03.30.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 29th, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:32 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

Balrog_	sure they use dynamic linking	Mar 29 22:12
MinceR	and with a proper package manager you can do the same	Mar 29 22:13
MinceR	yet you won’t have to load the same library into memory multiple times	Mar 29 22:13
Balrog_	some apps actually do install frameworks in /Library/Frameworks	Mar 29 22:13
MinceR	and you can get bugfixes to libraries	Mar 29 22:13
Balrog_	that’s true with libraries that aren’t app specific	Mar 29 22:13
MinceR	well, that kind of blows up the illusion of “self contained apps” then	Mar 29 22:13
Balrog_	they do that	Mar 29 22:13
Balrog_	OS X provides most needed libraries	Mar 29 22:13
MinceR	perhaps someday apple fanboys will decide whether they like “self-contained apps” which osx apparently doesn’t do or they like what everybody else does	Mar 29 22:14
Balrog_	explain how it ‘doesn’t do’…	Mar 29 22:14
MinceR	you’ve just explained it above	Mar 29 22:14
MinceR	002154 < Balrog_> some apps actually do install frameworks in /Library/Frameworks	Mar 29 22:14
Balrog_	that’s a few	Mar 29 22:14
Balrog_	we don’t necessarily consider them well behaved	Mar 29 22:14
MinceR	oh, i see	Mar 29 22:15
MinceR	so apple fanboys think they’re smarter than apple	Mar 29 22:15
MinceR	that’s nice	Mar 29 22:15
Balrog_	it’s easy enough to put a library in one app and have another app that is from the same program package call it relatively	Mar 29 22:15
schestowitz	Some Mac installers are huge	Mar 29 22:15
schestowitz	Compared even to Windows	Mar 29 22:15
Balrog_	schestowitz: remember the fat binaries	Mar 29 22:16
MinceR	by not making apps really self-contained they lose the alleged benefits of them being self-contained	Mar 29 22:16
MinceR	but by making them partially self-contained they manage to retain bloat	Mar 29 22:16
Balrog_	fat binaries means double the code	Mar 29 22:16
MinceR	trust a bunch of marketers to design an OS well.	Mar 29 22:16
MinceR		Mar 29 22:16
Balrog_	os x isn’t designed by marketers, or it would be like vista	Mar 29 22:17
schestowitz	NVIDIA to buy significant stake in VIA? < http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/28/… >	Mar 29 22:17
MinceR	well, is there anyone who works for apple but isn’t a marketer	Mar 29 22:17
MinceR	?	Mar 29 22:17
Balrog_	sure there are	Mar 29 22:17
MinceR	oh, wait, they’re into patent FUD now, that means they must have an army of lawyers too	Mar 29 22:17
Balrog_	someone pasted recent apple job postings by them recently; I should have bookmarked it :/	Mar 29 22:18
MinceR	i’m sure they can make up pretty fancy titles for marketers	Mar 29 22:18
Balrog_	heh, is anyone not dealing with patents? I mean it’s like sue or get sued	Mar 29 22:18
Balrog_	they recently got sued a couple of times lately….	Mar 29 22:18
Balrog_	s/lately/	Mar 29 22:18
MinceR	and the proper response to that is to spread FUD about competitors	Mar 29 22:19
MinceR	i see	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	well, I didn’t hear direct fud	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	like MS does	Mar 29 22:19
MinceR	better watch the news then	Mar 29 22:19
MinceR	it was pretty difficult to miss	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	yes, stuff that could be interpreted as indirect fud	Mar 29 22:19
MinceR	well, good night anyway, i’ve got to get some rest	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	“we’ll defend our IP”	Mar 29 22:19
schestowitz	FUD	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	but so did Pam say that	Mar 29 22:19
oiaohm	schestowitz: NVIDIA is hunting x86 licence.	Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_	Palm *	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	What Pam	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	Oh	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	PJ… methought	Mar 29 22:20
Balrog_	heh	Mar 29 22:20
MinceR	wow, Palm dared to reply after being threatened	Mar 29 22:20
Balrog_	sorry :/	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	She thinks MS sues Apple by proxy	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	The iphone suiots	Mar 29 22:20
MinceR	such nerve they have!	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	suits	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	oiaohm: yes, Intel too	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	Will write about it tomorrow	Mar 29 22:20
schestowitz	They countersued	Mar 29 22:20
Balrog_	Apple has patents and Palm has patents …. I’m sure palm would be able to countersue apple into a cross-licensing agreement, if apple actually was to sue	Mar 29 22:21
Balrog_	hopefully the lawyers are smarter than that ……..	Mar 29 22:21
schestowitz	What bollox	Mar 29 22:21
Balrog_	sigh	Mar 29 22:21
schestowitz	They don’t need that	Mar 29 22:21
schestowitz	They carry on playing with garbage	Mar 29 22:21
Balrog_	yeah, they don’t need it, and they better not do it	Mar 29 22:21
schestowitz	I’ll paste here a mail I got this afternoon	Mar 29 22:21
schestowitz	From someone who knows it’s a massive bubble	Mar 29 22:21
Balrog_	you mean the patents?	Mar 29 22:22
