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| schestowitz | Groklaw's response to Nokia: "ere's my answer. No thanks. Do what you like, but if you wish to use the code, you obey the license. If not, please write your own. Personally, I won't use DRM'd products. I can wait. I understand Hollywood is a problem for you, but until they wake up and realize they are destroying their old business model by scrupulously avoiding any new ones, instead trying to graft the old one onto a new age, I'll just avoid | Jun 12 04:22 |
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| schestowitz | their offerings. I can live without Hollywood, I find, when it's something this vital. I understand that puts Nokia in a tough spot, because they want to do deals with Hollywood. Go ahead and do deals, but leave me out. And please don't use FOSS code until you are ready to play by the rules. I just won't buy or use any Nokia phones if you break the rules. I think that's fair" | Jun 12 04:22 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.groklaw.net/newsitems.php | Jun 12 04:22 |
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| schestowitz | Here is a new aticle that calls RMS "_Open source_ guru": http://www.techradar.com/new... | Jun 12 06:21 |
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| moparx | hey all | Jun 12 13:12 |
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| schestowitz | Hey <moparx> | Jun 12 13:16 |
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| moparx | well the down vote campaign started. all the recent submissions by "komrad" have been driven into the negatives | Jun 12 13:20 |
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| schestowitz | Who is doing this? And why? | Jun 12 13:23 |
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| moparx | one of the folks doing the downvoting has only been a member of FSDaily for an hour | Jun 12 13:25 |
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| schestowitz | Do you reckon that they AstroTurf? Do you happen to know who komrad is? | Jun 12 13:26 |
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| moparx | it also seems the people who are downvoting rarely use the site anyway (small amount of votes considering how long they have been members, etc) | Jun 12 13:27 |
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| moparx | no idea who komrad is | Jun 12 13:27 |
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| schestowitz | *sigh* What triggered this, I wonder... I didn't write anything rude, I don't think so. My criticism of Novell was well backed by external sources too. | Jun 12 13:28 |
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| schestowitz | I wad one of the items this morning (I don't typically read such stuff because it's time-consuming and distracting). They make false accusations, mix it w/ a bit of libel and then criticise (baselessly) the research methods. But hey... if could be worse. They could come to my house and then write some fables about a car with religious pamphlets and claim that I'm 65. | Jun 12 13:30 |
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| moparx | this all seems to have started from the initally boycott "boycott novell" blog posts such as the guy bitching about your "potshots" against his employer (sourceforge) and the other claimed you were callintg mark s a sellout... all the anti-bn posts seem to have happpened with in a few days time | Jun 12 13:34 |
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| schestowitz | Mark Fink came to the Ubuntu list with our post and appeared hostile. I clarified this in FSDaily. | Jun 12 13:35 |
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| moparx | bah my spelling sucks this morning | Jun 12 13:35 |
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| schestowitz | By the way, Mark Shuttleworth responded moments ago: http://boycottnovell.com/2008... Maybe I should post a clarifications? I don't want to feed those foul-mouth critics though. | Jun 12 13:36 |
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| schestowitz | *foul-mouthed | Jun 12 13:36 |
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| moparx | that is entirely up to you :) | Jun 12 13:37 |
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| PetoKraus | 91 comments | Jun 12 13:37 |
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| PetoKraus | d'oh | Jun 12 13:37 |
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| schestowitz | I think I'll skip it. PJ would do the same. She would never mention the likes of MOG. It's also a time waster. | Jun 12 13:38 |
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| moparx | *nod* | Jun 12 13:38 |
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| schestowitz | mark is very polite and clever. Sadly, people got the impression that I was confronting him in a hostile fashion because of the context in which it was brought up (in Ubuntu mailing lists) | Jun 12 13:39 |
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| schestowitz | Noteworthy: Perens says "Red Hat further discusses the settlement on their web site. Red Hat still faces a suit by IP Innovation LLC, a "patent troll" company staffed with ex-Microsoft executives." ( http://technocrat.net/d/... ) | Jun 12 13:39 |
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| schestowitz | I was going to write a clarification, but changed my mind. It's like defending myself against what? What really? We really ought to not get distracted by the people as in {people, events, ideas}. I get attacked by anonymous Munchkins in places, but there's no point in rebutting because it goes on endlessly and takes you off the right topic. If the attacks some from {anonymous cowards}^TM, then it's truly pointless. | Jun 12 13:49 |
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| moparx | Ya it is probably best to let it be as to not fuel the fire any | Jun 12 13:50 |
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| schestowitz | I'v just realised that Robert McMillan keeps bringing more and more positive reports about Free software. If only there was more reporters like him... (IDG) | Jun 12 13:54 |
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| schestowitz | Wow, this is very cool. Sabayon is now issuing intl' press releases: http://www.prweb.com/relea... That guy is only like 20 and he's hacking on Linux with great success. | Jun 12 13:57 |
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| schestowitz | Just found this one: http://www.pcworld.com/business... I supports my assertion that Microsoft's profit is likely to decline (year-to-year) in the next report, just like in the last quarter. This is significant. MSFT is around 52-week low. | Jun 12 14:06 |
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| *moparx_ is now known as moparx | Jun 12 14:09 |
| schestowitz | OBS: Gartner does what IDC tried a year ago ago (and failed): iPhone FUD http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/146998/ga... ("Gartner Advises Caution on New IPhone's Place in Companies"). Both IDC and Gartner do a lot of business with Microsoft, which is also a major investor. They are marketers in suits. | Jun 12 14:15 |
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| schestowitz | hi, max_stirner. | Jun 12 14:38 |
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| max_stirner | hello roy :) | Jun 12 14:38 |
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| moparx | welcome to #boycottnovell | Jun 12 14:38 |
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| schestowitz | I never likes the name of the site (Boycott Novell). I blame Shane. :-) | Jun 12 14:39 |
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| max_stirner | i'm sure you're aware there's a war on of sorts in the fsdaily blogosphere? | Jun 12 14:39 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, thanks for the headsup. I speak to PJ about it at the moment. | Jun 12 14:39 |
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| max_stirner | boycott novell seems highly specific, but it's a just war :D | Jun 12 14:39 |
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| moparx | we've been discussing it | Jun 12 14:39 |
