09.02.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 1st, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 11:45 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

ReverseGTR schestowitz: is the new news posted yet? Sep 01 00:14
schestowitz No, not yet. Urgent? I could do it tonight or tomorrow. Your choice. Sep 01 00:15
ReverseGTR schestowitz: not really urgent, I was just wondering about the progress Sep 01 00:15
schestowitz No progress on it yet. It needs tidying up a bit. I then need to connect it to previous posts so that I needn’t repeat old citations and arguments. Sep 01 00:16
twitter Checked out that attack link of yours and found this http://blogbeebe.blogspot.co… Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz Yes. He did these before… Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz Groklaw gives him the kick. Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz He backed O’Gara and the spaying on PJ. Sep 01 00:50
twitter Quotes “Fucker T. Washington”, obvious troll. Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz I’m off to bed now. Sep 01 00:50
twitter night night Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR cya Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz Yes, a recist racist troll Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz *racist Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR and keep’em coming Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR lol yea, hence why less folks will take that rant seriously Sep 01 00:51
ReverseGTR and what does he or she know about exposing misdeeds? Sep 01 00:51
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twitter :) Nice round up of astroturf groups. Sep 01 14:38
schestowitz Old news though; good for future referencing, e.g. when ACT comes up. Sep 01 14:40
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schestowitz FAA runs Windows. Check the latest: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir… Sep 01 15:10
schestowitz The Snyder article has made Slashdot < http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08… >. Since the guy like to sling mud at Linux, I believe his hidden message in this case is that there’s no money in GNU/Linux. It’s a form of FUD, which he backs using studies from The 451 Group. The first comment is interesting too. Sep 01 15:28
schestowitz Reader says “Microsoft Jack trashing Apple again”: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/tech… Sep 01 15:32
twitter Windows is no longer mentioned in that FAA article.  Did you save the text? Sep 01 16:02
schestowitz Which article? Sep 01 16:03
twitter http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news… Sep 01 16:03
schestowitz http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.li… Sep 01 16:04
twitter Nice work. Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz I did mine too: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.li… Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz BTW, I’m separating these from large threads because Microsoft Munchkins hijack them and spread libel. Sep 01 16:06
trmanco http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news… Sep 01 16:06
trmanco this one almost got me Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz Yeah, I gave up after the opening when I saw it hours ago. Sep 01 16:07
twitter Power just failed, battery won’t last long, have to see you later …. Sep 01 16:10
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schestowitz Banter at the Inquirer. You can tell what to skip based on writers. Sep 01 16:11
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MinceR apparently Monkey Boy managed to buy the hungarian court system after all Sep 01 17:08
MinceR (hu) http://index.hu/politika/belfold/microgvhper0/ Sep 01 17:08
schestowitz :-( http://translate.google.com/transl… Sep 01 17:09
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/24/mic… Sep 01 17:09
schestowitz Can you translate a paragraph or two for me, please? I’ll attribute. Sep 01 17:10
MinceR i don’t know how to translates the names of the authorities involved Sep 01 17:10
MinceR s/tes/te/ Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz It can be a rough translation. Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz I just don’t know what’s happening here. Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz Nothing in English, I think: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u… Sep 01 17:12
MinceR the court of budapest decided it was legal to use the name of microsoft in the public procurement procedure in which they wanted to buy software for 25 million HUF even though a few days earlier the Economic Competition Office decided it was a violation of neutrality of competition Sep 01 17:15
MinceR though this is apparently only a first instance decision Sep 01 17:16
schestowitz Thanks. Sep 01 17:18
schestowitz I’ll post about it. Sep 01 17:18
MinceR np Sep 01 17:23
schestowitz Bear this in mind: … Sep 01 17:25
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008… Sep 01 17:26
schestowitz [Oh, scroll down to the bit abotu Hungary. PJ saw this too.] Sep 01 17:26
MinceR bbl Sep 01 17:32
PetoKraus haha, great! Sep 01 17:33
schestowitz http://www.computerweekly.com/Artic… Microsoft is using AstroTurfers that it hires via LawMedia Group (and possibly others) to attack this deal. Microsoft complains about “anti-competitive” (pot, kettle, black), privacy intrusion (pot, kettle, black) and it hires shills for a fact. Sep 01 17:55
MinceR re Sep 01 17:57
