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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 15th, 2009 - Part 1

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balzacoiaohm: do you think anyone on the gcc team is being obstinant, stubborn, or slow to accept an obviously necessary adaptation?Mar 15 00:00
balzacloaded question...Mar 15 00:00
Balrog_isn't GCC extremely huge as it is?Mar 15 00:00
oiaohmNo size of mess balzacMar 15 00:00
oiaohmIt fixing the issues in binutils and gcc without bringing the house of cards down.Mar 15 00:00
schestowitz"Subject: Suse was good" http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story...Mar 15 00:00
balzacI remember reading about a guy named Con Kolivas who seemed to have nice ideas for the Linux kernel, but he wasn't socially integrated and left the project.Mar 15 00:00
oiaohmCon kolivas could not take that his theory was wrong.Mar 15 00:01
balzachmm, I didn't look closely enough to judge.Mar 15 00:01
oiaohmHe was so focused on the sheduler that he was missing the major cause of problem.Mar 15 00:01
oiaohmSame thing has happened over the years with gcc and binutils.Mar 15 00:02
balzacbut I know that people in software projects can be overly-utilitarian at the expense of social etiquette.Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_oiaohm : u can break down compatibility with previous versionsMar 15 00:02
_Hicham_plus, it costs a lot to redesign everythingMar 15 00:02
balzacgood communication is primary, so even if a guy "doesn't get" this or that, he can get it later and remain productively integrated into the project.Mar 15 00:02
oiaohmIt if was just breaking compatiblity between versions it would be simple.Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_that is why everthing is "hacked"Mar 15 00:02
_Hicham_what do u suggest oiaohm?Mar 15 00:03
oiaohmI attempted to fix 1 thing in binutils and broke 30 platforms.Mar 15 00:03
schestowitz"Couple all that to the recent meltdown of the world economy, and Microsoft may find they have bitten off more than they can chew if they try to kill GNU/Linux through their deal with Novell." http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_sto...Mar 15 00:03
balzacI would recommend the GCC team, Linux kernel team, Drupal devs have parties in which mushroom tea is offered.Mar 15 00:03
_Hicham_see?Mar 15 00:03
oiaohmDue to dependancy on that struct that was in the wrong place.Mar 15 00:03
balzacI'm going to make a software company in which we take shrooms and code amazing software.Mar 15 00:03
_Hicham_oiaohm : and u still criticize gcc team?Mar 15 00:04
balzac_Hicham_: criticism is not badMar 15 00:04
oiaohmI am not exactly criticizing the current team.Mar 15 00:04
oiaohmThey have one mother of a mess.Mar 15 00:04
_Hicham_balzac : i didnt say that critcism is badMar 15 00:04
balzac_Hicham_: I didn't say you said thatMar 15 00:04
oiaohmWe need to be aware that it is a mother of mess.Mar 15 00:05
_Hicham_oiaohm : legacy code should be reusedMar 15 00:05
Balrog__Hicham_: not necessarilyMar 15 00:05
balzacoiaohm: I've seen good ideas fall by the way-side because the critic didn't add enough pleasant language around their vision.Mar 15 00:05
_Hicham_Balrog : any piece of code is an investmentMar 15 00:05
balzaclike this guy on a GNU dev list who sounded like Simon CowellMar 15 00:06
oiaohmBadly designed code is worthless _Hicham_Mar 15 00:06
Balrog_what about the old Mac OS ?Mar 15 00:06
Balrog_well designed for its use, but very useless on more modern systemsMar 15 00:06
_Hicham_oiaohm : but it worksMar 15 00:06
oiaohmLot of people have been coding with the design with gcc in the past with o well lets just make it work.Mar 15 00:06
oiaohmDon't care how evilly we alter the source base.Mar 15 00:06
_Hicham_that what matters : "it works"Mar 15 00:06
oiaohmDefine works.Mar 15 00:07
Balrog_(meaning, it was very good for the 128-K ram machines it was designed for. But try scaling it to 100's of MHz systems and problems happen.)Mar 15 00:07
oiaohmGcc cannot optmise correctly due to the defects caused by the hacks.  Uses massivly more ram and so on.Mar 15 00:07
oiaohmAlso fails randomally at times because of some of the hacks.Mar 15 00:07
_Hicham_because it is cross platformMar 15 00:07
oiaohmIt very much like driving a car with a run flat tire.Mar 15 00:08
_Hicham_and there is a huge amount of software that are build with itMar 15 00:08
oiaohmyes the can is driveable.Mar 15 00:08
_Hicham_starting from the kernelMar 15 00:08
oiaohmcan/carMar 15 00:08
oiaohmYou should hear Linux on gccMar 15 00:08
oiaohmOpps LinusMar 15 00:08
oiaohmhe hates it worse than me.Mar 15 00:08
balzacwell, Linus seems to have a bit of an agendaMar 15 00:08
_Hicham_well, he didnt propose a compilerMar 15 00:09
balzaccarping and moaningMar 15 00:09
balzacbarking all the timeMar 15 00:09
_Hicham_by the way, which compiler did he use at the time?Mar 15 00:09
oiaohmThe hacks in Linux kernel to get around gcc optmisation and exe production failures is a lot.Mar 15 00:09
oiaohmLinus pure gcc user.Mar 15 00:09
balzacobviously, gcc needs to keep advancingMar 15 00:09
balzacthat is not debatableMar 15 00:09
balzacsounds like you're aware of a lot of possible improvementsMar 15 00:10
balzacwhat obstacles do you face?Mar 15 00:10
oiaohmlegacy code in gccMar 15 00:10
oiaohmand binutils.Mar 15 00:10
oiaohmIts like playing with a active time bomb.Mar 15 00:11
balzacoiaohm: are the gcc devs on the same page with you?Mar 15 00:11
oiaohmYesMar 15 00:11
balzaci think that may bit a bit alarmistMar 15 00:11
_Hicham_oiaohm : do u have a design proposition?Mar 15 00:11
balzacit's software, not defusing bombsMar 15 00:11
oiaohmThe designs to fix the faults have been done.Mar 15 00:11
*kentma1 has quit (Connection timed out)Mar 15 00:11
_Hicham_have they been committed?Mar 15 00:12
balzacoiaohm: sounds like it always comes down to social issuesMar 15 00:12
oiaohmIts getting the hacks that are in the way of the designs working.Mar 15 00:12
balzacoiaohm: is the legacy code keeping older architectures usable? can there be conditionals to isolate the legacy code without removing to the possible detriment of some old compatibility?Mar 15 00:13
_Hicham_yes, that what i was askingMar 15 00:13
oiaohmThe hacks in the legacy code can put complete languages support by gcc non functional.Mar 15 00:14
oiaohmIf you remove them and don't recode them.Mar 15 00:14
balzacicMar 15 00:14
oiaohmbinutils corrections takes out platforms.Mar 15 00:14
balzacIt sounds like a responsible code refactoring is in order, but without losing anything which is worth having.Mar 15 00:15
oiaohmYes its a nasty mess that should never of happened.Mar 15 00:15
balzactoo late nowMar 15 00:15
oiaohmThinking all the hacks are against the gcc base design documents.Mar 15 00:15
_Hicham_oiaohm : u should live up withMar 15 00:15
_Hicham_the initial design is not always perfectMar 15 00:15
balzacI suppose the dev server tells the story of who made what codeMar 15 00:16
oiaohminitial design was not perfect.Mar 15 00:16
MinceRgnMar 15 00:16
balzacso inside the project, people may debate the merits of various designs and of each other's influence on the projectMar 15 00:16
_Hicham_oiaohm : due to hardware and concepts at that timeMar 15 00:16
oiaohmJust altering sections of a program without thinking about long term problems will get you into trouble.Mar 15 00:16
_Hicham_oiaohm : u can't alter a program for nothingMar 15 00:17
_Hicham_compatibility is more importantMar 15 00:17
oiaohmSome has been like allocating memory when gcc started up for some platforms that should have been allocated when it was needed.Mar 15 00:17
