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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 20th, 2009 - Part 1


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Balrogyeah.....Feb 20 00:02
schestowitzThe poor billionaires who cry over OBAMAA's should will know a real crisis when they can't feed their family, never mind casual jobs. You can't say to your kid, "look, we don't have much food this year, but next year we might, so stop eating for now and catch up next year."Feb 20 00:07
MinceRhm, i never knew keeping women like prisoners and covering them up equates to "respect"Feb 20 00:07
schestowitzA lot more interesting is the fact that a lot of them actually make a 'living' (a billion) by exploiting people in this way, targeting areas like Indonesia and Colombia. They deserve to taste their own poison.Feb 20 00:08
schestowitzMinceR:  respect is listening to what they demand. But first they need to be 'un-indoctrinated'Feb 20 00:09
schestowitz 20 00:09
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schestowitzShe's still ranked high in Google... 20 00:10
Balrogtrouble is, things move much slower than we'd like them toFeb 20 00:10
schestowitzI used to be 'Roy' number 13, IIRC.Feb 20 00:10
schestowitzThat was in 2004. Now I'm around 20thFeb 20 00:10
BalrogYou're #11Feb 20 00:10
schestowitzMe?Feb 20 00:10
BalrogyesFeb 20 00:10
Balrog 20 00:10
schestowitzWhoaFeb 20 00:11
schestowitzIn the link you sent me I'm #3Feb 20 00:11
MinceRoh, i almost forgot the part where they can't vote and can't learn. :>Feb 20 00:12
Balrogyeah it's the second pageFeb 20 00:12
schestowitzIt depends on locationFeb 20 00:12
Balrogyou're on the top hereFeb 20 00:12
Balrog(of the second page)Feb 20 00:12
schestowitzI didn't realise this even.Feb 20 00:12
schestowitzI last checked it like 4 years ago.Feb 20 00:12
MinceRgnFeb 20 00:13
schestowitzIf I'm "Roy" #3 year, then something's wrong in Google.Feb 20 00:13
Balrogit's PAGE 2Feb 20 00:13
Balrogso you're #13Feb 20 00:13
Balrog&start=10Feb 20 00:13
schestowitzI never optimised or anything for it. In fact, I hardly touch that site these daysFeb 20 00:13
schestowitzIt's all those googlebombers who get good positions for their anchor stringsFeb 20 00:13
Balrogit's probably cross-linked a lotFeb 20 00:13
schestowitzNot really.Feb 20 00:13
schestowitzNot as "Roy"Feb 20 00:14
Balrogtrue.....Feb 20 00:14
schestowitzMaybe as "schestowitz"Feb 20 00:14
schestowitzMy first and middle names are too common.Feb 20 00:15
Balroginteresting.Feb 20 00:15
BalrogYeah, MS keeps pushing their 'standards' .... I recently had a small argument with someone who defended MS and .NET for making things "easier for the developer"Feb 20 00:16
Balrogand saying that PHP is 'too complicated' and Python and Ruby are 'not used for serious stuff'Feb 20 00:16
Balrogwell, easier for the developer, right ..... until you need to maintain code for more than a few yearsFeb 20 00:16
Balrog(and ASP[X] for that matter should be included with .NET)Feb 20 00:18
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schestowitzBalrog: abstraction is OK if it's an open frameworkFeb 20 00:24
schestowitzThink of a black box that's simpleFeb 20 00:24
schestowitzLike an iPodFeb 20 00:24
Balrogwell look at Adium and TransmissionFeb 20 00:24
schestowitzGo ahead ans try to change what's inside when it fails to workFeb 20 00:24
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Balrogtwo excellent apps for MacFeb 20 00:25
schestowitzNew comment on lock-in (one minute ago): 20 00:25
Balrogboth have a library of x-platform code (libpurple and libtransmission)Feb 20 00:25
Balrogand some additional code for the Mac UI.Feb 20 00:25
schestowitzIt's like Palm... or MSN's DRM... one day the stuff goes "poof!" and you don't have much control of your data/infrastructure/whatever.Feb 20 00:26
BalrogChanges to the library normally don't make a difference to the frontend codeFeb 20 00:26
schestowitzI'd be scared of putting something proprietary on my sites... it's mostly PHP software with full access to the code.Feb 20 00:26
Balrogbut if the library is a black box .....Feb 20 00:26
BalrogYeah I'd be carefulFeb 20 00:26
schestowitzI've seen what happens to dying blobs on sitesFeb 20 00:26
BalrogJava is FOSS now, I believe ..... I hear that's what Apple uses for their site (the backend)Feb 20 00:26
schestowitzYour support system left stranded.Feb 20 00:26
Balrogyeah .... stuff fails.Feb 20 00:27
schestowitzOr has serious vulnerabilities you can do nothing about other than beg the s/w Gods.Feb 20 00:27
schestowitzAnd then PAY for the fixFeb 20 00:27
Balrogheh ... true as well.Feb 20 00:27
Balrogwell if there's a vulnerability, it should get fixed. (Though there's that convenient disclaimer in ALL software licenses, free or not.)Feb 20 00:28
schestowitzJava is good... Sun would keep it safe.. dividing up the company if necessary. There's too much Java out there. Still by far ahead as #1 P/LFeb 20 00:28
schestowitzDon't buy the BS from MS press like IDG... they attack Java for their paymastersFeb 20 00:28
BalrogYeah I'd argue there's too much. What's nice about it is that you can do the backend in Java and the frontend in PHP or another open platformFeb 20 00:29
schestowitzBalrog: yes, "get fixed"... in the "next version"... which you must buyFeb 20 00:29
Balrogand the user never has to see Java.Feb 20 00:29
schestowitzAnd the upgrade treadmill goes 'round and 'roundFeb 20 00:29
BalrogWell, the 'previous version' should be supported at least for a few years.Feb 20 00:29
schestowitzAssuming there's staff.Feb 20 00:29
schestowitzI hear the effects of MS layoffs is collsalFeb 20 00:29
schestowitzThey already need lots of stuff to maintain she shipwreack called VistaFeb 20 00:30
schestowitzSame for W2K and XP..Feb 20 00:30
schestowitzIt takes A LOT of stuffFeb 20 00:30
BalrogYeah, they cut Flight Simulator ... probably my favorite MS product (and one of the only ones I'd buy).Feb 20 00:30
schestowitzand the system is MONOLITHICFeb 20 00:30
schestowitzMeaning they must do regression testing of huge scaleFeb 20 00:30
BalrogI believe they cut W2K too.Feb 20 00:30
schestowitzIn Linux it's simplerFeb 20 00:30
schestowitzHave Greg K-H or whoever just sneak a critical fix into 2.6.27, 2.2.26Feb 20 00:31
schestowitzSlide back into Ubuntu, Fedora, etc. No mmuss, no fussFeb 20 00:31
schestowitzWith the layoffs, Microsoft can't get big enough teamsFeb 20 00:31
Balrogyes though I was recently helping someone with SLED10.1 ... really messyFeb 20 00:31
schestowitzAnd the good engineers jumped the shipFeb 20 00:31
Balrog:(Feb 20 00:31
schestowitzThat's why Vista peopel (handling just 10% of the userbase) made so many 'fixes' that rendered boxes unbootableFeb 20 00:31
schestowitzMicrosoft assigned the good engineers to maintaining XPFeb 20 00:32
Balrogproblem is, he wanted to use this: which only works on SLED10.1Feb 20 00:32
schestowitzBecause it's critical (50%+)Feb 20 00:32
BalrogI've seen fixes for XP that made it unbootable.Feb 20 00:32
schestowitzVista7 is developed almost entirely in IndiaFeb 20 00:32
schestowitzBangalore IIRCFeb 20 00:32
schestowitzBalrog: I hardly used XPFeb 20 00:33
BalrogAll I hear about 7 is that it's a remake of vista that runs somewhat better. Though some tests indicated that speed isn't any better.Feb 20 00:33
schestowitzI did a few times, but never on my computersFeb 20 00:33
schestowitzI never had an XP partitionFeb 20 00:33
schestowitzBeing "better than Vista" doesn't say muchFeb 20 00:34
BalrogThe only reason I use XP is because of certain proprietary software that's only for XP. Usually in a VM though. I have a second partition, but that's extremely volatile .... one week Vista, another week, some other OSFeb 20 00:34
Balrogmainly for testingFeb 20 00:34
schestowitzChicken legs are better than cockroach on your plateFeb 20 00:34
Balrog7 inherits many of the flaws from Vista .... I'm sure.Feb 20 00:34
*schestowitz was once served chicken legs in a Chinese restaurant... couldn't touch the thing.Feb 20 00:34
BalroghehFeb 20 00:34
