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| prurigro | wouldn't the root technically be a step beyond that? | Apr 07 13:44 |
|---|---|---|
| prurigro | and I always feel like 'human nature' is a bit broad | Apr 07 13:44 |
| prurigro | its a certain possibly genetic cross section of humanity's nature | Apr 07 13:44 |
| prurigro | though socialization is definitely a factor | Apr 07 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Anyone who has worked with working dogs knows that socialization cannot change everything. | Apr 07 13:45 |
| oiaohm | So the question becomes what sections of human nature are solid dna. | Apr 07 13:46 |
| prurigro | everything is both, but there's always a starting point that makes one or another direction easier than others | Apr 07 13:46 |
| oiaohm | Not true | Apr 07 13:46 |
| prurigro | well, everything major we've studied, pretty well | Apr 07 13:46 |
| prurigro | I'd be curious to hear your counter though | Apr 07 13:46 |
| oiaohm | With working dogs some dogs react voliently to pain. | Apr 07 13:46 |
| oiaohm | This is not something you can change. | Apr 07 13:47 |
| prurigro | actually it is | Apr 07 13:47 |
| prurigro | your experience of pain is innate, but your reaction to it is socialized | Apr 07 13:47 |
| prurigro | a good real life example is how most girls react far more to pain, yet feel pain less than most guys | Apr 07 13:47 |
| oiaohm | You can make the working dog attempt to tollerate pain but it will still auto snap. | Apr 07 13:47 |
| prurigro | most guys are socialized to hide their reaction | Apr 07 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Ie they hit by pain there jaw will close. | Apr 07 13:48 |
| prurigro | well, the experience of pain is the nature part | Apr 07 13:48 |
| oiaohm | That is basically a closed circuit in some of htem. | Apr 07 13:48 |
| prurigro | and that you can't change | Apr 07 13:48 |
| prurigro | there's your starting point | Apr 07 13:48 |
| prurigro | how they react, how long they'll hold out for etc | Apr 07 13:49 |
| prurigro | whether they'll freak out when they hit 100% of their tolerance, or at 20% because they've been taught they can stop it before it gets bad by reacting | Apr 07 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Its like hitting a person in the right place on a and causing leg to kick. | Apr 07 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Expect its wired accross there complete body. | Apr 07 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Now if one creature as that. | Apr 07 13:49 |
| oiaohm | I would not be supprised if we don't somewhere. | Apr 07 13:50 |
| prurigro | its wired in a way which involves socialization | Apr 07 13:50 |
| prurigro | at least for humans- I'd imagine dogs too though | Apr 07 13:50 |
| oiaohm | No these are from birth is shows. | Apr 07 13:50 |
| prurigro | yes, the tolerance level is from birth | Apr 07 13:50 |
| MinceR | humans are not dogs | Apr 07 13:50 |
| prurigro | but you could make a dog snap at 20% tolerance as it grows | Apr 07 13:50 |
| MinceR | and not as inflexible | Apr 07 13:51 |
| prurigro | humans are more complex than dogs | Apr 07 13:51 |
| prurigro | more socialization is involved | Apr 07 13:51 |
| prurigro | but I guarentee you that you could teach a dog to snap at a lower pain point | Apr 07 13:51 |
| MinceR | so do i | Apr 07 13:51 |
| MinceR | with the good old buckshot | Apr 07 13:51 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: thing to be aware here its not tollerance to pain its a link. The snap is faster than the dog reaction time. | Apr 07 13:51 |
| prurigro | when you hit the limit, yes | Apr 07 13:52 |
| prurigro | but you could program in the trigger of that limit to occur sooner | Apr 07 13:52 |
| oiaohm | Other dogs hit by pain do nothing or the exact other. | Apr 07 13:52 |
| prurigro | the same neurons will be firing | Apr 07 13:52 |
| oiaohm | and they are that way from birth. | Apr 07 13:52 |
| prurigro | yea, I don't think we're arguing anything at this point-- there's always a starting point caused by nature | Apr 07 13:53 |
| MinceR | you could cut the neurons | Apr 07 13:53 |
| oiaohm | And that starting point builds in some fixed rules. | Apr 07 13:53 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: yes that would be the only way to alter it medical. | Apr 07 13:54 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, you can't say that for fact | Apr 07 13:54 |
| MinceR | the good old gasoline+match trick works too ;) | Apr 07 13:54 |
| prurigro | if you start at 20, its going to be much harder to get to 100 than someone who starts at 80 | Apr 07 13:54 |
| prurigro | but the brain is plastic | Apr 07 13:54 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: really brain is only as plastic as its nerons allow it to be. | Apr 07 13:55 |
| prurigro | MinceR, don't you mean the ol' orbitoclast trick? :) | Apr 07 13:55 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: if dna that guides how nerons are design is effected | Apr 07 13:56 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, this is true-- there's a limit to how far you can shift things, but many things are shift-able, including pain response | Apr 07 13:56 |
| MinceR | prurigro: i had something simpler and more effective in mind :> | Apr 07 13:56 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: exactly dna will be defining the limits. | Apr 07 13:56 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: problem is working out what bits. | Apr 07 13:56 |
| MinceR | but yes, the orbitoclast looks like something that would do the trick | Apr 07 13:57 |
| prurigro | twas its use for many years | Apr 07 13:57 |
| oiaohm | There is a suspect that dopamine receptors how they are designed decided if we can learn from out mistakes or not. | Apr 07 13:58 |
| oiaohm | This would also line up for some dogs I have seen. | Apr 07 13:58 |
| prurigro | dopamine receptors are especially associated with operant conditioning and behavioural response | Apr 07 13:59 |
| prurigro | dogs are gonna be much more involved with this than humans, since more of their behaviour is based on those things | Apr 07 13:59 |
| prurigro | but yea, dopamine is a good direction to go if you want to 'train' something | Apr 07 14:00 |
| oiaohm | Thing is well will not be 100 percent above this. | Apr 07 14:00 |
| prurigro | well will? | Apr 07 14:00 |
| oiaohm | Its like a computer with a suspect cpu. | Apr 07 14:00 |
| oiaohm | It might work but its going to have issues. | Apr 07 14:00 |
| oiaohm | So if we can solve out what the base DNA sets early intvention against some of the most destructive faults might be possible. | Apr 07 14:01 |
| prurigro | for sure | Apr 07 14:01 |
| prurigro | course, then we find out those also cause important, good things in other people that help our society as a whole | Apr 07 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Of course we might find that some peoples brains are not plastic at all. | Apr 07 14:02 |
| prurigro | oh they are | Apr 07 14:02 |
| oiaohm | due to how badly there dna is stuffed. | Apr 07 14:02 |
| oiaohm | In particular areas. | Apr 07 14:02 |
| prurigro | but perhaps some people's brains are more plastic after they finish growing than others | Apr 07 14:02 |
| prurigro | without plasticity, you would have no memories | Apr 07 14:03 |
| prurigro | no learned responses, or learned ideas, or learned languages | Apr 07 14:03 |
| prurigro | less plastic might equal more stubborn though | Apr 07 14:03 |
| oiaohm | Or particular areas only not plastic might equal someone with a major mental disorder. | Apr 07 14:04 |
| prurigro | course, that might also simply be the systems that trigger change in the brain not being as willing to change things-- would you then consider that less plastic? | Apr 07 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Its important to know the difference. | Apr 07 14:04 |
| oiaohm | between not willing to change and not able to change. | Apr 07 14:04 |
| prurigro | well sociopathy is a lack of growth in the emotional centre for many years before slowly working towards catching up | Apr 07 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Ie trying to change a person not able to change is more hurting them and not getting anywhere. | Apr 07 14:05 |
| prurigro | their brains are still plastic though- its just other regions grow in place | Apr 07 14:05 |
| prurigro | and true, though I'd argue that in either of those scenarios, its only hurting someone to change them | Apr 07 14:05 |
| prurigro | its just a question of how you might go about actually changing them down the road | Apr 07 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Really knowing what is changable in them would be a great step forwards. | Apr 07 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Like a person with stuck emmontional center might have fine logic centre. | Apr 07 14:06 |
| prurigro | typically one section not functioning means others function better | Apr 07 14:06 |
| oiaohm | So as long as you can get them to aproce the world with good safe logic | Apr 07 14:06 |
| oiaohm | They may not be a threat. | Apr 07 14:07 |
| oiaohm | This is the problem we need to know what circuits are bust. | Apr 07 14:07 |
| oiaohm | From DNA | Apr 07 14:07 |
| oiaohm | And from life. | Apr 07 14:07 |
| prurigro | it could be too that a sociopath, while possibly a psychopath, also drives certain important parts of society | Apr 07 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Basically the plastic idea is good but is important to know the plastic you are working with basically. | Apr 07 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Part of that is expecting there will be some set properities about it. | Apr 07 14:09 |
| prurigro | everything has properties | Apr 07 14:09 |
| oiaohm | Each person can have different ones. | Apr 07 14:09 |
| prurigro | each person does | Apr 07 14:09 |
| oiaohm | And I think this is why some treatments fail so badly. | Apr 07 14:09 |
| prurigro | its why some people prefer ibuprofin and others prefer acetaminophen | Apr 07 14:10 |
