| oiaohm | So browser compadiblity no .net is not better. | Feb 21 00:00 |
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| oiaohm | If you mean intergration into ADS. | Feb 21 00:00 |
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| oiaohm | Yes that is simpler. | Feb 21 00:00 |
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| oiaohm | It is a addon block of code for PHP. | Feb 21 00:00 |
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| oiaohm | Basically python perl PHP all the open source web development platforms provide you with the means to simple control the html sent to clients directly. | Feb 21 00:01 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: So does .net | Feb 21 00:01 |
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| oiaohm | Really. | Feb 21 00:01 |
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| benJIman | In fact more easily. | Feb 21 00:01 |
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| oiaohm | PHP where html is directly emebed in its code. | Feb 21 00:02 |
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| benJIman | There used to be at least difficulty doing using HTTP PUT with php for example. | Feb 21 00:02 |
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| oiaohm | Funny part need to use a different version of that for lynx | Feb 21 00:02 |
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| benJIman | Maybe you're doing it wrong :p | Feb 21 00:02 |
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| oiaohm | No. | Feb 21 00:03 |
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| oiaohm | Lynx some versions don't respond right. | Feb 21 00:03 |
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| oiaohm | to http put data. | Feb 21 00:03 |
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| benJIman | Embedding code in the html doesn't mean you have more control. Generally separation of concerns is better. | Feb 21 00:03 |
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| oiaohm | Really no it is not better. | Feb 21 00:04 |
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| oiaohm | Reason you have two files you have to compare when working out a bug compared to 1. | Feb 21 00:04 |
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| oiaohm | Least numbers of files wins. | Feb 21 00:04 |
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| Balrog | can't you do separation of code with PHP ? | Feb 21 00:04 |
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| Balrog | (I'm sure you can with some of the other open platforms available) | Feb 21 00:05 |
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| oiaohm | You can stack php on php yes. | Feb 21 00:05 |
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| oiaohm | But when you get down to what is sent to browsers good coders will do all that code in combinde form. | Feb 21 00:06 |
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| schestowitz | Someone has just told me: "this is not really an recognized authority. btw http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/200... " | Feb 21 00:06 |
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| oiaohm | Just due to the debuging time it saves. | Feb 21 00:06 |
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| schestowitz | This is not good for SUSE | Feb 21 00:06 |
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| schestowitz | And the author is a buddy of Miguel, apparently. | Feb 21 00:06 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe just know to him and nothing more, who knows..? | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| oiaohm | LOL asp.net does not detect Linux. | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| oiaohm | It tells me to install silverlight on debian. | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| Balrog | schestowitz: how would that be? | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| Balrog | silverlight? there's moonlight | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| Balrog | doesn't even work 1/2 the time | Feb 21 00:07 |
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| oiaohm | It says silverlight | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| Balrog | so it's useless for my purposes | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| oiaohm | No mention of moonlight at all. | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| Balrog | yeah ... wonder if it detects iphone | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| schestowitz | :-) http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20... (UK boffin: Social networking causes cancer, heart attacks, lupus, dementia...) | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| Balrog | (which has no plugins) | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| oiaohm | Not a good sign when a site for building web sites cannot detect web browers correctly. | Feb 21 00:08 |
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| Balrog | or for that matter, push unnecessary plugins | Feb 21 00:09 |
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| schestowitz | More craziness. First nmap, now this.. State bill would turn RFID researchers into felons < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/20/... > | Feb 21 00:09 |
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| Balrog | plugins tend to be a great big security hole | Feb 21 00:09 |
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| Balrog | schestowitz: nmap? in Germany you mean? | Feb 21 00:09 |
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| Balrog | security by obscurity | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| Balrog | terrible | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| Balrog | and in the US D: | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | Windows 7 on the (Too) Fast Track < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159941... > | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| oiaohm | Yet you like using .net | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | "Is Microsoft cutting corners in the rush to market?" | Feb 21 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: UK too | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | I'm no fan of .NET | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | at all | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| schestowitz | openbenJIman is a .net fan | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | oh. | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | I see | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | what about Java? Yes, it's overused, but it works and it's open | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| twitter | Glad to see you getting some use out of that image. | Feb 21 00:11 |
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| Balrog | (meaning Java server) | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| benJIman | Balrog: I prefer java. | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| twitter | Just sent you another one and it's parts. Don't know if you need it, have fun. | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| oiaohm | Java is not the best but it can be aduited completely. | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| Balrog | it's easy to write .... | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: What do you mean by that? | Feb 21 00:12 |
