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IRC #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 9th, 2008

*balzac ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 08 23:57
balzachelloJun 08 23:58
balzacI just read about Mark Shuttleworth licensing proprietary software from Microsoft.Jun 08 23:58
balzacThat really makes it clear that Mark Shuttleworth is not serious and I should be looking for another distro.Jun 08 23:58
moparxheyJun 08 23:59
balzachi moparxJun 08 23:59
balzacGnewsense or Debian - that's what I'm thinking about now...Jun 09 00:00
moparxlet the deciding begin :)Jun 09 00:01
balzacwell, I'm mulling it over. I really like aptitude.Jun 09 00:02
balzacI don't like the idea of being downstream of some project I don't really have full confidence in.Jun 09 00:02
balzacI don't yet know the implications of Ubuntu being downstream of debian or of Gnewsense being downstream of Ubuntu.Jun 09 00:03
balzacI want to get rid of any proprietary blobsJun 09 00:04
balzacI've compared the proprietary blobs in the Linux Kernel to a case of the measles.Jun 09 00:04
balzacwhat are you using, moparx?Jun 09 00:04
moparxI run arch linux & slackware right now. going to put together a debian machine soonJun 09 00:05
balzacI'm not happy when someone serves up proprietary crap in my distro's repository.Jun 09 00:07
balzacIt reminds me of when I order turkey bacon or turkey sausage and then I get paranoid I'm getting real bacon or real sausage.Jun 09 00:08
balzacI don't like being paranoid about my restaurants, nor about my linux distro.Jun 09 00:08
moparx*nod*Jun 09 00:08
balzacI wonder if debian keeps their repositories clean.Jun 09 00:09
balzacI think RMS is using Gnewsense, which is a cleaned-up, derivative of ubuntu.Jun 09 00:10
moparxhe is if I recall correctlyJun 09 00:10
balzacbut I don't like being downstream of some distro I don't have full confidence.Jun 09 00:10
moparx 09 00:11
balzacIt's like eating vegetables chopped on the same cutting board which had pork on it a minute ago and you get pork juices on your veggies.Jun 09 00:11
balzacthanksJun 09 00:12
moparxno problem :)Jun 09 00:12
balzacI guess he was favoring Utotu before.Jun 09 00:12
moparxIt is a shame that the list on that page is so smallJun 09 00:16
balzacI'm still getting data off of my last windows box so I can delete it.Jun 09 00:16
balzacI've been inspired by RMS to get rid of all non-free software and not to have contact with it except for during an emergency.Jun 09 00:17
balzacI'm going to get an open moko phone too, when new ones are available.Jun 09 00:17
balzacYeah, it's a shame the FSF budget is so low as well.Jun 09 00:17
moparxI'd love to have an open moko myselfJun 09 00:18
balzacIt's not easy for me as a web developer.Jun 09 00:18
balzacI'm checking my websites with a remote desktop session to a windows machine. I'm not direction "using" windows or IE.Jun 09 00:18
balzacBut I have to get my style sheets working right.Jun 09 00:18
moparx*nod*Jun 09 00:19
balzacTechnically, I'm downloading images of a windows session and sending clicks back.Jun 09 00:19
balzacthe RDC connection is kind of like a condom which keeps me from direct contact with windows.Jun 09 00:19
balzacBut I'd really like to not have to do that.Jun 09 00:20
balzacI can ask my friends to do what must be done with proprietary software, but it seems kind of hypocritical.Jun 09 00:20
balzacI have friends who develop flash and I'm glad we can do contracts which require it but I won't touch flash anymore.Jun 09 00:21
balzacI gave up photoshop, flash, dreamweaver, and all proprietary games. No more Halo on the Xbox.Jun 09 00:21
balzacIt's going to feel damned good to be rid of the last proprietary software in my life.Jun 09 00:23
moparxyou should play tremulous. it is a great open source multiplayer game :)Jun 09 00:23
balzacit's built in blender?Jun 09 00:24
moparxnahJun 09 00:24
balzacI'll try it out. I probably need a faster computer. I can barely play alien arena.Jun 09 00:25
moparxahJun 09 00:25
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*moparx yawnsJun 09 00:56
*tessier drops a prawn down moparx's gaping mawJun 09 00:57
moparx:(Jun 09 00:57
tessierWhat, you don't like prawns?Jun 09 00:57
moparxprawns as in the crustacean?Jun 09 00:58
tessieryeasJun 09 00:58
tessieryesJun 09 00:58
