EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

04.04.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 3rd, 2009 – Part 3

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:25 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

GNOME Gedit

Enter the IRC channel now

To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

iwmw you just said indefinitely that “he and his partner” Apr 03 17:04
schestowitz Yes, not married yet Apr 03 17:05
schestowitz He’s straight, as am I Apr 03 17:05
schestowitz But here in the UK they say “partner” Apr 03 17:05
iwmw … makes no sense Apr 03 17:05
iwmw saying “partner” Apr 03 17:05
schestowitz Which I find odd because of matrimony terminology that changes Apr 03 17:05
_Hicham_ parnter, :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D Apr 03 17:05
schestowitz iwmw: well, that’s what it’s called in the UK Apr 03 17:06
_Hicham_ the UK is weird Apr 03 17:06
schestowitz Even for heterogeneous couples. Apr 03 17:06
iwmw yeah, uk seems to go the wrong way Apr 03 17:06
schestowitz In the UK we have “Virgin Mobile” Apr 03 17:06
iwmw wtf is dat? Apr 03 17:06
_Hicham_ do u have gay marriage in the UK? Apr 03 17:06
schestowitz _Hicham_: I think so Apr 03 17:06
iwmw wtf Apr 03 17:06
jose schestowitz, i found it Apr 03 17:07
schestowitz Actually, that is the case, but I don’t know what welfare is offered Apr 03 17:07
jose the analogy was “horses out of the barn” Apr 03 17:07
jose >> The .NET framework contains the latest developer platform for the future, and it must be licensed like Windows. Subsets have gone about as far as they should go in the standards bodies, but we need a compact subset for phones and TVs. It was noted that we have to be careful because once the horses are out, they are out forever. At the right royalty, we can have discussions around technology beyond this. Apr 03 17:07
PetoKraus it’s not marriage Apr 03 17:07
PetoKraus it’s registered partnership Apr 03 17:07
schestowitz jose: when is it from? Apr 03 17:07
schestowitz Comes? Apr 03 17:07
jose 1999 Apr 03 17:08
schestowitz jose: is it the Alex thread? Apr 03 17:08
iwmw .net… the latest dev platform for the future.. Apr 03 17:08
schestowitz With Amir? Apr 03 17:08
iwmw it’s a joke Apr 03 17:08
schestowitz Cause I think I have it as text Apr 03 17:08
schestowitz About Linux haveing over 50% Apr 03 17:08
jose i understand horses to mean patent grants.. but it can be trade secrets and everything else IP Apr 03 17:08
jose http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/ms-and-floss/ Apr 03 17:09
schestowitz jose: I have the text Apr 03 17:09
schestowitz I see it in http://meandubuntu.wordpress.com/… Apr 03 17:09
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/11/mi… Apr 03 17:09
jose that particular email had a lot of juicy bits Apr 03 17:09
Omar87 schestowitz: Have you heard of Jay Freeman? Apr 03 17:10
schestowitz BBC fined £150k over Manuelgate < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009… > Apr 03 17:10
schestowitz Omar87: no.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ste… Apr 03 17:11
Omar87 schestowitz: He’s a genius!! Apr 03 17:12
schestowitz Balrog: http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/-carn…  (Carnegie Mellon tries to buck sliding trend of women studying computer science) Apr 03 17:12
Omar87 schestowitz: But I’m not talking about the one you posted. Apr 03 17:12
schestowitz Omar87: this guy? http://www.saurik.com/id/1 Apr 03 17:13
Omar87 schestowitz: I’m talking about the one who pwned the iPhone with his Cydia. Apr 03 17:13
Omar87 schestowitz: Yup, that guy. ;) Apr 03 17:13
schestowitz That would be him, then. Apr 03 17:13
schestowitz New Microsoft Office vulnerability already exploited: http://www.heise.de/english… Apr 03 17:17
schestowitz I’m rarely a GNOME users these days, but 3.0 looks promising: http://www.heise.de/english/n… Apr 03 17:18
*NeonF|oss has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Apr 03 17:18
_Hicham_ great is they move to webkit Apr 03 17:19
schestowitz rumours months ago said the same about mozila Apr 03 17:20
jose schestowitz, thanks.. i’ll be leaving soon. Apr 03 17:22
schestowitz Bloomberg concurs with NYT’s assessment about IBM buying Sun: http://www.denverpost.com/busin… Apr 03 17:22
schestowitz What will this mean to OOo vs Symphony? Apr 03 17:22
jose ooo is the better brand and product Apr 03 17:22
jose it’s updated Apr 03 17:22
jose how about mysql? Apr 03 17:23
jose ibm has a ton of dbs Apr 03 17:23
jose now +1 Apr 03 17:23
schestowitz They still miss the point about race to zero _for acquit ion_, not service, maintenance, etc… *sigh* http://ostatic.com/blog/does-open-source-… It’s the same for book publishers and papers Apr 03 17:24
jose if ibm doesn’t invest similarly to sun, people will likely fork Apr 03 17:25
schestowitz jose: but OOo has already been grabed by MS Apr 03 17:25
schestowitz OO-XML Apr 03 17:25
schestowitz Or go-OOXML Apr 03 17:25
schestowitz They can try to use Novell to play with *GPL and compete with the /real/ OOo Apr 03 17:25
schestowitz Novell will be their slaves Apr 03 17:25
jose that’s just a fork.. to add MS’s embracing into it Apr 03 17:25
jose that can do that to any product out there .. will do that to any foss product that gains tractions Apr 03 17:26
jose (drop last “s”) Apr 03 17:26
*schestowitz on phone Apr 03 17:26
schestowitz IBM Sun acquisition to be announced today? < http://blog.internetnews.com/skerne… > Apr 03 17:32
Balrog schestowitz: did you see the thing that happenen in France? http://news.slashdot.org/article.pl?si… Apr 03 17:34
schestowitz yes Apr 03 17:37
schestowitz http://opendotdotdot.blogspot.com/2009… Apr 03 17:37
schestowitz Stealing Commodities  http://www.schneier.com/blog/archiv… Apr 03 17:39
schestowitz “According to Google Analytics, 7.04 percent of the visitors to Cutts’s own blog (during the last 30 days) used Chrome.  ” http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/2009/04/03/… Does Google Analytics disclose global numbers for the servuce? If so, it would be comprehensive, but still JS-dependent  (thus discriminating against Linux) Apr 03 17:42
*_Hicham_ has quit (“Leaving.”) Apr 03 17:46
schestowitz “Don’t forget about Microsoft buying Novell and now owns the copyright to Unix and will use this to disband Linux.” < http://news.cnet.com/8301-17… > Apr 03 17:47
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.11.233) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:00
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.11.233) has left #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:00
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@41.249.11.233) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:00
*jose has quit (“Leaving”) Apr 03 18:08
*jose (n=jose@adsl-233-77-124.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:25
jose schestowitz, http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastruc… quoted some interesting things. you may have already gone over that (100 times). I added comments. but there is one thing i wanted to bring up… Apr 03 18:26
jose Microsoft may change the internal components and add to it, but it seems that they have remained with dotnet for a long time and will continue to invest in that general framework. Apr 03 18:27
jose if so, this would coincide with their major patent push/investments Apr 03 18:27
jose i don’t think that is coincidence. Apr 03 18:28
jose and to refresh mind, look at this comment for some ms quotes http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story… Apr 03 18:28
zer0c00l too bad :( http://twitter.com/StudentPartners Apr 03 18:28
*iwmw has quit (Client Quit) Apr 03 18:29
schestowitz *ping* MinceR http://www.realdeal.hu/20090403/minist… Apr 03 18:29
zer0c00l their latest twitter update “Fun, fun, fun. How to distribute 560 Office 2007 Trial among students?” Apr 03 18:29
schestowitz “Under a general agreement on public procurement procedures, the same amount will be allocated for the acquisition of Microsoft and Novell products as for open source software, said Ferenc Baja. The sum available is 12 billion forints each, he added.” Apr 03 18:29
schestowitz jose: MS adds dresses to the Trojan horses Apr 03 18:30
schestowitz If people shout, they’ll put more lipstick on the horse (Trojan) Apr 03 18:30
jose carla’s piece quotes someone talking about ms’ continual changing of framework details.. or at least of coming up with new monikers on a regular basis Apr 03 18:30
schestowitz Until people are kept stupid and swallow the poison pill Apr 03 18:30
schestowitz MS won’t bark until it’s spread widely Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz Like  FAT Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz Even in embedded Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz Mono is not yet big in embedded Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz MS wants all mobile Linux to run Mono too Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz Then, it’ll turn the tables Apr 03 18:31