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| oiaohm | Also you do have secoundary engines that will run java if the main one is broken. | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| Balrog | what I'm annoyed with is that it's pushed so much. | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | "Wake up, folks. It's all been a big lie." (Vista7) | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: add that Randall C. Kennedy piece to your profolio | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | "And as for the public "beta" charade, more than one person has accused Microsoft of using the threat of limited availability and a fixed cut-off date as a kind of PR stunt, a way to generate buzz by showing how much pent-up demand exists for their new baby." | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | "Development team responses like "won't fix" or "by design" seem to be the the norm for even serious issues, leading many testers to conclude that the product was feature complete (i.e. no longer subject to significant modification based on tester input) long before they received their first code drop." | Feb 21 00:13 |
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| Balrog | I saw that :( | Feb 21 00:14 |
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| benJIman | Of course that never happens with free software. | Feb 21 00:14 |
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| Balrog | well, if it happens in free software, YOU can fix it yourself. | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| Balrog | not so with closed software | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| benJIman | Quite. | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| benJIman | Which is why I use free softare :) | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| Balrog | it may be hard to do so, but it's interesting to note the number of patches to free software that Gentoo applies | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| Balrog | (to fix various things) | Feb 21 00:15 |
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| benJIman | They should be pushed upstream where sensible. | Feb 21 00:16 |
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| Balrog | yes. | Feb 21 00:16 |
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| Balrog | a good number of the patches are fixes for the gentoo build system | Feb 21 00:16 |
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| Balrog | but many add functionality / fix stuff | Feb 21 00:16 |
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| Balrog | You heard of the mess with the Ion window manager? | Feb 21 00:17 |
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| Balrog | (back in 07) | Feb 21 00:17 |
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| oiaohm | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverity benJIman tools like this can be run everywhere accross java. There are other tools that run accross php python and perl as well. Java still had the annoyance of .net you need the source code to scan it. | Feb 21 00:18 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: Findbugs is pretty good for java and free. | Feb 21 00:18 |
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| Balrog | yeah. Java does run faster though...right? | Feb 21 00:18 |
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| oiaohm | Depends. | Feb 21 00:18 |
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| oiaohm | gcj or jit Balrog | Feb 21 00:18 |
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| Balrog | ? | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | You will find some java applications like on or the other. | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| Balrog | the newer jit uses HotSpot. | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | Hotspot works will on predictable things. | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | gcj does nice general optimisation. | Feb 21 00:19 |
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| oiaohm | Ie stuff that will be getting lots of random data feeds into gcj will win. | Feb 21 00:20 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 21 00:20 |
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| Balrog | gcj is tricky to set up in my experience | Feb 21 00:20 |
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| oiaohm | Yes | Feb 21 00:20 |
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| oiaohm | It really comes down to how much you need performance. | Feb 21 00:21 |
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| schestowitz | Troubling times for OpenSUSE < http://www.itwire.com/content/view/23388/1090/ > | Feb 21 00:21 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: just don't cite Fortify (MS partner) | Feb 21 00:22 |
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| Balrog | ...Fortify...? | Feb 21 00:22 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: Oh really? | Feb 21 00:22 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: In fact hotspot nearly always wins on all but very short lived things. | Feb 21 00:23 |
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| Balrog | gcj is nice because you can get machine language code... but that's a different use | Feb 21 00:23 |
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| benJIman | Sam Varghese has an interesting definition of truism. | Feb 21 00:24 |
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| benJIman | Balrog: So does hotspot, at runtime. | Feb 21 00:24 |
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| benJIman | Just in time compilers have more information to base optimisation on than ahead of time. | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| Balrog | well, you may not have a JVM installed .... or you may not want to use it. | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| Balrog | it's extra code with extra (possible) bugs | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| oiaohm | hotspot can shot it self in foot trying to make optimisation match a random operation feed benJIman | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| benJIman | Well yeah it's useful for some embedded scenarios where it's not practical to run a jit. | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| oiaohm | Ok this section of code has nto been called for a while it can be made slow. | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| oiaohm | bugger it just got called. | Feb 21 00:25 |
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| benJIman | oiaohm: I'm not sure you understand how it works ;) | Feb 21 00:26 |
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| oiaohm | Its really horses for courses. | Feb 21 00:26 |
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| oiaohm | I know how hotspot works. | Feb 21 00:26 |
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| oiaohm | there are just some java programs that it don't get along with. | Feb 21 00:26 |
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| oiaohm | The effect is performance improving and droping as it tries to improve the code. | Feb 21 00:27 |
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| oiaohm | Now for something you want running at a constant speed gcj wins. | Feb 21 00:27 |
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| benJIman | For a constant speed of slow. | Feb 21 00:27 |
