| schestowitz | Asay has complained about it for ages and they needed Neelie Kroes to force MS to cough out docs | Aug 23 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | Now... Microsoft wants patents tax for /protocols/. | Aug 23 20:10 |
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| schestowitz | IOW, Microsoft wants to sell product and also tax its direct competitor. Just like the monopolistic railways. Should be illegal... | Aug 23 20:10 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: there's no smoking un suggesting that me-inc will just buy *NIX from Microsoft-'approved' channels, i.e. Novell and SCO. | Aug 23 20:14 |
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| *libervisco (n=daniel@tuxhacker/libervisco) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 23 20:18 |
| _Doug | What about using it on the clients ? what does the license say ? | Aug 23 20:19 |
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| _Doug | "Alfresco Software, implements Microsoft's SharePoint protocol t" | Aug 23 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, but remember these 30,000 pages or so of docs? | Aug 23 20:23 |
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| schestowitz | It's not just that, but in general, they align software patents next to them. They can elevate the price of competitors that way. It's what they intend to do to GNU/Linux, assuming Novell gets its way. | Aug 23 20:23 |
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| _Doug | "Deploying Microsoft Windows at the operating system level is the best option .. since Microsoft Windows is the only platform that supports Microsoft’s ECM, WCM, and collaboration platform (in addition to .. Alfresco)" | Aug 23 20:24 |
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| _Doug | http://download.microsoft.com/download/e/d/d... | Aug 23 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | From a software seller competing "man on man" it wants to evolve and become a licensing company (leech) that steals from all men. | Aug 23 20:24 |
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| schestowitz | It's funny how he needs to suck up to Microsoft while slamming them at the same time | Aug 23 20:25 |
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| schestowitz | "THOSE DAMN MICROSOFTIES, they don't give me access... not please, people Microsoft, can I please have access, thank you? I love you, Microsoft." | Aug 23 20:25 |
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| schestowitz | It's not just Alfresco by the way. Microsoft plays that game of punishment and reward with many rivals. | Aug 23 20:26 |
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| _Doug | "To become a proficient Linux administrator requires substantial skill and experience. Running Drupal, Alfresco, or other open source ECM, WCM, or collaboration tools on Windows does not require extra skill or experience" | Aug 23 20:26 |
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| _Doug | Windows is the new OPen Source .. :) | Aug 23 20:27 |
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| _Doug | "While Linux and Windows are interoperable, additional knowledge is required to integrate Linux servers into a Windows Active Directory environment" | Aug 23 20:27 |
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| _Doug | :) | Aug 23 20:27 |
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| _Doug | Please put your OPen Source software on our 'operating system level' so as you will pay us revenue to run your thirdparty software on YOUr machines .. :) | Aug 23 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | Is this from Alfresco? | Aug 23 20:36 |
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| schestowitz | They deploy a lot more on Red Hat than on SUSE. Still more on GNU/Linux than on Win32, IIRC. | Aug 23 20:36 |
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| _Doug | Mary Jo Foley on the baked in Microsoft integration .. | Aug 23 20:36 |
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| _Doug | http://newton.typepad.com/content/2008/06... | Aug 23 20:36 |
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| _Doug | '"On the server side of the house, Microsoft slowly but surely has been tying more and more of its products to SharePoint' | Aug 23 20:37 |
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| _Doug | "What does Microsoft mean by 'interoperable'? Anything that can run on multiple versions of Windows, the old saying goes." | Aug 23 20:37 |
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| _Doug | 'Horatio Gutierrez, Microsoft's vice president of licensing, said in an interview that the alleged open-source infringement is "not accidental".' | Aug 23 20:40 |
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| schestowitz | He used to blog for ZDNet. | Aug 23 20:41 |
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| schestowitz | He's no longer active there. Perhaps John Newton realised that ZDNet is a Microsoft turf (astro?). | Aug 23 20:42 |
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| _Doug | ot: Red Hat Hacked .. | Aug 23 20:44 |
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| _Doug | http://www.adtmag.com/article.aspx?id=23149 | Aug 23 20:44 |
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| _Doug | "Intruders capitalize on the geek factor of Linux and there are no licensing restrictions or elaborate security programs backed by big R&D teams; it's an anonymous community." | Aug 23 20:45 |
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| _Doug | Is this the end for 'oipen source' ? :) | Aug 23 20:45 |
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| _Doug | "Hensing [Microsoft] said he couldn't "imagine what the fallout would be" if programs such as Windows Update and Automatic Update servers "got pwnd [owned] like [RedHat]." " | Aug 23 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.flickr.com/photos/20... | Aug 23 20:46 |
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| _Doug | Didn't that happen some time ago ? | Aug 23 20:46 |
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| _Doug | photo deleted .. | Aug 23 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://adoguy.com/viewrant.aspx?id=2204 | Aug 23 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.flickr.com/photos/2047... | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| jose__ | i'm back | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.thecollegevoice.com/news... | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| MinceR | don't things like that happen to winblows all the time? | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| jose__ | how do you cancel / away | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| MinceR | there's no fallout because their customers don't care about quality | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| MinceR | jose__: /away without arguments | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | http://img99.imageshack.us/m... | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default... | Aug 23 20:47 |
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| jose__ | didn't seem to work to do / away again | Aug 23 20:48 |
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| MinceR | try /back then | Aug 23 20:48 |
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| MinceR | (it depends on the client) | Aug 23 20:48 |
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| jose__ | thanx | Aug 23 20:48 |
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| MinceR | np | Aug 23 20:48 |
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| schestowitz | A lot of those screenshots of microsoft.com hacked are gone. | Aug 23 20:49 |
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| _Doug | Wasn't Microsofts own servers hacked some time ago, got full access to the source ? | Aug 23 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft also fixed that XSS flaw. | Aug 23 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | It was there for many months. | Aug 23 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: when Microsoft gets hacked, it's hush-hush | Aug 23 20:49 |
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| schestowitz | Big difference wrt RHAT | Aug 23 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | I saw our servers here getting hijacked because they ran Windows. | Aug 23 20:50 |
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| schestowitz | 320,000,000 Windows zombies out there on a daily basis. | Aug 23 20:50 |