Balrog_	or……..?	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“Industry is decoration in the patent struggle. It is about institutional interests, not business interests. I don’t fear Microsoft or any other player, including a converted RedHat. I do fear the burst of the patent bubble and the organised irresponsibility of patent offices.”	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“So our policy was not attack market players but the system. The description as an industry fight with the large and powerful corporations seeking patents is a self-fulfilling myth. A media pattern. I have to crack the belief system inside industry, not to affirm it.”	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“In this case the point to make is the contradiction with the pretended patent policy. All this can well fire back and undermine the very strong public patent position of RedHat.”	Mar 29 22:22
Balrog_	that’s about the RedHat patent on a standard?	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	Another person:	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“Roy, It’s a good article and as usual I wonder how you find the time to do all the research.”	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“It is true that attacking Red Hat looks risky (and I’ve received some very angry mail about my role in that) but to be honest we do need their help and over the last years it’s been totally absent though we’ve been very nice to them (in the activism area).”	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	“I honestly think Rob Tiller & co. are cynically using the patent system for their firm’s own benefit, partly for defensive reasons, but mainly because it’s just profitable to be able to kick out competitors like Debian, and that this will start to change when people start to understand, and complain in large numbers.”	Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz	Red Hat is no example Balrog	Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz	Red Hat could use some toppling for this too	Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz	Which is why I won’t try Fedora next (I already use it in some places)	Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz	Debian I can trust	Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz	Even BLAG (pint [H]omer )	Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz	*ping I meant	Mar 29 22:23
Balrog_	Fedora doesn’t have redhat proprietary code…??	Mar 29 22:24
Balrog_	I didn’t think it had such code….	Mar 29 22:24
schestowitz	http://dvice.com/archives/2… “blade computers running the Unix-based Linux operating system.”	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	UNIX-based Linux…	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	“blade computers..”	Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	that’s backwards	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	No capitalisation	Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	well no	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	I thought Blades were servers..	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz		Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	it’s ok	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	Rookie writers…	Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	no, we have Blade workstations	Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	Sun Blade 150	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	Yes…	Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_	they look like desktops	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	But what caught my eye was the former	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	Unix-based Linux operating system	Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz	Linux is not an operating system	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	It’s a platform	Mar 29 22:27
Balrog_	no, GNU/Linux is the OS	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	And it’s not “Linux-based”	Mar 29 22:27
Balrog_	Linux is a kernel	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	UNIX-based I ments	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	It’s UNIX-alike	Mar 29 22:27
Balrog_	ahh yeah	Mar 29 22:27
Balrog_	it’s based on the POSIX standard….	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	The article looks like a pro magazine	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	But the content.. I dunno..	Mar 29 22:27
schestowitz	Just found it a sec ago.	Mar 29 22:27
oiaohm	Unix is a standard.	Mar 29 22:28
oiaohm	Nothing is Unix based.	Mar 29 22:28
oiaohm	Linux has been a certified Unix a few times in the past.	Mar 29 22:28
Balrog_	really? which ones?	Mar 29 22:28
oiaohm	The distributions are dead.	Mar 29 22:29
Balrog_	:/	Mar 29 22:29
oiaohm	Do you know what the costs are to maintain Unix certification.	Mar 29 22:29
schestowitz	The shills at ZDNET have just published “Linux… Is it ready for the “average” user? “	Mar 29 22:30
Balrog_	yeah I know	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	Another one of those ‘articles’ that use question marks to say “No”	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	More FUD	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	“Read for the desktop” is FUFD	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	Creating uncertainty	Mar 29 22:30
oiaohm	Solaris that most people think as a Unix currently is not certified either.	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	Lousy ZDNET	Mar 29 22:30
schestowitz	I hope it drops dead and dies as a publication altogether soon	Mar 29 22:30