moparxto be honest I don't believe i've ever had themJun 09 00:59
moparx*hears crickets chirping* :pJun 09 01:01
moparx;_;Jun 09 01:04
moparxI do like shrimp though (they are close enough :p)Jun 09 01:12
tessierYes, they are quite similarJun 09 01:27
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dsmith_If just Acer, HP , Lenovo and Dell stop buying/selling windows today, microsoft will be bankruptcy tomorrow, and i mean literally.Jun 09 01:30
tessierThey have billions in the bank don't they? How would they go bankrupt tomorrow?Jun 09 01:35
tessierAt worst they would stop funding their money losing projectsJun 09 01:36
tessierBut there would still be more than enough people buying Windows to keep MS in businessJun 09 01:36
tessierThere are many small companies with far less revenue that remain afloatJun 09 01:36
dsmith_I was reposting something I readJun 09 01:37
dsmith_its a matter of choice, I want to pick my own OSJun 09 01:38
EruaranMicrosoft have literally billions in the bank, but that doesn't mean their share price wouldn't head south very quickly if they faced a significant backlash from OEM's.Jun 09 01:44
dsmith_hmmmmmmmmmmJun 09 01:44
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ghost_of_U_and_I[OBSCENITIES OMITTED]Jun 09 01:48
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Eruaransee :)Jun 09 01:53
dsmith_lolJun 09 01:56
dsmith_roy, dont post thatJun 09 01:57
dsmith_:PJun 09 01:57
*ZiggyFish ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 09 02:30
dsmith_hi ziggyJun 09 02:31
ZiggyFishgood morning (it is still morning (11:38:05))Jun 09 02:31
dsmith_its 9:38 pm heeJun 09 02:31
dsmith_*hereJun 09 02:31
moparxhey ZiggyFishJun 09 02:33
ZiggyFishheyJun 09 02:34
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ZiggyFishdsmith_: you must of been on the node the netsplit ocuured onJun 09 04:17
dsmith_*shrug*Jun 09 04:18
EruaranThe new krunner for kde 4.1 is way coolJun 09 04:26
EruaranYou can use it to find and launch programs, files, you can Google search with it, its predictive so it tries to guess what it is youre looking for as youre typing, and... you can teach it to do things it has never done beforeJun 09 04:29
moparxim guessing it is a quicksilver clone from the sound of itJun 09 04:41
moparxthat type of app is pretty coolJun 09 04:43
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schestowitzOK, I'm back  (been away for like 12 hours). dsmith, don't worry, I'll omit the foul-mouthed intrusion. It appears to always be the same person (via Tor).Jun 09 07:35
Eruaranhello schestowitzJun 09 07:38
schestowitzMicrosoft appears to be EEEing SourceForge: 09 07:58
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Eruaran*reads*Jun 09 08:00
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schestowitzJust done quick post about it: Microsoft Tries to Gradually Embrace & Extend SourceForge ( )Jun 09 08:26
EruaranIts like letting Monty Burns do recycling...Jun 09 08:29
Eruaran(if you've seen that episode)Jun 09 08:32
schestowitzI probably did many years ago. I've watched hundreds of episodes since I was 10, but this one no longer rings a bell.Jun 09 08:36
schestowitzMicrosoft is /already/ giving open source a bad name. It's part of the reason more people step back to "Free software" as the terminology of choice.Jun 09 08:37
EruaranApparrently reformed and committed to a non-evil recycling enterprise, it turns out that Mr Burns has not been reformed at all, and that he's evil even when he thinks he's doing good... He invents the omni-net, a net made of beer can plastic holders that wipes the ocean floors clean, doing massive environmental damage and uses what he scoops up to create Slurry, an all purpose... slurry...Jun 09 08:41
schestowitzOh, I think I remember that. Microsoft too 'helps' open source: 1) it makes brochures; 2) it reinforced the use of the words/terms "commercial", "people-ready", and "enterprise" in the context of open source; 3) It makes available software licences that are not as 'restrictive' as the GPL; 4) It helps open source work 'better' with Vista; 5) It makes open source 'interoperable' with OOXML-based software (think Blender 3D letter) and compatibJun 09 08:46
schestowitzle with Windows DRM.Jun 09 08:46
tessierYes, I am more and more convinced that Free Software is the way to go.Jun 09 09:13
