12.14.08
Gemini version available ♊︎Stop Press: Novell Critics Are Not Religious Fanatics
Shock, horror!
SUSE sites and blogs are always a tad suspicious because Novell has its share of boosters [1, 2]. Here is a revealing new confession from the community leader of OpenSUSE, who is also a paid booster with some blogs (Microsoft has some too [1, 2]).
With open source projects, every contributor and every user is a potential source and they don’t have to be vetted by corporate PR first. For instance, with the openSUSE Project we have had board members and other contributors and users quoted (and blogging) about openSUSE and will again in the future.
It was a little amusing to find this Novell-sympathetic post in a blog which sports OpenSUSE banners. It praises Novell for contributions, starting with Poisonware like Mono and Moonlight. This is reminiscent of Crismon’s blog, which clogs up some social networking sites with Novell/SUSE ‘marketing’.
“A word like “crusade” (religious connotation) is an insult to those who defend their rights and basic freedom.”Back to that first blog, there is another new rant there which defends Novell from ‘crusaders’.
A word like “crusade” (religious connotation) is an insult to those who defend their rights and basic freedom. It’s not a case against Microsoft either, but Microsoft happens to be the company that attacks digital Freedom the most, whereas others giants like IBM and Sun try to live in harmony with it and even embrace some of it. Since when are activists for freedom “crusaders”?
Were women who fought for equality “crusaders”? Did they carry a cross?
Did people who fight against slavery do something ‘religious’? That’s the crux of the matter.
Are people who (still) fight for racial equality do it on grounds of religion or based on descent?
So please… enough with words like “zealots”, “crusaders” and “fanatics” to marginalise those whom you disagree with. Fighting with labels is easy [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]. Microsoft and the MAFIAA (daemonisation name) have their reasons for calling customers “pirates” and naming kill switches “Genuine Advantage”. There are many examples just like that (“trusted computing”, “digital rights management” and so forth).
Debate with messages, not with words. █
“A Jihad is a road trip. in which an evangelist visits a large number of ISVs one-on-one to convince them to take some specific action. The classic Jihad is one focused on getting Tier A ISVs to commit to supporting a given technology by signing the technology’s Letter of Agreement (LOA – see above).
“A Jihad focuses on the Travelling Salesman aspect of evangelism. As in sales, the purpose of the exercise is to close – to get the mark the ISV to sign on the dotted line, in pen, irrevocably. Not to get back to us later, not to talk to the wife about it, not to enter a three-day cooling-off period, but to get the ISV to sign, sign, sign.”
–Microsoft, internal document [PDF]
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Andrea said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:39 am
you are stupid, crazy ecc ecc
freedom exist when i can choose for FREE, and i choose to use suse i don’t care about your stupid stuffs.. i really appreciate novell work, and i can ear no more you stupid words if you touch my friends.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:46 am
You are confusing choice and freedom.
“A choice of masters is not freedom [...] The ethical and political issues are not addressed by the slogan of “freedom of choice (for developers only)”.”
aeshna23 said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:46 am
You have bought an image of the Crusades that is false. After 400 years of muslim aggression including much conversion by sword, rape and enslavment of Christians, the Christians fighting back and having the Crusades was an excellent idea. If only they would have just fought back! Instead, it was often easier for them to kill each other or the Jews, and that was what wrong with the Crusades–not their desire to stand against Islamic aggression. In other words, it was really there lack of fanaticism about the Crusade project itself that was the problem with the Crusades.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:49 am
Still, the implication of aggression does not fit one of peaceful protest in defence of rights.
Andrea said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:51 am
@ Roy Schestowitz
the choice is mine, and why boycott novell and not canonical?
is ubuntu tha tprovides kernel modules that not rispect GPL not suse ecc ecc
so please stop to tell stupid things, and spend your time to do something usell (you may want to find a job go to work)
Robynica said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:11 am
Thanks for linking Crismon’s Blog, we are a new project so we do need publicity!
Thanks again!
See You!
Robynica said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:17 am
Ah…sorry but as I already told You once, you are really fanatic…tired to read your articles, try to change topic or words sometime otherwise you will result absolutely boring…Bye
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:24 am
Coming from a SUSE blog, why am I now surprised by the use of words like “fanatic”?