schestowitzWe went there after submitting a paperFeb 20 00:35
Balrogand....Feb 20 00:35
schestowitzWell, I can't recall.Feb 20 00:35
Balrogok.Feb 20 00:35
schestowitzIt was probably acceptedFeb 20 00:35
BalrogI see.Feb 20 00:35
schestowitzIPMI maybe.Feb 20 00:36
schestowitzI can't recall which one it was..Feb 20 00:36
Balrogit's fine in any caseFeb 20 00:36
Balrogthe university I work /study at uses Samba for Windows auth (pulling data from LDAP) .... They used to use NT4 until a couple of years agoFeb 20 00:37
BalrogIt's nasty that Samba client for Solaris doesn't work well with the Linux server. :(Feb 20 00:37
BalrogerrFeb 20 00:37
BalrogI meant LDAPFeb 20 00:37
BalrogSo we're stuck using old-fashioned NIS for now.Feb 20 00:38
schestowitzLDAP was Sun's...?Feb 20 00:38
*schestowitz can't recallFeb 20 00:38
schestowitzOr just NFSFeb 20 00:38
Balrogtheir LDAP implementation is ever-so-slightly differentFeb 20 00:38
BalrogNFS and YP (NIS) I believeFeb 20 00:38
Balrogthey push their LDAP service ... but we want a unified databaseFeb 20 00:39
Balrogalso interesting is that Solaris (by default) uses old-fashioned UNIX crypto for password hashesFeb 20 00:39
BalrogI hear that OpenSolaris does it right though, but that's not being used at the momentFeb 20 00:40
schestowitzI used to do a lot of LDAP at workFeb 20 00:40
Balrogso would you know how to make Solaris clients work with a Linux (openLDAP) server?Feb 20 00:40
schestowitzOpenSolaris.. I wonder where it will be in 2010Feb 20 00:41
BalrogI couldn't find much docs online.Feb 20 00:41
BalrogNexenta seems promising.Feb 20 00:41
schestowitzWhat for though? Server?Feb 20 00:41
BalrogTo have a Solaris client authenticate with a Linux serverFeb 20 00:41
Balrog(solaris ldap client ---> Linux LDAP server)Feb 20 00:41
schestowitzThey have mindshare problem, like GNU and many distrosFeb 20 00:41
schestowitzOpenWHAT?Feb 20 00:42
schestowitzSlowaris?Feb 20 00:42
schestowitzPeople know "Linux"Feb 20 00:42
Balrogyeah, unfortunatelyFeb 20 00:42
schestowitzAnd the legendary image of emperor LinusFeb 20 00:42
schestowitzThe inventor of "Linux", the Finnish operating system :-)Feb 20 00:42
BalrogSolaris 10 runs usably on these 650MHz UltraSPARC-II-powered Sun Blade 150s.....Feb 20 00:42
schestowitzI saw an article about this easrlier. todayFeb 20 00:43
schestowitz 20 00:43
Balrogand Linux isn't really and option because of the hardware. They have SunPCi cards (AMD PC on a card) but the only supported linux is Red Hat 9 and RHEL 3Feb 20 00:43
Balrogkernel 2.4Feb 20 00:43
Balrogthey really improved with 10Feb 20 00:43
Balrog(Solaris, that is)Feb 20 00:44
Balrogspeed is so much better .... though the UI is like Windows (the taskbar and 'launch' menu and all)Feb 20 00:44
Balrogalso .... those PC on a card devices only have drivers for .... a Solaris hostFeb 20 00:45
schestowitz"Like Windows" = like PARC?Feb 20 00:45
schestowitzOr like early Macs?Feb 20 00:45
schestowitzWatch the background: 20 00:45
BalrogI'm talking about the taskbar, 'start' menu, etcFeb 20 00:46
Balrogyeah I have one of those .... was my first real computer :)Feb 20 00:46
schestowitzThat';s the Mac he was doing his -copying- INNOVA~1 from..Feb 20 00:46
Balrogdefinitely NOT like windows.Feb 20 00:46
schestowitz:-)Feb 20 00:46
Balrogyeah and Apple had to give everything away to M$ in a perpetual licensing deal that later caused their lawsuit to be thrown outFeb 20 00:47
Balrogand then let the code rot .... much like MS is doing todayFeb 20 00:47
Balrog(Mac version 7 was the last really stable version ... 8 and 9 were slower and crashed more. X changed things, but it's a completely different codebase)Feb 20 00:48
Balrogthat's what happens when marketing people run the company :/Feb 20 00:48
*schestowitz used Mac OS 9 at work for 1-2 yearsFeb 20 00:48
Balroghow was it?Feb 20 00:49
schestowitzOK for my needsFeb 20 00:49
schestowitzI mostly read papers on itFeb 20 00:49
schestowitzThe rendering and screen were high qualityFeb 20 00:49
Balrogwell it's ok. Not entirely stable, though. The reliance on Motorola 68000 assembly code were problematic.Feb 20 00:49
BalrogYeah, definitely better than Windows :p .... OS X definitely beats it with rendering and stability (true, it's not open like linux, but its crash-rate is close to zero, unlike windows).Feb 20 00:50
BalrogRemember, Apple released OS 9 at about the same time as WinMEFeb 20 00:51
Balrogand we all know how terrible ME was :pFeb 20 00:51
schestowitzMacs freeze houghFeb 20 00:52
schestowitzNot routinelyFeb 20 00:52
schestowitzJust once in a long time... total deadlockFeb 20 00:52
schestowitzNever happens to me with GNU/LinuxFeb 20 00:52
schestowitzIf -- and only if because it's super rare -- I can't handle it from tty7, then moving over to tty1 or sshing from outside would helpFeb 20 00:52
Balrogyou mean OS X or 9 and before...? With OS X, hardware is a big culprit. The recent nVidia mess, and even slightly-flaky memory, are big culpritsFeb 20 00:53
schestowitzThat's because Macs and Windows are 'work toys'Feb 20 00:53
schestowitzCritical uptime is just a nice-to-haveFeb 20 00:53
BalrogI have a Macbook Pro that's affected by the nVidia problem that already got 'fixed' once (well not really; problem came back)Feb 20 00:53
schestowitzIntel and other h/w companies that require a robust system moved to Linux long agoFeb 20 00:53
Balrogdo something GPU-intensive, and the thing locks upFeb 20 00:53
schestowitzMine is OK... for now.Feb 20 00:54
Balrogif it's a laptop with nvidia, be careful.Feb 20 00:54
schestowitzIt goes wonky maybe once in 2 months (rendering oopsie, nothing critical or persistent).Feb 20 00:54
Balrogthis problem is much more widespread than previously believed.Feb 20 00:54
schestowitzBalrog: yes, I know.Feb 20 00:54
Balroga messed up display is a telltale sign .... also loss of response ... and error messages likeFeb 20 00:56
Balrog/usr/libexec/hidd25 IOHIDEventQueueEnqueue: Error enqueing memory. (0xe00002e8)Feb 20 00:56
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Balrogand kernel[0]: NVChannel(GL): Graphics channel timeout!Feb 20 00:57
Balrogwritten to the logsFeb 20 00:57
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Balrogand many nVidia 9600 chips were also affectedFeb 20 00:57
schestowitzYes, I wrote a lot about itFeb 20 00:58
schestowitzNot in B.N..Feb 20 00:58
Balrogbut where?Feb 20 00:58
schestowitzIt ruined NViddia.Feb 20 00:58
schestowitz 20 00:58
schestowitzMaybe they can 'pull a Blackwater' and change names.Feb 20 00:59
Balrognow they're telling OEMs to buy new chipsFeb 20 00:59
Balrog 20 00:59
BalroghehFeb 20 00:59
schestowitzThere's this talk (maybe a Microsoft one) about changing names to rescue a wounded brandFeb 20 00:59
Balrogunfortunately, nVidia are the best when it comes to performance.Feb 20 00:59
schestowitzIt takes s generation to recover otherwise.Feb 20 00:59
BalrogChanging names won't help; fixing the product will.Feb 20 00:59
schestowitzMS: "Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2." Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry." 20 01:00
schestowitzNvidia got many of the SGI skills and people, no?Feb 20 01:00
schestowitzThey left the dedicated machines and made miniature ones.Feb 20 01:00
BalrogLike OS 9 vs OS X .... many people I know hated 9 .... many of them still hate Macs because of it. But those who know what X is like don't think that way (for the most part)Feb 20 01:00
Balrogheh ...Feb 20 01:01
Balrogthey should be able to do it right.Feb 20 01:01
schestowitzSilicon Graphics renamed too, AFAIKFeb 20 01:01
schestowitzInterface21...Feb 20 01:01
BalrogI believe they're still SGIFeb 20 01:02
BalrogThey did switch to Itanium and RHEL thoughFeb 20 01:02
Balrogand XeonFeb 20 01:02
schestowitzRHEL?Feb 20 01:03
Balrogredhat enterprise linuxFeb 20 01:03
schestowitzI know about Linux on XeonsFeb 20 01:03
schestowitzI thought they had their own variant.Feb 20 01:04
schestowitzNo?Feb 20 01:04
schestowitzCan't recall if there was some name..Feb 20 01:04
*schestowitz googlesFeb 20 01:04
