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04.13.09

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 12th, 2009 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:13 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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twitter it seems to work very well Apr 12 02:26
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oiaohm You don’t have the coders you cannot have maintaince. Apr 12 02:26
oiaohm You don’t have the coders you cannot have features. Apr 12 02:26
twitter you only lack coders when no one is interested Apr 12 02:27
twitter that’s not really a problem Apr 12 02:27
twitter it’s a feature Apr 12 02:27
oiaohm Depending on the complexity of feature or maintance some require full time coders. Apr 12 02:27
oiaohm Interest is generated. Apr 12 02:27
seller_liar oiaohm: it only one needs a coder for maintenance Apr 12 02:27
oiaohm LOL Apr 12 02:28
oiaohm What is the problem with only 1 coder. Apr 12 02:28
seller_liar oiaohm:  only 1 coder can , fix bug one by one Apr 12 02:28
seller_liar oiaohm: features not Apr 12 02:28
oiaohm Lack of means to look at problem from different points of view and fix the problem in the most effective way. Apr 12 02:28
seller_liar oiaohm: features needs a lot of coders Apr 12 02:28
twitter if only one person is interested in the software, the software is of little interest. Apr 12 02:29
oiaohm So 1 coder you end up with a crap program in most cases. Apr 12 02:29
oiaohm due to that coders lack of skill. Apr 12 02:29
seller_liar oiaohm: But sometimes we need to live this way Apr 12 02:29
oiaohm A project with one coder is not living its dieing. Apr 12 02:29
seller_liar In fact free software existis to replace proprietary software Apr 12 02:30
oiaohm No Apr 12 02:30
seller_liar Amarok to replace windows media player Apr 12 02:30
oiaohm Free software existed before proprietary software. Apr 12 02:30
oiaohm proprietary software is the latter invention. Apr 12 02:30
seller_liar It windows media player or winamp don t exist , people don get interest to do a player Apr 12 02:30
oiaohm LOL Apr 12 02:31
twitter free software exists because people want to make their computers work and they want to do it with freedom and cooperation Apr 12 02:31
oiaohm There were media players before both of them. Apr 12 02:31
seller_liar Soory , bad idea Apr 12 02:31
seller_liar Again Apr 12 02:31
oiaohm Companies use open soruce for cooperation with each other. Apr 12 02:31
seller_liar The need for features in free software  exist because someone have created features in proprietary software Apr 12 02:32
oiaohm So they can have bigger coding teams and get better quality code with the features they need. Apr 12 02:32
twitter You think people need to see a commercial player to want their computers to play music? Apr 12 02:32
oiaohm Blender has some features no proprietray software currently in production has. Apr 12 02:32
seller_liar If some features don t exist in proprietray software , then the free software don t need to implement such features Apr 12 02:32
oiaohm And those were added in the time of Open source. Apr 12 02:33
seller_liar only and , if only , the coder wants Apr 12 02:33
oiaohm And those features come from commerical coders working for video prodution companies. Apr 12 02:33
oiaohm Like the Linux kernel 80 perent of it patches come from commerical coders. Apr 12 02:34
seller_liar Free software is not obligated to implement features , if the same features don t exist in proprietary software Apr 12 02:34
oiaohm People don’t understand most of great open source project is work by commerial coders. Apr 12 02:34
seller_liar because people don want features because these features does not even exist Apr 12 02:35
oiaohm Free software don’t have to create features that exist in propriertay software eitehr. Apr 12 02:35
oiaohm Like blender is not going to copy some features of maya. Apr 12 02:35
oiaohm Like the maya scripting language. Apr 12 02:35
seller_liar oiaohm: maya is more popular Apr 12 02:35
oiaohm LOL Apr 12 02:36
oiaohm Maya and blender are equal on usage. Apr 12 02:36
seller_liar oiaohm: not because of scripting language ,but because another movie-tech features Apr 12 02:36
oiaohm To be correct blender is more used. Apr 12 02:36
oiaohm Main reason is the freedom to add features as needed. Apr 12 02:36
oiaohm Maya cannot do something you are basically stuffed. Apr 12 02:37
oiaohm Blender here coder make this for me. Apr 12 02:37
seller_liar oiaohm: But this causes serious problems to free software Apr 12 02:37
oiaohm No it does not. Apr 12 02:37
seller_liar oiaohm: because , it needs more coders to maintenance and implement features Apr 12 02:37
seller_liar oiaohm: We don t implement features all the time if people don t need Apr 12 02:37
oiaohm And they are simple to get. Apr 12 02:37
oiaohm Project who does not fear intergrating with commerical does not have problems. Apr 12 02:38
seller_liar oiaohm: Again , the big problem in free software is the features Apr 12 02:38
oiaohm No Apr 12 02:38
seller_liar oiaohm: because it costs too much Apr 12 02:38
oiaohm Nop Apr 12 02:38
oiaohm Cost is not the issue. Apr 12 02:39
seller_liar oiaohm: Yes , it is Apr 12 02:39
oiaohm Why can ammorok have full time coders and rymthombox cannot. Apr 12 02:39
seller_liar look rhythmbox Apr 12 02:39
oiaohm Why can 1 have it and the other not. Apr 12 02:39
seller_liar To implement a lot of features Apr 12 02:40
oiaohm KDE does not fear working with commericals Apr 12 02:40
oiaohm To be correct they go out of there way to get there. Apr 12 02:40
seller_liar oiaohm:But this causes dependancy Apr 12 02:40
seller_liar oiaohm: We need to boycott novell because novell is crazy Apr 12 02:40
oiaohm Not if you have enough competeting companies. Apr 12 02:40
seller_liar but we don t because novell helps a lot of projects Apr 12 02:41