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| Balrog | gcj is slower than equivalent c code....? | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| benJIman | Balrog: Depends what you mean by equivalent. | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| oiaohm | I have see one java application take 4 times long with hotspot to complete due to the stalls. | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| benJIman | There are a lot of gross generalisations here. | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| oiaohm | gcc it self does have a annoying flaw. | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| Balrog | which is...? | Feb 21 00:28 |
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| oiaohm | No link time optimisation. | Feb 21 00:29 |
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| oiaohm | That works well. | Feb 21 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | Why is Zonker so quiet? | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Since the layoffs even. | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Not a word. | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| oiaohm | http://llvm.org/Features.html Using gcc releation llvm java hot spot does have problems. | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Phoronix has new gcc benchmarks today | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=art... | Feb 21 00:30 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 21 00:31 |
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| *benJIman has yet to see a phoronix benchmark that isn't hillariously flawed. | Feb 21 00:31 |
| Balrog | when will they move to GCC4? | Feb 21 00:31 |
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| Balrog | true, but GCC3 is slower | Feb 21 00:31 |
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| Balrog | it's like those comparisons of OS X on ppc harware back when they were using GCC2 | Feb 21 00:31 |
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| Balrog | which has poor optimizations for PPC | Feb 21 00:32 |
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| oiaohm | Gcc did something stupid internally. | Feb 21 00:32 |
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| oiaohm | As well. | Feb 21 00:32 |
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| benJIman | At least this is testing actually different software, instead of the let's test slightly different kernel revisions at i/o and cpu bound operations! | Feb 21 00:32 |
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| oiaohm | Information about finally binary sections of it travels in independant structs. | Feb 21 00:32 |
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| schestowitz | They defend BN.. | Feb 21 00:33 |
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| Balrog | ? | Feb 21 00:33 |
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| schestowitz | I totally missed that part (page 2) | Feb 21 00:34 |
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| schestowitz | "One must not forger the principle of cause and effect - the search for scapegoats must end at the company's executive suite." | Feb 21 00:34 |
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| Balrog | but putting out flawed benchmarks isn't too good. | Feb 21 00:34 |
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| schestowitz | it's actually not much of an insult that they blame BN for the failures of Hovsepian and chums | Feb 21 00:34 |
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| oiaohm | Balrog: ms has put out worse. | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| Balrog | certainly they have | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| oiaohm | Like comparing windows 2000 to redhat 7 | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| Balrog | and bad studies | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| oiaohm | yep redhat 9 was released. | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| Balrog | (saying that Windows is less expensive to maintain than Linux) | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| Balrog | I've seen that in printed mag ads | Feb 21 00:35 |
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| benJIman | It really depends on the scenario. | Feb 21 00:36 |
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| benJIman | It can be, you could easily prove either with a study. | Feb 21 00:36 |
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| Balrog | well, I'm working part-time in IT at a university | Feb 21 00:36 |
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| Balrog | and it's definitely not less expensive (time spent including) to maintain | Feb 21 00:37 |
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| oiaohm | Its like solarias vs Linux. | Feb 21 00:37 |
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| benJIman | e.g if you have a microsoft-skilled workforce windows is going to be easier to maintain. | Feb 21 00:37 |
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| oiaohm | If you are running many servers in one box solarias still wins. | Feb 21 00:37 |
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| Balrog | well, solaris isn't that bad. True, you have to learn some extra stuff, but it's ok | Feb 21 00:37 |
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| oiaohm | Now if its a single sever doing firewalling you would be basically nuts to use solaris | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| Balrog | the way Sun does stuff bothers me .... they can't stick to openldap and try force you to use their ldap server | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| oiaohm | Task vs OS. | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| oiaohm | Sorry to say Sun LDAP server was designed first. | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| schestowitz | Watch the image at the bottom of this one. Microsoft. | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009... | Feb 21 00:38 |
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| Balrog | maybe, but it sucks that it can't work cross platform | Feb 21 00:39 |
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| Balrog | I've seen a patch (to openldap) to make it work and it's only like 10 lines! (though that is for an older version) | Feb 21 00:39 |
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| Balrog | http://www.bolthole.com/solaris/ldap_patch.txt | Feb 21 00:39 |
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| schestowitz | This one's still hanging about: Cuba to United States: We'll Launch our own OS! < http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/cuba_u... > Bug WIN for Gentoo | Feb 21 00:42 |
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| oiaohm | Most OS's based of Gentoo end up migrating to something else. | Feb 21 00:42 |
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| Balrog | oiaohm: why? | Feb 21 00:43 |
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| Balrog | because it changes too often? | Feb 21 00:43 |
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| oiaohm | Mostly its package management system. | Feb 21 00:43 |
