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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 16th, 2008

tessierObviously the Linux OS is faster than XP, particularly at boot-up and shutdown, but the simplicity of it all is also very appealing and with the extra storage you get from sticking with Linux, this is definitely the version we'd recommend - you can always install XP yourself after all.Jun 16 00:16
tessier 16 00:18
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-dmwaters-{global notice} Good day all, I need to do some quick rerouting, this should not take long.Jun 16 03:29
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ZiggyFishgood afternoonJun 16 04:55
schestowitzHey, <ZiggyFish>Jun 16 05:49
ZiggyFishschestowitz: hello. hows are youJun 16 05:49
schestowitzBetter than Microsoft and Novell. :-)Jun 16 05:50
ZiggyFishlolJun 16 05:51
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schestowitzMiguel and the Boys bring more Mono to OOo... ... with this bridge, even some OOo tasks could become dependent on Novell's Mono.Jun 16 06:28
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tessierWe need a SCO DeathwatchJun 16 07:28
tessierAnd have a sort of betting pool on when SCO will officially cease operationsJun 16 07:29
tessierI don't see them possibly being bought as they have too many liabilities and no assetsJun 16 07:29
schestowitzHmmm...Jun 16 07:29
schestowitzI saw a comment from PJ yesterday about SCO spending all that's left after a frivolous lawsuit. The SCO stories have become dull. It's just hotel bills and such stuff.Jun 16 07:30
tessierMaybe one for MS also but it would have to relate to their first money losing year or something similar. They won't cease operations for a very long time.Jun 16 07:30
tessierYeahJun 16 07:30
tessierWhat's the next major even in the SCO trial?Jun 16 07:30
tessierThe judge is currently deliberating something isn't he?Jun 16 07:30
schestowitzWell...Jun 16 07:30
tessierI forget which SCO case that wasJun 16 07:31
schestowitzNovell/SCO is due to be announced.Jun 16 07:31
ZiggyFishit's a shame to see SCO dieJun 16 07:31
tessierI know there are several things ongoing and several things waiting as dependencies on SCO/NovellJun 16 07:31
schestowitzThere was another documented cr*pped out last week, unexpectedly.Jun 16 07:31
tessierZiggyFish: meh...I'm looking forward to being out of SCO's misery.Jun 16 07:31
tessierIt's been going on for years. I can't believe I have been following it this long.Jun 16 07:31
schestowitzI think that looking at SCO at this stage is almost a waste of time, but...Jun 16 07:31
schestowitz(Bear in mind PJ wants it to linger on and waits for {the fat lady to sing}^TM)Jun 16 07:32
schestowitzThere's the issue of Novell inheriting Linux, which could in turn be used by Microsoft. Maybe.Jun 16 07:32
ZiggyFishLinux cannot be inheritedJun 16 07:33
schestowitzUnless Microsoft makes use of imaginary property.Jun 16 07:33
ZiggyFisheven then. all distributions need to do is remove that software (Linux is owned by the community)Jun 16 07:34
schestowitz<tessier>, Groklaw has static pages for SCO timeline/s. <ZiggyFish>, Microsoft plays law now. Marketing and law topped by vicious business practices. It's the only thing it understands.Jun 16 07:35
ZiggyFishschestowitz: then the EU plays law as well ;)Jun 16 07:36
ZiggyFish 16 07:37
tessierThe SCO bankruptcy timeline shows a lot of applications for compensation as pendingJun 16 07:38
tessierDoes that mean those people haven't been paid yet? Doesn't that mean Novell could still get their money?Jun 16 07:38
schestowitzWell, play and enforce are not the same thing.  Government official: "The government is not trying to destroy Microsoft, it’s simply seeking to compel Microsoft to obey the law. It’s quite revealing that Mr. Gates equates the two."Jun 16 07:38
tessierOr will those people have to be paid before Novell somehow?Jun 16 07:39
schestowitzWhose money might Novell get? SCO is broke and it spends all that's left.Jun 16 07:39
tessierIt isn't broke yet as they still have a building to operate out of and lawyers doing their biddingJun 16 07:40
tessierWhen all that stops I will believe that they are broke.Jun 16 07:40
ZiggyFishNovell wont's get any money (AFAIK there is no novel products in SCO products)Jun 16 07:40
tessierThey are spending the license money they owe NovellJun 16 07:40
tessierZiggyFish: I thought when it was ruled that Novell has SYSV not SCO the SCO Source license money came into dispute?Jun 16 07:41
schestowitzBy the way, <ZiggyFish>,  Charles Cooper is a bit of a troll sometimes. He adds drama.Jun 16 07:41
ZiggyFishtessier: haven't been following the SCO, storyJun 16 07:41
schestowitz<tessier>, I am not too sure. I don't know the details too well.Jun 16 07:42
ZiggyFishschestowitz: yeah, but his points are still validJun 16 07:42
schestowitzIt depends a lot of perspective. Law too is just man-made 'rules'. Usually, those who are wealthy write those rules.Jun 16 07:44
schestowitzI judge his writings based on previous things he wrote about MS-EU.Jun 16 07:44
ZiggyFishtrueJun 16 07:45
schestowitzHe is one of the seniors there and CNET is close to Microsoft. Even closer now. Paul Allen ownership, Microsoft deal, then Yahoo.Jun 16 07:47
ZiggyFishso who at CNET isn't close to MicrosoftJun 16 07:48
schestowitzGood question., Even Asay isn't distant from them.Jun 16 07:50
schestowitzMaybe a few blogger might sometimes criticise Microsoft Tim Tiemann is there, but he hardly ever blogs.Jun 16 07:51
ZiggyFishmy point is, if there is no one on our side take their comments and turn it into a comment that benefits usJun 16 08:00
schestowitzWho is "us"?>Jun 16 08:02
ZiggyFishthe Linux communityJun 16 08:02
schestowitz hate writing long articles. How about you? In fact, I think that going forward I'll just blog more. PJ stopped writing articles as well.Jun 16 08:03
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mark_antony_kenthiJun 16 08:40
schestowitzHey, <mark_antony_kent> Jun 16 08:42
mark_antony_kentgr33tz :-) (okay, no more 1337 h4x0r speak hehe)Jun 16 08:43
schestowitzWell, we use shorthands though. I've just posted something new about Mono. Novell wants it everywhere on the desktop.Jun 16 08:43
mark_antony_kentThey're very much persuing a proprietary vendor model.  One has to consider that Novell might be a Microsoft experiment as a possible future for MS - should Novell be successful, then MS will buy them and a migration to SuSE with Patents will ensue.Jun 16 08:45
schestowitzThe press will soon be filled with a lot of Novell PR and OpenSUSE announcements. There's probably need for education about the problems associated with SUSE due to Novell's swpatents deal.Jun 16 08:45
schestowitzYes, that too. But Microsoft will mix both, just as it did with FAST (corruption investigation over there ATM). It realises that Windows' future is uncertain and some will never embrace it.Jun 16 08:47
schestowitzSee . Similar situation with Nokia (Symbian vs Maemo+Qt+GTK)Jun 16 08:47
mark_antony_kentAs per my message to Mitch (don't know if  you saw it), the destkop world is dead - it's a legacy technology, the next generation stuff is all about appliances and mobility, Microsoft haven't really covered either.  I'll check your link.Jun 16 08:48
