| *balzac (n=balzac@user-387hrgt.cable.mindspring.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 08 23:57 |
| balzac | hello | Jun 08 23:58 |
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| balzac | I just read about Mark Shuttleworth licensing proprietary software from Microsoft. | Jun 08 23:58 |
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| balzac | That really makes it clear that Mark Shuttleworth is not serious and I should be looking for another distro. | Jun 08 23:58 |
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| moparx | hey | Jun 08 23:59 |
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| balzac | hi moparx | Jun 08 23:59 |
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| balzac | Gnewsense or Debian - that's what I'm thinking about now... | Jun 09 00:00 |
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| moparx | let the deciding begin :) | Jun 09 00:01 |
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| balzac | well, I'm mulling it over. I really like aptitude. | Jun 09 00:02 |
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| balzac | I don't like the idea of being downstream of some project I don't really have full confidence in. | Jun 09 00:02 |
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| balzac | I don't yet know the implications of Ubuntu being downstream of debian or of Gnewsense being downstream of Ubuntu. | Jun 09 00:03 |
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| balzac | I want to get rid of any proprietary blobs | Jun 09 00:04 |
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| balzac | I've compared the proprietary blobs in the Linux Kernel to a case of the measles. | Jun 09 00:04 |
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| balzac | what are you using, moparx? | Jun 09 00:04 |
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| moparx | I run arch linux & slackware right now. going to put together a debian machine soon | Jun 09 00:05 |
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| balzac | I'm not happy when someone serves up proprietary crap in my distro's repository. | Jun 09 00:07 |
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| balzac | It reminds me of when I order turkey bacon or turkey sausage and then I get paranoid I'm getting real bacon or real sausage. | Jun 09 00:08 |
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| balzac | I don't like being paranoid about my restaurants, nor about my linux distro. | Jun 09 00:08 |
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| moparx | *nod* | Jun 09 00:08 |
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| balzac | I wonder if debian keeps their repositories clean. | Jun 09 00:09 |
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| balzac | I think RMS is using Gnewsense, which is a cleaned-up, derivative of ubuntu. | Jun 09 00:10 |
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| moparx | he is if I recall correctly | Jun 09 00:10 |
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| balzac | but I don't like being downstream of some distro I don't have full confidence. | Jun 09 00:10 |
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| moparx | http://www.gnu.org/link... | Jun 09 00:11 |
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| balzac | It's like eating vegetables chopped on the same cutting board which had pork on it a minute ago and you get pork juices on your veggies. | Jun 09 00:11 |
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| balzac | thanks | Jun 09 00:12 |
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| moparx | no problem :) | Jun 09 00:12 |
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| balzac | I guess he was favoring Utotu before. | Jun 09 00:12 |
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| moparx | It is a shame that the list on that page is so small | Jun 09 00:16 |
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| balzac | I'm still getting data off of my last windows box so I can delete it. | Jun 09 00:16 |
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| balzac | I've been inspired by RMS to get rid of all non-free software and not to have contact with it except for during an emergency. | Jun 09 00:17 |
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| balzac | I'm going to get an open moko phone too, when new ones are available. | Jun 09 00:17 |
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| balzac | Yeah, it's a shame the FSF budget is so low as well. | Jun 09 00:17 |
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| moparx | I'd love to have an open moko myself | Jun 09 00:18 |
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| balzac | It's not easy for me as a web developer. | Jun 09 00:18 |
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| balzac | I'm checking my websites with a remote desktop session to a windows machine. I'm not direction "using" windows or IE. | Jun 09 00:18 |
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| balzac | But I have to get my style sheets working right. | Jun 09 00:18 |
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| moparx | *nod* | Jun 09 00:19 |
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| balzac | Technically, I'm downloading images of a windows session and sending clicks back. | Jun 09 00:19 |
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| balzac | the RDC connection is kind of like a condom which keeps me from direct contact with windows. | Jun 09 00:19 |
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| balzac | But I'd really like to not have to do that. | Jun 09 00:20 |
