12.29.08

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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: December 28th, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:01 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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Enter the IRC channel now

MinceR gn Dec 28 02:27
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mib_rl8vja hola Dec 28 02:55
tessier mib_rl8vja: hola. que pasa? Dec 28 03:05
mib_rl8vja not much just hanging out Dec 28 03:09
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schestowitz http://www.stallman.org/archives/20… “Mike Connell, formerly Karl Rove’s chief IT consultant, died in an airplane “accident”. He was going to testify about illegally deleted emails and vote-stealing in 2004.” Dec 28 07:49
tessier As a pilot I’d like to know more about that. Dec 28 08:55
tessier Odds are it was an accident though Dec 28 08:55
tessier It would be hard to stage an accident with an airplane. They do a pretty good investigation. I the plane were sabotaged it would likely be found out. Dec 28 08:56
schestowitz Dr. Kelly.. Dec 28 08:57
tessier ? Dec 28 09:07
schestowitz http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_po… Dec 28 09:09
schestowitz http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=vi… “The British media has become embroiled in yet another set of distortions regarding the death of British government weapons inspector Dr. David Kelly in July 2003. Kelly died in mysterious circumstances in the woods near his home in Oxfordshire.” Dec 28 09:09
schestowitz “Kelly was Britain’s foremost expert on biological weapons, with direct access to WMD intelligence on Iraq. In the months leading up to his death, he had become increasingly skeptical regarding Iraq’s alleged WMDs. “It was Dr Kelly who exposed claims by President George Bush, Tony Blair and Colin Powell that mobile biological warfare units had been found in Iraq as false.” (Independent, 25 July 2003)” Dec 28 09:10
schestowitz ‘According to the Hutton inquiry report:      “Dr Kelly took his own life… [T]he principal cause of death was bleeding from incised wounds to his left wrist which Dr Kelly had inflicted on himself with the knife found beside his body”. ‘ Dec 28 09:10
tessier Sounds like he had already squeeled. Why kill him then? Dec 28 09:10
tessier And did he make the cuts down or across? Dec 28 09:10
schestowitz I’m not suggesting it Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz That’s just a top result that came up in Google Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz Not that I look at it though, I wonder, “what kind of an idiot kills self with a knife? Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz What is this, like falling on one’s sword? Dec 28 09:11
schestowitz “The inquiry led by Lord Hutton pointed to “suicide” as the cause of death, in contradiction with the results of the autopsy. “Suicide was never proved, either by the Coroner or Lord Hutton, as required by law”. (See Dr. Stephen Frost, et al, Global Research, 28 November 2006)  “ Dec 28 09:12
schestowitz http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2004/jan/2… “David Kelly told the BBC that it could take Saddam Hussein “days or weeks” to mobilise weapons of mass destruction, not the 45 minutes claimed in the government’s Iraq weapons dossier.” Dec 28 09:14
schestowitz Well, if only they /HAD/ WoMD Dec 28 09:14
schestowitz IIRC, they only had means for producing some, but no weapons. Dec 28 09:15
MinceR geekings Dec 28 10:19
schestowitz The Enderle shill is at it again… attacking Linux… “What is kind of interesting with netbooks so far is that the Linux configurations have not done well with vendors reporting some of the highest return rates they have ever seen in a PC-like product for those running this platform.” < http://www.tgdaily.com/html_tmp/conte… > Dec 28 10:46
schestowitz The writer is a Microsoft shill and ‘buddy’ of Ballmer. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/23/r… http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/1… Dec 28 10:46
schestowitz Here’s Novell’s slandering of OpenOffice: http://www.hardocp.com/news.html… Dec 28 10:50
schestowitz New Novelldows crash video:  Ubuntu vs Windows Dec 28 11:00
schestowitz OOps. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=… Dec 28 11:00
trmanco schestowitz, identity theft :| Dec 28 11:02
trmanco on COLA Dec 28 11:02
schestowitz Twice Dec 28 11:02
trmanco yes Dec 28 11:02
trmanco idiots Dec 28 11:02
trmanco the one faking tattoo almost caught me Dec 28 11:03
trmanco the second one faking you was no problem, good thing you use a pgp sig Dec 28 11:03
schestowitz *gasp* Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz Some error in BN Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz DB connection Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz I needed to sort things out to reduce spam this morning. Dec 28 11:04
schestowitz SO I disabled all comment, except for in new posts Dec 28 11:04
trmanco LOL BSOD with Novell software on Windows Dec 28 11:05
trmanco ha Dec 28 11:05
trmanco schestowitz, I usually log into phpmyadmin and repair and then optimize the tables Dec 28 11:06
schestowitz I’m seeing a lot of BS in Tech Blorge today Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz This is exhausting. Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz The media talks about “intellectual property” as a legitimate thing time after time after so time that people will incapable of thinking about it differently. Dec 28 11:08
schestowitz The editors, who get their wages from people like Bill Gates, just carry on reciting words like “pirates”, the indisputable assumption that Windows is user friendly and that success is defined only in terms of wealth. Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz I’m going to write about it Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz I’ve just asked the editor of some site Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz Let’s see if they are willing to gut Microsoft Dec 28 11:09
schestowitz More needs to be written about the slimy side Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz No more “just good news” and announcement Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz Cowardice in the press ought to end. Dec 28 11:10
schestowitz Take OIN for example. Just for the record, I was never huge fans of OIN’s “Linux Defenders”, so it makes OIN view us as slightly hostile. What does that mean? It’s hard to publish a critique. Dec 28 11:10
trmanco it will end when microfoot enters bankruptcy Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz Mainstream ‘media’ is bad at criticing people or companies because it doesn’t pay for bills Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz Think about it Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz If you run a site that promote something, like Phoronix Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz Then you get free h/w to carry on doing this stuff Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz There’s not much for media (esp. commercial) to gain from saying the ugly truth Dec 28 11:11
schestowitz The ugly truth about publishing selling out Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz The corruption among analysts, aka shillnalysts or fanalysts Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz I think I’ll stick with BN instead of publishing elsewhere, but this doesn’t pay the bills, so you’re stuck right where you started Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz Anyway, I ain’t sure where this rant is going. ;-) Dec 28 11:12
schestowitz trmanco: Microsoft going benakrupt won’t end it. Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz Likewise… Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz The end of this depression (maybe in 2015, who knows?) won’t end the corruption Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz A new cycle will commence Dec 28 11:13
