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IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: Saturday, December 28, 2019

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MinceR 28 00:45
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectDec 28 00:45
MinceR 28 01:01
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schestowitzkaniini: viera is now  picking up postsDec 28 03:42
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzMore #Android Leftovers 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Android Leftovers | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitz#Android Leftovers 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Android Leftovers | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzLinux Kernel 5.3 Reached End of Life, Users Urged to Upgrade to Linux Kernel 5.4 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Linux Kernel 5.3 Reached End of Life, Users Urged to Upgrade to Linux Kernel 5.4 | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzHow to Make the Switch From Windows to Linux 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | How to Make the Switch From Windows to Linux | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzGoogle Chrome on Linux reportedly freezing after version 79 update 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Google Chrome on Linux reportedly freezing after version 79 update | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzHow Nitrux is Changing the Traditional Linux Scenario [Interview] 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | How Nitrux is Changing the Traditional Linux Scenario [Interview] | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzCopyQ â Advanced clipboard manager for Linux 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | CopyQ – Advanced clipboard manager for Linux | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitz5 best Google Chrome alternatives on LinuxDec 28 03:52
schestowitz 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | 5 best Google Chrome alternatives on Linux | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzMeet Calculate Linux 20!Dec 28 03:52
schestowitz 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Meet Calculate Linux 20! | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzGraphics: Mesa/LLVMpipe, DragonFlyBSD and NVIDIADec 28 03:52
schestowitz 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Graphics: Mesa/LLVMpipe, DragonFlyBSD and NVIDIA | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzGames: Dead Cells, X-Plane and Dead AgeDec 28 03:52
schestowitz 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Games: Dead Cells, X-Plane and Dead Age | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:52
schestowitzGames: Black Mesa, Minigalaxy, Date in the Park and MoreDec 28 03:52
schestowitz #gnu #linux #gamingDec 28 03:52
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Games: Black Mesa, Minigalaxy, Date in the Park and More | Tux MachinesDec 28 03:52
schestowitzDec 28 03:53
schestowitzLinks 27/12/2019: WireGuard 1.0 Soon, NewPipe 0.18.0, EasyOS 2.2 28 03:53
schestowitzDec 28 03:53
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Links 27/12/2019: WireGuard 1.0 Soon, NewPipe 0.18.0, EasyOS 2.2 | TechrightsDec 28 03:53
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schestowitzDec 28 04:23
schestowitzList of Differences Between Pop! OS and UbuntuDec 28 04:23
schestowitz 28 04:23
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | List of Differences Between Pop! OS and Ubuntu | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:23
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzCan We Build Trustable Hardware?Dec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Can We Build Trustable Hardware? | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzWine 5.0 RC3Dec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Wine 5.0 RC3 | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzThis is why smart displays run Ubuntu CoreDec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | This is why smart displays run Ubuntu Core | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzLatte Dock v0.10~ | Floating Docks And PanelsDec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Latte Dock v0.10~ | Floating Docks And Panels | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitztoday's howtosDec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | today's howtos | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzGames: VietDoom, OpenTTD, GRAL, GOG ConnectDec 28 04:24
schestowitz 28 04:24
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Games: VietDoom, OpenTTD, GRAL, GOG Connect | Tux MachinesDec 28 04:24
schestowitzDec 28 04:24
schestowitzkaniini: I think might not getting pushed through the fediveraseDec 28 04:41
schestowitzand that this is why it's not picked up by vieraDec 28 04:41
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oiaohm  Hmm wonder what other flaws ring devices have.Dec 28 05:36
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | mjg59 | Wifi deauthentication attacks and home securityDec 28 05:36
schestowitzthanks, I saw that yesterdayDec 28 05:40
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schestowitzlwn has mentioned it sinceDec 28 05:40
oiaohmI have always believed if you are going for security camera to go hardwired.Dec 28 06:12
oiaohmschestowitz:  I guess you were not think of it in combination with this.Dec 28 06:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | NO TITLEDec 28 06:13
oiaohm8 dollar device renders due to weak wifi usage renders those 200dollar plus ring devices worthless.Dec 28 06:15
oiaohmLet alone the other issues.Dec 28 06:15
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DaemonFC[m]It's creepy and unethical to even have one of tbose things.Dec 28 06:44
schestowitzshould be illegalDec 28 06:45
schestowitzI was giving out xmas cards days ago and one door had "Ring"Dec 28 06:45
schestowitzwhich means they took videos of meDec 28 06:45