seller_liar you see? Apr 12 02:41
seller_liar commecial support creates dependency Apr 12 02:41
oiaohm Gnome never went out of it way to get more than one sponscor. Apr 12 02:41
oiaohm Single entity commerial support creates dependancy. Apr 12 02:41
oiaohm Projects like the Linux kernel with many companies there is really not a dependency problem. Apr 12 02:42
seller_liar oiaohm: But only a few projects has more than one sponsor Apr 12 02:42
oiaohm Have those projects tried to get more. Apr 12 02:42
oiaohm As they should have. Apr 12 02:42
seller_liar oiaohm: It’s not sooo easyt Apr 12 02:42
oiaohm Supprising it is. Apr 12 02:42
oiaohm Ammrok went from 0 to 15 in 1 month. Apr 12 02:43
seller_liar oiaohm: It depends Apr 12 02:43
seller_liar oiaohm: Some companies like microsoft put very constraints in novell Apr 12 02:43
oiaohm so why deal with Novell. Apr 12 02:43
seller_liar IBM is very radical in Linux foundation Apr 12 02:43
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seller_liar Linux foundation because of sponsor loses the interest in free software Apr 12 02:45
oiaohm LOL Apr 12 02:45
oiaohm Linux foundation why was it created. Apr 12 02:45
oiaohm It was a solution to a bidding war to employ linus. Apr 12 02:46
seller_liar oiaohm: Linux foundation does not have interest in fsf Apr 12 02:46
oiaohm Why should it. Apr 12 02:46
seller_liar oiaohm: OpenSource sponsored does not change nothing Apr 12 02:46
oiaohm It exists to support Linux. Apr 12 02:46
oiaohm Just like the KDE foundation exists to support KDE. Apr 12 02:47
seller_liar Yes , but sponsor interests is put in first priority Apr 12 02:47
seller_liar Like mono in gnome Apr 12 02:48
oiaohm Lead coder has more effects than sponsor Apr 12 02:49
oiaohm TPM support in Linux kernel is a good example of that. Apr 12 02:49
seller_liar haha , do  you believe in such lie? Apr 12 02:49
oiaohm IBM patch was rejected may times.  sponsorship did not change the outcome of quality checks. Apr 12 02:50
oiaohm When sponsor appoints the lead coder then you have a problem. Apr 12 02:50
oiaohm Gnome again. Apr 12 02:50
seller_liar Ok you win! Apr 12 02:51
seller_liar But I think the real problem in software is the lack of investiment in documentation Apr 12 02:51
oiaohm You don’t get documtation while people are run of there feet fixing things. Apr 12 02:51
seller_liar not only stupid doxyfiles , but a compllete explanation of software (development aspects ,algorithms, coding etc…. Apr 12 02:52
oiaohm Because documentation writers get pissed of at things changing. Apr 12 02:52
oiaohm And leave. Apr 12 02:52
seller_liar oiaohm: The solution is enforce to document every commit Apr 12 02:52
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oiaohm Maintaince stable is key to documentation. Apr 12 02:52
oiaohm All problems start from one point. Apr 12 02:53
oiaohm The coders. Apr 12 02:53
seller_liar and documentation have a price, but it helps the obtains more coders Apr 12 02:53
oiaohm Remember documentaiton that is valid cannot be formed without stable mainatince from the existing coders. Apr 12 02:54
oiaohm Existing coders can basically kill the project future. Apr 12 02:54
seller_liar of course , it like tests , but good documentation attract more devs Apr 12 02:54
oiaohm Valid documenation. Apr 12 02:54
oiaohm Ok does not have to be great. Apr 12 02:54
oiaohm But it must be correct.  Nothing is worse for a new developer following a document that is incorrect. Apr 12 02:55
oiaohm No documentation is better than invalid. Apr 12 02:55
seller_liar It’s more better than undocumented Apr 12 02:56
seller_liar seller_liar: The problem is lack of accessible documentation Apr 12 02:56
seller_liar oiaohm: We need to write very easy documentation for beginners Apr 12 02:57
seller_liar doxyfiles are not good documentation for beginners Apr 12 02:57
seller_liar doxyfiles helps only developers Apr 12 02:57
seller_liar I hate doxyfiles! Apr 12 02:57
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seller_liar Do you have some idea to remove mono from ubuntu and all other distros? Apr 12 03:06
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jose schestowitz, for when you get back, here are two links. If you have them, no harm in repeating I suppose: Apr 12 03:48
jose http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald… Apr 12 03:48
jose http://www.salon.com/opinio… Apr 12 03:48
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DaemonFC “I am not just a fanboy, my hatred of them runs deep and on many levels” -Me Apr 12 06:38
DaemonFC B-) Apr 12 06:38
DaemonFC “them” refers to Apple and Microsoft Apr 12 06:38
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DaemonFC schestowitz: Someone from Microsoft emailed me Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz Of course Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz Offered you something Apr 12 08:40
DaemonFC their official line on the NTFS data corruption issue is a SATA bug Apr 12 08:40
DaemonFC in Windows 7 build 7057 Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz I heard about it before Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz They isolate dissent Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz They have agencies to track this Apr 12 08:40
DaemonFC no, they haven’t offered me anything Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz WaggenerE Apr 12 08:40
schestowitz DaemonFC: probably being polite to change one’s opinion Apr 12 08:41
schestowitz I read stories about how they work Apr 12 08:41
DaemonFC schestowitz: I’d probably take the bribe then not do the positive retraction bit Apr 12 08:41
DaemonFC B-) Apr 12 08:41
schestowitz In other cases they offered gifts Apr 12 08:41
schestowitz Like to CharlieD from The Inquirer Apr 12 08:41