Robynica said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:29 am
I remind You that I was not the first person who used the word “fantatic”. The reason why I wrote such a word is pretty clear. Even If I talk about something totally different from Suse (firefox, kde 4, ecc ecc ecc) There is always SOMEBODY who comments my articles telling that Novell is against open source ecc ecc ecc. That is fanatism because we talk also about linux in general, not only about opensuse. And even If I talked only about OpenSUSE, what’s wrong with that? I don’t like people who like criticism without thinking of the fact that we can have different opinions…tha’s fanatism.
Bye
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:33 am
Your use of these words proves the very hypothesis of this post.
fanatic
“a person whose strong admiration for something is considered to be extreme or unreasonable”
Is it not reasonable to defend one’s rights? Are feminists fanatics? Was Rosa Parks a fanatic?
Robynica said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:40 am
The reason why I’m writing here is your link to my blog, If you try to have a look on http://www.mixx.com “robynica83pa@yahoo.com” you can observe that there is SOMEBODY who always comments avery single article voting no and writing the same stupid stuff. You can notice also from my words there that I’m not fanatic at all because I defend people’s right to have opinion. You are not better than Microsoft or Novell because you dont’ respect people and their thoughts. On the contrary I never ever ever comment what this person writes because I am not interested at all in what he says. So it demonstrates my thesis, I’m not fanatic because I accept the fact that you don’t like suse, novell or whatever, while you don’t respet my choice or people’s opinions…pure fanatism.
You can go on commenting here, that’s my last post.
Bye
jo Shields said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:42 am
Tee hee. He has a point, Roy. You vehemently disagree with “freedom of choice”, even where Freedom is concerned (your hatred of OpenSuse for the crime of not being Linux fr’example)
jo Shields said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:43 am
Gah, OpenSolaris
Too many Opens
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:46 am
@Robynica,
I noticed these links in Mixx some time ago, but I have no idea who CyberPhoenix is. He used to be in Digg before he got banned.
Judge my attitude not based on how other people present it. You are welcome to make your personal judgment, but please don’t pass your opinion about me based on other people’s actions.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:46 am
jo Shields,
I hate OpenSUSE??? OpenSolaris???
Really???
jo Shields said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:53 am
Sure. Try http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/06/attack-then-hijack-two-face/ for a series of anti-OpenSolaris posts.
Here’s a choice quote:
You believe, quite clearly, in single routes to computing. In absence of choice. In monopolies
Robynica said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:55 am
@ Roy Schestowitz
I didn’t know that CyberPhoenix is not part of this website because he always link Your articles. Think about my situation, I know Your website and even if my blog is about OpenSUSE I never ever ever linked you or criticised your articles because I respect the fact that you can think differently from me.
Bye
Crismon said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:56 am
Hi,
Nowadays “freedom” is a big and illusion dream.
Nowadays People are not free to act or think in any case. Think about the fact that for example a person is not free not even to commit suicide (ironically speaking) so that is no point to criticize Novell, we should start to think about worse realities
Sorry but this is a reality.
I accept your opinion but I desagree with you
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:59 am
@jo Shields:
Preference is not an “attack”. It is a preference.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 10:00 am
Robynica,
He modifies headlines and stalks you. I don’t defend this. This makes the site look aggressive, which it is not.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 10:06 am
@Crismon:
Yes, I agree with you 100%. When The Free Software movement/GNU project began, to RMS it was intended to secure and accomplish other goals like freedom of speech and better society (these goals predate computing).
We face more barriers than just thought/mind monopolies (software patents), even NSA-’enhanced’ (back doors) and RIAA-’enhanced’ (DRM) binary prisons.
jo Shields said,
December 14, 2008 at 10:22 am
But saying “It’s not what I like, that makes it bad, I want it to fail” is not preference. Especially given the drooling idiots who take you at face value.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 10:25 am
I don’t want OpenSolaris to fail.
Josh Bell said,
December 14, 2008 at 12:28 pm
But do you want other companies to fail? Novell for instance. Perhaps I am wrong but usuallly boycotts want to formulate some change and pressure companies into making that change. For example boycotting Nike because they use sweat shops for instance. Would you Roy, accept Novell as a good GPL citizen if they would back out of the patent part of the agreement or the is the only good solution a failed company. If your ultimate goal is failed companies then this site is no longer a boycott site.