_Hicham_better write a bridge or sthg to add functionalityMar 15 00:17
oiaohmThen other parts resuing that allocated memory.Mar 15 00:18
oiaohmFor other items other than it was alocated for in the first place.Mar 15 00:18
oiaohmPure basic coding rules broken.Mar 15 00:18
oiaohmMaintainers these days forbid those kind of things.Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_modern coding it not as 1983 codingMar 15 00:19
oiaohmEarly days of gcc did not have strong enough maintainers.Mar 15 00:19
oiaohmEven in 1983 doing that kind of stuff was bad coding _Hicham_Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_plus, who was interested?Mar 15 00:19
_Hicham_RMS only at firstMar 15 00:19
oiaohmRMS base code was well designed.   It was some of the latter maintainers where the evil sneeked in.Mar 15 00:20
_Hicham_RMS wasn't backed  by a big company like AT&T, and he done gccMar 15 00:20
oiaohmRemoving it now is a slow and painful process.Mar 15 00:20
_Hicham_the hacks are necessary, wherever u goMar 15 00:21
_Hicham_i seen some of windows nt and 2000 code, and it is really full of bad hacksMar 15 00:21
schestowitzWindows is a messMar 15 00:21
schestowitzSame problemMar 15 00:21
schestowitzNot modularMar 15 00:21
schestowitzNeeds redesignMar 15 00:22
schestowitzMS promised redesignMar 15 00:22
schestowitzAround 2005Mar 15 00:22
_Hicham_even if windows is maintained by a single companyMar 15 00:22
schestowitzAfter "development collapse"Mar 15 00:22
schestowitzThey couldn't incorporate major changesMar 15 00:22
oiaohm1,200 failures in the testsuite compared with mainline  << link time optmisation branch failures.Mar 15 00:22
schestowitzDid another XP with nicer theme/engine insteadMar 15 00:22
oiaohmMost of those are cause purely by the old hacks.Mar 15 00:22
balzacoiaohm: corporations can have good standards and resources, but so can academic institutionsMar 15 00:22
schestowitzIt wasnt modularMar 15 00:22
schestowitzIt still isn'tMar 15 00:22
schestowitzMicrosoft also wanted fast bootMar 15 00:22
schestowitzNever got around to itMar 15 00:22
oiaohmGcc was design to be modulerMar 15 00:22
schestowitzJust vapourwareMar 15 00:22
schestowitzWindows core devs leftMar 15 00:23
schestowitzMany of the new are new, cheap, overworked labourMar 15 00:23
schestowitzBTWMar 15 00:23
balzacwell, I'm hoping we'll see more funding for GNU and the FSFMar 15 00:23
oiaohmIts just not these days.  Hopefully in under a year it will return to moduler.Mar 15 00:23
schestowitzVista 7 is developed in BangaloreMar 15 00:23
balzacuh ohMar 15 00:23
schestowitzNot that there's anything wrong with BangaloreMar 15 00:23
_Hicham_schestowitz : ms managed to have "fast boot" by starting services after logonMar 15 00:23
schestowitzOffice developers outnumber Win developersMar 15 00:23
schestowitzOT: "The space shuttle Discovery is on pace for a Sunday launch after NASA engineers repaired a leaky gas venting system, officials said Saturday." < http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/space/0... >Mar 15 00:23
_Hicham_oiaohm : it is not gcc's faultMar 15 00:24
_Hicham_it is the way of evolutionMar 15 00:24
schestowitz_Hicham_: was referring to the mythical MinWin...Mar 15 00:24
_Hicham_and compatibility constraintsMar 15 00:24
schestowitzgcc stays as it is while they redesignMar 15 00:25
schestowitzThink KDEMar 15 00:25
schestowitzKDE needed to be cleaned upMar 15 00:25
oiaohmPart of the problem _Hicham_ is people calling gcc good when its not.  Ok gcc is good so I can do a tweek and don't have to fix up core ... So failure formed.Mar 15 00:25
schestowitzKDE 3.5.x was still aroundMar 15 00:25
schestowitz4.0 was seen as unreadyMar 15 00:25
Balrog_GCC 4 did improve a lotMar 15 00:25
schestowitzBut people carried on using KDE, even if just KDE 3.5.x while dvs built a new generationMar 15 00:25
_Hicham_oiaohm : redesign is not that easyMar 15 00:26
schestowitzSeigo et al would compare it to 747Mar 15 00:26
oiaohmGcc 4 include 1 of the first alterations heading to Link time optimisation. Balrog_Mar 15 00:26
schestowitzAlmost killed them, but now they get through as starsaMar 15 00:26
_Hicham_especially for a cross platform compilerMar 15 00:26
balzacoiaohm: I agree it's bad when people get materialistic about the code. The license is the best part of GCC.Mar 15 00:26
balzaccode always changes, but the intent of the license still remainsMar 15 00:26
balzacreminds me of a song lyricMar 15 00:26
balzacpeople come and people go, but the mountains still remainMar 15 00:27
schestowitzbalzac: same issue in LinuxMar 15 00:27
schestowitzThey rewrrite many modulesMar 15 00:27
schestowitzStacks and all.. from scratch sometimesMar 15 00:27
PeterFAAnyways, one thing that's very important is completeness in Linux so that you can adopt it no matter what.Mar 15 00:27
oiaohmLinux kernel had the best of it.Mar 15 00:27
schestowitzDevs can take away anything they wroteMar 15 00:27
balzacyepMar 15 00:27
balzacoiaohm: here's the solutionMar 15 00:27
oiaohmCall the big kernel lock.Mar 15 00:27
schestowitzSo the selfishness/possessiveness is no missueMar 15 00:27
balzacthere's another thing more important than code - peopleMar 15 00:27
PeterFAI need a list of all the projects needed for an infinitely large IT infrastructure.Mar 15 00:27
schestowitzThat's why many people dive in DebianMar 15 00:27
oiaohmBig kernel lock is fine.  When it was killing performance.Mar 15 00:27
PeterFAYou guys know of such a list?Mar 15 00:27
balzacnew people with new ideas need to value the people who've been there, and the people who've been there need to welcome new people with fresh ideas.Mar 15 00:28
schestowitzThey know the feeling of working really hard on code at word... and not being permtted to even take a copy for memories.Mar 15 00:28
schestowitzOr for use... or rave.. or downloads, eyc.Mar 15 00:28
schestowitzThis neglects one of the characteristic of human activityMar 15 00:28
schestowitzLike creatitivityMar 15 00:28
balzacthe internal development environment should be competetive yet friendlyMar 15 00:28
schestowitzLike people who work at mills vs /owning/ the millsMar 15 00:28
schestowitzBeing one modern social issue..Mar 15 00:28
oiaohmPeople need to take the point of view with open source its never perfect.  Best it is is ok.   It always can be better.  Good makes you forget about a programs flaws.Mar 15 00:29
balzaccorporate influence should be checked in favor of the general well-being and success of the project.Mar 15 00:29
balzacThe GNU GPL says "free software", not "open source". GCC is not open source.Mar 15 00:29
oiaohmSame has happened with windows.Mar 15 00:29
oiaohmPeople disgrard lot of Windows flaws.Mar 15 00:30
schestowitzbalzac: yes, important to distinguish there.Mar 15 00:30
schestowitzoiaohm: they have investor pressureMar 15 00:30
schestowitzWatch what they did with VistaMar 15 00:30
schestowitzThey knew it was unfitMar 15 00:30
schestowitzThey could take their time and leave XP out thereMar 15 00:30
schestowitzInstead they destroryed trustMar 15 00:31
schestowitzThey are in many ways destoryed nowMar 15 00:31
balzacI'd like to see more funding for GNU so that influence from corporations can be deflected more easilyMar 15 00:31
schestowitzThey have only a couple of valuable eggs in the basketMar 15 00:31
oiaohmVista is a case of over promising then trying to do it.Mar 15 00:31
schestowitzFor the other one (office) they committed crimes (c.f. OOXMLMar 15 00:31
balzacinternal funding would help offset the temptation of developers to hack GCC for the benefit of one company or anotherMar 15 00:31
oiaohmKDE 4.0 made the same mistake of over promising and missing the fine details.Mar 15 00:31
schestowitzoiaohm: KDE4 is OK nowMar 15 00:32