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| _Doug | It never happen, must unremember .. :) | Aug 23 20:51 |
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| _Doug | I'm talking about the internal development servers, that distributed the nightly builds .. | Aug 23 20:52 |
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| _Doug | bAck in FiVE .. | Aug 23 20:53 |
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| jose__ | schestowitz: open docs from microsoft is not good enough | Aug 23 20:58 |
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| jose__ | the docs are the fairytale that is told the public (not much different than ms marketing). the actual binaries they ship are all that count because of their monopolies. | Aug 23 20:59 |
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| jose__ | when interop fails, it's the new guy on the block that gets the book and looks suspiciously misimplemented | Aug 23 20:59 |
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| jose__ | fix: ".. that gets the "boot*" | Aug 23 21:00 |
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| jose__ | the binaries can appear to implement some interpretation of the docs some of the time etc.. inconsistently to any software besides ms's since the world doesn't know the secret handshakes | Aug 23 21:00 |
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| jose__ | ".. the ms binaries can appear..." | Aug 23 21:01 |
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| jose__ | the result is that anything but ms appears to be coded up by amateurs with no sense of quality control | Aug 23 21:01 |
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| jose__ | i don't know if matt asay realizes this (not sure if he is a developer at all by profession or hobby) | Aug 23 21:02 |
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| jose__ | he may realize this though.. this can be good or bad, but i think whether realizes this or not, whether has bad intentions or not, running the ms rat race helps ms. | Aug 23 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: the docs are poor, that's correct. | Aug 23 21:03 |
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| schestowitz | Like OOXML -- big in volume, poor in content. | Aug 23 21:03 |
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| jose__ | i may have gone over the top with the second comment on lt.. but every now and then it's good to go over the top http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_st... | Aug 23 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | They also did this with Java and other third-party developers. | Aug 23 21:04 |
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| jose__ | i agree there are doc problems.. but even odf can be exploited | Aug 23 21:04 |
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| jose__ | ooxml makes it easier to have an excuse to avoid antitrust attacks | Aug 23 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | Novell to was screwed in this way. Netscape also... slow startup and all... the memos from the Iowa trial show this. | Aug 23 21:04 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: Asay knows almost nothing about development. He's a solicitor. | Aug 23 21:05 |
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| schestowitz | Alfresco too is an illusion of competition and interop | Aug 23 21:06 |
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| schestowitz | Just like Loonlight [sic] | Aug 23 21:06 |
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| jose__ | the point i want to get across is that it's not the docs that is a problem.. it's the fact that ANY docs (even quality docs) are but paper in an ms controlled marketplace. | Aug 23 21:06 |
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| jose__ | the binaries are what count.. if you don't interop with monopoly binaries, you lose. | Aug 23 21:07 |
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| schestowitz | Should I mail this to Asay, you think? | Aug 23 21:07 |
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| schestowitz | I spoke to him yesterday. | Aug 23 21:08 |
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| jose__ | when dealing with corps, people need to remember that a person's word is meaningless.. tomorrow they can easily be replaced by the stockholders so that their word is moot. | Aug 23 21:08 |
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| jose__ | mail what? | Aug 23 21:08 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: Sharepoint protocols are not standardised. They will be expanded on the fly. It's a moving target. | Aug 23 21:08 |
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| jose__ | "protocols" are what are in the binaries not in the docs | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| jose__ | it's the binaries that count not the docs | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | Alfresco keeps going at the mercy of Microsoft. Shall Alfresco become too much of a threat like Java, Microsoft will get angry and throw toys out of the pram... or docs. | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| jose__ | and ms is not revealing source code | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| jose__ | .. yes, at will | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: mail a warning about this. | Aug 23 21:09 |
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| jose__ | i don't know the mindset of people.. what they know what they don't know.. i post about this frequently. i'm sure alfresco devs know the risks. this is why i hesitate to get too personal because in the end it might just be the alfresco or company X business that decides the potential short term gains and risks are worthwhile. | Aug 23 21:12 |
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| jose__ | ms lives off people willing to take short term risks for money today instead of a fight | Aug 23 21:12 |
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| jose__ | we are in a position to bixxx and rant 24x7 because we don't do any business with ms | Aug 23 21:13 |
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| jose__ | but many "sensible" business people may just prefer to take various risks | Aug 23 21:13 |
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| jose__ | i do hesitate to assume the worse when dealing closely with other humans | Aug 23 21:13 |
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| jose__ | worse -> worst | Aug 23 21:13 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I see what you mean. | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | Novell too needed the money. | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | I'm still trying to figure out just how badly Novell is cheating/fooling the SEC | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| jose__ | yes, and it's easy to attack "corporations" | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| jose__ | easy easier | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | It had bank problems shortly before the deal with Microsoft (cash infusion) | Aug 23 21:14 |
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| schestowitz | You can pretty much assume all the US-based (and other countries) too cheat in their finance. | Aug 23 21:15 |
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| jose__ | ? ! | Aug 23 21:15 |
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| jose__ | yes.. or at least rely on "interpretations" | Aug 23 21:15 |
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| _Doug | creative accounting .. not so much now with the SEC requirements .. | Aug 23 21:15 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2007... | Aug 23 21:15 |
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| _Doug | Novell/MS deal, that sure was a short term deal, if there ever was one .. | Aug 23 21:16 |
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| _Doug | I would have tried for investment for a percentage .. | Aug 23 21:17 |
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| jose__ | the ms novell deal(s) aren't necessarily limited to what is revealed in public | Aug 23 21:18 |
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| jose__ | this applies to everyone | Aug 23 21:19 |
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| jose__ | gates has ownership in small "anonymous" companies, for example | Aug 23 21:19 |
