09.02.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 1st, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 11:45 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

ReverseGTR	schestowitz: is the new news posted yet?	Sep 01 00:14
schestowitz	No, not yet. Urgent? I could do it tonight or tomorrow. Your choice.	Sep 01 00:15
ReverseGTR	schestowitz: not really urgent, I was just wondering about the progress	Sep 01 00:15
schestowitz	No progress on it yet. It needs tidying up a bit. I then need to connect it to previous posts so that I needn’t repeat old citations and arguments.	Sep 01 00:16
twitter	Checked out that attack link of yours and found this http://blogbeebe.blogspot.co…	Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz	Yes. He did these before…	Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz	Groklaw gives him the kick.	Sep 01 00:49
schestowitz	He backed O’Gara and the spaying on PJ.	Sep 01 00:50
twitter	Quotes “Fucker T. Washington”, obvious troll.	Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz	I’m off to bed now.	Sep 01 00:50
twitter	night night	Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR	cya	Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz	Yes, a recist racist troll	Sep 01 00:50
schestowitz	*racist	Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR	and keep’em coming	Sep 01 00:50
ReverseGTR	lol yea, hence why less folks will take that rant seriously	Sep 01 00:51
ReverseGTR	and what does he or she know about exposing misdeeds?	Sep 01 00:51
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twitter	Nice round up of astroturf groups.	Sep 01 14:38
schestowitz	Old news though; good for future referencing, e.g. when ACT comes up.	Sep 01 14:40
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schestowitz	FAA runs Windows. Check the latest: http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir…	Sep 01 15:10
schestowitz	The Snyder article has made Slashdot < http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/08… >. Since the guy like to sling mud at Linux, I believe his hidden message in this case is that there’s no money in GNU/Linux. It’s a form of FUD, which he backs using studies from The 451 Group. The first comment is interesting too.	Sep 01 15:28
schestowitz	Reader says “Microsoft Jack trashing Apple again”: http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/tech…	Sep 01 15:32
twitter	Windows is no longer mentioned in that FAA article. Did you save the text?	Sep 01 16:02
schestowitz	Which article?	Sep 01 16:03
twitter	http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news…	Sep 01 16:03
schestowitz	http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.li…	Sep 01 16:04
twitter	Nice work.	Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz	I did mine too: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.li…	Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz	BTW, I’m separating these from large threads because Microsoft Munchkins hijack them and spread libel.	Sep 01 16:06
trmanco	http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news…	Sep 01 16:06
trmanco	this one almost got me	Sep 01 16:06
schestowitz	Yeah, I gave up after the opening when I saw it hours ago.	Sep 01 16:07
twitter	Power just failed, battery won’t last long, have to see you later ….	Sep 01 16:10
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schestowitz	Banter at the Inquirer. You can tell what to skip based on writers.	Sep 01 16:11
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MinceR	apparently Monkey Boy managed to buy the hungarian court system after all	Sep 01 17:08
MinceR	(hu) http://index.hu/politika/belfold/microgvhper0/	Sep 01 17:08
schestowitz	http://translate.google.com/transl…	Sep 01 17:09
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/24/mic…	Sep 01 17:09
schestowitz	Can you translate a paragraph or two for me, please? I’ll attribute.	Sep 01 17:10
MinceR	i don’t know how to translates the names of the authorities involved	Sep 01 17:10