schestowitz4.2.1Mar 15 00:32
schestowitzPeople like itMar 15 00:32
schestowitzI rarely find negative reviewsMar 15 00:32
schestowitzNone I can think of ATMMar 15 00:32
oiaohmExactly they fixed the fine details.Mar 15 00:32
balzacnot saying it's happening, but this issue seems prevalent in quite a few important projects - that third parties try to influence development for themselves in the manner lobbyists try to influence elected officials.Mar 15 00:32
oiaohmWindows 7 is still forgetting the fine details.Mar 15 00:32
schestowitzoiaohm: Vista 7Mar 15 00:32
schestowitzBugfixMar 15 00:32
schestowitzBiggest 'bug': nameMar 15 00:33
schestowitzThey could call it MojaveMar 15 00:33
schestowitzSlim down, change name, change GUIMar 15 00:33
oiaohmSame with kde 4.2.1 is really a bug fix.Mar 15 00:33
schestowitzOh!Mar 15 00:33
schestowitzAnd bribe bloggersMar 15 00:33
schestowitzMany of themMar 15 00:33
schestowitzControl perceptionsMar 15 00:33
oiaohmDifference is kde 4.2.1 covered the key problems.Mar 15 00:33
schestowitzBeause in reality it's the same pig under another nameMar 15 00:33
oiaohmWindows 7 still has major problems.Mar 15 00:33
oiaohmIts more like a KDE 4.1Mar 15 00:33
schestowitzThey realy on only enthusiasts with high-end boxes trying itMar 15 00:33
schestowitzNot the housewife with a single-core Celeron.Mar 15 00:34
oiaohmOpen source and Windows defects line up from time to time.Mar 15 00:34
schestowitzoiaohm: like DebianMar 15 00:34
schestowitzAdd featuresMar 15 00:34
schestowitzThen polish for twice the time or whateverMar 15 00:34
schestowitzMust find tradeoff pointMar 15 00:34
schestowitzKDE4 was a huge leapMar 15 00:35
schestowitzWinFS too high a leap for Windows tooMar 15 00:35
oiaohmWinFS were is it.Mar 15 00:35
schestowitzThey DIDN'T even TRY it in VIssta7Mar 15 00:35
schestowitzWhat does that tell you?Mar 15 00:35
schestowitzThey added nothing MAJOR.Mar 15 00:35
balzacmicrosoft isn't the only company to try to corrupt organizations which ought to be neutral (ISO, for example)Mar 15 00:35
schestowitzThey can'tMar 15 00:35
schestowitzThey are scaredMar 15 00:35
schestowitzbalzac: it's not just ISOMar 15 00:35
schestowitzIt's many moreMar 15 00:35
schestowitzAnother example tomorrow i BNMar 15 00:36
schestowitzOpen UniversityMar 15 00:36
schestowitzCompTIAMar 15 00:36
schestowitzHeh. Even the BBCMar 15 00:36
schestowitzThe BBC is crushedMar 15 00:36
oiaohmWhen Linux gets btrfs MS will have some trouble.Mar 15 00:36
schestowitzThe reputation is bad in the Apple circles tooMar 15 00:36
balzacI think Torvald's attention to keeping people from discussing politics obfuscates all of the political jockeying which happens inside the Linus Kernel project.Mar 15 00:36
schestowitzThe manager of the BBC Internet thingie left a comment in BN earlierMar 15 00:36
balzacnot all of itMar 15 00:36
schestowitzNot for the first timeMar 15 00:36
schestowitzThe BBC doesn't like what I've said about them since the deals with MSMar 15 00:36
balzacschestowitz: agreedMar 15 00:36
*ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p2005-ipad01yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovellMar 15 00:37
schestowitzbalzac: cause it turns off his sponsorsMar 15 00:37
schestowitzImagine a group of programmers who talk about evil corporationsMar 15 00:37
balzacthe only way to "exorcise the demons" of corroption is to allow people to speak out against corrupting influencesMar 15 00:37
schestowitzAgainst lobbying and such...Mar 15 00:37
schestowitzIBM and Intel would finf it damaging,a  turnoff.Mar 15 00:38
balzacwell, if you're going to allow intel, invidia, or some other corporation to get special favor from the kernel project, at least you can be upfront about it.Mar 15 00:38
balzacjust make it officialMar 15 00:38
oiaohmLinus avoids doing anyone a favour.Mar 15 00:38
balzacyes, we're going to favor this company's implementation of sooper-dooper threading techMar 15 00:38
schestowitzushimitsudoki, tessier: "Nokia, in order to take to the next level the Maemo platform - the open source software that powers mobile devices such as the N810 Internet Tablet - is now looking for people." < http://robertogaloppini.net/2009/03/0... >Mar 15 00:39
oiaohmYou code has to be up to standard or its not getting in.Mar 15 00:39
balzacthey gave us some funding, their competitor did notMar 15 00:39
balzacbetter be more generous next time, brand-bMar 15 00:39
balzacoiaohm: but seriously, it's not a frigging meritocracyMar 15 00:39
oiaohmNokia does not want to have to pay anyone for there OS.Mar 15 00:39
balzacit's businessMar 15 00:39
schestowitzoiaohm: Nokia is weirdMar 15 00:40
schestowitzAlso with Symbian at handMar 15 00:40
schestowitzit's like they compete vs themselvesMar 15 00:40
balzacRMS is not Jesus, and of course there's plenty of business which happens inside these projectsMar 15 00:40
schestowitzThey are baffledMar 15 00:40
oiaohmNot really schestowitzMar 15 00:40
schestowitzThey lose share (Symbian)Mar 15 00:40
oiaohmNokia started the Linux project before they got Symbian.Mar 15 00:41
balzacso, people should just not act as if they're fooling anyone when they endorse this tech over thatMar 15 00:41
oiaohmTo untie themselfs from Symbian.Mar 15 00:41
schestowitzoiaohm: which Linux project specifically?Mar 15 00:41
schestowitzMaemo?Mar 15 00:41
schestowitzNokia owned most of SymbianMar 15 00:41
oiaohmThen they got Symbian cheep.Mar 15 00:41
schestowitzLike 70%Mar 15 00:41
balzacif there's a business reason for it, rather than purely the technical merits of the ideaMar 15 00:41
schestowitzThey call it Symbian Foundation nowMar 15 00:42
balzacpeople should not be expected to be absolutely pure eitherMar 15 00:42
schestowitzTo hide the fact that it's just NokiaMar 15 00:42
schestowitzLike "Linux Foundatiion"Mar 15 00:42
oiaohmNokia you have to think about them as a hardware company.Mar 15 00:42
schestowitzCome and help (for free) this 'foundation'Mar 15 00:42
schestowitzMore of an IBM frontMar 15 00:42
schestowitzAmong othersMar 15 00:42
oiaohmWhat they are doing is not wiered.Mar 15 00:42
PeterFAThe estimated cost to redevelop the most recent kernel versions would be at $1.14 billion USD. http://is.gd/nnY6Mar 15 00:42
balzacyeahMar 15 00:42
schestowitzBut with a conceited Jim Zemlin on topMar 15 00:42
balzacI can't help but feel a little cynical about the way words like "community" are thrown aroundMar 15 00:42
oiaohmNokia interest in software is to sell more phones.Mar 15 00:42
oiaohmNot to make profit from software.Mar 15 00:43
schestowitzbalzac: I avoid the word communityMar 15 00:43
oiaohmReally this kind of competior is MS worst nightmare.Mar 15 00:43
balzacI wasn't born yesterday and I'm no chump.Mar 15 00:43
schestowitzReminds me of kumbaya and communismMar 15 00:43
schestowitzUsed against usMar 15 00:43
schestowitzI avoid "community" like I avoid "IP" or "oiracy"Mar 15 00:43
schestowitzI increasingly avoid "open source" tooMar 15 00:44
oiaohmNokia release Qt under LGPL as well when they took that company over.Mar 15 00:44
balzacI know what community is and I'm not going to have a sense of belonging substituted for the money I should be getting.Mar 15 00:44
schestowitzoiaohm: Microsoft wanted to try the sameMar 15 00:44
schestowitzBy buying RIMMar 15 00:44
schestowitzBut it would alienate those who license WMMar 15 00:44
oiaohmIf you look at all software companys Nokia has aquired almost all of them have gone open source.Mar 15 00:44
balzacnor am I going to accept a sense of belonging in place of the freedoms which should be respectedMar 15 00:45
schestowitzbalzac: as Hans B said, there are many communityMar 15 00:45
balzacno Hovo Sapient is going to drain the power from my egoMar 15 00:45