jose it’s not big in foss world Apr 03 18:31
Omar87 lol! Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz Carla doesn’t like mono Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz But she;s LT editor Apr 03 18:31
schestowitz So she has to seem impartial Apr 03 18:31
Omar87 There’s a funny story my friend has just told me.. Apr 03 18:32
schestowitz zer0c00l: MS astroturfs twitter Apr 03 18:32
jose i expected she wouldn’t link to your april 1st story.. and she didn’t.. probably a good call even though i thought it was funny Apr 03 18:32
schestowitz See some recent posts in BN about it Apr 03 18:32
Omar87 The .NET club at my previous university is arranging a meeting on Tuesday. Apr 03 18:32
*kentma1 (n=user@ellandroad.demon.co.uk) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:34
jose what is the usual person’s motivation to partake or start a dotnet club? Apr 03 18:34
Omar87 When I read about that I got kind of disgusted, but my friend told that they actually him and the chairman of the club (who’s also my friend) not only don’t use Windows, they don’t even use .NET itself! :D Apr 03 18:34
*kentma has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Apr 03 18:35
Omar87 but my friend told “me” that.. Apr 03 18:35
Omar87 But they kept the name “.NET club” because that’s only thing allowed in the university. Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz New “Novell” video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJBis6-HeqI Apr 03 18:36
_Hicham_ MS want to port everything to .NET Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz Yes Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz .MS Apr 03 18:36
_Hicham_ there will .NET version of everyone Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz On the NET Apr 03 18:36
_Hicham_ schestowitz.NET Apr 03 18:36
Omar87 They tried their best to start a different club, but their efforts all went in vein. Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz Luckily, they fail Apr 03 18:36
schestowitz So they pay Novell to shill for them Apr 03 18:37
Omar87 lol Apr 03 18:37
schestowitz The danger is that people don’t realise that Novell is just anti-Java weapon Apr 03 18:37
Omar87 schestowitz: If not even anti-FOSS all together.. -_- Apr 03 18:37
schestowitz FOSS the MS way Apr 03 18:38
schestowitz .NET Apr 03 18:38
schestowitz Silver  Lie.. Apr 03 18:38
schestowitz You get the pic Apr 03 18:38
Omar87 Exactly. Apr 03 18:39
_Hicham_ Java was is gonna kill them Apr 03 18:39
schestowitz IBM’s Java Apr 03 18:39
_Hicham_ that is why they spend all of that money to create .NET Apr 03 18:39
schestowitz It’ll have more resources Apr 03 18:39
schestowitz +Eclipse (IBM) Apr 03 18:39
schestowitz Microsoft is poisoning Eclipse too, though Apr 03 18:39
Omar87 And, MS’s FOSS can be simply summed up two words “No FOSS”. Apr 03 18:39
schestowitz It’s POSS Apr 03 18:40
_Hicham_ IBM is the official sponsor of Java, and not Sun Apr 03 18:40
schestowitz Not “peace of shitty shit” Apr 03 18:40
schestowitz *piece Apr 03 18:40
jose java and msft Apr 03 18:40
schestowitz But “Pseudo open source softare” Apr 03 18:40
jose on yahoo delayed quotes.. they were each at 18.74 for a little while just now Apr 03 18:40
schestowitz NOVL just been downgradede Apr 03 18:41
jose not significant but kind of like a solar eclipse Apr 03 18:41
schestowitz I’ll post about it Apr 03 18:41
zer0c00l Omar87, : In my school they started it as Microsoft .Net campus club, then now they are using innocent kids to spread virtually all software stolen by M$ Apr 03 18:42
_Hicham_ Eclipse vs Visual Studio Apr 03 18:42
jose wonder if the prices crossed at some other point Apr 03 18:42
_Hicham_ can Eclipse beat Visual Studio? Apr 03 18:42
MinceR schestowitz: pong Apr 03 18:43
zer0c00l _Hicham_, why can’t? Apr 03 18:43
Omar87 zer0c00l: Yeah. Apr 03 18:44
_Hicham_ I don’t know, just asking Apr 03 18:44
MinceR schestowitz: so they’ve still locked up 12 billion for microsoft Apr 03 18:44
MinceR i guess ballmer could only afford half the bribe this time Apr 03 18:45
*macabe_ (n=macabe@cpe-67-240-216-105.rochester.res.rr.com) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 18:45
*macabe has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Apr 03 18:45
Omar87 zer0c00l: Unfortunately, just the right strategy to hypnotize the minds of little kids, no wonder how we find this number of M$ dolls everywhere in the world.. Apr 03 18:45
schestowitz MinceR: maybe they’ll merge with Novell Apr 03 18:47
schestowitz It’s like they invest in the same companies… 2 being the same Apr 03 18:47
MinceR indeed Apr 03 18:47
schestowitz .NET Apr 03 18:47
schestowitz Anyway it goes Apr 03 18:47
MinceR but i thought it was 12 billion for m$+novell and 12 billion for FLOSS Apr 03 18:47
schestowitz Ha Apr 03 18:47
MinceR it would be funny if someone else bought novell Apr 03 18:48
schestowitz Predictable Apr 03 18:48
schestowitz ewwek survey sez so Apr 03 18:48
schestowitz Most likely tech company not to survive 2009: Novell Apr 03 18:48
schestowitz Would make my ‘job’ (hobby) easier Apr 03 18:48
schestowitz Just tracking the name banner, e.g. “Microsoft” Apr 03 18:48
MinceR :) Apr 03 18:50
balzac schestowitz: you know they’d get some money invested and keep a skeleton crew just to stay in business like SCO Apr 03 18:54
balzac But it would be nice to see Novell completely marginalized and irrelevant like SCO Apr 03 18:54
balzac You don’t hear much from the Darl McBride anymore. Apr 03 18:55
schestowitz balzac: yeah, something like that.. Apr 03 19:01
schestowitz Just keep the MSFTers in palce Apr 03 19:01
schestowitz To spread the Mono Apr 03 19:01
schestowitz Novell has already fired many of the Germans (SUSE coders) Apr 03 19:01
schestowitz balzac: McBribe[sic] is in the shadows now. GL hardly mentions him. Apr 03 19:01
balzac Those devs can do penance by coding for the Hurd Kernel for 3 months each. Apr 03 19:02
balzac jk Apr 03 19:02
_Hicham_ they will be employed by redhat for sure Apr 03 19:04
schestowitz Aye Apr 03 19:05
schestowitz Likely…. Apr 03 19:05
schestowitz Weaken Novell=strengthen Red Hat Apr 03 19:05
schestowitz =Move Novell devs to Red hat Apr 03 19:05
schestowitz [and away from the patent treason] Apr 03 19:05
balzac yep Apr 03 19:05
schestowitz That’s the idea anyway. Let Novell rot with its ‘interop’ deal Apr 03 19:06
MinceR how can we move RH away from patent treason? Apr 03 19:06
balzac wash the “white hand of Sauron” off their foreheads Apr 03 19:06
schestowitz Linspire has been dead for almost a year now Apr 03 19:06
MinceR especially after they pushed sw patents in the EU? Apr 03 19:06
schestowitz We can mark the anniversary in 2 months and 3 weeks Apr 03 19:06
schestowitz Did you see the Linspire storm? Apr 03 19:06
schestowitz Check out the latest from Linspire: http://kevincarmony.blogspot.com/2… Meow! Apr 03 19:07
balzac MinceR: civil disobedience Apr 03 19:07
balzac infringe on their patents in a way which breaks their indemnification agreement Apr 03 19:07
balzac make a proprietary infringement to step outside RH’s indemnification protection zone Apr 03 19:08
balzac make any kind of infringement to offend MS/Novell Apr 03 19:08
MinceR i don’t quite understand Apr 03 19:08
balzac and make it clear that you’re doing it on purpose Apr 03 19:08
balzac infringe on software patent claims deliberately in whatever way is required to call the bluff of their legal threat. Apr 03 19:09
jose Too bad this posting http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… has 5 out of 10 stars. [i'm pretending to be on the gullible side] Apr 03 19:17
MinceR wait… RH has an indemnification agreement with somebody? Apr 03 19:20
balzac MinceR: their agreement protects everyone who doesn’t use GPLv3 Apr 03 19:20
balzac who does, i mean Apr 03 19:21
balzac ok don’t know exactly Apr 03 19:21
MinceR that sounds pretty evil Apr 03 19:21
balzac but software patents are crap and first civil disobedience should be used to prove the ridiculousness of the proprietary covenant Apr 03 19:21
MinceR but it does fall in line with RH’s sw patent mania Apr 03 19:21
balzac and then civil disobedience should be used to prove the ridiculousness of the FOSS patent collective covenants as well Apr 03 19:22
balzac no software patents at all Apr 03 19:22
jose anything new and interesting about conficker? Apr 03 19:23
*zer0c00l has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Apr 03 19:24
schestowitz jose: millions of PCs are infected Apr 03 19:33
jose i’m curious about the new instructions the bots were going to be receiving Apr 03 19:34
schestowitz Maybe it’s Microsoft experiment with supercomputing Apr 03 19:42