MinceR	s/tes/te/	Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz	It can be a rough translation.	Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz	I just don’t know what’s happening here.	Sep 01 17:11
schestowitz	Nothing in English, I think: http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=u…	Sep 01 17:12
MinceR	the court of budapest decided it was legal to use the name of microsoft in the public procurement procedure in which they wanted to buy software for 25 million HUF even though a few days earlier the Economic Competition Office decided it was a violation of neutrality of competition	Sep 01 17:15
MinceR	though this is apparently only a first instance decision	Sep 01 17:16
schestowitz	Thanks.	Sep 01 17:18
schestowitz	I’ll post about it.	Sep 01 17:18
MinceR	np	Sep 01 17:23
schestowitz	Bear this in mind: …	Sep 01 17:25
schestowitz	http://boycottnovell.com/2008…	Sep 01 17:26
schestowitz	[Oh, scroll down to the bit abotu Hungary. PJ saw this too.]	Sep 01 17:26
MinceR	bbl	Sep 01 17:32
PetoKraus	haha, great!	Sep 01 17:33
schestowitz	http://www.computerweekly.com/Artic… Microsoft is using AstroTurfers that it hires via LawMedia Group (and possibly others) to attack this deal. Microsoft complains about “anti-competitive” (pot, kettle, black), privacy intrusion (pot, kettle, black) and it hires shills for a fact.	Sep 01 17:55
MinceR	re	Sep 01 17:57
schestowitz	What does Microsoft call “fighting Linux”? “Fighting piracy”. Watch this from the news: http://www.networkworld.com/news/200… “But Ndung’u said that the corporation has developed a pricing structure for cyber cafés that requires them to pay US$10 per desktop annually. ” The cafés have moved to GNU/Linux! There were many reports about it.	Sep 01 18:01
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zoobab	pong	Sep 01 18:33
schestowitz	Brazil statement: http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.exe/s…	Sep 01 18:34
schestowitz	China patents (via Andy): v	Sep 01 18:35
schestowitz	http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2008-…	Sep 01 18:35
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schestowitz	http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cgilua.ex… “albeit reluctantly, re-evaluate our assessment of ISO/IEC, particularly in its relevance to our various national government interoperability frameworks.”	Sep 01 20:18
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seller_liar	hello	Sep 01 20:29
seller_liar	someone please can help in this situation:	Sep 01 20:30
schestowitz	Hey, seller_liar. I have news from Brazil	Sep 01 20:30
seller_liar	http://forum.paldo.org/index.php?a…	Sep 01 20:30
*schestowitz looks		Sep 01 20:30
seller_liar	I see, thanks roy	Sep 01 20:30
schestowitz	Isn’t the D language a Microsoft one?	Sep 01 20:31
schestowitz	Vapourware…	Sep 01 20:31
seller_liar	really	Sep 01 20:31
MinceR	iirc it isn’t	Sep 01 20:31
schestowitz	Wait. I’ll check to be sure.	Sep 01 20:31
MinceR	it’s from Digital Mars	Sep 01 20:32
seller_liar	yes	Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_language	Sep 01 20:32
seller_liar	exist a free gcc compiler,called gdc	Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz	http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1159	Sep 01 20:32
schestowitz	That’s what had me believe so. Let me reread it now.	Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz	“D will be a declarative language aimed at non-developers, and will be based on eXtensible Application Markup Language (XAML), sources, who asked not to be named, said.”	Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz	Blech. Silverblightfish.	Sep 01 20:33
seller_liar	it’s another d	Sep 01 20:33
seller_liar	or not	Sep 01 20:33
schestowitz	I’m not sure yet.	Sep 01 20:34
seller_liar	because D is a normal language , imperative	Sep 01 20:35
schestowitz	http://www.digitalmars.com/d/	Sep 01 20:35
schestowitz	That’s what I thought. Is Microsoft, brandname-jacking? Well, with a single-letter names, that’s likely.	Sep 01 20:35