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| Balrog | I think its package manager is very good | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| Balrog | yeah, it's tricky to work with, but allows for total control | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| oiaohm | Total control bit. | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| oiaohm | Most users + that equals big problems lot of support calls. | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| Balrog | true. | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| Balrog | Fedora or Debian are probably better choices to start with | Feb 21 00:44 |
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| oiaohm | No centos not fedora | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| oiaohm | Fedora too much lets test this and hope user don't suffer OS. | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| Balrog | why not fedora? moves too fast? | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| oiaohm | Fedora is mostly used by redhat to test applications | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| Balrog | the university uses fedora and it works well | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| oiaohm | I have had all kinds of evil from fedora | Feb 21 00:45 |
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| oiaohm | From ldap servers that don't run. | Feb 21 00:46 |
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| oiaohm | To dhcp servers that loss track of IP handed out. | Feb 21 00:46 |
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| oiaohm | centos is a sorted form of Fedora. | Feb 21 00:46 |
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| oiaohm | Yep that broken dont ship that out. | Feb 21 00:46 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: they use Entropy of sabayon) | Feb 21 00:47 |
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| Balrog | Fedora 9 was a mess, I heard | Feb 21 00:47 |
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| oiaohm | Also if you want to minorlly scare you self with warning messages. | Feb 21 00:47 |
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| oiaohm | Build Fedora's kernel from source. | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| oiaohm | Then build kernel.org version. | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| Balrog | what messy stuff do they do? | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| Balrog | you mean with no patches? | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| Balrog | kernel.org is official right? | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| oiaohm | Fedora kernel puts out about 20000 warning messages due to the patches they applied. | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| schestowitz | For server, just go with centos | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 21 00:48 |
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| oiaohm | Yep poor quality control on included patches effect fedora badly. | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| Balrog | interesting. Where I'm at they use fedora (true, 7, not the latest) and it works well | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | It's a fast cycle | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | 6 months | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | Let's see Apple or Microsoft do this | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| benJIman | Fedora has a strong emphasis on using the latest upstream without patching. | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| Balrog | true. Isn't Ubuntu 6-months? | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| oiaohm | Fedora 4 was also stable. | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | Not just some service pack slapped together once in 1-2 years | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| Balrog | yeah they use 4 and 7 | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: yes | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | Fedora 10 is good | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | F11 seems to be going well too | Feb 21 00:49 |
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| oiaohm | 10 a few odd ball services are broken. | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | F9 was problematic all along at the time, but they pulled through | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| Balrog | where I'm at, they do a lot of testing before deploying | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | I didn't try it, but I read many reviews | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | I sometimes use Fedora | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | Works VERY well | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| oiaohm | Hopefully at some point Fedora gets true quaility control. | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| oiaohm | Not lucky. | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm likes to exaggerate issues :-) | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| schestowitz | After all, he runs a Linuxhaters site, so.. | Feb 21 00:50 |
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| oiaohm | No I don't run a Linuxhater site. | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: the newer oen | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | *one | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| oiaohm | Nop | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | The original one is so yesterday | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | No? | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| oiaohm | I go there and pull there logic apart. | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | Redux, no? | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| oiaohm | Redux hates me. | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, so who are you then? | Feb 21 00:51 |
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| oiaohm | So far he has not put up a single thing that passes logic. | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Alex the Wintroll said it was you. | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| oiaohm | I run bits on secuirty design and basic design issues. | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| oiaohm | I hate windows mac and Linux in places. | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| Balrog | no one is perfect | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Nokia To Stop Developing Qt Jambi < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page... > | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| oiaohm | Windows lot more in secuirty. | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| Balrog | except that Windows is terrible | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Oh yeah... Nokia was 'good' news to Qt | Feb 21 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | So Qute... | Feb 21 00:53 |
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| Balrog | come on | Feb 21 00:53 |
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| Balrog | Qt is so useful | Feb 21 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | Pretty too | Feb 21 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | I LOVE Qt -built GUIs | Feb 21 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | I used their IDE before... not much development as much as tweaking though | Feb 21 00:54 |
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| oiaohm | gcj cni interface you really don't need java wrappers to use QT from java. | Feb 21 00:55 |
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| oiaohm | Yes a lot like .net native call feature. Except cni is older. | Feb 21 00:55 |
