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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 6th, 2008

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ZiggyFishhttp://www.computerworld.com/action/articl...Sep 06 00:07
ZiggyFishOpen source: What you should learn from the FrenchSep 06 00:07
schestowitzIt's interesting that CW is with IDG now. Was it always the case?Sep 06 00:08
schestowitzI've been noticing this recently.Sep 06 00:08
schestowitzIDG is IDC related, IIRC, i.e. Microsoft money on the table.Sep 06 00:08
ZiggyFishlolSep 06 00:09
schestowitzhttp://www.boozallen.com/news/38177659   "McLean, VA – June 18, 2007 – Booz Allen Hamilton announced today that IDG’s Computerworld magazine"Sep 06 00:09
schestowitzHmmmm.... weird. I didn't realise itSep 06 00:10
schestowitzhttp://www.ntcompatible.com/IDC_Cost_Analysis_Fund...Sep 06 00:11
schestowitz"eWeek's Peter Galli gets the scoop that the recent IDC paper, which claims that the total cost of ownership (TOC) for Windows beats out Linux servers, was actually sponsored by Microsoft itself. " Galli seems to have retired or something this yearSep 06 00:12
schestowitz"Research firm IDC, in a Microsoft-funded study..." http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.htmlSep 06 00:12
schestowitz"IDC is a subsidiary of IDG , the world's leading technology media, research, and events company. Additional information can be found at www.idc.com." http://www.idg.com/www/HomeNew.nsf/docs/idcSep 06 00:13
ZiggyFishFirefox users report problems after updating ( http://www.computerworld.com/actio... ) - another Microsoft Fuck upSep 06 00:13
schestowitzI should really write something about it. IDG is huge, so the bias is clearer to see.Sep 06 00:13
ZiggyFishyeahSep 06 00:13
schestowitzThis affects ComputerWorld, NetworkWorld, PCWorld, LinuxWorld and many other publicationsSep 06 00:14
schestowitzLinuxInsider too was sold to ECT, which now uses it to attack Linux sometimes.Sep 06 00:14
ZiggyFishyeahSep 06 00:15
schestowitzAnyway, I'll write about it tomorrow cause I'm tired, so I'll just post some links.Sep 06 00:16
ZiggyFishniceSep 06 00:20
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ZiggyFishheySep 06 04:25
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seller_liarI remember now , dot gnu does not suffer about ms deal because gplv3Sep 06 06:06
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warrenHi folks, just wanted to say, keep up the good work. =)Sep 06 06:40
warrenMy dislike of Novell really began with this: http://wtogami.livejournal.com/11305.htmlSep 06 06:41
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schestowitzHey, Warren. Thanks.Sep 06 07:02
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schestowitzIt seems like Mr. Microsoft Consultant is threatening to harm this IRC channel unless he's permitted here: http://www.fsdaily.com/Business/Boy...Sep 06 08:14
tessierWhat a wankerSep 06 08:37
tessierJust ignore himSep 06 08:37
schestowitzI di.Sep 06 08:37
schestowitz*doSep 06 08:37
benJImanNormally bans are removed after a short time, if the person being banned is not a repeat troublemaker.Sep 06 09:18
*schestowitz removes ban on *!*@pdpc/supporter/monthlybronze/cjSep 06 09:28
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schestowitzMonty is out! "First, it's a rumour. Technically there is no resignation letter. However, I spoke to Monty yesterday, and yes, resignation is an option he considers," reads a blog post from Kaj Arnö, MySQL vice president for spin community relations." http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09...Sep 06 09:34
schestowitzIt's probably good news. Monty was a lobbying /against/ software patents and Sun's attitude towards GNU/Linux and patents must not have done good. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05...Sep 06 09:35
PetoKrausmanSep 06 09:43
PetoKraushttp://biosyourlife.com/index.php?opt...Sep 06 09:43
PetoKrausthis is RUBBISHSep 06 09:43
schestowitzIt's corny, I know.Sep 06 09:44
schestowitzWatch the signature: "MS"Sep 06 09:44
PetoKrausyeahSep 06 09:44
PetoKrausi meanSep 06 09:44
PetoKrausit's such a horrible article, that if it was written about windows, we'd call the author "paid for"Sep 06 09:45
schestowitzMaybe MS is [M]ark [S]huttlworth. :-)Sep 06 09:46
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trmancohey coolSep 06 10:01
trmancocola has statsSep 06 10:01
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benJImanschestowitz: btw "Use the chanserv "op" command to obtain channel operator status only when needed. This will help to keep your channel temperature low and reduce conflicts." [ http://freenode.net/using_the_network.shtml ]Sep 06 10:13
schestowitzbenJIman: if you're gonna heckle, please take it elsewhere. You're not here for good reasons and you know it. There are at last 3 OpenSUSE people in the channel right now and you lecture us on "temperature".Sep 06 10:17