trmanco hmm, some company will buy microfoot Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz Besides, by that time, the Chinese and Arab world will have gained a lot more power Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz Here’s the thing Dec 28 11:13
schestowitz . Dec 28 11:13
trmanco the arabs have power Dec 28 11:14
trmanco Oil Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz You can’t end a problem like cockroaches by stepping on one. Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz You need to find the source and fumigate it. Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz The educational system is defunct Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz The modus operati (spelling?) is bad in the ‘industry’ too Dec 28 11:14
schestowitz I posted a video about it in my blog this morning. Dec 28 11:15
trmanco which educational system? Dec 28 11:17
trmanco worldwide? Dec 28 11:17
trmanco or just one specific country? Dec 28 11:18
schestowitz It depends. Dec 28 11:19
schestowitz In the US, for example, they teach bible Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz That’s a genocidal book Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz Also, people are taught to value just material things. Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz It’s the recipe for self destruction, but curricula are affected by industries that fund the schools Dec 28 11:20
schestowitz Remember that a corpocracy like that in the US is run by companies. The government is a fascism (in the proper sense of the world) or corporate interests. Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz For instance. Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz Take the “Obama brand” Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz Its slogan is “Change” Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz They put Biden in the axis Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz He’s pro-war and pro-MAFIAA Dec 28 11:21
schestowitz Then they surround him with some nice face that represent unity Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz It’s good for ‘the Brand’ Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz But all else stays the same because the very same companies still call the shits Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz *shots Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz *LOL* Dec 28 11:22
trmanco lol Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz Bad typo Dec 28 11:22
schestowitz But the i is adjacent to the o Dec 28 11:23
schestowitz Bad, bad QWERTY Dec 28 11:23
trmanco yes, but it was a funny typo and also fits in the context, sort of Dec 28 11:23
schestowitz I guess my point can be summarised thusly Dec 28 11:26
schestowitz To promote Freedom (beyond just software), the brainwash must be tackled Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz A lot of effort is put into making people passive and naive Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz To appreciate ‘freedom’ as something to do with choice Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz Like voting or choosing PC… or a Mac Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz That’s not freedom Dec 28 11:27
schestowitz That is the illusion of choice, where it’s prescribed by ‘responsible adults’ Dec 28 11:28
trmanco bbl Dec 28 11:40
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schestowitz *sigh* http://blogs.opennms.org/?p=476 They should really stop saying “open source”. If they said “Free software” repeatedly, then people would at least recognise the distinction and realise that Free means freedom, not cheap. Then again, people are raised in a society where cheap or free is bad. Dec 28 12:16
schestowitz I wonder if that’s true: http://www.workswithu.com/2008/1… Dec 28 12:19
schestowitz Microsoft a friend of open source? *LOL* http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/20… Dec 28 12:31
schestowitz Wierd way to announce a conference.. some lone blog post: http://ncoss.cdacmumbai.in/index… Dec 28 12:34
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mib_38sfnq hola Dec 28 12:48
schestowitz Hey Dec 28 12:50
mib_38sfnq full on attack against OO from Meeks today – business as usual for him Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz What’s up? Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz mib_38sfnq: it’s an old attack Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz Someone in Digg boosted old news Dec 28 12:50
schestowitz I was going to check how the heck it made front page Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz The early comments smelled funny. Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz Almost as though some group of people decided to protest in Digg. Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz And then came some more waves Dec 28 12:51
mib_38sfnq ah – I knew I had heard him singing that song before Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz E.g. http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?… Dec 28 12:51
schestowitz Meeks response: “I’m Just a Hacker”(R) Dec 28 12:52
schestowitz He mailed me a few time trying to sort of shut me up a bit (politely) Dec 28 12:52
mib_38sfnq Ha. I saw his spreadsheet presentation the other day about OO development Dec 28 12:52
mib_38sfnq he had a nice little doublethink in there Dec 28 12:53
mib_38sfnq This from Meeks in that presentation: “The very idea of an Open project using closed developer tooling & services is rather ridiculous” Dec 28 12:55
mib_38sfnq I thought Moonlight/Mono was using closed MS testing suites to test against? Closed codec services? Not strong into that end of it, have to check it out closer Dec 28 12:56
schestowitz Heh. Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz Well, they promote everything Microsoft. Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz If now at API/format level, then at binary level too Dec 28 13:00
mib_38sfnq Oh, I wanted to drop this bit of hypocrisy from Sam Ramji on you: Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz Just watch the shims they build for virtualisation. Only SLES will have them. Dec 28 13:00
schestowitz Sam is a tool. Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq “The risk is that the term [Open Source] itself loses meaning over time, which is unfortunate as it’s a powerful idea. “ Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq This coming from a man working for a company doing everything they can to confuse the meaning of Copen Source Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq of Open Source Dec 28 13:01
schestowitz He’s like some clown that says “Mussolini loves democracy” and the world is flat Dec 28 13:01
mib_38sfnq with Shared Source and Academic Source, and 1 dozen other “not-Open Sources” Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz Microsoft has a bunch of tools that tell lies Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz He’s one of them Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz Either he doesn’t work for them, or he is paid by them to pretend that Microsoft’s policies are something they are not. Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/feat… Dec 28 13:02
schestowitz Yes, Microsoft just LURVES open source. Dec 28 13:02
mib_38sfnq they just love talking that TCO mess Dec 28 13:03
schestowitz I last wrote about the Ramji Problem in http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/15/rob… Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq And check it out from that link; “With open source, it was lots of little niggly things that individually may not seem like a big deal, but quickly added up to major inconveniences – like the lack of automatic updates and security patches that forced us to rely on pricey third parties to perform upgrades,” Dec 28 13:04
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schestowitz 11 references on his name there. Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq what damn distro does NOT have auto updates and security patches? Dec 28 13:04