schestowitz Got to do some testing before taking on Linux on BlueGene, no? Apr 03 19:43
jose Instruction #1: popup message “did you hear? Windows just took over the #1 spot in supercomputing; it also has a lower TCO; click here for the full scoop” Apr 03 19:50
jose if they tell enough people the scoop enough times, they will take the supercomputing title. that’s their plan. Apr 03 19:51
jose plan b is to buy out top500 website.. or whoever owns the top spot. Apr 03 19:52
jose plan c is to sue all linux-using entrants. Apr 03 19:54
schestowitz jose: I do a post that quotes you Apr 03 19:57
schestowitz Can you proofread with me? Apr 03 19:57
jose what is the link Apr 03 19:57
schestowitz jose: read http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/03/m… Apr 03 20:03
jose let me say this.. if certain people are awake, you will get some criticism that “sun supports ooxml” etc. Apr 03 20:06
jose “Microsoft has already used Novell to harm ODF, which Sun and IBM promote.” Apr 03 20:07
jose I was going to say that Dan might bring up again proof on patents usable against mono… Apr 03 20:08
jose but some of those comments certain suggest Microsoft has their plans. Apr 03 20:09
jose “Another is the patent trap which Mono has become, as Jose explained in this LinuxToday comment that cites private E-mails from Microsoft.” Apr 03 20:09
*tacone (n=tacone@93-32-186-60.ip34.fastwebnet.it) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 20:09
tacone ls -l Apr 03 20:09
schestowitz C:\> Apr 03 20:09
jose that Lt reply is about microsoft stating the key value in patents/ip to protect against clones Apr 03 20:09
tacone schestowitz: lol Apr 03 20:10
jose so that might be a decent rebuttal Apr 03 20:10
schestowitz jose: is that a typo corrected? Apr 03 20:10
jose nope Apr 03 20:10
schestowitz \Because I’ve been lenient recently and proofread poorly. Apr 03 20:11
jose i couldn’t help but anticipate the reader comment discussion Apr 03 20:11
schestowitz All the posts about mono get flooded by mono fans Apr 03 20:11
schestowitz I can’t help b but wondering if they use communication means to send some opposition so these posts. It used to be like this with GNOME. Apr 03 20:12
jose sorry schestowitz, but no typos or similar errors caught my attention. Apr 03 20:13
schestowitz That’s good, I’m surprised Apr 03 20:13
jose some things might not be correct grammatically but i’m not one to know for sure Apr 03 20:14
schestowitz jose: site traffic more than doubled and I suspect that TomTom woke some people up Apr 03 20:14
schestowitz The whole “ignore stupid patents” attitude it no more Apr 03 20:14
jose yeah, you mean microsoft actually sued!!!! Apr 03 20:14
schestowitz Now is the time to fight them, not to ignore them Apr 03 20:15
jose and for garbage like fat silliness Apr 03 20:15
schestowitz Yes, Microsoft showed its new business mode Apr 03 20:15
jose that was a great move on their part Apr 03 20:15
schestowitz As applied to FOSS, not just Xerox, Apple, IBM… Apr 03 20:15
schestowitz jose: it was Apr 03 20:15
schestowitz See Groklaw Apr 03 20:15
schestowitz No “New Microsoft” Apr 03 20:15
jose \/sarcasm Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz FOSS developers are watching Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz FAT!=Linux Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz FAT = Microsoft interchange Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz FAT = ‘API’ Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz Without APIs, you can’t safely develop with/for Windows Apr 03 20:16
schestowitz As long as you’re small, you might get away with it Apr 03 20:17
jose ms has simple choices: drop their lawsuit aggression and any advantage they think comes with it.. or show their teeth and deal with those consequences. Apr 03 20:17
schestowitz As long as you’re small enough to sue without legal challenge (like TomTom), you’ll be forced to pay Apr 03 20:17
schestowitz People must stop enriching the Windows ecosystem Apr 03 20:17
schestowitz jose: the deal id know Apr 03 20:17
schestowitz See Groklaw Apr 03 20:18
schestowitz http://www.groklaw.net/article.ph… Apr 03 20:18
schestowitz “Two notices of dismissal have been filed with the courts — Microsoft’s in Washington State, and TomTom’s in Virginia, each dismissed without prejudice, ending both patent litigations. “Without prejudice” means that either could ramp it up and do this some more in the future, should circumstances arise that made it necessary. But in most cases, it means the litigation, or whatever, is over.” Apr 03 20:18
jose i was interested in the groklaw stories you wrote about but i got sidetracked and didn’t get to them. Apr 03 20:18
schestowitz I have a megapost about TomTom comung Apr 03 20:18
schestowitz Lots of work on it required Apr 03 20:18
jose i’ll be super busy the next day and a half to 2 days Apr 03 20:19
jose regularly busy thereafter Apr 03 20:19
jose probably won’t log on tomorrow Apr 03 20:19
jose but i was going to say.. you can always email and if i check in time and have time i can look a post over (pref for limited cases since i doubt i’ll spend too much time proofing). Apr 03 20:20
schestowitz http://techdirt.com/articles/20… (MIT Police Suspended For Trashing Student Newspaper) Apr 03 20:21
schestowitz There’s no busy affair  over the horizon Apr 03 20:22
schestowitz No major release that I know of anyway. The IBM deal –if true — has already been digested by many Apr 03 20:22
schestowitz It seems likely that Novell will stick close to Microsoft as time goes by. http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/0… Apr 03 20:24
jose i would like to see novell snap out of that, but their strategy probably runs too deeply and those carrying it out are probably too committed (eg, really really like ms). Apr 03 20:27
jose the future will tell Apr 03 20:27
jose did you catch this quote: Apr 03 20:28
jose from 1998 Apr 03 20:28
jose >> Linux is a cult that captures the best-and-brightest kids. [...] The Linux cult views Solaris as bad and Windows as evil or stupid. [...] Linux is a huge training group and experimental laboratory for Solaris. Suggestion: We need to find and analog to create a “cult” of core windows developers. Apr 03 20:28
jose they probably weren’t thinking exclusively about getting foss or nonfoss devs. Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz Yes, got it already Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz Firefox has a following too Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz Not exactly GNU-like Apr 03 20:29
jose the connection to the mono gang is something i couldn’t help considering Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz Also following from USERS Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz jose: mono gang has MS-hooks Apr 03 20:29
schestowitz I didn’t know until recently that Nat Friedman is a MS employee Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz He worked there for a long time Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz Then he hooked up with the guy who tried to work for Microsoft. They made some bizniz Apr 03 20:30
*NeonFloss (n=imsorry@rdsl-0145.tor.pathcom.com) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz So let’s put it this way Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz Putting Miguel aside Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz Nat has friends at Microsoft Apr 03 20:30
schestowitz Some seniors too Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz What is the likelihood there they have some agreement on some things Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz Like “.NET is the future” Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz And all that malarkey Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz Why wouldn’t an MS employee choose .NET for Ximian as a startup? Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz Maybe there’s some history tight there. Apr 03 20:31
schestowitz Nat is bossing some people at Novell Apr 03 20:32
schestowitz It’s like putting MS in charge Apr 03 20:32
schestowitz And Novell appointed other MS executives for high positions Apr 03 20:32
schestowitz It’s not as bad as vmware yet Apr 03 20:32
schestowitz *LOL* http://video.google.com/vide… Apr 03 20:34
jose of course i suspect that miguel “i didn’t get into ms” might have gotten a much better offer… Apr 03 20:35
jose but those details shouldn’t matter. Apr 03 20:36
jose without proof there is not much there Apr 03 20:36
jose people can always imagine this sort of thing might be happening Apr 03 20:36
schestowitz Nothing needs to ‘happen’ Apr 03 20:36
schestowitz It’s just common courtesy Apr 03 20:36
schestowitz He’s still buddies with them Apr 03 20:36
_Hicham_ Miguel is a real shame for Linux Community Apr 03 20:37
schestowitz They wrapped him up with a blanket and use him to ruin FOSS now Apr 03 20:37
