IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 30th, 2009 - Part 2

Dr. Roy Schestowitz

2009-01-31 03:43:41 UTC
Modified: 2009-01-31 03:43:41 UTC

schestowitz	http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?l...	Jan 30 19:14
wasabi	I agree with the first part of that first sentence.	Jan 30 19:15
wasabi	Crawl back into your hole. If you want	Jan 30 19:15
wasabi	to know why Linux is less prevalent on	Jan 30 19:15
wasabi	netbooks now that it was when netbooks	Jan 30 19:15
wasabi	emerged, look no further than	Jan 30 19:15
wasabi	boycottnovell.com	Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz	They get trolls in LT	Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz	That troll from LT also trolled BN	Jan 30 19:15
schestowitz	Some guy @hotmail.com	Jan 30 19:16
wasabi	I'm disagreeing with that post.	Jan 30 19:16
schestowitz	When Hackers Are Funny < http://blog.datamation.com/blog/20... >	Jan 30 19:42
schestowitz	Dell for Linux phones?? http://www.pcworld.com/article/158624/dell_to_ma...	Jan 30 19:44
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schestowitz	I always feel as though I type it all too fast (on the go), which compromises quality. Then again, there is so much stuff to cover, so, you know... might as well get on with the content and worry less about the details.	Jan 30 20:05
schestowitz	This one took a long time to do, but I eventually got all the details right: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/30/micr...	Jan 30 20:06
schestowitz	Can anyone proofread with me? Please?	Jan 30 20:06
twitter	Here's a funny one. M$ sues former employee for "spying". http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/39...	Jan 30 20:06
twitter	So much for M$'s "document security"	Jan 30 20:07
twitter	DRM Failure.	Jan 30 20:07
schestowitz	twitter: can you read the above	Jan 30 20:11
schestowitz	It's worse than spying. Read it and be wowed	Jan 30 20:11
twitter	Am reading now. wow indeed.	Jan 30 20:12
twitter	I sent you the last link because people were talking up DRM as a way to keep corporate secrets. It should be apparent from this suit that M$'s DRM failed to protect them. The older case is classic and probably how M$ shut down the big GNU/Linux thrust at the end of the 90s.	Jan 30 20:14
schestowitz	twitter: I have more on DRM too	Jan 30 20:19
schestowitz	I could use your help	Jan 30 20:19
schestowitz	Could you extract the relevant text from these 3? http://boycottnovell.com/wiki/index...	Jan 30 20:20
schestowitz	The Gutmann paper is less relevant to this (mostly Vista), but the rest need to be exposed.	Jan 30 20:21
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schestowitz	Swiss police spy marijuana field with Google Earth < http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-technology/sw... >	Jan 30 20:33
twitter	I'll have a look at it.	Jan 30 20:35
PetoKraus	nice article	Jan 30 20:36
PetoKraus	it does not surprise me	Jan 30 20:36
schestowitz	Hehe. Check out Gates' fright of Linux drivers here: http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/u...	Jan 30 20:37
PetoKraus	but it's good to have the data	Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz	Yes, data is needed for legal action for example	Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz	I'm having a cursory look at more Intel exhibits that need doing...	Jan 30 20:37
schestowitz	I never saw comments we got in Reddit... hmmmmmmmmm.. http://www.reddit.com/search?q=boycottnovell	Jan 30 20:42
schestowitz	The "kretik " stalker is there too (reddit) -- same guy that harasses me in Digg and mods down all my comment, along with libel. Maybe an MS shill...	Jan 30 20:46
schestowitz	Microsoft on Intel... they have no shame.. More on the way... :-)	Jan 30 21:09
schestowitz	wasabi: is this you? http://digg.com/users/wasabii	Jan 30 21:10
schestowitz	So all your pro-patents and pro-Windows remarks make sense now. You're here to troll. http://www.facebook.com/people/Jero...	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	Oh, I see...	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	http://lists.o-hand.com/gupnp... "I'd just like to let anybody who cares know about the Mono bindings I have been working on. You can find them published in bzr at [1]. "	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	wasabi: so you're one of the Mono developers.	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	Yes, lots of Mono stuff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/~wasabi	Jan 30 21:14
wasabi	Do you consider alternate views trolling by default?	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	And you're slinging at us at Digg	Jan 30 21:14
schestowitz	So why are you here?	Jan 30 21:15
wasabi	To watch. Because I find it curious.	Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz	OK	Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz	At least we now know your motives	Jan 30 21:15
wasabi	Do you? I suspect you really have no idea.	Jan 30 21:15
twitter	that would make you a liar	Jan 30 21:15
schestowitz	So you love Mono and....... you promote Windows here	Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz	And you also strongly defend software patents, saying that they are good to you.	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	I don't promote or demote anything.	Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz	Is this the norm among Mono devs?	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	You may have noticed that. I just state opinions.	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	I'm not anti-linux, I'm not anti-MS, I'm not really anti-anything.	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	I'm pro-everything.	Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz	But you like software patents	Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz	Fair enough	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	I don't mind them.	Jan 30 21:16
schestowitz	But we now know this	Jan 30 21:16
