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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 9th, 2008

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dsmith_Lenovo ditches LinuxSep 09 00:23
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cjeep.  no more linux on lenovo?  That's too bad.  I was pretty impressed with my experience.Sep 09 00:43
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schestowitzLenovo was only offering Ballnux. Maybe they'll learn to shave off the Microsoft tax by offering GNU/Linux instead.Sep 09 05:03
dsmith_dunnoSep 09 05:12
schestowitzIt was semi-hearted with Microsoft tax. 09 05:14
schestowitzThey should resort those no-O/S options they have and eliminate the Microsoft tax altogether.Sep 09 05:15
dsmith_yea... freeDOSSep 09 05:15
schestowitzThe laptops are already officially certified for use with Ubuntu and Fedora. Putting 'Microsoft Linux' on them (without any other choice) isn't exactly a win. Either way, dsmith_, watch the article above again. Henry changed the headline because Lenovo denies it's  true.Sep 09 05:16
schestowitzI notice that they changed the headline because my RSS feeds don't have the same headlines as the page.Sep 09 05:17
dsmith_hmmmmSep 09 05:18
schestowitzHe thought of a sensationalist headline, but it could be a glitch, I suppose. We don't know yet.Sep 09 05:19
schestowitzThe 'bad guys' (poor Linux support and Windows firmware) are crumbling a bit: 09 05:22
dsmith_i have two old HP zt3000's I keep as spares, all distro's IO have tossed on them just workSep 09 05:22
schestowitzThe patent pirates from Philips/Sisvel will be sued: 09 05:23
dsmith_your stock market tanked todaySep 09 05:23
dsmith_what a messSep 09 05:23
schestowitzdsmith_: the market or the system?Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_either?Sep 09 05:23
schestowitzLet me check.Sep 09 05:23
dsmith_ftse??Sep 09 05:23
schestowitz It's upSep 09 05:24
dsmith_er... the system I meanSep 09 05:24
dsmith_I suppose I cna say it was downSep 09 05:25
dsmith_yea, thats rightSep 09 05:25
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Tallkenschestowitz away? oddSep 09 10:10
Tallken*offlineSep 09 10:10
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Tallkenhi schestowitzSep 09 11:54
Tallkenwhat I wanted to say yesterday to youSep 09 11:54
Tallkenwas that one of Google AdsSep 09 11:55
Tallkenon BNSep 09 11:55
Tallkenwas advertising Windows server xDSep 09 11:55
schestowitz*gasp* I thought Shane had blocked these. Damn. I sent him an E-mail asking if we can drop those ads altogether.Sep 09 12:00
schestowitzbrbSep 09 12:00
Tallkenschestowitz, will send ya the screenshotSep 09 12:02
TallkenwaitSep 09 12:02
Tallkenschestowitz, it wasn't directly MS adsSep 09 12:07
Tallkenit was to a company in Germany which sells Windows Server machinesSep 09 12:07
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schestowitz[back] Thanks. That's why it's tricky. We can block by domains, not product. I just want to get rid of the ads altogether, but Shane pays the bills, so I need to ask permission and he's rarely ever on the Internet.Sep 09 12:23
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Tallkenschestowitz, I'll send ya the fileSep 09 12:31
schestowitzIt's scary to see the site with ads (I don't see them).Sep 09 12:33
schestowitzEeek!Sep 09 12:33
TallkenLOLSep 09 12:33
TallkenAdblock?Sep 09 12:33
TallkenI don't use AdblockSep 09 12:33
schestowitzI've used 'it' before it even existed (it was a Mozilla hack in Firefox 0.9x)Sep 09 12:35
Tallken:PSep 09 12:35
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_Dougbenjiman: why is the GPL more restrictive that tha Ms-PL ?Sep 09 14:42
_DougWe are sorry, the page you requested cannot be foundSep 09 14:45
_Doug 09 14:46
schestowitz_Doug: I have n update on this: 09 14:48
_Doug"The software is licensed “as-is.” You bear the risk of using it" .. London Stock Exchange .. ?Sep 09 14:49
_Dougok I'll take a look ...Sep 09 14:49
_DougHaaaaa ....Sep 09 14:50
_DougThe supreme leader takes charge ..Sep 09 14:52
_Doug 09 14:52
_DougThat Seinfeld advert, it's only funny if you are pretending to be a dork ...Sep 09 14:53
schestowitz 09 14:55
_DougShelleytherepublican on Ubuntu ..Sep 09 14:56
_Doug 09 14:56
schestowitzYes, I got your mail: "Linux, as we all know, began life as a hobbyist operating system ? invented by conspiracy theorist Richard ?Stalin? Stallman so that he could have an operating system that was just as unfriendly as confusing as his word-processor ?e-Macs?"Sep 09 14:58
schestowitzIt's satirical, but some of its goes too far sometimes.Sep 09 14:58
_Dougyea .. but sometimes you can't tell the difference .. like the Russians quoting the Onion ..Sep 09 15:00
_Doug"As part of its strategy to win more trading business and new customers, the London Stock Exchange needed a scalable, reliable, high-performance stock exchange ticker plant to replace its earlier system. [...] Using the Microsoft€® .NET Framework in Windows Server€® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Serverâ„¢ 2000 database, the new Infolect€® system has been built to achieve unprecedented levels of performance, availabilitySep 09 15:00
_DougMaking People-Ready a RealitySep 09 15:00
schestowitzI wrote about that too. Have you seen it yet?Sep 09 15:01
_Doug 09 15:01
_DougI sure have ..Sep 09 15:01
schestowitzPeople-ready astroturfing: Michael Arrington, Om Malik and at least 3 other sellouts.Sep 09 15:01
_Doug"Systems should degrade gracefully under overload, NOT crash" -- well DOH !!!Sep 09 15:01
schestowitzPeople ready shills @ 09 15:02
_Doughow complicated is it to sell stocks, I mean technically ..Sep 09 15:02
schestowitz"Load" is an excuse.Sep 09 15:03
_Dougreliable multiple unites in a peering arrangment .. so if one goes out the others take over .. multiple data paths .. I mean its IT-101Sep 09 15:03
schestowitzIt worked fine a year ago. Has the system become smaller? Are people buying /more/ stock amid recession?Sep 09 15:04
_DougAn 'upgrade' is the most likely answerSep 09 15:04
_DougA closed box, and the left consultants standing around waiting for the servoce-pack from MSSep 09 15:05
_Doug"One hundred per cent reliable on high-volume trading days"Sep 09 15:06
schestowitz /Which/ days?Sep 09 15:11
_Dougbetween December 32 and January -2Sep 09 15:12
_Doug 09 15:12
_Dougback in ten ...Sep 09 15:12
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twitter:)Sep 09 15:17
schestowitzHey, buddy.Sep 09 15:18
twitterI won't be up often, my house won't have power until the 24th.Sep 09 15:18
schestowitzHow's Ike?Sep 09 15:18
twitterI have not looked at Ike yet.Sep 09 15:18
schestowitzJust liked to Poison PensSep 09 15:18
twitterthanks.Sep 09 15:19
schestowitzIn (it's a bad post, but I had to write something)Sep 09 15:19
twittercool, I have not collected as much as I'd like yet but it's a good start.Sep 09 15:19
schestowitzI need to sort out something too.Sep 09 15:20
schestowitzit's all over the place, but no single mental sh*tlistSep 09 15:20
twitterM$'s media influence is amazing.  When a paper publishes things they don't like, they get bought.  A recent example is the Gates Foundation buying the San Jose Mercury News.Sep 09 15:22
twitterRMS picked that one up and has linked to a few other not so nice actions by the Gates Foundation.Sep 09 15:22
twitterI've got a lot to catch up with.  The last week sucked.Sep 09 15:23
schestowitzYes, I heard about this "buy to comply" strategySep 09 15:23
schestowitzThere's lots more to it.Sep 09 15:23
twitterTheir influence though advertising dollars is substantial too.  What's really disturbing is when reporters are accidentally sent the file detailing everything the company thinks about them and how to get them to carry the message.Sep 09 15:25
schestowitzMicrosoft is taking over VMware via EMC: 09 15:26
_Dougtwitter: any RMS links re 'San Jose Mercury News'Sep 09 15:27