benJImanJust pointing out freenode policy.Sep 06 10:17
schestowitzHow convenient. "It's not me, it's him"Sep 06 10:17
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captain_magnusschestowitz: "good reasons"?Sep 06 10:37
schestowitzcaptain_OpenSUSE_magnus: yes, good reasons. You're not trying to help. You're /against/ BN.Sep 06 10:37
captain_magnusschestowitz: Glad we got that out of the way schestowitz_Not_openSUSE. Was just curious what good reasons wereSep 06 10:40
schestowitzBut don't worry, I won't provoke or criticise you guys anymore. It's Novell that's the issue. I have a good post about OpenSUSE coming.Sep 06 10:41
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mib_4t537thellooo everybodySep 06 10:57
schestowitzHi there, what's up?Sep 06 10:58
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kentmaschestowitz: I'm going to be doing some system maintenance today - there will be some downtime, sorry.Sep 06 11:32
schestowitzThat's cool.Sep 06 11:36
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trmancoschestowitz, that key you use on the usenet is really yours right?Sep 06 11:46
schestowitzYes, if you can validate it. Some people faked that by copying and pasting (and posting under my name).Sep 06 11:52
trmancothe one with the key id: 74572E8ESep 06 11:55
trmancoI'll validate it and trust itSep 06 11:55
Odd_BlokeUhm, you shouldn't really trust a key based on an IRC conversation.Sep 06 11:57
schestowitzhttp://schestowitz.com/PGP/Sep 06 11:58
trmancowellSep 06 11:58
trmancoI can't go visit him personally and confirm if the key is really his :PSep 06 11:59
Odd_BlokeThat's still not enough to trust it.Sep 06 11:59
Odd_BlokeThen don't trust it.Sep 06 11:59
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kentmaschestowitz: should be up again now..?Sep 06 13:12
schestowitzWorks perfectly! I suppose you've patched up that OpenSSL thingie.Sep 06 13:13
kentmaI think so...Sep 06 13:14
kentmaseem to be on up to date versions, so should be fine.Sep 06 13:14
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schestowitzI updated a Ubuntu box some days ago (I burned literally HALF a day struggling with that one) and it got a shrwed mechanism for patching it.Sep 06 13:15
schestowitzNot only does it get a modified package but it also regenerates the keys.Sep 06 13:15
kentmaneat!Sep 06 13:15
schestowitzBTW, this problem was due to  -- guess what -- a bad hub!Sep 06 13:15
schestowitzTook me ages to find the cause of the issue. Not even rebooting the hub would help and I tried everything!Sep 06 13:16
kentmaI've just replaced yet another disk here...Sep 06 13:16
schestowitzEven rebotted the switch.Sep 06 13:16
kentmathis is where ip networks are terrible - there's almost no proper maintenance information from them.Sep 06 13:16
schestowitzI'm going to take back my position as a network engineer to pay my bills, ensuring I can carry on advocating FOSS without running out of money.Sep 06 13:16
schestowitzI spoke about this with my dad this morning. I guess it's a good solution.Sep 06 13:17
kentmaprobablyh a good plan - running out of cash is not a great idea :-)Sep 06 13:17
josetough compromises.Sep 06 13:17
schestowitzYup. I've had some savings because I had worked since I was like 14, but that too may run out.Sep 06 13:17
joseif only the cash would last longerSep 06 13:17
kentmait would be useful it if could be rolled thinner :-)Sep 06 13:18
schestowitzjose: how's the economy over there in Florida?Sep 06 13:18
schestowitzI have many relatives there.Sep 06 13:18
joseit should worsen by the month.. at least for nowSep 06 13:18
josei'm not employed in ITSep 06 13:18
josei cannot handle emplyee relationship for that sort of workSep 06 13:19
schestowitzjose:  good fot you.Sep 06 13:19
schestowitz*forSep 06 13:19
josei did always think i had a rather good fot.Sep 06 13:19
schestowitzThe last I'be heard, Shane (of BN) quit this industry. It's chaos.Sep 06 13:19
schestowitzEngineers becoming non-techies.Sep 06 13:19
joseThere should be more (greater volume) of interesting work as linux is taken upSep 06 13:20
schestowitzjose: yes, that too.Sep 06 13:20
joseeverywhere savings are taking a hit as prices rise and wages....Sep 06 13:20
schestowitzThankfully I don't have to mess with Windows in my IT roles.Sep 06 13:21
schestowitzjose: in FL too?Sep 06 13:21
joseschestowitz: i just wrote this. http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph...Sep 06 13:21
josein FL literal wages are stagnant or even dropping deceptively while all prices have gone upSep 06 13:22
josenaturally *real* wages are droppingSep 06 13:22
schestowitzMy cousins is in construction; that can't be good. After hurricane Andrew he had lots of business (rebuilding), but now it's the opposite.Sep 06 13:22
schestowitzWell, that's a bummer for those with mortgages.Sep 06 13:22
joseyeah, construction has taken a hit along with the entire housing sectorSep 06 13:23
schestowitzI have a friend who's stressed out about it. Some people can lose their house.Sep 06 13:23
