10.20.20
Gemini version available ♊︎Bill Gates: “I’m Not a Lawyer” (He Dropped Out of College, Where He Studied Law Before and After Breaking the Law Chronically)
Summary: How Microsoft blackmailed other companies into supporting nothing but Microsoft and Windows; Bill Gates repeatedly lied to the interrogators about it, then said “I’m not a lawyer” (IANAL) even though he went to college to become one, just like his father who died last month
THE Bill Gates deposition contained the following bit, which in retrospect sheds a lot of light on current affairs.
How so? Read on: (we’ve also highlighted the “I’m not a lawyer” part and it’s mostly about Intel)
1 Q Did you ask Intel to keep you apprised
2 of what software work Intel was doing?
3 A I think I made that request in vein on
4 several occasions, nothing ever came of it.
5 Q Is it your testimony that they refused
6 to keep you apprised of the software work they were
7 doing?
8 A No. I just said to them that if they
9 would -- whatever software work they were doing that
10 was intended to help Windows, they should talk to us
11 about it early on if they wanted to have the highest
12 probability that it would, in fact, achieve that
13 goal.
14 And unfortunately, we never achieved
15 that result; that is, they would do things related to
16 Windows that without talking to us in advance, and
17 then once they had done the work, there would be some
18 incompatibilities between what they had done and
19 Windows itself.
20 Q When is the last time that you asked
21 Intel to keep you apprised of what software work they
22 were doing?
23 A I'm not sure.
24 Q Approximately when?
25 A I don't know.
485
1 Q Was it within the last year?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Was it within the last two years?
4 A I honestly don't know.
5 Q Was it within the last three years?
6 A There's probably one instance where I
7 asked them to tell us about things they were doing
8 related to Windows.
9 Q Did you or others, to your knowledge,
10 from Microsoft tell Intel that if Intel began to
11 compete with Microsoft, Microsoft would be forced to
12 begin to compete with Intel?
13 A No.
14 Q Not at all, sir; never said that in
15 words or in substance?
16 A No.
17 Q To your knowledge did anyone else from
18 Microsoft ever say that?
19 A I'm not aware of anybody saying that.
20 Q If anybody had said that, would you
21 consider that to be inconsistent with company policy?
22 MR. HEINER: Objection.
23 THE WITNESS: I'm confused. Intel and
24 Microsoft are not in the same businesses, so there's
25 no policy about one of our people suggesting that
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1 we're going to go into the chip business.
2 Q BY MR. BOIES: Was it part of what you
3 wanted to accomplish, Mr. Gates, to be to keep Intel
4 and Microsoft in separate businesses?
5 A No.
6 Q Did you ever take any action intended
7 to accomplish that?
8 A No.
9 Q Did you or, to your knowledge, anyone
10 from Microsoft ever tell people at Intel that
11 Microsoft would hold up support for Intel's
12 microprocessors if Intel didn't cooperate with
13 Microsoft in areas that Microsoft wanted Intel's
14 cooperation in?
15 A When we saw Intel doing the low quality
16 work that was creating incompatibilities in Windows
17 that served absolutely no Intel goal, we suggested to
18 Intel that that should change. And it became
19 frustrating to us because it was a long period of
20 time where they kept doing work that we thought,
21 although it was intended to be positive in the
22 Windows environment, it was actually negative. And
23 we did point out the irony of how while we seemed to
24 communicate with them on microprocessor issues and
25 yet they seemed on the areas where they were trying
487
1 to enhance Windows that the communication worked very
2 poorly.
3 Q Did you or others on behalf of
4 Microsoft tell Intel that Microsoft would hold up
5 support for Intel's microprocessors if Intel did not
6 cooperate with Microsoft?
7 A No.
8 Q No one ever told Intel that, to your
9 knowledge?
10 A That's right.
11 Q Let me see if I can refresh your
12 recollection.
13 Did you or anyone from Microsoft ever
14 tell Intel representatives that Microsoft would hold
15 up support for Intel's microprocessors if Intel
16 didn't cooperate with Microsoft on the Internet?
