| Balrog | yeah..... | Feb 20 00:02 |
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| schestowitz | The poor billionaires who cry over OBAMAA's should will know a real crisis when they can't feed their family, never mind casual jobs. You can't say to your kid, "look, we don't have much food this year, but next year we might, so stop eating for now and catch up next year." | Feb 20 00:07 |
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| MinceR | hm, i never knew keeping women like prisoners and covering them up equates to "respect" | Feb 20 00:07 |
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| schestowitz | A lot more interesting is the fact that a lot of them actually make a 'living' (a billion) by exploiting people in this way, targeting areas like Indonesia and Colombia. They deserve to taste their own poison. | Feb 20 00:08 |
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| schestowitz | MinceR: respect is listening to what they demand. But first they need to be 'un-indoctrinated' | Feb 20 00:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://en.wikipedia.org/wik... | Feb 20 00:09 |
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| schestowitz | She's still ranked high in Google... http://www.google.com/search?sour... | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| Balrog | trouble is, things move much slower than we'd like them to | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | I used to be 'Roy' number 13, IIRC. | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | That was in 2004. Now I'm around 20th | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| Balrog | You're #11 | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | Me? | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| Balrog | yes | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| Balrog | http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&am... | Feb 20 00:10 |
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| schestowitz | Whoa | Feb 20 00:11 |
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| schestowitz | In the link you sent me I'm #3 | Feb 20 00:11 |
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| MinceR | oh, i almost forgot the part where they can't vote and can't learn. :> | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| Balrog | yeah it's the second page | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| schestowitz | It depends on location | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| Balrog | you're on the top here | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| Balrog | (of the second page) | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| schestowitz | I didn't realise this even. | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| schestowitz | I last checked it like 4 years ago. | Feb 20 00:12 |
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| MinceR | gn | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | If I'm "Roy" #3 year, then something's wrong in Google. | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| Balrog | it's PAGE 2 | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| Balrog | so you're #13 | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| Balrog | &start=10 | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | I never optimised or anything for it. In fact, I hardly touch that site these days | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | It's all those googlebombers who get good positions for their anchor strings | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| Balrog | it's probably cross-linked a lot | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | Not really. | Feb 20 00:13 |
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| schestowitz | Not as "Roy" | Feb 20 00:14 |
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| Balrog | true..... | Feb 20 00:14 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe as "schestowitz" | Feb 20 00:14 |
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| schestowitz | My first and middle names are too common. | Feb 20 00:15 |
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| Balrog | interesting. | Feb 20 00:15 |
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| Balrog | Yeah, MS keeps pushing their 'standards' .... I recently had a small argument with someone who defended MS and .NET for making things "easier for the developer" | Feb 20 00:16 |
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| Balrog | and saying that PHP is 'too complicated' and Python and Ruby are 'not used for serious stuff' | Feb 20 00:16 |
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| Balrog | well, easier for the developer, right ..... until you need to maintain code for more than a few years | Feb 20 00:16 |
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| Balrog | (and ASP[X] for that matter should be included with .NET) | Feb 20 00:18 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: abstraction is OK if it's an open framework | Feb 20 00:24 |
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| schestowitz | Think of a black box that's simple | Feb 20 00:24 |
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| schestowitz | Like an iPod | Feb 20 00:24 |
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| Balrog | well look at Adium and Transmission | Feb 20 00:24 |
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| schestowitz | Go ahead ans try to change what's inside when it fails to work | Feb 20 00:24 |
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| Balrog | two excellent apps for Mac | Feb 20 00:25 |
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| schestowitz | New comment on lock-in (one minute ago): http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/18/no... | Feb 20 00:25 |
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| Balrog | both have a library of x-platform code (libpurple and libtransmission) | Feb 20 00:25 |
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| Balrog | and some additional code for the Mac UI. | Feb 20 00:25 |
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| schestowitz | It's like Palm... or MSN's DRM... one day the stuff goes "poof!" and you don't have much control of your data/infrastructure/whatever. | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| Balrog | Changes to the library normally don't make a difference to the frontend code | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| schestowitz | I'd be scared of putting something proprietary on my sites... it's mostly PHP software with full access to the code. | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| Balrog | but if the library is a black box ..... | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| Balrog | Yeah I'd be careful | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| schestowitz | I've seen what happens to dying blobs on sites | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| Balrog | Java is FOSS now, I believe ..... I hear that's what Apple uses for their site (the backend) | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| schestowitz | Your support system left stranded. | Feb 20 00:26 |
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| Balrog | yeah .... stuff fails. | Feb 20 00:27 |
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| schestowitz | Or has serious vulnerabilities you can do nothing about other than beg the s/w Gods. | Feb 20 00:27 |
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| schestowitz | And then PAY for the fix | Feb 20 00:27 |
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| Balrog | heh ... true as well. | Feb 20 00:27 |
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| Balrog | well if there's a vulnerability, it should get fixed. (Though there's that convenient disclaimer in ALL software licenses, free or not.) | Feb 20 00:28 |
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| schestowitz | Java is good... Sun would keep it safe.. dividing up the company if necessary. There's too much Java out there. Still by far ahead as #1 P/L | Feb 20 00:28 |
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| schestowitz | Don't buy the BS from MS press like IDG... they attack Java for their paymasters | Feb 20 00:28 |
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| Balrog | Yeah I'd argue there's too much. What's nice about it is that you can do the backend in Java and the frontend in PHP or another open platform | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: yes, "get fixed"... in the "next version"... which you must buy | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| Balrog | and the user never has to see Java. | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | And the upgrade treadmill goes 'round and 'round | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| Balrog | Well, the 'previous version' should be supported at least for a few years. | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | Assuming there's staff. | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | I hear the effects of MS layoffs is collsal | Feb 20 00:29 |
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| schestowitz | They already need lots of stuff to maintain she shipwreack called Vista | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Same for W2K and XP.. | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | It takes A LOT of stuff | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| Balrog | Yeah, they cut Flight Simulator ... probably my favorite MS product (and one of the only ones I'd buy). | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | and the system is MONOLITHIC | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Meaning they must do regression testing of huge scale | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| Balrog | I believe they cut W2K too. | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | In Linux it's simpler | Feb 20 00:30 |
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| schestowitz | Have Greg K-H or whoever just sneak a critical fix into 2.6.27, 2.2.26 | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| schestowitz | Slide back into Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. No mmuss, no fuss | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| schestowitz | With the layoffs, Microsoft can't get big enough teams | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| Balrog | yes though I was recently helping someone with SLED10.1 ... really messy | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| schestowitz | And the good engineers jumped the ship | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| Balrog | :( | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| schestowitz | That's why Vista peopel (handling just 10% of the userbase) made so many 'fixes' that rendered boxes unbootable | Feb 20 00:31 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft assigned the good engineers to maintaining XP | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| Balrog | problem is, he wanted to use this: http://www.faronics.com/html/deep... which only works on SLED10.1 | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| schestowitz | Because it's critical (50%+) | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| Balrog | I've seen fixes for XP that made it unbootable. | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| schestowitz | Vista7 is developed almost entirely in India | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| schestowitz | Bangalore IIRC | Feb 20 00:32 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: I hardly used XP | Feb 20 00:33 |
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| Balrog | All I hear about 7 is that it's a remake of vista that runs somewhat better. Though some tests indicated that speed isn't any better. | Feb 20 00:33 |
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| schestowitz | I did a few times, but never on my computers | Feb 20 00:33 |
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| schestowitz | I never had an XP partition | Feb 20 00:33 |
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| schestowitz | Being "better than Vista" doesn't say much | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| Balrog | The only reason I use XP is because of certain proprietary software that's only for XP. Usually in a VM though. I have a second partition, but that's extremely volatile .... one week Vista, another week, some other OS | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| Balrog | mainly for testing | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| schestowitz | Chicken legs are better than cockroach on your plate | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| Balrog | 7 inherits many of the flaws from Vista .... I'm sure. | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| *schestowitz was once served chicken legs in a Chinese restaurant... couldn't touch the thing. | Feb 20 00:34 |
| Balrog | heh | Feb 20 00:34 |
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| schestowitz | We went there after submitting a paper | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| Balrog | and.... | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| schestowitz | Well, I can't recall. | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| Balrog | ok. | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| schestowitz | It was probably accepted | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 20 00:35 |
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| schestowitz | IPMI maybe. | Feb 20 00:36 |
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| schestowitz | I can't recall which one it was.. | Feb 20 00:36 |
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| Balrog | it's fine in any case | Feb 20 00:36 |
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| Balrog | the university I work /study at uses Samba for Windows auth (pulling data from LDAP) .... They used to use NT4 until a couple of years ago | Feb 20 00:37 |
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| Balrog | It's nasty that Samba client for Solaris doesn't work well with the Linux server. :( | Feb 20 00:37 |
