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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 20th, 2009 - Part 2


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balzacsomething like this was bound to happen to guy like RMS, with the long beard and the non-conformist attitudeFeb 20 05:17
balzacof course the marketing-types would try to take the ball and run with itFeb 20 05:17
twitterM$ in Halloween wonders, " How can Microsoft capture some of the rabid developer mindshare being focused on OSS products?"Feb 20 05:18
balzactwitter: sounds like M$ has been toying with the community since RMS first made a blip on their radarFeb 20 05:18
twitterRMS has been doing his thing since 1984 or so.Feb 20 05:19
twitterM$ continues, " try to generate hacker interest in adding value to MS-sponsored code bases" ha ha.Feb 20 05:19
balzac83Feb 20 05:20
balzacBill Gates has his "Open Letter to Hobbyists"Feb 20 05:20
balzacit's the opposite of the "GNU Manifesto"Feb 20 05:21
balzacThat means that RMS is NEO and Bill Gates is agent SmithFeb 20 05:21
twitterBill Gates and RMS had opposite reactions to the problem of computer scarcity.  RMS tried to share, Gates tried to dominate.Feb 20 05:22
twitterGate's reaction was all selfish.Feb 20 05:23
balzacbusiness savvyFeb 20 05:23
twitterNo, childish.Feb 20 05:23
balzacbut ultimately, he'll be less important in the history of softwareFeb 20 05:23
twitterhe broke his first system in high schoolFeb 20 05:23
twitterused it to his advantage and kept it unstable so he could "fix" it.Feb 20 05:23
twittersee a pattern there?Feb 20 05:24
balzachmmFeb 20 05:24
balzacsounds like himFeb 20 05:24
balzache's a weaselFeb 20 05:25
twitterI've quoted the important bits of a history here, 20 05:25
twitterAt about the same time, RMS was confronted with the same problems in a slightly different environment.Feb 20 05:26
balzactwitter: that's coolFeb 20 05:26
balzacyeah, it's really quite a storyFeb 20 05:26
balzacthe wealthiest man in the world and his arch-nemesis, a guy almost nobody has heard ofFeb 20 05:26
twitterThanks.  The RMS reaction was to find underutilized resources and make them available.Feb 20 05:27
twitterHe made anonymous passwords and would unlock offices so that people could use terminals there.Feb 20 05:27
balzacthat's a good tidbit about Gates seizing control at such a young ageFeb 20 05:28
balzacby denial of serviceFeb 20 05:29
balzacnot in the sense it's used today with the packet stormsFeb 20 05:29
balzacbut by bringing the system downFeb 20 05:29
twitterHe kept the computers broken so that he could earn money and computer time fixing them.Feb 20 05:30
balzacmaybe that's when he conceived his vision of the BSODFeb 20 05:30
twitterHe learned how to scare people there, I'm sure.Feb 20 05:30
balzaca very cryptic looking error message which hasn't changed much in so many yearsFeb 20 05:30
balzacit's meant to baffle you and leave you at a dead endFeb 20 05:30
balzacWindows is a mind-prisonFeb 20 05:31
balzacand a big joke, played by this pranksterFeb 20 05:31
twitterGotta go now.  Take it easy on ESR.  Mistakes are not crimes.Feb 20 05:32
balzacbut it's starting to lose its humor when his joke is being played on school-kids all over the worldFeb 20 05:32
balzactwitter:Feb 20 05:32
balzacI agreeFeb 20 05:32
balzacttylFeb 20 05:32
twittergnFeb 20 05:32
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schestowitztoyFeb 20 06:15
schestowitzAlmost 7am. Time for bed :-DFeb 20 06:28
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MinceRhm, isn't there a less retarded ad agency than google that actually lets you choose who may advertise on your site?Feb 20 08:18
MinceRr4wrFeb 20 09:41
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toroshiFeb 20 10:28
MinceRhayFeb 20 10:29
toroshave you seen this mail? 20 10:31
MinceRnopeFeb 20 10:32
torosIs ToolKid the next Schlaumuase?,10...Feb 20 10:32
torosI mean Schlaumause :)Feb 20 10:33
schestowitzHeyFeb 20 10:46
toroshi, Mr. schestowitz :)Feb 20 10:47
schestowitzWHat's up?Feb 20 10:47
torosHave you seen my links?Feb 20 10:47
toros 20 10:47
toros,10...Feb 20 10:47
torosMaybe it is something interesting for 20 10:47
torosCould ToolKid be the next Schlaumause?Feb 20 10:48
schestowitzSounds typicalFeb 20 10:48
schestowitzNComputing...Feb 20 10:48
schestowitzThey supply the soluitionFeb 20 10:48
schestowitzNow occupied with one Microsoft lackeyFeb 20 10:49
schestowitzThey can ptobably use WineFeb 20 10:49
schestowitzLike Vienna couldFeb 20 10:49
schestowitzBut this could be the result of malice. Someone wanting it to fail and manufacturing case of disabilityFeb 20 10:50
torosI wrote an article about the Macedonia-project... and there was, that Macedonia could be the Silicon Valley of EuropeFeb 20 10:50
schestowitzSilicon Valley is fucked.Feb 20 10:51
torosbecause open source gives a great opportunity for talented people do build great thingsFeb 20 10:51
schestowitzDon't compare them.. Land of Mickeymouse is not in a good shapeFeb 20 10:51
schestowitzCalifornia if in huge debt.Feb 20 10:51
schestowitzNow  Kuala Lampour... *there's* a place.Feb 20 10:51
torosI think in the open source world you can forget the geographical place... what really counts, is the freenode channel :)Feb 20 10:53
