Bonum Certa Men Certa

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 23rd, 2008

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kentma(12:04:58) kentma: [H]omer: are you okay for a private chat on the phone calls thing?Jun 23 12:02
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzJun 23 12:04
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation.Jun 23 12:06
schestowitz[H]omer, that FreeNode-wide error left me Op-less (pronounced hopeless?)Jun 23 12:08
kentmaschestowitz: I found myself in a room alone for some time there, before ChanServ returned.Jun 23 12:09
schestowitzThere was a similar problem last week. They had script kiddies messing about on the face of it. All channels that I'm on were affected.Jun 23 12:10
kentmaschestowitz: ahh, save us from bored kids...   Were these DOS attacks from botnets or some weakness in ircd?Jun 23 12:14
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schestowitzI really don't know. But anyway, look what I've found: ............. "Memorandum of Understanding".... I'm posting about it shortly.Jun 23 12:16
kentmaWere MS promoting oss solutions into a developing IT space, you could see long term benefits for oss and Arab north Africa.  As things stand, I suspect that they'll be doing the usual, which will merely waste shareholder and Arab government money on promoting legacy technology and business models.Jun 23 12:19
schestowitz"Unlimited Potential" it says at the bottom.  It's Microsoft anti-Linux Adoption Program.Jun 23 12:21
kentmashareholders, surely, will begin to baulk at these increasingly futile attempts to bolster a business  model which is clearly unsustainable in the gnu world.Jun 23 12:23
schestowitzIf Microsoft's profits continue to decline, the incentive to fight disruption will decline also.Jun 23 12:29
kentmaPerhaps, I think it'll depend on whether they manage to change their management at any pointJun 23 12:33
schestowitzThe problem is this.Jun 23 12:40
schestowitzBallmer just wants to meet expectations/forecasts, so he can't change strategy (without being injured, short-term). That's where Ozzie steps in. But a lot of the other senior left. Really, they did. Microsoft lost many of its icons and they continue to leave.Jun 23 12:42
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>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitzJun 23 15:16
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation.Jun 23 15:16
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schestowitzAfternoon, PetoKraus.Jun 23 15:41
PetoKraus'lloJun 23 15:41
PetoKrausi am freaking melting! 33C in the shadeJun 23 15:41
schestowitzIt's abnormal for your country, isn't it?Jun 23 15:41
PetoKrausnot reallyJun 23 15:41
PetoKrausit's summer.Jun 23 15:41
schestowitzPJ has just praised your distro: "e shows KDE 4, by the way, in the course of the video, and while he makes fun of Gentoo, I have to say that it's my next distro to try. Here's why. The last time I went to the mall, I was in a computer store, and the guy waiting on me was telling me about Gentoo. He said it's true it takes a while to set it up, but once you do, you've got a smooth, fast system customized for you."Jun 23 15:42
Eruaranhello guysJun 23 15:43
schestowitzHowdy.Jun 23 15:43
PetoKrausthe main point of gentoo is that "customized for you" part... Many people don't want that. They want something generic.Jun 23 15:50
EruaranI'm going to get around to trying out Gentoo sooner or laterJun 23 15:51
schestowitzI hardly modify my system, software-wise, so I could probably live with Gentoo or its good derivatives. Sabayon is a bit scary though because it uses packages that are betas...Jun 23 15:55
PetoKraussabayon doesn't build from source, i thinkJun 23 15:56
schestowitzI don't think so either, but it uses Entropy (IIRC), which works with emerge.Jun 23 15:58
schestowitzHave you guys seen this: ?Jun 23 16:02
PetoKrauslinus didn't sign itJun 23 16:11
schestowitzNo? I didn't notice. Well, I won't assume it's an accident.Jun 23 16:12
PetoKrauswell, me neither, since Andrew Morton didJun 23 16:12
PetoKrausmaybe it didn't reach him yetJun 23 16:13
PetoKrausyou know, it's summer :)Jun 23 16:13
schestowitzWhen Linus blasted an early GPLv3 draft, other kernel devs followed him like sheep (agreeing with him _WITHOUT READING THE LICENCE_)Jun 23 16:13