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| jose__ | and there is quid pro quo | Aug 23 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | Gates invests in trolls like Myhrvold, too | Aug 23 21:20 |
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| jose__ | "Whatever you make of this, it seems safe to conclude that we find patterns here. From similarities one can predict just as from history one can learn" :-) | Aug 23 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | I know he backs them, but it won't say if he does this financially. It's only natural to suspect this. | Aug 23 21:20 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, Novell is like Corel. | Aug 23 21:21 |
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| schestowitz | Should have learned from 'Old' Novell and Cisco too. | Aug 23 21:21 |
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| jose__ | i'll be away from desk for at least 4 or 5 hours soon. | Aug 23 21:22 |
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| schestowitz | I'll stay here, either way. | Aug 23 21:23 |
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| _Doug | LAy off Myhrvold, he invented sous-vide .. :) | Aug 23 21:23 |
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| schestowitz | If his left ventricle worked better, he could INNOVA~1 the PgUp, PgDn himself. | Aug 23 21:25 |
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| schestowitz | Macro controls for scrolling. Who would have THUNK? Must take those geniuses at Redmond. | Aug 23 21:26 |
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| _Doug | where wha macro controlls ? | Aug 23 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: I need to accumulate some shot-in-foot Nathan Myhrvold quotes for future reference. There should be plenty out there because the man is patents-insane. | Aug 23 21:27 |
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| schestowitz | Like, you know, when you flip paes with a finger and then use two finger to skip 10 pages of a book at a time...? Prior art... kind of 1980s, no? Maybe Gutenberg? | Aug 23 21:28 |
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| jose__ | patents are an insult to mankind | Aug 23 21:29 |
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| jose__ | it only makes sense in industries that have few inventors | Aug 23 21:29 |
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| jose__ | anything related to software or the internet etc has a ton of inventors | Aug 23 21:29 |
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| jose__ | plus the really good stuff are kept secrets... patents are used for their gov backed monopoly power so you want patents that include key things to keep people from following even if it's obvious | Aug 23 21:30 |
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| jose__ | with few inventors, few feathers are ruffled with bad patents.. also few inventors usually corrolates with high costs of development production etc | Aug 23 21:31 |
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| _Doug | 'Patent #: 5675811: "method for transmitting information over an intelligent low power serial bus' | Aug 23 21:31 |
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| _Doug | isn't that USB ? | Aug 23 21:31 |
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| jose__ | people near the forefront of human development are in a position to patent the most even if students or others would come to that very conclusion 5 years later or less | Aug 23 21:32 |
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| *moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovell | Aug 23 21:32 |
| schestowitz | PageRank is a patent | Aug 23 21:34 |
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| schestowitz | That's the digital equivalent of what academia did (in an 'analog' fashion) for centuries. | Aug 23 21:34 |
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| jose__ | all of these "from the analog world to the digital world" patent conversions/rebirths should automatically fail the "obviousness" test | Aug 23 21:37 |
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| jose__ | "JUST ONE MONTH before the pact Novell was about to be delisted from Nasdaq and was having problems with the Wells Fargo Bank. I think the re-animator injection of 348 million by Microsoft converted Novell in the perfect zombie to perform its masters at Redmond commands." | Aug 23 21:38 |
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| jose__ | another side of this is that novl stockholders overlap with msft stockholders.. what a nice way to make bucks if you get one of your companies to bail out the other one at the 11th hour when main street amateur investors have sold their shares out of fear. | Aug 23 21:39 |
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| jose__ | ditto with scox | Aug 23 21:39 |
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| jose__ | the game can continue on and on | Aug 23 21:39 |
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| _Doug | Which stockholders overlap, do you have an URLs ? | Aug 23 21:40 |
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| jose__ | in general the big money must be spread | Aug 23 21:40 |
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| jose__ | eg, | Aug 23 21:40 |
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| jose__ | it was stated in the news that almost all yahoo shareholders (top 20 except 1) held more in msft | Aug 23 21:41 |
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| jose__ | you can't plop all your money when you are a huge hedgefund or co or individual ..into a single company or even a small group of companies. you must spread the wealth | Aug 23 21:41 |
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| schestowitz | I know a site that tracks investors, but going 2 years back might be hard. | Aug 23 21:42 |
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| jose__ | the ups and downs and timings work to the advantage of the big money insiders/dealmakers | Aug 23 21:42 |
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| _Doug | It would have been simpler for MS to buy Novell outright, but then again it wouldn't be an IP protected Linux company .. | Aug 23 21:42 |
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| schestowitz | Just left this comment about Microsoft insiders (they call them "refugees and they spread FUD and Mono): http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/23/be... | Aug 23 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: they do it in phase, IMHO. | Aug 23 21:43 |
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| _Doug | Ns isn't afraid of going back in court to face monopoly charges (again) after al lthey tried to buy Yahoo, mainly to get their hands on the search business .. | Aug 23 21:43 |
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| schestowitz | First the gentle news. It's like Chinese torture. | Aug 23 21:43 |
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| jose__ | _Doug: one reason not to buy novell is to avoid antitrust probs. | Aug 23 21:43 |
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| jose__ | another reason is that novell is more trustworthy than a clear ms subsidiary | Aug 23 21:44 |
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| jose__ | another is that novell may not be on board as much as we sometimes fear.. or at least reserve their right to actually compete.. | Aug 23 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: true, that's what Microsoft needs. | Aug 23 21:44 |
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| schestowitz | Watch what it did to Xen with Citrix. | Aug 23 21:44 |
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| jose__ | yup | Aug 23 21:45 |
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| schestowitz | It escapes the GPL, the regulators and it needn't spend money actually buying Citrix. | Aug 23 21:45 |
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| schestowitz | It's a duopoly. | Aug 23 21:45 |
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| jose__ | and to have it be done with ex-softies just turns my stomach.. maybe it's hard to find troopers to go along. | Aug 23 21:45 |
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| _Doug | Novell: Yea, it's more usefull in the chicken Coop .. | Aug 23 21:45 |
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| jose__ | some people are so greedy they go to extremes not to share or grease palms.. ms will share only after all and then some of its options have been exhausted.. | Aug 23 21:46 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: Black Duck's Microsoft CEO jumped ship just after a huge sin for the GPL | Aug 23 21:47 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/16/dou... | Aug 23 21:47 |