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| moparx | it is sort of silly | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| max_stirner | some novell employee even came along posting the ms-novell faq @ opensuse | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| max_stirner | http://en.opensuse.org/FAQ:MS-Novell | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| max_stirner | :D | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| schestowitz | The FAQ is old. | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| max_stirner | sure.. | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| schestowitz | I think we debunked it a long, long time ago. | Jun 12 14:40 |
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| max_stirner | are you going to engage on the blogfront? might get a nice flamewar going | Jun 12 14:41 |
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| schestowitz | It's like a thick coat of paint on an elephant in the room. | Jun 12 14:41 |
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| schestowitz | No, I prefer not to. That's why I inquired: "If a bunch of anonymous blogs launch an libelous attack on my credibility and ask people to ignore me, should I ignore or rebut? I reckon I should ignore. " | Jun 12 14:42 |
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| max_stirner | that's the question isn't it | Jun 12 14:42 |
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| schestowitz | http://scobleizer.com/2006/03/0... | Jun 12 14:43 |
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| max_stirner | any publicty is good publicity | Jun 12 14:43 |
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| max_stirner | it's actually a measure of your success really | Jun 12 14:44 |
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| schestowitz | In retrospect this one is funny: "The second thing of Roy’s I’d like to reply to is his link to an article that says that there’s a back door in Vista." Wel, well, well.... who was right and who was wrong? There *IS* a back door for the police. it was in the news. | Jun 12 14:44 |
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| max_stirner | line jumped out at me, that exactly what i was laughing about just now | Jun 12 14:45 |
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| max_stirner | wasn't that made official the other day? | Jun 12 14:45 |
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| schestowitz | A month ago roughly. | Jun 12 14:45 |
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| max_stirner | :D | Jun 12 14:45 |
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| max_stirner | i don't think you're strident or whatever they're saying in those blogs, but i do have a major confidence that the war is won ;) | Jun 12 14:46 |
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| schestowitz | That's when the press jumped on it anyway. Another thing is the zombie epidemic. I argued some years about the the proportion was high (Microsoft and other said "isolated"). Recently in USA Today: 40% of the PCs are zombies. Geer lost his job for 'daring' to say this. | Jun 12 14:46 |
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| schestowitz | Which one? | Jun 12 14:46 |
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| max_stirner | the future / FOSS versus the monopolist(s) | Jun 12 14:47 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know. But it's like a case of someone breaking into one's house. They want to have us bruised and subverted once entered. | Jun 12 14:47 |
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| max_stirner | I certainly concur on the zombie front, on top of that you got all the keyloggers. I'm always entertained seeing peoples' winpcs and them doing their banking on there and everything | Jun 12 14:48 |
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| schestowitz | As in... Free software will be hybrid open source that works 'better' on Windows and uses the Microsoft APIs. That kind of stuff. Oh! And swpatents, of course, because Microsoft needs to milk /some/ cash cow. | Jun 12 14:48 |
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| max_stirner | There's a certain historical force about it, not in the Marxist sense, rather technological/economical imperative | Jun 12 14:48 |
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| schestowitz | Well, Free software was the 'default'. It's not NEW. | Jun 12 14:49 |
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| schestowitz | People are taught to believe that .EXE is 'healthy' and source code is 'ugly' and 'black hat hacker' and 'cheap'. | Jun 12 14:49 |
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| PetoKraus | :D | Jun 12 14:50 |
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| max_stirner | I actually went to linux for the stability and quality ;) A computer geek installed it on my PC back in the day | Jun 12 14:50 |
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| schestowitz | Perfect Microsoft/Oracle FUD: people chooses FOSS so that they can tinker and save buncks. | Jun 12 14:51 |
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| schestowitz | *bucks | Jun 12 14:51 |
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| max_stirner | but that's exactly what's happening as we speak. Copyleft principles are obviously of vast importance in making it futureproof. | Jun 12 14:52 |
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| moparx | it is sad that people do not realize that free software was where everything started in the old days. no one even thought about closing their source back then | Jun 12 14:53 |
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| schestowitz | Earlier today Simon Phipps links to http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ne... http://tinyurl.com/6ylvpx Microsoft too is betting on copyrights for future-proofing. | Jun 12 14:53 |
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| max_stirner | I can imagine, but that didnt work for big pharma either | Jun 12 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | <moparx> : back in the days you could also 'assumed' women were dumb, black people were 'slaves', and apartheid was the only way to go. It's all brainwash. | Jun 12 14:54 |
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| schestowitz | The sad thing is, if you look at Microsoft\'s SEC filing you'll find that it's encouraging brainwash (young children _copyrights) as a strategy. They try to raise a generation of Windows-addicted adolescents who just *love* patents. | Jun 12 14:56 |
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| max_stirner | Time for lunch, keep up the good fight dude. Just wanted to find out whether you're going to formulate a response. But looking over the articles again I guess there's lots of ranting and little content worthy of a rebuke.. | Jun 12 14:59 |
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| moparx | bring us back some snacks :) | Jun 12 14:59 |
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| schestowitz | By the way, I think my lines above could be misinterpreted or taken out of context | Jun 12 14:59 |
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| moparx | indeed | Jun 12 14:59 |
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| schestowitz | I meant to say (just for clarify, typos aside) that some time ago people were raised to adopt stereotypes. | Jun 12 15:00 |
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| schestowitz | In certain nations people are still raised to disrespect or even hate women. Xenophobia is still common everywhere and labelling of Linux users (e.g. zealots) helps this similarly. | Jun 12 15:00 |
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| max_stirner | Just spotted you're on facebook? :D Jamais! | Jun 12 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | Just got an E-mail. It's better not to respond to the attacks. | Jun 12 15:02 |
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| schestowitz | Me or <moparx? Facebbook is possible Microsoft-bound (though Microsoft announced a similar service yesterday). I only 'joined' because I was invited (feet-dragging). | Jun 12 15:03 |
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| schestowitz | *possibly | Jun 12 15:03 |
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| moparx | I don't use it so it isn't me | Jun 12 15:03 |
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| max_stirner | I dont mind really, I use it like the older UK friends reunited | Jun 12 15:03 |