BalrogThey used to have IRIX ... but they scrapped it when they switched architecture from MIPS to Itanium and X86_64Feb 20 01:04
schestowitz 20 01:04
Balrogthey implemented an emulator to run MIPS/IRIX softwareFeb 20 01:04
Balrogthat's interestingFeb 20 01:05
schestowitzThey could do what CERN did with ScientificFeb 20 01:05
schestowitzI'd be surprised if they didn't.Feb 20 01:05
BalrogCERN Scientific.....?Feb 20 01:05
schestowitz"SGI Advanced Linux Environment is based on and designed to be binary compatible with Red Hat Enterprise Linux Advanced Serve"Feb 20 01:06
schestowitz 20 01:06
BalrogI see. Must be a derivativeFeb 20 01:06
schestowitzSo I remembered correctly.Feb 20 01:06
Balrog(with the IRIX compatibility framework)Feb 20 01:06
schestowitzBalrog: like centos, startcom, unbreakable, xos, etc.Feb 20 01:06
Balrognote that they also support SLES :/Feb 20 01:07
Balrogyeah.Feb 20 01:07
schestowitzSLES might not prosper for longFeb 20 01:09
Balrogyeah...Feb 20 01:09
schestowitz 20 01:09
Balrogthough many people I know like opensuseFeb 20 01:09
schestowitzThe sooner, the betterFeb 20 01:09
schestowitzWe need a strong DebianFeb 20 01:09
schestowitzThey did well with 5.0Feb 20 01:09
Balrogand FedoraFeb 20 01:09
schestowitzFedoredhatFeb 20 01:09
Balrog:ppFeb 20 01:09
Balrog:pFeb 20 01:09
schestowitzSome Debian devs read BNFeb 20 01:10
Balrogin any case, nVidia has CUDA, and their proprietary Linux driver works well (at least); ATI's is not as good, and there's no CUDA framework (it's nvidia's anyway)Feb 20 01:10
schestowitzRed Hat employees too, but  I'd rather promote things like E17 and OpenMokoFeb 20 01:10
schestowitz"I am not surprised. We desparately want to stay with GroupWise but are forced to used the Outlook client and Groupwise connector to ensure compatiblity with other mission critical products which are only built using .net technology and require the Outlook frontend. Unfortunately Novell has ceased development of the Groupwise connector which means we lack some of the functionality we enjoyed with the Groupwise client."Feb 20 01:11
schestowitzThey hopefully know about FOSS subsititute.Feb 20 01:11
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schestowitzWhy is it that people assume it's either Lotus, GW, or Outlook???Feb 20 01:11
schestowitzLotus = 'open' ployFeb 20 01:11
schestowitzScamming with the 'open' labelFeb 20 01:11
Balrogyeah. it's good; I don't quite agree with *everything* (like I'm for the FSF in the iPhone DMCA exception issue, but I don't see why Apple has to support the software on devices you tinker with), and I have mixed feelings about OS X on PC's .... probably quality would suffer.Feb 20 01:12
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BalrogMigration is a problem. If it isn't easy, they don't want to do itFeb 20 01:12
schestowitzAnd then there's 'the cloud' (proprietary, lock-in) like GoogeFeb 20 01:12
Balrogthe uni (a different department than the one I worked with) moved to gmail for student mailFeb 20 01:12
Balrogone I work in ***Feb 20 01:12
schestowitzBad.Feb 20 01:13
schestowitzThey sell the kids to Google.Feb 20 01:13
Balrogyeah, but their old email system was worse.Feb 20 01:13
schestowitzThey prepare them to become customers.Feb 20 01:13
BalrogI do hear that Google has to comply with the uni's TOS thoughFeb 20 01:13
schestowitzBalrog: doesn't matterFeb 20 01:13
Balrogtrue, trueFeb 20 01:13
schestowitzOver here we used HordeFeb 20 01:13
schestowitzGoogle Mail/.edu = lazy adminsFeb 20 01:13
schestowitz"Hey, Charlie, what did you do 'bout mail?"Feb 20 01:14
Balrogtrue, it's not the admins I work with who have control over thisFeb 20 01:14
schestowitzCharles the admin: "oh, I just phoned Google and let them take over the whole shebang"Feb 20 01:14
BalrogI work with the computer science dept adminsFeb 20 01:14
Balrognot the school's computer services adminsFeb 20 01:14
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schestowitz**Google gleefully rubs hands together over blood of kids for G-Generation **Feb 20 01:14
BalrogThe CIS division (where I work) has no webmailFeb 20 01:15
Balrogyou log in through SSH and use PINEFeb 20 01:15
schestowitzChoosing GMail for education gives ammo against the .edu detractorsFeb 20 01:15
Balrogor use IMAP + SMTPFeb 20 01:15
schestowitzThe hyporcrisy problemFeb 20 01:15
Balrogit's still .edu, but run by gmailFeb 20 01:15
schestowitz"But Charlie (!!!) Microsoft is a criminal company, with lots of proof!"Feb 20 01:15 means something else in this contextFeb 20 01:16
schestowitzIt's Microsoft's additionwareFeb 20 01:16
schestowitzOr "software molestation" as I'd like to call itFeb 20 01:16
schestowitzThey give universities 'gifts'.... like free vending machines with ciggsFeb 20 01:16
Balrogyeah MS does thatFeb 20 01:17
Balrogour admins (CIS department) don't like MS that much thoughFeb 20 01:17
schestowitz 20 01:18
Balrogthey don't like it at all ... I heard, a few times, 'F--- Microsoft'Feb 20 01:18
schestowitzI have moreFeb 20 01:18
schestowitzSome links of backward-cross-cites at bottomFeb 20 01:18
Balrogfrom the systems engineer (who does most of the work)Feb 20 01:18
schestowitzThey try it in UNISA now.Feb 20 01:18
schestowitzSA: 20 01:18
schestowitzHijacking PT edu: (ping trmanco )Feb 20 01:19
BalrogI can tell you that piracy is rampant in UkraineFeb 20 01:19
schestowitzReally?Feb 20 01:20
schestowitzThey have seas?Feb 20 01:20
Balrogno, software piracy of WindowsFeb 20 01:21
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schestowitzThey ship Windows in ships?Feb 20 01:21
schestowitzWhy not trucks?Feb 20 01:21
schestowitzWould be cheaper... maybe safer too if there are piratesFeb 20 01:21
Balrogheh ... I meant copying and usingFeb 20 01:22
schestowitzOh.Feb 20 01:22
schestowitzCounterfeitingFeb 20 01:22
Balrogyeah you could say that ...Feb 20 01:22
schestowitzThey should 'counterfeit' the GNUFeb 20 01:22
Balrogexcept not paid counterfeitFeb 20 01:22
schestowitzIt smiles when that happensFeb 20 01:22
schestowitzIn fact, it's strongly encouragedFeb 20 01:22
Balrogmore like friends copying and giving to friendsFeb 20 01:22
schestowitz 20 01:23
schestowitzSee prints on the CDFeb 20 01:23
schestowitz"Legally free to copy..."Feb 20 01:23
BalrogI pass around Ubuntu when I can :)Feb 20 01:23
Balrogyeah lolFeb 20 01:23
schestowitzI get my CDs second hand..Feb 20 01:24
schestowitzSo I don't get counted as 'download'Feb 20 01:24
Balrogcan't you get it by directly downloading from the mirror (FTP)?Feb 20 01:25
Balrogand circumvent the counterFeb 20 01:25
schestowitzI guess so..Feb 20 01:26
schestowitzNumbers are for marketing peopleFeb 20 01:26
schestowitzIn BN I use distributed cache a lotFeb 20 01:26
schestowitzSo I can't brag about traffic numbers.Feb 20 01:27
schestowitzLike with Linux, it's about getting those bits 'out there'..Feb 20 01:27
Balrogtrue.Feb 20 01:27
schestowitzMarketing: the art of shamelessly coming up with deceptive methods/measures to boost perceptionFeb 20 01:27
schestowitzPR/advertising: how to choose images (or videos) that impact people's perception Feb 20 01:28
schestowitzWatch Tv...Feb 20 01:28
schestowitzCount how many ads actually talk about the products's meritFeb 20 01:28
schestowitzAlmost none.Feb 20 01:28
schestowitzJust imagery, soothing voices and talking points.Feb 20 01:28
Balrogyes. Some are more true than others.Feb 20 01:29
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BalrogApple's recent ads haven't been that bad. True, they may overstate the situation, but they're correct about how Windows sucks. :)Feb 20 01:31
schestowitzI haven't watched these.Feb 20 01:32
schestowitzI hardly watch TVFeb 20 01:32
schestowitzIt's mesmerizing.Feb 20 01:32
Balrogthey're on youtube and Apple's site....short 30-second clips that prove a pointFeb 20 01:33
Balrogor drive a point home, you could sayFeb 20 01:33
BalrogI find the fixing vista one pretty coolFeb 20 01:35
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Balrog 20 01:37
Balrogcalled "bean counter"Feb 20 01:37
schestowitzInteresting post: 20 01:39