oiaohm	Every kernel change is a massive audit.	Mar 29 22:30
Balrog_	just /why/?	Mar 29 22:31
schestowitz	It turned from journalist to blogs when Ziffy went bankrupt	Mar 29 22:31
Balrog_	linux is ready for most users; it still needs a bit more polish though	Mar 29 22:31
schestowitz	Red Hat lifted by increased free use of Linux < http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9e80a18-1… >	Mar 29 22:31
schestowitz	Sure seems ready fore many	Mar 29 22:31
Balrog_	the command line is problematic for many	Mar 29 22:31
schestowitz	But when people come with misconception that it’s “not ready”, then they get latched onto it	Mar 29 22:32
oiaohm	For person like me its not ready.	Mar 29 22:32
schestowitz	When peopel think Mac is easy, they don’t give up	Mar 29 22:32
Balrog_	and the GNOME vs. KDE vs. XFCE isn’t good	Mar 29 22:32
schestowitz	As that would make them “Stupid”	Mar 29 22:32
oiaohm	But the tech for it to be ready should be in place by end of year.	Mar 29 22:32
schestowitz	Balrog: do you need the CLI? Which distro?	Mar 29 22:32
schestowitz	Balrog: choice — not good?	Mar 29 22:32
Balrog_	no, I’m complaining that end users get intimidated by CLI	Mar 29 22:32
oiaohm	Mostly a fixed up graphic stack so kernel panic caused by Nvidia does not leave users hanging.	Mar 29 22:32
Balrog_	choice leads to confusion	Mar 29 22:33
Balrog_	unfortunately	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	Maybe we can kill 2/3 of the s/w to make it easy for you.	Mar 29 22:33
oiaohm	So user can blame Nvidia for the problems they cause.	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	Ease of use through destruction	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	oiaohm: you mean like Windows not booting	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	Or bad Apple patches that leave users stranded in CLI?	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	That happens.	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	They just phone up the companies	Mar 29 22:33
schestowitz	Not post in Web forums	Mar 29 22:34
oiaohm	Windows not booting has many causes.	Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_	that happened a couple of times :/	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 29 22:34
oiaohm	NTFS fucking up is not talked about.	Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_	at least archive+install makes for easy recovery on a mac	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	A couple of times I can recall	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	I remember 2 times.	Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_	you had it happen?	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	oiaohm: it’s just ‘computers’. They ‘break’	Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_	(to your systems)	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	Maybe NTFS, maybe virus..	Mar 29 22:34
oiaohm	NTFS drivers need to be taken out shot and rebuild.	Mar 29 22:34
schestowitz	The rule is that you need to reinstall every 6 months…	Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_	that’s windows right?	Mar 29 22:35
oiaohm	Exacty	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	Balrog: no, not mine. Did you ask oiaohm ?	Mar 29 22:35
Balrog_	I thought you were talking about mac dumping people to cli	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	Not mine	Mar 29 22:35
Balrog_	I’ve never seen /that/ but I’ve seen other things:	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	I hardly used Macs	Mar 29 22:35
oiaohm	people talk about Linux problems people are 100 percent use to windows problems.	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	Mac OS 9	Mar 29 22:35
oiaohm	So much so they don’t even bother investaging.	Mar 29 22:35
schestowitz	I used OS X a few times (other people’s computers)	Mar 29 22:36
Balrog_	(a) APE messing stuff up, but APE is considered dangerous to begin with	Mar 29 22:36
schestowitz	+1	Mar 29 22:36
Balrog_	(b) the GPU drivers for the internal video in the original G3 systems were bad, and it would cause video to go out randomly. Solution: get a newer video card	Mar 29 22:36
Balrog_	and yes, there is archive and install, something neither linux nor windows do well yet	Mar 29 22:37
Balrog_	(should be easy for linux….diff installed apps vs. preinstalled apps, keep home dir, after install, put back the not-installed apps)	Mar 29 22:37
Balrog_	giving the user a list if necessary	Mar 29 22:38
Balrog_	I haven’t seen a distro that has such a feature	Mar 29 22:38
oiaohm	There are back system that work well.	Mar 29 22:38
oiaohm	On Linux	Mar 29 22:38
oiaohm	abusing the package manager.	Mar 29 22:38
Balrog_	you mean backup?	Mar 29 22:38
oiaohm	Only to backup files not in package manager.	Mar 29 22:38
Balrog_	no, I’m talking about a reinstalling the system without losing apps/data	Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_	about reinstalling *	Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_	you know, like reinstalling windows	Mar 29 22:39
oiaohm	So am I	Mar 29 22:39
oiaohm	Backup script then reinstall.	Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_	well, you don’t want to put back the bad data…	Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_	that’s one benefit of self contained apps, and the structure that OS X provides	Mar 29 22:40
oiaohm	To a point.	Mar 29 22:40
oiaohm	Linux filesystem stardards if applications follow them finding whos file is who is simple.	Mar 29 22:40
