow at all | Dec 25 00:38 |
| cubexyz | only a few flakes that melted a few minutes later | Dec 25 00:38 |
| cubelog | ps | Dec 25 01:13 |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 03:23 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest57955 | Dec 25 03:23 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 25 03:34 | |
| *Guest57955 has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 25 04:18 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 04:18 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest99176 | Dec 25 04:19 | |
| *scientes (~Shawn@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 04:27 | |
| scientes | Merry Christmas schestowitz | Dec 25 04:29 |
| *MinceR has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 25 05:08 | |
| *MinceR (~mincer@unaffiliated/mincer) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 05:10 | |
| *WeS (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 06:08 | |
| *WeS has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 06:09 | |
| msb__ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0gfTr1jqLY | Dec 25 07:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | Lick the Tins - Can't Help Falling in Love - YouTube | Dec 25 07:05 | |
| *Guest99176 has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 25 07:45 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 25 09:57 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 10:00 | |
| *scientes has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 25 10:55 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 11:07 | |
| schestowitz | just woke up | Dec 25 12:09 |
| schestowitz | midday | Dec 25 12:09 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: didn't know it was warm in n america too this year | Dec 25 12:10 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/680208581598253056 | Dec 25 12:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Have you decided what to use next? I've just switched to GNOME, again :)) from Cinnamon. | Dec 25 12:11 | |
| schestowitz | KDE3 is not simple to move to anymore (and systemd is not helping), so unsure what would have functional parity, still need to think/test | Dec 25 12:11 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 12:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 25 12:15 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | Tis the season for bad laws, | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | fa la-la, la-la, la la-la, la. | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 12:16 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926327 | Dec 25 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: "Fox 'News' has a long history of promoting sexism on-air" http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/12/22/fox-ne #newscorp | Dec 25 12:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> mediamatters.org | Fox News' 10 Most Cringe-Worthy Sexist Moments Of 2015 | Research | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocyed ] | Dec 25 12:18 | |
| schestowitz | "A sandwich shop close to work put in a TV and had Fox News running on it. The show featured half a dozen attractive women sitting on a stage talking about a “study” that concluded men could assemble furniture faster than women. Everywhere you go, there’s a TV pouring out corporate distraction and bullshit." | Dec 25 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Reinforcing the patriarchy, to brainwash women too... | Dec 25 12:18 |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 12:28 | |
| oiaohm | This kinda shows how security stuff just gets pushed back http://www.eweek.com/security/companies-get-two-year-reprieve-in-being-fully-pci-dss-compliant.html | Dec 25 12:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.eweek.com | PCI DSS Dials Back on SSL/TLS 1.1 Requirement | Dec 25 12:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/recuweb/status/680370193747423232 | Dec 25 13:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@recuweb: @schestowitz It’s almost always harder toraiseCapital than you thought it would be, and it always takes longer. So plan for that. | Dec 25 13:19 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yea, seen that | Dec 25 13:29 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: security comes second, apparently | Dec 25 13:29 |
| schestowitz | after "national security" | Dec 25 13:29 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 13:41 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 13:43 | |
| cubexyz | try q4os with trinity | Dec 25 14:07 |
| *scientes (~Shawn@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:12 | |
| schestowitz | what will happen to the settings of my qt5 applications? | Dec 25 14:13 |
| schestowitz | like kate? | Dec 25 14:13 |
| cubexyz | I think trinity uses qt3 and qt4 | Dec 25 14:14 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 14:15 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-kate.png | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | so there is kate, but I think it's mostly like KDE 3.5.10 kate with a few updates | Dec 25 14:18 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:29 | |
| schestowitz | I still like some KDE applications | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | I just don't want the whole plasma BS | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | I can run kde apps under another environment | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | need klipper and a few other kde tools | Dec 25 14:41 |
| *wEs84 (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:53 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/680403861929066496 | Dec 25 15:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: I hope for such decision in @debian too. https://t.co/IldpnRZKXm | Dec 25 15:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Software packaged in Fedora should not be allowed to implement DRM schemes that cannot be disabled https://t.co/GJ8ODOqOtr #mozilla #firefox | Dec 25 15:08 | |
| cubexyz | one can use klipper with other window managers | Dec 25 15:33 |
| cubexyz | e.g. icewm + klipper + some gnome stuff + some other KDE stuff | Dec 25 15:34 |
| schestowitz | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3xurro/remember_when_computer_magazines_used_to/ | Dec 25 15:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.reddit.com | Remember when computer magazines used to encourage you to learn, program and create, rather than just tell you what products to buy? We do, so 3 years ago we started a magazine like that, in Finnish. Now we'd like to bring it to you in English, as well. : linux | Dec 25 15:37 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/matthewstinar/status/680410575868944384 | Dec 25 16:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@matthewstinar: @schestowitz This one goes on my list of things that shouldn't need to be said. | Dec 25 16:05 | |
| MinceR | one can also use ClipIt instead of klipper | Dec 25 16:09 |
| cubexyz | sure... xfce has clipman | Dec 25 16:10 |
| cubexyz | choice is good | Dec 25 16:10 |
| schestowitz | http://nicholaswilson.com/fairheads-corrupt-appointment-to-bbc/ | Dec 25 16:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-nicholaswilson.com | Fairhead’s corrupt appointment to BBC | Mr Ethical | Dec 25 16:10 | |
| *sebsebseb (~unitytrye@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:25 | |
| sebsebseb | hi | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | wheover else may be here | Dec 25 16:25 |
| schestowitz | cheers | Dec 25 16:27 |
| schestowitz | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 16:27 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/merry-newtonmass.jpg | Dec 25 16:27 |
| MinceR | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 16:28 |
| cubexyz | 1642 | Dec 25 16:31 |
| sebsebseb | grav mass oh?? | Dec 25 16:37 |
| sebsebseb | why you caling it that | Dec 25 16:37 |
| cubexyz | some say netwonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 16:38 |
| cubexyz | ugh | Dec 25 16:38 |
| cubexyz | some say newtonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 16:38 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 16:57 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:07 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest35438 | Dec 25 17:07 | |
| *Guest35438 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 25 17:21 | |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: https://stallman.org/grav-mass.html | Dec 25 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stallman.org | Celebrate Grav-Mass | Dec 25 17:24 | |
| schestowitz | wtf? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | is sddm systemd dm? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I was just asked, when installing gnome, if I want gdm and sddm | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Which I guess is that crappy thing which *buntu now uses | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | is this a systemd thing? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I am trying to quit kde for the first time in 16 years | Dec 25 17:51 |
| MinceR | dunno, i've never heard of sddm before | Dec 25 17:51 |
| schestowitz | I've basically had enough | Dec 25 17:51 |
| schestowitz | they add new bugs quicker than they remove existing ones | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | if I click a link in konversion it now freezed for almost a minute | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | !google linux sddm | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - SDDM - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SDDM | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Display manager - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_manager | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Simple Desktop Display Manager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Desktop_Display_Manager | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Display Managers In Plasma 5 | David Edmundson's Web Log | http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/display_managers_finale | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | OK, so not a systemd thing | Dec 25 17:52 |
| MinceR | ah, waylandows thing | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | ewww | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | though x11 also | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | waylenndows | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | grasslin loves it | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | at least grasslin has enough clue to recognize that CSD sucks | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | also a redhat thing, with intel(lligence agencies) | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | unlike most of the waylandows fans | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | much like systemd and uefi/shim | Dec 25 17:54 |
| MinceR | apparently sddm comes partly from kde and lxqt people | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | I wish I could go back 5 years for proper distros | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | vista 10 shows even windows is being broken | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | more than ever, now a crappy keylogger | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | and we too, led by red hat, seem to be subjected to masochism | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | now gnome is installing loads of games | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | why are they part of the base, I just want the shell thing | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | nmap | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | odd, gnome now comes with nmap in the metapackage gnome | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | what gnome application needs nmap? | Dec 25 17:56 |
| XFaCE | schestowitz: switch to xfce? | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Too late, unless gnome sucks too | Dec 25 17:56 |
| MinceR | gnome has sucked since 2.x | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I tried enlightenment, but it doesn't do a good enough job detecting and configuring my screens | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | at least gnome is likely to do a decent enough job detecting external laptop dsplay/s | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | rianne has xfce installed | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | *ugly | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | I wished dpkg had some progress indicator based on the number of packages left to process | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: what are you using as a DE? | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | And does it sit on top of a Lennix base? | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | I made a huge mistake in April, I was hoping it would get better, got all the updates, backports, whatever | Dec 25 17:58 |
| MinceR | xfce and lxde and no | Dec 25 17:58 |
| XRevan86 | MATE, Cinnamon | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:23]<schestowitz> but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:27]<schestowitz> *ugly | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | well that's the default | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | a quick theme change and stuff fixes that easily | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | dedoimedo has a lot of tutorials for xfce for that issue | Dec 25 17:59 |
| schestowitz | even with customisation you couldn't get the same visual effects | Dec 25 17:59 |
| MinceR | i don't need visual effects | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | compiz if needed | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: One can use Compiz with Xfce. | Dec 25 17:59 |
| schestowitz | I just need something I can work on | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | xfce fits that bill | Dec 25 18:00 |
| schestowitz | recently I cannot even use many applications in parallel, too slow and too laggy | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | it lacks the unnecessary fluff of other DEs | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | and has a more sane release cycle | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: MATE fluffiness? :) | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | mate is odl | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | *old | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | old tech | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | a stopgap | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | same reason I don't use Trinity | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: That's some logic. | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | MATE supports Gtk2 and Gtk3, a matter of choice. | Dec 25 18:01 |
| schestowitz | pidgin now takes about 10 secs to start up | Dec 25 18:01 |
| schestowitz | vlc sometimes more | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: While Xfce is stopgapping on Gtk2, right? %) | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XFaCE | nope | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XFaCE | they already are transitioning to gtk3 | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | something here is terrible broken and I'm not sure if it's kde or systemd, but I know kde embraces systemd | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: So what's so old-techy in MATE? | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | Maybe kf5 could be sane if it didn't have to deal with this underlying overhaul | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XRevan86 | I understand Trinity but MATE… ? | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | when I adopted kf5 it didn't even properly deal with notifications and event sounds | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | df | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | oops | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Errors were encountered while processing: | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | /var/cache/apt/archives/account-plugin-google_0.12+15.10.20150723-0ubuntu1_all.deb | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | meh | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | wouldn't be so amusing if my system stopped booting on xmas day | Dec 25 18:04 |
| schestowitz | Setting up gir1.2-ibus-1.0:i386 (1.5.10-1ubuntu1) ... | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | ? | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | looks like "girl" | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | gtk-ir-1? | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: gir == gobject introspection repostory | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | repository | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | GObject universal bindings. | Dec 25 18:06 |
| XRevan86 | One gir1.2-ibus-1.0 makes ibus development stuff available for all gobject introspection supported languages like python, lua, perl. | Dec 25 18:07 |
| schestowitz | thanks, this isn't a good afternoon so far, kde won't let me work in peace | Dec 25 18:07 |
| schestowitz | been 8 months, not seeing improvement that merits optimism | Dec 25 18:08 |
| schestowitz | Processing triggers for systemd (225-1ubuntu9) ... | Dec 25 18:08 |
| schestowitz | grr | Dec 25 18:08 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Welcome to Ubuntu. | Dec 25 18:09 |
| schestowitz | brb, trying something... | Dec 25 18:09 |
| XRevan86 | 15.04 | Dec 25 18:09 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 19:05:37 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/desktop/fc1-upgraded-desktop-2010.png | Dec 25 19:05 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: KDE 3 is in the social network as well | Dec 25 19:05 |
| sebsebseb | that's a good film :) | Dec 25 19:06 |
| cubexyz | I'm still learning new things about FC1 12 years later | Dec 25 19:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh such as? | Dec 25 19:07 |
| cubexyz | shellshock... had to switch to ash for the server instead of bash to run certain scripts | Dec 25 19:08 |
| cubexyz | but I also patched bash 2.04 | Dec 25 19:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh the security issue you mean? | Dec 25 19:08 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 19:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah there's a computer that's still vunverble to that, that I should upgrade really, but haven't yet | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | a distro re install later version | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: forgot both passwords so, root and user account | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | and I coudn't remember how to do it from a LIve CD re setting | Dec 25 19:09 |
| cubexyz | so I have special builds for rtorrent and git | Dec 25 19:09 |
| cubexyz | but there's no big problem adding stuff | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | Fc1 had the longest running X session out of any OS | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | oh? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | tested for over 10 years in total | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | lasted you mean? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | I think it had the least memory leaks | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | without a re boot | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | ? | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | that's right | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah your a proper nerd/geek you, I am not :d | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | not 10 years though... more like 420+ days (so far) | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | long time still | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | utility power was the problem, not X | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | oh you had a power cut you mean heh? | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | the UPS is only good for 40 mins | Dec 25 19:12 |
| cubexyz | so if I have a power failure longer than that it shutdowns | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | the UPS? | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | US Post Service :d | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | ,but no your eaning something else hmm | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | meaning | Dec 25 19:12 |
| cubexyz | Uninterruptable Power Supply | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 19:12 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: First of all I suggest that you always include the version number when you write or think "KDE". Otherwise you are buying into the idea that whatever the plasma saboteurs are currently putting out is the "real" KDE. It isn't. I'm still using KDE3.5.10 and it's fast and runs KDE4 apps. | Dec 25 19:12 |
| cubexyz | I also made other changes to the case to improve reliability | Dec 25 19:13 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: KDE 3.5.10 in what? | Dec 25 19:13 |
| msb__ | Suse Linux 11.4 | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: hmm so your running old stuff to not just cubexyz | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | but not as old as him heh | Dec 25 19:14 |
| cubexyz | I run Unix v5, that's pretty old | Dec 25 19:14 |
| XRevan86 | It seems like only I am using new stuff around %). | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: I am | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: as well | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | anyway all KDE's are old now, unless it's KDE 5 :D | Dec 25 19:15 |
| sebsebseb | heh | Dec 25 19:15 |
| schestowitz | gnome3 is a TOY | Dec 25 19:16 |
| schestowitz | WTF? | Dec 25 19:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/computer-longevity.txt | Dec 25 19:16 |
| schestowitz | no virtual desktops even? | Dec 25 19:16 |
| cubexyz | check out the section on hard drives :) | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: is that your opinion? sounds like soething people put in articles | Dec 25 19:16 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Virtual desktops are in the "menu" | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: I think there are virtual desktops just a little tricky to find maybe, I am not on GNOME 3 Shell right now | Dec 25 19:16 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 19:16 |
| schestowitz | let me see... | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: it's also a version behind upstream in Ubuntu | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mageia 6 is actsaully going to have the latest upstream GNOME when it's released in like end of April or May, :) | Dec 25 19:17 |
| cubexyz | don't succumb to upgradeotoesis :) | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | Fedora is apparnatly going Wayland soon | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | full wayland | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | not just the log in screen | Dec 25 19:17 |
| XRevan86 | http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GNOME-Shell-3.10.png | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | apaprnatly they already use Wayland for the log in screen | Dec 25 19:18 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what do you mean? | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | mindless upgrading | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | upgrading for no reason | Dec 25 19:18 |
| schestowitz | windows with just one button, the close button | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nah things need to go forward | Dec 25 19:18 |
| schestowitz | it's like Linux 1.0 | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: if we are talking Ubbuntu though, well then sure t he last few releases have been just mindless upgrades really | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, have you ever talked to a cobbler? | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: releases because they had to have a release | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | some of them use machines from the 1920s | Dec 25 19:19 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: How do you know q4os doesn't use systemd? I can't find a decent description of it, it's based on debian, and there's nobody in #q4os. | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what's a cobbler? | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | ugh.. ok :) | Dec 25 19:19 |
| schestowitz | no pager... | Dec 25 19:19 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Even if it does, one can always make it not. | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | first of all, I use q4os so I know 100% it doesn't use systemd | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | secondly a cobbler is a person who makes shoes :) | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | thirdly cubexyz is a old guy, who uses old tech :d | Dec 25 19:20 |
| cubexyz | I'm not that old :) | Dec 25 19:20 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: how old are you? | Dec 25 19:20 |
| cubexyz | I turned 50 this year | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | yep your getting old now heh | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | starting to | Dec 25 19:21 |
| msb__ | I turned 70. | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: are you really 70? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | [19:19] <sebsebseb> schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | gnome 3.0 | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| msb__ | I take a lot of vitamins and hope. | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | there's a flavour they call "flashback" | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME Shell is modern look :) same for Unity really | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | but it feels like ubuntu in 2004 | Dec 25 19:22 |
| schestowitz | this one is even more primitive, lots of stuff missing | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME 3 doesnt' feel like Ubuntu in 2004, or you mean flashback? | Dec 25 19:22 |
| cubexyz | msb knows LINC-8 :))) | Dec 25 19:22 |
| schestowitz | I just need some usable env in which to run my software | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Mate | Dec 25 19:22 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Not flavour, GNOME Flashback is GNOME + gnome-panel, metacity, etc. | Dec 25 19:22 |
| msb__ | Hell, I worked on a LINC. | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Fedora Core 1 maybe if cubexyz sets up for you :d | Dec 25 19:23 |
| XRevan86 | although that depends on what you define as flavour :) | Dec 25 19:23 |
| schestowitz | I can't stop klipper here | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, don't worry, I own some newer technology | Dec 25 19:23 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: heh such as? | Dec 25 19:23 |
| schestowitz | a deal breaker, iirc glipper uses mono | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | I even use LCDs sometimes :) | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | I own a chromebook, that was 2015 technology | Dec 25 19:24 |
| cubexyz | it's hard to be a one-man distro maintainer | Dec 25 19:25 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ok ,but Chrome has such a basic interface etc | Dec 25 19:25 |
| cubexyz | CRTs can last a long time. Not sure how long my LCDs will last | Dec 25 19:25 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: LCDs can last a long time as well. | Dec 25 19:27 |
| cubexyz | I know a guy who drives a 1960s truck still | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: was trying to install trinity, which I doubted would be in the repo | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | no tirinity-desktop | Dec 25 19:27 |
| cubexyz | it's like driving in a museum :) | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | and trinity, as it turned out, is some obscure CLI program | Dec 25 19:27 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Yeah, Trinity is not in repos. | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | i wouldn't expect it to | Dec 25 19:28 |
| XRevan86 | and MATE is | Dec 25 19:28 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: See? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I ; | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | what alternative is there to plasma that's good a lot of features? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I put earlier, Trinity isn't in any of the commonly known distors | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | is there a plasma-less KDE? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: razorqt maybee? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | openbox? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, did you see my special windows 10 pic? | Dec 25 19:29 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nope | Dec 25 19:29 |
| schestowitz | ah, yes, razorqt, haven't heard of it in a while | Dec 25 19:29 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: trinity is just a fork of KDE3.5.10 You get it from here: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 25 19:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ ) | Dec 25 19:29 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Well, because razor-qt was superseded by LXQt. | Dec 25 19:29 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/shouldnt-have-used-windows-10.jpg | Dec 25 19:29 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah razor-qt is repalced by LXQT | Dec 25 19:29 |
| XRevan86 | where last "t" is lower-case :) | Dec 25 19:30 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 19:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- ( status 404 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png ) | Dec 25 19:30 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: schestowitz XRevan86 msb__ Windows 10's best feauture seriously, guess what it is :) | Dec 25 19:30 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 19:30 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Bugs to graw people to GNU/Linux? | Dec 25 19:30 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: heh maybe, but no that's the wrong answer :) | Dec 25 19:31 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I recommend that you backup and check all of your data. Then choose a distro from here: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page | Dec 25 19:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 25 19:31 | |
| XRevan86 | * http://maxhost.org/other/hey-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 19:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: dunno, there are so many great features there | Dec 25 19:31 |
| scientes | schestowitz, Merry Christmas | Dec 25 19:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: malware/botnet functionality, keylogger, backdoor for software uninstallation, spying on your kids | Dec 25 19:31 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Black panel? | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | malware-like "upgrade" pushing from earlier versions | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: MinceR cubexyz XRevan86 schestowitz why do some people have such a issue with SystemD I don't really understand, and I don't really care what a distro uses to boot itself up with, as long as it works and is fast enough :) | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | ads in start menu | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yep maybe, but wrong answer again :d | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: unfortunately cancerd is not just an init system | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: it's an operating system | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | cancerd ??? what's that | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | without a good service manager, init system, or anything | Dec 25 19:32 |
| cubexyz | systemd is anti-unix | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | same as systemd | Dec 25 19:32 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: Because it's probably systemd that's messing up your computer. Choose a non-systemd distro that has a trinity distribution for it. | Dec 25 19:32 |
| cubexyz | that's the reason I don't like systemd | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: well it gets rid of the old init thing yes | Dec 25 19:33 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but who needs that really these days? | Dec 25 19:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: It's objectively not. | Dec 25 19:33 |
| cubexyz | people should be able to use whatever init system they want | Dec 25 19:33 |
| cubexyz | not forced into systemd | Dec 25 19:33 |
| sebsebseb | who cares as long as it boots and works as I put earlier basically :) | Dec 25 19:33 |
| msb__ | XRevan86: what is not? | Dec 25 19:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: schestowitz issues are not systemd-related. | Dec 25 19:33 |
| MinceR | cancerd and its dependents are designed to take away the users' freedom to choose their init system | Dec 25 19:33 |
| MinceR | (and for many other things too) | Dec 25 19:34 |
| sebsebseb | what's cancerd? or is that a joke? | Dec 25 19:34 |
| msb__ | sebsebseb: systemd is not working for schestowitz. | Dec 25 19:34 |
| sebsebseb | cancer? | Dec 25 19:34 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 19:34 | |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 19:54:08 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 25 19:54 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 25 19:54 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 25 19:54 | |
| cubexyz | I spent years reconfiguring stuff in vector so I'm reluctant to move to a newer distro so I did what I usually do... | Dec 25 19:54 |
| cubexyz | set up a different computer to try a new distro | Dec 25 19:54 |
| schestowitz_log | back on plasma | Dec 25 19:54 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: I found out that mplayer can play videos and TV in the Ctrl-Alt-Fn text consoles. It uses fbdev. | Dec 25 19:55 |
| -NickServ-schestowitz!~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com has just authenticated as you (schestowitz) | Dec 25 19:56 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:56 | |
| MinceR | technically, X runs on such a console too :> | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | just not in text mode | Dec 25 19:56 |
| schestowitz_log | my qt settings got overridden | Dec 25 19:56 |
| schestowitz_log | so even plasma got ugly | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | (though i'm told linux tends to use fake text mode anyway) | Dec 25 19:56 |
| cubexyz | it's not really a text console though... it's just a separate video mode | Dec 25 19:56 |
| cubexyz | MDA was true text | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | vga could do it too | Dec 25 19:57 |
| schestowitz | I think I'm stuck, it's the base that's broken, every DE/WM started with little ram left free | Dec 25 19:57 |
| cubexyz | yes, I think FreeDOS and MSDOS could use that | Dec 25 19:57 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: did you try KDE 5 in something? | Dec 25 19:57 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: But it's not X. That's what surprised me. X was frozen up at the time. | Dec 25 19:58 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it's not X but it's still a video mode | Dec 25 19:58 |
| MinceR | well, there was also SVGALib | Dec 25 19:58 |
| MinceR | for example | Dec 25 19:58 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: msb__ cubexyz schestowitz Oh yeah what do you all think of Blackberry? | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | you can shutdown X completely and still use radeonfb or something like that | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | not much | Dec 25 19:59 |
| msb__ | It said it was using fbdev. | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | i guess if they embrace android, they might still have a chance to survive | Dec 25 19:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yes they are now it seems | Dec 25 19:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a new phone, that has Android on it now with some blackberry changes, it's expensive | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | i'm weaned off physical phone keyboards though | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it uses whatever framebuffer your video card supports | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | it can be a bunch of different ones | Dec 25 20:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why don't you like pshhycall phone keyboards? | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | note ii virtual keyboard > n97 physical keyboard | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | they tend to come with non-monoblock form factors | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | which makes them easy to drop and difficult to cover with a case | Dec 25 20:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I kind of was thinking of buying a cheap blackberry phone maybe, but only since I haven't really done anything with there OS, yes I know it's a bit of a failure and such | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | they also usually skimp on number keys | Dec 25 20:00 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 20:09:35 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 25 20:09 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 25 20:09 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 25 20:09 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but companeis want to sell devices that break after a while, so peole get new devices | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I crowd funded the Remix Mini this year | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which is basically a little box, stick in a TV or monitor, and you got a Android PC :) | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | with there customised OS based on Android | Dec 25 20:10 |