mark_antony_kentAh, yes - I think Ari made a mistake there, to be honest.  I think that he's genuinely trying to explore ways to make Nokia more open, just as I am at my $employer, but some posts are better left unposted!Jun 16 08:50
schestowitzLots of promises from the Windows Mobile people recently (they didn't even hire a 'voice', e.g. analyst). They are still nowhere, but they seem to have an insider in Vodafone now.Jun 16 08:51
schestowitzBear in mind that Microsoft's head of the mobile unit quit the company some months ago. He was there for almost 10 years, IIRC, so it's a major blow that's very telling.Jun 16 08:51
mark_antony_kentVoda are a very large company, so it will always be possible to find someone who'll stake their next bonus on a linkage with a particular compony.  MS still have a lot of cash, and middle-managers are desperately constrained because of the way organisations form, so outside partnerships often look like a better way of getting a bonus "this" year.Jun 16 08:52
schestowitzIt wasn't a post. He spoke about it publicly. Then again, he was demonised by a journalist and expresses his disappointment in this 'damage control' blog post.Jun 16 08:53
schestowitzAs I understand it (I'm not sure anymore because of a recent report), Microsoft's former head of the Mobile Division/Unit will be running Vodafone, so you probably can foresee the impact.Jun 16 08:54
mark_antony_kentI've spoken at the same events as Ari in the past, and have found him to be an honourable character.  I think the idea he's trying to get across is that businesses are struggling to migrate from their current business models onto new ones based around open-source.  I still think he made a grave error presenting this, though.Jun 16 08:54
mark_antony_kentAhhh - that's interesting.  This is a direct attack on Android, I think.  I doubt it will be effective, though.  The google bus is too big to stop.Jun 16 08:55
schestowitzYes.Jun 16 08:55
schestowitzI believe that Trolltech was about stealing parts of the rivals' stack.Jun 16 08:55
schestowitzThink of Sun's grab of an ingredient of LAMP (MySQL).Jun 16 08:55
mark_antony_kentI think of the present situation as a graph with two lines, one increasing, and one decreasing over time.  As the open-source "increasing" line has become visible to the decreasing proprietary line, then the proprietary companies need to take action in order to survive.  As the lines approach each other, due to cross soon, if not already, then it seems inevitable that major open-source projects will be boughtJun 16 08:58
schestowitzWell, Qt was lunch money for a company as large as Nokia. It remains ton be seen what hey will do with it.Jun 16 09:00
schestowitz(or *to* it)Jun 16 09:00
mark_antony_kentI suspect that they'll leave it alone for now.  It's not mainstream to Nokia, who are predominantly a hardware vendor.Jun 16 09:01
schestowitzYes, but to sell their hardware they need to ensure other offers (e.g. HTC+OHA) don't eat their dessert.Jun 16 09:02
schestowitzApple and Sun too have some great hardware, but it's expensive and some people go for the lower-end PCs and servers.Jun 16 09:03
mark_antony_kentTrue, but Nokia's hardware is mainly mass-market consumer, whereas Apple and Sun are both niche players - hmm, not entirely true, Apple have managed to go mainstream with the iPod, but nothing else yet.  So far...Jun 16 09:05
schestowitzThen there's the software. Sun offers a place for Windows and Linux as well while Apple does its flings with Microsoft at times (maybe due to practical needs). Nokia may be similar in the sense that its bread and butter (Symbian) isn't enough for everything. Can Symbian do tablets?Jun 16 09:08
mark_antony_kentSymbian started out on Psion machines - I've still got a Psion5mx which runs a late version of EPOC which is the previous name for Symbian.  Symbian remains single-user and proprietary, though.Jun 16 09:12
schestowitzThat's no way to develop software. It's too expensive. One has to wonder what keeps it floating other than large investments and universality. Windows Mobile has its share of pains too (growing pains).Jun 16 09:14
schestowitzTwice in the past month or so Nokia praised mobile Linux, but it was probably thinking about its tablets.Jun 16 09:15
mark_antony_kentPersonally, I think that Symbian's days are numbered - there's no long-term value to developing your own OS.Jun 16 09:15
schestowitzHow much (%-wise) do they have in Symbian. Didn't Nokia have like 60% in it? Maybe more? As Symbian loses market share (assuming that happens), its funding will shrivel.Jun 16 09:19
mark_antony_kentI think that Nokia were the major holder.  Psion and Ericsson were the other two, but Psion pulled out.Jun 16 09:20
mark_antony_kentfyi, According to Google, MS have paid 18 dividends to shareholders since 2002, from 9c to 11c/share.Jun 16 09:21
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mark_antony_kentMornin' [H]omerJun 16 09:23
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mark_antony_kentSome names just don't stick :-)Jun 16 09:23
schestowitzIs Psion still in existence?Jun 16 09:23
mark_antony_kent 16 09:24
schestowitzI'm not sure it's him. Actually,  I'll check.Jun 16 09:24
mark_antony_kentah, pse do...Jun 16 09:24
schestowitzYes, it's him.Jun 16 09:24
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schestowitzPalm too is moving to Linux, hopefully away from Microsoft slavery.Jun 16 09:25
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schestowitzBut Palm worked for years on its own PalmOS-compatible stack and now there's LiMo and OHA around. Poor Palm... I still have their products.Jun 16 09:26
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[H]omerYes, it's meJun 16 09:29
schestowitzThe FreeNode staff talked about disruption cause by a (script) "kiddie". I wondered if that's related.Jun 16 09:32
[H]omerlemme check the logs to see what happenedJun 16 09:33
mark_antony_ken1hi [H]omerJun 16 09:34
mark_antony_ken1I appear to have had my T changed to a 1 :-)Jun 16 09:34
schestowitzServer error?Jun 16 09:35
mark_antony_ken1maybe, or some timeout of some kind.  I use the linux kernel profiling to mix 2 adsl lines, so I think sometimes links perhaps get chopped if there's no apparent activity.  I've not found out how to hold them up, and whilst I've put up a few permanent routes to things, some things do drop out.Jun 16 09:36
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schestowitzSee the new comment on the Novell item: 16 09:38
schestowitzIn short, it's likely that, as you said moments ago, Microsoft can experiment with Novell and put its APIs where it needs them.Jun 16 09:38
mark_antony_kentMS understand large corporate politics extremely well.  They know that there's always someone who will be blind to future consequences if their bonus is going to come in.Jun 16 09:39
schestowitzWho might this be specifically?Jun 16 09:40