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| *Casperin has quit ("Leaving") | Feb 21 00:56 |
| schestowitz | GTK neglected Java somewhat | Feb 21 00:56 |
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| schestowitz | Mono and Novell don't help here. | Feb 21 00:56 |
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| Balrog | true. | Feb 21 00:56 |
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| schestowitz | This is something we covered 'bout a year ago | Feb 21 00:56 |
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| oiaohm | Mono lacks native call support. | Feb 21 00:57 |
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| oiaohm | Really I think that is very intentioanl. | Feb 21 00:57 |
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| oiaohm | If they allows that on Linux it would fragment .net a way MS would not like. | Feb 21 00:57 |
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| Balrog | does java allow native calls? | Feb 21 00:59 |
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| benJIman | With jni or jna etc | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| oiaohm | gnu version of it does for AOT built. | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| benJIman | Not as easily as in .net | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| oiaohm | Niether jni or jna required. | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| benJIman | That's not really java though. | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| benJIman | JNA is relatively easy to use. | Feb 21 01:00 |
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| Balrog | well in any case, what to do to move away from this SilverLight junk? | Feb 21 01:04 |
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| schestowitz | A Novell Vay is angry about the bosses taking vacations... http://www.thevarguy.com/2009/02/18/novell-five... | Feb 21 01:05 |
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| Balrog | all the video capture software they're looking at uses it D: | Feb 21 01:06 |
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| schestowitz | Great picture: http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2009/... | Feb 21 01:07 |
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| Balrog | it's interesting that the 'notification' system proposed for 9.04 looks exactly like Sparkle for Mac | Feb 21 01:08 |
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| schestowitz | Got a picture there? | Feb 21 01:09 |
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| oiaohm | Of course. | Feb 21 01:09 |
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| oiaohm | ubuntu lead said copy Mac | Feb 21 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | Canonical’s April 2009 Surprise: More Than Ubuntu 9.04 < http://www.workswithu.com/2009/02/19/canoni... > | Feb 21 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: he's obsessed with Apple | Feb 21 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | Shuttleworth can sometimes be a PR disaster IMHO | Feb 21 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | His remarks on Vista7 and OS X for example | Feb 21 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | By being respectful to the competition he belittles not only Ubuntu but GNU/Linux as a whole | Feb 21 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | He's a bad salesman to tell you the truth because both Apple and Microsoft won't do that | Feb 21 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft still talks about Vista like it's a wonderful product | Feb 21 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Internally you see how they really feel (unsealed court docs) | Feb 21 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Apple ain't much better with their many defective projects at 1.0 | Feb 21 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | But they have an army of fans of evangelist (paid for, i.e. AstroTurfers) to cherish the DisneyWorld that's Apple. | Feb 21 01:12 |
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| Balrog | yeah, Apple did mess up with open source and all | Feb 21 01:12 |
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| Balrog | but as a whole, they're doing much better than MS | Feb 21 01:12 |
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| Balrog | at least their software works much better then MS software :p | Feb 21 01:12 |
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| oiaohm | Apple has aways been more of hardware company. | Feb 21 01:12 |
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| Balrog | well, they have | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | I think of Apple's marketing as "naked emperor" advertising. | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: ms has 3rd-party apps going for them | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| Balrog | but without software, their hardware would be run of the mill | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| oiaohm | Ipods .... Really if Apple whent full open source. | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| oiaohm | Most likely they would stay in business. | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | The what? | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| Balrog | like sony: pretty but not really worth it | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| MinceR | gn | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | That's utter B | Feb 21 01:13 |
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| oiaohm | There design guys do know how to make stuff look good. | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | Hi, avuton | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| avuton | Hello | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: not true. | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | It's marketing people | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | Don't confuse the two | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | They assimilate imagery and products | Feb 21 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | Apple also polices how it's products are presented and photographed | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| Balrog | Marketing is too important these days. But if you don't do it, you're get behind pretty quick | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | It's all about some kind of glorification of items | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| Balrog | well before release, I'm sure | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | Like leaders whose people would always picture them from below to make them look mightier | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| Balrog | the 'fans' actually complain a lot though. | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | Look at APple 'TV' effrots | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| Balrog | doesn't MS want that even more? though their products are terrible | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | No marketing , no go | Feb 21 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | Also a cr*p product with few featurs | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| Balrog | the ads? | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | LinuxMCE easts it for lunch | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| Balrog | or the TV? | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | And cheaper too | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| Balrog | yeah, until you install the hack | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| Balrog | which is soo easy :) | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| oiaohm | to be correct apple spends a lot of time on case design. | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | Marketing alone of the Zune must have cost more than the revenue | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| oiaohm | It would be nicer if they spent more on features. | Feb 21 01:16 |