| cubexyz | it's not that I expect devices to last forever, I merely expect to be able to get parts and repair stuff | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | one of the perks was tto get the tablet from the pervious year to, so I did that | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | that's a nice Chiense tablet it seems | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | bigger than the ipad air to | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | screen wise | Dec 25 20:10 |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:10 | |
| cubexyz | also I need a REAL KEYBOARD | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | looks like the Microsoft Surface since it's got a attachable keyboard and such, but no this is Andoid | Dec 25 20:11 |
| cubexyz | not some membrane thing | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes it comes with there keyboard | Dec 25 20:11 |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest54378 | Dec 25 20:11 | |
| MinceR | "android PC", eh? when will it run X directly on the console? | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but using a ot2 device you can put in your own usb mouse keyboard, and external hard disks and so on even | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: o2g device above | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | comes with a good amount of storage space to internal the tablet, | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | was nice to acstaully receive something I havev crowd funded since last December :) | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | since I had issues with one to another tablet, since I was stupid enough to say to someone that I was going to possibly get the | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | patron perk | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | so he startd offering me, that at a discount, but.... | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes the Remix OS tablet can in many ways replace a desktkop PC, not completly of course though | Dec 25 20:13 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: and the Remix Mini is like having a Android PC a small thing | Dec 25 20:13 |
| sebsebseb | with there cusotmied OS based on Android started by three former Google employees | Dec 25 20:13 |
| cubexyz | remix looks a bit expensive | Dec 25 20:14 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah so some review said, but it's interesting what I got :) | Dec 25 20:14 |
| cubexyz | is that touch screen? | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | of cours it's touch screen it's a tablet, but if you got a o2g device that you plug into it | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | you can then use, a real USB mouse and keyboard, and other USB devices such as external hard disk even | Dec 25 20:15 |
| msb__ | I love some of Cher's old songs -- Dark Lady, Gypsies Tramps and Thieves, Half-Breed, Walking to Memphis. | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | I got one for my Meizu Phone :) | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | Ubuntu PHone | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | it's nice being able to use a real keyboard and mouse on that :) | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | no that's not hte convergence that's next year probably, when won't need a o2g device anymore | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | just connect to a montior and keyboard and mouse, and it turns into a desktop PC basically | Dec 25 20:16 |
| *sebsebseb waits for the bq convergence phone | Dec 25 20:16 | |
| sebsebseb | Firefox OS has had it | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | that's gone bye bye | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | as a phone OS | Dec 25 20:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/amigados-1.0.gif | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mozilla gave up, tehy should have targeted not just africa really with that to begin with I think. Jolla are sadly having compay issues, issues with an invester so not really sure what's going to hapepn there | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | so it seems the best bet at having a Linux based phone, that's not Android, at possily getting a bit more out there is yes Ubuntu Touch Phones | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | for now | Dec 25 20:18 |
| cubexyz | back in 1985 that was futuristic :) | Dec 25 20:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: your image yeah I guess so, now it looks classic | Dec 25 20:18 |
| cubexyz | just look at all that ram :) | Dec 25 20:19 |
| sebsebseb | where? | Dec 25 20:19 |
| sebsebseb | in the image? | Dec 25 20:19 |
| cubexyz | at the top | Dec 25 20:19 |
| cubexyz | 318144 free | Dec 25 20:19 |
| sebsebseb | oh | Dec 25 20:20 |
| cubexyz | well it was 30 years ago | Dec 25 20:20 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so you think a pshyicall keyboard, makes a phone to easy to drop? | Dec 25 20:23 |
| *Guest54378 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 20:24 | |
| cubexyz | maybe if I could get replacement parts for a tablet and be actually able to take it apart and reassemble it... | Dec 25 20:26 |
| cubexyz | otherwise it seems like a bad idea | Dec 25 20:27 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which Remix tablet? or tabets in general? | Dec 25 20:27 |
| cubexyz | in general | Dec 25 20:27 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: you can take apart an ipad and so on if you know what your doing | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: but then you have to put in unoffical parts or whatever | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | it's not like a desktop I mean | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | where it's like set up in a way to be opended up if need be | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz can buy some offical parts | Dec 25 20:30 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: MinceR but yeah Apple makes an ipad be seen as a throw away device or replacement if hardware issues | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | by Zaurus still works, that's 2002 era | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | don't use it much though | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | s/by/my/ | Dec 25 20:31 |
| msb__ | I thought you were swearing by the god Zaurus | Dec 25 20:32 |
| cubexyz | didn't know there was one :) | Dec 25 20:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: a non-monoblock phone is easy to drop | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | (slide, clamshell, whatever) | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | i've dropped all my non-monoblock phones and i've never dropped my monoblock phones | Dec 25 20:33 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: what do you mean by mnoblock? | Dec 25 20:33 |
| cubexyz | well there's always smart watches | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | no major moving parts | Dec 25 20:34 |
| MinceR | one unit | Dec 25 20:34 |
| MinceR | no hinge, no slide, no flip, no clamshell | Dec 25 20:34 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so a phone with a pshyicall keyboard is a monoblock phone or isn't? | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | could be either | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | but monoblock phones with full keyboard are rare | Dec 25 20:35 |
| cubexyz | clay tablets are durable :) | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | blackberry is most notable for those | Dec 25 20:35 |
| cubexyz | also monoblock | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | nokia had a few | Dec 25 20:35 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: ok so a blackberry phone with a pshy8icall keyboard, more likely to drop that? | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | htc had a lot of slider (non-monoblock) phones with full keyboard | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: no, an ordinary blackberry phone, where the keyboard is under the display, i wouldn't be likely to drop that | Dec 25 20:36 |
| MinceR | but if i have to slide it out (like on the Priv), it's more likely | Dec 25 20:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: the priv is to expensive, and I am not interested if it's Andorid with there changes | Dec 25 20:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I already got a customised actusal proper Android OS, yes Remix OS see earlier | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | if I am buying blackberry anything | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | its' for there OS | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | but it seems meant to have a pshyicall keyboard really for the like blackberry expericne or sort of, but on the leap would be ok without to hmm | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: can't run Blackberry OS on a Nexus that easilly I guess? or maybe can, but I don't have one of those anyway | Dec 25 20:38 |
| MinceR | if i were to buy a phone now, i'd buy an LG V10 | Dec 25 20:38 |
| *sebsebseb likes trying differnet OS's | Dec 25 20:38 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well I been using my Meizu MX 4 Ubuntu Phone as my phone for a few months now | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | since having that | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | sadly I actsually lost my BQ phone back in July :( | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | after travelling | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | on the house drive ah! | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | at like 5am | Dec 25 20:39 |
| *trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:39 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I have a Jolla phone to, and cheap Firefxo OS | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | a old Andorid old nokia around, not using htose | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | the world has changed OS's are more so about mobile now to, that's phones and tablets | Dec 25 20:40 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:40 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 20:40 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/680488392719613952 | Dec 25 20:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: @schestowitz I went with Awesome WM. Tiling is damn good | Dec 25 20:44 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/680489861518852101 | Dec 25 20:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I use #openbox with LXDE @schestowitz Leafpad text editor and PCManFM file manager. Useful stuff. Mix and match Gnome and KDE apps with that | Dec 25 20:48 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 21:12 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest67910 | Dec 25 21:13 | |
| schestowitz | merry xmas, Guest67910/ daemonfc | Dec 25 21:24 |
| *scientes has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 21:34 | |
| msb__ | On August 31, 1994, just a few weeks after the Cranberries' song Zombie was released, the IRA declared a ceasefire after 25 years of conflict, leading some critics of The Cranberries to wonder if the IRA was willing to call a truce to make sure the group didn't release any more songs about them. | Dec 25 21:46 |
| msb__ | The power of music! | Dec 25 21:46 |
| schestowitz | so far openbox works ok for me | Dec 25 21:52 |
| schestowitz | I don't need panels and other widgets | Dec 25 21:52 |
| schestowitz | unnecessary bloat when I use xbindkeys | Dec 25 21:52 |
| msb__ | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ejga4kJUts | Dec 25 21:58 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.youtube.com | The Cranberries - Zombie - YouTube | Dec 25 21:58 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 25 22:01 | |
| *trn has quit (Quit: quit) | Dec 25 22:10 | |
| *trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:14 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 22:23 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:24 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 22:24 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:24 | |
| schestowitz | http://community.linuxmint.com/software/view/trinity | Dec 25 22:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-community.linuxmint.com | trinity - Linux Mint Community | Dec 25 22:41 | |
| schestowitz | "As 'fuzz testing' suggests, trinity calls syscalls at random, with random arguments. where trinity differs is that the arguments it passes are not purely random." | Dec 25 22:41 |
| schestowitz | Oh, crap, I ran that | Dec 25 22:41 |
| schestowitz | And that's why I now have lots of crap files in my homedir | Dec 25 22:42 |
| *tessier has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 25 22:53 | |
| *tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 22:54 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 25 22:54 | |
| msb__ | Create a junk directory, move all the crap files into it. Go into that dir and make sure only junk files are in there. Then delete them from inside that directory. | Dec 25 23:04 |
| msb__ | I will seek a patent for that safe-delete method from the EPO. | Dec 25 23:05 |
| schestowitz | OK, cleaned it up | Dec 25 23:14 |
| schestowitz | deleted by inode | Dec 25 23:15 |
| schestowitz | what a mess | Dec 25 23:15 |
| schestowitz | never ran the program called trinity | Dec 25 23:15 |
| schestowitz | or risk leaving a mess on your system | Dec 25 23:15 |
| cubexyz | could be worse | Dec 25 23:19 |
| cubexyz | you could have a windows 10 laptop :) | Dec 25 23:19 |
| schestowitz | heh | Dec 25 23:20 |
| schestowitz | Seen one | Dec 25 23:20 |
| schestowitz | wife's cousin | Dec 25 23:20 |
| schestowitz | didn't even touch or look at it | Dec 25 23:20 |
| schestowitz | I just said, put linux on it, then I'd have a look | Dec 25 23:21 |
| *Guest67910 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 25 23:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://wiki.mozilla.org/Thunderbird:Testing:Memory_Usage_Problems | Dec 25 23:34 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-wiki.mozilla.org | Thunderbird:Testing:Memory Usage Problems - MozillaWiki | Dec 25 23:34 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | If Thunderbird memory usage is more than expected by hundreds of megabytes (MB), then perhaps one or more folders (internally a database) are not being closed, or some other bug. Please : | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | Get a diagnostic log of Thunderbird activity with MSGDB:5,timestamp using logging instructions. | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | File a bug, then edit the new bug and attach the zipped log file using "Add an attachment". | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | I think I have had this issue for 2 years | Dec 25 23:34 |
| schestowitz | after a hard drive failure | Dec 25 23:34 |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 23:37 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest10666 | Dec 25 23:37 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I don't understand what you're saying about trinity. "Trinity" is the name of a desktop system, a fork of KDE3. Are you saying that there's an executable program called "trinity" that comes with the trinity distribution? Do the instructions tell you to execute it? | Dec 25 23:37 |
| cubexyz | there's no real trinity distro | Dec 25 23:38 |
| cubexyz | there is a distro that comes with trinity | Dec 25 23:38 |
| cubexyz | the rest of them are sort of tacked on | Dec 25 23:38 |
| cubexyz | there's q4os and Exe GNU/Linux that come with trinity built-in | Dec 25 23:40 |
| cubexyz | both are debian based | Dec 25 23:40 |
| msb__ | Here are the instructions on the Trinity website for installing it (the latest version) into various distros: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.2/ | Dec 25 23:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/releases/R14.0.2/ ) | Dec 25 23:42 | |
| msb__ | When I said "trinity distribution" I didn't mean a Linux distro, just the trinity files that are suitable for some set of Linux distros. | Dec 25 23:43 |
| cubexyz | ah ok | Dec 25 23:43 |
| msb__ | Many people are using Trinity DE successfully. It's not clear why Roy is having a problem, | Dec 25 23:46 |
| MinceR | i think that was an unrelated tool, called "trinity" | Dec 25 23:48 |
| cubexyz | yes there's a system call fuzzer called trinity | Dec 25 23:51 |
| *Guest10666 has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 25 23:53 | |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: do you know it | Dec 26 00:06 |
| schestowitz | ? | Dec 26 00:06 |
| schestowitz | I hope it didn't do any damage that I'm still unable to see | Dec 26 00:06 |
| schestowitz | I looked at the log | Dec 26 00:06 |
| schestowitz | it visibly left some oddly named files and dirs | Dec 26 00:07 |
| schestowitz | which I think I managed to remove completelu | Dec 26 00:07 |
| schestowitz | http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2007/nov/01/blogging.interviews | Dec 26 00:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.theguardian.com | Interview: Mike Masnick, Techdirt's founder | Technology | The Guardian [ http://ur1.ca/ocz1w ] | Dec 26 00:26 | |
| schestowitz | Didn't know he knew Masnick going this long | Dec 26 00:26 |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 00:41 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 26 00:44 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 00:45 | |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 00:52 | |
| *liberty_box (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 01:31 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: The description of the EVIL "trinity" says: "I recommend not running it on machines containing data you care about. It's entirely plausible that trinity could start calling unlink() on files it randomly finds. You might also want to make sure that there are no nfs or similar filesystems mounted for the same reason." | Dec 26 02:01 |
| msb__ | The EVIL TRINITY is here: http://codemonkey.org.uk/projects/trinity/ | Dec 26 02:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-codemonkey.org.uk | Trinity : A Linux system call fuzzer. [ http://ur1.ca/ocz5c ] | Dec 26 02:04 | |
| msb__ | The GOOD TRINITY is here: http://trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 26 02:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-trinitydesktop.org | Trinity Desktop Environment | Dec 26 02:05 | |
| MinceR | i don't see how security testing is "EVIL" | Dec 26 02:44 |
| MinceR | i do wonder how it reacts to being run with --help or --version, though | Dec 26 02:45 |
| cubexyz | Fuzzer would have been a better name :) | Dec 26 02:45 |
| MinceR | there are many other fuzzers | Dec 26 02:51 |
| cubexyz | ok, call it trinity-fuzzer then | Dec 26 02:53 |
| cubexyz | the term trinity on it's own is hopelessly ambiguous | Dec 26 02:54 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 26 02:54 |
| msb__ | Security testing per se isn't evil, but repurposing a popular software name to a program that runs random system commands and can delete files, activate the self-destruct system, launch the ICBMs, etc -- that is goddamn stupid. | Dec 26 03:10 |
| cubexyz | actually wasn't trinity also a nuclear test? :) | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | how do you know they repurposed the name from TDE? | Dec 26 03:11 |
| cubexyz | probably not | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | they may have used the name first | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | they may have been unaware of TDE for other reasons | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | we also have two chromiums | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | there are much earlier antecedents | Dec 26 03:12 |
| MinceR | and two gentoos | Dec 26 03:12 |
| MinceR | that too | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | the trinity nuclear test was 1945 | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | two software chromiums? | Dec 26 03:14 |
| cubexyz | chromium OS, chromium web browser | Dec 26 03:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are threre chromiums in software. http://www.desura.com/games/chromium-bsu everyone forgets about chromium-bsu the game. | Dec 26 03:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.desura.com | Chromium B.S.U. Windows, Mac, Linux game | Desura | Dec 26 03:20 | |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 26 03:21 |
| MinceR | there's also chromium BSU, a game | Dec 26 03:21 |
| MinceR | ah, oiaohm beat me to it | Dec 26 03:21 |
| cubexyz | there's also a chromium OpenGL implemention :) | Dec 26 03:21 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 03:22 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 03:23 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 03:24 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest19231 | Dec 26 03:25 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: The trinity fusser and the trinity desktop both come into existance in 2010. | Dec 26 03:25 |
| cubexyz | actually I did forget about Chromium the game but I did play it in the FC1 era | Dec 26 03:26 |
| cubexyz | is it still updated? | Dec 26 03:27 |
| MinceR | dunno | Dec 26 03:28 |
| MinceR | as far as shoot-em-ups go, i prefer Tyrian | Dec 26 03:28 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: last source update to Chromium B.S.U was 2013. But compared to the hybernation of supertux cart there still might be new patches. | Dec 26 03:29 |
| msb__ | I think Roy was in a hurry and didn't take time to read the description of the program he was running. Old advice from Middle East or Asia regarding carpets: "Measure six times, cut once." | Dec 26 03:30 |
| MinceR | measure once, cut once. but make a backup first. | Dec 26 03:31 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what the carpet is some carpets you never cut but work out how to carefully fold. | Dec 26 03:32 |
| MinceR | "measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe" | Dec 26 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yep chalk and axe the wall to make space for the Persian carpet. Because no way are you cutting the Persian carpet. | Dec 26 03:36 |
| MinceR | :D | Dec 26 03:37 |
| MinceR | would it unravel if i did? | Dec 26 03:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no you would unbalance the design so cutting it value to 1 percent or less of it starting value. | Dec 26 03:38 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 03:38 |
| oiaohm | Remember some of the collect-able Persian carpets are 100+ years old. And they are only worth as much as what they are because they are over 100 years old. Not something you can just go and speed money and get another one made as replacement. | Dec 26 03:39 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nola.com/homegarden/index.ssf/2013/06/this_rug_sold_for_how_much_per.html The most expensive one 33 millions dollars. Yes it more than possible that the rebuilding the building from scratch to fit the persian carpet is cheaper than cutting it. | Dec 26 03:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nola.com | This rug sold for how much? Persian carpet brings in record price | NOLA.com [ http://ur1.ca/ocz8n ] | Dec 26 03:42 | |
| oiaohm | Always know the value of what you are considering cutting as sometimes it correct to destroy everything else instead. | Dec 26 03:43 |
| MinceR | i'd rather just use carpet with a much simpler (or no) pattern | Dec 26 03:44 |
| MinceR | i'm guessing they don't walk on that carpet | Dec 26 03:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the most expensive Persian Carpet I know that is walked on is about 3 million. | Dec 26 03:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the carpet is not going to get age marks if it not used. | Dec 26 03:46 |
| MinceR | if it's used, it will wear away | Dec 26 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Well made Persian Carpets take about 120 years of wear until they have to be taken out of use. | Dec 26 03:48 |
| oiaohm | 3 million is still young by Persian Carpet standards about 80 years old. | Dec 26 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Of course strictly no drinks or shoes or smokes no where near it. Walking on it with bare feet is fine. | Dec 26 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically after a particular age Persian Carpets become wall decorations. Now putting items designed for floors on walls is still one hell of a challenge. | Dec 26 03:52 |
| *sebsebseb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 26 03:52 | |
| MinceR | they can't take the strain? | Dec 26 03:57 |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 04:09 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 26 04:11 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you think about it 100 years+ of wear then you decide to put them on wall for display. Yes there can be weak points. | Dec 26 04:18 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 04:20 |
| MinceR | so, do they glue them to a backing or what? | Dec 26 04:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gluing not the way. http://www.azerbaijanrugs.com/care-guide/rug_proper_wall_display.htm The correct way is a pure pain. Yes hand sew the Persian Carpet to backing material. Why hand is to damage the min number of fibers in the process. | Dec 26 04:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.azerbaijanrugs.com | Proper Wall Display of Oriental Rugs [ http://ur1.ca/oczai ] | Dec 26 04:50 | |
| MinceR | that was my other guess | Dec 26 04:51 |
| MinceR | but then i figured that would show more and hold at fewer points :) | Dec 26 04:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note the spaceing. Each stitch is over a foot apart in the center of carpet. | Dec 26 04:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: " Make one stitch approximately every 1 to 2 feet vertically across open areas in the middle of the rug, to provide additional support." That is why I included link. | Dec 26 04:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the stitch spacing even on a weaken rug is still not that close on each other. | Dec 26 04:54 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 04:55 |
| oiaohm | Of course color selection of stitch is also a factor for how bad it shows. | Dec 26 04:56 |
| oiaohm | As I said its a pure pain putting those rugs on display. Yes behind the backing can end up looking a horible mess of threads of different colors at times. | Dec 26 04:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically this is a job you cannot give to a sewing machine and get good results. | Dec 26 05:04 |
| *Guest19231 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 05:34 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 06:03 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest57382 | Dec 26 06:04 | |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 26 06:34 | |
| *Guest57382 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 26 08:31 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 09:03 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 09:04 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 26 09:04 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 09:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6929759 | Dec 26 09:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Foolishly enough, in the midst of tinkering, I ran fuzz tests on my desktop/production system, made a huge mess of files, sockets, dirs | Dec 26 09:05 | |
| schestowitz | "I’ll have to remember to not do that." | Dec 26 09:05 |
| *liberty_box_ (~liberty@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 26 09:20 | |
| schestowitz | > https://medium.com/@networksecurity/oleoutlook-bypass-almost-every-corporate-security-control-with-a-point-n-click-gui-37f4cbc107d0 | Dec 26 10:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-medium.com | #OLEOutlook - bypass almost every Corporate security control with a point’n’click GUI — Medium [ http://ur1.ca/oczjv ] | Dec 26 10:03 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | > another one from M$, in addition to their broken authentication, to | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | > explain why the media focus on GRUB | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | "A bit of the AC communiqué is cited in the Article in German | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | translation. I translated it back in English, without attempting to see | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | how it read like originally. I didn't bother looking up the original. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | Feel free to insert the original passage if you find it. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | Schöne Bescherung, | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | xxx | Dec 26 10:41 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: stupid enough the GRUB flaw was insanely bad. Since the breach allowed undoing a few encrypted setups. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | needs physical access | Dec 26 10:44 |
| schestowitz | and not many distros affected | Dec 26 10:44 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: http://linuxgizmos.com/u-s-military-uav-control-systems-switch-to-linux/ You are not thinking about the level of system breached. | Dec 26 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-linuxgizmos.com | U.S. military UAVs migrate to Linux · LinuxGizmos.com [ http://ur1.ca/h9rqs ] | Dec 26 10:46 | |
| oiaohm | Breaching corporate secuirty is not like breaching a drone control terminal with access to drones with real arms. | Dec 26 10:46 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: so yes there are reasons to be worried about the grub issue. | Dec 26 10:47 |
| oiaohm | The lack of auditing of core parts of Linux that are used in weapon control systems is kinda serous. | Dec 26 10:48 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/status/680708062185918464 | Dec 26 11:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FOSSpatents: @schestowitz thx | Dec 26 11:14 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/greekemmy/status/680721164390543360 | Dec 26 12:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@greekemmy: @schestowitz @AssangeCase spot on! | Dec 26 12:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/680732840238170112 | Dec 26 12:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zoobab: @schestowitz it will be video streamed as well. | Dec 26 12:53 | |
| schestowitz | make static copy for dissemination | Dec 26 12:53 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 13:16 | |
| *Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 13:21 | |
| amarsh04 | after all these years, Frank da Cruz is still supporting C-Kermit | Dec 26 14:45 |
| schestowitz | https://hacked.com/wiki/Dark_Web | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 14:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-hacked.com | Dark Web - Hacked | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| schestowitz | Dark web.png | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | Dark web is a term used to refer to thousands of web sites and communities which utilize the public Internet but are not accessible without specific software configurations, such as Tor and i2p. Tor and i2p are respectively their own darknets. Dark web is often confused with deep web, which is a term used to reference the millions of web pages which cannot be indexed by search engines. The reasons are many, but chief among them is that a | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | password is required to access much of the Internet. For this reason, Facebook is actually considered part of the deep web, as well as any forum which requires a username and password to login. Therefore, despite dark web being a significant portion of the deep web, for the sake of understanding it is best to see them as separate ideas. | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680753940636516352 | Dec 26 14:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz blocking facebook almost sounds like a true workers paradise :). But for freedom it must be users choice to not go there... | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ClimateRetweet/status/680759477814038529 | Dec 26 14:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ClimateRetweet: RT "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of are already evident." https://t.co/bNVWhUMxmO | Dec 26 14:53 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #miami "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of #climatechange are already evident." https://t.co/AZPQN9oQav | Dec 26 14:53 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 15:13 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/OuchoSparks/status/680767098776358912 | Dec 26 15:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@OuchoSparks: @schestowitz Isn't the law meant to protect Power? #Useoflaw @blumo0n | Dec 26 15:16 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/680773551784390656 | Dec 26 15:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: House Bill 1494: prohibit gov't agencies acquiring, collecting, retaining personal/social media data w/out warrant https://t.co/grOuZNlq2e | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: New Hampshire Bill Would Ban NSA Activity Called the “Biggest Threat Since the Civil War” https://t.co/nnyNaOkFPG #nh vs domestic #stasi | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blumo0n/status/680775421366022144 | Dec 26 15:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blumo0n: @OuchoSparks @schestowitz It rather depends if one interprets for oligarchs or citizens. | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| *trn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 16:43 | |
| *trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 16:54 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 16:59 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest43319 | Dec 26 16:59 | |
| schestowitz | apple opportunism http://fortune.com/2015/12/22/apple-strong-crypto/ | Dec 26 17:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-fortune.com | Apple's Case for Strong Crypto - Fortune [ http://ur1.ca/oczyl ] | Dec 26 17:29 | |
| schestowitz | and two-faced lies | Dec 26 17:29 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2015/12/23/the-morning-download-google-to-reboot-messaging-platform-amid-fierce-competition-newsletter-draft/ | Dec 26 17:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blogs.wsj.com | The Morning Download: Google to Reboot Messaging Platform Amid Fierce Competition - The CIO Report - WSJ [ http://ur1.ca/oczym ] | Dec 26 17:30 | |
| *prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 17:34 | |
| *XFaCE has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 26 17:35 | |
| *Guest43319 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 17:36 | |
| *prurigro (~prurigro@li365-7.members.linode.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 17:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/6797545497547612184 | Dec 26 17:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 26 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/basenowels/status/679859828152389632 | Dec 26 17:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/680064588130443264 | Dec 26 17:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Snowden: The solution to the Juniper mystery seems to be for @matthew_d_green to apply to work at NSA's CES and @tqbf to go to NSA's NCSC. | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| *prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 17:45 | |
