Techrights logo

IRC: #techrights @ FreeNode: August 23rd, 2010

Join us now at the IRC channel.

sebsebseb_Goblin: I guess you haven't been following the above much, but what do you think?Aug 23 00:00
_GoblinIts a subject I would like to discuss...unfortunately its quite late here and Im getting ready to leave...Aug 23 00:01
_GoblinI will certainly take it up with you on MondayAug 23 00:01
sebsebseb_Goblin: same time hereAug 23 00:01
sebsebseb_Goblin: well it just became Monday, for  you and meAug 23 00:01
_Goblinspot on!Aug 23 00:01
sebsebseb_Goblin: yeah you mean later on, and you got to go to bed since work, I guessAug 23 00:02
oiaohmLack of upstreaming effectivelly makes Canonical bad for open sourceAug 23 00:02
_Goblinyeah...Im just waiting for some updates to finish then Im off.Aug 23 00:02
oiaohmProviding programs to end users that are unstable in so called stable releases also makes Canonical bad for open source.Aug 23 00:02
sebsebseboiaohm: I typed Canonical aboveAug 23 00:02
sebsebsebwhen I was meant to have typed OracaleAug 23 00:02
oiaohmOracle  hard question.Aug 23 00:02
sebsebsebaltough sure same thing for Canonical, are they bad for opensource/freesoftware, altough we been through that kind of thing before, and like you say, lack of upstream contributionsAug 23 00:03
oiaohmOracle does upstream.Aug 23 00:03
oiaohmAlways has.Aug 23 00:03
sebsebsebaltough the Gnome devs won't always except Canonical or Novell changesAug 23 00:03
oiaohmIf they are using something internal and they alter it upstream open source projects will see the alteration.Aug 23 00:03
oiaohmEven if they are there competition.Aug 23 00:03
oiaohmYes postgresql has recieved patches from Oracle.Aug 23 00:04
oiaohmPatches that improved postgresql performance.Aug 23 00:04
oiaohmOracle does a lot of good for open source.Aug 23 00:05
oiaohmBut they are also money hungry.Aug 23 00:05
oiaohmIe don't get between Oracle and there cash you will regret it.Aug 23 00:05
_GoblinRight, Im off...Good night allAug 23 00:06
*_Goblin has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)Aug 23 00:06
oiaohmAlso closing down of OpenSolaris is kinda required.   By this point if the Open Solaris community is strong it should be able to stand on their own two feet.Aug 23 00:07
oiaohmSame with closing down postgresql build servers.Aug 23 00:07
oiaohmEveryone was taking sun for grantted.  sebsebsebAug 23 00:07
oiaohmIt had to stop at some point.Aug 23 00:07
*TRT (~twitfolk@216.105.40.114) has joined #techrightsAug 23 00:07
sebsebseboh TRT is the new bot I assumeAug 23 00:08
oiaohmReally you can say that some of the death of SUN was caused by OpenSource project not sharing the load of support the project between companies.  sebsebsebAug 23 00:08
sebsebseboiaohm: OpenSolaris  is a kind of competitor to Solaris I guessAug 23 00:08
sebsebseboiaohm: and if they do their freeware thing instead, thats mroe propritary, but more money making company likeAug 23 00:08
sebsebsebI guessAug 23 00:08
schestowitzsebsebseb: ayeAug 23 00:08
sebsebsebschestowitz: is that a yes?Aug 23 00:09
oiaohmSolaris will still be releasing there code.Aug 23 00:09
oiaohmAfter releases not before.Aug 23 00:09
sebsebsebyeah, but after the Solaris commercail versions comes outAug 23 00:09
sebsebsebby the sounds of what I readAug 23 00:09
oiaohmRemember Oracle could have chosen not to release source code at all.  sebsebsebAug 23 00:09
oiaohmAnd completley killed the open source project means to sync.Aug 23 00:09
sebsebsebmeans to Sync?Aug 23 00:10
oiaohmFeature sync.Aug 23 00:10
oiaohmSo that binarys of one can run on the other.Aug 23 00:10
oiaohmIe oralce could have forced them to reverse.Aug 23 00:11
oiaohmIn my eyes what Oracle has done is to test how strong the Open Solaris community is.Aug 23 00:11
sebsebseboiaohm: Open Solaris community do you mean nexentra as well?Aug 23 00:12
sebsebseboiaohm: and the fork of OpenSolaris?Aug 23 00:12
oiaohmIf it starts creating new features all on its own forcing Oracle to sync the other way.Aug 23 00:12
sebsebsebDo you mean everything Solaris thats open?Aug 23 00:12
oiaohmThen is valueable to Oracle.Aug 23 00:12
oiaohmIf it turns out that Open Solaris was just a vampire without its own will.  for Oracle future its better off dead.Aug 23 00:13
oiaohmAll the Solaris branches off are facing the test.  sebsebsebAug 23 00:13
oiaohmThey will either pass or fail.Aug 23 00:13
sebsebseband if Solaris dies everything Solaris so what I guessAug 23 00:14
sebsebsebsince Linux and BSDAug 23 00:14
sebsebseb:)Aug 23 00:14
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: it's troubling, there is good technology in Solaris.Aug 23 00:14
sebsebsebhowever I haven't used this sutff before, was going to vm nexentra at one stage, but something, or  however it wentAug 23 00:14
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: the open strategy that Schwartz put in place was a win-win directionAug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: Oracle is the kiss of deathAug 23 00:15
oiaohmWithout getting outside kernel development there is no way Oracle can fund Solaris to keep up with LinuxAug 23 00:15
sebsebsebFurnaceBoy: Schwartz former Sun CEO/Founder?Aug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: right, and Schwartz knwe it, long termAug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: yes.. not founderAug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: late ceoAug 23 00:15
oiaohmSo really Oracle hand was forced over Open SolarisAug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: i disagreeAug 23 00:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: nothign was forced. we are merely seeing oracle's full blown intransigenceAug 23 00:16
oiaohmBy pulling there staff out they get to find if there are any inovators in the open source side.   FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: the death wish to destroy their own assetsAug 23 00:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: many engineers quit, even before the takeoeverAug 23 00:16
oiaohmAnd a lot are not working on Solarias anymore either FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: i knowAug 23 00:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's a clusterfuckAug 23 00:16
FurnaceBoybye bye SolarisAug 23 00:16