BalrogThis was when they were spending millions on the Seinfeld ads and "I'm a PC"Feb 20 01:39
schestowitzBalrog: seen that one, thanks. Put it in my blog tooFeb 20 01:39
BalrogWhat I see happening is that ads like this remove credibility from Windows, and Mac sells more, but as many people don't like Apple, they'll use Linux. So Windows market share will dropFeb 20 01:41
schestowitzApple loses popularity as it gains vanityFeb 20 01:42
Balrogsame thing with the iPhone ... it sets a standard, then Android will sell more to people who don't want iPhoneFeb 20 01:42
schestowitzI used to perceive Apple as gentleFeb 20 01:42
Balrogyeah they have to be careful of that.Feb 20 01:42
schestowitzWhen I used OS 9 anyway..Feb 20 01:42
BalrogWell, Steve Jobs was never gentle.Feb 20 01:42
schestowitzNot I just think about arrogant cocks like the ones in the ad when I touch OS X...Feb 20 01:42
BalrogYeah, some things their legal dept does is not right...Feb 20 01:43
Balrogwhich ad?Feb 20 01:43
schestowitzMac guy..Feb 20 01:43
schestowitzYoung stupid prick.Feb 20 01:43
Balrogah ... that's the marketing department.Feb 20 01:43
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schestowitzAlmost makes you feel bad for the comedian.Feb 20 01:43
schestowitzBalrog: maybe Apple goes for the nicheFeb 20 01:43
BalrogI think that might be a pointFeb 20 01:44
schestowitzThe 'ol skool gangsta' kipstersFeb 20 01:44
schestowitz"Be BAD! Use Apple"Feb 20 01:44
schestowitz*hipsterFeb 20 01:44
Balroghmm ... not necessarily. If you ask 10 people, each one will probably tell you something differentFeb 20 01:44
Balrogperson *Feb 20 01:44
schestowitzI don't like how they adverise OSesFeb 20 01:45
schestowitzLike they advertise politiciansFeb 20 01:45
schestowitzThey use faces...Feb 20 01:45
schestowitzImagieryFeb 20 01:45
schestowitzLike the Obama brandFeb 20 01:45
*zer0c00l says good morningFeb 20 01:45
schestowitzNever mind his policy.. he has kids...and a wife.. and faith.Feb 20 01:45
schestowitzBalrog: sure, perceptions varyFeb 20 01:45
Balrogthat sticks in people's minds. And mainly casts Windows in a bad light.Feb 20 01:46
schestowitzBut that's because some people are made to think superficially.Feb 20 01:46
Balrogthat kind of advertising works. The Gates-Seinfeld ads don'tFeb 20 01:46
schestowitzLike girls who dig guys in suits and Rolls Royce.Feb 20 01:46
BalroghehFeb 20 01:46
schestowitzThis does not make the asessment creiteria rightFeb 20 01:46
schestowitzWe need to educate people not to be wooed (passive)Feb 20 01:46
schestowitzBut that would make them harder to controFeb 20 01:47
schestowitzYou can "sell a war" for exampleFeb 20 01:47
BalrogI hear that some of the newer ads (particularly iPhone) just show the product and third-party appsFeb 20 01:47
Balrogdefinitely.Feb 20 01:47
Balrogbut people are gullible .... like sheepFeb 20 01:47
schestowitzYou teach people to trust words, not to ask "Wait! Is this true?"Feb 20 01:47
schestowitzBalrog: because they are brought up to be sheepFeb 20 01:47
schestowitzAnd yes, it's possible to change thatFeb 20 01:48
schestowitzLook how different culture perceive pacifismFeb 20 01:48
Balrogand it takes a long time for things like that to change.Feb 20 01:48
Balroglike the whole thing with Microsoft .... people were led to believe that Windows is the only real OS, and then they kept buying into it. That's now changing, but after how many years...?Feb 20 01:50
schestowitzThey were given no choiceFeb 20 01:51
schestowitzMicrosoft restricted OEMsFeb 20 01:51
schestowitzNo visibility, no choice in mind of buyerFeb 20 01:51
schestowitzBundlign...Feb 20 01:51
schestowitzHold on...Feb 20 01:51
Balrogbasically that's true. But back in the day there was CP/M, OS/2, etcFeb 20 01:51
BalrogokFeb 20 01:51
Balrogthose other platforms were more expensiveFeb 20 01:52
schestowitzRead this mail: 20 01:52
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BalrogI saw that.Feb 20 01:53
Balrogeven Macs came with IE by OS 8Feb 20 01:53
Balrog(though that's not the exact point here)Feb 20 01:53
schestowitzHaha.Feb 20 01:54
schestowitzYeah.. seen the video of MacWorld 1997 (IIRC)?Feb 20 01:54
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schestowitzJobs on why to bundle IEFeb 20 01:54
BalrogI saw clips of itFeb 20 01:54
schestowitzRe: Mossberg, it's about Microsoft comparing OEMs to "our delivery people"Feb 20 01:55
schestowitzemphasis there on their OEM analogyFeb 20 01:55
schestowitzFull video here: 20 01:55
Balrogyeah. With OEM's they don't have to worry about the consumerFeb 20 01:55
Balrogthe OEM is the consumerFeb 20 01:55
schestowitzMicrosoft attended MacWorld again this year... it's dead (IDG, IIRC)Feb 20 01:56
BalrogBy 10.2.8, Safari 1.0 came out .... true, it had some problems early on (source didn't get released, etc), but today, WebKit is fully open source (with a repo and bugzilla), and one of the most standards-compliant browsers out thereFeb 20 01:56
schestowitzWatch James P on how to crash Mac events.Feb 20 01:56
Balrogyeah I hear it's dead.Feb 20 01:56
schestowitz 20 01:56
schestowitz"First there was the Mac App Developers Conference. I was on the Board of Directors of the Mac App Developers Association long ago, and after I left I worked to try to turn it into a cross-platform developers conference, and I did. I managed to make it.. their last conference was very cross-platforn, both Windows and Macintosh, which of course turned off their Macintosh audience; half of the conference was irrelevant to them. They Feb 20 01:57
schestowitzdidn’t care about Windows."Feb 20 01:57
schestowitz"They were a bunch of Mac guys. Which diluted the value of the conference. And they didn’t know how to advertise the Windows guys when the Windows guys showe dup. So they lost money that year and the group folded. Oh, well. One less channel of communication that Apple can use to reach its developers."Feb 20 01:57
schestowitz"Screw Apple, they don’t need my help. And so the conference died, so that’s two. I’m working on two other Mac conferences now."Feb 20 01:57
schestowitzWhat a bunch of LOVELY people there at Microsoft, eh?Feb 20 01:58
BalrogI see.Feb 20 01:58
BalrogWriting code for Mac at that time wasn't as pretty as today thoughFeb 20 01:58
Balrogtoday, you can write code that's mostly shared, or use GTK/Qt and have it like 99% sharedFeb 20 01:58
schestowitzMakes you wonder if Apple can somehow sue over confessions like thisFeb 20 01:58
Balrogmay not be as pretty thoughFeb 20 01:58
schestowitzRead about the heart attack thing... what a slimy weaselFeb 20 01:59
BalrogI don't think they care.Feb 20 01:59
schestowitzHe tried to see how much dirt we have on him.Feb 20 01:59
schestowitzAnd worry not, I have lots more Comes in store... second half of this year hopefully.Feb 20 01:59
Balrogheart attack...?Feb 20 01:59
schestowitzRead the talk.Feb 20 01:59
Balrogany keyword to find it quick?Feb 20 01:59
Balrogor is it in the pdf?Feb 20 02:00
schestowitzIs Firefox really that bad? < >Feb 20 02:00
schestowitzBalrog: try "she" or "her"Feb 20 02:00
schestowitzIt was a lady who ran the confFeb 20 02:00
schestowitzAt some stage I'll need to categorise -- properly -- the 5600 posts or so we have in BN... I'll use the WikiFeb 20 02:01
Balrogyou mean stroke?Feb 20 02:02
BalrogI see.\Feb 20 02:02
schestowitzYesFeb 20 02:02
schestowitzDana has become a troll... When will enterprises contribute to open source? < >. I think it's best to just ignore him now.. just provacative.Feb 20 02:04
schestowitz*vocaFeb 20 02:04
Balrogwhat about Oracle?Feb 20 02:04
schestowitzHe one made Grolaw blog of the year.... but he sure ain't one... not for FOSS anywayFeb 20 02:05
schestowitzBalrog: he misunderstands the marketFeb 20 02:05
schestowitzHe doesn't even use FOSS like OpenOffice.orgFeb 20 02:05
Balrog(Oracle contributed code to Linux)...Feb 20 02:05
BalrogI see.Feb 20 02:05
schestowitzSo he makes incorrect remarksFeb 20 02:05
schestowitzHe never used Linux until months agoFeb 20 02:05 has its problems .... could be fasterFeb 20 02:06
Balrogof course, it does beat office.Feb 20 02:06
