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IRC Log for August 2nd, 2008

Enter the IRC channel now

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lojbanNewbieHey, did you know people have trouble commenting on BN?Aug 02 00:29
lojbanNewbieIt says a server error when I tried to post some commentsAug 02 00:29
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lojbanNewbieHey, did you know people have trouble commenting on BN?Aug 02 02:02
cozubeverybody is asleepAug 02 02:04
cozubbu as schestowitz's client is here, I'm sure he'll notice in the morningAug 02 02:04
cozuband investigate the issueAug 02 02:04
lojbanNewbieHe should really learn to use the /away commandAug 02 02:04
lojbanNewbieIt's really usefulAug 02 02:04
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ZiggyFishInteresting article = Firefox closer to supporting open-source video codec< 02 02:55
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anivarschestowitz: 02 04:46
anivarand vote on 02 04:50
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schestowitzI wish I knew what error lojbanNewbie was getting and why (was asleep). anivar: thanks for the pointer.Aug 02 06:05
anivarschestowitz:  see this article CP chandrasekhar is a left thinker . A Very seriously to be noted point in it : Microsoft and SAP registered revenue growth of 29 and 104 percent respectively in the domestic market in 2007-08.Aug 02 06:31
anivar The protest against the proprietary regime was somehow reduced to Microsoft whereas SAP is also registering significant advancementAug 02 06:31
schestowitzSAP and Microsoft are close. Microsoft almost bought them.Aug 02 06:33
anivarschestowitz:  yeaAug 02 06:34
anivarschestowitz: Even in Kerala they are trying to spread SAP in governance through some govt institutionsAug 02 06:40
schestowitzMicrosoft too tried some things there, based on what I've read. They are fighting now. It's a losing battle perhaps.Aug 02 06:42
anivarThe sad thing is Free software activists here not addressed  this field well.Aug 02 06:42
schestowitzWhat can be done to raise awareness of it?Aug 02 06:42
anivarThe issues are a mix of politics and power . the sad thing the head of major SAP spreading institution is the son of  top politician in left party (which is currently on rule). This politician is very much helpful & instrumental  in promoting free software in governance. so I think people colse to FSFI dont want to address itAug 02 06:46
anivarclose to -- ^^ typoAug 02 06:48
anivarlobbying tacticsAug 02 06:48
anivarschestowitz:Aug 02 06:51
schestowitzHmmmm... there's a collision of interests there. Isn't it yet forbidden to procure non-Free software for government use?Aug 02 06:52
anivarthe issue here is there is a good Free Software Policy. but dont have a strong implimentation planAug 02 06:53
anivarIt happens with most of the people friendly policies here . bureaucrats always prevent it.Aug 02 06:58
anivarThere is such plan existsAug 02 06:58
schestowitzIt sounds typical. Change takes more work than running the old circus.Aug 02 06:59
schestowitzThe thing to do is to identify those that stand in the way or don't participate.Aug 02 06:59
anivarschestowitz: But Govt know how to make a public image through Free Software . But in some initiatives like Local language computer promotion they are including GNU/Linux as well as windows. And on state funded e-literacy programme proprietary software (pirated :-) ) is widely used (Akshaya project) . Recently we pushed FSF India to address some new issues in IT@school project. I hope you alread read FSFI's open letter to Education minister of keralaAug 02 07:02
anivar 02 07:03
schestowitzThanks. Yes, Brazil too uses some promises like this for public image. There's need for feet-dragging.Aug 02 07:04
schestowitzI see that Bruce has just published in the same place as me: Does he know this publication has Microsoft ads now? I was going to publish a KDE4 review, but changed my minds after they had put those ads up.Aug 02 07:05
anivarit is a usual issue in most of the countries in Global south.Aug 02 07:05
schestowitzThere are signs of change nonetheless. It's just never as fast as promised.Aug 02 07:06
anivaricrosoft ads?  think it is google ads. They are not blocking microsoft AdsAug 02 07:07
anivarin itAug 02 07:07
schestowitz "Gates may be gone, but the walls and bars of proprietary software he helped create remain, for now. Dismantling them is up to us. "Aug 02 07:07
anivarnice quoteAug 02 07:07
schestowitzNo, about 1/3 of the page is Microsoft ads.Aug 02 07:08
schestowitzIn fact, all my older articles there are now 'decorated' with Microsoft brainwash.Aug 02 07:08
schestowitzEven my interview with RMS and PJ.Aug 02 07:08
anivarschestowitz:  I noticed :-) it was excellentAug 02 07:09
schestowitzI don't think I'll publish there though -- for now. It's like selling out. I wonder if Bruce knew about the ads. I notice he made Slashdot's FPAug 02 07:10
schestowitzPJ wrote: "Since Steve Ballmer has said that is what Microsoft wants, for "all Open Source innovation [to] happen on top of Windows", subject to paying for patent licenses, I'd say that's a safe guess as to at least one motivation."Aug 02 07:11
schestowitzBig discussion @ I'm pleased that he published this after complaining about the publishers (same with me...  they are afraid of Microsoft criticism). The Apache folks tried to accuse BN of misinterpreting. Now it's stated in Slashdot that it's an anti-Linux deal, just as I said immediately after they had taken the money. Apache gave up cheaply.. for just 100k.Aug 02 07:16
schestowitzanivar: see if you like this one: 02 07:18
anivargood discussion in slashdot. Your criticism is well pointedAug 02 07:20
schestowitzIt's interesting that the anti-BN crowd in FSDaily has sort of gone away now. Earlier I saw someone pressuring Dana Blakenhorn not to link to us. It's the same someone who also left a comment in 02 07:23
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schestowitzanivar: you'll probably want to read this later: BTW, Perens has just mailed me back. He too isn't a fan of the publication.Aug 02 09:04
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schestowitzHi, ZiggyFish. Thanks for the link you posted earlier. I'll write about the Ogg/patent situation later.Aug 02 09:19
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meebeyschestowitz: reading all your comments here, I have more the feeling you are pro opensource, contra proprietary, but why is the page called boycottnovell then? boycottmicrosoft or whatever seem to fit better, or did I miss anything?Aug 02 10:10
schestowitzMicrosoft makes allies with companies that it might acquire one day.Aug 02 10:11
schestowitzNovell was among the first companies although there are prior examples of sponsorships going as far back as 2005 (at least).Zend is one example, but far less severe an example than Novell.Aug 02 10:12
schestowitzI didn't choose the site's name (would probably call it "<something> watch"). It's more of a boycott of Microsoft deals. In months/years to come we'll see more of them. It's trying to buy the obedience of its many rivals, not just in FOSS.Aug 02 10:14
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kentma1schestowitz: I just did a quick google on /me and linux, and discovered that gary stewart, under the nym of moshe, has been spreading his sh1t about me everywhere.  I'd no idea I was so influential.Aug 02 10:39
schestowitz:-)Aug 02 10:40
schestowitzIt's becoming known that you can't trust Goolgling on $name. It makes the news a lot these days.Aug 02 10:40
schestowitz 02 10:40
anivarmeebey: novell is the port 25  for Microsoft to the world of Free SoftwareAug 02 10:41
kentma1 02 10:41