*FurnaceBoy was a happy solaris user and tinkererAug 23 00:17
oiaohmPulling back some of those who left might be tempted to come back and take over the open source side.Aug 23 00:17
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's gone. the coffin is being loweredAug 23 00:17
FurnaceBoyinto the graveAug 23 00:17
sebsebsebFurnaceBoy: remind me what cluster... means?  I guess it means failure basicalelyAug 23 00:17
oiaohmCoffin was already being lowered into the grave.Aug 23 00:17
oiaohmBefore oracle pulled support off of open solaris.Aug 23 00:17
FurnaceBoysebsebseb: clusterf*** is a word meaning extraordinarily ramified screwupAug 23 00:18
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: yes of course.Aug 23 00:18
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: but under Schwartz all the right things were happeningAug 23 00:18
oiaohmBut progress against what competors were doing was not fast enough FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:18
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: not entirely true.Aug 23 00:18
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: zfs was in production ~ 6 yrs ago with no competitionAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoystill has no competitionAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoyzones: matureAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoyetc, etc, etcAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoylinux has NOT been quick to catch up to SolarisAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoykernel devs IGNORED ZFS for most of those six yearsAug 23 00:19
oiaohmBecause ZFS is licence incompadible.Aug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoymaybe, maybe not.Aug 23 00:19
oiaohmIt is FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:19
FurnaceBoythey ignored it for various reasons.Aug 23 00:19
oiaohmThere is no maybe not.Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: that is not conclusive at all.Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: i assume you don't read the zfs lits...Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoylist*Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoythere are other reasons they ignored it, including NIH and a technical disparagementAug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoyyou may recall the phrase, "rampant layering violations."Aug 23 00:20
oiaohmI see you don't sit in on the open source legal deparment.Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: the licensing question has been discussed ad nauseam on the zfs list.Aug 23 00:20
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it is not at all conclusively incompatible.Aug 23 00:20
oiaohmBy people who are not qualified to talk legally about licences.Aug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: noAug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: read the listAug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: also, there is a new linux zfs projectAug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoyBehlendorf'sAug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoyin any case, license insecurity was only one issue raised by linux people.Aug 23 00:21
FurnaceBoythere is also NIH, and technical quibbling over layeringAug 23 00:21
oiaohmBehlendorf's cannot mainline.Aug 23 00:22
FurnaceBoywell, i'm not going to discuss the license issue here.Aug 23 00:22
oiaohmThat is a major issue.Aug 23 00:22
FurnaceBoyit's been done to death on the list.Aug 23 00:22
oiaohmDo you know the failure rate for non mainline drivers.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:23
FurnaceBoyyou can refer to many postings, for example those by Joerg Schilling, who cites various lawyersAug 23 00:23
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Interview with a cyclops http://ur1.ca/17jd1Aug 23 00:23
oiaohmIt is the kiss of death basically FurnaceBoy  It is either merge or get broken.Aug 23 00:23
FurnaceBoyfineAug 23 00:24
FurnaceBoyi'm not waiting for zfs in linuxAug 23 00:24
oiaohmbtrfs will be on the Linux side.Aug 23 00:24
FurnaceBoysure, btrfs != zfsAug 23 00:24
FurnaceBoyit will take btrfs the usual 5+ years to matureAug 23 00:24
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] @schestowitz: not that I am aware of, and would be surprised if so - we explicitly state that we support "parody" in our trademark agreementAug 23 00:24
FurnaceBoyit does look like apple made the right decision in hindsight though.......Aug 23 00:25
FurnaceBoyto clone zfs themselves rather then get into the lion's den as Snorcle has turned out to be.Aug 23 00:25
FurnaceBoythan*Aug 23 00:25
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] ♺ @ericabrescia: Please Help Colin Recover His Kidnapped Children: http://bothsid.es/7EG thank you @johnkerry for your supportAug 23 00:25
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Please Help My Friend Colin Recover His Kidnapped Children: Noor & Ramsay | Both Sides of the Table .::. Size~: 37.06 KBAug 23 00:25
sebsebsebschestowitz: why is it called TRT, but on the thing its called TwitFok ?Aug 23 00:25
oiaohmMost of what zones is cgroup is these days on Linux FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:26
FurnaceBoyexcept zones are mature.Aug 23 00:26
FurnaceBoypeople who use Solaris don't generally want to futz aroundAug 23 00:27
oiaohmcgroup support will mature inside 12 months.Aug 23 00:27
FurnaceBoyof course linux has some 'workalike' stuff that may be solid eventuallyAug 23 00:27
FurnaceBoybut Solaris people run businesses on it, todayAug 23 00:27
oiaohmAnd I do mean will FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoybut anyway, it's history nowAug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: sure it will.Aug 23 00:28
oiaohmcgroup is being intergrated into the startup system.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: but zones were mature years ago, so people like me have been using them for yearsAug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoyi am sure it is.Aug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoyi am sure it will be great.Aug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoynothing to do with solaris thoAug 23 00:28
FurnaceBoyi am sure freebsd jails are great. and i may end up trying that, since i can have zfs there too.Aug 23 00:28