schestowitzAnd he has run a LINUX blog at Ziff|gates|zdnet for YEARSFeb 20 02:06
Balrog(The MS product)Feb 20 02:06
Balrogwell, practice what you preach!!! COME ON!!!Feb 20 02:06
schestowitzOOo does standardsFeb 20 02:06
Balrogyes that's a good thingFeb 20 02:06
schestowitzSo I get to keep my data without Bill's permissionFeb 20 02:06
schestowitzI'm going to write about him tomorrow... he didn't know LiMo is Linux :-D that was hours ago.Feb 20 02:07
BalrogI like how iWork does stuff .... different but very usableFeb 20 02:09
Balrogtrue, it's not a fully-open file spec, but it's at least readable XML and easily convertedFeb 20 02:10
schestowitzCheney employed to start blog about disarmament... news at 11!!1Feb 20 02:10
BalroghehFeb 20 02:11
Balrogwell I have to go now.Feb 20 02:18
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schestowitzcya l8rFeb 20 02:20
schestowitzpleasure talking to you.Feb 20 02:20
BalrognpFeb 20 02:20
*schestowitz needs to figure out how to fight Silver LiesFeb 20 02:21
schestowitzOn Saturday maybe..Feb 20 02:21
schestowitzHorrible disease... right on the wires, served by innocent modemsFeb 20 02:22
schestowitzDouble-layered encryption.. network transmission+WinDRMFeb 20 02:22
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joseschestowitz, [I'll leave quickly] when the question comes up over whether ms will buy novl..Feb 20 02:27
josei'm thinking that novell leadership will be looking for a good deal from ms (and hence kissing arr)Feb 20 02:27
josebut ms' interest is to have novell be weak but in the meantime serve as followsFeb 20 02:28
joseeverything novell has at time T is to be taken my MS (dotnet clones help here)Feb 20 02:28
josefor everyone that ms can't reach, they try to pull them in through novell or a similar proxy.Feb 20 02:29
joseso novell scoops up linux.. netware and eventually linux are scooped up to msFeb 20 02:29
schestowitzMS won't buy Novell.. yetFeb 20 02:29
joseso ms probably does want to hollow out novell and vmware, etcFeb 20 02:29
schestowitzToo valuable as separate... like sellout analystsFeb 20 02:29
josethe employees that aren't of maximum use are threatenedFeb 20 02:29
schestowitz"Turncoats" as Shane called themFeb 20 02:29
joseIP, customers, and partners are all probably on their way over to msFeb 20 02:30
joseyes,Feb 20 02:30
schestowitzjose: yes, it's true.Feb 20 02:30
schestowitzIf Novell has impact in projects, then so does MirosoftFeb 20 02:30
schestowitzLike Citrix with XenFeb 20 02:30
schestowitzor EMC with VMwareFeb 20 02:30
schestowitzRemember the "join us or die" bannerFeb 20 02:31
schestowitzIt's like a big collusionFeb 20 02:31
josecitrix has been successful/useful for a while.. to last you have to be useful to ms over and overFeb 20 02:31
josenovell might just die by themselvesFeb 20 02:31
joseif they do a very good job, ms may still allow them to go under (and speed it up by taking their customers)Feb 20 02:31
schestowitzOr employeesFeb 20 02:31
schestowitzMicrosoft grabs Novell employeesFeb 20 02:31
josesince someone close to ms perhaps can buy out the leftovers of novellFeb 20 02:31
schestowitzThat helps them serve as bridgesFeb 20 02:32
josebut novell might in fact be helped out.. who knowsFeb 20 02:32
schestowitzSo Joe Dobbs from Novell comes as MS representative to Novell....Feb 20 02:32
schestowitzNovell is run by gullible people.Feb 20 02:32
schestowitzIdiots like Bruce and Steinman.Feb 20 02:33
schestowitzThey just think "IP" and "soliutions" and Microsoft the 'great model'Feb 20 02:33
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josenovell also has people that were surprised and simply want a jobFeb 20 02:35
josein any case, the important point is for the community to recognize what is going onFeb 20 02:35
joseso we treat what surrounds novell adequatelyFeb 20 02:36
josems gets a lot of free marketing from the hoards that reach out to kiss their arsFeb 20 02:36
josems let's most fail or grovel for as long as possibleFeb 20 02:36
schestowitzYesFeb 20 02:37
schestowitz"Microsoft is in peace with Linux" is the message Novell reps must sendFeb 20 02:37
schestowitzIt's part of the dealFeb 20 02:37
schestowitz"Microsoft is cooperative *cough cough* OOXML CORRUPTIONS *cough"Feb 20 02:38
schestowitzNovell also gets the regulators off Microsoft't backFeb 20 02:38
schestowitzWith Silver Lie..Feb 20 02:38
schestowitzWith 'interop'...Feb 20 02:38
joseyears ago i a poster mentioned how horrible it was all the ms vip people who put so much work to help the overall ms community voluntarilyFeb 20 02:38
josethose people would get a lot more return for their investment from linuxFeb 20 02:38
schestowitzI got your LT talkback about interopFeb 20 02:38
schestowitzI'll cite it maybe tomorrowFeb 20 02:38
schestowitzBig post about Red Hat-MS coming..Feb 20 02:39
josei posted to the samba thread.. are those the ones you mean?Feb 20 02:39
schestowitzI think so.Feb 20 02:40
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schestowitzWith PDFs citedFeb 20 02:40
josei also posted to the red hat vm agreement threadFeb 20 02:41
josein each i spoke about interop i thinkFeb 20 02:41
jose 20 02:41
joseandFeb 20 02:41
jose 20 02:41
[H]omerRoy. some interesting newsFeb 20 02:41
[H]omerI've just joined BLAGFeb 20 02:41
josei'll leave soon roy.. everyone.Feb 20 02:41
[H]omerThey need help after the main developer leftFeb 20 02:42
[H]omerSo I've stepped inFeb 20 02:42
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*schestowitz makes teat at 3amFeb 20 02:44
schestowitz*teaFeb 20 02:44
schestowitz[H]omer: great news, great causeFeb 20 02:44
schestowitzWe talked about BLAG here yesterdayFeb 20 02:44
schestowitzBLAG is FSF approved IIRC (90% sure)Feb 20 02:45
joseblag the distro?Feb 20 02:45
josei was googlingFeb 20 02:45
jose 20 02:46
*schestowitz can now say that #bn moderator is the developer of FSF's blessed 'RHEL'Feb 20 02:47
jose 20 02:47
schestowitzWas it Rahul who maintains Omega?Feb 20 02:47
joselooks interesting.. may have heard of it but don't remember anything about itFeb 20 02:47
joseseems the last release was midyear last yearFeb 20 02:48
schestowitz 20 02:48
schestowitz 20 02:48
schestowitz 20 02:48
schestowitz 20 02:48
schestowitzBLAG is the antithesis of Novell/SLE*. [H]omer: should I add a BLAG banner to BN homepage?Feb 20 02:49
schestowitzIt's: 1) Red Hat; and it's 2) respectful to Free software. It's the Antichri.. err.. antinovellFeb 20 02:50
joselater.Feb 20 02:55
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[H]omerI'm still here ... having major conversations all over the placeFeb 20 03:14
[H]omerWowFeb 20 03:14
[H]omerRoy, yes please add a banner. We need all the publicity we can getFeb 20 03:15
schestowitzCool!Feb 20 03:17
schestowitzThis logo OK? 20 03:19
schestowitzIn Green: 20 03:20
[H]omerThe light-blue is nicerFeb 20 03:20
balzac 20 03:21
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balzacredhat is proudly displaying their logo juxtaposed to M$' logoFeb 20 03:22
balzacickFeb 20 03:22
schestowitzYuck indeedFeb 20 03:22
schestowitzReminds me of Novell's sitesFeb 20 03:22
balzacyeahFeb 20 03:23
[H]omerOK, so I have jebba's build scripts ... loosely a "buildsystem". I'll be hosting on Slated at some pointFeb 20 03:23
[H]omerThe build will take a few days to get throughFeb 20 03:23
[H]omerFix issues, etcFeb 20 03:23
balzacthat is why I don't want an RHCE cert anymoreFeb 20 03:23
balzacDoes the RH CEO think he's Barack Obama, reaching out across the aisle?Feb 20 03:24
balzacRH should not support RH virtual instances on top of WindowsFeb 20 03:25
[H]omerBLAG is an antiestablishmentarian disto. Fundamentally, a distro for techno-anarchists.Feb 20 03:25
balzacLetting Windows get between GNU/Linux and the hardware is dumb. Supporting that says it's ok.Feb 20 03:26
balzacI say it's an abomination.Feb 20 03:26
balzacThey're also throwing a life-line to Novell by smooching with M$.Feb 20 03:28
balzacIt makes a gradient of sell-outness, keeping a clear boundary from developing.Feb 20 03:28
balzacNovell can say look, Redhat likes M$ too.Feb 20 03:29