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| jose__ | it's vomit inducing to see all the deceptions they commit.. i mean, goodness, pay someone off or something ;-) | Aug 23 21:47 |
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| jose__ | yup | Aug 23 21:47 |
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| jose__ | wonder what that is about.. anyway, i learned about that from BN :-) | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | /s/sin/win/ | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| jose__ | at all costs and for keeps | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | Carla hasn't linked to BN in a while. I wonder why. | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| jose__ | ie, share nothing at all | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| schestowitz | Not even in relation to the Novell/Microsoft news | Aug 23 21:48 |
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| jose__ | "sharepoint" | Aug 23 21:49 |
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| jose__ | carla, sometimes links.. she's been a little heavier on the tech stuff | Aug 23 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | HOWOs. *cough* | Aug 23 21:49 |
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| schestowitz | HOWTOs | Aug 23 21:50 |
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| jose__ | i can understand that carla may not want to give any specific new source too much time.. lt becomes an easy target if it becomes too one-sided.. point is that people on lt know about BN and what is going on.. at least to some extent. most things on bn are also covered elsewhere, so.... | Aug 23 21:51 |
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| jose__ | anyway, don't mean to speak for carla or defend her or anything.. we'll see. i think she is doing fine. | Aug 23 21:52 |
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| schestowitz | Brian sort of vanished in LDN. No word from this project yet. | Aug 23 21:52 |
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| jose__ | bn has a different focus so i expect different things from schestowitz .. :-) | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | DC Barric is there to 'police' her. *LOL* | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| jose__ | DC or CD? | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | Whicheevr. | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | "This is not Linux | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | "I don't like this." | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | "Good article" | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| jose__ | yeah, i noticed of most regulars he has been a little less satisfied with carla | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| schestowitz | "No. Yes. Microsoft steals, cheats and lies" | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| jose__ | not a big difference.. maybe it's just coincidence over what i have read | Aug 23 21:53 |
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| jose__ | yeah, that's the poster. | Aug 23 21:54 |
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| schestowitz | It's funny to me sometimes. I like your comments there BTW. I read them. | Aug 23 21:54 |
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| jose__ | :) | Aug 23 21:54 |
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| jose__ | i'm not the best writer | Aug 23 21:54 |
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| jose__ | but i have been improving | Aug 23 21:54 |
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| jose__ | i tend to rely on volume to kill off opposition (j/k) | Aug 23 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | If it's the same topic, it gets easier and more repetitive to explain. | Aug 23 21:55 |
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| jose__ | exactly | Aug 23 21:55 |
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| jose__ | practice makes perfect | Aug 23 21:55 |
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| jose__ | that's the trick | Aug 23 21:55 |
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| schestowitz | But it's better to link than to repeat. | Aug 23 21:56 |
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| jose__ | though some really do handle conversations and writing in general better.. you have decent control i think | Aug 23 21:56 |
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| jose__ | don't judge "how it should be done" by what I do. | Aug 23 21:56 |
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| schestowitz | In BN I link whenever I think I covered a point I am poised to write about. So each small article has an 'expansion' of points via hyperlinks. | Aug 23 21:56 |
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| jose__ | i actually use these forums to iron out ideas.. i incorporate what i see others post quickly too.. if i like it. | Aug 23 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | I just write as I think or speak, then proofread, assuming it's a blog and not USENET or IRC. | Aug 23 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | Articles are different because you must think before each sentence. | Aug 23 21:57 |
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| jose__ | my excuse for sloppiness is that i post on a forum.. i don't have an official blog or get paid etc.. anyway, back to novell | Aug 23 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, on topic. | Aug 23 21:57 |
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| schestowitz | Do you reckon it's takeover target or just another Citrix? | Aug 23 21:58 |
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| schestowitz | Sun is ripe for takeover, but by whom? | Aug 23 21:58 |
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| jose__ | people like you follow this and draw interesting conclusions.. i generally take an attitude (eg, in this specific case) that it might not matter.. but the key is to avoid ms | Aug 23 21:59 |
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| jose__ | and be on guard | Aug 23 21:59 |
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| _Doug | Citrix: it's irrelevant whether NS buys then outright, MS/Citrix are joined at the hip, only it's the MS head that's working the limbs .. | Aug 23 22:00 |
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| _Doug | ot: ( I can't see the keys :)) | Aug 23 22:01 |
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| jose__ | yeah, citrix keeps those that would replace windows from having to do so.. ms doesn't cloud their message this way. | Aug 23 22:01 |
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| _Doug | Citrix, special 'partner', full access to MS secrets, third parties at a disadvantage .. same old tune .. | Aug 23 22:02 |
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| jose__ | novell would be one level beyond citrix in that now you do in fact replace windows but through a friendly company and one that is proving its worth by making sure a bunch of higher level dependencies will exist. | Aug 23 22:02 |
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| _Doug | Yea, and Ms gets to sing the interoperability song .. | Aug 23 22:03 |
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| jose__ | antitrust authorities and customers that may not realize the relationships feel better if ms officially works through "partners" | Aug 23 22:04 |
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| _Doug | amd pop up at 'open source' conferences .. or even organize some .. :) | Aug 23 22:04 |
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| _Doug | MS that is .. organizing conferences .. | Aug 23 22:04 |
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| jose__ | ms wants to redefine FOSS. | Aug 23 22:05 |
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| jose__ | to be at the center of the definition | Aug 23 22:05 |
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| jose__ | once people learn to trust "foss" they find out it's all about ms (that would be the effect) | Aug 23 22:06 |
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| jose__ | ms redefined "share" .. sharepoint shared source etc | Aug 23 22:06 |