PetoKrauswell, you can always distribute the kernel under GPLv3 i thinkJun 23 16:16
PetoKraussince you yourself are free to "upgrade" the licenseJun 23 16:16
schestowitzToo many big vendors are being the Foundation. It's practically pointless to fork.Jun 23 16:18
PetoKrauswell sureJun 23 16:18
PetoKrausbut you know, you can do the same as debian doesJun 23 16:18
PetoKrausiceweasel is not a fork of firefoxJun 23 16:19
schestowitzYou then need to deal with all the 'political' things like passing of the blobs.Jun 23 16:19
schestowitzYes, did you see my latest link digest? I call it Iceweasel download day. :-)Jun 23 16:19
PetoKrausi didn't, i am spending way too much time offline, unfortunately :PJun 23 16:24
schestowitzJust don't run around too much. You'd get dehydrated. Anyway, to be on topic, I'm going through many OpenSUSE reviews at the moment. Here's the issue: OpenSUSE, unlike Ubuntu, is adopted typically by 'experts' or long-time SUSEers, so they know their way around. I can't find 'n00b reviews'.Jun 23 16:28
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schestowitzMroning, maxstirner.Jun 23 16:38
maxstirnergood morning roy :)Jun 23 16:39
maxstirnerthought i'd go idle on your channel whilst going through the links for today ;)Jun 23 16:39
maxstirnerpleasant weekend?Jun 23 16:40
schestowitzYes, been rainy though.Jun 23 16:40
maxstirnerwelcome to england? :)Jun 23 16:41
maxstirnerhow do you accumulate these links so quickly? do you use google news search or some sort of sophisticated RSS reader?Jun 23 16:42
schestowitzWell, I spend a lot of time indoors, so I don't mind too much. Though it has been nice running in Trafford on Sundays, but not this weekend.Jun 23 16:42
schestowitzJust in: 23 16:42
maxstirnerniceJun 23 16:43
schestowitzAnother goodie from the s/w patent lovers at Trend Miro: http://www.channelregister.c... (IOW, Windows security is kaput, say security vendors themselves)Jun 23 16:44
schestowitz"However Chen, who has five patents to her name, admitted that investors nervously questioned her risky decision." So trolling (sort of) is the new business plan. Meet the SCO of the snake oil industry.Jun 23 16:46
maxstirnerThere’s water free out there and its drinkable but there’s people buying bottled water, and you have to ask the question why?Jun 23 16:47
maxstirnerclassicJun 23 16:47
maxstirnerthe answer to that is (if tap water clean) "because consumers are morons"Jun 23 16:48
maxstirneri wonder if there would be more working implementations of worms for linux with growing market share on the desktopJun 23 16:50
schestowitzYou mean, written by security vendors? It's a similar situation.Jun 23 16:52
schestowitzCreate risk, then use it to sell. Novell did that too, didn't it? "lolz omg! there's patent risk, buy suse, gets protection. oh noes!!11 ms is after you"Jun 23 16:53
maxstirneri meant generally successful implementations.. gnu/lx on lots of servers already, but with desktop popularity you get the "clicking on things" aspect..Jun 23 16:54
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schestowitzThere's a Mac Trojan in the news at the moment. Linux' Achilles heel is probably applications like OOo, assuming something penetrated past the O/S level.Jun 23 16:55
EruaranGNU/Linux distro's are not homogenizedJun 23 16:56
maxstirnerI remember the hack-a-pc contest the other day, they hacked the mac using some quicktime vulnerability via clicking on...Jun 23 16:56
maxstirnerthat's certainly an advantage.. EruaranJun 23 16:56
schestowitzYes, Schneier wrote about this a couple of years back. Diversity _plus_ memory allocation that's less predictable is a big advantage.Jun 23 16:57
maxstirnerand the su/user distinction perhaps..Jun 23 16:59
EruaranApple has regressed into security by obscurityJun 23 16:59
maxstirnerdidnt MS try to cut out the ISVs with their own anti-spyware attempt?Jun 23 16:59
EruaranDefender ?Jun 23 17:00
maxstirnerthe underlying BSD should be secure shouldnt it, its just their safari + quicktime software thats ful of holesJun 23 17:00
maxstirnerEruaran, yes..Jun 23 17:01
EruaranDefender is also known as DCSJun 23 17:01
Eruaran(Doesn't Catch Shit)Jun 23 17:01
schestowitzVista was claimed recently to be as 'secure' as Windows 2000. Two independent sources, IIRC.Jun 23 17:02
schestowitzIt's a question of perception only.Jun 23 17:02
