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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: March 29th, 2009 - Part 3


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Balrog_sure they use dynamic linkingMar 29 22:12
MinceRand with a proper package manager you can do the sameMar 29 22:13
MinceRyet you won't have to load the same library into memory multiple timesMar 29 22:13
Balrog_some apps actually do install frameworks in /Library/FrameworksMar 29 22:13
MinceRand you can get bugfixes to librariesMar 29 22:13
Balrog_that's true with libraries that aren't app specificMar 29 22:13
MinceRwell, that kind of blows up the illusion of "self contained apps" thenMar 29 22:13
Balrog_they do thatMar 29 22:13
Balrog_OS X provides most needed librariesMar 29 22:13
MinceRperhaps someday apple fanboys will decide whether they like "self-contained apps" which osx apparently doesn't do or they like what everybody else doesMar 29 22:14
Balrog_explain how it 'doesn't do'...Mar 29 22:14
MinceRyou've just explained it aboveMar 29 22:14
MinceR002154 < Balrog_> some apps actually do install frameworks in /Library/FrameworksMar 29 22:14
Balrog_that's a fewMar 29 22:14
Balrog_we don't necessarily consider them well behavedMar 29 22:14
MinceRoh, i seeMar 29 22:15
MinceRso apple fanboys think they're smarter than appleMar 29 22:15
MinceRthat's niceMar 29 22:15
Balrog_it's easy enough to put a library in one app and have another app that is from the same program package call it relativelyMar 29 22:15
schestowitzSome Mac installers are hugeMar 29 22:15
schestowitzCompared even to WindowsMar 29 22:15
Balrog_schestowitz: remember the fat binariesMar 29 22:16
MinceRby not making apps really self-contained they lose the alleged benefits of them being self-containedMar 29 22:16
MinceRbut by making them partially self-contained they manage to retain bloatMar 29 22:16
Balrog_fat binaries means double the codeMar 29 22:16
MinceRtrust a bunch of marketers to design an OS well.Mar 29 22:16
MinceR;)Mar 29 22:16
Balrog_os x isn't designed by marketers, or it would be like vista :PMar 29 22:17
schestowitzNVIDIA to buy significant stake in VIA? < >Mar 29 22:17
MinceRwell, is there anyone who works for apple but isn't a marketerMar 29 22:17
MinceR?Mar 29 22:17
Balrog_sure there areMar 29 22:17
MinceRoh, wait, they're into patent FUD now, that means they must have an army of lawyers tooMar 29 22:17
Balrog_someone pasted recent apple job postings by them recently; I should have bookmarked it :/Mar 29 22:18
MinceRi'm sure they can make up pretty fancy titles for marketersMar 29 22:18
Balrog_heh, is anyone not dealing with patents? I mean it's like sue or get suedMar 29 22:18
Balrog_they recently got sued a couple of times lately....Mar 29 22:18
Balrog_s/lately/Mar 29 22:18
MinceRand the proper response to that is to spread FUD about competitorsMar 29 22:19
MinceRi seeMar 29 22:19
Balrog_well, I didn't hear direct fudMar 29 22:19
Balrog_like MS doesMar 29 22:19
MinceRbetter watch the news thenMar 29 22:19
MinceRit was pretty difficult to missMar 29 22:19
Balrog_yes, stuff that could be interpreted as indirect fudMar 29 22:19
MinceRwell, good night anyway, i've got to get some restMar 29 22:19
Balrog_"we'll defend our IP"Mar 29 22:19
schestowitzFUDMar 29 22:19
Balrog_but so did Pam say thatMar 29 22:19
oiaohmschestowitz: NVIDIA is hunting x86 licence.Mar 29 22:19
Balrog_Palm *Mar 29 22:20
schestowitzWhat PamMar 29 22:20
schestowitzOhMar 29 22:20
schestowitzPJ... methoughtMar 29 22:20
Balrog_hehMar 29 22:20
MinceRwow, Palm dared to reply after being threatenedMar 29 22:20
Balrog_sorry :/Mar 29 22:20
schestowitzShe thinks MS sues Apple by proxyMar 29 22:20
schestowitzThe iphone suiotsMar 29 22:20
MinceRsuch nerve they have!Mar 29 22:20
schestowitzsuitsMar 29 22:20
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, Intel tooMar 29 22:20
schestowitzWill write about it tomorrowMar 29 22:20
schestowitzThey countersuedMar 29 22:20
Balrog_Apple has patents and Palm has patents .... I'm sure palm would be able to countersue apple into a cross-licensing agreement, if apple actually was to sueMar 29 22:21
Balrog_hopefully the lawyers are smarter than that ........Mar 29 22:21
schestowitzWhat bolloxMar 29 22:21
Balrog_*sigh*Mar 29 22:21
schestowitzThey don't need thatMar 29 22:21
schestowitzThey carry on playing with garbageMar 29 22:21
Balrog_yeah, they don't need it, and they better not do itMar 29 22:21
schestowitzI'll paste here a mail I got this afternoonMar 29 22:21
schestowitzFrom someone who knows it's a massive bubbleMar 29 22:21
Balrog_you mean the patents?Mar 29 22:22