tessierBut it is just so tedious always having to say Free (as in freedom ) Software and watching the cynics roll their eyes.Jun 09 09:13
schestowitzOpen source and FS used to be the same, but they diverged when OSI 'opened up' too much (CPAL, msX). Everyone wants a piece of the action (hype), but it becomes a party p00per.Jun 09 09:14
schestowitz"Libre software"?Jun 09 09:15
tessierEven weirder. You then have to explain latin or spanish or something.Jun 09 09:15
tessierRMS has been fighting/explaining this for years. There's just no good solution. :(Jun 09 09:16
tessierDamn our horrible english language.Jun 09 09:16
schestowitzHad it not been for this ambiguity, maybe open source would not have been born and FS accepted more quickly.Jun 09 09:18
schestowitzThen again, the term FS is akin to the 'playful cleverness' of terms like Gnu and Copyleft.Jun 09 09:19
EruaranI tend to agree with RMS and Eben Moglen when it comes to FS v Open SourceJun 09 09:39
EruaranI find it ironic that today the KDE team uses the term Free Software on their main site (after the Qt issues years ago), linking to the FSF and taking a firm position on Free Software while GNOME which oringinally came into being because people felt that KDE was not genuinely free, they now fiddle about with Mono and Silverlight...Jun 09 09:42
schestowitzMore people agree with them now that open source is derailed somewhat. Personally, rather than saying "Free software" to people who don't know it I just say "GPL", which is a widely used (most used) licence that many people are aware of.Jun 09 09:42
EruaranyesJun 09 09:43
benJImanPeople who think that free software must refer to price obviously havn't read the first 17 definitions of free 09 09:43
schestowitzHow about "Free /User/ Software"?Jun 09 09:44
PetoKrausFUSS?Jun 09 09:45
EruaranI think that GPL keeps things concise and clearJun 09 09:45
schestowitzNo muss, no fuss.Jun 09 09:45
benJImanFree software is not really ambigous. People don't think that when they read "Eggs from free hens" for example.Jun 09 09:45
Eruaranfree range software ?Jun 09 09:46
schestowitzBut Microsoft /tries/ to confuse.Jun 09 09:46
schestowitzWatch what Bill Gates did a month ago. He explicitly said to the audience that Microsoft does free software (dumpware) and then said that there it this 'GPL thingue', which "we don't agree with".Jun 09 09:46
schestowitzMark Shuttleworth has just posted a comment in Boycott Novell: 09 09:49
EruaranI'm glad Mark reads boycottnovellJun 09 09:55
PetoKrausyes.Jun 09 09:55
schestowitzIt was also in the Ubuntu mailing lists. It turns out that way anyway. I gave him a hard time with Gobuntu before. 09 09:57
schestowitzHe has always been a pragmatist due to commercial pressures.Jun 09 09:57
PetoKrauslolJun 09 10:14
PetoKrausMono in Gobuntu, which should be Free distribution?Jun 09 10:14
PetoKraushahaJun 09 10:16
PetoKrausthis is black humouruJun 09 10:16
PetoKrausFFx in Free distro... :DJun 09 10:16
schestowitzYes.Jun 09 10:17
PetoKraussmack him in face, pleaseJun 09 10:18
PetoKrausI mean, I use proprietary ATI driver, and proprietary intel microcode, and I don't even wanna know about codecsJun 09 10:19
PetoKrausbut saying that something is free, when it ISN'T.... that's stupid.Jun 09 10:19
schestowitzYou mean Gobuntu?Jun 09 10:25
schestowitzThe main problem at the time was that's it's an unfair advantage. Take gNewSense for example. They created a Ubuntu derivative (fair enough, like Debian->Ubuntu), but didn't take 'shortcuts of convenience'. The GNU operating system suffered from this in its early days when GNU/Linux operating system tried to boast added value with non-Free s/w.Jun 09 10:27
PetoKrausit's not only unfairJun 09 10:29
PetoKrausit's a lieJun 09 10:29
schestowitzAmong all my articles I think this was the only one that criticised a GNU/Linux distribution (and unsurprisingly hurt my relationship with Mark). He later took the advice and just decided to support gNewSense, not duplicate their effort.Jun 09 10:33
PetoKraus:)Jun 09 10:33
schestowitzBe ready for Canonical to become more like Mandriva, i.e. Fleundo-'enhanced' Ubuntu up for sale. Sure, it's speculative at this stage, by the first step has already been taken.Jun 09 11:17