twitterI'll check it later.  My time on line today is more a proof of concept for me.  I've rigged a generator and I'm trying to tighten it up.Sep 09 15:28
twitterCox only got my house back up a couple of days ago.  I got the generator last night.Sep 09 15:28
schestowitzTough thing. Sorry to hear that.Sep 09 15:29
twitterIt's better than earthquakes.Sep 09 15:29
schestowitztessier would like to see 09 15:30
schestowitzYou mean "not as bad", right?Sep 09 15:30
twitterwell, got to go down for a while.  It was nice to say hello and I'll be back soon.Sep 09 15:31
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_DougMS patents electronic data snapshot generator ..Sep 09 15:31
_Doug 09 15:31
_Doug "A snapshot of electronic data is generated to provide information about a file at a specific point in time."Sep 09 15:31
PetoKrausisn't that... patenting a file?Sep 09 15:32
PetoKraus*storing a file?Sep 09 15:32
schestowitzYes, I sent this to PJ yesterday.Sep 09 15:32
_DougNovell Netware had this didn't they ?Sep 09 15:33
schestowitz 09 15:33
PetoKrausi guess just storing a file can be prior actSep 09 15:33
schestowitzGo ahead ans prove it.Sep 09 15:33
schestowitzWill cost you $$Sep 09 15:33
PetoKrausit's common sense, gods!Sep 09 15:34
PetoKraushow do you think the data are stored on drives? files are snapshots of electronic data themselves, in magnetic, or physical, or electrical (or any other) form, i guessSep 09 15:35
schestowitzDoes the patent cover stone and carving?Sep 09 15:36
PetoKrausit looks like ^^Sep 09 15:36
_DougIt covers remembering 'stuff' .. :)Sep 09 15:36
PetoKrauselectrically represented stuff, _DougSep 09 15:36
schestowitzThe Sisvel Commando could attack you for it! :-SSep 09 15:36
PetoKrausoh man. This needs to get off the deskSep 09 15:38
_Dougthe brain used bio-electrical energy ?Sep 09 15:38
schestowitzI feel violated ;-)Sep 09 15:38
schestowitzKind of Hypocrisy: "If people had understood how patents would be granted when most of today’s ideas were invented, and had taken out patents, the industry would be at a complete standstill today.” [..] some large company will patent some obvious thing [...] take as much of our profits as they want.” And here he is patenting smiley faces, Page Up/Down and file storage.Sep 09 15:40
_Dougremote execution vulnerability found in SCADA unit ..Sep 09 15:41
_Doug 09 15:41
_DougThis is so 2003 ...Sep 09 15:41
PetoKrausfacebooked that articleSep 09 15:42
schestowitzTwitter page used to pass malware: 09 15:43
_DougSCADA In-Security ..Sep 09 15:45
_Doug 09 15:45
schestowitz"Page 82 of 305"Sep 09 15:46
benJIman_Doug: As I said before it depends on your definition of Free. The GPL places more restrictions aimed at protecting freedom. You could say that less restrictive licences are freer in an anarchistic sense.Sep 09 15:47
_DougOh,, you got anarchist in a sentence with GPL .. :)Sep 09 15:48
schestowitzSo Windows-only is no restriction?Sep 09 15:48
_DougWhat's you definition of 'Free'Sep 09 15:49
_Dougaccording to the FSF: "the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee your freedom to share and change all versions of a program"Sep 09 15:50
_Doug"When we speak of free software, we are referring to freedom, not price"Sep 09 15:50
tessierschestowitz: Thanks.Sep 09 15:51
_Doug"o protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights"Sep 09 15:51
_DougbenJIman: quote the bits in the MS-PL and the GPL, contracting the differences in 'restrictions' ..Sep 09 15:53
_Dougcontrasting ..Sep 09 15:54
tessierMP3Tunes is being sued by EMI? He seems to be making a career of this.Sep 09 15:54
tessierBut he doesn't have any VC or other investors this time afaik so it won't be other peoples money he is losing.Sep 09 15:54
tessierI'm surprised hesi doing thisSep 09 15:55
benJIman_Doug: Well one example GPL has things like "If the work has interactive user interfaces, each must display Appropriate Legal Notices; however, if the Program has interactive interfaces that do not display Appropriate Legal Notices, your work need not make them do so." But you might as well jsut read both for yourself 09 15:55
benJImanI have no problem with the GPL, and would normally choose to license my work under that licence.Sep 09 15:56
schestowitztessier: yes, you told me about it before.Sep 09 15:56
_Doug"Appropriate Legal Notices", what's restrictive about that ?Sep 09 15:58
_Doug"keep intact all notices"Sep 09 15:59
_DougDo I strip off all references to the developers, a bit like Larry Ellison did to Red Hat ?Sep 09 16:00
benJIman_Doug: It is a restriction. I did not comment as to whether it was a bad restriction.Sep 09 16:00
_DougWhat is it restricting YOU from doing that the MS-PL isn't restricting YOU from doing. Can you strip off all reference to Microsoft from its shared source offering ?Sep 09 16:02
schestowitzbenJIman: whose side are you on? You do realise what those licences are for, right?Sep 09 16:02
schestowitzit only adds to my suspicion that OpenSUSE folks, much like Novell, just leverage FOSS to their advantage at the exclusion of  others.Sep 09 16:03
benJImanschestowitz: Of course. I think most of the GPLs restrictions are necessary. GPL is one of my favourite licences.Sep 09 16:03
schestowitzOther being...?Sep 09 16:04
schestowitz*othersSep 09 16:04
benJImanI was merely pointing out that the GPL does have more restrictions than other licences such as the MS-PL. Only a statement of fact, not a comment on their relative worth.Sep 09 16:04
benJImanI would not choose the MS-PL mostly because it's entirely untested legally for a start.Sep 09 16:04
_DougbenJIman: In telation to "Appropriate Legal Notices", where is MS-PL less restrictive, quote the actual test ..Sep 09 16:05
benJImanlgpl, agpl, some of the creative commons licences, etcSep 09 16:05
benJIman_Doug: How can I quote the absence of something.Sep 09 16:05
_Doug:)Sep 09 16:05
_DougOK, give me one more example of 'restrictions' in the GPL that are not in the MS-PL ..Sep 09 16:06
benJImanI already gave you one, and I can't really be bothered to argue with you as it is an entirely pointless discussion. The additional restrictions in the GPL are a good thing not bad.Sep 09 16:07
_DougIt's deemed good manners in a discussion to produce evidence in favor of your point, else not introduces it .. eg:Sep 09 16:08
_DougbenJIman: there are restrictions in the GPL not in the MS-PL. Doug: name them. benJIman: I really can't be bothered ...Sep 09 16:08
benJIman_Doug: I already provided one example which you didn't refute.Sep 09 16:09
_DougOK, what would you like to talk about .. SCADA ?Sep 09 16:09
_DougPutting a sticker on a machine isn't restrictive after all I have one that says 'Intel Inside' and Vista ready .. :)Sep 09 16:10
_DougNothing will remove them .. :)Sep 09 16:10
_DougLAst time I tried on a different machine, I totally scratched the surface :)Sep 09 16:10
_DougThe cops are restricting my freedom to mug old ladies .. where can I go with more freedom ?Sep 09 16:12
_DougColumbia ? .. $50 for a hitman .. :)Sep 09 16:12
_DougbenJIman: define your terms ...Sep 09 16:14
benJIman_Doug: The law is indeed restrictions.Sep 09 16:16
benJImanIt stops you from doing things that you would otherwise be allowed to do. That doesn't mean that the restrictions of the law are a bad thing.Sep 09 16:16
_Dougwhat's the opposite of restrictions ?Sep 09 16:16
benJImanAbsence of restrictions.Sep 09 16:17
_Dougrights ..Sep 09 16:17
benJImanNo I wouldn't say rights are the opposite of restrictions.Sep 09 16:17
_Dougthe law confers on old ladies the right not to get mugged in the street .. there .. that's itSep 09 16:17
_DougWell the actual test refers to 'rights'Sep 09 16:18
_Dougtext ..Sep 09 16:18
PetoKrauswell, it's more of a restriction which forbids you to mug anyoneSep 09 16:18
PetoKrausthan a right not to get mugged.Sep 09 16:18
_Doug"To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these rights or asking you to surrender the rights"Sep 09 16:18