schestowitz"The unmasking of the posters marks a milestone in a rare legal challenge to the norms of online commenting, where arguments live on for years in search-engine results and where reputations can be sullied nearly irreparably by anyone with a grudge, a laptop and a WiFi connection…"Aug 02 10:41
schestowitz"Both women tried in vain to persuade the administrators of the site to remove the threads, according to the lawsuit. But then the story of the cyber-harassment hit the front page of The Washington Post, and the law school trolls became fodder for cable news shows. Soon after, the female law students, with help from Stanford and Yale law professors, filed the federal lawsuit in June 2007 seeking hundreds of thousands Aug 02 10:41
schestowitzof dollars in damages."Aug 02 10:41
schestowitz"The Jane Doe plaintiffs contend that the postings about them became etched into the first page of search engine results on their names, costing them prestigious jobs, infecting their relationships with friends and family, and even forcing one to stop going to the gym for fear of stalkers…"Aug 02 10:41
kentma1look at that - hadron and gary have been posting sh1t there - shedloads of it.  inlcludes you, Peter K and more.Aug 02 10:41
schestowitzI gotta run now, kentma1. Having lunch with a mate.Aug 02 10:41
kentma1schestowitz: have fun!Aug 02 10:42
schestowitzWill carry on where we left off.Aug 02 10:42
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kentma1schestowitz: I'd emailed one of the sites to ask them to remove the material.  I'll try to get the rest of them over time.Aug 02 12:01
kentma1I've.Aug 02 12:09
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schestowitzkentma1: I got it. Are you there?Aug 02 13:53
meebeyschestowitz: hm ic, thanks for your replyAug 02 14:18
meebeyschestowitz: I fully agree that microsoft and companies that cooperate with them should be "watched" how it has influence to FOSSAug 02 14:19
meebeyschestowitz: as there are for sure parts in microsoft that wants to "heal" the "cancer"Aug 02 14:19
meebeytranslated: eliminate possible competition that causes money going less into microsofts directionAug 02 14:20
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schestowitzThey pay the competition to stop competing. It's common, but they find ways to escape regulators (e.g. use Citrix to buy XenSource).Aug 02 14:23
meebeyor oracle buying innodb...Aug 02 14:24
meebeyI think this issue is not just limited to microsoft though, all big companies are trying and doing it everyday :(Aug 02 14:24
meebeyblame capitalism... IMHOAug 02 14:24
meebeyso it boils down to free software developed by a community or company and proprietary software...Aug 02 14:25
schestowitzHave you read my post about Oracle?Aug 02 14:25
meebeydont think so, never read anything on boycottnovell till I found by accident a post related to my FOSS work ;)Aug 02 14:26
schestowitzWhich project? By the way, here is the one about Oracle and Innodb (it's part of a broader thing): 02 14:27
meebeyand the posts reads alot like FUD, as it likes to only uses pieces of references to proove the pointAug 02 14:27
meebeyschestowitz: about debianAug 02 14:28
schestowitzAnd Mono?Aug 02 14:28
meebeyschestowitz: exactlyAug 02 14:28
schestowitzI know of some people in Debian who worry about Mono. Some people, on the other hand, support Mono.Aug 02 14:28
schestowitzI wish to share with you this, which I will write about later:Aug 02 14:29
meebeywell the post was based on a sentence written by a single debian developer referencing to technical limitation (haddisk space)Aug 02 14:29
schestowitzI asked Mark S. about Mono some months ago. He still thinks that only the trolls are the problem. PJ wrote: "Shuttleworth defends MONO</a>said in reply to this</a> was: "<em>What Shuttleworth may not understand is that a patent troll can be a proxy for someone else who does have something to lose."Aug 02 14:29
schestowitz 02 14:29
meebeybut was used out of context to support a generic statement that is not correct and was never made by debianAug 02 14:29
meebeyI have no business in ubuntu, so can't say anything about that oneAug 02 14:30
schestowitzI didn't know the context in Debian sufficiently well.Aug 02 14:30
schestowitzI latched onto the part which called it controversial and names it among the reasons for leaving it out from CD1.Aug 02 14:31
meebeymono is part of the main debian system, the bugreport was to get the default debian install synchronized with the gnome default packages (from the project)Aug 02 14:31
meebeyand it was _requested_ to add tomboy :) but was not done as it adds extra 50MB to the default debian install for a single applicationAug 02 14:31
meebeyand I am trying to get that fixe, by tuning the packages further to get tomboy by default inAug 02 14:32
schestowitzGNOME is gradually getting entwined more and more with what Microsoft wants in it. This is troubling for several reasons.Aug 02 14:32
kentma1schestowitz: hi roy - her enowAug 02 14:36
kentma1here now.Aug 02 14:36
schestowitzkentma1: I received a copy.Aug 02 14:36
kentma1good.  I wondered about a proper cc, but wasn't sure.  Maybe I should've done.Aug 02 14:37
schestowitzI had a couple of mates over an hour ago too and I showed them examples of the slander. I later did q quick filter on cola with my name to show them hundreds of headline with my name in them. All were insults, of course. Are you getting trouble over this? Flak from collagues?Aug 02 14:37
schestowitz*colleaguesAug 02 14:37
kentma1Anyway, having read their T&Cs, I hope there'll be no problem removing it.Aug 02 14:37
kentma1No sign of flak, but someone did mention it to me recently.  You can hardly miss it - the stalking campaign is massive.Aug 02 14:38
schestowitzkentma1: you're wasting your time, IMHO. It's like fighting malaria by staying in the shade..Aug 02 14:38
kentma1I can't really leave it - the top hit for "mark kent linux" is a load of quite incorrect abuse and assertions from our trolls.Aug 02 14:39
schestowitzPJ had similar things done to her (even spy coming to her house). A year ago she suggested I collect evidence and try to request removal of slanderous content, but where does one start?Aug 02 14:39
schestowitzShe uses a nice analogy about a baby and a diaper and how you need to take care of a dirty diaper because the baby's mess gets all over the room.Aug 02 14:39
kentma1I wasn't going to go on this hard, just pick items from time to time, the ones which come up high in the rankings, and inform the owners of the sites.  In most cases, I would think that they'll remove the stuff.Aug 02 14:40
kentma1George had several successes with LARTS, and in this case, it's easier because they're just websites.Aug 02 14:40
schestowitzAfter a while I took it for granted. Back in 2006 when the 'castration' libel began I was shocked an angered, but now I realise that this is a distraction.Aug 02 14:41
kentma1I know why they're doing it, and this is not my major focus, but as a background activity, if I can reduce the top-hits, then it's a good thing.Aug 02 14:41
kentma1To be honest, I had no idea that I was this dangerous to Microsoft.Aug 02 14:41
schestowitzLook at it this way: people find it important to get people not to listen to you. They can't kill the message, so they shoot the messenger.Aug 02 14:41
kentma1or that Microsoft would feel that they had to respond to what I was saying in such a way.Aug 02 14:42
schestowitzRMS had it done to him for _ages_. They always target his appearance and stuff.Aug 02 14:42
kentma1I know... it's sad, isn't it?  Still, I can hardly claim to be the next RMS.Aug 02 14:42
kentma1Maybe I should grow a beard.  Or a bear.  :-)Aug 02 14:42
schestowitzHoward Anderson Framingham. Founder of The Yankee Group (2007): “Open source is not a movement; it’s a religion. It is a set of principles and practices that let everyone share non-existent or semi-existent intellectual property. Remember the Communist Manifesto: “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” It is this generation’s Woodstock.”Aug 02 14:42