Balrog_or........?Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"Industry is decoration in the patent struggle. It is about institutional interests, not business interests. I don't fear Microsoft or any other player, including a converted RedHat. I do fear the burst of the patent bubble and the organised irresponsibility of patent offices."Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"So our policy was not attack market players but the system. The description as an industry fight with the large and powerful corporations seeking patents is a self-fulfilling myth. A media pattern. I have to crack the belief system inside industry, not to affirm it."Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"In this case the point to make is the contradiction with the pretended patent policy. All this can well fire back and undermine the very strong public patent position of RedHat."Mar 29 22:22
Balrog_that's about the RedHat patent on a standard?Mar 29 22:22
schestowitzAnother person:Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"Roy, It's a good article and as usual I wonder how you find the time to do all the research."Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"It is true that attacking Red Hat looks risky (and I've received some very angry mail about my role in that) but to be honest we *do* need their help and over the last years it's been totally absent though we've been very nice to them (in the activism area)."Mar 29 22:22
schestowitz"I honestly think Rob Tiller & co. are cynically using the patent system for their firm's own benefit, partly for defensive reasons, but mainly because it's just profitable to be able to kick out competitors like Debian, and that this will start to change when people start to understand, and complain in large numbers."Mar 29 22:22
schestowitzRed Hat is no example Balrog Mar 29 22:23
schestowitzRed Hat could use some toppling for this tooMar 29 22:23
schestowitzWhich is why I won't try Fedora next (I already use it in some places)Mar 29 22:23
schestowitzDebian I can trustMar 29 22:23
schestowitzEven BLAG (pint [H]omer )Mar 29 22:23
schestowitz*ping I meantMar 29 22:23
Balrog_Fedora doesn't have redhat proprietary code...??Mar 29 22:24
Balrog_I didn't think it had such code....Mar 29 22:24
schestowitz "blade computers running the Unix-based Linux operating system."Mar 29 22:26
schestowitzUNIX-based Linux...Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz"blade computers.."Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_that's backwardsMar 29 22:26
schestowitzNo capitalisationMar 29 22:26
Balrog_well noMar 29 22:26
schestowitzI thought Blades were servers..Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz:-)Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_it's okMar 29 22:26
schestowitzRookie writers...Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_no, we have Blade workstationsMar 29 22:26
Balrog_Sun Blade 150Mar 29 22:26
schestowitzYes...Mar 29 22:26
Balrog_they look like desktops :)Mar 29 22:26
schestowitzBut what caught my eye was the former :-)Mar 29 22:26
schestowitz Unix-based Linux operating systemMar 29 22:26
schestowitzLinux is not an operating systemMar 29 22:27
schestowitzIt's a platformMar 29 22:27
Balrog_no, GNU/Linux is the OSMar 29 22:27
schestowitzAnd it's not "Linux-based"Mar 29 22:27
Balrog_Linux is a kernelMar 29 22:27
schestowitzUNIX-based I mentsMar 29 22:27
schestowitzIt's UNIX-alikeMar 29 22:27
Balrog_ahh yeahMar 29 22:27
Balrog_it's based on the POSIX standard....Mar 29 22:27
schestowitzThe article looks like a pro magazineMar 29 22:27
schestowitzBut the content.. I dunno..Mar 29 22:27
schestowitzJust found it a sec ago.Mar 29 22:27
oiaohmUnix is a standard.Mar 29 22:28
oiaohmNothing is Unix based.Mar 29 22:28
oiaohmLinux has been a certified Unix a few times in the past.Mar 29 22:28
Balrog_really? which ones?Mar 29 22:28
oiaohmThe distributions are dead.Mar 29 22:29
Balrog_:/Mar 29 22:29
oiaohmDo you know what the costs are to maintain Unix certification.Mar 29 22:29
schestowitzThe shills at ZDNET have just published "Linux... Is it ready for the "average" user? "Mar 29 22:30
Balrog_yeah I know :(Mar 29 22:30
schestowitzAnother one of those 'articles' that use question marks to say "No"Mar 29 22:30
schestowitzMore FUDMar 29 22:30
schestowitz"Read for the desktop" is FUFDMar 29 22:30
schestowitzCreating uncertaintyMar 29 22:30
oiaohmSolaris that most people think as a Unix  currently is not certified either.Mar 29 22:30
schestowitzLousy ZDNETMar 29 22:30
schestowitzI hope it drops dead and dies as a publication altogether soonMar 29 22:30
oiaohmEvery kernel change is a massive audit.Mar 29 22:30
Balrog_just /why/?Mar 29 22:31