Balrog_	/System/Library for system stuff, /Library for system-wide user-modifiable stuff, ~/Library for user-specific stuff	Mar 29 22:40
Balrog_	/Applications for programs	Mar 29 22:41
oiaohm	Do you understand why Unix/Linux is layed out the way it is.	Mar 29 22:41
Balrog_	yes, I sure do	Mar 29 22:41
oiaohm	Seek time.	Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_	it certainly makes sense to have a /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, etc	Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_	Solaris does it right by putting apps in /opt	Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_	(non-system apps)	Mar 29 22:42
oiaohm	So does linux for non distribution applciations.	Mar 29 22:42
oiaohm	If they follow spec.	Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_	yeah, if they follow spec.	Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_	too many don’t.	Mar 29 22:42
oiaohm	Linux problem is non spec following.	Mar 29 22:43
oiaohm	Same thing can happen on apple.	Mar 29 22:43
oiaohm	There are about 10 application on apple I know that don’t follow spec.	Mar 29 22:43
Balrog_	and it does happen. Such apps tend to suck though	Mar 29 22:43
Balrog_	like Stuffit which uses an installer that’s not necessary (and people hate it)	Mar 29 22:43
Balrog_	Adobe apps put various stuff in /Library	Mar 29 22:44
Balrog_	true, they come with uninstallers, but that’s still not good behavior IMO	Mar 29 22:44
schestowitz	Firefox reached 863 million downloads on 2009-03-29 22:49 UTC	Mar 29 22:44
Balrog_	if they do put stuff in /Library, it should stay in /Library/Application Support/Adobe and nowhere else	Mar 29 22:44
oiaohm	Something anti-virus guys are working on well help a lot.	Mar 29 22:44
Balrog_	explain how that’s related….?	Mar 29 22:45
oiaohm	Fixing up the linux filesystem monitoring system.	Mar 29 22:45
Balrog_	ahh that	Mar 29 22:45
oiaohm	fanotify	Mar 29 22:45
Balrog_	os x has a kernel level filesystem monitoring api	Mar 29 22:45
oiaohm	So does Linux 2 of them.	Mar 29 22:45
oiaohm	And they both sux.	Mar 29 22:45
Balrog_	yeah :/	Mar 29 22:45
oiaohm	inotify and dnotify	Mar 29 22:46
oiaohm	Both only do half the job if that you need and don’t work well with eachother.	Mar 29 22:46
schestowitz	AMD Releases R700 Instruction Set Architecture < http://www.phoronix.com/scan.ph… >	Mar 29 22:46
oiaohm	This is why I get annoyed with people like Linux Hater	Mar 29 22:47
oiaohm	There are plenty of valid points to pick on Linux for.	Mar 29 22:47
oiaohm	Just they take true knowledge of it to find.	Mar 29 22:47
Balrog_	ys.	Mar 29 22:49
Balrog_	yes *	Mar 29 22:49
Balrog_	http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Da… for the one in os x	Mar 29 22:49
schestowitz	If anyone knows what’s up with ZDNet, please holler… http://boycottnovell.com/2009/03/29/z…	Mar 29 22:51
Balrog_	what about Georage Ou and Mary Jo Foley? They’re still at ZDNet?	Mar 29 22:52
Balrog_	George *	Mar 29 22:52
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 29 22:55
schestowitz	Mary has her own blog	Mar 29 22:55
schestowitz	Looks almost like a placeholder	Mar 29 22:56
schestowitz	I think the same goes for the Ou shill	Mar 29 22:56
schestowitz	One of the Microsoft gang in ZD… others being Bott, that Microsoft employee Carol (former), and other obvious ones	Mar 29 22:56
schestowitz	They get paid to provoke	Mar 29 22:56
Balrog_	certainly	Mar 29 22:56
schestowitz	Paid by # of comments and such.	Mar 29 22:56
Balrog_	heh	Mar 29 22:56
schestowitz	So stuff like “Linux thrown to the curb” or whatever gets posted	Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_	I wonder why so many of the comments are pro-windows biased….	Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	Blankenhorm almost begged people to participate	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	Their job depends on it	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	But that’s not reporting	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	Balrog: why?	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	Because they select people like that	Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_	does http://www.roughlydrafted.com/ work?	Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_	I get a database error	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	They won’t select strongly pro-Linux people to have blogs	Mar 29 22:57
schestowitz	Roughly Eran posted many good things recently	Mar 29 22:58
schestowitz	maybe overloaded	Mar 29 22:58
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 22:58
schestowitz	Times out for me, I think	Mar 29 22:58
Balrog_	he is right in many ways …. though I can see Apple at 25-33% of the market and Linux taking the rest, if MS were to fail totally	Mar 29 22:58
schestowitz	He sometimes writes about Linux	Mar 29 22:58
Balrog_	then Apple would have to work together	Mar 29 22:59
schestowitz	Usually spot-on	Mar 29 22:59
schestowitz	Took the piss on Mono too	Mar 29 22:59
Balrog_	that’s about what he says, if you read a little “between the lines”	Mar 29 22:59
schestowitz	BN has more visitors than RD Magazine	Mar 29 22:59
schestowitz	But he didn’t post much in 2009	Mar 29 22:59
Balrog_	that’s because BN has more recent posts	Mar 29 22:59