| oiaohm | I was born with dyslexia as well. I have been able to reduce it from being clased as non functional to until today. | Apr 07 14:10 |
| prurigro | and why one on one patient care is pretty key for anything complicated | Apr 07 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Thing is mine is light triggered. | Apr 07 14:11 |
| prurigro | hmm interesting | Apr 07 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Just like people who have eplispy that is light triggered. | Apr 07 14:11 |
| prurigro | do you ever get ideas crossed like words might? | Apr 07 14:11 |
| prurigro | and what do you mean? dark rooms you can read properly? | Apr 07 14:11 |
| oiaohm | Its a particular freq blue. | Apr 07 14:12 |
| prurigro | oh damn, I love blue light | Apr 07 14:12 |
| oiaohm | So color filter in my glasses lens | Apr 07 14:12 |
| prurigro | blue light is wired into the emotional centre | Apr 07 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Its not all blue. prurigro | Apr 07 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Its one freq zone. | Apr 07 14:12 |
| prurigro | I assume that one frequency would be tied to the set of neurons that triggers the confusion then | Apr 07 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Gets really interesting to say the least. | Apr 07 14:13 |
| prurigro | sorta like how synesthetics might taste something different for each unique colour frequency | Apr 07 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Its linked to the language centers perfectly. | Apr 07 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Stuffs up verbal and writing. | Apr 07 14:14 |
| prurigro | language in your head too? or just when you attempt to give it form? | Apr 07 14:14 |
| oiaohm | My verbal stuff up is funny. I put the sounds out of order. | Apr 07 14:14 |
| oiaohm | But the person who hears it under stands what I have said then gets all confused. | Apr 07 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Because the sounds don't match the words. | Apr 07 14:15 |
| prurigro | like the syllables? or the pitch? | Apr 07 14:15 |
| oiaohm | phoninces out of order. | Apr 07 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Is the closest I can describe it. | Apr 07 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Yet person hearing it matches words up correct other than the confusion that follows. | Apr 07 14:15 |
| oiaohm | Some people take the faint option. | Apr 07 14:16 |
| prurigro | lol | Apr 07 14:16 |
| prurigro | does this occur in your head too? | Apr 07 14:16 |
| prurigro | or I guess you wouldn't be able to tell, necessarily? | Apr 07 14:16 |
| prurigro | like, you would hear the correct thing right? | Apr 07 14:17 |
| prurigro | to your ears? | Apr 07 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Problem is I don't know I have done | Apr 07 14:17 |
| oiaohm | To me I sound like I have talked perfectly normally. | Apr 07 14:17 |
| oiaohm | Its the expressions on the person listerning face. | Apr 07 14:17 |
| prurigro | interesting-- so the confusion has happened both in the output and the feedback | Apr 07 14:17 |
| oiaohm | That gives away that I did it. | Apr 07 14:17 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: and its perfectly matched at the time. | Apr 07 14:18 |
| prurigro | that makes me feel like the crossed wires occur literally in the language center | Apr 07 14:18 |
| oiaohm | Thinking it effects my reading. | Apr 07 14:18 |
| oiaohm | So write scrambled and it appears to me as perfectly fine as well. | Apr 07 14:18 |
| prurigro | if encoding it into speech and decoding it back into your brain both read it the same way | Apr 07 14:18 |
| oiaohm | This is a really evil form of dyslexia. | Apr 07 14:18 |
| prurigro | no kidding | Apr 07 14:19 |
| prurigro | I've known one other person with it, and she only had it on the input end | Apr 07 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Lucky I found what the on switch was. | Apr 07 14:19 |
| prurigro | like she couldn't tell upsidedown letters from upsideup | Apr 07 14:19 |
| prurigro | etc | Apr 07 14:19 |
| prurigro | how about keyboard? | Apr 07 14:19 |
| oiaohm | Its effected | Apr 07 14:19 |
| prurigro | I know how to type based on patterns that represent words, not necessarily how the resulting letters appear on the screen | Apr 07 14:20 |
| oiaohm | Yes it language centre that is stuffed. | Apr 07 14:20 |
| prurigro | interesting-- it seems strange to think your muscle memory for producing a single 'symbol' that is a word on the screen could get played out of order the same as your mouth could | Apr 07 14:21 |
| prurigro | but it does make sense | Apr 07 14:21 |
| oiaohm | Other thing I learnt was that other nerons were copying the defective. | Apr 07 14:21 |
| oiaohm | So it took me years to undo the programming of the others. | Apr 07 14:21 |
| oiaohm | I am talking over 15 years to bring my typing and writing to somewhere near usable. | Apr 07 14:21 |
| prurigro | is it specific words that always get jumbled the same ways? | Apr 07 14:21 |
| prurigro | or random? | Apr 07 14:22 |
| oiaohm | With blue light feed fully random. | Apr 07 14:22 |
| oiaohm | Any word. | Apr 07 14:22 |
| oiaohm | After I blocked it. It was specific words more than others. | Apr 07 14:22 |
| prurigro | and in different ways each time? | Apr 07 14:22 |
| prurigro | like, to differentiate 'random words' from 'random distortions' | Apr 07 14:24 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: at my worse it was before I worked out that blue light in particular freq was a trigger it was odds on that I would do a 2 letter word the wrong way. | Apr 07 14:24 |
| oiaohm | Random words and random distortions | Apr 07 14:24 |
| oiaohm | At my worst | Apr 07 14:24 |
| prurigro | interesting | Apr 07 14:24 |
| oiaohm | also gets worse | Apr 07 14:24 |
| prurigro | sounds like maybe when you weren't at your worst, if certain ones got it more than others, it might have been the learned stuff, like you were saying | Apr 07 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Word order in sentences was shuffling. | Apr 07 14:25 |
| oiaohm | As well | Apr 07 14:25 |
| oiaohm | Found trigger stopped the random generator basically. | Apr 07 14:25 |
| oiaohm | But that left a stack of badly program nerons. | Apr 07 14:25 |
| prurigro | word, yea, that makes sense | Apr 07 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Process to fix them hurts like hell. | Apr 07 14:26 |
| prurigro | neurons literally programmed to create random distortions | Apr 07 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Its simple but surprisingly painful. | Apr 07 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Take a lists of random generated letters and numbers. | Apr 07 14:26 |
| oiaohm | Read list of like 4 letters to me I have to keep on going until I can repeat them back right. | Apr 07 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Keep on going until you get able todo 10 to 12 letters/numbers | Apr 07 14:27 |
| prurigro | oh man, when you have no idea you're doing it? | Apr 07 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Yep. | Apr 07 14:27 |
| oiaohm | Lets say its frustration from hell. | Apr 07 14:28 |
| oiaohm | You are 100 percent sure you said it right. | Apr 07 14:28 |
| prurigro | lol man, yea, that would drive me crazy | Apr 07 14:28 |
| oiaohm | But its the only cure that works. | Apr 07 14:28 |
| oiaohm | For a case like mine. | Apr 07 14:29 |
| oiaohm | Also human brain does not like it either. Human brain does not like being force to rewire so it generates massive feeling of pain. | Apr 07 14:29 |
| prurigro | I mean, there've been times where I've been so worn out I'd mix stuff up words/sentences etc, but I've always been aware of my poor performance | Apr 07 14:29 |
| prurigro | and yea, the brain seems to resist change, especially after its done hardening | Apr 07 14:30 |
| oiaohm | These days I am become aware normally inside 15 mins of stuffing up. | Apr 07 14:30 |
| prurigro | ~25-30 years for most processes | Apr 07 14:30 |
| oiaohm | Its still not instant. | Apr 07 14:30 |
| prurigro | word interesting | Apr 07 14:30 |
| prurigro | do you ever get ideas mixed up in the same way? | Apr 07 14:30 |
| prurigro | like left and right? | Apr 07 14:30 |
| prurigro | or apple and microsoft? j/k | Apr 07 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Not ideas. | Apr 07 14:31 |
| oiaohm | I normally annoy the hell out of people with my memory. | Apr 07 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Remember when I was young I could not write my self notes. | Apr 07 14:31 |
| prurigro | ahh true! | Apr 07 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Because I would not be able to read them 24 hours latter. | Apr 07 14:31 |
| oiaohm | Yes that is the really evil bit. | Apr 07 14:32 |
| prurigro | I actually listened to an interesting talk about older societies a while back | Apr 07 14:32 |
| oiaohm | I would be able to read the mess at the time. | Apr 07 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Latter I was stuffed. | Apr 07 14:32 |
| prurigro | and how societies before the common person could write had people with, on average, wayyyy better memories than anyone today | Apr 07 14:32 |
| oiaohm | Because it was like the encryption key changed. | Apr 07 14:32 |
| prurigro | and wow, that sucks | Apr 07 14:33 |
| prurigro | you wouldn't have even been able to record it in voice | Apr 07 14:33 |
| oiaohm | You can see why my dyslexia rating was non functional. | Apr 07 14:33 |
| prurigro | pattern passwords would have been great | Apr 07 14:33 |
| prurigro | and yea, no kidding eh | Apr 07 14:33 |
| prurigro | so maybe a good way to tell if you're currently not making sense is if other people are also not making sense? | Apr 07 14:33 |
| oiaohm | No that is the weired bit. | Apr 07 14:34 |
| oiaohm | I could not see or here the difference between my own scrambled and other people non scrabled. | Apr 07 14:34 |
| oiaohm | All I could watch for is there confused experessions or frustrations. | Apr 07 14:34 |
| prurigro | ahh word, so if you got someone else to write down a password properly for you | Apr 07 14:34 |