schestowitzWell, as I said before, the digests have huge reach.Aug 02 14:43
kentma1I know all that.  I think I was just surprised at the level of attack... I shouldn't have been, I know...Aug 02 14:43
kentma1I really wonder how these people ever sleep at night.Aug 02 14:44
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schestowitzThey always try to underestimate and to downplay the impact in order to demoraieis and drive away those who call for change or say the truth.Aug 02 14:44
schestowitzI think they sleep pretty well. They kit someone's stock. They have poor ethics.Aug 02 14:44
kentma1Or, perhaps, none at all.  don't worry, I shall not be silenced!Aug 02 14:45
schestowitzI hardly ever see a Munchkin with a real name and I hardly ever see one attacked. The Iowa docs make it very evident that Microsoft does this sort of stuff.Aug 02 14:45
schestowitzIn fact, Glyn Moody cited that stuff about the newsgroups last week. Wait, I'll find it...Aug 02 14:45
kentma1they don't use real names...Aug 02 14:45
schestowitzHere: And this comes from one who writes for some of the world's big papers.Aug 02 14:46
schestowitzI was getting the impression that nessunu and some others took a break after people posted their full details, which I consider to be a form of a threat... like holding up a skull in the more barbarian sense.Aug 02 14:47
kentma1This is precisely why I've avoided posting under anything other than my real name.  I cannot be "outed", because I am who I say I am.Aug 02 14:47
kentma1The GM item is good, btw.Aug 02 14:48
schestowitzYet people get attacked either way. Anonymity is a dream. Seen what Google said early this week about privacy?Aug 02 14:48
kentma1no?Aug 02 14:48
schestowitzIt turns out that Scott McNealy said that many years ago, too. Last week I posted a video of Novell's CEO (Schmidt at the time) saying that same thing in an interviewAug 02 14:48
kentma1saying what, sorry?Aug 02 14:49
schestowitzHold on.Aug 02 14:49
*kentma1 holds onAug 02 14:49
schestowitzHere is Schmidt: 02 14:49
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schestowitzThere is even an Ogg version (I never link to YouTube without accommodating FOSS)Aug 02 14:50
schestowitzSame man, different company (Google): 02 14:50
kentma1ahhh, gotcha.  I understand what you mean.Aug 02 14:51
schestowitzEven Carla Schroeder (LT editor) wrote about it last night in her weekly column. Google is the SaaS issue and the privacy issue (cars going round and round, picturing everything, then getting sued). They also got sued by an Italian paper and other such things.Aug 02 14:51
kentma1Also, I really do understand what google are driving at, and it goes like this:  "if all information is public, then it will never be possible to "out" anything, therefore, it's desirable that all information is public".Aug 02 14:52
kentma1I suspect that, in a few generations down the road, then these kinds of "privacy" issues might well start to evaporate, however, I think that we'll always be stuck with the kind of politics which wants to control peoples' sex-lives, which means that there'll always be room for a 'scandal' - the meat and drink of the tabloids.Aug 02 14:54
schestowitzYes, exactly. To say more:Aug 02 14:54
schestowitzThe notion of many things like copyrights assume no abundance of knowledge. Many people these days are lazy enough to just google some information instead of turning to peer-review trade press and journals. This means that copyrights has its place increasingly as a niche.Aug 02 14:55
schestowitzThe music industry suffers from similar type of change, which it _COMBATS_ by eliminating means like medium... P2P. Aug 02 14:56
schestowitzNewspaper, likewise, are threatened by blogs and Google News. They sue Google because people no longer need the paper. People bypassed them using quantity (questionable over quality)Aug 02 14:56
kentma1part of the problem is that "googling" is effective, probably 60% of the time or more, for getting what most people need quickly.  As you say, though, the lack of review of such information is a major problem.Aug 02 14:56
schestowitzGoogle (well, search engines) work like our brains, hence you can ask questions and address curiosity.Aug 02 14:57
kentma1Anyway, I've decided that I need to do my blogging thing a bit more regularly in order to combat the sh1te that Microsoft are putting around about me.Aug 02 14:57
schestowitzMicrosoft's high management too realised the importance of search global, not localised HDD search), but did nothing about it. To knowledge workers, info  is more important than tools (like dishes and food).Aug 02 14:58
kentma1in fact, you could say that google is one of the tools.Aug 02 14:58
schestowitzI have a wealth of stuff to keep the slander in the lower ranks, surpassing the noise.Aug 02 14:59
schestowitzDid you know that you get in page 1 of Google if you search for "Novell"?Aug 02 14:59
kentma1I wonder if I should start putting the digests onto my blog site.  That might service to combat some slander?Aug 02 14:59
kentma1does it?  Hehe... no wonder we're under fire.Aug 02 14:59
schestowitzA lot of people who search Google for "Novell" end up in "Boycott Noovell"Aug 02 14:59
schestowitzWell, Novell tries not to talk about us too much.Aug 02 15:00
kentma1oh year, you're right - it's on page 1Aug 02 15:01
kentma1heheAug 02 15:01
schestowitzIt believes that ignoring is better, which is probably true. But I caught them asking journos not to 'feed' us and I also had them answer our questions. The damage done to them using information alone is immense because people talk to other people, who then blog based on what we write and pass on these messages to other readers.Aug 02 15:01
kentma1I think that they're right to ignore, to be honest.  Fact is, though, they shouldn't have accepted the MS money in the first place.Aug 02 15:02
schestowitzIn Google, about a year ago we were result number 7, IIRC. When I pointed this out, the Novell folks left comments in the site. That's when you know you're on the right topic.Aug 02 15:02
kentma1do you think I should put the digests on the blog page?Aug 02 15:02
schestowitzUnless the digests contain your name at the top (headline or repeated words), then it can't 'cleanse' too effectively. The trolls intentionally put names in subject lines, which then become headlines.Aug 02 15:03
kentma1Maybe I should changer the digest introductory blurb a little more.Aug 02 15:04
kentma1After all, without hits... it's no use.Aug 02 15:04
schestowitzGary Stewart repeats people's full names in the messages in order to saturate that and have the messages assigned to specific search results. It's all very much targetted. They are on a mission, which is to throw slime not only at FOSS but also at those who defend it and may be listened to.Aug 02 15:04
kentma1I know how it works - in fact, I wrote about this quite eloquently on my Joe Barr obit!Aug 02 15:05
kentma1:-)Aug 02 15:05
schestowitzDoug just sent me this minutes ago:Aug 02 15:05
kentma1um?Aug 02 15:05
schestowitz"Get a load of this bumf, they compare sudo to UAC, without any reference to other Linux security tools. They eronously claim that adding multiple users or groups with restricted access, under Linux isn't possible using sudo. "Aug 02 15:06
schestowitz"# User privilege specificationAug 02 15:06
schestowitz Aug 02 15:06
schestowitzroot ALL=(ALL) ALLAug 02 15:06
schestowitz Aug 02 15:06
schestowitzstandard.user ALL=(root) /usr/bin/aptitude, /usr/bin/apt-get" ... That black art of bogus 'research'.Aug 02 15:06
schestowitzI suggest you watch this news comment s about fake 'studies' too: (posted hours ago)Aug 02 15:07
kentma1Microsoft really don't care about lying, do they?Aug 02 15:08