mib_38sfnq were they running LFS or something? Dec 28 13:05
mib_38sfnq :) Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz mib_38sfnq: it’s package level Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz Ramji is either misinformed or is lying Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz To update Apache, you update Apache Dec 28 13:05
schestowitz You don’t have “Apache for DSL” and “Apache for Mint” Dec 28 13:05
mib_38sfnq Ramji is not misinformed – he’s not an idiot. Just dishonest. Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz Here’s the thing Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz Microsoft’s Susa Huaser used the same FUD Dec 28 13:06
schestowitz They make it seem like if you’re a small distributor you need to manually change code for security purposes. Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz That’s utter BS, as I wrote at the time Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz Mandriva puts it in the cooker, Fedora makes RPMs, and so on. Dec 28 13:07
mib_38sfnq They have to do that to prop up the TCO facade Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz RHEL is more stable and LTSed Dec 28 13:07
schestowitz Marketing people:  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/30/… Dec 28 13:08
schestowitz Susan Hauser, MS: “There is a growing recognition among customers – in many countries including China – that there are significant costs to the business by running an operating system that is not supported by a commercial vendor. These costs include the staff time to do manual patches and bug fixes versus leveraging the seamless updates that are provided by Novell for SUSE Linux Enterprise as part of a support contract.” Dec 28 13:08
schestowitz Me: “Translation: China respects intellectual monopolies and ownership of mathematics. Additionally, no GNU/Linux distribution other than Novell ever receives patches. Users have to write their own. They have to keep track of Bugzilla and watchever and figure out how to fix every individual flaw. It’s really, really hard.” Dec 28 13:09
mib_38sfnq Again with the “manual patches”! What the hell company runs that flavor of Linux? Dec 28 13:10
mib_38sfnq Some company out there on Slackware or something? Come on. Dec 28 13:10
schestowitz Some are, but they don’t have to be. Dec 28 13:12
schestowitz She’s FUDing some established Chinese vendors Dec 28 13:12
schestowitz So that they pay Microsoft that “Linux tax” via Novell Dec 28 13:12
mib_38sfnq Ramji has another sneaky little attack too – he likes to draw an equivalence between Open Source and things like “Extreme Programming” and other development processes Dec 28 13:13
mib_38sfnq this lets him focus on the development side of Open Source and ignore the e idea s of sharring and freedom Dec 28 13:13
mib_38sfnq You can point out how absurd that analogy is by comparing, say, the idea of Dec 28 13:14
mib_38sfnq “Free Software” with “How you should indent C code” Dec 28 13:14
*schestowitz was help back by MS boosters Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz *held Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz Ramji is a straw man Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz I wrote about it before Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz Microsoft just need some skinny and innocent-looking man to stand there as a proxy Dec 28 13:18
schestowitz You can’t attack Microsoft’s attitude towards Linux because you first have to go through this straw man. Dec 28 13:19
mib_38sfnq Yeah, but he has some sneaky arguments. That’s how MS does – they don’t change the message, they just make it a bit more subtle Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz IOW, it’s like those woman reps that companies send out to the mob Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz The mob can’t attack women Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz So in this case, they use him as a fence Dec 28 13:19
schestowitz The white-collar criminals like Bach, Allchin, Ballmer and soon  use him as a shield, as PR. Dec 28 13:20
mib_38sfnq Yeah, that’s closer to it – he’s a “TE” like that other dude we were talking about Dec 28 13:20
schestowitz My last remark was a refrence to some develop who’s boosting Microsoft stuff by pushing it onto Debian and Ubuntu. Dec 28 13:20
schestowitz Yes Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz I wonder who else is an undercover TE Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz They sometimes get exposed Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz Someone mailed me yesterday to say that his girlfriend tracked down and busted two Microsoft TEs in a certain European nation Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz They pollute technology sites Dec 28 13:21
schestowitz Another former editor of a very large tech sites said that TEs were gaming his site Dec 28 13:22
mib_38sfnq Yes, but again – MS is good at getting subtle. They come on strong, get called out and laughed at for the blanatant lies, and then get more sneaky Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz So I can’t help thinking of some other sites rthat suffer from this too Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz In facr, Groklaw used to get them too Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz All kinds of COmpTIA (Microsoft pressure group) shills pretending to be FOSS people. Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz But… Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz be careful Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz Expose them… Dec 28 13:22
schestowitz And be called all sorts of name Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz *names Dec 28 13:23
mib_38sfnq yup no doubt there. always falling back to the personal attacks. Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz The TEs use the same tactics of mistrust to attack those who expose them Dec 28 13:23
schestowitz PJ for example: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/2… Dec 28 13:24
schestowitz Groklaw advised me when BN was young to block comments, but I never did this and don’t intend to Dec 28 13:24
schestowitz For a person who is involved in a FOSS project… I don’t know… Microsoft has some of its own people enter these projects to promote Microsoft agenda. Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz Companies too, not just projects Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz Good projects like Xen were ruined after a Microsoft proxy (Ignition) funded them and seemingly injected a Microsoft General Manager into the  board. Dec 28 13:25
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09… Dec 28 13:26
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mib_38sfnq I might work up a post about Ramji – he’s really bugging me on that post and the spreadsheet Mary Jo had up Dec 28 13:32
mib_38sfnq er, not spreadsheet … slide Dec 28 13:33
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schestowitz Slide? Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz Which one? Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz The ISV thing? Dec 28 13:35
schestowitz (from 2007) Dec 28 13:35
mib_38sfnq http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1142 Dec 28 13:35
mib_38sfnq Same one? Dec 28 13:36
schestowitz “Bill Hilf has already run away from this position and so did Martin Taylor. You can’t buy forgiveness and remorse by just swapping heads forever. They all inherit the same burden and guilt.” http://boycottnovell.com/2008/0… Dec 28 13:37
schestowitz I’m trying to find something about Microsoft pretending that Martin  taylor never existed Dec 28 13:37
schestowitz Yes, *that* one. Dec 28 13:37
mib_38sfnq I love how he’s got *vim* up there in the corner. Dec 28 13:38
schestowitz What’s his bg anyway Dec 28 13:40
mib_38sfnq Ramji? Dec 28 13:40