oiaohmI don't think you can control realtime with solaris zones.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:29
FurnaceBoywhat if i don't need to?Aug 23 00:29
*Judas_PhD has quit (Quit: This is a quitting message)Aug 23 00:29
*FurnaceBoy sighsAug 23 00:29
FurnaceBoydifferent product, differnt market, and history anyway. not much point in discussing it.Aug 23 00:29
oiaohmFunny once I start saying something that goes past what solaris can do I get the answer what if I don't need to.Aug 23 00:30
*ThistleWeb never tried solaris, and now that opensolaris is a dead duck he doubt's he ever willAug 23 00:30
*ThistleWeb doesn't think he missed muchAug 23 00:30
oiaohmYet when Linux guys answer the same thing lot of solaris guys call use inferor.Aug 23 00:30
oiaohmYou cannot have it both ways FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:31
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: but I don't need to.Aug 23 00:31
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: zones do what I want.Aug 23 00:31
FurnaceBoy?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!Aug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoyjeezAug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoyi am not interested in realtime, period.Aug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoynot relevant to what I do.Aug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoyif I WERE, then I'd look for something that did what I neededAug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoyMAYBE EVEN LINUX.Aug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoycapisce?Aug 23 00:32
cubevectorRTLinuxAug 23 00:32
FurnaceBoyin other words: "oiaohm | I don't think you can control realtime with solaris zones." <-- is not in the least bit relevant.Aug 23 00:33
oiaohmThe big thing hear the work on realtime has causes dome interesting things.Aug 23 00:33
FurnaceBoycubevector: see above: "i am not interested in realtime, period. / not relevant to what I do."Aug 23 00:33
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: sureAug 23 00:33
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] !Gnash 0.8.8 is out! http://gnashdev.org/?q=node/76 !gnu !fsf !fsAug 23 00:33
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Gnash 0.8.8 Released | Gnash Project .::. Size~: 5.61 KBAug 23 00:33
oiaohmrealtime intergration with cgroups have giving better webserver repsonces.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:33
FurnaceBoyyay!Aug 23 00:33
FurnaceBoyhooray!Aug 23 00:33
FurnaceBoyjesus christ, people, it's POSSIBLE to talk about stuff SOlaris did well and why people chose Solaris WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT FUTURE LINUX FEATURES.Aug 23 00:33
oiaohmIe being able to drop request processing when there is no point sending because it would have timed out already.Aug 23 00:34
FurnaceBoyhoo-ray.Aug 23 00:34
oiaohmThis is not future.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:34
FurnaceBoyzippy ay yayAug 23 00:34
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's also NOT RELEVANT TO WHAT I WAS DOINGAug 23 00:34
oiaohmThis is current google branch.Aug 23 00:34
FurnaceBoyso freaking what?Aug 23 00:34
FurnaceBoyi am interested in stuff that solves problems I actually have. if that's a problem I have sometime, then I'll be real happy Google fixed that for me.Aug 23 00:35
oiaohmProblem is I am seeing nothing out the Solaris side that will keep it ahead over the next 12.Aug 23 00:35
FurnaceBoynor do I.Aug 23 00:35
FurnaceBoyit ceased to be relevant when oracle ended opensolaris.Aug 23 00:35
oiaohmEven before that.Aug 23 00:36
oiaohmBiggest advantage solaris had was that Linux Locking was shot to hell.Aug 23 00:36
ThistleWebwasnt the filesystem supposed to be coveted by the linux side?Aug 23 00:36
FurnaceBoyand ZFS.Aug 23 00:36
ThistleWebyeah zfsAug 23 00:36
FurnaceBoynobody has anything approaching ZFS.Aug 23 00:36
oiaohmThat is the problem.Aug 23 00:36
FurnaceBoynot btrfs, not for a few years yet.Aug 23 00:36
FurnaceBoysure btrfs will end up covering it, because they finally worked out they needed it.Aug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoyas did Apple.Aug 23 00:37
oiaohmDiskspeed and storage issues have not been a worry to Linux.Aug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoyintegrity!Aug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoyit's about integrity, which RAID does not offer.Aug 23 00:37
oiaohmLinux has other cluster filesystems that go past RAIDAug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoythe throughput, manageability stuff is just cake.Aug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: none of them offer integrity of the order of zfs, and you know that.Aug 23 00:37
FurnaceBoyunless, perhaps , you haven;t studied it..Aug 23 00:38
oiaohmSorry some do.  Some execeed zfsAug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoyhehAug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoyno, incorrect.Aug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoyyou're utterly mistaken.Aug 23 00:38
oiaohmCorrectAug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoyyou haven;'t studied zfsAug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoycome back when you haveAug 23 00:38
oiaohmI have studied both.Aug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoyend to end? who does it.Aug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoythere's not a single other product that does it.Aug 23 00:38
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @osamak #Gnash 0.8.8 is out! http://gnashdev.org/?q=node/76 #gnu #fsf #fsAug 23 00:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Gnash 0.8.8 Released | Gnash Project .::. Size~: 5.61 KBAug 23 00:38
FurnaceBoymerkle trees? who does it.Aug 23 00:39
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 00:39
FurnaceBoythere is no linux filesystem, or any other filesystem that I am aware of, doing end to end checksumming and self healing.Aug 23 00:39
FurnaceBoyobviously RAID isn't capable of it.Aug 23 00:39
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] North Korea Looking For Friends On Facebook http://bit.ly/ahz9GbAug 23 00:39
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | North Korea Looking For Friends On Facebook .::. Size~: 47.13 KBAug 23 00:39