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| jose__ | War is Peace etc | Aug 23 22:06 |
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| _Doug | 'Microsoft's chief research and strategy officer Craig Mundiewill take the stage later today .. At Brainshare' | Aug 23 22:06 |
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| _Doug | NArch 2007 .. | Aug 23 22:06 |
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| jose__ | brainshare ! lol | Aug 23 22:07 |
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| _Doug | brainwash . .:) | Aug 23 22:07 |
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| jose__ | sharing is we keeping everything | Aug 23 22:07 |
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| jose__ | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... | Aug 23 22:07 |
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| _Doug | let me share your IP litigation pain .. :) | Aug 23 22:08 |
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| jose__ | yeah, "let us share for you" | Aug 23 22:08 |
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| _Doug | Some people I don't know is threatening you, for a piece of the action, me and the boys will 'protect' you .. :) | Aug 23 22:08 |
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| jose__ | we love open source.. you bsd, we'll love you. | Aug 23 22:09 |
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| jose__ | let us share *your* money | Aug 23 22:09 |
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| _Doug | of course the Open Source crowd knocking Novell is also good .. | Aug 23 22:09 |
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| jose__ | and your information | Aug 23 22:09 |
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| _Doug | for Microsoft .. | Aug 23 22:10 |
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| jose__ | yes, some organisms use their appendages that way. | Aug 23 22:10 |
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| _Doug | well if you/we support the NS/Novell deal, we strengthen MSs hand, if we attack Novell, we strengthen MSs hand .. | Aug 23 22:11 |
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| jose__ | they can regenerate them once after they have been used to escape harm. | Aug 23 22:11 |
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| jose__ | and the novell top brass will likely find a new home somewhere | Aug 23 22:11 |
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| jose__ | demand ISO certification... laugh at ISO certification.. | Aug 23 22:12 |
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| jose__ | damned if we do damned if we don't | Aug 23 22:12 |
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| jose__ | pee in everyone else's pool | Aug 23 22:12 |
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| _Doug | At the moment Novell is a pilot fish to MSs shark, where MS goes, Novell has to swim along .. not a good position for any company to be in .. | Aug 23 22:12 |
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| jose__ | buy windows/vista etc is holy. | Aug 23 22:12 |
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| *schestowitz *LOL* "let me share your IP litigation pain .. :)" | Aug 23 22:12 |
| jose__ | fix: "but windows/vista etc is holy" | Aug 23 22:13 |
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| _Doug | What *is* Novell doing recommending Vista .. I mean they have a desktop solution .. !!!! | Aug 23 22:13 |
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| _Doug | What msg is that sendign to the market ? | Aug 23 22:13 |
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| _Doug | What the f**k are they thinking ? | Aug 23 22:14 |
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| _Doug | The management I mean .. | Aug 23 22:14 |
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| jose__ | Novell is executing on the 300+ million USD investment made on them. | Aug 23 22:14 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: they have an implicit agreement. Microsoft sells SUSE and shreds RHEL. In return, Novell helps Vista migrations. | Aug 23 22:14 |
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| _Doug | "let me share your IP litigation pain": it's a reworking of a quotation from StarTrek where the mutant Vulcan brainwashes everyone :) | Aug 23 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | BrainShare is a Novell event | Aug 23 22:15 |
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| jose__ | novell is an ms satellite | Aug 23 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft wasn't there though (in 2008) | Aug 23 22:15 |
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| jose__ | ;-) | Aug 23 22:15 |
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| schestowitz | I followed it closely and it didn't seem like Microsoft attended. | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| jose__ | not there in body, you mean. | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: yes, not physically there. | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | Is SharePoint Shared source really? | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| schestowitz | If so, that's news to me./ | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| jose__ | maybe we should take a hint.. sometimes you "pay least attention" to what you think is more crucial than other things. | Aug 23 22:16 |
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| jose__ | don't know.. "sharepoint" and "shared source" each abuse the meaning of the word "share" | Aug 23 22:17 |
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| _Doug | MS did organize other open source events, | Aug 23 22:18 |
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| jose__ | ..that's all i meant. | Aug 23 22:18 |
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| jose__ | ms redefined lots of things. | Aug 23 22:18 |
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| jose__ | windows. | Aug 23 22:18 |
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| jose__ | redefine and/or absorb once these words/brands/etc have achieved mindshare in the market | Aug 23 22:19 |
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| _Doug | 'Brad Smith Keynote: Open Source Business Conference' | Aug 23 22:19 |
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| _Doug | http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/e... | Aug 23 22:19 |
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| _Doug | Ahhhh ... :) | Aug 23 22:19 |
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| jose__ | "free" is tricky since it tends to imply $0, but they might find a creative way to steal it.. stay tuned. | Aug 23 22:19 |
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| _Doug | Microsoft | Open Source | Business ... seee ... get the words in the one sentence . .and repeat .. repeat .. repeat .. MICROSOFT OPEN SOURCE !!!! | Aug 23 22:20 |
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| jose__ | during the give 1 get 1 OLPC offer, they ran ads along the lines "buy 1 get 2" to sell some product that you get for free through foss. | Aug 23 22:21 |
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| jose__ | so they mocked OLPC by appearing to give customers more. | Aug 23 22:21 |
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| jose__ | yet they were giving away something that customers would get for $0 through foss. | Aug 23 22:22 |
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| jose__ | thus they come out looking like they give, while OLPC, the charity, comes out bad .. (and foss is not mentioned at all) | Aug 23 22:22 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: Microsoft made up OSBC... or made it happen | Aug 23 22:23 |
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| schestowitz | Asay told me this. Microsoft was among the first to throw money at it. It sponsors just about any FOSS conference now. Linux /TOO/. It's like a dog sniffing FOSS developers and chasing them while wagging that tail. | Aug 23 22:24 |
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| _Doug | Well yea .. but for anyone who gets their news from FOX .. all they see is MS OSBC .. see .. it's about mindshare .. er advertising .. | Aug 23 22:24 |
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| _Doug | ot: what did the MS/Sun deal do for Sun ? | Aug 23 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | OOo protection. | Aug 23 22:25 |
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| schestowitz | 2004 you mean? | Aug 23 22:25 |