| *XFaCE (~XFaCE@unaffiliated/xface) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 17:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680808946488217600 | Dec 26 18:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @Snowden @schestowitz can one get a fair trial by a jury that likely most have no idea what due process & a free society even looks like? | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/digital_human/status/680809316186730497 | Dec 26 18:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@digital_human: Definitly no https://t.co/6nHsk3BxQt | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "Are terrorists really using encrypted messages to plot attacks?" https://t.co/mLPP2hSSjU evidence says no so far... | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| schestowitz | choosing a nut http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/opinion/charen-does-conservatism-matter-in-republican-nomination-contest/article_6f58f5d9-1622-56b3-bf36-ca023cc76d70.html | Dec 26 18:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.yourhoustonnews.com | Charen: Does conservatism matter in Republican nomination contest? - Your Houston News: Opinion [ http://ur1.ca/od011 ] | Dec 26 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/lisbourne6/status/680832796538081281 | Dec 26 19:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@lisbourne6: @schestowitz @itvnews And yet cuts to flood defences I despair | Dec 26 19:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/LulhAndy/status/680833077191520257 | Dec 26 19:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@LulhAndy: @schestowitz @chrisgerhard if only we hadn't spunked all of that money on bombing the shite out of things in Syria... | Dec 26 19:36 | |
| schestowitz | floods around here.. | Dec 26 19:36 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sk8geek/status/680836428905984000 | Dec 26 19:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sk8geek: Also #Yorkshire https://t.co/vqe8WrUGAj | Dec 26 19:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: 10,000 properties without power across #Lancashire and #Rochdale https://t.co/2Az2YhHK9A a national threat much more potent than terrorism | Dec 26 19:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/680847961492946948 | Dec 26 20:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz @alistapart it's quite interesting about developers "investing countless unpaid hours" interpreting law... Why should they! | Dec 26 20:31 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 21:00 | |
| *liberty_box_ has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 26 23:21 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I'm very sorry about the "fuzzer" business. I had never heard of it before, and now it's in google and mixed in with TDE software in some distro repos. I've sent warnings to both TDE mailing lists and its IRC channel. I've sent a request to the "fuzzer" author to put a big warning on his web page, but so far he has not responded. | Dec 26 23:23 |
| msb__ | ...but even that wouldn't help if someone gets his program from some other place. He should really put a warning in the program himself, which I will suggest if he ever gets back to me. | Dec 26 23:28 |
| schestowitz | I think it's OK | Dec 26 23:32 |
| schestowitz | I managed to delete the dodgy new files | Dec 26 23:32 |
| schestowitz | I just don't know it it silently did some other damage that I'm not seeing just yet | Dec 26 23:32 |
| msb__ | It can delete pre-existing files, and maybe whole directories. | Dec 26 23:33 |
| msb__ | I looked at the domain record for his .uk site in the hopes of finding his phone number, but he hides his identity. | Dec 26 23:34 |
| schestowitz | but how likely is this to happen? That it takes existing files and messed them up? | Dec 26 23:42 |
| schestowitz | I'm not sure yet, but it seems like it makes system calls to create new files and directories | Dec 26 23:43 |
| schestowitz | at random | Dec 26 23:43 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 23:44 |
| schestowitz | So I'd appreciate if we could join our networks and be in contact. I am ready to suggestions you might have to keep all this under a relative safe confidentiality, provided that it is possible. | Dec 26 23:44 |
| schestowitz | Looking forward to your answer, have my | Dec 26 23:44 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 23:44 |
| schestowitz | https://n0where.net/trinity-linux-system-call-fuzzer/ | Dec 26 23:45 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-n0where.net | Trinity: Linux system call fuzzer. [ http://ur1.ca/od0a4 ] | Dec 26 23:45 | |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [0] uname(name=0) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 23:48 |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [1] recvmmsg(fd=6, mmsg=4, vlen=0x800400a3, flags=0xa001a549, timeout=4) = -1 (Bad address) | Dec 26 23:48 |
| schestowitz | [child1:6045] [2] flock(fd=399, cmd=0x84000200) = -1 (Invalid argument) | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | I have some log files | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | it looks like many syscalls did not succeed | Dec 26 23:49 |
| cubexyz | what is the point of the fuzzer? | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | I searched for unlink | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | and all these requests got rejected | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | I still check | Dec 26 23:49 |
| schestowitz | yeah, every unlink call returned some error | Dec 26 23:51 |
| schestowitz | which I guess means it's not too probably that much happened except junk files appeared in homedir | Dec 26 23:51 |
| schestowitz | nothing strange has happened since, maybe I stopped it fast enough | Dec 26 23:52 |
| BACKUP | ||
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 00:02 | |
| amarsh04 | thanks for the tuxmachines.org pointer to a KDE article that mentioned: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=356580 | Dec 20 00:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.kde.org | Bug 356580 – startplasmacompositor - kwin_wayland - "/usr/lib/startplasma" - hangs at "start_kdeinit_wrapper" [ http://ur1.ca/ocpv5 ] | Dec 20 00:10 | |
| amarsh04 | I think that was the root cause of a problem that I had with the other pc for several weeks | Dec 20 00:10 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 20 08:58 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Dec 20 08:58:21 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Dec 20 08:58:47 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 20 08:58 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 20 08:58 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 20 08:58 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 10:23 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 10:26 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 20 10:39 | |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-89-240-16-191.as13285.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 10:46 | |
| cubexyz | One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 11:43 |
| cubexyz | the idea that it's somehow the best OS is erroneous | Dec 20 11:44 |
| cubexyz | an OS that can destroy itself without any human interaction? | Dec 20 11:45 |
| cubexyz | updated foss matrix: | Dec 20 11:56 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/foss-matrix.txt | Dec 20 11:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: postscript printer is a bit old. Most advanced printers these days are pdf printers. | Dec 20 12:15 |
| oiaohm | Because pdf can store color correction profiles. | Dec 20 12:15 |
| cubexyz | what printer would you recommend, keeping in mind I use all sorts of oddball OSes | Dec 20 12:18 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: you have to remember cups internally these days uses PDF. | Dec 20 12:18 |
| oiaohm | So as long as the OS you use can print by a cups print server PDF supporting printer would be good enough cubexyz | Dec 20 12:19 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the issue with postscript only printers is that postscript was really designed for black and white so color correction stuff does not have place to go in postscript. | Dec 20 12:22 |
| cubexyz | that's ok. My old HP LaserJet is B&W | Dec 20 12:22 |
| oiaohm | exchange has replacement openchange that allows you to use sogo to provide exchange protocol to outlook yet not run exchange itself. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| oiaohm | sogo is the groupware and openchange provides the exchnage protocol bits. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| oiaohm | Kinda explains why Microsoft is going after cloud so much. | Dec 20 12:33 |
| cubexyz | just encountered something new... | Dec 20 12:50 |
| cubexyz | a web site that works with flash9 but not 10 or 11 | Dec 20 12:50 |
| *WeS has quit (Quit: Gtg See ya Later) | Dec 20 12:50 | |
| *ohama has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) | Dec 20 13:18 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/678557009399123968 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: @schestowitz #Facebook has always been 'highly selective' in what it bans/censors. | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MarvinHZalowitz/status/678560848210583552 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MarvinHZalowitz: @schestowitz @SeaH2ONymph FACE BOOK: POLITICALLY CENSORED... I've been censored... | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/indy_johar/status/678561064536154113 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@indy_johar: In an increasingly interdependent world - how do we do governance & then journalism? https://t.co/HwOOAGv2sc | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #AlJazeera Blocks Anti-Saudi Arabia Article https://t.co/SADPrwW47P Barbaria has so much to hide from the world. #censorship | Dec 20 13:26 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/_PaulMoseley_/status/678562245987721216 | Dec 20 13:26 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@_PaulMoseley_: @indy_johar @schestowitz @the_intercept demonstrate the benefits/abilities transparent and adaptive ecosystems hold over restrictive ones. | Dec 20 13:27 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png | Dec 20 13:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-connect() timed out! ( status 0 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/overly-complex.png ) | Dec 20 13:27 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: that not only complex. I still remember the time with MS Office 2003 I opened every toolbar it had. | Dec 20 13:49 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: because you need a triange tool occupying 160 pixels of your screen all the time | Dec 20 13:54 |
| schestowitz | you know, you must draw triangles on your text every other minute... | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | I personally minimise GUIs to what I actually use | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | the rest I can find folded under menus | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | less clutter, less likelihood of errors, higher speed, productivity | Dec 20 13:55 |
| schestowitz | same in web browsers | Dec 20 13:55 |
| cubexyz | schestowitz :) | Dec 20 13:56 |
| cubexyz | note to self: do not program overly elaborate toolbars | Dec 20 13:57 |
| cubexyz | I don't have any idea what half that stuff does | Dec 20 13:59 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/iPrivate404/status/678577331603132416 | Dec 20 14:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@iPrivate404: #Beware #SpyWare 🚩🆘 #NoSpy 🔎📵 https://t.co/5wdfkvBt0J | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile https://t.co/wkqlt7mOar ... https://t.co/HrfOY7e1Pp | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921638 | Dec 20 14:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Bombshell report details dozens of secret devices U.S. uses on mobile http://bgr.com/2015/12/17/government-surveillance-spy-catalog/ https://www.rt.com/usa/326361-secret-surveillance-catalog-intercept/ http://bgr.com/2015/12/18/nsa-spy-devices-cellphone-data-tracking/ | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | Government Surveillance: The devices used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtj ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.rt.com | Intercepted catalog shows off secret surveillance gear — RT USA [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtk ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> bgr.com | NSA spy devices: The scariest gadgets used to spy on cellphones | BGR [ http://ur1.ca/ocqtl ] | Dec 20 14:08 | |
| schestowitz | glad I don't own a mobile | Dec 20 14:08 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 14:16 | |
| *ohama (ohama@cicolina.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 14:18 | |
| MinceR | 124315 < cubexyz> One can't hold up windows as an example of an operating system that is in any way ideal | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | it's ideally fucked up | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | both in design and in implementation | Dec 20 14:28 |
| MinceR | but maybe poettering and his cult can outdo it! | Dec 20 14:28 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/El_racionalista/status/678618288914477057 | Dec 20 16:55 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@El_racionalista: @schestowitz @All4Privacy If it isn't free software, I can't trust it. How to know what is doing if you can't access the source code? | Dec 20 16:55 | |
| *sabalmyrak (~lars@cm-84.208.229.82.getinternet.no) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 17:51 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678631710398005249 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: @schestowitz It is warm here in Kiev too. And still no snow(( | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/678633566335582209 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: Крепостное право живее всех живых в Мире, наравне, конечно, с рабовладением. https://t.co/gVXH477fBE | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: The far right-hand #heritagefoundation wants to conduct deep #surveillance for #immigration purposes https://t.co/yZdUkmmtGm | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kdghantous/status/678635329318879233 | Dec 20 17:59 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kdghantous: Do you have any idea how the energy industry works? Any idea at all? https://t.co/xtMefdWKLn | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #climatechange deniers (often funded by the oil industry) claim that throwing them aside is "censorship" https://t.co/RhvY36dd6X it's not | Dec 20 17:59 | |
| *Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 18:22 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 20:34 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host81-152-84-174.range81-152.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 20 20:43 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921407 | Dec 20 21:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of #Android Phone http://www.idigitaltimes.com/blackberry-priv-bb-3q-earnings-12-percent-following-release-android-phone-498932 #linux | Dec 20 21:49 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.idigitaltimes.com | BlackBerry Priv: BB 3Q Earnings Up 12 Percent Following Release Of Android Phone [ http://ur1.ca/ocraw ] | Dec 20 21:49 | |
| schestowitz | "Hmm… I wonder if it is really the Android Phone as there should not be even 1 month of selling in those Q3 earnings report." | Dec 20 21:49 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/fth_nix/status/678697256711757824 | Dec 20 22:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@fth_nix: Please!!!!! https://t.co/KR7lvkbe0C | Dec 20 22:06 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: LEGO: The New Open Source Toy? https://t.co/Jtp2L0VDkx #lego #freesw #github | Dec 20 22:06 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 20 22:26 | |
| *sabalmyrak has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 20 23:07 | |
| schestowitz | > Sorry, but I have not been here for a while. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > The below link is all over the place in EPO, and outside. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > nice video: | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > "EPO Management Discovers Media is Against It" | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | > I attach EPO-FLIER No. 18, it's funny too | Dec 21 00:14 |
| schestowitz | Glad people appreciate the video. Took nearly an hour to edit and all... could make it funnier if I put some time into it. | Dec 21 00:14 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 21 09:16 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 09:16:06 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 09:16:31 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 21 09:16 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 21 09:16 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 21 09:16 | |
| *cubeman_ (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 09:49 | |
| *cubexyz has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 09:50 | |
| r_schestowitz | "Rumours say EPO’s President Battistelli’s proposal to reform the Boards of Appeal, move it out of Munich, and create a new oversight structure has just been rejected, Merpel says." | Dec 21 09:50 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/never-too-late-if-you-missed-ipkat-last_21.html | Dec 21 09:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Never too late: if you missed the IPKat last week [ http://ur1.ca/ocrvf ] | Dec 21 09:50 | |
| *tessier_ (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 09:58 | |
| *balrog_ (~balrog@unaffiliated/balrog) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 10:02 | |
| *tessier has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trn has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *balrog has quit (*.net *.split) | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *balrog_ is now known as balrog | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trnv2 (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 10:12 | |
| *trnv2 is now known as trn | Dec 21 10:20 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678885583893233664 | Dec 21 10:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: .@schestowitz Hrmbl. Red Hat Linux. Hrmbl. ;-) But our dedication to support open standards (ODF) clearly shows :-) | Dec 21 10:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890574003486720 https://twitter.com/mcepl/status/678890371087278080 | Dec 21 11:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz sorry, not a journalist, "independent researcher". | Dec 21 11:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@mcepl: @jwildeboer @schestowitz why would you expect a journalist spend more than five minutes while transcribing a press release in his own words? | Dec 21 11:04 | |
| r_schestowitz | Did I ever say Red Hat did not support ODF?! | Dec 21 11:04 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jmcest/status/678893451178569729 | Dec 21 11:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jmcest: RT @schestowitz Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V https://t.co/xie5eu93lE #epo #battistelli | Dec 21 11:05 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | Battistelli’s Furious Love Affair With French Power: Part V | Techrights | Dec 21 11:05 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/jwildeboer/status/678894450060500993 | Dec 21 11:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@jwildeboer: @schestowitz I made a generic statement, not a correction or attack. Quite some out there question RHTs commitment to desktop/users | Dec 21 11:18 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6923011 | Dec 21 11:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Imagine giving the World Cup (e.g. in football) to the wrong team, only to realise the error one minute later. Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvegBo4TUdQ | Dec 21 11:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.youtube.com | HD: (FULL) Steve Harvey Messes Up On Miss Universe 2015! COLOMBIA x Philippines - YouTube [ http://ur1.ca/ocrzh ] | Dec 21 11:48 | |
| *cubeman_ has quit (Quit: Leaving) | Dec 21 11:51 | |
| *cubexyz (~cubeman@maxhost.org) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 11:51 | |
| *amarsh04_ (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 13:32 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) | Dec 21 13:32 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 21 17:22 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 17:22:56 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 21 17:25:28 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 21 17:25 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 21 17:25 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 21 17:25 | |
| MinceR | none of these toys are usable in a critical environment | Dec 21 17:25 |
| MinceR | with the vista10 botnet, spyware and malware "features", linux is very far from a "security nightmare" | Dec 21 17:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: moving the console code to userspace means if it buffer overflowed or otherwise stupid you don't kernel panic the complete system. | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | remember, m$ admits they turn their spyware back on even if you disable them | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | yeah, you merely end up with a computer you can't use anymore | Dec 21 17:26 |
| MinceR | since you have no display and no input | Dec 21 17:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: vt console change can be kernel mode even with a KMScon. | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | this sort of stuff makes openbsd all the more inviting | Dec 21 17:27 |
| oiaohm | So instead of losng everything you lose 1 screen and can swiitch away. | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: so you can switch to another console that won't display anything and won't take any input? | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | i've heard poettering's cult wants to remove virtual console support too | Dec 21 17:27 |
| MinceR | probably because winblows can't switch consoles, therefore it must be heresy to allow it | Dec 21 17:28 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel developers not agreeing with vt removal. | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | depends on which | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | with idiots like kay sievers and m$ employees having code in the kernel... | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | poettering too, iirc | Dec 21 17:28 |
| oiaohm | virtual console and vt are different things. | Dec 21 17:28 |
| MinceR | (ironically, the m$ code hardcodes /etc/init.d/networking restart or something like that, which won't work on cancerd | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | ) | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | yeah, but without vt nothing will appear on the vc | Dec 21 17:29 |
| MinceR | might as well be playing with a rock | Dec 21 17:29 |
| oiaohm | Not exact true. fblog that prints out kernel error messages does not use vc | Dec 21 17:30 |
| MinceR | can you recover the system with fblog? | Dec 21 17:30 |
| oiaohm | fblog is to print out when you have hit kernel panic or system has not inited yet. | Dec 21 17:30 |
| MinceR | will it give you a root shell? | Dec 21 17:31 |
| oiaohm | To be correct fblog will work even without vt or means of using a graphical shell. fblog will cope with just a printer as output. | Dec 21 17:32 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 17:32 | |
| oiaohm | To be correct shell at all. | Dec 21 17:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to use a root shell you need a virtual console of some form. Ether linux kernel virtual console or kmscon or like xterm | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | and if the kernel doesn't have it anymore and kmscon crashes, you're screwe | Dec 21 17:34 |
| oiaohm | Basically I don't see any particularly good reason for the virtual console code to be running in ring 0. | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | d | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | especially if it's integrated into systemd, because why wouldn't they miss an opportunity like this? | Dec 21 17:34 |
| MinceR | i don't see any assurance that it will be reliable at all once it's moved out of the kernel | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | If the console code is in ring 1 2 or 3 instead of 1 a reset could be attempted. | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | especially considering that it will likely end up in systemd | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | opps instead of 0 | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | and most likely in pid1 | Dec 21 17:35 |
| MinceR | so you can't even restart it if it crashes | Dec 21 17:35 |
| oiaohm | Really even if virtual console was still built into kernel it still could be operationally run as lower rings. | Dec 21 17:36 |
| oiaohm | But that is redesign it. | Dec 21 17:36 |
| MinceR | maybe you could even have a fallback console in ring0 that only starts if the usermode thing failed | Dec 21 17:37 |
| MinceR | maybe via magic sysrq | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | Really there is no reason for the fall back console to be in ring 0 | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | only thing you need it in ring 0 is blit to screen. | Dec 21 17:37 |
| MinceR | wouldn't make much of a difference in that case | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | Remember console is taking random crap from keyboard input and other things. | Dec 21 17:37 |
| oiaohm | Basically its facing fuss testing. | Dec 21 17:38 |
| MinceR | fuzzing | Dec 21 17:38 |
| oiaohm | console is something I see as an item that should not be in ring 0 | Dec 21 17:39 |
| oiaohm | some of the complex network code of the Linux kernel is pushed into lower rings for the same reason. | Dec 21 17:39 |
| oiaohm | Yes networking code of linux provide the precentant even if it built into the kernel that it might not be run as ring 0 | Dec 21 17:40 |
| oiaohm | VC either thrown out of kernel or made run at a sane ring level where possible. | Dec 21 17:41 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 17:43 | |
| msb__ | MinceR: hello? | Dec 21 18:10 |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 21 18:13 |
| msb__ | Arguing with oiaohm is a waste of time. He's some kind of agent, or is brainwashed. | Dec 21 18:15 |
| MinceR | it's sometimes interesting | Dec 21 18:16 |
| msb__ | Using and developing good old sysvinit Linux is interesting. Arguing about cancerd is sickening. At least to me. | Dec 21 18:17 |
| msb__ | You have said that most people want to destroy themselves. But it's not true. People have been programmed to do destructive things. | Dec 21 18:18 |
| msb__ | Like adopting systemd. | Dec 21 18:18 |
| msb__ | The world is mostly run by a loose conglomerate of ultra-wealthy psychopaths. They murder millions of people for power and profit. And they program most people to believe what they're told and obey. | Dec 21 18:19 |
| msb__ | systemd is a project of the psychopath rulers. | Dec 21 18:20 |
| msb__ | They want to destr0y Linux because Linux helps people to be free. | Dec 21 18:21 |
| msb__ | hello? | Dec 21 18:23 |
| msb__ | MinceR: Can you focus your mind on anything other than cancerd and putin? | Dec 21 18:24 |
| msb__ | Like trying to understand how the world actually works? | Dec 21 18:25 |
| MinceR | i can | Dec 21 18:27 |
| MinceR | for example, now i'm focusing on choosing new maps for my xonotic server :> | Dec 21 18:28 |
| msb__ | A computer game | Dec 21 18:36 |
| msb__ | A couple times recently my screen has gone all black and is unresponsive. I thought I had to reboot, but today I tried going to a text console and that worked. | Dec 21 18:38 |
| msb__ | I think my script for using mplayer to play from my tv card gets hung up, and if it's full-screen then I get the problem. | Dec 21 18:39 |
| msb__ | but I was able to kill it off from a text console, and get back with ctrl-alt-F7 and everything was ok. | Dec 21 18:40 |
| msb__ | Linux is very versatile. If I'd been running systemd it would probably have told me I have to buy a new computer. | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd disappoints me | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | I used to hear it's for speed | Dec 21 18:41 |
| r_schestowitz | but it's slower for me | Dec 21 18:41 |
| MinceR | you're not the only one | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | and then when I say it only "camp systemd" says it's a fallacy, it was never for speed | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | then what the F* is it for? | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | redhat world domination | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | oh, and "modern"ity | Dec 21 18:42 |
| msb__ | It's purpose is to ruin Linux. | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > systemd took ~5 minutes to boot on one of our SOCs running fedora | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > ubuntu took ~30 seconds | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | > it was using upstart iirc | Dec 21 18:42 |
| r_schestowitz | systemd doesn't even start things in the right order here | Dec 21 18:42 |
| MinceR | gotta boot fest | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and some said online it doesn't even shut them down right | Dec 21 18:43 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | causing deadlocks and crap | Dec 21 18:43 |
| msb__ | The ultra-wealthy psychopaths who control most of the world want to get rid of Linux, because it helps people communicate. | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | 2015: and we have bugs so basic, like killing the connection before closing sockets | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | and they're railroading this crap into "stable" releases | Dec 21 18:43 |
| r_schestowitz | KDE starts my applications now before it even starts plasma-shell | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | so I start with an empty blank desktop | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | both in 15:04 and 15:10 | Dec 21 18:44 |
| msb__ | It would be great to find out how maintainers of good distros like debian and suse were motivated to adopt systemd, but if you ask, all you get is ridicule. | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | later on.... voila... I actually feel like it's not a black screen of death because applications SLOWLY show upo | Dec 21 18:44 |
| r_schestowitz | and at the end I got wallpapers and menus, maybe a minute later | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | welcomd to KDE 1 | Dec 21 18:45 |
| MinceR | afaik redhat used their control over gnome to make gnome depend on it, then had the gnome people pressure debian to adopt systemd | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | or something crappy like that... at least the KDE apps weren't broken | Dec 21 18:45 |
| MinceR | the TC acted weirdly | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | some upgraded to qt5, not bad.... though Dolphin is SHI***t | Dec 21 18:45 |
| r_schestowitz | More SHH***TE than it was in KDE 4.0 | Dec 21 18:45 |
| msb__ | r_schestowitz: try trinity | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | It's not even a file manager | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | it's like some comp. sci. 1st year project | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | with qt | Dec 21 18:46 |
| msb__ | and mc for a file manager | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | i went back to mc | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | small, fast, works better with the keyboard with pretty much any GUI | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | I think it was abandoned and nobody properly took over it | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | after they had effectively killed konqueror | Dec 21 18:46 |
| MinceR | and works well over network connections | Dec 21 18:46 |
| r_schestowitz | which was a LOT more powerful than dolphin EVER was | Dec 21 18:47 |
| msb__ | mc even works in text consoles | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: I would try Trinity, but need an old base | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | the latest bases are system-infested | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | *temd | Dec 21 18:47 |
| msb__ | in fact, mplayer plays videos in text consoles! uses fbdev | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | This is the WORST KDE experience ever | Dec 21 18:47 |
| r_schestowitz | both 15.04 and 15.10 fully patched | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | worse than kde in 2000 | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | which I used on hardware that's only good for digital photo frames these days | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | vlc sometimes takes 20 secs to start on this system | Dec 21 18:48 |
| r_schestowitz | dual core 2+ghz | Dec 21 18:49 |
| r_schestowitz | so something, somewhere seriously makes this system "experimental" quality | Dec 21 18:49 |
| msb__ | cubexyz recommends q4os, which had a maintenance release a couple weeks ago. | Dec 21 18:50 |
| msb__ | q4os.org | Dec 21 18:50 |
| msb__ | maybe trinity runs on it | Dec 21 18:50 |
| MinceR | i recommend perusing the list at http://without-systemd.org/ | Dec 21 18:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 21 18:51 | |
| msb__ | cubexyz: Which DE does q4os use? | Dec 21 18:53 |
| msb__ | It has a link to trinity. Maybe that's what it uses! | Dec 21 18:54 |
| msb__ | There's a #q4os channel, but nobody in it. | Dec 21 19:06 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:21 | |
| *r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 19:27 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 19:28 | |
| cubexyz | q4os uses trinity or icewm probably other ones too | Dec 21 21:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity by default | Dec 21 21:31 |
| cubexyz | trinity built-in was the main reason why I tried q4os | Dec 21 21:32 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-2015.png | Dec 21 21:35 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 21 22:26 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 21 23:04 | |
| *amarsh04_ has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 21 23:30 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 21 23:32 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). | Dec 22 00:51 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 00:51:55 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 00:52:20 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 00:52 | |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Dec 22 12:11:20 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272068458876928 | Dec 22 12:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I don't care so much about GNUisms, but I hardly know or meet any Android or Chrome OS open source developers... | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | Android is a broad world, where the overall minority which is FOSS developers is, well... a minority | Dec 22 12:11 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272501608906753 https://twitter.com/stonehead/status/679272853460660226 | Dec 22 12:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz If not even Red Hat is mentioned in such a list about Linux, the author is only business- and consumer-oriented | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@stonehead: @schestowitz I guess I really have to get used to totally non-technical articles which claim to be about "Linux" then :/ | Dec 22 12:11 | |
| r_schestowitz | He's technical, but a Google fan | Dec 22 12:11 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 12:14 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Metztli_IT/status/679276882399911936 | Dec 22 12:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Metztli_IT: Components befit an Enterprise OS (#RHEL 7.x) but, as 4any #GNU/#Linux, there are 3rd party repos for desktop #apps: https://t.co/Yc1Arsg3Q5 | Dec 22 12:32 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: @Metztli_IT @fedora @openSUSE @ORCL_Linux But not for desktop... | Dec 22 12:32 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 13:00 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> "The donation box is full of small | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> transactions made with stolen creditcards, I have to decline this stuff | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> every week to stay clear of Stripe and Paypal's ban. So my guess is | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> that the trolls are still active and trying to hit below the belt." | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.195604.7ee1f6f7.en.html | Dec 22 13:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll | Dec 22 13:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >>> https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20151221.203527.4cce477b.en.html | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >>> Who, really, is driving systemd and Poettering? | Dec 22 13:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-lists.dyne.org | Re: [DNG] Don't feed the troll [ http://ur1.ca/octgk ] | Dec 22 13:32 | |