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| schestowitz | It's a friends 'catalogue'. That's how a friend of mine from the gym puts it. | Jun 12 15:03 |
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| max_stirner | Not on there with my real name obviously ;) | Jun 12 15:04 |
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| schestowitz | It's not even as though you own and control you *own* data. No export. | Jun 12 15:04 |
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| max_stirner | Annoying I know. Technology is NOT neutral (destruction of biosphere comes to mind..). But I'm on there to communicate with less technophile friends as well, same as for MSN (believe or not!) | Jun 12 15:05 |
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| schestowitz | I try to drag them back to E-mail. :-) AT least I can then have copies and portability. | Jun 12 15:07 |
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| max_stirner | I've got an orkut as well, hugely popular in Brazil. It's "try not to be too evil" google, but it allows exporting of friends with e-mail | Jun 12 15:08 |
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| schestowitz | OBS: all hail open-source King Microsoft (Thailand)... Factory for open-source programming ( http://nationmultimedia.com/2008/06/1... ). More assimilation/hijacking. | Jun 12 15:08 |
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| schestowitz | There's this ongoing debate about the future of GNOME: http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1196 (part of a bunch of posts) | Jun 12 15:16 |
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| alan___ | mono is the shitzers | Jun 12 16:50 |
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| alan___ | wtf | Jun 12 16:50 |
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| PetoKraus | some routers are PAIN to configure | Jun 12 18:34 |
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| schestowitz | Are you messing with one? Which distro/firmware? | Jun 12 18:45 |
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| schestowitz | I've replied in http://www.fsdaily.com/Commu... and http://www.fsdaily.com/Communit... . In short, it appears likely that the OpenSUSE members have all ganged up to game Free Software Daily and do their smears. | Jun 12 19:00 |
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| tessier_ | schestowitz: I would ignore those people and not get drawn in. | Jun 12 19:18 |
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| schestowitz | I couldn't resist. Some of them used to comment in BoycottNovell, but they change habitats. Some of them work for Novell (maybe) or participate in the board (for a fact). They must have spread E-mails to help game the system (you can see the bursts of modding up/down). It's like a gang of hyenas. :-) | Jun 12 19:21 |
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| moparx | schestowitz: that zerogravity guy on FSDaily is one of the new accounts | Jun 12 19:34 |
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| moparx | even more new accounts are showing up now | Jun 12 19:37 |
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| schestowitz | I haven't checked, so thanks for pointing that out. The whole thing is funny because you see the score oscillating from... say 17 down to 12, then up to 19... they surely pass some messages around. Some of the comments are contentless "yes men" | Jun 12 19:37 |
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| moparx | its also on the ubuntu forum | Jun 12 19:38 |
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| schestowitz | Got URL? | Jun 12 19:38 |
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| moparx | 1 sec | Jun 12 19:38 |
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| moparx | http://ubuntuforums.org/sh... | Jun 12 19:38 |
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| schestowitz | Thanks. | Jun 12 19:39 |
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| moparx | I couldn't help but notice some openSUSE articles have shown up on FSDaily's queue and are being upvoted by many the same people | Jun 12 19:57 |
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| schestowitz | The site admins ought to be informed, I think. In fact, I'll update a post I published seconds ago. | Jun 12 19:58 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: Invisible citation [http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/12/ha... | Jun 12 19:58 |
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| schestowitz | Oops. Thanks. | Jun 12 19:59 |
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| moparx | your first link is messed up | Jun 12 20:00 |
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| moparx | "engage in a title=”Sockpuppet (Internet)”>sockpuppet" | Jun 12 20:00 |
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| schestowitz | Yup. Fixed now. :-) Thanks. | Jun 12 20:01 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: Still no citation. | Jun 12 20:02 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, to the smears? PJ thought that the worse one can do it link to the libel | Jun 12 20:03 |
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| benJIman | schestowitz: No, what you're doing is the libel, making accusations without even providing a citation. | Jun 12 20:03 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: could you elaborate a bit on http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0... ? | Jun 12 20:04 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about | Jun 12 20:04 |
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| *benJIman is now known as benjamin | Jun 12 20:04 |
| yaloki | zoobab: oh look who's there | Jun 12 20:05 |
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| schestowitz | Ah, I see. | Jun 12 20:06 |
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| yaloki | zoobab: salut benjamin | Jun 12 20:06 |
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| PetoKraus | umm warwick :) | Jun 12 20:07 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: you mean the fact that articles/blog posts about openSUSE are being digged ? | Jun 12 20:08 |
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| yaloki | "huh" :) | Jun 12 20:08 |
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| benjamin | Well that's not a smear campaign. | Jun 12 20:08 |
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| yaloki | no, not in any way, which is why I'm asking :) | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | Okay, maybe a big word(s), but what should it be called? | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: um, digg, like everyone else? | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| benjamin | What should what be called? | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | I've added a link... | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| schestowitz | <yaloki>, what do you mean? | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| benjamin | schestowitz: How is people digging an openSUSE story a smear campaign against boycottnovell? | Jun 12 20:09 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: that link is about microsoft, what exactly are you accusing the opensuse community of ? I still fail to see | Jun 12 20:10 |
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| schestowitz | No, see the FSDaily stuff. There's more than that. I just don't want to link to ot. | Jun 12 20:10 |
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| schestowitz | *it | Jun 12 20:10 |
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| benjamin | You mean he linked to the FAQ? | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| benjamin | http://opensuse.org/FAQ:MS-Novell ? | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| benjamin | That has been there for months | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| benjamin | Furthermore, it does not even mention boycottnovell. | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| tacone | http://feeds.zawodny.com/~r/jzawo... | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| PetoKraus | well, evidence would be good. | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| schestowitz | No, the story that's there plus some other things like artificial boosting and accusations that I have something to do with Konrad (among others) | Jun 12 20:11 |
