Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 12th, 2008



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schestowitzGroklaw's response to Nokia: "ere's my answer. No thanks. Do what you like, but if you wish to use the code, you obey the license. If not, please write your own. Personally, I won't use DRM'd products. I can wait. I understand Hollywood is a problem for you, but until they wake up and realize they are destroying their old business model by scrupulously avoiding any new ones, instead trying to graft the old one onto a new age, I'll just avoidJun 12 04:22
schestowitz their offerings. I can live without Hollywood, I find, when it's something this vital. I understand that puts Nokia in a tough spot, because they want to do deals with Hollywood. Go ahead and do deals, but leave me out. And please don't use FOSS code until you are ready to play by the rules. I just won't buy or use any Nokia phones if you break the rules. I think that's fair"Jun 12 04:22
schestowitzhttp://www.groklaw.net/newsitems.phpJun 12 04:22
schestowitzHere is a new aticle that calls RMS "_Open source_ guru": http://www.techradar.com/new...Jun 12 06:21
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moparxhey allJun 12 13:12
schestowitzHey <moparx>Jun 12 13:16
moparxwell the down vote campaign started. all the recent submissions by "komrad" have been driven into the negativesJun 12 13:20
schestowitzWho is doing this? And why?Jun 12 13:23
moparxone of the folks doing the downvoting has only been a member of FSDaily for an hourJun 12 13:25
schestowitzDo you reckon that they AstroTurf? Do you happen to know who komrad is?Jun 12 13:26
moparxit also seems the people who are downvoting rarely use the site anyway (small amount of votes considering how long they have been members, etc)Jun 12 13:27
moparxno idea who komrad isJun 12 13:27
schestowitz*sigh* What triggered this, I wonder... I didn't write anything rude, I don't think so. My criticism of Novell was well backed by external sources too.Jun 12 13:28
schestowitzI wad one of the items this morning (I don't typically read such stuff because it's time-consuming and distracting). They make false accusations, mix it w/ a bit of libel and then criticise (baselessly) the research methods. But hey... if could be worse. They could come to my house and then write some fables about a car with religious pamphlets and claim that I'm 65.Jun 12 13:30
moparxthis all seems to have started from the initally boycott "boycott novell" blog posts such as the guy bitching about your "potshots" against his employer (sourceforge) and the other claimed you were callintg mark s a sellout... all the anti-bn posts seem to have happpened with in a few days timeJun 12 13:34
schestowitzMark Fink came to the Ubuntu list with our post and appeared hostile. I clarified this in FSDaily.Jun 12 13:35
moparxbah my spelling sucks this morningJun 12 13:35
schestowitzBy the way, Mark Shuttleworth responded moments ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008... Maybe I should post a clarifications? I don't want to feed those foul-mouth critics though.Jun 12 13:36
schestowitz*foul-mouthedJun 12 13:36
moparxthat is entirely up to you :)Jun 12 13:37
PetoKraus91 commentsJun 12 13:37
PetoKrausd'ohJun 12 13:37
schestowitzI think I'll skip it. PJ would do the same. She would never mention the likes of MOG. It's also a time waster.Jun 12 13:38
moparx*nod*Jun 12 13:38
schestowitzmark is very polite and clever. Sadly, people got the impression that I was confronting him in a hostile fashion because of the context in which it was brought up (in Ubuntu mailing lists)Jun 12 13:39
schestowitzNoteworthy: Perens says "Red Hat further discusses the settlement  on their web site. Red Hat still faces a suit by IP Innovation LLC, a "patent troll" company staffed with ex-Microsoft executives." ( http://technocrat.net/d/... )Jun 12 13:39
schestowitzI was going to write a clarification, but changed my mind. It's like defending myself against what? What really? We really ought to not get distracted by the people as in {people, events, ideas}. I get attacked by anonymous Munchkins in places, but there's no point in rebutting because it goes on endlessly and takes you off the right topic. If the attacks some from {anonymous cowards}^TM, then it's truly pointless.Jun 12 13:49
moparxYa it is probably best to let it be as to not fuel the fire anyJun 12 13:50
schestowitzI'v  just realised that Robert McMillan keeps bringing more and more positive reports about Free software. If only there was more reporters like him... (IDG)Jun 12 13:54
schestowitzWow, this is very cool. Sabayon is now issuing intl' press releases: http://www.prweb.com/relea... That guy is only like 20 and he's hacking on Linux with great success.Jun 12 13:57
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schestowitzJust found this one: http://www.pcworld.com/business... I supports my assertion that Microsoft's profit is likely to decline (year-to-year) in the next report, just like in the last quarter. This is significant. MSFT is around 52-week low.Jun 12 14:06
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schestowitzOBS: Gartner does what IDC tried a year ago ago (and failed): iPhone FUD http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146998/ga... ("Gartner Advises Caution on New IPhone's Place in Companies"). Both IDC and Gartner do a lot of business with Microsoft, which is also a major investor. They are marketers in suits.Jun 12 14:15
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schestowitzhi, max_stirner.Jun 12 14:38
max_stirnerhello roy :)Jun 12 14:38