schestowitzIt turned from journalist to blogs when Ziffy went bankruptMar 29 22:31
Balrog_linux is ready for most users; it still needs a bit more polish thoughMar 29 22:31
schestowitzRed Hat lifted by increased free use of Linux < >Mar 29 22:31
schestowitzSure seems ready fore manyMar 29 22:31
Balrog_the command line is problematic for manyMar 29 22:31
schestowitzBut when people come with misconception that it's "not ready", then they get latched onto itMar 29 22:32
oiaohmFor person like me its not ready.Mar 29 22:32
schestowitzWhen peopel think Mac is easy, they don't give upMar 29 22:32
Balrog_and the GNOME vs. KDE vs. XFCE isn't goodMar 29 22:32
schestowitzAs that would make them "Stupid"Mar 29 22:32
oiaohmBut the tech for it to be ready should be in place by end of year.Mar 29 22:32
schestowitzBalrog: do you need the CLI? Which distro?Mar 29 22:32
schestowitzBalrog: choice -- not good?Mar 29 22:32
Balrog_no, I'm complaining that end users get intimidated by CLIMar 29 22:32
oiaohmMostly a fixed up graphic stack so kernel panic caused by Nvidia does not leave users hanging.Mar 29 22:32
Balrog_choice leads to confusionMar 29 22:33
Balrog_unfortunatelyMar 29 22:33
schestowitzMaybe we can kill 2/3 of the s/w to make it easy for you. ;-)Mar 29 22:33
oiaohmSo user can blame Nvidia for the problems they cause.Mar 29 22:33
schestowitzEase of use through destructionMar 29 22:33
schestowitzoiaohm: you mean like Windows not bootingMar 29 22:33
schestowitzOr bad Apple patches that leave users stranded in CLI?Mar 29 22:33
schestowitzThat happens.Mar 29 22:33
schestowitzThey just phone up the companiesMar 29 22:33
schestowitzNot post in Web forumsMar 29 22:34
oiaohmWindows not booting has many causes.Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_that happened a couple of times :/Mar 29 22:34
schestowitzYesMar 29 22:34
oiaohmNTFS fucking up is not talked about.Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_at least archive+install makes for easy recovery on a macMar 29 22:34
schestowitzA couple of times I can recallMar 29 22:34
schestowitzI remember 2 times.Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_you had it happen?Mar 29 22:34
schestowitzoiaohm: it's just 'computers'. They 'break'Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_(to your systems)Mar 29 22:34
schestowitzMaybe NTFS, maybe virus..Mar 29 22:34
oiaohmNTFS drivers need to be taken out shot and rebuild.Mar 29 22:34
schestowitzThe rule is that you need to reinstall every 6 months...Mar 29 22:34
Balrog_that's windows right?Mar 29 22:35
oiaohmExactyMar 29 22:35
schestowitzBalrog: no, not mine. Did you ask oiaohm ?Mar 29 22:35
Balrog_I thought you were talking about mac dumping people to cliMar 29 22:35
schestowitzYesMar 29 22:35
schestowitzNot mineMar 29 22:35
Balrog_I've never seen /that/ but I've seen other things:Mar 29 22:35
schestowitzI hardly used MacsMar 29 22:35
oiaohmpeople talk about Linux problems people are 100 percent use to windows problems.Mar 29 22:35
schestowitzMac OS 9Mar 29 22:35
oiaohmSo much so they don't even bother investaging.Mar 29 22:35
schestowitzI used OS X a few times (other people's computers)Mar 29 22:36
Balrog_(a) APE messing stuff up, but APE is considered dangerous to begin withMar 29 22:36
schestowitz+1Mar 29 22:36
Balrog_(b) the GPU drivers for the internal video in the original G3 systems were bad, and it would cause video to go out randomly. Solution: get a newer video cardMar 29 22:36
Balrog_and yes, there is archive and install, something neither linux nor windows do well yetMar 29 22:37
Balrog_(should be easy for linux....diff installed apps vs. preinstalled apps, keep home dir, after install, put back the not-installed apps)Mar 29 22:37
Balrog_giving the user a list if necessaryMar 29 22:38
Balrog_I haven't seen a distro that has such a feature :(Mar 29 22:38
oiaohmThere are back system that work well.Mar 29 22:38
oiaohmOn LinuxMar 29 22:38
oiaohmabusing the package manager.Mar 29 22:38
Balrog_you mean backup?Mar 29 22:38
oiaohmOnly to backup files not in package manager.Mar 29 22:38
Balrog_no, I'm talking about a reinstalling the system without losing apps/dataMar 29 22:39
Balrog_about reinstalling *Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_you know, like reinstalling windows ;)Mar 29 22:39
oiaohmSo am IMar 29 22:39
oiaohmBackup script then reinstall.Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_well, you don't want to put back the bad data...Mar 29 22:39
Balrog_that's one benefit of self contained apps, and the structure that OS X providesMar 29 22:40
oiaohmTo a point.Mar 29 22:40
oiaohmLinux filesystem stardards if applications follow them finding whos file is who is simple.Mar 29 22:40