EruaranI've heard Ballmer claim that Vista is the most secure operating system. Period.Jun 23 17:02
EruaranHe's full of snappy one liners like that.Jun 23 17:03
maxstirnerdevelopers, developers,developers,developers,developers, developers,developers,developers,developers,developers, developers,developers,developers,developers,developers?Jun 23 17:03
maxstirner:DJun 23 17:03
schestowitzI'll get you some URLs.Jun 23 17:03
EruaranOne of the directors of the company I work for recently sent an email to everyone in the company about Microsoft's futureJun 23 17:04
maxstirnerwin2000 was rather secure, wasnt it based on NT? certainly a long-time favourite at a couple of corporations i worked atJun 23 17:04
schestowitzAmassed here: 23 17:04
EruaranAnd where we should be headingJun 23 17:04
maxstirnerwhat's the industry EruaranJun 23 17:04
EruaranITJun 23 17:04
maxstirnerobviously ;)Jun 23 17:05
EruaranHe talked about the rumblings within the industry and how Windows 7 is expected approx three years after Vista's release dateJun 23 17:05
EruaranHe said simply, "Microsoft does not have three years".Jun 23 17:05
maxstirnerfunnily enough, thats exactly how I feel about MS :DJun 23 17:06
schestowitzI hope people don't believe the 7apourware.Jun 23 17:06
schestowitzIt's intended to freeze the marketJun 23 17:06
EruaranThe marked cannot be frozenJun 23 17:06
schestowitzThe 'demo' came just before a major OEM decision time.Jun 23 17:06
EruaranIts already starting to shiftJun 23 17:07
maxstirnernever happen schestowitz, they already leaked its a poshed-up vista :dJun 23 17:07
EruaranWe already have clients and customers who are using more than 4GB of RAM and want to know what their options are in overcoming the 32bit memory limits, and they don't want  Vista.Jun 23 17:08
maxstirnerBeyond all the freedom as in speech, I think there's a straightforward economic free beer imperative at this stage, and these things tend to work in capitalismJun 23 17:09
EruaranEsepecially people who are using OpenGL based professional graphics apps.Jun 23 17:09
maxstirnerno amount of purchasing nigerian ministers can prevent the coming landslideJun 23 17:09
schestowitzThey should be using 64-bit laptop with enterprise-grade Linux. These do exist.Jun 23 17:09
EruaranI really don't understand companies like Adobe and Autodesk.Jun 23 17:10
EruaranThis market doesn't care what platform it uses, so long at it works.Jun 23 17:10
schestowitz<maxstirner>, I found a lot of political manipulation this morning See the posts. We'll be seeing more lawsuits by proxy in the future.Jun 23 17:10
maxstirnerJust looking through your vista security article, schestowitz, brings back all the memoriesJun 23 17:10
schestowitz<Eruaran> , apps like Maya 3D are already GNU/Linux focus. It's chicken and egg...Jun 23 17:11
EruaranyesJun 23 17:11
maxstirnerthe marketing machine still works.. they launched it as a beta knowing v well that it was most probably ull of bugs and holes, but they still got all the "pc pro magazine" type press repeating the nonsenseJun 23 17:11
EruaranPC magazines are the same as "analysts"Jun 23 17:12
schestowitzThe Vista lies lasted for a few good months. They AstroTurfed too, free laptops, fake reviews, etc.Jun 23 17:12
maxstirneri then had to endure hearing the same nonsense from my dear father (75), "pc pro magazine" in hand, how he wants to "upgrade" to vista because its secureJun 23 17:12
schestowitzMicrosoft is no ordinary company.Jun 23 17:12
maxstirnerwell immediately after launch they had to issue this massive pack of updates to stuff the first major holesJun 23 17:12
schestowitzI told this to Asay some time ago. There's no prejudice here. I personally loathe crime. Microsoft just happens to resort to a lot of corruption, so me and Microsoft and no friends.Jun 23 17:12
maxstirnerits all in the billions isnt it.. with that sort of monopoly, you cant really lose.. or at least you SHOULDNT :DJun 23 17:13
EruaranVery often when a customer says, "it says in [insert magazine name here]", I respond with, "you mean the same magazine that told you Norton 360 was great software ?"Jun 23 17:13
maxstirnerheheheheJun 23 17:14
schestowitzThey pushed hard on marketing with a budget of half a billion dollars and hoped to imprison people inside Vista using the critical mass theory. They failed.  A year later less tthan 1% of the businesses ran Vista. Yes, less than 1%.Jun 23 17:14