moparxwelcome to #boycottnovellJun 12 14:38
schestowitzI never likes the name of the site (Boycott Novell). I blame Shane. :-)Jun 12 14:39
max_stirneri'm sure you're aware there's a war on of sorts in the fsdaily blogosphere?Jun 12 14:39
schestowitzYes, thanks for the headsup. I speak to PJ about it at the moment.Jun 12 14:39
max_stirnerboycott novell seems highly specific, but it's a just war :DJun 12 14:39
moparxwe've been discussing itJun 12 14:39
moparxit is sort of sillyJun 12 14:40
max_stirnersome novell employee even came along posting the ms-novell faq @ opensuseJun 12 14:40
max_stirnerhttp://en.opensuse.org/FAQ:MS-NovellJun 12 14:40
max_stirner:DJun 12 14:40
schestowitzThe FAQ is old.Jun 12 14:40
max_stirnersure..Jun 12 14:40
schestowitzI think we debunked it a long, long time ago.Jun 12 14:40
max_stirnerare you going to engage on the blogfront? might get a nice flamewar goingJun 12 14:41
schestowitzIt's like a thick coat of paint on an elephant in the room.Jun 12 14:41
schestowitzNo, I prefer not to. That's why I inquired: "If a bunch of anonymous blogs launch an libelous attack on my credibility and ask people to ignore me, should I ignore or rebut? I reckon I should ignore. "Jun 12 14:42
max_stirnerthat's the question isn't itJun 12 14:42
schestowitzhttp://scobleizer.com/2006/03/0...Jun 12 14:43
max_stirnerany publicty is good publicityJun 12 14:43
max_stirnerit's actually a measure of your success reallyJun 12 14:44
schestowitzIn retrospect this one is funny: "The second thing of Roy’s I’d like to reply to is his link to an article that says that there’s a back door in Vista." Wel, well, well.... who was right and who was wrong? There *IS* a back door for the police. it was in the news.Jun 12 14:44
max_stirnerline jumped out at me, that exactly what i was laughing about just nowJun 12 14:45
max_stirnerwasn't that made official the other day?Jun 12 14:45
schestowitzA month ago roughly.Jun 12 14:45
max_stirner:DJun 12 14:45
max_stirneri don't think you're strident or whatever they're saying in those blogs, but i do have a major confidence that the war is won ;)Jun 12 14:46
schestowitzThat's when the press jumped on it anyway. Another thing is the zombie epidemic. I argued some years about the the proportion was high (Microsoft and other said "isolated"). Recently in USA Today: 40% of the PCs are zombies. Geer lost his job for 'daring' to say this.Jun 12 14:46
schestowitzWhich one?Jun 12 14:46
max_stirnerthe future / FOSS versus the monopolist(s)Jun 12 14:47
schestowitzYes, I know. But it's like a case of someone breaking into one's house. They want to have us bruised and subverted once entered.Jun 12 14:47
max_stirnerI certainly concur on the zombie front, on top of that you got all the keyloggers. I'm always entertained seeing peoples' winpcs and them doing their banking on there and everythingJun 12 14:48
schestowitzAs in... Free software will be hybrid open source that works 'better' on Windows and uses the Microsoft APIs. That kind of stuff. Oh! And swpatents, of course, because Microsoft needs to milk /some/ cash cow.Jun 12 14:48
max_stirnerThere's a certain historical force about it, not in the Marxist sense, rather technological/economical imperativeJun 12 14:48
schestowitzWell, Free software was the 'default'. It's not NEW.Jun 12 14:49
schestowitzPeople are taught to believe that .EXE is 'healthy' and source code is 'ugly' and 'black hat hacker' and 'cheap'.Jun 12 14:49
PetoKraus:DJun 12 14:50
max_stirnerI actually went to linux for the stability and quality ;) A computer geek installed it on my PC back in the dayJun 12 14:50
schestowitzPerfect Microsoft/Oracle FUD: people chooses FOSS so that they can tinker and save buncks.Jun 12 14:51
schestowitz*bucksJun 12 14:51
max_stirnerbut that's exactly what's happening as we speak. Copyleft principles are obviously of vast importance in making it futureproof.Jun 12 14:52
moparxit is sad that people do not realize that free software was where everything started in the old days. no one even thought about closing their source back thenJun 12 14:53
schestowitzEarlier today Simon Phipps links to http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ne... http://tinyurl.com/6ylvpx Microsoft too is betting on copyrights for future-proofing.Jun 12 14:53
max_stirnerI can imagine, but that didnt work for big pharma eitherJun 12 14:54
schestowitz<moparx> : back in the days you could also 'assumed' women were dumb, black people were 'slaves', and apartheid was the only way to go. It's all brainwash.Jun 12 14:54
schestowitzThe sad thing is, if you look at Microsoft\'s SEC filing you'll find that it's encouraging brainwash (young children _copyrights) as a strategy. They try to raise a generation of Windows-addicted adolescents who just *love* patents.Jun 12 14:56
max_stirnerTime for lunch, keep up the good fight dude. Just wanted to find out whether you're going to formulate a response. But looking over the articles again I guess there's lots of ranting and little content worthy of a rebuke..Jun 12 14:59
moparxbring us back some snacks :)Jun 12 14:59
schestowitzBy the way, I think my lines above could be misinterpreted or taken out of contextJun 12 14:59
moparxindeedJun 12 14:59
schestowitzI meant to say (just for clarify, typos aside) that some time ago people were raised to adopt stereotypes.Jun 12 15:00
schestowitzIn certain nations people are still raised to disrespect or even hate women. Xenophobia is still common everywhere and labelling of Linux users (e.g. zealots) helps this similarly.Jun 12 15:00
max_stirnerJust spotted you're on facebook? :D Jamais!Jun 12 15:02
schestowitzJust got an E-mail. It's better not to respond to the attacks.Jun 12 15:02