mark_antony_kentOh, just middle managers generally.  The further up the stack you get, the higher the bonuses get, so the more money there is at stake.  What gets lost in HR analyses of these situations is that the bonus system has created a generation of senior middle managers who are entirely focused on the complete short-term, because that's how they're bonused.  The best thing which could happen to foss would be for the Jun 16 09:43
schestowitzHovsepian received a bonus shortly after signing the deal, IIRC.Jun 16 09:44
schestowitzI can't recall the details exactly (we have this documented), so I won't say anything further... could otherwise be defamatory.Jun 16 09:44
mark_antony_kenthe did, yes.  rather proves my point.  When one's got (not me!) the possibility of a 6-figure bonus, then long-term issues probably look a lot less sexy.Jun 16 09:45
[H]omerHmm, I see what's going on. Lotta netsplits on Freenode. At 1.25AM the netsplit caused me to be booted, and my client failed to ident in time, so I lost the nick until a few minutes ago when I reclaimed it.Jun 16 09:46
schestowitzPeople quickly forget all those small and supposedly uninteresting 'details' after the dust settles. There's also the danger that Novell apologists will outweigh the oppositions. I sometimes see characterisations like "Zealots" and "conspiracy theorists" used to defend what Novell did.Jun 16 09:46
mark_antony_kent[H]omer: does freenode allow the registering of nicks?Jun 16 09:47
[H]omermark_antony_kent, yes indeedJun 16 09:47
[H]omertype "/msg NickServ help"Jun 16 09:48
schestowitzTo go further, complacency is a huge risk. What if it was /assumed/ that swpatents are here to stay (everywhere) and that Mono is too prevalent to be eradicated. The same goes for Moonlight, whose acceptance drives prevalence (Web infection, buh-bye open WWW).Jun 16 09:48
[H]omerI've just woken up. Need coffee :) Back in 5Jun 16 09:49
mark_antony_kentschestowitz: I agree, there're big stakes being played for here.  This is the real test of the GPL, legal cases are not, in the grand scheme of things, that critical - whether mono, silverlight, xps, ooxml and swpatents can be beaten off are the real test.  It's a huge game!Jun 16 09:49
mark_antony_kent[H]omer: okayJun 16 09:49
schestowitzNovell has essentially become a ally, only obliged to both sides in this case but serving also as a bridge.Jun 16 09:52
schestowitzNovell is not alone though and it's a relief that no more Linux vendors surrendered for so long. SJVN told me that he thought everyone would sign a deal within a year.Jun 16 09:53
schestowitzRemember Corel? Same thing. People forgot about Corel though. Microsoft has, in some sense, paid them to stop competing.Jun 16 09:54
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mark_antony_kentThe Corel thing was pretty awful.  It seems surprising that competition authorities in Canada didn't take that one up.  In fact, perhaps they still could?Jun 16 09:55
schestowitzI wasn't watching anything at the time, but I was sent some information by a reader who is desperate to tell her case.Jun 16 09:57
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schestowitzBear in mind that at the time Corel said it would stay committed to Linux. You know, like Novell said that software patents were not the centre of the deal ("we agree to disagree") and that it was all about "interoperability". Then, people forget, and things evolve.Jun 16 09:58
schestowitzHovsepain said this just 2-3 weeks ago: "Our partnership with Microsoft continues to expand."Jun 16 09:58
schestowitzNot "continues", mind you but "continues to _expand_."Jun 16 09:59
mark_antony_ken1The Microsoft and Novell guys put on a show where the Microsoft chap claimed that Novell supported (Microsoft's patent claims), and the Novell chap stood up and claimed that he didn't.  It was very well rehearsed, and I'd be surprised if it had really fooled anyone, but what do people recall about the event?Jun 16 09:59
schestowitzThey have a FAQ up. The OpenSUSE folks seem to love it.Jun 16 10:02
schestowitzIt's up on, so you really know it's objective. *rolls eyes*Jun 16 10:03
mark_antony_ken1heheJun 16 10:04
mark_antony_ken1Ahh b*gger ... blasted filling fallen off back of a wisdom tooth again!Jun 16 10:05
mark_antony_ken1sh1t.Jun 16 10:05
[H]omerYeah, I know what that's like. I spent €£600 on dental work last year. Every filling had to be replacedJun 16 10:07
mark_antony_ken1yuk!  It's not cheap, and it's not pleasant either...Jun 16 10:08
schestowitzI dread the day when I'll have to get fillings. I'm still doing alright.Jun 16 10:08
[H]omerI don't exactly have Hollywood teeth, if you know what I meanJun 16 10:08
mark_antony_ken1I probably wouldn't have had any or many, but for a dentist a few years ago who tried to get me to have fillings I didn't need... it put me off dentists for a few years, which was a big mistake.Jun 16 10:08
[H]omersame hereJun 16 10:09
[H]omerEspecially that last oneJun 16 10:09
schestowitzLook at the bright side. US justice has no teeth at all. Not claws, either.Jun 16 10:09
mark_antony_ken1hehe !Jun 16 10:09
[H]omerI look forward to dentures, then I can forget about dentists for goodJun 16 10:10
[H]omer:)Jun 16 10:10
mark_antony_ken1Ah, well, yeah... in the end...Jun 16 10:10
[H]omerWho's stupid idea was it to place nerve endings *inside* a tooth anyway?Jun 16 10:11
[H]omerGod has a sick sense of humourJun 16 10:11
PetoKraus:)Jun 16 10:11
mark_antony_ken1Nah, it's all Darwin's fault.  If it hadn't been for him, I'd've been intelligently designed!Jun 16 10:11
[H]omerlolJun 16 10:12
[H]omer"It's the engineers fault"Jun 16 10:12
[H]omerIsn't it alwaysJun 16 10:12
mark_antony_ken1Absolutely.  Never trust an engineer.Jun 16 10:12
[H]omerNever pay them either .... (bastards) :)Jun 16 10:13
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mark_antony_ken1Um, I seem to have left again.Jun 16 10:13
[H]omerI hate it when that happensJun 16 10:14
schestowitzNo, that's Mark's ghost.Jun 16 10:14
[H]omerdammit - I've been without my laptop for so long, I've forgotten how to use the smallish keyboardJun 16 10:14
[H]omerTyping is down to about one word a minuteJun 16 10:14
[H]omerDid I mention my laptop fiasco?Jun 16 10:15
[H]omerThat's quite a storyJun 16 10:15
[H]omerBasically ... it was overheating, so I sent it into Acer. This was at the beginning of FebruaryJun 16 10:16
[H]omer4 weeks later they sent in back ... unrepairedJun 16 10:16
[H]omerSo I sent it in againJun 16 10:16
[H]omerThis time they repaired it, but the DVD didn't work and the graphics were messed upJun 16 10:17
[H]omerSo I sent it in again!Jun 16 10:17
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[H]omerThis time the sound didn't work, and the CPU temp sensor was brokenJun 16 10:17
[H]omerSo I sent in in *again*Jun 16 10:17
[H]omerFinally after four attempts, 12 motherboard exchanges, and about 3 months, they managed to repair itJun 16 10:18
[H]omerGah!!!Jun 16 10:18
mark_antony_kent12 exchanges?  that must be some kind of record...Jun 16 10:19
[H]omerNo kiddingJun 16 10:19
[H]omerOh, and I had to *pay*, as it was out of warrantyJun 16 10:19
[H]omer€£350 IIRCJun 16 10:19
[H]omerWorking fine now thoughJun 16 10:20
PetoKrausfingers crossed.Jun 16 10:20