Balrog_	more frequent *	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	But archives get the most traffic	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	Maybe 80%	Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_	archives are very interesting	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	“Failed to Connect”	Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_	once you start reading you don’t want to stop	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	Wankered by traffic I reckon.	Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_	yeah, I wonder what’s up	Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_	probably the PHP database is down	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	Our return rate is high	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	About 5 pages per visitor	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	On average	Mar 29 23:00
schestowitz	Visit, not visitor	Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_	his is probably too, but less frequent posts	Mar 29 23:01
schestowitz	Some sites are at about 1 per visitor	Mar 29 23:01
Balrog_	so if I have an RSS feed, I won’t go back unless there’s new content	Mar 29 23:01
schestowitz	I like to think that my stuff won’t be read for one day and be shelved	Mar 29 23:01
schestowitz	So I inter-link the stories and never ever repeat stories if I can avoid it	Mar 29 23:01
Balrog_	heh, doesn’t work that way	Mar 29 23:02
Balrog_	but inter linking is very good	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	Sometimes it does	Mar 29 23:02
Balrog_	just use outside sources!	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	You give the short story and a link	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	The outside stories can be found	Mar 29 23:02
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	Just need to crawl past archives	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	It’s convenient	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	[cref POST-ID]	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	External would take time to fetch	Mar 29 23:02
schestowitz	Also to test	Mar 29 23:03
Balrog_	yeah, but external gives extra credibility	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	I write quickly, so the though of researching whilst writing is dreadful	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	Balrog: yes, I know.	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	Plurality in links	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	I concede it	Mar 29 23:03
Balrog_	very important when you have 1000′s of detractors ready to attack.	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	Also..	Mar 29 23:03
schestowitz	If I have links to BackWeb-MS lawsuit	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Then I can have one post with 20 ext-links	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Then, I can link to this post	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Which is like an anchor	Mar 29 23:04
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	It also opens up with an intro-summary	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Rather than choose an arbitrary article	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Like TomTom	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	I wrote a lonk summary	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	With about 40 external links	Mar 29 23:04
Balrog_	I like a wikipedia-style system with endnotes too	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	Now I just link to it as main anchor to TomTom suit	Mar 29 23:04
Balrog_	(ref style)	Mar 29 23:04
schestowitz	There’s one for OIN joining too	Mar 29 23:05
Balrog_	more work :/ … but helps	Mar 29 23:05
schestowitz	I gobble em up	Mar 29 23:05
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 23:05
schestowitz	Wikipedia is polished	Mar 29 23:05
schestowitz	More time, more people	Mar 29 23:05
Balrog_	certainly	Mar 29 23:05
Balrog_	also, is there any repository of Comes vs MS data that will be up for a while that’s not on your site?	Mar 29 23:06
Balrog_	(because your site tends to be politically charged, and pointing pro-MS people at it isn’t always a good first impression)	Mar 29 23:07
Balrog_	well, politically meaning anti-MS	Mar 29 23:07
schestowitz	There are other mirrors	Mar 29 23:07
schestowitz	People can judge the evidence	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	PDFs.	Mar 29 23:08
Balrog_	yes, I know….	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	Nothing ‘charged’ there.. nor faked	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	Same with the posts. “Charged” = honest/POV	Mar 29 23:08
Balrog_	I understand. Not everyone feels that way	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	Confrmist=non-charged	Mar 29 23:08
Balrog_	Like I had someone who pushed ASP.NET strongly	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	There’s an interesting hypothesis on papers and politics	Mar 29 23:08
Balrog_	(and MS products)	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	The big papers set the trneds	Mar 29 23:08
schestowitz	You can’t deviate from them	Mar 29 23:09
Balrog_	and didn’t want to hear of Conficker or problems	Mar 29 23:09
Balrog_	with ASP.NET and MS products	Mar 29 23:09
schestowitz	meaning that if NYT says there are WoMD, then local papers must agree	Mar 29 23:09
schestowitz	Not agreeing or refuting would get the writers in trouble.	Mar 29 23:09
schestowitz	It’s a consent system	Mar 29 23:09
Balrog_	heh	Mar 29 23:09