schestowitz because he wrote scathing reports about Vista Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFC schestowitz: “I’m writing this entry on the laptop Microsoft tried to buy me with, it runs Linux now, I still hate Windows but I appreciate the gift” Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFC lol Apr 12 08:42
schestowitz The very fact that they contacted you is further confirmation of the Microsoft patrol for Vista7 defense Apr 12 08:42
schestowitz It’s a known thing Apr 12 08:42
schestowitz They hire people in agencies like Edelman for this Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFC they didn’t say they were MS Apr 12 08:42
schestowitz W-E gave laptop bribes Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFC but I traced the IP to a block MS owns Apr 12 08:42
DaemonFC so it was them Apr 12 08:42
schestowitz Any sig? Apr 12 08:43
schestowitz Maybe one of their agencies. Apr 12 08:43
DaemonFC and the guy knew too much about Windows 7 to not work for them Apr 12 08:43
DaemonFC well, they seem to be using Comcast lines in Minnesota Apr 12 08:43
DaemonFC cause I got a lot of hatemail from other IP blocks belonging to Comcast in Minnesota Apr 12 08:44
DaemonFC it was different IPs, but there were all in Minnesota and they belong to Comcast Apr 12 08:44
DaemonFC so I think MS is buying Comcast cable lines for these agencies to post comments with Apr 12 08:45
DaemonFC that way if they leave a comment on your blog it doesn’t look like it’s all coming from MS Apr 12 08:45
DaemonFC it’s pretty funny really, it’s been everything from unintelligible cursing to “You were doing it wrong” to this latest response Apr 12 08:46
DaemonFC I think it’s all one guy and he’s a meat puppet Apr 12 08:47
DaemonFC If I was thinking more I would have saved them Apr 12 08:48
DaemonFC but it didn’t occur to me how much of that I was getting til just now Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz They hire for that Apr 12 08:49
DaemonFC so it will be interesting to see how much more I get Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz Microsoft employees blew the whistle Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz BN gets comments from Novell employees too Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz In disguise Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz They got caught Apr 12 08:49
DaemonFC heh Apr 12 08:49
DaemonFC Nothing like telling what you really feel about their product Apr 12 08:49
schestowitz It’s like the MS Statsi Apr 12 08:50
schestowitz Not sure about the spelling.. pronnounciation Apr 12 08:50
DaemonFC if they paid programmers to fix Windows instead of street gangs to harass bloggers Apr 12 08:50
schestowitz They have you checked now Apr 12 08:50
DaemonFC maybe this stuff would get fixed Apr 12 08:50
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stazi Apr 12 08:50
DaemonFC I know what that is Apr 12 08:50
DaemonFC but it seems like if they spent money on fixing Windows instead of advertising and trying to threaten and bribe Apr 12 08:51
DaemonFC then their product would be good Apr 12 08:51
DaemonFC and advertise itself Apr 12 08:51
DaemonFC I think Apple had an ad making fun of that Apr 12 08:51
DaemonFC :) Apr 12 08:51
schestowitz It’s the ‘Homeland Security’ of Germany at the time BTW Apr 12 08:51
schestowitz DaemonFC: it’s something like that with advertising, yes… Apr 12 08:52
schestowitz They put 300/500m in the pot Apr 12 08:52
schestowitz Back around Mojava/Seinfeld days Apr 12 08:52
schestowitz *Mojave Apr 12 08:52
DaemonFC $500 million would hire many programmers for many man hours Apr 12 08:52
schestowitz These campaigns dfid not work Apr 12 08:52
DaemonFC and could sort Windows out into a decent system Apr 12 08:52
DaemonFC and instead they hire Seinfeld Apr 12 08:52
schestowitz Plan B was publicity stunts with betas and pre-betas Apr 12 08:53
schestowitz One person in ZDNet said half a billion Apr 12 08:53
schestowitz “If you can’t make it good, at least make it look good.” –Bill gates Apr 12 08:53
schestowitz DaemonFC: I jnow they could us eprogrammers Apr 12 08:53
schestowitz But it ain’t enough Apr 12 08:54
schestowitz Also, Vista 7 is developed in Bangalore AFAIK Apr 12 08:54
DaemonFC wouldn’t surprise me Apr 12 08:54
DaemonFC IE is Apr 12 08:54
DaemonFC schestowitz: IE 8 has gotten a lot better, unfortunately it was in the pits when they started actively developing it again Apr 12 08:56
DaemonFC so it’s still years behind the others Apr 12 08:56
DaemonFC I dunno, I’m using IE on that test system while I kick Windows 7 around Apr 12 08:57
DaemonFC I don’t see myself buying 7 tthough Apr 12 08:57
schestowitz Is it not a ‘free’ upgrade? Apr 12 08:59
schestowitz To Vista victim (the first edition)? Apr 12 08:59
schestowitz Another review of Vista 7: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/1… Apr 12 09:00
DaemonFC schestowitz: Vista was the last straw for me Apr 12 09:10
DaemonFC I only checked out 7 cause the beta is free Apr 12 09:11
schestowitz I would not bother myself Apr 12 09:11
DaemonFC I didn’t even buy Vista, I got a remanufactured PC and they said No OS, and left the last guy’s Vista copy on there Apr 12 09:11
DaemonFC his data and all Apr 12 09:11
schestowitz New PCs will be saddled with Vista7 Apr 12 09:11
DaemonFC so I figured since I had it, I’d use it for a few days and see if I liked it Apr 12 09:11
schestowitz But not many people buy PCs Apr 12 09:11
schestowitz China is the fastest growing economy now Apr 12 09:12
DaemonFC well of course Apr 12 09:12
DaemonFC everyone else in the world is buying crap from China Apr 12 09:12
DaemonFC and trying to be a country of IP owners Apr 12 09:13
DaemonFC that’s what the WTO is, they’re the patent enforcement muscle Apr 12 09:13
DaemonFC schestowitz: Basically, widespread unemployment was always going to be the result of this Apr 12 09:14
DaemonFC the wealthy elite knew it 20 years ago, they didn’t care cause they are the few that benefit Apr 12 09:14