schestowitzThen there's Google.. with a million Linux servers spying on people and doing PageRank (=just counting links and some other basic stuff)... that's just investment-dependent.Feb 20 10:53
torosI think the best things come from bedrooms... :)Feb 20 10:54
toroslike irssi or Arch LinuxFeb 20 10:54
schestowitzWordPress tooFeb 20 10:56
schestowitzb2+matt mullenweg and othersFeb 20 10:56
schestowitzmaybe facebook too, I dunno the story well...Feb 20 10:57
schestowitzBut WordPress is GPL... purelyFeb 20 10:57
schestowitzAnd a success story with a big business around Free softwareFeb 20 10:57
schestowitzDrupal too, I think...  he was doing his PhD while building DrupalFeb 20 10:57
torosI know some Drupal devsFeb 20 10:59
torosDrupal is very popular in HungaryFeb 20 10:59
torosif you start here a community site, the best choice is drupal, because you can find very easily people who can manage drupalFeb 20 11:01
schestowitzThis is goodFeb 20 11:02
schestowitzColleges should teach stuff like thisFeb 20 11:02
schestowitzIt encourages learning, sharing, etcFeb 20 11:02
schestowitzOffice (menu layouts 'education') encourages isolation and blue screens of deathFeb 20 11:02
toroswe have now a new project called Ubuntu Academy... the goal is to teach people how to take part in open source communityFeb 20 11:03
schestowitzThat's brilliantFeb 20 11:04
toroswe will have a 2 day conference, where we teach people about the processes of our communityFeb 20 11:04
schestowitzJust Ubuntu?Feb 20 11:04
torosIt is organised by the Ubuntu community... but what you learn is usefull everywhere :)Feb 20 11:05
torosthe Ubuntu community is far the largest free software community in HungaryFeb 20 11:06
toroswe have 9000 registered users at - and the population of Hungary is about 9 million ppl. :)Feb 20 11:09
torosso 0,1 percent of the Hungarians are registered userd of :)Feb 20 11:09
toros* usersFeb 20 11:09
schestowitzThat's good. Most people do not registerFeb 20 11:11
toroswe have a great community here - Ubuntu is much more about community, not the software itselfFeb 20 11:12
torosI don't think that Ubuntu is the better than any other distribution in the worldFeb 20 11:13
torosIt is just a Linux distribution like any otherFeb 20 11:13
torosbut the community is great here, and if you want to do great things, and enjoy to be part of a free software community, then Ubuntu is the best choiceFeb 20 11:14
schestowitzBN server is under huge load... barely loadable.Feb 20 11:21
schestowitzHmmmmm....Feb 20 11:21
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mib_r9greawhat's going on with the site?Feb 20 11:21
schestowitzI don't knowFeb 20 11:22
schestowitzVery high loadFeb 20 11:22
schestowitzCritical loadFeb 20 11:22
mib_r9greaoh:(Feb 20 11:22
schestowitzI'm diagnosingFeb 20 11:22
mib_r9greaNothing like a lot of traffic to mess things upFeb 20 11:22
schestowitz"Memory Used  70.3 %"Feb 20 11:23
schestowitzI'm not sure what's going on... since 5 minutes agoFeb 20 11:24
schestowitzseems to be stablising now.Feb 20 11:25
mib_r9greaGood luck fixing it.  I gotta get my daily fix of BN. LOLFeb 20 11:25
schestowitz:-)Feb 20 11:26
mib_r9greabye.Feb 20 11:27
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schestowitzbrbFeb 20 11:31
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schestowitzNew in-the-wild attack targets fully-patched Adobe Reader < > ... Evince.. KPDF?Feb 20 11:42
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josefrom yesterday (but just saw it this morning): 20 12:59
joseSuit over Vista marketing no longer class actionFeb 20 12:59
jose>> In her decision, she wrote that the people who brought the lawsuit did not prove Microsoft artificially inflated demand for PCs that could run only the stripped-down version of Vista.Feb 20 12:59
jose>> They also failed to prove Microsoft was unjustly enriched by sales of "Vista Capable" computers, Pechman wrote.Feb 20 12:59
jose>> Over the last year, the case has made public reams of e-mails between Microsoft, PC makers ....Feb 20 13:00
schestowitzHeyFeb 20 13:08
schestowitzYes, it's ridiculousFeb 20 13:08
schestowitzI couldn't help thinking about Tuesday's (ish) news about 2 judges getting busted for being bribedFeb 20 13:09
schestowitzAnd remember Judge Jackson and what the "Microsoft religion" did to him.Feb 20 13:09
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*schestowitz just realised that waving a hand in front of an CRT leads to different outcome compared to doing the same with a flatscreen. Hmmm...Feb 20 13:37
MinceRCRTs flicker a lot more than LCDsFeb 20 13:41
MinceRand are refreshed sequentiallyFeb 20 13:41
oiaohmCrt also have pure black LCD's don'tFeb 20 13:46
oiaohmSo its a devil be damed mess until we get Oled.Feb 20 13:47
schestowitzThanks. This was empirical to me... I didn't read anything, but you gave the answer.Feb 20 13:48
*schestowitz uses two screens on this PC... one a widescreen 24-inch LCD, another a 19-inch CRTFeb 20 13:49
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oiaohmI am personally looking forward to like Oled displays.Feb 20 13:51
oiaohmPlasmas are too hot to be near.Feb 20 13:52
schestowitzDigg is still all wonkyFeb 20 13:52
schestowitzI hardly feel like visiting that site anymore, unless they get those probs worked out.Feb 20 13:52
schestowitzPlasmas are to be banned in the EUFeb 20 13:52
schestowitzEnergy-guzzling luxuries.Feb 20 13:52