17 A No.
18 Q Did you or anyone from Microsoft ever
19 tell representatives of Intel that Intel would not
20 cooperate -- that if Intel would not cooperate with
21 Microsoft on communications programs, Microsoft would
22 hold up support for Intel's microprocessors?
23 A No.
24 Q Did you or to your knowledge anyone
25 from Microsoft ever tell Intel that you wanted Intel
488
1 to reduce its support of Netscape?
2 MR. HEINER: Objection.
3 THE WITNESS: It's very likely that our
4 sales force that calls on Intel as a software
5 customer talked to them about their web site and
6 their browsers. And they may have tried to convince
7 them to use our browser in terms of their internal
8 efforts. It's kind of a knit, but I think it's
9 possible.
10 Q Did you, Mr. Gates, ever yourself try
11 to get Intel to reduce its support of Netscape?
12 A I'm not aware of any work that Intel
13 did in supporting Netscape. They may have used their
14 browser internally or one of their server things, but
15 that's -- that's not really support. So I'm not sure
16 of any support they were giving to Netscape.
17 Q You may mean that to answer my
18 question, but I want to be clear.
19 It is your testimony that you're not
20 aware of any instance where you asked anybody at
21 Intel to reduce the support that Intel was providing
22 to Netscape; is that your testimony?
23 A No. I may have asked -- I may -- and I
24 don't remember it -- but I may have talked to them
25 about their internal browser use. I don't think so,
489
1 but I may have. And I may have talked to them about
2 their web servers and what they were using, but I
3 don't think so.
4 MR. HEINER: We would like to take one
5 last break here at some point, and we'll go through
6 until 4:00.
7 MR. BOIES: Okay.
8 MR. HEINER: Okay.
9 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:26.
10 We're going off the record.
11 (Recess.)
12 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: The time is 3:36.
13 We're going back on the record.
14 Q BY MR. BOIES: Mr. Gates, you're
15 familiar with a company called RealNetworks, are you
16 not?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Did you ever have any discussions with
19 any representative of RealNetworks concerning what
20 products RealNetworks should or should not offer or
21 distribute?
22 A No.
23 Q Microsoft signed two contracts with
24 RealNetworks, did it not, sir?
25 A I have no idea. I thought it was one.
490
1 Q RealNetworks was previously called
2 Progressive Networks; correct, sir?
3 A Right.
4 Q In the contract or contracts, if there
5 was more than one, between Microsoft and
6 RealNetworks, was there any restriction on what
7 services RealNetworks could provide to competitors of
8 Microsoft?
9 A I've never looked at those contracts.
10 Q Did you participate at all in those
11 contracts either the negotiation of those contracts
12 or discussions concerning those contracts prior to
13 the time they were entered into?
14 A I knew that Muglia and Maritz were
15 talking with Progressive about some kind of deal, but
16 I didn't know what was in the deal.
17 Q Did you know anything about what was in
18 the deal?
19 A I knew there was an investment piece.
20 I knew there was some code licensing in it. That's
21 about all.
22 Q At the time that Microsoft was
23 negotiating the contract or contracts with
24 RealNetworks -- and I'll refer to it as RealNetworks
25 even though at the time it was referred to as
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1 Progressive Networks -- did you consider that company
2 to be a competitor of Microsoft?
3 A Not -- I think I was confused about
4 what RealNetworks -- what their plans were, and I
5 wasn't sure if they were a competitor or not.
6 Q Was there a time when you did become
7 convinced that they were a competitor?
8 A Yes.
9 Q When was that?
10 A When Rob Glaser appeared in Washington,
11 D.C.
12 Q To testify before a Congressional
13 committee?
14 A Senate, yes.
15 Q What led you to conclude from
16 Mr. Glaser's testimony that RealNetworks was a
17 competitor of Microsoft?
18 A It was nothing in his testimony.
19 Q Why did you become convinced at the
20 time of his testimony that RealNetworks was a
21 competitor of Microsoft?
22 A Well, because he went out of his way to
23 lie about us, I sort of thought, "Hum, he must be a
24 competitor."
25 Q When you say he went out of his way to
492
1 lie about you, when was that?
2 A That was at the press interview
3 surrounding the testimony -- maybe the testimony
4 itself, I'm not sure. I've never seen a transcript.