jose i’d rather not make this sort of stuff personal. Apr 03 20:38
jose in any case, people will be known by their actions. Apr 03 20:38
jose we can just criticize those actions Apr 03 20:38
_Hicham_ jose : it is not personal Apr 03 20:38
jose the novell people have left many holes Apr 03 20:39
_Hicham_ it is the actions Apr 03 20:39
_Hicham_ we are talking about the actions Apr 03 20:39
jose if we speculate on people, it can get ugly and unfair (especially if we are wrong) Apr 03 20:39
jose i’m talking about speculating too much in public Apr 03 20:39
*mib_tecqwd (i=8258be83@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f8fee645b0f7a1ee) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 20:39
*mib_tecqwd has quit (Client Quit) Apr 03 20:39
schestowitz Green Initiatives Save More than the Environment < http://www.itbusinessedge.com/cm/blogs… > Apr 03 20:39
schestowitz jose: that’s exactly what I do –criticise by action Apr 03 20:40
schestowitz Some people delve into personal life Apr 03 20:40
schestowitz Like, we’ve had people speak about him mom and dad and calling him gay Apr 03 20:40
schestowitz But most people talk about mono and motives Apr 03 20:40
schestowitz That’s not personal Apr 03 20:40
schestowitz That’s his professional deeds Apr 03 20:40
jose schestowitz, i have some work to do and want to be able to get to bed early. Apr 03 20:42
jose i find out about sun and anything else sunday or monday Apr 03 20:42
schestowitz “IBM Near Deal to Buy Sun for Lower Price – Wall Street Journal” Apr 03 20:42
schestowitz jose: just one thing Apr 03 20:43
jose i’ll find out… Apr 03 20:43
jose one Apr 03 20:43
schestowitz My criticisms are not personal Apr 03 20:43
schestowitz Notice that I talk about actions Apr 03 20:43
schestowitz Trolls in USENET dig into personal lives and MAKE STUFF UP….. intentionally… libel Apr 03 20:43
schestowitz But that’s to be expected from the likes of Microsoft Apr 03 20:43
jose fwiw, i was talking about speculating on miguel.. and i wasn’t talking about you.. Apr 03 20:43
schestowitz They smear as part of the business model Apr 03 20:44
jose ..or about anyone Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz vs companies ->FUD Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz vs resistors -> smears Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz Speculation is another matter Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz Not personal Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz Professional but lacking certainty Apr 03 20:44
schestowitz You can still judge a person by his motives where they seem obvious Apr 03 20:44
jose right, but what do you do about people that will be turned off. Apr 03 20:45
schestowitz And for Novell, to bury Mono is an impossibility Apr 03 20:45
jose evidence quiets people or even converts them Apr 03 20:45
schestowitz Likewise for Novell Apr 03 20:45
schestowitz They are too deeplty invested in it Apr 03 20:45
schestowitz They also have contracts with Microsoft Apr 03 20:45
jose but speculation can lead to many enemies and upset people and etc Apr 03 20:45
jose too deep is probably right Apr 03 20:45
jose my comments sometimes sound very bold (i don’t always say “i think” IMO etc) Apr 03 20:46
jose but i don’t mind too much if i keep it to corporations Apr 03 20:46
jose or to general things Apr 03 20:47
jose anyway, i got onto this tangent because of that quote about ms wanting to tap into the linux community approach Apr 03 20:48
jose ok, will go soon enough Apr 03 20:48
*jose has quit (“Leaving”) Apr 03 20:52
schestowitz ESR does it again :-( http://www.opensource.org/node/415 Apr 03 20:56
schestowitz Novell bought by Microsoft is still Llikely to be true. Novell was voted the least likely technology company to survive 2009 (eWeek survey, 2009), so this is no joke. Apr 03 21:01
_Hicham_ why MS will buy Novell? Apr 03 21:02
_Hicham_ this is unlikely to happen … Apr 03 21:03
_Hicham_ I don’t think so, MS will never do such a bad mov Apr 03 21:03
_Hicham_ move Apr 03 21:03
schestowitz You never know…. Apr 03 21:05
_Hicham_ MS don’t want direct trouble with Linux community Apr 03 21:06
*jose (n=jose@adsl-233-77-124.mia.bellsouth.net) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 21:06
jose schestowitz, thought of an analogy Apr 03 21:06
jose the link provided earlier today here about thieves stealing iron and copper and steal etc.. Apr 03 21:07
jose from schneier i think Apr 03 21:07
schestowitz _Hicham_: Novell is a cheap takover target Apr 03 21:07
schestowitz Just a couple of billiobs Apr 03 21:07
jose microsoft is like those thieves Apr 03 21:07
jose they spot odd conditions in society and exploit them to the last drop Apr 03 21:08
jose ok, the analogy is stretched Apr 03 21:08
schestowitz The ones who dumpster-dived for code? Apr 03 21:08
jose yeah, that is straight “stealing of IP” .. no analogy needed there Apr 03 21:09
jose microsoft helped lead to re-evaluation of stock options accounting rules Apr 03 21:11
jose they probably played a key role in leading to foss being seen to save us from lock-in and monopolies Apr 03 21:12
jose and may help show the foolishness of sw patents Apr 03 21:12
_Hicham_ Microsoft is to stop Encarta service : http://encarta.msn.com/gu… Apr 03 21:12
jose many other companies tap into the weak laws but don’t go full out. Apr 03 21:12
schestowitz “I would suggest you to shift to linux ASAP. More update on my Linux experience soon.” http://visheshunni.wordpress.com/2009/0… Apr 03 21:12
schestowitz People joke about MS bailout Apr 03 21:13
schestowitz But I think it’ll happen Apr 03 21:13
schestowitz The latch onto medical data Apr 03 21:13
schestowitz To create life dependency (thus public looting of data and funds) Apr 03 21:13
jose .. this reminds me of the “banks too big to fail problem” Apr 03 21:14
jose the gov should follow their approach and make sure to avoid similar situations in the technology field Apr 03 21:14
schestowitz Five years with Ubuntu < http://www.ntra-net.com/2009/… > I too have used Ubuntu since 4.10 (not exclusively) Apr 03 21:16
schestowitz Bank are too big, eh? Apr 03 21:17
schestowitz Let me find a chart Apr 03 21:17
schestowitz Here: http://www.cringely.com/2009/02/w… Apr 03 21:17
schestowitz But he says it is not accurate Apr 03 21:17
jose linear scale is correct Apr 03 21:18
jose but they used 2d graph which suggests in mind a comparison made on squared values Apr 03 21:18
jose ie, a circle that is half as long as another is 1/4 the size Apr 03 21:18
jose the mind things “1/4″ oh no Apr 03 21:19
jose but the actual factual relationship was 1/2 Apr 03 21:19
jose this effect is worse for greater changes in size Apr 03 21:19
jose eg, 1/10 linear becomes 1/100 area Apr 03 21:19
jose ie, 10% would give scare impression of being 1% Apr 03 21:20
jose of the 100% reference point Apr 03 21:20
jose if my rambling doesn’t make sense Apr 03 21:20
jose that’s what happens when i should be planning for bed instead of being on irc Apr 03 21:20
jose :-) Apr 03 21:20
*jose has quit (“Leaving”) Apr 03 21:21
schestowitz “XScreenSaver is one of the most widely-used screensaver applications for Linux systems. The Debian project is seeking new maintainers to help keep the software running.” http://www.linux-magazine.com/onli… Apr 03 21:21
schestowitz http://www.linux-wizard.net/blog-comp… “So whereas it’s sad for the compiz dev, I’m happy to see tyhat finally in the end, hacks and workaround like Compiz will come to and end.” Apr 03 21:28
_Hicham_ compiz will be integrated in Gnome by that time Apr 03 21:30
_Hicham_ when all people will have powerful graphic cards Apr 03 21:30
_Hicham_ but for the moment, I enjoy compiz Apr 03 21:30
schestowitz We seem to have a site copying our posts: http://www.allaboutms.net/2009/… Apr 03 21:33
schestowitz I’m actually cool about it because it keeps links and thus attributions in tact. It’s good that our message spreads further like this. Apr 03 21:33
_Hicham_ good for u schestowitz Apr 03 21:34
_Hicham_ u r getting popular Apr 03 21:34
schestowitz I’ll keep an eye on the site Apr 03 21:34
_Hicham_ who is running it? Apr 03 21:35
schestowitz No idea. Something in Russia, maybe a bot Apr 03 21:38
schestowitz Mary Jo Foley talks BS now.. turning banter into some sort of headline that deceived: http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=2436 (Microsoft shouldn’t buy Twitter)… well.. errr… it ain’t… Google might. Apr 03 21:39
*PetoKraus has quit (Remote closed the connection) Apr 03 21:50
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 21:51
schestowitz http://www.vanwensveen.nl/rants/mic… Gates: “No, the best way to prepare is to write programs, and to study great programs that other people have written. In my case, I went to the garbage cans at the Computer Science Center and I fished out listings of their operating system.” Apr 03 21:52