wasabi	I cannot write off software patents while not seeing a good alternative to them.	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	Are you pro-free thought?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	Because I don't view the world as black/white.	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	What do other Mono devs think?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	I view it as a bunch of silly humans negotiating for position, compromising, trying to get stuff done.	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	Which ones?	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	Would you pay Microsoft for .NET patents?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	I'm not a 'Mono dev'.	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	I've produced barely coherent bindings for gupnp, that don't work.	Jan 30 21:17
twitter	You won't even tell us why you are here. Why should we believe anything you have to say?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	That's about the extent of it.	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	You spend a lot of time controbting to it	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	Why?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	Do I?	Jan 30 21:17
wasabi	How much time?	Jan 30 21:17
schestowitz	Are you helping Linux be patent encumbered	Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz	So that the sw patents you love become part of ti?	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	Which patents?	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	See, interseting.	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	You now claim i 'love' them.	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	That's an irrational position, as I never stated or inferred that I did.	Jan 30 21:18
MinceR	there's a good alternative to sw patents: no sw patents.	Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz	He's not pro-no sw patents	Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz	He's pro Microsoft things	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	I'm pro-everything.	Jan 30 21:18
MinceR	i know	Jan 30 21:18
schestowitz	Check log history	Jan 30 21:18
wasabi	Here I am. Speaking to you from a Linux box.	Jan 30 21:19
twitter	there are better things to do	Jan 30 21:19
wasabi	You'll notice my hostname.	Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz	wasabi: no such thing as pro-everything	Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz	That would imply pro-terrorism and child abuse too	Jan 30 21:19
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wasabi	Heh. How about we keep on topic?	Jan 30 21:19
schestowitz	This is the topic	Jan 30 21:19
wasabi	I'm an ubuntu developer. A mono developer. And I develop Linux applications in C, and Windows applications. I promote open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits.	Jan 30 21:19
PetoKraus	ubuntu	Jan 30 21:19
wasabi	brb	Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus	no worries mate	Jan 30 21:20
twitter	take your time	Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus	you know, shane made quite correct assumption	Jan 30 21:20
PetoKraus	about "internet credibility"	Jan 30 21:21
PetoKraus	there's no such thing, especially when anyone can use any smurf account	Jan 30 21:21
MinceR	"open source where it fits, and whatever else wherever else it fits" would match just about anything	Jan 30 21:21
schestowitz	I know..	Jan 30 21:21
MinceR	the question is what you think fits where	Jan 30 21:21
schestowitz	Ox picture comes to mind.	Jan 30 21:21
PetoKraus	that was only ad "I am an analytical chemist. And casual python programmer. I promote free software where it fits, and repair windows machines as my job."	Jan 30 21:22
schestowitz	Microsoft like open source where it fits.. an unimplemented TCP/IP stack :-)	Jan 30 21:22
MinceR	:)	Jan 30 21:22
schestowitz	"it Fits!"	Jan 30 21:22
MinceR	as long as they don't have to give anything back	Jan 30 21:22
PetoKraus	actually today	Jan 30 21:22
MinceR	and they'll still call it an "intellectual property destroyer" while raking in the profits	Jan 30 21:23
schestowitz	:-)	Jan 30 21:23
schestowitz	Sounds like Apple	Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus	i was thinking - i paid €£25 for "silver service" of my bike	Jan 30 21:23
MinceR	apple and microsoft	Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus	i guess it took the guy approx 2 hours to fix it	Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus	now, system restore in our shop is €£40... it takes me at about two hours	Jan 30 21:23
PetoKraus	i'm wondering whether it's fair	Jan 30 21:23
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schestowitz	To whom?	Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz	Microsoft is happy	Jan 30 21:25
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schestowitz	The customer -- not so much,.	Jan 30 21:25
schestowitz	The repairer... well, no satisfaction there, is there...? I mean, fixing stuff that breaks isn't as fun as doing creative things.	Jan 30 21:26
wasabi	My only ideological position is 'getting things done'.	Jan 30 21:27
wasabi	Linux runs on my router, because it rocks there. It runs on my desktop, because I like it. I do development in C# because it saves me time. I run IIS for web servers, because it has features that save me time. I run Windows on user's desktops, because it saves me time. I think WiMo is 'decent' because it saves me time. I think Android is awesome because I personally don't need the features WiMo has, but I'm not going to pretend my requirement	Jan 30 21:29
wasabi	s are the same as everybody's.	Jan 30 21:29
wasabi	(Android is awesome, btw)	Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz	Why did you write it 'off-line'?	Jan 30 21:29
wasabi	I didn't. I went to work.	Jan 30 21:29
wasabi	I just got back and typed that.	Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz	"Don't get me wrong, I like Android, but..."	Jan 30 21:29
schestowitz	Where have I heard this before..?	Jan 30 21:29
wasabi	I'm not anti-patent because I cannot really imagine how I'd pay developers without making money, and I can't imagine making money without patents.	Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz	The issue I have is not with the opinions	Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz	I'm not against you.	Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz	But to see that you're sort of abusing this site and vilifying it is clear.	Jan 30 21:30
wasabi	I'm not pro-patent because I think lots about patent law sucks.	Jan 30 21:30
schestowitz	Which means you're here to cause trouble.	Jan 30 21:30
wasabi	Hmm?	Jan 30 21:30