oiaohmThe clusters do self heal.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:40
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: nope.Aug 23 00:40
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: there's no end to end checksum.Aug 23 00:40
oiaohmLOLAug 23 00:40
oiaohmThat is the mistake FurnaceBoy.   You think the native filesystem on disk has to know about protection for the protection to work.Aug 23 00:41
FurnaceBoyeh?Aug 23 00:41
oiaohmWhen you are using cluster object based filesystems.Aug 23 00:41
oiaohmThe files on the native filesystem protection means nothing.Aug 23 00:41
oiaohmInfact having protection there slows the process down.Aug 23 00:41
FurnaceBoyexplain how these filesystems guarantee that bad data never reaches your applicationAug 23 00:42
FurnaceBoycluster filesystems*Aug 23 00:42
oiaohmSame way ZFS basically does.  Except they are the layer above direct.Aug 23 00:42
FurnaceBoyexplain exactly howAug 23 00:42
-TRT/#techrights-[wikileaks] WL: ABC Foreign Correspondent video report on Thailand http://bit.ly/bU7Kp6Aug 23 00:42
FurnaceBoywho checks the wire?Aug 23 00:42
TechrightsBot-trTitle: ABC Foreign Correspondent video report on Thailand, 13 April 2010 - WikiLeaks .::. Size~: 18.6 KBAug 23 00:42
oiaohmEven checking the wire does not stop bad data.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:43
FurnaceBoyughAug 23 00:43
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: with zfs it doesAug 23 00:43
oiaohmNopAug 23 00:43
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: obviouslyAug 23 00:43
FurnaceBoyyou seem to be very unfamiliar with itAug 23 00:44
oiaohmNo I have am am familiar with it.  I have had to data recover it.Aug 23 00:44
FurnaceBoythen you know that checksum is checked on host, and selfhealing will operate.Aug 23 00:44
oiaohmAs long as checksum is correct.Aug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoyhuh?!?!?!Aug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoywtf?Aug 23 00:45
oiaohmYes I have seen damage that bad.Aug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoyI am not interested in non-redundant configurations of zfs.Aug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoyin a redundant configuration, self healing protects end to endAug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoydrive to appAug 23 00:45
FurnaceBoyno other system does thisAug 23 00:45
oiaohmThe clusters don't depend on a checksum from a single source.Aug 23 00:46
FurnaceBoyyou seem confusedAug 23 00:46
oiaohmTo validate.Aug 23 00:46
oiaohmIt is a coding error FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:46
FurnaceBoywhat?Aug 23 00:46
FurnaceBoyon earth are you talking about.Aug 23 00:46
FurnaceBoyit's very simple.Aug 23 00:46
oiaohmzfs solaris right conditions fails.Aug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoya block is checksummed. if either the block or checksum is corrupt, redundancy will replace it and write back.Aug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoythis works end to end, obviously...Aug 23 00:47
oiaohmWhat if damage is to checksum and block that is passes.Aug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoyobviously that is a non-issue.Aug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoyyou are confusedAug 23 00:47
oiaohmThat is what I have seen.Aug 23 00:47
FurnaceBoythere's no loophole here.Aug 23 00:48
oiaohmAnd worst part it was center of a database.Aug 23 00:48
oiaohmAnd murfy had a filed day.Aug 23 00:48
oiaohmThe bad block was replated to the other drive where zfs thought it was damaged.Aug 23 00:48
oiaohmSingle source of checksum has a issue.Aug 23 00:48
FurnaceBoywhat do you mean 'single source of checksum'. was it a redundant configuration or not?Aug 23 00:49
FurnaceBoyif not, then of course it's fragile.Aug 23 00:49
FurnaceBoyi'm not interested in non-redundant uses of zfsAug 23 00:49
oiaohmIt was in redundant.Aug 23 00:49
FurnaceBoyso what do you mean 'single source of checksum'.Aug 23 00:49
oiaohmTiming of events was perfect.Aug 23 00:49
FurnaceBoy"oiaohm | What if damage is to checksum and block that is passes." <-- there is no such loophole.Aug 23 00:50
FurnaceBoy(assuming i understand this sentence)Aug 23 00:50
oiaohmIt has happened.Aug 23 00:50
oiaohmBy zfs documents it is impossoble.Aug 23 00:50
FurnaceBoy of course it is.Aug 23 00:50
FurnaceBoythis is not a 'coding error'Aug 23 00:50
oiaohmBut read closer is not.Aug 23 00:51
oiaohmThe condtions is rare.Aug 23 00:51
oiaohmzfs does not stop when it down to a single source of checksums due to errors.Aug 23 00:51
oiaohmIe the safe point to back off.Aug 23 00:51
oiaohmGoing past that and trying to heal does have risks of doing more damge.Aug 23 00:52
FurnaceBoysure, the fault management stuff is being improvedAug 23 00:52
FurnaceBoybut this is after 6 years.Aug 23 00:52
FurnaceBoybtrfs hasn't had a shakedown periodAug 23 00:53
FurnaceBoyso it might be ready in 6-10 yrs from now :)Aug 23 00:53
FurnaceBoyasusming it even has the same ambitionsAug 23 00:53
FurnaceBoy(not clear yet)Aug 23 00:53
oiaohmCluster side filesystem good ones as soon as you are down to a single source of checksums they presume damaged.Aug 23 00:53
oiaohmAnd don't attempt repairing.Aug 23 00:53
oiaohminstead call for help.Aug 23 00:53
FurnaceBoybut where's the end to end? it's not there.Aug 23 00:54
oiaohmThat is the zfs mistake.  FurnaceBoy no knowing when to stop.Aug 23 00:54
FurnaceBoyzfs has configurable behaviour when a pool is degraded.Aug 23 00:55
FurnaceBoyit can certainly be asked to stop or even panic if there is a data risk.Aug 23 00:55
FurnaceBoyobv not all sites choose such a paranoid optionAug 23 00:55
oiaohmLike in a cluster 3 checksums remain on three storage locations and a 4 is damaged.    It will attempt repair.Aug 23 00:56
oiaohmzfs is not count remaining checksums to make selection if or if not repair.Aug 23 00:56
FurnaceBoywell, you can't get around the fact taht cluster filesystems don't offer end to end checksumming.Aug 23 00:57
oiaohmNether does zfs when using object base network storage drives.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 00:57
FurnaceBoydepends on your architecture. normally yes.Aug 23 00:58