schestowitzAnd you probably remember that Brumfield character, which is now throwing strong accusations along with some nyms that never before existed on Google's index: (they try to get Novell involved in this discussion)Aug 02 15:08
schestowitzMicrosoft built and sustained itself using lies and betrayal. I did not say so. Ask people who wrote Windows books and were disgusted by Microsoft's behaviour (Scott Foulton for example)Aug 02 15:09
schestowitzDough just send me this (followup): "Take carefull note of the sudo video. Notice how he has to logout and log back in again to add a user to the sudo group. Not necessary, he could have logged in as root from the bash shell, or <ctrl><alt><F1> to get a bash screen."Aug 02 15:10
kentma1tj brumfield is one of the existing munchkin crowd.  It's just possible that your site has been upgraded to "slashdot" status, say, so you're getting the next grade of microsoft troll, up from the gary stewarts, erik Funkenbushes and timmy smiths.Aug 02 15:14
schestowitzLemmie Google (yes, lowercase possible here too) that name.Aug 02 15:14
schestowitzBTW, just found this about BECTA: 02 15:15
schestowitzWhat I found odd about  brumfield is that the E-mail is   enderandrew@gmail.comAug 02 15:16
schestowitzIt sounds like another name, so is the latter fictitious (I haven't checked yet). The other thing is the personal relationship with Novell seniors (Meeks in this case), who I assume are also friends with Microsoft. Then there's the 'threat' that they'll complaint about us to Linux Today.Aug 02 15:17
schestowitzActually, the only comment in Linux Today /praises/ this article and recommends that everyone reads it. The hit count on that LT page is very high, so people were genuinely interested (it's usually the case).Aug 02 15:18
schestowitzOh, here's the guy: (this aligns also with the E-mail addres)Aug 02 15:19
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kentma1okay, i've left a remark :-)Aug 02 15:23
schestowitzWhere?Aug 02 15:23
kentma1on bnAug 02 15:23
schestowitzBTW, brand value is where slander is more serious than personal attacks.Aug 02 15:23
schestowitzI had companies contacting me after I had written something critical about them (which turned out to have become 'too' viisible).Aug 02 15:24
kentma1Oh, they will, I'm sure.Aug 02 15:24
schestowitzThat's where not paranoia and personal reputation are affected; that's where business sufers.Aug 02 15:24
kentma1The TJB site shows no interest at all in foss - something I've noted in my remark.  So, either it's a nym-shift, or a lie.Aug 02 15:26
kentma1nym-steal, I mean.Aug 02 15:26
kentma1Either way, I think he's been "got".Aug 02 15:26
schestowitzHmmm.. I'm not sure. I think it's him though. Aug 02 15:27
*schestowitz looks at kentma1's commentAug 02 15:27
schestowitzI think it's really him though. SUSE has fans in the south-east (near Utah) and in Germany and this one seems to make sense. A lot of the abusive comments I actually receive   from Germany where the developers are located./Aug 02 15:29
kentma1That's fine, but if it's really him, then his "foss good name" argument is weakened considerably by the fact that his website is 100% about proprietary stuff.  100%Aug 02 15:33
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schestowitzI think he's a guest there.Aug 02 15:35
schestowitzBTW, PJ seems to have exposed a possible shill: "Do you, by any chance, remember the name Victor Raisys? He was a technology analyst at Soundview Technology Group, who predicted difficulties for Linux when the SCO litigation began in 2003. "Aug 02 15:35
lojbanNewbieschestowitzAug 02 15:35
schestowitzShe sticks to the same strategy as me: ""I'm a simple soul, and while I realize that odd coincidences do happen in life, I still can't help but notice a man, whose job at Microsoft was to figure out how to stop Linux, showing up at Soundview just when the SCO litigation began,"Aug 02 15:36
schestowitz"where he mirrored the Microsoft position regarding the threat to Linux SCO represented and dissing Red Hat. In the end, what it all means I'll have to leave to others. My role is research, which I present with links so you can verify and reach your own conclusions. "Aug 02 15:36
schestowitzHey, lojbanNewbie, what's up?Aug 02 15:36
schestowitzThis is also a good comment:Aug 02 15:36
schestowitz 02 15:36
lojbanNewbieI couldn't post at BNAug 02 15:36
schestowitz"Microsoft has seeded employees throughout industry - and occasionally that placement has been blatant - as brought to light in the MA-OOXML and ISO down-your-throats debacle."Aug 02 15:36
lojbanNewbieIs it fixed now?Aug 02 15:36
schestowitz"In propagandist positioning, this tendency has been particularly strong - recall MoG [Maureen O'Gara] and her husband and their transparency concerning towing the Microsoft barge down its canal."Aug 02 15:36
schestowitzOh, thanks for pointing that out.Aug 02 15:38
lojbanNewbieNo problemAug 02 15:38
schestowitzI wanted to hear from you about the nature of the error. I checked the logs but nothing came up. What did it say when you tried? JS enabled?Aug 02 15:38
schestowitzI haven't heard about such an issue for about a year and I worried very much that we might be losing good comments.Aug 02 15:39
lojbanNewbieJS is enabled, it says something along the lines of server is missingAug 02 15:39
lojbanNewbieIt posts a whole lot of sqlAug 02 15:39
lojbanNewbiecodeAug 02 15:39
schestowitzThat MySQL server ran away in the past, but going back and retrying typically resolved this the second time around. How many times did you try? Got a copy so that I can post it?Aug 02 15:40
lojbanNewbie3 times a few hours agoAug 02 15:40
lojbanNewbieI lost the postAug 02 15:40
lojbanNewbieI'll have to rewrite itAug 02 15:40
schestowitzSame comment 3 times?Aug 02 15:40
lojbanNewbieyes.Aug 02 15:40
schestowitzSorry about that. Thanks for letting me know.Aug 02 15:40
lojbanNewbieI refreshed and copy/pastedAug 02 15:40
schestowitzI know the host set limits on our account after it had banged on the server with heavy loads.Aug 02 15:41
lojbanNewbieThat may be the culpritAug 02 15:41
schestowitzI sometimes get errors on the admin side ever since they applied the changes.Aug 02 15:41
schestowitzWe migth have to upgrade the account soon, as well. The bandwidth limits are approached (60 gigs/month)Aug 02 15:42
lojbanNewbieYou could try slimming the pages a bitAug 02 15:43
lojbanNewbieThere is a huge list of words on every single pageAug 02 15:43
schestowitzIt's the graphics that take up a lot of that volume. CSS and all...Aug 02 15:44
schestowitzTry a test comment to see if it works now. I'd love to know what you tried to say.Aug 02 15:44
schestowitzIt saddened me to wake up this morning only yo find out (in IRC) that some legitimate comment got chewedAug 02 15:44
lojbanNewbieIt took me about 15 mins to write it. I'll just comment on a different article insteadAug 02 15:45
*_Doug (n=emacsuse@ has joined #boycottnovellAug 02 15:45
_DougHi there computer nerds .. :)Aug 02 15:46
lojbanNewbieIt's _Doug!!!Aug 02 15:46
schestowitzHeh. Yeah.Aug 02 15:47
_DougIt is ...Aug 02 15:47
schestowitzThat's an interesting nick. Is it emacSUSE or emacsUser?Aug 02 15:47
_Dougemacs userAug 02 15:47
schestowitzIt's truncated.Aug 02 15:48
_Dougemacs the word processor that thinks it's an OS ..Aug 02 15:48
schestowitzHave you see the GL article about  Victor RaisysAug 02 15:49
schestowitz*Seen?Aug 02 15:49
_DougYea, interesting ..Aug 02 15:49
lojbanNewbielater schestowitz. I'm off to comment on a different article.Aug 02 15:50
*lojbanNewbie (n=userrr@ has left #boycottnovell ("USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST")Aug 02 15:50
_DougIt seems to be MSs long term strategy, get people to leave MS, join some potential competitor and then bend the company to Microsofts way, they go back to MS.Aug 02 15:50
schestowitzYes.Aug 02 15:51
_DougSee the new head of BBC media is an ex-microsoftieAug 02 15:51