wasabi	Man I have no idea where you get that.	Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz	benJIman used to do the same thing.	Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz	He's an Opesuse lad... and he's here because "he's curious" or whatever.	Jan 30 21:31
wasabi	It is curious.	Jan 30 21:31
MinceR	most money is actually made without patents in the sw industry	Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz	More like intelligence... informing OpenSUSE people if something here goes 'amiss'	Jan 30 21:31
benJIman	Obviously everyone who disagrees with schestowitz is a troll.	Jan 30 21:31
MinceR	it's made by selling licenses and support.	Jan 30 21:31
schestowitz	benJIman: that's not the point I made	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	MinceR: And those licenses are only required because people are not able to go and duplicate work.	Jan 30 21:32
schestowitz	benJIman: see the log	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	MinceR: If they could just duplicate work, nobody would license.	Jan 30 21:32
twitter	no benji but you and wasabi are trolls	Jan 30 21:32
MinceR	wasabi: patents aren't the main reason for that	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	sigh.	Jan 30 21:32
MinceR	wasabi: code takes actual work to implement	Jan 30 21:32
schestowitz	It's when people come to IRC to disrupt, that's when it aligns with the definition of Internet trolling.	Jan 30 21:32
MinceR	wasabi: and the copying of code is copyright, not patents	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	MinceR: But the work is the cheap part.	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	MinceR: The idea is what is expensive.	Jan 30 21:32
MinceR	except no, it isn't	Jan 30 21:32
wasabi	Sure it is. Look at FOSS.	Jan 30 21:33
wasabi	There is tons of code. All done by volunteers.	Jan 30 21:33
wasabi	If it's not 'cheap', that would not be the case.	Jan 30 21:33
schestowitz	Just because you use Linux doesn't mean we're some kind of hippies rejoicing in Woodstock	Jan 30 21:33
MinceR	the way it is now is that sw patents are for ideas, not implementation	Jan 30 21:33
twitter	so wasabi, how do free software people make money without patents?	Jan 30 21:33
MinceR	so they don't cover most of the work	Jan 30 21:33
wasabi	twitter: They barely do.	Jan 30 21:33
twitter	It's a multi billion dollar industry.	Jan 30 21:33
MinceR	wasabi: yes, i'm sure about 20 years of development on a project by lots of individuals and companies counts as "cheap" in your world	Jan 30 21:33
wasabi	twitter: You have a hand ful of free software companies who are profitable, and none are profitable enough to drive any single product to absolute completion.	Jan 30 21:33
MinceR	i wouldn't call that "cheap"	Jan 30 21:34
twitter	complete, like IIS and Winblows?	Jan 30 21:34
wasabi	twitter: The ones who are massively profitable are profitable on the backs of their existing businesses, such as hardware or exclusive support contracts.	Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz	Apache is built by companies	Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz	They are paid for it	Jan 30 21:34
PetoKraus	wasabi: yes, you might want to just get things done, and if you think Windows suits you, whatever	Jan 30 21:34
MinceR	well, IIS is complete -- a complete failure. :>	Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz	Only a fraction of the developers are not from companies	Jan 30 21:34
wasabi	Works fine for me.	Jan 30 21:34
PetoKraus	wasabi: i am not here to persuade you, you know	Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz	The Linux project is similar	Jan 30 21:34
wasabi	Never said otherwise.	Jan 30 21:34
schestowitz	They pool their resources for self gain.. yes, companies	Jan 30 21:34
twitter	how do doctors, lawyers and engineers make money without patents?	Jan 30 21:34
wasabi	Um. Because they provide a service that takes years to learn. :)	Jan 30 21:35
MinceR	wasabi: also, how many individual submissions by volunteers would have to accumulate for you to not consider their sum "cheap"?	Jan 30 21:35
PetoKraus	wasabi: though part of my work is to offer help to people (not saying offer help to you). And there I much rather offer help which is related to FLOSS than proprietary products	Jan 30 21:35
twitter	and programmers don't?	Jan 30 21:35
wasabi	You cannot just copy somebodies surgical technique. You have to practice.	Jan 30 21:35
wasabi	twitter: It's a different problem space.	Jan 30 21:35
MinceR	wow, just like software design	Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz	True	Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz	Cause you can duplicate code	Jan 30 21:35
MinceR	and even development to some extent	Jan 30 21:35
schestowitz	Should we restrict what's possible?	Jan 30 21:35
MinceR	i mean coding.	Jan 30 21:36
wasabi	MinceR: software design is an abstract. The ability to 'design software' is not equivilent like 'the ability to cut open somebody an operate'	Jan 30 21:36
schestowitz	Maybe we should ride horses and wagons again	Jan 30 21:36
twitter	you can duplicate chunks of law books too, but that won't solve problems.	Jan 30 21:36
schestowitz	It makes jobs for the horse... and rickshaw people.	Jan 30 21:36
wasabi	You have to read the law books. That's where the worth is.	Jan 30 21:36
MinceR	wasabi: so what? it's still a difficult task with varying degrees of success	Jan 30 21:36
twitter	there's no difference between coding and other professions, except for M$'s monopoly market distortion.	Jan 30 21:36
trmanco	big discussion going on here	Jan 30 21:36
wasabi	I can't answer everybody at once, either.	Jan 30 21:36
PetoKraus	twitter: i'd concur	Jan 30 21:37
twitter	you can't answer any of this because you are trolling. spewing BS to waste time.	Jan 30 21:37
wasabi	MinceR: The industries that you mentioned do have sub-industries that ARE analogous to programming. Such as medicine.	Jan 30 21:37
wasabi	And they DO have patents.	Jan 30 21:37
PetoKraus	there's difference between jobs which create, and jobs which administer	Jan 30 21:37
MinceR	the way it is now, sw patents apply to vague ideas -- and everyone has lots of crazy ideas, that's not where most of the value comes from.	Jan 30 21:37
wasabi	The value comes in teh refinement of the idea. I'm going to use the office Ribbon as an example, though I think it is a highly charged example, that'll probably get most of you mad at the wrong thing.	Jan 30 21:38