Diamond Wakizashi said,
December 14, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Microsoft subsidiary Novell will soon be excreting another nasty little pile of ant-open source called “OpenSUSE 11.1″, avoid it.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 1:59 pm
John Bell,
OpenSUSE/SuSE was the best distro in 2005, IMHO (I used Ubuntu at my work office, SUSE at the university office and SUSE at home), but in order to restore a lead they’ll need to fork out of Microsoft/Novell. It’s bound to get worse.
Chris said,
December 14, 2008 at 2:48 pm
You know, the funny part about that statement is that the develpers as well as the users are pretty happy with the current situation. In fact there aren´t many people that have a big problem with the Microsoft Novell deal who actually contribute to FOSS.
So its probably up to you and your shills to fork openSUSE (according to your definition it´s as easy as applying one single patch since go-oo is a fork and Novell forked the kernel …) but we all know that this will never happen since it would mean that you had to do something productive …
However, just in case, please let us know as soon as “Boynux” 1.0 is available. I surely will try it just to have a good laugh.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 14, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Words are cheap. Please produce proof (not the crooked and sleazy lies that Microsoft and Novell manufactured).
G. Michaels said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:09 pm
What a coincidence, someone who promotes this blog is being rude and stalking people somewhere else? That’s certainly a first.
Oh wait: http://slashdot.org/~SockDisclosure/journal/214377
That’s your friend and collaborator, ‘twitter’, correct? So now this ‘CyberPhoenix’ (probably just another nym) is on mixx harassing people? It’s just a huge coincidence, is it not.
And to stay on topic… I don’t know why people are even arguing about this. All one needs to do is look at Roy’s IRC logs to see the extremism oozing out into what eventually makes it to the front page. I don’t know about the ‘religious’ thing, which was probably used on purpose as a negative reinforcement (clever), but the extremism is there for sure. Do you have a paying job? Have you ever been within 10,000 miles of Seattle, WA? Do you not think that Free Software is perfect and the answer to all of man’s problems? Well then, you’re obviously on Microsoft’s payroll.
You’re going to end up marking everyone’s posts with silly red text Roy. People will eventually figure out what’s happening, no matter what you do.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
G. Michaels said,
December 14, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Oh, and the Sock Disclosure Journal was updated yesterday. I hadn’t noticed
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Dan O'Brian said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:34 pm
twitter’s got 15 +an additional 26 accounts on slashdot now?
How many accounts is this guy going to create?
Dan O'Brian said,
December 14, 2008 at 9:36 pm
make that 16 + a suspected 25 more since the wiIIyhiII account has been tied to twitter.
Josh Bell said,
December 14, 2008 at 11:01 pm
Ahh Roy, you didn’t really answer the question. The question was if Novell were to back out of the patent part of the MS deal would they be a good GPL citizen?
Your answer is
If I interpret this correctly Novell has to fail. OpenSuSe/SuSe can continue if it is forked.
I use Ubuntu and CentOS as well at home and think they are great products. I happen to use OES2 and SLES at work.
G. Michaels said,
December 15, 2008 at 2:03 am
Apparently, as many as necessary to make sure Slashdot is not gamed
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 3:52 am
Weird, I thought it was us writing willyhill?
Oh, but wait, no – it’s not us signing into IRC as willhill.
I don’t doubt twitter is a few people here either.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:01 am
We typically have 10-30 people in IRC at any given time. Your obsession with one is them is chronic. The only ones writing here are me and Shane, but you’d rather do ‘background check’ on each person among the hundreds who are in the IRC channel. Pathetic.
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:08 am
@Roy: it becomes relevant when you publish what accusations your IRC participants make on your website. “Only ones writing here” then becomes anyone who wishes to start ad hominem attacks on IRC, knowing that you’re going to publish it word-for-word.