EruaranMagazine reviews are bought.Jun 23 17:14
maxstirner5 dumbest moves blog entry: "4) Unwillingness to cannibalize its own products, aka greed"Jun 23 17:14
maxstirnerit's really the two desktop products MS lives on (Win and Office) that are subject to massive market pressure nowJun 23 17:15
schestowitzYes.Jun 23 17:16
maxstirnerschestowitz, but now everybody is forced to buy vista licenses (even if they downgrade) so they will get some "reportable" figuresJun 23 17:16
schestowitzI trust Joe Wilcox when he says that Windows and Office are pretty much _all_ of Microsoft... in the sense that they are profitable. The rest is losing heaps. Attempts to evolve and all...Jun 23 17:17
schestowitzThat's the power of monopoly. You call the shots. If people don't like it, they'll starve.Jun 23 17:17
schestowitzThey actually need to pay $50 extra to upgrade from Vista to XP.Jun 23 17:17
maxstirnerand it gives MS license to show these as vista sales nonethelessJun 23 17:17
EruaranAs if the likes of HP, Dell and Acer don't know those figures are rubbish.Jun 23 17:19
maxstirnerwin+office are under threat from the free beer linux+ooo desktop, and from the internet services ubiquity trendJun 23 17:19
schestowitz<maxstirner> , someone said this a long time ago. It's double-dipping.Jun 23 17:19
maxstirnerin the case of asus, they really bypassed these distributors you mentioned Eruaran, realised the low-cost imperativeJun 23 17:19
maxstirnerschestowitz, i can't say something original everytime i put my hands on the keyboard unfortunately ;)Jun 23 17:20
maxstirner"When people are not allowed to think and apply knowledge, there’s anarchy"Jun 23 17:22
maxstirnerThinking and applying knowledge freely was definition of anarchy in my book ;)Jun 23 17:22
EruaranI said to a customer a couple of weeks ago, "try Ubuntu for a week, if you don't like it you can come back and buy that copy of XP you already budgeted for"Jun 23 17:23
maxstirner 23 17:23
maxstirnerin fact...Jun 23 17:23
EruaranHe tried UbuntuJun 23 17:23
schestowitz<maxstirner>, no, I meant something else. What Microsoft did is sort of double-dipping. They can claim 3 sales of Windows Vista per PC _that runs XP_Jun 23 17:23
schestowitzIt's absurd. it's sick.Jun 23 17:23
maxstirnerschestowitz, i did understand what you were saying, i was referring to the non-original bit - i definetely would have read that somewhere ;)Jun 23 17:24
EruaranHe didn't come back for XPJun 23 17:24
schestowitzOh, the way I wrote it was perhaps unintentionally seen as rude. I type quickly.Jun 23 17:25
EruaranGenerally we only hear from customers who are unhappy about something.Jun 23 17:25
EruaranIf we don't hear from them, we know they're happy.Jun 23 17:25
maxstirnerschestowitz, the term is often used with this negative connotation, shouldnt worryJun 23 17:25
EruaranI'll let you guys in on a little secretJun 23 17:25
maxstirnerEruaran, if i was win-dependent, i'd panic re: the end of xpJun 23 17:26
maxstirnereven that itwire petition thing screams panic :DJun 23 17:26
maxstirnerEruaran, go on then :PJun 23 17:26
EruaranThe business I work for is a Microsoft gold certified partnerJun 23 17:26
EruaranAnd we're giving Ubuntu to customers.Jun 23 17:26
Eruaran=pJun 23 17:26
maxstirnerWell, good to hear they haven't got you by the balls (contractually) to the extent of prohibiting thisJun 23 17:27
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maxstirneri'm sure there were all sorts of sinister side-agreements to prevent breaking up of the winbundling on new pcs over the past decadeJun 23 17:27
EruaranI've seen a coupleJun 23 17:28
schestowitzGold partner = sold out on paper. It's Microsoft's way on nailing down people.Jun 23 17:28 freesoftware = anarchy? (pdf warning)Jun 23 17:29
schestowitzA bit like MoU, which I wrote about this morning. Or as someone I know told me some days ago, it's a sign of mischief.Jun 23 17:29
EruaranI really don't know what this gold certified partner thing is reallyJun 23 17:30
EruaranWe have no direct dealings with MicrosoftJun 23 17:30
schestowitz<Eruaran>, see the text here: 23 17:30
maxstirnerReally? I would have thought they hand it to you for good sales and you get to market yourself as certified?Jun 23 17:31