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| Balrog | err | Feb 20 00:37 |
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| Balrog | I meant LDAP | Feb 20 00:37 |
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| Balrog | So we're stuck using old-fashioned NIS for now. | Feb 20 00:38 |
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| schestowitz | LDAP was Sun's...? | Feb 20 00:38 |
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| *schestowitz can't recall | Feb 20 00:38 |
| schestowitz | Or just NFS | Feb 20 00:38 |
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| Balrog | their LDAP implementation is ever-so-slightly different | Feb 20 00:38 |
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| Balrog | NFS and YP (NIS) I believe | Feb 20 00:38 |
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| Balrog | they push their LDAP service ... but we want a unified database | Feb 20 00:39 |
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| Balrog | also interesting is that Solaris (by default) uses old-fashioned UNIX crypto for password hashes | Feb 20 00:39 |
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| Balrog | I hear that OpenSolaris does it right though, but that's not being used at the moment | Feb 20 00:40 |
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| schestowitz | I used to do a lot of LDAP at work | Feb 20 00:40 |
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| Balrog | so would you know how to make Solaris clients work with a Linux (openLDAP) server? | Feb 20 00:40 |
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| schestowitz | OpenSolaris.. I wonder where it will be in 2010 | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| Balrog | I couldn't find much docs online. | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| Balrog | Nexenta seems promising. | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| schestowitz | What for though? Server? | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| Balrog | To have a Solaris client authenticate with a Linux server | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| Balrog | (solaris ldap client ---> Linux LDAP server) | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| schestowitz | They have mindshare problem, like GNU and many distros | Feb 20 00:41 |
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| schestowitz | OpenWHAT? | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | Slowaris? | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | People know "Linux" | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| Balrog | yeah, unfortunately | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | And the legendary image of emperor Linus | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | The inventor of "Linux", the Finnish operating system :-) | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| Balrog | Solaris 10 runs usably on these 650MHz UltraSPARC-II-powered Sun Blade 150s..... | Feb 20 00:42 |
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| schestowitz | I saw an article about this easrlier. today | Feb 20 00:43 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.insidesocal.com/click/2009/02/spa... | Feb 20 00:43 |
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| Balrog | and Linux isn't really and option because of the hardware. They have SunPCi cards (AMD PC on a card) but the only supported linux is Red Hat 9 and RHEL 3 | Feb 20 00:43 |
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| Balrog | kernel 2.4 | Feb 20 00:43 |
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| Balrog | they really improved with 10 | Feb 20 00:43 |
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| Balrog | (Solaris, that is) | Feb 20 00:44 |
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| Balrog | speed is so much better .... though the UI is like Windows (the taskbar and 'launch' menu and all) | Feb 20 00:44 |
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| Balrog | also .... those PC on a card devices only have drivers for .... a Solaris host | Feb 20 00:45 |
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| schestowitz | "Like Windows" = like PARC? | Feb 20 00:45 |
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| schestowitz | Or like early Macs? | Feb 20 00:45 |
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| schestowitz | Watch the background: http://wiw.org/~jess/wp-uploads/b... | Feb 20 00:45 |
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| Balrog | I'm talking about the taskbar, 'start' menu, etc | Feb 20 00:46 |
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| Balrog | yeah I have one of those .... was my first real computer :) | Feb 20 00:46 |
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| schestowitz | That';s the Mac he was doing his -copying- INNOVA~1 from.. | Feb 20 00:46 |
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| Balrog | definitely NOT like windows. | Feb 20 00:46 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Feb 20 00:46 |
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| Balrog | yeah and Apple had to give everything away to M$ in a perpetual licensing deal that later caused their lawsuit to be thrown out | Feb 20 00:47 |
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| Balrog | and then let the code rot .... much like MS is doing today | Feb 20 00:47 |
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| Balrog | (Mac version 7 was the last really stable version ... 8 and 9 were slower and crashed more. X changed things, but it's a completely different codebase) | Feb 20 00:48 |
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| Balrog | that's what happens when marketing people run the company :/ | Feb 20 00:48 |
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| *schestowitz used Mac OS 9 at work for 1-2 years | Feb 20 00:48 |
| Balrog | how was it? | Feb 20 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | OK for my needs | Feb 20 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | I mostly read papers on it | Feb 20 00:49 |
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| schestowitz | The rendering and screen were high quality | Feb 20 00:49 |
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| Balrog | well it's ok. Not entirely stable, though. The reliance on Motorola 68000 assembly code were problematic. | Feb 20 00:49 |
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| Balrog | Yeah, definitely better than Windows :p .... OS X definitely beats it with rendering and stability (true, it's not open like linux, but its crash-rate is close to zero, unlike windows). | Feb 20 00:50 |
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| Balrog | Remember, Apple released OS 9 at about the same time as WinME | Feb 20 00:51 |
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| Balrog | and we all know how terrible ME was :p | Feb 20 00:51 |
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| schestowitz | Macs freeze hough | Feb 20 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Not routinely | Feb 20 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Just once in a long time... total deadlock | Feb 20 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | Never happens to me with GNU/Linux | Feb 20 00:52 |
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| schestowitz | If -- and only if because it's super rare -- I can't handle it from tty7, then moving over to tty1 or sshing from outside would help | Feb 20 00:52 |
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| Balrog | you mean OS X or 9 and before...? With OS X, hardware is a big culprit. The recent nVidia mess, and even slightly-flaky memory, are big culprits | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | That's because Macs and Windows are 'work toys' | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | Critical uptime is just a nice-to-have | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| Balrog | I have a Macbook Pro that's affected by the nVidia problem that already got 'fixed' once (well not really; problem came back) | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | Intel and other h/w companies that require a robust system moved to Linux long ago | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| Balrog | do something GPU-intensive, and the thing locks up | Feb 20 00:53 |
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| schestowitz | Mine is OK... for now. | Feb 20 00:54 |
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| Balrog | if it's a laptop with nvidia, be careful. | Feb 20 00:54 |
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| schestowitz | It goes wonky maybe once in 2 months (rendering oopsie, nothing critical or persistent). | Feb 20 00:54 |
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| Balrog | this problem is much more widespread than previously believed. | Feb 20 00:54 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: yes, I know. | Feb 20 00:54 |
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| Balrog | a messed up display is a telltale sign .... also loss of response ... and error messages like | Feb 20 00:56 |
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| Balrog | /usr/libexec/hidd25 IOHIDEventQueueEnqueue: Error enqueing memory. (0xe00002e8) | Feb 20 00:56 |
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| Balrog | and kernel[0]: NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel timeout! | Feb 20 00:57 |
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| Balrog | written to the logs | Feb 20 00:57 |
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| Balrog | and many nVidia 9600 chips were also affected | Feb 20 00:57 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I wrote a lot about it | Feb 20 00:58 |
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| schestowitz | Not in B.N.. | Feb 20 00:58 |
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| Balrog | but where? | Feb 20 00:58 |
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| schestowitz | It ruined NViddia. | Feb 20 00:58 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclie... | Feb 20 00:58 |
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| schestowitz | Maybe they can 'pull a Blackwater' and change names. | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| Balrog | now they're telling OEMs to buy new chips | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| Balrog | http://vr-zone.com/articles/nvidia-s-solutio... | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| schestowitz | There's this talk (maybe a Microsoft one) about changing names to rescue a wounded brand | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| Balrog | unfortunately, nVidia are the best when it comes to performance. | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| schestowitz | It takes s generation to recover otherwise. | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| Balrog | Changing names won't help; fixing the product will. | Feb 20 00:59 |
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| schestowitz | MS: "Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2." Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry." http://boycottnovell.com/wp-content/uplo... | Feb 20 01:00 |
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| schestowitz | Nvidia got many of the SGI skills and people, no? | Feb 20 01:00 |
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| schestowitz | They left the dedicated machines and made miniature ones. | Feb 20 01:00 |
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| Balrog | Like OS 9 vs OS X .... many people I know hated 9 .... many of them still hate Macs because of it. But those who know what X is like don't think that way (for the most part) | Feb 20 01:00 |
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| Balrog | heh ... | Feb 20 01:01 |
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| Balrog | they should be able to do it right. | Feb 20 01:01 |
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| schestowitz | Silicon Graphics renamed too, AFAIK | Feb 20 01:01 |
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| schestowitz | Interface21... | Feb 20 01:01 |
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| Balrog | I believe they're still SGI | Feb 20 01:02 |
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| Balrog | They did switch to Itanium and RHEL though | Feb 20 01:02 |
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| Balrog | and Xeon | Feb 20 01:02 |
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| schestowitz | RHEL? | Feb 20 01:03 |
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| Balrog | redhat enterprise linux | Feb 20 01:03 |
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| schestowitz | I know about Linux on Xeons | Feb 20 01:03 |
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| schestowitz | I thought they had their own variant. | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| schestowitz | No? | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| schestowitz | Can't recall if there was some name.. | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| *schestowitz googles | Feb 20 01:04 |
| Balrog | They used to have IRIX ... but they scrapped it when they switched architecture from MIPS to Itanium and X86_64 | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=mozclient&am... | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| Balrog | they implemented an emulator to run MIPS/IRIX software | Feb 20 01:04 |
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| Balrog | that's interesting | Feb 20 01:05 |
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| schestowitz | They could do what CERN did with Scientific | Feb 20 01:05 |
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| schestowitz | I'd be surprised if they didn't. | Feb 20 01:05 |
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| Balrog | CERN Scientific.....? | Feb 20 01:05 |