schestowitz What does Microsoft call “fighting Linux”? “Fighting piracy”. Watch this from the news: http://www.networkworld.com/news/200… “But Ndung’u said that the corporation has developed a pricing structure for cyber cafés that requires them to pay US$10 per desktop annually. ” The cafés have moved to GNU/Linux! There were many reports about it. Sep 01 18:01
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zoobab pong Sep 01 18:33
schestowitz Brazil statement: http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/s… Sep 01 18:34
schestowitz China patents (via Andy): v Sep 01 18:35
schestowitz http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2008-… Sep 01 18:35
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schestowitz http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.ex… “albeit reluctantly, re-evaluate our assessment of ISO/IEC,  particularly in its relevance to our various national government  interoperability frameworks.” Sep 01 20:18
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seller_liar hello Sep 01 20:29
seller_liar someone please can help in this situation: Sep 01 20:30
schestowitz Hey, seller_liar. I have news from Brazil Sep 01 20:30
seller_liar http://forum.paldo.org/index.php?a… Sep 01 20:30
*schestowitz looks Sep 01 20:30
seller_liar I see, thanks roy Sep 01 20:30
schestowitz Isn’t the D language a Microsoft one? Sep 01 20:31
schestowitz Vapourware… Sep 01 20:31
seller_liar really Sep 01 20:31
MinceR iirc it isn’t Sep 01 20:31
schestowitz Wait. I’ll check to be sure. Sep 01 20:31
MinceR it’s from Digital Mars Sep 01 20:32
seller_liar yes Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_language Sep 01 20:32
seller_liar exist a free gcc compiler,called gdc Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1159 Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz That’s what had me believe so. Let me reread it now. Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz “D will be a declarative language aimed at non-developers, and will be based on eXtensible Application Markup Language (XAML), sources, who asked not to be named, said.” Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz Blech. Silverblightfish. Sep 01 20:33
seller_liar it’s another d Sep 01 20:33
seller_liar or not Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz I’m not sure yet. Sep 01 20:34
seller_liar because D is a normal language , imperative Sep 01 20:35
schestowitz http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ Sep 01 20:35
schestowitz That’s what I thought. Is Microsoft, brandname-jacking? Well, with a single-letter names, that’s likely. Sep 01 20:35
seller_liar digital mars = ms proxy Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz http://news.cnet.com/Microsoft-sued… Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar The D language is statically typed and compiles directly to machine code. It’s multiparadigm, supporting many programming styles: imperative, object oriented, and metaprogramming Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar intro in digital mars iste Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz It looks like W32. Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar *site Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz Look at their Web site Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz .http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html Sep 01 20:37
schestowitz Hmmm… Sep 01 20:37
schestowitz Maybe Microsoft just ‘extends’ it like it did with Java. Sep 01 20:37
seller_liar but I do not know…. Sep 01 20:38
schestowitz Ben Slivka, Microsoft: “Don’t encourage new, cross-platform Java classes, especially don’t help get great Win 32 implementations written/deployed. [...] Do encourage fragmentation of the Java classlib space.” Sep 01 20:38
seller_liar so digital mars  can be a ms proxy Sep 01 20:39
seller_liar java competitor Sep 01 20:39
seller_liar and about news in Brazil Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz Why use a proxy though? Sep 01 20:40
seller_liar what Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz Brazil has some seniors wanting to give ISO (and Microsoft) the boot. Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?… Sep 01 20:41
schestowitz Smartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg NJ US 0827065.204.18.192FreeBSDApache/2.2.4 FreeBSD mod_ssl/2.2.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7e-p1 DAV/2 PHP/4.4.4 with Suhosin-Patch 1-Aug-2008 Sep 01 20:41
seller_liar smartsoft Sep 01 20:42
MinceR i thought D was not interpreted and as such it was intended to be a competitor to C++, not Java Sep 01 20:43
seller_liar whay mince Sep 01 20:43
seller_liar *why Sep 01 20:43
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_Doug_ hi there … computer nerds with no girlfriend .. :) Sep 01 20:44
MinceR because none of its descriptions have ever mentioned any interpreters Sep 01 20:44
seller_liar yes,but c have a lot of object-oriented tech Sep 01 20:45
seller_liar *d hav a lot , Sep 01 20:45
MinceR benJIman: you said you’d refer me to some info on some currently implemented JIT optimizations Sep 01 20:46
benJIman Ah yes. Sep 01 20:46
MinceR oh, one more reason: the D website keeps comparing it to C++ Sep 01 20:49
seller_liar ok Sep 01 20:50
seller_liar but, why d attacks c++, is just technical comparisions Sep 01 20:51
seller_liar or digital mars have more reasons Sep 01 20:51
seller_liar hey roy ,do you have some link about senior in brazil Sep 01 20:54
schestowitz Hey, _Doug_ Sep 01 20:55
schestowitz http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cg… Sep 01 20:56