[H]omerAlthough I dropped it last week, and bits came flying off the DVD coverJun 16 10:21
[H]omerHaven't found all the bits yet :(Jun 16 10:21
schestowitzThey pulled an XBox360.Jun 16 10:21
[H]omerThere's an LED cover missing (tiny bit of translucent plastic)Jun 16 10:21
[H]omerYa. Actually I'd *hate* to be an exb0rks customerJun 16 10:22
[H]omerWhat a pain that'd beJun 16 10:22
[H]omerThey have to pay tooJun 16 10:22
[H]omerHow's that class action suite going?Jun 16 10:22
[H]omerThe server's taking a dump. Damn, I should really re-schedule that for another time. Monday morning is not ideal. Things slow as Hell ATMJun 16 10:26
mark_antony_kenton phone...Jun 16 10:26
schestowitzIs there a class action?Jun 16 10:27
[H]omerTwo ... AFAIKJun 16 10:27
schestowitzI know about the Vista class action, but XBox still ongoing?Jun 16 10:27
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schestowitzNot a word about it in the press for many months, if true.Jun 16 10:27
schestowitzMark's ghosting is scary.Jun 16 10:28
[H]omerHere's one: 16 10:28
schestowitzHomer, that's from last year.Jun 16 10:28
[H]omerI'm surprised there isn't one specifically for the overheating issue, especially as the Vole has now admitted fault. These both seem to be about scratched discs.Jun 16 10:29
schestowitzI watch Microsoft closely and I assure you it has been hush-hash. Maybe it's a small lawsuit? I really don't knowJun 16 10:29
[H]omerIsn't it still ongoing though?Jun 16 10:29
schestowitzTo be honest with you, if Microsoft pulls some quiet settlement (bail) outside the court, that wouldn't surprise me. The publicity hit is  very costly. Recall Iowa.Jun 16 10:30
[H]omerI think the Vole's "settlement" was to commit to spending more money on warranty repairsJun 16 10:31
schestowitzIt took them a bloody year just to acknowledge that they had a design problem (the $1,000,000,000 charge). Days beforehand, criminal Robert Bach did some inside-trading. He was never probed or punished because he's rich.Jun 16 10:31
[H]omerhm, typicalJun 16 10:31
schestowitzPerhaps that was the settlement. I don't watch it closely. The XBox (and 360) is a bad toy that cost the company billions. Zune is in the headlines now because of the Canada reach, but it's pathetic really. It became synonymous with ugly and defective.Jun 16 10:32
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schestowitzMicrosoft has not had any good news in ages. I said this before, esp. in recent weeks. It's like nothing's moving there. It was _VERY_ different a year ago  It was more vibrant.Jun 16 10:33
schestowitzI sometimes jokingly think that it's true that they just concentrate on patenting now.Jun 16 10:33
schestowitzPerhaps the developers just write write write instead of develop.Jun 16 10:34
[H]omerI thought MS "developers" were just "Purchase Controllers" (i.e. assimilation agents)Jun 16 10:35
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schestowitzIt is true.Jun 16 10:37
schestowitzHave you seen the following post? Wait.. I'll get the URL..Jun 16 10:37
schestowitz 16 10:38
[H]omerI mean the Vole doesn't actually "write" anything ... except FUD of courseJun 16 10:38
schestowitzDoug sent me the pointer, I did the text. Watch it closely and be amazed (well, *you* wouldn't, some would).Jun 16 10:39
[H]omerYes, WRT "Surface" ... well Microsoft claim "innovation" because they ... wait for it  ... *licensed* the technology from the inventorJun 16 10:42
[H]omerSo "innovate" == "license" nowJun 16 10:43
[H]omerLOLJun 16 10:43
[H]omerThen there's this whole thing of them trying to patent human behaviour. Jeez!Jun 16 10:44
schestowitzI didn't know they 'licensed' anything. What was the idea anyway? I can only guess.Jun 16 10:44
schestowitzAn apparatus for input using motion of hands?Jun 16 10:44
[H]omerMulti-touch screens AFAIKJun 16 10:44
[H]omerI think Engadget had the original story. Lemme find itJun 16 10:44
schestowitzWhat about multi-touch. Neanderthals too could draw with both hands, so we have prior art methinks.Jun 16 10:44
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[H]omerHere's a pointer: 16 10:47
[H]omer"Actually, while Apple I'm sure has many patents on the iPhone, the multitouch stuff has been around for awhile, most prominantly from a guy named Jeff Han and his company Perceptive Pixel."Jun 16 10:48
schestowitzYes. I cite 2 or 3 cases of prior art (with Linux even) in the pointer to an IRC discussion (at ). It's not new.Jun 16 10:50
[H]omer"Multi-touch technology dates back to 1982" : 16 10:52
[H]omerMicrosoft "innovation" my assJun 16 10:53
schestowitzXerox maybe? Glyn Moody said he was shown it back then.Jun 16 10:53
schestowitzSurface/Milan was a Gates pet project, you know? Fantasy world for the Gates Press.Jun 16 10:54
[H]omerHas anyone actually bought one of the Vole's $10,000 coffee tables? LOL!Jun 16 10:54
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schestowitzMicrosoft wanted the project killed, but Gates insisted otherwise.Jun 16 10:54
schestowitzGood question. The only target 'audience' is some hotel lobbies and now Microsoft brags about a deployment in a casino or two... maybe more. It ought to make you happy. They burn cash to buy public perception that Microsoft does exciting things.Jun 16 10:55
[H]omerYeah, Gates is a real "visionary". He's quite the "Nostradamus" too. His predictions are infamously inaccurate.Jun 16 10:56
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[H]omerI have to go do a job. Back in about half an hour.Jun 16 10:57
schestowitzBallmer made a predication last week: newspapers to be gone in 10 years.Jun 16 11:00
PetoKraushahaJun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kentGone where?Jun 16 11:00
PetoKrausDRM!Jun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kentheheJun 16 11:00
PetoKrausself - imploding one-read paper.Jun 16 11:00
schestowitzReaders in Seattle P-I complained about every word coming out of Gates' mouth going in print.Jun 16 11:00
mark_antony_kentI always knew that voice to text was a bad technology.Jun 16 11:01
schestowitzMicrosoft has technology (patent) for cam-cording a TV viewer for ads and restrictions.Jun 16 11:01
schestowitzWait until the newspaper only 'works' for one person.Jun 16 11:01
schestowitzAnd forced you to read the ads.Jun 16 11:01
mark_antony_kentPerhaps they'll be hard-wired to your synapsesJun 16 11:02
schestowitzWell, they have a patent on monitoring people's emotion at work.Jun 16 11:02
mark_antony_kenta dedication monitor, and a loyalty guage :-)Jun 16 11:03
schestowitzHmm... have you seen the patent? I can get you a link summarising it. Microsoft seems to be moving from s/w to sci-fi.Jun 16 11:06
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mark_antony_kentI've not studied it, noJun 16 11:07
schestowitzOther patents from Microsoft are joint to simple API stuff.Jun 16 11:09
schestowitzThey produced extensive documentation that shows you how to 'connect' to Microsoft and what accompanying patent you must pay for (per protocol). That's the type of scam that started with the Novell deal.Jun 16 11:10