schestowitz Yes, hence some secret summits Apr 12 09:18
schestowitz Topic: “how to cope with world power transition” Apr 12 09:18
DaemonFC schestowitz: Unemployment in this area is 10% or higher, and that’s just what the government is admitting Apr 12 09:19
DaemonFC some areas of this state are at 15% or more Apr 12 09:19
DaemonFC politicians always know how to wedge in divisive social issues to take the focus off this stuff Apr 12 09:20
DaemonFC and they always extend unemployment benefits in an election year Apr 12 09:20
DaemonFC people are conditioned by this society to want a quick fix and not a long term solution, they think in the term of today or this week Apr 12 09:21
DaemonFC not what happens to them in 10 years Apr 12 09:22
schestowitz The state of Microsoft security this week: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/12/… Apr 12 09:22
schestowitz DaemonFC: not true Apr 12 09:22
schestowitz Unemployment is much higher Apr 12 09:22
schestowitz They deceive the American public Apr 12 09:22
DaemonFC schestowitz: I ran the numbers on the Conficker thing installing the fack antivirus Apr 12 09:22
schestowitz They changed the way they count Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz it creats optimism Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz Also, it makes the numbers not comparable Apr 12 09:23
DaemonFC if even 1% of users pay the $50 ransom, then the virus author makes $10 million Apr 12 09:23
DaemonFC assuming 20 million infected PCs Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz Like, they not have an ‘expiration’ on unemployment statis Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz So that they can show disparity wrt The Great Depression Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz It’s a well known fact to those who /check/ Apr 12 09:23
schestowitz Agreed about social issues. Clash of civilisation deflect the issues Apr 12 09:24
schestowitz *tions Apr 12 09:24
DaemonFC schestowitz: By my calculations, it’s actually more profitable to write viruses for Windows than legitimate software Apr 12 09:25
schestowitz DaemonFC: the economics of cybercrime are a brute-force thing Apr 12 09:25
schestowitz And it triples by some criteria. Skilled engineers out of work and money lends to the problem Apr 12 09:25
DaemonFC you mean like “Microsoft laid me off, I know the ins and outs of Windows, I can make a ransomware virus that spreads unchecked.” Apr 12 09:26
schestowitz That too Apr 12 09:27
schestowitz I thought about it Apr 12 09:27
schestowitz Disgruntled employees don’t need to become crackers Apr 12 09:27
schestowitz But they can sell source code Apr 12 09:27
DaemonFC true Apr 12 09:27
DaemonFC I saw the NT4/Windows 2000 source that leaked Apr 12 09:28
DaemonFC years back Apr 12 09:28
DaemonFC only a portion of it Apr 12 09:28
DaemonFC it got swiped off a system that belonged to a company that was using it to port Internet Explorer to UNIX Apr 12 09:28
schestowitz It’s impossible to prevent uch leaks Apr 12 09:29
schestowitz The code must be assumed to have already be leaked Apr 12 09:29
schestowitz Might as we go Free software Apr 12 09:29
schestowitz Same with the music and gaming industry (DRM) Apr 12 09:30
schestowitz I can assure you there are WIndows source code leaks that DONT end up on the Net Apr 12 09:30
schestowitz It’s enough to have a Microsoft employee with a stolen laptop. That too is a leak Apr 12 09:30
DaemonFC yeah Apr 12 09:31
DaemonFC well, the shared source thing makes it worse Apr 12 09:31
schestowitz Here in the UK there are many similar discussions about large database because they ALWAYS get leaked sooner or later. Not to the INTERNET… to people who can use this data to advertise, defraud, etc. Apr 12 09:31
schestowitz *databases Apr 12 09:31
DaemonFC cause then you have governments and other organizations with source code Apr 12 09:31
schestowitz http://twitter.com/_Goblin/s… “_Goblin Windows 7: “Driver trashes OS” – Whats to come when it hits the shelves? “ Apr 12 09:32
schestowitz Phew. That was FAST. Apr 12 09:32
DaemonFC “How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb? None. Their marketing team tells you to buy a new lamp.” -Me Apr 12 09:33
DaemonFC :) Apr 12 09:33
oiaohm Really its not that. Apr 12 09:35
oiaohm Its numbers of developers. Apr 12 09:35
DaemonFC that was my point Apr 12 09:35
DaemonFC the more people that have the code, the more the chance that someone leaks it Apr 12 09:35
schestowitz oiaohm: maybe Microsoft will be shaved Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz Until the skin which is Windows and Office remains Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz No Encarta, no MSN.. Apr 12 09:36
oiaohm Basically Microsoft engineers and a light bulb fails its not important because they are too busy holding up the walls so the roof don’t fall in Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz MSN is still losing LOADS of money Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz But it’s the only way Microsoft can hit Google in the pocket Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz So it’s stratgic suicide to give up and stop the pain Apr 12 09:36
schestowitz They rely on the Bartz/Icahn plants of theirs now. Apr 12 09:37
schestowitz Two phony ‘businesspeople’ Apr 12 09:37
oiaohm MS has no option bar to do stratgic suicide and hope Windows 7 sells. Apr 12 09:37
DaemonFC how can you LOSE money when you sell people nothing for hundreds of dollars? Apr 12 09:37
schestowitz DaemonFC: chances of leaks increase because of offshoring Apr 12 09:37
schestowitz Vista 7 is developed in India Apr 12 09:37
schestowitz The rules there might be different Apr 12 09:37
oiaohm How much do you think it costs to develop a OS. Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz The only way they ‘control’ leaks is by dividing Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz This costs in terms of quality Apr 12 09:38