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| jose__ | <schestowitz: no, it's like the devil in the shape of a dog... | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| schestowitz | Actually make tat StarOffice. And some other things like protocols, I think. | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| _Doug | Do they speak a different version of English out there at 1 MS Way: "we believe that there is a role for proprietary innovation in protocols as wel" | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: I was going to say devil's tail, but I try to keep polite. :-) | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| _Doug | Brad Smith says: .. :) | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| schestowitz | he.viewimages.com/xc/3198984.jpg?v=1&am p;c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4 AD9FDB9CF193B3EA2C03450C9486236837 3C70DA1D715A5397277B4DC33E | Aug 23 22:26 |
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| schestowitz | http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/3198984.jpg?v=... pardon me) | Aug 23 22:27 |
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| jose__ | and i was going to add a smily face, but decided to leave the politeness to you. | Aug 23 22:27 |
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| _Doug | Wasn't he supposed to fall on his sword ? | Aug 23 22:27 |
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| _Doug | "You don't need a patent license for the development work for these protocols" | Aug 23 22:29 |
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| _Doug | "If, however, you are a commercial company .. we ask you to ask yourself whether you need a patent license .. and we'll make it cheap, with very low royalties" | Aug 23 22:29 |
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| twitter | M$'s version of sharing is, "What's ours is ours and what's yours is ours." | Aug 23 22:30 |
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| _Doug | It's like they have a special compiler out there at MS, you put in standard English and out comes thiis disengenious, distorted, dishonest waffle .. | Aug 23 22:30 |
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| _Doug | The protocols are free, except they're not .. | Aug 23 22:31 |
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| twitter | That helps clarify the meaning of shared source. | Aug 23 22:31 |
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| jose__ | tax | Aug 23 22:32 |
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| _Doug | translation: we let you develop applications for the MS platform, and then pay Microsoft for eveery copy you sell to third parties .. | Aug 23 22:32 |
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| jose__ | you can't go out of business if you can tax everyone | Aug 23 22:32 |
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| jose__ | even an initially low tax | Aug 23 22:32 |
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| schestowitz | _Doug: they try to game Kroes & Commission at the time. Same with Novell. They screwed Samba, leaving it alone. | Aug 23 22:32 |
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| jose__ | your competitors go out of business though because they can't tax. | Aug 23 22:33 |
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| _Doug | We also convince you that *we* are doing you a favor .. | Aug 23 22:33 |
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| jose__ | then the tax rises. | Aug 23 22:33 |
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| schestowitz | GNU/Linux is like a Switzerland to developers. | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| jose__ | the key will be to spread the message of the real ms to "regular people". | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| twitter | There's no favor being done with non free software. | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| schestowitz | It's neutral. The same goes for OEMs. | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| jose__ | operating systems are "regular people" topics discussed at the dinner table, so we have to get creative. | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| schestowitz | jose__: "People" as in "people-ready" | Aug 23 22:34 |
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| jose__ | hey, is seinfeld available? | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| _Doug | "we believe that patents are best sorted out by industry leaders so that developers and customers don't have to deal with these issues themselves" | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| twitter | It does not matter if ownership of software comes from NDAs or patents, it's all hostile to the user. | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| jose__ | ;-) | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | Novell does the customers a "favour" | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| jose__ | easy easier | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| jose__ | be a hero | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | They want to "take these issue off the table". Hovsepsian's words, IIRC. | Aug 23 22:35 |
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| schestowitz | Hove-spin | Aug 23 22:36 |
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| twitter | Eliminating software patents would be a better way to relieve developers and customers. | Aug 23 22:36 |
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| jose__ | _Doug: market fixing and/or raising the hurdle to keep most players out. | Aug 23 22:36 |
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| schestowitz | In Europe, Microsoft is running ACT (lobbying/shill arm) to demand similar royalties as law. | Aug 23 22:36 |
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| jose__ | twitter: stop it with the straight talk! | Aug 23 22:37 |
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| _Doug | Yea, if you are a small five man outfit, and you have to hire a lawyer to check the code, costs are going to go up . .:) | Aug 23 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | I don't know if you guys have been following this. | Aug 23 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | They even called the BSA to pressure in the EU for this time of non-ZRAND | Aug 23 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | Asay was rather furious but only in a gentle way. | Aug 23 22:37 |
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| schestowitz | Alfresco customers are in Europe (many of them) and Microsoft wants to privilege to change for imaginary funnels (protocols) | Aug 23 22:38 |
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| schestowitz | *charge, not change. | Aug 23 22:38 |
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| jose__ | my worry then is that microsoft, the bad cop, creates the artificial scarecities that the others then get a crack at. | Aug 23 22:39 |
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| jose__ | ms has lived off this type of abuse, leverage,.. | Aug 23 22:39 |
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| _Doug | There are other IP litigation players, remember Blackberry .. | Aug 23 22:40 |
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| jose__ | .. and deception. The "partners" almost always lose.. unless maybe they are run by an ex-softie perhaps. | Aug 23 22:40 |
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| jose__ | maybe the "protection" ms gives companies involve an ex-softie running the show. | Aug 23 22:41 |
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| twitter | Here's a funny I saw yesterday. The M$ Airplane. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eclipse_500 | Aug 23 22:42 |
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| twitter | It's run by an ex softie. Check the business methods. Fast and lose FAA certs | Aug 23 22:43 |
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| _Doug | breaking news: IE 8 to wipe out phishing .. :) | Aug 23 22:44 |
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| _Doug | http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08... | Aug 23 22:44 |
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| jose__ | twitter: ms can/will leverage their os+X monopoly to take over the private jet business | Aug 23 22:44 |
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| _Doug | "the filter only acts on web pages that can result in the execution of scripts" | Aug 23 22:45 |