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| balzac | I can ask my friends to do what must be done with proprietary software, but it seems kind of hypocritical. | Jun 09 00:20 |
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| balzac | I have friends who develop flash and I'm glad we can do contracts which require it but I won't touch flash anymore. | Jun 09 00:21 |
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| balzac | I gave up photoshop, flash, dreamweaver, and all proprietary games. No more Halo on the Xbox. | Jun 09 00:21 |
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| balzac | It's going to feel damned good to be rid of the last proprietary software in my life. | Jun 09 00:23 |
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| moparx | you should play tremulous. it is a great open source multiplayer game :) | Jun 09 00:23 |
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| balzac | it's built in blender? | Jun 09 00:24 |
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| moparx | nah | Jun 09 00:24 |
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| balzac | I'll try it out. I probably need a faster computer. I can barely play alien arena. | Jun 09 00:25 |
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| moparx | ah | Jun 09 00:25 |
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| *[H]omer has quit ("Leaving") | Jun 09 00:48 |
| *moparx yawns | Jun 09 00:56 |
| *tessier drops a prawn down moparx's gaping maw | Jun 09 00:57 |
| moparx | :( | Jun 09 00:57 |
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| tessier | What, you don't like prawns? | Jun 09 00:57 |
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| moparx | prawns as in the crustacean? | Jun 09 00:58 |
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| tessier | yeas | Jun 09 00:58 |
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| tessier | yes | Jun 09 00:58 |
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| moparx | to be honest I don't believe i've ever had them | Jun 09 00:59 |
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| moparx | *hears crickets chirping* :p | Jun 09 01:01 |
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| moparx | ;_; | Jun 09 01:04 |
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| moparx | I do like shrimp though (they are close enough :p) | Jun 09 01:12 |
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| tessier | Yes, they are quite similar | Jun 09 01:27 |
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| *dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 09 01:29 |
| dsmith_ | If just Acer, HP , Lenovo and Dell stop buying/selling windows today, microsoft will be bankruptcy tomorrow, and i mean literally. | Jun 09 01:30 |
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| dsmith_ | UNIT OEMs, GO TO REVOLUTION, ITS ABOUT TIME. | Jun 09 01:30 |
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| tessier | They have billions in the bank don't they? How would they go bankrupt tomorrow? | Jun 09 01:35 |
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| tessier | At worst they would stop funding their money losing projects | Jun 09 01:36 |
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| tessier | But there would still be more than enough people buying Windows to keep MS in business | Jun 09 01:36 |
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| tessier | There are many small companies with far less revenue that remain afloat | Jun 09 01:36 |
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| dsmith_ | I was reposting something I read | Jun 09 01:37 |
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| dsmith_ | its a matter of choice, I want to pick my own OS | Jun 09 01:38 |
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| Eruaran | Microsoft have literally billions in the bank, but that doesn't mean their share price wouldn't head south very quickly if they faced a significant backlash from OEM's. | Jun 09 01:44 |
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| dsmith_ | hmmmmmmmmmm | Jun 09 01:44 |
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| *ghost_of_U_and_I (i=ghost@gateway/tor/x-fa5179d3c04fd1a5) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 09 01:48 |
| ghost_of_U_and_I | [OBSCENITIES OMITTED] | Jun 09 01:48 |
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| Eruaran | see :) | Jun 09 01:53 |
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| dsmith_ | lol | Jun 09 01:56 |
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| dsmith_ | roy, dont post that | Jun 09 01:57 |
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| dsmith_ | :P | Jun 09 01:57 |
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| *ZiggyFish (n=brendan@123-243-163-103.static.tpgi.com.au) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 09 02:30 |
| dsmith_ | hi ziggy | Jun 09 02:31 |
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| ZiggyFish | good morning (it is still morning (11:38:05)) | Jun 09 02:31 |
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| dsmith_ | its 9:38 pm hee | Jun 09 02:31 |
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| dsmith_ | *here | Jun 09 02:31 |
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| moparx | hey ZiggyFish | Jun 09 02:33 |
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| ZiggyFish | hey | Jun 09 02:34 |
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| ZiggyFish | dsmith_: you must of been on the node the netsplit ocuured on | Jun 09 04:17 |
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| dsmith_ | *shrug* | Jun 09 04:18 |