schestowitz “Before joining Microsoft in November 2004, I worked at BEA Systems in the WebLogic Integration product unit as Director of Market Development, focused on technical market strategy under Chet Kapoor and Dave Hinman.” Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz Yuck. BEA Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz Proprietary Dec 28 13:41
schestowitz So he had NO BACKGROUND IN FOSS as far as I can tell. Dec 28 13:42
mib_38sfnq no no he has a bit … his old blog is still on line Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq http://samus.typepad.com Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq never a Free Software guy Dec 28 13:43
mib_38sfnq as far as I can tell Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz What bit has he? Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz Did he contribute code? Dec 28 13:43
schestowitz Or is he “I’m using Firefox”-type ‘FOSS’ person? Dec 28 13:44
mib_38sfnq yeah more of the latter as far as I can tell … he came from a software-service background Dec 28 13:44
schestowitz That’s not FOSS Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz http://samus.typepad.com/what/… Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz SaaS, SaaS…….. Dec 28 13:45
mib_38sfnq right, never Free and more about OSS as a development model, with no thought to the philosophy that actually makes it work Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz Of coruse not Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz Philosophy scares Microsoft Dec 28 13:45
schestowitz It’s all for money, ethics don’t matter Dec 28 13:46
schestowitz Sometimes the law does not matter, either Dec 28 13:46
schestowitz BillG has friends in high places, so he pays or bribes or buys his way out (there are actual examples of this) Dec 28 13:46
mib_38sfnq exactly so … you can see it big time if you ever look at Port 25… cold and clinical Dec 28 13:47
mib_38sfnq no discussion of ethics, morality or real community Dec 28 13:47
schestowitz On another note, this is new < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/mic… > and it’s pretty massive: Microsoft’s massive AstroTurfing is exposed by a former chief.  I wonder how many Ramjis work ‘undercover’ among us. Dec 28 13:54
schestowitz It’s not just Port25 BTW Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz They also spread messages through former employees Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz About profit-making, other licences, etc Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz We caught incidents Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz The idea is to change open source Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz Ramji is fine with it, Microsoft is bullish on it Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz EEE Dec 28 13:55
schestowitz The issue is that if you return to Free software, then they’ll pollute it with the ‘price’ misconception Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz Didiot was doing this last year in a publication Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz Open source = visible source/development method in Microsoft’s books Dec 28 13:56
schestowitz Free software = cheap, no money, communism, radicalism Dec 28 13:56
mib_38sfnq yeah, but make sure *your* Open Source code relies heavily on Microsoft’s Closed Source libraries and infrastructure Dec 28 13:57
schestowitz Heh. Dec 28 14:01
schestowitz Well, this way Microsoft gets its share Dec 28 14:01
schestowitz [of your income] Dec 28 14:01
mib_38sfnq Microsoft ISVs are basically sharecroppers and don’t even realize it Dec 28 14:02
schestowitz Yes. Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz But they get short-term kicks Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz Microsoft: “he’s some money. Ensure we do some revenue-sharing in the future” Dec 28 14:05
schestowitz It’s a sensitive subject. It’s tiring to say that project /X/ sold out. it’s not fruitful, either Dec 28 14:06
schestowitz Microsoft is used to crushing ot buying stuff Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz What if it bought Google in 1999? Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz What if it paid GNU to disappear? Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz It’s a hack whose ammunition is only goodwill and ethics Dec 28 14:07
mib_38sfnq If MS bought Google, then Google would never have been the main search servevice Dec 28 14:07
schestowitz If ethics can be broken (“Hey! Why don’t you support SQL Server? Come on, we’ll pay you for it”), then it’s bad Dec 28 14:08
mib_38sfnq We’d be “Yahooing” or “(Alta)Vista-ing” instead of “googling” Dec 28 14:08
schestowitz it’s possible that search would not be as mainstream, as well Dec 28 14:08
schestowitz Portals were more popular when search was ru\bbish Dec 28 14:09
mib_38sfnq Maybe the “directory” approach would be more popular? Dec 28 14:09
schestowitz I used A9 until 2003, IIRC Dec 28 14:09
mib_38sfnq A9 was not too bad Dec 28 14:09
schestowitz This Apebox box is wasting my time today: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/… Dec 28 14:11
schestowitz A friend of mine reckons he’s a turncoat Shafter Dec 28 14:11
schestowitz All he ever does is heckle, heckle, heckle Dec 28 14:12
schestowitz Been reading and posting in BN all afetrnoon Dec 28 14:12
schestowitz You’d think he’d just blog his own perspective, but no.. he must go to another site and put his confrontations over there. Dec 28 14:12
mib_38sfnq i’ve been to his site … he comes on BN to argue because no one reads his site Dec 28 14:14
mib_38sfnq he’s really disingenuous in those comments, calling out OO as Sun’s cathedral project Dec 28 14:17
mib_38sfnq that’s just a straight lie Dec 28 14:17
schestowitz They attack Sun these days Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz It was noted by readers. Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz The “equally evil’ (without substantial evidence) defense. Dec 28 14:19
schestowitz Watch them keeping quiet when Microsoft crimes are discussed. Dec 28 14:20
mib_38sfnq yup Ad Hominem Tu Quoque is a favorite of Novell defenders on BN i have noticed Dec 28 14:20
schestowitz BTW, are you anonymous by choice? Dec 28 14:23
mib_38sfnq half way Dec 28 14:24
mib_38sfnq just tired of personal attacks everytime I post about Novell and stuff Dec 28 14:24
mib_38sfnq so keeping it here for now Dec 28 14:25
mib_38sfnq that’s all Dec 28 14:25
schestowitz I see.. Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz That’s why the hecklers do a lot of har, Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz *harm Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz Many readers never comment in BN Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz Some who do are being attacked Dec 28 14:26
schestowitz It’s a bit like COLA in USENET, as trmanco surely knows Dec 28 14:27
schestowitz They make it an unpleasant forum to deter potential participants. Dec 28 14:27
schestowitz Groklaw protests them better by driving away the bad crowd, but I suppose it’s prepared to be characterised as censoring, which it is, assuming that annulling shills is acceptable. Dec 28 14:28
mib_38sfnq It’s hard to balance open discussion because trolls and shills sure do take advantage of it Dec 28 14:28
mib_38sfnq blog comments are an especially difficult format to balance on top of that as well Dec 28 14:29
schestowitz That’s why I don’t intervene Dec 28 14:31
schestowitz Sometimes it gets really bad so people complain. Dec 28 14:31
mib_38sfnq i think you are doing about the best possible – imagine the cries if you deleted comments Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq people would be screaming “censorship” big time Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq better just to let it out there for all to see Dec 28 14:32
mib_38sfnq that’s what i think Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz And not to aggravate Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz Or let there be typos and mistakes Dec 28 14:32