oiaohmNokia 100 percent lack of interest in being a software company shows through.Mar 15 00:45
schestowitzNot "'the' community"Mar 15 00:45
schestowitzThere are many factions with similar goalsMar 15 00:45
schestowitzLike FSFMar 15 00:45
*seller_liar has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Mar 15 00:45
schestowitzBN has its own views tooMar 15 00:45
schestowitzWhich some disagree withMar 15 00:45
schestowitzLinuxToday is oneMar 15 00:45
schestowitzI don't like LXerMar 15 00:46
schestowitzLinuxToday is supportive of BNMar 15 00:46
oiaohmIf nokia moved into the desktop market it would gt interesting.Mar 15 00:46
schestowitzGroklaw tooMar 15 00:46
oiaohmgt/getMar 15 00:46
schestowitzGroklaw doesn't like the lxer community eitherMar 15 00:46
schestowitzPJ anyway...Mar 15 00:46
schestowitzBut Brian Proffitt she likes (LT)Mar 15 00:46
*schestowitz wonders if he's still subscribed to BNMar 15 00:47
schestowitzoiaohm: but Nokia hardly sells softwareMar 15 00:47
schestowitzSince like.. forever.Mar 15 00:47
_Hicham_balzac : have u ever added debian unstable repo to ubuntu?Mar 15 00:47
oiaohmNokia sells hardware that is what would make it interesting.Mar 15 00:48
oiaohmApple without the hardware lock in in the desktop market would cause some interseting effects.Mar 15 00:48
schestowitzhttp://www.paolo-mantovani.org/...Mar 15 00:49
schestowitzoiaohm: not sureMar 15 00:50
schestowitzIt would affect the 'experience'Mar 15 00:50
balzac_Hicham_: I haven't tried thatMar 15 00:50
schestowitzThey can police lots of thingsMar 15 00:50
balzac_Hicham_: I was considering converting my Ubuntu installations to debian by switching reposMar 15 00:50
balzacit depends on how long the ubuntu ops keep my username banned from #ubuntuMar 15 00:51
balzacI told them, i might make an end-run around them, effectively pulling rank if I can pull it offMar 15 00:51
oiaohmHow do you get banned from #ubuntuMar 15 00:51
oiaohmI thought that was impossiable.Mar 15 00:52
balzacwell, I complained that #ubuntu-offtopic wasn't a very inviting nameMar 15 00:52
schestowitzROTFLMAO http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/200... Wow! Microsoft's 'google killer'  looks good... wow! Look at the........ background photos! How can google defeat these graphics?Mar 15 00:52
balzacI prefer the sound of #fedora-social, for exampleMar 15 00:52
_Hicham_balzac : did u try migrating to debian by changing repos?Mar 15 00:52
balzacAlso, I said some irreverant things, like I say here about personal interest inside the project - not about anyone in particularMar 15 00:52
balzac_Hicham_: not yetMar 15 00:53
balzacoiaohm: I spent some time in #ubuntu-opsMar 15 00:53
schestowitz#covert-opsMar 15 00:53
balzacI used Dont_Tase_Me_Bro as my usernameMar 15 00:53
balzacto me, it's funMar 15 00:53
oiaohmOk those look really bad schestowitzMar 15 00:54
balzacthey're just not accustomed to dealing a fully-intact ego, or a sense of humorMar 15 00:54
oiaohmLook at the dragon text its bluring test out.Mar 15 00:54
balzacit's the corporate influence at work in all the major project channels on freendoeMar 15 00:54
balzacfreenodeMar 15 00:54
balzacsurpress your ego, contribute code, sing along with they hymnsMar 15 00:55
balzacknow your place, watch your mouthMar 15 00:55
balzacand maybe you'll get some crumbs eventuallyMar 15 00:55
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balzacthat's corporate culture for youMar 15 00:55
schestowitz@trmanco : why Digg is pretty much screwed, and the likes of it too: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/...Mar 15 00:55
balzacbut I've been cultivating an executive ego, so I don't eat the gruelMar 15 00:56
balzacIt would probably be the same if I were using open solaris or fedoraMar 15 00:57
_Hicham_balzac : go to debian channelMar 15 00:57
balzac_Hicham_: I'll be using Debian more in the futureMar 15 00:57
_Hicham_Ubuntu packages are weirdMar 15 00:57
_Hicham_for exampleMar 15 00:58
_Hicham_mplayer package is two years outdatedMar 15 00:58
_Hicham_even in jauntyMar 15 00:58
balzacI'll continue with Ubuntu as well, but I think I'm a bit older than the average Ubuntu user. Debian is probably closer to my age group.Mar 15 00:58
_Hicham_balzac : :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:DMar 15 00:58
schestowitzIs it really related to age?Mar 15 00:58
balzac_Hicham_: that's the kind of thing I'm talking about - people jockeying for position in the repos.Mar 15 00:58
balzacschestowitz: to some extentMar 15 00:59
balzacI'm 33. I'm too old for Digg.Mar 15 00:59
schestowitzAny numbers?Mar 15 00:59
schestowitzOr just superstition?Mar 15 00:59
balzacmore of a slashdot guy, in terms of age.Mar 15 00:59
_Hicham_you know balzac, u r one of the people that i like the most in this channel :DMar 15 00:59
_Hicham_great sense of humorMar 15 00:59
_Hicham_!Mar 15 00:59
balzacthanks _Hicham_Mar 15 01:00
schestowitzGoogle Won't Remove Pages About You < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/... >Mar 15 01:00
_Hicham_actually im adding debian unstable repo to ubuntuMar 15 01:00
_Hicham_i dont if it will workMar 15 01:00
balzacBut don't be upset if I eventually get into GentooMar 15 01:00
_Hicham_but sometimes i got sick of seeing everything okMar 15 01:00
balzacjkMar 15 01:00
_Hicham_balzac : Gentoo is also greatMar 15 01:01
_Hicham_balzac : Gentoo is the distro of old peopleMar 15 01:01
balzacI'm not saying I don't appreciate Ubuntu thoughMar 15 01:01
_Hicham_old bearded peopleMar 15 01:01
_Hicham_balzac : do u have a beard?Mar 15 01:01
balzacI'm actually going to have to say my choice in distro isn't going to very much related to the ops.Mar 15 01:01
balzacgoateeMar 15 01:01
balzacI'm not the least bit worked up over the issue, personally.Mar 15 01:02
schestowitzIt's possible to draw pictures of users for each distroMar 15 01:02
schestowitzIs there already such a thing?Mar 15 01:02
schestowitzNot the one with woman superheroes...Mar 15 01:02
balzacI was happy to start to get to know the Ubuntu bureaucracy because ultimately I'd like to meet Mark Shuttleworth in person.Mar 15 01:02
_Hicham_distrowatchMar 15 01:03
schestowitzOr the humour 'posters'Mar 15 01:03
_Hicham_balzac : do u live in the US?Mar 15 01:03
schestowitzbalzac: what for?Mar 15 01:03
schestowitzSociety glamorises normal peopleMar 15 01:03
schestowitzIt's part of an imposition systemMar 15 01:03
schestowitzMake a hero, then use him/her to projectMar 15 01:04
balzacRoy, I try to meet people of significanceMar 15 01:04
schestowitzBehaviour, thought, attitude. etc.Mar 15 01:04
schestowitzE.g. for smokingMar 15 01:04
balzacI'm an aspiring entrepreneur.Mar 15 01:04
schestowitzbalzac: what for?Mar 15 01:04
schestowitzStatus?Mar 15 01:04
balzacyepMar 15 01:04
schestowitzOh, so you look for opportunities with themMar 15 01:04
schestowitzOK, that would make more sense.Mar 15 01:04
balzaci already told you i proactively cultivate my egoMar 15 01:04
balzacyeah, well having an open channel of communication is goodMar 15 01:05
schestowitz*sigh*Mar 15 01:05
schestowitzYes..Mar 15 01:05
schestowitzOne of our #bn people writes to WozMar 15 01:05
balzachaving the OPs get out of my way, like bouncers getting out of my way at a club isn't badMar 15 01:05
balzaci don't take social status seriously at all. that's why i'm not ashamed to seek to have mine acknowledged as being very high.Mar 15 01:06
schestowitzOBAMAA is no change: http://blog.wired.com/27bstrok...Mar 15 01:06
schestowitzWatch the imageMar 15 01:06
schestowitzRMS writes: "Obama continues using Bush's bullshit excuse to keep ACTA away from all chance of democracy."Mar 15 01:06
schestowitzTypicalMar 15 01:06