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| jose__ | they have no bounds. | Aug 23 22:45 |
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| _Doug | isn't that something like noscript ? | Aug 23 22:45 |
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| jose__ | people take them for granted.. hey, look at bill gates and the butterflies and rolling hills. | Aug 23 22:45 |
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| twitter | Eclipse is not doing so well ... http://canadianpress.google.com/arti... | Aug 23 22:45 |
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| _Doug | In the movie "the Island", the 'directory' ran on MS live search, complete with butterfly .. :) that's set in the future, so must be true .. :) | Aug 23 22:46 |
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| twitter | I saw a better article that talked about how they were only going to let go of "temp" workers and people who had been with the company less than six months. | Aug 23 22:46 |
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| twitter | perma temps, another M$ business innovation. | Aug 23 22:46 |
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| _Doug | In terms of business, MS only acts like anyother business, keep the costs down, outsource etc .. | Aug 23 22:47 |
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| twitter | No, I think they have been a real leader in screwing employees. It's sort of like Walmart and Chinese imports. | Aug 23 22:48 |
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| dsmith_ | heh | Aug 23 22:48 |
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| dsmith_ | good point witter | Aug 23 22:49 |
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| dsmith_ | *twitter | Aug 23 22:49 |
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| dsmith_ | when I ran IT at the office my budget was $5000/year | Aug 23 22:49 |
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| dsmith_ | wanna know what it is now? | Aug 23 22:49 |
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| dsmith_ | lol | Aug 23 22:49 |
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| jose__ | to last in ms you have to be made of a certain substance. everyone else is temp i suppose. temp clearance and temp treatment.. actually ms sells its brand. who wouldn't want to work at ms, even if as a slave, right? | Aug 23 22:50 |
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| _Doug | Yea, like most other business strategies, MS does push it harder than most, very hard ball .. | Aug 23 22:50 |
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| twitter | What's the old saw? If you think it's OK to screw customers for the benefit of share holders and employees you will eventually get around to screwing everyone because you think it's OK to screw people. | Aug 23 22:50 |
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| _Doug | YOu think, MS is bad .. that's modern market capitalism for you .. | Aug 23 22:51 |
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| _Doug | YOu either work for a company or start your own, and exploit someone else .. preferably in another country .. :) | Aug 23 22:51 |
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| jose__ | yeah, i wouldn't put ms at the bottom of any list. not because i have first hand account but i imagine that is not where they release their worst | Aug 23 22:51 |
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| jose__ | list of employee treatment quality. | Aug 23 22:52 |
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| _Doug | Employees are just a 'resource' totally expendable .. sorry to burst your bubble any newly qualified IT people reading this .. | Aug 23 22:52 |
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| jose__ | the mob treats family that perform very well ..if you don't mind the thought you could get buried alive on your next slip up. | Aug 23 22:52 |
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| _Doug | time to go .. have things to do .. | Aug 23 22:53 |
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| jose__ | i have to go too | Aug 23 22:53 |
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| jose__ | yeah, in hindsight, i don't think living in fear and being wed to the mob can be considered a good career move. | Aug 23 22:54 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft is screwing Red hat: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/19/... | Aug 23 22:58 |
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| schestowitz | By coping with a loss against VMWare they can prevent entry of non-SUSE Linuxes from entering the server room. It's a long-term investment. | Aug 23 22:58 |
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| Duhhhh | this mibbit thing is kinda neat | Aug 23 23:04 |
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| schestowitz | Hey, Duhhhh | Aug 23 23:05 |
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| dsmith_ | Duhhhh was me | Aug 23 23:09 |
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| schestowitz | Yeah, I wasn't sure. I though it was Soug | Aug 23 23:11 |
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| twitter | I don't know enough about virtual machines. Lenny's got Virtual box and Wine, isn't that all anyone needs? | Aug 23 23:11 |
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| schestowitz | *Doug | Aug 23 23:11 |
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| schestowitz | For desktop, yes... xVM | Aug 23 23:11 |
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| twitter | Google does not share their software but don't they also have virtualization? | Aug 23 23:14 |
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| twitter | I suppose my question is, how does M$'s slightly less obnoxious licensing threaten Red Hat? | Aug 23 23:16 |
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| dsmith_ | I was looking at Vmware ESX - ESXi - OpenVZ | Aug 23 23:18 |
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| schestowitz | Hyper-V denies entry by all Linuxes other than SUSE or put them at a position of disadvantage. Microsoft just needs to ensure it can replace KVM and primarily VMWare at all costs | Aug 23 23:18 |
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| dsmith_ | but for now I just use vmware server | Aug 23 23:18 |
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| twitter | So Hyper-V is crap. Why will people want to use it? Some cooperation from their buddies at Intel? | Aug 23 23:19 |
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| twitter | I understand the intent, but the same strategy has not worked out so well for Windows Media and Zune. | Aug 23 23:20 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: they sign some contracts.They'll figure something out (hopefully they want). I'll be watching. | Aug 23 23:21 |
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| twitter | Good to keep an eye on it, but I'm predicting massive fail. | Aug 23 23:22 |
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| schestowitz | But, but, but... what's what Didio[t] and Chaps say: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/01/... http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/18/yankee... | Aug 23 23:23 |
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| twitter | "I'm going to get Hyper V because it only runs Suse" makes as much sense as, "I'm getting a Zune because it only works with Windows" | Aug 23 23:23 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf ""Working behind the scenes to orchestrate "independent" praise of our technology, and damnation of the enemy's, is a key evangelism function during the Slog. "Independent" analyst's report should be issued, praising your technology and damning the competitors (or ignoring them). "Independent" consultants should write columns and articles, give conference presentations.." | Aug 23 23:24 |
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| twitter | all for just $200/hour. :) | Aug 23 23:27 |
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| schestowitz | 'Just; | Aug 23 23:27 |
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| twitter | I'm surprised anyone publishes the Didiot anymore. | Aug 23 23:27 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/04/p... | Aug 23 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/03/... | Aug 23 23:28 |
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| schestowitz | If they get paid $200/hour for a slog, how much do they get for snooping and spying? And for Sys-con libelous slime? | Aug 23 23:29 |