oiaohm Remember UNIX’s useless to sell at 3000 dollars a copy to recovery development costs. Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz The WSJ confirmed that one employee will be given just one part of the system Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz No access to other parts Apr 12 09:38
oiaohm MS under cut now they are paying. Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz So they can’t integrate properly Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz That’s why Longhorn died when WSJ wrote about it Apr 12 09:38
schestowitz “Code spaghetti” Apr 12 09:38
DaemonFC oh that’s not important, if you sell tens or hundreds of millions of copies of it at hundreds of dollars for the cost of a CD and a box, you can make any costs up Apr 12 09:39
oiaohm Remember Vista development costs were more than what it costs to go to the moon. Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz BS Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz That’s what they say Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz It makes people value it Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz Perceived value Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz They said 6 billiob Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz They count also Longhorn which was trashed Apr 12 09:39
DaemonFC And at least the astronauts got to play golf. Apr 12 09:39
schestowitz And these numbers are as made up as the MPAA’s Apr 12 09:40
schestowitz Or the BSA (they hire firms to cook the numbers) Apr 12 09:40
oiaohm Also ms has to pay patents on every copy sold. Apr 12 09:40
schestowitz oiaohm: yes, that too Apr 12 09:40
schestowitz Which is why, as we mentioned days ago, the ‘piracy’ issue is serious Apr 12 09:40
oiaohm XP in netbooks is basically zero profit. Apr 12 09:40
schestowitz Microsoft can lose per copy Apr 12 09:40
schestowitz So when people pay zilch for Windows, Microsoft can be held liable for the costs of the patents involved. Apr 12 09:41
schestowitz oiaohm: assuming only that engineers who maintain XP cost nothing Apr 12 09:41
DaemonFC Hmmm, I never thought of that. If Microsoft is giving XP away free to dump it onto netbooks, but still have to pay to license things like MPEG by the copy, they can lose money. Apr 12 09:41
oiaohm Currently its 25 dollars. Apr 12 09:41
schestowitz If you sell something at a $5 margin, then you need to cut engineers too. Simple situation. Apr 12 09:41
oiaohm for XP what is basically break even on patents. Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz oiaohm: less than that Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz $5 in China Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz From a fairly reliable source Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz I saw $3 and $4 in other places Apr 12 09:42
oiaohm Yep less than the cost of patents. Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz They assemble these in China Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz They get it for $5 as a drop-in Apr 12 09:42
oiaohm So MS is bleeding money. Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz The OEMs are told to parrot other numbers Apr 12 09:42
oiaohm Fighting Linux. Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz Microsoft DOES not want people to know the real price Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz It devalues the OS Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz Like selling a fancy meal for $5 Apr 12 09:42
schestowitz Would you come the following week and pay $150 for the same meal? Apr 12 09:43
oiaohm Yep basically -20 Apr 12 09:43
oiaohm MS cannot aford to sell windows for 0 dollars. Apr 12 09:43
schestowitz It’s a marketing technique Apr 12 09:43
schestowitz Put high price tag Apr 12 09:43
schestowitz Make it look like a margain Apr 12 09:43
oiaohm It called offseting. Apr 12 09:43
schestowitz So Microsoft wants people to think that OEMs pay $200 for Windows Apr 12 09:43
schestowitz And any low cost of the machine is then “magic” Apr 12 09:44
schestowitz Reduced magically by 50%. Shopping channels harness this psychological technique pretty well. Apr 12 09:44
schestowitz People love to say what their stuff is worth Apr 12 09:44
schestowitz Not what they paid Apr 12 09:44
oiaohm How much is it costing to develop windows 7. Apr 12 09:44
DaemonFC schestowitz: My mom is in the market for a netbook Apr 12 09:44
schestowitz Like, “my iPhone is worth $600″ Apr 12 09:45
oiaohm Because that is also eating into the profit market. Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFC I was thinking a Dell Mini with Ubuntu? Apr 12 09:45
schestowitz [but... I bought it in eBay for $200... SHEESH] Apr 12 09:45
oiaohm Apple still made a profit at tht. Apr 12 09:45
schestowitz DaemonFC: these are good Apr 12 09:45
oiaohm that. Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFC Heh, my dad still uses OpenSuse Apr 12 09:45
schestowitz wispy from this channel bought one for her mom Apr 12 09:45
schestowitz She loves it Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFC he got used to it before the MS deal, back when they were good Apr 12 09:45
DaemonFC *sigh* Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz oiaohm: Microsoft has alreadt admitted netbook loss Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz They know it would be worse if Linux was sold Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz Linux sold =$0 to Microsoft Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz Windows sold =$0 to Microsoft Apr 12 09:46
oiaohm They fear Linux will spreed up market. Apr 12 09:46
DaemonFC schestowitz: He had all his partitions in ReiserFS when a hard disk crashed Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz Windows sold = more market share to Microsoft Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz Linux sold = less market share to Microsoft Apr 12 09:46