schestowitzMe or <moparx? Facebbook is possible Microsoft-bound (though Microsoft announced a  similar service yesterday). I only 'joined' because I was invited (feet-dragging).Jun 12 15:03
schestowitz*possiblyJun 12 15:03
moparxI don't use it so it isn't meJun 12 15:03
max_stirnerI dont mind really, I use it like the older UK friends reunitedJun 12 15:03
schestowitzIt's a friends 'catalogue'. That's how a friend of mine from the gym puts it.Jun 12 15:03
max_stirnerNot on there with my real name obviously ;)Jun 12 15:04
schestowitzIt's not even as though you own and control you *own* data. No export.Jun 12 15:04
max_stirnerAnnoying I know. Technology is NOT neutral (destruction of biosphere comes to mind..). But I'm on there to communicate with less technophile friends as well, same as for MSN (believe or not!)Jun 12 15:05
schestowitzI try to drag them back  to E-mail. :-) AT least I can then have copies and portability.Jun 12 15:07
max_stirnerI've got an orkut as well, hugely popular in Brazil. It's "try not to be too evil" google, but it allows exporting of friends with e-mailJun 12 15:08
schestowitzOBS: all hail open-source King Microsoft (Thailand)... Factory for open-source programming ( http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/1... ). More assimilation/hijacking.Jun 12 15:08
schestowitzThere's this ongoing debate about the future of GNOME: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1196 (part of a bunch of posts)Jun 12 15:16
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alan___mono is the shitzersJun 12 16:50
alan___wtfJun 12 16:50
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PetoKraussome routers are PAIN to configureJun 12 18:34
schestowitzAre you messing with one? Which distro/firmware?Jun 12 18:45
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schestowitzI've replied in http://www.fsdaily.com/Commu... and http://www.fsdaily.com/Communit... . In short, it appears likely that the OpenSUSE members have all ganged up to game Free Software Daily and do their smears.Jun 12 19:00
tessier_schestowitz: I would ignore those people and not get drawn in.Jun 12 19:18
schestowitzI couldn't resist. Some of them used to comment in BoycottNovell, but they change habitats. Some of them work for Novell (maybe) or participate in the board (for a fact). They must have spread E-mails to help game the system (you can see the bursts of modding up/down). It's like a gang of hyenas. :-)Jun 12 19:21
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moparxschestowitz: that zerogravity guy on FSDaily is one of the new accountsJun 12 19:34
moparxeven more new accounts are showing up nowJun 12 19:37
schestowitzI haven't checked, so thanks for pointing that out. The whole thing is funny because you see the score oscillating from... say 17 down to 12, then up to 19... they surely pass some messages around. Some of the comments are contentless "yes men"Jun 12 19:37
moparxits also on the ubuntu forumJun 12 19:38
schestowitzGot URL?Jun 12 19:38
moparx1 secJun 12 19:38
moparxhttp://ubuntuforums.org/sh...Jun 12 19:38
schestowitzThanks.Jun 12 19:39
moparxI couldn't help but notice some openSUSE articles have shown up on FSDaily's queue and are being upvoted by many the same peopleJun 12 19:57
schestowitzThe site admins ought to be informed, I think. In fact, I'll update a post I published seconds ago.Jun 12 19:58
benJImanschestowitz: Invisible citation [http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/12/ha...Jun 12 19:58
schestowitzOops. Thanks.Jun 12 19:59
moparxyour first link is messed upJun 12 20:00
moparx"engage in a  title=”Sockpuppet (Internet)”>sockpuppet"Jun 12 20:00
schestowitzYup. Fixed now. :-) Thanks.Jun 12 20:01
benJImanschestowitz: Still no citation.Jun 12 20:02
schestowitzOh, to the smears? PJ thought that the worse one can do it link to the libelJun 12 20:03
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benJImanschestowitz: No, what you're doing is the libel, making accusations without even providing a citation.Jun 12 20:03
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yalokischestowitz: could you elaborate a bit on http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0... ?Jun 12 20:04
yalokischestowitz: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking aboutJun 12 20:04
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yalokizoobab: oh look who's thereJun 12 20:05
schestowitzAh, I see.Jun 12 20:06
yalokizoobab: salut benjaminJun 12 20:06
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PetoKrausumm warwick :)Jun 12 20:07
yalokischestowitz: you mean the fact that articles/blog posts about openSUSE are being digged ?Jun 12 20:08
yaloki"huh" :)Jun 12 20:08
benjaminWell that's not a smear campaign.Jun 12 20:08
yalokino, not in any way, which is why I'm asking :)Jun 12 20:09
schestowitzOkay, maybe a big word(s), but what should it be called?Jun 12 20:09
yalokischestowitz: um, digg, like everyone else?Jun 12 20:09
benjaminWhat should what be called?Jun 12 20:09
schestowitzI've added a link...Jun 12 20:09
schestowitz<yaloki>, what do you mean?Jun 12 20:09
benjaminschestowitz: How is people digging an openSUSE story a smear campaign against boycottnovell?Jun 12 20:09
yalokischestowitz: that link is about microsoft, what exactly are you accusing the opensuse community of ? I still fail to seeJun 12 20:10
schestowitzNo, see the FSDaily stuff. There's more than that. I just don't want to link to ot.Jun 12 20:10
schestowitz*itJun 12 20:10
benjaminYou mean he linked to the FAQ?Jun 12 20:11
benjaminhttp://opensuse.org/FAQ:MS-Novell ?Jun 12 20:11