oiaohmYepFeb 20 13:52
oiaohmThat will force work on OledFeb 20 13:53
oiaohmOn top of doing true black they eat less power than LCD.Feb 20 13:53
oiaohmIn equal to back lit mode.Feb 20 13:53
oiaohmMost likely we will be left with refletive LCD and oled as screen types.Feb 20 13:54
joseschestowitz, what's wrong with digg?Feb 20 13:55
schestowitzToo many bad pageloadsFeb 20 13:56
schestowitzIt's a waste of timeFeb 20 13:56
schestowitzGone on for like 3 weeks now and not improvedFeb 20 13:56
schestowitzIt makes it hard to submit without reloading pages and wrestling with the process (too many bugs)Feb 20 13:56
schestowitzEven just loading normal pages sometimes redirects to "error"Feb 20 13:57
schestowitzThey'll turn away regulars unless they fix this.Feb 20 13:57
josethe reason i askFeb 20 13:57
joseis because my tinfoil hat is onFeb 20 13:57
schestowitzIt's not just me.Feb 20 13:58
schestowitzOr you..Feb 20 13:58
josewhat should I look for specifically?Feb 20 13:58
joselet me know if you want me to submit somethingFeb 20 13:58
josei don't go to digg, but just went and found theseFeb 20 13:59
jose 20 13:59
jose 20 13:59
jose 20 13:59
schestowitz[H]omer: you probably want to redesign (see ). Move the pages without losing any to a side place like "Old site"Feb 20 13:59
schestowitzUse something like Drupal to make a good impression.Feb 20 13:59
jose>> The banner, seen at right, urges them to ditch IE 6 and upgrade to Internet Explorer 7.Feb 20 14:00
schestowitzjose: it's always useful if you pass around pointers to BNFeb 20 14:00
jose>> From Vista to Linux (It was a lot easier than I thought)Feb 20 14:00
jose?Feb 20 14:00
schestowitzIt exposes people not already in the 'choir' to the messageFeb 20 14:00
schestowitzI put that Vista post in yesterday's (last night's) list of linksFeb 20 14:01
jose>> Single Google Query uses 1000 Machines in 0.2 secondsFeb 20 14:01
schestowitzThat Google item is pretty amazingFeb 20 14:01
josei frequently mention bn or a bn linkFeb 20 14:01
schestowitzWon't see such power built upon Windows any time soonFeb 20 14:01
schestowitzjose: yes, I noticed thatFeb 20 14:01
schestowitzWe have some fans in other sites who regularly link to us.Feb 20 14:02
schestowitzI don't know who these people are but they helpFeb 20 14:02
josefinnish companies are trying to get users to upgrade internet explorerFeb 20 14:02
josedoes finland have an ms deal (from the ooxml days)Feb 20 14:02
jose?Feb 20 14:02
joseupgrading IE is what you do if you want to be locked in furtherFeb 20 14:03
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josenever mind.. the article said this: IE 6, released in 2001, is the scourge of web programmers, user-experience designers and technical-support staff alike. The browser is stacked with quirks that cause web pages to render differently from all other browsers, and special considerations must be taken by web builders to accommodate users running IE 6.Feb 20 14:04
josethe good news is that firefox is large enough now that ie6 is an outsiderFeb 20 14:06
oiaohmIE 7 is still are trouble.Feb 20 14:06
oiaohmNone of the IE's are 100 precent compadiblie with each other.Feb 20 14:06
schestowitzWikileaks publishes secret donor list < >Feb 20 14:06
oiaohmI remember IE 4Feb 20 14:06
joseyeah, i was going to say that ie 6 is trouble .. when compared to everything else that is more recentFeb 20 14:07
schestowitzjose: Finland too was corrupted by the OOXML fiascoFeb 20 14:07
joseok, schestowitz, i'm not sure if this would be related, but that's why i asked.. i suspected thatFeb 20 14:07
josemeaning that a major deal was announced... france had something like that i thinkFeb 20 14:08
schestowitzFinland... well, you'd think that because of Linus and all...Feb 20 14:08
schestowitz 20 14:08
joseof course, the article is about norway not finlandFeb 20 14:08
joselolFeb 20 14:08
schestowitzNorway tooFeb 20 14:08
joseokFeb 20 14:08
joselolFeb 20 14:08
schestowitzNorway was corrupted by MS massivelyFeb 20 14:08
schestowitzMore than FinlandFeb 20 14:08
josei got thrown off by the site mentionedFeb 20 14:08
josethat's the one with the protests right?Feb 20 14:09
schestowitz 20 14:09
schestowitzThat's just the latest among about a dozenFeb 20 14:09
schestowitzyes, protests tooFeb 20 14:09
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joseso if they get lots of modern ms "goodies" then supporting the old becomes a hassleFeb 20 14:09
Omar871Hi allFeb 20 14:10
joseand they can lead the charge around the world that others might followFeb 20 14:10
Omar871So what do you think of this guy? 20 14:10
joseinvest in norway and lose some money, than more than make up for it from elsewhere.. and get more lock-inFeb 20 14:10
josethan -> thenFeb 20 14:11
oiaohmThere is one reason why some comanies would have backed OOXML without MS help.  Tax.  How do you tax free software.Feb 20 14:11
oiaohmcomanies/countriesFeb 20 14:11
schestowitzSeems like Vista7 is rushed:  Vista SP2 release candidate goes closed beta < >Feb 20 14:11
joseyou tax the services and everything else that grows on topFeb 20 14:12
schestowitzMaybe they add soke bloat and more DRM now, who knows?Feb 20 14:12
joseyou may have to change the tax codeFeb 20 14:12
schestowitzIt's under wraps.Feb 20 14:12
schestowitzwb, Omar871 Feb 20 14:12
schestowitzOmar871: he's a no-noFeb 20 14:12