| prurigro | you could use that note? | Apr 07 14:35 |
| oiaohm | Yes | Apr 07 14:35 |
| prurigro | that's interesting | Apr 07 14:35 |
| prurigro | quite different from normal dyslexia in effect too | Apr 07 14:35 |
| prurigro | since usually, it makes people unable to learn, but able to interact with what they know | Apr 07 14:35 |
| prurigro | you'd be able to learn everything around you, but not interact | Apr 07 14:35 |
| prurigro | virtually the same problem, but almost the converse problem set | Apr 07 14:36 |
| oiaohm | Yet to anyone looking at what I was producing I would look a lot like a normal dyslexia at extream end. | Apr 07 14:36 |
| oiaohm | So its a evil form of curse because it going to be miss diagnosed. | Apr 07 14:37 |
| prurigro | yea, like 100% of all the potential problems they would have associated dyslexia with | Apr 07 14:37 |
| prurigro | you're in your 20s? 30s? | Apr 07 14:37 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: 30s | Apr 07 14:37 |
| prurigro | word, they woulda been just getting used to the idea that dyslexia existed around the time you were having problems eh? | Apr 07 14:38 |
| oiaohm | I am Australian so English is meant to be my first language. So yes some of the wrong words being used is left overs. | Apr 07 14:38 |
| oiaohm | It was politically correctness gone wrong in Australia back then. | Apr 07 14:39 |
| prurigro | 80s? | Apr 07 14:39 |
| prurigro | canada was taking their cannonball into political correctness around that time too afaik | Apr 07 14:39 |
| prurigro | late 70s-early 80s being the big boom | Apr 07 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes they knew what dyslexia was but the could not call you that because you might be discriminated against so you had to be tagged with everyone else with a learning disability. | Apr 07 14:40 |
| oiaohm | Yes upside down completely stupid logic. | Apr 07 14:40 |
| MinceR | why not give it a number, then? :> | Apr 07 14:40 |
| oiaohm | If you don't call something what it is you cannot treat it. | Apr 07 14:40 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: might as well for the difference it would have made. | Apr 07 14:41 |
| prurigro | "I'm very sorry... your son has 5" | Apr 07 14:41 |
| oiaohm | Just to make thing really fun I was deaf for the first 6 years of my life | Apr 07 14:41 |
| MinceR | i thought more along the lines of "learning disability type 5" | Apr 07 14:41 |
| oiaohm | So I have other interesting effects from that. | Apr 07 14:41 |
| MinceR | at least the people of science would know what it means | Apr 07 14:42 |
| oiaohm | My balance is done by eyes not ears so I get into big big trouble on ships. | Apr 07 14:42 |
| prurigro | yea though, ADD, autism, dyslexia, down syndrome and muscular dystrophe all have extremely different problems and solutions, yet the kids with all of those pretty well were grouped in the same 'special ed' class when I went to school | Apr 07 14:42 |
| prurigro | and wait, how were you deaf then but not now? | Apr 07 14:42 |
| oiaohm | Glue ear. | Apr 07 14:43 |
| MinceR | huh? | Apr 07 14:43 |
| oiaohm | Where infection completely fills the inner ear with junk so it cannot work. | Apr 07 14:43 |
| prurigro | MinceR, most things other than actual learning disabilities are actually learning disabilities | Apr 07 14:43 |
| prurigro | and hmm, I think I saw a kid with that in grade 2 | Apr 07 14:43 |
| prurigro | I'm totally guessing, cuz I never found out what it was | Apr 07 14:43 |
| prurigro | but it looked like there was like hardened candle wax coming from his ear? | Apr 07 14:44 |
| oiaohm | No you cannot see this. | Apr 07 14:44 |
| prurigro | ahh | Apr 07 14:44 |
| prurigro | the mystery lives on | Apr 07 14:44 |
| oiaohm | This is behind the ear drum itself. | Apr 07 14:44 |
| prurigro | ouch-- scary place for issues | Apr 07 14:44 |
| oiaohm | Completely makes the ear non functional. | Apr 07 14:44 |
| oiaohm | In my case it was both. | Apr 07 14:44 |
| oiaohm | I found out that leaning on walls I could hear vibrations. | Apr 07 14:45 |
| oiaohm | And I was prity good at lip reading. | Apr 07 14:45 |
| oiaohm | So I hid the fact I was deaf for quite a while. | Apr 07 14:45 |
| MinceR | ic | Apr 07 14:45 |
| oiaohm | Until kindagarden. when I had a teacher from a deaf school that caught me out. | Apr 07 14:45 |
| oiaohm | And I still hate the doc who fixed my ears at times for his error. I can hear particular dog whissles that normal humans should not be able to due to a error in the clean out process. | Apr 07 14:46 |
| oiaohm | If you go 1000 hz above where normally humans should not be able to hear I have a window of 3000 hz on from there I can hear. | Apr 07 14:47 |
| prurigro | oh man, wait, this is a bad thing? | Apr 07 14:48 |
| oiaohm | Right in high freq dog whissle tertory. | Apr 07 14:48 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: when you wake up some of those dog whissles do 120 DB | Apr 07 14:48 |
| oiaohm | And people wonder why there dogs don't come to them. | Apr 07 14:48 |
| oiaohm | And if I happen to be near a person who blows one of those I am really cursing the doc at that point. | Apr 07 14:49 |
| prurigro | so you might still have lost that natural range people lose as they get older? (the reason places in britian have high frequency kid-scaring devices outside their shops) | Apr 07 14:49 |
| prurigro | and lol | Apr 07 14:49 |
| prurigro | you should curse the people blowing the whistles too | Apr 07 14:49 |
| prurigro | does it hurt to hear? | Apr 07 14:49 |
| oiaohm | 120 db down right. | Apr 07 14:49 |
| oiaohm | I have ripped a whistle like that off a ladys neck snaping ithe cord in the process due to the pain. | Apr 07 14:50 |
| oiaohm | It was basically stop the whistle at all costs. | Apr 07 14:50 |
| oiaohm | Other than that no. | Apr 07 14:50 |
| prurigro | oh man haha | Apr 07 14:51 |
| prurigro | she was using a bit much perhaps? | Apr 07 14:51 |
| oiaohm | She was shocked went to yell at me then saw I was in tears. | Apr 07 14:51 |
| oiaohm | Lucky she was a nice lady. | Apr 07 14:52 |
| prurigro | haha no kidding eh | Apr 07 14:52 |
| oiaohm | when I pointed out the problem she never used a whissle like that on her dog again. And for some reason the dog was better behaved. | Apr 07 14:52 |
| prurigro | oh you knew this woman? | Apr 07 14:52 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 07 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Only met her 3 times. | Apr 07 14:53 |
| oiaohm | Never got her name. | Apr 07 14:53 |
| oiaohm | The first time was when I ripped the whistle off her neck. | Apr 07 14:53 |
| oiaohm | There are some people I wish I had got there name that is one of them. | Apr 07 14:53 |
| prurigro | interesting | Apr 07 14:54 |
| prurigro | common routes I guess? | Apr 07 14:54 |
| oiaohm | At collage and shortest route took you threw a park where people liked to walk dogs. | Apr 07 14:55 |
| oiaohm | Or in other words if I was running late I had a path of land mines. | Apr 07 14:55 |
| prurigro | no kidding! | Apr 07 14:56 |
| prurigro | man, what a terrible situation for someone who could happens to be stick with that frequency range | Apr 07 14:56 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: really made me one of the least late for class. | Apr 07 14:57 |
| oiaohm | So there is always good and bad. | Apr 07 14:58 |
| oiaohm | Late equals running gaultent you are more motived to avoid it. | Apr 07 14:58 |
| prurigro | haha | Apr 07 14:59 |
| prurigro | so you went through college-- I guess this was after figuring stuff out to some extent eh? | Apr 07 15:00 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: I did not say I passed. | Apr 07 15:01 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: yes I was still figgerint it out back then. | Apr 07 15:01 |
| prurigro | oh ouch | Apr 07 15:01 |
| oiaohm | So I failed my first round of collage because I had guess that I would be able to handle my dylexia better than I could and | Apr 07 15:01 |
| oiaohm | Run into some stupid rules. | Apr 07 15:01 |
| prurigro | they didn't offer special features to help? | Apr 07 15:02 |
| oiaohm | 1 since I could basically read write and do basics back then I was no longer allowed help. | Apr 07 15:02 |
| oiaohm | I planned on getting assistance that I did not get basically. | Apr 07 15:02 |
| oiaohm | A true ouch. | Apr 07 15:02 |
| prurigro | word, intense-- I think most institutions help anyone with a diagnosed condition these days | Apr 07 15:02 |
| oiaohm | 1995 they were not that good. | Apr 07 15:03 |
| prurigro | funny how we're less politically correct these days, yet actually help people more | Apr 07 15:03 |
| oiaohm | Around 2000 they started getting common sense. | Apr 07 15:03 |
| oiaohm | Basically 5 years too soon. | Apr 07 15:03 |
| oiaohm | Since then I have studied mostly external. | Apr 07 15:04 |
| oiaohm | Where I can source my own assistance. | Apr 07 15:04 |
| prurigro | word-- what are you doing these days? | Apr 07 15:05 |
| MinceR | http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/549309_338865852828966_241806149201604_911655_1871116646_n.jpg | Apr 07 15:06 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a web page! Aborting image/jpeg type | Apr 07 15:06 |
| oiaohm | Network administration, network design, staff training.... | Apr 07 15:07 |
| oiaohm | Basically it is IT I do it prurigro | Apr 07 15:07 |
| prurigro | haha, no kiddin' eh | Apr 07 15:08 |
| oiaohm | I got into IT because without it I would not have passed highschool. | Apr 07 15:08 |
| oiaohm | And the school I was at had no IT officer. | Apr 07 15:08 |
| prurigro | funny, the girl I know with dyslexia ended up doing IT too-- she designed serial number generators too for a while when she was in school again | Apr 07 15:08 |
| prurigro | wonder what it is about computers | Apr 07 15:08 |
| oiaohm | Not really. | Apr 07 15:09 |
| oiaohm | computers can assist us. | Apr 07 15:09 |
| oiaohm | spell checkers items like wordnet and so on. | Apr 07 15:09 |
| prurigro | they also have nice concise fonts too | Apr 07 15:09 |
| prurigro | I suppose | Apr 07 15:09 |
| prurigro | depending on where your issues lie | Apr 07 15:09 |