Balrog_/System/Library for system stuff, /Library for system-wide user-modifiable stuff, ~/Library for user-specific stuffMar 29 22:40
Balrog_/Applications for programsMar 29 22:41
oiaohmDo you understand why Unix/Linux is layed out the way it is.Mar 29 22:41
Balrog_yes, I sure doMar 29 22:41
oiaohmSeek time.Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_it certainly makes sense to have a /usr/bin, /usr/sbin, etcMar 29 22:42
Balrog_Solaris does it right by putting apps in /optMar 29 22:42
Balrog_(non-system apps)Mar 29 22:42
oiaohmSo does linux for non distribution applciations.Mar 29 22:42
oiaohmIf they follow spec.Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_yeah, if they follow spec.Mar 29 22:42
Balrog_too many don't.Mar 29 22:42
oiaohmLinux problem is non spec following.Mar 29 22:43
oiaohmSame thing can happen on apple.Mar 29 22:43
oiaohmThere are about 10 application on apple I know that don't follow spec.Mar 29 22:43
Balrog_and it does happen. Such apps tend to suck thoughMar 29 22:43
Balrog_like Stuffit which uses an installer that's not necessary (and people hate it)Mar 29 22:43
Balrog_Adobe apps put various stuff in /LibraryMar 29 22:44
Balrog_true, they come with uninstallers, but that's still not good behavior IMOMar 29 22:44
schestowitzFirefox reached 863 million downloads on 2009-03-29 22:49 UTCMar 29 22:44
Balrog_if they do put stuff in /Library, it should stay in /Library/Application Support/Adobe and nowhere elseMar 29 22:44
oiaohmSomething anti-virus guys are working on well help a lot.Mar 29 22:44
Balrog_explain how that's related....?Mar 29 22:45
oiaohmFixing up the linux filesystem monitoring system.Mar 29 22:45
Balrog_ahh thatMar 29 22:45
oiaohmfanotifyMar 29 22:45
Balrog_os x has a kernel level filesystem monitoring apiMar 29 22:45
oiaohmSo does Linux 2 of them.Mar 29 22:45
oiaohmAnd they both sux.Mar 29 22:45
Balrog_yeah :/Mar 29 22:45
oiaohminotify and dnotifyMar 29 22:46
oiaohmBoth only do half the job if that you need and don't work well with eachother.Mar 29 22:46
schestowitzAMD Releases R700 Instruction Set Architecture < >Mar 29 22:46
oiaohmThis is why I get annoyed with people like Linux HaterMar 29 22:47
oiaohmThere are plenty of valid points to pick on Linux for.Mar 29 22:47
oiaohmJust they take true knowledge of it to find.Mar 29 22:47
Balrog_ys.Mar 29 22:49
Balrog_yes *Mar 29 22:49
Balrog_ for the one in os xMar 29 22:49
schestowitzIf anyone knows what's up with ZDNet, please holler... 29 22:51
Balrog_what about Georage Ou and Mary Jo Foley? They're still at ZDNet?Mar 29 22:52
Balrog_George *Mar 29 22:52
schestowitzYesMar 29 22:55
schestowitzMary has her own blogMar 29 22:55
schestowitzLooks almost like a placeholderMar 29 22:56
schestowitzI think the same goes for the Ou shillMar 29 22:56
schestowitzOne of the Microsoft gang in ZD... others being Bott, that Microsoft employee Carol (former), and other obvious onesMar 29 22:56
schestowitzThey get paid to provokeMar 29 22:56
Balrog_certainlyMar 29 22:56
schestowitzPaid by # of comments and such.Mar 29 22:56
Balrog_hehMar 29 22:56
schestowitzSo stuff like "Linux thrown to the curb" or whatever gets postedMar 29 22:57
Balrog_I wonder why so many of the comments are pro-windows biased....Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 22:57
schestowitzBlankenhorm almost begged people to participateMar 29 22:57
schestowitzTheir job depends on itMar 29 22:57
schestowitzBut that's not reportingMar 29 22:57
schestowitzBalrog: why?Mar 29 22:57
schestowitzBecause they select people like thatMar 29 22:57
Balrog_does work?Mar 29 22:57
Balrog_I get a database errorMar 29 22:57
schestowitzThey won't select strongly pro-Linux people to have blogsMar 29 22:57
schestowitzRoughly Eran posted many good things recentlyMar 29 22:58
schestowitzmaybe overloadedMar 29 22:58
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 22:58
schestowitzTimes out for me, I thinkMar 29 22:58
Balrog_he is right in many ways .... though I can see Apple at 25-33% of the market and Linux taking the rest, if MS were to fail totallyMar 29 22:58
schestowitzHe sometimes writes about LinuxMar 29 22:58
Balrog_then Apple would have to work together :)Mar 29 22:59
schestowitzUsually spot-onMar 29 22:59
schestowitzTook the piss on Mono tooMar 29 22:59
Balrog_that's about what he says, if you read a little "between the lines"Mar 29 22:59
schestowitzBN has more visitors than RD MagazineMar 29 22:59
schestowitzBut he didn't post much in 2009Mar 29 22:59
Balrog_that's because BN has more recent postsMar 29 22:59
Balrog_more frequent *Mar 29 23:00
schestowitzYesMar 29 23:00