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| Balrog | there's boxee for apple TC | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| Balrog | TV * | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| schestowitz | With development and production costs, I can imagine the Zune lost 100s of $millions | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| Balrog | and XBMC. | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| Balrog | yeah definitely | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| schestowitz | XBox lost over $5bn | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| schestowitz | It's not cheap bribing game sites | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| Balrog | so much for the high 'sales' | Feb 21 01:17 |
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| schestowitz | oiaohm: features? | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | No way | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | In Apple world, 1 button is enough | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | Click to switch on TV | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | Click again to switch off tv :-) | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | Pinch to infinge patent :-) | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| Balrog | no, in the apple world, a trackpad with 10 functions is plenty :p | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| oiaohm | Catch you guys around lunch is calling | Feb 21 01:18 |
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| Balrog | this whole patent thing is a mess | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| schestowitz | Ok, cool. | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| Balrog | different people give different reports | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Feb 21 01:19 |
| schestowitz | On same ideas? | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| Balrog | some reports are that the patent is only on how two-finger scroll is determined | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| Balrog | others say that it has to do with the 'heuristics' that determine the user's intent | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, I didn't look at the specifics | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| Balrog | yeah, would be a good idea too | Feb 21 01:19 |
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| Balrog | to * | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| schestowitz | Prior art is usually an analogous action that's well... 'analog', not digital. | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| schestowitz | I guess people having sxual intercourse can be taxed by Apple too. | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| schestowitz | Did you see the Seinfeld episode the "Pinch"? | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| Balrog | well, I'm sure their heuristics can be patented (like what tech they use to decide whether to scroll only up/down or scroll freely) | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| schestowitz | Where George 'steals' Jerry's 'move'? | Feb 21 01:20 |
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| *Balrog doesn't watch tv | Feb 21 01:21 |
| schestowitz | I don't anymore, either, except a few times a week. | Feb 21 01:22 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 21 01:23 |
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| Balrog | Well I'd look at the patent's specifics | Feb 21 01:23 |
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| Balrog | I've heard various reports. Some say it has to do with determining how to scroll | Feb 21 01:23 |
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| Balrog | Asus has two-finger scroll in the eeepc | Feb 21 01:24 |
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| Balrog | in any case, all the stuff I read is very mixed | Feb 21 01:31 |
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| Balrog | some say it's "all-encompassing" while some say it's specific | Feb 21 01:32 |
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| Balrog | so it seems that reading the patent would be the best way to figure out | Feb 21 01:32 |
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| schestowitz | brb | Feb 21 01:37 |
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| schestowitz | Novellers piss me off. | Feb 21 01:37 |
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| schestowitz | "distract" rather... attacks in the comments that need replying fasty | Feb 21 01:37 |
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| schestowitz | *fast | Feb 21 01:37 |
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| twitter | submitted Kennedy. Modded down, just like previous submission. http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=vi... | Feb 21 01:38 |
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| twitter | http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?... | Feb 21 01:39 |
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| schestowitz | See http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/20/nove... | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| Balrog | see http://i.gizmodo.com/5142445/disse... | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| Balrog | about the patent | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| Balrog | of course, it may not be totally correct. | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| Balrog | or unbiased | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| Balrog | for that matter | Feb 21 01:42 |
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| schestowitz | That post hit a nerve at Novell | Feb 21 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | Apple's patent has hurt 2 Linux devices | Feb 21 01:44 |
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| Balrog | meaning Android? | Feb 21 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | Android reporrtedly rm-ed a feature and Palm was reprimanded.d | Feb 21 01:44 |
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| Balrog | I didn't hear that Palm was reprimanded directly | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | I wrote about this in the patent roundups in BN | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| Balrog | Apple just said they'd 'defend their IP from being ripped off' | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Just in their meeting minutes or something | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | But maybe there was also direct coversation | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Nobody knows.. | Feb 21 01:45 |