schestowitzA lot of big companies that use Linux and also tied to the Microsoft Golden Sellout. It doesn't mean much. It's an obligation made because of suits exchanging money and wine bottles.Jun 23 17:31
Eruaranwe had a hilarious incident one dayJun 23 17:32
maxstirnerso you just get the tag without entering into an explicit contractJun 23 17:32
EruaranOne of our guys called Microsoft to do a 'downgrade' for a customerJun 23 17:33
Eruaranthis indian guy actually asked, 'what is Vista ?'Jun 23 17:33
maxstirner:D reallyJun 23 17:33
Eruarantrue storyJun 23 17:33
Eruaranwe all fell about laughing for about a weekJun 23 17:33
maxstirner:)Jun 23 17:34
schestowitzLonghorn Reborn... ME2 edition.Jun 23 17:34
EruaranEven Longer HornJun 23 17:38
EruaranExtremely Longhorn ME2 RSI EditionJun 23 17:39
schestowitzHeh. They called the project after a bar somewhere in WA.Jun 23 17:39
EruaranWestern Australia ?Jun 23 17:39
maxstirnerwashington state?Jun 23 17:39
schestowitzI've always wondered if the rename was (as I insisted when they announced the "Vista" brand) a case of escapng bad Google signature.Jun 23 17:40
schestowitzThe name "longhorn" was already associated at the time with a horrible and forever-delayed piece of nothing.Jun 23 17:40
maxstirnerbut they always had some idiotic working tag for projects didnt they?Jun 23 17:42
maxstirnerDuring development, the project was codenamed "Whistler"Jun 23 17:42
maxstirnerXPJun 23 17:42
maxstirnerWin7 "Vienna" :DJun 23 17:43
maxstirneri think it'll make them the laughing stock of IT again, perhaps same as for VistaJun 23 17:43
schestowitzYes, indeed.Jun 23 17:43
maxstirnerit now has to endure comparison with a free, stable, performant alternativeJun 23 17:43
maxstirnerwith OS2, which i actually dabbled with back in the day, that was much more obscurist than gnu/lx is nowJun 23 17:44
schestowitzI've watched this quite closely, so I know the /perceived/ 7 (perpetuated by :PC mags) and the reality that has top executives fleeing the company.Jun 23 17:44
EruaranI saw Linus Torvalds talking about Git at Google, I found it mildly amusing when he said there are two software projects named after him, "Linux" and "Git".Jun 23 17:44
schestowitzPoole, Valentine, Gates, Allchin... all gone. All the Windows 'icons'.... gone... I don't even know who runs that division anymore. Mary Jo Foley would know...Jun 23 17:45
maxstirneri think that's really their problem, during win95/98/xp period, there was 'no alternative', nowadays even the 'pc mags' put a distro into their cdromJun 23 17:45
schestowitzWhat? Without a bribery for the CD? That conflicts with their business model. :-)Jun 23 17:46
schestowitzRemember: ""Working behind the scenes to orchestrate "independent" praise of our technology, and damnation of the enemy's, is a key evangelism function during the Slog. "Independent" analyst's report should be issued, praising your technology and damning the competitors (or ignoring them). "Independent" consultants should write columns and articles"Jun 23 17:46
schestowitz"In the face of strong competition, Evangelism's focus may shift immediately to the next version of the same technology, however. Indeed, Phase 1 (Evangelism Starts) for version x+1 may start as soon as this Final Release of version X."Jun 23 17:46
maxstirneryes, i've seen it done though. there are a couple of linux pc mags now, and the pc pro type morons risk getting overtaken on the left. so i do see the odd knoppix on the classic winpc magsJun 23 17:47
maxstirner"scoping Windows 7 development to a three-year timeframe", and that "the specific release date will ultimately be determined by meeting the quality bar."Jun 23 17:47
maxstirnerthe WOW! :DJun 23 17:47
Eruaranhave to goJun 23 17:48
EruaranbblJun 23 17:48
schestowitzThe only WOW is World Of Warcraft. Remember that the Wow slogan is gone now.Jun 23 17:48
maxstirnerciao EruaranJun 23 17:48
schestowitzThe SHowUsTheWow site was shut down and all the volunteer contribution detrayed.Jun 23 17:49
maxstirnergot too embarrassing i suppose :D laughing stockJun 23 17:49
schestowitzSee you soon.Jun 23 17:49
maxstirneri never saw that site, sounds hilariousJun 23 17:49
maxstirnerthey were panicking so much about getting something out the door.. maybe theyll fulfill half their promises for vista on win7..Jun 23 17:50
maxstirnerthat file system comes to mind..Jun 23 17:50