schestowitzBut archives get the most trafficMar 29 23:00
schestowitzMaybe 80%Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_archives are very interestingMar 29 23:00
schestowitz"Failed to Connect"Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_once you start reading you don't want to stop :)Mar 29 23:00
schestowitzWankered by traffic I reckon.Mar 29 23:00
Balrog_yeah, I wonder what's upMar 29 23:00
Balrog_probably the PHP database is downMar 29 23:00
schestowitzOur return rate is highMar 29 23:00
schestowitzAbout 5 pages per visitorMar 29 23:00
schestowitzOn averageMar 29 23:00
schestowitzVisit, not visitorMar 29 23:00
Balrog_his is probably too, but less frequent postsMar 29 23:01
schestowitzSome sites are at about 1 per visitorMar 29 23:01
Balrog_so if I have an RSS feed, I won't go back unless there's new contentMar 29 23:01
schestowitzI like to think that my stuff won't be read for one day and be shelvedMar 29 23:01
schestowitzSo I inter-link the stories and never ever repeat stories if I can avoid itMar 29 23:01
Balrog_heh, doesn't work that way :)Mar 29 23:02
Balrog_but inter linking is very goodMar 29 23:02
schestowitzSometimes it doesMar 29 23:02
Balrog_just use outside sources!Mar 29 23:02
schestowitzYou give the short story and a linkMar 29 23:02
schestowitzThe outside stories can be foundMar 29 23:02
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 23:02
schestowitzJust need to crawl past archivesMar 29 23:02
schestowitzIt's convenientMar 29 23:02
schestowitz[cref POST-ID]Mar 29 23:02
schestowitzExternal would take time to fetchMar 29 23:02
schestowitzAlso to testMar 29 23:03
Balrog_yeah, but external gives extra credibilityMar 29 23:03
schestowitzI write quickly, so the though of researching whilst writing is dreadfulMar 29 23:03
schestowitzBalrog: yes, I know.Mar 29 23:03
schestowitzPlurality in linksMar 29 23:03
schestowitzI concede itMar 29 23:03
Balrog_very important when you have 1000's of detractors ready to attack.Mar 29 23:03
schestowitzAlso..Mar 29 23:03
schestowitzIf I have links to BackWeb-MS lawsuitMar 29 23:04
schestowitzThen I can have one post with 20 ext-linksMar 29 23:04
schestowitzThen, I can link to this postMar 29 23:04
schestowitzWhich is like an anchorMar 29 23:04
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 23:04
schestowitzIt also opens up with an intro-summaryMar 29 23:04
schestowitzRather than choose an arbitrary articleMar 29 23:04
schestowitzLike TomTomMar 29 23:04
schestowitzI wrote a lonk summaryMar 29 23:04
schestowitzWith about 40 external linksMar 29 23:04
Balrog_I like a wikipedia-style system with endnotes tooMar 29 23:04
schestowitzNow I just link to it as main anchor to TomTom suitMar 29 23:04
Balrog_(ref style)Mar 29 23:04
schestowitzThere's one for OIN joining tooMar 29 23:05
Balrog_more work :/ ... but helpsMar 29 23:05
schestowitzI gobble em upMar 29 23:05
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 23:05
schestowitzWikipedia is polishedMar 29 23:05
schestowitzMore time, more peopleMar 29 23:05
Balrog_certainlyMar 29 23:05
Balrog_also, is there any repository of Comes vs MS data that will be up for a while that's not on your site?Mar 29 23:06
Balrog_(because your site tends to be politically charged, and pointing pro-MS people at it isn't always a good first impression)Mar 29 23:07
Balrog_well, politically meaning anti-MSMar 29 23:07
schestowitzThere are other mirrorsMar 29 23:07
schestowitzPeople can judge the evidenceMar 29 23:08
schestowitzPDFs.Mar 29 23:08
Balrog_yes, I know....Mar 29 23:08
schestowitzNothing 'charged' there.. nor fakedMar 29 23:08
schestowitzSame with the posts. "Charged" = honest/POVMar 29 23:08
Balrog_I understand. Not everyone feels that wayMar 29 23:08
schestowitzConfrmist=non-chargedMar 29 23:08
Balrog_Like I had someone who pushed ASP.NET stronglyMar 29 23:08
schestowitzThere's an interesting hypothesis on papers and politicsMar 29 23:08
Balrog_(and MS products)Mar 29 23:08
schestowitzThe big papers set the trnedsMar 29 23:08
schestowitzYou can't deviate from themMar 29 23:09
Balrog_and didn't want to hear of Conficker or problemsMar 29 23:09
Balrog_with ASP.NET and MS productsMar 29 23:09
schestowitzmeaning that if NYT says there are WoMD, then local papers must agreeMar 29 23:09
schestowitzNot agreeing or refuting would get the writers in trouble.Mar 29 23:09
schestowitzIt's a consent systemMar 29 23:09
Balrog_hehMar 29 23:09
Balrog_yeahMar 29 23:09
schestowitzThat is what make the PR(opaganda) powerhouse so powerful and effectiveMar 29 23:10
schestowitzPeople are taught to admire certain publications that never admit a mistakeMar 29 23:10
Balrog_unfortunately, everyone does PRMar 29 23:10