schestowitzCorporate fascismMar 15 01:06
schestowitz"Stay the F out"mocracyMar 15 01:06
schestowitzde-mock-racyMar 15 01:07
schestowitzThat's the stuff I was gonna write about tomorrowMar 15 01:07
schestowitzI have lots of dirt about ACTAMar 15 01:07
schestowitzIf Obama keeps it secret, then he proves to be a corporate tool, sorryMar 15 01:09
balzacI have to look up ACTAMar 15 01:10
balzacokMar 15 01:10
balzacI saw a chinese version of "Kung Fu Panda"Mar 15 01:10
balzacI agree with the idea that people are smart enough to discriminate between real and counterfeitMar 15 01:10
balzacmost of the timeMar 15 01:11
balzaccounterfeit money - I can tell the differenceMar 15 01:11
balzacapparelMar 15 01:11
balzacetcMar 15 01:11
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balzacRoy, Obama needs somebody like you to fight your way past his throng and give him the heads upMar 15 01:12
balzache has to be "served" in the legal sense before you can suppose that his mistakes are not based on ignoranceMar 15 01:13
schestowitzhttp://linuxmednews.com/1236701457 "The OSHIP project is looking for a few more mentors; should it be selected for GSoC 2009"Mar 15 01:13
schestowitzbalzac: he's lobbies by Biden&GoonsMar 15 01:14
schestowitzStill, people like Lessig should prod himMar 15 01:14
schestowitzACTA is NOT newsMar 15 01:14
schestowitzIt's not as though he hasn't had time to think about itMar 15 01:15
balzacObama isn't jesus either and can't be held responsible for everythingMar 15 01:15
schestowitzIt emerged in August of last year in Wikileaks, maybe April.Mar 15 01:15
balzacwell, he hasn't gotten around to clearing the way for Bush to be investigatedMar 15 01:15
schestowitzI wrote like 25 posts about it in BN and maybe 50 in other placesMar 15 01:15
schestowitzIt's igustingMar 15 01:15
schestowitzIt's rotten, it's dictatorshipMar 15 01:15
balzacI'm more concerned with Bush going to prison than ACTAMar 15 01:15
schestowitzAnd I have a list of the culritsMar 15 01:15
schestowitzI'll post culprits list tomorrowMar 15 01:16
balzacObama hasn't even pulled the military out of Iraq yetMar 15 01:16
schestowitzbalzac: that's the "give him another chance" defense.Mar 15 01:16
schestowitzI've heard it too many timesMar 15 01:16
schestowitzHe never expressed intent to change muchMar 15 01:16
balzacRoy, I'm not saying that.Mar 15 01:16
schestowitz"Change" was the motto (or variations of change) for BOTH campsMar 15 01:16
balzacI'm just saying, first Bush ought to go to prison.Mar 15 01:16
schestowitzIt's a PR exerciseMar 15 01:16
balzacOccupation of Iraq should end, same with Afghanistan.Mar 15 01:17
schestowitzThe PR for Obama won an awardMar 15 01:17
schestowitzThey deceive the public betterMar 15 01:17
balzaccampaign finance reform, media reformMar 15 01:17
schestowitzObama would go nowhere near vewis like those of Lessig, Paul, Nader, Chomsky, etc.Mar 15 01:17
schestowitzHe seemed like a toolMar 15 01:17
schestowitzAnd sorry, he *is* showing many times that he just goes with the flowMar 15 01:18
balzacWell, he was with what's-his-name from the Weather UndergroundMar 15 01:18
schestowitzbalzac: bullMar 15 01:18
balzacwhat?Mar 15 01:18
schestowitzObama stays in iraqMar 15 01:18
_Hicham_Obama will change nothingMar 15 01:18
schestowitzand a short while after entering office he bombed targets and took pride in itMar 15 01:18
_Hicham_even though his moto was " We Need Change"Mar 15 01:18
balzacWell, if he's not fully out of Iraq by the next election, I will not vote for him again.Mar 15 01:19
schestowitzWell, he will have made his $$ by thenMar 15 01:19
balzacIf Bush still walks free by the time Obama's 8 years are finished, I won't vote for another Democrat in my lifetime.Mar 15 01:19
schestowitzAlong with his campMar 15 01:19
schestowitzLessig hits the nail on the headMar 15 01:19
_Hicham_balzac : he can't get out of Iraq that easyMar 15 01:19
schestowitzThey give favourMar 15 01:19
schestowitz*s Mar 15 01:19
schestowitzThey cash in aterMar 15 01:19
balzac_Hicham_: I'm aware it's not easy to change thingsMar 15 01:19
schestowitzWashington is a money/favour brothelMar 15 01:20
schestowitzNot just a guncrime capitalMar 15 01:20
balzacBut I have a theory - the repugnicans aren't going to be able to resist polarizing the political landscapeMar 15 01:20
balzacso we'll see a fightMar 15 01:20
schestowitz*LOL* repugnicans.. new to emMar 15 01:20
balzacand then we'll see what happens once the honeymoon is overMar 15 01:20
_Hicham_the honeymoon is overMar 15 01:21
schestowitzLong agoMar 15 01:21
balzacif Obama thinks he can be like Clinton, some repukes will try to pants himMar 15 01:21
schestowitzhttp://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/Mar 15 01:21
balzacRoy, the honeymoon ended with liberals before it even began. But when will the repugs hit below the belt?Mar 15 01:21
balzacThen we may get to see a pissed off Barack ObamaMar 15 01:22
balzacThe repigs will do something to make action necessaryMar 15 01:22
balzacthen maybe the old culprits we're accustomed to despising will be swept out to the margins of societyMar 15 01:23
balzacClinton thought he could be bi-partisan tooMar 15 01:23
balzacthen they pantsed him in publicMar 15 01:23
balzacso, let them try to pants Obama, and then maybe Bush will land in the clinkerMar 15 01:24
Balrog_I don't think it would be ethical to leave Iraq immediately and let it fall apartMar 15 01:24
Balrog_"we" messed it up in the first placeMar 15 01:24
balzacBalrog_: trust me, Iraq is still going to exist, even without Americans patrolling and shooting around.Mar 15 01:25
balzacBalrog_: it would be the most ethical thing to do. Immediate withdrawal.Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_yes, though there may be civil war and lots of lives lostMar 15 01:25
Balrog_that's your opinion; I respect itMar 15 01:25
Balrog_though not necessarily support itMar 15 01:25
balzacMoqtada al Sadr would probably become president of Iraq, but honestly, that's not for Americans to decide.Mar 15 01:25
Balrog_the war should never have been startedMar 15 01:25
oiaohmIraq and Afghanistan Usa placed there goverments in power in the first place.Mar 15 01:26
oiaohmBoth were left overs of the cold warMar 15 01:26
balzacthe US needs to get out quickly. Maybe a arabic/kurdish security deal can be arranged as the occupation is endedMar 15 01:27
schestowitzCoool! Opera support Ogg out of the boxMar 15 01:28
schestowitzExperimental builds.Mar 15 01:28
oiaohmProblem is USA soliders are too incompetent to be a holding force of a country.Mar 15 01:28
oiaohmLot of other countries are also incompetent at it.Mar 15 01:28
Balrog_oiaohm: lately they have been paying former Iraqi insurgents to do itMar 15 01:28
oiaohmUse a thief to catch a thiefMar 15 01:29
Balrog_hehMar 15 01:29
Balrog_but their people trust themMar 15 01:29
balzacoiaohm: our military is not incompetent, the problem is that they don't belong in Iraq.Mar 15 01:29
oiaohmThey are incompetent balzacMar 15 01:30
balzacsome are, some are notMar 15 01:30
balzacbut no military is competent to occupy the land of another ethnic group and religionMar 15 01:30
oiaohmThey have never won a war game against Australian soliders even when they have been given 10 to 1 numbersMar 15 01:30
balzacah yes, the feared Australian military!Mar 15 01:31
oiaohmThey don't know how to correctly build road blocks correctlyMar 15 01:31
balzacnations all around the world tremble when the name "Australia" is heard.Mar 15 01:31
balzacjkMar 15 01:31
oiaohmBest road block is so simple.Mar 15 01:31
oiaohmSnipper and remote camera.Mar 15 01:31
balzacoiaohm: it doesn't matter how competent a military force is, a guerilla insurgency will never end until they get pulled out from where they ought not to be.Mar 15 01:32