benjaminThat has been there for monthsJun 12 20:11
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benjaminFurthermore, it does not even mention boycottnovell.Jun 12 20:11
taconehttp://feeds.zawodny.com/~r/jzawo...Jun 12 20:11
PetoKrauswell, evidence would be good.Jun 12 20:11
schestowitzNo, the story that's there plus some other things like artificial boosting and accusations that I have something to do with Konrad (among others)Jun 12 20:11
benjaminWhich story?Jun 12 20:12
schestowitzYes, I know..Jun 12 20:12
PetoKrausyou *could* specify it a bit moreJun 12 20:12
benjaminHe didn't post the story, he only linked to the faq.Jun 12 20:12
schestowitzTwo or three recent blog posts, I suppose, but I suspect we haven't more proof other that the presence of Francis and others whose usernames I recoignise (SUSE people).Jun 12 20:13
PetoKrausit's like "you guys know what you're doing, and i just wanna say, that I know it as well, and dont like it, but i won't talk about it."Jun 12 20:13
schestowitzHeh.Jun 12 20:13
benjaminIt's not much of a smear campaign if no-one can find the smear.Jun 12 20:13
PetoKrauswhich leaves lot of people like "what the hell is going on?"Jun 12 20:13
benjaminNot even those supposedly behind it.Jun 12 20:13
schestowitzHmmm....Jun 12 20:14
PetoKrausyou know, sockpuppetry is a bad, yet common thing.Jun 12 20:14
schestowitzI'll modify to headline to indicate uncertainty.Jun 12 20:14
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PetoKrausi don't think that post fits BN.Jun 12 20:14
PetoKrausBN is usually full of references... this is... not.Jun 12 20:14
PetoKrausok, back to my FLYT'sJun 12 20:15
yalokiummmJun 12 20:16
yalokischestowitz: you /might/ want to see it this way, just consider it, for a moment, as one possibility of what is "happening":Jun 12 20:17
yalokischestowitz: it isn't a smear campaign, it isn't something organizedJun 12 20:17
yalokischestowitz: you're having it all wrong, you're just spreading FUD without proof, random accusations, paranoiac theories of black suits and helicoptersJun 12 20:17
schestowitzWell, I'm not sure. Not by Novell, mind you, but the OpenSUSE chums probably spread some E-mails around.Jun 12 20:17
yalokischestowitz: and well, people have noticedJun 12 20:18
benjaminO_oJun 12 20:18
yalokischestowitz: how is that ? is it so remote compared to your black suit theory of a coordinated "attack" ?Jun 12 20:18
*yaloki hands schestowitz occam's razorJun 12 20:18
schestowitzHuh?Jun 12 20:18
benjaminWhy would openSUSE people launch a smear campaign against such an entertaining site.Jun 12 20:19
schestowitzHold on a second!Jun 12 20:19
schestowitzyaloki (n=loki@opensuse/member/pbleser)Jun 12 20:19
yalokischestowitz: we would rather aggregate your blog on planetsuse btwJun 12 20:19
yalokischestowitz: it's pretty entertainingJun 12 20:19
benjaminIt has been suggested a few times.Jun 12 20:19
yalokischestowitz: yes, I'm an opensuse board memberJun 12 20:19
yaloki*shocking* ?Jun 12 20:19
schestowitzSo, what we have here is yet another OpenSUSE member coming to do some work in the IRC channel, eh?Jun 12 20:19
yalokihehJun 12 20:19
PetoKraus:)Jun 12 20:19
yalokiso you don't actually read what I wroteJun 12 20:19
PetoKrausyou didn't write anythingJun 12 20:20
PetoKrausanything containing more information than roy's postJun 12 20:20
PetoKrausi must admit.Jun 12 20:20
schestowitzYou didn't write it, unless I missed it.Jun 12 20:20
yalokiI did, here, aboveJun 12 20:20
schestowitzAnd you're not the first opensuse person to have entered this channel. I can think of several others.Jun 12 20:20
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benjaminroflJun 12 20:20
schestowitzWhat I find flaterring is that you entered this place just a minute after I had posted that.Jun 12 20:20
schestowitzHere come Beineri of Novell?Jun 12 20:21
yalokischestowitz: look, let me put it this way: I don't care what you're doing or writing, really, honestJun 12 20:21
schestowitzYaST developer, IIRC?Jun 12 20:21
BeineriSchestowitz, master of wrong information I guess?Jun 12 20:21
yalokischestowitz: I've done a whole lot for FOSS, I don't need to prove my integrityJun 12 20:21
schestowitzDid you or did you not mess about with those sites that are mentioned?Jun 12 20:21
yalokischestowitz: totally notJun 12 20:22
schestowitzFine, but your motives are clear.Jun 12 20:22
yalokischestowitz: there is no "coordinated attack" or whatever you're talking aboutJun 12 20:22
schestowitzWell, you guys sure were aware of it? How come? :-)Jun 12 20:22
yalokischestowitz: but even that, I don't care, if you think that's the reason people are criticizing BN on fsdaily, well whatever makes your reality nicerJun 12 20:22
yalokischestowitz: because we read BN :)Jun 12 20:23
yalokischestowitz: it's fun :)Jun 12 20:23
PetoKrausyes it is.Jun 12 20:23
PetoKrausit depends on PoV.Jun 12 20:23
PetoKrausi am not a conspiration theorist, but i find it mildly amusing thatJun 12 20:23
yalokischestowitz: still, maybe you'd want to read what I told you aboveJun 12 20:23
yalokiand if not, not, I don't really bother actuallyJun 12 20:24
yalokijust that, as I wrote above, I didn't understand what you were talking aboutJun 12 20:24
PetoKrauswell, there is only a statement, that you personally did not do anything on digg etc, and, that you are doing something organized, but it's not a smear campaignJun 12 20:24
PetoKraus*are not doingJun 12 20:24
yalokinow I read that thread on fsdaily, and your lines here on IRC, and now I seeJun 12 20:25
yalokiPetoKraus: talking to me ?Jun 12 20:25
PetoKrauson the other hand, considering 4 people related to novell/suse/opensuseJun 12 20:25