schestowitzwith face recoDec 28 06:45
DaemonFC[m]The in laws have one.Dec 28 06:46
schestowitzand uploaded to 'cloud' in another countryDec 28 06:46
schestowitzfootage sent to police, army, companies.... all this for just giving a cardDec 28 06:46
schestowitz> The Debian votes should be in by today.  As mentioned it looks like theDec 28 06:48
schestowitz> death blow to general purpose GNU/Linux unless more developers somehowDec 28 06:48
schestowitz> move over to Devuan.Dec 28 06:48
schestowitzThe way I am reading it, systemd monopoly will be avoided at some level (if feasible):Dec 28 06:48
schestowitz 28 06:48
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Debian Votes to Stop SystemD 'Monopoly' | Tux MachinesDec 28 06:48
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superkuhExcellent.Dec 28 07:42
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oiaohmschestowitz: please get out of the habit of SystemD  that is not the spelling of it.Dec 28 09:28
oiaohmschestowitz: its like people using QT for the toolkit Qt.Dec 28 09:29
oiaohmThe vote say Debian will still consider alternatives. Dec 28 09:30
oiaohmBut those making alternatives really do need to understand what systemd has done right.Dec 28 09:30
oiaohmcgroups is one of those fun ones.   People forgot about linux kernel implement autogroups to try to provide scheduler with more information to make more correct choices.Dec 28 09:30
oiaohmBasically if you don't use cgroups around services.  You have to turn on autogroups and pray it gets it right.Dec 28 09:32
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | PostgreSQL: Two Necessary Kernel Tweaks for Linux SystemsDec 28 09:32
oiaohmI am really looking forward to this to land  the means to start processes in cgroups in targeted way.Dec 28 09:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-[PATCH 2/3] clone3: allow spawning processes into cgroups []Dec 28 09:35
oiaohmThis would remove a lot of the crap systemd has to do to get services into cgroups.Dec 28 09:35
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schestowitzkaniini: maybe some passive job isn't working and sending out or federating outwards from pleroma.siteDec 28 11:10
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MinceR28 103020 < oiaohm> But those making alternatives really do need to understand what systemd has done right.Dec 28 14:10
MinceRnothingDec 28 14:10
oiaohmThe usage of cgroups is in fact right because the scheduler is needing more information todo it job right as we are getting more cores to deal with.Dec 28 14:12
oiaohmMinceR: so claiming systemd does nothing right is ingoring the problem space.Dec 28 14:12
MinceRoiaohm: no, claiming systemd does that right is ignoring that cgroups doesn't work correctlyDec 28 14:13
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oiaohmMinceR: For the scheduler correction its was working right before systemd existed with cgroups.Dec 28 14:14
oiaohmFor the miss behaving services cgroup was not working right.Dec 28 14:15
oiaohmand for resource allocation cgroups was not working right.Dec 28 14:15
oiaohmMinceR: so no cgroups did work for a particular problem.Dec 28 14:15
oiaohmMinceR:  the scheduler having major troubles without grouping information only started really being properly diagnosed around 2011. Dec 28 14:19
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-A group scheduling demonstration []Dec 28 14:19
oiaohmMinceR: the resource allocations problem was fixed with cgroupv2.   Work to fix up the containment for miss behaving services is still on going with cgroups but its getting there now.Dec 28 14:21
oiaohmI guess you were presuming cgroups did not work at all right.   When cgroupv1 could at least do one thing right.Dec 28 14:22
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MinceRoiaohm: when they fix the parts that still don't work, they might break code depending on the parts that didDec 28 14:45
MinceRso, again, not something for "stable" codeDec 28 14:45
MinceRand in any case, not something for people who didn't ask for itDec 28 14:45
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oiaohmPeople running bigger systems were asking for the  scheduler  problem fixed as early as 2007.Dec 28 15:06
oiaohmMinceR: so this is not a case it was not asked for.    Its also why cgroupv2 has a cgroupv1 compatibility mode not to break old code working around the scheduler problem using cgroupv1 commands.Dec 28 15:06
MinceRi wasn't asking for itDec 28 15:31
MinceRyet they took over the distribution i used and tried to force systemd on meDec 28 15:31
MinceRpeople who want ibm's shit might as well run one of ibm's own distrosDec 28 15:31
MinceRoiaohm: especially considering that people like you keep complaining about how badly deadian implements systemdDec 28 15:32
oiaohmPlease note I did not say systemd was 100 percent good.  It did get something right.   That you may not have been asked for then but sooner or latter with systems expending in processing power the problem had to be taken on.Dec 28 15:33
MinceRyou're one of the people who want every "init system" to be turned into another systemdDec 28 15:34
MinceRwith all the systemd design flawsDec 28 15:34
kaniinischestowitz: no.  the container came up ipv6-only for whatever reason.Dec 28 15:34
oiaohmMinceR: There are many systemd design flaws I would love to see totally avoided.   As well as some of the other init systems design flaws totally avoided.Dec 28 15:35
MinceRbut do you recognize all of them?Dec 28 15:37
MinceRlike the superfluous new APIs that depend on dbugs, another broken piece of software?Dec 28 15:38
MinceRor having the worlds worst logger daemon tied into it?Dec 28 15:38
MinceRs/ds/d's/Dec 28 15:38
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Today in Techrights []Dec 28 15:38
oiaohmjournald turns out to be optional as people found out when they went looking in 2016 but you had to have something else pick up the socket files.Dec 28 15:39
oiaohmSo that journald would not socket activate.Dec 28 15:39