schestowitz Groklaw’s the same, but it slowed down because of it Dec 28 14:33
schestowitz Risk of lawsuit for incorrect assertions and all. Dec 28 14:33
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*trmanco is catching up Dec 28 15:03
schestowitz 14:27: <schestowitz> It’s a bit like COLA in USENET, as trmanco surely knows Dec 28 15:04
*trmanco has caught up Dec 28 15:11
schestowitz Jo told me “fuck you” after I asked him to be polite and not in sult me: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/27/suse-a… Dec 28 15:12
trmanco oh yeah, like identity theft and so on like today Dec 28 15:12
schestowitz It’s not the first time that he curses by the way. Dec 28 15:12
schestowitz Some much for Oxford University scientists. They left the manners in the dorm. Dec 28 15:13
trmanco “fuck you” translated in English >> “Hey I don’t have anymore valid arguments on this so leave me alone” Dec 28 15:13
trmanco “I lost, you win” Dec 28 15:13
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12… Dec 28 15:19
trmanco LOL Dec 28 15:21
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trmanco http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u… << LOL, m0n0 is not really well positioned Dec 28 15:24
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schestowitz trmanco: oops :-) Dec 28 15:25
trmanco ;-) Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz GNOME is close, but I like GNOME Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz And you know what they say… Dec 28 15:26
schestowitz Microsoft wants to take on the GNU from behind Dec 28 15:27
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trmanco lol Dec 28 15:30
trmanco oh yeah Dec 28 15:31
mib_38sfnq mono should be dropping out the back end Dec 28 15:31
mib_38sfnq and a little pile of moonlight on the ground Dec 28 15:31
schestowitz When it’s fed more market share — yes Dec 28 15:31
trmanco og great Dec 28 16:09
trmanco http://www.e-u.pt/media/noticia_text… Dec 28 16:09
trmanco link is broken, got it from here >> http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Maj… Dec 28 16:09
schestowitz Windows server Dec 28 16:16
schestowitz Maybe they abandoned it :-) Dec 28 16:16
trmanco no, they moved from asp to aspx Dec 28 16:17
trmanco http://www.e-u.pt/PresentationLayer/eU_no… Dec 28 16:17
trmanco http://www.e-u.pt/PresentationLayer/eU_n… Dec 28 16:18
trmanco this is old… Dec 28 16:18
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trmanco yet another buffy overflow -> http://www.securiteam.com/… Dec 28 16:57
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schestowitz Buffy. Dec 28 17:05
schestowitz http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118276/ Dec 28 17:05
trmanco no not that Buffy :-P Dec 28 17:08
schestowitz Slay Windows. :-) Dec 28 17:14
trmanco and yet another one ->http://www.securitytracker.com/alert… Dec 28 17:15
trmanco this time with WMP Dec 28 17:15
trmanco *Exploit included* :-P Dec 28 17:15
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neighborlee schestowitz, ok thats weird…did  you and shane have some fallling out or something o_0…his comments are really bizarre considering he was a editor ?…anyway, Jo wasn’t doing anyone anygood really…facts are fine, but when debate is not only one side but also vile, its time to call them on it which we all did basicaly in unison, and he just couldn’t take it apparantly anymore ;)< and he went out in the same style, as he mostly Dec 28 17:45
neighborlee had been known for while his brief stay> Dec 28 17:45
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neighborlee oh and btw..very OT, but very kewl and worth seeing if you haven’t already: http://video.google.com/videoplay?d… Dec 28 18:00
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trmanco nice vid Dec 28 18:04
neighborlee :) Dec 28 18:08
neighborlee nature is just amazing ;) Dec 28 18:08
trmanco it sure is Dec 28 18:11
trmanco OpenOffice.org 3.0 Passes 25 Million Downloads: http://www.solidoffice.com/archives/943 Dec 28 19:23
*schestowitz just got back Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz http://www.ispreview.co.uk/new… (BBC Proposes Higher ISP Pricing for use of its iPlayer Service) Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz Goodbye, net neutrality Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz Thanks, MS-BBC Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz Patent Troll Sues Google, Apple & Microsoft < http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2008/12/26/pate… > Dec 28 20:10
schestowitz neighborlee: Shane’s comment is not a surprise. No worries, though. Dec 28 20:11
trmanco why the trolls have gone mad -> http://www.financialexpress.com/news/microso… Dec 28 20:12
trmanco oops, that doesn’t sound very good Dec 28 20:12
trmanco Novell Calls Off BrainShare 2009: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/No… Dec 28 20:13
schestowitz ECT is dying too, I thinki Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz Yes… Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz Now I see… they still just buy articles. Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz They don’t produce much. Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz They have that silly Blog Safari thing. Dec 28 20:14
schestowitz This article from Tom Harvey is old Dec 28 20:15
schestowitz About a week old. Dec 28 20:15
trmanco a week? Dec 28 20:15
schestowitz I think Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz I was drunk that night Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz Anyway, I’ve just posted to COLA. Dec 28 20:17
schestowitz I didn’t change the headline Dec 28 20:18
*trmanco checks cOLA Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz Let’s see how the Munchins respond. Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz It might not appear immediately. Dec 28 20:18
schestowitz brb, shower (just been back from the gym) Dec 28 20:18
trmanco ok Dec 28 20:18
trmanco btw, doesn’t appear yet Dec 28 20:19
schestowitz This is quite acpocalyptic… just to think they wanted to buy Yahoo for 50 bil some months ago Dec 28 20:31
trmanco LOL Dec 28 20:31
schestowitz Debt nation is what it is and MS was prepared to go into big debt at dangerous times Dec 28 20:32
trmanco just found a msn bot on my site with a search query from live.com using Firefox Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz That would have wiped them, sorta Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz trmanco: you can find MS employees seraching for FOSS stuff Dec 28 20:32
schestowitz I once did that… they also use Google… that was in 2005 when I checked it though, for fun in some Web newsgroup Dec 28 20:33
trmanco using this ip? -> http://ws.arin.net/whois/?queryin… Dec 28 20:33
trmanco and they are coming from live, but when I click the referral link I don’t appear on that page Dec 28 20:34
schestowitz Happy new year! (Microsoft’s won’t be happy… watch my next post) Dec 28 21:06
trmanco LOL Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz Some reader wrote to me with greetings. Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz We have our tough crowd, but quiet behind the scenes we have some big supporters, including some CEOs and journalists I won’t name. :-) Dec 28 21:09
schestowitz Some people are shy to say they read it. Dec 28 21:12
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1… Dec 28 21:16
trmanco great Dec 28 21:17
trmanco I think I have just convinced a friend of mine to ditch Windows in favor of Ubuntu Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz How? Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz <recommend duality Dec 28 21:18
schestowitz Windows will drop in due time Dec 28 21:19
trmanco just told him that you have less problems in Linux Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz Build a partition for him Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz GRUB Dec 28 21:19
trmanco he has already installed it Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz Good Dec 28 21:19