benJIman MinceR: http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~rlmw/talks/vms.pdf has some good overview of reasons for using JIT for performance. http://java.sun.com/performance/reference/whitep… has some specific new and interesting optimisations added in java 6, obviously those are only the new ones. There’s a shedload of academic papers on JVM optimisations http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q… I’m trying to find where I boo Sep 01 21:01
*MinceR didn’t know java 6 was out already :) Sep 01 21:01
_Doug_ Roy .. what ? Sep 01 21:02
seller_liar cacao does jit compilation Sep 01 21:02
benJIman MinceR: 7 out in a few months. Sep 01 21:02
_Doug_ Is jit compilation safe over the Internet ? Sep 01 21:05
seller_liar schestowitz: there are a company here called “rede Globo” , the most destructive company in Brazil Sep 01 21:05
seller_liar _Doug_:I do not know doug,but is more fast Sep 01 21:06
MinceR are there any benchmarks how JIT compares to native code with these optimizations? Sep 01 21:06
seller_liar schestowitz, globo has a lot of contracts with ms some time ago Sep 01 21:06
schestowitz benJIman: your mesage got truncated at “I’m trying to find where I boo” Sep 01 21:06
MinceR i see it as “…where I book” Sep 01 21:07
seller_liar MinceR:gcj does fast compilation in native, is very fast Sep 01 21:07
benJIman … interesting explanation of optimistic optimisations in java. Sep 01 21:07
_Doug_ seee ya’ll later .. Sep 01 21:07
schestowitz seller_liar: got articles about it? Even in Portuguese? Sep 01 21:07
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MinceR apparently i was right about truncation on irc being impossible to predict. Sep 01 21:07
benJIman seller_liar: Native != faster. Sep 01 21:07
seller_liar schestowitz:wait Sep 01 21:07
MinceR i’m still waiting to see proof of JIT having surpassed the performance of native code :> Sep 01 21:08
benJIman seller_liar: A JIT enables optimisations to be done later, while more information such as profiling is available, and to try optimisations and fall back to unoptimised version if assertions fial. Sep 01 21:08
schestowitz MinceR: it wasn’t just me then. Pidgin was the cause at times (other people who use it) Sep 01 21:08
seller_liar benJIman: I know ,but native is more fast ,gcj takes a lot of resources to compile, but gentoo users always say that is fast Sep 01 21:08
seller_liar schestowitz:I know Sep 01 21:09
benJIman seller_liar: native is not faster. Sep 01 21:09
MinceR schestowitz: it’s client-independent — there’s a limit on irc message length (512 bytes, iirc), and i suspected that includes at least a prefix the sending client can’t really know Sep 01 21:09
benJIman seller_liar: When you compile ahead of time to native code you lose the possibility to do optimisations later. Sep 01 21:09
MinceR (plus iirc it varies depending on where the receiver is) Sep 01 21:09
seller_liar benJIman:yes Sep 01 21:10
benJIman seller_liar: So about the only thing you might gain on is startup time. Sep 01 21:10
MinceR so theoretically JIT can be faster than native code. we know that Sep 01 21:10
benJIman And in practice. Sep 01 21:10
MinceR where are the benchmarks to show that? Sep 01 21:10
seller_liar schestowitz: I will post globo articles after , I need to go , but see the movie ” beyond citizen kane” Sep 01 21:13
schestowitz seller_liar: have fun. Thanls. Sep 01 21:14
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benJIman MinceR: If you google java benchmarks you will see hundreds, and as you can see you can show pretty much whatever you want with benchmarks depending on what you test. Sep 01 21:17
*MinceR shows that C is still faster then Java. :> Sep 01 21:17
benJIman If you do microbenchmarks that test specific things that java’s JIT optimises then it massively outperforms precompiled versions. If you do macrobenchmarks what are you actually testing? If you do complicated benchmarks have you implemented it the same way in both languages? Sep 01 21:18
MinceR it doesn’t have to be implemented the same way — it has to be implemented in the way that language works best Sep 01 21:19
MinceR and the benchmark should cover a wide spectrum of tasks Sep 01 21:19
benJIman Well one of the most important things about a JIT is that the code doesn’t have to be implemented in the way that is most performant. Sep 01 21:20
MinceR i’d assume a competent programmer aiming for performance in such a comparison. Sep 01 21:20
benJIman Programmer writes idiomatic code, and let’s the JIT worry about turning it into the fastest implementation. Sep 01 21:20
MinceR (since that’s how we aim for performance and that’s what we’re testing) Sep 01 21:21
benJIman Writing for performance will just bite you in the arse when the next version comes along and someone else’s idiomatic code outperforms your performance hacks thanks to JIT improvements. Sep 01 21:21
schestowitz Same in MATLAB (‘on-line’ optimisations). Sep 01 21:21
MinceR i’m still waiting for that next version. Sep 01 21:21
MinceR that’s my whole point. Sep 01 21:21
schestowitz Ok, I’ll do a post about swpats last. I have other posts. :-) Sep 01 21:22
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trmanco http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OpenMalaysia/~3/… Sep 01 22:39
trmanco http://www.computerworld.com/action/a… Sep 01 22:49
schestowitz Thanks. Sep 01 22:54
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    The recommendation of an Intel marriage with Microsoft (even in units that deal mostly with Linux) is an insulting slap across the face of developers employed there; we take a look at recommendations made to IoTG (Intel) by a firm with Microsoft orientation


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