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schestowitz Mark S: "I think that was added today. Our marketing team should not have put an mp4 up as the default, and when they saw this commentary they immediately apologized to the distro team for creating the wrong impression. I assume they have since published the ogg."Jun 09 17:31
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schestowitzWelcome, yuhongJun 09 17:58
*Sam1338 ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 09 18:02
Sam1338Down with capatalism!Jun 09 18:02
schestowitzHowdy.Jun 09 18:03
Sam1338hiJun 09 18:10
Sam1338Because they steal from the poor and give to the rich?Jun 09 18:11
Sam1338Sure they don't actually steal but they take money from people who don't need to give them money and don't actually want to give them money even though they think they do.Jun 09 18:12
schestowitzNovel, you mean?Jun 09 18:13
schestowitzNovell?Jun 09 18:13
Sam1338Do they do that?Jun 09 18:14
schestowitzThe Novell issue is different. The issue we explore here is how Free software gets pushed towards becoming proprietary.Jun 09 18:15
Sam1338Exactly.Jun 09 18:16
Sam1338That's why I wasn't referring to Novell.Jun 09 18:16
schestowitzI know you're a Phoronix reader (probably hardware enthusiast), so this can affect you too.Jun 09 18:16
Sam1338I'm not a hardware enthusiast. I bought my pc 3 years ago from pcworldJun 09 18:16
schestowitzWhile drivers become open (NDAs not being a big issue), software patents intrude.Jun 09 18:16
schestowitzI see you're posting via BT.Jun 09 18:17
Sam1338I only use phoronix to compare ati and nvidia gpus.Jun 09 18:17
schestowitzAnother issue is software patents being pushed towards Europe.Jun 09 18:17
Sam1338What's wrong with BT?Jun 09 18:17
schestowitzThe UK is already partly affected, due to recent developments.\Jun 09 18:17
schestowitzNothing wrong with BT.Jun 09 18:17
Sam1338Why mention BT then?Jun 09 18:17
zoobabBT is implementing DPIJun 09 18:17
schestowitzCanonical, which is UK-based, has just paid for proprietary codecs it puts in Remix.Jun 09 18:18
zoobabright nowJun 09 18:18
zoobabI thinkJun 09 18:18
Sam1338zoobab: What's DPI?Jun 09 18:18
zoobabDeep Packet InspectionJun 09 18:18
Sam1338zoobab: I don't like my ISP, they really suck, we're changing imminently.Jun 09 18:18
schestowitzI mentioned BT because you said PC world and I tried to figure out what patents laws apply where you live.Jun 09 18:18
schestowitzI too am in the UK.Jun 09 18:18
Sam1338I want to live in a world where all software is open source.Jun 09 18:19
schestowitzThat used to be the case.Jun 09 18:19
schestowitz1970s. Roughly.Jun 09 18:19
Sam1338I have limited the amount of proprietory software I use to a minimum. At the moment I only use proprietory software for games.Jun 09 18:20
zoobab 09 18:20
Sam1338Oh and flash but will install gnash soon.Jun 09 18:20
Sam1338BT Should be boycotted.Jun 09 18:21
Sam1338Damn evil companies ><Jun 09 18:21
schestowitzWell, as long as one can identify the issues.Jun 09 18:21
Sam1338They limit my legal Bittorrent download speeds to <20kbps during the day.Jun 09 18:22
schestowitzI try to dodge Flash where it's possible.Jun 09 18:22
schestowitzHuh?! They throttle by protocol? Isn't that illegal?Jun 09 18:22
Sam1338I guess not.Jun 09 18:22
Sam1338 judging by this, BT is the worst ISP EVERJun 09 18:23
Sam1338"throttles non-HTTP traffic"Jun 09 18:23
Sam1338limits bandwidth during certain times of the day: yesJun 09 18:23
Sam1338limits BitTorrent bandwidth: yesJun 09 18:23
Sam1338I can't get around the poor speeds.Jun 09 18:24
schestowitzThat's terrible. I'm glad that I still get campus-level iInternetJun 09 18:24
schestowitz100 MBSJun 09 18:24
Sam1338I can only download large linux isos at night :(Jun 09 18:24
Sam1338Even then it is quite slow.Jun 09 18:24
Sam1338I'm moving to Spain very soon.Jun 09 18:25
Sam1338To Madrid.Jun 09 18:25
Sam1338I bet ISPs are less evil over there.Jun 09 18:25
schestowitzThe US gets worse too. Comcast for starters.Jun 09 18:25
schestowitzBut anyway, a risk to Linux ISOs is another thing worth exploring because it related to IPR (copyrights), which is exploited to stifle competition (again)Jun 09 18:26
Sam1338zomfgJun 09 18:27
Sam1338Yeah so I am a Phoronix reader as it has some quite good articles there, but I am by no means a hardware enthusiast with a super powerful water cooling machine or whatever. I've also lived in the UK all my life but will probably move to Spain with my mother and her boyfriend quite soon.Jun 09 18:29