seller_liar	digital mars = ms proxy	Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz	http://news.cnet.com/Microsoft-sued…	Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar	The D language is statically typed and compiles directly to machine code. It’s multiparadigm, supporting many programming styles: imperative, object oriented, and metaprogramming	Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar	intro in digital mars iste	Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz	It looks like W32.	Sep 01 20:36
seller_liar	*site	Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz	Look at their Web site	Sep 01 20:36
schestowitz	.http://www.digitalmars.com/d/download.html	Sep 01 20:37
schestowitz	Hmmm…	Sep 01 20:37
schestowitz	Maybe Microsoft just ‘extends’ it like it did with Java.	Sep 01 20:37
seller_liar	but I do not know….	Sep 01 20:38
schestowitz	Ben Slivka, Microsoft: “Don’t encourage new, cross-platform Java classes, especially don’t help get great Win 32 implementations written/deployed. [...] Do encourage fragmentation of the Java classlib space.”	Sep 01 20:38
seller_liar	so digital mars can be a ms proxy	Sep 01 20:39
seller_liar	java competitor	Sep 01 20:39
seller_liar	and about news in Brazil	Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz	Why use a proxy though?	Sep 01 20:40
seller_liar	what	Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz	Brazil has some seniors wanting to give ISO (and Microsoft) the boot.	Sep 01 20:40
schestowitz	http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?…	Sep 01 20:41
schestowitz	Smartsoft, LLC 88 Petersburg Road Petersburg NJ US 0827065.204.18.192FreeBSDApache/2.2.4 FreeBSD mod_ssl/2.2.4 OpenSSL/0.9.7e-p1 DAV/2 PHP/4.4.4 with Suhosin-Patch 1-Aug-2008	Sep 01 20:41
seller_liar	smartsoft	Sep 01 20:42
MinceR	i thought D was not interpreted and as such it was intended to be a competitor to C++, not Java	Sep 01 20:43
seller_liar	whay mince	Sep 01 20:43
seller_liar	*why	Sep 01 20:43
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_Doug_	hi there … computer nerds with no girlfriend ..	Sep 01 20:44
MinceR	because none of its descriptions have ever mentioned any interpreters	Sep 01 20:44
seller_liar	yes,but c have a lot of object-oriented tech	Sep 01 20:45
seller_liar	*d hav a lot ,	Sep 01 20:45
MinceR	benJIman: you said you’d refer me to some info on some currently implemented JIT optimizations	Sep 01 20:46
benJIman	Ah yes.	Sep 01 20:46
MinceR	oh, one more reason: the D website keeps comparing it to C++	Sep 01 20:49
seller_liar	ok	Sep 01 20:50
seller_liar	but, why d attacks c++, is just technical comparisions	Sep 01 20:51
seller_liar	or digital mars have more reasons	Sep 01 20:51
seller_liar	hey roy ,do you have some link about senior in brazil	Sep 01 20:54
schestowitz	Hey, _Doug_	Sep 01 20:55
schestowitz	http://www.convergenciadigital.com.br/cgi/cg…	Sep 01 20:56
benJIman	MinceR: http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~rlmw/talks/vms.pdf has some good overview of reasons for using JIT for performance. http://java.sun.com/performance/reference/whitep… has some specific new and interesting optimisations added in java 6, obviously those are only the new ones. There’s a shedload of academic papers on JVM optimisations http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q… I’m trying to find where I boo	Sep 01 21:01
*MinceR didn’t know java 6 was out already		Sep 01 21:01
_Doug_	Roy .. what ?	Sep 01 21:02
seller_liar	cacao does jit compilation	Sep 01 21:02
benJIman	MinceR: 7 out in a few months.	Sep 01 21:02
_Doug_	Is jit compilation safe over the Internet ?	Sep 01 21:05
seller_liar	schestowitz: there are a company here called “rede Globo” , the most destructive company in Brazil	Sep 01 21:05
seller_liar	_Doug_:I do not know doug,but is more fast	Sep 01 21:06
MinceR	are there any benchmarks how JIT compares to native code with these optimizations?	Sep 01 21:06
seller_liar	schestowitz, globo has a lot of contracts with ms some time ago	Sep 01 21:06
schestowitz	benJIman: your mesage got truncated at “I’m trying to find where I boo”	Sep 01 21:06
MinceR	i see it as “…where I book”	Sep 01 21:07
seller_liar	MinceR:gcj does fast compilation in native, is very fast	Sep 01 21:07