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| benjamin | Which story? | Jun 12 20:12 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know.. | Jun 12 20:12 |
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| PetoKraus | you *could* specify it a bit more | Jun 12 20:12 |
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| benjamin | He didn't post the story, he only linked to the faq. | Jun 12 20:12 |
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| schestowitz | Two or three recent blog posts, I suppose, but I suspect we haven't more proof other that the presence of Francis and others whose usernames I recoignise (SUSE people). | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| PetoKraus | it's like "you guys know what you're doing, and i just wanna say, that I know it as well, and dont like it, but i won't talk about it." | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | Heh. | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| benjamin | It's not much of a smear campaign if no-one can find the smear. | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| PetoKraus | which leaves lot of people like "what the hell is going on?" | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| benjamin | Not even those supposedly behind it. | Jun 12 20:13 |
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| schestowitz | Hmmm.... | Jun 12 20:14 |
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| PetoKraus | you know, sockpuppetry is a bad, yet common thing. | Jun 12 20:14 |
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| schestowitz | I'll modify to headline to indicate uncertainty. | Jun 12 20:14 |
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| PetoKraus | i don't think that post fits BN. | Jun 12 20:14 |
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| PetoKraus | BN is usually full of references... this is... not. | Jun 12 20:14 |
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| PetoKraus | ok, back to my FLYT's | Jun 12 20:15 |
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| yaloki | ummm | Jun 12 20:16 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: you /might/ want to see it this way, just consider it, for a moment, as one possibility of what is "happening": | Jun 12 20:17 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: it isn't a smear campaign, it isn't something organized | Jun 12 20:17 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: you're having it all wrong, you're just spreading FUD without proof, random accusations, paranoiac theories of black suits and helicopters | Jun 12 20:17 |
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| schestowitz | Well, I'm not sure. Not by Novell, mind you, but the OpenSUSE chums probably spread some E-mails around. | Jun 12 20:17 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: and well, people have noticed | Jun 12 20:18 |
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| benjamin | O_o | Jun 12 20:18 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: how is that ? is it so remote compared to your black suit theory of a coordinated "attack" ? | Jun 12 20:18 |
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| *yaloki hands schestowitz occam's razor | Jun 12 20:18 |
| schestowitz | Huh? | Jun 12 20:18 |
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| benjamin | Why would openSUSE people launch a smear campaign against such an entertaining site. | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| schestowitz | Hold on a second! | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| schestowitz | yaloki (n=loki@opensuse/member/pbleser) | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: we would rather aggregate your blog on planetsuse btw | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: it's pretty entertaining | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| benjamin | It has been suggested a few times. | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: yes, I'm an opensuse board member | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | *shocking* ? | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| schestowitz | So, what we have here is yet another OpenSUSE member coming to do some work in the IRC channel, eh? | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | heh | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| yaloki | so you don't actually read what I wrote | Jun 12 20:19 |
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| PetoKraus | you didn't write anything | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| PetoKraus | anything containing more information than roy's post | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| PetoKraus | i must admit. | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | You didn't write it, unless I missed it. | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| yaloki | I did, here, above | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | And you're not the first opensuse person to have entered this channel. I can think of several others. | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| *Beineri (n=Beineri@kde/binner) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 12 20:20 |
| benjamin | rofl | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | What I find flaterring is that you entered this place just a minute after I had posted that. | Jun 12 20:20 |
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| schestowitz | Here come Beineri of Novell? | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: look, let me put it this way: I don't care what you're doing or writing, really, honest | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| schestowitz | YaST developer, IIRC? | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| Beineri | Schestowitz, master of wrong information I guess? | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: I've done a whole lot for FOSS, I don't need to prove my integrity | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| schestowitz | Did you or did you not mess about with those sites that are mentioned? | Jun 12 20:21 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: totally not | Jun 12 20:22 |
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| schestowitz | Fine, but your motives are clear. | Jun 12 20:22 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: there is no "coordinated attack" or whatever you're talking about | Jun 12 20:22 |
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| schestowitz | Well, you guys sure were aware of it? How come? :-) | Jun 12 20:22 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: but even that, I don't care, if you think that's the reason people are criticizing BN on fsdaily, well whatever makes your reality nicer | Jun 12 20:22 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: because we read BN :) | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: it's fun :) | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| PetoKraus | yes it is. | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| PetoKraus | it depends on PoV. | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| PetoKraus | i am not a conspiration theorist, but i find it mildly amusing that | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: still, maybe you'd want to read what I told you above | Jun 12 20:23 |
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| yaloki | and if not, not, I don't really bother actually | Jun 12 20:24 |
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| yaloki | just that, as I wrote above, I didn't understand what you were talking about | Jun 12 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | well, there is only a statement, that you personally did not do anything on digg etc, and, that you are doing something organized, but it's not a smear campaign | Jun 12 20:24 |
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| PetoKraus | *are not doing | Jun 12 20:24 |