| r_schestowitz | >> | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | >> Been giving me nothing but pain, technically. Ruining the desktop. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I've been postponing it by sticking with Ubuntu 14.04 because all the | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > technical info I can get says it sucks. I expect to move to Devuan, and | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > I hope very much that Mint and a few other distros pick it up as a base. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > But I am surprised by the scale of trolling. Apparently even Wikipedia | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | > articles have been attacked and/or deleted by systemd trolls. | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | They call trolls those who antagonise systemd | Dec 22 13:32 |
| r_schestowitz | Like in the mono days... | Dec 22 13:32 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 13:34 | |
| cubexyz | systemd trolls? :) | Dec 22 13:39 |
| cubexyz | apt-get remove systemd-trolls | Dec 22 13:40 |
| cubexyz | as for GNU's importance... all I have to do is mention gcc | Dec 22 13:45 |
| cubexyz | ok, there's a new version of Alpine... it's on the without-systemd page | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Dear Roy, | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > you were awaiting the translation of a letter in French addressed to an MP. Here is the translation. As always the translation might not be perfect and my apologies for the poor formatting. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Thanks again for all the good work. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | > Kind Regards. | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | That's fantastic, thank you so much! | Dec 22 13:47 |
| r_schestowitz | Now that I can read it (and will publish it) I can see that Battistelli's intimidation attempts against the M(E)P only brought out the worse of him. :-) | Dec 22 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Mono had and has patent issues. | Dec 22 13:48 |
| cubexyz | Q4OS isn't on the list but it should be | Dec 22 13:48 |
| cubexyz | Alpine does look interesting... secure, lightweight, musl libc + busybox | Dec 22 13:50 |
| cubexyz | libreoffice 5.0 is built-in | Dec 22 13:50 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: https://dvdhrm.wordpress.com/2013/08/24/how-vt-switching-works/ when you read stuff like this you start thinking twice about the world secure and Linux distrobutions. | Dec 22 14:02 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dvdhrm.wordpress.com | How VT-switching works | Ponyhof | Dec 22 14:02 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes VT console switch has a permission race condition problem. | Dec 22 14:02 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the permission race condition probleme exists with consolekit as well. | Dec 22 14:03 |
| r_schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/679300135231299584 | Dec 22 14:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Yeah, same here... :( | Dec 22 14:05 | |
| cubexyz | argh, can't remember how to properly use krename | Dec 22 14:08 |
| cubexyz | is there a glob to exclude filenames that don't start with a number? | Dec 22 14:09 |
| cubexyz | hold on... krename [0-9]* should work | Dec 22 14:11 |
| oiaohm | I was just about to say that one. | Dec 22 14:12 |
| cubexyz | brilliant :) | Dec 22 14:12 |
| cubexyz | the three digit prefix wasn't quite enough digits | Dec 22 14:14 |
| cubexyz | so I'm switching to a four digit prefix, but there was over 1k of files | Dec 22 14:15 |
| cubexyz | krename simplifies the job nicely | Dec 22 14:15 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, there's no way to reset the "text" console | Dec 22 14:18 |
| cubexyz | I put the word text in quotes because it is in fact rasterized graphics | Dec 22 14:18 |
| cubexyz | also I have to deal with the text console on OpenBSD which is no doubt different | Dec 22 14:19 |
| oiaohm | The OpenBSD console is different to the Linux VT. | Dec 22 14:20 |
| cubexyz | does that article say anything about corrupted VT? | Dec 22 14:20 |
| cubexyz | anyways... :-/ | Dec 22 14:21 |
| cubexyz | yup, my slackware box currently has botched up VT | Dec 22 14:21 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the race conditions with permissions explained botched up vt a lot. | Dec 22 14:22 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons Different BSD groupts have rebuilt there VT systems. | Dec 22 14:22 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.freebsd.org/Newcons ) | Dec 22 14:22 | |
| oiaohm | Linux VT system needs a lot of rebuilding work. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, so can you tell me why "/sbin/modprobe radeonfb" fixes botched up VT? | Dec 22 14:23 |
| oiaohm | Or scraping. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | that's really my only fix | Dec 22 14:23 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: drive loading triggers a permission reset by logind or consolekit. | Dec 22 14:23 |
| cubexyz | doh, and I have to watch out for x2x situations too | Dec 22 14:24 |
| cubexyz | otherwise I end up switching to VT on a different computer | Dec 22 14:24 |
| cubexyz | drive loading? | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | drive/driver | Dec 22 14:25 |
| cubexyz | oh, device driver | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | x2x issues are some of the reason to want wayland. | Dec 22 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Lot of things systemd started off attempting to fix are real issues. | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, I had a tough time with some windows customers yesterday | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | we all sat down and they asked me what are the alternatives to windows | Dec 22 14:26 |
| cubexyz | so I said: chromebox, Mac OS X, linux, openbsd... | Dec 22 14:27 |
| cubexyz | anyways, lots of work :) | Dec 22 14:27 |
| oiaohm | I know a lot hate systemd but list of issues that need fixing are long. | Dec 22 14:28 |
| cubexyz | we can fix stuff without using systemd though | Dec 22 14:28 |
| cubexyz | busybox, openrc, etc | Dec 22 14:28 |
| oiaohm | busybox still has not address the VT issue. | Dec 22 14:28 |
| oiaohm | openrc logind replacement at least has a chance. | Dec 22 14:29 |
| cubexyz | can linux use a true text mode? | Dec 22 14:29 |
| cubexyz | I'm sure that Xenix did | Dec 22 14:30 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't a true text mode be faster? | Dec 22 14:30 |
| cubexyz | maybe just stick a terminal on the computer | Dec 22 14:31 |
| cubexyz | then we aren't forcing the video card into different modes all the time | Dec 22 14:31 |
| cubexyz | lower memory consumption too | Dec 22 14:32 |
| oiaohm | https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SerialConsoleHowto I guess you are thinking serial console. | Dec 22 14:33 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-help.ubuntu.com | SerialConsoleHowto - Community Help Wiki | Dec 22 14:33 | |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: if you are thinking using text mode in the graphics card. You must be feeling lucky. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| cubexyz | I'm not feeling lucky actually | Dec 22 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Some modern video cards don't have text processing any more. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| oiaohm | So they only take graphical data. | Dec 22 14:34 |
| cubexyz | since when? | Dec 22 14:34 |
| oiaohm | Back into the powerpc apple time frame. | Dec 22 14:35 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: its one of the supprising when attempting to get Linux to run on apple laptops. | Dec 22 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Hey I will force Linux to use bios textmode. Opps nada. | Dec 22 14:37 |
| cubexyz | surely MSDOS an FreeDOS have a true text mode? | Dec 22 14:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: DisplayLink devices of course don't have vesa stuff. | Dec 22 14:38 |
| cubexyz | so the modern video cards may support it maybe? | Dec 22 14:38 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: text mode is optional. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: just like graphical mode is optional. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | People forgot this. | Dec 22 14:39 |
| cubexyz | doesn't linux start in text mode then switch to graphical mode? | Dec 22 14:39 |
| cubexyz | and what if you don't bother with X at all? | Dec 22 14:39 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: what looks like text can by Linux can be framebuffer text rendered by the Linux kernel it self. | Dec 22 14:40 |
| oiaohm | So graphics card not having text mode does not really effect if Linux can or cannot display text. | Dec 22 14:40 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: MSDOS/Freedos depend on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INT_10H being provided. Of course this could by video card firmware or bios firmware or by videocard hardware. | Dec 22 14:43 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-en.wikipedia.org | INT 10H - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | Dec 22 14:43 | |
| cubexyz | so the video card can do it | Dec 22 14:43 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: video card can do it or the bios could do it. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | otherwise FreeDOS or MSDOS wouldn't work | Dec 22 14:44 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Freedos and MSDOS will work as long as something does it. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| oiaohm | does not have to be the graphics card. | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | I don't follow you... it must be the video card | Dec 22 14:44 |
| cubexyz | it drives the display :) | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Text conversion could be done by the bios then raw image passed to video card to display. | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | In that case the video card does not have a textmode. | Dec 22 14:45 |
| cubexyz | the video card bios? | Dec 22 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Does not have to be the video card bios. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| oiaohm | Could be the video card bios or it could be embedded in core firmware. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: x86 too many ways to skin the cat. | Dec 22 14:46 |
| cubexyz | "there is currently no fallback that can take over once Xorg crashed" | Dec 22 14:50 |
| cubexyz | I assume a serial console would still function ^^^ | Dec 22 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep it would exactly why ssh does as well. | Dec 22 14:51 |
| cubexyz | serial console would have simpler logic though | Dec 22 14:51 |
| oiaohm | VT area of Unix like OS's is migrain central. | Dec 22 14:51 |
| cubexyz | doesn't need encryption | Dec 22 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I've since X run for over a year... BUT... | Dec 22 14:52 |
| cubexyz | I wasn't switching to "text console" at all | Dec 22 14:53 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes stuff like that is VT handling failure. | Dec 22 14:53 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, only thing is I don't really have a cheap video terminal for a serial console | Dec 22 14:53 |
| cubexyz | just minicom from another computer | Dec 22 14:54 |
| oiaohm | Really for Linux to be fully desktop ready the graphical system include what ever is the modern vt needs to be way more solid. | Dec 22 14:54 |
| cubexyz | it's probably better than anything else though | Dec 22 14:55 |
| cubexyz | well, maybe mainframes are better :) | Dec 22 14:56 |
| cubexyz | I can't say really | Dec 22 14:56 |
| oiaohm | solaris added KMS a lot earlier | Dec 22 14:57 |
| oiaohm | So some of the mainframe unix solutions have had better vts. | Dec 22 14:58 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: of course some have had worse. | Dec 22 14:59 |
| cubexyz | windows :) | Dec 22 15:00 |
| oiaohm | To be horible windows VT does works. Reason why bluescreens of death always showed up instead of Linux frozen to hell. | Dec 22 15:02 |
| cubexyz | don't think Amiga had any real text mode either now that I think about it | Dec 22 15:02 |
| cubexyz | but the BSOD means you are dead anyway | Dec 22 15:03 |
| cubexyz | you can't recover | Dec 22 15:03 |
| cubexyz | if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 15:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/student-bsod.jpg | Dec 22 15:04 |
| cubexyz | you got ctrl-alt-del and that's it | Dec 22 15:05 |
| cubexyz | with linux I _could_ probably continue by restarting X | Dec 22 15:07 |
| cubexyz | either way, you will probably lose some work... unless you are in vi | Dec 22 15:09 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: Linux may not display the kernel panic due to X11 graphics still being in the way. | Dec 22 15:24 |
| cubexyz | I haven't seen a kernel panic in a long time | Dec 22 15:24 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes it all over but not having the error code means you have the nightmare of hitting the same problem again. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| cubexyz | I've seen X botch up and reset itself though | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes you don't get kernel paincs on Linux normally unless some bit of hardware is going wrong. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | Problem here is not knowing what bit of hardware is going south. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: could be something critical like a harddrive. | Dec 22 15:25 |
| cubexyz | wouldn't there be something in the logs? | Dec 22 15:26 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends on the failure causing the kernel panic. Remember all writes like to logs and the like could be lost by the kernel panic trigger. | Dec 22 15:29 |
| cubexyz | would the kernel panic message show up on the serial terminal, assuming there was one? | Dec 22 15:30 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: as long as the fault does not come from the serial output system. | Dec 22 15:30 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem we do absolutely need to see kernel panic events. | Dec 22 15:31 |
| cubexyz | a serial problem shouldn't bring down the whole OS though | Dec 22 15:31 |
| cubexyz | cosmic rays, bad memory, bad hard drive, yes | Dec 22 15:32 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: depends how bad of serial problem. | Dec 22 15:33 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: controllers going nuts and over writing a stack of memory anything can happen. | Dec 22 15:33 |
| cubexyz | I think the superio included the IDE controller | Dec 22 15:38 |
| cubexyz | also serial, parallel, floppy | Dec 22 15:38 |
| cubexyz | so if the superio was OKed that could stop the hard drive access | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | It seems that not all of the EPO is on vacation. The communique of the AC's meeting has been released. | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://www.epo.org/about-us/organisation/communiques.html | Dec 22 15:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.epo.org | EPO - Communiqués | Dec 22 15:39 | |
| r_schestowitz | "After the Chairman's activities report, covering in particular the last meetings of the Board of the Administrative Council, the President of the European Patent Office Benoît Battistelli gave an update on developments at the Office since the previous Council meeting. The Council was particularly pleased with the remarkable results achieved by the Office in terms of production, productivity and quality. It nevertheless again | Dec 22 15:39 |
| cubexyz | so yes, I think you are right | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | expressed concern about the deteriorated social climate and called for initiatives and genuine efforts from all parties involved to seek compromise solutions to end a situation detrimental to the proper functioning of the Office and the public image of the whole Organisation. The Council hoped that the independent, external social study to be launched at the beginning of 2016 would be a significant contribution to improvement." | Dec 22 15:39 |
| r_schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450769841155#c2916370631058633135 | Dec 22 15:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/octmx ] | Dec 22 15:39 | |
| amarsh04 | if one party is the cause of problems, compromise is at least partially giving into the party at fault | Dec 22 15:43 |
| *jgay (~jgay@fsf/staff/jgay) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 15:46 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg | Dec 22 16:01 |
| XRevan86 | - What are you doing, punks? | Dec 22 16:05 |
| XRevan86 | - There are candy. Just like Dad. | Dec 22 16:05 |
| cubexyz | :) | Dec 22 16:05 |
| msb__ | What is the "VT" that oiaohm is claiming is broken in Linux? | Dec 22 16:52 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 16:54 |
| msb__ | They work fine for me. I can even watch videos in them! mplayer uses fbdev! | Dec 22 16:58 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 17:32 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 22 17:38 | |
| r_schestowitz | https://www.joindiaspora.com/posts/6925400 | Dec 22 18:27 |
| r_schestowitz | cubexyz: ^ | Dec 22 18:27 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Get 'em while they're young http://www.maxhost.org/other/just-like-dad.jpg sticking that long thing in their mouths to form habits | Dec 22 18:27 | |
| r_schestowitz | msb__: virtual terminal | Dec 22 18:31 |
| r_schestowitz | like those terminals that used to be physical back in the days an had very crude i/o | Dec 22 18:31 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | [15:04] <cubexyz> if the windows GUI dies, it's all over | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | How true | Dec 22 18:32 |
| r_schestowitz | not sitting on top of the shell, so no way to diagonise or to bring it back up | Dec 22 18:33 |
| msb__ | Does it mean the text consoles that you get with Ctrl-Alt-Fn? Or are there other virtual terminals? | Dec 22 18:34 |
| r_schestowitz | there are terminal emulators | Dec 22 18:38 |
| r_schestowitz | lots of them | Dec 22 18:38 |
| *r_schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 18:39 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 18:41 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 18:42 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 18:45 | |
| MinceR | http://40.media.tumblr.com/e4ffbe02de77b196c7b68ec251fcb4f3/tumblr_inline_nzpzm4zIqe1t63ajm_1280.jpg | Dec 22 18:58 |
| MinceR | https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10778642 | Dec 22 19:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://edri.org/santa-claus-confirms-nsa-attack-on-naughty-or-nice-database/ ) | Dec 22 19:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-news.ycombinator.com | Santa Claus Confirms NSA Attack on Naughty or Nice Database | Hacker News [ http://ur1.ca/octw1 ] | Dec 22 19:07 | |
| *tessier_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) | Dec 22 19:24 | |
| *tessier (~treed@wsip-70-166-32-111.sd.sd.cox.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| *tessier has quit (Changing host) | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| *tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:25 | |
| schestowitz | MinceR: seen it earlier | Dec 22 19:25 |
| schestowitz | funny concept | Dec 22 19:25 |
| schestowitz | >>> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/brunei-cancels-christmas-sultan-warns-those-celebrating-could-face-up-to-five-years-in-jail-a6782561.html | Dec 22 19:28 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.independent.co.uk | Brunei cancels Christmas: Sultan warns those celebrating could face up to five years in jail | Asia | News | The Independent | Dec 22 19:28 | |
| schestowitz | >>> >> | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >>> >> A better link about the same. | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > Thanks. | Dec 22 19:28 |
| schestowitz | >> > | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > See | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | >> > http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/millionaire-businessman-cleared-raping-teenager-7018414 | Dec 22 19:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.mirror.co.uk | Millionaire businessman cleared of raping teenager after he told court he may have accidentally penetrated her - Mirror Online | Dec 22 19:29 | |
| schestowitz | > Hmm. That judge needs a government investigation, with special | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | > attention to his recent cases. I've thought for several minutes and | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | > can't think of a lamer excuse. | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | yes, embarrassment to UK justice.... needs to be fixed ASAP. | Dec 22 19:29 |
| schestowitz | If it was in Saudi Barbaria I'd imagine she'd be sued | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | for defaming him | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | and beheaded in a public square | Dec 22 19:30 |
| schestowitz | For having been 'accidentally' raped | Dec 22 19:30 |
| *arossdotme (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 19:56 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 21:02 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 21:03 | |
| *arossdotme-planb (~zxy@host-84-13-235-151.opaltelecom.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 21:10 | |
| *arossdotme has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) | Dec 22 21:13 | |
| *arossdotme-planb has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 22 21:18 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 22 21:29 | |
| schestowitz | I think we have some good stories coming up in techrights, regarding the eu patents scandal: | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | I have begun working on a story which I believe can be broken down as follows: | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 1. EPO fires SUEPO person, without even notifying the person, and without telling the public | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 2. EPO took advantage of illness in the family | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | 3. EPO shows hypocrisy on cancer | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | The story would name no names, although people involved would likely know who's who, just not the general public. Is this narration OK? | Dec 22 22:02 |
| schestowitz | ewwww | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Swapil posted photo: "Selfie with Cloud Foundry CEO - Sam Ramji" | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Ramjo | Dec 22 22:13 |
| schestowitz | Might explains his pro-MS BS as of late | Dec 22 22:13 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 22 22:40 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 22 23:51 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 23:52 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 22 23:52 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 22 23:52 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: VT are broken on LInux when it comes to applied permissions. Race condition can work perfectly 90 percent of time. The issue is when you have user A on one VT and user B on another VT and you are switching between them. If the race condition triggers the permission change does not happen. | Dec 23 00:02 |
| oiaohm | msb__: So yes the arguement that o I can use Ctrl-Alt-Fn and it appears to work is in fact completely disregarding the fact the core design in the Linux kernel for handling VT is flawed. | Dec 23 00:04 |
| msb__ | What is the effect of this flaw? | Dec 23 00:10 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what has not been set and what the user is. User can find they have switched cannot mount drives when they should be able and so on. All the stuff logind and consolekit sets basically can have skipped happening. | Dec 23 00:13 |
| MinceR | so, once again the logind/polkit magic fails | Dec 23 00:19 |
| MinceR | but it was worth giving everything up for | Dec 23 00:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: consolekit and consolekit2 both fail the same way as well. | Dec 23 00:19 |
| MinceR | at least those don't hijack your system | Dec 23 00:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes the systemd solution of drop VT completely I don't agree with. If we want to keep it the VT API that has race condition has to be replaced by some local IPC that works correctly. | Dec 23 00:20 |
| MinceR | ooh, ipc | Dec 23 00:22 |
| MinceR | let me guess | Dec 23 00:22 |
| MinceR | kdbus! | Dec 23 00:22 |
| oiaohm | The other option is the kernel VT remembers the permission maps itself. So logind/consolekit uploads the permission map to kernel then the kernel takes care of the switching by itself. | Dec 23 00:23 |
| oiaohm | 1 of the race conditions is a device in use by 1 user that needs to change permissions user 2 that cannot until the user1 release it. | Dec 23 00:24 |
| oiaohm | Some cases when you do a VT switch it should be user termination. | Dec 23 00:25 |
| MinceR | user error. replace user and press any key to continue. | Dec 23 00:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: this is not something to joke with. One of the possible faults if someone attempts to intentionally trigger the race. Is scary enough you are logging in but the user name and password you just type in go to a display manager or getty and to a different user on the system. | Dec 23 00:33 |
| MinceR | sadly, gnu/linux development is increasingly driven by politics | Dec 23 00:35 |
| MinceR | the question they ask is not "what would be the best solution?" but "how could i push my 'technology' some more?" | Dec 23 00:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the Linux kernel has always been driven by politics. Its not like the BSD world with the techical board managing it. | Dec 23 00:49 |
| MinceR | i wasn't always aware of it | Dec 23 00:49 |
| oiaohm | https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html BSD's you find they have boards of directors. | Dec 23 00:51 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.freebsd.org/administration.html ) | Dec 23 00:51 | |
| oiaohm | Who sit to exactly debate over the best possible solution. | Dec 23 00:52 |
| MinceR | debian has a Technical Committee... and they capitulated to ratcrap | Dec 23 00:52 |
| oiaohm | Please note Debian technical committee is not like a freebsd development board. Freebsd development board is free to create new projects from scratch where required. Technical committee in debian is meant to choose what is techicially best out of existing solutions. | Dec 23 00:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: on techical merit unfortantly systemd at this stage beats openrc and sysvinit. Debian Technical Committee was not that they were happy either. Debian Technical committee has left the possiblity of a revote if a better solution appear or if openrc gets moe completed. | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | they may be meant for that, but they're obviously incapable of doing so | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | maybe someone who was brainwashed by deadrat believes it to be, but that does not make it so | Dec 23 00:56 |
| MinceR | on technical merit, cancerd is the worst possible design and the worst possible implementation | Dec 23 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Techical merit includes feature and function comparance. | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit does not mean features that were made up to check boxes | Dec 23 00:57 |
| oiaohm | systemd has horible implmentation I will give you that. MinceR | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | technical merit is about features that matter. | Dec 23 00:57 |
| MinceR | also, an init system does not need to do unrelated functionality | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | and shouldn't do so | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | as such, unrelated functionality is not a point in favor of cancerd, it's against it | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Features that matter include providing a possible solution to VT switching failures. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | they don't provide a solution to that, as you've said above | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | systemd logind does. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Horible by remove vt from kernel. | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | just like they don't provide a solution to their polkit issues, because their alleged solution requires revoke | Dec 23 00:58 |
| MinceR | which is not implemented | Dec 23 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Sorry it is implemented. | Dec 23 00:59 |
| MinceR | since when? | Dec 23 00:59 |
| oiaohm | The seat system for operating without in kernel Vt was implemented in systemd-logind in the year 2010 | Dec 23 00:59 |
| oiaohm | So yes there is a list of techical merits. | Dec 23 01:00 |
| oiaohm | So the other options do need to lift their game. | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | that's not an answer to the question | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | and yes, poettering came up with a ludicrous table | Dec 23 01:00 |
| MinceR | where exactly do they need to "lift their game"? to gain more leverage over gnome/debian people? | Dec 23 01:01 |
| oiaohm | openrc has issues where it does not even built dependablity into a package. That is kinda a major game breaker. | Dec 23 01:02 |
| MinceR | ooh, tell me more about how cancerd is dependable | Dec 23 01:03 |
| oiaohm | On techical merit lot of the debian guys were leaning to openrc. | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/316 | Dec 23 01:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-github.com | After resuming from standby, systemd is stuck trying to unmount a disk · Issue #316 · systemd/systemd · GitHub | Dec 23 01:03 | |
| oiaohm | Sad as it sound systemd does build dependablty from source. | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | dependability, according to you | Dec 23 01:03 |
| MinceR | on a software package that was declared stable 4 years before | Dec 23 01:04 |
| MinceR | https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=74589 | Dec 23 01:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugs.freedesktop.org | Bug 74589 – systemd segfaults if no cgroups are available [ http://ur1.ca/j3zxv ] | Dec 23 01:04 | |
| MinceR | checking pointers? not cancerd's job. | Dec 23 01:04 |
| MinceR | also, testing is for losers. | Dec 23 01:04 |
| cubexyz | systemd is horrible | Dec 23 01:05 |
| cubexyz | at least consider other options | Dec 23 01:05 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: most of what you are describing is quality control issues. | Dec 23 01:05 |
| cubexyz | you think people will run systemd on embedded? | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | no, it's more like competence issues | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: people have attempted to, with the disastrous results you'd expect | Dec 23 01:06 |
| MinceR | here's systemd failing at being a service manager: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1170765 | Dec 23 01:07 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=767885 ) | Dec 23 01:07 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-bugzilla.redhat.com | Bug 1170765 – systemd: all processes in scopes (including user sessions) SIGKILLed immediately on shutdown with no opportunity to shut down cleanly [ http://ur1.ca/ocua5 ] | Dec 23 01:07 | |
| MinceR | obviously a service manager that can't start or stop processes reliably has great technical merit, doesn't it? | Dec 23 01:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: also you are tunnelled visioned. | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | uh huh | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | expecting an init system to work is "tunnel vision" | Dec 23 01:07 |
| MinceR | you heard it here first, folks! | Dec 23 01:07 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 automount with sysvinit also does a stack of stupid things including at times getting suck attempting to unmount stuff. | Dec 23 01:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=643651 ) | Dec 23 01:08 | |
| MinceR | automount is not sysvinit | Dec 23 01:08 |
| oiaohm | So you don't use fstab with sysvinit right? | Dec 23 01:08 |
| MinceR | and sysvinit is not automount | Dec 23 01:08 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: guess what processes fstab | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | just because i use something with sysvinit does not turn that into a part of sysvinit | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | something the retards at redcrap should have learned | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | you can in fact run more than one piece of software on a computer! | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | pid1 does not have to do everything. | Dec 23 01:09 |
| MinceR | https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=104314 | Dec 23 01:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.raspberrypi.org | Raspberry Pi • View topic - Systemd Jessie errors [ http://ur1.ca/ocuaa ] | Dec 23 01:11 | |
| MinceR | https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html | Dec 23 01:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2015/02/msg00013.html ) | Dec 23 01:12 | |
| MinceR | apparently "technical merit" means "the software can not do what is allegedly its job" | Dec 23 01:12 |
| MinceR | with people "thinking" like that on the TC, it's no wonder debian is dead | Dec 23 01:13 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: "But are these problems specific to Raspbian? Because Debian 8 w/systemd on RPi2 seems to have no such problems and this was even when it was still testing and not stable" from that link | Dec 23 01:14 |
| oiaohm | Yes there are issues with systemd in low memory envornments. | Dec 23 01:14 |
| MinceR | ah yes, the usual "argument" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | "i've seen systemd not fuck up totally once, so it's perfect" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| oiaohm | That Is not what I said. | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | people like that should not be in charge of OSes that claim to have "stable" releases | Dec 23 01:15 |
| MinceR | "stable" does not mean "somebody saw it work once" | Dec 23 01:15 |
| cubexyz | just use the init you want | Dec 23 01:15 |
| oiaohm | This is your problem MinceR you keep on putting words in people month they have not said. | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | that's precisely the choice ratcrap is trying to take away | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, my problem is legions of fascists trying to fuck up my life even more | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | as if it wasn't bad enough already | Dec 23 01:16 |
| MinceR | millions of humans working hard at producing the perfect dystopia | Dec 23 01:17 |
| oiaohm | The reality is all the RPi2 do in fact run jessie without problem using systemd. The RPi1b with only 512 megs can have issues and the RPi1a with only 256 megs of memory it does not work right. | Dec 23 01:17 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically it information showing that systemd is a bit of a memory hog. | Dec 23 01:17 |
| cubexyz | ok, good point | Dec 23 01:17 |
| cubexyz | thanks oiaohm :) | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | a memory hog, a cpu hog, and an all-around train wreck | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | http://blind.guru/daemon-cpu.html | Dec 23 01:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blind.guru | I am sorry, but this looks insane | Dec 23 01:18 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: explain to me why an "init system" needs 512MB of RAM. | Dec 23 01:18 |
| MinceR | is it perhaps built on top of a web browser, like atom? | Dec 23 01:19 |
| cubexyz | btw, people have been using sysvinit since 1983 | Dec 23 01:19 |
| MinceR | or perhaps m$ sql? | Dec 23 01:19 |
| cubexyz | I should make a page of inits | Dec 23 01:20 |
| cubexyz | btw, when was fstab started? | Dec 23 01:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I can explain some of it by the ways you break sysvinit from starting on on 256meg RPi1a | Dec 23 01:22 |