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| Eruaran | The new krunner for kde 4.1 is way cool | Jun 09 04:26 |
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| Eruaran | You can use it to find and launch programs, files, you can Google search with it, its predictive so it tries to guess what it is youre looking for as youre typing, and... you can teach it to do things it has never done before | Jun 09 04:29 |
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| moparx | im guessing it is a quicksilver clone from the sound of it | Jun 09 04:41 |
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| moparx | that type of app is pretty cool | Jun 09 04:43 |
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| schestowitz | OK, I'm back (been away for like 12 hours). dsmith, don't worry, I'll omit the foul-mouthed intrusion. It appears to always be the same person (via Tor). | Jun 09 07:35 |
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| Eruaran | hello schestowitz | Jun 09 07:38 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft appears to be EEEing SourceForge: http://port25.technet.com/... | Jun 09 07:58 |
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| Eruaran | *reads* | Jun 09 08:00 |
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| schestowitz | Just done quick post about it: Microsoft Tries to Gradually Embrace & Extend SourceForge ( http://boycottnovell.com/20... ) | Jun 09 08:26 |
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| Eruaran | Its like letting Monty Burns do recycling... | Jun 09 08:29 |
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| Eruaran | (if you've seen that episode) | Jun 09 08:32 |
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| schestowitz | I probably did many years ago. I've watched hundreds of episodes since I was 10, but this one no longer rings a bell. | Jun 09 08:36 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft is /already/ giving open source a bad name. It's part of the reason more people step back to "Free software" as the terminology of choice. | Jun 09 08:37 |
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| Eruaran | Apparrently reformed and committed to a non-evil recycling enterprise, it turns out that Mr Burns has not been reformed at all, and that he's evil even when he thinks he's doing good... He invents the omni-net, a net made of beer can plastic holders that wipes the ocean floors clean, doing massive environmental damage and uses what he scoops up to create Slurry, an all purpose... slurry... | Jun 09 08:41 |
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| schestowitz | Oh, I think I remember that. Microsoft too 'helps' open source: 1) it makes brochures; 2) it reinforced the use of the words/terms "commercial", "people-ready", and "enterprise" in the context of open source; 3) It makes available software licences that are not as 'restrictive' as the GPL; 4) It helps open source work 'better' with Vista; 5) It makes open source 'interoperable' with OOXML-based software (think Blender 3D letter) and compatib | Jun 09 08:46 |
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| schestowitz | le with Windows DRM. | Jun 09 08:46 |
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| tessier | Yes, I am more and more convinced that Free Software is the way to go. | Jun 09 09:13 |
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| tessier | But it is just so tedious always having to say Free (as in freedom ) Software and watching the cynics roll their eyes. | Jun 09 09:13 |
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| schestowitz | Open source and FS used to be the same, but they diverged when OSI 'opened up' too much (CPAL, msX). Everyone wants a piece of the action (hype), but it becomes a party p00per. | Jun 09 09:14 |
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| schestowitz | "Libre software"? | Jun 09 09:15 |
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| tessier | Even weirder. You then have to explain latin or spanish or something. | Jun 09 09:15 |
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| tessier | RMS has been fighting/explaining this for years. There's just no good solution. :( | Jun 09 09:16 |
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| tessier | Damn our horrible english language. | Jun 09 09:16 |
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| schestowitz | Had it not been for this ambiguity, maybe open source would not have been born and FS accepted more quickly. | Jun 09 09:18 |
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| schestowitz | Then again, the term FS is akin to the 'playful cleverness' of terms like Gnu and Copyleft. | Jun 09 09:19 |
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| Eruaran | I tend to agree with RMS and Eben Moglen when it comes to FS v Open Source | Jun 09 09:39 |
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| Eruaran | I find it ironic that today the KDE team uses the term Free Software on their main site (after the Qt issues years ago), linking to the FSF and taking a firm position on Free Software while GNOME which oringinally came into being because people felt that KDE was not genuinely free, they now fiddle about with Mono and Silverlight... | Jun 09 09:42 |
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| schestowitz | More people agree with them now that open source is derailed somewhat. Personally, rather than saying "Free software" to people who don't know it I just say "GPL", which is a widely used (most used) licence that many people are aware of. | Jun 09 09:42 |
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| Eruaran | yes | Jun 09 09:43 |