| oiaohm | Exactly. | Apr 07 15:09 |
| oiaohm | Think of computer to a person with dyslexia as a walking stick to someone with a dud leg. | Apr 07 15:10 |
| oiaohm | Most of us with dyslexia don't play games that much with computers becuase they normally don't equal fun to us. | Apr 07 15:11 |
| prurigro | MinceR, except C is like the oldschool guy who can do everything better than the new kid with all the fancy schoolin' and gadgets | Apr 07 15:11 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, games aren't fun? | Apr 07 15:11 |
| MinceR | except the new kid can do everything the oldschool guy can do and then some | Apr 07 15:11 |
| MinceR | and the new kid can do it on a greater scale | Apr 07 15:12 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: I know this will sound strange is. I like card games board games.... Real material games. | Apr 07 15:12 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: but I have also found this common with other people with dyslexia I meet in IT. | Apr 07 15:12 |
| prurigro | MinceR, the new kid makes it easier to organize large projects due to the strict schooling they've done, but they produce slower and less interesting code | Apr 07 15:13 |
| MinceR | another myth | Apr 07 15:13 |
| MinceR | try building object-oriented code in C | Apr 07 15:13 |
| MinceR | it's an error-prone mess and not faster than C++ | Apr 07 15:13 |
| prurigro | MinceR, I learned it in university and had it confirmed many times since- and we're talking about making the same program in each, not trying to use C to write C++ :) | Apr 07 15:13 |
| oiaohm | That depends on the complier MinceR | Apr 07 15:14 |
| oiaohm | I have build object based code in C | Apr 07 15:14 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, curious-- I wonder if that's just because the computer has too much else to do, compared to what some people are drawn to computers for-- do you like console games? | Apr 07 15:14 |
| oiaohm | Normally smart enough to use a processing engine in the style of vala. | Apr 07 15:14 |
| prurigro | if you're using C to build object based code, then you're not using C as its designed-- at that point I feel like you should go with C++ | Apr 07 15:15 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: vala is not c, though. and c++ started as a frontend to c. :> | Apr 07 15:15 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: console games not particularly that much. | Apr 07 15:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: vala still generates pure c. | Apr 07 15:15 |
| MinceR | not the same thing | Apr 07 15:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: and result can be faster than c++ | Apr 07 15:15 |
| prurigro | c++ reduces variability and therefore potential optimization | Apr 07 15:15 |
| MinceR | it can also be slower | Apr 07 15:15 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: mostly due to the weight of C++ virtual tables. | Apr 07 15:15 |
| MinceR | prurigro: what? | Apr 07 15:16 |
| prurigro | c++ is more structured | Apr 07 15:16 |
| oiaohm | C++ brings a lot of payload along for the ride. MinceR | Apr 07 15:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: vtables are pretty much a must if you need polymorphism | Apr 07 15:16 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: and if you don't, the c++ compiler won't generate them. | Apr 07 15:16 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: issue comes down to the fact most C++ compliers are still not smart with them. | Apr 07 15:17 |
| MinceR | prurigro: c++ is a superset of c. whatever c can express, c++ can express in pretty much the same way. | Apr 07 15:17 |
| oiaohm | You do a little polymorphism on one function. | Apr 07 15:17 |
| oiaohm | And it gets the idea you need a house full of it. | Apr 07 15:17 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: not exactly difficult: if your class has no virtual methods, it won't have a VMT. if it has at least one, it will have one. | Apr 07 15:17 |
| prurigro | MinceR, yes, c++ is ontop of C, but it can't vary as much in form if you're using c++ how its designed to be used | Apr 07 15:17 |
| prurigro | its not really like wsywig vs vim, but its in that direction | Apr 07 15:18 |
| prurigro | its all html in the end | Apr 07 15:18 |
| MinceR | what | Apr 07 15:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its over creating virtual methods that will not be used in the program in real world. | Apr 07 15:18 |
| MinceR | have you even seen c++? | Apr 07 15:18 |
| prurigro | I've written quite a few programs with it | Apr 07 15:18 |
| prurigro | and c for that matter | Apr 07 15:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: is where the overhead I am talking about comes from. | Apr 07 15:18 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: that's up to the programmer. | Apr 07 15:18 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its basically a optimisation problem. | Apr 07 15:18 |
| MinceR | if virtual methods are needed, create them. if not, don't. | Apr 07 15:19 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if you are recycling code between projects. | Apr 07 15:19 |
| oiaohm | This is where it comes undone. | Apr 07 15:19 |
| oiaohm | complier needs to be a little smart and go ok virtual method has been asked for here and will never ever be used. | Apr 07 15:20 |
| oiaohm | So I can do away with it. | Apr 07 15:20 |
| oiaohm | Maybe this will come with the next few generations of compliers. | Apr 07 15:20 |
| prurigro | http://stackoverflow.com/questions/1618957/is-c-faster-than-c | Apr 07 15:21 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Is C faster than C++? - Stack Overflow .::. Size~: 142.53 KB | Apr 07 15:21 |
| prurigro | this is a pretty good answer, and is basically inline with what I was trying to get across | Apr 07 15:21 |
| prurigro | and gets into what oiaohm was saying too | Apr 07 15:22 |
| prurigro | about vtables etc | Apr 07 15:22 |
| MinceR | doesn't support your argument | Apr 07 15:22 |
| MinceR | the difference is what you do, not which language you do it in. | Apr 07 15:22 |
| MinceR | if you need the extra features of c++, doing it on c will result in a buggy, unmaintainable mess (i've seen it happen) | Apr 07 15:22 |
| MinceR | if not, there will not be a difference in the performance of your code. | Apr 07 15:23 |
| prurigro | I wasn't debating that | Apr 07 15:23 |
| MinceR | and some of the features, like namespaces, don't even cost you anything in runtime, | Apr 07 15:23 |
| MinceR | s/.$/./ | Apr 07 15:23 |
| prurigro | c++ and class based languages in general are very much oriented around long term maintenance | Apr 07 15:23 |
| MinceR | what's wrong with long term maintenance? | Apr 07 15:23 |
| prurigro | absolutely nothing | Apr 07 15:23 |
| prurigro | but you're sacrificing low level tweakage that can result in a C program being more efficient than a C++ program | Apr 07 15:24 |
| prurigro | its a cost benefit situation | Apr 07 15:24 |
| MinceR | it can also result in your c program being a buggy mess | Apr 07 15:24 |
| MinceR | and it can also result in your c program being less efficient than the c++ version | Apr 07 15:24 |
| prurigro | if you spend oodles of time, you can make a c program that operates like a C++ program with stability and long term maintainability, and surely you could probably write a c++ program as optimized as the equivalent c program (in functionality, not code structure) | Apr 07 15:25 |
| prurigro | but a reasonable amount of time on either will result in those costs, typically | Apr 07 15:25 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: IDL and other solutions and be used to avoid the downside as well. | Apr 07 15:25 |
| prurigro | you can make both unmaintainable and slow if you don't knw what you're doing | Apr 07 15:26 |
| MinceR | i don't think that CORBA lets you dodge this issue | Apr 07 15:26 |
| MinceR | prurigro: there are huge differences between the two, though | Apr 07 15:26 |
| MinceR | the first is "do lots of stuff the compiler would do, but by hand", the second is "write the same code, avoiding certain keywords, maybe using some more language features" | Apr 07 15:27 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: or do the 3 option. | Apr 07 15:28 |
| oiaohm | Write a processing engine to generate tighter C than what C++ would. | Apr 07 15:29 |
| prurigro | hmm, I mean, I haven't sat down and hammered out benchmarks of various conditions to see, but the way it was explained in school was that by using a class-based structure to organize your code, you're using a common format for the connecting parts of the overall structure, and the fact that its a common format means that the potential optimizations are more rigid | Apr 07 15:30 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: in other words, write a better c++ compiler | Apr 07 15:31 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: not all tasks do you need what c++ complier does. | Apr 07 15:32 |
| MinceR | prurigro: sounds like a statement someone who's never programmed would make. :> | Apr 07 15:32 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: look at modern samba and the like for the ammout of generated code. | Apr 07 15:33 |
| prurigro | MinceR, you don't think it sounds more like a generalization for an incomplete understanding of how c++ compilers compare to c compilers? | Apr 07 15:34 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: its also like vala that are using glib object. So writing C++ in there basically battles C++ struct.against the glib object struct. | Apr 07 15:35 |
| MinceR | prurigro: could be | Apr 07 15:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: depending what you are working on depends if C++ really fits or not. | Apr 07 15:35 |
| prurigro | I'm doing my best with what knowledge I do have in that particular realm to explain what I was taught anyway, which backs up against that stackoverflow response | Apr 07 15:35 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: one way you could cay C++ is too formal at times to work well. | Apr 07 15:36 |