PetoKrausjoined the channel in last 5 minutesJun 12 20:25
yalokiwell yesJun 12 20:25
PetoKrausit's not really organized. Like, at all.Jun 12 20:25
yalokiumm.. well, noJun 12 20:25
yalokiwe talked about it on #opensuse-chatJun 12 20:25
PetoKrausyaloki: no, i am having my schizophrenic moment, talking to myself. As usual. nothing to see here, carry on.Jun 12 20:25
PetoKraus:)Jun 12 20:26
schestowitzOk, look what's in my inbox? Notification of 4 messages posted in just 5 minutes... from OpenSUSE people... even board memberJun 12 20:26
schestowitzwait, I want to see what they write.Jun 12 20:26
benjaminIt's almost as if there were some sort of syndication feed whereby people could be notified of new stories.Jun 12 20:26
yalokischestowitz: so, what is so strange about "opensuse people" (I only know one person as being with opensuse on the fsdaily discussion) reading fsdaily and responding ?Jun 12 20:27
schestowitzEven those anonymous blogges suddenly seem to show identity/affiliation. I'd need to look.Jun 12 20:27
PetoKraus^^ that's really unlikely, benjaminJun 12 20:27
schestowitzWait...Jun 12 20:27
schestowitzOk, lookie here. New comment on OpenSUSE just moments after posting... look from /who/: http://seanrtilley.blogspot.com/200...Jun 12 20:28
schestowitzOpenSUSE... an attack on us... again. What a 'coincidence' this must be.Jun 12 20:29
benjaminO_oJun 12 20:29
yalokihehehJun 12 20:30
yalokischestowitz: oh man, you're even funnier live than on BNJun 12 20:30
yalokiwhat an imagination :)Jun 12 20:31
schestowitzI've got links I want to post. You can carry on with your childish thing.Jun 12 20:32
Beineriit's true, history repeats: the users of digg couldn't stand schestowitz' spamming anymore, now the users of fsdaily speak up against being spammed with schestowitz contentJun 12 20:33
yalokiBeineri: no no, it's us doing a coordinated attackJun 12 20:33
PetoKrausand then, you completely without coordination joined a channel, where you never ever beenJun 12 20:34
PetoKrausthat _makes_ sense.Jun 12 20:34
PetoKraus*you'dJun 12 20:34
yalokiPetoKraus: well again, as I wrote above, we happened to talk about it on an opensuse IRC channel and came to ask about detailsJun 12 20:34
yalokiPetoKraus: what's so weird or black-suiteish about that ?Jun 12 20:34
tessier_How is Roy spamming digg?Jun 12 20:35
tessier_Don't people have to vote up the articles etc?Jun 12 20:35
BeineriPetoKraus: just curious about the latest smear campaing of Boy against openSUSE...Jun 12 20:35
schestowitzI don't spam digg.Jun 12 20:35
schestowitzThe COLA trolls are there. 4 of them.Jun 12 20:35
Beinerischestowitz: you don't anymore, you did though.Jun 12 20:35
PetoKrausyaloki: i don't see your dress :) and it's pretty normal.Jun 12 20:35
tessier_I would just refuse to talk to them.Jun 12 20:35
schestowitzflatfish, Tim (hardlowmonkeys) and others who stalk me there and have done this by their own admission for about a yearJun 12 20:35
tessier_And if they join the channel kick themJun 12 20:35
PetoKraustessier_: that's NOT how you should deal with problemsJun 12 20:36
tessier_Never dignify their complaints with a response. It's hard but it only feeds them.Jun 12 20:36
tessier_PetoKraus: That is how you deal with problems on the Internet.Jun 12 20:36
yalokioh, wowJun 12 20:36
tessier_Otherwise they become bigger problems.Jun 12 20:36
PetoKraus:) nahJun 12 20:36
PetoKrausif there's someone WRONG on the internetJun 12 20:36
PetoKraus...Jun 12 20:36
*benjamin has almost finished this popcorn.Jun 12 20:36
schestowitzAnyway, I've got some good Linux links to post in BN.com. This argument with Ballnux devs is pointless.Jun 12 20:37
Beinerischestowitz: or do you want to dispute that you posted under every openSUSE/Novell related stories at least one "boycott novell" comment?Jun 12 20:37
yalokibenjamin: myeah, me too, time to get back to some real work I guessJun 12 20:37
*yaloki gives Steve a call for this weekend's bbqJun 12 20:38
tessier_Beware the Streisand Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Jun 12 20:38
tessier_Debating something on the net is not the way to shut anyone up.Jun 12 20:38
PetoKraussure. that's why you have... umm... MiB'sJun 12 20:39
yalokimm.. myeah, providing evidence, proof, content, that would be quite a change, jeezJun 12 20:39
yalokiok, whatever, real stuff to do, have a lot of funJun 12 20:39
PetoKrausyou forgot the "!"Jun 12 20:40
yalokiI'm always available to discuss or debate with you guys, if it's in a friendly relaxed mannerJun 12 20:40
tessier_Unfortunately I have to admit that Roy rarely links to anything useful on BN. Just lots of links to his own articles.Jun 12 20:40
yalokiPetoKraus: darn, trueJun 12 20:40
tessier_Groklaw does it much better with lots of external links to other sources and court documentsJun 12 20:40
*yaloki (n=loki@opensuse/member/pbleser) has left #boycottnovellJun 12 20:41
schestowitz<tessier_>, those items contain external links. They highlight particular parts of stories.Jun 12 20:41
schestowitzFor example, I may link to a previous post showing how Alex Brown relates to the British Library. That post will have external references showing this, as well as prior examples.Jun 12 20:42
tessier_schestowitz: If I were you I would also exercise fascist censorship the comments on your blog. Delete any you don't agree with. It's your blog. Nobody has a right to free speech there.Jun 12 20:43
tessier_Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.Jun 12 20:43
PetoKrausthat would give you bad press thoughJun 12 20:44
PetoKrausmight *Jun 12 20:44
schestowitzYes, I know.Jun 12 20:44
PetoKrausI hate when THEY do it.Jun 12 20:44