schestowitzThat would need to get you interested in cooling machines.Jun 09 18:29
Sam1338I'm going to upgrade my graphics card later on this year so I've been reading Phoronix articles on the open source ati progress.Jun 09 18:29
Sam1338Why, because it's hot in Spain?Jun 09 18:30
schestowitzThe benchmarks on the site have always been unique.. Someone needed to do it. It has partly encouraged GPU makers to seriously consider Linux as well.Jun 09 18:30
schestowitzYes. I hardly make use of my ATI card. It's just used for dual-heading (4000 pixels in width)Jun 09 18:31
Sam1338I threw away my ati card and got an nvidia card last year because the performance was TERRIBLE.Jun 09 18:31
Sam1338I'm thinking of making the switch back and making my computer 100% open source some time.Jun 09 18:32
schestowitzNVIDIA might go open source soon. Micheal told me.Jun 09 18:32
Sam1338With the exception of a few games :)Jun 09 18:32
Sam1338I wish.Jun 09 18:33
Sam1338Who's Michael?Jun 09 18:33
schestowitzI hardly play games. I was addicted to some and learned my lessons. :-)Jun 09 18:33
schestowitzThe Phoronix chap.Jun 09 18:33
Sam1338Ati already has fully functional open source drivers for a lot of their graphics cards, Nvidia has a lot of catching up to do.Jun 09 18:33
Sam1338I get addicted to games.Jun 09 18:34
Sam1338Especially the ones where you 'lvl up'.Jun 09 18:34
schestowitzIntel wants to kill both (AMD and NVIDIA), but that's another story.Jun 09 18:34
Sam1338ut2k4-rpg is what I'm addicted to atmJun 09 18:34
schestowitzFree software or proprietary?Jun 09 18:34
Sam1338Intel's graphics are so slow though.Jun 09 18:35
schestowitzI can't remember because of UT3Jun 09 18:35
Sam1338Proprietary :(Jun 09 18:35
schestowitzI think that's... oh, yeah... and the Microsoft rumours came.Jun 09 18:35
Sam1338UT3 doesn't run on Linux :( I got it working in Wine but not very well, unplayable really.Jun 09 18:35
schestowitzThat too is something we covered in BoycottNovell. Assuming there's substance to this, it's part of the pattern.Jun 09 18:35
*Sam1338 plans to remove the words "contrib non-free" from his /etc/apt/sources.list around the time of Lenny's finished release.Jun 09 18:40
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[H]omerHiJun 09 21:27
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moparxheyJun 09 21:50
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dsmith_ok roy, I asked my question regardinf lenovo and freedos being withdrawn, he is going to find out for meJun 09 23:33

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Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Bad faith: real origins of harassment and evidence
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Links 21/04/2024: Censorship Abundant, More Decisions to Quit Social Control Media
Links for the day
Bad faith: Debian Community domain used for harassment after WIPO seizure
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
If Red Hat/IBM Was a Restaurant...
Two hours ago in
Why We Republish Articles From Debian Disguised.Work (Formerly Debian.Community)
articles at aren't easy to find
Google: We Run and Fund Diversity Programs, Please Ignore How Our Own Staff Behaves
censorship is done by the recipients of the grants
Paul Tagliamonte & Debian Outreachy OPW dating
Reprinted with permission from
Disguised.Work unmasked, Debian-private fresh leaks
Reprinted with permission from
[Meme] Fake European Patents Helped Fund the War on Ukraine
The European Patent Office (EPO) does not serve the interests of Europe
European Patent Office (EPO) Has Serious Safety Issues, This New Report Highlights Some of Them
9-page document that was released to staff a couple of days ago
IRC Proceedings: Saturday, April 20, 2024
IRC logs for Saturday, April 20, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
Microsoft-Run FUD Machine Wants Nobody to Pay Attention to Microsoft Getting Cracked All the Time
Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt (FUD) is the business model of "modern" media
Torvalds Fed Up With "AI" Passing Fad, Calls It "Autocorrect on Steroids."
and Microsoft pretends that it is speaking for Linux
Gemini Links 21/04/2024: Minecraft Ruined
Links for the day