| prurigro | but rather than attack the way I'm explaining it, why not educate as to why that wouldn't be the case? If you don't believe it to be so? | Apr 07 15:36 |
| oiaohm | Ok better get to bed starting to scrabble. | Apr 07 15:36 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, haha-- spellcheck starting to get you? | Apr 07 15:36 |
| oiaohm | cay instead of say | Apr 07 15:37 |
| MinceR | what exactly is "more rigid" that would actually stand in the way of optimizations? | Apr 07 15:37 |
| MinceR | using a more specific way to explain potentially dangerous casts? | Apr 07 15:37 |
| MinceR | type safety (which you can still override)? | Apr 07 15:37 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: if the library you are dealing with has something like vtables. | Apr 07 15:37 |
| MinceR | additional features you don't have to use? | Apr 07 15:37 |
| oiaohm | But is not. | Apr 07 15:37 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, haha-- word, well no sense in exacerbating bad habits | Apr 07 15:37 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: if it has vtables, it probably has them because it needs them | Apr 07 15:37 |
| oiaohm | C++ is not designed to take advantage of it. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| MinceR | polymorphism is a useful feature | Apr 07 15:38 |
| oiaohm | So you end up with duplication. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| MinceR | and if you needed to do what it does then you can't do it with less overhead, in most cases. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| oiaohm | glib objects support polymorphism to a point. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| oiaohm | That is the difference I am point to. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| MinceR | it seemed to me that vala does have virtual methods | Apr 07 15:38 |
| oiaohm | There are more than one way to do the polymorphism. | Apr 07 15:38 |
| prurigro | MinceR, my understanding includes the idea that if you don't have to use classes in the first place, your code will stand as optimized as C code, first of all | Apr 07 15:39 |
| MinceR | so what magic happens? | Apr 07 15:39 |
| oiaohm | vala is using the glib object structs todo it. | Apr 07 15:39 |
| MinceR | prurigro: mostly yes. though you could still use generic functions, for example. | Apr 07 15:39 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: that explains nothing | Apr 07 15:39 |
| MinceR | what magic happens in those structs? | Apr 07 15:39 |
| oiaohm | vtable like functionalty exists in glib object design. | Apr 07 15:40 |
| oiaohm | But its the wrong shape for c++ | Apr 07 15:40 |
| MinceR | still doesn't explain anything | Apr 07 15:41 |
| prurigro | if you structure your code based on classes that inherit classes that extend classes and so on however, you're looking at more easily managed code, but you've also spread things out into a more 'rigid' structure, that allows for the potential of less speedy functionality | Apr 07 15:41 |
| prurigro | you'll agree that someone could potentially code an extremely difficult to maintain 'hack' that is faster than a cleanly laid out series of functions? | Apr 07 15:42 |
| MinceR | i suppose so | Apr 07 15:42 |
| oiaohm | C++ is ridgid in how it wants to do polymophism. MinceR. When you hit something like glib object that was design to allow polymophism in C. You find yourself in a little bind. | Apr 07 15:42 |
| MinceR | and then the resulting program could well be both umaintainable and unreliable | Apr 07 15:42 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: yes, i know there are more flexible ways to do polymorphism. but they have more overhead than that. | Apr 07 15:43 |
| oiaohm | C++ compliers were not design with the idea of include the possiblity of using a different polymorphism. | Apr 07 15:43 |
| prurigro | exactly-- but if you extend that to simply being maintainable vs being more easily maintainable-- that's how the the comparison from c to c++'s speed was made to me, sorry if my wording wasn't up to part :) | Apr 07 15:43 |
| oiaohm | So you end up back in the same old boat of hard to maintain code when you have to interface with a non C++ polymorphism. | Apr 07 15:44 |
| prurigro | it sounds like oiaohm is explaining a similar story in better detail | Apr 07 15:44 |
| oiaohm | from C++ | Apr 07 15:44 |
| oiaohm | There are areas C++ could be improved basically. | Apr 07 15:44 |
| oiaohm | Better means to interface with different styles of dealing with things would be a great help. | Apr 07 15:45 |
| MinceR | if you mean better means to interface above everything, code in assembly. | Apr 07 15:45 |
| MinceR | then everything's going to be equally difficult. | Apr 07 15:45 |
| prurigro | assembly is less portable | Apr 07 15:45 |
| prurigro | I do like writing in assembly though | Apr 07 15:46 |
| oiaohm | There is more than one way of doing object programing. | Apr 07 15:46 |
| oiaohm | C++ Pascel...... And many others MinceR | Apr 07 15:46 |
| oiaohm | Problem is each of them did it there own way. | Apr 07 15:46 |
| MinceR | lol, pascal | Apr 07 15:46 |
| prurigro | oiaohm, pascal can use objects?! | Apr 07 15:46 |
| oiaohm | It does include classes. | Apr 07 15:46 |
| MinceR | someone still uses pascal? | Apr 07 15:47 |
| prurigro | word, I guess I never made it that far before moving on | Apr 07 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Object C is another beast. | Apr 07 15:47 |
| prurigro | I learned it for fun in ~1998 after getting annoyed with vb | Apr 07 15:47 |
| oiaohm | Basically there are a stack of beasts. | Apr 07 15:47 |
| oiaohm | No central langage that is really designed to cope with them at the object level. | Apr 07 15:47 |
| oiaohm | So you normally end up using c to hack up bridges. | Apr 07 15:48 |
| prurigro | I hear go is pretty good | Apr 07 15:48 |
| prurigro | that's OO isn't it? | Apr 07 15:48 |
| MinceR | objective c is a mess, not just a beast | Apr 07 15:48 |
| MinceR | no, go is not oo | Apr 07 15:48 |
| oiaohm | go uses another stuct patern of it own. | Apr 07 15:48 |
| oiaohm | OO has basically been invented a few too many times. | Apr 07 15:49 |
| oiaohm | Opps OOP | Apr 07 15:49 |
| MinceR | no, it was invented once, with simula :> | Apr 07 15:49 |
| oiaohm | Ok how todo it was invented a few too many times. | Apr 07 15:50 |
| MinceR | yup | Apr 07 15:50 |
| oiaohm | Problem is nothing exists to properly bridge all the forms of OOP back into one piece. | Apr 07 15:50 |
| oiaohm | So you end up with areas where the different design OOP fights with each other. | Apr 07 15:50 |
| oiaohm | leading to bad outcomes. | Apr 07 15:51 |
| MinceR | so don't use oop? | Apr 07 15:51 |
| oiaohm | And if you don't use oop you might as well use C and stuffer. | Apr 07 15:51 |
| oiaohm | Suffer. | Apr 07 15:51 |
| prurigro | I think a company like oracle would have a hard time maintaining oracle db without OO | Apr 07 15:51 |
| MinceR | so just give up because there's an extremely unlikely case of having difficulties? | Apr 07 15:52 |
| MinceR | i think oracle would have a hard time maintaining anything, though | Apr 07 15:52 |
| prurigro | I think he's just outlining 'what' the problem is | Apr 07 15:52 |
| MinceR | what i've seen of the oracle db was "let's buy another little company and through their stuff on the junk pile too" | Apr 07 15:52 |
| prurigro | not necessarily making a decision based on the existence of problems, or denying the existence of problems in other directions too | Apr 07 15:52 |
| oiaohm | I was outlining what the problem is. | Apr 07 15:52 |
| prurigro | I recently heard oracle referred to as bigO, and thought it was rather fitting :) | Apr 07 15:52 |
| oiaohm | I would love to see a solution to the OOP problems. | Apr 07 15:52 |
| prurigro | ^^ agreed | Apr 07 15:53 |
| oiaohm | Part of the solution to the OOP problem would be extending C++ and other langauges to be more tollerent of each other structs. | Apr 07 15:53 |
| prurigro | my only other issue with OO programming is purely a social one, and not the fault of OO whatsoever | Apr 07 15:53 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: when I first did programming goto was always bad | Apr 07 15:55 |
| oiaohm | years latter they learnt there are particular cases where goto is good. | Apr 07 15:55 |
| prurigro | yea, I remember being taught goto, and then being told never to use it | Apr 07 15:55 |
| prurigro | but yea, its more of a 'never unless absolutely necessary' kinda rule isn't it | Apr 07 15:55 |
| MinceR | oiaohm: that doesn't mean use goto for everything, though | Apr 07 15:55 |
| prurigro | haven't found a need personally yet though-- where is goto useful anyway? | Apr 07 15:56 |
| MinceR | error handling | Apr 07 15:56 |
| prurigro | MinceR, use the right tool for the job, I figure | Apr 07 15:56 |
| MinceR | cleanup | Apr 07 15:56 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: beat me to it. | Apr 07 15:56 |
| prurigro | ahh-- interesting, but makes sense | Apr 07 15:56 |
| oiaohm | To get out of those nested loops of hell without doing even worse code as well. | Apr 07 15:57 |
| MinceR | c++ has a much better way, though: exceptions. | Apr 07 15:57 |
| prurigro | haha-- I always feel like I could be coding it better if its simply a loop issue though | Apr 07 15:57 |
| prurigro | and yea, throwing exceptions is nice | Apr 07 15:57 |
| prurigro | c sorta has that in unix | Apr 07 15:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: there are still cases where that don't work. | Apr 07 15:57 |
| prurigro | not sure about windows | Apr 07 15:57 |
| prurigro | via signals | Apr 07 15:57 |
| MinceR | another thing you could use in non-oop code | Apr 07 15:57 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: once you start getting too deep in execption handlers. | Apr 07 15:57 |
| oiaohm | You kinda want the exception to lead out prity darn quick. | Apr 07 15:58 |
| oiaohm | Not spend the next how hell long solving out all the handlers. | Apr 07 15:58 |
| prurigro | for every solution, eh? | Apr 07 15:58 |
| oiaohm | goto is for when you are going to be doing a stack of stupid and pointless things. | Apr 07 15:59 |