schestowitzIncreasingly, as software becomes more of a commodity to many, Microsoft realises that all it has to claim is "innovation" (even if it fakes some). It looks back at its code and tries to convert that into USPTO files that are in reality deserve the wastebasket. That's their business plan assuming that the cost of office and Windows will fall further.Jun 16 11:12
mark_antony_kentThey're trying to squeeze their cash-cow for as long as possible.Jun 16 11:12
schestowitzWindows is already as cheap as $18 (excluding what Microsoft calls craplets). In its SEC filing, Microsoft expresses such concerns. Remember that most of Microsoft's business units lose money, not make any. Without software as a have-no-choice-but, Microsoft lives on its fat supply.Jun 16 11:13
mark_antony_kentThey are in a lot of trouble.  I think that a management change would do them a lot of good.Jun 16 11:15
schestowitzNo. They have nobody suitable. Even Mary Jo Foley said so and explained why.Jun 16 11:19
mark_antony_kentThey have cultural problems internally which would need fixing, but I don't think that promoting from within the ranks will fix their problems either.  Maybe there is no fix...Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzThey are stuck with a hubrid-infected man; nobody else seems to know the diverse business though. Additionally, without an element of a bully, Microsoft can't stay relevant. It's aggression that they thrive in. Recall OOXML FIasco^TM..Jun 16 11:20
mark_antony_kentIf they can get new management now, they might have enough cash to help them over a culture change, away from bullying and towards cooperation and competition.  Maybe.Jun 16 11:21
schestowitzWhat business model? Lockin for software?Jun 16 11:23
mark_antony_kentGood question... they need to move towards a model based around development and support and integration.  The death of the desktop will take them with it otherwise.Jun 16 11:24
schestowitzBear in mind that _by all means_ they recognised this, which is why they explore expansion with consoles, portable music players, etc. They lack focus because they are having a techno-sexual rump, unable to find anything that's profitable. XBox 360 will ultimately be the same failure its predecessor was.Jun 16 11:24
schestowitzIntegration and development of *what*? These terms apply to modular bits like FOSS. Also, they seem to be fixated on Google (ad+search).Jun 16 11:25
mark_antony_kentThey might've had some success with Xbox if they'd not tried to re-use Windows;  or tried to do their own hardware - they're not really up to it.  Integration and so on does imply a quite new model, I agree.Jun 16 11:26
schestowitzCurrent model: licencing. Red Hat tax, Samba tax, cross-licensing with embedded device manufacturers.Jun 16 11:27
mark_antony_kentyup - milking the cash-cow.Jun 16 11:28
schestowitzOracle and any other wise business (including Microsoft's recent acquisitions) integrate their solutions with GNU/Linux. Don't you think Microsoft is scared of it? What to do...? Shove the Windows API in there.Jun 16 11:28
mark_antony_kentIf they could get away with it, it would guarantee them some income, I'm sure.  Not ethically, of course... but I'm not sure how worried about that they are.Jun 16 11:30
mark_antony_kentYour News article on Philanthropic priorities from was quite amusing...Jun 16 11:32
schestowitzGates is leaving (sort of), indicating that paperwork will replace some development and political games be necessary.Jun 16 11:32
schestowitzI'm surprised that there were no attacks on/against it.  Yet/Jun 16 11:33
mark_antony_kentAgainst BG leaving, you mean?Jun 16 11:34
schestowitzNo, against my post about the uncovered part of Microsoft Fundation.Jun 16 11:36
mark_antony_kentI don't know about you, but I get the feeling that the trolls are beginning to run out of wind, at least, at the moment.  Are they being called back for some great announcement?Jun 16 11:36
schestowitzI think they resort more often to personal insults.Jun 16 11:37
mark_antony_kentWhich is a good indication that they're entirely out of technical or economic argument, and have recognised it.Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzThey try to drive away the crowd. Passing on of one's demoralisation.Jun 16 11:38
mark_antony_kentThis is why the digests are good.  They leap out of google because of the large number of links and relevant content.Jun 16 11:39
schestowitzYes, keywords and all.Jun 16 11:43
schestowitzThey tried to harass you through your employer for a while (against the digests), but that stopped.Jun 16 11:43
schestowitzIntimidation is another pattern showing weakness. Have a read:Jun 16 11:44
schestowitz 16 11:45
mark_antony_kentum, willdoJun 16 11:45
mark_antony_kenttaJun 16 11:45
schestowitzThis one is newer (from another one who was smeared and harassed by Microsoft. He was here on IRC a fortnight ago): "Lets see how the Microsoft machinery reacts to this set of interesting news, and see how they spin in.  How much has this fiasco cost them? What did they get out of it? A chance to be more open? Can you see a change yet?"Jun 16 11:46
mark_antony_kentI agree, no signs of any change at the moment.Jun 16 11:48
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schestowitz[Pardon the lag... just been chatting with a colleague.] Are you referring to Microsoft or the Windows trolls?Jun 16 11:58
mark_antony_ken1Microsoft for "no change" and trolls at "gone fairly quiet, away from technical and economic issues and onto silly personal attacks".Jun 16 11:59
[H]omerThey know they can't win on technical issuesJun 16 11:59
schestowitzAh well.. things have changed a lot in the past year. When I was in COLA in 2006 we had no upper hand.Jun 16 12:00
[H]omerAnd Microsoft's economic dominance are due to racketeering, as several antitrust proceedings proveJun 16 12:01
schestowitzMarketing = perception of technical merit; Patents = perception of technical ownership. Microsoft works hard on both, but none if technical progress.Jun 16 12:01
mark_antony_ken1You're right, the board is very much tilted in favour of the foss world, now.  It's even become possible to put some pressure on proprietary companies to be at least a little more away of the foss community's requirements.Jun 16 12:01
schestowitz<[H]omer>, the EU is nothing to rely on. The financial injury incurred by Neelie is nothing compared to a disaster like XBox360.Jun 16 12:02
schestowitzI don't know if you guys ever follow, but I only write there about issues that I view as important, long-term. It's not about the Linux device ju jour or the new feature Linux has. It's about dirty tricks to change law and play with /people/ (not objects).Jun 16 12:04
schestowitzMicrosoft lost the technical battle long ago (with some exceptions). It's especially stuff like Wine and virtualisation that makes them very weak and fragile. Windows just becomes an /application/, not a platform.Jun 16 12:05
mark_antony_ken1I've always found the lnog term stuff to be the most interesting, but it's often reflected in what's happening today.  Did you see my recent message to mitch on the 3-technology problem?Jun 16 12:05
schestowitzIsn't Mitch a Mac person? I typically cross out (set to ignore) everything that comes from the Mac boards.Jun 16 12:06