DaemonFC it wasn’t fun trying to recover his data Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz Simple equation Apr 12 09:46
schestowitz They talked about it internally Apr 12 09:46
oiaohm Reiserfs is evil. Apr 12 09:46
DaemonFC he got a new hard drive for it, I formatted it in XFS Apr 12 09:47
DaemonFC which is what I use Apr 12 09:47
schestowitz “under NO circumstance lose against Linux”: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/14… Apr 12 09:47
oiaohm Yep Apr 12 09:47
DaemonFC Reiser is a son of a bitch to try to recover Apr 12 09:47
schestowitz The cost (to MSFT) is the margins Apr 12 09:47
oiaohm Yet by following that they are breaking the bank. Apr 12 09:47
schestowitz Devaluation of stuff… like drugs going generic Apr 12 09:47
DaemonFC and if you try to rebuild the file system structure it can cause even more corruption Apr 12 09:48
oiaohm I do data recovery DaemonFC Apr 12 09:48
schestowitz The pharma cartel is being boosted by Melenda and Pearly by the way Apr 12 09:48
schestowitz Very evil stuff Apr 12 09:48
oiaohm I have only had to do 60 raiserfs systems so far. Apr 12 09:48
schestowitz They put price tag on health and then use taxpayers to pay for i Apr 12 09:48
schestowitz *it Apr 12 09:48
oiaohm I would take ext any day over it. Apr 12 09:48
DaemonFC oiaohm: I got used to XFS years ago Apr 12 09:48
DaemonFC it can toss around monster files like nothing Apr 12 09:49
DaemonFC love it Apr 12 09:49
oiaohm I have had borked XFS Apr 12 09:49
DaemonFC 2.6.30 just got 61 patches relating to XFS Apr 12 09:49
oiaohm To be correct there is not a single filesystem I have not had borked yet. Apr 12 09:50
DaemonFC that’s more patches than in the last 20 kernel releases put together Apr 12 09:50
oiaohm ZFS borked is hell. Apr 12 09:50
oiaohm Makes reiserfs look simple. Apr 12 09:50
DaemonFC meh, if it’s on a hard disk, don’t trust it Apr 12 09:50
DaemonFC XFS is a fairly good balance of everything Apr 12 09:50
oiaohm Lack of compression let XFS down. Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFC I don’t need that Apr 12 09:51
oiaohm Does become important when people are copying large files between drives. Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFC XFS has tremendously good performance in most cases Apr 12 09:51
oiaohm So it can happen quicker. Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFC deleting tons of small files can be a problem Apr 12 09:51
DaemonFC but that’s the only thing I’ve ran into really Apr 12 09:51
oiaohm Some of the patches in 2.6.30 will fix that up. Apr 12 09:52
oiaohm Part of the problem with small files deleting is a locking issue. Apr 12 09:52
DaemonFC yeah, side effect of the changes to the kernel because they care about Ext4 Apr 12 09:52
DaemonFC and XFS is being patched up to use the same facilities Apr 12 09:52
oiaohm Really not. Apr 12 09:52
oiaohm Linux kernel is having a massive internal clean up. Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFC XFS used to have to use an ioctl in the XFS driver to preallocate Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFC for example Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFC now there’s one in the kernel for Ext4 or any file system that does that Apr 12 09:53
oiaohm ioctl number is the same. Apr 12 09:53
oiaohm Just renamed to a generic name. Apr 12 09:53
DaemonFC ahhh Apr 12 09:53
oiaohm Since XFS Ext4 and Btrfs will use it. Apr 12 09:54
oiaohm And hopefully more. Apr 12 09:54
DaemonFC Yeah, XFS is less tempting with Ext4 available Apr 12 09:54
DaemonFC but it’s been debugged better, and it still has a few nice things Ext4 doesn’t Apr 12 09:54
oiaohm Ext4 has extents. Apr 12 09:55
DaemonFC yeah, there’s that Apr 12 09:55
DaemonFC but if you upgrade an ext3 fs you need to run e4defrag Apr 12 09:55
DaemonFC and that’s not included with e2fsprogs yet Apr 12 09:55
DaemonFC so most of your files will still be in the old format Apr 12 09:55
oiaohm There is a way to run e4defrag from a proc call. Apr 12 09:55
oiaohm Yes cat 1 > <rightfile> Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFC once e4defrag is out, upgrading from ext3 will make sense Apr 12 09:56
oiaohm the defrager is really in the kernel. Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFC oh? Apr 12 09:56
oiaohm ext4 has online defraging. Apr 12 09:56
DaemonFC so does XFS Apr 12 09:56
oiaohm Yep. Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFC through xfs_fsr Apr 12 09:57
oiaohm Basically all e4defrag does is push the right kernel switch. Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFC heh Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFC so you can use it without having e4defrag? Apr 12 09:57
oiaohm Yep Apr 12 09:57
DaemonFC how do you make it make a pass over every file on the disk? Apr 12 09:58
DaemonFC that’s worth posting somewhere Apr 12 09:58
DaemonFC hmmm, some of the changes in 2.6.30 sometimes make my system unstable after resume from S3 Apr 12 10:00
DaemonFC one build will freeze up after a while, the next build won’t Apr 12 10:00
DaemonFC it’s been off and on Apr 12 10:00
DaemonFC Linux ryan-desktop 2.6.30-rc1-git5-ryan1 #1 SMP PREEMPT Sat Apr 11 23:03:42 EDT 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux Apr 12 10:01
DaemonFC haven’t tried it with this one yet Apr 12 10:01
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oiaohm They are working on that s3 issue. Apr 12 10:03
oiaohm Its preempt releated. Apr 12 10:03
DaemonFC figures Apr 12 10:03
oiaohm Ie section that should not be preempted is being. Apr 12 10:03
oiaohm does not only  effect s3 Apr 12 10:04
oiaohm KVM had a nasty. Apr 12 10:04
oiaohm Left CPU in a undefined state. Apr 12 10:04
DaemonFC just preempt Apr 12 10:08
DaemonFC or is it a RCU preempt issue? Apr 12 10:08