schestowitzMaybe pubs out there deserve apology/correction for Massive MistakesMar 29 23:10
schestowitzSame in Vietnam war, AFAIKMar 29 23:10
Balrog_(every middle to large sized company)Mar 29 23:10
Balrog_if you don't do it, you're left out in the coldMar 29 23:11
schestowitzI recently learned that Orwell accused the BBC of spreading propaganda (he worked there)Mar 29 23:11
schestowitzBalrog: same with lobbyingMar 29 23:11
schestowitzIt doesn't make it rightMar 29 23:11
schestowitzSame with accounting fraudMar 29 23:11
Balrog_sure doesn't.Mar 29 23:11
schestowitzMicrosoft judtifies its crimes by saying others do it tooMar 29 23:11
schestowitzBalrog: Due doesMar 29 23:11
Balrog_PR isn't as bad as lobbying or account fraud though; there /can/ be good PRMar 29 23:11
schestowitzSure doesMar 29 23:11
schestowitzIRS alsoMar 29 23:11
Balrog_thourh it's rareMar 29 23:11
Balrog_though *Mar 29 23:11
schestowitzPR is about deceptionMar 29 23:12
schestowitzThere can be gentle PRMar 29 23:12
schestowitzIt's still just a new name for propaganda (Bernays)Mar 29 23:12
Balrog_PR can be about correcting wrongs that some idiot causedMar 29 23:12
schestowitzIt is about deceiving the massesMar 29 23:12
schestowitzLaerning women to smoke and sychMar 29 23:12
schestowitz*SuchMar 29 23:12
schestowitznothing ethical about itMar 29 23:12
schestowitzUnless profit and shopping culture is seen as benignMar 29 23:12
Balrog_or causing the masses to realize that the leadership is not bad anymoreMar 29 23:12
Balrog_rare thoughMar 29 23:13
schestowitzAssming the world is an infinite garbage dumopMar 29 23:13
schestowitzWhich "idiots"?Mar 29 23:13
schestowitzDissent?Mar 29 23:13
schestowitzDissent is democratising force.Mar 29 23:13
schestowitzPR is buying influenceMar 29 23:13
schestowitzRule of the gold... 'golden' ruleMar 29 23:13
Balrog_but I've seen a case where an idiot messed stuff up with a certain [small] organization and a form of small-scale PR was necessaryMar 29 23:13
Balrog_(idiot == someone who doesn't care for anyone other than himself, here)Mar 29 23:14
schestowitzConcrete example?Mar 29 23:14
schestowitzName?Mar 29 23:14
Balrog_this is on a very small scaleMar 29 23:14
Balrog_<<personally involvedMar 29 23:14
schestowitzNovell can justify its own PR tooMar 29 23:14
schestowitzIt hired a firm in YoRkshirre to game the WebMar 29 23:14
schestowitzNothing ethicalMar 29 23:14
schestowitzGreyhats at bestMar 29 23:14
Balrog_Novell is trying to fool people into thinking their tech is goodMar 29 23:14
schestowitzJustified? I think notMar 29 23:14
Balrog_certainly notMar 29 23:14
schestowitzNovell's tech is rubbishMar 29 23:15
schestowitzsecond-class at everythingMar 29 23:15
schestowitzMicrosoft turns to politics again: http://undertheinfluence.nationaljou... 29 23:15
Balrog_when is it? when a company really changes their ways, you need to help people realize that's the caseMar 29 23:15
oiaohmI don't think MS is going to be happy.Mar 29 23:15
oiaohmVideo card markers are slowly taking over media content.Mar 29 23:15
Balrog_makers *Mar 29 23:15
oiaohmSo ending codec's as a way to control market.Mar 29 23:16
schestowitzDRM on board?Mar 29 23:16
oiaohmvideo stream decoding on board.Mar 29 23:16
Balrog_yes, I know :/Mar 29 23:16
schestowitz"Content" is a terrible word for artsMar 29 23:16
oiaohmYep MS wants there codecs to run well.Mar 29 23:16
Balrog_there was recently talk about vpdau on #mplayerMar 29 23:17
oiaohmWants drm to work.Mar 29 23:17
oiaohmIt will have to go into video card.  So video card markers have to be licence to use codec.Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_vpdau is probably open-source though.Mar 29 23:17
oiaohmReally stuffs MS ideas up badly.Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_oiaohm: you can't use a system like CUDAMar 29 23:17
Balrog_where a software decoder runs on the GPU?Mar 29 23:17
Balrog_(or OpenCL)Mar 29 23:18
oiaohmCUDA does not have audio syncing.Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_CUDA is just computations on GPUMar 29 23:18
Balrog_you write the decoderMar 29 23:18
Balrog_the GPU runs itMar 29 23:18
oiaohmVideo card markers will be wanting to provide the decoders as part of there drivers.Mar 29 23:18
Balrog_probably ......Mar 29 23:19
oiaohmSo its optmised correctly for there cards.Mar 29 23:19
Balrog_though I can see ffmpeg / mplayer / gstreamer support such accelerationMar 29 23:19
oiaohmYep MS ends up again having to licence to device makers not end users.Mar 29 23:19
oiaohmProblem with device makers they are buying millions of licences at once.Mar 29 23:19
oiaohmAnd expect them darn cheep.Mar 29 23:19