schestowitzI never watched it (I knew about it) until it ws shut down. Bill Gates advertised it. All the boot lickers jumped in.Jun 23 17:50
maxstirnerwinfs!Jun 23 17:51
maxstirner"a feature mentioned by Bill Gates for Blackcomb was "a pervasive typing line that will recognize the sentence that [the user is] typing in."Jun 23 17:51
maxstirnerbit like gnome-do?Jun 23 17:52
schestowitzWell, there's more than just that.Jun 23 17:53
schestowitzKDE4 has some similar stuff.Jun 23 17:53
schestowitzBut it doesn't exist until it's mass-marketed by the "Man Who Brought Computing to the Masses"Jun 23 17:54
maxstirnerdid you see his bbc interview the other day?Jun 23 17:55
maxstirnerthought he was about to claim he invented the internetJun 23 17:55
schestowitzOh oh! 23 17:55
schestowitzWelcome to the Beast. The belly that swallowed Patrick.Jun 23 17:55
maxstirnerredmond centre of IT universe obvJun 23 17:58
maxstirner 23 17:58
schestowitzMicrosoft will become some type of non-software company, at least in terms of focus. This one is hardly worth caring about.Jun 23 18:00
schestowitzTo repeat what I shared in oiic (because it seems important):Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> Microsoft is suddenly inviting all people behindODF to 'pull a Patrick D'Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> Reason: 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> Erwin's last post (he's leaving): "Maybe this invitation has something to do with Microsoft's public "ODF has clearly won" statement at a recent event."Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> Microsoft is trying to grab ODF controlJun 23 18:08
schestowitz<schestowitz> Just as it does with Open Source. Reject the invitation just as Charles did.Jun 23 18:08
maxstirnerthe ribbon is a mini-vista really.. will their integration of ODF be half-hearted, but done so as to prevent isolation on standards compliance?Jun 23 18:23
maxstirnerperhaps msooxml will do the world a favour and just die.. it was never published in the final version IIRCJun 23 18:23
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schestowitzNo, it could take monthjs.Jun 23 18:28
maxstirnerwill see what happens.. odf development is in safe hands i presume?Jun 23 18:29
schestowitzPosted: Jun 23 18:31
schestowitz 23 18:31
schestowitzBTW, your translation of the story about ODF in your country was viewed by many. Even a Sun blog cited it.Jun 23 18:32 "1.2M downloads per week (!!!) on average (since the beginning of 2008) with most recent download numbers having been close to 2M." niceJun 23 18:33
schestowitzYes, it's growing. Was around 1M at the end of last year.Jun 23 18:34
maxstirnerthe ribbon-wow-effect :DJun 23 18:34
schestowitzIt's just a gizmo. "Look! It looks nicer. You should 'upgrade'"Jun 23 18:36
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RogerBhi thereJun 23 19:10
schestowitzHey Roger1Jun 23 19:11
RogerBi flushed open suse for gentoo, happy ^ :PJun 23 19:11
schestowitzIs Gentoo 2008.x still on the right track? I've been tracking it for a while and there was a good rebirth.Jun 23 19:12
RogerBdont knowJun 23 19:12
RogerBi just chrooted on my debian boxJun 23 19:13
RogerBto install itJun 23 19:13
RogerBbecause the provider installer (installer-console) is terribly bad :(Jun 23 19:13
schestowitzHow long were you using/experimenting with OpenSUSE for?Jun 23 19:13
RogerB1 day :PJun 23 19:13
RogerBnever liked open suseJun 23 19:13
RogerBhand probably 1-2 week during 10.3Jun 23 19:14
schestowitzSusan Linton helps the guys hype it up, IMHO.Jun 23 19:14
schestowitz(TaxMachines that is)Jun 23 19:14
schestowitz*TuxJun 23 19:14
RogerBi hope i will hve some internetJun 23 19:14
RogerB;)Jun 23 19:14
RogerBsince when i tryed 2008.0b2 my netowrk was undetectedJun 23 19:14
RogerBits probably a regression bugJun 23 19:15
RogerBsince it was working fine in 2007Jun 23 19:15
schestowitzEthernet?Jun 23 19:15
RogerByep, with the e1000 driverJun 23 19:15
schestowitzit's good to test with a Live CD.Jun 23 19:15
RogerB02:01.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82547EI Gigabit Ethernet Controller [8086:1019]Jun 23 19:15
RogerBdosn<t know if it will workJun 23 19:15
schestowitzI never have a problem with any distro that I installed. Weird, but maybe the PCs I have are far from Linux-hostile.Jun 23 19:16