wasabi	it would take me 4 days to rewrite the ribbon.	Jan 30 21:38
wasabi	Because it's dirt simple.	Jan 30 21:38
twitter	the "ribbon" only makes people who use it angry.	Jan 30 21:38
MinceR	lol ribbon	Jan 30 21:38
wasabi	But it took MSR some 15 years of sitting around and failing over and over again with Office versions until they hit on that idea.	Jan 30 21:39
wasabi	The ribbon makes technological professionals unhappy.	Jan 30 21:39
MinceR	the ribbon is a usability failure	Jan 30 21:39
wasabi	Normal users find it useful.	Jan 30 21:39
wasabi	Technological professionals are a minority.	Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz	Ribbon is Corel ripoff	Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz	That's not an 'idea'	Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz	All ideas are inspired by inputi	Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz	Input is another person's output	Jan 30 21:39
schestowitz	Or nature's output	Jan 30 21:39
wasabi	Never said otherwise.	Jan 30 21:39
MinceR	professionals make up most of the requirements and most of the profit	Jan 30 21:39
wasabi	Oh, I disagree completely. I buy MS licenses in the hundreds. I buy them for office workers. Secretaries. Marketing people.	Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz	wasabi: Microsoft is pressured to harp R&D this and that	Jan 30 21:40
wasabi	People who don't even know what RAM is.	Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz	They are given speech talking points about this nonsense	Jan 30 21:40
wasabi	Most of these people really like the ribbon.	Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz	Ribbon is about perceived value	Jan 30 21:40
MinceR	wasabi: compare them to the cost of more specialized, more "professional" software.	Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz	It's rubbish	Jan 30 21:40
schestowitz	It takes a 12 year old to think of it	Jan 30 21:40
wasabi	Then why did MS do it first?	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	And not a 12 yo?	Jan 30 21:41
MinceR	because only they use people on that mental level to design ui-s	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	it is a simple idea. It is. I'm not claiming otherwise.	Jan 30 21:41
schestowitz	Vista... WOW!..."we invested $6bn" (in this rubbish)	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	But simple ideas take time to come up with.	Jan 30 21:41
MinceR	others use skilled professionals instead	Jan 30 21:41
tessier	http://www.technewsworld.com/story/65...	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	Time is something you pay people for.	Jan 30 21:41
schestowitz	Spending $6 in making something worse? Oh wait... cause they binned Longhorn	Jan 30 21:41
tessier	Boycott Novell gets a mention	Jan 30 21:41
MinceR	or others came up with the ribbon and quickly realized how retarded it is	Jan 30 21:41
tessier	The site seems to be becoming influential	Jan 30 21:41
MinceR	and didn't develop it further	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	It might be the most simple idea in the world, but if I have to pay 30 engineers to sit around and drink Coke for 4 years until they think of it.	Jan 30 21:41
wasabi	Then I have to pay them.	Jan 30 21:42
MinceR	they have marketers, not engineers	Jan 30 21:42
wasabi	Pssh.	Jan 30 21:42
schestowitz	tessier: I saw this article before and didn't notice us mentioned	Jan 30 21:42
wasabi	Marketers are human engineers. :0	Jan 30 21:42
wasabi	Good ones anyways.	Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz	Marketing is not a profession	Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz	It's deception	Jan 30 21:43
wasabi	sigh.	Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz	Much like other redundant occupations	Jan 30 21:43
MinceR	wasabi: you really have no respect for engineering, do you?	Jan 30 21:43
wasabi	Are you that angry with the way the world, and the human race, work?	Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz	Including idiots who 'speculate' currencies and push papers around	Jan 30 21:43
schestowitz	Marketing is about subversion of market forces	Jan 30 21:44
wasabi	MinceR: I have tons of respect. I am an engineer.	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	It's about trying to sell things to people who do not need them	Jan 30 21:44
wasabi	MinceR: But I recognize no normal people will ever know about what I design until I get them to notice.	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	It's not the natural buyers that marketing targets	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	it's the indifferent people who need to be brainwash	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	The same goes for selling a way	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	*a war	Jan 30 21:44
wasabi	Sounds like living in a bubble to me.	Jan 30 21:44
wasabi	Most of the people I know are not engineers.	Jan 30 21:44
schestowitz	That's marketing too. The foreign affairs are handles by the PR industry	Jan 30 21:44
wasabi	They do not respond to arguments about technical superiority.	Jan 30 21:45
wasabi	because the mostly don't care.	Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz	So they are zombies	Jan 30 21:45
MinceR	if you take a look at the world, you'll see that there's plenty to be angry about regarding how the human race works	Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz	They respond to arbitrary messages	Jan 30 21:45
wasabi	So, is that were you stop?	Jan 30 21:45
wasabi	"They are zombies."	Jan 30 21:45
wasabi	You see, I said very early up front, I like to solve problems.	Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz	A curious person assesses things	Jan 30 21:45
wasabi	What are you proposing to do about these zombies?	Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz	A passive person listens to markleters.	Jan 30 21:45
schestowitz	Such a person is /told/ what to think	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	Me, i don't find that they are zombies. They are human beings. I want to know how to work with them.	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	How to do things that benefit them.	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	Because I cannot cahnge them.	Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz	It's only choice and independence is changing channels or friend	Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz	*ds	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	It's presumptious of me to think that I am better than everybody. So I don't.	Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz	You aren't	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	They are just different. Different personality types.	Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz	Neither am I	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	You just labeled them zombies.	Jan 30 21:46