Balrog_MS license to device makers?Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_you mean WMA/WMV codecs?Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_but isn't MPEG/h.264 more popular nowadays?Mar 29 23:20
oiaohmVC-1Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_why not MPEG4/H.264?Mar 29 23:20
oiaohmThe one MS got used on blueray.Mar 29 23:20
Balrog_I know it still has patents, but it tends to be betterMar 29 23:21
Balrog_I heard that blueray uses h.264 by defaultMar 29 23:21
Balrog_(mpeg4 **)Mar 29 23:21
oiaohmThere are two formats can can be used on blueray.Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_AVC *Mar 29 23:21
oiaohmh264 and VC-1Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_or MPGE-2Mar 29 23:21
Balrog_MPEG *Mar 29 23:21
oiaohmAlso h264 is also being included in video card drivers.Mar 29 23:23
oiaohmHow to solve the patent problem.Mar 29 23:23
oiaohmfor end users.Mar 29 23:23
oiaohmHave hardware makers deal with them.Mar 29 23:23
Balrog_h264 is a good codec, but for the patentsMar 29 23:24
oiaohmAlso screws patent holders quite well.   Since hardware markers can take the hard line of either provide the patents cheep or we support something else.Mar 29 23:24
oiaohmWhen you are talking about millions of end users you are not really in a good location to disagree.Mar 29 23:25
schestowitzSad news for Ubuntu on SunBlade 100's with Condor Users < >Mar 29 23:25
Balrog_according to , h.264 is superiorMar 29 23:25
Balrog_also there are free implementations (maybe not patent free, but free)Mar 29 23:25
oiaohmThere are free implementations of VC-1.Mar 29 23:26
Balrog_re-compile condor?Mar 29 23:26
oiaohmBoth locked by patents.Mar 29 23:26
Balrog_yeah, but are they as good as the reference implementation?Mar 29 23:26
oiaohmYes.Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_hmm ok.Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_still, more people use h.264Mar 29 23:27
oiaohmBecause one of the open source ones is the reference implementation.Mar 29 23:27
oiaohmThat MS had to give up to get on blueray.Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_ahh...which one?Mar 29 23:27
Balrog_explain 'give up'?Mar 29 23:27
oiaohmYes under a nasty licence must pay patentsMar 29 23:28
Balrog_:(Mar 29 23:28
Balrog_well the 'fee' is $1 per encoder / decoder sold, but that doesn't say anything for fossMar 29 23:28
Balrog_(I may be a bit off with that number)Mar 29 23:28
oiaohmThat is right.Mar 29 23:29
oiaohm$1 per device to cover patents.Mar 29 23:29
oiaohmYes device markers can really negotate hard.Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_yeah. But how can that work with foss?Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_foss is given away, so you can't charge royalties....Mar 29 23:30
oiaohmIts like freetype and ffmpeg.Mar 29 23:30
Balrog_yeah, grey areaMar 29 23:30
Balrog_I still use it :) ... the x264 encoder is so much better than most 'official' onesMar 29 23:31
oiaohmRemember its not a encoder or decoder until its built into a binary.Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_ah hehMar 29 23:31
Balrog_well I build from sourceMar 29 23:31
Balrog_macports here, gentoo at schoolMar 29 23:31
oiaohmOnce coverted into an application then you are up for patent money.Mar 29 23:31
Balrog_so what? You have to include a compiler with your app? :OMar 29 23:32
oiaohmIf you are in the wrong countries.Mar 29 23:32
oiaohmSooner the patent system dies on software the better.Mar 29 23:32
oiaohmHopefully redhats plan works.Mar 29 23:32
Balrog_yeahMar 29 23:32
oiaohmPut a wall of patents around open source.Mar 29 23:32
Balrog_and hopefully MS vs. Tom-Tom helps (MS must lose)Mar 29 23:33
oiaohmSo locking closed source guys out the open source market.Mar 29 23:33
oiaohmSo getting them screaming there heads of to kill the patent system.Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_did you know that HDTV in the US is patented?Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_ 29 23:33
oiaohmYepMar 29 23:33
Balrog_old-fashioned TV was analogMar 29 23:33
Balrog_idk how you could patent that ;)Mar 29 23:33
Balrog_probably some component of the circuit, but there would be a way to work around itMar 29 23:34
oiaohmAnalog TV was patented.Mar 29 23:35
oiaohmQuite completely.Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_hmm ... interestingMar 29 23:35
oiaohmOver 3000 patents in a tv set.Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_wowMar 29 23:35
Balrog_did you read about the whole mess with Farnsworth and Sarnoff?Mar 29 23:35
oiaohmNopMar 29 23:35
Balrog_(Farnsworth getting ripped off by RCA)Mar 29 23:35
Balrog_take a lookMar 29 23:36