mark_antony_ken1Not seen him before, but he responded to one of my "desktop is dead" posts with a stack of ill-informed remarks, so I did some explanation...Jun 16 12:07
[H]omerTalking of Wine ... I resurrected one of my old Windows games yesterday - "Little Big Adventure". No way to get it to work on XP AFAICT (scrambled video and no audio), but it works on Linux under WIne perfectlyJun 16 12:08
schestowitzI think I saw that. In fact, 15 minutes ago I sent an article to Datamation's editor and it contains bits about demise of the desktop.Jun 16 12:08
schestowitzI *loved* Little Big Adventure. The graphics was amazing at the time.Jun 16 12:09
schestowitzVESA!Jun 16 12:09
mark_antony_ken1[H]omer: Part of the 3-technology problem is consolidating legacy on current generation - wine is brilliant because it provides an excellent means of doing so for win32 stuff - dosbox does the same for dos programmes.Jun 16 12:09
[H]omerI'm not aware of that phrase "3-technology". What does it pertain to?Jun 16 12:10
schestowitzMeanwhile, the British Library is running Win3.1 virtualised to access old documents. What a bunch of *. They should move to ODF.Jun 16 12:10
mark_antony_ken1ahahaha - you need to read my posting in response to mitch :-)Jun 16 12:10
mark_antony_ken1I need to ressurect my brief bloggin attempt and write more of this down.Jun 16 12:10
[H]omerWhat thread was that, on COLA?Jun 16 12:11
[H]omerI k/file a lot of the Mac stuffJun 16 12:11
mark_antony_ken1It wasn't a mac discussion, it was about the "death of the desktop"Jun 16 12:12
schestowitzhere's the URL: 16 12:12
[H]omerAh OK ... *that* threadJun 16 12:13
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mark_antony_ken1that's part of it, but doesn't seem to have the conversation with mitch in it.Jun 16 12:15
mark_antony_ken1I note that people are still trying to link my day job with Microsoft... nothing could be further from the truth.Jun 16 12:15
mark_antony_ken1 16 12:16
[H]omerRight, I get it now. It's about the predictable nature of transitions from the past to the present and the future (a.k.a. history repeating itself).Jun 16 12:18
schestowitzOh, that's a thread I had set to "ignore".Jun 16 12:18
mark_antony_ken1Pretty much, yes.  There're some very wide issues here, though - if you're running a large business, then these things correspond to huge amounts of money.  I can go into a lot more detail about the model with respect to where innovation takes place and where consolidation takes place.  Amongst other things, it desmonstrates why Wine was *never* a threat to linux...Jun 16 12:19
schestowitzNice theory there. There was an article last year about gates leaving because he saw Microsoft as the next stagnating IBM. Google is a possible.. well, candidate for inheritance. Sun and Oracle -- who knows?Jun 16 12:20
mark_antony_ken1Thanks!  I've been showing it at presentations for some time - most people go "hey, wow, I'd never thought of it like that before".  It also fits the "disruptive technology" model of chistensen very well, and even explains why cash cows and rising stars need to be on separate technical platforms.  It's a very very good model.Jun 16 12:22
schestowitzIBM moved to licensing (s/w patents) too. They too are suffering at the moment.Jun 16 12:23
[H]omerYes, although the specific future of technology is not predictable, societal changes *are* based on patterns of use and demand, therefore one can predict the direction in which one should steer technologyJun 16 12:23
schestowitzAnd finally, there *is* a Google Linux, but it doesn't come in the form people expected it (GNU/Linux distro for 'the desktop').Jun 16 12:24
schestowitzbrbJun 16 12:24
[H]omerWeb based?Jun 16 12:24
mark_antony_ken1Agreed.  The idea that you cannot "predict the future" is, really, more than a bit naive.  I think that you can readily say where consolidation is taking place, and you can recognise what is innovation and what is consolidation (usually confused).  Google have done a really good job of spotting the innovation opportunities, but are rapidly becoming "today's technology";  mash-ups seem to be looknig more like Jun 16 12:25
mark_antony_ken1Along with appliances and mobility.Jun 16 12:26
[H]omerJust catching up on COLAJun 16 12:28
mark_antony_ken1Interesting seeing on google how I'm still being stalked...Jun 16 12:29
schestowitzI haven't posted in COLA today. I will come around to it later on. Too many things got in the way, so juggling a little...Jun 16 12:29
schestowitzHow so, Mark?Jun 16 12:29
mark_antony_ken1Oh, you know, the follow-ups with out-of-context quotes and out and out lies.Jun 16 12:30
schestowitzI noticed yesterday that about 70 times so far this month people came to my personal site (dunno about other site) by searching for my surname.Jun 16 12:30
schestowitzOh, I thought you meant something else then.Jun 16 12:31
schestowitzThere was an ambiguity there (see if you can spot it)Jun 16 12:31
mark_antony_ken1Nothing worse than that, yet.Jun 16 12:31
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schestowitzHere is something quite nifty. A little like a 'LinFS' (aka the now deceased WinFS): 16 12:47
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EruaranMore on KDE 4.1's rather nifty folder view plasmoid: 16 13:45
schestowitzIt's an excellent idea, but people will take time getting used to the new metaphor.Jun 16 13:48
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Eruaranhi roy, I just got backJun 16 15:18
EruaranI think once people get used to it they'll wonder how they ever made do without itJun 16 15:19
schestowitzWelcome back. have you seen the latest posts yet? Microsoft invasion...Jun 16 15:19
schestowitzWin3.1->95 was a small leap. Nothing much has changed since then, not even in ME2. People come to expect this metaphor.Jun 16 15:20
Eruaranare they on BN ?Jun 16 15:21
EruaranI love what the kde team are doing, its going to be a great desktopJun 16 15:21
schestowitzYes, it is. But it's not even stable enough for Liquidat (Roland) yet, and he's a big KDE fan.Jun 16 15:23
EruaranYes its not quite stable enough for me yet, though I hear the latest build in svn is stable.Jun 16 15:23
EruaranI'll just wait till July 29Jun 16 15:24
schestowitzReally? That would be a relief. 4.0.3 I think was a step for the worse, IIRC, based on one the screenshots 'guru' from PolishLinux wrote.Jun 16 15:24
EruaranThey liquidated plasma and rebuilt it a few weeks agoJun 16 15:25
schestowitz3.1 was very stable for me. I used it until 2007.Jun 16 15:25
schestowitzYes, Plasma is hectic (many changes).Jun 16 15:25
EruaranPlasma has been rebuilt to take advantage of the latest QtJun 16 15:25
schestowitzAnd I worry that Seigo does interview and blogs frequently to defend his work. Which means less coding is done.Jun 16 15:26
EruaranyesJun 16 15:26
EruaranI think people are being overly criticalJun 16 15:26
schestowitzIs anyone else working with hjm on it?Jun 16 15:26
EruaranI believe soJun 16 15:26
schestowitzThat's good. Beranger has been an ass about it for a long, long time.Jun 16 15:27
EruaranIf you dont take risks there's no payoffJun 16 15:27
EruaranEvery great project has always had its die hard naysayersJun 16 15:28