*PeterFA (n=Peter@unaffiliated/peterfa) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 21:57
PetoKraus hmm Apr 03 21:59
PetoKraus so he used GPLed code :P Apr 03 21:59
PetoKraus (ok, public domain) Apr 03 21:59
schestowitz Microsoft won’t let companies host Azure on premise  < http://www.infoworld.com/archiv… > Apr 03 22:02
schestowitz Stating the obvious: PJ: “How naive do you have to be to put all your stuff on a proprietary infrastructure that you don’t control? At least, I’d want to look at the small print and find out in advance what happens to my stuff…” Apr 03 22:03
schestowitz ” if we have a dispute about, say, a price increase around the time we are negotiating a new deal and right after Azure has been “innovated” in just such a way that I can’t get my older documents to open even if I could get to them unless I pay? I see the word “innovation” here, and I think “lock-in”.” Apr 03 22:03
schestowitz PetoKraus: read the whole work and see how Microsoft never really invented anything. They just forced the market to accept stuff (junk) Apr 03 22:04
PetoKraus yeah Apr 03 22:04
schestowitz CNET: “# ©2009 CBS Interactive Inc. All rights reserved.” Apr 03 22:07
schestowitz I wonder if the same goes for ZDNet then. The big networks pick up even the Microsoft press Apr 03 22:07
tacone “a ton of new IP” Apr 03 22:08
tacone wow Apr 03 22:08
schestowitz PetoKraus: are you on Gentoo? Apr 03 22:08
tacone can’t wait. Apr 03 22:08
schestowitz IP is pronounced “hip” Apr 03 22:08
tacone i don’t get it :) Apr 03 22:09
schestowitz I got HIP Apr 03 22:09
schestowitz I SUE you Apr 03 22:09
PetoKraus schestowitz: arch Apr 03 22:10
PetoKraus schestowitz: why? Apr 03 22:10
tacone leave it alone :-) Apr 03 22:10
schestowitz I read a good review about it yesterday. Posted in BN links, as well. Apr 03 22:10
schestowitz Does it come with Pac Man or just pcman? Apr 03 22:11
schestowitz *pacman Apr 03 22:11
PetoKraus pacman Apr 03 22:11
schestowitz Party like it’s 1985. http://www.geekologie.com/20… Apr 03 22:12
PetoKraus :) Apr 03 22:13
tacone schestowitz: can I make a question of out of curiosity ? Apr 03 22:17
schestowitz Is ASUS dumping Xandros (with Microsoft patent deal) for Google? http://apcmag.com/Content.aspx?id=3711 Apr 03 22:17
schestowitz tacone: sure. Apr 03 22:17
tacone schestowitz: how many daily visitors does BN get on average ? Apr 03 22:17
tacone android is a clever choice from some points of views. better than gnome/kde in a way. Apr 03 22:18
tacone i never did an android app, but the idea i got it’s like creating a plugin Apr 03 22:20
schestowitz BN — depends on definiton Apr 03 22:23
_Hicham_ BN is very very popular Apr 03 22:23
schestowitz Webalizer says 8000 Apr 03 22:23
schestowitz Android seems to suck Apr 03 22:24
schestowitz I think they like a major vendor+DRM Apr 03 22:24
schestowitz tacone: plugin=bad portability Apr 03 22:24
tacone i’m not saying android is good or bad. Apr 03 22:24
schestowitz Like building some XUL app for Firefox Apr 03 22:24
schestowitz Had Firefox died where would you run your work? Apr 03 22:25
tacone i say it’s getting good rap from oems for some reasons. Apr 03 22:25
schestowitz Run as in disseminate to many users? Apr 03 22:25
schestowitz tacone: maybe it’s easier to sell something like “Google” Apr 03 22:25
schestowitz Than Zulu terminology Apr 03 22:25
tacone i think android still has some good pratical points Apr 03 22:26
schestowitz Can the theme i Ubuntu ( Remix) be changed? Apr 03 22:26
schestowitz Grey on dark laptops looks awful and so is brown/dark orange Apr 03 22:26
tacone ubuntu remix theme ? Apr 03 22:26
schestowitz It looks like a chocolate box Apr 03 22:27
tacone i didn’t tried UR Apr 03 22:27
schestowitz H-P customised it better Apr 03 22:27
tacone but i believe it’s transparent. Apr 03 22:27
tacone so depends from the wallpaper. Apr 03 22:27
tacone if you’re talking about ubuntu mobile remix. Apr 03 22:27
tacone “remix” is any unofficial derivative. Apr 03 22:27
schestowitz MS press: “Last May, Sun completed the final stages of open sourcing Java under the GNU license.” < http://reddevnews.com/reports/a… > Apr 03 22:28
schestowitz The GL? Apr 03 22:28
tacone “remix” is the keyword canonical forces you to use if you want to use Ubuntu trademark Apr 03 22:28
schestowitz I didn’t know that. I know they pressure flxubuntu Apr 03 22:29
tacone you can’t create schestowitzbuntu Apr 03 22:29
tacone thou salt not use Ubuntu or *buntu. Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz They defend their trdaemarks, claiming ownership of language Apr 03 22:29
tacone right. Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz Ubuntu is not a name Apr 03 22:29
tacone they never sue anyone afaik Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz It’s a word Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz Will they close down those restaurants that predate them? Apr 03 22:29
tacone but some one asked their permission explicitely for a website Apr 03 22:29
tacone and they said *no*. Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz They could claim that in context of computing it applies Apr 03 22:29
schestowitz Firebird was the same Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz And Phoenix Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz Firefox used to be called both Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz They had to shift name Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz *name Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz *names Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz Twice. Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz Phoenix BIOS and Firebird DB Apr 03 22:30
tacone i guess mozilla did change on their own, not because pressed. Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz Maybe. Apr 03 22:30
schestowitz I read it differently Apr 03 22:31
tacone i know nothing about it. Apr 03 22:31
tacone my take mozilla needs a strong and unique trademark in first place. Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz .I feel bad for people who creare some *ubuntu*.[net|org] site Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz Or with *linux* Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz TuxMachines is OK Apr 03 22:31
tacone oh, *ubuntu.net/org etc are gonna stay Apr 03 22:31
tacone no one will sue them. Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz People search for Linux Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz They get “Linux”..com Apr 03 22:31
schestowitz Front page – anfi-BN artivle Apr 03 22:32
tacone but of course shall they ask for permission, they’d get a negative response. Apr 03 22:32
schestowitz Some peoople advocate trashing of trademarks Apr 03 22:32
schestowitz But that would harm recognition Apr 03 22:32
tacone i don’t care about trademarks Apr 03 22:32
schestowitz Maybe these can be softened Apr 03 22:32
tacone unless they’re pushed too far Apr 03 22:32
schestowitz Photoshop too is a bastard trademar Apr 03 22:33
tacone http://www.stefanoforenza.com/apple-p… Apr 03 22:33
schestowitz Heh. pod Apr 03 22:33
schestowitz I neve write p*dcast Apr 03 22:33
tacone podium is a latin word. neverthless they claim it Apr 03 22:33
schestowitz It attributes audio to some ill-behaving company Apr 03 22:33
schestowitz Even some Linux sites call it something which sugggests I’ll listen to it using an ip*d Apr 03 22:34
schestowitz It’s bastardisation of vocabulary Apr 03 22:34
tacone apple has no right to claim pod anyway. Apr 03 22:34
schestowitz When vacuum cleaner is hoover Apr 03 22:34
schestowitz and computer is XP Apr 03 22:34
schestowitz Free software is “Linux” Apr 03 22:34
tacone despite being bad to use pod to mean music player. Apr 03 22:34
schestowitz Apple shut down a rumour site Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz About Apple. Apr 03 22:35
tacone it was called apple* though. Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz No telling what the terms were. Maybe they paid him. Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz Apple is a fruit Apr 03 22:35
tacone guess they did. Apr 03 22:35
tacone or scared him. Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz Apple Linux Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz I’d go for it Apr 03 22:35
schestowitz Nice wallpaper… Apr 03 22:36
tacone which ? Apr 03 22:36
MinceR nice? Apr 03 22:36
_Hicham_ where is this wallpaper? Apr 03 22:36
MinceR maybe if fisher-price is your style :> Apr 03 22:36
schestowitz Applux. Yummy! http://etc.usf.edu/clipart/46300… Apr 03 22:36
tacone everybody loves wallpapers Apr 03 22:36
schestowitz People remember distros by their wallpapers Apr 03 22:37
schestowitz F11 did well Apr 03 22:37
schestowitz Nice wallpaper of nature, no artwork Apr 03 22:37
schestowitz Remember Vists7 vapourware Apr 03 22:37
tacone ubuntu hardy had a strong wallpaper Apr 03 22:37