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| benJIman | People who think that free software must refer to price obviously havn't read the first 17 definitions of free http://www.answers.com/free&r=67 | Jun 09 09:43 |
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| schestowitz | How about "Free /User/ Software"? | Jun 09 09:44 |
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| PetoKraus | FUSS? | Jun 09 09:45 |
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| Eruaran | I think that GPL keeps things concise and clear | Jun 09 09:45 |
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| schestowitz | No muss, no fuss. | Jun 09 09:45 |
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| benJIman | Free software is not really ambigous. People don't think that when they read "Eggs from free hens" for example. | Jun 09 09:45 |
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| Eruaran | free range software ? | Jun 09 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | But Microsoft /tries/ to confuse. | Jun 09 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | Watch what Bill Gates did a month ago. He explicitly said to the audience that Microsoft does free software (dumpware) and then said that there it this 'GPL thingue', which "we don't agree with". | Jun 09 09:46 |
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| schestowitz | Mark Shuttleworth has just posted a comment in Boycott Novell: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/... | Jun 09 09:49 |
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| Eruaran | I'm glad Mark reads boycottnovell | Jun 09 09:55 |
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| PetoKraus | yes. | Jun 09 09:55 |
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| schestowitz | It was also in the Ubuntu mailing lists. It turns out that way anyway. I gave him a hard time with Gobuntu before. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/o... | Jun 09 09:57 |
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| schestowitz | He has always been a pragmatist due to commercial pressures. | Jun 09 09:57 |
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| PetoKraus | lol | Jun 09 10:14 |
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| PetoKraus | Mono in Gobuntu, which should be Free distribution? | Jun 09 10:14 |
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| PetoKraus | haha | Jun 09 10:16 |
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| PetoKraus | this is black humouru | Jun 09 10:16 |
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| PetoKraus | FFx in Free distro... :D | Jun 09 10:16 |
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| schestowitz | Yes. | Jun 09 10:17 |
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| PetoKraus | smack him in face, please | Jun 09 10:18 |
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| PetoKraus | I mean, I use proprietary ATI driver, and proprietary intel microcode, and I don't even wanna know about codecs | Jun 09 10:19 |
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| PetoKraus | but saying that something is free, when it ISN'T.... that's stupid. | Jun 09 10:19 |
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| schestowitz | You mean Gobuntu? | Jun 09 10:25 |
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| schestowitz | The main problem at the time was that's it's an unfair advantage. Take gNewSense for example. They created a Ubuntu derivative (fair enough, like Debian->Ubuntu), but didn't take 'shortcuts of convenience'. The GNU operating system suffered from this in its early days when GNU/Linux operating system tried to boast added value with non-Free s/w. | Jun 09 10:27 |
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| PetoKraus | it's not only unfair | Jun 09 10:29 |
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| PetoKraus | it's a lie | Jun 09 10:29 |
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| schestowitz | Among all my articles I think this was the only one that criticised a GNU/Linux distribution (and unsurprisingly hurt my relationship with Mark). He later took the advice and just decided to support gNewSense, not duplicate their effort. | Jun 09 10:33 |
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| PetoKraus | :) | Jun 09 10:33 |
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| schestowitz | Be ready for Canonical to become more like Mandriva, i.e. Fleundo-'enhanced' Ubuntu up for sale. Sure, it's speculative at this stage, by the first step has already been taken. | Jun 09 11:17 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/06/07/... Mark S: "I think that was added today. Our marketing team should not have put an mp4 up as the default, and when they saw this commentary they immediately apologized to the distro team for creating the wrong impression. I assume they have since published the ogg." | Jun 09 17:31 |
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| *yuhong (n=chatzill@pool-71-188-245-175.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 09 17:56 |
| schestowitz | Welcome, yuhong | Jun 09 17:58 |
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| *Sam1338 (n=sam@host86-129-251-100.range86-129.btcentralplus.com) has joined #boycottnovell | Jun 09 18:02 |
| Sam1338 | Down with capatalism! | Jun 09 18:02 |
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| schestowitz | Howdy. | Jun 09 18:03 |
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| Sam1338 | hi | Jun 09 18:10 |
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| Sam1338 | Because they steal from the poor and give to the rich? | Jun 09 18:11 |