| oiaohm | To get from point a to point b | Apr 07 15:59 |
| oiaohm | That make no sense being run at all. | Apr 07 15:59 |
| oiaohm | Error handling is one of the more common cases. | Apr 07 16:00 |
| oiaohm | Multi stack loop leaving is another. | Apr 07 16:00 |
| prurigro | figure c++ uses goto for its exceptions? | Apr 07 16:00 |
| MinceR | maybe setjmp/longjmp | Apr 07 16:01 |
| oiaohm | exception handling in c++ atters platform to platform. | Apr 07 16:01 |
| prurigro | hmm figures | Apr 07 16:01 |
| oiaohm | dwarf unroll on Linux is not exact that fast. | Apr 07 16:01 |
| oiaohm | So you don't want to be doing that too many times. | Apr 07 16:01 |
| prurigro | http://play.golang.org/ | Apr 07 16:01 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: NO TITLE .::. Size~: 1.25 KB | Apr 07 16:01 |
| MinceR | that's why it's called an exception :> | Apr 07 16:01 |
| oiaohm | MinceR: and its where goto is good at times so you don't trip 20 of them when only 1 is required. | Apr 07 16:02 |
| prurigro | still good to state outloud, I mean, some people use functionality in the craziest, non-design ways | Apr 07 16:02 |
| MinceR | duff's device is fun :> | Apr 07 16:03 |
| oiaohm | goto was designed before call and return. | Apr 07 16:03 |
| oiaohm | So it was design todo everything at first. | Apr 07 16:03 |
| oiaohm | We just latter on worked out that it was not exactly sane todo that. | Apr 07 16:03 |
| prurigro | haha-- I suppose it is a direct grab from assembly | Apr 07 16:04 |
| prurigro | or at least 8086 assembly | Apr 07 16:04 |
| prurigro | I assume others use it too (that's the only one I have experience with) | Apr 07 16:04 |
| oiaohm | goto is older than 8086 | Apr 07 16:04 |
| prurigro | figured as much- but I didn't want to state without knowing for sure :) | Apr 07 16:04 |
| MinceR | can't do much with a cpu that has no way to do unconditional jumps :> | Apr 07 16:04 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: first known appearance of goto is fortran. | Apr 07 16:05 |
| prurigro | no kidding eh | Apr 07 16:06 |
| oiaohm | 1957 | Apr 07 16:06 |
| oiaohm | Yep a darn long way back. | Apr 07 16:06 |
| oiaohm | Xt computer 1987 | Apr 07 16:07 |
| prurigro | oh cool- just looking at the wiki page now, and I had a ton of those coding forms as a kid | Apr 07 16:07 |
| prurigro | had no idea what they were for though | Apr 07 16:07 |
| oiaohm | Funny that. | Apr 07 16:07 |
| oiaohm | 30 years difference. | Apr 07 16:07 |
| prurigro | Xt = second? | Apr 07 16:07 |
| oiaohm | goto is one of those prehistory things that dont' die. | Apr 07 16:07 |
| oiaohm | The first IBM XT computer | Apr 07 16:08 |
| oiaohm | 1987 | Apr 07 16:08 |
| prurigro | well now that its a feature at the lowest level of ~99% of chips | Apr 07 16:08 |
| prurigro | ahh word | Apr 07 16:08 |
| oiaohm | goto is a repsentation of the asm jump statement. | Apr 07 16:08 |
| prurigro | I was always a c64 kid myself | Apr 07 16:08 |
| oiaohm | For some reason goto stuck over jump. | Apr 07 16:09 |
| prurigro | and hmm- was the term goto not in asm itself? | Apr 07 16:09 |
| oiaohm | goto does not exist in asm. | Apr 07 16:09 |
| prurigro | maybe I combined the ideas in my memories since they're the exact same | Apr 07 16:09 |
| MinceR | jmp does, though | Apr 07 16:09 |
| prurigro | ahh, lets go with that theory then : | Apr 07 16:09 |
| MinceR | just a different name for the same thing :> | Apr 07 16:09 |
| MinceR | in fact, i suspect that there's a mnemonic system that does call it goto | Apr 07 16:09 |
| oiaohm | It was fortran that named jump goto | Apr 07 16:09 |
| oiaohm | And it stuck for some reason. | Apr 07 16:10 |
| MinceR | GEMA had pretty weird names for instructions | Apr 07 16:10 |
| MinceR | (like trap for int) | Apr 07 16:10 |
| oiaohm | AT&T vs Intel is always fun. | Apr 07 16:10 |
| MinceR | :) | Apr 07 16:10 |
| oiaohm | Yes the two major asm syntaxs | Apr 07 16:11 |
| oiaohm | and if you could have chalk and cheese you could not have done better. | Apr 07 16:11 |
| prurigro | oh man, trap/int would confuse the shit out of me lol | Apr 07 16:11 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: really you don't know confusion. | Apr 07 16:12 |
| MinceR | lol | Apr 07 16:12 |
| oiaohm | http://asm.sourceforge.net/articles/linasm.html | Apr 07 16:12 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Using Assembly Language in Linux .::. Size~: 19.26 KB | Apr 07 16:12 |
| oiaohm | The top of that shows the two major syntaxs. prurigro | Apr 07 16:13 |
| prurigro | interesting, I think I learned at&t syntax | Apr 07 16:13 |
| prurigro | although some of what I learned seems more intel | Apr 07 16:14 |
| MinceR | i learned a bit of z80 assembly, then forgot it | Apr 07 16:14 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: yep and some microcontrols asm tool is a prick. | Apr 07 16:14 |
| prurigro | its not something I find you end up refreshing very often | Apr 07 16:14 |
| oiaohm | And requires a mix of both. | Apr 07 16:14 |
| MinceR | then learned intel, and GEMA, then i saw some AT&T | Apr 07 16:14 |
| oiaohm | get it wrong then it don't built. | Apr 07 16:14 |
| MinceR | hm, there was PIC too | Apr 07 16:14 |
| prurigro | I think I was using boreland | Apr 07 16:15 |
| MinceR | (that controller is such a mess) | Apr 07 16:15 |
| oiaohm | Please note at&t width of operation control. | Apr 07 16:15 |
| oiaohm | at&t is the more flexable asm. | Apr 07 16:15 |
| oiaohm | So some horid chips you end up forced back to At&t | Apr 07 16:16 |
| prurigro | flexible as a standard? | Apr 07 16:17 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: more flexable in language. | Apr 07 16:17 |
| prurigro | a little off topic, but either of you hear of 0x10c? | Apr 07 16:17 |
| oiaohm | You mean that game. | Apr 07 16:18 |
| prurigro | yea | Apr 07 16:18 |
| prurigro | supposed to essentially involve programming assembly to control the world or something | Apr 07 16:18 |
| oiaohm | I think someone wants to win a goverment mil contact. | Apr 07 16:18 |
| prurigro | lol | Apr 07 16:18 |
| oiaohm | prurigro: its to control like the weaponsystems of the ship and the like. | Apr 07 16:18 |
| MinceR | i've read about it | Apr 07 16:19 |
| prurigro | oh word, rules seem more rigid than minecraft's universe | Apr 07 16:19 |
| oiaohm | So you can optimise you craft to beat all commers. | Apr 07 16:19 |
| oiaohm | Most likely more ridged than the game I play. | Apr 07 16:20 |
| oiaohm | http://vegastrike.sourceforge.net/ | Apr 07 16:20 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Vega Strike - Home .::. Size~: 17.4 KB | Apr 07 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Ok not exactly play. | Apr 07 16:20 |
| oiaohm | Build custom craft into and play friends with. | Apr 07 16:20 |
| MinceR | http://www.xonotic.org/ | Apr 07 16:21 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Xonotic .::. Size~: 20.15 KB | Apr 07 16:21 |
| prurigro | oh interesting! | Apr 07 16:21 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Quit: by all) | Apr 07 16:22 | |
| prurigro | in both directions | Apr 07 16:22 |
| prurigro | MinceR, the one you posted-- I've read the briefing, but can you give your own angle on it? | Apr 07 16:22 |
| MinceR | one of my favorite FPSes, and this one is free. looks good, runs on intel GMA, its mods are cross-arch (thanks to QuakeC), has lots of stuff familiar from q3a and the UT series | Apr 07 16:23 |
| MinceR | plus they've made sure their mode of fast movement is not so weird (bunny-hopping) | Apr 07 16:24 |
| MinceR | and of course it's a futuristic FPS | Apr 07 16:24 |
| prurigro | haha, so true about other fps' (bunnyhopping)-- how extensible is it? | Apr 07 16:24 |
| MinceR | at least as moddable as quake, but the engine and the game is free, so if you need to, you can extend those too | Apr 07 16:26 |
| MinceR | also, iirc they've improved QuakeC to make it more flexible | Apr 07 16:26 |
| prurigro | oh sweet-- based on q3a too? | Apr 07 16:29 |
| MinceR | based on the DarkPlaces engine, which is based on the quake engine | Apr 07 16:30 |
| prurigro | ohhh, I sorta remember loading up darkplaces for something... maybe a quake2 port? | Apr 07 16:31 |
| prurigro | seemed like quite the flexible engine | Apr 07 16:31 |
| MinceR | no, quake 1 | Apr 07 16:31 |
| prurigro | ahh, was that it? very likely | Apr 07 16:32 |
| prurigro | its capable of more than the q3 engine though? | Apr 07 16:32 |
| MinceR | not sure, but it does appear pretty modern | Apr 07 16:33 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1498937 | Apr 07 16:34 |
| TechrightsSocial | @schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The Problem With Software Patents in the United States http://techrights.org/2012/04/07/us-swpats/ #swpats #us | Apr 07 16:34 |
| TechrightsSocial | -> Title: The Problem With Software Patents in the United States | Techrights .::. Size~: 81.64 KB | Apr 07 16:34 |
| schestowitz | "This is indeed a serious problem. Hopefully we will eventually be able to demand that congress passes a bill that outlaws patents in the US. " | Apr 07 16:34 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1498886 | Apr 07 16:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | @schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Apple Quality http://techrights.org/2012/04/07/apple-quality/ #android #linux | Apr 07 16:35 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 16:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | -> Title: Apple Quality | Techrights .::. Size~: 81.63 KB | Apr 07 16:35 |
| schestowitz | "I have personally met some of those so-called 'elitists'. I once dated one. " | Apr 07 16:35 |
| schestowitz | I want details. Did she frequently shout "Steve" in bed? Did you guys use the heat from the bottom of a Mac Book Pro as birth control? | Apr 07 16:35 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 16:35 |
| schestowitz | I always remember how she insisted she didn't have ipHone 4 but a 4S. | Apr 07 16:36 |
| MinceR | lol | Apr 07 16:36 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1498886 | Apr 07 17:07 |