_DougI could put up a toal and charge peopel for walking down my street .. excpet the law prevents this ..Sep 09 16:19
_DougThat's a right-of-way for the rest of her Majes subjects ..Sep 09 16:19
_Dougok: restriction, rights, freedom .. forget about it ..Sep 09 16:21
_Dougback in ten .. and have something interesting to talk about ..Sep 09 16:21
benJIman_Doug: No that's still a restriction, but a beneficial one.Sep 09 16:26
benJImanMuch like the GPL's restrictionsSep 09 16:27
_DougsnooooozzzzzzzzSep 09 16:31
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schestowitzAnother win for GNU/Linux: 09 16:45
_Doug"Debian GNU/Linux is one of the free libre operating systems"Sep 09 16:46
schestowitz"SUSE GNU/Linux is One of the Free (gratis) Liveâ„¢ operating systems (with Mono)"Sep 09 16:49
tessier_benJIman: I like the few restrictions the GPL has. Your rights end where mine begin etc.Sep 09 16:52
benJImantessier_: Quite.Sep 09 16:52
_Doug"The London Stock Exchange is back to normal after a software glitch on Monday halted trading for the longest period in eight years"Sep 09 16:59
_Doug"LSE trading halted by connectivity failure ..The shutdown came amid a surge in share trading"Sep 09 16:59
schestowitzHaSep 09 16:59
schestowitzSource?Sep 09 16:59
_Doug"The London Stock Exchange Group PLC said Tuesday that a software glitch - and not high trading volumes - was to blame for a seven-hour shutdown that angered customers on one of the busiest days of the year on world equity markets"Sep 09 16:59
schestowitz"software glitch"Sep 09 16:59
_Doug 09 16:59
_Doug 09 17:00
_Doug 09 17:00
_DougSPIN~1 ... ?Sep 09 17:00
schestowitzThere was a lot of Spinola in COLA (hey, it rhymes.Sep 09 17:01
_Douga software glitch, not a software glitch, a 'connevtivity' proble, a surge in trades, not a surge in trades ...Sep 09 17:01
_DougI'M CONFUSED ..Sep 09 17:01
_Doug"London Stock Exchange confirms it was a software issue that brought down its systems"Sep 09 17:02
_Doug 09 17:02
schestowitzI added: "Microsoft needs to rip down its "get the facts" pages. It's false advertising. Maybe the ASA should be informed."Sep 09 17:02
_Dougwhen software upgrades go wrong ...Sep 09 17:02
_Doug“It was actually a software issue, and not one to do with hardware as some in the media have suggested. This is why we couldn’t switch over to our backup hardware.”Sep 09 17:03
schestowitzMaybe the left side of the mouth is Steel, Ballmer and the cronies. The other admits the truth.Sep 09 17:03
_Dougillogical captain ... dave I'm losing my mind .. danger Will Roberson ...Sep 09 17:03
tessier_Someone remind me why Linux can't use ZFS even as a module...Sep 09 17:04
schestowitzFUSeSep 09 17:04
tessier_You can load proprietary modules.Sep 09 17:04
tessier_Fuse is a toy, not something you would use on a real file server.Sep 09 17:04
tessier_I use and like Fuse for sshfs and other things.Sep 09 17:04
schestowitztessier: let me find you some linksSep 09 17:04
tessier_But it's going to be way too slow for a real disk systemSep 09 17:04
*tessier_ works for a disk system integrator now and we use tons of LinuxSep 09 17:05
schestowitzI put many here: 09 17:05
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_Doug"Chalmers also said the current generation of application performance monitoring systems .. are poor when it comes to identifying problems in the code which joins all the parts together. And this is often where many of the glitches actually reside"Sep 09 17:06
schestowitzHaha. Updates from COLA:Sep 09 17:06
schestowitz 09 17:06
schestowitz"...The LSE said the inquiry would attempt to discover why it took almost a whole day to repair its trading system"Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz"This happens two or three times a year"Sep 09 17:07
_Doug"the code which joins all the parts", that's way too technical for me .. :)Sep 09 17:07
schestowitzSo Microsoft was lying all along.Sep 09 17:07
schestowitzNo prosecution I suppose.Sep 09 17:07
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benJImanschestowitz: It doesn't say the flaw was with microsoft software.Sep 09 17:07
schestowitz"In June last year the LSE switched from its 10-year-old Sets system in favour of a new platform called TradElect, which runs on Microsoft software. TradElect was hailed as a huge advance in an increasingly competitive market, primarily by reducing the time taken to complete a trade from 140 milliseconds to 10 milliseconds..."Sep 09 17:07
schestowitzbenJIman: it doesn't say your name is Funkenbusch, either.Sep 09 17:08
schestowitzThe system comes as a whole system. It doesn't happen in Wall Street. How come?Sep 09 17:08
benJImanMore likely to be their trading software.Sep 09 17:08
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schestowitz Simon Denham, founder of Capital Spreads, said; "It (trading) went down at 8.44 am. This happens on the LSE two or three times a year..."Sep 09 17:09
tessier_Lustre and Nexenstor or someone like that claims their Linux based systems support ZFS. How is that possible?Sep 09 17:10
_Dougis ZFS important right now :)Sep 09 17:11
_Doug"An LSE spokesperson said "connectivity issues" meant traders could not connect with the LSE trading platform"Sep 09 17:11
schestowitz_Doug: that's like blaming the network company/ISP for a fried mobo.Sep 09 17:12
schestowitz"Hello. I have a problem with the Internet. I can't power up my computer."Sep 09 17:13
_DougIsn't a five-nines stock trading system supposed to have multiple 'connectivity' paths ?Sep 09 17:14
benJIman_Doug: That was an early report, they later stated it was a software problem.Sep 09 17:14
benJImanBut didn't state whether the problem was in the microsoft stack or their own software on top of it.Sep 09 17:14
_DougI mean the Ugandan one makes do with telephones and five screens ?Sep 09 17:14
schestowitz" I was not involved with BT and Phorm, then or now. Everything I know about Phorm and BT's relationship with Phorm came from the same news articles you read. I have not gotten involved as an employee of BT. But anything I say is -- by definition -- said by a BT executive. That's not good."Sep 09 17:14
schestowitzbenJIman: tell it to the Chinese with the BSoDs in the olympicsSep 09 17:15
schestowitzIt wasn't a hardware fault.Sep 09 17:15
schestowitz 09 17:16
_DougbenJIman: which one ?Sep 09 17:17
benJIman_Doug: The connectivity issue was the earlier report.Sep 09 17:17
schestowitzbenJIman: the system was down.Sep 09 17:17
schestowitzMicrosoft lied.Sep 09 17:17
schestowitzOnce again you're showing your true colours.Sep 09 17:18
_DougOK ?Sep 09 17:18
_Doug benJIman: who is this funkenbush ?Sep 09 17:19
_Dougso there was *no* 'connectivity issue', they're just waffling , yea ?Sep 09 17:20
benJIman_Doug: So it would seem.Sep 09 17:21
benJImanschestowitz: They have not said that microsoft's system was down.Sep 09 17:21
benJImanIt might be the case.Sep 09 17:21
_Dougwhat's the reference to funkenbush ?Sep 09 17:21
benJIman_Doug: I have no idea.Sep 09 17:21
schestowitzWhat /else/ is on that system?Sep 09 17:22
schestowitzIt's a Microsoft stack on commodity hardware. it was not a hardware fault.Sep 09 17:22
_DougbenJIman: are you this funkenbush ?Sep 09 17:23
benJImanschestowitz: They have their own trading software that runs on top of the microsoft stack.Sep 09 17:24
benJImanThe fault could equally well be with that.Sep 09 17:24
benJImanUntill they say then who knows.Sep 09 17:24
schestowitzI see you've done a fair share of Microsoft apologism, benJIman, e.g. 09 17:24
benJImanI fail to see how that is microsoft apologism.Sep 09 17:25
_DougbenJIman: it's a .net system isn't it, what's the name again ?Sep 09 17:26
benJIman_Doug: Because something's implemented on the .net platform does't mean the problem is with .net.Sep 09 17:27
_DougInfolect€® that's it ..Sep 09 17:28
_DougSo, if it runs on .net, and it breaks, and it's a software bug, then it can't be .net, I see :)Sep 09 17:28
_DougWhich parts of Infolect don't run on .net ?Sep 09 17:29