wasabi	That sounds like you are.	Jan 30 21:46
schestowitz	But the aspiration is to improve things for everyone	Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz	And you're here trying to persuade me otherwise	Jan 30 21:47
wasabi	You are going to improve things by making everybody an engineer?	Jan 30 21:47
wasabi	Sounds unreasonable.	Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz	You came to this channel hoping to change the agenda.	Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz	I don't intrude Windows sites	Jan 30 21:47
wasabi	This is a single opinion channel/	Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz	I don't like Britney Spears, but I don't go to her fan sites to aggravate	Jan 30 21:47
wasabi	If so, I'll just leave. But that seems like a bubble to me.	Jan 30 21:47
wasabi	And not useful.	Jan 30 21:47
schestowitz	Not quite	Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz	But I see you trying to damage us	Jan 30 21:48
wasabi	Sitting around with people who already agree with you, reinforcing your own opinions? I don't do that. I go out and engage.	Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz	I saw it in Digg too	Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz	Why?	Jan 30 21:48
wasabi	Um. Because the goal is to challenge my own opinions.	Jan 30 21:48
wasabi	And challenge theirs. And challenge them to challenge me. No self-improvement can be made otherwise.	Jan 30 21:48
schestowitz	You can present the views in a platform that's receptive in the sense that it is there to listen	Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz	Which is fine	Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz	But you try to hurt this platform	Jan 30 21:49
wasabi	I don't find that helpful. All the successful campaigns of ideas in the history of the human race are forced on people who disagree.	Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz	That's like me walking into a mosque and telling people "hey, don't go in there... it's horrible inside"	Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz	A better way is this:	Jan 30 21:49
wasabi	Segregation is only gone because people stood up for their rights, and protested in front of people who did not care.	Jan 30 21:49
schestowitz	Make a platform where you can present your stance and hope to have people subscribe their attention	Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz	I, for one, read some Microsoft blogs	Jan 30 21:50
wasabi	I don't.	Jan 30 21:50
wasabi	Heh.	Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz	I don't participate but I listen and learn from them	Jan 30 21:50
schestowitz	If I want to criticise them, I do it in my platform	Jan 30 21:50
wasabi	I don't read any MS literature of any sort.	Jan 30 21:50
wasabi	I'm not that receptive to advertising.	Jan 30 21:51
wasabi	Actually I mostly don't have time.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	Apropos:	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	" COLA is not a physical location, so they have had to adapt their methods	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	so that they can do an on-line version of what was described in the prior	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	paragraph. A key method used by anti-Linux propagandist to attack Linux,	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	its users, sysadmins, developers, advocates and those who have come to	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	COLA to lean about Linux. is a form of propaganda known as disinformation.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	One of their favorite version of disinformation is known as FUD.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	7.3 A Common FUD of the Anti-Linux Propagandists	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	An example of dishonesty of the anti-Linux propagandists is their common	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	claim that the Linux proponents in COLA oppose the use of any other	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	operating system. They also would have you believe that the Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	proponents in COLA oppose everyone who does not use Linux all the time.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	Those are some of the lies that they use to try to discredit Linux users	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	who post in COLA.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	The truth is that a user of one or more operating systems other than Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	are not opposed in COLA for that reason alone. Many of the Linux Advocates	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	in COLA have experience on many other operating systems besides Linux.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	Many do use multiple operating systems on a regular basis. It is due to	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	this experience that any disinformation regarding the capabilities of	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	Linux, or that of other operating systems are easily detected by the Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	advocates.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	It is not difficult to tell the difference between an anti-Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	Propagandist and a true advocates of another operating system. Occasional	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	mention of other operating systems is fine. However, it is the frequent or	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	continuous promotion of other operating systems that turns a welcome	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	poster into an unwelcome troll or anti-Linux propagandist.	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	7.6 Trespasser Disinformation Tactics	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	This is a list of the disinformation tactics that the that the anti-Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	propagandists who post in COLA have been using. All of these tactics have	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	been used in COLA by the anti-Linux propagandists against the Linux	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	advocates and the rest of the COLA readership to further the cause of the	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	anti-Linux pro	Jan 30 21:51