schestowitzPJ advocated deleting, but we only ever flag (one person ONLY)Jun 12 20:44
PetoKrausi like the "we" :)Jun 12 20:45
schestowitzJeff Jones (Microsoft's security liar) deleted my polite comment because it said the truth he disliked.Jun 12 20:45
tessier_It won't give you bad press on your own blog since you can delete themJun 12 20:45
schestowitzWe as in me and ShaneJun 12 20:45
PetoKraustessier: it would on other.Jun 12 20:45
tessier_You can't stop them from doing it on their own blogs as it is their right.Jun 12 20:45
tessier_Just like it is your right to do the same on yours.Jun 12 20:45
PetoKrausschestowitz: i didn't see a post from shane for quite a long...Jun 12 20:45
schestowitzThen again, when a blog gets "censor" reputation, that in its own right is bad reputation.Jun 12 20:45
tessier_You do a disservice to your readers by letting info you know is false to be shown on your blog in the commentsJun 12 20:45
tessier_Censor reputation or no will not stop them from coming and reading your blogJun 12 20:46
schestowitzI don't think it became so bad that we're flooded by disinfo.Jun 12 20:46
tessier_Fucker T. Washington said,Jun 12 20:47
tessier_June 12, 2008 at 2:26 pmJun 12 20:47
tessier_Dear fucking idiotJun 12 20:47
tessier_I'd definitely delete that one if it were my blog. :)Jun 12 20:47
Beinerithe whole front-page is flooded by disinfos, why add more in the comments? ;-)Jun 12 20:47
PetoKrausBeineri: come onJun 12 20:47
schestowitzYes, but I'm too bust at the moment. I try to get something finished.Jun 12 20:47
schestowitz*busyJun 12 20:47
tessier_In fact I would probably just not allow comments.Jun 12 20:47
tessier_That way they can't accuse you of censorshipJun 12 20:48
tessier_Anything people really want to add can be emailed.Jun 12 20:48
BeineriPetoKraus: read 2nd comment, http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/1...Jun 12 20:48
tessier_But that's just me. :)Jun 12 20:48
PetoKrausBeineri: you should be fair, at least. There's link post on the FPJun 12 20:48
PetoKrausBeineri: well, sorry. I don't like Suse and Opensuse and anything RPM based either.Jun 12 20:49
BeineriPetoKraus: how does that make out of context quoting, adding of own misinterpreation + FUD etc. better?Jun 12 20:49
PetoKrausBeineri: how is the quote out of context?Jun 12 20:50
tessier_Beineri: Please put it in context for us.Jun 12 20:51
tessier_That is what you do when someone else quotes out of context.Jun 12 20:52
BeineriPetoKraus: what has it to do with openSUSE 11.0 release with what the story starts?Jun 12 20:52
PetoKrausthe whole post is about SUSEJun 12 20:52
*Beineri heard the other day that you're planning some campaign against suspected success of openSUSE 11.0 in this channel here. Today it started?Jun 12 20:52
PetoKrausthere are two sentences regarding opensuseJun 12 20:52
tessier_suspected success?Jun 12 20:52
BeineriPetoKraus: I don't see "openSUSE" mentioned in the Washing Post story at allJun 12 20:52
PetoKrausthat's trueJun 12 20:52
PetoKrausbutJun 12 20:53
PetoKraus"Here is what the Washington Post has just had to say about Novell?s SUSE"Jun 12 20:53
PetoKrausthat's not mentioning OpenSUSE at all...Jun 12 20:53
tessier_I'm not sure how we can support OpenSUSE but not SUSE.Jun 12 20:53
PetoKraussorry guys. OpenSUSE has to have some connection to SUSE...Jun 12 20:53
Beineritessier_: Success I can believe in! ;-)... (no, I'm not a politican) Well, openSUSE seems to become more popular imo - see Distrowatch ranking etc.Jun 12 20:53
tessier_I don't know anyone who runs any variant of SUSEJun 12 20:54
tessier_Beineri: Do you run SUSE?Jun 12 20:54
Beineritessier_: sureJun 12 20:54
PetoKrauswell anecdotal evidence is not good evidenceJun 12 20:54
tessier_Beineri: Are you afraid of Roy driving people away from it and making SUSE extinct?Jun 12 20:54
Beineritessier_: noJun 12 20:54
tessier_Beineri: Are you getting paid to be here?Jun 12 20:55
Beineritessier_: But I'm convinced that he thinks he can extinct SUSE/Novell ;-)Jun 12 20:55
PetoKrauswellJun 12 20:55
Beineritessier_: noJun 12 20:55
tessier_Beineri: Do you work for SUSE/Novell?Jun 12 20:55
Beineritessier_: yesJun 12 20:55
tessier_ahJun 12 20:55
PetoKrausthat makes you a BIT biased sourceJun 12 20:55
tessier_And you think he actually has a chance of succeeding at making Novell extinct?Jun 12 20:56
Beineritessier_: you repeat yourself?Jun 12 20:57
tessier_Beineri: If you don't think he has a chance why do you care of schestowitz goes tilting at windmills on an impossible mission like some modern day Don Quixote?Jun 12 20:59
tessier_I doubt any of the cola trolls work for Novell. They aren't very bright. Not coders for sure. And Novell would never want anyone who might possibly be exposed as working for them using that kind of language.Jun 12 20:59
Beineriabout "suspected success", the talk here was "I wonder how to suppress its adoption on the day it’s released."Jun 12 21:01
tessier_As for me personally, with so many good distros of Linux out there I don't see any reason to mess with a potentially tained distro like SUSE.Jun 12 21:01
Beinerisorry, (quick) adoption sounds to me like suspected success :-)Jun 12 21:01
tessier_Beineri: You really think he has a chance of supressing the adoption of SUSE?Jun 12 21:01
PetoKrausthere'll be a log of this channel's talk on BN tomorrow, BeineriJun 12 21:02
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BeineriPetoKraus: I know, so?Jun 12 21:02
PetoKrausjust "for fun", you can read it, and judge what "anti-*SUSE" fud we spreadJun 12 21:02
BeineriPetoKraus: and I just quoted from some other day...Jun 12 21:02
PetoKrausto those hordes of users in doubt whether to pick Ubuntu or OpenSUSE or Mandriva or whateverJun 12 21:02