I couldn’t care less who twitter is, or what he gets up to on Slashdot, but when he starts making accusations against me – which both you and I know are totally false – I take notice.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:22 am
AlexH,
As you will notice in my posts, where other people contribute something, it’s stated explicitly or put in quotation marks. I’m a fan of attribution and I have dozens of people sending me tips, suggestions and opinions. I’m sure you could find flaws in some of these sources (probably things I’m not aware of), but to use that against the site is a stretch.
Since you can’t attack me as a messenger, you’re looking for other people to point the finger at.
Jo Shields said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:32 am
You’re easy to attack as a messenger, Roy. You keep making things up, for one thing.
If your message could stand on its own, you wouldn’t need to lie.
If your message were consistent and directed, people wouldn’t use a site with “Novell” in the name as a source of info on Microsoft issues.
If you weren’t holding the leash of your “team” (you told me off for suggesting a more passive “groupie” role), then there wouldn’t be explicit evidence that you’re the one sending THEM on stalker missions.
I don’t doubt the extent to which you believe in the righteousness of your campaign, Roy. But your credibility is zero when you feel the need to resort to deception, doublespeak, demagogy, and lies. You’re the proverbial boy who cried wolf – why should anyone believe you, even when you ARE right, when so much of what you do is founded on lies?
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:36 am
@Roy: putting things in quotes doesn’t absolve you of anything. Here’s a very simple overview.
When you repeat personal remarks other people make, that doesn’t make you “the messenger”, it makes you the person making the remarks.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:40 am
Who said anything about libel?
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:41 am
That’s what false accusations are, Roy, they’re libel.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:51 am
Your complaint was about people, not content. You’re changing eh subject.
G. Michaels said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:52 am
Uh… you’re publishing them on the site.
Anyway, like you and your friends like to say, I know I’m on the right track when your nyms start accusing me of having nyms, they whine about evidence following them around, and you start tagging my posts. If this was some sort of a competition, that means I’m winning!
I bet your head hurts Roy, when twitter starts theorizing about who is a sockpuppet of whom. That just cracks me up.
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 4:54 am
Y’all give Slashdot a bad name (you too). It just reminds me why I don’t read it anymore.
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:00 am
@Roy: no, my complaint wasn’t about people – it never is.
As I said, I don’t care who twitter is. I do take notice of his accusations against me (and others), that you publish on this site.
Your “don’t shoot the messenger” defence is a very transparent attempt to shift liability, and it doesn’t work. By publishing, you’re the one making the remark, so don’t be under the illusion that you’re somehow not responsible.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:03 am
Please provide an example where I quote something libelous.
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:14 am
Any time someone on IRC makes a statement and you copy the logs here. Tens of examples right there.
G. Michaels said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:23 am
Uh… every other post you make to your blog is peppered with “…someone just mentioned on IRC…”
Note: writer of this comment adds absolutely nothing but stalking and personal attacks against readers, as documented here.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:27 am
AlexH, that’s no different from site forums.
AlexH said,
December 15, 2008 at 5:30 am
@Roy: that’s precisely my point.
Dan O'Brian said,
December 15, 2008 at 9:19 am
Roy, had you read the link AlexH pointed you at:
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 15, 2008 at 9:25 am
It has been the subject of much discussion, which I have been following. Groklaw uses rel=”nofollow” to prevent comments from being indexed, but nothing is perfect. These laws can easily be (mis)used to impede free speech. Not everything is black and white.
Speaking of which, the biggest of Web sites make horrible mistakes that I see all the time. They don’t ever bother correcting these.
Reputation is sometimes mistaken for obedience.
Paul Gaskin said,
December 16, 2008 at 10:39 pm
I support Roy Schestowitz for having the inquisitiveness and persistence to uncover the dirty deals of an oppressive monopoly in the software software business.
If not for Roy, there wouldn’t be as much resistance to Microsoft’s attempts to hijack Free and Open Source software.
Thank goodness not everyone’s opinions are for sale.
Dan O'Brian said,
December 16, 2008 at 11:45 pm
If he had inquisitiveness, he would read the articles he links to rather than drawing conclusions from thin air. He’d also try to be objective, but he’s not. He’s not trying to uncover the truth of anything, he’s trying to dig up dirt on companies, projects and people he doesn’t like. If he can’t find it, he makes it up by perverting the “facts”.