schestowitz	"If COLA were a physical location like a building where those who would	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	advocate the growth of the Linux operating systems and the Linux community	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	gather, the anti-Linux propagandists would be raiding that building. They	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	would be vandalizing the building, painting graffiti on the walls,	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	defecating and urinating on the floors and furniture, breaking down the	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	doors, setting fire to the building and physically assaulting the resident	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	Linux advocates and the visitors who happen to be in the building at the	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	time of the raid."	Jan 30 21:52
wasabi	I'm not actually going to read any of that.	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	So why "piss on us"?	Jan 30 21:52
wasabi	Can you paraphrase into a form suitable for IRC?	Jan 30 21:52
schestowitz	You can spray your apartment to say you don't like what we say. That's not vandalism.	Jan 30 21:53
schestowitz	trmanco: Sermo Malifer is flatfish Stewart.. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient...	Jan 30 21:57
trmanco	I plonked him	Jan 30 21:57
schestowitz	I put up a post	Jan 30 21:58
trmanco	I plonk the majority of Windows users	Jan 30 21:58
tessier	http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2009/01/...	Jan 30 22:02
tessier	BN is references in the first comment	Jan 30 22:02
schestowitz	Cool.	Jan 30 22:04
schestowitz	I like Ken's blog	Jan 30 22:04
schestowitz	Oh, the comment is from Winter	Jan 30 22:06
schestowitz	He is (was) very prolific in Groklaw.	Jan 30 22:06
schestowitz	Google-backed tool detects Net filtering, blocking < http://news.zdnet.com/2424-9595... >	Jan 30 22:07
MinceR	http://www.samefacts.com/archives/torture_/2009...	Jan 30 22:08
schestowitz	LOL http://www.vsubhash.com/images/linux...	Jan 30 22:09
MinceR	old but funny	Jan 30 22:09
schestowitz	No eye for an eye?	Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz	"Since most bullies are also cowards, I suspect that the years of maltreatment the Bush Administration inflicted on innocent Afghani peasants to get them to make false confessions will not be necessary to get Bush and his cronies to confess."	Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz	Oh, so no waterboarding for George then, I gues...	Jan 30 22:10
schestowitz	"So now is the moment for the President-elect to confute his critics, and demonstrate that he has the toughness needed to deal with the Islamofascist threat, no matter who its agents may be." So will he criminalise them?	Jan 30 22:11
*jose__ (n=jose@98.64.49.148) has joined #boycottnovell		Jan 30 22:11
MinceR	read on :>	Jan 30 22:14
trmanco	schestowitz, was that real?	Jan 30 22:16
MinceR	it's satirical	Jan 30 22:16
MinceR	like the original "modest proposal"	Jan 30 22:16
trmanco	hmm, ok	Jan 30 22:17
schestowitz	Incompetence in action (MS partner): Comcast Screws Up And Targets Innocent Customer In P2P Dragnet < http://techdirt.com/articles/2009... >	Jan 30 22:18
schestowitz	Whoa. NEC to Lay off 20,000 as Economy Bites < http://www.pcworld.com/article/158623/nec_to... >	Jan 30 22:24
MinceR	http://www.credoaction.com/comics/2009/01/in...	Jan 30 22:24
wasabi	I had no idea 20,000 people worked for NEC	Jan 30 22:27
schestowitz	Yes, same here re: proportion/scale of workforce. The company is a dinosaur though.	Jan 30 22:29
schestowitz	Samsung hs/had 700,000	Jan 30 22:29
schestowitz	Ubuntu burial for poor man << http://www.sowetan.co.za/News/Artic... >>	Jan 30 22:33
MinceR	why even bury people?	Jan 30 22:34
MinceR	cremate them	Jan 30 22:34
MinceR	or study them for science :)	Jan 30 22:35
schestowitz	Religion does not like this idea.	Jan 30 22:36
schestowitz	"What about the souls..." you know?	Jan 30 22:36
MinceR	the souls are supposed to be already departed	Jan 30 22:36
schestowitz	Cremated too?	Jan 30 22:36
MinceR	unless there's a large amount of people practicing ancient egyptian faith :>	Jan 30 22:36
MinceR	at the point of death	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	Well, pyramid slavery and all...	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	Did you see the body they pulled from the glacier the other day?	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	Over 5000 years old...	Jan 30 22:37
MinceR	i'm not sure	Jan 30 22:37
MinceR	probably not	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	Almost old enough to scare those who believe the earth is no more than 6000 years old.	Jan 30 22:37
MinceR	:D	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	I think it was in the Reg	Jan 30 22:37
schestowitz	Wait	Jan 30 22:37
MinceR	i though the one in the Reg wasn't found recently	Jan 30 22:38
MinceR	only analyzed more thoroughly recently	Jan 30 22:38
MinceR	to find the cause of death	Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz	I was actually shocked last month when someone here in IRC said the teachers are forbidden from telling truth about Grand Canyon	Jan 30 22:38
MinceR	don't you know the world was created last Thursday? :>	Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz	They are not permitted to tell kids how old the canyon is	Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz	Wait..	Jan 30 22:38
schestowitz	http://www.theregister.co.uk/200...	Jan 30 22:39
schestowitz	That's the dude	Jan 30 22:39
MinceR	whose frozen body was found preserved in an Italian glacier in 1991	Jan 30 22:39