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] Spammer from *.co.cc/sitemap.php are so annoying. !identica (cc: @support)Aug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoythere's no inherent obstacle to end to end with network drivesAug 23 00:58
oiaohmThe object base storage drives provide a filesystem independant checksum.Aug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoyin fact, it's idealAug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoywhich is USELESS.Aug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoyobviouslyAug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoya checksum in a remote storage device is USELESS.Aug 23 00:58
FurnaceBoyif it's verified there.Aug 23 00:59
FurnaceBoyit does NOT check end to end. QEDAug 23 00:59
FurnaceBoyyou *know* that.Aug 23 00:59
oiaohmYes.Aug 23 00:59
FurnaceBoystored in one end, verified in the other -- that's what I am talking about.Aug 23 00:59
FurnaceBoyand triggering self healing.Aug 23 00:59
FurnaceBoythe remote device can be networked, doesn't matter.Aug 23 00:59
oiaohmCluster filesystems at client verified at client.Aug 23 00:59
oiaohmThe object base storage verified at the other end.Aug 23 01:00
oiaohmso yes end to end.Aug 23 01:00
FurnaceBoywhich one does that, and self healing?Aug 23 01:00
FurnaceBoyperhaps somebody has caught up at lastAug 23 01:00
FurnaceBoywhat's the name of the system that does that?Aug 23 01:00
oiaohmIts a set of systems.Aug 23 01:00
oiaohmNot a single FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:00
FurnaceBoywhat's the productAug 23 01:01
oiaohmThat is why it not the solaris users radar.Aug 23 01:01
oiaohmYou have object based storage.  What is one thing.Aug 23 01:01
oiaohmThat get exposed to network.Aug 23 01:01
FurnaceBoywhat 's the product that does end to end checksums and self healing?Aug 23 01:01
oiaohmObject based storage has local deteciton of errors and requests repair instructions.Aug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoynever mind.Aug 23 01:02
oiaohmBy design.Aug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoyok, so you can't name a PRODUCT that does what ZFS does.Aug 23 01:02
oiaohmIts 4 products.Aug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoycalled?Aug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoy"local detection of errors" != end to endAug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 01:02
FurnaceBoythe checksum must be generated at client, stored at device, verified at client.Aug 23 01:03
FurnaceBoywho else does that?Aug 23 01:03
FurnaceBoyspecifically.Aug 23 01:03
oiaohmhttp://www.xtreemfs.org/features.phpAug 23 01:04
TechrightsBot-trTitle: XtreemFS - features and roadmap .::. Size~: 15.9 KBAug 23 01:04
oiaohmAnd other cluster based filesystems.Aug 23 01:04
oiaohmDo client generated and client verified.Aug 23 01:04
FurnaceBoy"This will be extended in future versions to full end-to-end checksums."Aug 23 01:04
FurnaceBoyONE DAY.Aug 23 01:04
FurnaceBoyso that one doesn't.Aug 23 01:04
FurnaceBoyname another one.Aug 23 01:04
oiaohmNo when used in combindation.Aug 23 01:04
FurnaceBoywell I give up, I have guacamole to make. if you think of one , point it out.Aug 23 01:05
oiaohmWith network object the checksum can be compared against what the storage says it has.Aug 23 01:05
FurnaceBoyon the client.Aug 23 01:05
FurnaceBoyand the checksum must be generated on the client.Aug 23 01:05
oiaohmGenerated both ends.Aug 23 01:05
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 01:05
FurnaceBoychecksum generated remote is uselss,Aug 23 01:05
oiaohmNo its not.Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoysighAug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoyi give up.Aug 23 01:06
oiaohmWhat is the point of storing something remote.Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoyyou can;t name another system that does end to end.Aug 23 01:06
oiaohmIf its wrong.Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: >???????Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: OF COURSE you can store an incorrect client gen checksum remotely.Aug 23 01:06
oiaohmI am talking client and storage.Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoyTHAT'S THE POINT!Aug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoythat's what's SUPPOSED to happenAug 23 01:06
FurnaceBoythat's why you generate it on the hostAug 23 01:07
FurnaceBoyyou are SUPPOSED to expose it to the rigours of the WHOLE chain of communication.Aug 23 01:07
FurnaceBoythat's why it's a checksum and not a lemon iced cupcakeAug 23 01:07
oiaohmGenerated on host yes.   And regenerated on storage.  So that checksum for block has to match betfore storage stores it.Aug 23 01:07
FurnaceBoythat part is irrelevant.Aug 23 01:07
FurnaceBoya checksum generated and verified remotely is of no use.Aug 23 01:08
oiaohmAnd then reverse the other way.Aug 23 01:08
oiaohmAs well as a checksum table.Aug 23 01:08
FurnaceBoysure, you can CHECK the block store. that's not importantAug 23 01:08
oiaohmThat is shared between storages.Aug 23 01:08
FurnaceBoythat's just a deisgn decisionAug 23 01:08
FurnaceBoyeh??????Aug 23 01:08
FurnaceBoyso, which system does end to end and self healingAug 23 01:09
FurnaceBoynot xtreemfs, they haven't implemented itAug 23 01:09
FurnaceBoyit's a TODOAug 23 01:09
-TRT/#techrights-[wikileaks] Former Swedish chief prosecutor, Sven-Erik Alhem, demands explanations in Assange case http://bit.ly/ae9e6GAug 23 01:13
oiaohmThere is a particular peice I am looking for.  It works a the Object layer.   The transfer layer.  Controlling the network object based storages to replacate between them to repair.Aug 23 01:13
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Skandinav i Florida :: Former Swedish chief prosecutor demands explanation for arrest order .::. Size~: 19.12 KBAug 23 01:14
FurnaceBoycollaborate with DaemonFC and write it :)Aug 23 01:14
oiaohmSo repair load does not have to come back client.Aug 23 01:14
oiaohmIt exists FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:14
oiaohmI remember the file system is design comes from but.  I don't think that is the right one.  Ie Googles filesystem.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:18
oiaohmAnnoying part I only was workign with it 6 months ago.Aug 23 01:19
FurnaceBoygoogle 's requirements are specialised. they have a distributed store, self healing would be a simple enhancementAug 23 01:19