Balrog_	yeah	Mar 29 23:09
schestowitz	That is what make the PR(opaganda) powerhouse so powerful and effective	Mar 29 23:10
schestowitz	People are taught to admire certain publications that never admit a mistake	Mar 29 23:10
Balrog_	unfortunately, everyone does PR	Mar 29 23:10
schestowitz	Maybe pubs out there deserve apology/correction for Massive Mistakes	Mar 29 23:10
schestowitz	Same in Vietnam war, AFAIK	Mar 29 23:10
Balrog_	(every middle to large sized company)	Mar 29 23:10
Balrog_	if you don’t do it, you’re left out in the cold	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	I recently learned that Orwell accused the BBC of spreading propaganda (he worked there)	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	Balrog: same with lobbying	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	It doesn’t make it right	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	Same with accounting fraud	Mar 29 23:11
Balrog_	sure doesn’t.	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	Microsoft judtifies its crimes by saying others do it too	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	Balrog: Due does	Mar 29 23:11
Balrog_	PR isn’t as bad as lobbying or account fraud though; there /can/ be good PR	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	Sure does	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	IRS also	Mar 29 23:11
Balrog_	thourh it’s rare	Mar 29 23:11
Balrog_	though *	Mar 29 23:11
schestowitz	PR is about deception	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	There can be gentle PR	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	It’s still just a new name for propaganda (Bernays)	Mar 29 23:12
Balrog_	PR can be about correcting wrongs that some idiot caused	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	It is about deceiving the masses	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	Laerning women to smoke and sych	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	*Such	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	nothing ethical about it	Mar 29 23:12
schestowitz	Unless profit and shopping culture is seen as benign	Mar 29 23:12
Balrog_	or causing the masses to realize that the leadership is not bad anymore	Mar 29 23:12
Balrog_	rare though	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	Assming the world is an infinite garbage dumop	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	Which “idiots”?	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	Dissent?	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	Dissent is democratising force.	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	PR is buying influence	Mar 29 23:13
schestowitz	Rule of the gold… ‘golden’ rule	Mar 29 23:13
Balrog_	but I’ve seen a case where an idiot messed stuff up with a certain [small] organization and a form of small-scale PR was necessary	Mar 29 23:13
Balrog_	(idiot == someone who doesn’t care for anyone other than himself, here)	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Concrete example?	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Name?	Mar 29 23:14
Balrog_	this is on a very small scale	Mar 29 23:14
Balrog_	<<personally involved	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Novell can justify its own PR too	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	It hired a firm in YoRkshirre to game the Web	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Nothing ethical	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Greyhats at best	Mar 29 23:14
Balrog_	Novell is trying to fool people into thinking their tech is good	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Justified? I think not	Mar 29 23:14
Balrog_	certainly not	Mar 29 23:14
schestowitz	Novell’s tech is rubbish	Mar 29 23:15
schestowitz	second-class at everything	Mar 29 23:15
schestowitz	Microsoft turns to politics again: http://undertheinfluence.nationaljou… http://www.politico.com/news/storie…	Mar 29 23:15
Balrog_	when is it? when a company really changes their ways, you need to help people realize that’s the case	Mar 29 23:15
oiaohm	I don’t think MS is going to be happy.	Mar 29 23:15
oiaohm	Video card markers are slowly taking over media content.	Mar 29 23:15
Balrog_	makers *	Mar 29 23:15
oiaohm	So ending codec’s as a way to control market.	Mar 29 23:16
schestowitz	DRM on board?	Mar 29 23:16
oiaohm	video stream decoding on board.	Mar 29 23:16
Balrog_	yes, I know :/	Mar 29 23:16
schestowitz	“Content” is a terrible word for arts	Mar 29 23:16
oiaohm	Yep MS wants there codecs to run well.	Mar 29 23:16
Balrog_	there was recently talk about vpdau on #mplayer	Mar 29 23:17
oiaohm	Wants drm to work.	Mar 29 23:17
oiaohm	It will have to go into video card. So video card markers have to be licence to use codec.	Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_	vpdau is probably open-source though.	Mar 29 23:17
oiaohm	Really stuffs MS ideas up badly.	Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_	oiaohm: you can’t use a system like CUDA	Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_	where a software decoder runs on the GPU?	Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_	(or OpenCL)	Mar 29 23:18
oiaohm	CUDA does not have audio syncing.	Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_	CUDA is just computations on GPU	Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_	you write the decoder	Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_	the GPU runs it	Mar 29 23:18