benJImanIt's like hearing there's a car accident and immediately blaming the road. The road may be at fault due to poor surfacing, blind bends, or other hazards, but it could equally well be down to the car or the driver.Sep 09 17:29
_DougSorry, you state it isn't a .net problem, please provide evidence as to this accertation ?Sep 09 17:30
schestowitzbenJIman: you're spreading a lot of  hostile stuff today. Are you here only to antagonise everything?Sep 09 17:31
benJIman_Doug: I did not state it isn't a .net problem.Sep 09 17:31
benJIman_Doug: I stated that we cannot know whether or not it is a .net problem.Sep 09 17:31
benJImanUntil more information is made available.Sep 09 17:31
schestowitzIt's unlikely to be made available (at that level)Sep 09 17:32
benJImanschestowitz: Hostile? I have only been responding to questions or pointing out factual inaccuracies.Sep 09 17:32
schestowitzSo you're here as a sort of moderator?Sep 09 17:33
_DougbenJIman: if you don't know then how can you state it isn't a .net problem. The whole system is Windows+SQL+dotNET. What other non-Microsoft software is involved. Please provide examples ..Sep 09 17:33
benJIman_Doug: Please read what I write. I never stated it isn't a .net problem.Sep 09 17:34
benJImanIt could well be.Sep 09 17:34
_Dougyou said it *is* a .net problem .. :)Sep 09 17:34
_Doug "As part of its strategy to win more trading business and new customers, the London Stock Exchange needed a scalable, reliable, high-performance stock exchange ticker plant to replace its earlier system. [...] Using the Microsoft€® .NET Framework in Windows Server€® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Serverâ„¢ 2000 database, the new Infolect€® system has been built to achieve unprecedented levels of performance, availabilitSep 09 17:34
benJIman_Doug: Err... what?Sep 09 17:35
schestowitzbenJIman: your spin serves not OpenSUSE; it serves Novell & Partner.Sep 09 17:35
_DougbenJIman: what other agile software platform could be the source of the problem ?Sep 09 17:35
benJImanschestowitz: What spin? I am simply pointing out there is insufficient information to blame Microsoft here.Sep 09 17:35
_DougbenJIman: what other software ?Sep 09 17:35
benJImanYou are the one making a conclusion that is unsubstantiated by the available evidence.Sep 09 17:35
benJIman_Doug: Their software built on top of .net.Sep 09 17:36
_Dougyea ?Sep 09 17:36
schestowitzIs Alfresco shedding off staff? "Alfresco, the leading open source alternative for enterprise content management systems, today announced that it has appointed Jeff Nott as its new Territory Sales Manager for Northern Europe."Sep 09 17:36
benJIman_Doug: Which is not .net itself.Sep 09 17:37
schestowitzSeems like increased demand rather. :-) It's a new positionSep 09 17:37
_Douga software 'upgrade' that they couldn't recover from ..Sep 09 17:37
schestowitzbenJIman: there *is* pretty much enough evidence.Sep 09 17:37
_DougbenJIman: explain how a .net application isn't a .net application ?Sep 09 17:38
benJIman_Doug: a .net application is not part of the .net stack, and microsoft is not responsible for third party software.Sep 09 17:38
_Dougnot what I asked ..Sep 09 17:38
benJImanI didn't say that it isn't a .net application.Sep 09 17:39
benJImanWould you blame java because a java application crashes?Sep 09 17:39
_Dougyou answered: is the application part of the .net stack .. :)Sep 09 17:39
benJImanYou are not making sense.Sep 09 17:40
_DougIf the LSE doesn't run on the Microsoft€® .NET Framework, then what does it run on ?Sep 09 17:40
benJImanIt does. But that does not mean that that is where the problem lies.Sep 09 17:40
_DougOK, where does the problem lie, please tell, us and the LSE, where were you yesterday and the last times it happened ?Sep 09 17:41
_Doug"Using the Microsoft€® .NET Framework in Windows Server€® 2003 and the Microsoft SQL Serverâ„¢ 2000 database, the new Infolect€® "Sep 09 17:41
benJIman_Doug: My point was that you cannot know that it was in part of the Microsoft stack.Sep 09 17:42
benJImanIt could be with their trading software that runs on top of .net.Sep 09 17:42
_DougI'm asking you what you know.Sep 09 17:42
benJImanI know that there is insufficient information to conclude that the fault lies with Microsoft software.Sep 09 17:43
_DougWhy is 'trading software that runs on top of .net' not part of .net ?Sep 09 17:43
benJImanMicrosoft is not responsible for software third parties implement on top of .net.Sep 09 17:43
_DougWhy is 'trading software that runs on top of .net' not part of .net ?Sep 09 17:43
_Dougnot who is responciple ..Sep 09 17:44
benJImanI write java applications, that does not mean that Sun is responsible for bugs in my applications.Sep 09 17:44
benJImanMy applications are not part of java.Sep 09 17:44
_Dougtechnically speaking, explain how 'trading software that runs on top of .net' not part of .net ?Sep 09 17:44
benJImanSame with software written on .net.Sep 09 17:44
_Douganalogy with Java not needed ..Sep 09 17:44
benJImanIf it's not needed then you understand?Sep 09 17:44
_Dougexplain how 'trading software that runs on top of .net' not part of .net ? give us the technicalitiesSep 09 17:44
benJImanMicrosoft develop and distribute the .net platform. Developers including myself can create software that runs on top of .netSep 09 17:45
benJImanTHat does not make our software part of .net.Sep 09 17:45
benJImanAny more than native applications are part of the operating system.Sep 09 17:45
_DougA fuel pump fails because of ICE, but don't blame Beoing cause it's not part of the airframe .. :)Sep 09 17:45
benJImanIf the fault were with the framework then it would indeed be Microsoft's fault.Sep 09 17:46
benJImanIf the bug were in my application then it would not beSep 09 17:46
_DougYOu mean the AirFrame, don't you . .:)Sep 09 17:46
_DougWhat is it you do again ?Sep 09 17:46
benJImanI am a software developer.Sep 09 17:46
benJImanI don't understand what you don't understand here.Sep 09 17:47
_DougEver come across a bug in a module ?Sep 09 17:47
benJImanIf I write my own software and happen to run it on the .net platform you think it is Microsoft's fault if my software is buggy?Sep 09 17:47
_DougYou software fails because of this, is it your faut or the maker of the module ?Sep 09 17:47
_Douglets assume there's a bug in the moduleSep 09 17:48
benJImanIn which case it would be the author of that component's fault.Sep 09 17:48
PetoKrauslol: 09 17:48
benJImanIn this case we do not know where in the stack the fault occurred.Sep 09 17:48
benJImanergo we cannot conclude whether or not it is Microsoft's fault.Sep 09 17:48
_DougOK: so between friday and monday a programmer wrote code that trashed the LSE for a whole day. Is that your theory ?Sep 09 17:48
benJIman_Doug: No.Sep 09 17:49
_DougWhat is it then ?Sep 09 17:49
benJIman_Doug: The LSE run a software stack composed of software written by Microsoft and other vendors. They have not stated whether the fault lied in Microsoft's part of the stack.Sep 09 17:49
_DougWhat other vendors ?Sep 09 17:49
benJIman_Doug: So we do not know. It might be Microsoft's fault, it might be someone else'sSep 09 17:49
_DougbenJIman: what other vendors :)Sep 09 17:50
benJIman_Doug: They have their own software system called TradElectSep 09 17:50
benJImanI believe it was developed in house.Sep 09 17:50
benJIman 09 17:50
_DougI thought it was  Infolect€® ?Sep 09 17:51
benJImanI think that's part of it.Sep 09 17:51
benJImanNot sure, there are some technical whitepapers there if yo uare interested.Sep 09 17:51
_DougbenJIman: So, a programming error took down the entire London Stock Exchange .. yeaSep 09 17:52
_DougWOW !!!Sep 09 17:52
benJIman_Doug: Quite possible.Sep 09 17:52
_DougbenJIman: what's the name of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:53
benJImanThe point is that we don't know.Sep 09 17:53
benJIman_Doug: What other companies.Sep 09 17:53