| TechrightsSocial | @schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: #Apple Quality http://techrights.org/2012/04/07/apple-quality/ #android #linux | Apr 07 17:07 |
| schestowitz | "wow. I had a Mac Book Pro. Never again." | Apr 07 17:07 |
| TechrightsSocial | -> Title: Apple Quality | Techrights .::. Size~: 81.63 KB | Apr 07 17:07 |
| schestowitz | overpriced BS | Apr 07 17:07 |
| schestowitz | the "Pro' in Apple's products doesn't mean anything | Apr 07 17:08 |
| schestowitz | Manybe PRO for PRODUCT | Apr 07 17:08 |
| qu1j0t3 | of course it doesn't mean anything | Apr 07 17:13 |
| qu1j0t3 | ... | Apr 07 17:13 |
| qu1j0t3 | just like the 'one' in 'CK one' doesn't mean anything. | Apr 07 17:13 |
| qu1j0t3 | it does however distinguish products | Apr 07 17:14 |
| qu1j0t3 | the 'Tony' in 'Tony Blair' doesn't mean anything | Apr 07 17:14 |
| qu1j0t3 | but we'd be in a mess if every Blair was just called 'A Blair' | Apr 07 17:14 |
| qu1j0t3 | but there are much better reasons to not buy Apple than being an Apple hater. | Apr 07 17:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | i personally won't buy apple products until they make their supply chain sustainable and respectful to workers. which will never happen. | Apr 07 17:15 |
| qu1j0t3 | unfortunately, those problems are across the industry... | Apr 07 17:15 |
| MinceR | i personally won't buy crApple products as long as they keep being crap and some others aren't | Apr 07 17:18 |
| schestowitz | apple doesn't make stuff | Apr 07 18:14 |
| schestowitz | so it's hard to see how they can distinguish themselves based on "quality" | Apr 07 18:15 |
| MinceR | they do manage, though | Apr 07 18:15 |
| MinceR | not in the direction they say, though | Apr 07 18:15 |
| schestowitz | maybe they integrate good components together, but it's not as though large companies like ASUS cannot do this too, more cheaply | Apr 07 18:15 |
| schestowitz | Today I could choose between generic pasta and a branded paste | Apr 07 18:16 |
| schestowitz | difference is, one is twice is expensive | Apr 07 18:16 |
| schestowitz | nutritial value the same | Apr 07 18:16 |
| schestowitz | pasta is paste | Apr 07 18:16 |
| schestowitz | as long as it ain't recycled sludge masquerading as paste, why choose the branded package with marketing and more colours? | Apr 07 18:16 |
| schestowitz | Apple is the branded paste. It's better known, you can just assume it's better, but you might be wrong. | Apr 07 18:17 |
| MinceR | actually, there can be difference between different pasta | Apr 07 18:19 |
| MinceR | different quality of components, different recipe | Apr 07 18:20 |
| schestowitz | not prepared | Apr 07 18:28 |
| schestowitz | "That's so painfully true..." https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1499169 | Apr 07 18:28 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a Diaspora post? | Apr 07 18:28 |
| schestowitz | Except the egg, dough, etc. | Apr 07 18:28 |
| schestowitz | think flour or fish | Apr 07 18:28 |
| MinceR | and the ratio at which they're mixed | Apr 07 18:28 |
| MinceR | for example | Apr 07 18:28 |
| schestowitz | yeah, probably not a profound difference | Apr 07 18:30 |
| schestowitz | not as profound as price differences | Apr 07 18:30 |
| MinceR | quality has its cost :> | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | that's what Apple says | Apr 07 18:31 |
| MinceR | they don't deliver | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | right | Apr 07 18:31 |
| MinceR | others do | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | they can raise the cost without doing anything about quality | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | just marketing | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | as some companies that produce foods do as well | Apr 07 18:31 |
| schestowitz | it's what you think of the quality, what the quality actually is | Apr 07 18:32 |
| MinceR | my thoughts about quality are based on my experience of it | Apr 07 18:32 |
| schestowitz | what if you have none? | Apr 07 18:32 |
| MinceR | what do you mean? | Apr 07 18:32 |
| schestowitz | and you're just one tester | Apr 07 18:33 |
| schestowitz | what if you didn't try $BRAND? | Apr 07 18:33 |
| MinceR | then i probably don't know it | Apr 07 18:33 |
| MinceR | unless there are other ways to find out | Apr 07 18:33 |
| schestowitz | so yuo limit what you're willing to go for based on what you already have | Apr 07 18:33 |
| MinceR | do i? | Apr 07 18:34 |
| schestowitz | yeah,the rest if "unknown" | Apr 07 18:34 |
| MinceR | why does it have to be unknown? | Apr 07 18:34 |
| schestowitz | you did not try it | Apr 07 18:39 |
| XFaCE | schestowitz: talk about pedantic... | Apr 07 18:40 |
| MinceR | i can try them all | Apr 07 18:41 |
| MinceR | i can look at them, i can check the instructions label, i can look up reviews and ratings | Apr 07 18:42 |
| XFaCE | j/k | Apr 07 18:42 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: and then we rely on others | Apr 07 18:50 |
| MinceR | we rely on others anyway | Apr 07 18:50 |
| schestowitz | [18:32] <MinceR> my thoughts about quality are based on my experience of it | Apr 07 18:51 |
| MinceR | including the ones who produced the ingredients, and the ones who produced the pasta | Apr 07 18:51 |
| schestowitz | Some things we have no experience with, so we rely on others' | Apr 07 18:51 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: yes, a chain of trust | Apr 07 18:51 |
| schestowitz | check out the top menu here... http://desk.stinkpot.org:8080/blog/index.php/2007/10/11/gallery2-lightbox quite cool | Apr 07 18:55 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: gallery2 + lightbox » from the desk of stinkpot .::. Size~: 25.73 KB | Apr 07 18:55 |
| MinceR | ew, there's a hypePod | Apr 07 18:57 |
| schestowitz | Nice blog though | Apr 07 18:59 |
| schestowitz | he has been blogging for 7 years | Apr 07 18:59 |
| schestowitz | he also uses icalendar | Apr 07 18:59 |
| schestowitz | I installed this in my site like 8 years ago | Apr 07 19:00 |
| schestowitz | haven't used it in years, just experimented | Apr 07 19:00 |
| schestowitz | at the time I ttried exporting my Palm data as ical and import it, which I succeeded | Apr 07 19:00 |
| schestowitz | but it's for people who share their life.. lik FB crap | Apr 07 19:00 |
| MinceR | russia endorses nostalgy for their communist dictatorship >> http://www.politics.hu/20120405/jobbik-and-christian-dem-youth-wing-ask-for-removal-of-central-soviet-war-memorial/ | Apr 07 19:02 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Jobbik and Christian Dem youth wing ask for removal of central Soviet war memorial | Politics.hu .::. Size~: 60.16 KB | Apr 07 19:02 |
| schestowitz | Jobbik LOL | Apr 07 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Christian Dem... | Apr 07 19:03 |
| schestowitz | Like Muslim Brotherhood | Apr 07 19:03 |
| MinceR | it's sad enough that only they seem to think that this is a problem | Apr 07 19:03 |
| schestowitz | brotherly except when they chop some heads off or whatever | Apr 07 19:03 |
| MinceR | advertising the conquering army of a dictatorship as "liberators" on a square named "liberty square" | Apr 07 19:03 |
| MinceR | what the fuck, hungarians? what the fuck, russians? | Apr 07 19:04 |
| schestowitz | hahaha | Apr 07 19:04 |
| schestowitz | That's so typical | Apr 07 19:04 |
| schestowitz | When UK/US army of occupiers was in some nations they left some gifts too | Apr 07 19:04 |
| schestowitz | and Spanish also | Apr 07 19:04 |
| schestowitz | Usually, IMHO, the occupier gets lots of power and then can do anything to history | Apr 07 19:05 |
| schestowitz | like implant a religion | Apr 07 19:05 |
| schestowitz | If there's no proper occupation, there's no assimilation | Apr 07 19:05 |
| schestowitz | MinceR: what does the "Stan" in country name represent? | Apr 07 19:09 |
| MinceR | i think it just means "country", but i'm not sure | Apr 07 19:09 |
| schestowitz | I started thinking, maybe Stalin with silent L :-) | Apr 07 19:10 |
| MinceR | https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/-stan | Apr 07 19:10 |
| MinceR | nah | Apr 07 19:10 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: -stan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 79.33 KB | Apr 07 19:10 |
| MinceR | it's persian | Apr 07 19:10 |
| MinceR | meaning "place of" | Apr 07 19:10 |
| schestowitz | " In Indo-Aryan languages, sthāna means "place", and is cognate to the Latin terms state and status (meaning "to stand")." | Apr 07 19:10 |
| schestowitz | So you like in an "absurd place" | Apr 07 19:11 |
| MinceR | i don't like it, but i live in it | Apr 07 19:11 |
| schestowitz | come to London.. not Poland | Apr 07 19:11 |
| schestowitz | Poles go to the UK, or try to | Apr 07 19:11 |
| schestowitz | although a friend of mine from Poland got back there... | Apr 07 19:11 |
| schestowitz | Absurdiستان | Apr 07 19:12 |
| schestowitz | Hunga†y | Apr 07 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Hunga十y | Apr 07 19:13 |
| schestowitz | Vi✗tor Orban | Apr 07 19:13 |
| schestowitz | for PRESIDENT... and Great Leader | Apr 07 19:14 |
| schestowitz | Jobbik is too far-right for Orban.. for rebelling against occupation | Apr 07 19:14 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1494877# | Apr 07 19:45 |
| TechrightsSocial | @schestowitz@joindiaspora.com: The State of #Linux Wireless. Is it better yet? http://www.internetnews.com/blog/skerner/the-state-of-linux-wireless.-is-it-better-yet.html | Apr 07 19:45 |