schestowitz Let me show you how Microsoft spreads cr*p Apr 03 22:37
tacone they do on 1st april :-) Apr 03 22:38
MinceR with heavy machinery? Apr 03 22:38
tacone with conficker. Apr 03 22:38
schestowitz Can’t find it ATM.. Apr 03 22:39
schestowitz http://elganmedia.net/ <- MS fan Apr 03 22:39
schestowitz The April 1st post from him was that silly Vista 7 leaked’ screenshots that just show an iceland with a boat Apr 03 22:39
schestowitz Oh, and some icons beneath it. Apr 03 22:40
schestowitz I’ll get started with links Apr 03 22:43
schestowitz Good news for Linux, almost none for Microsoft, as the case has been… well, since 2007. Apr 03 22:43
_Hicham_ MS is closing department after department Apr 03 22:48
schestowitz Until the core Apr 03 22:49
schestowitz They had a core: Windows Apr 03 22:49
schestowitz Then Office too Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz They needed to expand Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz Said ballmer explicitly Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz “If we don’t grow, then we shrink” (or something along those lines… 2008) Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz So they started XBox. Fail. Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz $7 billion down the can Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz They tried Zune.. Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz Enough said. Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz Google killer Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz Haha. Apr 03 22:50
schestowitz Now they deflate Apr 03 22:51
schestowitz Until the bone (Windows+Office) Apr 03 22:51
schestowitz SaaS and FOSS kill their revenue margins… $50 Office for young people, free copies where Microsoft loves counterfeiting and Windows is a freebie. Apr 03 22:51
schestowitz Now, that would work IF people bought new hardware Apr 03 22:52
schestowitz The OS they can give for free is almost a decade old (2001) Apr 03 22:52
schestowitz KDE4 pisses on it Apr 03 22:52
tacone lol Apr 03 22:52
schestowitz Allchin: piss on Java .. < http://boycottnovell.com/comes-vs-mi… > Apr 03 22:56
*schestowitz removes ban on McCain!*@* Apr 03 23:05
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*n=ryan@*.hsd1.il.comcast.net Apr 03 23:05
*DaemonFC` (n=ryan@c-67-173-86-85.hsd1.il.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 23:06
DaemonFC` I’m considering going back to XFS, I’ve actually lost data to Ext4 twice now Apr 03 23:07
*DaemonFC` growls Apr 03 23:07
*DaemonFC` is now known as DaemonFC Apr 03 23:07
*tacone is on xfs Apr 03 23:08
DaemonFC if you enable barriers on Ext4, your data is corrupted in a crash Apr 03 23:09
DaemonFC if you disable them, your data is corrupted worse Apr 03 23:09
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 23:09
MinceR at least it’s POSIX-compliant ;) Apr 03 23:12
DaemonFC XFS is POSIX compliant Apr 03 23:13
DaemonFC show me where it violates any POSIX standard ;) Apr 03 23:13
DaemonFC and you can only use the word standard loosely with regards to anything unix/posix Apr 03 23:14
DaemonFC and the wonderful thing about standards is there’s so many to choose from Apr 03 23:14
DaemonFC no POSIX spec for file system behavior guarantees data integrity at all Apr 03 23:15
DaemonFC sometimes the correct thing for the file system to do in a situation is undefined Apr 03 23:15
DaemonFC well, a lot of the time I should say Apr 03 23:15
schestowitz ryan, you were unbanned based on the assumption that you would chill. You are here just ranting. Apr 03 23:15
DaemonFC POSIX is a joke, SUS is a joke, LSB is a joke, it’s because the companies that “standardize” the stuff adon’t want standards Apr 03 23:16
DaemonFC they don’t want you to leave Red Hat and use Novell or leave Novell and use Ubuntu Apr 03 23:16
DaemonFC no, I just cringe everytime someone says POSIX, because without guaranteed consistent behavior, it is not a standard Apr 03 23:17
schestowitz Ok, but it’s hardly on topic Apr 03 23:17
schestowitz Filesystem that is Apr 03 23:17
schestowitz You’re already in file system channels. You should rant *there* Apr 03 23:18
DaemonFC standards apply to steel beams, not software :) ever Apr 03 23:18
DaemonFC and I leave it at that Apr 03 23:18
schestowitz What do you program in? Apr 03 23:18
DaemonFC I mainly try to use the stuff that various random projects churn out and you know that one UNIX or Linux may work fine and another UNIX or Linux may not even let the application build, much less even fail *after* building Apr 03 23:19
DaemonFC but this applies even between two Linux distros that are LSB-compliant Apr 03 23:20
schestowitz You can usually build it somehow for any distro Apr 03 23:20
schestowitz Unlike for a closed system Apr 03 23:20
MinceR DaemonFC: Ted Ts’o’s argument was that it’s POSIX-compliant Apr 03 23:20
MinceR which is pretty much irrelevant if it loses data :P Apr 03 23:21
DaemonFC so it’s very much an end user problem when you  need guarantees and all you have are buggy test suites that say two incompatible systems pass Apr 03 23:21
schestowitz Where you can struggle forever building for some forced crippled ‘upgrade’ like Longhorn Apr 03 23:21
DaemonFC and leave mostly wiggle room anyway Apr 03 23:21
schestowitz ext4 is not yet bundles Apr 03 23:21
schestowitz *bundled (for a reason) Apr 03 23:21
DaemonFC and Ted Ts’o is masturbating if he expects any reasonable person to not laugh at that Apr 03 23:21
DaemonFC cause POSIX compliant means squat Apr 03 23:21
schestowitz Did you see what he said about Debian? Apr 03 23:21
schestowitz He’s got some opposition to him. Apr 03 23:21
DaemonFC OK, that happens Apr 03 23:22
tacone ext4 is in jaunty Apr 03 23:22
tacone and in next fedora Apr 03 23:22
DaemonFC and their kernel is not fit to run Ext4 Apr 03 23:22
schestowitz He’s the CTO of LF now Apr 03 23:22
tacone they patch. Apr 03 23:22
DaemonFC cause they are not backporting even basic patches for fs integrity sanity Apr 03 23:22
schestowitz They got Moblin Apr 03 23:23
schestowitz Intel probably dumped it at LF cause it’s trash Apr 03 23:23
schestowitz ARM can use Intel’s code now Apr 03 23:23
DaemonFC It’s easier for me to build my own kernel and patch it with what makes sense Apr 03 23:23
schestowitz And make cheaper, faster, more energy-efficient ‘MIDs’, as Intel wants to cell them Apr 03 23:23
DaemonFC cause you can never trust a distro kernel to do the right thing Apr 03 23:23
DaemonFC If it’s not in Trovalds’ tree, I don’t want it Apr 03 23:24
DaemonFC period Apr 03 23:24
DaemonFC if Torvalds has refused it, don’t maintain it out of tree, he is smarter than you Apr 03 23:24
DaemonFC lol Apr 03 23:24
*kentma1 has quit (“Leaving.”) Apr 03 23:24
schestowitz Morton’s a mess Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz Was Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz In 2.6.28 Apr 03 23:25
DaemonFC if Ubuntu would follow that guideline if they can’t make meaningful contributions Apr 03 23:25
DaemonFC Ubuntu would be a lot higher quality Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz But it’s not intended for use in distros Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz Candidates for merging Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz ext4 is not merged yet Apr 03 23:25
DaemonFC of course mm is a mess, that’s why there’s an mm Apr 03 23:25
schestowitz Not in -final Apr 03 23:25
DaemonFC it has every experimental patch you can have Apr 03 23:26
DaemonFC even Reiser4 Apr 03 23:26
*Balrog_ (n=Balrog@pool-68-238-235-164.phil.east.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 23:26
schestowitz You want stable, the stick with centos Apr 03 23:26
DaemonFC Reiser4 is not a bad file system, they turned down a damn fine contribution Apr 03 23:26
DaemonFC cause the developer was a jerk Apr 03 23:26
schestowitz http://jehurst.wordpress.com/2009/0… It works really, really well. Apr 03 23:26
DaemonFC CentOS is kind of ridiculous Apr 03 23:27
DaemonFC RHEL kernels can only load Ext3, you have to use that or Ext2 Apr 03 23:27
schestowitz Fine. Apr 03 23:28
DaemonFC you have to build the modules yourself after the system is already installed, which means rebuilding their kernel source if you still want one that’s mostly RHEL Apr 03 23:28
DaemonFC and if you are using RHEL, this voids your support Apr 03 23:28
schestowitz Of course Apr 03 23:28
schestowitz You want cutting-edge, then use Sabayon Apr 03 23:29
DaemonFC XFS is hardly cutting edge Apr 03 23:29
DaemonFC I mean loading the module in an RHEL kernel voids your support Apr 03 23:29
MinceR “if i want cutting edge, i’ll buy a sword. if i want bleeding edge, i’ll use it.” Apr 03 23:30
DaemonFC meh, Debian has good package management but is ancient, Fedora is cutting edge but their package manager sucks Apr 03 23:31