_Doughow do you mean we don't know .. are you being serious here just do a goole on it ...Sep 09 17:54
benJImanI don't understand what you're arguing here _Doug. Are you claiming that you know 100% certain that the LSE going down was Microsoft's faultSep 09 17:54
_DougI'm not arguing, what are the names of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:54
benJIman_Doug: What other companies?Sep 09 17:54
_DougThe other companies involved in the LSE apart from Microsoft .. :)Sep 09 17:55
benJImanTradeelect was I believe an inhouse developent for LSE or at least commissioned by them. I'm fairly sure it is not a Microsoft product.Sep 09 17:55
_DougWhat are the names of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:55
benJImanThe LSE is not microsoft.Sep 09 17:55
benJImanThat is one other company.Sep 09 17:55
benJImanI didn't mention any other.Sep 09 17:55
_DougWhat are the names of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:55
_DougThat crashed the LSE .. ;)Sep 09 17:55
*mib_g4am4e (i=5496d258@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 17:55
_DougI *know* that is why I am asking you .. What are the names of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:56
benJImanIt might be due to microsoft software, it might be due to a problem with their own tradeelect software, it might be a systems management problem. The point is we do not know. Do you dispute this ?Sep 09 17:56
_DougAre you afraid of libel ?Sep 09 17:56
_DougWhat are the names of these other companies ?Sep 09 17:56
_DougGoogle on it .. go on .. we'll wait ..Sep 09 17:56
benJImanPlease answer my question first. There is no point going around in circles.Sep 09 17:56
benJImanDo you or do you not dispute my assertion that we cannot know for certain that it was a problem with Microsoft software?Sep 09 17:57
_DougOk, if I answeer you question first will you answer my question ?Sep 09 17:57
benJImanIf you ask a question that makes sense, and actually listen to the answer.Sep 09 17:57
_DougI can't dispute a negative, if could have been sun-spot activity or space aliens .. :)Sep 09 17:58
benJImanIt was not a negative.Sep 09 17:58
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 17:58
benJIman_Doug: Do you claim to know for certain that the fault lies with Microsoft software?Sep 09 17:58
_DougI clain to know nothing, you assert it isn't MS, I ask you to support you claims, it isn't up to me to prove you wrong, fuddie .. :)Sep 09 18:00
_Doug: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:00
benJIman_Doug: Wrong. I never asserted it isn't MS.Sep 09 18:00
_Doug: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:00
benJImanIf you don't read what I write what's the point of my answering. I never claimed that it was not Microsoft's fault.Sep 09 18:00
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:00
_DougWhy can't you anser, you reference thord party software, what software, what is it's name, who wrote it ?Sep 09 18:01
benJIman_Doug: I'm not going to answer while you deliberately lie about what I say.Sep 09 18:01
_DougbenJImanSep 09 18:01
benJIman"18:13:49 < _Doug> I clain to know nothing, you assert it isn't MS," WRONGSep 09 18:02
schestowitzLike iSoft in the NHS?Sep 09 18:02
schestowitzYou mean, those PCs that CRAHED during operations.Sep 09 18:02
schestowitzAnd sites that went down..?Sep 09 18:02
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:02
schestowitzThat would not be Microsoft's fault, would it?Sep 09 18:02
schestowitziSoft made Windows BSoD,..Sep 09 18:02
benJIman_Doug: I will answer when you acknowledge that I do not assert that it is not Microsoft's fault.Sep 09 18:02
schestowitzAnd those Diebold machines too... Diebold plagued these with viruses and had screen freezes, as reported by Wired magazine.Sep 09 18:03
_DougHaaaa .. you are really something ;)Sep 09 18:03
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:03
schestowitzUSB handling and Wi-FI too must be implemented by Diebold from scratch.Sep 09 18:03
benJIman_Doug: In that case I will not continue to converse with you, every response I make you lie about and claim I say things that I do not. It is just a waste of time.Sep 09 18:03
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:03
benJImanAnd if you had actually bothered to read what I have been saying you would see that I have already answered that particular question.Sep 09 18:04
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:04
benJImanSo see the scrollback.Sep 09 18:04
_Doughumor me .. :)Sep 09 18:05
benJIman18:03:57 < _Doug> benJIman: what other vendors :)Sep 09 18:05
benJIman18:03:59 < benJIman> _Doug: They have their own software system called TradElectSep 09 18:05
benJIman18:04:05 < benJIman> I believe it was developed in house.Sep 09 18:05
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:05
benJImanMicrosoft and LSE are the ones I am aware of, as I stated earlier. There are probably others.Sep 09 18:05
_DougLSE isn't a software company, it's the Stock Exchange ..Sep 09 18:06
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:06
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the software companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:06
benJIman_Doug: Companies do not have to be software companies to develop software.Sep 09 18:07
benJImanI work as a softare developer for a media company.Sep 09 18:07
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:07
benJImanLSE and Microsoft.Sep 09 18:08
benJImanAnd possibly others.Sep 09 18:08
_DougWhat are the names of the other companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:08
benJImanThey are the only ones that I am aware of.Sep 09 18:08
_DougWhy can't you say their name(s), ?Sep 09 18:08
benJImanI already did...Sep 09 18:09
_DougWhat came up :)Sep 09 18:09
benJImanWhy are you ignoring my answers?Sep 09 18:09
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE ?Sep 09 18:09
benJImanLSE and Microsoft.Sep 09 18:09
_Doughow many time have I asked that (50) ?Sep 09 18:09
benJImanAnd how many times have I answered that (50) ?Sep 09 18:09
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:09
benJImanIf you're going to make a point then make it.Sep 09 18:09
benJIman_Doug: I am not aware of any others.Sep 09 18:09
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:10
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:10
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:10
benJImanThere may be some, there may not.Sep 09 18:10
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:10
benJImanschestowitz: Perhaps you should kick _Doug as he is just repeating himself.Sep 09 18:10
_DougHaaaaSep 09 18:10
_DougWhat are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:10
_DougbenJIman: What are the names of the companies involved in the LSE not called Microsoft and LSE?Sep 09 18:11
mib_g4am4egeez, what part of his answer don't you understand?Sep 09 18:11
_DougbenJIman: is Accenture involved ?Sep 09 18:11
benJImanI have no idea.Sep 09 18:11
benJImanIt might be.Sep 09 18:11
schestowitz_Doug: I think it might.Sep 09 18:11
_DougHaaaaa ... you are so totally made !!!Sep 09 18:12
schestowitzI saw something about them the other day, but maybe it wasn't LSE-related.Sep 09 18:12
schestowitzLet me check.Sep 09 18:12
benJImanRiiiiiiiight.Sep 09 18:12
schestowitzLondon Stock Exchange partners with Microsoft and Accenture to deliver key market data 09 18:12
schestowitzHa!Sep 09 18:12
schestowitzAccenture Case Study: London Stock Exchange-Data Warehouse 09 18:12
benJImanWell there you go.Sep 09 18:13
_Doug"Accenture built the Tradelect platform in India between late 2004 and March this year"Sep 09 18:13
_DougThat explains it, al lthe callcenter staff in India were sleeping ..Sep 09 18:13
schestowitz31 May 2007 - 16:12 : London Stock Exchange brings IT operations back in-house :The London Stock Exchange has decided not to extend its IT outsourcing contract with Accenture, and will bring its day-to-day IT operations back in-house as part of a new technology roadmap. 09 18:13