| TechrightsSocial | -> Title: The State of Linux Wireless. Is it better yet? - InternetNews. .::. Size~: 32.26 KB | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | Problems remain and in some cases it's worse. I wasted two or three days visiting bib box stores recently. | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/TQAbHWuFVHT https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/1avwZFWrxrj https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/F9mvzHY9FRu | Apr 07 19:45 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - I wish that I'd done this a year ago when I first got the… .::. Size~: 87.46 KB | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | The software available at the desktop level is fantastic but the Microsoft supply chain is worse than ever. I finally solved my problem by trying out a collection of older cards at a local computer store. I'm suspicious of contributions from companies that have been obnoxious and favored Microsoft so obviously for so long. If they mean what they say it's a great thing. | Apr 07 19:45 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - I hate Netgear, Belkin and Cisco. Over the last two days, I… .::. Size~: 88.64 KB | Apr 07 19:45 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - Last week, I was irritated about not being able to find a… .::. Size~: 87.55 KB | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | Problems remain and in some cases it's worse. I wasted two or three days visiting bib box stores recently. | Apr 07 19:45 |
| schestowitz | https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/TQAbHWuFVHT https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/1avwZFWrxrj https://plus.google.com/u/0/113579520393333767984/posts/F9mvzHY9FRu | Apr 07 19:46 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - I wish that I'd done this a year ago when I first got the… .::. Size~: 87.46 KB | Apr 07 19:46 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - I hate Netgear, Belkin and Cisco. Over the last two days, I… .::. Size~: 88.64 KB | Apr 07 19:46 |
| schestowitz | The software available at the desktop level is fantastic but the Microsoft supply chain is worse than ever. I finally solved my problem by trying out a collection of older cards at a local computer store. I'm suspicious of contributions from companies that have been obnoxious and favored Microsoft so obviously for so long. If they mean what they say it's a great thing. | Apr 07 19:46 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Will Hill - Google+ - Last week, I was irritated about not being able to find a… .::. Size~: 87.55 KB | Apr 07 19:46 |
| XFaCE | schestowitz: What is the position of Techrights on article republishing on other websites? | Apr 07 20:03 |
| schestowitz | I don't mind it | Apr 07 20:04 |
| schestowitz | share, attribute preferably | Apr 07 20:04 |
| XFaCE | Ok, | Apr 07 20:04 |
| XFaCE | I am republishing the Bill c11 article on the PPCA website | Apr 07 20:05 |
| schestowitz | cool | Apr 07 20:06 |
| XFaCE | excellent | Apr 07 20:30 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | @Mbugua, just a simple question: Iran got shitloads of oil, why would they want to have nuclear power plants, especially considering what has just happened in Fukushima? Why wouldn't they simply give on the program, thus getting rid of the sanctions and finally releasing the suffering from the poor Iranian people (I really mean it, I feel deeply sorry for the "real" Iran)? | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Please give me a serious source that the US has ever "threatened to Iran with nuclear annihilation" (which could already be considered an actual declaration of war). I can't find it - if you don't manage to deliver one, I refuse to continue with you on that topic. | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | While still being afraid that it's a waste of time, I will give you a small list of what I consider more meaningful numbers: | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Human rights of women and girls risk index: Iran 0.1 (best 9.0), USA 7.0 http://www.girlsdiscovered.org/map/maplecroft_maps_and_indices/wo-7/# | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Democracy Index: Iran 1.98 (best 10.0) (making it 159/167) USA 8.11 (19/167) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index | Apr 07 21:16 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Girls Discovered | Global maps of adolescent girls .::. Size~: 25.35 KB | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | Declared to wipe other countries off the map: Iran 1 USA 0 http://www.president.ir/en/23590/ | Apr 07 21:16 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Democracy Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 172.48 KB | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1493698# | Apr 07 21:16 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Islamic Republic of Iran's Presidency Website - President: Zionist regime symbol of racism .::. Size~: 47.51 KB | Apr 07 21:16 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a Diaspora post? | Apr 07 21:16 |
| schestowitz | https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1493698# | Apr 07 21:49 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a Diaspora post? | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | @Alexander. Iran has oil but it is entirely their business whether they want nuclear power or not. Its none of the US's business. They might want it for the lulz. You don't get to decide that for them. | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | On US threats, Hilary Clinton in the 2008 campaign threatened Iran with annihilation. The US consistently uses the formula of "all options are on the table" meaning nuclear war options included. That is a threat of annihilation. You should also add somalia to that list. Clinton threatened it with destruction in the 90's when they kidnapped a US solider in the Black Hawk down incident. Also Pakistan which was threatened by | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Bush after 911 if it did not give over flight to the US military in the attack on Afghanistan. | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Furthermore Ahmadinejad never said Israel should be wiped off the face of the map. That was a mistranslation. See this: | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | "Then, specialists such as Juan Cole of the University of Michigan and Arash Norouzi of the Mossadegh Project pointed out that the original statement in Persian did not say that Israel should be wiped from the map, but instead that it would collapse." | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | From the Wshington Post | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Nobody is claiming Iran is not a dictatorship. So thank you for your list. How about you extent it with the following since they were in your email above: | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | Fill in the blanks for: USA: Iran: | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | 1. Total Military expenditure (including nuclear and science spending.) : - | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | 2. Number of terrorist groups supported: - | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | 3. Number of dictatorships supported: - | Apr 07 21:49 |
| schestowitz | 4. Number of legitimate governments undermined or overthrown: - | Apr 07 21:50 |
| schestowitz | One could go on, but since these are the ones you were talking about. You should answer them. | Apr 07 21:50 |
| schestowitz | You are the one who said the graphic was false. You still have not addressed in what way it is false or misleading. SO the US wins a point or two on the question of internal dictatorship. But that is neither my business or your business, its the Iranians business. The US loses every other point! | Apr 07 21:50 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 21:50 |
| qu1j0t3 | well, let's talk about what we KNOW more about. USA. Which is controlled by a dangerous, unaccountable clique and is a military threat to ever other nation except Israel. | Apr 07 21:57 |
| schestowitz | "https://joindiaspora.com/posts/1493698" | Apr 07 22:02 |
| TechrightsSocial | Not a Diaspora post? | Apr 07 22:02 |
| schestowitz | "@Alexander. I don't accept the links you gave for gender and for democracy . Its one thing to quote wikipedia and some ngo, but who says they are credible. I'll give you my own sources. [Last year's UN Human Development Index rankings](http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics). Iran is ranked 88th out of 187 countries. This is the "High Human Development" category. Click on the country name and you can look at specific data. It in | Apr 07 22:02 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: 404 | Human Development Reports (HDR) | United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) .::. Size~: 17.4 KB | Apr 07 22:02 |
| schestowitz | no way resembles what you cited. In fact Iran's HDI has increased dramatically since 1980. For a country that fought a disastrous US sponsored war with Iraq for 8 year... " | Apr 07 22:02 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Videos for my last comment above. (Hope you can at least watch them in the spirit of walking in someone elses shoes!): 1. Role and Status of Iranian women: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UU5gtqdJOvhGdh-6WRO2CTpw&v=y6Y-fO7V5dY | Apr 07 22:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Role and status of women in the Iranian society-Iran Today-03-09-2012 - YouTube .::. Size~: 121.98 KB | Apr 07 22:35 |
| schestowitz | 1. | Apr 07 22:35 |
| schestowitz | Iranian REvolution http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UU5gtqdJOvhGdh-6WRO2CTpw&feature=player_detailpage&v=37dP9rqKv6s | Apr 07 22:35 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: 33rd anniversary of Iran Islamic Revolution-Iran Today-02-10-2012 - YouTube .::. Size~: 120.21 KB | Apr 07 22:36 |
| schestowitz | 2. | Apr 07 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Education System Reform in Iran http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=UU5gtqdJOvhGdh-6WRO2CTpw&v=wQGlXC5cg1M | Apr 07 22:36 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Education system reform in Iran-Iran Today-03-06-2012 - YouTube .::. Size~: 116.04 KB | Apr 07 22:36 |
| schestowitz | 3. | Apr 07 22:36 |
| schestowitz | Review of 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WiLmpPbhhOI | Apr 07 22:36 |
| schestowitz | " | Apr 07 22:36 |
| TechrightsSocial | Title: Main Econ-political Events in the Last Year: A Review - Iran Today -03-23-2012 - YouTube .::. Size~: 103.29 KB | Apr 07 22:36 |
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