oiaohmThe dependency on dbus I would love not to exist. Dec 28 15:42
oiaohmYou can run systemd without dbus for embedded usage and it manages to use sockets and work.Dec 28 15:42
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: What If #RichardStallman Spoke Like #LinusTorvalds Does? #rms #gnu #freesw []Dec 28 15:44
oiaohmMinceR: dbus mostly exists because we have not really had good IPC in kernel.  I would love to see posix signals have a signal added that can in fact send a message between applciations now that we have pidfd so it can be given to the right process.Dec 28 15:48
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: How to Rotate Display in Ubuntu, Linux []Dec 28 15:48
oiaohmI still find it kind of insane how long we were using PID value to send kill messages to possible the wrong thing.Dec 28 15:49
MinceRthat's because it's more reliable than you thinkDec 28 15:49
MinceRespecially if you also check the command name for the PID firstDec 28 15:49
oiaohmpidfd is 100 percent dependable to give single to the right process.Dec 28 15:50
oiaohmEvery single time without question.Dec 28 15:50
oiaohmCheck command name of pid before sending single does not make sure it still on that PID when you send signal.Dec 28 15:50
MinceRpidfd is also very recentDec 28 15:51
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oiaohmHorrible part how not recent it is in other OS.  Freebsd got something like pidfd back in 90s.   Windows of course coming from VMS had it from start.      Sun had for solaris mocked it up as userspace emulation in 2008 and due to sale to orcale never got it implemented in kernel as fully functional. Dec 28 15:53
oiaohmpidfd in Linux is somewhere between a decade late to 3 decades late to the party.Dec 28 15:54
oiaohmOf course OS X has not even worked out there is a party yet.Dec 28 15:55
oiaohmMinceR: something else recent that is coming is the means to use clone3 to start a process directly in a cgroup instead of having to transfer something into a cgroup then run the target program that way.Dec 28 15:56
oiaohmOf course solaris with zones only had that in 2005.Dec 28 15:56
oiaohmFreebsd jails had the means todo that even earlier.Dec 28 15:57
oiaohmsystemd lot of ways was attempting to use stuff in the Linux kernel that really should have been in the Linux kernel and functional.Dec 28 15:57
oiaohmMinceR: I would say most if not all of the foundation API/ABI stuff that you need to in the Linux kernel to make a really solid service management solution will be in place before the end 2020.  We are very close now.Dec 28 16:01
oiaohmI really wish we did not need to go though a decade of hell to get to that point.Dec 28 16:02
MinceRcompare that "end of 2020" to april 2015, when the red hat moles in deadian forced the incomplete "solution" onto users as "stable"Dec 28 16:05
MinceRor june 2014, when red hat pushed it onto their "enterprise" customers as something that was supposed to be "really stable"Dec 28 16:05
oiaohmReally need to stop that with debian.Dec 28 16:06
MinceRshould have, yesDec 28 16:06
MinceRbut it's too lateDec 28 16:06
schestowitzkaniini: it works now :)Dec 28 16:07
oiaohmDebian did not take systemd in as a 100 percent stable solution.Dec 28 16:07
MinceRdeadian has broken every single thing in their titleDec 28 16:07
oiaohmTook it in as the best option out of a bad choice list.Dec 28 16:07
MinceRnopeDec 28 16:07
MinceRthey forced it on users using gnome's dependency on it as the excuseDec 28 16:07
MinceRand pretended they had to choose right then and pretended most options didn't even existDec 28 16:08
oiaohmNo the gnome dependancy came after the debian choice.Dec 28 16:08
MinceRand pretended to choose an "init system" which, as you yourself said, did not actually work at the timeDec 28 16:08
oiaohmNot before.Dec 28 16:08
oiaohmIf you look at the other options none of them worked properly at the time either.Dec 28 16:08
oiaohmSo nothing was in fact working right.Dec 28 16:09
MinceRall of them worked much better and still doDec 28 16:09
oiaohmI would not say that.Dec 28 16:09
MinceRsystemd is the only "init system" that keeps failing to shutdown whenever i try to use it, and i used it in a small minority of casesDec 28 16:09
MinceRit is also the only one that failed to bootDec 28 16:09
MinceRit's the only one that boots into an emergency mode prompt hidden on an inactive virtual consoleDec 28 16:09
MinceRyou keep saying sysvinit/rc keeps killing the wrong process, but i've never seen that happen, even though i use it a lot more than i use systemdDec 28 16:10
oiaohmSorry there were debain bugs where everything you have listed so far has happened to users with sysvinit.Dec 28 16:10
MinceRyeah, sometimes happened to other usersDec 28 16:10
oiaohmSo different level of luck.Dec 28 16:10
MinceRa fresh install of ubuntu _always_ boots into emergency modeDec 28 16:10
MinceRand the systemd vm i used regularly went into "stop job is running" with no way to interrupt it when i told it to shut downDec 28 16:11
danielp3344ubuntu is just some african dialect for 'I couldn't figure out how to install debian'Dec 28 16:11
MinceRno, it's an ancient african word for "I can't configure Slackware"Dec 28 16:11
danielp3344I've heard that tooDec 28 16:12
oiaohmstop job is running is a horrible trade off.Dec 28 16:12
oiaohmsysvinit did not show it but also at times would lead to database screw up and equal because data was not written to disc.Dec 28 16:13
oiaohmSo pick devil MinceRDec 28 16:13
MinceRi'd like to pick one, but red hat didn't let meDec 28 16:15
oiaohmMinceR: reality is most init systems before systemd were not handling stop jobs properly.Dec 28 16:15
MinceRthey destroyed the distribution i used from the inside to deny me that choiceDec 28 16:15
MinceRyet they all keep shutting down successfully, somehowDec 28 16:15
oiaohmsystemd does allow you to set a stop job timeout to 0Dec 28 16:15
MinceRand this is not even counting waiting for the NFS server forever, which cancerd also doesDec 28 16:16