schestowitz	Windows 7: Not Quite The Change We Need < http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fasterforward... > :-)	Jan 30 22:39
MinceR	s/^/"/; s/$/"/	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	I didn't see the comment, but maybe the Vole has already unleashed Turfers on him...	Jan 30 22:40
MinceR	vista7 might continue the change we need	Jan 30 22:40
MinceR	that was already helped by vista	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	Yes	Jan 30 22:40
MinceR	that is, the marginalization of windows	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	I know	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	Windows for -$50	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	"Just take it, take it!"	Jan 30 22:40
schestowitz	"And buy Office for $99 as addon"	Jan 30 22:41
MinceR	:)	Jan 30 22:41
schestowitz	Microsoft may be the next Symantec	Jan 30 22:41
MinceR	"i'll take ten billion then. that'll be $500 billion, thank you very much."	Jan 30 22:41
schestowitz	I suppose you heard the news about Symantec	Jan 30 22:41
MinceR	i haven't, but their expertise is legendary	Jan 30 22:42
MinceR	at least their hungarian distributors keep saying the most uninformed and stupid things publicly all the time	Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz	$500bn, eh? Who would loan this money	Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz	Microsoft must have about $5bn left in the bank ATM	Jan 30 22:42
MinceR	the USian government, of course	Jan 30 22:42
schestowitz	The Foundry of Gates is another matter	Jan 30 22:43
MinceR	money is created out of nothing anyway	Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz	That's where they StashIt!	Jan 30 22:43
*jose (n=jose@98.64.49.148) has joined #boycottnovell		Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz	MinceR: money is printed	Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz	Either as bills or as balance sheet	Jan 30 22:43
MinceR	most of it actually isn't	Jan 30 22:43
MinceR	it's created in banks :)	Jan 30 22:43
schestowitz	Some people lost all their savings, which were tied to stock	Jan 30 22:43
MinceR	afaik even balance sheets are optional now	Jan 30 22:44
*jose__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))		Jan 30 22:44
schestowitz	Other people have possessions like houses. Their worth dropped, but they maintain possession. Less fortunate ones have a mortgage so they lose the house or rent it now.	Jan 30 22:44
schestowitz	Let me find s/t	Jan 30 22:44
jose	schestowitz, I fell asleep thinking about something before.. I think I'll clean up and then present "part 1".	Jan 30 22:45
schestowitz	http://www.markshuttleworth.co...	Jan 30 22:46
jose	I'd prefer to do part 2 before posting part 1 but I think I can clean something up that I won't want to undo.	Jan 30 22:46
schestowitz	He said something along the lines of, "what does it mean to have money in the bank if the banks go bankrupt?" he's good at macro-economics. What did he study again? Was it business?	Jan 30 22:46
schestowitz	jose: did you see the post about RMS quote on mono?	Jan 30 22:47
schestowitz	RMS: “”[…] we know that Microsoft is getting patents on some features of C#. So I think it’s dangerous to use C#, and it may be dangerous to use Mono.”	Jan 30 22:47
jose	not yet.. i was sleeping	Jan 30 22:47
schestowitz	I found this while catching up with hundreds of comments in Reddit	Jan 30 22:47
*MinceR is waiting for the end of central regulation practiced by microsoft		Jan 30 22:48
schestowitz	http://www.billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html "“Microsoft’s perspective is best reflected by Bob Herbold, Chief Operating Officer, to whom the CFO reports. Bob very sincerely replied, “Bill, everyone is doing it.” "	Jan 30 22:49
schestowitz	Karl Marx, Das Kapital, 1867: " Owners of capital will stimulate the working class to buy more and more of expensive goods, houses and technology, pushing them to take more and more expensive credits, until their debt becomes unbearable. The unpaid debt will lead to bankruptcy of banks, which will have to be nationalised…"	Jan 30 22:49
schestowitz	Intel Gets Educational with Classmate PCs < http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/01/30/inte... >. Education????????????????????/ Or just more bu$ine$$.	Jan 30 22:51
schestowitz	Spot the Orwellianism in "Unlimited Potential" [to corrupt young minds]	Jan 30 22:51
schestowitz	"Unlimited Potential" is in some sense the public identity of EDGI, for which Microsoft has variants with similar acronym and "project Marshall" (Microsoft calls this Memorandum of Understanding" in public)	Jan 30 22:53
jose	i forgot to post this last time i was on.. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Bill-Melinda-G...	Jan 30 23:00
schestowitz	Tell them to sod off	Jan 30 23:01
schestowitz	Are B&M still investing in Nigerian oil that kills kids?	Jan 30 23:01
schestowitz	I case you didn't see the videos: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/02/th...	Jan 30 23:02
schestowitz	Wow. I've just watched carefully the latter part again.	Jan 30 23:04
schestowitz	So he's injecting investments into big pharama (billions) and then uses his 'donations' to feed those companies, which in turn brings him profit. Geez, this is criminal stuff. It's like making people ill so that you can sell them medicine and call yourself a Saint.	Jan 30 23:05
schestowitz	""Bill and Melinda Gates said Friday they were encouraging government and business leaders to keep investing in health and development in poor countries -- especially during the global financial crisis.	Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz	Of course...	Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz	How else would big pharmas make money?	Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz	Gates is an investor in big pharmas	Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz	They need to ensure governments give money to those phramas	Jan 30 23:08
schestowitz	B&M need $$	Jan 30 23:08
jose	like windows, claim you are working on the X that powers the world, but don't say how you are keeping others from contributing similarly and more.	Jan 30 23:11
schestowitz	Yes, lying without guilt is an art	Jan 30 23:14
schestowitz	I'll wrtite about this later	Jan 30 23:14
schestowitz	Bear in mind that B&M also fund the very govts they urge to pay pharmas here.	Jan 30 23:15