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| schestowitz | "SGI Advanced Linux Environment is based on and designed to be binary compatible with Red Hat Enterprise Linux Advanced Serve" | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.sgi.com/developers/t... | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| Balrog | I see. Must be a derivative | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| schestowitz | So I remembered correctly. | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| Balrog | (with the IRIX compatibility framework) | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: like centos, startcom, unbreakable, xos, etc. | Feb 20 01:06 |
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| Balrog | note that they also support SLES :/ | Feb 20 01:07 |
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| Balrog | yeah. | Feb 20 01:07 |
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| schestowitz | SLES might not prosper for long | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| Balrog | yeah... | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.linux-magazine.com/online/news... | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| Balrog | though many people I know like opensuse | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | The sooner, the better | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | We need a strong Debian | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | They did well with 5.0 | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| Balrog | and Fedora | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | Fedoredhat | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| Balrog | :pp | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| Balrog | :p | Feb 20 01:09 |
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| schestowitz | Some Debian devs read BN | Feb 20 01:10 |
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| Balrog | in any case, nVidia has CUDA, and their proprietary Linux driver works well (at least); ATI's is not as good, and there's no CUDA framework (it's nvidia's anyway) | Feb 20 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | Red Hat employees too, but I'd rather promote things like E17 and OpenMoko | Feb 20 01:10 |
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| schestowitz | "I am not surprised. We desparately want to stay with GroupWise but are forced to used the Outlook client and Groupwise connector to ensure compatiblity with other mission critical products which are only built using .net technology and require the Outlook frontend. Unfortunately Novell has ceased development of the Groupwise connector which means we lack some of the functionality we enjoyed with the Groupwise client." | Feb 20 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | They hopefully know about FOSS subsititute. | Feb 20 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Why is it that people assume it's either Lotus, GW, or Outlook??? | Feb 20 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Lotus = 'open' ploy | Feb 20 01:11 |
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| schestowitz | Scamming with the 'open' label | Feb 20 01:11 |
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| Balrog | yeah. it's good; I don't quite agree with *everything* (like I'm for the FSF in the iPhone DMCA exception issue, but I don't see why Apple has to support the software on devices you tinker with), and I have mixed feelings about OS X on PC's .... probably quality would suffer. | Feb 20 01:12 |
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| Balrog | Migration is a problem. If it isn't easy, they don't want to do it | Feb 20 01:12 |
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| schestowitz | And then there's 'the cloud' (proprietary, lock-in) like Googe | Feb 20 01:12 |
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| Balrog | the uni (a different department than the one I worked with) moved to gmail for student mail | Feb 20 01:12 |
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| Balrog | one I work in *** | Feb 20 01:12 |
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| schestowitz | Bad. | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | They sell the kids to Google. | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| Balrog | yeah, but their old email system was worse. | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | They prepare them to become customers. | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| Balrog | I do hear that Google has to comply with the uni's TOS though | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: doesn't matter | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| Balrog | true, true | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | Over here we used Horde | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | Google Mail/.edu = lazy admins | Feb 20 01:13 |
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| schestowitz | "Hey, Charlie, what did you do 'bout mail?" | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| Balrog | true, it's not the admins I work with who have control over this | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | Charles the admin: "oh, I just phoned Google and let them take over the whole shebang" | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| Balrog | I work with the computer science dept admins | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| Balrog | not the school's computer services admins | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| schestowitz | **Google gleefully rubs hands together over blood of kids for G-Generation ** | Feb 20 01:14 |
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| Balrog | The CIS division (where I work) has no webmail | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| Balrog | you log in through SSH and use PINE | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | Choosing GMail for education gives ammo against the .edu detractors | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| Balrog | or use IMAP + SMTP | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | The hyporcrisy problem | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| Balrog | it's still .edu, but run by gmail | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | "But Charlie (!!!) Microsoft is a criminal company, with lots of proof!" | Feb 20 01:15 |
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| schestowitz | .edu means something else in this context | Feb 20 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | It's Microsoft's additionware | Feb 20 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | Or "software molestation" as I'd like to call it | Feb 20 01:16 |
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| schestowitz | They give universities 'gifts'.... like free vending machines with ciggs | Feb 20 01:16 |
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| Balrog | yeah MS does that | Feb 20 01:17 |
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| Balrog | our admins (CIS department) don't like MS that much though | Feb 20 01:17 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/30/saving-stu... | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| Balrog | they don't like it at all ... I heard, a few times, 'F--- Microsoft' | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | I have more | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | Some links of backward-cross-cites at bottom | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| Balrog | from the systems engineer (who does most of the work) | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | They try it in UNISA now. | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | SA: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/11/30/... | Feb 20 01:18 |
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| schestowitz | Hijacking PT edu: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/1... (ping trmanco ) | Feb 20 01:19 |
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| Balrog | I can tell you that piracy is rampant in Ukraine | Feb 20 01:19 |
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| schestowitz | Really? | Feb 20 01:20 |
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| schestowitz | They have seas? | Feb 20 01:20 |
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| Balrog | no, software piracy of Windows | Feb 20 01:21 |
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| schestowitz | They ship Windows in ships? | Feb 20 01:21 |
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| schestowitz | Why not trucks? | Feb 20 01:21 |
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| schestowitz | Would be cheaper... maybe safer too if there are pirates | Feb 20 01:21 |
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| Balrog | heh ... I meant copying and using | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | Oh. | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | Counterfeiting | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| Balrog | yeah you could say that ... | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | They should 'counterfeit' the GNU | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| Balrog | except not paid counterfeit | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | It smiles when that happens | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | In fact, it's strongly encouraged | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| Balrog | more like friends copying and giving to friends | Feb 20 01:22 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.technicalguy.org/wp-conte... | Feb 20 01:23 |
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| schestowitz | See prints on the CD | Feb 20 01:23 |
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| schestowitz | "Legally free to copy..." | Feb 20 01:23 |
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| Balrog | I pass around Ubuntu when I can :) | Feb 20 01:23 |
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| Balrog | yeah lol | Feb 20 01:23 |
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| schestowitz | I get my CDs second hand.. | Feb 20 01:24 |
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| schestowitz | So I don't get counted as 'download' | Feb 20 01:24 |
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| Balrog | can't you get it by directly downloading from the mirror (FTP)? | Feb 20 01:25 |
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| Balrog | and circumvent the counter | Feb 20 01:25 |
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| schestowitz | I guess so.. | Feb 20 01:26 |
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| schestowitz | Numbers are for marketing people | Feb 20 01:26 |
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| schestowitz | In BN I use distributed cache a lot | Feb 20 01:26 |
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| schestowitz | So I can't brag about traffic numbers. | Feb 20 01:27 |
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| schestowitz | Like with Linux, it's about getting those bits 'out there'.. | Feb 20 01:27 |
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| Balrog | true. | Feb 20 01:27 |
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| schestowitz | Marketing: the art of shamelessly coming up with deceptive methods/measures to boost perception | Feb 20 01:27 |
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| schestowitz | PR/advertising: how to choose images (or videos) that impact people's perception | Feb 20 01:28 |
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| schestowitz | Watch Tv... | Feb 20 01:28 |
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| schestowitz | Count how many ads actually talk about the products's merit | Feb 20 01:28 |
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| schestowitz | Almost none. | Feb 20 01:28 |
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| schestowitz | Just imagery, soothing voices and talking points. | Feb 20 01:28 |
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| Balrog | yes. Some are more true than others. | Feb 20 01:29 |
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| Balrog | Apple's recent ads haven't been that bad. True, they may overstate the situation, but they're correct about how Windows sucks. :) | Feb 20 01:31 |
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| schestowitz | I haven't watched these. | Feb 20 01:32 |
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| schestowitz | I hardly watch TV | Feb 20 01:32 |
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| schestowitz | It's mesmerizing. | Feb 20 01:32 |
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| Balrog | they're on youtube and Apple's site....short 30-second clips that prove a point | Feb 20 01:33 |
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| Balrog | or drive a point home, you could say | Feb 20 01:33 |
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| Balrog | I find the fixing vista one pretty cool | Feb 20 01:35 |
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| Balrog | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MimCZi... | Feb 20 01:37 |
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| Balrog | called "bean counter" | Feb 20 01:37 |
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| schestowitz | Interesting post: http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/asa/archives/20... | Feb 20 01:39 |
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| Balrog | This was when they were spending millions on the Seinfeld ads and "I'm a PC" | Feb 20 01:39 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: seen that one, thanks. Put it in my blog too | Feb 20 01:39 |
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| Balrog | What I see happening is that ads like this remove credibility from Windows, and Mac sells more, but as many people don't like Apple, they'll use Linux. So Windows market share will drop | Feb 20 01:41 |