schestowitzOutsourcing.Sep 09 18:13
_DougbenJIman: why couldn't you say Accenture ?Sep 09 18:14
benJIman_Doug: Because I was not aware that they had been contracted to develop it for LSE.Sep 09 18:14
schestowitz"Success story" : 09 18:14
_DougbenJIman: Was it the Accenture software written in India that was at fault in yesterdays crashSep 09 18:14
schestowitzOops! This one just vanished: 09 18:15
_Doug"<benJIman>: _Doug: Because I was not aware" now who is telling porkies ;)Sep 09 18:15
benJIman_Doug: There is insufficient data upon which to make that determination.Sep 09 18:15
schestowitzNo Google cache.Sep 09 18:15
benJImanIt may have been, it may equally well have been a problem with Microsoft's stack, or it might have been a system admin problem.Sep 09 18:15
schestowitzLondon Stock Exchange: Data Warehouse: 09 18:15
_DougWhat do you do, when not trolling BN ?Sep 09 18:15
benJImanMy original point was that we do not know. Which you seem to have trouble understanding.Sep 09 18:15
schestowitzOh!Sep 09 18:16
schestowitzMary Jo Foley has just posted about it: 09 18:16
schestowitz"Did Microsoft tech play a part in London Stock Exchange meltdown?"Sep 09 18:16
schestowitz"Microsoft lists the LSE as one of its touted customers, as profiled among its “Get the Facts” case studies. From Microsoft’s LSE case study, dated 2006:"Sep 09 18:16
schestowitzSPINOLA: "I asked Microsoft whether failure of any of its technologies contributed to the nearly seven-hour LSE failure. “We are working closely with the London Stock Exchange to understand the root cause of the problem,” a Microsoft spokeswoman said, via a prepared statement."Sep 09 18:17
_Douggot to go be back later ..Sep 09 18:17
benJImanDon't rush.Sep 09 18:17
schestowitzTranlsation: we are unable to rule ourselves out, but we are working on "damage control' PRSep 09 18:17
schestowitz""According to the Wall Street Journal, Monday’s outage was the second major technical failure for the LSE in less than a year.Sep 09 18:18
schestowitz"The Journal noted that problems with the TradeElect platform, which the LSE developed _____in conjunction with Microsoft_________ and deployed in 2007, also may have played a role in the latest London Exchange failure."Sep 09 18:18
_DougbenJIman: what distros do you use ?Sep 09 18:28
benJIman_Doug: openSUSE.Sep 09 18:39
schestowitzWhy not SLED?Sep 09 18:39
benJImanBecause it's old, and wasn't based on a particularly good release. Plus I can't contribute to it directly.Sep 09 18:41
_DougNo more openSuSE from Levono .. 09 18:52
schestowitzThey will hopefully do it properly when they launch their notebook (netbook), probably with Ubuntu RemixSep 09 18:53
schestowitzOr Linpus (Fedora) IIRC. No MS patent tax...Sep 09 18:54
_DougLenovo - Preloaded Linux models, There were no items matching your search.Sep 09 18:55
_Doug 09 18:55
_Doughow is SLED older that openSuSE ?Sep 09 18:56
schestowitzIt's based on an older codebase.Sep 09 18:57
schestowitzOpenSUSE 11.0 was successful... more than predecessors if reviews are anything to go by.Sep 09 18:57
schestowitz9.2, 3 was good too.Sep 09 18:58
_DougI would inagine that "SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10" would be more advanced then the openSuSE version?Sep 09 18:58
schestowitzIt's a failure for all I can tell. Novell loses money on it because rival east its lunch.Sep 09 18:59
schestowitzeatSep 09 18:59
benJIman_Doug: It's the same software really.Sep 09 18:59
benJIman_Doug: Usually a SLE release is based on an openSUSE x.1 release.Sep 09 18:59
benJImanIt's like a snapshot of openSUSE but maintained for longer. And they do service packs with new features throughout the lifecycle too.Sep 09 19:00
schestowitzYou beat me to it, but there's also a nice box.Sep 09 19:00
benJImanopenSUSE comes in a box too.Sep 09 19:01
_Doug"If you want the Linux that works best with Windows and that won't constrict your ability to support your business, partner with the company that's partnering with Microsoft."Sep 09 19:01
MinceRit would be nice if it didn't have a novell logo on it :>Sep 09 19:01
schestowitzYou can do that.Sep 09 19:01
schestowitzPay a toll though.Sep 09 19:01
benJImanMinceR: Lots of openSUSE stuff has AMD logo on too now, not sure about the box.Sep 09 19:01
_Doug"constrict your ability to support your business", sounds like a veiled threat to me ?Sep 09 19:01
MinceRso AMD is buying into the patent racket too?Sep 09 19:01
schestowitz 09 19:01
benJImanMinceR: No, AMD supports openSUSE financially.Sep 09 19:02
MinceRi think buying suse will at least attempt to constrict that abilitySep 09 19:02
MinceRas it is supporting parties who are trying to kill the platform you're buying into.Sep 09 19:02
schestowitzI double-pasted, sorry. 09 19:02
_DougI can do a Larry Ellison and strip off al the Novell logos and sell it as _DougsOnenSuSE .. :)Sep 09 19:02
benJIman_Doug: You may.Sep 09 19:02
MinceRi doubt they'll let you call it *SuSE thoughSep 09 19:03
schestowitz_Doug: not for free.Sep 09 19:03
benJIman_Doug: There are included utilities to assist with removing branding and remastering too.Sep 09 19:03
_DougSuZE ?Sep 09 19:03
MinceRSuZE is still asking for a lawsuit imo.Sep 09 19:03
schestowitzYou need to have access to the source code first. It's not free. Novell build fences for the cloneSLEDsSep 09 19:03
_DougbenJIman: legal rebranding ?Sep 09 19:03
benJImanSuSE is not pronounced SuZE.Sep 09 19:03
_Dougmine is :)Sep 09 19:04
schestowitzSouza.Sep 09 19:04
MinceRSauce.Sep 09 19:04
_Doug_Dougs openSuZE ..Sep 09 19:04
benJImanschestowitz: Which I believe is a strategic mistake.Sep 09 19:04
MinceROpenSauce.Sep 09 19:04
MinceR(and the slogan would be "MOAR!")Sep 09 19:04
_DougNovell have effectively make openSuSE a backwater, you're wasting your time there.Sep 09 19:07
_DougThe support forum is mostly dead ..Sep 09 19:07
_DougbenJIman: what other distros have you tried ?Sep 09 19:11
benJIman_Doug: I have several images in VMs. I play with new releases when they come out and sometimes need to test things on debian systems etc.Sep 09 19:12
_DougI'm wary of VM, besides which, with hardware so cheap, it's simpler to put each in it's own box ..Sep 09 19:14
benJImanPower is less cheap though.Sep 09 19:14
benJImanCosts me a couple of pounds a day to run a PC I think.Sep 09 19:15
_DougDon't you use your companies electricity, I know I do ..Sep 09 19:15
_Dougand their broadband ..Sep 09 19:16
benJImanAt work I use windows boxes.Sep 09 19:16
_DougGot a whole new IP block a while back ...Sep 09 19:16
_DougPUt a nix box in the server room, no-one will notice ...Sep 09 19:17
_DougI mostly use bash .. so remote isn't a problemSep 09 19:17
MinceRif no-one will notice, the admins are slacking off ;)Sep 09 19:18
benJImanI rent some servers and have access to several others in various places so have no need. Not to mention that would be unethical, unprofessional, and not actually possible with a competent company.Sep 09 19:18
_DougI am the admin .. :)Sep 09 19:18
MinceR(unless the server room is shared or something)Sep 09 19:18
MinceRoh.Sep 09 19:18
MinceRthat makes them easy to overlook ;Sep 09 19:18
MinceR;)Sep 09 19:18
_DougHead office is in Germany, so no supprise visits ..Sep 09 19:19
_DougThe rest are Microsoft trained sandwich makers ..Sep 09 19:19
_DougI'm off ..Sep 09 19:19
*_Doug has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Sep 09 19:19
tessier_Please, it's "sandwich artist"Sep 09 19:52
tessier_Get it rightSep 09 19:52
schestowitz 09 19:53
tessier_classicSep 09 19:54
tessier_xkcd rocksSep 09 19:54
schestowitzat it reads "hold on, I'll have to leave the house and come back again as Admin."Sep 09 19:55
MinceRa Minesweeper Consultant and Solitaire Expert wouldn't understand "sudo" :>Sep 09 19:57
benJImanNot a very good troll since vista's priviledge escalation capabilities are significantly more advanced.Sep 09 19:57