5 Q Did you ever personally have a
6 conversation with Mr. Glaser about his business?
7 A A long, long time ago when Rob was just
8 getting started I think there was one meeting that I
9 had with Rob. I haven't met with him since then.
10 Q Was that meeting before or after the
11 contract between RealNetworks and Microsoft that you
12 say that you know about?
13 A If you mean the contract where we
14 invested in Progressive, it was years before it and
15 not at all related to it.
16 Q When was the contract in which you
17 invested in Progressive Networks or RealNetworks?
18 A I'm not sure. I'd guess it's about a
19 year ago.
20 Q Did you have a conversation with
21 Mr. Glaser a few days after that agreement was
22 signed?
23 A Now that you ask me that, maybe I did.
24 Maybe I did. I think we may have had a short
25 meeting.
493
1 Q And did you in that meeting tell
2 Mr. Glaser in words or in substance how you thought
3 he should limit his business?
4 A Absolutely not.
5 Q Not in any way, sir?
6 A Not in any way.
7 Q Did you tell him he ought to get out of
8 the base streaming media platform business?
9 A No.
10 Q Did anyone ever tell you that
11 Mr. Glaser had said he would get out of the base
12 streaming media platform business?
13 A No.
14 Q Did Mr. Maritz ever tell you that
15 Mr. Glaser's stated plan was that he would get out of
16 the base streaming media platform business?
17 A As far as I know, we didn't know what
18 Rob's plans were.
19 Q Did you ever try to find out what those
20 plans were, sir?
21 A No.
22 Q Were those plans important to you?
23 A To me personally? No.
24 Q Were they important to Microsoft?
25 A On a relative basis, I'd say no.
494
1 Q Well, I suppose on a relative basis a
2 business as big as Microsoft, I don't know what would
3 be important, but --
4 A I can tell you.
5 Q -- but on a non-relative basis?
6 A I can tell --
7 Q Yes. Tell me what would be important
8 to Microsoft on a relative basis.
9 A Improvements in Windows, improvements
10 in Office, breakthroughs in research, breakthroughs
11 in Back Office.
12 Q How about browsers? On a relative
13 basis would that be important -- was that important
14 to Microsoft?
15 A To the degree it relates to Windows,
16 yes.
17 Q What about Java or Java runtime? Was
18 that on a relative basis important to Microsoft?
19 A To the degree it related to Windows,
20 yes.
21 Q Let me ask you to look at a document
22 that we have marked Government Exhibit 379. This
23 purports to be an e-mail from Paul Maritz. You are
24 not shown on this as receiving a copy. The portion
25 I'm particularly interested in is the last full
495
1 paragraph that says, quote,
2 "Rob's stated plan is that
3 he will get out of the base streaming
4 media platform business, and focus on
5 higher level solutions, hosting, and
6 content aggregation, and says that
7 his goal is now to get us to get his
8 base technology as widespread as
9 possible," close quote.
10 Do you see that?
11 A Uh-huh.
12 (The document referred to was marked as
13 Government Exhibit 379 for identification and is
14 attached hereto.)
15 Q BY MR. BOIES: Did anyone ever tell
16 you, as Mr. Maritz writes here, that Mr. Glaser had
17 said that his stated plan was that he would get out
18 of the base streaming media platform business?
19 A No.
20 Q Did you or, to your knowledge, anyone
21 from Microsoft ever tell Mr. Glaser that he should
22 get out of the base streaming media platform
23 business?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.
496
1 You are aware, are you not, sir, that
2 one of the issues in this case is the extent to which
3 operating systems and browsers are or are not
4 separate products?
5 MR. HEINER: Objection.
6 Mischaracterizes the allegations of the complaint, I
7 believe.
8 MR. BOIES: Well, if the witness tells
9 me that he doesn't think that's an issue in the case,
10 he can so tell me.
11 THE WITNESS: I'm not a lawyer, so I
12 think it's very strange for me to opine on what's an
13 issue in the case. As far as I know, the issues in
14 the case are not -- are something that you decide,
15 and I don't claim to have any expertise at all.