PetoKrausand, who did you quote?Jun 12 21:03
Beineritessier_: so you do think that one shouldn't "care" (I hope that doesn't imply starting a 'smear campaign') at all if someone spreads something wrong about you, your project or the company the whole time?Jun 12 21:04
tessier_Beineri: I think you are only bringing him more publicity. I wouldn't have known about this at all if I didn't look in here and see you going on about it.Jun 12 21:04
tessier_The same goes for you as what I told him: The more you engage your opponent in pointless debate on the net the more harm you do to yourself.Jun 12 21:05
BeineriPetoKraus: quote ->  "I wonder how to suppress its adoption on the day it’s released."Jun 12 21:05
PetoKrausWHO is that quote fromJun 12 21:05
PetoKrauswas my question.Jun 12 21:05
Beineritessier_: pardon? you want to say that you wouldn't have known about boycottnovell.com while being in #boycottnovell and me not being present? :-)Jun 12 21:06
tessier_I wouldn't have known about that particular washington post articleJun 12 21:06
BeineriPetoKraus: schestowitzJun 12 21:06
tessier_I don't read BN all the timeJun 12 21:06
BeineriPetoKraus: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/08/irc-...Jun 12 21:07
Beineritessier_: yeah, I don't think that (m)any people manage to read all posted stuff on it :-)Jun 12 21:08
PetoKrausBeineri: right. well, that looks like a smear campaign, i must amdit.Jun 12 21:08
BeineriPetoKraus: that I said something about quantity (versus quality)?Jun 12 21:09
PetoKrausBeineri: no, that part about "suppression"Jun 12 21:09
BeineriPetoKraus: ah, yeah. and schestowitz seems to doesn't know openSUSE at all when he suggest to be able to prove with screenshots that any other distro can be configured to look like openSUSE ;-)Jun 12 21:10
tessier_Beineri: Why couldn't any distro be configured to look like openSUSE?Jun 12 21:11
Beineritessier_: because they don't include the same software, packages and/or patches? think YaST, KDE3 Kickoff, GNOME start menu, ...Jun 12 21:11
tessier_But that's all free software right?Jun 12 21:12
Beineritessier_: correctJun 12 21:12
tessier_You can install any and all of that on a RedHat system.Jun 12 21:12
Beineritessier_: I don't think he meant he will put effort into packaging/porting of features to other distros.Jun 12 21:13
PetoKrausi think he meant, that the features ARE in other distrosJun 12 21:13
Beineriyeah, and is wrong - againJun 12 21:13
PetoKrauswell, I find all features i need in Gentoo, for example. It's about point of viewJun 12 21:14
Beinerisure, but other people may find openSUSE more fitting for them for individual reasons than other distros :-)Jun 12 21:16
PetoKrausthat's why i don't like that exact approachJun 12 21:16
PetoKrausto... persuade someone to NOT use OpenSUSE.Jun 12 21:16
PetoKrausmoreover, the novell situation as a whole is tricky, and I guess roy admits it as wellJun 12 21:17
PetoKrausfor example, RadeonHD driver is funded by Novell, which is a good thing.Jun 12 21:18
PetoKrausbut doing good doesn't justify doing stupid things (which are mentioned on BN and elsewhere).Jun 12 21:18
Beineriit's a stupid world, not a perfect one :-)Jun 12 21:19
PetoKrausbut idealism is the thing which moves the people forward.Jun 12 21:19
schestowitzThe RadeonHD guys are not too fond of Novelll.Jun 12 21:19
PetoKrausschestowitz: i don't see that deep in these things.Jun 12 21:20
Beinerischestowitz: I guess you must be more specific :-), there are different drivers/teams working on Radeon drivers.Jun 12 21:20
Beinerischestowitz: what I would refer to "RadeonHD guys" is the Novell team.Jun 12 21:21
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*moparx_ is now known as moparxJun 12 21:22
mib_m619s6schestowitz: Roy, how does it come that everytime ask you to be more specific instead of vague handwaving & pointing in the general direction (in front of you or behind you) it gets very quiet?Jun 12 21:24
Beinerimib_m619s6: good observationJun 12 21:25
*Beineri wondered the same after asking schestowitz if he would dispute having spammed DiggJun 12 21:26
mib_m619s6As someone else said: Quite often, the interpretation of the news that is reported is hyperbolic. Schestowitz then uses these interpretations as further evidence in later articles thus contributing to the amount of low quality evidence.Jun 12 21:26
tessier_I still don't see how he could have spammed diggJun 12 21:26
Beineritessier_: as written, posting prepared/identical comments under every suse/novell related storyJun 12 21:27
mib_m619s6in the same way as he accused the novell / suse people to do it. Create loads of fake accounts & pull an astroturfJun 12 21:27
tessier_oh, spamming the comments on diggJun 12 21:28
Beinerimib_m619s6: no, it was all from the "schestowitz" (or what's his account is called there) accountJun 12 21:28
tessier_I doubt he is creating fake accountsJun 12 21:28
tessier_He is too busy for that kind of thingJun 12 21:28
schestowitzI didn't spam Digg. That's just more of the libel.Jun 12 21:28
schestowitzNever created any account.Jun 12 21:28
schestowitzCOLA's trolls (MS Munchkins) spread this libel.Jun 12 21:28
Beinerischestowitz: you never had a Digg account!?Jun 12 21:28
schestowitzIt's amusing how Novell employees use Microsoft's/Munchkin's libel.Jun 12 21:29
schestowitzI have. One.Jun 12 21:29
Beineriaha, so "one" is not "any"?Jun 12 21:29
*aeshna (n=chatzill@70.20.109.29) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 21:29
tessier_Beineri: That isn't a significant point. He clearly meant he didn't create any fake accounts.Jun 12 21:30