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| Sam1338 | Sure they don't actually steal but they take money from people who don't need to give them money and don't actually want to give them money even though they think they do. | Jun 09 18:12 |
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| schestowitz | Novel, you mean? | Jun 09 18:13 |
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| schestowitz | Novell? | Jun 09 18:13 |
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| Sam1338 | Do they do that? | Jun 09 18:14 |
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| schestowitz | The Novell issue is different. The issue we explore here is how Free software gets pushed towards becoming proprietary. | Jun 09 18:15 |
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| Sam1338 | Exactly. | Jun 09 18:16 |
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| Sam1338 | That's why I wasn't referring to Novell. | Jun 09 18:16 |
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| schestowitz | I know you're a Phoronix reader (probably hardware enthusiast), so this can affect you too. | Jun 09 18:16 |
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| Sam1338 | I'm not a hardware enthusiast. I bought my pc 3 years ago from pcworld | Jun 09 18:16 |
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| schestowitz | While drivers become open (NDAs not being a big issue), software patents intrude. | Jun 09 18:16 |
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| schestowitz | I see you're posting via BT. | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| Sam1338 | I only use phoronix to compare ati and nvidia gpus. | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| schestowitz | Another issue is software patents being pushed towards Europe. | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| Sam1338 | What's wrong with BT? | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| schestowitz | The UK is already partly affected, due to recent developments.\ | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| schestowitz | Nothing wrong with BT. | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| Sam1338 | Why mention BT then? | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| zoobab | BT is implementing DPI | Jun 09 18:17 |
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| schestowitz | Canonical, which is UK-based, has just paid for proprietary codecs it puts in Remix. | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| zoobab | right now | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| zoobab | I think | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| Sam1338 | zoobab: What's DPI? | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| zoobab | Deep Packet Inspection | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| Sam1338 | zoobab: I don't like my ISP, they really suck, we're changing imminently. | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| schestowitz | I mentioned BT because you said PC world and I tried to figure out what patents laws apply where you live. | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| schestowitz | I too am in the UK. | Jun 09 18:18 |
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| Sam1338 | I want to live in a world where all software is open source. | Jun 09 18:19 |
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| schestowitz | That used to be the case. | Jun 09 18:19 |
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| schestowitz | 1970s. Roughly. | Jun 09 18:19 |
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| Sam1338 | I have limited the amount of proprietory software I use to a minimum. At the moment I only use proprietory software for games. | Jun 09 18:20 |
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| zoobab | https://nodpi.org/?p=6 | Jun 09 18:20 |
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| Sam1338 | Oh and flash but will install gnash soon. | Jun 09 18:20 |
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| Sam1338 | BT Should be boycotted. | Jun 09 18:21 |
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| Sam1338 | Damn evil companies >< | Jun 09 18:21 |
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| schestowitz | Well, as long as one can identify the issues. | Jun 09 18:21 |
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| Sam1338 | They limit my legal Bittorrent download speeds to <20kbps during the day. | Jun 09 18:22 |
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| schestowitz | I try to dodge Flash where it's possible. | Jun 09 18:22 |
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| schestowitz | Huh?! They throttle by protocol? Isn't that illegal? | Jun 09 18:22 |
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| Sam1338 | I guess not. | Jun 09 18:22 |
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| Sam1338 | http://www.azureuswiki.com/in... judging by this, BT is the worst ISP EVER | Jun 09 18:23 |
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| Sam1338 | "throttles non-HTTP traffic" | Jun 09 18:23 |
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| Sam1338 | limits bandwidth during certain times of the day: yes | Jun 09 18:23 |
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| Sam1338 | limits BitTorrent bandwidth: yes | Jun 09 18:23 |
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| Sam1338 | I can't get around the poor speeds. | Jun 09 18:24 |
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| schestowitz | That's terrible. I'm glad that I still get campus-level iInternet | Jun 09 18:24 |