EruaranI hope Aaron doesn't get discouraged by itJun 16 15:28
schestowitzWell, I hope the project doesn't depend on one public face. Beranger joked about KDE4 just being sheep following Aaron.Jun 16 15:29
EruaranSomeone's got to have a visionJun 16 15:29
EruaranAnd his vision is goodJun 16 15:29
schestowitzFree software is like an open oven where you can see the meal cooking. There's no curtain or cover. That's what makes KDE so sensitive to early slagging.Jun 16 15:30
EruaranI hate it when I see GNOME people being dismissive and arrogant while they slag off and call kde a failureJun 16 15:30
schestowitzSomeone comes and grabs an alpha version (half-cooked meal), then complains about the taste...Jun 16 15:31
EruaranI dont see anything in GNOME worth crowing aboutJun 16 15:31
schestowitzI use GNOME too. I criticise GNOME only for the Mono bits (looking ahead), but not for anything else..Jun 16 15:31
EruaranI think the gusty approach of Aaron and everyone who is working with him will pay off big in the endJun 16 15:32
EruaranPoint is they criticize everything just for the sake of itJun 16 15:32
schestowitzThey have over 50 million Brazilian children waiting for KDE4. :-)Jun 16 15:33
Eruaran:DJun 16 15:33
schestowitzI'm sure it's just resistance to change. Leopard too had its share of early disaster, but Apple and its loyal users kept quiet about it. I could find you articles I've accumulated to show this.Jun 16 15:34
EruaranI'm enthused about change... its about timeJun 16 15:35
EruaranBut its those little things as wellJun 16 15:35
EruaranThose little things that make you think, "why didn't anyone think of that before ?"Jun 16 15:35
EruaranLike proper highlighted search in KonsoleJun 16 15:36
schestowitzI'm trying to find the refs. Look what I found along the way (2005): 16 15:36
EruaranAnd the little green hover buttons in Dolphin that show up when you mouse over a file that allow you to simply click and select multiple files... simple, discoverable, niceJun 16 15:37
schestowitzHere are Apple's pains: 16 15:38
EruaranyesJun 16 15:39
EruaranWhat I love about those little green buttons is that the user doesn't need anyone to tell them to hold down ctrl and click on stuff... the user can see this little green thing and figure it out without helpJun 16 15:41
Eruaranthats usability in actionJun 16 15:41
EruarandiscoverabilityJun 16 15:42
schestowitzI think Vista had something similar.Jun 16 15:42
EruaranI havent seen it in VistaJun 16 15:42
schestowitzIt gives options though. bear in mind that I have not used Windows for years, so I only read about it.Jun 16 15:42
EruaranVista's 'gadgets' and file management is primitive compared to what is going on with kde 4Jun 16 15:43
Eruarandolphin is just getting better and better, they really are leading on usability, the power is there also, you've got folder view, and nepomukJun 16 15:43
schestowitzWill they still maintain and extend Konqy?Jun 16 15:44
EruaranyesJun 16 15:44
EruaranYou'll prize Konqueror from the dev's cold dead hands ;)Jun 16 15:45
schestowitzBecause I need FTP and KIO and all those advanced things that make other file manager feel primitive.Jun 16 15:45
schestowitzKonqueror is at the centre of 3.5, even the desktop. KWin is important also. I hardly think about the rest (I use gdm)Jun 16 15:46
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schestowitzBECTA is stil getting ripped 16 15:46
EruaranObviously plasma is the central thing now, but it doesnt throw good stuff away, it just extends the use 'plasma wide'Jun 16 15:46
Eruaranso you folder view uses kioJun 16 15:47
Eruaranand ftpJun 16 15:47
Eruaranand nepomukJun 16 15:47
Eruaran:PJun 16 15:47
EruaranKonqueror isnt going unlovedJun 16 15:48
schestowitzThat's good. I thought they ripped bits of it for Dolphin. Tabs were added too.Jun 16 15:49
Eruaranpeople like dolphin, and i can understand thatJun 16 15:50
schestowitzAre you involved in KDE?Jun 16 15:51
EruaranI'm just an advocate who likes to keep up with whats going onJun 16 15:52
EruaranThough IJun 16 15:53
EruaranI'd like to get involved at some stage... I'd like to learn some coding first :PJun 16 15:54
schestowitzI used Qt for a while, but not much.Jun 16 15:54
schestowitzOBS: It's so annoying when everything under the sun is call "Open Source" (no dash, not even lowcase): *sigh*Jun 16 15:55
schestowitzSSD+open source ('open-source' h/w?!?!): Some years ago "open source" actually referred more to code.Jun 16 15:56
EruaranyesJun 16 15:56
schestowitzHeh.Jun 16 15:58
schestowitzJust found that we made the India press:  So there is a whole lot of skepticism in the process. A website developed by people who want to show their anger against this policy by Microsoft is there with the domain name boycottnovell. http://business.merinews.c...Jun 16 15:58
schestowitzI didn't even notice it by searching. I just read this idiotic article which pretends that if only 4 countries /complain/, then all else was fine (no stuffing, no gagging, no bullying, etc). I blame Microsoft's brainwash (history rewrite) for this disconnect, ignorance. Jun 16 15:59
EruaranI learned something interesting about a major retailer here in Australia recentlyJun 16 16:00
EruaranMicrosoft required them to pull XP off the shelves when they started shipping VistaJun 16 16:01
schestowitzI heard something similar.Jun 16 16:01
schestowitzMaybe I can find it...Jun 16 16:01
EruaranThey literally had to send the stock back apparrentlyJun 16 16:01
Eruaranor rather exchange itJun 16 16:01
schestowitzI'm not sure how to find it or what it was, but it was a rumour that was extremely damaging. Something about retaliation.Jun 16 16:02
schestowitzLet me search anyhow.Jun 16 16:02
schestowitzFor the first time I actually searched for something like this: (I don't do vanity searches, but the article above got me curious)Jun 16 16:04
EruaranCurrently if you attempt to open a .odt document for example in Microsoft Word, you get assailed by dialogues that say the document is corrupted, asks you if you want to 'fix' it, and it insinuates you shouldn't trust it or the source it came from.Jun 16 16:10
schestowitzRemember DR-DOS?Jun 16 16:11
EruaranI know there are many people who will think negatively about ODF because of this kind of flat out BS in Microsoft products.Jun 16 16:11
EruaranyesJun 16 16:11
schestowitz 16 16:12
schestowitz 16 16:12
schestowitz 16 16:13
EruaranI love this one: "If Microsoft says you’ve got five fingers on each hand, many people will insist on an independent count."Jun 16 16:13
schestowitzMicrosoft: "what the guy is supposed to do is feel uncomfortable, and when he has bugs, suspect that the problem is dr-dos and then go out and buy ms-dos, or decide not to take the risk for the other machines he has to buy for in the office."Jun 16 16:14
EruaranEven if they tell the truth, nobody trusts them, such is their history and reputation.Jun 16 16:14
Eruaranyes, they are up to the same old tricksJun 16 16:14
schestowitz"Concerns have been raised that DR-DOS incompatibilities and flaws are being overlooked by reviewers. [...] We recommend that we *informally* plant the bug of FUD in their ears. “Have you heard about problems with DR DOS?”Jun 16 16:15