oiaohm	Video card markers will be wanting to provide the decoders as part of there drivers.	Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_	probably ……	Mar 29 23:19
oiaohm	So its optmised correctly for there cards.	Mar 29 23:19
Balrog_	though I can see ffmpeg / mplayer / gstreamer support such acceleration	Mar 29 23:19
oiaohm	Yep MS ends up again having to licence to device makers not end users.	Mar 29 23:19
oiaohm	Problem with device makers they are buying millions of licences at once.	Mar 29 23:19
oiaohm	And expect them darn cheep.	Mar 29 23:19
Balrog_	MS license to device makers?	Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_	you mean WMA/WMV codecs?	Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_	but isn’t MPEG/h.264 more popular nowadays?	Mar 29 23:20
oiaohm	VC-1	Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_	why not MPEG4/H.264?	Mar 29 23:20
oiaohm	The one MS got used on blueray.	Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_	I know it still has patents, but it tends to be better	Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_	I heard that blueray uses h.264 by default	Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_	(mpeg4 **)	Mar 29 23:21
oiaohm	There are two formats can can be used on blueray.	Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_	AVC *	Mar 29 23:21
oiaohm	h264 and VC-1	Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_	or MPGE-2	Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_	MPEG *	Mar 29 23:21
oiaohm	Also h264 is also being included in video card drivers.	Mar 29 23:23
oiaohm	How to solve the patent problem.	Mar 29 23:23
oiaohm	for end users.	Mar 29 23:23
oiaohm	Have hardware makers deal with them.	Mar 29 23:23
Balrog_	h264 is a good codec, but for the patents	Mar 29 23:24
oiaohm	Also screws patent holders quite well. Since hardware markers can take the hard line of either provide the patents cheep or we support something else.	Mar 29 23:24
oiaohm	When you are talking about millions of end users you are not really in a good location to disagree.	Mar 29 23:25
schestowitz	Sad news for Ubuntu on SunBlade 100′s with Condor Users < http://switchingtolinux.blogspot.com/2009/03/sa… >	Mar 29 23:25
Balrog_	according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Com… , h.264 is superior	Mar 29 23:25
Balrog_	also there are free implementations (maybe not patent free, but free)	Mar 29 23:25
oiaohm	There are free implementations of VC-1.	Mar 29 23:26
Balrog_	re-compile condor?	Mar 29 23:26
oiaohm	Both locked by patents.	Mar 29 23:26
Balrog_	yeah, but are they as good as the reference implementation?	Mar 29 23:26
oiaohm	Yes.	Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_	hmm ok.	Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_	still, more people use h.264	Mar 29 23:27
oiaohm	Because one of the open source ones is the reference implementation.	Mar 29 23:27
oiaohm	That MS had to give up to get on blueray.	Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_	ahh…which one?	Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_	explain ‘give up’?	Mar 29 23:27
oiaohm	Yes under a nasty licence must pay patents	Mar 29 23:28
Balrog_		Mar 29 23:28
Balrog_	well the ‘fee’ is $1 per encoder / decoder sold, but that doesn’t say anything for foss	Mar 29 23:28
Balrog_	(I may be a bit off with that number)	Mar 29 23:28
oiaohm	That is right.	Mar 29 23:29
oiaohm	$1 per device to cover patents.	Mar 29 23:29
oiaohm	Yes device markers can really negotate hard.	Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_	yeah. But how can that work with foss?	Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_	foss is given away, so you can’t charge royalties….	Mar 29 23:30
oiaohm	Its like freetype and ffmpeg.	Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_	yeah, grey area	Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_	I still use it … the x264 encoder is so much better than most ‘official’ ones	Mar 29 23:31
oiaohm	Remember its not a encoder or decoder until its built into a binary.	Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_	ah heh	Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_	well I build from source	Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_	macports here, gentoo at school	Mar 29 23:31
oiaohm	Once coverted into an application then you are up for patent money.	Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_	so what? You have to include a compiler with your app? :O	Mar 29 23:32
oiaohm	If you are in the wrong countries.	Mar 29 23:32
oiaohm	Sooner the patent system dies on software the better.	Mar 29 23:32
oiaohm	Hopefully redhats plan works.	Mar 29 23:32
Balrog_	yeah	Mar 29 23:32
oiaohm	Put a wall of patents around open source.	Mar 29 23:32
Balrog_	and hopefully MS vs. Tom-Tom helps (MS must lose)	Mar 29 23:33
oiaohm	So locking closed source guys out the open source market.	Mar 29 23:33
oiaohm	So getting them screaming there heads of to kill the patent system.	Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_	did you know that HDTV in the US is patented?	Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_	http://www.mpegla.com/atsc/	Mar 29 23:33
oiaohm	Yep	Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_	old-fashioned TV was analog	Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_	idk how you could patent that	Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_	probably some component of the circuit, but there would be a way to work around it	Mar 29 23:34