trmanco and wiped out windows from his hard drive Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz Some UK universities dual boot as standard now. Dec 28 21:19
schestowitz MS counts it as Win boxes Dec 28 21:20
trmanco well that is betetr thans just having Windows on it Dec 28 21:20
trmanco stupid counting schemes Dec 28 21:20
schestowitz Which distro? Dec 28 21:20
trmanco ? Dec 28 21:21
trmanco Ubuntu Dec 28 21:21
trmanco for now Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz WOT??? No Arch? Dec 28 21:21
trmanco Arch oooowe Dec 28 21:21
trmanco for a newbie, its a little hard core Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz Make his sweat for freedom. :-p Dec 28 21:21
trmanco I’ve instlled it a couple of times on a VM Dec 28 21:21
schestowitz *him Dec 28 21:22
trmanco :-P Dec 28 21:22
trmanco he is still using OSS driveres Dec 28 21:22
trmanco drivers* Dec 28 21:22
trmanco teaching him the basics Dec 28 21:24
schestowitz Monopoly meetups: http://www.ipr-helpdesk.org/events/events_3145… http://www.ipr-helpdesk.org/events/… http://www.epo.org/about-us/events/epf200… Dec 28 21:26
schestowitz =people in suits and various lawyers discussing how to make money out of engineers who actually create something. Dec 28 21:27
schestowitz trmanco: when you teach him, you teach others Dec 28 21:27
trmanco yes Dec 28 21:27
trmanco I have also found out a way for my cousin to ditch windows too Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz If he gets immersed in it, he’ll want to pass it on. It’s the network effect. For 4 people you turn to Linux you can impact 16 Dec 28 21:28
trmanco but this one was more “painful” Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz They need to /want/ to change Dec 28 21:28
schestowitz Either a major crash/virus or a good demo of Compiz/Fusion on multi-hea Dec 28 21:29
trmanco yes, thanks to microfoot (R) Dec 28 21:29
trmanco slowness Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2008/12/26/p… http://digg.com/software/Microsoft_Apple… Dec 28 21:29
trmanco and bloat made my cousin change Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz I’m pretty sure that Ars Technica is gaming Digg Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz For a long time it has seemed like it Dec 28 21:29
schestowitz Digg sometimes sorta ‘punishes’ them, which indicates group (gang) voting Dec 28 21:30
trmanco oh yeah Dec 28 21:30
trmanco FUDmeisters Dec 28 21:30
schestowitz Not quite. Just people who game Digg. I hate that. Dec 28 21:34
schestowitz They ruined Digg in my opinion Dec 28 21:34
PetoKraus i’m just reading the article on /. about OOo Dec 28 21:43
PetoKraus well… Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz It’s old Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz Digg bumped it somehow Dec 28 21:43
PetoKraus it’s true that they are one of the slowest FLOSS projects to respond to bugs i’ve tried to Dec 28 21:43
schestowitz Trolls everywhere reuse it. Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz Let me copy some remarks on it Dec 28 21:44
PetoKraus well but the bottom line is true Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz I had some E-mails with friends about it (there are not from OOo or anything. Dec 28 21:44
PetoKraus that Sun is trying to control the code Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz A friend of mine said: Dec 28 21:44
schestowitz I have not been following the OOo situation all that closely, so the following questions come from a position of ignorance: Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz 1. Isn’t Meeks really just saying that more diversity is needed in controlling contributions to the OOo code base? Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz 2.  If so, isn’t he correct in that position?  Even Luis Suarez Potts has said to me that he would like to see more diversity to the contributors to the OOo code base. Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz 3.  Sun has indeed made mistakes with regard to FOSS, criticizing Linux, for example.  Overall, I support Sun because their contributions to FOSS outweigh their mistakes, but I think that they are more controlling than they should be.  It seems to me that is what Mike Meeks is saying. Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz Here is my response (with “>”) and his: Dec 28 21:45
schestowitz On Sat, Dec 27, 2008 at 2:04 PM, Roy Schestowitz <r@schestowitz.com> wrote: Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz     >A better name for Go-OO would be MS-Go-OO-XML. Novell was a promoter of Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz     >OOXML and Microsoft used this to ram it down ISO’s throat. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz I agree that Novell and Miguel made a mistake in saying good things about OOXML.  The bane of our (the FOSS community) existence is our need for money to run servers and pay developers to write unglorious stuff like drivers, because it allows Microsoft to find a base to form partnerships like the Novell-Microsoft partnership, which I wish had never happened. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz On the other hand, my conservative Republican father thinks that the Novell deal is proof of Microsoft’s weakness and Linux’s strength.  He says that Linux must be making progress if Microsoft is forced to make deals like that.  And my father voted for McCain. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz I think that Roy’s service to the community is like that of Pamela Jones and Richard Stallman.  Roy continues to light a fire under Novell’s feet to keep its mistakes before the public, so that Novell managers continue to question whether or not their efforts are really the best thing for Novell’s public image and for the FOSS community. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz But it is also true that the FOSS community needs money, or we will just dry up and blow away.  Many of us in the FOSS community are struggling every day to pay the rent, and we need to do two things at the same time: 1) continue to push truly Free Software; and 2) make money doing it, at least so long as capitalism exists.  Our problem of poverty reflects a much broader problem — rapacious capitalism.  Free Software is motivated Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz by values that exist beyond the capitalist model of controlling markets.  So in a sense, we in the FOSS world are time travelers from the future trying to exist in a world where rapacious capitalism is still prevalent, but FOSS is from a world where quality is pre-eminent, not rapacious capitalist desires to control commerce. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz     >I suppose you don’t think about the patents associated with it and the Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz     >Mono (.NET). It Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz In re Bilski I think will weaken software patents.  Mono is clearly a mistake, although it has the beneficial effect of commoditizing .Net.  Good wine comes from poor-tasting grapes.  For example, you could also say that OOo and Audacity and all of those cross-platform FOSS apps are selling out Linux by allowing people to use those apps on Microsoft Windows. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz I see .Net as a way of distracting Microsoft.  I see software patents as a freak of the law that has been weakened by Bilski, and I think that is a trend that will continue.  I believe that much of Microsoft’s patent hoard will come to be seen as having zero value.  Patents are a huge problem for the short term, but in the long term I think we will beat them, because software patents are in disfavor, thanks to efforts of people lik Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz e Roy and governments like Brazil which do not recognize software patents. Dec 28 21:46