oiaohmSolider never gets close enough to be blown up.Mar 15 01:32
oiaohmAustralian soliders have first hand experencing beating guerillas from east timor.Mar 15 01:32
Balrog_I hear that this new strategy (getting former insurgents to provide security) is somewhat workingMar 15 01:32
oiaohmThat strategy is same used in east timor Balrog_Mar 15 01:33
balzacif by "working" you mean, people are still dying violently every day, then yes.Mar 15 01:34
oiaohmbalzac our soliders have trained for years with 1 team being insurgency and another being  a city protector.Mar 15 01:34
balzacthere is a very basic thing to take into accountMar 15 01:34
oiaohmThey got as insane as hiding in engine compartments of trucks to sneak in.Mar 15 01:34
balzacdon't put armed men of a non-native ethnicity in land belonging to another ethnicity for any significant length of time nor for any petty reasonMar 15 01:34
balzacoiaohm: don't sniff glue my friendMar 15 01:35
oiaohmbalzac training here has been way different.Mar 15 01:35
balzacdoesn't matterMar 15 01:35
oiaohmIt does matter balzacMar 15 01:35
oiaohmSoliders not trained correctly end up dead lot more often.Mar 15 01:36
balzacactually, australia needs to change their tune on how the gov relates to native australiansMar 15 01:36
oiaohmAlso end up fueling a insergency problem.Mar 15 01:36
balzacsame as the us, natives sovereignty needs to be acknowledgedMar 15 01:36
oiaohmBecause each one they kill backs up that the insergency is working.Mar 15 01:36
balzacoiaohm: you're thinking about how to make an ethnically-hostile military occupation work?Mar 15 01:37
balzacwhy?Mar 15 01:37
oiaohmSimple fact balzac Australia is huge if invaided our forcus will have to turn insurgency.Mar 15 01:38
oiaohmIts the old case send a theif to catch a theif.Mar 15 01:39
oiaohmThey know how they would do so they cover that.Mar 15 01:39
oiaohmProblem is even importing there near by countries don't stop ethnically-hostile happening.Mar 15 01:40
oiaohmIts not like everyone in east timor liked the Australian forces.Mar 15 01:40
balzacI can see being involved in an insurgency against an occupying force, or a frontal-attack on another force, but I sure wouldn't want to be involved in putting down an insurgency.Mar 15 01:42
oiaohmAustralia has a few times balzac in our own area.Mar 15 01:42
balzacIt doesn't seem like the the occupation of a foreign land is ever right.Mar 15 01:42
schestowitzObama appointee on leave after FBI raid, arrests  < http://www.wtop.com/?nid=596&a... >Mar 15 01:42
oiaohmUSA has major tatical errors for doing it balzacMar 15 01:42
balzacanyway, I've been working at a snails paceMar 15 01:42
balzactoo much interesting conversationMar 15 01:43
oiaohmThey try putting up an appearance of force.Mar 15 01:43
balzacoiaohm: the big mistake was occupying Iraq in the first place.Mar 15 01:43
oiaohmThat is like putting up a huge target sign.Mar 15 01:43
balzacI was against it before it began. Now I want to see Bush go to prison for life.Mar 15 01:43
oiaohmTo fight insurgency you want your forces as invisable as possiable.Mar 15 01:43
oiaohmSo the insurgence walks into traps not you walking into insurgent traps.Mar 15 01:44
balzacI don't intend to be fighting any insurgencies.Mar 15 01:44
oiaohmBeing invisable as possiable reduces the fight.Mar 15 01:44
oiaohmPart of being invisable is training locals to replace you and to provide groups to blend in with.Mar 15 01:45
balzacyeah, like the lone ranger with his trusty side-kick, tantoMar 15 01:46
oiaohmUSA soliders from the get go.  Got everything wrong in iraq.Mar 15 01:46
balzacoiaohm: you need to stop thinking of this drivelMar 15 01:46
balzacgo to a strip club, find a good 'sheila'Mar 15 01:46
balzacyou're obviously caught in an un-fruitful line of thinkingMar 15 01:46
balzaci'm going into NYC to get high and maybe have a lapdance or twoMar 15 01:47
oiaohmUSA had the idea that a big show of force would just give them victory.Mar 15 01:47
_Hicham_oiaohm : USA is wrongMar 15 01:47
oiaohmIf they had studied smaller scalle version Australia had taken on before iraq they would have know that is wrong.Mar 15 01:47
_Hicham_it is just like VietnamMar 15 01:48
balzacoiaohm, _Hicham_, let me remind you that I am American, and I was against Bush from the start. I wanted him impeached immediately.Mar 15 01:48
oiaohmJust like Vietnam really.  Australian had 1 major battle with the natives then mostly got left alone.Mar 15 01:48
balzacso you can say this or that about Bush, or the Pentagon, or the US Gov, but the USA as a whole is not subject to the judgement which befalls the entities I mentioned first.Mar 15 01:49
oiaohmUSA soliders have been since the time of Vietnam soft picking.Mar 15 01:49
oiaohmPurely due to there training.Mar 15 01:49
balzacanyway, your last prime minister or president was quite a toolMar 15 01:50
balzaca bloviating buffoon if I ever saw one.Mar 15 01:50
_Hicham_i cant imagine the amount of money they spentMar 15 01:50
oiaohmPrime minster we are not past political idiotsMar 15 01:50
balzacoiaohm: I'm not responsible for training US soldiersMar 15 01:50
balzacit's not really a problem of mine to worry aboutMar 15 01:50
oiaohmBecides Iraq war all our ships have come home more heavly loaded with gear than when they left to iraq.Mar 15 01:51
balzacbut you maybe should be concerned with entertaining yourself in such a way as to forget war-games and American military catastrophesMar 15 01:51
balzacit's saturday and i'm about to go outMar 15 01:51
oiaohmIe Australia did not go into the iraq war for nothing.Mar 15 01:52
balzacoiaohm: try some shroomsMar 15 01:52
balzacthat might help with what ails youMar 15 01:52
balzacand a nice 'sheila'Mar 15 01:52
_Hicham_balzac : have a fun nightMar 15 01:52
balzacsuppose you go up to a woman in australia and call her "sheila".Mar 15 01:52
oiaohmbalzac if you have a true cilval war in you country your soliders are really not setup for it.Mar 15 01:52
balzacwho would she take that?Mar 15 01:53
balzac_Hicham_: you toMar 15 01:53
balzacoiaohm: really, i'm not the least bit worried about that.Mar 15 01:53
balzacttylMar 15 01:53
oiaohmUSA also copies old stupidity.   The money paying people for entering there houses.   Same thing was done in another country and it started a mafa.Mar 15 01:54
balzacoiaohm: check out a band called Pendulum from AustraliaMar 15 01:57
balzac"Pendulum" - intense rock & roll mixed with DnBMar 15 01:57
balzacif you can catch them live, get high on shrooms at the performanceMar 15 01:58
balzacthank me laterMar 15 01:58
balzacttylMar 15 01:58
oiaohmI should have also point out one of the reasons USA soliders are so useless at times is they are in field high on drugs.Mar 15 01:59
*amarsh04__ is now known as amarsh04Mar 15 02:00
oiaohmBeing kept away by stimulants increase your risk of shooting someone you should not.   Also causes problems.Mar 15 02:01
oiaohmSomething USA people don't want to hear is that there forces are useless.   They have become very much like the britsh in world war two.  Too much time spent believing in force not stratgic planing.Mar 15 02:02
schestowitzDiebold joke (cartoon): http://ars.userfriendly.org/c... Mar 15 02:03
schestowitzNew Open Source Project Monitors Flows of Media < http://www.bespacific.com/m... >Mar 15 02:03
schestowitzgnMar 15 02:04
oiaohmhttp://www.tomshardware.com/pictur...  $16000 dollar computer system what it gets you.Mar 15 02:17
twitterhelloMar 15 02:26
twitterNYT asks where the AIG bailout money went, besides bonuses.Mar 15 02:27
twitterhttp://www.nytimes.com/2009/0...Mar 15 02:27