oiaohmThat will cause it to do the same data damage as sysvinit did.Dec 28 16:16
MinceRah, now you bring up data damage, that's an interesting topicDec 28 16:16
oiaohmYou can set stop job 0 time out on a per service base.Dec 28 16:16
MinceR 28 16:17
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | #784720 - systemd: issues SIGKILL too early (risk of data loss) - Debian Bug report logsDec 28 16:17
MinceRsystemd is documented to have caused data loss regularlyDec 28 16:17
MinceRwhat's more, this was (according to systemd developers) because cgroups was incapable of doing the jobDec 28 16:17
oiaohmMinceR: that was still issuing SIGKILL latter than where sysvinit did.Dec 28 16:18
MinceRso yeah, if they could have waited until their "init system" was actually stable and could actually do the job of an init system (including fixing cgroups so it can work), i would have considered switching to systemdDec 28 16:18
MinceRbut with this history, i will never switch to systemdDec 28 16:18
MinceRi don't trust poettering, i don't trust red hat or ibm or youDec 28 16:19
MinceRoiaohm: the problem was not when they issued SIGKILL, the problem was that they never issued SIGTERMDec 28 16:19
oiaohmProblem is you don't compare what sysvinit does in the same case.Dec 28 16:19
MinceRi know very well what sysvinit/rc does in the same caseDec 28 16:19
MinceRit sends SIGTERM, waits a few seconds and then sends SIGKILLDec 28 16:19
MinceRwhich does the job correctlyDec 28 16:19
oiaohmSIGTERM due to poor signal handling sysvinit also fails to send that to all processes all the time.Dec 28 16:20
MinceRso you keep insistingDec 28 16:20
MinceRand yetDec 28 16:20
oiaohmThe same race in fact happens in systemd and sysvinit.Dec 28 16:20
oiaohmsystemd did make it happen more dpendably.Dec 28 16:20
MinceRi've used sysvinit/rc and never had the issues you allegeDec 28 16:20
MinceRi've used it a lotDec 28 16:21
MinceRi've used systemd a little and i had lots of issues with itDec 28 16:21
MinceRincluding failure to boot and failure to shutdownDec 28 16:21
oiaohmPlease note what I said about these races.Dec 28 16:21
oiaohmMaking a race happen more dependably is not exaclty a good thing.Dec 28 16:21
MinceRsomehow you shooting your mouth off about this for years didn't change how these systems behaved when i used themDec 28 16:21
oiaohmBut if you are attempting to fix it they are.Dec 28 16:21
MinceRmaybe you should consider a different strategyDec 28 16:21
oiaohmReally you should think of a different strategy.Dec 28 16:22
MinceRanother thing you're ignoring that the alleged issues with sysvinit/rc can only occur when the daemons it manages misbehaveDec 28 16:22
oiaohmYou pull out bugs that are in fact issues that exist in sysvinit.Dec 28 16:22
MinceRsystemd regularly fucks up even if everything else works properlyDec 28 16:22
oiaohmAlso that a presume that eveyrthing else is working properly.Dec 28 16:23
MinceRand (as its own developers admitted) it still can't deal with misbehaving daemonsDec 28 16:23
oiaohmSystemd deals with misbehaving deamons better on adverage that sysvinit and upstart was.Dec 28 16:23
oiaohmOf course for it to get right stuff in kernel had to be fixed.Dec 28 16:23
oiaohmBoy has that taken some fixing.Dec 28 16:24
MinceRyeah, that's what the brochure saysDec 28 16:24
MinceRunfortunately, it has nothing to do with realityDec 28 16:25
oiaohmfacebook and other parties started using systemd not because it was the force choice but because of the better monitoing and behavour handling.Dec 28 16:26
oiaohmSo yes you run into some trouble.Dec 28 16:26
oiaohmbut that does not mean it did not fix particular problems.Dec 28 16:26
scientesXRevan86, brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr 28 16:26
MinceRwhat does that have to do with me?Dec 28 16:26
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Cientos de Papás Noel establecen un nuevo récord de Rusia en el desfile de Año Nuevo - YouTubeDec 28 16:26
MinceRhow do my choices prevent dumbFuckBook and other incompetents from buying and using rHELL?Dec 28 16:27
MinceRor even fedora?Dec 28 16:27
MinceRthey could have had their beloved broken "init system" labeled "stable" in 2011 if they used fedoraDec 28 16:27
MinceRthere was no reason to take over debian for thisDec 28 16:27
oiaohmFacebook was interesting they went all out and got rid of all the old sysvinit scripts and went pure systemd service files.Dec 28 16:27
oiaohmItems like debian tried to go halfway in the middle.Dec 28 16:27
MinceRthe interesting part about dumbFuckBook is how incredibly annoying their website is for visitorsDec 28 16:28
MinceRfirst you get a massive fake popup telling you to register, and you tell it not nowDec 28 16:28
MinceRthen it turns into a massive bar occupying the bottom half of the screenDec 28 16:28
MinceRpushy like poettering's cultDec 28 16:28
oiaohmThey were not the only big party todo that on massive numbers of systems and have them run with less issues than the old sysvinit.Dec 28 16:28
MinceRand of course they push their "like button" malware on so many sitesDec 28 16:28
MinceRi don't get how people didn't just turn and leave their shitty site and let dumbFuckBook go bankruptDec 28 16:29
MinceRdoes dumbFuckBook even use deadian?Dec 28 16:29
danielp3344<MinceR "pushy like poettering's cult"> ._ODec 28 16:29
danielp3344 28 16:30
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-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Days since last facebook scandalDec 28 16:30
scientesBolivia violated the Mexican embassy in La PazDec 28 16:30
scienteshope nothing bad happens to the very nice Russian ambaassador who approved my visaDec 28 16:30
XRevan86scientes: What's that?Dec 28 16:31
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scientesMoscowDec 28 16:31
scienteslargest march of St Nick impersonatorsDec 28 16:32
XRevan86Any value?Dec 28 16:33
oiaohmMinceR: don't expect answer when you are not asking about the correct company names.Dec 28 16:33
oiaohmMinceR: dumbFuckBook  does not exist so how can I answer questionDec 28 16:33