EruaranI decided to try and open an open document in Word one day just to see what happened... what I saw simply disgusted me.Jun 16 16:15
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EruaranHave you seen the clip on YouTube where a guy attempts to use Vista's voice regognition with OpenOffice ?Jun 16 16:16
PetoKraus:DJun 16 16:16
EruaranHe tries it out with MS Word, then word pad and it all works fineJun 16 16:17
schestowitz (Microsoft's Burton puppet: "ODF is simplistic" (bad word). Beat in mind that Pete O'Kelly later had contracts with Microsoft. Lots of money.Jun 16 16:17
EruaranThen he tries it with OpenOffice and Vista's speech recognition suddenly develops selective deafness and an inability to comprehend basic speech patterns.Jun 16 16:17
PetoKrausEruaran: got vid?Jun 16 16:17
PetoKraus*linkJun 16 16:18
schestowitzYes, please.Jun 16 16:18
Eruaranyes, just a sec PetoKraus (and hello)Jun 16 16:18
PetoKrausi'd even launch firefox to see that :)Jun 16 16:18
schestowitzThat;s something to write about. Also your easrlier observation.,Jun 16 16:18
EruaranIf you like I could take some screenshots tomorrow at workJun 16 16:19
Eruaranof the dialogues MS Word gives you when you try to use and ODF documentJun 16 16:19
schestowitzPlease do. The error message. I can make an Ogg from YouTube vids.Jun 16 16:19
schestowitzYes, a screenshot would be good.Jun 16 16:19
PetoKrausschestowitz: how do you do that, anywayJun 16 16:19
EruaranI was disgusted when I first saw them because I knew that Microsoft knows damn well what a .odt isJun 16 16:20
schestowitzakf told me about a service that allows you to download the flvs. I used to have PyTube working, but Google broke its functionality.Jun 16 16:20
EruaranMiro looks good... I havent tried it yet but it looks goodJun 16 16:21
schestowitzIt then ought to be pointed out that Microsoft claims to have become 'buddies' with ODF. Not quite, eh?Jun 16 16:22
EruaranVista speech recognition refusing to work with OOo: 16 16:22
EruaranOne commenter says: It is a demonstration of how Vista speech recognition is deliberately crippled with a non-Microsoft piece of software.Jun 16 16:23
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PetoKrausLMAOJun 16 16:26
schestowitzWow.Jun 16 16:26
schestowitzThe "Wow" starts.... now.Jun 16 16:26
EruaranyesJun 16 16:27
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schestowitzSo we can conclude from this that Notepad is better than OOoJun 16 16:27
PetoKraussure!Jun 16 16:27
Eruaranoh yeah ;)Jun 16 16:27
PetoKrausit has more useful featuresJun 16 16:27
PetoKraussuch as working Speech RecognitionJun 16 16:27
PetoKrausman, that "hello world" -> opening help and "new line" -> "what was that"Jun 16 16:28
PetoKrausthat's brilliantJun 16 16:28
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schestowitzMicrosoft could argue that OOo is just not 'interoperable' with Vista or this part of it.Jun 16 16:28
PetoKrausthat's a lieJun 16 16:29
schestowitzPlaying devil's advocate here anyway.Jun 16 16:29
EruaranIts just so blatant I cant believe no one has pointed this little tid bit out to the EU CommissionJun 16 16:30
schestowitzJust in: (Vista's big problem: 92 percent of developers ignoring it)Jun 16 16:30
EruaranDid you know that Linux dominates 85% of the HPC market ?Jun 16 16:31
Eruaran(High Performance Computing)Jun 16 16:31
schestowitz91%+ if you include virtualisation.Jun 16 16:31
EruaranDevelopers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers !Jun 16 16:32
schestowitzJust 11 times. It was 14.Jun 16 16:33
EruaranD'oh !Jun 16 16:34
PetoKrausoh come on :PJun 16 16:34
schestowitzNo sweat!Jun 16 16:34
EruaranhehJun 16 16:35
schestowitzbrbJun 16 16:35
EruaranA friend at work was telling me the other day how much trouble it is developing Vista appsJun 16 16:35
schestowitzTry design hardware for it. Ask Creative Labs, AMD and NVidia.Jun 16 16:37
EruaranNvidia will have to open up at some pointJun 16 16:38
PetoKrauswell, it would be cool if amd just released the chip specc'sJun 16 16:38
PetoKrausand said: MS, code your drivers yourself :PJun 16 16:38
schestowitzThey will <Eruaran> .Jun 16 16:39
schestowitzSomeone told me. Eye August.Jun 16 16:39
PetoKrauswell, it'll take long time...Jun 16 16:39
schestowitzIt's not for sure, but a big announcement is coming.Jun 16 16:39
EruaranI installed Ubuntu on a couple of notebooks with Intel graphics chipsets last weekJun 16 16:39
EruaranIt was a dreamJun 16 16:39
Eruaran"just works"Jun 16 16:39
EruaranPretty as a peachJun 16 16:39
PetoKrauswellJun 16 16:40
PetoKrausi've installed ubuntu on Intel ICH8 chipsetJun 16 16:40
PetoKrausno audio.Jun 16 16:40
schestowitzI have one at home, sadly. Compiz worked out of the box, but I hate Intel.Jun 16 16:40
EruaranIts just nice when things work like that even from the live CDJun 16 16:40
schestowitzI had everything work from the live CD at home last year. It was Ubuntu 5.04 IIRCJun 16 16:41
Eruaran5.04 ? wowJun 16 16:41
schestowitzYes, I still have 4.10 CDs.Jun 16 16:42
EruaranI started using Kubuntu at 5.04Jun 16 16:42
schestowitzIt uses FF 0.9x IIRC. I had trouble with one site because of thisJun 16 16:43
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Eruaranoh I just rememberedJun 16 16:43
EruaranIts FF download day todayJun 16 16:43
schestowitzYeah, whatever. :-)Jun 16 16:44
schestowitzI had a little argument with Asa last year, so I'm not going to do much PR for them by 'signing up' for the privilege to hammer the server.Jun 16 16:44
EruaranhehJun 16 16:44
schestowitzThey are Mac users over there... most of them anywayJun 16 16:45
EruaranReally ?Jun 16 16:45
EruaranI didnt know thatJun 16 16:45
schestowitzThe recently-released videos from Sean Kerner Michael seemed to suggest so. They don't mind defective by design gear. Same with Novell.Jun 16 16:46
Eruaranhmm dissappointingJun 16 16:47
Eruaran*disappointingJun 16 16:47
schestowitzThey are not a Free software company, but that's OK. It's the arrival of more restrictive EULAs (I think) in 1.5 that had some folks concerned.Jun 16 16:49
EruaranI haven't followed FF muchJun 16 16:51
EruaranI use Konqueror most of the timeJun 16 16:51
schestowitzI ought to do so too, but I'm 'addicted' to some plugins.Jun 16 16:53
EruaranI tend to use Konq simply because it starts up fasterJun 16 16:57
schestowitzMakes sense. I need XUL rehab, It takes over 10 seconds for my PCs to start Firefox. It has other loads. Main issue (in v2 at least): memory leaks.Jun 16 16:59
Eruaranyes I've heard about the memory leaksJun 16 17:01
EruaranIf I had 'stumbleupon' for Konqueror IJun 16 17:01
schestowitzI'll test FF3 next weekend at home before upgrading at work.Jun 16 17:01
Eruaran*I'd hardly ever need to use FF at allJun 16 17:01
EruaranIve been using FF3 on Ubuntu at work without problemsJun 16 17:02
schestowitzIt's compatibility with plugins (usually just need to change some string in the XULs) that's the issue.Jun 16 17:03
schestowitzI use some very old plaugins. Since the pre-1.0 version.Jun 16 17:03
EruarangtgJun 16 17:15
EruaranbblJun 16 17:15
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