schestowitz	So the money in this cycle comes mostly from exploiting the poor.	Jan 30 23:15
*yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-71-188-245-175.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell		Jan 30 23:27
yuhong	Last time I talked about DR, SCP, and MS-DOS, my point was that MS did not get big by innovating.	Jan 30 23:28
MinceR	and that's correct	Jan 30 23:29
MinceR	(unless we argue that m$ got big by innovating in the field of crime)	Jan 30 23:30
yuhong	Sadly it deloved into whether MS did anything illegal here.	Jan 30 23:30
yuhong	MS didn't and even if it did, that is not my point.	Jan 30 23:30
yuhong	MS got big because DR dropped the ball, not because DOS was innovative.	Jan 30 23:31
MinceR	they did and sometimes they got caught	Jan 30 23:31
MinceR	but many of the evil things they did were legal	Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz	yuhong: revisionism from you again?	Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz	The USDOJ disagrees with you	Jan 30 23:31
schestowitz	Microsoft was found guilty many times	Jan 30 23:31
yuhong	I am talking about back in 1981.	Jan 30 23:31
yuhong	the USDOJ investigations happened much later.	Jan 30 23:32
MinceR	investigations often investigate the past	Jan 30 23:33
schestowitz	http://linuxmednews.com/1233253455 ( Fedral Government To Blow Little Guy Out of the Water?)	Jan 30 23:33
yuhong	Yes, but USDOJ never invesigated MS back in 1981.	Jan 30 23:33
yuhong	I am talking about MS-DOS 1.x/original IBM era here.	Jan 30 23:33
yuhong	Not the Windows 3.x era, I know that by then USDOJ was investegating MS thanks to AARD.	Jan 30 23:34
yuhong	And other things like that.	Jan 30 23:34
yuhong	Anyway, whether it was illegal was beside my point.	Jan 30 23:35
yuhong	My point is that MS did not get big by innovating.	Jan 30 23:36
yuhong	In contrast, Google got big because it had PageRank.	Jan 30 23:36
yuhong	The things MS did in 1980-1981 was not illegal.	Jan 30 23:37
yuhong	I know that MS begin to be invetigated by the DOJ in the early 1990s.	Jan 30 23:38
yuhong	Get it now?	Jan 30 23:38
*yuhong has quit ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]")		Jan 30 23:39
MinceR	lol	Jan 30 23:39
schestowitz	He comes here every now again from Seattle	Jan 30 23:40
schestowitz	he does the same in Roughly Drafted and sites that are openly opposed to Microsoft's crimes	Jan 30 23:40
MinceR	what does he want to prove anyway?	Jan 30 23:40
schestowitz	You should see him when 's going at it	Jan 30 23:41
schestowitz	How much he loves Vista..	Jan 30 23:41
schestowitz	How Microsoft doesn't break the law and so on..	Jan 30 23:41
MinceR	:)	Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz	I thought he had lived in the east, but no..	Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz	The English is llmited and he runs away when I ask about his location	Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz	Hold on..	Jan 30 23:42
schestowitz	It's better to show than to tell, so... http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/09/m...	Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz	"There was also news that left a hint of egg on some Redmond faces. Specifically, citing a confidential memo from Microsoft that was used as evidence in antitrust proceedings, an article on Boycott Novell charged that a Microsoft "task force" lobbied Wal-Mart "	Jan 30 23:43
schestowitz	"More than 1,400 Diggs and 300 comments greeted that one on Digg, even as bloggers also pondered a post from CNet's Matt Asay titled "Facts Behind Microsoft's Anti-Linux Campaign.""	Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz	Both of these are BN posts... http://www.linuxinsider.com/r...	Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz	I have another Intel one coming tomorrow	Jan 30 23:44
MinceR	so he's a drive-by troll :>	Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz	http://digg.com/linux_unix/Microsoft_on... It'll make LinuxToday FP.	Jan 30 23:44
jose	roy, i'm not happy with how the draft sounds.. I don't think i'll be able to do very much more until sunday earliest.	Jan 30 23:44
schestowitz	wasabi might want to troll this one too, as he did earlier today	Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz	I'll post it tomorrow. Headline: Bill Gates: “This huge [Linux] Driver Group Scares Me.”	Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz	Someone did the text for nme	Jan 30 23:45
schestowitz	"If it's a scanned image I just type it up...for me it seems faster to do that. If it's already OCRd, then I copy the text and paste it into gedit, and then compare the two side by side and correct the OCR mistakes. The hardest part is making sure the mistakes in the original text are left intact." We do the same thing in BN...	Jan 30 23:46
schestowitz	But I use Kate, not gedit (GNOME.. meh)	Jan 30 23:46
schestowitz	She's using Free software (Scribus). Scribus would be delighted to know. I was in touch with them before (USENET).	Jan 30 23:47
schestowitz	Tomorrow's is Plaintiff's Exhibit 6567	Jan 30 23:47
schestowitz	jose: no rush, thanks.	Jan 30 23:47
jose	thanks.. maybe i'll email you an update.	Jan 30 23:48
schestowitz	Katherine Noyes cites us quite a few time... good stuff.. http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstor...	Jan 30 23:48
schestowitz	Firefox gets a Live Search add-in, but does anyone care? http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2009/01/f...	Jan 30 23:49
schestowitz	Microsoft brags about it as though it contributes to FOSS	Jan 30 23:49
schestowitz	It's like putting a Nike ad in a squash court and then claiming credit for 'decorating' the place	Jan 30 23:50
schestowitz	Poor martionette... http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/0... ... was handed a mess to deal with. He can start by cleaning up the fascistic laws ("amendments") and prosecuting Bucheney	Jan 30 23:51
schestowitz	jose: Funny comments here < http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?... >. Seen em yet?	Jan 30 23:52
jose	8 out of 10 terrorists are smarter...	Jan 30 23:55
schestowitz	They are not always stupid	Jan 30 23:56
schestowitz	In the US, people who are against the invasion of Iraq are labeled terrorists too	Jan 30 23:56
schestowitz	This was in the news some months ago	Jan 30 23:56

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: January 30th, 2009 - Part 2

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