DaemonFC so Ubuntu is a compromise that most people can live with Apr 03 23:31
DaemonFC and most of the stuff that comes from them is alright Apr 03 23:31
*tacone agrees Apr 03 23:32
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 23:32
schestowitz wb, oiaohm Apr 03 23:34
DaemonFC I even tried OpenSuse at one point on a spare system to see what all the hubbub was about Apr 03 23:34
DaemonFC and was greeted by an EXE Apr 03 23:34
schestowitz and DLLs Apr 03 23:34
schestowitz Mono Apr 03 23:34
DaemonFC that didn’t last long Apr 03 23:34
schestowitz DLL hell? Apr 03 23:34
schestowitz Mono hell? Apr 03 23:34
DaemonFC yeah no shit Apr 03 23:35
DaemonFC look for dll Apr 03 23:35
DaemonFC locate dll Apr 03 23:35
DaemonFC and watch all the crap fly down the terminal window Apr 03 23:35
benJIman Because the most important thing about libraries is what the file extension is. Apr 03 23:35
schestowitz Wait until Novell make symbolic links Apr 03 23:35
DaemonFC they could have named them .so Apr 03 23:35
schestowitz /opt/bin/ –> /progra~1 Apr 03 23:35
DaemonFC Suse is just flagrantly naming stuff EXE/DLL etc to wave their dick around Apr 03 23:36
DaemonFC I’m convinced Apr 03 23:36
tacone they may already have, i guess Apr 03 23:36
DaemonFC wait, they don’t even have locate or slocate or mlocate Apr 03 23:36
DaemonFC you have to install that Apr 03 23:37
schestowitz When they are done rewriting yast2, then I’ll sure look under /progra~1/yast.exe Apr 03 23:37
DaemonFC and build the database Apr 03 23:37
benJIman Because locate is not actually that useful. Apr 03 23:37
benJIman or efficient. Apr 03 23:37
benJIman When the database building was on by default there were more complaints than there are about beagle now. Apr 03 23:38
oiaohm Yast has never been a efficient thing. Apr 03 23:38
schestowitz beagle is a exe app too Apr 03 23:38
benJIman Programme filename ends in .exe! Warn your distributor now. Apr 03 23:38
PetoKraus yeah, it’s quite retarded Apr 03 23:39
schestowitz (23:38 $)─> beagle –help Apr 03 23:39
schestowitz ERROR Apr 03 23:39
schestowitz (23:38 $)─> beagle /help Apr 03 23:39
DaemonFC lmao Apr 03 23:39
tacone really ? Apr 03 23:40
tacone would be beagle /? Apr 03 23:40
schestowitz I think it could. Teachnically it can. Apr 03 23:41
schestowitz You know what Mono adovocates say Apr 03 23:42
schestowitz It’s about attracting Windows developers Apr 03 23:42
schestowitz They mimic VS already Apr 03 23:42
schestowitz Wallpaper for OpenSUSE 12.0: http://www.guidebookgallery.o… Apr 03 23:43
oiaohm PE of .mono can be picked up by wine by mistake. Apr 03 23:43
tacone lol Apr 03 23:43
schestowitz The point I’m trying to make is that the approach is flawed Apr 03 23:43
*_Hicham_1 (n=hicham@41.249.87.29) has joined #boycottnovell Apr 03 23:43
tacone would be fun to have a screenshot with the suse gnome panel Apr 03 23:44
schestowitz I mean, sure… to make them most ‘welcome’ you just give them another Windows Apr 03 23:44
schestowitz But what was actually achieved? Apr 03 23:44
DaemonFC then Wine tells you to install Mono for Windows Apr 03 23:45
DaemonFC inside Wine Apr 03 23:45
DaemonFC B-) Apr 03 23:45
tacone DaemonFC: are you joking or they do already ? Apr 03 23:46
oiaohm http://projects.gnome.org/tracker/  Gnome guys got sick of beagle poor performance due to being .net and wrote this C based replacement. Apr 03 23:46
DaemonFC not joking Apr 03 23:46
tacone i knew they had plans to do that. Apr 03 23:46
oiaohm And that is no joke Apr 03 23:46
DaemonFC Tracker is in Ubuntu Apr 03 23:46
MinceR then they’ll port wine to mono Apr 03 23:46
tacone oiaohm: tracker sucks in many ways Apr 03 23:46
MinceR then you can run wine on mono on wine on mono on wine on mono on wine on mono on wine on mono… Apr 03 23:46
oiaohm Compared to beagle that can eat you cpu and ram for lunch. Apr 03 23:46
DaemonFC MinceR: Let’s isntall Mono in Wine then rewrite Win in Mono and install it in Mono For Wine Apr 03 23:47
oiaohm Wine cannot be ported to mono. Apr 03 23:47
tacone tracker used to hang my gtk apps Apr 03 23:47
tacone lol Apr 03 23:47
oiaohm tracker only eats you cpu for lunch from time to time. Apr 03 23:47
oiaohm Its a improvement. Apr 03 23:47
tacone no, it hung applications which were trying to read they’re .glade file. for minutes Apr 03 23:47
tacone I hope the newer versions of tracker work better Apr 03 23:47
DaemonFC GNOME, I think, realizes what a bad thing Mono is, how poor the performance is Apr 03 23:48
DaemonFC and is moving away Apr 03 23:48
tacone neverthless, tracker is worth nothing without a good gui Apr 03 23:48
tacone and it has not any good gui Apr 03 23:48
PetoKraus sup dawg we herd you like to wine so we put mono in your wine so you can wine while you mono Apr 03 23:48
tacone gnome doesn’t realize nothing about mono. Apr 03 23:48
DaemonFC they’re moving away from Mozilla crap at least Apr 03 23:48
DaemonFC I’m happy about that Apr 03 23:48
tacone zomg Apr 03 23:49
oiaohm http://strigi.sourceforge.net/  Kde version works about the best. Apr 03 23:49
tacone i don’t have a suse live cd. Apr 03 23:49
tacone what now ? Apr 03 23:49
DaemonFC pretty soon we can use GTKWebkit which is like 4 times faster on scripts Apr 03 23:49
DaemonFC and takes less RAM Apr 03 23:49
*schestowitz uses strigi Apr 03 23:49
MinceR PetoKraus: lol Apr 03 23:50
tacone $ wget downloads.microsoft.com/europe/mi/ballnux-latest-i386.iso Apr 03 23:50
oiaohm Has anyone checked the software packages contained in that. Apr 03 23:51
oiaohm Because that means MS is the direct distributor of them. Apr 03 23:52
oiaohm Hopefully some GPLv3 in there. Apr 03 23:52
Balrog_ well, GTKWebkit needs work. Sure it’s being done. Apr 03 23:52
*tacone wishes wordpress was on gpl3. is being distributed by MS Apr 03 23:53
Balrog_ and Firefox has native ogg theora/vorbis support Apr 03 23:53
Balrog_ wordpress …. distributed … by MS? Apr 03 23:53
tacone yeah Apr 03 23:53
Balrog_ link Apr 03 23:53
tacone https://www.microsoft.com/web/ Apr 03 23:53
Balrog_ you mean their crippled version? Apr 03 23:53
Balrog_ or enhanced? Apr 03 23:54
tacone i don’t think it’s enh/crippl Apr 03 23:54
tacone i think they just patched it for iis /sql serv. Apr 03 23:54
tacone http://www.microsoft.com/web/gall… Apr 03 23:54
tacone it’s the first app listed Apr 03 23:54
Balrog_ well, server 2008 does support PHP, I head Apr 03 23:54
Balrog_ I don’t know how well Apr 03 23:54
Balrog_ probably poorly Apr 03 23:55
tacone they worked closely with zend in the last years Apr 03 23:55
tacone probably hopelessy trying to compete with apache. Apr 03 23:55
oiaohm server 2008 still have disc access glitches. Apr 03 23:55
Balrog_ here we still use server 03, when we have to use windows Apr 03 23:56
schestowitz Zend says it runs Linux 95% of the time Apr 03 23:56
schestowitz Microsofgt is losing it Apr 03 23:56
schestowitz Only a MS Sandwich Engineer would buy a $3000 server to run a blog Apr 03 23:57
Balrog_ yes, that is correct. Or an idiot Apr 03 23:57
Balrog_ (and I know some people who run mail / forum servers on Windows Server) Apr 03 23:57
tacone it’s just a one more thing you can do. Apr 03 23:57
schestowitz They rely on lots of ignorance. They still have some people who use IE6 Apr 03 23:57
tacone yes they do rely on ignorance. Apr 03 23:58
schestowitz Windows=easy Apr 03 23:58
schestowitz Microsoft=innovative Apr 03 23:58
Balrog_ no, windows is not easy at all Apr 03 23:58
schestowitz Linux=mother’s basement Apr 03 23:58
Balrog_ people just hate config files and text-based stuff Apr 03 23:58
DaemonFC I don’t know how it’s easier to reformat the disk every so often Apr 03 23:58
schestowitz Apple=:”too cool” Apr 03 23:58
DaemonFC and just accept it as normal Apr 03 23:58
Balrog_ schestowitz: according to Microsoft :P Apr 03 23:58
schestowitz Yes, of course Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz It’s the hypnosis Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz You need to recite it Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz Ribbon=innovative Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz OOXML=sophisticated Apr 03 23:59
*_Hicham_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Apr 03 23:59
oiaohm Lack of good desktop graphical tools for configuring Linux. Apr 03 23:59
oiaohm Have caused lots of problems. Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz Which tools? Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz Some people grew up with config files Apr 03 23:59
oiaohm Yet there was no point to good graphical tools to configure Linux while X11 was unstable. Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz So they carry on ignoring GUIs Apr 03 23:59
schestowitz I still write my cron jobs Apr 03 23:59
Balrog_ and some grew up with no config files Apr 03 23:59
Share in other sites/networks: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Reddit
  • email
  • Slashdot