schestowitzSomeone warned me about him last weekFeb 20 14:12
schestowitzPro-Mono(vell), some other Freedom-hostile stuff...Feb 20 14:13
schestowitzI used to link to some posts from there but was asked not toFeb 20 14:13
schestowitzoiaohm: that's a far fetched suggestionFeb 20 14:13
schestowitzRemember that nations benefit from developing locally.Feb 20 14:14
schestowitzIt keeps the money inside the countryFeb 20 14:14
schestowitzthat said, MS is muli-national with many cronies that act as colonialist overlordsFeb 20 14:14
oiaohmName numbers of elected people who think long term.Feb 20 14:14
oiaohmIe result of changing most of your base over to Open Source is a short term tax loss until compaines start operating with more profit that is business taxable.Feb 20 14:15
oiaohmThere would have to be 1 or 2 people who did not look long term.Feb 20 14:16
schestowitz (Asus has team working on Android netbooks)Feb 20 14:17
josethe government itself would save money.. unless ms was subsidizing.. ie, they were bought offFeb 20 14:17
schestowitzBut wait..Feb 20 14:17
schestowitzMicrosoft pays TAX?Feb 20 14:17
schestowitzThat would be news to meFeb 20 14:17
oiaohmThat happened here in the Australian end before natiational arcives jumped up and down.Feb 20 14:17
josemaybe not even microsoft but the resellersFeb 20 14:17
schestowitz 20 14:17
oiaohmPrice goverment pays for MS products.Feb 20 14:17
schestowitzoiaohm: pays to whom? Ballmer?Feb 20 14:18
oiaohmHere is gst that is not avoidable.Feb 20 14:18
oiaohmIts like smoking.Feb 20 14:18
schestowitz U2's new album leaked online < >Feb 20 14:18
schestowitzoiaohm: maybe it isFeb 20 14:18
oiaohmWe all know it bad but goverments around the world get some income.Feb 20 14:18
oiaohmSo they keep on allowing it.Feb 20 14:18
schestowitzWindows is like smoking- -- harmful and deception-centric.Feb 20 14:18
oiaohmStupid part abotu smoking is the tax on smokes don't cover the long term medical bills goverments have to pay.Feb 20 14:19
oiaohmCaused by smoking.Feb 20 14:19
oiaohmYet goverments around the world are relucted to ban it out right.Feb 20 14:19
josewhat i worry about is that people fear changeFeb 20 14:19
oiaohmThis is what I am getting at lot of goverments around the world are crap at thinking long term.Feb 20 14:20
schestowitzoiaohm: not only thatFeb 20 14:20
oiaohmHmm here sort term income lets keep protecting it even if it costs us 1000 times more.Feb 20 14:20
schestowitzSmoking kills many people earlyFeb 20 14:20
schestowitzThis means less pensions/welfareFeb 20 14:20
schestowitzSame in the US with dietFeb 20 14:20
oiaohmEven allowing for that.Feb 20 14:20
josenot if they have to do it, but if you ask them to decide for many others, .. politicians would rather be conservative ("if it ain't broke...") until things are actually falling apartFeb 20 14:21
oiaohmIt still costs way more..Feb 20 14:21
schestowitzSome parts of the population driven to obesity = early death = no pensionFeb 20 14:21
oiaohmYes and the medical costs of a obese person before they die.Feb 20 14:21
schestowitzSimilar stories with patentsFeb 20 14:21
oiaohm?Feb 20 14:21
schestowitzShort-term gain for some trolls.Feb 20 14:21
josethere is no getting around that linux needs to be marketedFeb 20 14:21
schestowitzCopyrights too, as Lessig would showFeb 20 14:22
josewhen jack/jill user know linux and ask for it, things will changeFeb 20 14:22
oiaohmLinux need to get desktop ready first.Feb 20 14:22
schestowitzSuppress young people, provide welfare to dead people (their kids and grandkids)Feb 20 14:22
schestowitzoiaohm: ready for many people I knowFeb 20 14:22
schestowitzVista is not readyFeb 20 14:22
schestowitzVista7 is far from readyFeb 20 14:22
schestowitzIt's not even soldFeb 20 14:22
oiaohmCompared to OS XFeb 20 14:22
oiaohmNot crap VistaFeb 20 14:23
schestowitzOS X may work, but so does MandrivaFeb 20 14:23
schestowitzShow me something I can't do....Feb 20 14:23
joseone issue with desktop will be eyecandy.. on the surface, what looks more realistic seems betterFeb 20 14:23
oiaohmCrash and inform you of it in a timely manner schestowitzFeb 20 14:23
joselinux needs to court artists (hobbyist and otherwise)Feb 20 14:23
joseie, we need to work harder at taking LInux to the peopleFeb 20 14:24
schestowitzoiaohm: you're "LinuxHaters Redux", so there's room for bias.Feb 20 14:24
schestowitzjose: there's already lots of oitFeb 20 14:24
oiaohmSo new users end up reseting system when they should have waited.Feb 20 14:24
oiaohmIe KMS need to be in Linux so users can treat it more like XP.Feb 20 14:24
schestowitzitFeb 20 14:24
schestowitzSee KDE4 themes (Plasma)Feb 20 14:24
schestowitzSee LancelotFeb 20 14:24
Omar871schestowitz: What do you mean by "no-no"?Feb 20 14:24
schestowitzSee some GNOME themes tooFeb 20 14:24
schestowitzOmar871: the person is troubleFeb 20 14:25
oiaohmGood part lot of what I am talking about should be on line this 12 months.Feb 20 14:25
oiaohmStart a big marking pushing in 2010Feb 20 14:25
schestowitzoiaohm: doesn't ever happen to meFeb 20 14:25
Omar871schestowitz: In what aspect?Feb 20 14:25
josei'm talking about details that differentiate between something that looks alive vs looking like a pictureFeb 20 14:25
joseanyway, i don't want to push that point without lookingFeb 20 14:26