scientesoh holy shit, there was a solar eclipse XRevan86 Dec 28 16:33
scientes 28 16:33
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-El último eclipse solar del año visto desde Asia - YouTubeDec 28 16:33
*scientes feels stupid in not knowing about it till afterDec 28 16:33
MinceRoiaohm: ah, now you demand respect for the abusers of humankindDec 28 16:34
MinceRoiaohm: you won't get it. fuck off.Dec 28 16:34
scientesXRevan86, i was just feeling how cold it is in most of russia right nowDec 28 16:34
scientesexcept St PetersbergDec 28 16:34
oiaohmMinceR: really there is nothing to gain from lowing yourself to their level of name calling.Dec 28 16:34
oiaohmMinceR: and I will not play along with it.Dec 28 16:35
XRevan86scientes: Barely below zero according to Weather Underground.Dec 28 16:36
XRevan86in MoscowDec 28 16:36
MinceRoiaohm: there is also nothing to gain from respecting those authoritarian criminal enterprisesDec 28 16:36
MinceRoiaohm: and so i won'tDec 28 16:36
scientes9 in Batumi right nowDec 28 16:37
oiaohmMinceR: using their right name then pointing out there defects means it turns up at times with google searchs and other things when people start going looking for information on them.Dec 28 16:37
scientesand it was like 15Dec 28 16:38
XRevan86scientes: You didn't show any signs of presence for some time, where've you been? :)Dec 28 16:38
MinceRoiaohm: it is going to be difficult to find this chat log via web search anywayDec 28 16:38
MinceRoiaohm: and the keywords will still be there since you pay them homageDec 28 16:38
scientesXRevan86, I rented an apartment!Dec 28 16:38
MinceRoiaohm: maybe you could also include the ® and ™ symbols to make sure.Dec 28 16:38
oiaohmMinceR: I have had chat logs turn up inside the first 4 pages of google search beforeDec 28 16:38
scientes5 rooms and balconyDec 28 16:39
MinceRi wonder if they've bought unicode code points for their logos yetDec 28 16:39
MinceRif so, you could use those tooDec 28 16:39
scientesand windows facing west and northDec 28 16:39
scienteswith a view of the black sea and the surfDec 28 16:39
MinceRoh, and corporate colors with mirc color codes!Dec 28 16:40
scientesI also just got back from Temple, Hanukkah just endedDec 28 16:40
oiaohmFunny enough ® and ™ markers at times seam to have reverse effect on search results on google to what you would expect.   Ie those present must be some third party don't list seams to happen.Dec 28 16:41
MinceRsucks to be them, i guessDec 28 16:41
MinceRalso sucks to be youDec 28 16:41
MinceRsince you'll be torn between paying our corporate oppressors maximum respect and making the conversation searchableDec 28 16:41
oiaohmI did not say maximun respect.Dec 28 16:42
oiaohmYou can be totally disrespectful and use a person correct name.,Dec 28 16:42
XRevan86scientes: Did you see what I wrote involving Zig? :)Dec 28 16:42
scientesXRevan86, link?Dec 28 16:42
MinceRi can, but i don't necessarily want toDec 28 16:43
MinceRoiaohm: do you use facebook?Dec 28 16:44
XRevan86I'll just give a tarballDec 28 16:44
scientesyou certainly got me curious :)Dec 28 16:44
XRevan86 28 16:44
scientesyou mean leviathian distance?Dec 28 16:45
XRevan86scientes: yesDec 28 16:45
XRevan86waitDec 28 16:45
XRevan86levensteinDec 28 16:45
*XRevan86 should read more carefully.Dec 28 16:46
scientesoh damn, it doesn't have anything to do with the devil?Dec 28 16:46
scientesheheheheDec 28 16:46
scientesjust some jewish dudeDec 28 16:46
MinceRi like leviathan distanceDec 28 16:47
XRevan86 28 16:47
MinceRalso lament distanceDec 28 16:47
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Vladimir Levenshtein - WikipediaDec 28 16:47
XRevan86scientes: Anyway, I've been trying out implementing this algorithm (the iterative version) on various programming languages, and looking how they fare.Dec 28 16:48
scientesXRevan86, I like how you got the allocator custom rightDec 28 16:48
XRevan86scientes: Zig is interesting here as it claims "Speaking of performance, Zig is faster than C."Dec 28 16:48
scientesI is (as long as gcc isn't way ahead of llvm at some specific thing)Dec 28 16:48
XRevan86and I don't see it happeningDec 28 16:48
scienteswell also mem.copy and mem.swap are not do right ATM XRevan86 Dec 28 16:49
XRevan86scientes: I've supplied a text file with numbers that I gotDec 28 16:49
scientesI have a PR fixing it, and it was rejected because andrew......Dec 28 16:49
XRevan86scientes: I saw the code and albeit it's freaky, I think it does the intended thing with arrays if I give it addressesDec 28 16:50
scienteshis has this perfectionist attitude in which he tries to take all the problem unto himself, and do more than he can doDec 28 16:50
scientesand then he ends up getting things wrong and having to drop his own promisesDec 28 16:50
XRevan86scientes: If it did the wrong thing (copy the whole array), it'd be very apparentDec 28 16:50
XRevan86because that would be done 225 000 000 timesDec 28 16:51
XRevan86oops, 15 000Dec 28 16:51
scientesanyways, it really does have the potential to be faster than CDec 28 16:51
scienteswell, actually...Dec 28 16:51
scientesits kinda bullshit right now because strict aliasing was abandonedDec 28 16:52
XRevan86scientes: I indeed like how explicit it isDec 28 16:52
scientesanyways, I do care about Zig and if Andrew learns how to manage the project better it should have a great futureDec 28 16:52
XRevan86A lot harder to just forget something and get UB.Dec 28 16:52
XRevan86but boy are casts done freakishly verboseDec 28 16:53
scientesI actually like itDec 28 16:53
XRevan86scientes: Compare to Rust, it also requires perfect type matchingDec 28 16:53
MinceR 28 16:53
scientesat least you don't have brain-dead implicit cast to/from floatDec 28 16:53
XRevan86"@intToFloat(f64, 12309)" and "12309 as f64"Dec 28 16:54
XRevan86scientes: And also about LLVM, Rust also showed better results %)Dec 28 16:54
scientesrust is a much more mature languageDec 28 16:55
MinceRlol no multiple inheritanceDec 28 16:55