joseif you keep your job, you can continue to pay the mortgage though psychologically you will have to fight uphillSep 06 13:23
jose knowing that so much equity has disappeared and that you now have extra debtSep 06 13:24
schestowitzFor how long? :-) 20 years ?Sep 06 13:24
joselinux will save everything :-)Sep 06 13:24
jose3.. 4 yearsSep 06 13:24
joselinux is comingSep 06 13:24
schestowitzThat guys I'm actually competing against today. Rowing competition. I'm probably going to win the plate this year. :-)Sep 06 13:24
josewhat kind of rowingSep 06 13:24
joseteam?Sep 06 13:24
schestowitzjose: companies will collapse along with their tissue paper moneySep 06 13:25
schestowitzThe fear is that deficit will be shown for what it is once companies go bankrupt. Look at SCO... from 'hero' to zero in Sept. 2007.Sep 06 13:25
joseyeah but ma and pa will have an unfair share of that tissue paper if it does in fact drop like a rockSep 06 13:25
schestowitzjose: oars.Sep 06 13:25
schestowitzMa and pa might live in a tent by that timeSep 06 13:26
schestowitzhttp://www.youtube.com/results?se...Sep 06 13:26
schestowitzThe press doesn't cover 'tent cities'. It shows 'American dream' though, you know, to keep people hopeful and motivates. That's Hollywood brainwash for you.Sep 06 13:29
schestowitz*motivatedSep 06 13:29
josewallstreet greedSep 06 13:29
josethere should be laws where people's fundamental needs take precendence over business. This way the business community is forced to find solutions or be more carefulSep 06 13:30
josehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mbns4...Sep 06 13:31
schestowitzIt's shocking I know. Let me watch this.Sep 06 13:32
josei'll be back a little laterSep 06 13:40
schestowitzI'll be around.Sep 06 13:40
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schestowitzThe Microsoft money in IDG/IDC goes a long way back on the face of it: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1001-975938.html http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Linux-and-Open-Source/St...Sep 06 14:41
joseschestowitz, did you change the url to this page http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/... ?Sep 06 14:54
schestowitzI haven't, why?Sep 06 14:58
schestowitzOh f*!!!Sep 06 14:58
schestowitzIt's that annoying bug that turns posts "Private"Sep 06 14:59
schestowitzHow long has this gone on for, I wonder..Sep 06 14:59
josejust checked right now. i posted something there yesterday.Sep 06 15:02
schestowitzI fixed it a moment ago.Sep 06 15:02
schestowitzIt must have lasted for a few hours, which is shame because Carla selected it for front page of Linux Today.Sep 06 15:02
trmancoschestowitz, what version of what are you using on BN?Sep 06 15:04
trmancoIt looks like Wordpress to me but I'm not quite sureSep 06 15:05
kentmaschestowitz: sorry another outage ---  hard drive problems :-(Sep 06 15:07
schestowitz2.0.xSep 06 15:07
schestowitzIt's LTS, kentma, because it's on Debian repos.Sep 06 15:07
trmancohmmSep 06 15:07
trmancoa little old :PSep 06 15:07
kentmaLTS?Sep 06 15:07
schestowitzNo, it's being patched.Sep 06 15:07
schestowitzUntil 2010, IIRC.Sep 06 15:07
schestowitzI have 2.6 on my other blogs.Sep 06 15:07
trmancookSep 06 15:08
schestowitzWith BN, I have some plugins that I don't want to risk losing.Sep 06 15:08
schestowitzhttp://wordpress.org/download/legacy/Sep 06 15:09
schestowitz"In keeping with the stable/testing release philosophy of Debian we have committed to maintaining our 2.0 branch with security and critical fixes until 2010. (Yes that’s 5 years after it was originally released in 2005.)"Sep 06 15:09
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trmancocoolSep 06 15:11
trmancoI didn't know thatSep 06 15:11
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Odd_BlokeI agree with most of http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/... but Microsoft aren't doing anything to not "permit the Kenyan people to have freedom with Free(dom) software".Sep 06 15:23
Odd_Blokes/anything/anything reported within that article and directly related to cyber cafes/Sep 06 15:23
joseI imagine bn has covered OLPC and Kenya, right? There is also the implied effects of dumping. While $3 is dumping when you consider it's regular price elsewhere, I think the $0 piracy is also dumping.. freebies being given to defund competitors.. think netscape and free ie and the loss they took in court as a result.Sep 06 15:39
schestowitzYes, and cost of a copy is $0 anyway.Sep 06 15:41
joseIt's the behinds the scenes dirt that we all want.. but that is hard to get.. assuming it exists.Sep 06 15:41
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/03/...Sep 06 15:42
*schestowitz off for a whileSep 06 15:50
josebn works to help put the puzzle pieces together but you don't always get the hand pulling trigger piece for each and every event.Sep 06 15:53
jose.. at least not right away.Sep 06 15:54