schestowitz    >There is also a good chance that Microsoft will buy Novell some time in Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz     >the future, along with its copyrighted assets that include many Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz     >GNU/Linux programs. They would also buy out the WordPerfect lawsuit that Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz     >way (about a third of Novell’s market cap). Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz I could see Microsoft buying Novell in an act of desparation, and I think that the stock market would react to such a purchase as a sign of desparation.  I think that the day that Microsoft buys Novell, it will also have to spend a huge chunk of change to buy more shares to prevent Microsoft’s stock from dropping more than 5%.  Novell has a hugely different business model than Microsoft. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz Novell makes money from supporting its software.  The margins in that business are tiny compared with the Microsoft licensing model, which in the past ranged greater than 80%!  Microsoft as we know it today is founded on those kinds of margins, and if you take away those margins, you dramatically change the nature of Microsoft. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz BTW, have you been following the Google market cap chase of Microsoft?  With the declining global market, both Google and Microsoft have dropped in value, but Microsoft has dropped proportionately much greater.  I remember the day that Google crossed the threshold of $100 billion market cap difference from Microsoft. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz And since that time, Google has mostly narrowed that gap even further.  The greatest objective measure of the real world digital tipping point is this gap between Microsoft and Google, because that gap signals the decline of the Microsoft Windows hegemony on the desktop. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz Today, the market cap spread between Google and Microsoft is only about $56 billion! Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz When Microsoft loses its status as a bank, it will lose its ability to dictate the terms of the desktop market.  At that point, Microsoft will have to actually compete, and we all know that when Microsoft must compete, it loses, as in the case of the X-box and the Zune and so many other instances of Microsoft failure where it must compete. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz     >Based on Sun’s word, Go-OO is a fork. Novell’s friends would try to deny Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz     >this. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz Neo-Office is also a fork, but it is a friendly fork.  And maybe it is a good thing for Sun to be forced to allow more outside control of OOo?  I don’t know.  But it really has stuck with me that even Luis Suarez Potts has said that there should be greater diversity in controlling the OOo code base. Dec 28 21:47
schestowitz The downside of greater diversity in the code base means that governing OOo becomes more cumbersome.  But the advantage of greater diversity is that Sun would need to become more responsive to the user community and the developer community, which IMHO is a good thing. Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz It is a shame that corporate capitalism pits Sun and Novell and IBM against each other, with each corporation trying to grab all the marbles and not share, as is expected of FOSS projects.  But there is a certain material force to FOSS that forces the corporate hand. Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz As long as we continue to enhance the GNU-Linux market share, we will be able to weaken the corporate influence on Free Standards and Free Software. Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz But he’s very wrong. Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz Linux and FOSS are less than 20% of Novell’s business. Dec 28 21:48
schestowitz About MS’margins: That’s no longer true. The margins fell super sharply. Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz Microsoft suffers a lot because of the Web, not Free software. Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz Or at least that’s why Windows doesn’t matter much anymore Dec 28 21:49
schestowitz About wealth in h/w: They lose billions and will soon be in debt, after the layoffs. Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz The whole thing is old news. More conversation on this: http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl… Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz And another friend contradicts this also: Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus well anyway Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus i don’t really see why are you slamming go-oo Dec 28 21:50
PetoKraus just because it’s novell? Dec 28 21:50
schestowitz “i usually agree with you, mostly -:) In this case, im totally opposite. Meeks with his follies at Novell are implementing a MS divide and conquer tactic here. Its not like Meeks is saying, the community needs to help OOo but instead pushes folks to help with the go-oo version, the Novel version. There is a lot more to OOo than developers, the Doc Project is big, Art project, launguge project is huge…” Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz “So the Meeks gang takes advantage of all the work others contribute to OOO  and use it to promote the MS/Novell agenda….” Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz “I also dont beleive Louis is happy about any of this “Forking” or for that matter anyone directly involved in the OOo community.  There is no diversity with what Meeks has done, they have essentially created their own product, dont contribute to OOo and go out and complete by saying negative things about the OOo version.” Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz PetoKraus: yes, it’s Novell’s and it could continue to serve Microsoft via Novell Dec 28 21:51
schestowitz I got this mail 10 minutes ago: Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz “Meeks isn’t even an OOo developer.  He’s be working on a hostile fork. The fork has been used to inject MS technology and to attack Sun.” Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz “It’s time to point out publicly again that Meeks is not an OOo developer.” Dec 28 21:52
schestowitz 5 minutes ago: “There’s no date on Meek’s blog, but this looks like the same one from earlier this year. In other words it looks like an old attack dragged out and used again.  I’d look around and try to see what MS/Novell are using this as a smoke screen to cover.” Dec 28 21:53
schestowitz Hm… this might make front page: http://digg.com/linux_unix/… Dec 28 21:54
PetoKraus I’ve actually got nothing against either OOo or Go-oo Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz I thought something with more beef would be appreciated: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Grou… Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz Digg is weird Dec 28 21:55
PetoKraus since the bug I experience is in both Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz Fanboy stuff is Dugg, important news is not. Dec 28 21:55
schestowitz The Novellers seem to be pushing it into Slashdot again (dupe): http://developers.slashdot.org/develo… Dec 28 22:03
PetoKraus that’s the one i’m talking about Dec 28 22:04
PetoKraus i emailed FSF about the personal USB gnewsense bootcards Dec 28 22:06
PetoKraus it seems that i’ve missed the first wave… :/ Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz We need to respons to this old news Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz Oh, not the USB.. the OOo thing Dec 28 22:06
schestowitz Which number will you be? Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz RMS is 0 Dec 28 22:07
PetoKraus i’m 6128 Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz 6127? :-) Dec 28 22:07