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| Balrog | I don't know. | Feb 21 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/entry4019.html "These moves suggest to me that Apples fears competition, and I'm wondering why. If you put their products on an even playing field and let the buyer decide, in my opinion, Apple is going to win hands-down." | Feb 21 01:46 |
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| Balrog | we'll see when it all pans out | Feb 21 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | Mac fan by the way | Feb 21 01:46 |
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| Balrog | by the way, about the Android, they'd better do multitouch right if they do it at all | Feb 21 01:46 |
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| Balrog | we don't know all the circumstances of the decision | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| Balrog | maybe it goes much deeper than we think | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| Balrog | (possibly google's multitouch sucked?) | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | How can it suck? | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | It's a simple idea | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | It's not even new | Feb 21 01:47 |
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| Balrog | depending on how you implement it | Feb 21 01:48 |
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| schestowitz | Combining ideas is not innovation | Feb 21 01:48 |
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| schestowitz | It's progress | Feb 21 01:48 |
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| Balrog | yeah, pinch zoom and scroll and all that seem obvious | Feb 21 01:48 |
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| Balrog | but the technology that makes it work is what matters | Feb 21 01:48 |
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| Balrog | scroll and pinch and rotate to zoom are obvious IMO | Feb 21 01:49 |
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| Balrog | and can't be patented per se | Feb 21 01:50 |
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| Balrog | how you detect the user's intent (whether the user wants to click, scroll, etc) may be a different story | Feb 21 01:50 |
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| schestowitz | subpixel huntint too. | Feb 21 01:50 |
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| schestowitz | *hinting | Feb 21 01:50 |
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| Balrog | well who has the patent on that? | Feb 21 01:51 |
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| Balrog | not MS? | Feb 21 01:52 |
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| benJIman | MS have some for cleartype and apple have others too. | Feb 21 01:54 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 21 01:54 |
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| schestowitz | It's stupid maths | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| twitter | Anonymous and nO'Brain nit picking and libel, again. | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | Also interpretation of fingers is something that's well... axiomatic almost | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | You're blocking areas of science | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| Balrog | it's weird how people argue whether Apple or MS does better with font rendering | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | Fencing against development | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | That's why it's called intellectual monopolies | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | It impedes competition | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| Balrog | heh. well we'll see what happens when the pre comes out | Feb 21 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | Do something and then block replication, even if totally independent because it's obvious. | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| Balrog | if it's obvious, it won't stand up in court. | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | The fact that Palm is pressure with words is enough to show what cowards Apple are | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | They shouldn't do that | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft did this to Linux too | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | Many times in fact | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | The dark clouds always over one's heads. | Feb 21 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | benJIman know... his 'buddies' at Novell contributed to this | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| schestowitz | *knows | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| twitter | Software patents are always like that. | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| Balrog | software patents are a mess. | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| Balrog | "After long arguments, the judge insisted on an analysis of specific GUI elements that Apple claimed were infringements. Apple came up with a list of 189 GUI elements; the judge decided that 179 of these elements had been licensed to Microsoft in the Windows 1.0 agreement, and most of the remaining 10 elements were not copyrightable—either they were unoriginal to Apple, or they were the only possible way of expressing a | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| Balrog | on the Apple vs. MS suit | Feb 21 01:57 |
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| twitter | they should not exist. software is not an invention, it's an expression of instructions | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | When I implement something the last thing I think of is "hey, let's block others from doing this" | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | The guy who invented the web cookie said it took him an hour to do | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | It would take him weeks or months to get a silly pieace of paper on it | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| Balrog | yeah | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| twitter | The first thing people who buy code think is "let's make sure this is ours and no one else's" | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | So some other company obtained a patent on 'his' 'invention'... the Web cookie | Feb 21 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: you should see Miguel and MS interview.. | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | They say exactly that. | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | Hold on | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| twitter | people who buy code have a tendency to think of it as something you can put in a box and sell | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| Balrog | unfortunately they do exist. | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/19/eu... | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | "Also check out the bit (a few minutes later) where Carmine tries to redefine “open source” (”we recently open sourced the base-class libraries”), and later on protests (paraphrased) “Sometimes … you’ve got IP. It’s mine, it’s mine, I don’t want it to be yours. It’s my IP.” | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | " | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| twitter | there are many injustices in the world. they must be removed | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| Balrog | Well you can sell code. But if someone independently figures out how to do exactly the same thing, they should not be sued | Feb 21 01:59 |