oiaohmReason I know it I also work with the biggest cause of video driver kernel paniks.Feb 20 14:26
oiaohmwine project.Feb 20 14:26
schestowitzOmar871: all sorts. See recent posts, as I was shown some by one who complainedFeb 20 14:26
josei judge by what I normally come across but i don't do eyecandy much myselfFeb 20 14:26
schestowitzAnother similar chap is Bill BeebeFeb 20 14:26
schestowitzThese people cause trouble.Feb 20 14:26
josepersonally, i want to work on the whole feelFeb 20 14:26
oiaohmSecound biggest cause of kernel panics in video drivers is compizFeb 20 14:26
schestowitzoiaohm: wine is not LinuxFeb 20 14:26
josebut at the end of the day, it boils down to having more artists and other talent on board.. i thinkFeb 20 14:26
oiaohmWine runs on Linux schestowitzFeb 20 14:27
schestowitzIt doesFeb 20 14:27
oiaohmAlso something new user are highly likely to be using.Feb 20 14:27
schestowitzBut it's like using a car's engine for barbecue.Feb 20 14:27
oiaohmFailure comes down to that Linux video stack don't handle kernel paniks well.Feb 20 14:27
oiaohmUntil KMS goes in it will not.Feb 20 14:27
schestowitzIf they come to Linux just to run wine, then they should set expectsations accordinglyFeb 20 14:28
schestowitzLinux is now WindowsFeb 20 14:28
schestowitz*notFeb 20 14:28
schestowitzjose: have you made a wiki page?Feb 20 14:28
josenoFeb 20 14:28
oiaohmWine is the most common trigger because it pushes video card drivers to there limits.Feb 20 14:28
schestowitzFineFeb 20 14:29
oiaohmNow user can be playing a open source 3d game and have it happen too.Feb 20 14:29
schestowitzSo don't rely on WineFeb 20 14:29
schestowitzDon't do what it doesn't say on the boxFeb 20 14:29
schestowitzGNU/Linux is not a system for running .exe and .DLL filesFeb 20 14:29
oiaohmBasically its a defect in X11 simplest findable by wine.Feb 20 14:29
schestowitzIt's no place for Mono and DRM, eitherFeb 20 14:29
schestowitzSo to say Linux lacks the DRM "feature" is flawed.Feb 20 14:29
schestowitzOr "Linux can't do DirectX" wellFeb 20 14:29
schestowitzA horse is not good at swimmingFeb 20 14:30
schestowitzBut horses don't live in oceansFeb 20 14:30
oiaohmAlso that is the other thing.  Changes in the video stack of Linux makes native direct x possable.Feb 20 14:30
schestowitzX developers should not waste time bothering with MS DirectX compatFeb 20 14:30
schestowitzThey should make a strong Free desktopFeb 20 14:30
joseoiaohm, i haven't studied linux that well to judge.. hopefully i'll find time eventuallyFeb 20 14:30
josewithout being perfect, linux offers some fantastic thingsFeb 20 14:31
joseimoFeb 20 14:31
oiaohmVideo card makers made the alteration that support it schestowitzFeb 20 14:31
schestowitzoiaohm: you talk about this whole 'pragmatic' thing, where pragmatic means "like another platform"Feb 20 14:31
josethe most marketable aspects are the freedom, but you need to enable user to tap into itFeb 20 14:31
joseyou don't say freedom is great..Feb 20 14:31
schestowitzDon't try to turn horses to elephantsFeb 20 14:31
joseyou enable itFeb 20 14:31
josewe can do more in that departmentFeb 20 14:31
oiaohmVideo card memory managment in dri2 also fixes up another bug people don't notice.Feb 20 14:32
schestowitzDirectX is about fighting FreedomFeb 20 14:32
schestowitzDirectX is to be suppressedFeb 20 14:32
schestowitzWine is important, but it stifles some porting tooFeb 20 14:32
schestowitzIt gives the message that DX is OKFeb 20 14:32
oiaohmSwitch between 2 X11 servers or X11 server and Console each time is russian rollet if screen keeps working at moment.Feb 20 14:32
schestowitzLook at Picasa...Feb 20 14:32
schestowitzOr WoWFeb 20 14:32
schestowitzBad, bad...Feb 20 14:32
schestowitzSame with Moon Lie and Silver LieFeb 20 14:32
joseoiaohm, without specifics, i can't argue here one way or otherFeb 20 14:33
schestowitzNovell is used by Microsoft to pressure devs (web devs) to choose Windows DRM and MS non-standardFeb 20 14:33
schestowitz*dardsFeb 20 14:33
oiaohmBasically there are a lot of really annoying core bugs in Linux video card interfaces that need to go buy buy.Feb 20 14:33
joseare we even arguing implementation or design?Feb 20 14:33
oiaohmDesign work is done on the fixes joseFeb 20 14:33
schestowitzoiaohm: okay, so report bugsFeb 20 14:33
schestowitzIf you find them (I don;t)Feb 20 14:33
oiaohmIt the final coding and deployment of them.Feb 20 14:33
oiaohmschestowitz: have been bug reported.  They are DRI2 KMS roll outs this year.Feb 20 14:34
oiaohmThat fix the bugs.Feb 20 14:34
oiaohmSo making all those annoyances disappear for good.Feb 20 14:34
joseif i understood you, you are saying that we need more people *debugging* vid device drivers and infrastructureFeb 20 14:34
jose?Feb 20 14:34
oiaohmNot really.   New drivers coded on a infrastructure that by design can work.Feb 20 14:35
josemaybe we should very soon start a project to get linux into the hands of windows game makers everywhereFeb 20 14:35
oiaohmOld infrastructure of video card interfacing in Linux was basically broken its design.Feb 20 14:35
oiaohmToo many cooks basiclaly.   Text mode X11 Frame buffer were all trying to memory manage the video card at once without talking to each other what they were doing.Feb 20 14:36
joseoiaohm, i thought you said design was fine.. ok, so you didn't say thatFeb 20 14:36
josebut without talking specifics i can't join this argumentFeb 20 14:36