schestowitz[H]omer: that's good.Feb 20 03:29
schestowitzIt makes a statement at the least and makes people /think/ about philosophyFeb 20 03:29
balzacI'd say Redhat has very nearly jumped the shark. They had a great success with the NYSE deal and now they've completely forgotten their roots.Feb 20 03:29
schestowitzNot just "give me teh moonlights"Feb 20 03:30
schestowitzbalzac: I will write about all thatFeb 20 03:30
schestowitzIt's lots of workFeb 20 03:30
schestowitzI already did 3 short postsFeb 20 03:30
schestowitzI'll stick it in the last oneFeb 20 03:30
balzacThis is how Jim Whitehurst gives back - by sucking up to Bill Gates.Feb 20 03:31
[H]omerRoy, as you may know, BLAG refuses to ship Mono apps, but it does currently ship Mono-core.Feb 20 03:33
[H]omerThat is about to changeFeb 20 03:33
[H]omerFirst order of the dayFeb 20 03:33
[H]omerAlong with a few other improvementsFeb 20 03:33
[H]omerI have a future vision for BLAG, which I hope to gather support forFeb 20 03:34
[H]omerThink ELive meets gNewSense, with an RPM baseFeb 20 03:35
[H]omerConsider thatFeb 20 03:35
[H]omerAll the eye candyFeb 20 03:35
[H]omerAll the FreedomFeb 20 03:35
[H]omerIt's happening right nowFeb 20 03:35
[H]omerI have the build scripts hereFeb 20 03:36
[H]omerWe're basing the next release off Fedora 11Feb 20 03:36
schestowitzEndorsement added to: 20 03:36
[H]omerI think a long term goal might be autonomy from FedoraFeb 20 03:36
[H]omerWe'll seeFeb 20 03:36
schestowitzHehe.Feb 20 03:36
schestowitz"First order of the "Feb 20 03:37
[H]omerFor now, I just want to get it moving againFeb 20 03:37
schestowitzKill the monkeyFeb 20 03:37
schestowitzFedora 10 was a successFeb 20 03:37
schestowitzFedora 9... not so muchFeb 20 03:37
schestowitzCambridge got good reviewsFeb 20 03:37
[H]omerUnlike Gobuntu, I don't think I'll exactly have much problem convincing these guys about the virtues of FreedomFeb 20 03:37
balzacThe last Redhat CEO was M$ friendly as wellFeb 20 03:38
[H]omerIf you know what I meanFeb 20 03:38
schestowitzGobuntu is vapourwareFeb 20 03:38
balzacMatthew Szulik, chief executive of Linux vendor Red Hat, said on Monday that although Linux is capable of exceeding expectations for corporate users, home users should stick with WindowsFeb 20 03:38
balzac2003Feb 20 03:38
schestowitzbalzac: they have to beFeb 20 03:38
balzacgee, thanks budFeb 20 03:38
schestowitzThe customers think BillG is a philantropistFeb 20 03:38
balzacCEOs are usually dumb-assesFeb 20 03:38
schestowitzThey want to be like himFeb 20 03:38
schestowitzNot just criminals.... SUCCESSFUL criminalsFeb 20 03:39
[H]omerOh and Roy, get this. Guess who else is involved?Feb 20 03:39
[H]omerAlexandre OlivaFeb 20 03:39
schestowitzCool!!Feb 20 03:39
balzacI've been thinking the only guy I see who has the right personality to be the most successful GNU/Linux CEO is Mark ShuttleworthFeb 20 03:39
schestowitz 20 03:39
schestowitzHe hasn't written much in a while.. not that I've seen.Feb 20 03:39
balzacBut he ought to purge mono from UbuntuFeb 20 03:40
[H]omerI think he's just there for the linux-libre connection and moral supportFeb 20 03:40
balzacoh well...Feb 20 03:40
schestowitzBrazil loves LinuxFeb 20 03:40
schestowitzMicrosoft does EDGI and stuff over there.Feb 20 03:40
[H]omerAlthough I say "just" ... that's a big jobFeb 20 03:40
schestowitzBut they know they get exposed nowFeb 20 03:40
schestowitzit has become common knowledgeFeb 20 03:40
schestowitzI got asked about Linux in Brazil today.Feb 20 03:41
balzacwhat happened to guys like Scott McNealy?Feb 20 03:41
schestowitzLost directionFeb 20 03:41
balzacwhat happened to trash talking CEOs?Feb 20 03:41
schestowitzLike a middle-age crisisFeb 20 03:41
[H]omerI may definitely need to buy some cloud time at Amazon nowFeb 20 03:41
schestowitzDoes he still do his fluffy startup thing?Feb 20 03:41
[H]omerThat a big buildFeb 20 03:41
balzacwhy do thesse guys have to be a bunch of servile weaklings?Feb 20 03:41
schestowitzMcNealy wrote an article for the Indian press 2 days agoFeb 20 03:41
schestowitzMcNealy is now a journalistFeb 20 03:42
schestowitzand OBAMAA arse kisserFeb 20 03:42
balzacwell, he used to make great fun of M$Feb 20 03:42
schestowitzBillG writes for MSBBCFeb 20 03:42
schestowitz[feels like home]Feb 20 03:42
balzacMicrosoft LookoutFeb 20 03:42
schestowitzMicrosoft Lookout.. heard it  recently.Feb 20 03:42
schestowitzLook out!Feb 20 03:42
schestowitzVirus!Feb 20 03:42
schestowitz[H]omer: I can give you my PC (user account)Feb 20 03:43
balzacif RH is going to support virtual instances on Windows, at least they ought to spin it as an act of aggression against M$Feb 20 03:43
schestowitzThe one I hardly use and is just on all the time.Feb 20 03:43
balzacBut to act as if M$ is ok is unacceptableFeb 20 03:44
schestowitzRed Hat frienemyFeb 20 03:44
*schestowitz hates the word frienemiesFeb 20 03:44
balzacickFeb 20 03:44
balzacIf you watch an action movie, and at the end, the good guy compromises with the bad guy, you'd be disappointed.Feb 20 03:45
balzacthe bad guy takes a woman hostage, the good guy says ok let's make a deal. you can get away with killing all those people and fly away in your helicopterFeb 20 03:46
balzacyou're expecting the good guy to plug him between the eyesFeb 20 03:47
schestowitzI'm not sureFeb 20 03:47
balzacinstead he'll take the woman and ravage her at his compoundFeb 20 03:47
schestowitzMicrosoft got into it also due to weakness.Feb 20 03:47
schestowitzBut watch what Microsoft did to NovellFeb 20 03:47
schestowitzWatch what it did to Linux along with Novell (Mono, Moon Lie..)Feb 20 03:47
balzacI don't like the RH patent deals either.Feb 20 03:48
balzacEven though they're deals made for indemnification of everyoneFeb 20 03:48
balzacI'd rather just see them just say that software patents aren't legitimate.Feb 20 03:49
balzacwhy can't anyone disagree anymore? why all this sickening embracing of enemies?Feb 20 03:50
balzacMicrosoft still has so much market shareFeb 20 03:50
balzaceven if their revenue is drying up, their crap software and brand-recognition is everywhereFeb 20 03:51
balzacoh well, mark shuttleworth isn't going to keep his hands clean eitherFeb 20 03:53
balzacwe've really got no real corporate representationFeb 20 03:54
schestowitzYes, I saw this..Feb 20 03:55
schestowitz 20 03:56
balzacyeah, that's passive aggressiveFeb 20 03:58
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balzacit'll erase your data - if you're fine with this, venture on brave knightFeb 20 03:59
balzacthat's the payload of the article - the rest is irrelevantFeb 20 03:59
balzacsummary: ubuntu = data lossFeb 20 04:00
balzacM$' anchor for their media codec strategy is NBCFeb 20 04:02
balzacMSNBC has content which can be made available through moonlightFeb 20 04:02
balzacI liked this thing called pytubeFeb 20 04:03
balzacfor ripping youtube content and converting to OGGFeb 20 04:03
balzacIt seems to me that people ought to just agree that proprietary codecs aren't proprietaryFeb 20 04:03
balzacThink of all the pornFeb 20 04:04
balzacwmv encoded pornFeb 20 04:04
balzacproprietary codecs are like a disease outbreak - difficult to quarantineFeb 20 04:05
balzacgnash is perpetually behind the flash playerFeb 20 04:05
balzacit's a moving targetFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzNBS ... yuckFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzLike GartnerFeb 20 04:06
balzacthe gnash player would have to be much more invasive of flash contentFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzI just caught them lyingFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzSaying only 1% of laptops sell with LInuxFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzBZZZZZZZT... wrongFeb 20 04:06
schestowitzWhat market did they check?Feb 20 04:06
schestowitzIn Germany it's over 6%Feb 20 04:06
schestowitzIn the UK it's well over 3%Feb 20 04:07
balzacthey lieFeb 20 04:07
schestowitzBut Mcirosoft pays the corrupt Gartner mafia for "roadshows"Feb 20 04:07
schestowitzIt call it thatFeb 20 04:07
schestowitz"roadshowFeb 20 04:07