_DougGuess what innovative crapware they are goign to host their media on .. :)Aug 02 15:51
schestowitzSee this one: 02 15:51
schestowitzBrand-new example at the bottom (Juniper). It's like... (keywords: scientology delegate  jihad )Aug 02 15:52
_DougAh, I see ..Aug 02 15:55
_Dougback in five minutes ..Aug 02 15:57
_DougBack again .. hello ...Aug 02 16:14
schestowitzWhat have you been up to? Cup of tea with the g/f?Aug 02 16:15
*MalfermitaKodo ( has joined #boycottnovellAug 02 16:15
schestowitzHi, MalfermitaKodo Aug 02 16:15
MalfermitaKodoheya!Aug 02 16:16
_DougCuriously enough, she wants to come visit for tea :)Aug 02 16:16
schestowitzWill she bring sugar?Aug 02 16:16
_DougI see we have an openSUSE user here ..Aug 02 16:17
MalfermitaKodowe do?Aug 02 16:17
_DougbenJImanAug 02 16:18
MalfermitaKodoohAug 02 16:18
MalfermitaKodomaybe not by choiceAug 02 16:18
_DougI got thrown off the forum ..Aug 02 16:18
MalfermitaKodowell, I named one of my plushed Tuxen openSUSEAug 02 16:18
MalfermitaKodo(becaue she is as slim as the distro)Aug 02 16:19
benJIman€¬_€¬Aug 02 16:19
schestowitz_Doug: when? Who by?Aug 02 16:19
_DougOne of the moderatorsAug 02 16:19
_DougThey even blocked the IP address ..Aug 02 16:20
schestowitzbenJIman: are you the Ben who posted in COLA briefly?Aug 02 16:21
benJImanCOLA?Aug 02 16:22
schestowitzadvocacy newsgroup?Aug 02 16:22
schestowitzLinux.advocacy?Aug 02 16:22
benJImanNo.Aug 02 16:23
schestowitzI've just spotted a libelous comment posted some months agp:Aug 02 16:23
schestowitz The one from "February 05, 2008" sounds like it's almost for sure one of the Microsoft Munchkins. They use other sites too to poison with their lies.Aug 02 16:24
benJImanNothing libelous there.Aug 02 16:26
benJImanNo falsifiable statements, only opinion.Aug 02 16:27
schestowitzCare to elaborate? I make not even a penny from this. I heard that chorus before. I think I know who wrote it.Aug 02 16:27
benJImanDo you not even get adverts from the adverts for microsoft software on your site?Aug 02 16:27
_DougIt's just *them* flinging manure ..Aug 02 16:28
benJIman*money fromAug 02 16:28
schestowitzbenJIman: what do you mean? By the way, Shane manages the site and he says that ads pay $50 a month (I never see any of it). Hosting is less expensive than that.Aug 02 16:29
benJImanIt's just amusing when the adverts at the top happen to be for microsoft stuff, when the articles are slating microsoft.Aug 02 16:29
schestowitzThe accusation about ads flew before and I refused to get even a penny for it because there's no trust with money involved; besides, I was against them, just like the name of the site (I never like it).Aug 02 16:30
_DougSee the O'Gara shill at it again 02 16:31
schestowitzbenJIman: are there still Microsoft ads? Shane said he would block them. I thought he had stopped it already.Aug 02 16:31
benJImanschestowitz: I'm not sure, last time I saw one was about a month ago, I havn't been reading the articles so much since you stopped putting the full thing in the rss feed.Aug 02 16:32
schestowitzYes, someone reported it a month or so ago (maybe two) and I told Shane (again) that he need to add the MS domains to the 'banfile' in AdSense (there's a list for exclusion).Aug 02 16:32
*MalfermitaKodo ( has left #boycottnovellAug 02 16:32
schestowitzThe feeds have not changed. Shane too has always posted snippets rather than summaries.Aug 02 16:33
benJIman_Doug: That article has so many misspellings of "cheque" it's quite painful to read.Aug 02 16:33
schestowitz1000 article report a setback for SCO, but spin d0ct0r MoG spins it.Aug 02 16:34
schestowitz*100 (or so) articlesAug 02 16:34
schestowitz_Doug: how do you know benJIman?Aug 02 16:35
_DougI don't ..Aug 02 16:35
benJIman_Doug: btw lots of openSUSE people follow boycottnovell, it's highly entertaining.Aug 02 16:35
_DougWho, how do you know ?Aug 02 16:36
schestowitzI thought you were that Benjamin who appeared out of the blue at the end of 2007 and defended me for weeks in various sites/forums.Aug 02 16:36
schestowitzBTW, I'll post a report about OpenSUSE later. I got totally distracted today by some things I did.Aug 02 16:37
_DougNot I, ..Aug 02 16:37
benJIman_Doug: Articles are often discussed in the openSUSE IRC channels.Aug 02 16:38
schestowitz:-(Aug 02 16:38
_DougI've looked at the forum, pretty unoccupied ..Aug 02 16:39
_DougI think they've all moved to Ubuntu .. :oAug 02 16:39
benJImanThe forum is very new, not many people registered yet.Aug 02 16:39
schestowitzThe unified one?Aug 02 16:40
benJImanYes, they never managed to migrate accounts from the old ones.Aug 02 16:40
schestowitzBTW, all my links to SUSEForums broke. Nice work on redirs...Aug 02 16:40
schestowitzOpenSUSE is a solid distro, so I hope the core hackers will one day pry it off Novell's arm and do their things independently of this contract from Hell.Aug 02 16:41
benJImanThey basically ended up with no migration at all, after spending over a year setting up the new forum because everything had to be migrated.Aug 02 16:41
benJImanI don't really know what you mean by that, you want a distro with all Novell's contributions removed? No linux distribution is free from novell contributions.Aug 02 16:43
_DougNo, he means the MS covenant.Aug 02 16:43
schestowitzYes.Aug 02 16:44
_DougYou can't sell your own work, Novell owns all your contributions, you can't even work on it in company time.!Aug 02 16:44
_DougIt's been totally de-GPLed ..Aug 02 16:44
_DougI am now a total believer in Yoper, small and fast. I like the way they have the error msgs say something meaningfull.Aug 02 16:45
schestowitzIt's rather ironic that German developers (some volunteers) work under some deal that calls them "hobbyists" or "thieves" under US law (Novell is in MA) which permits ownership of maths.Aug 02 16:45
_DougAnd you get to talk directly with the developers, not a call center in India ..Aug 02 16:45
benJImanContributors have not signed any such agreement.Aug 02 16:45
schestowitzPerhaps it is out failure for not having communicated clearly how Novell had abused its roots (taking, but giving only as long as you buy Microsoft/Novell-protected boxes).Aug 02 16:46
_DougWell, we don't know, as to ask the question is to be barrred from the forum ..Aug 02 16:46
benJIman_Doug: What do you mean by de-gpled?Aug 02 16:46
_DougThere is no legal way for a downstream developer to commercialise his own contributions. YOu don't have the freedom to do that, unlike the GPL.Aug 02 16:47
schestowitzGPLv2d, with loophole. Put differently, it's fine, you can get the Freedoms (as described in GPLv2), but you can be sued for distributing or get your neighbour in trouble.Aug 02 16:47
benJImanNovell do not require copyright assignment for contributing to openSUSE. You can do whatever you want with your own work. And everything except the non-oss repository is OSI compliant licensed.Aug 02 16:47
benJIman_Doug: That is not correct.Aug 02 16:48
_DougI'm sorry, but I don't agree, Wait and I'll get a link to the covenant ..Aug 02 16:48
benJImanThe legalities are much the same as with any other distribution in fact.Aug 02 16:48
benJImanThe branding is trademarked, other than that you can do what you want.Aug 02 16:48
benJIman_Doug: The covenant has no bearing, only Novell signed it, not openSUSE contributors.Aug 02 16:49
schestowitzbenJIman: hypothetically speaking: I now want to build a 100% SLED-compatible distro called... FreeSUSE. Having /PAID/ for access to code, can I build it?Aug 02 16:49
benJImanSure.Aug 02 16:49
schestowitzMoreover, can I sell and distribute it for free?Aug 02 16:49
_DougI beg to disagree, I have been monitering the situation for a while, you know. I have asked for clarification on the Covenant, but got no answers.Aug 02 16:49
schestowitzbenJIman: OpenSUSE developers can use this code as long as they don't make money, i.e. for personal use. That's what Novell said.Aug 02 16:50