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| schestowitz | Apple loses popularity as it gains vanity | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| Balrog | same thing with the iPhone ... it sets a standard, then Android will sell more to people who don't want iPhone | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| schestowitz | I used to perceive Apple as gentle | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| Balrog | yeah they have to be careful of that. | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| schestowitz | When I used OS 9 anyway.. | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| Balrog | Well, Steve Jobs was never gentle. | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| schestowitz | Not I just think about arrogant cocks like the ones in the ad when I touch OS X... | Feb 20 01:42 |
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| Balrog | Yeah, some things their legal dept does is not right... | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| Balrog | which ad? | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| schestowitz | Mac guy.. | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| schestowitz | Young stupid prick. | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| Balrog | ah ... that's the marketing department. | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| schestowitz | Almost makes you feel bad for the comedian. | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: maybe Apple goes for the niche | Feb 20 01:43 |
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| Balrog | I think that might be right...to a point | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | The 'ol skool gangsta' kipsters | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | "Be BAD! Use Apple" | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | *hipster | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| Balrog | hmm ... not necessarily. If you ask 10 people, each one will probably tell you something different | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| Balrog | person * | Feb 20 01:44 |
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| schestowitz | I don't like how they adverise OSes | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Like they advertise politicians | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | They use faces... | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Imagiery | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Like the Obama brand | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| *zer0c00l says good morning | Feb 20 01:45 |
| schestowitz | Never mind his policy.. he has kids...and a wife.. and faith. | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: sure, perceptions vary | Feb 20 01:45 |
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| Balrog | that sticks in people's minds. And mainly casts Windows in a bad light. | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | But that's because some people are made to think superficially. | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| Balrog | that kind of advertising works. The Gates-Seinfeld ads don't | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | Like girls who dig guys in suits and Rolls Royce. | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | This does not make the asessment creiteria right | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | We need to educate people not to be wooed (passive) | Feb 20 01:46 |
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| schestowitz | But that would make them harder to contro | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | You can "sell a war" for example | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| Balrog | I hear that some of the newer ads (particularly iPhone) just show the product and third-party apps | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| Balrog | definitely. | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| Balrog | but people are gullible .... like sheep | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | You teach people to trust words, not to ask "Wait! Is this true?" | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: because they are brought up to be sheep | Feb 20 01:47 |
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| schestowitz | And yes, it's possible to change that | Feb 20 01:48 |
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| schestowitz | Look how different culture perceive pacifism | Feb 20 01:48 |
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| Balrog | and it takes a long time for things like that to change. | Feb 20 01:48 |
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| Balrog | like the whole thing with Microsoft .... people were led to believe that Windows is the only real OS, and then they kept buying into it. That's now changing, but after how many years...? | Feb 20 01:50 |
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| schestowitz | They were given no choice | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft restricted OEMs | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| schestowitz | No visibility, no choice in mind of buyer | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| schestowitz | Bundlign... | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| schestowitz | Hold on... | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| Balrog | basically that's true. But back in the day there was CP/M, OS/2, etc | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| Balrog | ok | Feb 20 01:51 |
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| Balrog | those other platforms were more expensive | Feb 20 01:52 |
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| schestowitz | Read this mail: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/01/2... | Feb 20 01:52 |
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| Balrog | I saw that. | Feb 20 01:53 |
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| Balrog | even Macs came with IE by OS 8 | Feb 20 01:53 |
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| Balrog | (though that's not the exact point here) | Feb 20 01:53 |
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| schestowitz | Haha. | Feb 20 01:54 |
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| schestowitz | Yeah.. seen the video of MacWorld 1997 (IIRC)? | Feb 20 01:54 |
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| schestowitz | Jobs on why to bundle IE | Feb 20 01:54 |
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| Balrog | I saw clips of it | Feb 20 01:54 |
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| schestowitz | Re: Mossberg, it's about Microsoft comparing OEMs to "our delivery people" | Feb 20 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | emphasis there on their OEM analogy | Feb 20 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | Full video here: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/02/... | Feb 20 01:55 |
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| Balrog | yeah. With OEM's they don't have to worry about the consumer | Feb 20 01:55 |
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| Balrog | the OEM is the consumer | Feb 20 01:55 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft attended MacWorld again this year... it's dead (IDG, IIRC) | Feb 20 01:56 |
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| Balrog | By 10.2.8, Safari 1.0 came out .... true, it had some problems early on (source didn't get released, etc), but today, WebKit is fully open source (with a repo and bugzilla), and one of the most standards-compliant browsers out there | Feb 20 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | Watch James P on how to crash Mac events. | Feb 20 01:56 |
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| Balrog | yeah I hear it's dead. | Feb 20 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/08/... | Feb 20 01:56 |
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| schestowitz | "First there was the Mac App Developers Conference. I was on the Board of Directors of the Mac App Developers Association long ago, and after I left I worked to try to turn it into a cross-platform developers conference, and I did. I managed to make it.. their last conference was very cross-platforn, both Windows and Macintosh, which of course turned off their Macintosh audience; half of the conference was irrelevant to them. They | Feb 20 01:57 |
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| schestowitz | didn’t care about Windows." | Feb 20 01:57 |
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| schestowitz | "They were a bunch of Mac guys. Which diluted the value of the conference. And they didn’t know how to advertise the Windows guys when the Windows guys showe dup. So they lost money that year and the group folded. Oh, well. One less channel of communication that Apple can use to reach its developers." | Feb 20 01:57 |
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| schestowitz | "Screw Apple, they don’t need my help. And so the conference died, so that’s two. I’m working on two other Mac conferences now." | Feb 20 01:57 |
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| schestowitz | What a bunch of LOVELY people there at Microsoft, eh? | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| Balrog | Writing code for Mac at that time wasn't as pretty as today though | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| Balrog | today, you can write code that's mostly shared, or use GTK/Qt and have it like 99% shared | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | Makes you wonder if Apple can somehow sue over confessions like this | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| Balrog | may not be as pretty though | Feb 20 01:58 |
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| schestowitz | Read about the heart attack thing... what a slimy weasel | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| Balrog | I don't think they care. | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | He tried to see how much dirt we have on him. | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | And worry not, I have lots more Comes in store... second half of this year hopefully. | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| Balrog | heart attack...? | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| schestowitz | Read the talk. | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| Balrog | any keyword to find it quick? | Feb 20 01:59 |
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| Balrog | or is it in the pdf? | Feb 20 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | Is Firefox really that bad? < http://blog.flameeyes.eu/2009/02/... > | Feb 20 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: try "she" or "her" | Feb 20 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | It was a lady who ran the conf | Feb 20 02:00 |
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| schestowitz | At some stage I'll need to categorise -- properly -- the 5600 posts or so we have in BN... I'll use the Wiki | Feb 20 02:01 |
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| Balrog | you mean stroke? | Feb 20 02:02 |
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| Balrog | I see.\ | Feb 20 02:02 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 20 02:02 |
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| schestowitz | Dana has become a troll... When will enterprises contribute to open source? < http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-s... >. I think it's best to just ignore him now.. just provacative. | Feb 20 02:04 |
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| schestowitz | *voca | Feb 20 02:04 |
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| Balrog | what about Oracle? | Feb 20 02:04 |
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| schestowitz | He one made Grolaw blog of the year.... but he sure ain't one... not for FOSS anyway | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| schestowitz | Balrog: he misunderstands the market | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| schestowitz | He doesn't even use FOSS like OpenOffice.org | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| Balrog | (Oracle contributed code to Linux)... | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| Balrog | I see. | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| schestowitz | So he makes incorrect remarks | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| schestowitz | He never used Linux until months ago | Feb 20 02:05 |
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| Balrog | OpenOffice.org has its problems .... could be faster | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| Balrog | of course, it does beat office. | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | And he has run a LINUX blog at Ziff|gates|zdnet for YEARS | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| Balrog | (The MS product) | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| Balrog | well, practice what you preach!!! COME ON!!! | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | OOo does standards | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| Balrog | yes that's a good thing | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | So I get to keep my data without Bill's permission | Feb 20 02:06 |
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| schestowitz | I'm going to write about him tomorrow... he didn't know LiMo is Linux :-D that was hours ago. | Feb 20 02:07 |
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| Balrog | I like how iWork does stuff .... different but very usable | Feb 20 02:09 |
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| Balrog | true, it's not a fully-open file spec, but it's at least readable XML and easily converted | Feb 20 02:10 |
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| schestowitz | Cheney employed to start blog about disarmament... news at 11!!1 | Feb 20 02:10 |
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| Balrog | heh | Feb 20 02:11 |
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| Balrog | well I have to go now. | Feb 20 02:18 |
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| schestowitz | cya l8r | Feb 20 02:20 |
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| schestowitz | pleasure talking to you. | Feb 20 02:20 |