-TRT/#techrights-[qu1j0t3] Editorialising? Yes. Of course #wikileaks wants the wars over,done with. If they wanted #war 2 go on forever, they'd stop what they're doingAug 23 01:19
*ThistleWeb has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)Aug 23 01:20
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] Working on summarizing #EbenMoglen's two 'freedom in cloud' talks in #Arabic. Not an easy task! #EbenEffect.Aug 23 01:23
oiaohmProblem is I can remember the features.   Its a distributed store like googles filesystem.Aug 23 01:23
oiaohmIt has store to store replication for repair and client to store control for repair.Aug 23 01:24
FurnaceBoywell there's the clone, HDFSAug 23 01:24
FurnaceBoybut self healing as I say is a simple addition to a distributed storeAug 23 01:24
FurnaceBoyi mean, it's practically part of the spec anywayAug 23 01:24
oiaohmAnd client end checksums and server side checksums.Aug 23 01:25
oiaohmIe server finds problem redirect client to another server until its repaired.Aug 23 01:25
oiaohmIts nice.Aug 23 01:25
oiaohmIf I could remember its god darn name.Aug 23 01:25
FurnaceBoynot HDFS?Aug 23 01:26
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Urgent: Support Liberty http://ur1.ca/17jrvAug 23 01:28
-BNi/#techrights-[lnxwalt140/@lnxwalt140] Final score: Cincinnati Reds 3, Los Angeles #Dodgers 2. #LABaseballAug 23 01:28
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] Have 3 $30 tix for Mens' Boxing Finals on Wed Aug 25 2pm at Suntec City. My sons and I can't go. DM me please. #fbAug 23 01:28
oiaohmHadoop Distributed File System  That is for sure the right class.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:29
*desu has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)Aug 23 01:29
FurnaceBoyokzAug 23 01:29
FurnaceBoyi didn't check whether it did client gen/verified checksums. maybe some day when i need it, i will :)Aug 23 01:29
FurnaceBoybut you're right, the *potential* exissAug 23 01:30
FurnaceBoyexists*Aug 23 01:30
oiaohmI know one of that class does.Aug 23 01:30
oiaohmI cannot say with a 100 percent if it that oen.Aug 23 01:30
oiaohmThe one I was using had two extras.  One was stopping when there were not enough checkable blocks left from repairing.Aug 23 01:31
oiaohmVery much like googles where if you get under 3 it stops.Aug 23 01:32
oiaohmAnd yells for help.Aug 23 01:32
oiaohmA feature that zfs would be wise to add.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:33
oiaohmDoes not stop the rest of the filesystem from being access just locked out the unable to determin state file until it could be repaired. FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:34
oiaohmSorry for not being able to remember its name.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:37
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: that feature already exists.Aug 23 01:39
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's a config optionAug 23 01:39
oiaohmWhen was it added.Aug 23 01:39
FurnaceBoyyour site must have been running the less conservative settingAug 23 01:39
FurnaceBoywell, it was always very strictAug 23 01:39
FurnaceBoythe early versions even panicked under some conditionsAug 23 01:39
FurnaceBoyit was loosened later not tightenedAug 23 01:40
FurnaceBoythe knob may not have existed in earliest versionsAug 23 01:40
oiaohmI could not see where I could set min numbers of blocks to be intact.Aug 23 01:40
oiaohmIe copies.Aug 23 01:40
FurnaceBoyyou are talking about a degraded pool.Aug 23 01:40
FurnaceBoyditto != pool redundancy.Aug 23 01:40
FurnaceBoyif you were running without vdev redundancy, then i am not surprised you had problems.Aug 23 01:40
FurnaceBoythat's by no means a recommended configurationAug 23 01:41
oiaohmI mean between pools.Aug 23 01:41
FurnaceBoyor rather, *I* am talking about a degraded pool.Aug 23 01:41
FurnaceBoy'between pools' ?Aug 23 01:41
oiaohmThis was a mess.Aug 23 01:41
FurnaceBoyyou mean between vdevs?Aug 23 01:41
oiaohmThe redundent pool throught it was correct.Aug 23 01:41
oiaohmIt checksums somehow passed.Aug 23 01:41
FurnaceBoyyou'd have to describe the whole stackAug 23 01:42
oiaohmSo when the prime got damaged.Aug 23 01:42
FurnaceBoyit's certainly possible to set up a fragile configuration.Aug 23 01:42
FurnaceBoyperhaps they screwed up the architectureAug 23 01:42
oiaohmThank god for backups.Aug 23 01:42
FurnaceBoyzfs is not a replacement for those.Aug 23 01:42
FurnaceBoyit offers integrity -- not backup :)Aug 23 01:42
oiaohmI was able to find a back up the damaged file.Aug 23 01:42
FurnaceBoyit sounds like the pool was not properly redundant.Aug 23 01:43
FurnaceBoythere are a number of ways to screw this up.Aug 23 01:43
oiaohmI know with the cluster filesystems with Linux.Aug 23 01:43
FurnaceBoythe easiest way is to run one vdev on raid.Aug 23 01:43
oiaohmsetting min numbers of blocks.Aug 23 01:43
FurnaceBoyidiots who don't realise raid is useless, might do thisAug 23 01:43
oiaohmbetween replicationsAug 23 01:43
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: no, that's not how it works.Aug 23 01:43
oiaohmto copy stops this.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: with zfs you knwo exactly what redundancy you have,Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it's in the vdev definition.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoythere's no uncertainty.Aug 23 01:44
oiaohmIe to repair must be 3 that are fine.Aug 23 01:44
oiaohmIe 3 copies.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: no, in zfs it's simpler.Aug 23 01:44
oiaohmOf that block.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: you have 2 kinds of redundancy. vdevs, and ditto blocks.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoythe latter are not going to save your poolAug 23 01:44
oiaohmIf there are not 3 copies don't repair.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoythe former will.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: no, that's not how zfs works.Aug 23 01:44
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: vdevs are in 2 classes of redundancy : mirror x N, raidz, raidz2Aug 23 01:45
FurnaceBoy(3)Aug 23 01:45
FurnaceBoyin each case, you know exactly what redundancy you have.Aug 23 01:45
FurnaceBoyare you referring to ditto copies?Aug 23 01:45