| MinceR | i also wonder what's so difficult to understand about "universal" | Dec 23 01:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the easyest way is install a heavy logging server. | Dec 23 01:22 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no amount of explanation will do away with the fact that it in fact works on RPi1a | Dec 23 01:22 |
| cubexyz | ok, 4.1c BSD | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: sysvinit doesn't do logging, as it shouldn't | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | also, journald also doesn't belong in a "stable" OS | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | it's a pretty good demonstration of how not to do logging, though | Dec 23 01:23 |
| oiaohm | journald is a very complete information logging system. So its heavy logging and does cost memory. | Dec 23 01:23 |
| MinceR | did you read that off the official deadrat brochure? | Dec 23 01:24 |
| MinceR | it's binary, it's fragile, it melds coredumps into your logs, it doesn't even support log rotation | Dec 23 01:24 |
| cubexyz | btw original sys3 init doesn't use fstab | Dec 23 01:24 |
| MinceR | oh, and it comes with a webserver built in | Dec 23 01:25 |
| MinceR | because why the fuck wouldn't you want a webserver built into your logging daemon | Dec 23 01:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note even using journld with remote syslog as it does support its heavy. Remote syslog means it does not have to use binary logging files. | Dec 23 01:25 |
| MinceR | yeah, it's a pointless use case | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | it's only there as an excuse for forcing cancerd users to use journald for logging | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the binnary logs bad handling makes it worse. | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | probably so that NSA backdoors can remove the log entries they don't want you to see | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | before it can reach a reasonable log daemon | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Note I said I could explain breaking in 256 with good stuff. | Dec 23 01:26 |
| cubexyz | can't you just do the mounting stuff manually? | Dec 23 01:26 |
| cubexyz | what is the big deal? | Dec 23 01:26 |
| oiaohm | Breaking at 512 is really shows implementation issues MinceR | Dec 23 01:26 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: manually is not "modern" enough | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: also, it leaves the user too much control | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | we can't have that | Dec 23 01:27 |
| MinceR | poettering must be put in charge of deciding what gets mounted when | Dec 23 01:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: even using binary logging solutions that are not journd that are as complete as journald in inform record will work on 512 pi | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | just like a crApple product | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: binary logging is not a "solution", it's a problem. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so I 100 percent agree journald back end need a major rework. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | no, it doesn't need a rework | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | it needs to be killed with fire. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| oiaohm | Or killed in fire. | Dec 23 01:28 |
| MinceR | and the people who pushed it into the places it is, need to be removed from any positions of power | Dec 23 01:29 |
| cubexyz | I can run Unix in 256k :) | Dec 23 01:29 |
| MinceR | redrat does not deserve a second chance. | Dec 23 01:29 |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 23 01:30 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: problem here I come from a blender3d back ground. Blenders format file format is binary. Using blenders DNA fileformat would be more memory effective and more log rotation comadible than what journald uses. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so being binary here is not the only issue. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: being crappy design is truly a issue. | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | it would also be more failure prone | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | and it would also be more easily corrupted | Dec 23 01:31 |
| MinceR | and forcing coredumps into the "log" fills HDDs quickly, as many users have already found out | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Blender DNA format is more resistant to faults. | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Than using text | Dec 23 01:32 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | There are a lot of binary formats that are more resistant than text. | Dec 23 01:32 |
| oiaohm | Why checksum see broken part skip over. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | citation needed | Dec 23 01:33 |
| oiaohm | instead of with text see value 0 that is end of file. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | you do realize you can skip over broken parts in text files, right? | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | what. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | unix is not ms/dos | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | s,/,-, | Dec 23 01:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the thing is you know what is broken if the format has checksumed itself. | Dec 23 01:33 |
| MinceR | any format can be checksummed | Dec 23 01:34 |
| MinceR | there's par2, for example | Dec 23 01:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: I know any format can be checksumed. Issue here is default logging to textfiles normally do not bother. | Dec 23 01:35 |
| MinceR | still better than turning all logs into line noise | Dec 23 01:35 |
| MinceR | instead of a format you can easily see corruption in | Dec 23 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Being binary as other logging solution using binary show that if it correctly done you don't end up with mangled logs. | Dec 23 01:37 |
| oiaohm | journald binary logs eat logs is really unforgivable implementation fault. | Dec 23 01:37 |
| MinceR | pity deadrat is not in the "doing things correctly" business, then | Dec 23 01:37 |
| MinceR | and neither is debian, anymore | Dec 23 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Binary logs can have proper log rotation systems. | Dec 23 01:38 |
| MinceR | sure | Dec 23 01:38 |
| MinceR | journald doesn't have one, though | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | So journald not having proper log rotation systems is another fault. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Lack of proper log roation means if stuff goes wrong it worse. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| MinceR | it would be no problem if journald was an option | Dec 23 01:39 |
| MinceR | but it's forced on users | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Also lack of proper log rotation increase memory usage. | Dec 23 01:39 |
| oiaohm | Basically binary logging done properly should not upset users much. | Dec 23 01:40 |
| oiaohm | In fact should be more dependable than plain text logging without checksums. | Dec 23 01:41 |
| MinceR | plain text logging with checksums is even more dependable | Dec 23 01:41 |
| cubexyz | I grep my plain text logs all the time | Dec 23 01:41 |
| MinceR | sure, it's not as shiny and it's not as much like windows, but it actually works | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | people should really learn not to be distracted and enthralled by shiny crap | Dec 23 01:42 |
| oiaohm | plain text logging with checksums size wise is larger. Compared to properly implemented binary logging no extra dependablity. | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | it's sad people like that consider themselves intelligent | Dec 23 01:42 |
| MinceR | not if it doesn't include coredumps | Dec 23 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Main reason for text logging is easy direct text tool usage. | Dec 23 01:43 |
| MinceR | there are many good reasons for text logging | Dec 23 01:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: and there are good reasons for properly constructed binary logging. | Dec 23 01:45 |
| oiaohm | There is no good excuse for improperly constructed binary or text logging. | Dec 23 01:45 |
| MinceR | the main reason for binary logging is the principle of "dave cutler hates unix" | Dec 23 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging predates NT | Dec 23 01:46 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging was first done on commerical Unix systems. | Dec 23 01:46 |
| MinceR | you should have told dave cutler about that | Dec 23 01:46 |
| MinceR | maybe we wouldn't have journald now if you had | Dec 23 01:47 |
| oiaohm | No dave cutler own write up on NT history references unix binary logging for Windows logging design. | Dec 23 01:47 |
| oiaohm | Binary logging is a Unix thing unfortantly. | Dec 23 01:47 |
| MinceR | "Store data in flat text files." | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | yup, says right there to log in binary format | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | oh, wait | Dec 23 01:48 |
| cubexyz | apache doesn't | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | is this yet another case of "but sun already fucked up like this!"? | Dec 23 01:48 |
| MinceR | it's like fidesz writing their "constitution" | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | collecting the worst mistakes made by others | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | and then blaming those others for the mistake | Dec 23 01:49 |
| cubexyz | XFree86 was text logging | Dec 23 01:49 |
| MinceR | s | Dec 23 01:49 |
| cubexyz | mysqld is text logging | Dec 23 01:49 |
| cubexyz | messages? text | Dec 23 01:50 |
| cubexyz | secure? text | Dec 23 01:50 |
| cubexyz | prelink.log is text | Dec 23 01:51 |
| cubexyz | yum.log is text | Dec 23 01:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: particular mail servers you find binary logging. | Dec 23 01:51 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: these are unix world evil pre NT. | Dec 23 01:51 |
| MinceR | every program attempts to expand until it can send mail, except microsoft exchange | Dec 23 01:52 |
| cubexyz | pretty sure sendmail logs in text, although there could be some control chars in there | Dec 23 01:52 |
| cubexyz | oiaohm, my /var/log directory is full of text files | Dec 23 01:52 |
| MinceR | but oiaohm dug up one or two examples which should prove that binary logging is totally the unix thing | Dec 23 01:52 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 23 01:53 |
| cubexyz | ok, just going by what my server has | Dec 23 01:53 |
| cubexyz | btw I wrote a logger for a linux game | Dec 23 01:54 |
| cubexyz | and it does use text :) | Dec 23 01:54 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6921996 | Dec 23 01:54 |
| schestowitz | "Is there any number that makes sense universally to base a number system on?" | Dec 23 01:54 |
| oiaohm | http://dev.mysql.com/doc/refman/5.7/en/mysqlbinlog.html Some services have binary logging built in. | Dec 23 01:54 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/219570-what-are-prime-numbers-and-why-are-they-so-vital-to-modern-life "Modern encryption algorithms exploit the fact" | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> www.extremetech.com | What are prime numbers, and why are they so vital to modern life? | ExtremeTech [ http://ur1.ca/oct6m ] | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-dev.mysql.com | MySQL :: MySQL 5.7 Reference Manual :: 4.6.7 mysqlbinlog — Utility for Processing Binary Log Files [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc1 ] | Dec 23 01:55 | |
| MinceR | >some | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | mysqld.log is text | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | at least mine is | Dec 23 01:55 |
| cubexyz | wtmp is binary | Dec 23 01:56 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: the files text files you are read most likely were written by syslog including that mysqld.log. The implementation of syslog sets if those are text or not. | Dec 23 01:56 |
| cubexyz | I don't remember the format for that | Dec 23 01:56 |
| cubexyz | ok, well I'm glad mine is set for text mode | Dec 23 01:57 |
| cubexyz | I'll look at syslogd.conf | Dec 23 01:58 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| oiaohm | http://www.rsyslog.com/doc/v8-stable/tutorials/database.html The things you can do to syslog information is quite massive. | Dec 23 01:58 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.rsyslog.com | Writing syslog messages to MySQL, PostgreSQL or any other supported Database — rsyslog 8.14.0 documentation [ http://ur1.ca/ocuc9 ] | Dec 23 01:58 | |
| oiaohm | So yes rsyslog to database can equal no more text files in the /var/log directory. | Dec 23 01:59 |
| MinceR | and yet i still don't have to do it with rsyslog | Dec 23 01:59 |
| cubexyz | even Unix v7m logging was mainly text | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | it's a Unix thing | Dec 23 02:00 |
| MinceR | compare "i can do it my way" to "i can only do it poettering's way" | Dec 23 02:00 |
| MinceR | two different principles, two different OSes | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/unix-philosophy.txt | Dec 23 02:00 |
| cubexyz | "Store data in flat text files" | Dec 23 02:01 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: option of text logging is a Unix thing. So is the option to redirect syslog into what ever you wish to process it including binary. | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | yup | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | should be trivial to understand | Dec 23 02:01 |
| MinceR | and yet... | Dec 23 02:01 |
| oiaohm | Lot of the early syslogs include binary options. | Dec 23 02:03 |
| oiaohm | Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 23 02:03 |
| cubexyz | some data is probably better in binary format, but logging? | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | e.g. a graphical file would be better in binary | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | and of course video :) | Dec 23 02:04 |
| cubexyz | human readable log files are better | Dec 23 02:05 |
| oiaohm | There is a issue that makes journald explode and it not binary logging. | Dec 23 02:05 |
| cubexyz | you can compress the text file if you want to save space | Dec 23 02:05 |
| cubexyz | I don't see any problem | Dec 23 02:05 |
| oiaohm | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump | Dec 23 02:06 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Core_dump ) | Dec 23 02:06 | |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log or coredumps even using normal old syslogs is hazard. | Dec 23 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Dec 23 02:06 |
| oiaohm | Wishing to log all coredumps even using normal old syslog is hazard | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | 030400 < oiaohm> Journald does support forward to syslog item for text output. NT the differnce is no option of text output at all. | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | why do we have to have that bloated train wreck in the pipe? | Dec 23 02:07 |
| MinceR | especially one with unreadable code full of bugs? | Dec 23 02:08 |
| MinceR | do we have to give the NSA a way to mangle our logs? | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | in the olden days it would be teletypewriter output | Dec 23 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: most text logging in rotation has compression on rotated logs. | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | no way the NSA could corrupt that :) | Dec 23 02:08 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: yes space is why. | Dec 23 02:08 |
| cubexyz | very safe | Dec 23 02:09 |
| cubexyz | sure | Dec 23 02:09 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you never deployed rsyslog client wrapper on sysvinit. | Dec 23 02:09 |
| MinceR | i guess poettering has a 10TB RAID array just for log storage, so nobody should ever need to rotate logs anymore | Dec 23 02:10 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: did i ever need it? | Dec 23 02:10 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: journald wrapper makes sense to those who have had to individually add the wrappers in sysvinit. The wrappers are to prevent X application say to syslog that they are Y application so making your log information false. | Dec 23 02:11 |
| MinceR | yeah, because falsifying my logs is journald's job! | Dec 23 02:12 |
| oiaohm | To be correct the one part of journald that is correct is if you set it as a wrapper to a syslog. | Dec 23 02:12 |
| oiaohm | So they managed to get 1 thing right. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| oiaohm | And fairly much every other operational mode wrong. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| oiaohm | Including the default. | Dec 23 02:13 |
| MinceR | does that 1 thing need 512MB of RAM and an entire CPU core? | Dec 23 02:15 |
| oiaohm | Ram usage drops of journald drops a lot when you tell it not to binary log and just forwards to syslog solution of some form. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| oiaohm | Also it cpu consume drops massively. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| oiaohm | 90 percent of journald problem is it binary logging engine is complete crap. | Dec 23 02:16 |
| MinceR | crap design, crap implementation, forced on users | Dec 23 02:17 |
| MinceR | perfect combination | Dec 23 02:17 |
| oiaohm | The wrapper is good design for prevent false information entering log files. | Dec 23 02:18 |
| oiaohm | Just because you have 1 bit of good design does not mean you cannot screw up everything else. | Dec 23 02:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so not everything about systemd is bad design. | Dec 23 02:19 |
| MinceR | do you search the landfill for diamonds? | Dec 23 02:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: some automated recycling plants at landfill do search for diamonds jems and metals. | Dec 23 02:21 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you want to see systemd replaced you have understand what what they got right just as much as what they got wrong. | Dec 23 02:24 |
| MinceR | i don't want to see systemd replaced | Dec 23 02:26 |
| MinceR | but i also don't want to see anything replaced _by_ systemd | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | nice try, pretending that systemd came first | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | it's getting a bit old though | Dec 23 02:27 |
| oiaohm | The reality is systemd is already deployed and out there. | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | the reality is that unix and gnu/linux came first | Dec 23 02:27 |
| MinceR | and systemd tried to corrupt and destroy them later | Dec 23 02:27 |
| oiaohm | You will have resistance from those who see particular features useful and don't want to lose those features. | Dec 23 02:28 |
| MinceR | they can go and fuck themselves | Dec 23 02:28 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: don't complain when that happens to you then. | Dec 23 02:29 |
| oiaohm | The reality is development is based around what people need. | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | while they keep claiming all distros should be the same and they already had fedora, mageia, opensuse, arch, coreos, RHELl, SLES and ubuntu, they had to go and fuck up debian too | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | the reality is that people don't need cancerd | Dec 23 02:29 |
| oiaohm | Of course attempting to address those needs something results in crap being | Dec 23 02:29 |
| MinceR | and that development is based around whose microsoftian tricks succeed | Dec 23 02:30 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 23 02:30 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: as normally you disregard what others need. | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | oh, and they already had winblows, the design of which they admire so much | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: no, it's you and poettering who do that. | Dec 23 02:30 |
| cubexyz | with FOSS you can adapt things to your liking | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | cubexyz: until the fascists lock it down | Dec 23 02:30 |
| MinceR | then again, that won't be free anymore | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Windows eventlog does not pervent log forgoery either MinceR | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: duh | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | they can piss off, buy winblows and use it | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | most of the needs driving systemd have nothing todo with Windows. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | and enjoy how "modern" it is | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | So if they go to windows they don't have what they need. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | people loving crap design has nothing to do with winblows? | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | actually, they will | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: all you could to is tell them to go use solaris. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| oiaohm | Not windows. | Dec 23 02:31 |
| MinceR | they'll have unrelated bloated crap smashed together in one process | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have binary logging | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | Because windows does not have the required features. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have secret APIs and lock-in | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | binary logging is not the required feature. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have insecure unreliable unreadable crap code | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | they'll have tons of NSA backdoors | Dec 23 02:32 |
| oiaohm | pervention of log forgory as what is required to have servers for credit card processing is. | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | in other words, they'll have everything cancerd does | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and how does the black box known as journald prevent job forgery? | Dec 23 02:32 |
| MinceR | (hint: it doesn't) | Dec 23 02:33 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: in fact it does you stubmon idiot. | Dec 23 02:33 |
| oiaohm | It meets the banking requirements. | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | how does a huge hairball of unreadable, undocumented, badly written, badly designed code prevent job forgery, you idiot? | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | then the banks have shitty requirements | Dec 23 02:33 |
| MinceR | have they audited cancerd? | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | journald with binary logging on fails. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | journald forwarding to syslog passes. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | and syslogs along fail. | Dec 23 02:34 |
| oiaohm | Using syslog and sysvinit means altering all the init scripts to be client wrapped. | Dec 23 02:35 |
| MinceR | again, who has audited cancerd? | Dec 23 02:35 |
| MinceR | if nobody has audited cancerd, how do you know it won't forge log entries passing through it? | Dec 23 02:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: sorry to say journald is audited only for 1 mode. Logging in credit card processing is required to be in a independant server. | Dec 23 02:39 |
| MinceR | i wonder how that hairball could possibly pass any audit | Dec 23 02:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes audited for the 1 mode general users don't use. | Dec 23 02:40 |
| MinceR | "yet another null pointer dereference. ah well, who gives a fuck" | Dec 23 02:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: bank standard if the complete thing crashes it still passes. Invalid information is failure. | Dec 23 02:46 |
| MinceR | security holes can not only cause crashes | Dec 23 02:47 |
| MinceR | they can also cause data to be corrupted | Dec 23 02:47 |
| oiaohm | All the audited null point errors in systemd cause death. Banking automatic drops incomplete information. | Dec 23 02:48 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so yes different standard to what you and I would normally call acceptable. | Dec 23 02:48 |
| MinceR | have they audited the web server built into journald for remotely exploitable security holes? | Dec 23 02:48 |
| MinceR | nobody would exploit that, right? :> | Dec 23 02:49 |
| oiaohm | http://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd-journal-gatewayd.service.html | Dec 23 02:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.freedesktop.org | systemd-journal-gatewayd.service | Dec 23 02:49 | |
| oiaohm | You mean this MinceR? | Dec 23 02:49 |
| MinceR | yes, that | Dec 23 02:49 |
| oiaohm | If that on in the banking system you are in trouble. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | indeed | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | Features like that can be turned off individually. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | if you have cancerd, winblows or OSuX in a banking system, you're in trouble | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | could poettering conceive of somebody wanting to turn that feature off? | Dec 23 02:50 |
| MinceR | usually he can't | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | That gatewayd service is a indenpedepend binary to the main journald binary. | Dec 23 02:50 |
| oiaohm | So yes you can delete it. | Dec 23 02:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: banking systemd is a lot smaller than general systemd after all the non audited parts are deleted. | Dec 23 02:51 |
| MinceR | if somebody finds a vulnerability in cancerd, will that "bank" retain the known broken version or update to the new one with the new holes? | Dec 23 02:51 |
| MinceR | or will they try to backport the fix in the undocumented hairball themselves? | Dec 23 02:52 |
| MinceR | looks like they're really looking for trouble to me | Dec 23 02:52 |
| MinceR | i wonder if that "bank" has more software engineers than redhat (that is, >0) | Dec 23 02:53 |
| oiaohm | Its guys who work for banks who are talking about break up systemd pid1 | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | (it only takes 1 to say "this horrible maldesigned mess will never work"...) | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | have they heard of unix? | Dec 23 02:53 |
| MinceR | less work, better results | Dec 23 02:54 |
| oiaohm | The problem here the software engineers at banks are not saying that systemd cannot be fixed. | Dec 23 02:54 |
| oiaohm | They instead point to a stack of areas that need to be rewritten. | Dec 23 02:54 |
| MinceR | i point of a stack of areas that need to be rewritten: 1.) all of the design 2.) all of the code | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | Not all the design. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | There are bits that are right. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| MinceR | it gets failing grade, go back to the drawing board | Dec 23 02:55 |
| oiaohm | I would say about 10 percent is correct. | Dec 23 02:55 |
| MinceR | yeah, the bits are correct, they're just in the wrong order | Dec 23 02:55 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Dec 23 02:55 | |
| MinceR | and there's too many of them | Dec 23 02:56 |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 02:57 | |
| oiaohm | Even sections of systemd code are correct. | Dec 23 02:57 |
| oiaohm | Problem here systemd lack of QA processes and lack of time spent design features before implemetning will result in a lot needing to be rebuilt. | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | yes, the empty rows are correct | Dec 23 02:58 |
| oiaohm | No I meant section of functional code is correct in places. | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | lack of clue resulted in that | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | and none of it would be a problem if it wasn't forced on users | Dec 23 02:58 |
| amarsh04 | I don't like it when one gets silence from the Debian maintainer of udev about how to further debug a reported problem | Dec 23 02:58 |
| MinceR | yet another atrocious piece of software being an _option_ is not an issue | Dec 23 02:59 |
| oiaohm | Its like the wrapper section of journald | Dec 23 02:59 |
| amarsh04 | and there don't exist much in the way of documentation on debugging | Dec 23 02:59 |
| amarsh04 | doesn't exist | Dec 23 02:59 |
| MinceR | destroying a stable, reliable OS for the sake of denying choice to users is the issue | Dec 23 02:59 |
| MinceR | even though they already had several distros to choose from if they wanted cancerd by default | Dec 23 03:00 |
| MinceR | (and one of their fundamental principles is "choice is bad", so that should be more than enough) | Dec 23 03:00 |
| amarsh04 | I was able to find which version of udev introduced the bug and reported it, but had no assistance on further debugging | Dec 23 03:00 |
| MinceR | only the Chosen at redhat are allowed to have that knowledge | Dec 23 03:01 |
| amarsh04 | fortunately the bug (detecting file system of a mobile handset connecting via usb as a mass storage device) was incidentally fixed with a later update | Dec 23 03:01 |
| amarsh04 | being able to use alternatives keeps the interfaces better documented and understood, and helps debugging | Dec 23 03:02 |
| MinceR | but documented and understood interfaces are not "modern" | Dec 23 03:03 |
| MinceR | apparently | Dec 23 03:03 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: udev lack of good documentation was a problem before systemd | Dec 23 03:16 |
| MinceR | and has since been compounded by udev being assimilated by systemd | Dec 23 03:16 |
| oiaohm | Systemd is mostly all the underdocumented and undermaintained projects shoved in one project | Dec 23 03:17 |
| MinceR | they went from "our small project has no good documentation" to "our ginormous project has no documentation and we have no motivation to change this" | Dec 23 03:17 |
| oiaohm | The idea behind making it 1 ginormous project is to make it large enough that the lack of documetnation and so on could not be just ingnored over that is only udev....... | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | and yet it's just ignored | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | and it comes in handy for them as it makes users more dependant on redhat | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | so they have to buy support contracts | Dec 23 03:20 |
| oiaohm | In fact systemd documentation of stuff has reduced how much is undocumented. | Dec 23 03:20 |
| oiaohm | Even so there is still a lot still needed. | Dec 23 03:20 |
| MinceR | so why do most functions have not a single comment in them?\ | Dec 23 03:21 |
| MinceR | s/.$// | Dec 23 03:21 |
| oiaohm | Most of the imported projects were comment free. | Dec 23 03:21 |
| MinceR | a great tradition that also happens to be "modern" | Dec 23 03:22 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the problem with all the project that have been merged into the place spreed all over the fact that all those projects lacked QA and documentation was being ingored. | Dec 23 03:31 |
| oiaohm | The one good thing about people being upset about systemd is that they are not be ingored any more. | Dec 23 03:31 |
| MinceR | yeah, right | Dec 23 03:31 |
| MinceR | now that they have even more leverage and they've killed off some competing projects, they have motivation to unfuck things | Dec 23 03:32 |
| MinceR | it worked out that way for microsoft too, right? | Dec 23 03:32 |
| oiaohm | Those competing projects were under QA and underdocuments and complete ingored they were in that state. | Dec 23 03:32 |
| MinceR | they used to compete | Dec 23 03:32 |
| MinceR | now you get a big blob and don't get to change anything about it | Dec 23 03:33 |
| oiaohm | Compete really. | Dec 23 03:33 |
| oiaohm | Lack of developers and updates as well. | Dec 23 03:33 |
| MinceR | and again, you could get this state of matters AND MORE if you just bought winblows, used it, and left debian be | Dec 23 03:33 |
| MinceR | there was no need to demolish the bazaar because you already had the cathedral you wanted | Dec 23 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: again you are missing it. Lot of those under maintained projects were costing Debian time and resources maintaining out of tree patches. | Dec 23 03:41 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: so Debian was not being left unaffected by unmaintained projects. | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | finally, debian can spare all that time and all those resources | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | by taking the fedora installer iso, and changing the name and the logo! | Dec 23 03:42 |
| MinceR | it's an insignificant loss that from a free, stable, universal OS they've gone to a nonfree, unstable OS that only serves poettering's multihead desktop PC use case | Dec 23 03:43 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: out of tree patches with the upstream updating without them and not accepting does cost a lot of time. | Dec 23 03:43 |
| MinceR | good thing their new upstream is _so_ accepting of patches | Dec 23 03:43 |
| oiaohm | systemd upstream now accept more patchs from debian maintainers that the split packages before did. | Dec 23 03:44 |
| MinceR | it's easier now that the debian "maintainers" do systemd upstream's bidding | Dec 23 03:44 |
| oiaohm | No | Dec 23 03:44 |
| MinceR | after they've turned their backs on their users | Dec 23 03:45 |
| oiaohm | In fact debian maintainers get systemd upstream to change things. | Dec 23 03:45 |
| MinceR | they won't change systemd as much as systemd changed debian | Dec 23 03:45 |
| oiaohm | Like you forget systemd was never going to support seperated /usr directly. | Dec 23 03:45 |
| MinceR | i'm extremely concerned about whether redhat's windows clone was going to support separated /usr | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | because all my wish was to run redhat's windows clone | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | and yet strangely i still wanted to make choices independently of poettering | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | right? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | Stop calling it a Windows clone. | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | why stop calling a windows clone a windows clone? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | The structure map matches solaris not Windows. | Dec 23 03:46 |
| MinceR | does slowlaris have a broken GUI that only supports client-side decorations? | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | A bad copy of solaris | Dec 23 03:46 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: client side decorations that is not in fact windows. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| MinceR | is slowlaris as broken as cancerd? | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Note I said bad copy. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | In otherwords systemd is more broken than the SMF and other bits solaris uses todo the same thing. | Dec 23 03:47 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: windows put windows decorations in kernel space. | Dec 23 03:48 |
| MinceR | i'm awaiting kmutter with bated breath | Dec 23 03:48 |
| MinceR | afaik slowlaris didn't break all the things cancerd and winblows broke | Dec 23 03:49 |
| MinceR | also, is there kdbus in slowlaris? | Dec 23 03:49 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: winblows also put the GUI toolkit in the kernel. | Dec 23 03:49 |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 23 10:23:14 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 23 10:28:30 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 23 10:28 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 23 10:28 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 23 10:28 | |
| schestowitz | http://mediamatters.org/blog/2015/12/22/mark-levin-attacks-wall-street-journal-editoria/207682 | Dec 23 10:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-mediamatters.org | Mark Levin Attacks Wall Street Journal Editorial Highlighting The Uncompromising Conservative Media Standard For GOP Candidates | Blog | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvq ] | Dec 23 10:56 | |
| schestowitz | "When we started building Mono back in 2001, we wanted to get something up and running very quickly. The idea was to have enough of a system running on Linux that we could have a fully self-hosting C# environment in a short period of time, and we managed to do this within eight months. " | Dec 23 10:56 |
| schestowitz | oops, wrong url | Dec 23 10:56 |