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seller_liarschestowitz: hello roySep 06 16:23
seller_liarschestowitz: cj have a problem with youSep 06 16:23
warrenbtw, what motivates you to boycott novell?Sep 06 16:30
seller_liarwhat?Sep 06 16:31
trmancohttp://www.techwatch.co.uk/2008/09/0...Sep 06 16:32
trmancoseller_liar, Roy is awaySep 06 16:32
seller_liartrmanco: sim ,eu viSep 06 16:32
trmanco€»€»€»€»  * schestowitz off for a whileSep 06 16:32
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seller_liartrmanco: I remember now, dot gnu does not suffer of patent problems like novellsoft beucause it's gplv3Sep 06 16:42
seller_liartrmanco: documentaries have more power over text, if roy can do a documentary about m$ ,this is can be goodSep 06 16:47
seller_liartrmanco: look super size me for exampleSep 06 16:47
trmancoA documentarySep 06 16:48
seller_liartrmanco: yesSep 06 16:49
trmancowe can contact Michael Moore, I'm sure the message will get to the vast majority :PSep 06 16:49
seller_liartrmanco: hehe...Sep 06 16:49
seller_liartrmanco: but one image means 100 wordsSep 06 16:50
seller_liartrmanco: it's hard , i know,but the efficiency is the bestSep 06 16:50
seller_liartrmanco: easy language, passive information are the best of televisionSep 06 16:51
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joseLatest comment titled "Novell the liability" http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3...Sep 06 17:46
joseroy has put together a lot of information. many producers could leverage it. including amateurs in bunches on youtube. ;-)Sep 06 17:47
trmanco:)Sep 06 17:48
kentmaschestowitz: further server probs - sorry.Sep 06 17:51
joselaterSep 06 18:21
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schestowitzI won! (5:23 for one mile rowing)Sep 06 19:08
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GoldenearHi thereSep 06 19:18
GoldenearI would like to chat about the fear around monoSep 06 19:19
GoldenearI would try to understandSep 06 19:19
schestowitzSure.Sep 06 19:20
Goldenearmost popular linux distros now include mono by defaultSep 06 19:20
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Goldenearbut many people on the web are against thatSep 06 19:21
GoldenearI'm trying to understand what's wrong with monoSep 06 19:21
schestowitzGoldenear: some include it by default "because others do"Sep 06 19:21
tessierIt's a trap. :(Sep 06 19:21
Goldenearbut what's wrong in doing soSep 06 19:22
schestowitzFedora for example thought it was 'safe' (it knew it was controversial and denied it before). Then it said "everyone does it"Sep 06 19:22
tessierMicrosoft is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patents and these people think it's a good idea use mono.Sep 06 19:22
schestowitzThe same is often said about codecs, but the difference is the /holder/ of the patents,.Sep 06 19:22
schestowitzI  May 2007 Microsoft openly threatened to sue Linux vendors/users.Sep 06 19:22
tessierGoldenear: There are tons of good and similar technologies out there. Why adopt the riskiest one?Sep 06 19:22
tessierAnd you can never tell which of the mono advocates Microsoft is behind.Sep 06 19:23
schestowitzGoldenear: it's not just patents though. There are other more serious issues.Sep 06 19:23
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tessierSo it's hard to tell who is really being deceptive and who really thinks mono is a good technology.Sep 06 19:23
schestowitzFor one thing, Microsoft wants .NET spread throughout the Web for greater control.Sep 06 19:23
tessierAnd if .NET spreads we can only use IE to view the web. And no IE for Linux.Sep 06 19:23
Goldenearbut arent't the patents issue only about the winforms asp and other specific Microsoft stuffs ?Sep 06 19:23
schestowitzThere's a great deal of pseudo support of Mono/.NET but that's another matter.Sep 06 19:24
tessierGoldenear: They won't say what the patent issue is. It may even be with Mono.Sep 06 19:24
schestowitzMicrosoft for example was caught gaming polls to give the illusion that .NET is better.Sep 06 19:24
tessierGiven that mono is a clone of a Microsoft technology it seems likely.Sep 06 19:24
schestowitzDo search on .NET in Google Patents.Sep 06 19:25
schestowitzI did that last week.Sep 06 19:25
GoldenearC# is not patented ?Sep 06 19:25
schestowitzThe excuse made is that it's standardisedSep 06 19:26
tessierMany of the techniques and technologies in C# are patented, yes.Sep 06 19:26
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schestowitzHowever, standards and patents are not mutually exclusive.Sep 06 19:26
schestowitztessier: based on what I hear from people, the issue of control (technical) is greater than patents (legal)Sep 06 19:26
schestowitzJust watch Silverlight/Moonlight.Sep 06 19:26
schestowitzhere you have an example of the illusion of parity.Sep 06 19:27
tessierThat's probably true. But if control fails they will definitely resort to patents.Sep 06 19:27