oiaohmNew design is ok.Feb 20 14:36
josedri2 is what you are talking about?Feb 20 14:37
oiaohmYep dri2 gem kms.Feb 20 14:37
josedo you mean what will come out in the upcoming X versions?Feb 20 14:37
oiaohmYepFeb 20 14:37
josei haven't kept up with this but did read about it recentlyFeb 20 14:37
oiaohmOnly been in development for 4 years.Feb 20 14:37
oiaohmSolving major video card problems is not fun.Feb 20 14:37
josewhat will be required to migrate>Feb 20 14:38
jose?Feb 20 14:38
oiaohmNot much really.Feb 20 14:38
oiaohmChange X11 server and drivers.Feb 20 14:38
oiaohmApplications don't need to know the difference.Feb 20 14:38
joseso change all drivers...Feb 20 14:38
josebut not change them much>Feb 20 14:38
jose?Feb 20 14:38
jose[keep hitting > instead of ?]Feb 20 14:38
oiaohmNo problem I read > as ?Feb 20 14:39
oiaohmOpps its X11 server Kernel and driversFeb 20 14:39
oiaohmNot that big of deal for applications since kernel swaping is done quite commonly.Feb 20 14:40
oiaohmSame with X11 version swaping.Feb 20 14:41
oiaohmthis is when having standards is great.Feb 20 14:41
MinceRiirc even oleds have burn-inFeb 20 14:42
joseschestowitz, ok i probably should start a wikipage on a distro design.Feb 20 14:42
MinceRbut my comment was regarding the different effect of waving you hand in front of the displayFeb 20 14:42
josenot sure when i will do that thoughFeb 20 14:42
MinceR:>Feb 20 14:42
oiaohmpled alteration on oled design is more resistant to it.Feb 20 14:43
oiaohmIe burn-inFeb 20 14:43
oiaohmYep crt phosopers are used in pledFeb 20 14:43
oiaohmBasically is how to make a crt flat without redraw issue.Feb 20 14:44
*Omar871 has quit (Remote closed the connection)Feb 20 14:44
joseschestowitz, how many "Jose" are thereFeb 20 14:44
joseapparently that username is takenFeb 20 14:45
josei can find something else, but i wanted to help avoid confusion by getting something like thatFeb 20 14:45
joseif you reserved it, let me know; otherwise i'll try something elseFeb 20 14:45
schestowitzjose: that would be good. I'd help outFeb 20 14:45
schestowitzI intend to work more on the Wiki in the second half of the year.Feb 20 14:46
joseis "jose" taken by someone else?Feb 20 14:46
schestowitzoiaohm: what redraw issue?Feb 20 14:46
schestowitzThat's old news.Feb 20 14:47
schestowitzjose: I don't know how many there are, but nothing beats Muhammad.Feb 20 14:47
josei'm surprised that jose would be takenFeb 20 14:48
josethat's allFeb 20 14:48
oiaohmOld news yes.  Problem is patches to fix only this year schestowitz.  Was meant to be out middle of 2008 but as per normal its going to be about a year late.  X11 project seams to need + 1 year to there time tables a lot.Feb 20 14:48
joseschestowitz, is the create account working?Feb 20 14:48
joseohFeb 20 14:49
josemy badFeb 20 14:49
josei was login inFeb 20 14:49
schestowitzoiaohm: so why bring it up?Feb 20 14:49
schestowitzit's like kicking an old Qt horse to vilify KDE.Feb 20 14:49
schestowitzjose: do a google on 'jose' and see who's #1Feb 20 14:50
oiaohmStarting advertising heavly after we have it.   People cannot pick on that bit any more.  ALos its simple to trip doing demostrations.Feb 20 14:50
schestowitzYesterday I somehow found myself in #3 spot for "roy"Feb 20 14:50
josei just grabbed "jose" btw..Feb 20 14:50
oiaohmIf you forget about it.Feb 20 14:50
schestowitzjose: register it with FreenodeFeb 20 14:50
schestowitzjose: it should (in the WikiFeb 20 14:50
josei got the impression it was already taken for freenode.Feb 20 14:51
schestowitzI suppose so.. maybe deprecatedFeb 20 14:51
josei don't expect it to be available unless there is a new service or a relatively small groupFeb 20 14:51
oiaohmAudio stack not working correctly you can live with as long as video works.Feb 20 14:51
oiaohmMS has proven that many times over the years.Feb 20 14:52
schestowitzGoogle Most Visited Property In January < >Feb 20 14:53
schestowitzVista's audio stack is a messFeb 20 14:53
joseoiaohm, do you have a link to something objective.. i have no probs with my use case and i haven't studied linux that well (ie, source code and design)Feb 20 14:53
schestowitzSame to be expected from Vista7.Feb 20 14:53
schestowitzjose: oiaohm is like Beranger in ways... he bashes Linux for reasons os supposedly improving itFeb 20 14:54
schestowitzJeremy Allison approves this behaviourFeb 20 14:55
josei have no prob discussing something to improve itFeb 20 14:55
josebut just saying things that i personally can't verify is a little bothersomeFeb 20 14:55
joseat least if the person keeps going and goingFeb 20 14:55
josei won't make a judgment on oiaohmFeb 20 14:55
josei'm interested in that stuff, btwFeb 20 14:55
oiaohmNot exacty bashing.  I have to assess stuff from deployment issues all the time.Feb 20 14:56
schestowitzBill'sBC is running gates adverts again: 20 14:56
oiaohmSometime times in open source projects it pays to wait.Feb 20 14:56
schestowitzThe BBC is corrupt, for a factFeb 20 14:56
josethat's fine, but if you give numbers, names, addresses ( ;-) ) we can better deal with the problemFeb 20 14:56
schestowitzBut they'll beautify it somehow, I'm sure.Feb 20 14:56
oiaohmOther times make sure you train users for issues they will hit.Feb 20 14:57
schestowitzLike all reporters who are selected to do thisFeb 20 14:57