MinceR(or should i say Certified Reset-button Pusher?)Sep 09 19:57
schestowitzbenJIman 'strikes again'. Never mind the reality.Sep 09 20:03
schestowitzThe Truth About User Privileges : 09 20:03
schestowitz'Vista's Account Protection: One Click and It's Gone': 09 20:03
schestowitzMicrosoft: Turn off Vista's UAC to fix problems : 09 20:03
schestowitzWindows Vista Tip: Run as administrator : 09 20:04
schestowitzVista: Slow and Dangerous : 09 20:04
schestowitzWindows Vista set to overwhelm helpdesks [...] "SupportSoft predicted that one of the main areas in which end-users are likely to experience problems will be dealing with Vista's security features." 09 20:04
schestowitzVista's UAC security is hopeless, says Symantec : 09 20:04
schestowitzVista's Faux Security [...] 'At the end of the new Apple ad, the security guard finally asks the hapless PC: "You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or allow?"' 09 20:05
schestowitz"Oh, excuse me, is this supposed be a joke? We all remember all those Microsoft's statements about how serious Microsoft is about security in Vista and how all those new cool security features like UAC or Protected Mode IE will improve the world's security. And now we hear what?" http://theinvisiblethings.blogspo...Sep 09 20:05
schestowitzWindows Vista: Secure Or Just Frustrating? : 09 20:05
schestowitzVista's UAC needs an overhaul. Ideas? : 09 20:05
schestowitzVista User Account Control and the Linux Superuser : 09 20:06
schestowitz"So, when I was researching the way to determine the shadow storage size on Windows Vista for my February 23rd entry, I wasn't too surprised when I got an error message about needing to elevate my privilege after I tried to run vssadmin from a standard command shell. What a Linux system would have done right there would be to ask me for the administrator password.Sep 09 20:06
schestowitzResearcher Reveals 2-Step Vista UAC Hack :,1895,2131595,00.aspSep 09 20:06
schestowitzLearning to Live with UAC [...] "Hint: For those of you who haven't figured it out yet, the option to disable UAC is buried under the User Accounts sub-section of the Control Panel. Ah, the bliss of no UAC! I could now do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted! It was just like Windows XP, but with a cooler UI!" : 09 20:06
schestowitzSecurity design: Why UAC will not work : 09 20:07
schestowitzWindows Forces you to use UAC to Add a Printer : 09 20:07
schestowitzMicrosoft Exec: UAC Designed To 'Annoy Users' : 09 20:07
schestowitzMicrosoft: Users confused by Vista UAC prompts :,...Sep 09 20:07
schestowitzDidn't Microsoft patent sudo? ;-)Sep 09 20:07
schestowitzIt later advised Mac and Linux to 'steal' the idea of UAC.Sep 09 20:08
benJImanschestowitz: It's not perfect but it's better than the status quo on most gnu/linux distributions for several reasons.Sep 09 20:14
benJImanUser will be prompted to raise privileges of a programme when required. Rather than having to exit and restart the programme with higher privileges. The whole application is not needed to be run as a privileged user. The same sort of thing is possible with policykit /if/ the applications are designed with it in mind. Most legacy apps are not.Sep 09 20:14
benJImanIt also has several technological measures to make life more difficult for keyloggers and such.Sep 09 20:15
benJIman has some technical detailsSep 09 20:15
benJImanNone can protect it against the fact that it's operating in a hostile environment. Malware will be written to defeat it no matter how good it is. Users get annoyed by it because they're used to running with full privileges in old windows releases.Sep 09 20:16
benJImanOn GNU/Linux you want to do an admin task you start the whole app with higher privleges, so all the GUI code is running as root too, making it vulnerable to exploits in things like image processing? fail.Sep 09 20:17
schestowitzInteresting comment: 09 20:17
schestowitz"This is in sharp contrast to Novell's strategy, which is in part, to ensure that GNU/Linux does not succeed as a desktop OS as part of their contractual obligation to Microsoft."Sep 09 20:17
benJImanHeh, obviously not linking to the contract as there is no such clause.Sep 09 20:18
MinceRobviously not linking to the contract as it isn't public. :>Sep 09 20:19
benJImanWell the author claims to know something.Sep 09 20:19
schestowitzIt's a consentual agreement. Novell keeps the Beast happy for some -food- coupon change.Sep 09 20:19
benJImanMicrosoft is indirectly funding development of Free software. It's great isn't it.Sep 09 20:20
schestowitz*LOL*Sep 09 20:20
schestowitzbenJIman: your defensive of everything Microsoft and Novell is audible.Sep 09 20:20
*benJIman counts three errors with that sentence.Sep 09 20:21
schestowitzWhy are you 'watching'  this channel again? Wait, I know the answer. To shout out to your mates at #opensuse when 'backup' is needed.Sep 09 20:21
benJImanI assume you meant Your defence of everything Microsoft and Novell is laudible.Sep 09 20:21
schestowitzbenJIman: I type it down quickly.Sep 09 20:21
benJIman*laudable.Sep 09 20:22
benJImanI do not defend everything Microsoft. I do not even use their software.Sep 09 20:22
schestowitzI meant audible.Sep 09 20:22
benJImanAs in "can be heard"?Sep 09 20:22
benJImanNor do I like them, nevertheless, many of the statements you make are just incorrect. Trolling with false claims is not doing anyone any favours, and just serves to put any valid complaints you do have into disrepute.Sep 09 20:23
MinceRand what's your stance on Novell and the patent racket?Sep 09 20:26
benJImanBack before long. Cooking dinner.Sep 09 20:28
*_Doug (i=c17a2faa@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 20:52
benJImanMinceR: You'd have to be a bit more specific.Sep 09 20:54
_DougJust in, can anyone bring me up to speed ? MinceR, benJIman ?Sep 09 20:57
benJIman_Doug: You didn't miss much. Just some debate as to the technical merits of UAC.Sep 09 21:00
_DougLinux doesn't have UAC, another win for MICROS~1Sep 09 21:01
_DougOr Windows Live OneCare, or AV .. is it safe to use on the Internet ?Sep 09 21:02
_DougHow does it protect against malware ?Sep 09 21:02
_DougbenJIman: why can't you use Linux at work ?Sep 09 21:06
schestowitzbenJIman: answer the question. Stop escaping it.Sep 09 21:06
schestowitzDon't say how it "does say anything about OpenSUSE".Sep 09 21:07
benJImanschestowitz: I was not sure what the question was. I have already stated my position on several things.Sep 09 21:08
schestowitzLet me ask you this:Sep 09 21:08
schestowitzI don't like metal music, I don't care so much for it. Yet I don't enter metal forums trying to change people's mind about it. So what attracted you to this channel?Sep 09 21:09
benJImanI find it entertaining.Sep 09 21:09
MinceR221521 < _Doug> Linux doesn't have UAC, another win for MICROS~1Sep 09 21:09
MinceRrotflSep 09 21:09
schestowitzWe have many discussions here because of you which are Windows vs Linux.Sep 09 21:10
benJImanRegarding my position on Novell/MS things. I think Microsoft selling SUSE coupons is great, it legitamises GNU/Linux to many businesses who might not have considered it before, not to mention it's quite exciting that even Microsoft is all but selling Linux.Sep 09 21:10
schestowitzThat's the boring "my dick is bigger than yours" powwow and it's pointless.Sep 09 21:10
benJImanI think the patent protection part of the agreement was poorly written, and at best worthless in its current form.Sep 09 21:11
schestowitzYou're here mostly playing the role of the troll, that's my point.Sep 09 21:11
_Douga not veery goos troll, IMHOSep 09 21:11
MinceRbenJIman: what about the FUD the patent deal was invented to support?Sep 09 21:11
schestowitzIt ruins the discussion and if you purpose here is to 'add balance' or to 'spy', then maybe you should spend more time in channels that extol the 'virtues' (or virtualisation) of MS and Novell.Sep 09 21:12
benJImanWell the topic says "Exploring the reality" not "Ignoring all other viewpoints but my own"Sep 09 21:12