trmanco I’m N/A still Dec 28 22:07
trmanco :| Dec 28 22:07
schestowitz Member 0x00001FF3 Dec 28 22:07
trmanco I don’t know HEX Dec 28 22:08
trmanco http://developers.slashdot.org/comme… Dec 28 22:18
*GoblinRFD (n=tim@78-86-75-104.zone2.bethere.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell Dec 28 22:25
GoblinRFD hello all.  Merry xmas Dec 28 22:26
*PetoKraus has quit (“Leaving”) Dec 28 22:27
schestowitz Hey, GoblinRFD Dec 28 22:28
GoblinRFD :) Dec 28 22:28
GoblinRFD great post on MS shillers! Dec 28 22:29
GoblinRFD infact this holiday period, great posts all round! Dec 28 22:29
GoblinRFD Roy, what was that comment from Jo Shields all about? Dec 28 22:30
trmanco schestowitz, they are faking you again Dec 28 22:31
trmanco and it smells like fish Dec 28 22:31
schestowitz GoblinRFD: which posts? Dec 28 22:33
schestowitz trmanco: it’s probably Gary Steward with multiple accounts. let’s check.. Dec 28 22:33
GoblinRFD the comment that said “F*ck you” Dec 28 22:34
trmanco it look like him, he used on of his nyms in his sig Dec 28 22:34
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trmanco and it is crossposted Dec 28 22:35
trmanco X-Complaints-To: abuse@tornevall.net Dec 28 22:35
trmanco X-Complaints-Language: Spoken language is english or swedish – NOT ITALIAN, FRENCH, GERMAN OR ANY OTHER LANGUAGE! Dec 28 22:35
trmanco X-Validate-Post: http://news.tornevall.net/validate.php?tr… Dec 28 22:35
trmanco X-SpeedUI: 1456 Dec 28 22:35
trmanco X-Complaints-Italiano: Parlo la lingua non è italiano Dec 28 22:35
schestowitz I don’t want to spend time on Gary and the other Microsoft fraudsters. Dec 28 22:36
schestowitz He’s like a TE (shill) and he’ll get sued one day Dec 28 22:36
schestowitz He harmed many people… targeted attacks Dec 28 22:36
GoblinRFD Do you mean Gary Hobbs? Dec 28 22:37
schestowitz Rebuttal: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/12/… Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz Hobbs?? Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz No, Gary M Stewart, Microsoft shill. Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD ah Dec 28 22:41
schestowitz Nasty criminal. Some people want him in prison. Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD I was targetted by a guy called Gary Hobbs on MSwatch today. Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD stooped to some very low levels. Dec 28 22:41
GoblinRFD including pretending to be a regular Linux user called “The Hand” Dec 28 22:42
MinceR hm, who’s going to do a fork of ooo that isn’t built on any vm-based language? :> Dec 28 22:42
MinceR we have java ooo, .net ooo, time to have a native ooo :> Dec 28 22:43
GoblinRFD I am still screwing over Python 3.0…..and I cant even say its MS’s fault its gone to pot. Dec 28 22:43
tessier What’s wrong with Python 3.0? Dec 28 22:43
GoblinRFD changes in syntax mainly Dec 28 22:44
tessier Amateurs worry about syntax. Professionals worry about semantics. Dec 28 22:44
GoblinRFD lol Dec 28 22:44
GoblinRFD we have mostly amateurs working for us then Dec 28 22:44
tessier Seriously. Syntax only affects what keys you press on the keyboard. Dec 28 22:44
MinceR what’s wrong with those changes? Dec 28 22:45
MinceR tessier: no, it also affects what you read back later Dec 28 22:45
GoblinRFD nothing per say.  I can see the direction in which they are taking Python…….. Dec 28 22:45
MinceR and it also affects what you’re allowed to use in your program at all Dec 28 22:45
tessier MinceR: The former only to a certain degree, the latter not at all. Dec 28 22:45
GoblinRFD its simply for me, it appears to be change for change sake.  That and the performance of the interpretter. Dec 28 22:45
MinceR it would have been preferable to put some sort of version indicator in .py files Dec 28 22:45
tessier Lisp has very little in the way of syntax. And it can do more than most languages. It could do imperative, OO, functional, etc. before anyone else. Dec 28 22:46
GoblinRFD but why the change? Dec 28 22:46
MinceR and a series of incompatible changes could be a good place to do that Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz GoblinRFD: Google has control over Python, I sense Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz They use lots of it in-house and has the founder Dec 28 22:46
MinceR tessier: too bad it can’t do so in a readable way. Dec 28 22:46
GoblinRFD Roy, Id tend to agree. Dec 28 22:46
tessier schestowitz: Oh geez. Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz Then there’s Sun Dec 28 22:46
tessier Have you been reading the Python mailing lists? Dec 28 22:46
MinceR tessier: also, it is possible to limit a language using the syntax Dec 28 22:46
schestowitz Sun employer two of its seniors for JPython Dec 28 22:47
tessier And who has been proposing the PLIPs? Dec 28 22:47
*kentma (n=user@GLPHON22-1168101524.sdsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz GoblinRFD: it was the same with PHP4-5 Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz And Perl maybe. Dec 28 22:47
schestowitz Yes, I think Perl too… new release just came Dec 28 22:47
kentma schestowitz: probs at ellandroad… Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz Comprimises hurt at first, then pay off. Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz kentma: thanks, I noticed Dec 28 22:48
kentma Will take abt 1 week to resolve Dec 28 22:48
kentma schestowitz: sorry. Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz trmanco says that Gary posts more libel about me to lots of NGs Dec 28 22:48
MinceR an example of syntax limiting the language is here, under SIMPLE: http://www.physics.uwo.ca/~harwo… Dec 28 22:48
GoblinRFD it will be interesting to see what the uni’s will do.  Continue a course teaching an older version or switch mid term to 3.0. Dec 28 22:48
schestowitz 1 week?! :-o Dec 28 22:48
kentma Bad news, I know Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz H/w issue? Dec 28 22:49
kentma Yes Dec 28 22:49
kentma Physical presence rqd Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz Let’s see…. Dec 28 22:49
schestowitz The issue is that it’s hard to pull references without the good archive Dec 28 22:50
kentma But it will be up in 7 days Dec 28 22:50
schestowitz No hurry Dec 28 22:50
kentma Sorry, nothing I can do bbefore. Dec 28 22:50
kentma Never mind – all will be welll. Dec 28 22:51
schestowitz I’ll probably use Google. Dec 28 22:58
schestowitz They impose limits and I can’t do “Related:” too well, but it’s a decent compromise. :-) Dec 28 22:59
schestowitz kentma: thanks for letting me know! :-) I have a contingency, so it’ll be fine. Dec 28 23:05
schestowitz I don’t think I’ll make good posts (can’t easily access information), but it’s better than nothing. Dec 28 23:06
schestowitz Dragoon told Asay — privately — that he wasn’t keen on the BrainShare event. Dec 28 23:10
schestowitz About OOo and fork, someone tells me that “copyright assignments are the background of this.  Sun needs them in order to continue selling StarOffice, it’s part of their bussiness model (and I don’t think that’s a bad thing if we get OOo as a by-product).” Dec 28 23:11
schestowitz “Besides, the role of OOo is too important, and its development too expensive for us to afford two competing projects.  The same happens with e.g. wine or samba.” Dec 28 23:11
schestowitz So they weaken OOo for selfish gain perhaps Dec 28 23:11
*captain_magnus (n=mboman@opensuse/member/MBoman) has joined #boycottnovell Dec 28 23:32
neighborlee well its free, so what if they have one for sale, that amoung other things has paid support yadda…kind of like kde which needs qt, which is free for basic use otherwise.. Dec 28 23:42
benJIman It’s free for any use by free software. Dec 28 23:43
neighborlee I was just making a anaology…no offense meant to qt on any level Dec 28 23:44
*kentma has quit (“Leaving.”) Dec 28 23:57
*kentma (n=user@GLPHON22-1168101524.sdsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell Dec 28 23:57
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