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| Balrog | np | Feb 20 02:20 |
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| *schestowitz needs to figure out how to fight Silver Lies | Feb 20 02:21 |
| schestowitz | On Saturday maybe.. | Feb 20 02:21 |
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| schestowitz | Horrible disease... right on the wires, served by innocent modems | Feb 20 02:22 |
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| schestowitz | Double-layered encryption.. network transmission+WinDRM | Feb 20 02:22 |
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| jose | schestowitz, [I'll leave quickly] when the question comes up over whether ms will buy novl.. | Feb 20 02:27 |
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| jose | i'm thinking that novell leadership will be looking for a good deal from ms (and hence kissing arr) | Feb 20 02:27 |
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| jose | but ms' interest is to have novell be weak but in the meantime serve as follows | Feb 20 02:28 |
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| jose | everything novell has at time T is to be taken my MS (dotnet clones help here) | Feb 20 02:28 |
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| jose | for everyone that ms can't reach, they try to pull them in through novell or a similar proxy. | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| jose | so novell scoops up linux.. netware and eventually linux are scooped up to ms | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| schestowitz | MS won't buy Novell.. yet | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| jose | so ms probably does want to hollow out novell and vmware, etc | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| schestowitz | Too valuable as separate... like sellout analysts | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| jose | the employees that aren't of maximum use are threatened | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| schestowitz | "Turncoats" as Shane called them | Feb 20 02:29 |
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| jose | IP, customers, and partners are all probably on their way over to ms | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| jose | yes, | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | jose: yes, it's true. | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | If Novell has impact in projects, then so does Mirosoft | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Like Citrix with Xen | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | or EMC with VMware | Feb 20 02:30 |
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| schestowitz | Remember the "join us or die" banner | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | It's like a big collusion | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| jose | citrix has been successful/useful for a while.. to last you have to be useful to ms over and over | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| jose | novell might just die by themselves | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| jose | if they do a very good job, ms may still allow them to go under (and speed it up by taking their customers) | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | Or employees | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft grabs Novell employees | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| jose | since someone close to ms perhaps can buy out the leftovers of novell | Feb 20 02:31 |
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| schestowitz | That helps them serve as bridges | Feb 20 02:32 |
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| jose | but novell might in fact be helped out.. who knows | Feb 20 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | So Joe Dobbs from Novell comes as MS representative to Novell.... | Feb 20 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | Novell is run by gullible people. | Feb 20 02:32 |
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| schestowitz | Idiots like Bruce and Steinman. | Feb 20 02:33 |
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| schestowitz | They just think "IP" and "soliutions" and Microsoft the 'great model' | Feb 20 02:33 |
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| jose | novell also has people that were surprised and simply want a job | Feb 20 02:35 |
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| jose | in any case, the important point is for the community to recognize what is going on | Feb 20 02:35 |
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| jose | so we treat what surrounds novell adequately | Feb 20 02:36 |
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| jose | ms gets a lot of free marketing from the hoards that reach out to kiss their ars | Feb 20 02:36 |
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| jose | ms let's most fail or grovel for as long as possible | Feb 20 02:36 |
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| schestowitz | Yes | Feb 20 02:37 |
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| schestowitz | "Microsoft is in peace with Linux" is the message Novell reps must send | Feb 20 02:37 |
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| schestowitz | It's part of the deal | Feb 20 02:37 |
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| schestowitz | "Microsoft is cooperative *cough cough* OOXML CORRUPTIONS *cough" | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | Novell also gets the regulators off Microsoft't back | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | With Silver Lie.. | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | With 'interop'... | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| jose | years ago i a poster mentioned how horrible it was all the ms vip people who put so much work to help the overall ms community voluntarily | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| jose | those people would get a lot more return for their investment from linux | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | I got your LT talkback about interop | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | I'll cite it maybe tomorrow | Feb 20 02:38 |
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| schestowitz | Big post about Red Hat-MS coming.. | Feb 20 02:39 |
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| jose | i posted to the samba thread.. are those the ones you mean? | Feb 20 02:39 |
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| schestowitz | I think so. | Feb 20 02:40 |
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| *amarsh04_ (n=amarsh04@ppp121-45-172-81.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 20 02:40 |
| schestowitz | With PDFs cited | Feb 20 02:40 |
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| jose | i also posted to the red hat vm agreement thread | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| jose | in each i spoke about interop i think | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| jose | http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.ph... | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| jose | and | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| jose | http://www.linuxtoday.com/developer/2... | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| [H]omer | Roy. some interesting news | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| [H]omer | I've just joined BLAG | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| jose | i'll leave soon roy.. everyone. | Feb 20 02:41 |
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| [H]omer | They need help after the main developer left | Feb 20 02:42 |
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| [H]omer | So I've stepped in | Feb 20 02:42 |
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| *amarsh04 has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)) | Feb 20 02:43 |
| *schestowitz makes teat at 3am | Feb 20 02:44 |
| schestowitz | *tea | Feb 20 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: great news, great cause | Feb 20 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | We talked about BLAG here yesterday | Feb 20 02:44 |
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| schestowitz | BLAG is FSF approved IIRC (90% sure) | Feb 20 02:45 |
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| jose | blag the distro? | Feb 20 02:45 |
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| jose | i was googling | Feb 20 02:45 |
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| jose | http://distrowatch.com/table.php?dist... | Feb 20 02:46 |
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| *schestowitz can now say that #bn moderator is the developer of FSF's blessed 'RHEL' | Feb 20 02:47 |
| jose | http://www.blagblagblag.org/ | Feb 20 02:47 |
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| schestowitz | Was it Rahul who maintains Omega? | Feb 20 02:47 |
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| jose | looks interesting.. may have heard of it but don't remember anything about it | Feb 20 02:47 |
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| jose | seems the last release was midyear last year | Feb 20 02:48 |
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| schestowitz | http://reddevil62-techhead.blogspot.com/2008/07/bla... | Feb 20 02:48 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.softpedia.com/news/BLAG-90000... | Feb 20 02:48 |
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| schestowitz | http://blue-gnu.biz/content/interview_jef... | Feb 20 02:48 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.desktoplinux.com/n... | Feb 20 02:48 |
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| schestowitz | BLAG is the antithesis of Novell/SLE*. [H]omer: should I add a BLAG banner to BN homepage? | Feb 20 02:49 |
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| schestowitz | It's: 1) Red Hat; and it's 2) respectful to Free software. It's the Antichri.. err.. antinovell | Feb 20 02:50 |
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| jose | later. | Feb 20 02:55 |
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| *jose has quit ("Leaving") | Feb 20 02:55 |
| [H]omer | I'm still here ... having major conversations all over the place | Feb 20 03:14 |
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| [H]omer | Wow | Feb 20 03:14 |
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| [H]omer | Roy, yes please add a banner. We need all the publicity we can get | Feb 20 03:15 |
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| schestowitz | Cool! | Feb 20 03:17 |
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| schestowitz | This logo OK? http://saulinbeijing.blogspot.com/ | Feb 20 03:19 |
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| schestowitz | In Green: http://www.thelinuxstore.ca/index.php?m... | Feb 20 03:20 |
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| [H]omer | The light-blue is nicer | Feb 20 03:20 |
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| balzac | http://www.redhat.com/promo/svvp/ | Feb 20 03:21 |
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| *zer0c00l has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Feb 20 03:21 |
| balzac | redhat is proudly displaying their logo juxtaposed to M$' logo | Feb 20 03:22 |
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| balzac | ick | Feb 20 03:22 |
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| schestowitz | Yuck indeed | Feb 20 03:22 |
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| schestowitz | Reminds me of Novell's sites | Feb 20 03:22 |
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| balzac | yeah | Feb 20 03:23 |
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| [H]omer | OK, so I have jebba's build scripts ... loosely a "buildsystem". I'll be hosting on Slated at some point | Feb 20 03:23 |
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| [H]omer | The build will take a few days to get through | Feb 20 03:23 |
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| [H]omer | Fix issues, etc | Feb 20 03:23 |
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| balzac | that is why I don't want an RHCE cert anymore | Feb 20 03:23 |
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| balzac | Does the RH CEO think he's Barack Obama, reaching out across the aisle? | Feb 20 03:24 |
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| balzac | RH should not support RH virtual instances on top of Windows | Feb 20 03:25 |
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| [H]omer | BLAG is an antiestablishmentarian disto. Fundamentally, a distro for techno-anarchists. | Feb 20 03:25 |
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| balzac | Letting Windows get between GNU/Linux and the hardware is dumb. Supporting that says it's ok. | Feb 20 03:26 |
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| balzac | I say it's an abomination. | Feb 20 03:26 |
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| balzac | They're also throwing a life-line to Novell by smooching with M$. | Feb 20 03:28 |
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| balzac | It makes a gradient of sell-outness, keeping a clear boundary from developing. | Feb 20 03:28 |
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| balzac | Novell can say look, Redhat likes M$ too. | Feb 20 03:29 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: that's good. | Feb 20 03:29 |
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| schestowitz | It makes a statement at the least and makes people /think/ about philosophy | Feb 20 03:29 |
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| balzac | I'd say Redhat has very nearly jumped the shark. They had a great success with the NYSE deal and now they've completely forgotten their roots. | Feb 20 03:29 |
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| schestowitz | Not just "give me teh moonlights" | Feb 20 03:30 |
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| schestowitz | balzac: I will write about all that | Feb 20 03:30 |
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| schestowitz | It's lots of work | Feb 20 03:30 |