benJIman	… interesting explanation of optimistic optimisations in java.	Sep 01 21:07
_Doug_	seee ya’ll later ..	Sep 01 21:07
schestowitz	seller_liar: got articles about it? Even in Portuguese?	Sep 01 21:07
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MinceR	apparently i was right about truncation on irc being impossible to predict.	Sep 01 21:07
benJIman	seller_liar: Native != faster.	Sep 01 21:07
seller_liar	schestowitz:wait	Sep 01 21:07
MinceR	i’m still waiting to see proof of JIT having surpassed the performance of native code :>	Sep 01 21:08
benJIman	seller_liar: A JIT enables optimisations to be done later, while more information such as profiling is available, and to try optimisations and fall back to unoptimised version if assertions fial.	Sep 01 21:08
schestowitz	MinceR: it wasn’t just me then. Pidgin was the cause at times (other people who use it)	Sep 01 21:08
seller_liar	benJIman: I know ,but native is more fast ,gcj takes a lot of resources to compile, but gentoo users always say that is fast	Sep 01 21:08
seller_liar	schestowitz:I know	Sep 01 21:09
benJIman	seller_liar: native is not faster.	Sep 01 21:09
MinceR	schestowitz: it’s client-independent — there’s a limit on irc message length (512 bytes, iirc), and i suspected that includes at least a prefix the sending client can’t really know	Sep 01 21:09
benJIman	seller_liar: When you compile ahead of time to native code you lose the possibility to do optimisations later.	Sep 01 21:09
MinceR	(plus iirc it varies depending on where the receiver is)	Sep 01 21:09
seller_liar	benJIman:yes	Sep 01 21:10
benJIman	seller_liar: So about the only thing you might gain on is startup time.	Sep 01 21:10
MinceR	so theoretically JIT can be faster than native code. we know that	Sep 01 21:10
benJIman	And in practice.	Sep 01 21:10
MinceR	where are the benchmarks to show that?	Sep 01 21:10
seller_liar	schestowitz: I will post globo articles after , I need to go , but see the movie ” beyond citizen kane”	Sep 01 21:13
schestowitz	seller_liar: have fun. Thanls.	Sep 01 21:14
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benJIman	MinceR: If you google java benchmarks you will see hundreds, and as you can see you can show pretty much whatever you want with benchmarks depending on what you test.	Sep 01 21:17
*MinceR shows that C is still faster then Java. :>		Sep 01 21:17
benJIman	If you do microbenchmarks that test specific things that java’s JIT optimises then it massively outperforms precompiled versions. If you do macrobenchmarks what are you actually testing? If you do complicated benchmarks have you implemented it the same way in both languages?	Sep 01 21:18
MinceR	it doesn’t have to be implemented the same way — it has to be implemented in the way that language works best	Sep 01 21:19
MinceR	and the benchmark should cover a wide spectrum of tasks	Sep 01 21:19
benJIman	Well one of the most important things about a JIT is that the code doesn’t have to be implemented in the way that is most performant.	Sep 01 21:20
MinceR	i’d assume a competent programmer aiming for performance in such a comparison.	Sep 01 21:20
benJIman	Programmer writes idiomatic code, and let’s the JIT worry about turning it into the fastest implementation.	Sep 01 21:20
MinceR	(since that’s how we aim for performance and that’s what we’re testing)	Sep 01 21:21
benJIman	Writing for performance will just bite you in the arse when the next version comes along and someone else’s idiomatic code outperforms your performance hacks thanks to JIT improvements.	Sep 01 21:21
schestowitz	Same in MATLAB (‘on-line’ optimisations).	Sep 01 21:21
MinceR	i’m still waiting for that next version.	Sep 01 21:21
MinceR	that’s my whole point.	Sep 01 21:21
schestowitz	Ok, I’ll do a post about swpats last. I have other posts.	Sep 01 21:22
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trmanco	http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OpenMalaysia/~3/…	Sep 01 22:39
trmanco	http://www.computerworld.com/action/a…	Sep 01 22:49
schestowitz	Thanks.	Sep 01 22:54
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