scientesMinceR, no inheritance at allDec 28 16:56
scientesand no classesDec 28 16:56
scientesor methods (except as syntactic sugar)Dec 28 16:56
XRevan86MinceR: Go is also like that.Dec 28 16:57
MinceRlol no genericsDec 28 16:57
scientesMinceR, it has genericsDec 28 16:57
MinceRrust does have inheritance, but only singleDec 28 16:57
scientesand they are not even specialDec 28 16:57
MinceRyet someone's pushing it as a replacement to c++Dec 28 16:57
MinceRwhich i find laughableDec 28 16:57
MinceRgo doesn't have genericsDec 28 16:57
scientesthey are provided by a feature that just happens to provide genericsDec 28 16:57
scientessame with templatesDec 28 16:57
scientesthis is a awesome thing about zig: generics and templates are provided without anyone having to even know what those things areDec 28 16:58
XRevan86scientes: "it" == Rust, Go or Zig?Dec 28 16:58
MinceRi prefer the python wayDec 28 16:58
scienteszigDec 28 16:58
XRevan86scientes: "lol no generics" was about GoDec 28 16:58
scienteszig has comptimeDec 28 16:58
MinceRwhere i don't need generics because i can just accept values of any type and deal with them when convenientDec 28 16:58
scienteswhich provides generics and templateDec 28 16:58
XRevan86MinceR: In that would be fn foo(comptime T: type)Dec 28 17:00
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XRevan86MinceR: Why not the Perl5 way? :DDec 28 17:03
XRevan86Now that's The WayDec 28 17:03
MinceRbecause perl5 oop is incredibly messyDec 28 17:03
XRevan86MinceR: It is.Dec 28 17:03
MinceRi kind of got started with python because i didn't really want to touch perl5 oopDec 28 17:03
XRevan86MinceR: Functions there are also a joke.Dec 28 17:04
XRevan86hence the joksDec 28 17:04
XRevan86* the jokeDec 28 17:04
XRevan86MinceR: Functions there don't actually have an argument list, instead everything's supplied to a function goes into an array @_Dec 28 17:05
XRevan86Either that's inspired by bash functions or by @ARGV directly.Dec 28 17:05
XRevan86or rather, shell functionsDec 28 17:05
MinceRiirc you can still specify how many arguments you want to takeDec 28 17:06
MinceRand shift them into variablesDec 28 17:06
XRevan86MinceR: You can, through a magical hack called a prototype.Dec 28 17:06
XRevan86or dynamically throw an error when you didn't get the right amount, yesDec 28 17:07
XRevan86I have to mention , Perl5 does have a proper argument list, but in an experimental feature, which will likely stay experimental indefinitely.Dec 28 17:09
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-perlsub - perldoc.perl.orgDec 28 17:09
XRevan861. it's already been brewing there for ~5 years 2. it partially conflicts with "prototypes"Dec 28 17:10
XRevan86MinceR: About OOP, I'd imagine that Moops makes things much more palatable.Dec 28 17:16
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MinceR 28 17:28
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectDec 28 17:28
XRevan86scientes: This not very complicated snippet uses undocumented features of ZigDec 28 17:29
XRevan86scientes: Because there's barely any thing documented %)Dec 28 17:29
XRevan86MinceR: Unclear from the photograph whether that case is the official one.Dec 28 17:30
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MinceRthat's a back cover, not a caseDec 28 17:32
XRevan86rightDec 28 17:32
XRevan86Still can be unofficial.Dec 28 17:32
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DaemonFC[m]schestowitz There was an article the other day that said the Ryuk malware would stop encrypting Linux.Dec 28 17:37
DaemonFC[m]Then it turned out it's Windows malware and what they meant was it blacklisted some WSL folders.Dec 28 17:37
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DaemonFC[m]It did not exclude home for that matter. I'm not entirely sure how WSL works though.Dec 28 17:40
DaemonFC[m]Probably home is a symlink back to the C:\Users\WhateverDec 28 17:41
DaemonFC[m]That's exactlt what it would want to encrypt. Ignoring Windows folders where there is no user data makes the malware work better, so of course they'll exclude some WSL stuff. Who cares?Dec 28 17:42
XRevan86scientes: "I have a PR fixing it, and it was rejected because andrew......" – I cannot find your MR.Dec 28 17:45
XRevan86scientes: "its kinda bullshit right now because strict aliasing was abandoned" – it's not like I can make something better directly in the code.Dec 28 18:02
XRevan86No matter, it looks like a pointer swap with a temporary variable, that's not that bad.Dec 28 18:03
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-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux doesnt have Photoshop []Dec 28 18:05
XRevan86scientes: And std.mem.copy looks very dumb %)Dec 28 18:05
MinceR 28 18:06
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | IRCZ makes your life worth living Post objectDec 28 18:06
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Revealed: The BEST Ubuntu Release of the Past 10 Years []Dec 28 18:07
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: yes, I saw thatDec 28 18:10
schestowitzI also responded to that crap in techrights and tuxmachinesDec 28 18:10
schestowitzthis is coming from a typical anti-Linux siteDec 28 18:10
XRevan86scientes: But the "documentation" states "The optimizer is intelligent enough to turn the above snippet into a memcpy.", so I assume this is fine.Dec 28 18:10
schestowitzthey called it "Windows Linux"Dec 28 18:10
schestowitzwhich I found to be strageDec 28 18:10
schestowitzWSLDec 28 18:10
schestowitzI guess Linux is just "part" of Windows nowDec 28 18:11
schestowitzthey've been attempting to hijack the brands for a while, at least monthsDec 28 18:11
schestowitzthat article also said "folders'Dec 28 18:11
schestowitzLinux has no "folders"Dec 28 18:11
schestowitzit has directoriesDec 28 18:11
XRevan86"Windows' Linux" (with an apostrophe) makes slightly more sense.Dec 28 18:11
schestowitzso you see they mess around with terminology as wellDec 28 18:12
schestowitz<li><h5><a href="">Ryuk ransomware spares Windows Linux installs</a></h5>Dec 28 18:12