benJImanschestowitz: Not true.Aug 02 16:50
schestowitzLet me find a horse-mouth thing...Aug 02 16:50
benJImanschestowitz: You may not distribute derivatives with Novell trademarks intact, much like most other distributionsAug 02 16:51
benJImanThe software is all free.Aug 02 16:51
benJImanTrademark law is pretty much the only thing that protects most free software projects from defamation.Aug 02 16:51
schestowitz 02 16:51
schestowitz"…virtualization is very very key, customers want to utilize Linux as either a host operating system with Microsoft as a guest operating system, or vice versa, and yes wea re going to support the XEN technology there, the XEN hypervisor technology, Microsoft is going to support it too."Aug 02 16:52
schestowitz"Yes, there is a competitive angle there, yes we’re coming at VMware yes yes yes we are, ok thats part of it because but we’re doing it in an open source way, so were going to support the XEN technologies in our server platforms and togther collaborate and ensure it works properly, supported properly, etc"Aug 02 16:52
schestowitz"Now as far as thats concerned, thats the technology aspects of it, now its broad from a Linux perspective, they’re essentially saying that anyone who is an OpenSUSE contributor is covered under the covenant."Aug 02 16:52
schestowitz"the covenant essentially is a patent agreement between Novell and Microsoft that says if you participate in the OpenSUSE distribution… as long as its not for commercial gain, that you are covered by this covenant, that they will not exercise what they believe is their patent rights… "Aug 02 16:52
schestowitz_NOT FOR COMMERCIAL GAIN_Aug 02 16:52
_Doug 02 16:53
benJImanschestowitz: That is just the covenant that microsoft and novell signed, it has nothing todo with how openSUSE is licensed, nor how it may be used.Aug 02 16:53
_DougNotice how Microsoft can 'revoke' your license at any time ..Aug 02 16:53
benJImanYou are confusing a private agreement between two companies with how software is licensed.Aug 02 16:53
schestowitzWell, that's like saying that OpenSUSE has already disengaged itself. There are large OpenSUSE deployments in the German authorities. I wonder how they perceive this.Aug 02 16:53
_DougNo, if I distribute openSuSE I am bound by this covenant.Aug 02 16:54
_DougIt's a long leash that can be jerked anytime.Aug 02 16:54
schestowitzWait until Mr. Smith knocks on their door with "trick and treat" (Linux tax or migration back to Vista).Aug 02 16:54
_DougIt's embrace and pollute .. in'it :)Aug 02 16:54
schestowitzOpenSUSE developers would be up in arms, but...Aug 02 16:55
schestowitz“We would like to strike similar patent deals with all the Linux vendors, but we had to start somewhere,” said Bill Hilf.Aug 02 16:55
schestowitz,...Aug 02 16:55
benJImanschestowitz: For example, microsoft could issue a statement saying that they will not sue any ubuntu developer who does not redistribute it for profit. That would be exactly the same thing, would it alter Ubuntu's licensing? Of course not.Aug 02 16:56
_Doug"This pledge is personal to You and does not apply to any use or distribution of Your Original Work by others" see ? how is this like the GPL ?Aug 02 16:56
_Doug" would it alter Ubuntu's licensing?" no exactly, but it would tend to stunt its takup in the market place.Aug 02 16:57
benJIman_Doug: You are not bound to any microsoft covenant if you distribute openSUSE. You are only bound by the licences of the openSUSE collective work and each package licence.Aug 02 16:57
schestowitzbenJIman: Ubuntu (Canonical) does not negotiate with Microsoft. it works with Fleundo, which is the nearest link. Shuttleworth cursed Microsoft's behaviour whereas Novell cooperates with Microsoft.Aug 02 16:58
_DougIf you don't see anything wrong with that deal, then I have to suggest you are a little too trusting or nieve .. :)Aug 02 16:58
benJImanschestowitz: I don't see how that's relevant. If the text of the licence were altered you might have a point.Aug 02 16:58
_DougbenJIman: can we have that in writing from Novell.Aug 02 16:59
schestowitzBack to denial.Aug 02 16:59
benJIman_Doug: The deal does not grant or remove any rights I had before it, it is simply irrelevant to me.Aug 02 16:59
benJIman_Doug: You already do, on every openSUSE medium.Aug 02 16:59
_DougbenJIman: have you ever been asked to sign the covenant ?Aug 02 16:59
benJImanNo.Aug 02 16:59
schestowitzHeh. Give Novell a few more years to become Citrix.... or a part of Microsoft... like VMWare is to EMC.Aug 02 16:59
_DougbenJIman: if the deal is irrelevant, they why is Novell totally silent on the matter?Aug 02 17:00
schestowitzbenJIman: one more think you're forgetting is that this covenant has a FUD factor (like SCO), which is intended to slow down OpenSUSE (and Ubuntu/Fedora/whatever.Aug 02 17:01
benJIman_Doug: I don't know what you mean, they have said quite a bit in the past, what do you want to know?Aug 02 17:01
_DougAnd what's this doing on a Microsoft site.Aug 02 17:01
_Doug 02 17:01
schestowitzMicrosoft can lift up some papers to show that community distros are not protected, and it might actually do so. Novell gave it a carte blanche.Aug 02 17:01
_Doug"what do I want to know", I want to know if I can distribute openSuSE in a commercial environment, without getting sued for Intellectual property violation. Can my downstream customers do the same.Aug 02 17:03
schestowitzThat's for the MS salesman to post potential defectors to Free distros: " Microsoft reserves the right to terminate and revoke this pledge to You, as of the date granted, if You or an entity that You control asserts a patent infringement claim against a Microsoft product, service or technology. "Aug 02 17:03
benJIman_Doug: You can read the licence on the openSUSE medium. If you distribute openSUSE for profit you will either have to remove the branding or get permission from Novell as the trademark owner I believe.Aug 02 17:03
schestowitzbenJIman: I'm not sure you can read the real info on Novell's medium.Aug 02 17:04
schestowitzNovell censors.Aug 02 17:04
benJImanschestowitz: That is all that is legally binding.Aug 02 17:04
schestowitz"Ahh .. hey they even removed my posts re the GPL over on openSuSE .. No mention of the MS covenant .. :) I did a whois on the username .."Aug 02 17:04
schestowitzNovell: learning from Microsoft so fast. Slime, slime, slime, then "Mopping Up"Aug 02 17:05
_DougI'de prefer to use the original distro and pay them for a support license. I don't want to engage in a covenant with another software company.Aug 02 17:05
schestowitzMore on "mopping up" in: 02 17:05
_DougLike, I do a deal with Novell and the next thing I know is I'm in a contractual relationship with a bunch of crooks !Aug 02 17:07
SeveredCrossUh, guys, are you surprised about the branding stuff?Aug 02 17:07
SeveredCrossIt's a fair bet to say that Red Hat has the same clause.Aug 02 17:07
SeveredCrossAnd I wouldn't be surprised if Canonical did.Aug 02 17:08
_DougNone of those are crooks .. :)Aug 02 17:08
benJIman_Doug: You do not engage in any covenant.Aug 02 17:08
_DougNopeAug 02 17:08
schestowitzAffected by it though.Aug 02 17:08
SeveredCrossAlso, remember that the intentional dilution of a brand is a crime in the USA.Aug 02 17:08
benJImanNope.Aug 02 17:08
benJImanThe covenant is just an agreement between Novell and Microsoft, it has no bearing on anyone else.Aug 02 17:09
schestowitzOpenSUSE?Aug 02 17:09
_DougOK, call Novell and get them to say so !!!Aug 02 17:09
benJIman_Doug: I don't need to, I have the complete terms of the licence here.Aug 02 17:09
_DougWhy not ask on the openSuSE forum?Aug 02 17:10
_DougIs there a link to that license ?Aug 02 17:10
schestowitzWe don't even know the deal... it was redacted to hell.Aug 02 17:10
benJImanNo-one competent on the forums, it was discussed to death on the mailing lists and with novell spokespeople years ago.Aug 02 17:10