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| schestowitz | I already did 3 short posts | Feb 20 03:30 |
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| schestowitz | I'll stick it in the last one | Feb 20 03:30 |
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| balzac | This is how Jim Whitehurst gives back - by sucking up to Bill Gates. | Feb 20 03:31 |
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| [H]omer | Roy, as you may know, BLAG refuses to ship Mono apps, but it does currently ship Mono-core. | Feb 20 03:33 |
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| [H]omer | That is about to change | Feb 20 03:33 |
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| [H]omer | First order of the day | Feb 20 03:33 |
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| [H]omer | Along with a few other improvements | Feb 20 03:33 |
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| [H]omer | I have a future vision for BLAG, which I hope to gather support for | Feb 20 03:34 |
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| [H]omer | Think ELive meets gNewSense, with an RPM base | Feb 20 03:35 |
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| [H]omer | Consider that | Feb 20 03:35 |
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| [H]omer | All the eye candy | Feb 20 03:35 |
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| [H]omer | All the Freedom | Feb 20 03:35 |
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| [H]omer | It's happening right now | Feb 20 03:35 |
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| [H]omer | I have the build scripts here | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| [H]omer | We're basing the next release off Fedora 11 | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| schestowitz | Endorsement added to: http://boycottnovell.com/ | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| [H]omer | I think a long term goal might be autonomy from Fedora | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| [H]omer | We'll see | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| schestowitz | Hehe. | Feb 20 03:36 |
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| schestowitz | "First order of the " | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| [H]omer | For now, I just want to get it moving again | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| schestowitz | Kill the monkey | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| schestowitz | Fedora 10 was a success | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| schestowitz | Fedora 9... not so much | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| schestowitz | Cambridge got good reviews | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| [H]omer | Unlike Gobuntu, I don't think I'll exactly have much problem convincing these guys about the virtues of Freedom | Feb 20 03:37 |
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| balzac | The last Redhat CEO was M$ friendly as well | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| [H]omer | If you know what I mean | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| schestowitz | Gobuntu is vapourware | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| balzac | Matthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with Windows | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| balzac | 2003 | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| schestowitz | balzac: they have to be | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| balzac | gee, thanks bud | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| schestowitz | The customers think BillG is a philantropist | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| balzac | CEOs are usually dumb-asses | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| schestowitz | They want to be like him | Feb 20 03:38 |
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| schestowitz | Not just criminals.... SUCCESSFUL criminals | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| [H]omer | Oh and Roy, get this. Guess who else is involved? | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| [H]omer | Alexandre Oliva | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| schestowitz | Cool!! | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| balzac | I've been thinking the only guy I see who has the right personality to be the most successful GNU/Linux CEO is Mark Shuttleworth | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| schestowitz | http://www.lsd.ic.unicamp.br/~oliva/ | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| schestowitz | He hasn't written much in a while.. not that I've seen. | Feb 20 03:39 |
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| balzac | But he ought to purge mono from Ubuntu | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| [H]omer | I think he's just there for the linux-libre connection and moral support | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| balzac | oh well... | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| schestowitz | Brazil loves Linux | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft does EDGI and stuff over there. | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| [H]omer | Although I say "just" ... that's a big job | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| schestowitz | But they know they get exposed now | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| schestowitz | it has become common knowledge | Feb 20 03:40 |
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| schestowitz | I got asked about Linux in Brazil today. | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| balzac | what happened to guys like Scott McNealy? | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| schestowitz | Lost direction | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| balzac | what happened to trash talking CEOs? | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| schestowitz | Like a middle-age crisis | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| [H]omer | I may definitely need to buy some cloud time at Amazon now | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| schestowitz | Does he still do his fluffy startup thing? | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| [H]omer | That a big build | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| balzac | why do thesse guys have to be a bunch of servile weaklings? | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| schestowitz | McNealy wrote an article for the Indian press 2 days ago | Feb 20 03:41 |
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| schestowitz | McNealy is now a journalist | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | and OBAMAA arse kisser | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| balzac | well, he used to make great fun of M$ | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | BillG writes for MSBBC | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | [feels like home] | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| balzac | Microsoft Lookout | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft Lookout.. heard it recently. | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | Look out! | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | Virus! | Feb 20 03:42 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: I can give you my PC (user account) | Feb 20 03:43 |
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| balzac | if RH is going to support virtual instances on Windows, at least they ought to spin it as an act of aggression against M$ | Feb 20 03:43 |
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| schestowitz | The one I hardly use and is just on all the time. | Feb 20 03:43 |
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| balzac | But to act as if M$ is ok is unacceptable | Feb 20 03:44 |
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| schestowitz | Red Hat frienemy | Feb 20 03:44 |
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| *schestowitz hates the word frienemies | Feb 20 03:44 |
| balzac | ick | Feb 20 03:44 |
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| balzac | If you watch an action movie, and at the end, the good guy compromises with the bad guy, you'd be disappointed. | Feb 20 03:45 |
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| balzac | the bad guy takes a woman hostage, the good guy says ok let's make a deal. you can get away with killing all those people and fly away in your helicopter | Feb 20 03:46 |
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| balzac | you're expecting the good guy to plug him between the eyes | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| schestowitz | I'm not sure | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| balzac | instead he'll take the woman and ravage her at his compound | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft got into it also due to weakness. | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| schestowitz | But watch what Microsoft did to Novell | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| schestowitz | Watch what it did to Linux along with Novell (Mono, Moon Lie..) | Feb 20 03:47 |
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| balzac | I don't like the RH patent deals either. | Feb 20 03:48 |
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| balzac | Even though they're deals made for indemnification of everyone | Feb 20 03:48 |
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| balzac | I'd rather just see them just say that software patents aren't legitimate. | Feb 20 03:49 |
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| balzac | why can't anyone disagree anymore? why all this sickening embracing of enemies? | Feb 20 03:50 |
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| balzac | Microsoft still has so much market share | Feb 20 03:50 |
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| balzac | even if their revenue is drying up, their crap software and brand-recognition is everywhere | Feb 20 03:51 |
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| balzac | oh well, mark shuttleworth isn't going to keep his hands clean either | Feb 20 03:53 |
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| balzac | we've really got no real corporate representation | Feb 20 03:54 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I saw this.. | Feb 20 03:55 |
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| schestowitz | http://refresh.co.za/blog/?p=277 | Feb 20 03:56 |
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| balzac | yeah, that's passive aggressive | Feb 20 03:58 |
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| *NeonFloss has quit ("Going!") | Feb 20 03:58 |
| balzac | it'll erase your data - if you're fine with this, venture on brave knight | Feb 20 03:59 |
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| balzac | that's the payload of the article - the rest is irrelevant | Feb 20 03:59 |
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| balzac | summary: ubuntu = data loss | Feb 20 04:00 |
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| balzac | M$' anchor for their media codec strategy is NBC | Feb 20 04:02 |
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| balzac | MSNBC has content which can be made available through moonlight | Feb 20 04:02 |
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| balzac | I liked this thing called pytube | Feb 20 04:03 |
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| balzac | for ripping youtube content and converting to OGG | Feb 20 04:03 |
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| balzac | It seems to me that people ought to just agree that proprietary codecs aren't proprietary | Feb 20 04:03 |
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| balzac | Think of all the porn | Feb 20 04:04 |
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| balzac | wmv encoded porn | Feb 20 04:04 |
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| balzac | proprietary codecs are like a disease outbreak - difficult to quarantine | Feb 20 04:05 |
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| balzac | gnash is perpetually behind the flash player | Feb 20 04:05 |
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| balzac | it's a moving target | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | NBS ... yuck | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | Like Gartner | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| balzac | the gnash player would have to be much more invasive of flash content | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | I just caught them lying | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | Saying only 1% of laptops sell with LInux | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | BZZZZZZZT... wrong | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | What market did they check? | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | In Germany it's over 6% | Feb 20 04:06 |
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| schestowitz | In the UK it's well over 3% | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| balzac | they lie | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | But Mcirosoft pays the corrupt Gartner mafia for "roadshows" | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | It call it that | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | "roadshow | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| balzac | Roy, I have an idea | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | The "NC is dead" roadshow | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | Can people be taken to prison for lying? | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | I think not | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | But Gartner should be embargoed | Feb 20 04:07 |