schestowitzCould Moonlight users get access to the Olympic? No? Why not? because Microsoft owns the APISep 06 19:27
schestowitzHad it been Ajax+Ogg, none of this would happen.Sep 06 19:27
schestowitzFF 3.1 will have Ogg built in and Chrome pushes JS and Ajax further. FF3.1 also matches Chrime performance and surpasses it.Sep 06 19:28
schestowitztessier: that's what Rambus did.Sep 06 19:28
schestowitzCompanies relinquish control of their so-called INNOVA~1 only as long as they are fat, happy and profitable.Sep 06 19:28
Goldenearis there any evidence that Microsoft could have something againt GTK# (from a patent point of view) ?Sep 06 19:28
tessierGoldenear: They will never tell us exactly what patents are being infringed by what.Sep 06 19:29
schestowitzMicrosoft has lost around 100 billiob dollar in value this year, so don't expect it to be gantle.Sep 06 19:29
GoldenearI mean more against GTK# than about GTK+Sep 06 19:29
schestowitz*gentleSep 06 19:29
GoldenearI don't expect that from themSep 06 19:29
schestowitzThere are also submarine patents.Sep 06 19:29
tessierGoldenear: You don't expect what from the?Sep 06 19:29
tessierthSep 06 19:29
tessierthemSep 06 19:30
schestowitzWatch them patenting PgUp/PgDn in 2005!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1Sep 06 19:30
Goldenearbut I don't wont to become paranoid neitherSep 06 19:30
*tessier needs to find out why his keyboard drops keysSep 06 19:30
schestowitzWhat ought to be proposed is this.Sep 06 19:31
schestowitzUntil the folks at Novell openly explain how they got exclusive 'protection' for Mono and what individual patents are involve, say no to Novell's Mono (yes, Novell owns the framework)Sep 06 19:31
Goldenearanyway software patents is a poison for FOSSSep 06 19:32
schestowitzGranted, they cannot be granted except for in very few countries, let alone be honoured.Sep 06 19:33
schestowitzMicrosoft bypasses the law, e.g. in India, South Africa, which means that it breaks the law by filing for software patents there. Also, it cashes in on imaginary software patents (Dell for example, plus back room deal). Microsoft is like Sisvel.Sep 06 19:35
GoldenearI'm living in Europe so I've not (yet) problem with software patentsSep 06 19:36
Goldenearbut eg in the US it's a real nightmareSep 06 19:37
schestowitzDon't worry, it's imploding there too, but don't be part of this implosion.Sep 06 19:37
GoldenearI'm pretty sure that microsoft is right where it  is accusing Linux of violating hundreds of patentsSep 06 19:38
Goldenearthere are patents for almost anythingSep 06 19:38
Goldenearthat's so crazySep 06 19:38
schestowitzDo you know how many IBM patents (i.e. OIN too) Microsoft infringes on?Sep 06 19:39
Goldenearand vice versaSep 06 19:39
schestowitzYes, which renders this whole system moot.Sep 06 19:40
Goldenearbut you are protected againt other big companies when you are a big company :)Sep 06 19:40
schestowitzIt's more complicatedSep 06 19:40
schestowitzMicrosoft would not attack Linux directly /because/ of this,Sep 06 19:40
Goldenearthe system is only there to kill small businessesSep 06 19:40
schestowitzIt can pass on a little patent to Nathan Myhrvold or other former scum and have the patent troll attack Linux.Sep 06 19:40
schestowitzThey may have already done this with Acacia (against Novell and Red Hat)Sep 06 19:41
Goldenearexcept the patents issue, is there anything else against mono ?Sep 06 19:42
schestowitzYes, API control.Sep 06 19:43
schestowitzThat's the issue which I consider more serious.Sep 06 19:43
schestowitzI'd need an analogy here.Sep 06 19:43
GoldenearAPI control by Microsoft ?Sep 06 19:44
schestowitzOOXML is one.Sep 06 19:44
Goldenearthe difference is that OOXML already had a free/open equivalentSep 06 19:45
schestowitzMicrosoft can and will (and already has) extend OOXML and have everyone at Microsoft's mercy not just because it's impossible to implement but also because of legal grounds. And let's not get into the OOXML corruptions even...Sep 06 19:45
*libervisco has quit ("Ideas are bullet proof.")Sep 06 19:45
schestowitzGoldenear: like java?Sep 06 19:45
Goldenearisn't the java api controlled by sun ?Sep 06 19:45
schestowitzGoldenear: does Java want to "f* kill" the "cancer" called F OSS?Sep 06 19:46
Goldenear?Sep 06 19:46
schestowitzMicrosoft's one side of the mouth says use Mono (yes, its people say so) and the other says that it's only for Novell and that it can and might sue over patents.Sep 06 19:47
Goldenearso, why not fork mono and make a clean one, only with GTK# ?Sep 06 19:48
schestowitzDefine 'clean' for a clone.Sep 06 19:49
schestowitzIt's like saying "let's make a clean version of OOXML"Sep 06 19:49
GoldenearOOXML is not clean from it's basis... it's really MS office dependent (and at least the first version of OOXML included some dark binary blobs)Sep 06 19:50
Goldenearc# is now an ecma standard... so it can be freely implementedSep 06 19:51
schestowitzFree as in...?Sep 06 19:51