oiaohmThis failure is exactly same as that bring raids down.Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoyeh?Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoynoAug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoyzfs doesn't work as you described.Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoyare you referring to ditto copies?Aug 23 01:46
oiaohmmirrors yes.Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoynoAug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoythat's not a mirror.Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoya mirror is a form of vdev redundancy.Aug 23 01:46
FurnaceBoyit sounds like your site had a pool without redundancy.Aug 23 01:47
FurnaceBoythey may have relied on ditto blocks, which is an error.Aug 23 01:47
FurnaceBoyi've seen nothign in your explanation to show that this is not admin error.Aug 23 01:47
FurnaceBoythe form of config you mention (copies=N) applies to ditto blocks.Aug 23 01:48
oiaohmIt was a repair between pools to be correct between servers.Aug 23 01:49
FurnaceBoybut this MUST be ADDITIONAL to vdev redundancy.Aug 23 01:49
FurnaceBoysync?Aug 23 01:49
FurnaceBoyyou have to realise, there is no loophole in the checksumming.Aug 23 01:49
FurnaceBoyit solves every integrity issue that raid has.Aug 23 01:49
FurnaceBoy*if* your pool is properly redundant.Aug 23 01:49
oiaohmI am what you call data recovery.Aug 23 01:50
oiaohmI get to see the 1 in billion.Aug 23 01:50
FurnaceBoyyou mean a checksum collision.Aug 23 01:50
oiaohmYep.Aug 23 01:50
FurnaceBoythere's no evidence that this pool was correctly configuredAug 23 01:50
-TRT/#techrights-[einfeldt] RT @drewjensen: OpenOffice.org College Freshman Resources http://bit.ly/dnazMfAug 23 01:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: OpenOffice.org College Freshman Resources - Drew's blog .::. Size~: 46.6 KBAug 23 01:50
FurnaceBoyit's infinitely more likely that human error was involved, than a 128 bit checksum collision.Aug 23 01:50
oiaohmInside cluster filesystems that are solid repairs are done different.Aug 23 01:51
oiaohmIe two to 3 copies are aquired for a reapair.Aug 23 01:51
oiaohmAnd binary compared.Aug 23 01:51
oiaohmSo checksum error does not screw up repair.Aug 23 01:51
oiaohmThere is a lack of safeguards in the zfs repair process.  Yes admin error most likely helped.Aug 23 01:52
FurnaceBoyalso you are contradicting yourselfAug 23 01:52
oiaohmRemember I said 3 blocks must be in existance.Aug 23 01:52
FurnaceBoy"oiaohm | This failure is exactly same as that bring raids down." <cannot possibly be a checksum error, then.Aug 23 01:52
FurnaceBoywhich is it?Aug 23 01:52
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: 3 blocks? o.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoyno.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoythat's not how zfs works.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoythere is no "3 blocks".Aug 23 01:53
oiaohmI am refering how cluster filesystems prevent it.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoyyou either have a mirror (xN), raidz, or raidz2.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoywell sure, but zfs doesn't work like that.Aug 23 01:53
FurnaceBoyRAID is inherently fragile. it's useless.Aug 23 01:53
oiaohmraids can be undo by checksum errors.Aug 23 01:54
FurnaceBoyit has no integrity guarantee.Aug 23 01:54
FurnaceBoyraid doesnt checksum except for a few proprietary products.Aug 23 01:54
FurnaceBoyand in that case, it's not end to end, either.Aug 23 01:54
FurnaceBoyzfs does not share a failure mode with raid except "losing too many disks".Aug 23 01:54
FurnaceBoychecksum raid is not useful for the reasons discussed above.Aug 23 01:55
FurnaceBoyand ordinary raid has no integrity guarantee at all.Aug 23 01:55
oiaohmraid 5  and zfs does share some common traits.Aug 23 01:55
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: this failure mode is not among themAug 23 01:55
FurnaceBoybecause .. raid5 has no checksums.Aug 23 01:55
oiaohmraid5 is using a block hash to be able to repairself.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoydude, this is NOT a checksum.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoythat's parity.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoyparity is a form of redundancy.Aug 23 01:56
oiaohmI know I said common traits in what trigger the failure.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoyit's nothing to do with integrity.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoyparity provides NO integrity.Aug 23 01:56
oiaohmNot exact match in method.Aug 23 01:56
FurnaceBoytotally different concepts.Aug 23 01:56
oiaohmIf a raid 5 get 2 damaged blocks and out of 3 in a set it repairs wrong.Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoy...Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoyyes, of course.Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoyzfs cannot recover from that either.Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoy                                                  ???Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoy20:54:25       FurnaceBoyAug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoyFurnaceBoy | zfs does not share a failure mode with raid except "losing too many disks"Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoy^^Aug 23 01:57
FurnaceBoyof course zfs can't help you if you lose TOO MANY DISKSAug 23 01:58
FurnaceBoybut up until that point, it offers integrity, and raid offers none.Aug 23 01:58
oiaohmraid 5 attempts to repair if it thingk it still looks fine.Aug 23 01:58
FurnaceBoycannot.Aug 23 01:58
oiaohmI know it cannot repair.Aug 23 01:58
oiaohmBut it attempt it.Aug 23 01:58
FurnaceBoyit can't even know there was a problem.Aug 23 01:58
FurnaceBoyditto for RAID-1Aug 23 01:58
oiaohmzfs its a little to willing to attempt reapir.Aug 23 01:58
FurnaceBoy...Aug 23 01:59
oiaohmNot as bad as raid 5Aug 23 01:59
oiaohmWhat is insanely too willing.Aug 23 01:59
FurnaceBoywell, given that raid5 has no integrity feature, quite so.Aug 23 01:59
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 01:59
oiaohmI like the cluster filesystems idea that when repair there better be X number of copies in existance and they better match.Aug 23 02:00