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| yaloki | now I read that thread on fsdaily, and your lines here on IRC, and now I see | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| yaloki | PetoKraus: talking to me ? | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | on the other hand, considering 4 people related to novell/suse/opensuse | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | joined the channel in last 5 minutes | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| yaloki | well yes | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | it's not really organized. Like, at all. | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| yaloki | umm.. well, no | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| yaloki | we talked about it on #opensuse-chat | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | yaloki: no, i am having my schizophrenic moment, talking to myself. As usual. nothing to see here, carry on. | Jun 12 20:25 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 12 20:26 |
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| schestowitz | Ok, look what's in my inbox? Notification of 4 messages posted in just 5 minutes... from OpenSUSE people... even board member | Jun 12 20:26 |
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| schestowitz | wait, I want to see what they write. | Jun 12 20:26 |
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| benjamin | It's almost as if there were some sort of syndication feed whereby people could be notified of new stories. | Jun 12 20:26 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: so, what is so strange about "opensuse people" (I only know one person as being with opensuse on the fsdaily discussion) reading fsdaily and responding ? | Jun 12 20:27 |
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| schestowitz | Even those anonymous blogges suddenly seem to show identity/affiliation. I'd need to look. | Jun 12 20:27 |
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| PetoKraus | ^^ that's really unlikely, benjamin | Jun 12 20:27 |
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| schestowitz | Wait... | Jun 12 20:27 |
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| schestowitz | Ok, lookie here. New comment on OpenSUSE just moments after posting... look from /who/: http://seanrtilley.blogspot.com/200... | Jun 12 20:28 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSUSE... an attack on us... again. What a 'coincidence' this must be. | Jun 12 20:29 |
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| benjamin | O_o | Jun 12 20:29 |
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| yaloki | heheh | Jun 12 20:30 |
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| yaloki | schestowitz: oh man, you're even funnier live than on BN | Jun 12 20:30 |
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| yaloki | what an imagination :) | Jun 12 20:31 |
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| schestowitz | I've got links I want to post. You can carry on with your childish thing. | Jun 12 20:32 |
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| Beineri | it's true, history repeats: the users of digg couldn't stand schestowitz' spamming anymore, now the users of fsdaily speak up against being spammed with schestowitz content | Jun 12 20:33 |
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| yaloki | Beineri: no no, it's us doing a coordinated attack | Jun 12 20:33 |
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| PetoKraus | and then, you completely without coordination joined a channel, where you never ever been | Jun 12 20:34 |
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| PetoKraus | that _makes_ sense. | Jun 12 20:34 |
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| PetoKraus | *you'd | Jun 12 20:34 |
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| yaloki | PetoKraus: well again, as I wrote above, we happened to talk about it on an opensuse IRC channel and came to ask about details | Jun 12 20:34 |
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| yaloki | PetoKraus: what's so weird or black-suiteish about that ? | Jun 12 20:34 |
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| tessier_ | How is Roy spamming digg? | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| tessier_ | Don't people have to vote up the articles etc? | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: just curious about the latest smear campaing of Boy against openSUSE... | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| schestowitz | I don't spam digg. | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| schestowitz | The COLA trolls are there. 4 of them. | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| Beineri | schestowitz: you don't anymore, you did though. | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| PetoKraus | yaloki: i don't see your dress :) and it's pretty normal. | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| tessier_ | I would just refuse to talk to them. | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| schestowitz | flatfish, Tim (hardlowmonkeys) and others who stalk me there and have done this by their own admission for about a year | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| tessier_ | And if they join the channel kick them | Jun 12 20:35 |
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| PetoKraus | tessier_: that's NOT how you should deal with problems | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| tessier_ | Never dignify their complaints with a response. It's hard but it only feeds them. | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| tessier_ | PetoKraus: That is how you deal with problems on the Internet. | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| yaloki | oh, wow | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| tessier_ | Otherwise they become bigger problems. | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| PetoKraus | :) nah | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| PetoKraus | if there's someone WRONG on the internet | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| PetoKraus | ... | Jun 12 20:36 |
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| *benjamin has almost finished this popcorn. | Jun 12 20:36 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, I've got some good Linux links to post in BN.com. This argument with Ballnux devs is pointless. | Jun 12 20:37 |
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| Beineri | schestowitz: or do you want to dispute that you posted under every openSUSE/Novell related stories at least one "boycott novell" comment? | Jun 12 20:37 |
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| yaloki | benjamin: myeah, me too, time to get back to some real work I guess | Jun 12 20:37 |
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| *yaloki gives Steve a call for this weekend's bbq | Jun 12 20:38 |
| tessier_ | Beware the Streisand Effect: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... | Jun 12 20:38 |
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| tessier_ | Debating something on the net is not the way to shut anyone up. | Jun 12 20:38 |
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| PetoKraus | sure. that's why you have... umm... MiB's | Jun 12 20:39 |
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| yaloki | mm.. myeah, providing evidence, proof, content, that would be quite a change, jeez | Jun 12 20:39 |
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| yaloki | ok, whatever, real stuff to do, have a lot of fun | Jun 12 20:39 |
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| PetoKraus | you forgot the "!" | Jun 12 20:40 |
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| yaloki | I'm always available to discuss or debate with you guys, if it's in a friendly relaxed manner | Jun 12 20:40 |
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| tessier_ | Unfortunately I have to admit that Roy rarely links to anything useful on BN. Just lots of links to his own articles. | Jun 12 20:40 |
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| yaloki | PetoKraus: darn, true | Jun 12 20:40 |
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| tessier_ | Groklaw does it much better with lots of external links to other sources and court documents | Jun 12 20:40 |
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| *yaloki (n=loki@opensuse/member/pbleser) has left #boycottnovell | Jun 12 20:41 |
| schestowitz | <tessier_>, those items contain external links. They highlight particular parts of stories. | Jun 12 20:41 |
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| schestowitz | For example, I may link to a previous post showing how Alex Brown relates to the British Library. That post will have external references showing this, as well as prior examples. | Jun 12 20:42 |