Goldeneargtk# is just gtk for c#Sep 06 19:51
Goldenearfree as a free peopleSep 06 19:52
benJImanI think not providing mono would be a much bigger hinderance to free software. Developers are more likely to write and contribute to free software in their spare time if they can do so with a language and platform they know. Not allowing .net developers to contribute is losing a massive potential contributor base.Sep 06 19:52
schestowitzShould Linux also adopt DirectX and ActiveX?Sep 06 19:52
benJImanThe kernel?Sep 06 19:53
schestowitzYou know what I meanSep 06 19:53
benJImanIf someone wants to work on implementing them then sure.Sep 06 19:53
Goldenearwine can run many directx appsSep 06 19:53
benJImanIndeed.Sep 06 19:53
schestowitzYes, BUT.Sep 06 19:54
schestowitzPeople do not develop on Linux /FOR/ Wine.Sep 06 19:54
benJImanSome people do.Sep 06 19:54
benJImane.g. picassa for winelib iirc.Sep 06 19:54
schestowitzIt's one thing to bring .NET application to run them on Linux and another to use Monodevelop to write them from scratch the Microsoft way.Sep 06 19:54
Goldenearbut that a very special case imhoSep 06 19:54
schestowitzHow so?Sep 06 19:54
benJImanschestowitz: Even if those developers would otherwise not contribute to free software at all?Sep 06 19:55
schestowitzYou give them convenience with bad habits, so they won't change them.Sep 06 19:56
benJImanschestowitz: If .net is used for 20-30% of business software development (numbers out of the air, but not an unreasonable guess I think) then that's an awful lot of people who could be contributing.Sep 06 19:56
schestowitzCompromise.Sep 06 19:56
schestowitzhttp://www.gnu.org/philosophy/freedom-or-power.htmlSep 06 19:56
benJImanIf the implementation were non-free I might agree with you.Sep 06 19:56
schestowitzThey empower an enemy of fredom.Sep 06 19:57
benJImanFree software is free to empower anyone.Sep 06 19:58
GoldenearIf it's done cleverly mono could empower freedom with a Microsoft based technology...Sep 06 19:58
Goldenearthe trick is just to be vigilentSep 06 19:58
schestowitzFor the record, Goldenear, benJIman is here to defend Novell.Sep 06 20:00
Goldenearwhy couldn't gtk# be a weapon against MSSep 06 20:00
benJImanFor the record, I am not here to defend Novell.Sep 06 20:00
schestowitzBecause as soon as gtk# becomes a threat to Microsoft, it has power to harm it.Sep 06 20:00
schestowitznot the same with gtk+Sep 06 20:00
Goldenearwhat's the difference ?Sep 06 20:01
benJImanI disagree with the personification of Microsoft as an evil entity. I have no problem disagreeing with some of their corporate actions, they do some things that are helpful for free software too.Sep 06 20:01
schestowitzbenJIman: *LOL* Yeah, not at all...Sep 06 20:01
schestowitzbenJIman: You're here to 'add balance'Sep 06 20:01
benJImanschestowitz: As I mentioned yesterday I disagree with Novell's actions on many things, including parts of the microsoft covenant.Sep 06 20:01
schestowitzGoldenear: Microsoft controls the API and get hooked on C#Sep 06 20:01
Goldenearbut now C# is ecma, MS is not alone to be allowed to control it, isn't it ?Sep 06 20:02
schestowitzDo you know what ECMA is?Sep 06 20:03
Goldenearyes I do... what do you mean ?Sep 06 20:04
schestowitzIt's corrupt. it's a front for companies.Sep 06 20:06
Goldenearand what about ISO ?Sep 06 20:09
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schestowitzSame now that it was captured by a vendor, but not quite as bad.Sep 06 20:11
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schestowitzECMA is partly responsible for what happened to ISO.Sep 06 20:12
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Goldenearif java is a real challenger for mono, why is it not used for making Linux/gnome apps ?Sep 06 20:15
benJImanIt is.Sep 06 20:15
Goldeneardo you have example of a java/gnome application ?Sep 06 20:16
benJImanGoogle java-gnome there are some.Sep 06 20:16
GoldenearI can't find anySep 06 20:16
schestowitzRSSOwl.Sep 06 20:17
benJImanNot as many because it until recently mono was freer than java, and also mono has had more desktop sponsorship from novell.Sep 06 20:17
schestowitzIt uses Eclipse though.Sep 06 20:17
Goldenearis java really freer than mono now ?Sep 06 20:20
tessierOO.org uses JavaSep 06 20:21
Goldenearbut it's not a java appSep 06 20:22
Goldenearit only extents some of its functions in javaSep 06 20:22
tessierIt comes with java appsSep 06 20:22
benJImanThere are a few java-swt applications. e.g. eclipse, azureus. Fewer using java-gnome though.Sep 06 20:23
benJImanNot many qtjambi apps yet either, quite a new technology.Sep 06 20:24
GoldenearbenJIman: could you give me the name of one java-gnome application ?Sep 06 20:26
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schestowitzDefault?Sep 06 20:28
schestowitzhttp://www.linuxjournal.com/article/8111Sep 06 20:30
benJImanGoldenear: I don't use GNOME, don't really follow such things.Sep 06 20:30
benJImanHave you looked at their website?Sep 06 20:30