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| schestowitz | 100 MBS | Jun 09 18:24 |
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| Sam1338 | I can only download large linux isos at night :( | Jun 09 18:24 |
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| Sam1338 | Even then it is quite slow. | Jun 09 18:24 |
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| Sam1338 | I'm moving to Spain very soon. | Jun 09 18:25 |
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| Sam1338 | To Madrid. | Jun 09 18:25 |
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| Sam1338 | I bet ISPs are less evil over there. | Jun 09 18:25 |
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| schestowitz | The US gets worse too. Comcast for starters. | Jun 09 18:25 |
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| schestowitz | But anyway, a risk to Linux ISOs is another thing worth exploring because it related to IPR (copyrights), which is exploited to stifle competition (again) | Jun 09 18:26 |
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| Sam1338 | zomfg | Jun 09 18:27 |
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| Sam1338 | Yeah so I am a Phoronix reader as it has some quite good articles there, but I am by no means a hardware enthusiast with a super powerful water cooling machine or whatever. I've also lived in the UK all my life but will probably move to Spain with my mother and her boyfriend quite soon. | Jun 09 18:29 |
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| schestowitz | That would need to get you interested in cooling machines. | Jun 09 18:29 |
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| Sam1338 | I'm going to upgrade my graphics card later on this year so I've been reading Phoronix articles on the open source ati progress. | Jun 09 18:29 |
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| Sam1338 | Why, because it's hot in Spain? | Jun 09 18:30 |
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| schestowitz | The benchmarks on the site have always been unique.. Someone needed to do it. It has partly encouraged GPU makers to seriously consider Linux as well. | Jun 09 18:30 |
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| schestowitz | Yes. I hardly make use of my ATI card. It's just used for dual-heading (4000 pixels in width) | Jun 09 18:31 |
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| Sam1338 | I threw away my ati card and got an nvidia card last year because the performance was TERRIBLE. | Jun 09 18:31 |
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| Sam1338 | I'm thinking of making the switch back and making my computer 100% open source some time. | Jun 09 18:32 |
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| schestowitz | NVIDIA might go open source soon. Micheal told me. | Jun 09 18:32 |
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| Sam1338 | With the exception of a few games :) | Jun 09 18:32 |
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| Sam1338 | I wish. | Jun 09 18:33 |
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| Sam1338 | Who's Michael? | Jun 09 18:33 |
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| schestowitz | I hardly play games. I was addicted to some and learned my lessons. :-) | Jun 09 18:33 |
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| schestowitz | The Phoronix chap. | Jun 09 18:33 |
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| Sam1338 | Ati already has fully functional open source drivers for a lot of their graphics cards, Nvidia has a lot of catching up to do. | Jun 09 18:33 |
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| Sam1338 | I get addicted to games. | Jun 09 18:34 |
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| Sam1338 | Especially the ones where you 'lvl up'. | Jun 09 18:34 |
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| schestowitz | Intel wants to kill both (AMD and NVIDIA), but that's another story. | Jun 09 18:34 |
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| Sam1338 | ut2k4-rpg is what I'm addicted to atm | Jun 09 18:34 |
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| schestowitz | Free software or proprietary? | Jun 09 18:34 |
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| Sam1338 | Intel's graphics are so slow though. | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| schestowitz | I can't remember because of UT3 | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| Sam1338 | Proprietary :( | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| schestowitz | I think that's... oh, yeah... and the Microsoft rumours came. | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| Sam1338 | UT3 doesn't run on Linux :( I got it working in Wine but not very well, unplayable really. | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| schestowitz | That too is something we covered in BoycottNovell. Assuming there's substance to this, it's part of the pattern. | Jun 09 18:35 |
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| *Sam1338 plans to remove the words "contrib non-free" from his /etc/apt/sources.list around the time of Lenny's finished release. | Jun 09 18:40 |
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| [H]omer | Hi | Jun 09 21:27 |
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| moparx | hey | Jun 09 21:50 |
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| dsmith_ | ok roy, I asked my question regardinf lenovo and freedos being withdrawn, he is going to find out for me | Jun 09 23:33 |
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