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| tessier_ | schestowitz: If I were you I would also exercise fascist censorship the comments on your blog. Delete any you don't agree with. It's your blog. Nobody has a right to free speech there. | Jun 12 20:43 |
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| tessier_ | Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. | Jun 12 20:43 |
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| PetoKraus | that would give you bad press though | Jun 12 20:44 |
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| PetoKraus | might * | Jun 12 20:44 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know. | Jun 12 20:44 |
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| PetoKraus | I hate when THEY do it. | Jun 12 20:44 |
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| schestowitz | PJ advocated deleting, but we only ever flag (one person ONLY) | Jun 12 20:44 |
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| PetoKraus | i like the "we" :) | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | Jeff Jones (Microsoft's security liar) deleted my polite comment because it said the truth he disliked. | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| tessier_ | It won't give you bad press on your own blog since you can delete them | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | We as in me and Shane | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| PetoKraus | tessier: it would on other. | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| tessier_ | You can't stop them from doing it on their own blogs as it is their right. | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| tessier_ | Just like it is your right to do the same on yours. | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| PetoKraus | schestowitz: i didn't see a post from shane for quite a long... | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| schestowitz | Then again, when a blog gets "censor" reputation, that in its own right is bad reputation. | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| tessier_ | You do a disservice to your readers by letting info you know is false to be shown on your blog in the comments | Jun 12 20:45 |
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| tessier_ | Censor reputation or no will not stop them from coming and reading your blog | Jun 12 20:46 |
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| schestowitz | I don't think it became so bad that we're flooded by disinfo. | Jun 12 20:46 |
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| tessier_ | Fucker T. Washington said, | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| tessier_ | June 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| tessier_ | Dear fucking idiot | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| tessier_ | I'd definitely delete that one if it were my blog. :) | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| Beineri | the whole front-page is flooded by disinfos, why add more in the comments? ;-) | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: come on | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, but I'm too bust at the moment. I try to get something finished. | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| schestowitz | *busy | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| tessier_ | In fact I would probably just not allow comments. | Jun 12 20:47 |
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| tessier_ | That way they can't accuse you of censorship | Jun 12 20:48 |
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| tessier_ | Anything people really want to add can be emailed. | Jun 12 20:48 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: read 2nd comment, http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/1... | Jun 12 20:48 |
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| tessier_ | But that's just me. :) | Jun 12 20:48 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: you should be fair, at least. There's link post on the FP | Jun 12 20:48 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: well, sorry. I don't like Suse and Opensuse and anything RPM based either. | Jun 12 20:49 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: how does that make out of context quoting, adding of own misinterpreation + FUD etc. better? | Jun 12 20:49 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: how is the quote out of context? | Jun 12 20:50 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Please put it in context for us. | Jun 12 20:51 |
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| tessier_ | That is what you do when someone else quotes out of context. | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: what has it to do with openSUSE 11.0 release with what the story starts? | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| PetoKraus | the whole post is about SUSE | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| *Beineri heard the other day that you're planning some campaign against suspected success of openSUSE 11.0 in this channel here. Today it started? | Jun 12 20:52 |
| PetoKraus | there are two sentences regarding opensuse | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| tessier_ | suspected success? | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: I don't see "openSUSE" mentioned in the Washing Post story at all | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| PetoKraus | that's true | Jun 12 20:52 |
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| PetoKraus | but | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| PetoKraus | "Here is what the Washington Post has just had to say about Novell?s SUSE" | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| PetoKraus | that's not mentioning OpenSUSE at all... | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| tessier_ | I'm not sure how we can support OpenSUSE but not SUSE. | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| PetoKraus | sorry guys. OpenSUSE has to have some connection to SUSE... | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: Success I can believe in! ;-)... (no, I'm not a politican) Well, openSUSE seems to become more popular imo - see Distrowatch ranking etc. | Jun 12 20:53 |
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| tessier_ | I don't know anyone who runs any variant of SUSE | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Do you run SUSE? | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: sure | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| PetoKraus | well anecdotal evidence is not good evidence | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Are you afraid of Roy driving people away from it and making SUSE extinct? | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: no | Jun 12 20:54 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Are you getting paid to be here? | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: But I'm convinced that he thinks he can extinct SUSE/Novell ;-) | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| PetoKraus | well | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: no | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Do you work for SUSE/Novell? | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: yes | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| tessier_ | ah | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| PetoKraus | that makes you a BIT biased source | Jun 12 20:55 |
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| tessier_ | And you think he actually has a chance of succeeding at making Novell extinct? | Jun 12 20:56 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: you repeat yourself? | Jun 12 20:57 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: If you don't think he has a chance why do you care of schestowitz goes tilting at windmills on an impossible mission like some modern day Don Quixote? | Jun 12 20:59 |
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| tessier_ | I doubt any of the cola trolls work for Novell. They aren't very bright. Not coders for sure. And Novell would never want anyone who might possibly be exposed as working for them using that kind of language. | Jun 12 20:59 |