twitterLOL Dibold, except the damage has been done already.Mar 15 02:28
twitterEight years ago, talk about "stolen elections" seemed incredible, yet a substantial body of evidence has been discovered that all but makes the case beyond doubt.Mar 15 02:30
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_Hicham_I just installed iceweasel on UbuntuMar 15 03:29
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_Hicham_Roy : are u still here?Mar 15 03:52
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amarsh04don't think he is, will reboot nowMar 15 03:58
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_Hicham_everybody is sleeping O:-)Mar 15 04:08
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twittersleep, sleep.Mar 15 04:14
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oiaohmHmm amarsh04_ you appear to be having connection problems.Mar 15 07:02
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schestowitzHeyMar 15 08:16
schestowitzhttp://www.cnet.com/8301-13846_1-10196471-6... (Jim Cramer's full explanation of stock market manipulation (video))Mar 15 08:18
amarsh04hi schestowitz, am setting a record on the slowest pc to write a dvd writhMar 15 08:28
oiaohm255 mhz pent amarsh04?Mar 15 08:51
oiaohmOr are you smaller.Mar 15 08:52
schestowitzWhoaMar 15 08:52
schestowitzWell, people did burn CDs on 486 33MHz...Mar 15 08:52
oiaohmYes buffer underrun protection becomes important.Mar 15 08:52
oiaohmCd x1 slower data speed schestowitzMar 15 08:53
oiaohmYou could do that on a 286.Mar 15 08:53
oiaohmYes level 1 insanity burning a cd on a 286Mar 15 08:53
oiaohmIn theory you could still burn a dvd with a 286Mar 15 08:54
oiaohmBut you would be pushing buffer under run protection to its limit.Mar 15 08:55
schestowitzMake it RTMar 15 08:55
schestowitzHeh. on 286s..Mar 15 08:55
schestowitzAnyway, CDs are being phased out... eventually.Mar 15 08:55
schestowitzNetwork speeds, SD, SSD, USB.....Mar 15 08:56
amarsh04266 PIIMar 15 08:57
oiaohm286 flat will not be able to transfer data fast enough schestowitzMar 15 08:57
oiaohmEven running real time.Mar 15 08:57
oiaohmTo burn a DVD at x1Mar 15 08:57
oiaohmYes you will be pushing the drive under run protection.Mar 15 08:58
oiaohm255 mhz pent was used because I had no option it was the only machine still running amarsh04Mar 15 08:58
amarsh04disc is kept spinning, then actual burning is only done from on-drive bufferMar 15 08:58
amarsh04all normal programs still running, tooMar 15 08:59
oiaohm255 mhz pent was a Linux firewall box.Mar 15 08:59
oiaohmI really hate when windows networks get badly virus infected.Mar 15 08:59
oiaohmAnd they only have dvd media on hand.Mar 15 09:00
amarsh04I ran a pentium 225 mmx for a little while with 192 MiB of EDO RAMMar 15 09:00
oiaohmStill have one with that configuration.Mar 15 09:00
oiaohmI use to have a pent 75 before it gave up the ghost as well.Mar 15 09:00
amarsh04384 MiB of RAM in this machineMar 15 09:00
oiaohmInsane would be dvd burning from a c64Mar 15 09:02
oiaohmYes its possiable but completely insane.Mar 15 09:02
amarsh04one person I knew had a scsi hdd on his c64Mar 15 09:02
oiaohmYepMar 15 09:02
oiaohmscsi dvd burnner with scsi hddMar 15 09:03
schestowitzzoobab01: Do you know which troll they pass it to? http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/2009... (Burst.com sells patent for video technology)Mar 15 09:03
oiaohmNice bit of stressMar 15 09:03
amarsh04create the iso file and have a smart program do dma between two devices on the same busMar 15 09:04
oiaohmYep the only way its going to work with a c64 amarsh04Mar 15 09:04
oiaohmAnd having everyone scratching there head how.Mar 15 09:04
amarsh04these patent robber barons give trolls a bad nameMar 15 09:05
amarsh04it's a sign of good programming that things still work even if very slowly on underpowered hardwaerMar 15 09:06
oiaohmIts sign of loop hole using.Mar 15 09:07
oiaohmNot always good programming.  Some of the code from loop hole users is nasty.Mar 15 09:07
amarsh04dvd drive has written 650 MB in 80 minutesMar 15 09:07
oiaohmYep complete disk about 8 hours.Mar 15 09:08
oiaohmFor some stupid reason it will verifty faster than it will burn the disk.Mar 15 09:08
amarsh04I mean that for example, time-out and underrun errors are generally avoidedMar 15 09:09
amarsh04verify is only reading source and destination and comparing rather than worrying about keeping the on-drive buffer as full as possibleMar 15 09:10
schestowitzBlack fsck software, a company created by MS employee, keeps spreading FOSS FUD to sell its proprietary 'solution': http://www.linuxnewstoday.org/linux-news-...Mar 15 09:10
oiaohmThere is a way to do a block to block verify in scsi amarsh04Mar 15 09:12
oiaohmLet them schestowitzMar 15 09:14
amarsh04I do have a scsi disk in this machine but it's only 4 GiB (DPT 2044W controller)Mar 15 09:14
oiaohmThey are not winning the game long term by doing it.Mar 15 09:14
*amarsh04 still has to send a request for source code to the version of busybox in his adsl2+ routerMar 15 09:15
oiaohmMS starting to burn there bridges to Novell show that MS is not as healthy a they would have everyone think.Mar 15 09:15
oiaohmWhat is your router amarsh04Mar 15 09:15
oiaohmSome have there source code published on line amarsh04Mar 15 09:16
oiaohmHmm news is being slow schestowitzMar 15 09:17
amarsh04opennetworks iconnect 625 - no source online or on cd, but emails from a company employee on busybox mailing listMar 15 09:17
amarsh04will send the company copies of email with a written request, and cc software freedom law centerMar 15 09:19
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, the sooner the betterMar 15 09:19
schestowitzAt least we know where we standMar 15 09:19
schestowitzoiaohm: which news is slow?Mar 15 09:20
schestowitzThe news has been slow since last year (new in general, not just FOSS)Mar 15 09:20
schestowitz*newsMar 15 09:20
oiaohmFor middle of this month there has been very few new products announcements.Mar 15 09:21
schestowitzFor the past 6 monthsMar 15 09:27
schestowitzNothing time specificMar 15 09:27
schestowitzMore products are being canceled, I think (than announced)Mar 15 09:27
oiaohmYepMar 15 09:29
oiaohmWe seam to be heading into a product drought.Mar 15 09:29
oiaohmNow that is going to leave znews and others almost nothing to talk about.Mar 15 09:29
amarsh04maybe we'll see a reduction in planned obsolescenceMar 15 09:30
oiaohmThere is one problem here devices don't last for ever.Mar 15 09:31
schestowitzznews?Mar 15 09:32
oiaohmI missed a dMar 15 09:35
oiaohmoppsMar 15 09:35
oiaohmzdnetMar 15 09:35
oiaohmNo news will basically be fud central.Mar 15 09:36
amarsh04that link to black duck software spouting off shows that the author didn't bother to state that the problem is worse for closed source software than for Free and open source softwareMar 15 09:39
oiaohmOpen source has its problems.Mar 15 09:40
oiaohmSo does windows.  I am so sick of windows users say its numbers of them make them infected.Mar 15 09:40
oiaohmLot of Windows problem are basic rules of secuirty broken.Mar 15 09:41
schestowitzoiaohm: exactly. See this discussion from last night (comments): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/14/bbc...Mar 15 09:42
schestowitzhttp://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/20... (I’m sorry but Dreamweaver is dying)Mar 15 09:43
amarsh04I might go out for a while and leave growisofs to finish its workMar 15 09:43
schestowitzSo suddenly people realise that *shucks* their s/w is closed and going nowhereMar 15 09:43
oiaohmDreamweaver has been a good product.Mar 15 09:43
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*Eruaran (n=quassel@183.110.208.203.cable.dyn.gex.ncable.com.au) has joined #boycottnovellMar 15 09:44