| schestowitz | http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2015/Dec-22.html | Dec 23 10:56 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-tirania.org | Mono's Cooperative Mode for SGen GC - Miguel de Icaza [ http://ur1.ca/ocuvr ] | Dec 23 10:56 | |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926355 | Dec 23 11:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: Watch what #intel and #microsoft are doing with "national security" (back door) boot in #uefi https://nwrickert2.wordpress.com/2015/12/22/uefi-and-opensuse-leap-42-1/ http://techrights.org/wiki/index.php/UEFI | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> nwrickert2.wordpress.com | UEFI and opensuse Leap 42.1 | Thoughts on computing | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> techrights.org | UEFI - Techrights | Dec 23 11:11 | |
| *Anonymous (5fd73e40@gateway/web/freenode/ip.95.215.62.64) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 11:28 | |
| *Anonymous is now known as Guest58361 | Dec 23 11:28 | |
| *Guest58361 has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) | Dec 23 11:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679626569808130048 | Dec 23 11:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy I guess Cisco could always claim they were hacked. | Dec 23 11:37 | |
| schestowitz | That's what they usually say | Dec 23 11:37 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/angrymofo/status/679627024881840129 | Dec 23 11:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@angrymofo: @schestowitz MHz for MHz and GB for GB nothing beats raw metal if you can afford to buy it up front. | Dec 23 11:39 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679630862820839425 | Dec 23 12:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy My understanding was that it was performed after the product left cisco. | Dec 23 12:03 | |
| schestowitz | That's the beacon thing, separate (and worse) thing | Dec 23 12:03 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679631071135182848 | Dec 23 12:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong or misinformed. Not even the first time today. :D | Dec 23 12:04 | |
| schestowitz | The Cisco PR strategy a few months ago was to paint it all as intervention by NSA >outside< of #cisco | Dec 23 12:04 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/scruffy_crunch/status/679634534866894848 | Dec 23 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@scruffy_crunch: @schestowitz @All4Privacy Thank you for clearing that up for me. | Dec 23 12:19 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has left #techrights | Dec 23 12:34 | |
| MinceR | oiaohm: it would be pretty horrible if we were forced to run wine | Dec 23 13:23 |
| cubexyz | I run wine occasionally for the odd game | Dec 23 13:24 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: to particular things I am forced to. | Dec 23 13:28 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 23 17:34 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Dec 23 17:34:31 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Dec 23 17:34:54 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 23 17:34 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 23 17:34 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 23 17:34 | |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 18:05 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/agente_smithe/status/679721414052737025 | Dec 23 19:00 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@agente_smithe: @schestowitz Hi there and Merry Xmas, Dr. Roy. About your talk with RMS, regarding Red Rat & MS, how things evolved ? If they evolved. | Dec 23 19:00 | |
| schestowitz | no change... | Dec 23 19:00 |
| schestowitz | jgay: any update? | Dec 23 19:00 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 23 20:31 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 23 20:32 | |
| MinceR | https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CW5RizmWQAAAl3F.png | Dec 23 23:00 |
| *jgay has quit (Quit: Happy Hacking. Goodbye.) | Dec 23 23:17 | |
| cubexyz | I don't think anyone is removing buffer length checks | Dec 23 23:47 |
| *siel (~siel@unaffiliated/motley) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 00:05 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 24 01:26 | |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 24 01:36 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp14-2-10-81.lns21.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 01:59 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 24 10:54 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 10:54:49 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 10:55:12 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 24 10:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 24 10:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 24 10:55 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 24 11:49 | |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450896537025#c1574256729623240792 | Dec 24 13:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters | Dec 24 13:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | 2016 budget | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Board of Appeal planned to decrease in budgeted size by over 1%. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | President's Office planned to increase in budgeted size by nearly 20%. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | What more need be said? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450898317581#c7071748749463986149 | Dec 24 13:47 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzc ] | Dec 24 13:47 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Will HR be equally self-financing? And, if so, how? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Not even DG1 is self-financed. Searches cost money, examinations cost money, oppositions cost money, appeals cost money. DG0/2/4/5 cost money. The AC costs money. It's all funded by renewal fees. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Missing members - 18 now but how many after end of year retirements? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | According to this post, there will be 27 missing members at the end of this year. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | There can't be anybody ready beyond personal nomination by him? | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Yep. It is almost surprising that it has not happened earlier. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | Regarding "how is he going to do that", I was mainly wondering how he is going to decide what the new proposal will contain if the AC has taken the task of drafting the proposal out of his hands. But the exact situation at the moment is not clear to me. If the recent interview is anything to go by, we're simply back to March this year... BB gets another try but this time without a user survey, so without the need to misrepresent input from | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | users. | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:47 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450907943032#c9104676679831085546 | Dec 24 13:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzg ] | Dec 24 13:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | How could the EPO even enforce the ban on a new work? This he would have to do under the national law of themember state where I would want to work, as only those courts apply to me then. And these court cases arenearly always lost, thus the employee may do the desired work. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | I see more an issue finding sn employer who is willing to take the risk, as he could influence a proceeding revoking them their representative status, or as suggested above by Cynic.. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, he should then also prevent any external ones from applying for posts at the BoA, as their previous colleagues could try to influence case in their client's favour. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | - one of those EPO examiners. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2015/12/rumours-from-ac-and-four-remarkable.html?showComment=1450942427785#c3900027317862986665 | Dec 24 13:49 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-ipkitten.blogspot.com | The IPKat: Rumours from the AC, and four remarkable letters [ http://ur1.ca/ocwzh ] | Dec 24 13:49 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | @ one of those epo examiners. How? The same way the investigations into the suicides were stopped: by not paying the pensions. That is, even though illegal, a mighty good weapon in view of the fact that it takes 14 years to gain your case. | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | Sadcat | Dec 24 13:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 24 13:49 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 24 18:55 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 18:55:22 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 18:55:46 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 24 18:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 24 18:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 24 18:55 | |
| DaemonFC | There's going to be a day of reckoning. | Dec 24 18:56 |
| DaemonFC | I saw an article about "9 things you didn't know there was a shortage of". Of course, coffee and chocolate will not be a huge concern when food shortages leave shelves bare and food inflation is in the triple digits for what they do have. | Dec 24 18:57 |
| *Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). | Dec 24 21:12 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 21:12:24 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 21:12:48 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 24 21:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 24 21:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 24 21:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/kstallett/status/680141456531664896 | Dec 24 21:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@kstallett: @schestowitz Finally ended my apple connection today with the selling of my iPhone. Can't see myself going back, just getting worse. | Dec 24 21:48 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). | Dec 24 23:20 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 23:20:27 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 24 23:20:51 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 24 23:20 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 24 23:20 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 24 23:20 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection reset by peer). | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 01:55:23 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 01:55:50 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| *[freenode-info] help freenode weed out clonebots -- please register your IRC nick and auto-identify: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup | Dec 25 01:55 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 03:23 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest57955 | Dec 25 03:23 | |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 25 11:07 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 11:07:29 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 25 11:07:53 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 25 11:07 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 25 11:07 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 25 11:07 | |
| schestowitz | just woke up | Dec 25 12:09 |
| schestowitz | midday | Dec 25 12:09 |
| schestowitz | cubexyz: didn't know it was warm in n america too this year | Dec 25 12:10 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/MariusNestor/status/680208581598253056 | Dec 25 12:11 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@MariusNestor: @schestowitz Have you decided what to use next? I've just switched to GNOME, again :)) from Cinnamon. | Dec 25 12:11 | |
| schestowitz | KDE3 is not simple to move to anymore (and systemd is not helping), so unsure what would have functional parity, still need to think/test | Dec 25 12:11 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 12:15 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Not a Diaspora post? | Dec 25 12:15 | |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | Tis the season for bad laws, | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | fa la-la, la-la, la la-la, la. | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 25 12:15 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6927302 | Dec 25 12:16 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/6926327 | Dec 25 12:18 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: "Fox 'News' has a long history of promoting sexism on-air" http://mediamatters.org/research/2015/12/22/fox-ne #newscorp | Dec 25 12:18 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights--> mediamatters.org | Fox News' 10 Most Cringe-Worthy Sexist Moments Of 2015 | Research | Media Matters for America [ http://ur1.ca/ocyed ] | Dec 25 12:18 | |
| schestowitz | "A sandwich shop close to work put in a TV and had Fox News running on it. The show featured half a dozen attractive women sitting on a stage talking about a “study” that concluded men could assemble furniture faster than women. Everywhere you go, there’s a TV pouring out corporate distraction and bullshit." | Dec 25 12:18 |
| schestowitz | Reinforcing the patriarchy, to brainwash women too... | Dec 25 12:18 |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 12:28 | |
| oiaohm | This kinda shows how security stuff just gets pushed back http://www.eweek.com/security/companies-get-two-year-reprieve-in-being-fully-pci-dss-compliant.html | Dec 25 12:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.eweek.com | PCI DSS Dials Back on SSL/TLS 1.1 Requirement | Dec 25 12:30 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/recuweb/status/680370193747423232 | Dec 25 13:19 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@recuweb: @schestowitz It’s almost always harder toraiseCapital than you thought it would be, and it always takes longer. So plan for that. | Dec 25 13:19 | |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: yea, seen that | Dec 25 13:29 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: security comes second, apparently | Dec 25 13:29 |
| schestowitz | after "national security" | Dec 25 13:29 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 13:41 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 13:43 | |
| cubexyz | try q4os with trinity | Dec 25 14:07 |
| *scientes (~Shawn@unaffiliated/scientes) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:12 | |
| schestowitz | what will happen to the settings of my qt5 applications? | Dec 25 14:13 |
| schestowitz | like kate? | Dec 25 14:13 |
| cubexyz | I think trinity uses qt3 and qt4 | Dec 25 14:14 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 14:15 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-kate.png | Dec 25 14:18 |
| cubexyz | so there is kate, but I think it's mostly like KDE 3.5.10 kate with a few updates | Dec 25 14:18 |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:29 | |
| schestowitz | I still like some KDE applications | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | I just don't want the whole plasma BS | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | I can run kde apps under another environment | Dec 25 14:41 |
| schestowitz | need klipper and a few other kde tools | Dec 25 14:41 |
| *wEs84 (~WeS@unaffiliated/wessbrown84) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 14:53 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Zeipt/status/680403861929066496 | Dec 25 15:08 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Zeipt: I hope for such decision in @debian too. https://t.co/IldpnRZKXm | Dec 25 15:08 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: Software packaged in Fedora should not be allowed to implement DRM schemes that cannot be disabled https://t.co/GJ8ODOqOtr #mozilla #firefox | Dec 25 15:08 | |
| cubexyz | one can use klipper with other window managers | Dec 25 15:33 |
| cubexyz | e.g. icewm + klipper + some gnome stuff + some other KDE stuff | Dec 25 15:34 |
| schestowitz | https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3xurro/remember_when_computer_magazines_used_to/ | Dec 25 15:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.reddit.com | Remember when computer magazines used to encourage you to learn, program and create, rather than just tell you what products to buy? We do, so 3 years ago we started a magazine like that, in Finnish. Now we'd like to bring it to you in English, as well. : linux | Dec 25 15:37 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/matthewstinar/status/680410575868944384 | Dec 25 16:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@matthewstinar: @schestowitz This one goes on my list of things that shouldn't need to be said. | Dec 25 16:05 | |
| MinceR | one can also use ClipIt instead of klipper | Dec 25 16:09 |
| cubexyz | sure... xfce has clipman | Dec 25 16:10 |
| cubexyz | choice is good | Dec 25 16:10 |
| schestowitz | http://nicholaswilson.com/fairheads-corrupt-appointment-to-bbc/ | Dec 25 16:10 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-nicholaswilson.com | Fairhead’s corrupt appointment to BBC | Mr Ethical | Dec 25 16:10 | |
| *sebsebseb (~unitytrye@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:25 | |
| sebsebseb | hi | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 16:25 |
| sebsebseb | wheover else may be here | Dec 25 16:25 |
| schestowitz | cheers | Dec 25 16:26 |
| schestowitz | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 16:27 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/merry-newtonmass.jpg | Dec 25 16:27 |
| MinceR | merry grav-mass | Dec 25 16:28 |
| cubexyz | 1642 | Dec 25 16:31 |
| sebsebseb | grav mass oh?? | Dec 25 16:37 |
| sebsebseb | why you caling it that | Dec 25 16:37 |
| cubexyz | some say netwonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 16:38 |
| cubexyz | ugh | Dec 25 16:38 |
| cubexyz | some say newtonmass, some say grav-mass | Dec 25 16:38 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 16:57 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 16:58 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 17:07 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest35438 | Dec 25 17:07 | |
| *Guest35438 has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) | Dec 25 17:21 | |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: https://stallman.org/grav-mass.html | Dec 25 17:24 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-stallman.org | Celebrate Grav-Mass | Dec 25 17:24 | |
| schestowitz | wtf? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | is sddm systemd dm? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I was just asked, when installing gnome, if I want gdm and sddm | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | Which I guess is that crappy thing which *buntu now uses | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | is this a systemd thing? | Dec 25 17:47 |
| schestowitz | I am trying to quit kde for the first time in 16 years | Dec 25 17:51 |
| MinceR | dunno, i've never heard of sddm before | Dec 25 17:51 |
| schestowitz | I've basically had enough | Dec 25 17:51 |
| schestowitz | they add new bugs quicker than they remove existing ones | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | if I click a link in konversion it now freezed for almost a minute | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | !google linux sddm | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [1] - SDDM - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/SDDM | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [2] - Display manager - ArchWiki | https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_manager | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [3] - Simple Desktop Display Manager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Desktop_Display_Manager | Dec 25 17:52 |
| TechrightsBot-tr | [4] - Display Managers In Plasma 5 | David Edmundson's Web Log | http://blog.davidedmundson.co.uk/blog/display_managers_finale | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | OK, so not a systemd thing | Dec 25 17:52 |
| MinceR | ah, waylandows thing | Dec 25 17:52 |
| schestowitz | ewww | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | though x11 also | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | waylenndows | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | grasslin loves it | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | at least grasslin has enough clue to recognize that CSD sucks | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | also a redhat thing, with intel(lligence agencies) | Dec 25 17:53 |
| MinceR | unlike most of the waylandows fans | Dec 25 17:53 |
| schestowitz | much like systemd and uefi/shim | Dec 25 17:54 |
| MinceR | apparently sddm comes partly from kde and lxqt people | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | I wish I could go back 5 years for proper distros | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | vista 10 shows even windows is being broken | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | more than ever, now a crappy keylogger | Dec 25 17:54 |
| schestowitz | and we too, led by red hat, seem to be subjected to masochism | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | now gnome is installing loads of games | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | why are they part of the base, I just want the shell thing | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | nmap | Dec 25 17:55 |
| schestowitz | odd, gnome now comes with nmap in the metapackage gnome | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | what gnome application needs nmap? | Dec 25 17:56 |
| XFaCE | schestowitz: switch to xfce? | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Too late, unless gnome sucks too | Dec 25 17:56 |
| MinceR | gnome has sucked since 2.x | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | I tried enlightenment, but it doesn't do a good enough job detecting and configuring my screens | Dec 25 17:56 |
| schestowitz | at least gnome is likely to do a decent enough job detecting external laptop dsplay/s | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | rianne has xfce installed | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | *ugly | Dec 25 17:57 |
| schestowitz | I wished dpkg had some progress indicator based on the number of packages left to process | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: what are you using as a DE? | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | And does it sit on top of a Lennix base? | Dec 25 17:58 |
| schestowitz | I made a huge mistake in April, I was hoping it would get better, got all the updates, backports, whatever | Dec 25 17:58 |
| MinceR | xfce and lxde and no | Dec 25 17:58 |
| XRevan86 | MATE, Cinnamon | Dec 25 17:58 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:23]<schestowitz> but it looks rather uf | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | [12:57:27]<schestowitz> *ugly | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | well that's the default | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | a quick theme change and stuff fixes that easily | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | dedoimedo has a lot of tutorials for xfce for that issue | Dec 25 17:59 |
| schestowitz | even with customisation you couldn't get the same visual effects | Dec 25 17:59 |
| MinceR | i don't need visual effects | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | compiz if needed | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: One can use Compiz with Xfce. | Dec 25 17:59 |
| schestowitz | I just need something I can work on | Dec 25 17:59 |
| XFaCE | xfce fits that bill | Dec 25 18:00 |
| schestowitz | recently I cannot even use many applications in parallel, too slow and too laggy | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | it lacks the unnecessary fluff of other DEs | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | and has a more sane release cycle | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: MATE fluffiness? :) | Dec 25 18:00 |
| XFaCE | mate is odl | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | *old | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | old tech | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | a stopgap | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XFaCE | same reason I don't use Trinity | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: That's some logic. | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | MATE supports Gtk2 and Gtk3, a matter of choice. | Dec 25 18:01 |
| schestowitz | pidgin now takes about 10 secs to start up | Dec 25 18:01 |
| schestowitz | vlc sometimes more | Dec 25 18:01 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: While Xfce is stopgapping on Gtk2, right? %) | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XFaCE | nope | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XFaCE | they already are transitioning to gtk3 | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | something here is terrible broken and I'm not sure if it's kde or systemd, but I know kde embraces systemd | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: So what's so old-techy in MATE? | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | Maybe kf5 could be sane if it didn't have to deal with this underlying overhaul | Dec 25 18:02 |
| XRevan86 | I understand Trinity but MATE… ? | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | when I adopted kf5 it didn't even properly deal with notifications and event sounds | Dec 25 18:02 |
| schestowitz | df | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | oops | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | Errors were encountered while processing: | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | /var/cache/apt/archives/account-plugin-google_0.12+15.10.20150723-0ubuntu1_all.deb | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | meh | Dec 25 18:03 |
| schestowitz | wouldn't be so amusing if my system stopped booting on xmas day | Dec 25 18:04 |
| schestowitz | Setting up gir1.2-ibus-1.0:i386 (1.5.10-1ubuntu1) ... | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | ? | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | looks like "girl" | Dec 25 18:05 |
| schestowitz | gtk-ir-1? | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: gir == gobject introspection repostory | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | repository | Dec 25 18:05 |
| XRevan86 | GObject universal bindings. | Dec 25 18:06 |
| XRevan86 | One gir1.2-ibus-1.0 makes ibus development stuff available for all gobject introspection supported languages like python, lua, perl. | Dec 25 18:07 |
| schestowitz | thanks, this isn't a good afternoon so far, kde won't let me work in peace | Dec 25 18:07 |
| schestowitz | been 8 months, not seeing improvement that merits optimism | Dec 25 18:08 |
| schestowitz | Processing triggers for systemd (225-1ubuntu9) ... | Dec 25 18:08 |
| schestowitz | grr | Dec 25 18:08 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Welcome to Ubuntu. | Dec 25 18:08 |
| schestowitz | brb, trying something... | Dec 25 18:09 |
| XRevan86 | 15.04 | Dec 25 18:09 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 18:11 | |
| *schestowitz_log has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer) | Dec 25 18:11 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: oh Roy not here, well KDE dropped KDM, sddm replaces it | Dec 25 18:29 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 25 18:32 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: LXDE also died, razorQT replaces that | Dec 25 18:34 |
| cubexyz | there's trinity kdm | Dec 25 18:34 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Trinity is a KDE 3 fork | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | and hardly any distros provide it offically | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | if any actually | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | got to use unoffical packages from them | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | tried that once before in Mageia, didn't really work so well | Dec 25 18:35 |
| cubexyz | q4os uses it, I've got it on one computer | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | they have something based on Ubuntu I think though or DEbian for Trinty as a LIve CD etc though | Dec 25 18:35 |
| sebsebseb | what's g4os? | Dec 25 18:35 |
| cubexyz | q4os | Dec 25 18:35 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: you mean lxqt | Dec 25 18:36 |
| cubexyz | http://cubexyz.blogspot.ca/search?q=q4os | Dec 25 18:37 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-cubexyz.blogspot.ca | Notes on Linux | Dec 25 18:37 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yeah lxqt not LXDE | Dec 25 18:37 |
| cubexyz | also Exe Linux has it | Dec 25 18:38 |
| cubexyz | haven't tried Exe though | Dec 25 18:38 |
| cubexyz | http://exegnulinux.net | Dec 25 18:39 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-exegnulinux.net | Exe GNU/Linux - Debian GNU/Linux with a Devon flavour from Exmouth | Dec 25 18:39 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: q40s maybe I hae heard of that before or not, exe gnulinux no wya | Dec 25 18:39 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: unknown distros have TRinity by default then | Dec 25 18:40 |
| sebsebseb | anything known enough nope | Dec 25 18:40 |
| cubexyz | nope what? | Dec 25 18:42 |
| sebsebseb | any distros that are known enough dont have Trinity! | Dec 25 18:42 |
| cubexyz | so? | Dec 25 18:42 |
| cubexyz | if you have never used it your opinion doesn't really count does it? | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | most KDE users have moved on to KDE 4, and soon KDE 5 too | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I treid to install it | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | into Magiea once but got issues | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | also I Think I did try a LIve session of TRintiy before | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | based on Debian or whatever | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | or based on Ubuntu | Dec 25 18:43 |
| cubexyz | I had zero problems using q4os | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: at one stage I was quite interestd in running Trinity possibly | Dec 25 18:43 |
| sebsebseb | ,but in a distro such as Mageia | Dec 25 18:44 |
| sebsebseb | or maybe UBuntu | Dec 25 18:44 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: does q4os come with Trinity by deffault? | Dec 25 18:45 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 18:45 |
| cubexyz | install and done | Dec 25 18:45 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-kalzium-2015.png | Dec 25 18:46 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 18:46 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 18:47 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/q4os-trinity-2015.png | Dec 25 18:47 |
| cubexyz | that pic is probably better | Dec 25 18:47 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: uh your screenshot is KDE 4.8 ? | Dec 25 18:47 |
| cubexyz | it's not, that's just kalzium | Dec 25 18:48 |
| cubexyz | there's some qt4 stuff in q4os | Dec 25 18:48 |
| sebsebseb | hmm so it can run KDE 4 stuff | Dec 25 18:48 |
| sebsebseb | as well? | Dec 25 18:48 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 18:48 |
| sebsebseb | and you can hve both even, say the KDE 3 version of Konversation and the KDE 4 one for example? | Dec 25 18:48 |
| cubexyz | not sure about that | Dec 25 18:49 |
| *sebsebseb this lap top still isn't quite set up I wanted it since.... | Dec 25 18:49 | |
| sebsebseb | well the UEFI for a start in WIndows 10 | Dec 25 18:49 |
| sebsebseb | I can't actsaully | Dec 25 18:49 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 18:49 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 18:49 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 18:49 | |
| sebsebseb | well I don't know how to make Grub come up first on it | Dec 25 18:49 |
| schestowitz | didn't even startx | Dec 25 18:49 |
| sebsebseb | I tried something that could mabye do it , but didn't get far | Dec 25 18:49 |
| schestowitz | bloody thing | Dec 25 18:49 |
| schestowitz | I now have to start it manually | Dec 25 18:49 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: you missed my resposne earlier, but KDE dropped KDM, sddm replaces it | Dec 25 18:49 |
| sebsebseb | raqorQT replaces LXDE to | Dec 25 18:50 |
| schestowitz | thanks | Dec 25 18:50 |
| cubexyz | let me try loading it | Dec 25 18:50 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: thanks to me? | Dec 25 18:50 |
| schestowitz | I'm on gnome3 at the moment, on tty1 | Dec 25 18:50 |
| schestowitz | as tty7 hangs | Dec 25 18:50 |
| cubexyz | I'm merely pointing out alternatives | Dec 25 18:50 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: in which distro? | Dec 25 18:50 |
| schestowitz | kubuntu | Dec 25 18:50 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: alternatives for? | Dec 25 18:50 |
| sebsebseb | Kubuntu is pointless pretty much now! | Dec 25 18:51 |
| schestowitz | what's the meta-package name for xfce? | Dec 25 18:51 |
| schestowitz | it doesn't find xfce | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | and I have met Johnothan Riddle in person :d | Dec 25 18:51 |
| schestowitz | or xfce-desktop | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | I talked to him at FOSDEM this year enough :) | Dec 25 18:51 |
| cubexyz | people liked the old KDE 3.5 including myself so I thought I'd try trinity | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | and he must have been there the year before etc to | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: you looked like the old KDE 2 or whatever it was, if I remember correctly | Dec 25 18:51 |
| cubexyz | for IRC I still use xchat | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | liked above | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | I use Konversation still, but | Dec 25 18:51 |
| cubexyz | no, I use differ eras as needed | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | I don't like how | Dec 25 18:51 |
| sebsebseb | for some reason the channels etc are on the left now | Dec 25 18:52 |
| cubexyz | e.g. kubik from KDE 1 | Dec 25 18:52 |
| sebsebseb | not down the bottom like before | Dec 25 18:52 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Why not ubuntu-mate-desktop ? | Dec 25 18:52 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: why not Magiea or something for KDE :) | Dec 25 18:52 |
| schestowitz | gnome3 is VERY bloated | Dec 25 18:52 |
| sebsebseb | I think running Ubuntu is a bit pointless really unless going to run Unity :) | Dec 25 18:52 |
| cubexyz | I don't really like anything 100% so I try a bunch of different things | Dec 25 18:52 |
| schestowitz | 1 GB of RAM before I even start anything | Dec 25 18:53 |
| schestowitz | or something like that | Dec 25 18:53 |
| schestowitz | is this just a new 'distro' 'standard'? | Dec 25 18:53 |
| schestowitz | The DE itself does take up a lot, too | Dec 25 18:53 |
| sebsebseb | heh no, but Live CD's are out for most distros now | Dec 25 18:53 |
| sebsebseb | it's DVD's now | Dec 25 18:53 |
| sebsebseb | or soon | Dec 25 18:53 |
| sebsebseb | yep Mageia is dropping the Live CD's starting with 6 | Dec 25 18:53 |
| sebsebseb | Ubuntu already has it seems | Dec 25 18:54 |
| sebsebseb | DVD sizee now | Dec 25 18:54 |
| cubexyz | ok, I can now answer your question about konversation... it uses 4.8.4 version of KDE (konversation 1.4) | Dec 25 18:54 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Konversation Version 1.6 Using KDE Frameworks 5.9.0 that's Ubuntu or Kubuntu whatever, I am actusally running Ubuntu 15.10 with Unity right now, since distrowise this lap top isn't quite set up fully yet | Dec 25 18:55 |
| sebsebseb | with pshyicall installs | Dec 25 18:55 |
| cubexyz | I mainly use icewm with bits and pieces from other DE's | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Trinity is not so good at keeping up to date with security updates I would have thought | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | yeah I tend to use GNOME with Konversation in there to | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | and in a distro that isn't Ubuntu to :) | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | so Mageia it would be, but this lap top uh! | Dec 25 18:56 |
| cubexyz | well I still update Unix v5 from 1974 so old stuff doesn't bother me | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | and I been foucssing on other stuff to, so not set up for that erason to properly yet | Dec 25 18:56 |
| cubexyz | new stuff can often be overly elaborate | Dec 25 18:56 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: maybe I should put a Trinity distro on though :) | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I liked KDE 3 as well | Dec 25 18:57 |
| cubexyz | try it and form your own opinion | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | I plan to multi boot it with a few distros, but | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | thing is I got Windodws on here 10 yes | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | and | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | Windows 8.10 upgraded to Windows 10 | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | 8.1 | Dec 25 18:57 |