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| Beineri | about "suspected success", the talk here was "I wonder how to suppress its adoption on the day it’s released." | Jun 12 21:01 |
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| tessier_ | As for me personally, with so many good distros of Linux out there I don't see any reason to mess with a potentially tained distro like SUSE. | Jun 12 21:01 |
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| Beineri | sorry, (quick) adoption sounds to me like suspected success :-) | Jun 12 21:01 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: You really think he has a chance of supressing the adoption of SUSE? | Jun 12 21:01 |
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| PetoKraus | there'll be a log of this channel's talk on BN tomorrow, Beineri | Jun 12 21:02 |
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| *mib_m619s6 (i=5496d132@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c2ed0b2d8cd43114) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 12 21:02 |
| Beineri | PetoKraus: I know, so? | Jun 12 21:02 |
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| PetoKraus | just "for fun", you can read it, and judge what "anti-*SUSE" fud we spread | Jun 12 21:02 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: and I just quoted from some other day... | Jun 12 21:02 |
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| PetoKraus | to those hordes of users in doubt whether to pick Ubuntu or OpenSUSE or Mandriva or whatever | Jun 12 21:02 |
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| PetoKraus | and, who did you quote? | Jun 12 21:03 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: so you do think that one shouldn't "care" (I hope that doesn't imply starting a 'smear campaign') at all if someone spreads something wrong about you, your project or the company the whole time? | Jun 12 21:04 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: I think you are only bringing him more publicity. I wouldn't have known about this at all if I didn't look in here and see you going on about it. | Jun 12 21:04 |
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| tessier_ | The same goes for you as what I told him: The more you engage your opponent in pointless debate on the net the more harm you do to yourself. | Jun 12 21:05 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: quote -> "I wonder how to suppress its adoption on the day it’s released." | Jun 12 21:05 |
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| PetoKraus | WHO is that quote from | Jun 12 21:05 |
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| PetoKraus | was my question. | Jun 12 21:05 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: pardon? you want to say that you wouldn't have known about boycottnovell.com while being in #boycottnovell and me not being present? :-) | Jun 12 21:06 |
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| tessier_ | I wouldn't have known about that particular washington post article | Jun 12 21:06 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: schestowitz | Jun 12 21:06 |
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| tessier_ | I don't read BN all the time | Jun 12 21:06 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/08/irc-... | Jun 12 21:07 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: yeah, I don't think that (m)any people manage to read all posted stuff on it :-) | Jun 12 21:08 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: right. well, that looks like a smear campaign, i must amdit. | Jun 12 21:08 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: that I said something about quantity (versus quality)? | Jun 12 21:09 |
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| PetoKraus | Beineri: no, that part about "suppression" | Jun 12 21:09 |
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| Beineri | PetoKraus: ah, yeah. and schestowitz seems to doesn't know openSUSE at all when he suggest to be able to prove with screenshots that any other distro can be configured to look like openSUSE ;-) | Jun 12 21:10 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: Why couldn't any distro be configured to look like openSUSE? | Jun 12 21:11 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: because they don't include the same software, packages and/or patches? think YaST, KDE3 Kickoff, GNOME start menu, ... | Jun 12 21:11 |
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| tessier_ | But that's all free software right? | Jun 12 21:12 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: correct | Jun 12 21:12 |
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| tessier_ | You can install any and all of that on a RedHat system. | Jun 12 21:12 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: I don't think he meant he will put effort into packaging/porting of features to other distros. | Jun 12 21:13 |
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| PetoKraus | i think he meant, that the features ARE in other distros | Jun 12 21:13 |
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| Beineri | yeah, and is wrong - again | Jun 12 21:13 |
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| PetoKraus | well, I find all features i need in Gentoo, for example. It's about point of view | Jun 12 21:14 |
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| Beineri | sure, but other people may find openSUSE more fitting for them for individual reasons than other distros :-) | Jun 12 21:16 |
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| PetoKraus | that's why i don't like that exact approach | Jun 12 21:16 |
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| PetoKraus | to... persuade someone to NOT use OpenSUSE. | Jun 12 21:16 |
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| PetoKraus | moreover, the novell situation as a whole is tricky, and I guess roy admits it as well | Jun 12 21:17 |
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| PetoKraus | for example, RadeonHD driver is funded by Novell, which is a good thing. | Jun 12 21:18 |
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| PetoKraus | but doing good doesn't justify doing stupid things (which are mentioned on BN and elsewhere). | Jun 12 21:18 |
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| Beineri | it's a stupid world, not a perfect one :-) | Jun 12 21:19 |
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| PetoKraus | but idealism is the thing which moves the people forward. | Jun 12 21:19 |
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| schestowitz | The RadeonHD guys are not too fond of Novelll. | Jun 12 21:19 |
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| PetoKraus | schestowitz: i don't see that deep in these things. | Jun 12 21:20 |
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| Beineri | schestowitz: I guess you must be more specific :-), there are different drivers/teams working on Radeon drivers. | Jun 12 21:20 |
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| Beineri | schestowitz: what I would refer to "RadeonHD guys" is the Novell team. | Jun 12 21:21 |
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| *moparx_ (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 12 21:22 |
| *moparx has quit (Nick collision from services.) | Jun 12 21:22 |
| *moparx_ is now known as moparx | Jun 12 21:22 |
| mib_m619s6 | schestowitz: Roy, how does it come that everytime ask you to be more specific instead of vague handwaving & pointing in the general direction (in front of you or behind you) it gets very quiet? | Jun 12 21:24 |
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| Beineri | mib_m619s6: good observation | Jun 12 21:25 |
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| *Beineri wondered the same after asking schestowitz if he would dispute having spammed Digg | Jun 12 21:26 |
| mib_m619s6 | As someone else said: Quite often, the interpretation of the news that is reported is hyperbolic. Schestowitz then uses these interpretations as further evidence in later articles thus contributing to the amount of low quality evidence. | Jun 12 21:26 |
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| tessier_ | I still don't see how he could have spammed digg | Jun 12 21:26 |