schestowitzbenJIman: Yes,and people were dissatisfied.Aug 02 17:11
benJIman_Doug: is what applies to the collective work, including trademarks. If you remove the branding (there is a tool to do so) then only the licences of the individual packages (GPL, and other OSI compliant licenses) apply.Aug 02 17:12
schestowitzNovell hoped that time will bury truth and heal the wounds. Dana wrote about this before. "Open source never forgets"Aug 02 17:12
schestowitz "News publications are cautious about making accusations, and because of that, some nasty acts of Microsoft are essentially being erased from the record."Aug 02 17:12
benJImanschestowitz: People may not like what Novell did from an ethical point of view, but it does not affect openSUSE's licensing.Aug 02 17:12
schestowitzWrong question, benJIman.Aug 02 17:13
benJImanI did not ask a question.Aug 02 17:13
schestowitzIt affects what OpenSUSE developers are expected to assume and be susceptible to.Aug 02 17:13
SeveredCrossUh, it does?Aug 02 17:13
SeveredCrossWhat the hell are you talking about?Aug 02 17:14
schestowitzYou're addressing the wrong concern though. Jeff Waugh used to do the same thingAug 02 17:14
schestowitzHe wants to steer away to easy questions and then answer /these/.Aug 02 17:14
SeveredCrossYou're not answering my question--how does it affect OpenSuSE developers?Aug 02 17:14
benJImanIt does not.Aug 02 17:15
SeveredCrossI can't see any way it does, but apparently he does.Aug 02 17:15
_DougI wasn't too pleased with the original license, but it was acceptable. The newer one including the covenant, is a covenant too far ..Aug 02 17:17
_Doug"You may make and use unlimited copies of the Software within your Organization"Aug 02 17:17
benJImanThe covenant is not part of the licence.Aug 02 17:18
_Doug"Novell and/or its licensors owns and retains all title and ownership of all intellectual property rights in the Software"Aug 02 17:18
SeveredCrossWhat part of the EULA is this in?Aug 02 17:18
schestowitzbenJIman: so what is it then? It's another liability.Aug 02 17:18
benJIman_Doug: There are restrictions on the collective work yes, as with most distributions.Aug 02 17:18
SeveredCrossAh, found it.Aug 02 17:19
benJImanschestowitz: It's just an agreement between Microsoft and Novell, no-one who has not signed it is bound to it.Aug 02 17:19
benJIman_Doug: If you want to distribute it freely just remove the trademarks. Same as with mozilla software ,even debian logo and name are trademarked.Aug 02 17:20
_DougWhat was wrong with the GPL, does RedHat and the rest have such similar restrictions?Aug 02 17:20
schestowitzHow many other such patent deals were signed?Aug 02 17:20
schestowitz(Rhetorical)Aug 02 17:20
benJIman_Doug: Red hat does yes.Aug 02 17:20
_DougI don't want to distribute it freely, I want to distribute a distro, and have the benefits of a support contract.Aug 02 17:21
schestowitzNovell was a model for others to follow. Surely enough, the Church of de Icaza is also part of those who encourage developers to 'sell out'. Another one being Gutman from Zend from what I can gather.Aug 02 17:21
benJIman_Doug: Otherwise anyone could take fedora, make a derived version that includes spyware and call it fedoraAug 02 17:21
_DougDidn't Oracle recently do that to RedHat ?Aug 02 17:21
benJIman_Doug: Sure you can remove the trademarks and do whatever you want with it, same with suse.Aug 02 17:21
schestowitzSUSE has binary addons.Aug 02 17:22
benJImanNot in the main distribution, they are kept separate.Aug 02 17:22
schestowitzI'm pretty sure they use binary bridges and modules that need 'licensing'Aug 02 17:22
benJImanNope.Aug 02 17:22
_DougOracle's Linux: Unbreakable? Or Just A Necessary Adjustment?Aug 02 17:22
schestowitzYou totally ignore the fact that Novell engineers peer at Microsoft source code and have shims for hypervisors.Aug 02 17:22
_Doug 02 17:22
benJImanschestowitz: There are no such binary blobs.Aug 02 17:24
benJImanUnlike even ubuntu which distributes nvidia drivers and madwifi, both of which violate the kernel developers's copyright.Aug 02 17:24
schestowitzCan I please have the stuff that enables me to make Centos compatible (and fast) with Hyper-V?Aug 02 17:24
schestowitzIf not, why not?Aug 02 17:24
benJImanAll the source is available.Aug 02 17:25
benJImanUp to date SLE source is only available to customers though.Aug 02 17:25
schestowitzAnd can I have it all and get it working? (I'm leading somewhere)Aug 02 17:25
benJImanYou can.Aug 02 17:25
schestowitzSo why is Hyper-V only playing with SLES?Aug 02 17:26
benJImanIt's just there first.Aug 02 17:26
benJImanRemember both RH and Novell basically maintain forks of xen, which is only maintained upstream against one kernel.Aug 02 17:26
schestowitzWhy won't Red Hat make it work?Aug 02 17:27
benJImanI expect they will.Aug 02 17:27
schestowitz(I know the answer, but try to pull it out of youAug 02 17:27
schestowitzFor Fedora too? Can I distribute this throughout $Country X?Aug 02 17:28
benJImanWhy not?Aug 02 17:28
schestowitzMicrosoft only grants the right to Novell.Aug 02 17:29
benJImanIt's free software.Aug 02 17:29
schestowitzit's separating Microsoft-taxed distros from free distros usin g a carrot and a stickAug 02 17:29
schestowitzNovell is not a free software company.Aug 02 17:29
schestowitzIt calls itself mixed source after it hooked up with Microsoft.Aug 02 17:30
benJImanNot solely a free software company.Aug 02 17:30
benJImanBefore that actually.Aug 02 17:30
schestowitzThey used to describe themselves as open source.Aug 02 17:30
_DougCan we stop talking about Novell .. :)Aug 02 17:30
schestowitzLike Sun's attempt to change.Aug 02 17:30
schestowitz_Doug: but this is the channel's main topic.Aug 02 17:31
SeveredCrossEveryone includes blobs that need licensing.Aug 02 17:35
SeveredCrossUbuntu includes Java, which still requires you to accept a license.Aug 02 17:36
SeveredCrossfglrx as well.Aug 02 17:36
schestowitzSeveredCross: but who /from/? Same issue with patents.Aug 02 17:36
schestowitzPeople like to defend Mono by saying that the patent maze is vast, but it's the /holder/ of the patent that matters a great deal.Aug 02 17:36
SeveredCrossWait...are you saying that who you're accepting a license from matters?Aug 02 17:38
schestowitzyes. Same issue with Moonlight BTW (receiving downstream from Linux' main enemy). The trolls can be an issue by proxy, by association.Aug 02 17:38
SeveredCrossYou don't think that accepting the FGLRX license from AMD could turn out bad some day?Aug 02 17:39
SeveredCrossYou think just because it's Microsoft, it's guaranteed to be bad some day?Aug 02 17:39
schestowitzI doubt a hardware company like AMD wants to poison Linux. Actually, AMD has been kinder to Linux recently. It's NVidia that's the bad boy.Aug 02 17:40
schestowitzRe the latter: yes.Aug 02 17:40
SeveredCrossTalk about living in an unrealistic world. You live in your world of half-truths and whole lies about Mono/Novell/Microsoft/etc. You refuse to accept the reality of the business world.Aug 02 17:40
SeveredCrossIf you don't like what Novell does, don't use anything that's connected to Novell.Aug 02 17:40
SeveredCrossBut you know what that means? Switch to BSD.Aug 02 17:40
SeveredCrossBecause you know what? Novell has contributed to GNOME, to KDE, to the Linux kernel, etc.Aug 02 17:41
SeveredCrossThey're doing what they think is best for their company, and best for their users.Aug 02 17:41
schestowitzSeveredCross: whose side are you on?Aug 02 17:41
SeveredCrossschestowitz: Not yours?Aug 02 17:41
schestowitzSeveredCross: they work for Novell, not for FOSS. bad mistake.Aug 02 17:41
schestowitzRemember SCOSource?Aug 02 17:41
SeveredCrossI don't think Novell are the evil scum-suckers you make them out to be.Aug 02 17:42
SeveredCrossWho are you to claim to know what's best for the open-source community?Aug 02 17:42