| schestowitz | I might try unity next | Dec 25 18:57 |
| schestowitz | with lightdm | Dec 25 18:57 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah it's okish actsaully Unity | Dec 25 18:57 |
| schestowitz | (like some n00b) | Dec 25 18:57 |
| schestowitz | but KDE is broken (the latest builds) | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: well I would have been really bored of this Unity now that's in Ubuntu desktop if I had been using for years, but | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: for the occasioanl useage why not | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | Unity on Ubuntu Touch though is quite nice | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | Unity 8 | Dec 25 18:58 |
| schestowitz | cya in a bit ( hope) | Dec 25 18:58 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 18:58 | |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: one more release with this old Unity that Ubuntu has on computers now it seems Ubuntu 16.04 LTS and then Ubuntu on the desktop wwill go Unithy 8 to it seems | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | and he's gone already | Dec 25 18:58 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: surely Trintiy lags behind security updates | Dec 25 18:59 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: isn't quite as up to date as it should be with certain packages, konversation for example | Dec 25 18:59 |
| cubexyz | ok, you may recall my thoughts on FC1? | Dec 25 18:59 |
| cubexyz | about how I fix the security stuff myself? :) | Dec 25 18:59 |
| sebsebseb | well yeah | Dec 25 18:59 |
| sebsebseb | ,but would I? probably not really so | Dec 25 18:59 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: still could be fun to have a pshyicall install of a Trinity distro or too on here to | Dec 25 19:00 |
| sebsebseb | I am keeping a pshyicall install of Ubuntu on here, but only really since Unity | Dec 25 19:00 |
| sebsebseb | Unity is like the only proper reason to use Ubuntu at the moment on a normal computer really | Dec 25 19:00 |
| sebsebseb | since other distro's can do like pretty much everything else :) | Dec 25 19:00 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: have you stll got FEdora Core 1? | Dec 25 19:01 |
| cubexyz | I do | Dec 25 19:01 |
| sebsebseb | oh | Dec 25 19:01 |
| cubexyz | it's been running since 2004 | Dec 25 19:01 |
| sebsebseb | heh | Dec 25 19:01 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh interesting: Exe GNU/Linux originates from Exmouth in South West England. It was first made for local use but now includes Spanish support since some of the development was done in Las Palmas, Gran Canaria. | Dec 25 19:03 |
| cubexyz | here's some desktop pics: | Dec 25 19:04 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/desktop | Dec 25 19:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.maxhost.org | Index of /other/desktop | Dec 25 19:04 | |
| *sebsebseb is from South West England and I have had a holiday in Gran Canaria before as well :0 | Dec 25 19:04 | |
| sebsebseb | :) at end | Dec 25 19:04 |
| cubexyz | FC1 was retro-fitted with KDE 3.4.2 but I got tired updating it | Dec 25 19:04 |
| cubexyz | so it's still KDE 3.4.2 now | Dec 25 19:05 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *schestowitz_log (~schestowi@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *schestowitz_log has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| *schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:05 | |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/desktop/fc1-upgraded-desktop-2010.png | Dec 25 19:05 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: KDE 3 is in the social network as well | Dec 25 19:05 |
| sebsebseb | that's a good film :) | Dec 25 19:06 |
| cubexyz | I'm still learning new things about FC1 12 years later | Dec 25 19:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh such as? | Dec 25 19:07 |
| cubexyz | shellshock... had to switch to ash for the server instead of bash to run certain scripts | Dec 25 19:08 |
| cubexyz | but I also patched bash 2.04 | Dec 25 19:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: oh the security issue you mean? | Dec 25 19:08 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 19:08 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah there's a computer that's still vunverble to that, that I should upgrade really, but haven't yet | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | a distro re install later version | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: forgot both passwords so, root and user account | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | and I coudn't remember how to do it from a LIve CD re setting | Dec 25 19:09 |
| cubexyz | so I have special builds for rtorrent and git | Dec 25 19:09 |
| cubexyz | but there's no big problem adding stuff | Dec 25 19:09 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | Fc1 had the longest running X session out of any OS | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | oh? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | tested for over 10 years in total | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | lasted you mean? | Dec 25 19:10 |
| cubexyz | I think it had the least memory leaks | Dec 25 19:10 |
| sebsebseb | without a re boot | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | ? | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | that's right | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah your a proper nerd/geek you, I am not :d | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | not 10 years though... more like 420+ days (so far) | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | long time still | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | utility power was the problem, not X | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | yes | Dec 25 19:11 |
| sebsebseb | oh you had a power cut you mean heh? | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | the UPS is only good for 40 mins | Dec 25 19:11 |
| cubexyz | so if I have a power failure longer than that it shutdowns | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | the UPS? | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | US Post Service :d | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | ,but no your eaning something else hmm | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | meaning | Dec 25 19:12 |
| cubexyz | Uninterruptable Power Supply | Dec 25 19:12 |
| sebsebseb | oh ok | Dec 25 19:12 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: First of all I suggest that you always include the version number when you write or think "KDE". Otherwise you are buying into the idea that whatever the plasma saboteurs are currently putting out is the "real" KDE. It isn't. I'm still using KDE3.5.10 and it's fast and runs KDE4 apps. | Dec 25 19:12 |
| cubexyz | I also made other changes to the case to improve reliability | Dec 25 19:13 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: KDE 3.5.10 in what? | Dec 25 19:13 |
| msb__ | Suse Linux 11.4 | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: hmm so your running old stuff to not just cubexyz | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | but not as old as him heh | Dec 25 19:14 |
| cubexyz | I run Unix v5, that's pretty old | Dec 25 19:14 |
| XRevan86 | It seems like only I am using new stuff around %). | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: I am | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: as well | Dec 25 19:14 |
| sebsebseb | anyway all KDE's are old now, unless it's KDE 5 :D | Dec 25 19:15 |
| sebsebseb | heh | Dec 25 19:15 |
| schestowitz | gnome3 is a TOY | Dec 25 19:15 |
| schestowitz | WTF? | Dec 25 19:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/computer-longevity.txt | Dec 25 19:16 |
| schestowitz | no virtual desktops even? | Dec 25 19:16 |
| cubexyz | check out the section on hard drives :) | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: is that your opinion? sounds like soething people put in articles | Dec 25 19:16 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Virtual desktops are in the "menu" | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: I think there are virtual desktops just a little tricky to find maybe, I am not on GNOME 3 Shell right now | Dec 25 19:16 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 19:16 |
| schestowitz | let me see... | Dec 25 19:16 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: it's also a version behind upstream in Ubuntu | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mageia 6 is actsaully going to have the latest upstream GNOME when it's released in like end of April or May, :) | Dec 25 19:17 |
| cubexyz | don't succumb to upgradeotoesis :) | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | Fedora is apparnatly going Wayland soon | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | full wayland | Dec 25 19:17 |
| sebsebseb | not just the log in screen | Dec 25 19:17 |
| XRevan86 | http://techrights.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/GNOME-Shell-3.10.png | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | apaprnatly they already use Wayland for the log in screen | Dec 25 19:18 |
| XRevan86 | on the right | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what do you mean? | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | mindless upgrading | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | upgrading for no reason | Dec 25 19:18 |
| schestowitz | windows with just one button, the close button | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nah things need to go forward | Dec 25 19:18 |
| schestowitz | it's like Linux 1.0 | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: if we are talking Ubbuntu though, well then sure t he last few releases have been just mindless upgrades really | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, have you ever talked to a cobbler? | Dec 25 19:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: releases because they had to have a release | Dec 25 19:18 |
| cubexyz | some of them use machines from the 1920s | Dec 25 19:19 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: How do you know q4os doesn't use systemd? I can't find a decent description of it, it's based on debian, and there's nobody in #q4os. | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what's a cobbler? | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | ugh.. ok :) | Dec 25 19:19 |
| schestowitz | no pager... | Dec 25 19:19 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Even if it does, one can always make it not. | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | first of all, I use q4os so I know 100% it doesn't use systemd | Dec 25 19:19 |
| cubexyz | secondly a cobbler is a person who makes shoes :) | Dec 25 19:19 |
| sebsebseb | thirdly cubexyz is a old guy, who uses old tech :d | Dec 25 19:20 |
| cubexyz | I'm not that old :) | Dec 25 19:20 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: how old are you? | Dec 25 19:20 |
| cubexyz | I turned 50 this year | Dec 25 19:20 |
| sebsebseb | yep your getting old now heh | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | starting to | Dec 25 19:21 |
| msb__ | I turned 70. | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: are you really 70? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | [19:19] <sebsebseb> schestowitz: what is like Linux 1.0? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | gnome 3.0 | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | how so? | Dec 25 19:21 |
| msb__ | I take a lot of vitamins and hope. | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | there's a flavour they call "flashback" | Dec 25 19:21 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME Shell is modern look :) same for Unity really | Dec 25 19:21 |
| schestowitz | but it feels like ubuntu in 2004 | Dec 25 19:22 |
| schestowitz | this one is even more primitive, lots of stuff missing | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | GNOME 3 doesnt' feel like Ubuntu in 2004, or you mean flashback? | Dec 25 19:22 |
| cubexyz | msb knows LINC-8 :))) | Dec 25 19:22 |
| schestowitz | I just need some usable env in which to run my software | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Mate | Dec 25 19:22 |
| msb__ | Hell, I worked on a LINC. | Dec 25 19:22 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Not flavour, GNOME Flashback is GNOME + gnome-panel, metacity, etc. | Dec 25 19:22 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: Fedora Core 1 maybe if cubexyz sets up for you :d | Dec 25 19:23 |
| XRevan86 | although that depends on what you define as flavour :) | Dec 25 19:23 |
| schestowitz | I can't stop klipper here | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, don't worry, I own some newer technology | Dec 25 19:23 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: heh such as? | Dec 25 19:23 |
| schestowitz | a deal breaker, iirc glipper uses mono | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | I even use LCDs sometimes :) | Dec 25 19:23 |
| cubexyz | I own a chromebook, that was 2015 technology | Dec 25 19:24 |
| cubexyz | it's hard to be a one-man distro maintainer | Dec 25 19:25 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ok ,but Chrome has such a basic interface etc | Dec 25 19:25 |
| cubexyz | CRTs can last a long time. Not sure how long my LCDs will last | Dec 25 19:25 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: LCDs can last a long time as well. | Dec 25 19:27 |
| cubexyz | I know a guy who drives a 1960s truck still | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | sebsebseb: was trying to install trinity, which I doubted would be in the repo | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | no tirinity-desktop | Dec 25 19:27 |
| cubexyz | it's like driving in a museum :) | Dec 25 19:27 |
| schestowitz | and trinity, as it turned out, is some obscure CLI program | Dec 25 19:27 |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Yeah, Trinity is not in repos. | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | i wouldn't expect it to | Dec 25 19:28 |
| XRevan86 | and MATE is | Dec 25 19:28 |
| XRevan86 | XFaCE: See? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I ; | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | what alternative is there to plasma that's good a lot of features? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: as I put earlier, Trinity isn't in any of the commonly known distors | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | is there a plasma-less KDE? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: razorqt maybee? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| schestowitz | openbox? | Dec 25 19:28 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, did you see my special windows 10 pic? | Dec 25 19:29 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: nope | Dec 25 19:29 |
| schestowitz | ah, yes, razorqt, haven't heard of it in a while | Dec 25 19:29 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: trinity is just a fork of KDE3.5.10 You get it from here: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 25 19:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-SSL connect error ( status 0 @ https://www.trinitydesktop.org/ ) | Dec 25 19:29 | |
| XRevan86 | schestowitz: Well, because razor-qt was superseded by LXQt. | Dec 25 19:29 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/shouldnt-have-used-windows-10.jpg | Dec 25 19:29 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yeah razor-qt is repalced by LXQT | Dec 25 19:29 |
| XRevan86 | where last "t" is lower-case :) | Dec 25 19:30 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 19:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights- ( status 404 @ http://www.maxhost.org/other/key-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png ) | Dec 25 19:30 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: schestowitz XRevan86 msb__ Windows 10's best feauture seriously, guess what it is :) | Dec 25 19:30 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: | Dec 25 19:30 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Bugs to graw people to GNU/Linux? | Dec 25 19:30 |
| sebsebseb | XRevan86: heh maybe, but no that's the wrong answer :) | Dec 25 19:31 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: I recommend that you backup and check all of your data. Then choose a distro from here: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page | Dec 25 19:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-without-systemd.org | Without Systemd | Dec 25 19:31 | |
| XRevan86 | * http://maxhost.org/other/hey-kid-upgrade-to-windows-10.png | Dec 25 19:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: dunno, there are so many great features there | Dec 25 19:31 |
| scientes | schestowitz, Merry Christmas | Dec 25 19:31 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: malware/botnet functionality, keylogger, backdoor for software uninstallation, spying on your kids | Dec 25 19:31 |
| XRevan86 | sebsebseb: Black panel? | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | malware-like "upgrade" pushing from earlier versions | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: MinceR cubexyz XRevan86 schestowitz why do some people have such a issue with SystemD I don't really understand, and I don't really care what a distro uses to boot itself up with, as long as it works and is fast enough :) | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | ads in start menu | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yep maybe, but wrong answer again :d | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: unfortunately cancerd is not just an init system | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: it's an operating system | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | cancerd ??? what's that | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | without a good service manager, init system, or anything | Dec 25 19:32 |
| cubexyz | systemd is anti-unix | Dec 25 19:32 |
| MinceR | same as systemd | Dec 25 19:32 |
| msb__ | schestowitz: Because it's probably systemd that's messing up your computer. Choose a non-systemd distro that has a trinity distribution for it. | Dec 25 19:32 |
| cubexyz | that's the reason I don't like systemd | Dec 25 19:32 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: well it gets rid of the old init thing yes | Dec 25 19:33 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but who needs that really these days? | Dec 25 19:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: It's objectively not. | Dec 25 19:33 |
| cubexyz | people should be able to use whatever init system they want | Dec 25 19:33 |
| cubexyz | not forced into systemd | Dec 25 19:33 |
| sebsebseb | who cares as long as it boots and works as I put earlier basically :) | Dec 25 19:33 |
| msb__ | XRevan86: what is not? | Dec 25 19:33 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: schestowitz issues are not systemd-related. | Dec 25 19:33 |
| MinceR | cancerd and its dependents are designed to take away the users' freedom to choose their init system | Dec 25 19:33 |
| MinceR | (and for many other things too) | Dec 25 19:33 |
| sebsebseb | what's cancerd? or is that a joke? | Dec 25 19:34 |
| msb__ | sebsebseb: systemd is not working for schestowitz. | Dec 25 19:34 |
| sebsebseb | cancer? | Dec 25 19:34 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 25 19:34 | |
| *schestowitz_log has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 19:34 | |
| cubexyz | I think MinceR means that "cancerd" is eating Linux from the inside like a cancer | Dec 25 19:34 |
| msb__ | XRevan86: systemd is so complicated now that nobody can know wtf it is doing. | Dec 25 19:34 |
| cubexyz | taking over more and more functions... | Dec 25 19:34 |
| sebsebseb | yep | Dec 25 19:35 |
| sebsebseb | yep systemd does things that old stuff did before | Dec 25 19:35 |
| sebsebseb | that's the idea | Dec 25 19:35 |
| sebsebseb | apparnatly may not work so well with Unixes to, and so is more of a LInux thing, but again so be it I guess | Dec 25 19:35 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: So if KDE Plasma crashed, blame systemd? | Dec 25 19:35 |
| sebsebseb | Linux wss never Unix anyway, it's just Unix like, most LInux distros | Dec 25 19:35 |
| cubexyz | don't use Plasma :) | Dec 25 19:35 |
| MinceR | apparently everything is "old stuff" that is not broken enough to require monthly updates | Dec 25 19:36 |
| cubexyz | yes but some old stuff is rather good... | Dec 25 19:36 |
| XRevan86 | cubexyz: I don't :) | Dec 25 19:36 |
| sebsebseb | some old stuff is rather good, yep such as cubexyz :d | Dec 25 19:36 |
| MinceR | also, apparently the definition of "modern" is overcomplicated, undesigned crap code | Dec 25 19:36 |
| msb__ | It's best not to use systemd or plasma. | Dec 25 19:36 |
| MinceR | with as much bloat as they can muster | Dec 25 19:36 |
| MinceR | or gnome | Dec 25 19:37 |
| sebsebseb | Windows 10 | Dec 25 19:37 |
| cubexyz | All I'm saying is... is use the init system you want | Dec 25 19:37 |
| cubexyz | I'm not saying use one specific init system | Dec 25 19:37 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: are you just talking code with those comments, or do you mean the feuatres that users see to? | Dec 25 19:37 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: both the code and the "features" that are used to sell it | Dec 25 19:37 |
| MinceR | like binary logging, which is braindead | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | some programs can have well to many features really yes | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | never going to use all those features | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | especially the way cancerd does it | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | graphics design programs are one such example for most people | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | especially in pid1, where any of those "features" may break your system | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | so people who get Photoshop to do basic stuff are silly really | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | in a way that's difficult to recover from | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | for no reason | Dec 25 19:38 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Firefox leaks. I was thinking it's addons, but maybe it's systemd, eh? :) | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | photoshop sucks | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yep | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | it's full of bugs | Dec 25 19:38 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: but it's very popular, since the main streame don't know much else | Dec 25 19:38 |
| MinceR | which is to be expected from the idiots at adobe | Dec 25 19:39 |
| XRevan86 | systemd does everything, so maybe it does JS leaking in Firefox as well? | Dec 25 19:39 |
| MinceR | it will surely include a browser eventually | Dec 25 19:39 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well they can't make one version too good, since the idea is to sell new versions | Dec 25 19:39 |
| MinceR | systemd-emacsd | Dec 25 19:39 |
| sebsebseb | systemd with a brwoser hmm | Dec 25 19:39 |
| sebsebseb | a web browser? | Dec 25 19:39 |
| cubexyz | ask yourself why is microsoft forcing windows 7 users to upgrade to windows 10? | Dec 25 19:39 |
| MinceR | though i don't know if that will happen first or running systemd in kernel mode | Dec 25 19:39 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: since they want everyone on the same Windows version fro now on or pretty much | Dec 25 19:40 |
| XRevan86 | leechcraftd? | Dec 25 19:40 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: Windows 10 is Windows for many years now | Dec 25 19:40 |
| MinceR | so the propaganda says | Dec 25 19:40 |
| sebsebseb | they made it so could downgrade to the odl version, but then after 30 days stopped that from happenign uh! | Dec 25 19:40 |
| sebsebseb | also if have upgraded you can't just re install it | Dec 25 19:40 |
| sebsebseb | unless you made recovery media yourself, something I didn't do | Dec 25 19:40 |
| sebsebseb | I think I might have a virus in my 10 install or some sort of malware so uhmm | Dec 25 19:41 |
| cubexyz | sebsebseb, I have some win95 customers still :) | Dec 25 19:41 |
| msb__ | Firefox remembers where each of your tabs has been so you can backtrack. Eventually that uses up noticeable memory. Just kill and restart Firefox every couple of days (if you have hundreds of tabs open like I do). | Dec 25 19:41 |
| cubexyz | that's what they want | Dec 25 19:41 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: what do they want? | Dec 25 19:41 |
| MinceR | sometimes it doesn't remember where my tabs were | Dec 25 19:42 |
| MinceR | it has jumped the shark | Dec 25 19:42 |
| XRevan86 | msb__: Nah, it's JS that is leaking, so about:memory says. | Dec 25 19:42 |
| cubexyz | they want win95 :) | Dec 25 19:42 |
| XRevan86 | meaning that apparently some addon makes objects, and makes objects, and makes objects… | Dec 25 19:42 |
| cubexyz | I never said it was logical... but that is that | Dec 25 19:42 |
| msb__ | MinceR: Is your firefox up to date? Mine never forgets where my tabs were when I restart it. | Dec 25 19:43 |
| MinceR | no, it's debian stable | Dec 25 19:43 |
| MinceR | i mean, 7 | Dec 25 19:43 |
| MinceR | though i updated recently, maybe it sucks less now | Dec 25 19:43 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so uhmm how many imigrants are in Hungary now :d | Dec 25 19:44 |
| MinceR | maybe i'll move to Pale Moon or xombrero or both | Dec 25 19:44 |
| MinceR | probably not many | Dec 25 19:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: what did you think of htem closing the border a few months back too | Dec 25 19:44 |
| msb__ | MinceR: I suggest installing firefox in your account and keeping it up to date. | Dec 25 19:44 |
| MinceR | any immigrant with at least one brain cells wants to go to germany, not this shithole | Dec 25 19:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: indeed Germany or Sweden | Dec 25 19:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: or UK even if they can get across the channel | Dec 25 19:44 |
| sebsebseb | the sea | Dec 25 19:44 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: do you think it was right for them to put the wall up? | Dec 25 19:45 |
| sebsebseb | block acess I mean | Dec 25 19:45 |
| cubexyz | Europeans seem to like Linux more | Dec 25 19:45 |
| cubexyz | and South Americans | Dec 25 19:46 |
| MinceR | not the way they did it | Dec 25 19:46 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why not? | Dec 25 19:46 |
| MinceR | their approach is totally wrong | Dec 25 19:46 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: mainland Europe you mean like Germans and such? UK is very Apple and Microsoft infected! | Dec 25 19:46 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why do you think that? | Dec 25 19:46 |
| cubexyz | and the United States of course... is very pro-Apple and pro-Microsoft | Dec 25 19:46 |
| MinceR | instead of spouting nationalist, xenophobic propaganda and putting up some shitty half-fence that they won't guard and don't have the legal basis to operat | Dec 25 19:46 |
| MinceR | they should have worked with the EU to set up quotas | Dec 25 19:47 |
| MinceR | and if necessary, build a proper fence with people who know how to do that, set up the legal basis for operating it (though this would be part of setting up quotas, really), and guard it | Dec 25 19:47 |
| sebsebseb | yeah maybe | Dec 25 19:47 |
| MinceR | also, the fence probably shouldn't even be here | Dec 25 19:47 |
| msb__ | Have you folks heard about the US chief of the JCS and head of the DIA sharing intelligence on Syria, ISIL, Turkey, etc, with Assad? | Dec 25 19:47 |
| MinceR | the refugees entered the EU well before | Dec 25 19:47 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: nope | Dec 25 19:48 |
| MinceR | then again, maybe not the Schengen region | Dec 25 19:48 |
| sebsebseb | that was for msb__ nope | Dec 25 19:48 |
| msb__ | http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-12-22/seymour-hersh-bombshell-us-military-shared-intelligence-assad-defiance-obama-cia | Dec 25 19:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.zerohedge.com | Seymour Hersh Bombshell: US Military Shared Intelligence With Assad In Defiance Of Obama, CIA | Zero Hedge | Dec 25 19:48 | |
| sebsebseb | msb__: yeah Schengen makes it rather easy for them to move around there | Dec 25 19:48 |
| msb__ | http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n01/seymour-m-hersh/military-to-military | Dec 25 19:48 |
| sebsebseb | msb__: UK is not part of it so instead loads of imigrants in Calai hoping to get across the sea | Dec 25 19:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.lrb.co.uk | Seymour M. Hersh · Military to Military · LRB 7 January 2016 [ http://ur1.ca/ocytp ] | Dec 25 19:48 | |
| sebsebseb | uh for MinceR the last two | Dec 25 19:49 |
| msb__ | Sy Hersh is a very famous journalist. | Dec 25 19:49 |
| *sebsebseb is going to Brussels in a few weeks | Dec 25 19:49 | |
| sebsebseb | maybe something will happen there hmm | Dec 25 19:49 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:49 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 19:49 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:49 | |
| schestowitz | on razorqt for 10 mins now | Dec 25 19:50 |
| schestowitz | still trying to get klipper going on it | Dec 25 19:50 |
| sebsebseb | razorqt went bye bye and got replaced by LXQT though | Dec 25 19:50 |
| sebsebseb | so it's old school like cubexyz :d | Dec 25 19:50 |
| schestowitz | ok, let's carry on the shuffle | Dec 25 19:50 |
| MinceR | every day i'm shufflin' | Dec 25 19:51 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: the Ipod Shuffle? :d | Dec 25 19:51 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yeah with your secret Apple device | Dec 25 19:51 |
| schestowitz | i used lxde but not lxqt | Dec 25 19:51 |
| msb__ | Those top US military guys can't understand why the US has knocked off two secular leaders in the ME -- Saddam and Kadaffi -- and is working on removing a third -- Assad. It's as if the US administration wants Islamic head-choppers/clit-cutters to take over the whole ME. | Dec 25 19:51 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: yes LXDE is stil there for now | Dec 25 19:51 |
| cubexyz | I liked the way FC1 did LKMs | Dec 25 19:52 |
| sebsebseb | ,,bbut that might go bye bye to it sems or whatever it was | Dec 25 19:52 |
| cubexyz | didn't like the new way... what else is new | Dec 25 19:52 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: most media players can do it without crApple crap | Dec 25 19:52 |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 19:53 | |
| *schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:53 | |
| cubexyz | I spent years reconfiguring stuff in vector so I'm reluctant to move to a newer distro so I did what I usually do... | Dec 25 19:54 |
| cubexyz | set up a different computer to try a new distro | Dec 25 19:54 |
| schestowitz_log | back on plasma | Dec 25 19:54 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: I found out that mplayer can play videos and TV in the Ctrl-Alt-Fn text consoles. It uses fbdev. | Dec 25 19:55 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 19:56 | |
| MinceR | technically, X runs on such a console too :> | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | just not in text mode | Dec 25 19:56 |
| schestowitz_log | my qt settings got overridden | Dec 25 19:56 |
| schestowitz_log | so even plasma got ugly | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | (though i'm told linux tends to use fake text mode anyway) | Dec 25 19:56 |
| cubexyz | it's not really a text console though... it's just a separate video mode | Dec 25 19:56 |
| cubexyz | MDA was true text | Dec 25 19:56 |
| MinceR | vga could do it too | Dec 25 19:57 |
| schestowitz | I think I'm stuck, it's the base that's broken, every DE/WM started with little ram left free | Dec 25 19:57 |
| cubexyz | yes, I think FreeDOS and MSDOS could use that | Dec 25 19:57 |
| sebsebseb | schestowitz: did you try KDE 5 in something? | Dec 25 19:57 |
| msb__ | cubexyz: But it's not X. That's what surprised me. X was frozen up at the time. | Dec 25 19:58 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it's not X but it's still a video mode | Dec 25 19:58 |
| MinceR | well, there was also SVGALib | Dec 25 19:58 |
| MinceR | for example | Dec 25 19:58 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: msb__ cubexyz schestowitz Oh yeah what do you all think of Blackberry? | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | you can shutdown X completely and still use radeonfb or something like that | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | not much | Dec 25 19:59 |
| msb__ | It said it was using fbdev. | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | i guess if they embrace android, they might still have a chance to survive | Dec 25 19:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: yes they are now it seems | Dec 25 19:59 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a new phone, that has Android on it now with some blackberry changes, it's expensive | Dec 25 19:59 |
| MinceR | i'm weaned off physical phone keyboards though | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | msb__, right it uses whatever framebuffer your video card supports | Dec 25 19:59 |
| cubexyz | it can be a bunch of different ones | Dec 25 20:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: why don't you like pshhycall phone keyboards? | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | note ii virtual keyboard > n97 physical keyboard | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | they tend to come with non-monoblock form factors | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | which makes them easy to drop and difficult to cover with a case | Dec 25 20:00 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I kind of was thinking of buying a cheap blackberry phone maybe, but only since I haven't really done anything with there OS, yes I know it's a bit of a failure and such | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | they also usually skimp on number keys | Dec 25 20:00 |
| *schestowitz_log has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 20:00 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 20:00 | |
| MinceR | which is not good for my on-the-go note taking | Dec 25 20:00 |
| MinceR | and on a 5.5" capacitive touchscreen virtual keyboard turned out to work pretty well | Dec 25 20:01 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a cheapish newer blackbetrry phone without the keyboad | Dec 25 20:01 |
| MinceR | they still use OLED display though, don't they? | Dec 25 20:01 |
| *trn has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 25 20:01 | |
| cubexyz | tech should be repairable | Dec 25 20:02 |
| MinceR | and yet it isn't | Dec 25 20:02 |
| cubexyz | Ipads rank as one of the least repairable devices ever made | Dec 25 20:02 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they got a new phone, that has Android on it now with some blackberry changes, it's expensive | Dec 25 20:02 |
| MinceR | hypePads are crippled devices | Dec 25 20:03 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: the Priv? | Dec 25 20:03 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: the prvi and classi are to expensive really | Dec 25 20:03 |
| sebsebseb | if just geting for the OS mainly | Dec 25 20:03 |
| sebsebseb | so that leaves this one then: http://uk.blackberry.com/smartphones/blackberry-leap/overview.html | Dec 25 20:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-uk.blackberry.com | BlackBerry Leap – New BlackBerry smartphone with large HD screen - United Kingdom | Dec 25 20:03 | |
| cubexyz | Dell XPS 10 and Kindle Fire ranked much higher for repairablility | Dec 25 20:03 |
| MinceR | also, i don't like blackberry's FUD against android | Dec 25 20:03 |
| cubexyz | although I never actually got a XPS 10 | Dec 25 20:03 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: anything with a keyboard is expensie the pshyhcaill keyboard from blackberry it seems | Dec 25 20:04 |
| MinceR | they keep claiming it has no security or privacy and that they fixed that, but they don't back any of those statements with anything | Dec 25 20:04 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well there latest phone uses Andorid with the blackbettery changes as I said | Dec 25 20:04 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: they have done ther security fixes in that | Dec 25 20:04 |
| MinceR | what "security fixes"? | Dec 25 20:04 |
| sebsebseb | whatever they think is security | Dec 25 20:04 |
| sebsebseb | see here hold on | Dec 25 20:04 |
| cubexyz | https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability | Dec 25 20:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.ifixit.com | Tablet Repairability Scores - iFixit | Dec 25 20:04 | |