balzacRoy, I have an ideaFeb 20 04:07
schestowitzThe  "NC is dead" roadshowFeb 20 04:07
schestowitzCan people be taken to prison for lying?Feb 20 04:07
schestowitzI think notFeb 20 04:07
schestowitzBut Gartner should be embargoedFeb 20 04:07
schestowitzThey also scare OEMs I heard fromFeb 20 04:08
schestowitzFUD FUD FUDFeb 20 04:08
schestowitzThere's lot of $$ in this bizFeb 20 04:08
balzacabsolutelyFeb 20 04:08
balzacthat's why we've got to fight hard for that cashFeb 20 04:08
schestowitzWhy cash?Feb 20 04:08
schestowitzCan't they be taken down without it?Feb 20 04:08
balzacnoFeb 20 04:08
schestowitzPeople deserve to know the truth.Feb 20 04:08
schestowitzGartner = corruptFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzThey knowFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzI knowFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzitFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzMicrosoft knows itFeb 20 04:09
schestowitz“Analysts sell out - that’s their business model… But they are very concerned that they never look like they are selling out, so that makes them very prickly to work with.” --MicrosofgtFeb 20 04:09
balzacbusinessmen can't be taken down by crusaders, only by other businessmenFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzStart more of a movementFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzHave people spread the wordFeb 20 04:09
schestowitzThe spin will carry on from the biz communityFeb 20 04:09
balzacRoy, I have an idea for gnashFeb 20 04:10
balzaccheck this outFeb 20 04:10
schestowitzBut it can be defeated or weakenedFeb 20 04:10
schestowitzGartner = crooks helps crooksFeb 20 04:10
balzacIE makes the web opaque and mysterious to usersFeb 20 04:10
schestowitz"We make you stronger, you pay us"Feb 20 04:10
schestowitzIt's like dirt jobs in mafiosFeb 20 04:10
schestowitz*fiasFeb 20 04:10
balzacFF makes the web transparent, crystal clearFeb 20 04:10
schestowitz"Here.. get some cash for the last dirt job... now go out and say bad things about Net PC"Feb 20 04:10
balzacRoy, you're doing exactly the right thing in attacking these brandnsFeb 20 04:10
schestowitzThe payment comes laterFeb 20 04:11
schestowitz451 Group hasn't replied yetFeb 20 04:11
balzacbut maybe you should start a web metrics thing yourself, or lend your name to such a companyFeb 20 04:11
balzacor organizationFeb 20 04:11
schestowitzI'll pressure them to say who funds themFeb 20 04:11
schestowitzIf they don't reply, I'll take it publicFeb 20 04:11
schestowitzThey were echoed by MS precisely after published anti-ODD studyFeb 20 04:11
balzacit's like the polling companies, each of whom claim to represent public opinionFeb 20 04:11
schestowitz*OSSFeb 20 04:11
schestowitzAnd they visited Redmond last yearFeb 20 04:12
schestowitzConincidence?Feb 20 04:12
schestowitzProbabl;yFeb 20 04:12
balzacZogby says this, Gallup says thatFeb 20 04:12
schestowitzI wish..Feb 20 04:12
balzacZogby reminds me of Zagat - each one is based on one man's reputationFeb 20 04:12
schestowitzZoggsFeb 20 04:13
schestowitzLast in the list..Feb 20 04:13
balzacbut how to get paid while keeping up a good reputatinoFeb 20 04:14
balzacreputationFeb 20 04:14
schestowitzI dont' careFeb 20 04:14
schestowitzGroklaw had reputation without moneyFeb 20 04:14
schestowitzIt took donationsFeb 20 04:15
balzacwell, i'm trying to have reputation and be a businessFeb 20 04:15
balzacattacking rivals is legitimateFeb 20 04:16
balzacI don't see why a person can't do bothFeb 20 04:16
schestowitzAnd how?Feb 20 04:16
balzacactually, the ad revenue from BN for exampleFeb 20 04:16
schestowitzFashionable consumption of bullsh*t is what pays one's bills most of the timeFeb 20 04:16
schestowitzThere are exceptions.Feb 20 04:17
balzacthere's a SUSE ad being served up by adsenseFeb 20 04:17
schestowitzAnd for those who help people sell bull to people.Feb 20 04:17
schestowitzbalzac: there is???/Feb 20 04:17
balzacyepFeb 20 04:17
balzacheheFeb 20 04:17
balzacit happens to bloggers all the timeFeb 20 04:18
balzacgoogle is one of those entities which mediatesFeb 20 04:18
balzacthey drop your oppositions ads right into your websiteFeb 20 04:18
balzacMaybe there's some kind of bayesian filtering you can use in your adsense accountFeb 20 04:19
balzac    *Feb 20 04:20
balzac      Loading...Feb 20 04:20
balzac    *Feb 20 04:20
balzac      SUSE Linux EnterpriseFeb 20 04:20
balzac      A Desktop to Data Center Platform Mission-critical and InteroperableFeb 20 04:20
balzac 20 04:20
schestowitzWe block it thoughFeb 20 04:20
schestowitzDoes this lead to It should not show upFeb 20 04:20
balzaclet me tryFeb 20 04:20
balzac 20 04:21
balzacit's inside an iframe - there's no blocking thatFeb 20 04:21
balzacthat's a little slice of google on your siteFeb 20 04:22
balzacneutral territoryFeb 20 04:22
schestowitzIt harms credibility thoughFeb 20 04:23
schestowitzShane did block this domainFeb 20 04:23
schestowitzIt's for him to pay the BN bill.Feb 20 04:23
balzacMy multimedia core just got hungFeb 20 04:27
balzacI rebooted alsa but this noise won't stopFeb 20 04:27
schestowitzI've just realised something annoyingFeb 20 04:28
schestowitzRed Hat's man is OSI's main manFeb 20 04:28
schestowitzWhich leaves more room for MS "schmoozing" (see BN for details) after the Red Hat deal.Feb 20 04:28
schestowitzTiemann can't so easily tell MS to sod off and out of OSIFeb 20 04:29
schestowitzNow Red Hat needs to smile at the VoleFeb 20 04:29
schestowitz 20 04:30
balzacyeahFeb 20 04:30
balzacThe OSI wants to claim ideological neutralityFeb 20 04:31
balzacopen source, not freedomFeb 20 04:31
balzacit's a compromising situationFeb 20 04:31
balzacbecause the OSI has no ideological spineFeb 20 04:32
schestowitzI'll need to pressure 451 Group tooFeb 20 04:33
schestowitzI'd go through their staff until I get a responseFeb 20 04:33
schestowitzThey need to show where the money comes from (who rather, not where)Feb 20 04:34
schestowitzThey say 'where'... not whoFeb 20 04:34
schestowitzIf they offer no transparency, then it will be imposed upon them. It's only fair.Feb 20 04:34
balzacAsay's article uses "open source" as if it's an antonym of proprietaryFeb 20 04:35
schestowitzIf not, then speccifically I'll ask them for a breakdown of money from MSFeb 20 04:35
balzacbut you can show your proprietary source codeFeb 20 04:35
schestowitzAsay is not a Freedom personFeb 20 04:35
schestowitzhe's a Mac personFeb 20 04:35
schestowitzBut some op-eds fit the theme..Feb 20 04:35
balzacpoor guyFeb 20 04:35
schestowitzSome are worth discardingFeb 20 04:36
schestowitzI dropped him from my readng listFeb 20 04:36
schestowitzHe loves moneyFeb 20 04:36
schestowitzBlankenhorn calls him "big money Matt"Feb 20 04:36
schestowitzBlankenhorn seems to have some man-crush on AsayFeb 20 04:36
balzacheheFeb 20 04:36
schestowitzHe can't stop talking about him in his blogFeb 20 04:36
schestowitzSam Dean is similar in that sense.Feb 20 04:37
schestowitzSome people are like that around Mark ShuttleworthFeb 20 04:37
schestowitzInc. AsayFeb 20 04:37
balzacheheFeb 20 04:37
balzacit's a battle of egoFeb 20 04:37
schestowitzThey think of themselves as the "Bill Gateses" of FOSSFeb 20 04:37
schestowitzSheesh. Don't tell emFeb 20 04:37
balzacyou can't forsake your own when ego equates to dollars (so long as your public reputation relects your ego to some extent)Feb 20 04:38
schestowitzCharlatans.Feb 20 04:38
schestowitzRMS is the oppositeFeb 20 04:38
schestowitzFlying coach and all...Feb 20 04:38
balzacwell, that part isn't necessaryFeb 20 04:38
schestowitzAsay has to tell the whole world that the poor man (him) forget to upgrade to first classFeb 20 04:39
schestowitzhe publically whined about flying coachFeb 20 04:39
balzacit's irrelevant, except that when you fly coach for 13 hours, you feel like crap when you land.Feb 20 04:39
schestowitzWhat a 'true' FOSS spirit. Poor thing...Feb 20 04:39
balzacI don't think renunciation sellsFeb 20 04:41
schestowitzI dunno..Feb 20 04:41
balzacthat's what keeps good ideas from spreading sometimes - the delivery has too much drama attached to it regarding renunciationFeb 20 04:41