RogerBIntel chipsetJun 23 19:16
RogerBbasedJun 23 19:16
RogerBnever as any troubleJun 23 19:16
maxstirnersounds bog-standard to me RogerBJun 23 19:16
schestowitzAMD seems to be recommended by the FSF in a sense.Jun 23 19:16
RogerBwowJun 23 19:17
RogerBdidnt take so much time for the linux kernel to compile ;)Jun 23 19:17
schestowitzJust found this new one: 23 19:17
RogerBgentoo is good to understand some basic thing about gnu/linux system ;)Jun 23 19:18
maxstirnerthat's what they say.. i never had the balls to kneel into itJun 23 19:19
schestowitzIsn't LFS a better educational sandbox?Jun 23 19:20
maxstirnerCONFIG_E1000: "Intel(R) PRO/1000 Gigabit Ethernet support"Jun 23 19:20
maxstirner# vendor: 8086 ("Intel Corporation"), device: 1019 ("82547EI Gigabit Ethernet Controller")Jun 23 19:20
cozubgentoo is nice... and easier than slackware :)Jun 23 19:20
maxstirnerLFS also famous isnt it..Jun 23 19:20
cozubI recently rescaped slack -> debian and gentooJun 23 19:20
maxstirnergentoo seems to create a certain breed of geeky compile-zealot ;) the wiki is superb as wellJun 23 19:21
cozubescapedJun 23 19:21
cozublol :)Jun 23 19:21
schestowitzTry to combine LFS with the principles pf GNU... not blobs.Jun 23 19:21
cozubin slack I had to buid my packages too, but "by hand", without the mighty portageJun 23 19:21
maxstirnerdebian on server, ubuntu on desktop for convenienceJun 23 19:21
RogerBmaxstirner : what that mean ^Jun 23 19:22
RogerByou have the same card ^Jun 23 19:22
maxstirnerRogerB, 23 19:22
maxstirnergoogle search, is in kernel driver dbaseJun 23 19:22
maxstirnergot a centos hosted vserver going as well, i just fear&loathe the rpm stuff.. prob just a question of familiarity isnt itJun 23 19:23
RogerBhope i will not *** with grubJun 23 19:23
RogerBi guess nothing is configurer by defaultJun 23 19:24
RogerBlike debianJun 23 19:24
RogerBuh, debian do the default grub configJun 23 19:24
RogerBsryJun 23 19:24
maxstirnerhmmmmmm rolling release hey?Jun 23 19:24
schestowitzIt would be so much easier had OEMs made Free desktops more visible, not just available. I spoke to a friend at the gym on Saturday and he never heard of Linux. Ever.Jun 23 19:27
maxstirnerit does happen. it depends though, when i speak to studenty circles in germany noone batterns an eyelid re: linux these daysJun 23 19:29
maxstirneri've seen some internet cafes on ubuntu in brazil. i asked the admin if people mind, he said they usually dont notice :DJun 23 19:30
schestowitzWell, the guy is almost retired now and he assimilates "cleaning me [sic] computer" with computer  skillsJun 23 19:30
RogerBewww...ubunutJun 23 19:30
RogerBubuntuJun 23 19:30
schestowitzHehe. Seen it before.Jun 23 19:31
maxstirnerme computer heheJun 23 19:31
schestowitzWell, he works at the Casino and uses the PC just for Web surfing, but viruses are an issue and he blindly pays for Norton subs.Jun 23 19:31
RogerBi can<t immagine i just finished installing gentooJun 23 19:31
RogerBsomething must go wrongJun 23 19:32
schestowitzIt's amazing how much money is made in computing owing to ignorance and lack odf choice.Jun 23 19:32
RogerBdev like it when its complicatedJun 23 19:32
RogerBand nothing owrkJun 23 19:32
schestowitzGentoo is popular with devices tool.Jun 23 19:32
schestowitz*too. I'll get examplesJun 23 19:32
maxstirnerits been a lovely decade in computing _for some_Jun 23 19:33
schestowitzA new all-in-one [Gentoo] server: 23 19:34
schestowitzPC factory test tool runs[Gentoo]  Linux: 23 19:34
schestowitzTiny PCs use pico-ITX main board (Gentoo-optimised): 23 19:34
schestowitzEmail marketer harnesses the power of Gentoo: 23 19:34
schestowitzReview: Zonbu, the $99 [Gentoo] Linux Computer: 23 19:34
maxstirneri am expecting more diversity, innovation and cottage industry upon the monopolist's demiseJun 23 19:34
cozubRogerB: try emerge --newuse --deep -u -v world and something certainly will ;)Jun 23 19:34
schestowitzThe above are just examples I have from the _past few months_. The embedded space is a lot bigger than 'the desktop;Jun 23 19:34
RogerBwell, i<ll be backJun 23 19:35
RogerBbyeJun 23 19:35
RogerBoneJun 23 19:35
RogerBdayJun 23 19:35
RogerBif it workJun 23 19:35
*RogerB has quit ("Ex-Chat")Jun 23 19:35
maxstirnerit seems counter-intuitive to use gentoo on embedded due to the recompiles doesnt it?Jun 23 19:35