Balrog_http://en.wikipedia.or...Mar 29 23:36
Balrog_even though he won the patent case and got royalties, he never got richMar 29 23:37
Balrog_(thanks to the power of large corporations like RCA)Mar 29 23:37
oiaohmThat is what is going to happen to most patent holders.Mar 29 23:38
oiaohmYou cannot get a good deal when dealing with really large enitys.Mar 29 23:38
Balrog_yeah, unfortunately :(Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_read about Harold Pitcairn as wellMar 29 23:39
oiaohmMS problem with Linux.Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_he was the main inventor behind helicopter technologyMar 29 23:39
oiaohmLinux is targeting the large groups.Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_got patents, but got ripped off, and the government supported those who ripped him offMar 29 23:39
oiaohmSo force MS into the market where the profit is not.Mar 29 23:39
Balrog_yeah.Mar 29 23:40
oiaohmMS cannot follow Linux into the motherboard.Mar 29 23:40
oiaohmIt goes in there its dead.Mar 29 23:40
oiaohmI am supprised motherboard companies have not done this yet shipping with like Ubuntu disks.Mar 29 23:40
Balrog_well, not everyone builds computersMar 29 23:41
oiaohmSo there users cannot be accuesed of being software pirates it was aquired with a OS.Mar 29 23:41
oiaohmThat move would be the max MS stuff up.Mar 29 23:41
Balrog_PC manufacturers should be forced to stop bundling windows.Mar 29 23:42
Balrog_Let a user buy a PC without OS and get a free Linux disc, or pay $70 or so for an OEM windows discMar 29 23:42
schestowitzhttp://www.stefanoforenza... "Ubuntu’s community manager clamorously fails at explaining the values of having a community, or opening up to a community. The intent was (probably) good, the concept expressed terribly bad. I won’t read his book ;-) ."Mar 29 23:43
schestowitz "I am leaving Red Hat. Onward. "Mar 29 23:43
Balrog_heh, mono is being unused so it offers to remove it :)Mar 29 23:44
Balrog_good ideaMar 29 23:44
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@ has joined #boycottnovellMar 29 23:48
schestowitzSolaris has a nice wallpaper: 29 23:49
_Hicham_it is not as good as fedora'sMar 29 23:50
_Hicham_fedora has really great artworkMar 29 23:50
schestowitz (A Short Review of OpenSolaris 2008.11)Mar 29 23:52
schestowitzQuestion: should I mention Solaris and Symbian in BN?Mar 29 23:53
schestowitzBecause I try to avoid giving them visibilityMar 29 23:53
schestowitzThey compete with the GPLMar 29 23:53
schestowitz_Hicham_: I have some new Fedora vids to show youMar 29 23:53
schestowitzActually, Michael made emMar 29 23:53
Balrog_Solaris, yeah, because of Java at leastMar 29 23:53
schestowitz 29 23:53
Balrog_Symbian, not yetMar 29 23:53
schestowitzHe has a large flat planelMar 29 23:53
schestowitzBigger than mineMar 29 23:54
schestowitz*panelMar 29 23:54
schestowitzBut if I show OpenSolaris people might try it--- not good for GPL and GNU/LinuxMar 29 23:54
Balrog_what about Nexenta?Mar 29 23:55
schestowitzSymbian has Nokia's shadow on it... with softare patents, DRM, and utter junk...Mar 29 23:55
schestowitzBalrog: what about it?Mar 29 23:55
Balrog_it's GNU/SolarisMar 29 23:55
schestowitzyesMar 29 23:55
Balrog_technicallyMar 29 23:55
schestowitzCDDLMar 29 23:55
Balrog_well the userland is gplMar 29 23:55
oiaohmEveryone is forgetting about the effects of displacement.Mar 29 23:57
oiaohmNokia and others are starting to use the same OS types as the netbooks.Mar 29 23:57
schestowitzYesMar 29 23:57
_Hicham_really oiaohm?Mar 29 23:57
oiaohmThere market is not what you call going perfect.Mar 29 23:57
schestowitzBut Nokia is not a party that can be trustedMar 29 23:57
schestowitzBetter to push GNU/Linux for nowMar 29 23:57
schestowitzAt least it's GPLMar 29 23:57
schestowitzGPLv3 would be nice... hurdMar 29 23:57
oiaohmSo there is a risk that Nokia could be displaced into making netbooks.Mar 29 23:58
oiaohmNot what MS would want.Mar 29 23:58
oiaohmThen end of phone/desktop OS divide could be on us.Mar 29 23:58
schestowitzThere's MaemoMar 29 23:59
schestowitzThough the community took cntrolMar 29 23:59
oiaohmNokia low end phones are not selling.  High end smart phones are still selling but numbers don't make up for it.Mar 29 23:59
schestowitzNokia in a tizzy..Mar 29 23:59

Recent Techrights' Posts

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Ean Schuessler & Debian SPI OSI trademark disputes
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Windows in Sudan: From 99.15% to 2.12%
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[Meme] The 'Cancel Culture' and Its 'Hit List'
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