balzacMatt Asay is the kind of guy who probably has a girlfriendFeb 20 04:43
balzacheheFeb 20 04:43
balzacreal geeks can't score!Feb 20 04:44
balzacjkFeb 20 04:44
schestowitzHe's marriedFeb 20 04:44
schestowitzHe's like 40Feb 20 04:44
balzacthe fact that he goes on with "open source" is what categorizes him in my mindFeb 20 04:46
balzacopen source is real and it is what it isFeb 20 04:46
balzacbut 60% of "open source" is published with the Free Software preamble in the license.Feb 20 04:47
balzacBSD is "open source". So is Apache and PHP.Feb 20 04:47
balzacbut they didn't know what to call it until RMS explained what "free software" meantFeb 20 04:47
schestowitzYes, I know..Feb 20 04:48
schestowitzBut these are not enemiesFeb 20 04:48
balzacof courseFeb 20 04:48
schestowitzThey are misguidedFeb 20 04:48
balzacnopeFeb 20 04:48
schestowitzThey chooses convenience over ethicsFeb 20 04:48
balzacwell, there's a place for academic licensesFeb 20 04:48
twitterRMS does not fly.  He takes the buss for privacy and environmental reasons.Feb 20 04:48
balzachow does he get to russia?Feb 20 04:48
twitterdon't know, he's not religious about most things.Feb 20 04:49
twitterhe'll even use Windows if there's nothing else around, ha ha.Feb 20 04:49
balzache used proprietary unix to build gnu until it could bootFeb 20 04:50
schestowitz[H]omer: do you want me to do an article about BLAG?Feb 20 04:50
schestowitzIn BN that is..Feb 20 04:50
schestowitzAbout shift of power and no-mono-no-no-ismFeb 20 04:50
balzacRoy, I don't know if it's fair to say everyone who is into authentic open source is choosing convenience over ethicsFeb 20 04:50
schestowitzGeneralisationFeb 20 04:51
schestowitzThis is IRCFeb 20 04:51
schestowitzNot an essayFeb 20 04:51
schestowitz:-)Feb 20 04:51
balzacbut those who call GPL-licensed code "open source" are either ignorant or choosing convenience over ethicsFeb 20 04:51
twitterI have to agree with Moglen's tongue lashing of Tim O'Reilly over "Open Source"  avoiding the words "free" "freedom" and politics was a big mistake.Feb 20 04:51
balzacmaybe he could have teased him insteadFeb 20 04:52
twitterPeople who understand software freedom will stay away from mono.Feb 20 04:52
balzacI wrote a thing called "The Great Open Source Circle Jerk Conspiracy"Feb 20 04:53
schestowitzFor FSM?Feb 20 04:53
balzacI ought toFeb 20 04:53
balzacit was on a website I later took down and now use as a staging serverFeb 20 04:53
twitterNSFW 20 04:54
balzacI'm attacking the "open source" brand identity in defense of and retribution for years of sustained attacks on the "free software" brand identityFeb 20 04:54
balzacthe "open source" brand identity claims so much GPL-licensed code, it's not even funny.Feb 20 04:55
schestowitzYes, I say that tooFeb 20 04:55
schestowitzThey relabel other people's movementFeb 20 04:55
balzacand they try to sell the idea to us by saying they're the reason free software took offFeb 20 04:55
balzacall it needed was a little re-brandingFeb 20 04:56
twitterpeople like Bruce Perens seem to understand what happened.Feb 20 04:56
balzacEric Raymond is the worst about itFeb 20 04:56
balzactwitter: at least he came around in the endFeb 20 04:56
balzacand Eric Raymond got so pissed he wrote a threatening emailFeb 20 04:57
balzacto PerensFeb 20 04:57
twitter"Freedom" is a scary thing to talk about, but it was not right of the Open Software people to belittle.Feb 20 04:58
balzacit was an organized coup against RMSFeb 20 04:58
balzacto marginalize himFeb 20 04:59
twitterM$ stoked the conflict, too - exploiting conflicts of the enemy, that's part of their TE guidelines.Feb 20 04:59
balzache had gathered a lot of code contributors to GNUFeb 20 04:59
twittergot links to Eric Raymond's threat?Feb 20 04:59
schestowitztwitter: exactlyFeb 20 04:59
schestowitzThey promote a new animal nowFeb 20 05:00
schestowitzThey fund OSBCFeb 20 05:00
schestowitzThey have this thing called enterprise open sourceFeb 20 05:00
schestowitzof commercial open sourceFeb 20 05:00
schestowitzto suggest gnu et al are 'hobbyists'Feb 20 05:00
twitter"radicals" "zealots" and other bad names.Feb 20 05:00
schestowitzDid ESR threaten with guns? :-|Feb 20 05:00
schestowitzSounds like him... :-)Feb 20 05:00
balzacnot specifically with gunsFeb 20 05:01
balzacbut he gave a warning which suggested he would take action against PerensFeb 20 05:01
balzactwitter: it was such a long time agoFeb 20 05:01
balzacit's available from searchingFeb 20 05:02
balzacPerens published itFeb 20 05:02
balzacESR also coopted the "hackers dictionary" and started adding silly stuff to itFeb 20 05:02
balzache's the svengaliFeb 20 05:03
balzacCATB was written with intent to deceive, imhoFeb 20 05:03
balzacand O'Reilly published it far and wideFeb 20 05:04
balzacas if it were the GNU ManifestoFeb 20 05:04
balzacWhen I first found out about "Linux", I was all about Cathedral and the Bazaar, Open Source, OSI, LinuxFeb 20 05:04
schestowitzbalzac: they already blocked himFeb 20 05:05
schestowitzES blogs in OSIFeb 20 05:05
schestowitzSo he's still aroundFeb 20 05:05
balzacthe whole language of the re-branding campaign completely obscured a pre-existing campaignFeb 20 05:05
schestowitzI signed a petition i support of PerensFeb 20 05:05
schestowitzI also got some BN readers to sign itFeb 20 05:05
schestowitzBut he was marginalisedFeb 20 05:05
twitterHere's a relatively recent rant from ESR, " The culture of the [Red Hat] project's core group has become steadily more unhealthy, more inward-looking, more insistent on narrow "free software" ideological purity, and more disconnected from the technical and evangelical challenges that must be met to make Linux a world-changing success that liberates a majority of computer users."Feb 20 05:05
twitter 20 05:05
schestowitzPerens openly accuses Microsoft of "committing crimes" (and "gett[ing] away with" them)Feb 20 05:06
twitterKind of funny he would say that while Debian is rocking but has always aimed towards free software purity.Feb 20 05:06
balzacPerens got ripped off too, ultimatelyFeb 20 05:06
balzacbut he was slower to understand and reactFeb 20 05:06
balzac 20 05:07
balzacmaybe I should make a FF plugin which inserts my own opinions into that pageFeb 20 05:08
balzacEvery time Linux is mentioned, it could replace with "GNU/Linux"Feb 20 05:09
balzacand then you could publish your credibility scores so that after people's names, their score is displayedFeb 20 05:10
*dsmith_ ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 20 05:10
balzacread IT blogs with that plugin and you get a bietter pictureFeb 20 05:10
twitterLooking at the history page ... collating it to Halloween document 1 ...Feb 20 05:10
schestowitzwb, dsmith_ Feb 20 05:11
*schestowitz adds links to BNFeb 20 05:11
balzac 20 05:11
balzacGoodbye, "free software"; hello, "open source"Feb 20 05:11
dsmith_thxFeb 20 05:11
schestowitzLoads and loads of good news for Linux todayFeb 20 05:11
balzacRaymond issued the firstFeb 20 05:11
balzacpublic call to the community to begin using the new term.Feb 20 05:11
balzacthe OSI history page reads like a confessionFeb 20 05:12
balzacthat was a blatant broad-side against the established free software brand and campaignFeb 20 05:12
balzacthe fact that it goes back that far is what makes me wonder if the Linux kernel project its self was specifically intended to derail GNU's completionFeb 20 05:13
balzacnot necessarily by Linus, but perhaps by others who shifted attention away from the native GNU kernel projectFeb 20 05:13
balzacthen all it took was the corporate hardware compatibility backing to make the Linux kernel into the center of gravityFeb 20 05:14
*dsmith_ has quit (Remote closed the connection)Feb 20 05:14
twitterESR on Halloween 1, " Since the author quoted my analyses of open-source community dynamics (The Cathedral and the Bazaar and Homesteading the Noosphere) extensively, it seems fair that I should  respond on behalf of the community."Feb 20 05:14

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