Puh-lease. All he’s done is rally a lynch mob of people who already hated Microsoft.
Yea, because clearly everyone who disagrees with you must have been bought, right?
Typical of Roy’s cult followers – if someone doesn’t agree with you guys, they must be paid shills.
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 3:23 am
+1
What Dan said.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 4:11 am
I wonder if many hecklers follow this Web site, or maybe they are just more vocal than the rest. I suspect the latter is true…
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 6:08 am
you are being damn impolite. whoever doesn’t agree with you is a shill, bought, a heckler, a troll. now that says more about you than about them
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 6:10 am
Max,
You’re here just to disrupt. Some people would call it “trolling”.
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 6:18 am
disrupt? disrupt what? a constant flow of yay-sayers? i disagree with you. I disagree strongly with everything you write and more im’tly with the WAY you tell it. i think you are a devious demagogue and that you think you are writing this to promote Linux is the worst of it
if you find this ‘disrupting’, then I hope it disrupts your smug, walled-in, hate-filled ignorance
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 6:35 am
Do you also buy the newspaper you disagree with the most?
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 7:08 am
don’t YOU comment everywhere on everything you don’t agree with unbidden?
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 7:12 am
Not really, unless it’s a site that I subscribe to because I like it. If someone I agree with makes a mistake, then I will raise an issue because I care.
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 7:28 am
then you LIKE a lot of sites and agree with a lot of people that have a different opinion of that. OK then I LIKE your site because it helps get up my blood pressure. and i AGREE with you because i also think linux is great. and i RAISE AN ISSUE where you stumled and went wrong
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 7:45 am
See, that’s the difference between me and you… I dumped many feeds that were unhelpful to my blood pressure. Try that too, it’ll make you live better.
Jo Shields said,
December 17, 2008 at 8:56 am
The problem, kowalski, is that BN has reached troll critical mass. It doesn’t matter how many people point out lies & fabrications & inconsistencies etc etc etc – there are enough people feeding back those same things in and out of the comments (note how much self-reference there is) that the site is completely self-sustaining.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:03 am
Jo,
There are accidental errors in each Web site. Why do you target us?
To give new examples, Wall Street Journal is shamed for FUD:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=33615
NBC is also vilified:
http://www.prwatch.org/node/8069
Jo Shields said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:05 am
Because WSJ doesn’t deliberately lie about ME and projects I am involved with.
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:07 am
So according to you, BN is bad because it covers things that apply to your work and do not align with your point of view.
Jo Shields said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:20 am
No, see, way to misrepresent my position.
AGAIN.
BN is bad for a plethora of reasons. The specific one I’m talking about here is the use of demagogy and fabrication to support a point.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH PEOPLE DISAGREEING WITH ME, INCLUDING ON THE TOPIC OF MONO. I’ve had interesting chats with people I respect who hold an opposing viewpoint. But they, unlike you, are capable of presenting their concerns and complaints without demagogy. We agree to disagree, respectfully.
That is not possible on BN, or with its ardent supporters. There is no respect, because on one side any disagreement is characterized – as pointed out by MANY people other than me – as part of some grand conspiracy involving bribes. On the other side, the detachment from reality breeds nothing but mockery. It’s unhealthy, and distracts from the core issues you purport to represent.
So, here it is again. Disagreeing with Mono, Novell, etc, is fine. Debate is good. BN is not debate or good, it’s built on constant lies & demagogy
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:24 am
There was never an accusation of bribe, just vested interests.
Jo Shields said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:27 am
A term you love because it has no set meaning – and anything vague is a get-out clause when you’re confronted with it.
I’m not talking about myself, I’m talking generally. EVERYONE who disagrees with you on your little blog is characterized as a shill, an employee of one of the companies you’re in the mood to moan about, or similar. Nobody could possibly disagree with you unless their very livelihoods depend on disagreeing, right Roy?
Roy Schestowitz said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:42 am
No, not true. I debate this issue of Mono with quite a few people.
kowalski said,
December 17, 2008 at 9:57 am
i also see that on boycottnovell roy is lying on purpose. that has been quite ugly how he tries some character-assasination with jo and that president of the GNOME foundation wassis name. ugly ugly