GoldenearyepSep 06 20:30
Goldenearwhat do you use benJIman ?Sep 06 20:32
GoldenearKDE ?Sep 06 20:32
benJImanYes.Sep 06 20:32
GoldenearI did tooSep 06 20:32
PetoKrausi can say i never used kde or gnomeSep 06 20:33
Goldenearbut I sadly had to admit that gnome seems to have won the Linux desktop as a standard... because of gtk LGPLSep 06 20:33
benJImanWell I might be tempted to use GNOME as I'd be more likely to contribute to it with mono than KDE with c++.Sep 06 20:34
benJImanBut there are some deal breakers.Sep 06 20:34
benJImanLike the dialogue buttons being the wrong way round.Sep 06 20:34
Goldenearwhat do you mean ?Sep 06 20:34
benJImanIn GNOME the "lose my work" button is where most of the computing world has the "save" button.Sep 06 20:35
benJImanOn every dialogue.Sep 06 20:35
PetoKrausthere's no consistency whatsoever even under gnome appsSep 06 20:35
GoldenearI din't notice thatSep 06 20:35
GoldenearPetoKraus: no consistency ?Sep 06 20:36
PetoKrausin the placement of "save / don't save / cancel" buttonsSep 06 20:36
schestowitzThere are icons.Sep 06 20:37
schestowitzCan't miss the nice green ones. Same in KDE.Sep 06 20:37
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PetoKrausone would have to get used to the fact, that "linux desktop" will be inconsistentSep 06 20:39
schestowitzInconsistency is prevalent in other systems too. Even OS/X. They have third parties.Sep 06 20:40
PetoKrausno, it's prevalent in windowsSep 06 20:41
schestowitzGuidelines are best obeyed and /controlled/ by the vendor controlling the platform and selling it.Sep 06 20:41
PetoKrausthough one thing is really missing from "linux desktop"Sep 06 20:42
PetoKrausclipboard working between qt and gtk apps, and terminal window, and, say, mozilla developed apps.Sep 06 20:42
Goldenearbutton placement in gnome is the same than in OS XSep 06 20:43
schestowitzOS X is golden standard?Sep 06 20:43
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Goldenearnop, neither windows ;)Sep 06 20:44
benJImanPutting the buttons in a different order to that 95% of users are trained to using is silly.Sep 06 20:44
benJImanNot to mention that humans read English left to right.Sep 06 20:44
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GoldenearI don't see anything wrong with the buttun placement in gnome, and I reade left to right....Sep 06 20:47
Goldenearbut it's just a question of tastes I guess :)Sep 06 20:47
schestowitzLike drivingSep 06 20:49
GoldenearlolSep 06 20:50
Goldenearexactly :)Sep 06 20:50
schestowitzNo right or wrong, unless it's defined by consistency, which changes across lands (or platforms)Sep 06 20:52
benJImanWell KDE will change button order depending on what style you choose. GNOME doesn't provide a facility to do this.Sep 06 20:54
benJImanIf using GNOME style or KDE apps in GNOME they will use the GNOME button order.Sep 06 20:54
benJImanGNOME apps just wrong in kde.Sep 06 20:54
MinceRimo the button order the GNOME HIG prescribes is dumb.Sep 06 20:55
Goldenearthen so it is in os XSep 06 20:56
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MinceRosx being retarded is not news :>Sep 06 21:32
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MinceRconfirmed, the osx button order is the same retarded one.Sep 06 21:41
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schestowitzScreenie?Sep 06 21:47
MinceRhttp://developer.apple.com/documen...Sep 06 21:48
schestowitzIt looks right to me.Sep 06 21:49
MinceRi find it annoying.Sep 06 21:51
schestowitzCastle uv' Jobs prescribes pixel separation between buttons. Or else!Sep 06 21:51
MinceRi could care less about pixel separation (except that it shouldn't really be measured in pixels...)Sep 06 21:52
MinceRputting cancel to the left of ok is what annoys meSep 06 21:53
schestowitzIt seems natural to me based on habit (I haven't used anything but KDE and GNOME for many years).Sep 06 21:56
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MinceRperhaps the retards at crapple haven't realized yet that most writing systems go from left to rightSep 06 21:58
MinceRand that people normally want to execute the action they initiateSep 06 21:59
schestowitzI dunno. How's cancel/allow sorted?Sep 06 22:00
MinceRi haven't seen that dialogSep 06 22:00
schestowitzMouse practice: http://www.egg-attack.com/ (context: http://fakesteve.blogspot.com/2008/05/... )Sep 06 22:00
MinceRi've only ever used vista onceSep 06 22:00
MinceReven that one time it failed horribly at unmounting an usb storage deviceSep 06 22:01
MinceRwe had to shut the damn thing downSep 06 22:01
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neighborleemy friend has vista, and only now with 4 gigs of ram does he find it liveable....I tried it and man was it a monstrositySep 06 22:08
schestowitzDRM sucks.... CPU and RAM.Sep 06 22:09
schestowitzBut the issues go beyond a DRM-riddles codebase, which they can't remove now.Sep 06 22:10
schestowitz*riddledSep 06 22:10