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| twitter | I'm not sure, I think the $200/hour figure comes from the SLOG doc itself. | Aug 23 23:29 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.cnet.com/8301-102... | Aug 23 23:30 |
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| schestowitz | Is it true that a criminal from Microsoft wanted to be running mate for Obama? | Aug 23 23:30 |
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| schestowitz | "SLOG doc"... *LOL* | Aug 23 23:31 |
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| twitter | McCain said he wanted Steve Ballmer on his cabinet. | Aug 23 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | GrokDoc, SlogDoc.... is there als a GrokSlog.net? | Aug 23 23:31 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: I know about *that* criminal. But Chairman Gates wanted to be with the Dems I was told. | Aug 23 23:32 |
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| dsmith_ | chairman | Aug 23 23:32 |
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| dsmith_ | lol | Aug 23 23:32 |
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| schestowitz | Although I'm sure that with his Senator grandpa and other 'valuable connections', he's already corrupting the system from the outside/by proxy. | Aug 23 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | Well, for a fact he was phoning US diplomats to reverse a "No" vote on OOXML in the US. And it worked! | Aug 23 23:33 |
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| twitter | Look into the Carlyle Group. They do a lot of "investment" in the regulated sector. Crony money for nothing. | Aug 23 23:33 |
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| schestowitz | He also has the Mexican president and the French president help him on the face of it. Now he plays politics in China and recently, shortly after that pseudo-departure, he chatted with the UN, which was going to embrace FOSS. | Aug 23 23:34 |
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| schestowitz | Robert Carlyle usually plays the crook in British films, so I don't rust no "Carlyle Group" | Aug 23 23:35 |
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| twitter | With all that flying, he's a one many global warmer. | Aug 23 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Private plane? | Aug 23 23:35 |
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| schestowitz | Probably 2. | Aug 23 23:36 |
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| schestowitz | One for the stash of money and one for him and the lobbyists. The former is a cargo plane. | Aug 23 23:36 |
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| twitter | 747 with gold toilets. | Aug 23 23:36 |
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| twitter | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group | Aug 23 23:36 |
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| twitter | Steve gets the deck with rubber walls and chairs that are not riveted to the floor. | Aug 23 23:37 |
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| schestowitz | Big,far cargo plane... http://www.metacafe.com/watch/892... | Aug 23 23:38 |
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| twitter | http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=... | Aug 23 23:38 |
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| schestowitz | Carlyle Group... just read some... sounds like a classic pothole for legalised bribery, AKA "lobbying". | Aug 23 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | "Carlyle was founded in 1987 by Stephen L. Norris..." | Aug 23 23:40 |
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| schestowitz | ""Just when you thought it was all over, the SCO story takes a new twist. SCO has received $100 million financing from Stephen Norris Capital Partners" | Aug 23 23:41 |
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| twitter | It's more incestuous than that. They can buy a part of a company and then get them to buy something stupid like Windoze before dumping it. | Aug 23 23:41 |
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| schestowitz | Can't find a connection: http://www.google.com/search?num... | Aug 23 23:42 |
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| twitter | Their specialty though, is doing this kind of thing to regulated business, so that they get monopoly money for their purchases. | Aug 23 23:42 |
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| twitter | Funding SCO is not connection? | Aug 23 23:42 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?num=50&... | Aug 23 23:43 |
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| schestowitz | BayStar investiment. | Aug 23 23:43 |
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| twitter | If Didiot's shilling is connection, surely handing $100 million to them is. | Aug 23 23:43 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?num=50&... | Aug 23 23:43 |
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| schestowitz | I posted an update on this some hours ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/23/sco-... PJ reckons they won't get the money. | Aug 23 23:44 |
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| twitter | Here's a funny one. http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:KxC... | Aug 23 23:47 |
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| twitter | Not so funny is their involvement with domestic spying. | Aug 23 23:48 |
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| schestowitz | “Honestly, I don’t worry about the spam issue anymore. This solution has saved me about two to three hours each week.” | Aug 23 23:49 |
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| schestowitz | "Spam will be a thing of the past in two years’ time." Bill Gates, 2004 | Aug 23 23:50 |
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| twitter | http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard... | Aug 23 23:50 |
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| schestowitz | And these days, about 120,000,000,000 SPAM per day is sent from Windows zombies | Aug 23 23:50 |
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| schestowitz | Oh wait! | Aug 23 23:51 |
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| twitter | http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/category... | Aug 23 23:51 |
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| schestowitz | Recently I found this one: "Microsoft Building Searched By Feds Investigating High-Priced Hookers ... Federal investigators executed a search warrant at Microsoft's Mountain View, Calif., offices earlier this month as part of an investigation into a high-priced call girl ring similar to the one used by former New York Gov. Eliot Spitzer. " | Aug 23 23:52 |
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| schestowitz | From http://www.informationweek.com/management/s... | Aug 23 23:52 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.informationweek.com/management/showA... | Aug 23 23:52 |
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| twitter | http://www.earthnews.net/articles/carl... | Aug 23 23:53 |
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| twitter | M$ whores? Ha ha | Aug 23 23:53 |
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| twitter | Carlyle has been used for a lot of shadowy deals. It exploded recently for reasons I don't remember. | Aug 23 23:55 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/... Search for "Gates" | Aug 23 23:55 |
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| twitter | The French poodle's brother, Olivier Sarkozy is part of their group. | Aug 23 23:58 |
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| schestowitz | Really?? | Aug 23 23:58 |
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| schestowitz | Well, that explains some things. | Aug 23 23:59 |
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| twitter | GWB has a lot to do with them and the war for oil, I mean the war on terrorism. | Aug 23 23:59 |
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| schestowitz | I suppose you've reader about Sarko. Search BN.com for it shall you require to see how he fights FOSS. :-) | Aug 23 23:59 |
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| twitter | M$, ATT and others are a big part of the war against rights. | Aug 23 23:59 |
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