| MinceR | i don't like this "just trust us" mentality | Dec 25 20:05 |
| *schestowitz (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:05 | |
| *schestowitz has quit (Changing host) | Dec 25 20:05 | |
| *schestowitz (~roy@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:05 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: http://uk.blackberry.com/smartphones/priv-by-blackberry/specifications.html | Dec 25 20:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-uk.blackberry.com | PRIV by BlackBerry Specs – Specifications for Android BlackBerry Smartphone - United Kingdom [ http://ur1.ca/ocyu2 ] | Dec 25 20:05 | |
| schestowitz | what's the openbox shortcut for changing virtual desktop? | Dec 25 20:05 |
| schestowitz | not Fn | Dec 25 20:05 |
| schestowitz | I'm trying just plain openbox | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | at least it's light | Dec 25 20:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: MinceR I broke my ipaid air, a guy fixed, but it broke again, shoudl give him it back to fix | Dec 25 20:06 |
| MinceR | ctrl+Fn | Dec 25 20:06 |
| MinceR | i think | Dec 25 20:06 |
| cubexyz | ipaid :) | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | has no effect | Dec 25 20:06 |
| MinceR | or super+Fn | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | ah yes | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | thanks | Dec 25 20:06 |
| cubexyz | you sure did | Dec 25 20:06 |
| MinceR | np | Dec 25 20:06 |
| scientes | <MinceR> sebsebseb: unfortunately cancerd is not just an init system | Dec 25 20:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I got it cheap in Brussels last year, much cheaper than UK price | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | I might give this a try | Dec 25 20:06 |
| scientes | lol | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | very light, not bad... | Dec 25 20:06 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I hadn't really done anything with iOS and wanted to so | Dec 25 20:06 |
| schestowitz | with xbindkeys I can start programs I commonly use | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: last year this year even | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | and MinceR loved me when I told him about that :d | Dec 25 20:07 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: there's nothing substantial on that page, just specs and empty claims | Dec 25 20:07 |
| cubexyz | oh and bottom ranked for repairability? Microsoft Surface Pro! | Dec 25 20:07 |
| cubexyz | Microsoft sucks again | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | the surface heh | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | well | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | I actsaully have something interesting | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | that may look like it the hardware, but | Dec 25 20:07 |
| MinceR | actually m$ never stopped sucking | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | acsaully it runs a customized Android OS | Dec 25 20:07 |
| sebsebseb | I have the Remix OS tablet, and the Remix Mini's as well :) | Dec 25 20:08 |
| cubexyz | hmmm | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I agree that tablets and such ideally should be more easilly repairable for users though | Dec 25 20:09 |
| cubexyz | how much is remix? | Dec 25 20:09 |
| *schestowitz_log (~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:09 | |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but companeis want to sell devices that break after a while, so peole get new devices | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: I crowd funded the Remix Mini this year | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which is basically a little box, stick in a TV or monitor, and you got a Android PC :) | Dec 25 20:09 |
| sebsebseb | with there customised OS based on Android | Dec 25 20:09 |
| cubexyz | it's not that I expect devices to last forever, I merely expect to be able to get parts and repair stuff | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | one of the perks was tto get the tablet from the pervious year to, so I did that | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | that's a nice Chiense tablet it seems | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | bigger than the ipad air to | Dec 25 20:10 |
| sebsebseb | screen wise | Dec 25 20:10 |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:10 | |
| cubexyz | also I need a REAL KEYBOARD | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | looks like the Microsoft Surface since it's got a attachable keyboard and such, but no this is Andoid | Dec 25 20:11 |
| cubexyz | not some membrane thing | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes it comes with there keyboard | Dec 25 20:11 |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest54378 | Dec 25 20:11 | |
| MinceR | "android PC", eh? when will it run X directly on the console? | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: ,but using a ot2 device you can put in your own usb mouse keyboard, and external hard disks and so on even | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: o2g device above | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | comes with a good amount of storage space to internal the tablet, | Dec 25 20:11 |
| sebsebseb | was nice to acstaully receive something I havev crowd funded since last December :) | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | since I had issues with one to another tablet, since I was stupid enough to say to someone that I was going to possibly get the | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | patron perk | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | so he startd offering me, that at a discount, but.... | Dec 25 20:12 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yes the Remix OS tablet can in many ways replace a desktkop PC, not completly of course though | Dec 25 20:13 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: and the Remix Mini is like having a Android PC a small thing | Dec 25 20:13 |
| sebsebseb | with there cusotmied OS based on Android started by three former Google employees | Dec 25 20:13 |
| cubexyz | remix looks a bit expensive | Dec 25 20:14 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: yeah so some review said, but it's interesting what I got :) | Dec 25 20:14 |
| cubexyz | is that touch screen? | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | of cours it's touch screen it's a tablet, but if you got a o2g device that you plug into it | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | you can then use, a real USB mouse and keyboard, and other USB devices such as external hard disk even | Dec 25 20:15 |
| msb__ | I love some of Cher's old songs -- Dark Lady, Gypsies Tramps and Thieves, Half-Breed, Walking to Memphis. | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | I got one for my Meizu Phone :) | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | Ubuntu PHone | Dec 25 20:15 |
| sebsebseb | it's nice being able to use a real keyboard and mouse on that :) | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | no that's not hte convergence that's next year probably, when won't need a o2g device anymore | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | just connect to a montior and keyboard and mouse, and it turns into a desktop PC basically | Dec 25 20:16 |
| *sebsebseb waits for the bq convergence phone | Dec 25 20:16 | |
| sebsebseb | Firefox OS has had it | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | that's gone bye bye | Dec 25 20:16 |
| sebsebseb | as a phone OS | Dec 25 20:16 |
| cubexyz | http://www.maxhost.org/other/amigados-1.0.gif | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | Mozilla gave up, tehy should have targeted not just africa really with that to begin with I think. Jolla are sadly having compay issues, issues with an invester so not really sure what's going to hapepn there | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | so it seems the best bet at having a Linux based phone, that's not Android, at possily getting a bit more out there is yes Ubuntu Touch Phones | Dec 25 20:17 |
| sebsebseb | for now | Dec 25 20:18 |
| cubexyz | back in 1985 that was futuristic :) | Dec 25 20:18 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: your image yeah I guess so, now it looks classic | Dec 25 20:18 |
| cubexyz | just look at all that ram :) | Dec 25 20:18 |
| sebsebseb | where? | Dec 25 20:19 |
| sebsebseb | in the image? | Dec 25 20:19 |
| cubexyz | at the top | Dec 25 20:19 |
| cubexyz | 318144 free | Dec 25 20:19 |
| sebsebseb | oh | Dec 25 20:20 |
| cubexyz | well it was 30 years ago | Dec 25 20:20 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so you think a pshyicall keyboard, makes a phone to easy to drop? | Dec 25 20:23 |
| *Guest54378 has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) | Dec 25 20:24 | |
| cubexyz | maybe if I could get replacement parts for a tablet and be actually able to take it apart and reassemble it... | Dec 25 20:26 |
| cubexyz | otherwise it seems like a bad idea | Dec 25 20:26 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: which Remix tablet? or tabets in general? | Dec 25 20:27 |
| cubexyz | in general | Dec 25 20:27 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: you can take apart an ipad and so on if you know what your doing | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: but then you have to put in unoffical parts or whatever | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | it's not like a desktop I mean | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | where it's like set up in a way to be opended up if need be | Dec 25 20:28 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz can buy some offical parts | Dec 25 20:30 |
| sebsebseb | cubexyz: MinceR but yeah Apple makes an ipad be seen as a throw away device or replacement if hardware issues | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | by Zaurus still works, that's 2002 era | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | don't use it much though | Dec 25 20:31 |
| cubexyz | s/by/my/ | Dec 25 20:31 |
| msb__ | I thought you were swearing by the god Zaurus | Dec 25 20:32 |
| cubexyz | didn't know there was one :) | Dec 25 20:32 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: a non-monoblock phone is easy to drop | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | (slide, clamshell, whatever) | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | i've dropped all my non-monoblock phones and i've never dropped my monoblock phones | Dec 25 20:33 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: what do you mean by mnoblock? | Dec 25 20:33 |
| cubexyz | well there's always smart watches | Dec 25 20:33 |
| MinceR | no major moving parts | Dec 25 20:34 |
| MinceR | one unit | Dec 25 20:34 |
| MinceR | no hinge, no slide, no flip, no clamshell | Dec 25 20:34 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: so a phone with a pshyicall keyboard is a monoblock phone or isn't? | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | could be either | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | but monoblock phones with full keyboard are rare | Dec 25 20:35 |
| cubexyz | clay tablets are durable :) | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | blackberry is most notable for those | Dec 25 20:35 |
| cubexyz | also monoblock | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | nokia had a few | Dec 25 20:35 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: ok so a blackberry phone with a pshy8icall keyboard, more likely to drop that? | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | htc had a lot of slider (non-monoblock) phones with full keyboard | Dec 25 20:35 |
| MinceR | sebsebseb: no, an ordinary blackberry phone, where the keyboard is under the display, i wouldn't be likely to drop that | Dec 25 20:36 |
| MinceR | but if i have to slide it out (like on the Priv), it's more likely | Dec 25 20:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: the priv is to expensive, and I am not interested if it's Andorid with there changes | Dec 25 20:36 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I already got a customised actusal proper Android OS, yes Remix OS see earlier | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | if I am buying blackberry anything | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | its' for there OS | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | but it seems meant to have a pshyicall keyboard really for the like blackberry expericne or sort of, but on the leap would be ok without to hmm | Dec 25 20:37 |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: can't run Blackberry OS on a Nexus that easilly I guess? or maybe can, but I don't have one of those anyway | Dec 25 20:38 |
| MinceR | if i were to buy a phone now, i'd buy an LG V10 | Dec 25 20:38 |
| *sebsebseb likes trying differnet OS's | Dec 25 20:38 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: well I been using my Meizu MX 4 Ubuntu Phone as my phone for a few months now | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | since having that | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | sadly I actsually lost my BQ phone back in July :( | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | after travelling | Dec 25 20:38 |
| sebsebseb | on the house drive ah! | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | at like 5am | Dec 25 20:39 |
| *trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:39 | |
| sebsebseb | MinceR: I have a Jolla phone to, and cheap Firefxo OS | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | a old Andorid old nokia around, not using htose | Dec 25 20:39 |
| sebsebseb | the world has changed OS's are more so about mobile now to, that's phones and tablets | Dec 25 20:40 |
| *pidgin_log (~roy@host86-157-133-86.range86-157.btcentralplus.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 20:40 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Client Quit) | Dec 25 20:40 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/retroDoomer/status/680488392719613952 | Dec 25 20:44 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@retroDoomer: @schestowitz I went with Awesome WM. Tiling is damn good | Dec 25 20:44 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SleepyPenguin1/status/680489861518852101 | Dec 25 20:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SleepyPenguin1: I use #openbox with LXDE @schestowitz Leafpad text editor and PCManFM file manager. Useful stuff. Mix and match Gnome and KDE apps with that | Dec 25 20:48 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 25 21:12 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest67910 | Dec 25 21:13 | |
| schestowitz | merry xmas, Guest67910/ daemonfc | Dec 25 21:24 |
| *scientes has quit (Remote host closed the connection) | Dec 25 21:34 | |
| msb__ | On August 31, 1994, just a few weeks after the Cranberries' song Zombie was released, the IRA declared a ceasefire after 25 years of conflict, leading some critics of The Cranberries to wonder if the IRA was willing to call a truce to make sure the group didn't release any more songs about them. | Dec 25 21:46 |
| msb__ | The power of music! | Dec 25 21:46 |
| schestowitz | so far openbox works ok for me | Dec 25 21:52 |
| schestowitz | I don't need panels and other widgets | Dec 25 21:52 |
| schestowitz | unnecessary bloat when I use xbindkeys | Dec 25 21:52 |
| *Disconnected (Connection timed out). | Dec 26 01:30 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 26 01:30:49 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 26 01:31:16 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 26 01:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 26 01:31 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 26 01:31 | |
| msb__ | schestowitz: The description of the EVIL "trinity" says: "I recommend not running it on machines containing data you care about. It's entirely plausible that trinity could start calling unlink() on files it randomly finds. You might also want to make sure that there are no nfs or similar filesystems mounted for the same reason." | Dec 26 02:01 |
| msb__ | The EVIL TRINITY is here: http://codemonkey.org.uk/projects/trinity/ | Dec 26 02:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-codemonkey.org.uk | Trinity : A Linux system call fuzzer. [ http://ur1.ca/ocz5c ] | Dec 26 02:04 | |
| msb__ | The GOOD TRINITY is here: http://trinitydesktop.org/ | Dec 26 02:05 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-trinitydesktop.org | Trinity Desktop Environment | Dec 26 02:05 | |
| MinceR | i don't see how security testing is "EVIL" | Dec 26 02:44 |
| MinceR | i do wonder how it reacts to being run with --help or --version, though | Dec 26 02:45 |
| cubexyz | Fuzzer would have been a better name :) | Dec 26 02:45 |
| MinceR | there are many other fuzzers | Dec 26 02:51 |
| cubexyz | ok, call it trinity-fuzzer then | Dec 26 02:53 |
| cubexyz | the term trinity on it's own is hopelessly ambiguous | Dec 26 02:54 |
| MinceR | :) | Dec 26 02:54 |
| msb__ | Security testing per se isn't evil, but repurposing a popular software name to a program that runs random system commands and can delete files, activate the self-destruct system, launch the ICBMs, etc -- that is goddamn stupid. | Dec 26 03:10 |
| cubexyz | actually wasn't trinity also a nuclear test? :) | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | how do you know they repurposed the name from TDE? | Dec 26 03:11 |
| cubexyz | probably not | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | they may have used the name first | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | they may have been unaware of TDE for other reasons | Dec 26 03:11 |
| MinceR | we also have two chromiums | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | there are much earlier antecedents | Dec 26 03:12 |
| MinceR | and two gentoos | Dec 26 03:12 |
| MinceR | that too | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | the trinity nuclear test was 1945 | Dec 26 03:12 |
| cubexyz | two software chromiums? | Dec 26 03:14 |
| cubexyz | chromium OS, chromium web browser | Dec 26 03:14 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: there are threre chromiums in software. http://www.desura.com/games/chromium-bsu everyone forgets about chromium-bsu the game. | Dec 26 03:20 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.desura.com | Chromium B.S.U. Windows, Mac, Linux game | Desura | Dec 26 03:20 | |
| MinceR | yes | Dec 26 03:21 |
| MinceR | there's also chromium BSU, a game | Dec 26 03:21 |
| MinceR | ah, oiaohm beat me to it | Dec 26 03:21 |
| cubexyz | there's also a chromium OpenGL implemention :) | Dec 26 03:21 |
| *amarsh04 has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 03:22 | |
| *amarsh04 (~amarsh04@ppp118-210-81-90.lns20.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 03:23 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 03:24 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest19231 | Dec 26 03:25 | |
| oiaohm | msb__: The trinity fusser and the trinity desktop both come into existance in 2010. | Dec 26 03:25 |
| cubexyz | actually I did forget about Chromium the game but I did play it in the FC1 era | Dec 26 03:25 |
| cubexyz | is it still updated? | Dec 26 03:27 |
| MinceR | dunno | Dec 26 03:28 |
| MinceR | as far as shoot-em-ups go, i prefer Tyrian | Dec 26 03:28 |
| oiaohm | cubexyz: last source update to Chromium B.S.U was 2013. But compared to the hybernation of supertux cart there still might be new patches. | Dec 26 03:29 |
| msb__ | I think Roy was in a hurry and didn't take time to read the description of the program he was running. Old advice from Middle East or Asia regarding carpets: "Measure six times, cut once." | Dec 26 03:30 |
| MinceR | measure once, cut once. but make a backup first. | Dec 26 03:31 |
| oiaohm | msb__: depends on what the carpet is some carpets you never cut but work out how to carefully fold. | Dec 26 03:32 |
| MinceR | "measure with micrometer, mark with chalk, cut with axe" | Dec 26 03:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yep chalk and axe the wall to make space for the Persian carpet. Because no way are you cutting the Persian carpet. | Dec 26 03:36 |
| MinceR | :D | Dec 26 03:37 |
| MinceR | would it unravel if i did? | Dec 26 03:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: no you would unbalance the design so cutting it value to 1 percent or less of it starting value. | Dec 26 03:37 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 03:38 |
| oiaohm | Remember some of the collect-able Persian carpets are 100+ years old. And they are only worth as much as what they are because they are over 100 years old. Not something you can just go and speed money and get another one made as replacement. | Dec 26 03:39 |
| oiaohm | http://www.nola.com/homegarden/index.ssf/2013/06/this_rug_sold_for_how_much_per.html The most expensive one 33 millions dollars. Yes it more than possible that the rebuilding the building from scratch to fit the persian carpet is cheaper than cutting it. | Dec 26 03:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.nola.com | This rug sold for how much? Persian carpet brings in record price | NOLA.com [ http://ur1.ca/ocz8n ] | Dec 26 03:42 | |
| oiaohm | Always know the value of what you are considering cutting as sometimes it correct to destroy everything else instead. | Dec 26 03:43 |
| MinceR | i'd rather just use carpet with a much simpler (or no) pattern | Dec 26 03:44 |
| MinceR | i'm guessing they don't walk on that carpet | Dec 26 03:44 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the most expensive Persian Carpet I know that is walked on is about 3 million. | Dec 26 03:45 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the carpet is not going to get age marks if it not used. | Dec 26 03:46 |
| MinceR | if it's used, it will wear away | Dec 26 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Well made Persian Carpets take about 120 years of wear until they have to be taken out of use. | Dec 26 03:48 |
| oiaohm | 3 million is still young by Persian Carpet standards about 80 years old. | Dec 26 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Of course strictly no drinks or shoes or smokes no where near it. Walking on it with bare feet is fine. | Dec 26 03:49 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically after a particular age Persian Carpets become wall decorations. Now putting items designed for floors on walls is still one hell of a challenge. | Dec 26 03:52 |
| *sebsebseb has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) | Dec 26 03:52 | |
| MinceR | they can't take the strain? | Dec 26 03:57 |
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 26 04:15:32 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 26 04:15 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 26 04:15 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 26 04:15 | |
| *liberty_box has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) | Dec 26 04:15 | |
| oiaohm | MinceR: you think about it 100 years+ of wear then you decide to put them on wall for display. Yes there can be weak points. | Dec 26 04:18 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 04:20 |
| MinceR | so, do they glue them to a backing or what? | Dec 26 04:20 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: gluing not the way. http://www.azerbaijanrugs.com/care-guide/rug_proper_wall_display.htm The correct way is a pure pain. Yes hand sew the Persian Carpet to backing material. Why hand is to damage the min number of fibers in the process. | Dec 26 04:50 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.azerbaijanrugs.com | Proper Wall Display of Oriental Rugs [ http://ur1.ca/oczai ] | Dec 26 04:50 | |
| MinceR | that was my other guess | Dec 26 04:51 |
| MinceR | but then i figured that would show more and hold at fewer points :) | Dec 26 04:51 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: note the spaceing. Each stitch is over a foot apart in the center of carpet. | Dec 26 04:52 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: " Make one stitch approximately every 1 to 2 feet vertically across open areas in the middle of the rug, to provide additional support." That is why I included link. | Dec 26 04:54 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: the stitch spacing even on a weaken rug is still not that close on each other. | Dec 26 04:54 |
| MinceR | ic | Dec 26 04:54 |
| oiaohm | Of course color selection of stitch is also a factor for how bad it shows. | Dec 26 04:56 |
| oiaohm | As I said its a pure pain putting those rugs on display. Yes behind the backing can end up looking a horible mess of threads of different colors at times. | Dec 26 04:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: basically this is a job you cannot give to a sewing machine and get good results. | Dec 26 05:04 |
| *Guest19231 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 05:34 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 06:03 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest57382 | Dec 26 06:04 | |
| *Disconnected (Invalid argument). | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 26 09:12:00 2015 | ||
| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Dec 26 09:12:26 2015 | ||
| *Now talking on #techrights | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights is: TechRights.org | Channel #techrights for http://TechRights.org :: please also join channels #boycottnovell-social #techbytes and #boycottnovell | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| *Topic for #techrights set by schestowitz!~schestowi@unaffiliated/schestowitz at Sat Jun 9 18:16:19 2012 | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| *[freenode-info] if you're at a conference and other people are having trouble connecting, please mention it to staff: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp | Dec 26 09:12 | |
| *pidgin_log has quit (Quit: Leaving.) | Dec 26 09:20 | |
| schestowitz | > https://medium.com/@networksecurity/oleoutlook-bypass-almost-every-corporate-security-control-with-a-point-n-click-gui-37f4cbc107d0 | Dec 26 10:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-medium.com | #OLEOutlook - bypass almost every Corporate security control with a point’n’click GUI — Medium [ http://ur1.ca/oczjv ] | Dec 26 10:03 | |
| schestowitz | > | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | > another one from M$, in addition to their broken authentication, to | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | > explain why the media focus on GRUB | Dec 26 10:03 |
| schestowitz | "A bit of the AC communiqué is cited in the Article in German | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | translation. I translated it back in English, without attempting to see | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | how it read like originally. I didn't bother looking up the original. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | Feel free to insert the original passage if you find it. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | Schöne Bescherung, | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | xxx | Dec 26 10:41 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: stupid enough the GRUB flaw was insanely bad. Since the breach allowed undoing a few encrypted setups. | Dec 26 10:41 |
| schestowitz | needs physical access | Dec 26 10:44 |
| schestowitz | and not many distros affected | Dec 26 10:44 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: http://linuxgizmos.com/u-s-military-uav-control-systems-switch-to-linux/ You are not thinking about the level of system breached. | Dec 26 10:46 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-linuxgizmos.com | U.S. military UAVs migrate to Linux · LinuxGizmos.com [ http://ur1.ca/h9rqs ] | Dec 26 10:46 | |
| oiaohm | Breaching corporate secuirty is not like breaching a drone control terminal with access to drones with real arms. | Dec 26 10:46 |
| oiaohm | schestowitz: so yes there are reasons to be worried about the grub issue. | Dec 26 10:47 |
| oiaohm | The lack of auditing of core parts of Linux that are used in weapon control systems is kinda serous. | Dec 26 10:48 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/status/680708062185918464 | Dec 26 11:14 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@FOSSpatents: @schestowitz thx | Dec 26 11:14 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/greekemmy/status/680721164390543360 | Dec 26 12:12 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@greekemmy: @schestowitz @AssangeCase spot on! | Dec 26 12:12 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/zoobab/status/680732840238170112 | Dec 26 12:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@zoobab: @schestowitz it will be video streamed as well. | Dec 26 12:53 | |
| schestowitz | make static copy for dissemination | Dec 26 12:53 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: Konversation terminated!) | Dec 26 13:16 | |
| *Sosumi (~Lain@bl10-113-190.dsl.telepac.pt) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 13:21 | |
| amarsh04 | after all these years, Frank da Cruz is still supporting C-Kermit | Dec 26 14:45 |
| schestowitz | https://hacked.com/wiki/Dark_Web | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 14:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-hacked.com | Dark Web - Hacked | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| schestowitz | Dark web.png | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | Dark web is a term used to refer to thousands of web sites and communities which utilize the public Internet but are not accessible without specific software configurations, such as Tor and i2p. Tor and i2p are respectively their own darknets. Dark web is often confused with deep web, which is a term used to reference the millions of web pages which cannot be indexed by search engines. The reasons are many, but chief among them is that a | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | password is required to access much of the Internet. For this reason, Facebook is actually considered part of the deep web, as well as any forum which requires a username and password to login. Therefore, despite dark web being a significant portion of the deep web, for the sake of understanding it is best to see them as separate ideas. | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | " | Dec 26 14:52 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680753940636516352 | Dec 26 14:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @schestowitz blocking facebook almost sounds like a true workers paradise :). But for freedom it must be users choice to not go there... | Dec 26 14:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/ClimateRetweet/status/680759477814038529 | Dec 26 14:53 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@ClimateRetweet: RT "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of are already evident." https://t.co/bNVWhUMxmO | Dec 26 14:53 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: #miami "experiencing increasingly worse street flooding, the effects of #climatechange are already evident." https://t.co/AZPQN9oQav | Dec 26 14:53 | |
| *XRevan86 (~XRevan86@meowr.ru) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 15:13 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/OuchoSparks/status/680767098776358912 | Dec 26 15:16 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@OuchoSparks: @schestowitz Isn't the law meant to protect Power? #Useoflaw @blumo0n | Dec 26 15:16 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/SeaH2ONymph/status/680773551784390656 | Dec 26 15:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@SeaH2ONymph: House Bill 1494: prohibit gov't agencies acquiring, collecting, retaining personal/social media data w/out warrant https://t.co/grOuZNlq2e | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: New Hampshire Bill Would Ban NSA Activity Called the “Biggest Threat Since the Civil War” https://t.co/nnyNaOkFPG #nh vs domestic #stasi | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/blumo0n/status/680775421366022144 | Dec 26 15:48 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@blumo0n: @OuchoSparks @schestowitz It rather depends if one interprets for oligarchs or citizens. | Dec 26 15:48 | |
| *trn has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 16:43 | |
| *trn (jhj@trnsz.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 16:54 | |
| *DaemonFC (~DaemonFC@184.18.5.161) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 16:59 | |
| *DaemonFC is now known as Guest43319 | Dec 26 16:59 | |
| schestowitz | apple opportunism http://fortune.com/2015/12/22/apple-strong-crypto/ | Dec 26 17:29 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-fortune.com | Apple's Case for Strong Crypto - Fortune [ http://ur1.ca/oczyl ] | Dec 26 17:29 | |
| schestowitz | and two-faced lies | Dec 26 17:29 |
| schestowitz | http://blogs.wsj.com/cio/2015/12/23/the-morning-download-google-to-reboot-messaging-platform-amid-fierce-competition-newsletter-draft/ | Dec 26 17:30 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-blogs.wsj.com | The Morning Download: Google to Reboot Messaging Platform Amid Fierce Competition - The CIO Report - WSJ [ http://ur1.ca/oczym ] | Dec 26 17:30 | |
| *prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 17:34 | |
| *XFaCE has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) | Dec 26 17:35 | |
| *Guest43319 has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) | Dec 26 17:36 | |
| *prurigro (~prurigro@li365-7.members.linode.com) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 17:36 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/6797545497547612184 | Dec 26 17:41 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-No status found with that ID. | Dec 26 17:41 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/basenowels/status/679859828152389632 | Dec 26 17:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@basenowels: @Snowden thanks for updating my router diagram https://t.co/9oQuOFe9bg | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/Snowden/status/680064588130443264 | Dec 26 17:42 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@Snowden: The solution to the Juniper mystery seems to be for @matthew_d_green to apply to work at NSA's CES and @tqbf to go to NSA's NCSC. | Dec 26 17:42 | |
| *prurigro has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) | Dec 26 17:45 | |
| *XFaCE (~XFaCE@unaffiliated/xface) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 17:46 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/gnutelephony/status/680808946488217600 | Dec 26 18:03 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@gnutelephony: @Snowden @schestowitz can one get a fair trial by a jury that likely most have no idea what due process & a free society even looks like? | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/digital_human/status/680809316186730497 | Dec 26 18:04 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@digital_human: Definitly no https://t.co/6nHsk3BxQt | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: "Are terrorists really using encrypted messages to plot attacks?" https://t.co/mLPP2hSSjU evidence says no so far... | Dec 26 18:04 | |
| schestowitz | choosing a nut http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/courier/opinion/charen-does-conservatism-matter-in-republican-nomination-contest/article_6f58f5d9-1622-56b3-bf36-ca023cc76d70.html | Dec 26 18:32 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-www.yourhoustonnews.com | Charen: Does conservatism matter in Republican nomination contest? - Your Houston News: Opinion [ http://ur1.ca/od011 ] | Dec 26 18:32 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/lisbourne6/status/680832796538081281 | Dec 26 19:35 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@lisbourne6: @schestowitz @itvnews And yet cuts to flood defences I despair | Dec 26 19:35 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/LulhAndy/status/680833077191520257 | Dec 26 19:36 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@LulhAndy: @schestowitz @chrisgerhard if only we hadn't spunked all of that money on bombing the shite out of things in Syria... | Dec 26 19:36 | |
| schestowitz | floods around here.. | Dec 26 19:36 |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/sk8geek/status/680836428905984000 | Dec 26 19:52 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@sk8geek: Also #Yorkshire https://t.co/vqe8WrUGAj | Dec 26 19:52 | |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@schestowitz: 10,000 properties without power across #Lancashire and #Rochdale https://t.co/2Az2YhHK9A a national threat much more potent than terrorism | Dec 26 19:52 | |
| schestowitz | https://twitter.com/georgebaily/status/680847961492946948 | Dec 26 20:31 |
| -TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-@georgebaily: @schestowitz @alistapart it's quite interesting about developers "investing countless unpaid hours" interpreting law... Why should they! | Dec 26 20:31 | |
| *oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrights | Dec 26 21:00 | |
Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!