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kentmaschestowitz: I think all is well again at the server sideSep 06 22:29
schestowitzkentma: I'll post soon. Just been disracted lately.Sep 06 22:30
kentmaschestowitz: good, really - I've had a few problems :-)Sep 06 22:30
schestowitzWhat do you mean?Sep 06 22:31
kentmafailing disks - I've been zeroing blocks to force the disks to re-assign - and this is in a raid array...  irritatingSep 06 22:31
schestowitzThankfully I haven't had any issues accessing old posts. It must be ruining your weekend.Sep 06 22:38
Goldenearschestowitz: I found that about you : http://blog.ibeentoubuntu.com/2008/08/i...Sep 06 22:45
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schestowitzI beg to differ.Sep 06 22:51
GoldenearlolSep 06 22:52
Goldenearwhat I understand now is that fear about mono is due to hate against MS... mono as based on a MS technology is seen as a devil stuffSep 06 22:53
GoldenearIf mono really wants to clone .NET, then it's a bad ideaSep 06 22:53
Goldenearif mono mostly focus on GTK# and other things not directly MS related it could be fineSep 06 22:54
Goldenearalso let see what Vala will doSep 06 22:54
Goldenearit may change somethings about linux distros installing mono by defaultSep 06 22:56
schestowitzCan you elaborate on " hate against MS"?Sep 06 22:56
schestowitz[H]omer spoke about this label the other day ("hate"). This is about risk, not hate. Microsoft is the only company (other than SCO) that threatens GNU/Linux.Sep 06 22:57
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GoldenearHate against their commercial politicsSep 06 23:03
GoldenearHate againt the state of mind of MS CEOSep 06 23:03
schestowitzThat da!!Sep 06 23:03
Goldenear(I share all of this)Sep 06 23:04
schestowitzOops. Ignore me.Sep 06 23:04
schestowitzJust seen something scary.Sep 06 23:04
Goldenearwhat ? MS CEO ?Sep 06 23:04
GoldenearlolSep 06 23:04
schestowitzNo, I can't understand something.Sep 06 23:05
schestowitzI've just watched AWStats.Sep 06 23:05
schestowitzI says 28,000+ pageviews (excluding search engines) 0AM-7PM, but I can't figure out where it comes from.Sep 06 23:06
*Goldenear has quit ("Ex-Chat")Sep 06 23:10
benJImanHow many requests do you have in an average day, including feed requests?Sep 06 23:10
schestowitzI don't know. It depends on how it's counted.Sep 06 23:12
benJImanNumber of files requested.Sep 06 23:12
schestowitzBut anyway, it seems like people just read more. I can't figure out what caused it.Sep 06 23:12
schestowitzAbout 50,000 I think. Let me check.Sep 06 23:13
schestowitz66,000 on averageSep 06 23:13
benJImanOver 1/3 of planetsuse, impressive.Sep 06 23:13
benJImanThat must use a fair amount of bandwidth considering you use images quite a bit.Sep 06 23:14
schestowitzThe hosting account might need changed in a month or two because it grows. Shane is hardly on the Internet, sadly.Sep 06 23:15
schestowitzThe luv is here: http://www.tuxmachines.org/stats/index.htmlSep 06 23:16
benJImanWhat do you mean?Sep 06 23:16
schestowitzAbout Shane or Susan's site?Sep 06 23:17
benJImanWhy was susan's relevant?Sep 06 23:17
schestowitzIt declined this summer, but she's hugely popular and also one of my favourite news sources.Sep 06 23:18
benJImanI suspect susan doesn't read the planets either, she misses out on lots of things on the planets - like you do.Sep 06 23:19
schestowitzYes, probably.Sep 06 23:19
benJImanShe ususally posts a lot of blogs from random people with a few lines of content and misses the interesting developer blogs with actual content.Sep 06 23:21
schestowitzWell, she /does/  covers a lot of OpenSUSE, which she likes.Sep 06 23:21
benJImanNot really.Sep 06 23:21
benJImanIt's usually "I installed openSUSE. [end of blog]"Sep 06 23:22
benJImanShe really doesn't link anything from planetsuse unless it's linked on opensuse news.Sep 06 23:22
schestowitzThat too. It still goes deeper than LXer, LinuxToday and other aggregators.Sep 06 23:23
benJImanBest off subscribing to planet{kde,gnome,fedora,ubuntu,debian,suse} etc if you want interesting content.Sep 06 23:24
benJImanHardly any of it hits any of the aggregators.Sep 06 23:25
benJImanThe mono planet is called monologue btw.Sep 06 23:25
schestowitzMono. Mono!! Mono!!! No, thanks. :-)Sep 06 23:26
benJImanhttp://www.go-mono.com/monologue/ It's quite interesting quite often.Sep 06 23:26
benJImanAlthough most of them seem to develop on vista.Sep 06 23:26
schestowitzYes, because Novell isn't a believer in the Linux desktop,remember?Sep 06 23:27
benJImanThere are a lot of people there not employed by Novell, probably the majority.Sep 06 23:28
benJImanThe posts from the IKVM (java on .net) person are particularly interesting.Sep 06 23:28
schestowitzThis is big: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2...Sep 06 23:29
schestowitzContext: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/20/ca.../a>Sep 06 23:33
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