16 Q BY MR. BOIES: And if you don't know,
17 that's okay. But one of the things that I want to
18 understand from you is whether your understanding,
19 which is important to my next line of questions, is
20 that the issue of whether or not browsers are or are
21 not a separate product from the operating system is
22 in this case.
23 MR. HEINER: Objection. What operating
24 system? What browsers? You referred to "the
25 operating system."
497
1 MR. BOIES: You want me to stop. All
2 right. I --
3 MR. HEINER: No. I want you to ask the
4 question but with specific specificity.
5 MR. BOIES: I've asked the question.
6 If he says he doesn't understand this question,
7 again, we put it down and then it's there for people
8 to look at later.
9 MR. HEINER: That's fine. You can do
10 that. And I, as his counsel, can pose an objection.
11 MR. BOIES: Yeah. But you can't pose
12 questions to me particularly when you're trying to
13 get the witness out at 4:00.
14 MR. HEINER: I can.
15 MR. BOIES: Not questions to me.
16 Q Mr. Gates -- you can put in an
17 objection, I'm not trying to keep you from putting in
18 an objection.
19 Mr. Gates, do you understand that the
20 issue of whether or not browsers are a separate
21 product or are not a separate product from the
22 operating system is an issue in this case?
23 A I don't consider myself someone who
24 could say if that's an issue in this case or not.
25 Q Have you participated in any way in
498
1 trying to get Microsoft personnel to use language
2 that would suggest that browsers and operating
3 systems are not separate products?
4 A I have no idea what you mean by that.
5 Q Well, have you seen e-mails that urge
6 people within Microsoft not to talk about browsers as
7 if they were separate from the operating system?
8 A I don't recall seeing any such e-mail.
9 Q Are you aware of any anybody within
10 Microsoft who has asserted, either in an e-mail or
11 otherwise, that people ought to not talk about
12 browsers as if they were separate from the operating
13 system?
14 A I don't remember any such e-mail.
15 Q Has Microsoft tried to get companies to
16 agree to statements that Internet Explorer comprises
17 part of the operating system of Windows 95 and
18 Windows 98?
19 A I know it's a true statement, but I'm
20 not aware of us doing anything to try to get anyone
21 else to endorse the statement.
22 Q You're not aware of any effort by
23 Microsoft to get non-Microsoft companies to endorse
24 the statement that Internet Explorer comprises part
25 of the operating system of Windows; is that what
499
1 you're saying?
2 A I'm not aware of such efforts.
3 Q Do you know whether Microsoft has made
4 any efforts to include language like that in any of
5 its license agreements?
6 A No, I don't.
7 Q Do you know why Microsoft might do
8 that?
9 MR. HEINER: Objection.
10 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure.
11 Q BY MR. BOIES: Do you recognize that
12 OEMs have a need to acquire the Windows operating
13 system that Microsoft licenses?
14 A What do you mean by OEM? Is it a
15 tautology because of the way you're defining it?
16 Q Well, if you take IBM and Compaq and
17 Dell, Gateway and some other companies, those are
18 commonly referred to as OEMs or PC manufacturers;
19 correct, sir?
20 A No. The term "OEM" would be quite a
21 bit broader than that. OEMs used means original
22 equipment manufacturer.
23 Q I see.
24 And does OEM have a specialized meaning
25 in your business to refer to people that supply
500
1 personal computers?
2 A No. It usually means our licensees.
3 Q And do your licensees, in part, supply
4 personal computers, sir?
5 A Some of our licensees.
6 Q The licensees to whom you license
7 Windows are suppliers of personal computers, are they
8 not, sir?
9 A If you exclude Windows CE and depending
10 on how you talk about workstations and servers.
11 Q So that if we can get on common ground,
12 the licensees for Windows 95 and Windows 98 would be
13 companies that you would recognize as personal
14 computer manufacturers; is that correct?
15 A Yeah. Almost all the licensees of
16 Windows 95 and Windows 98 are personal computer
17 manufacturers. Some are not, but the overwhelming
18 majority are.
Years later Gates said he was on a "Jihad" against Intel's support for Linux (apparently it's perfectly OK for a self-described "philanthropist" to speak like that). How little has changed since… █
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