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| schestowitz | They also scare OEMs I heard from | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | FUD FUD FUD | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | There's lot of $$ in this biz | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| balzac | absolutely | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| balzac | that's why we've got to fight hard for that cash | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | Why cash? | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | Can't they be taken down without it? | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| balzac | no | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | People deserve to know the truth. | Feb 20 04:08 |
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| schestowitz | Gartner = corrupt | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | They know | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | I know | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | it | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | Microsoft knows it | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | “Analysts sell out - that’s their business model… But they are very concerned that they never look like they are selling out, so that makes them very prickly to work with.” --Microsofgt | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| balzac | businessmen can't be taken down by crusaders, only by other businessmen | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | Start more of a movement | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | Have people spread the word | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| schestowitz | The spin will carry on from the biz community | Feb 20 04:09 |
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| balzac | Roy, I have an idea for gnash | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| balzac | check this out | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | But it can be defeated or weakened | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | Gartner = crooks helps crooks | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| balzac | IE makes the web opaque and mysterious to users | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | "We make you stronger, you pay us" | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | It's like dirt jobs in mafios | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | *fias | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| balzac | FF makes the web transparent, crystal clear | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | "Here.. get some cash for the last dirt job... now go out and say bad things about Net PC" | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| balzac | Roy, you're doing exactly the right thing in attacking these brandns | Feb 20 04:10 |
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| schestowitz | The payment comes later | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | 451 Group hasn't replied yet | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| balzac | but maybe you should start a web metrics thing yourself, or lend your name to such a company | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| balzac | or organization | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | I'll pressure them to say who funds them | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | If they don't reply, I'll take it public | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | They were echoed by MS precisely after published anti-ODD study | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| balzac | it's like the polling companies, each of whom claim to represent public opinion | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | *OSS | Feb 20 04:11 |
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| schestowitz | And they visited Redmond last year | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| schestowitz | Conincidence? | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| schestowitz | Probabl;y | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| balzac | Zogby says this, Gallup says that | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| schestowitz | I wish.. | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| balzac | Zogby reminds me of Zagat - each one is based on one man's reputation | Feb 20 04:12 |
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| schestowitz | Zoggs | Feb 20 04:13 |
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| schestowitz | Last in the list.. | Feb 20 04:13 |
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| balzac | but how to get paid while keeping up a good reputatino | Feb 20 04:14 |
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| balzac | reputation | Feb 20 04:14 |
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| schestowitz | I dont' care | Feb 20 04:14 |
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| schestowitz | Groklaw had reputation without money | Feb 20 04:14 |
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| schestowitz | It took donations | Feb 20 04:15 |
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| balzac | well, i'm trying to have reputation and be a business | Feb 20 04:15 |
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| balzac | attacking rivals is legitimate | Feb 20 04:16 |
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| balzac | I don't see why a person can't do both | Feb 20 04:16 |
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| schestowitz | And how? | Feb 20 04:16 |
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| balzac | actually, the ad revenue from BN for example | Feb 20 04:16 |
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| schestowitz | Fashionable consumption of bullsh*t is what pays one's bills most of the time | Feb 20 04:16 |
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| schestowitz | There are exceptions. | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| balzac | there's a SUSE ad being served up by adsense | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| schestowitz | And for those who help people sell bull to people. | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| schestowitz | balzac: there is???/ | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| balzac | yep | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| balzac | hehe | Feb 20 04:17 |
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| balzac | it happens to bloggers all the time | Feb 20 04:18 |
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| balzac | google is one of those entities which mediates | Feb 20 04:18 |
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| balzac | they drop your oppositions ads right into your website | Feb 20 04:18 |
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| balzac | Maybe there's some kind of bayesian filtering you can use in your adsense account | Feb 20 04:19 |
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| balzac | * | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | Loading... | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | * | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | SUSE Linux Enterprise | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | A Desktop to Data Center Platform Mission-critical and Interoperable | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | Novell.com/SUSELinux | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| schestowitz | We block it though | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| schestowitz | Does this lead to novell.com. It should not show up | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | let me try | Feb 20 04:20 |
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| balzac | http://www.novell.com/promo/linux.html?g... | Feb 20 04:21 |
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| balzac | it's inside an iframe - there's no blocking that | Feb 20 04:21 |
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| balzac | that's a little slice of google on your site | Feb 20 04:22 |
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| balzac | neutral territory | Feb 20 04:22 |
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| schestowitz | It harms credibility though | Feb 20 04:23 |
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| schestowitz | Shane did block this domain | Feb 20 04:23 |
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| schestowitz | It's for him to pay the BN bill. | Feb 20 04:23 |
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| balzac | My multimedia core just got hung | Feb 20 04:27 |
|---|
| balzac | I rebooted alsa but this noise won't stop | Feb 20 04:27 |
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| schestowitz | I've just realised something annoying | Feb 20 04:28 |
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| schestowitz | Red Hat's man is OSI's main man | Feb 20 04:28 |
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| schestowitz | Which leaves more room for MS "schmoozing" (see BN for details) after the Red Hat deal. | Feb 20 04:28 |
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| schestowitz | Tiemann can't so easily tell MS to sod off and out of OSI | Feb 20 04:29 |
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| schestowitz | Now Red Hat needs to smile at the Vole | Feb 20 04:29 |
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| schestowitz | http://news.cnet.com/8301-1350... | Feb 20 04:30 |
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| balzac | yeah | Feb 20 04:30 |
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| balzac | The OSI wants to claim ideological neutrality | Feb 20 04:31 |
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| balzac | open source, not freedom | Feb 20 04:31 |
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| balzac | it's a compromising situation | Feb 20 04:31 |
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| balzac | because the OSI has no ideological spine | Feb 20 04:32 |
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| schestowitz | I'll need to pressure 451 Group too | Feb 20 04:33 |
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| schestowitz | I'd go through their staff until I get a response | Feb 20 04:33 |
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| schestowitz | They need to show where the money comes from (who rather, not where) | Feb 20 04:34 |
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| schestowitz | They say 'where'... not who | Feb 20 04:34 |
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| schestowitz | If they offer no transparency, then it will be imposed upon them. It's only fair. | Feb 20 04:34 |
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| balzac | Asay's article uses "open source" as if it's an antonym of proprietary | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| schestowitz | If not, then speccifically I'll ask them for a breakdown of money from MS | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| balzac | but you can show your proprietary source code | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| schestowitz | Asay is not a Freedom person | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| schestowitz | he's a Mac person | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| schestowitz | But some op-eds fit the theme.. | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| balzac | poor guy | Feb 20 04:35 |
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| schestowitz | Some are worth discarding | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | I dropped him from my readng list | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | He loves money | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | Blankenhorn calls him "big money Matt" | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | Blankenhorn seems to have some man-crush on Asay | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| balzac | hehe | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | He can't stop talking about him in his blog | Feb 20 04:36 |
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| schestowitz | Sam Dean is similar in that sense. | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| schestowitz | Some people are like that around Mark Shuttleworth | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| schestowitz | Inc. Asay | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| balzac | hehe | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| balzac | it's a battle of ego | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| schestowitz | They think of themselves as the "Bill Gateses" of FOSS | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| schestowitz | Sheesh. Don't tell em | Feb 20 04:37 |
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| balzac | you can't forsake your own when ego equates to dollars (so long as your public reputation relects your ego to some extent) | Feb 20 04:38 |
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| schestowitz | Charlatans. | Feb 20 04:38 |
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| schestowitz | RMS is the opposite | Feb 20 04:38 |
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| schestowitz | Flying coach and all... | Feb 20 04:38 |
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| balzac | well, that part isn't necessary | Feb 20 04:38 |
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| schestowitz | Asay has to tell the whole world that the poor man (him) forget to upgrade to first class | Feb 20 04:39 |
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| schestowitz | he publically whined about flying coach | Feb 20 04:39 |
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| balzac | it's irrelevant, except that when you fly coach for 13 hours, you feel like crap when you land. | Feb 20 04:39 |
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| schestowitz | What a 'true' FOSS spirit. Poor thing... | Feb 20 04:39 |
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| balzac | I don't think renunciation sells | Feb 20 04:41 |
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| schestowitz | I dunno.. | Feb 20 04:41 |
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| balzac | that's what keeps good ideas from spreading sometimes - the delivery has too much drama attached to it regarding renunciation | Feb 20 04:41 |