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| Beineri | tessier_: as written, posting prepared/identical comments under every suse/novell related story | Jun 12 21:27 |
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| mib_m619s6 | in the same way as he accused the novell / suse people to do it. Create loads of fake accounts & pull an astroturf | Jun 12 21:27 |
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| tessier_ | oh, spamming the comments on digg | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| Beineri | mib_m619s6: no, it was all from the "schestowitz" (or what's his account is called there) account | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| tessier_ | I doubt he is creating fake accounts | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| tessier_ | He is too busy for that kind of thing | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | I didn't spam Digg. That's just more of the libel. | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | Never created any account. | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | COLA's trolls (MS Munchkins) spread this libel. | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| Beineri | schestowitz: you never had a Digg account!? | Jun 12 21:28 |
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| schestowitz | It's amusing how Novell employees use Microsoft's/Munchkin's libel. | Jun 12 21:29 |
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| schestowitz | I have. One. | Jun 12 21:29 |
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| Beineri | aha, so "one" is not "any"? | Jun 12 21:29 |
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| tessier_ | Beineri: That isn't a significant point. He clearly meant he didn't create any fake accounts. | Jun 12 21:30 |
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| mib_m619s6 | schestowitz: I haven't said you did. I said if one would like to spam digg (to answer tessier_ s question) one could do this via astroturfing - which is exactly what you are accusing the novell / suse devs. so there is no libel at all. | Jun 12 21:30 |
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| schestowitz | I don't do AstroTurfing. Many people befriended me over time, so some people there keep track of my stories. | Jun 12 21:32 |
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| schestowitz | There is nothing coordinated. I just submit Linux stories that I like. Whoever likes it, diggs it. | Jun 12 21:32 |
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| schestowitz | See you guys later. | Jun 12 21:34 |
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| *Beineri talkes about comments... | Jun 12 21:35 |
| mib_m619s6 | schestowitz: And now we get to the problem. Those stories are just stories (as in fictional stories) as in reports (that are based on facts). Honestly you see a conspiracy behind a suse dev posting a link to a faq that actually contains more facts than your whole site and get excited about their community manager looking for people to help to increase the popularity. I mean WTF!? Seriously if you have a problem | Jun 12 21:36 |
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| *mib_m619s6 listens to the silence & wonders if this log ill get posted on the website too | Jun 12 21:38 |
| PetoKraus | will. | Jun 12 21:39 |
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| mib_m619s6 | anyways, since you wont change your mind I think this discussion is pretty pointless. I'll look in from time to time just for the laughs :) Take care guys. | Jun 12 21:40 |
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| aeshna | i just read some news that will interest people here. i hesitate to bring this up, because I am Republican, but often the Republican Party is wrong: http://prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?... | Jun 12 21:40 |
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| tessier_ | I wish more people would do as mib_m619s6 does and just ignore it if they don't like it | Jun 12 21:42 |
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| fde | I'm confused, the deals between Microsoft and Novell deal with ZENworks... why is it relevant at all to Linux? Why do you waste money showing how uneducated you are on the matter? Just as the GPL has certain restrictions, and that's their prepogative, so do proprietary vendors, either abide by that, or don't use the software. | Jun 12 21:55 |
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| fde | Microsoft has donated OOXML to the Patent Commons also, and are providing support for it in OpenOffice the right way... what exactly is the problem? | Jun 12 21:57 |
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| fde | People didn't hate the Indemnity deals, but because Novell got Microsoft to support their version of Linux, it's all of a sudden aweful? | Jun 12 21:58 |
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| fde | Last I heard, the primary reason and motivation behind Linux wasn't to hate Microsoft, look at http://www.linuxfoundati... for other proprietary rich companies that are providing resources to Linux, Microsoft is doing the same thing, but working directly with Novell for Virtualization and management solutions as ZENworks is proprietary too, and they don't want to release that code... | Jun 12 22:03 |
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| fde | They're also working with Samba and others... you're going to stop using all that software too? Spreading FUD is pointless, and that's exactly what Boycott Novell is about, nothing concrete at all. Right now, nothing bad has occured, everything has been good for people spending money on Linux. | Jun 12 22:05 |
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| fde | If you think Linux shouldn't be supported by corporations at all, that it should remain a hobbiest project, try FreeBSD or something. About 80% of work done on Linux is funded by corporations today. | Jun 12 22:07 |
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| fde | Those corporations spent more than $40 billion in 2007 developing Linux... you ignore that though, and target one vendor only... why? | Jun 12 22:07 |
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| *benjamin is now known as benJIman | Jun 12 22:10 |
| fde | That vender also happens to be the second most active company in the kernel space. They're giving back more than any other company, they still have the largest open source dedicated lab... all of that is ignored because they also have proprietary stuff and choose to work with proprietary competitors on interoperability between that software? | Jun 12 22:11 |
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| fde | It's a joke, and you need a more worthwhile hobby. | Jun 12 22:13 |
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| -ChanServ-You have been opped on #boycottnovell by [H]omer | Jun 12 22:36 |
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| -ChanServ-You have been opped on #slated by [H]omer | Jun 12 22:58 |
| tessier_ | fde: Nobody is against corporations developing Linux | Jun 12 23:26 |
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| tessier_ | fde: We are against corporations cutting deals with Microsoft which undermine Linux. | Jun 12 23:26 |
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| tessier_ | http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/st... | Jun 13 00:57 |
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| tessier_ | You guys seen this yet? | Jun 13 00:57 |
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| tessier_ | Another nail in the Novell coffin | Jun 13 00:57 |
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| tessier_ | Also: | Jun 13 01:01 |
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| tessier_ | http://msftextrememakeover.blogspot.com... | Jun 13 01:02 |
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| tessier_ | For example, I bought my first MSFT shares back in the early 90's. Like most holders that decade, I did very well. Then came this one, which has been an absolute disaster. | Jun 13 01:02 |
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| tessier_ | There are too many issues to mention, but let’s review some of the real lowlights: | Jun 13 01:04 |
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| tessier_ | Wow. Great list of major MS screwups. | Jun 13 01:05 |
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