SeveredCrossAnd what about SCO?Aug 02 17:43
schestowitzTheir business strategy is: fight Red Hat, beg Microsoft for advantage over Red Hat ((using various means) and the same applies to other distros. They make a Microsoft Linux in the sense that Microsoft is now competing with other distros by adding 'value' like Silverlight.Aug 02 17:43
schestowitzI claim nothing and speak for no-one.Aug 02 17:43
schestowitzI know what other people say and they support my assertion on this.Aug 02 17:43
SeveredCrossI seriously doubt that they're begging anyone for anything. They're fighting Red Hat by providing extra value for their customers, and if that comes in the form of making deals with Microsoft to include their own implementations of Microsoft technologies, who are you to say that's wrong?Aug 02 17:44
SeveredCrossYou just assume that Microsoft is going to turn around some day and go "Haha, we're suing everyone who uses Novell products, and every Mono developer out there."Aug 02 17:44
SeveredCrossThere's a few reasons that'll never happen.Aug 02 17:45
schestowitzMicrosoft made it very clear that it won't play fair.Aug 02 17:45
SeveredCross1) The judges would be laughing all the way out of the courthouse.Aug 02 17:45
SeveredCross2) It'd be prohibitively time-consuming.Aug 02 17:45
schestowitzAs PJ said just days ago, developers should assume that Microsoft is already suing them because she believes they willl.Aug 02 17:45
SeveredCross3) It'd be prohibitively expensive.Aug 02 17:45
SeveredCrossWho's PJ and why should I believe what she thinks?Aug 02 17:46
schestowitzFUD can be more tormenting than legal action somteimes; as is extortion, which has already begun.Aug 02 17:46
SeveredCrossWhat sort of extortion are you talking about here?Aug 02 17:46
SeveredCrossAlso, who cares about FUD?Aug 02 17:46
schestowitzHaven't heard of Microsoft sucking money secretly from top Linux users?Aug 02 17:46
SeveredCrossIf the open-source community is stupid enough to believe all the FUD without doing the research, they don't deserve anything.Aug 02 17:46
schestowitzFortune 500?Aug 02 17:46
SeveredCrossWhat?Aug 02 17:46
SeveredCrossHow have they been sucking money from them?Aug 02 17:47
schestowitzWait, I'll fetch link/s.Aug 02 17:47
schestowitz 02 17:47
schestowitzI have some more external refs, but for IRC needs, it ought to suffice. Horse's mouth even...Aug 02 17:48
SeveredCrossAhahhahahahahahaha.Aug 02 17:48
SeveredCrossThat's fantastic. Any company that's paying Microsoft royalties because they use GNU/Linux, need to have their legal department's heads checked.Aug 02 17:49
SeveredCrossYou know how that decision came about? I bet that some idiot in the legal department got a suggestive letter from someone at Microsoft, and then crapped their pants.Aug 02 17:49
schestowitzWell, yeah..Aug 02 17:49
schestowitzAllison talked about it too...Aug 02 17:49
SeveredCrossThey went to the CFO, etc. and said "Uhm, I'm scared!"Aug 02 17:49
schestowitzI found out about it because he complained that people secretly paid Microsoft for Samba after pressure.Aug 02 17:49
SeveredCrossAnd nobody went through IT, nobody hired proper patent lawyers/code folks to check out the GNU/Linux source code they're using to make sure it's okay.Aug 02 17:50
SeveredCrossThey're just scared little children who caved under a little FUD. That's just stupidity.Aug 02 17:50
schestowitzI actually have some more stories that I cannot publish.Aug 02 17:50
SeveredCrossRight, and I've got some real estate in Florida that I'd like to sell you.Aug 02 17:50
schestowitzPeople do pay for land on Mars.Aug 02 17:50
schestowitzDid anyone buy indemnification from SCO? Any chances of a refund?Aug 02 17:51
SeveredCrossAlso, if they're paying Microsoft for Samba, they're none too bright either. Clean-room reverse-engineerings of protocols/etc. aren't illegal last I cheked.Aug 02 17:51
schestowitz“Novell pays us some money for the right to tell customers that anybody who uses SuSE Linux is appropriately covered.” –Steve Ballmer Aug 02 17:52
schestowitzMicrosoft General Counsel Brad Smith and licensing chief Horacio Gutierrez sat down with Fortune recently to map out their strategy for getting FOSS users to pay royalties. - FortuneAug 02 17:52
schestowitz"Mr. Ballmer once called Linux a form of intellectual-property cancer. While he has since dialed back the rhetoric, the subtext remains in nearly all Microsoft discussions of Linux: Use it, and you run the risk that Microsoft will sue you [for patent infringement]." Post-GazetteAug 02 17:52
SeveredCrossRight, and it's FUD.Aug 02 17:52
SeveredCrossAlso, do you honestly think Microsoft would risk that?Aug 02 17:53
schestowitzRisk what exactly?Aug 02 17:53
SeveredCrossThere's plenty of people who would help pay the legal fees for that defense, and it also means that Microsoft would have to make their source-code available.Aug 02 17:53
SeveredCrossIn order to prove patent infringment, Microsoft has to make source-code available to show prior art.Aug 02 17:53
schestowitzWell, yes, but that cloud can deceive some nonetheless.Aug 02 17:53
SeveredCrossThat source-code then enters into the public record.Aug 02 17:53
SeveredCrossAnd you, I, and Joe Sixpack can read it.Aug 02 17:54
schestowitzAdd that to FUD like the one from Microsoft partner (in alliance) Fortify.Aug 02 17:54
SeveredCrossschestowitz: And the people who get deceived need to have their headchecked.Aug 02 17:54
SeveredCrossFUD is bad, but FUD isn't everything.Aug 02 17:54
SeveredCrossThe problem with the open source community in general is that they believe FUD.Aug 02 17:54
schestowitzNot all do.Aug 02 17:54
schestowitzBut they target CIOs and such folks who don't understand copyleft and FOSS.Aug 02 17:54
SeveredCrossHalf the community is a bunch of naive children who gets scared at any mention of a lawsuit or patent infringment or anything that might threaten their precious community.Aug 02 17:55
SeveredCrossAnd those CIO's are supposed to have underlings who explain this stuff to them, and a CIO should know all of these things anyway.Aug 02 17:55
schestowitzWell, for sure.Aug 02 17:55
SeveredCrossThe problem is that how high you rise in the corporate wold is directly proportional to your level of idiocy.Aug 02 17:55
schestowitzIn Germany, Microsoft's tactics are illegal. It's slander.Aug 02 17:55
SeveredCrossIn the USA, they aren't. Big whoop.Aug 02 17:56
SeveredCrossCoroporations using GNU/Linux should be checking out the ramifications of Microsoft's threats if/when the threats are made.Aug 02 17:56
schestowitzI hereby state that you are a thief. I know what I know and we'll sort it out in court. :-) (SCO was like that too, but copyrights rather than patents...)Aug 02 17:56
SeveredCrossSimply paying out the royalties is dumb.Aug 02 17:56
SeveredCrossIt'd probably cost them less to take a few people on to make sure the claims are/aren't bunk than it does to pay Microsoft.Aug 02 17:57
schestowitzWell, there is no concerted  effort.Aug 02 17:57
schestowitzThat's why I believe Microsoft keeps it quiet and the press hardly covers this extortion. Yes, extortion is what it is.Aug 02 17:58
SeveredCrossYou consider it extortion, I consider it boldness on Microsoft's part, and idiocy on the part of the companies who are paying.Aug 02 17:58
schestowitzMicrosoft targets the peons and troops rather than nations and armies.Aug 02 17:58
schestowitzAnother factor may lie in the companies' partnerships with Microsoft. They need to keep the beast happy.Aug 02 17:59
_DougGot to go .. will be back on tomorrow ..Aug 02 18:10
*_Doug (n=emacsuse@ has left #boycottnovellAug 02 18:11
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellAug 02 19:52
*anemary (n=robertad@ has joined #boycottnovellAug 02 21:07
*anemary (n=robertad@ has left #boycottnovellAug 02 21:08

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