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| balzac | Matt Asay is the kind of guy who probably has a girlfriend | Feb 20 04:43 |
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| balzac | hehe | Feb 20 04:43 |
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| balzac | real geeks can't score! | Feb 20 04:44 |
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| balzac | jk | Feb 20 04:44 |
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| schestowitz | He's married | Feb 20 04:44 |
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| schestowitz | He's like 40 | Feb 20 04:44 |
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| balzac | the fact that he goes on with "open source" is what categorizes him in my mind | Feb 20 04:46 |
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| balzac | open source is real and it is what it is | Feb 20 04:46 |
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| balzac | but 60% of "open source" is published with the Free Software preamble in the license. | Feb 20 04:47 |
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| balzac | BSD is "open source". So is Apache and PHP. | Feb 20 04:47 |
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| balzac | but they didn't know what to call it until RMS explained what "free software" meant | Feb 20 04:47 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I know.. | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| schestowitz | But these are not enemies | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| balzac | of course | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| schestowitz | They are misguided | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| balzac | nope | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| schestowitz | They chooses convenience over ethics | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| balzac | well, there's a place for academic licenses | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| twitter | RMS does not fly. He takes the buss for privacy and environmental reasons. | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| balzac | how does he get to russia? | Feb 20 04:48 |
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| twitter | don't know, he's not religious about most things. | Feb 20 04:49 |
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| twitter | he'll even use Windows if there's nothing else around, ha ha. | Feb 20 04:49 |
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| balzac | he used proprietary unix to build gnu until it could boot | Feb 20 04:50 |
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| schestowitz | [H]omer: do you want me to do an article about BLAG? | Feb 20 04:50 |
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| schestowitz | In BN that is.. | Feb 20 04:50 |
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| schestowitz | About shift of power and no-mono-no-no-ism | Feb 20 04:50 |
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| balzac | Roy, I don't know if it's fair to say everyone who is into authentic open source is choosing convenience over ethics | Feb 20 04:50 |
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| schestowitz | Generalisation | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| schestowitz | This is IRC | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| schestowitz | Not an essay | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| schestowitz | :-) | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| balzac | but those who call GPL-licensed code "open source" are either ignorant or choosing convenience over ethics | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| twitter | I have to agree with Moglen's tongue lashing of Tim O'Reilly over "Open Source" avoiding the words "free" "freedom" and politics was a big mistake. | Feb 20 04:51 |
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| balzac | maybe he could have teased him instead | Feb 20 04:52 |
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| twitter | People who understand software freedom will stay away from mono. | Feb 20 04:52 |
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| balzac | I wrote a thing called "The Great Open Source Circle Jerk Conspiracy" | Feb 20 04:53 |
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| schestowitz | For FSM? | Feb 20 04:53 |
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| balzac | I ought to | Feb 20 04:53 |
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| balzac | it was on a website I later took down and now use as a staging server | Feb 20 04:53 |
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| twitter | NSFW http://www.google.com/search?q=circle... | Feb 20 04:54 |
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| balzac | I'm attacking the "open source" brand identity in defense of and retribution for years of sustained attacks on the "free software" brand identity | Feb 20 04:54 |
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| balzac | the "open source" brand identity claims so much GPL-licensed code, it's not even funny. | Feb 20 04:55 |
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| schestowitz | Yes, I say that too | Feb 20 04:55 |
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| schestowitz | They relabel other people's movement | Feb 20 04:55 |
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| balzac | and they try to sell the idea to us by saying they're the reason free software took off | Feb 20 04:55 |
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| balzac | all it needed was a little re-branding | Feb 20 04:56 |
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| twitter | people like Bruce Perens seem to understand what happened. | Feb 20 04:56 |
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| balzac | Eric Raymond is the worst about it | Feb 20 04:56 |
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| balzac | twitter: at least he came around in the end | Feb 20 04:56 |
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| balzac | and Eric Raymond got so pissed he wrote a threatening email | Feb 20 04:57 |
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| balzac | to Perens | Feb 20 04:57 |
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| twitter | "Freedom" is a scary thing to talk about, but it was not right of the Open Software people to belittle. | Feb 20 04:58 |
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| balzac | it was an organized coup against RMS | Feb 20 04:58 |
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| balzac | to marginalize him | Feb 20 04:59 |
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| twitter | M$ stoked the conflict, too - exploiting conflicts of the enemy, that's part of their TE guidelines. | Feb 20 04:59 |
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| balzac | he had gathered a lot of code contributors to GNU | Feb 20 04:59 |
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| twitter | got links to Eric Raymond's threat? | Feb 20 04:59 |
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| schestowitz | twitter: exactly | Feb 20 04:59 |
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| schestowitz | They promote a new animal now | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | They fund OSBC | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | They have this thing called enterprise open source | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | of commercial open source | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | to suggest gnu et al are 'hobbyists' | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| twitter | "radicals" "zealots" and other bad names. | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | Did ESR threaten with guns? :-| | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| schestowitz | Sounds like him... :-) | Feb 20 05:00 |
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| balzac | not specifically with guns | Feb 20 05:01 |
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| balzac | but he gave a warning which suggested he would take action against Perens | Feb 20 05:01 |
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| balzac | twitter: it was such a long time ago | Feb 20 05:01 |
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| balzac | it's available from searching | Feb 20 05:02 |
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| balzac | Perens published it | Feb 20 05:02 |
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| balzac | ESR also coopted the "hackers dictionary" and started adding silly stuff to it | Feb 20 05:02 |
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| balzac | he's the svengali | Feb 20 05:03 |
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| balzac | CATB was written with intent to deceive, imho | Feb 20 05:03 |
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| balzac | and O'Reilly published it far and wide | Feb 20 05:04 |
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| balzac | as if it were the GNU Manifesto | Feb 20 05:04 |
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| balzac | When I first found out about "Linux", I was all about Cathedral and the Bazaar, Open Source, OSI, Linux | Feb 20 05:04 |
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| schestowitz | balzac: they already blocked him | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | ES blogs in OSI | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | So he's still around | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| balzac | the whole language of the re-branding campaign completely obscured a pre-existing campaign | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | I signed a petition i support of Perens | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | I also got some BN readers to sign it | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | But he was marginalised | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| twitter | Here's a relatively recent rant from ESR, " The culture of the [Red Hat] project's core group has become steadily more unhealthy, more inward-looking, more insistent on narrow "free software" ideological purity, and more disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a majority of computer users." | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| twitter | http://lwn.net/Articles/223038/ | Feb 20 05:05 |
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| schestowitz | Perens openly accuses Microsoft of "committing crimes" (and "gett[ing] away with" them) | Feb 20 05:06 |
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| twitter | Kind of funny he would say that while Debian is rocking but has always aimed towards free software purity. | Feb 20 05:06 |
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| balzac | Perens got ripped off too, ultimately | Feb 20 05:06 |
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| balzac | but he was slower to understand and react | Feb 20 05:06 |
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| balzac | http://www.opensource.org/history | Feb 20 05:07 |
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| balzac | maybe I should make a FF plugin which inserts my own opinions into that page | Feb 20 05:08 |
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| balzac | Every time Linux is mentioned, it could replace with "GNU/Linux" | Feb 20 05:09 |
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| balzac | and then you could publish your credibility scores so that after people's names, their score is displayed | Feb 20 05:10 |
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| *dsmith_ (n=dsmith@c-76-114-142-224.hsd1.md.comcast.net) has joined #boycottnovell | Feb 20 05:10 |
| balzac | read IT blogs with that plugin and you get a bietter picture | Feb 20 05:10 |
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| twitter | Looking at the history page ... collating it to Halloween document 1 ... | Feb 20 05:10 |
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| schestowitz | wb, dsmith_ | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| *schestowitz adds links to BN | Feb 20 05:11 |
| balzac | http://www.catb.org/~esr/open-source.html | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| balzac | Goodbye, "free software"; hello, "open source" | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| dsmith_ | thx | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| schestowitz | Loads and loads of good news for Linux today | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| balzac | Raymond issued the first | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| balzac | public call to the community to begin using the new term. | Feb 20 05:11 |
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| balzac | the OSI history page reads like a confession | Feb 20 05:12 |
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| balzac | that was a blatant broad-side against the established free software brand and campaign | Feb 20 05:12 |
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| balzac | the fact that it goes back that far is what makes me wonder if the Linux kernel project its self was specifically intended to derail GNU's completion | Feb 20 05:13 |
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| balzac | not necessarily by Linus, but perhaps by others who shifted attention away from the native GNU kernel project | Feb 20 05:13 |
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| balzac | then all it took was the corporate hardware compatibility backing to make the Linux kernel into the center of gravity | Feb 20 05:14 |
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| *dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Feb 20 05:14 |
| twitter | ESR on Halloween 1, " Since the author quoted my analyses of open-source community dynamics (The Cathedral and the Bazaar and Homesteading the Noosphere) extensively, it seems fair that I should respond on behalf of the community." | Feb 20 05:14 |
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