josewhat i mean is that there is a fine line between helping and negative marketingFeb 20 14:57
oiaohmProblem is either way you have to aware of what issues there are.Feb 20 14:57
schestowitzThe BBC is now literally run by MS execs in some areasFeb 20 14:57
oiaohmIts bit like claiming MS has perfect secuirty.Feb 20 14:57
schestowitzIt needs to be disconnected from tax-extracted revenue.Feb 20 14:57
oiaohmEveryone who knows security now that is crap.Feb 20 14:57
josefrom personal experience i don't encounter those issues but i only do the basics with this pcFeb 20 14:57
oiaohmnow knowsFeb 20 14:58
oiaohmFor you jose this also says if you think its good now it will only get better.Feb 20 14:58
josei had a lot of fun playing openarena and some other games for the 2007 gamefest sponsored by nuxifiedFeb 20 14:58
josei bought an older nvidia card for the occasion and it worked like a charmFeb 20 14:59
schestowitzRed Hat PR.. no MS.. 20 14:59
josebut current state of art is beyond openarena&friendsFeb 20 14:59
schestowitzjose: Linux has state of the art tooFeb 20 15:00
schestowitzBut not Free softwareFeb 20 15:00
schestowitzThe Big Games that are OpenGL based sometimes come to GNU/LinuxFeb 20 15:00
josewell, i was just saying that as fun as openarena was, i can imagine that the newest of games would tax the system moreFeb 20 15:00
josefor starters, i was using an older nvidiaFeb 20 15:00
oiaohmI don't like being compared to Beranger for simple fact he and a lot of other haters have the habit of complain about things without facts.  Like I will always point to what makes the problem I am talking about disappear were I can.Feb 20 15:00
joseand gamers always want the newestFeb 20 15:00
oiaohmSo people suffering from it know what they have to wait for.Feb 20 15:01
joseoiaohm, but you have to give more detailsFeb 20 15:01
josei mean the future always always basically brings betterFeb 20 15:01
joseto judge if the present is good enough for X i have to know more detailsFeb 20 15:02
josefor my use cases X, i am fine (eg, now without a video card)Feb 20 15:02
schestowitz"As I said before ... a deal with the devil is still a deal with the devil. It's true they made no patent agreements like Novell, but I think it's still a bad decision. M$ has only one purpose, or goal, they will destroy or assimilate all competition."Feb 20 15:02
schestowitz 20 15:02
josei use somewhat oldish systems or low end.. but the games were no prob with the nvidia cardFeb 20 15:02
schestowitz"The angle seems to be that Microsoft will use their marketing muscle to encourage the customer to run a Windows Server platform and allow Red Hat as a guest. In other words, Microsoft wants the primary platform to be Microsoft with anything else virtualized."Feb 20 15:02
oiaohmDRI 2 also fixs up users who want to keep on runnign compiz on like ATI cards without issues.Feb 20 15:03
oiaohmYes flashy stuff of Linux that attracts users not working is not really good things to be causing splats.Feb 20 15:03
schestowitzMine works greatFeb 20 15:03
oiaohmVideo card schestowitzFeb 20 15:04
oiaohmMost people that have it without going nuts are running Nvidia.Feb 20 15:04
oiaohmcompiz + opengl program on DRI 1 designed drivers like ATI is unstable.Feb 20 15:04
oiaohmYep demoing compiz on ATI card at moment would be asking for trouble.Feb 20 15:05
josemost people that would demoFeb 20 15:05
josewould tell the person to be sure to have a $20 or whatever card at a minimumFeb 20 15:06
oiaohmYes no matter how much you say that there will always be a percent that go home and try it on ATI.Feb 20 15:06
joseanyway.. linux graphics chip makers are coming on board with open source and that is what was needed to keep the system cleanFeb 20 15:06
oiaohmOr Intel or via.Feb 20 15:06
oiaohmExactly the bit I am waiting for jose before pushing it hard.Feb 20 15:07
josesoon i expect to favor amd/ati over nvidia if nvidia doesn't open up and amd keeps pushing forward as they areFeb 20 15:07
schestowitzJust in: Bomb kills 28 at Shiite funeral in Pakistan < >Feb 20 15:07
oiaohmNvidia broke up the first video card allance on Linux.Feb 20 15:08
oiaohmSo it would only be fair if the secound causes them hell.Feb 20 15:08
josei am going to get off so i can work on some things.. i find it so difficult to stay on because then i feel pressured to follow the conversationsFeb 20 15:12
josetalk later.. (my email is hozelda .. domain)Feb 20 15:15
*jose has quit ("Leaving")Feb 20 15:15
schestowitzJailed SF Network Admin Terry Childs Speaks Out < >Feb 20 15:42
schestowitzOLPC offshoot.. Pixel Qi Readies Battery-saving Laptop Screens < >Feb 20 15:49
*toros has quit ("leaving")Feb 20 16:04
twitterSharp has had good low power LCDs for a long time.  They use some kind of mirror surface behind the LCD.  When you get it in the sunlight, it's as bright as the sky or sun.Feb 20 16:06
schestowitzI think her technology (Mary Lou Jespen??)  is to do with pixel compression tooFeb 20 16:08
schestowitzThe density of pixels in OLPC is high (was it two-mode?)Feb 20 16:09
twitterI hope it works well.  Don't know the density.Feb 20 16:09
twitterAny kind of deal with M$ that is used as a market distinguisher is a bad deal for free software.  Exclusivity is the antithesis of software freedom and even the hint of such exclusivity by approval or certification is evil.Feb 20 16:09