mib_m619s6schestowitz: I haven't said you did. I said if one would like to spam digg (to answer tessier_ s question) one could do this via astroturfing - which is exactly what you are accusing the novell / suse devs. so there is no libel at all.Jun 12 21:30
schestowitzI don't do AstroTurfing. Many people befriended me over time, so some people there keep track of my stories.Jun 12 21:32
schestowitzThere is nothing coordinated. I just submit Linux stories that I like. Whoever likes it, diggs it.Jun 12 21:32
schestowitzSee you guys later.Jun 12 21:34
*Beineri talkes about comments...Jun 12 21:35
mib_m619s6schestowitz: And now we get to the problem. Those stories are just stories (as in fictional stories) as in reports (that are based on facts). Honestly you see a conspiracy behind a suse dev posting a link to a faq that actually contains more facts than your whole site and get excited about their community manager looking for people to help to increase the popularity. I mean WTF!? Seriously if you have a problem Jun 12 21:36
*mib_m619s6 listens to the silence & wonders if this log ill get posted on the website tooJun 12 21:38
PetoKrauswill.Jun 12 21:39
mib_m619s6anyways, since you wont change your mind I think this discussion is pretty pointless. I'll look in from time to time just for the laughs :) Take care guys.Jun 12 21:40
*mib_m619s6 (i=5496d132@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c2ed0b2d8cd43114) has left #boycottnovellJun 12 21:40
aeshnai just read some news that will interest people here.  i hesitate to bring this up, because I am Republican, but often the Republican Party is wrong:   http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?...Jun 12 21:40
tessier_I wish more people would do as mib_m619s6 does and just ignore it if they don't like itJun 12 21:42
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*fde (n=fde@unaffiliated/fde) has joined #boycottnovellJun 12 21:53
fdeI'm confused, the deals between Microsoft and Novell deal with ZENworks... why is it relevant at all to Linux? Why do you waste money showing how uneducated you are on the matter? Just as the GPL has certain restrictions, and that's their prepogative, so do proprietary vendors, either abide by that, or don't use the software.Jun 12 21:55
fdeMicrosoft has donated OOXML to the Patent Commons also, and are providing support for it in OpenOffice the right way... what exactly is the problem?Jun 12 21:57
fdePeople didn't hate the Indemnity deals, but because Novell got Microsoft to support their version of Linux, it's all of a sudden aweful?Jun 12 21:58
fdeLast I heard, the primary reason and motivation behind Linux wasn't to hate Microsoft, look at http://www.linuxfoundati... for other proprietary rich companies that are providing resources to Linux, Microsoft is doing the same thing, but working directly with Novell for Virtualization and management solutions as ZENworks is proprietary too, and they don't want to release that code...Jun 12 22:03
fdeThey're also working with Samba and others... you're going to stop using all that software too? Spreading FUD is pointless, and that's exactly what Boycott Novell is about, nothing concrete at all. Right now, nothing bad has occured, everything has been good for people spending money on Linux.Jun 12 22:05
fdeIf you think Linux shouldn't be supported by corporations at all, that it should remain a hobbiest project, try FreeBSD or something. About 80% of work done on Linux is funded by corporations today.Jun 12 22:07
fdeThose corporations spent more than $40 billion in 2007 developing Linux... you ignore that though, and target one vendor only... why?Jun 12 22:07
*benjamin is now known as benJImanJun 12 22:10
fdeThat vender also happens to be the second most active company in the kernel space. They're giving back more than any other company, they still have the largest open source dedicated lab... all of that is ignored because they also have proprietary stuff and choose to work with proprietary competitors on interoperability between that software?Jun 12 22:11
fdeIt's a joke, and you need a more worthwhile hobby.Jun 12 22:13
*Beineri has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 12 22:23
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to [H]omerJun 12 22:27
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 113 (No route to host))Jun 12 22:27
-ChanServ-You have been opped on #boycottnovell by [H]omerJun 12 22:36
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzJun 12 22:36
*[H]omer removes voice from fdeJun 12 22:54
-ChanServ-You have been opped on #slated by [H]omerJun 12 22:58
tessier_fde: Nobody is against corporations developing LinuxJun 12 23:26
tessier_fde: We are against corporations cutting deals with Microsoft which undermine Linux.Jun 12 23:26
tessier_http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st...Jun 13 00:57
tessier_You guys seen this yet?Jun 13 00:57
tessier_Another nail in the Novell coffinJun 13 00:57
tessier_Also:Jun 13 01:01
tessier_http://msftextrememakeover.blogspot.com...Jun 13 01:02
tessier_For example, I bought my first MSFT shares back in the early 90's. Like most holders that decade, I did very well. Then came this one, which has been an absolute disaster.Jun 13 01:02
tessier_There are too many issues to mention, but let’s review some of the real lowlights:Jun 13 01:04
tessier_Wow. Great list of major MS screwups.Jun 13 01:05
*balzac (n=balzac@user-387hrgt.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #boycottnovellJun 13 01:11
*dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovellJun 13 01:35
*moparx returnsJun 13 01:45

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