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| twitter | exactly. | Feb 21 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | Carmine BTW is the Microsoft lackey. | Feb 21 02:00 |
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| Balrog | Closed-source has its place. But preventing someone from independently figuring out the same exact thing isn't exactly right | Feb 21 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | Miguel is there too with them... | Feb 21 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | The whole 'extended family' (Novell&Miguel&MS) | Feb 21 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u... | Feb 21 02:01 |
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| twitter | denying people the 0th software freedom is about as wrong as laws can be. | Feb 21 02:02 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: it's not just that. Sometimes patents stand in the way of merely making two thing work together... hence the danger of patent/s-encumbered standards (even RAND) | Feb 21 02:02 |
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| twitter | you have the right to make your computer do your tasks | Feb 21 02:02 |
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| twitter | no one should be able to tell you what you can't do with your own code | Feb 21 02:02 |
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| Balrog | yeah that's really bad. but if what I said was true (you can figure out how to do something, say reverse engineer a file format without 'inside knowledge) that holds | Feb 21 02:03 |
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| twitter | you should be able to do things with your files and offer your code to others who would like to do the same or similar things | Feb 21 02:03 |
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| schestowitz | Case of point (found in news a minute ago): http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/02/... | Feb 21 02:03 |
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| Balrog | or withhold your code if you want. But NOT prevent reversing | Feb 21 02:04 |
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| Balrog | this < http://farm4.static.flickr.com/303... > is a classic poster hanging in the server room :) | Feb 21 02:05 |
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| Balrog | or a photo of it | Feb 21 02:05 |
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| Balrog | in any case, it wasn't good back then, isn't much better today | Feb 21 02:05 |
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| Balrog | (isn't any better, really) | Feb 21 02:05 |
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| Balrog | could say it's worse today | Feb 21 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | Does this video work for you? New one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgPeO7IR-UQ | Feb 21 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | Firefox doesn't load them out for no reason (never happened before) | Feb 21 02:06 |
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| Balrog | works here | Feb 21 02:06 |
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| twitter | clive is getting them | Feb 21 02:07 |
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| twitter | hmph, looks like Adobe has some holes in pdf. I'm more used to flash blowing things up. | Feb 21 02:10 |
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| twitter | http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?s... | Feb 21 02:10 |
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| Balrog | I heard. Adobe can't even write code that works with a case sensitive FS D: | Feb 21 02:10 |
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| Balrog | well I'm out. | Feb 21 02:10 |
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| *Balrog has quit () | Feb 21 02:10 |
| twitter | Ick, why did you want to watch that Novell advertisement on YouTube. The main dude was a Windows user, or his computer looked an awful lot like like W2K or XP with "classic" GUI. | Feb 21 02:15 |
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| twitter | Nice buildings, beautiful people, butt ugly GUI. One of these things is not like the others, one of these things does not belong. Can you guess .... | Feb 21 02:16 |
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| twitter | hmmm, Saab is bankrupt. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b6e794... | Feb 21 02:22 |
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| **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Feb 21 02:26:52 2009 |
| *Now talking on #boycottnovell | Feb 21 02:26 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell is: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged] | Feb 21 02:26 |
| *Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008 | Feb 21 02:26 |
| -ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation. | Feb 21 02:26 |
| -ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel | Feb 21 02:26 |
| *ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitz | Feb 21 02:27 |
| schestowitz | Ahhhh,.... I see... | Feb 21 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | As I suspected, Google breaks YouTube for use with certain plugins | Feb 21 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | The last time they did this, it took me like 2 hours (!!) to spot the source of the issue | Feb 21 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | This time it was faster | Feb 21 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | It worked on Konqueror, so I knew it was a plugin | Feb 21 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | Disabling FLashblock did the trick | Feb 21 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | And earlier today I did read about YouTube making some changes, I just couldn't recall what they involved. | Feb 21 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | Saab goes sub... (sub-crime?) GM must be dependent on you taxpayers now... looted by so-called "stimulus" (Orwellian term) | Feb 21 02:34 |
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| schestowitz | Yahoo buys something < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquir... > "SEARCH engine Yahoo which has been in the doldrums for a year after failing to take Microsoft's offer of a buy out, has bought Softbank's IDC outfit." | Feb 21 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | Why the USA Economy is failing… http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=51 ("Something called GREED.") | Feb 21 02:47 |
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| schestowitz | Ouch! http://www.aforgenet.com/ "AForge.NET is a C# framework designed for developers and researchers in the fields of Computer Vision and Artificial Intelligence - image processing, neural networks, genetic algorithms, machine learning, robotics, etc." | Feb 21 02:50 |
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| schestowitz | Why was this in FP of FSD? | Feb 21 02:50 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.lessig.org/blog/2009/02/from_... | Feb 21 03:03 |
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