schestowitz<blockquote><p>A new variant of the Ryuk ransomware now blacklists Linux folders used on Windows 10, so as to avoid encrypting them.Dec 28 18:12
schestowitzThe change avoids affecting the folders for the Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL), which allows Linux to be installed as a virtual machine on Windows 10.Dec 28 18:12
schestowitz</p></blockquote></li>Dec 28 18:12
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Ryuk ransomware spares Windows Linux installs | TechRadarDec 28 18:12
schestowitzbleepingcomputer started it iircDec 28 18:12
schestowitzand then the clickbait sitesDec 28 18:12
MinceRMicrosoft LinuxDec 28 18:12
MinceRfrom the Microsoft-controlled Linux FoundationDec 28 18:13
schestowitznot yet :-)Dec 28 18:13
schestowitzwork in progressDec 28 18:13
XRevan86 28 18:13
DaemonFC[m]Technically, the WSL 2 Linux kernel does make that Linux kernel a Windows component.Dec 28 18:13
MinceRits workers kept in line by the threats of the Linux Foundation and Microsoft's SJW troll armyDec 28 18:13
DaemonFC[m]Not much different than CoLinux except Microsoft is distributing it.Dec 28 18:13
schestowitz 28 18:13
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Microsoft Employees Being Put in Charge of Linux | TechrightsDec 28 18:14
schestowitzLinus turned 50 todayDec 28 18:14
schestowitzhe's being thrown asideDec 28 18:14
MinceRhe's been thrown asideDec 28 18:14
*XRevan86 always uses "directory", but "folder" isn't new in GNU/Linux UI design at all.Dec 28 18:14
DaemonFC[m]I don't really care if there's some Microsoft code in Linux if it is under the GPL and either I don't have to use it or it was beaten into shape instead of being their usual garbage.Dec 28 18:14
schestowitzXRevan86: yes, it's wrongDec 28 18:14
schestowitzI saw that before in gnomeDec 28 18:14
DaemonFC[m]I remember with the hyperv driver, Greg KH kept on about how bad it was and Novell was paying him to fix it.Dec 28 18:15
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: MS is not just distributing itDec 28 18:15
schestowitzit is controlling and spying on itDec 28 18:15
DaemonFC[m]Really at the time it was Microsoft money going through Novell thaf was paying him, so....Dec 28 18:15
schestowitzand it is used to push WindowsDec 28 18:15
schestowitzDaemonFC[m]: Microsoft paid to fix itDec 28 18:16
schestowitzthrough NovellDec 28 18:16
DaemonFC[m]> it is controlling and spying on itDec 28 18:16
DaemonFC[m]Only anyone who uses WSL. Dunno why you would.Dec 28 18:16
schestowitzNovell was like a MSFT contractor also for OOXMLDec 28 18:16
schestowitzin Go-OODec 28 18:16
schestowitzwhen they added OOXMl support to itDec 28 18:16
schestowitzhowever poorDec 28 18:16
schestowitzthat helped with ECMA and ISODec 28 18:16
schestowitzThey bribed for 'inertia'Dec 28 18:16
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DaemonFC[m]"Hey, you know how Linux is 20% faster than Windows 10, hardly crashes, and doesn't get viruses? Now you can run it on Windows 10 and get all the disadvantages of Windows 10.".Dec 28 18:17
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: It's a developer thing.Dec 28 18:17
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Microsoft is trying to make development for Linux-based servers as comfy as possible.Dec 28 18:18
XRevan86so that you don't need to actually use anything Linux anywhere else, but your serversDec 28 18:19
XRevan86s/, but/but/Dec 28 18:19
DaemonFC[m]By putting it in the worst operating system ever?Dec 28 18:19
DaemonFC[m]Developers developers developers developers...developers developers developers!Dec 28 18:19
XRevan86DaemonFC[m]: Like that matters here.Dec 28 18:19
XRevan86Microsoft has diven in to GNU/Linux on servers, and in that reality they want as much of themselves as possible.Dec 28 18:22
XRevan86Boot your Windows 10, launch Visual Studio (Code), code some crap on C#, test it in WSL, push to a GNU/Linux server on Azure, run it with .NET Core.Dec 28 18:24
XRevan86^ this is why WSL existsDec 28 18:24
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: MPV 0.31 []Dec 28 18:28
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games: Barony, GB Studio and Teeworlds []Dec 28 18:31
MinceRsome steps are missingDec 28 18:45
MinceRlike "wait until Backdoors10 reboots 9 times because 'updates'"Dec 28 18:45
MinceRand "wonder why none of it works properly"Dec 28 18:45
MinceRand "look for documentation on the botNET Framework in vain"Dec 28 18:45
XRevan86MinceR: I outlined the idea which Microsoft is going forDec 28 18:46
MinceRalso, it isn't a GNU/Linux server, it's a systemd/Linux serverDec 28 18:46
MinceRah, that idea can be expressed much more simplyDec 28 18:46
MinceR"world domination, even if everything in it including us dies"Dec 28 18:46
MinceRalso, i thought they wanted to sell visual studio, not have people use vs code free of chargeDec 28 18:47
XRevan86MinceR: I think they'll continue focusing on VS Code more. It caught on.Dec 28 18:48
MinceRmaybe it's easier to gobble tons of RAM if they have crashium running underneathDec 28 18:48
XRevan86It promotes them, improves their chances of getting the "Microsoft stack" in more placesDec 28 18:48
MinceR 28 18:51
MinceRsince the "microsoft stack" sucks so hard, it's a lot easier to get the "microsoft stack" in more places by just taking over stuff that sucks less and turning it into part of the "microsoft stack"Dec 28 18:51
XRevan86MinceR: VS Code wasn't made in Microsoft initially either %)Dec 28 18:52
XRevan86so yesDec 28 18:52
MinceRyeah, they used one of their older tricks for thatDec 28 18:52
MinceRthey bought github :>Dec 28 18:52
XRevan86MinceR: VS Code caught on before that.Dec 28 18:53
MinceRtoo bad microshit is like ShitMidas and everything they touch turns into shitDec 28 18:54
XRevan86It's an absolute mystery for me whom is still being developed for.Dec 28 18:55
MinceRfor microslothDec 28 18:55
XRevan86 28 18:55
XRevan86"developed"Dec 28 18:55
MinceRor maybe for web hipstersDec 28 18:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Code frequency · atom/atom · GitHubDec 28 18:55