benJImanMinceR: It supporting FUD is your opinion.Sep 09 21:12
benJImanMinceR: Novell were very clear that that is not the intent, and they disagree with Microsoft's statements regarding patents.Sep 09 21:12
benJImanMinceR: See for example.Sep 09 21:12
MinceRyet they've made the deal.Sep 09 21:12
benJImanI don't dispute that some in Novell management are epic noobs.Sep 09 21:13
schestowitzbenJIman: I won't be spending any more time discussing these things with you. Don't take it personally.Sep 09 21:13
_DougNot a good deal, they could have gone for a do not sue Novell, instead of a do not sue endusersSep 09 21:13
MinceRthey could have gone for a "you don't have anything to show for your patent claims so go fuck yourself"Sep 09 21:14
_DougAnd Novell, could have extended the coverage to all Linuxes, and therefore bought a great deal of good willSep 09 21:14
MinceRjust like everyone else did.Sep 09 21:14
_DougMinceR: yea !!!Sep 09 21:14
benJIman_Doug: Quite.Sep 09 21:14
_DougAnd MS selling Novell 'vourchers' is the dumbest business deal ever, in the history of dumest deals !!!Sep 09 21:15
MinceRall ballmer keeps saying about the patent issue is that some patents are being infringed upon but not whichSep 09 21:15
MinceRthat makes it pretty obvious that they don't have a case.Sep 09 21:15
_Doug benJIman: I won't be talking to you either, no offence !!Sep 09 21:15
_Douggtg ..Sep 09 21:16
*_Doug has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Sep 09 21:16
tessier_I dunno, Novell seems to be making money on it. At least in the short term. In the long run they'll probably be toast. But better to have a job for a couple more years than be toast today.Sep 09 21:31
schestowitzTheir 'Linux' business is still just a small portionSep 09 21:34
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 21:57
MinceRnovell is making money on supporting m$ FUD that harms GNU/LinuxSep 09 21:58
MinceRthat is inexcusable.Sep 09 21:58
schestowitzAnd irrefutable. Novell kept its mouth shut when Microsoft attacked GNU/Linux and said that Novell justifies this.Sep 09 22:01
schestowitzI'll never forget it: 09 22:01
benJImanschestowitz: Not really "We disagree with the recent statements made by Microsoft on the topic of Linux and patents. Importantly, our agreement with Microsoft is in no way an acknowledgment that Linux infringes upon any Microsoft intellectual property. When we entered the patent cooperation agreement with Microsoft, Novell did not agree or admit that Linux or any other Novell offering violates Microsoft patents."Sep 09 22:05
schestowitzThe world was denouncing the threats and Novell...? Nothing. Like the selfish kid grinning and watching the bully hitting everyone with a baseball bat.Sep 09 22:05
MinceRhow is it not an acknowledgement if it includes microsoft not suing for patent claims novell says are not defensible?Sep 09 22:10
MinceRif they know linux doesn't violate any patents, why sign a covenant about patents?Sep 09 22:10
MinceRdoes novell think we're that gullible?Sep 09 22:10
benJImanMinceR: Well you can read their statement at . Any other questions you'd have to email the address on that page and ask.Sep 09 22:11
MinceReven if they make such a statement, that doesn't change the fact that they've signed the deal.Sep 09 22:11
MinceRit only makes novell a bunch of liars.Sep 09 22:11
schestowitzThat's not /denouncing/. I was aware of the statements.Sep 09 22:11
schestowitzClassic maneuver of "blame the bully"Sep 09 22:12
schestowitzGates & Sweaty B have done this for decades. Blame the "bad Cop"Sep 09 22:12
MinceRbenJIman: can you provide an alternative reason for such a patent deal? (also considering that it could be seen before signing the deal that m$ will use it in its FUD campaign)Sep 09 22:13
schestowitz"Microsoft is a bunch of nice people, it's all the management's fault"Sep 09 22:13
schestowitz"Novell is a bunch of nice people, it's all the management's fault"Sep 09 22:13
MinceRtoo bad the management decides the direction the company goes and all its policiesSep 09 22:14
benJImanMinceR: My personal belief is that Microsoft suggested it for whatever reason and the Novell people involved (which wasn't very many) didn't see the problems with it until it was too late. But it's all speculation.Sep 09 22:14
MinceRso novell people don't consider a deal seriously before signing it?Sep 09 22:14
MinceRthey must be really, really stupid.Sep 09 22:14
benJImanWell from a legal point of view it was all above board.Sep 09 22:15
schestowitzSelfish, not stupid.Sep 09 22:15
schestowitzThey knew what they had done.Sep 09 22:15
schestowitz(the upper management)Sep 09 22:15
schestowitzNovell /INITIATED/ this deal.Sep 09 22:15
benJImanInterpret it how you will. In my experience incompetence is more likely than malice.Sep 09 22:15
benJImanI'm not sure they initiated the patent aspect though.Sep 09 22:16
MinceRif it's a selfish deal, they're still stupid -- they're blatantly harming the community that produces most of the value their own customers useSep 09 22:16
MinceRit's not a good business strategy to give your own customers the finger in the hope of getting money from one of your biggest and most devious competitors.Sep 09 22:17
*PeterKraus ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 22:35
schestowitz : London Stock Exchange suffers .NET CrashSep 09 22:47
schestowitz"Sep 09 22:47
schestowitzOn top of this runs the TradElec software itself. This is a custom set of C# and .NET programs, which was created by Microsoft and Accenture, the global consulting firm. Its back-end databases, believe it or not, run on Microsoft SQL Server 2000. The goal was to maintain sub-ten millisecond response times. In short, it's meant to be a real-time system. "Sep 09 22:47
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))Sep 09 22:48
tessier_So do we know what caused the crash yet?Sep 09 22:50
tessier_Was it Dot Not?Sep 09 22:50
*mib_g4am4e has quit (" ajax IRC Client")Sep 09 22:54
tessier_schestowitz: It seems he has no idea what caused the problem either.Sep 09 22:55
schestowitz 09 22:57
schestowitz"In June last year the LSE switched from its 10-year-old Sets system in favour of a new platform called TradElect, which runs on Microsoft software."Sep 09 22:57
schestowitz1 year, two days of failures. Not bad, eh? What's that? Like 99% uptime? For a stock market?Sep 09 22:57
tessier_USDOJ shopping for a lawyer for google anti-trust suit? /.Sep 09 23:01
tessier_What has google done to maintain a monopoly?Sep 09 23:01
tessier_I will be seriously pissed if they go after google but don't go after MSSep 09 23:01
tessier_Two days of failures? Did they have another outage prior to the most recent 6 hour outage?Sep 09 23:01
schestowitzIt's Microsoft who's behind this.Sep 09 23:03
schestowitzThey use a variety of proxies to stir things up. Let me find an example...Sep 09 23:03
schestowitzIt's a case of an abusive corrupt monopoly using its abusive corrupt nature to accuse others of being dangerous: 09 23:04
*trmanco has quit ("I just hit the close button :)")Sep 09 23:06
*ld50 ( has joined #boycottnovellSep 09 23:09
schestowitz 09 23:14
schestowitz It has just occurred to me that IBM and Lenovo recently started talking about Open Client or whatever they call that Red Hat/Ubuntu/SUSE Lotus combo they announced in LinuxWorld. Lenovo admitted that it spoke to IBM about it, so it could be related.Sep 09 23:24
MinceRhttp://hasthelargehadroncollide...Sep 09 23:32
schestowitzHeh. Try it with JS disabled (me by default).Sep 09 23:33
*ld50 has quit ("Lost terminal")Sep 09 23:34
schestowitzCheck out the page source:  "if the lhc actually destroys the earth & this page isn't yet updated please email to receive a full refund"Sep 09 23:35
MinceR:)Sep 09 23:35
schestowitz*yawn*Sep 09 23:49
*schestowitz is away: Passed outSep 09 23:49
MinceR 09 23:50


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