oiaohm	Analog TV was patented.	Mar 29 23:35
oiaohm	Quite completely.	Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_	hmm … interesting	Mar 29 23:35
oiaohm	Over 3000 patents in a tv set.	Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_	wow	Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_	did you read about the whole mess with Farnsworth and Sarnoff?	Mar 29 23:35
oiaohm	Nop	Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_	(Farnsworth getting ripped off by RCA)	Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_	take a look	Mar 29 23:36
Balrog_	http://en.wikipedia.or…	Mar 29 23:36
Balrog_	even though he won the patent case and got royalties, he never got rich	Mar 29 23:37
Balrog_	(thanks to the power of large corporations like RCA)	Mar 29 23:37
oiaohm	That is what is going to happen to most patent holders.	Mar 29 23:38
oiaohm	You cannot get a good deal when dealing with really large enitys.	Mar 29 23:38
Balrog_	yeah, unfortunately	Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_	read about Harold Pitcairn as well	Mar 29 23:39
oiaohm	MS problem with Linux.	Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_	he was the main inventor behind helicopter technology	Mar 29 23:39
oiaohm	Linux is targeting the large groups.	Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_	got patents, but got ripped off, and the government supported those who ripped him off	Mar 29 23:39
oiaohm	So force MS into the market where the profit is not.	Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_	yeah.	Mar 29 23:40
oiaohm	MS cannot follow Linux into the motherboard.	Mar 29 23:40
oiaohm	It goes in there its dead.	Mar 29 23:40
oiaohm	I am supprised motherboard companies have not done this yet shipping with like Ubuntu disks.	Mar 29 23:40
Balrog_	well, not everyone builds computers	Mar 29 23:41
oiaohm	So there users cannot be accuesed of being software pirates it was aquired with a OS.	Mar 29 23:41
oiaohm	That move would be the max MS stuff up.	Mar 29 23:41
Balrog_	PC manufacturers should be forced to stop bundling windows.	Mar 29 23:42
Balrog_	Let a user buy a PC without OS and get a free Linux disc, or pay $70 or so for an OEM windows disc	Mar 29 23:42
schestowitz	http://www.stefanoforenza… “Ubuntu’s community manager clamorously fails at explaining the values of having a community, or opening up to a community. The intent was (probably) good, the concept expressed terribly bad. I won’t read his book .”	Mar 29 23:43
schestowitz	http://sacha.labourey.com/2009/03/… “I am leaving Red Hat. Onward. “	Mar 29 23:43
Balrog_	heh, mono is being unused so it offers to remove it	Mar 29 23:44
Balrog_	good idea	Mar 29 23:44
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.67.224) has joined #boycottnovell		Mar 29 23:48
schestowitz	Solaris has a nice wallpaper: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.p…	Mar 29 23:49
_Hicham_	it is not as good as fedora’s	Mar 29 23:50
_Hicham_	fedora has really great artwork	Mar 29 23:50
schestowitz	http://blog.hydrasystemsllc.com/20… (A Short Review of OpenSolaris 2008.11)	Mar 29 23:52
schestowitz	Question: should I mention Solaris and Symbian in BN?	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	Because I try to avoid giving them visibility	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	They compete with the GPL	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	_Hicham_: I have some new Fedora vids to show you	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	Actually, Michael made em	Mar 29 23:53
Balrog_	Solaris, yeah, because of Java at least	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?…	Mar 29 23:53
Balrog_	Symbian, not yet	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	He has a large flat planel	Mar 29 23:53
schestowitz	Bigger than mine	Mar 29 23:54
schestowitz	*panel	Mar 29 23:54
schestowitz	But if I show OpenSolaris people might try it— not good for GPL and GNU/Linux	Mar 29 23:54
Balrog_	what about Nexenta?	Mar 29 23:55
schestowitz	Symbian has Nokia’s shadow on it… with softare patents, DRM, and utter junk…	Mar 29 23:55
schestowitz	Balrog: what about it?	Mar 29 23:55
Balrog_	it’s GNU/Solaris	Mar 29 23:55
schestowitz	yes	Mar 29 23:55
Balrog_	technically	Mar 29 23:55
schestowitz	CDDL	Mar 29 23:55
Balrog_	well the userland is gpl	Mar 29 23:55
oiaohm	Everyone is forgetting about the effects of displacement.	Mar 29 23:57
oiaohm	Nokia and others are starting to use the same OS types as the netbooks.	Mar 29 23:57
schestowitz	Yes	Mar 29 23:57
_Hicham_	really oiaohm?	Mar 29 23:57
oiaohm	There market is not what you call going perfect.	Mar 29 23:57
schestowitz	But Nokia is not a party that can be trusted	Mar 29 23:57
schestowitz	Better to push GNU/Linux for now	Mar 29 23:57
schestowitz	At least it’s GPL	Mar 29 23:57
schestowitz	GPLv3 would be nice… hurd	Mar 29 23:57
oiaohm	So there is a risk that Nokia could be displaced into making netbooks.	Mar 29 23:58
oiaohm	Not what MS would want.	Mar 29 23:58
oiaohm	Then end of phone/desktop OS divide could be on us.	Mar 29 23:58
schestowitz	There’s Maemo	Mar 29 23:59
schestowitz	Though the community took cntrol	Mar 29 23:59
oiaohm	Nokia low end phones are not selling. High end smart phones are still selling but numbers don’t make up for it.	Mar 29 23:59
schestowitz	Nokia in a tizzy..	Mar 29 23:59