schestowitzHehe. "Meanwhile the girls are taught to be self-effacing, quiet, and that their main goal in life is to get married to a man. Mom sets such an awesome example-- she gives up her own name when she gets married, husband is the boss, boys are slobs with no household skills."Feb 20 16:12
schestowitz"Mom wears idiotic, non-functional women's clothes and hairstyles that get in the way of doing anything other than posing decoratively. Girls pick up after the boys. The world is wide-open to the boys, while the girls are steered into gentle, passive pink pursuits."  --Carla SchroderFeb 20 16:12
schestowitzRight on the money BTW: 20 16:12
schestowitz"In children's literature and entertainment, the main female characters are still delicate little princesses who need to be rescued by handsome princes. Maybe it takes an outside observer with no kids of her own to see how pervasive the old stereotypes and behaviors still are."Feb 20 16:15
schestowitzIt's worth a read. Have a look.Feb 20 16:15
schestowitz 20 16:16
twitter"oiaohm: There is one reason why some comanies would have backed OOXML without MS help.  Tax.  How do you tax free software."  LOL, governments would rather keep their citizens money in their own economy rather than exporting it to Redmond.  That way they can have a real economy.Feb 20 16:19
oiaohmNo different to cigrete company twitterFeb 20 16:20
oiaohmAustralia we don't make any.  We import the lot of ciggrettes so why does the goverment tollate it.Feb 20 16:20
twitterI agree.  M$ is like tobacco.Feb 20 16:20
schestowitzWe in the FOSS world can learn a lot from protesters against slavery and misogynists... they bother got their way after long struggles.. and their fruits are not taken for granted and taken away from fascists like Sarko and Bush.Feb 20 16:20
*amarsh04_ has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Feb 20 16:22
*amarsh04__ ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 20 16:22
twittertobacco should be banned from public places.Feb 20 16:23
schestowitzIt is here, except streetsFeb 20 16:23
twitterI've read how it cuts heart attacks by half.  That's remarkable.Feb 20 16:24
schestowitzPeople should be allowed to use it if they want to (given the facts about it), but smoking tends to spread to other people.Feb 20 16:24
twitterYou don't have the right to blow smoke in my face.Feb 20 16:24
schestowitzYes, that's the thingFeb 20 16:24
twitterI'd rather be farted on.Feb 20 16:25
schestowitzLike many other things you don't mind if people do them behind closed doorsFeb 20 16:25
schestowitzSome people ignore regulations about smokingFeb 20 16:25
schestowitzAnd it's not easy to tell people to put out their cigarettes, but I do that myself sometimes.Feb 20 16:25
twitterThe fart thing can add humor to it.  I have never seen a study showing that farts cause cancer.Feb 20 16:28
oiaohmFrom a goverment point of view children exposed to smoking are more likely to smoke.Feb 20 16:29
oiaohmSo behind closed doors is not exacty right.Feb 20 16:30
oiaohmIts not like burning is the only way to get drug out the leave.Feb 20 16:30
twitterExposing others is always wrong.Feb 20 16:30
twitterEven smoker's clothes harm children.Feb 20 16:30
oiaohmchewing works to a point but it then takes out the persons jaw because it gets the highest ammount.Feb 20 16:31
schestowitzoiaohm: assuming people smoke in isolation, not in their homes with kidsFeb 20 16:31
schestowitzoiaohm: I used to hate it when my parents' friends came over and smoked (when I was much younger).Feb 20 16:32
oiaohmEven then do you know how long ciggerate smoke stays in a building.Feb 20 16:32
twitterit stays for decades.Feb 20 16:32
twitterunless it is removed.Feb 20 16:32
oiaohmIts about 30 years threw natural decay.Feb 20 16:33
twitterI've scrapped it off windows myself.Feb 20 16:33
oiaohmfor the active drug to break down.Feb 20 16:33
schestowitzWindows with small WFeb 20 16:33
oiaohmIt kills most stuff that breaks it down.Feb 20 16:33
twitterremoving Windows from computers is much like removing tar from windows.Feb 20 16:33
schestowitzThat's the beauty of the addictive substance and how it's virally marketedFeb 20 16:33
twitterThere's nothing viral about the billboards in my city.Feb 20 16:34
schestowitzRemoving Windows requires an exorcist at $300/hr :-)Feb 20 16:34
twitterOr a 25 cent CD.Feb 20 16:35
oiaohmDepends on the size network schestowitzFeb 20 16:35
schestowitz 20 16:35
oiaohm1000 machine + start at 300/hrFeb 20 16:35
oiaohmThat is a complex prick of a job.Feb 20 16:35
oiaohmAnything else not that bad.Feb 20 16:35
twitterDoing at the OEM level:  priceless.Feb 20 16:35
oiaohmI mean a network already running windows twitterFeb 20 16:36
oiaohmConversion is a pain in ass and mostly done by custom written scriptsFeb 20 16:36
twitterI mean freedom, oiaohm.Feb 20 16:36
oiaohmMost of the 300 dollar a hour is paying for the scripts to do extraction from the old network.Feb 20 16:37
twitterright now is a good time to replace those $250 Dells and their crappy old OS.Feb 20 16:37
oiaohmIts simpler and cheeper to build a new network from ground up.Feb 20 16:38
twitterI've done an "upgrade" at a big dumb company.  The scripts talked to a GNU/Linux server.  The pain was all from non free software.Feb 20 16:38

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