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

What Else is New


  1. Links 22/10/2020: LibreOffice 6.4.7, Septor 2020.5, Ubuntu 20.10 Released, FreeBSD Quarterly Status Report

    Links for the day



  2. IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, October 21, 2020

    IRC logs for Wednesday, October 21, 2020



  3. Living Humbly (With Older Technology or None) is More Compatible With Privacy- and Freedom-Respecting Technological Lifestyle

    Simplicity sometimes trumps so-called 'novelty', especially when it comes to human rights and users' freedom



  4. Reasons Why You (and Everybody Else) Should Join the Fight for Software Freedom

    Society is being closely watched and controlled (more so during/after the latest pandemic) and people must carefully consider the true importance of resisting proprietary technology (controlled remotely by state actors)



  5. Ways and Means to Reduce One's Dependency on Google's Various Monopolies and Near-Monopolies

    Getting rid of Google means a lot more than embracing DumbDumbGo (DDG) or some other sites that spy just like Google; we're taking stock of some options



  6. The European Commission is Still M.I.A. Regarding EPO Corruption (and the EPO's Management Plays Dirty, as Always)

    There's no change in the EU; the EUIPO and EPO enjoy complete and total immunity/impunity, with the Commission being manned by those who are deeply complicit



  7. 10 Reasons Why All This 'Edge for Linux' Coverage is a Total Farce

    The fake hype surrounding "Edge" is an inauthentic hype/buzz campaign made to coincide with anti-Google sentiments spread by Microsoft front/pressure groups



  8. Microsoft's IIS Has Collapsed Again This Past Month (and IIS Will Not and Cannot Survive This Way)

    Netcraft shows that Microsoft's decline further accelerates in the Web servers space; IIS is becoming financially unviable



  9. Links 21/10/2020: Alpine 3.12.1, Tor Browser 10.0.2

    Links for the day



  10. [Meme] US Department of Justice Should Have Taken on Microsoft Again, Not Google

    When lobbying, connections and political sway determine the actions of the American government it's hardly surprising that Bill Gates gets the Trump administration to fight for him (to make him even richer)



  11. [Meme] Banning Words, Gaslighting Volunteers

    What happens when institutions are themselves in violation of a CoC (institutional violation) and massive corporations that fund such institutional violations are defending demonisation of the individual (squashing ‘uncomfortable’ voices, even volunteers’)



  12. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, October 20, 2020

    IRC logs for Tuesday, October 20, 2020



  13. Links 21/10/2020: $8000 GNU/Linux Desktop, Tails 4.12, Open Infrastructure Foundation and Firefox Release

    Links for the day



  14. Never Feed the Internet Trolls, No Matter How Tempting It Becomes

    The tactics for removing critics of abuse (by framing them as "abusive") have evolved a lot in recent years; the best course of action is to never entertain provocateurs in any way whatsoever (just ignore them, give them no attention which they crave and feed on)



  15. Bill Gates: “I'm Not a Lawyer” (He Dropped Out of College, Where He Studied Law Before and After Breaking the Law Chronically)

    How Microsoft blackmailed other companies into supporting nothing but Microsoft and Windows; Bill Gates repeatedly lied to the interrogators about it, then said "I'm not a lawyer" (IANAL) even though he went to college to become one, just like his father who died last month



  16. Microsoft Has Not Changed Since Being Investigated (and Prosecuted) for Crimes at a Federal Level

    The media keeps telling us a bunch of worthless junk about Gates "saving the world" and Microsoft becoming a "nice" and "gentle" (or "soft") company, but nothing could be further from the truth



  17. Stick a Fork in the Open Source Initiative (OSI). OSI is Dead. Microsoft Bought OSI.

    OSI leadership proudly showing early signs of 'prognosis negative'; the OSI can never and will never recover from this; Microsoft killed it



  18. Links 20/10/2020: OpenZFS 2.0 RC4 and Trisquel GNU/Linux 9.0

    Links for the day



  19. People With God Complex Must Never be Allowed in Positions of Power

    The attack on Linus Torvalds — an attack which at his own expense/peril he fails to recognise/acknowledge — seeks to put both projects that he founded right in Microsoft’s palm



  20. IRC Proceedings: Monday, October 19, 2020

    IRC logs for Monday, October 19, 2020



  21. Corporate Media: GNU/Linux Can Only Succeed If/When Microsoft Dominates Everything Inside It

    The corporate takeover (or handover) of GNU/Linux would not have been possible without complicity of corruptible (bribed) media



  22. Bill Gates Explains How Microsoft and Apple Leverage Software Patents in Their Cross-Licensing Deals (to Perpetuate Duopoly/Shared Monopoly)

    A look back at Apple's and Microsoft's use or misuse of bogus software patents in bargaining (in effect excluding those who have not amassed tens of thousands of patents)



  23. Standards and Choices

    GNU/Linux is a very standards-based platform; having lots of choices (e.g. distros to choose from) isn’t the principal problem — or nowhere near the extent sabotage and illegal tactics by Microsoft have been



  24. IBM's “Emb(RACE)” Campaign is an Insult to History and Historians

    IBM wishes to be seen as some heroic saviour and warrior for black girls; this requires serious if not torturous revisionism to be believed



  25. There Are Too Many Types of Cars...

    "Choice is malicious," say the antagonists



  26. Reversal of Narratives by Internet Trolls (Spinning Reaction to Their Trolling as 'Abuse')

    Organisations that engage in demonisation of people (typically those who expose the abuses of such organisations) somehow evade the standards of Codes of Conduct, as if Codes of Conduct are covertly designed not to protect individuals but to empower those who already have all the powers (or front for powerful people/corporations)



  27. Ongoing (Albeit Secret) Campaign of Patent Extortion Against GNU/Linux Distributions Using Software Patents, Even Expired Ones in Europe

    GNU/Linux distros attacked by software patents, even in Europe where no such patents are supposed to exist (or have any legal bearing)



  28. Links 19/10/2020: Linux 5.9-ck1/MuQSS, Linux Kodachi 7.3

    Links for the day



  29. Java's James Gosling is Wrong. Free Software Advocates Never Suggested or Insinuated That Money-Making Was Ethically Wrong.

    The honorable James Gosling mischaracterises the stance of Free software advocacy, portraying it like it is an issue of money rather than respect for users



  30. Maybe This is What Codes of Conduct Were Made for? Or to Prevent? (Updated)

    When people bemoan the abuse they receive from a so-called 'anti-harassment' team (covering up corporate corruption in a project by ousting people) this is the kind of thing they receive from colleagues or former colleagues


RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

Recent Posts