DaemonFC I think RCU preempt has been known to cause more problems, right? Apr 12 10:09
DaemonFC that’s why it is separate setting I think Apr 12 10:09
DaemonFC (could be wrong) Apr 12 10:09
schestowitz When people say Microsoft is good for the US, show em this: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/04/… Apr 12 10:13
oiaohm preempt was the kvm issue. Apr 12 10:13
oiaohm section was not marked not be be preempted. Apr 12 10:14
oiaohm Section that is setting the cpu from now on settings for emulation. Apr 12 10:14
oiaohm Not a good thing ever to preempt. Apr 12 10:14
oiaohm Also you would have noticed that XFS frease and thaw has now moved out of XFS to a generic filesystem feature. Apr 12 10:15
DaemonFC schestowitz: http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/200… Apr 12 10:30
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schestowitz http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2009/04/new_pc_ba… Apr 12 10:40
schestowitz The angle on the Yahoo! story which the press somehow misses: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… Apr 12 10:51
MinceR j0 Apr 12 11:01
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oiaohm Yep windows seven is screwed. Apr 12 11:19
schestowitz Not yet Apr 12 11:19
schestowitz It doesn’t exist Apr 12 11:19
schestowitz It’s marketing thing Apr 12 11:19
oiaohm Its screwed. Apr 12 11:19
schestowitz And it floats on torrent for COMPUTER ENTHUSIASTS ONLY to use Apr 12 11:19
oiaohm If they don’t fix the NTFS driver. Apr 12 11:20
oiaohm It screwed truly. Apr 12 11:20
oiaohm NTFS driver was tried to speed up in windows 7 its now data loss central. Apr 12 11:20
schestowitz Maybe they’ll change before release? Apr 12 11:22
schestowitz There is lots they can do to spread coverage of it being ‘thin’ Apr 12 11:22
schestowitz Change FS parameters like latencies for quick boot, remove DRM temporarily, etc. Apr 12 11:22
schestowitz I heard that RC (not public) is worse than that touted beta Apr 12 11:22
oiaohm Any form of non planed shutdown on NTFS under Windows 7 will result in damaged filesystem. Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz Which means they may have cooked something Apr 12 11:23
oiaohm I have the RC Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz Ahh… Apr 12 11:23
MinceR they’re copying ext4 now Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz But they say it leaked Apr 12 11:23
MinceR ;) Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz Which I thought was a Microsoft lie Apr 12 11:23
oiaohm No legally have it. Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz To create sense of (artificial) scarcity Apr 12 11:23
schestowitz They must give devs the impression that this one will succeed Apr 12 11:24
schestowitz Chicken and eggs Apr 12 11:24
oiaohm What happens when you know a MS platuim partner. Apr 12 11:24
schestowitz If Vista7 is seen as DoA, then it WILL be Apr 12 11:24
schestowitz Because it would lack compatibility Apr 12 11:24
oiaohm Gave it to me for data recoverry assessment. Apr 12 11:24
oiaohm As you can guess the report was not good. Apr 12 11:25
oiaohm MinceR worse than ext4 fault. Apr 12 11:26
oiaohm Really ext4 fault is nothing major. Apr 12 11:26
MinceR i know, i was joking Apr 12 11:26
MinceR what’s the ntfs fault? Apr 12 11:27
oiaohm Complete obleteration of the MFT section of NTFS. Apr 12 11:27
oiaohm So basically sections of filesystem disappear. Apr 12 11:27
oiaohm Cause by dumb ness.  writing MFT interlink directions to blocks before all the data blocks of the MFT are written to disk. Apr 12 11:29
oiaohm Also doing that to backup copy of MFT before the data is written to disk. Apr 12 11:29
oiaohm Yes it saves a few clock cycles. Apr 12 11:30
oiaohm NTFS in vista would only loss a directory or two or 3 or 4. Apr 12 11:30
trmanco interesting -> http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story… Apr 12 11:31
DaemonFC schestowitz: This time Microsoft’s goons are posting comments on that video suggesting that I have “downs syndrome” Apr 12 11:32
DaemonFC I removed that comment though Apr 12 11:32
DaemonFC Can they think of nothing better to do? Apr 12 11:33
trmanco DaemonFC, what video? Apr 12 11:33
DaemonFC Logitech webcam software will destroy Windows 7 Apr 12 11:34
trmanco that’s cool Apr 12 11:35
trmanco nice feature btw Apr 12 11:35
trmanco :-P Apr 12 11:35
oiaohm There is better. Apr 12 11:36
oiaohm Try installing nortons. Apr 12 11:36
DaemonFC hah Apr 12 11:36
DaemonFC no thanks Apr 12 11:36
oiaohm In windows 7 Apr 12 11:37
DaemonFC last time I bought a Norton product was System Works ’98 Apr 12 11:37
DaemonFC its extensions to the Windows shell fucked Windows 98 beyond repair Apr 12 11:37
DaemonFC and I took it back to Walmart and bitched til they refunded it Apr 12 11:37
trmanco DaemonFC, where can I see that in action, the driver thing Apr 12 11:38
DaemonFC I caught a picture of what happens every time you reboot Apr 12 11:38
DaemonFC it never loads explorer Apr 12 11:38
DaemonFC but I got a picture of my monitor displaying the error Apr 12 11:38
DaemonFC http://img391.imageshack.us/img3… Apr 12 11:39
oiaohm Basically Windows 7 is less secure than XP. Apr 12 11:39
oiaohm Normal user cannot not screw up XP login screen completely. Apr 12 11:39
trmanco haha Apr 12 11:42
MinceR oiaohm: and pre-vista? Apr 12 11:44
MinceR i mean ntfs Apr 12 11:44
trmanco http://www.youtube.com/wa… Apr 12 11:46
trmanco hehe Apr 12 11:46
schestowitz Netscraft numbers are junk: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… Apr 12 11:47
schestowitz trmanco: identi.ca seems broken Apr 12 11:47
trmanco schestowitz, working here for now Apr 12 11:47
schestowitz Oh, it’s back now Apr 12 11:47
schestowitz DaemonFC: I heard that FUD before Apr 12 11:48
schestowitz The suggestion of atrophy of one sort Apr 12 11:49