-TechrightsBot-tr/#techrights-Code frequency · microsoft/vscode · GitHubDec 28 18:56
XRevan86"for microsloth" – not anymore it appearsDec 28 18:56
XRevan86I wonder if people who work on are actually getting paid…Dec 28 18:57
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: today's howtos []Dec 28 19:01
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Plasma hidden gems: removable media []Dec 28 19:02
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: #Android Leftovers []Dec 28 19:03
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Linux 5.6 Plans, Linux 5.5 and 5.4 Benchmarks []Dec 28 19:08
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: A Brief History of Open Source Software []Dec 28 19:12
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: phpMyAdmin 5.0.0 is released []Dec 28 19:17
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Open Source Migrates With Emotional Distress []Dec 28 19:23
XRevan86scientes: If you mentioned that, because it's inefficient compared to C, then don't worry, this kind of overhead won't even register on the radar %).Dec 28 19:23
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: openSUSE Board election 2019-2020 []Dec 28 19:34
XRevan86What matters the most is looping performance, array semi-random access performance, variables and comparisons. Of course variable swapping, but not as much (outer loop).Dec 28 19:34
XRevan86Surprisingly a lot can be said about a language from this.Dec 28 19:35
XRevan86 like that a math language Octave doesn't have it of any decent performance in any way.Dec 28 19:35
-TechrightsBot-tr/ | Octave Forge / strings / [db1ee7] /inst/editdistance.mDec 28 19:35
XRevan86Because loops are slow, and the implementation they do provide is written in Octave %).Dec 28 19:36
-viera/#techrights-Tux Machines: Games and Retro []Dec 28 19:37
XRevan86And for some reason that's more sad for me than Raku (Rakudo/MoarVM) having the same issue.Dec 28 19:38
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MinceR 28 20:29
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DaemonFC[m]I figured out the wumping sounds the car waa making, MinceRDec 28 21:03
MinceRlolDec 28 21:03
DaemonFC[m]It wasn't the suspension, the tire, or anything terribly important.Dec 28 21:03
DaemonFC[m]One of the ebrake cables snapped and was hitting the rim as I drove the car.Dec 28 21:04
MinceRsounds like something importantDec 28 21:04
DaemonFC[m]Instead of having it fixed, it's zip tied to something else.Dec 28 21:04
MinceRat least if you like the car to stay where you leave it even if it's not a perfectly flat piece of roadDec 28 21:04
DaemonFC[m]The ebrake still works on 3 out of 4 wheels.Dec 28 21:05
DaemonFC[m]And that ain't bad.Dec 28 21:05
MinceRlolDec 28 21:05
DaemonFC[m]I don't feel like spending money to fix something I've never used on any car in 20 years of driving.Dec 28 21:05
DaemonFC[m]Which 75% still works anywayDec 28 21:06
DaemonFC[m]MinceR With all the broken shit that I had to replace after mom gave it to me....Dec 28 21:09
DaemonFC[m]I'm losing my appetite for expensive repairs.Dec 28 21:09
MinceR:)Dec 28 21:09
DaemonFC[m]It needs one more. A fuel line and the filter.Dec 28 21:09
DaemonFC[m]She left the original one on there so long that it's permanent as removing it would break the shitty rusted line that will eventually be leaking anyway.Dec 28 21:10
DaemonFC[m]It's causing an intermittent drop in fuel pressure that isn't terribly severe.Dec 28 21:11
DaemonFC[m]I thought eh just replace the filter, but it's fused to the line itself now.Dec 28 21:11
DaemonFC[m]It'll run until Monday when I can just have them replace the filter and the line.Dec 28 21:12
DaemonFC[m]MinceR I doubt it's done any serious damage. Those things can be surprisingly old and not be badly plugged up, which is why people don't pay any attention.Dec 28 21:20
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DaemonFC[m]Especially since gasoline is a lot cleaner tha  it used to be. Unless you're using filthy ran down gas stations all the time.Dec 28 21:21
DaemonFC[m]I always eyeball the station and assume if it looks bad on the outside their storage tanks probably aren't any good.Dec 28 21:22
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MinceR 28 21:54
danielp3344MinceR: You should get a catDec 28 21:59
danielp3344They're rather nice to have aroundDec 28 21:59
schestowitzmess to have around, tooDec 28 21:59
danielp3344schestowitz: not as bad as some petsDec 28 21:59
schestowitzand hard to go on holidayDec 28 21:59
danielp3344This is trueDec 28 22:00
schestowitzdanielp3344: true, you need not walk them outDec 28 22:00
danielp3344Having both cats and a dog the cats are far less workDec 28 22:00
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MinceRdanielp3344: i don't have a good place to host catsDec 28 22:04
MinceRthis apartment isn't even fit for human habitationDec 28 22:04
schestowitztry /usr/binDec 28 22:04
MinceRcats do visit the holiday house but i can't take care of them thereDec 28 22:04
schestowitzfedora is merging the bins for catDec 28 22:05
danielp3344:'(Dec 28 22:05
schestowitzwhich catDec 28 22:05
schestowitz/bin/catDec 28 22:05
schestowitzI see that Ubuntu does tooDec 28 22:05
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DaemonFC[m] 28 22:42
DaemonFC[m]Which cat? /opt/catDec 28 22:47
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DaemonFC[m]Whose cat? Our cat!Dec 28 23:10
DaemonFC[m]What do we want? Meow! When do we want it? MEOW!Dec 28 23:10
MinceR:)Dec 28 23:23
MinceR 28 23:24
MinceR 28 23:28
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XRevan86 28 23:38
XRevan86 28 23:38
XRevan86WhaaaaaaahDec 28 23:38
XRevan86Is this to avoid lambdas when doing x^2 in a map or something?Dec 28 23:41
XRevan86I.e. map(abs2, [1, 2, 3, 4]) instead of map(x -> x^2, [1, 2, 3, 4])Dec 28 23:43
XRevan86But even then the name is peculiar.Dec 28 23:45

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