schestowitz."ACT are pretty active advocates of all that makes FOSS difficult or impossible, so it's amazing to see them calling IBM's bluff over open source and FOSS advocates defending them. Now Microsoft has the same strategy as IBM maybe it's time to reconsider who are friends and who are just here to drink the free beer?" ttp://blogs.sun.com/webmink/entry/friday_link_roundup_on_marchMar 15 09:45
oiaohmSun IBM mud throwing.Mar 15 09:48
oiaohmIt will never end any time soon.Mar 15 09:48
schestowitzCisco expected to present servers Monday http://www.topix.net/content/ap/200...Mar 15 09:50
oiaohmCisco should be smart enought be a new entry to the blade market a live.Mar 15 09:52
oiaohmIt will shake IBM and HP up a bit.Mar 15 09:52
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index.php?t... I no longer edit that page. It's too abrasive. :-)Mar 15 10:05
schestowitzLater this year I intend to process the remainder of Comes < http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/inde... > and then establish some form of mapping of influence so as to help people understand how names and tactics/companies relate to one another (e.g. Microsoft->IV, EDGI->Waggener, VMware->IDC). I don't know how to visualise it and properly connect this with evidence.  http://www.sourcewatch.org/index...Mar 15 10:05
schestowitztch is decent.Mar 15 10:05
schestowitzhttp://www.sourcewatch.org/i... that isMar 15 10:06
schestowitzSomeone says: "There must be others who have documented their receiving attacks. Again, it's worth trying for an Ask Slashdot, since Bruce Perens shutdown Technocrat -- (after going off the deep end and using it as a forum to promote inappropriate social agendas, IMHO, that's what killed it.)"Mar 15 10:06
schestowitz"Many have from time to time brought up going after MS for racketeering. However, much of it only amounts to only brief mumbling and grumbling. How would a class-action style effort be started?  RICO and other laws are on the books in the US."Mar 15 10:06
schestowitz"The situation, as posted in my previous blog post, explaining Why the US ecomony has failed, is now playing out deeping, as I watch C-SPAN." http://webhostedservices.com/blog/?p=52Mar 15 10:12
schestowitzMicrosoft shills... ""Formally btw. Mike Sax is said to be the president and founder of ACT but the chain of command is clear. I have an interesting video of a Mike Sax intervention somewhere. Back then I had the impression that he wasn't even a software developer because of the way he talked.""Mar 15 10:22
schestowitz"I always had the impression Sax software was just a fake company set up for the US antitrust case. Sax software formally sells some VB Controls. I don't know where it is but I have seen a video of Zuck from some open document debate in the States hearing where he says he is no lobbyist."Mar 15 10:23
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009...Mar 15 10:23
MinceRgeekingsMar 15 10:27
schestowitzhttp://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2... "The wife and I are celebrating the anniversary of Linux, by watching "RevolutionOS", streaming from Netflix to our TiVo."Mar 15 10:33
trmancohttp://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2009/03/w3...Mar 15 10:37
amarsh04I still haven't seen "RevolutionOS"Mar 15 10:39
oiaohmhttp://www.w3schools.com/brow...  Fairly much slow but steddy grouth.Mar 15 10:39
trmancoFF is beating the crap out of IEMar 15 10:40
trmancohttp://www.w3schools.com/browsers/b...Mar 15 10:40
trmancohas about 3% moreMar 15 10:41
schestowitzIntro to V4L2 "This articles describes the Linux's V4L2 (Video for Linux 2) interface, along with the first steps toward developing a device driver that uses the interface. It is based on Linux 2.6.28, and may not apply to other kernel versions."  http://linuxdevices.com/articles/...Mar 15 10:42
schestowitzamarsh04: you can watch it on Google VideoMar 15 10:42
trmancohttp://singularity.com/images/...Mar 15 10:42
trmancohuman brain powered by LinuxMar 15 10:42
trmanco?Mar 15 10:42
amarsh04ok thanks schestowitzMar 15 10:43
schestowitz10 Extreme Biases You Must Aquire When Switching to Linux < http://www.network0.org/2009.../ >Mar 15 10:47
oiaohmThat super computer model is kinda flawed.Mar 15 10:48
oiaohmHuman brain is compact compared to super computers.   That does make a difference.Mar 15 10:49
schestowitzIt works differently.Mar 15 10:49
schestowitzThink about comparing human metabolism to a car engine.Mar 15 10:50
schestowitzLocalised versus networkedMar 15 10:50
schestowitzIt would be funny if our brain has some little MMU at the centre.. :-) with fans and allMar 15 10:51
schestowitzCool. The OSI blog links to BNMar 15 10:51
oiaohmHuman brain liquid cooling.Mar 15 10:52
oiaohmNone of that primitive air stuff.Mar 15 10:52
oiaohmBoy I don't fit into those 10 biases at all.Mar 15 10:56
oiaohmI use BSD debian and redhat.Mar 15 10:56
schestowitzhttp://www.thevarguy.com/2009/03/13/nov... "I dont worry about Novell distributing as much as them infecting Gnome through their heavy use of mono which is now an integral part of applications like Evolution."Mar 15 11:09
schestowitz"All of Novell’s excemptions dont apply to other other developers/distros so in a way, when Microsoft comes bearing down on the stolen IP in Mono, and they will, it wont be because of the code Novell developers will have contributed it but the ones who are not covered by the patent."Mar 15 11:09
EruaranI think Gnome's future is not rosy if left to the likes of Novell and Miguel de Icaza's "We love Redmond" fan club.Mar 15 11:11
EruaranDevelopers and distributions need to make a clear stand.Mar 15 11:12
EruaranBut I haven't seen that from Gnome devs.Mar 15 11:12
schestowitzThe Linux 1.0 message: http://www.tuxradar.com/content/li...Mar 15 11:14
schestowitzA Real Stimulus: Use Open Source Software < http://brgulker.wordpress.com/2009/03/12... >Mar 15 11:17
amarsh044 hours down, one hour to go in burning a dvdMar 15 11:49
schestowitzHehe.Mar 15 11:55
schestowitzImagine using the same storage with old Iomega tapesMar 15 11:56
amarsh04or floppiesMar 15 12:02
oiaohmI do have a auto floppy loader and unloader around here somewhere.Mar 15 12:06
amarsh04verifying dvd now...Mar 15 12:10
amarsh04system load has gone way down... growisofs was running nice -20Mar 15 12:11
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amarsh04k3b just let out its success buglingMar 15 12:28
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EruaranI changed K3B's 'success' sound to the ping of an oven timer.Mar 15 12:36
amarsh04hehehe EruaranMar 15 12:39
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*mib_0uwjek (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f26ba463b384e1ef) has joined #boycottnovellMar 15 12:58
schestowitzWot?? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File...Mar 15 12:59
schestowitzIsn't that polluting the seas? Putting green dye in rivers?Mar 15 12:59
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*ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p1086-ipad03yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovellMar 15 13:10
oiaohmCould be  natural schestowitzMar 15 13:13
oiaohmIe harmless dye to water ways.  Same used in sea rescues.Mar 15 13:14
oiaohmIf its that one it breaks down in 24 hours.Mar 15 13:14
EruaranFood colouringMar 15 13:15
*ushimitsudoki has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Mar 15 13:18
oiaohmThere are still side effects to what they are doing.   It blocks light from going down through the water very much like a flood.Mar 15 13:19


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