schestowitz It can be all sort of things, like accusation of ‘transgendered’, gay, child molester, mentally ill, etc. Apr 12 11:49
DaemonFC I may just disable comments Apr 12 11:49
schestowitz The shills tried all the above against me cause they can’t fight the messages Apr 12 11:50
schestowitz “”Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency” –Microsoft < http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/… > Apr 12 11:51
schestowitz “We want to place selection pressure on those companies and individuals that show a genetic weakness for competitors’ technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time.” –Microsoft < http://boycottnovell.com/wp-cont… > Apr 12 11:51
DaemonFC schestowitz: I’m turning comment moderation on Apr 12 11:51
DaemonFC that way I can stop their attacks from ever showing Apr 12 11:52
trmanco DaemonFC, is that video yours? Apr 12 11:52
schestowitz DaemonFC: you’re articulate, so they try to characterise this as a flaw Apr 12 11:52
schestowitz very typical Apr 12 11:52
DaemonFC trmanco? Apr 12 11:52
DaemonFC which one? Apr 12 11:52
schestowitz Some idiots used to say that because I am able to post at a rapid pace, then I must be mentally challenged: -) Apr 12 11:52
trmanco this one -> http://www.youtube.com/wa… Apr 12 11:52
schestowitz trmanco: yes, it’s him Apr 12 11:53
trmanco ah, neat Apr 12 11:53
schestowitz It made the front page of FSDaily a moment ago Apr 12 11:53
schestowitz We’ll see how far it goes. Some people twit it too Apr 12 11:54
trmanco genius -> http://izanbardprince.wordpress.com/2009/… Apr 12 11:55
trmanco hahah Apr 12 11:55
trmanco something is wrong with identi.ca Apr 12 11:57
trmanco it’s giving me 500 errors at send message Apr 12 11:57
MinceR Fail Whale Emulation Enabled! Apr 12 11:57
trmanco http://test.portertech.org… Apr 12 11:59
trmanco MinceR, it’s just at send message, I can retrieve them perfectly Apr 12 11:59
MinceR ic Apr 12 11:59
DaemonFC schestowitz: I made a video explaining why ratings are turned off Apr 12 12:00
DaemonFC :P Apr 12 12:00
DaemonFC heh Apr 12 12:00
trmanco it works again Apr 12 12:01
schestowitz trmanco: yes, identica’s bas behaviour is erratic and random. Apr 12 12:01
schestowitz Some PHP errors too Apr 12 12:01
schestowitz Fatal error: Call to undefined function xmlrpc_encode_request() in /var/www/identi.ca/plugins/LinkbackPlugin.php on line 124 Apr 12 12:01
schestowitz DaemonFC: ignore them Apr 12 12:02
schestowitz They try to embarrass and humiliate critics. Oldest trick in the book. Apr 12 12:02
schestowitz http://www.google.com/search?q=s… Apr 12 12:02
trmanco identi.ca is taking an easter break Apr 12 12:04
schestowitz :-) Apr 12 12:10
schestowitz I’m gonna take a break myself. Back in a few hours, it’s sunny outside.. Apr 12 12:10
trmanco ok Apr 12 12:10
DaemonFC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTJcHHqfLeQ Apr 12 12:11
trmanco ;) Apr 12 12:13
trmanco they are starting to attack you like they do with schestowitz Apr 12 12:13
MinceR it would have been better as text Apr 12 12:17
trmanco MinceR, can’t play it? Apr 12 12:18
MinceR i could Apr 12 12:18
trmanco ah Apr 12 12:18
MinceR but it took a lot more time this way Apr 12 12:18
MinceR speech is slower than text :) Apr 12 12:19
trmanco yep Apr 12 12:19
DaemonFC http://www.youtube.com/watch?… Apr 12 12:19
DaemonFC ugggh Apr 12 12:19
trmanco lol Apr 12 12:22
MinceR :) Apr 12 12:22
DaemonFC I liked the “Matrix on Windows XP” one better Apr 12 12:23
DaemonFC they have some funny stuff Apr 12 12:23
DaemonFC MinceR: You know why they names it XP right? Apr 12 12:23
DaemonFC tilt your head to the left Apr 12 12:24
MinceR :) Apr 12 12:24
MinceR i’ve heard that one Apr 12 12:24
PetoKraus hmm Apr 12 12:25
DaemonFC http://www.youtube.com/watc… Apr 12 12:26
PetoKraus i’m looking at the Australian censored sites list Apr 12 12:26
PetoKraus at wikileaks Apr 12 12:26
PetoKraus it’s… inspiring. Apr 12 12:26
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_Hicham_ Hi oiaohm! Apr 12 12:36
oiaohm spammers will spam anything http://lkml.org/lkml/2009/4/12/23 Apr 12 12:36
oiaohm Hi _Hicham_ Apr 12 12:36
_Hicham_ have u  been spammed before oiaohm? Apr 12 12:36
oiaohm Yes Apr 12 12:36
oiaohm I have also generated a 1 tb + spam into a email account before showing a server error. Apr 12 12:37
_Hicham_ is there any effective spam filter? Apr 12 12:37
oiaohm there is no such thing as a 100 percent effective filter. Apr 12 12:38
oiaohm spamassisian and its releation do a good job. Apr 12 12:38
_Hicham_ what about bayesian ones? Apr 12 12:38
oiaohm http://wiki.apache.org/spam… Apr 12 12:39
oiaohm So Apr 12 12:40
MinceR SpamAssassin with score BAYES_99 5 Apr 12 12:40
MinceR is pretty good Apr 12 12:40
MinceR once you train the bayesian filter, of course Apr 12 12:40
oiaohm Spamassassin is one of the oldest main filtering techs. Apr 12 12:41
oiaohm it does not just depend on one trick _Hicham_ Apr 12 12:42
oiaohm It has black lists white lists Bayesin. Apr 12 12:42
oiaohm http://wiki.apache.org/spamas…  Trust paths Apr 12 12:43
oiaohm Basically single trick against spam is usless. Apr 12 12:43
_Hicham_ so u have to mix filters to be effective? Apr 12 12:46
_Hicham_ effective/efficient Apr 12 12:46
oiaohm Trust path is highly effective. Apr 12 12:46
oiaohm Since it cuts out fake addresses. Apr 12 12:46
oiaohm yet then you get people who have got themselves infected. Apr 12 12:47
oiaohm So mail coming on a valid path and they are on the whitelist. Apr 12 12:47
DaemonFC Actually the funny thing about arguing with me over who is at fault in Windows 7 is that you’re wrong either way, if it’s something in the kernel, then it’s signed by Microsoft, making it a Windows bug, and if it’s something outside the kernel that makes the kernel screw up, it’s a Windows bug, because the kernel has veto power. -Me Apr 12 12:47
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