schestowitzGentoo had him self-destruct. :-DJun 23 19:36
maxstirneri'd intuitively assume debian stable would be preferableJun 23 19:36
schestowitzI assume they build it 'offline', then reflash.Jun 23 19:36
maxstirnerhe's probably doing the reboot and pray, windoze-styleJun 23 19:36
cozubyeahJun 23 19:36
maxstirnerfirmware updates probably limited problem if its a minimal kernelJun 23 19:37
schestowitzRestart app, pray, restart o/s, pray, reinstall app, pray, reinstall os, prayJun 23 19:37
cozubthere's #gentoo-embedded if you're interestedJun 23 19:37
*RogerBacon ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 23 19:37
RogerBaconsomething goes wrongJun 23 19:37
RogerBacongrub isnt even installed in my MBRJun 23 19:37
RogerBacon...Jun 23 19:37
schestowitzThere's obscruity too in devices. More than people imagine run Linux... devices, I mean...Jun 23 19:37
cozubimho gentoo gives you way more configurability, thats why I'd find it useful in embedded worldJun 23 19:37
maxstirnerconcur.. you got the busybox 'scandals' every so often..Jun 23 19:38
cozubyou compile for your arch, with your configure --options etcJun 23 19:38
RogerBaconshould i've done grub-install afther the emerge ?Jun 23 19:39
RogerBacon...Jun 23 19:39
schestowitz"Busybox 'scandals'? Well, a law is a law.Jun 23 19:39
cozubRogerBacon: I'm sticking with lilo... so no idea bout grubJun 23 19:40
RogerBaconoh yeah, lilo :SJun 23 19:41
cozubwhat's wrong with lilo? it's damn simple :)Jun 23 19:42
cozubon my debian and ubuntu boxes, I use grub, as those seem to be grub-biasedJun 23 19:42
RogerBaconyou're so old-schoolJun 23 19:45
RogerBacon;)Jun 23 19:45
*schestowitz never chooses. Just uses whether the distro comes with.Jun 23 19:45
cozublol :) maybeJun 23 19:45
RogerBaconbyeJun 23 19:45
*RogerBacon has quit ("Quitte")Jun 23 19:45
cozubI actually consider returning debian->slack :)Jun 23 19:46
schestowitz12.1 is out. Nice reviews, at least from the loyals (most of its existing userbase)Jun 23 19:48
cozubwell, slack is a pain with upgradesJun 23 20:02
cozub+ many programs I had to compile on my ownJun 23 20:02
cozubon the other hand, if you want to make your own package, it's quite easy with slackJun 23 20:02
schestowitzIf you needn't use much software to begin with, then it's probably not a big issue.Jun 23 20:03
cozubyet "hacking in" unicode support for the console was a bit of a painJun 23 20:05
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellJun 23 20:06
cozubbut I have to say my "hand-made" utf support in slack worked; while I'm having strange utf issues in gnetoo/debian/ubuntu (on VTs)Jun 23 20:06
schestowitzNo UTF? Why not submit this as a patch upstream?Jun 23 20:08
cozubit didn't seem like the utf support was somethng Volkerding would have liked... yet my version was sub-optimal, as I have no idea how do it correctlyJun 23 20:09
cozubthey also ship vanilla mc, which means I had to take a bunch of patches laying around the net and apply them myself, as vanilla mc is uft-useless - unfortunately :-/Jun 23 20:10
cozubthat being said there are some patches I've submitted, just for the record :)Jun 23 20:11
schestowitzI miss Norton Commander days (DOS). 170 MB on my HDD.Jun 23 20:11
cozubI'm running several boxes, my main box is an obsolete laptop (2001)...Jun 23 20:12
cozubeverythiong is quite slow there, so I keep recalling the times when way-worse hw was able to perform betterJun 23 20:12
moparxhey allJun 23 20:14
schestowitzHey, <moparx>. Welcome back.Jun 23 20:15
moparx:)Jun 23 20:15
cozubevening :)Jun 23 20:15
schestowitzI've found some good Linux stories (wins, wins, wins) and I'll post a batch shortly.Jun 23 20:15
moparxSo Microsoft wants the ODF folks to swing by for a visit, eh?Jun 23 20:19
schestowitzAye. Did you see the comment from NDA? I just did. I also let the ODF people know how I see it.. PJ also. Microsoft will respond with the "anti-Microsoft-" label. You can bet on it.Jun 23 20:20
moparx*nod*Jun 23 20:26
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))Jun 23 20:30
schestowitzJust spotted: (List of best Linux blogs).   We're in.Jun 23 20:44
maxstirner-> gym :)Jun 23 21:06
*maxstirner has quit ("Leaving")Jun 23 21:06
*RogerBacon ( has joined #boycottnovellJun 23 21:41
RogerBaconwazzupJun 23 21:42
*RogerBacon has quit ("Quitte")Jun 23 21:53

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