oiaohmOtherwise bail out on the repair.Aug 23 02:00
FurnaceBoyzfs won't repair if the redundant data is bad.Aug 23 02:00
FurnaceBoye.g. from other side of mirrorAug 23 02:00
FurnaceBoybut it WILL tell you. RAID cannot.Aug 23 02:00
oiaohmFrom what I saw if zfs is down to 1 reduntant copy that it thinks is fine it will attempt repair.Aug 23 02:01
FurnaceBoycorrect.Aug 23 02:01
oiaohmI don't like that.Aug 23 02:01
FurnaceBoyand it can verify via checksum that the data is good.Aug 23 02:02
oiaohmI want to set a min number of reduntant copies.Aug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoythat can't be defeatedAug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: that makes no sense.Aug 23 02:02
oiaohmDon't say can't be defeated to me.Aug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: yuo seem to have a weird superstition about the checksum.Aug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: the checksum has no loophole.Aug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoythe only way it can lie is if there was a collision.Aug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: to say that's unlikely is an understatementAug 23 02:02
oiaohmThere was.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 02:02
FurnaceBoywell, if you say so.Aug 23 02:03
oiaohmI know by using the muti block for repair is slower.Aug 23 02:03
FurnaceBoyyou should tell Sun, it's probably the only one that's occurredAug 23 02:03
FurnaceBoythey might give you a plaqueAug 23 02:03
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: the point isn't that it's slower.Aug 23 02:03
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it does not protect against a collision (assuming yuor claim is true)Aug 23 02:03
oiaohmIe binary comparing the blocks that are bleived fine.Aug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoystill can't protect.Aug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoywant to know why?Aug 23 02:04
oiaohmThe odds lower.Aug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoynopeAug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoycan't workAug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoywant to know why?Aug 23 02:04
oiaohmI have seen equal blocked on cluster filesystems.Aug 23 02:04
FurnaceBoydo you want to know why storing one more checksum'd block can't protect you from a 'collision' ?Aug 23 02:05
FurnaceBoyit COULD protect but ONLY if the checksum algorithm was also distinct.Aug 23 02:05
oiaohmI am refering to duplication of the data blocks and compare data block to data block.Aug 23 02:05
FurnaceBoywon't workAug 23 02:05
FurnaceBoyhere's why...Aug 23 02:05
oiaohmIn a repair event.Aug 23 02:05
FurnaceBoynoAug 23 02:05
FurnaceBoywon't workAug 23 02:06
oiaohmchecksums has to match first.Aug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoyhehAug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoythat's WHY it doesn't work.Aug 23 02:06
oiaohmThen block has to match.Aug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoythink it throughAug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoynoAug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoyyou're missing the point hereAug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoythere IS a way to avoid this problem. but not the way you described.Aug 23 02:06
*Judas_PhD has quit (Quit: This is a quitting message)Aug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoythe way you described cannot work, because :Aug 23 02:06
FurnaceBoyblock A has checksum A. redundant block B has checksum A.Aug 23 02:07
FurnaceBoyboth check OK.Aug 23 02:07
FurnaceBoythe problem is (like ordinary RAID) you don't know WHICH is good.Aug 23 02:07
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 02:07
FurnaceBoyi.e. zfs with collision is no better than ordinary RAID.Aug 23 02:07
FurnaceBoythankfully, collisions are almost impossible.Aug 23 02:07
FurnaceBoycan you guess what the right solution is? (which isn't done, because it's not necessary)Aug 23 02:08
oiaohmCompare the data blocks if they don't match you have a checksum failure.Aug 23 02:08
FurnaceBoynope.Aug 23 02:08
FurnaceBoythat doesn't work.Aug 23 02:08
FurnaceBoyyou still don't know WHICH is correct.Aug 23 02:08
FurnaceBoysee?Aug 23 02:08
FurnaceBoyit's like an ordinary RAID mirror mismatch.Aug 23 02:09
FurnaceBoyexcept, extremely improbable.Aug 23 02:09
FurnaceBoythere's still a way to protect, but it's not worth doing.Aug 23 02:09
oiaohmprobale becomes more likely the data you store.Aug 23 02:09
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: comparing the blocks can tell you you HAVE a collision.Aug 23 02:10
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it can't tell you which one is good.Aug 23 02:10
FurnaceBoyso, anyway, the only way to mitigate that, is to store 2 different checksums.Aug 23 02:10
FurnaceBoywhich isn't done, because it's not worth it.Aug 23 02:10
oiaohmKnowing you have a collision you lock the data out until you can get another reference.Aug 23 02:10
FurnaceBoyi mean different algorithms.Aug 23 02:10
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: still doesn't work.Aug 23 02:11
oiaohmSo not leading to bad data being replacated and used.Aug 23 02:11
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: unless you mean picking the majority ruleAug 23 02:11
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: given the unlikelihood of a checksum collision this is pretty much a navel gazing exerciseAug 23 02:11
FurnaceBoyi might have to do something else for a while...Aug 23 02:11
oiaohmAnother reference being a human.Aug 23 02:11
FurnaceBoyick.Aug 23 02:12
oiaohmYes is rare should never happen.Aug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyi agree :)Aug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyand tbh i don't think it happened in your site.Aug 23 02:12
oiaohmPeta of data moving around possiblilty goes up.Aug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyhuman error is infinitely more probable.Aug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyno matter how much data is involved.Aug 23 02:12
oiaohmI mean per day.Aug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyhuman error is the main cause of data lossAug 23 02:12
FurnaceBoyalways will beAug 23 02:12
oiaohmYes is rare.Aug 23 02:13
oiaohmProblem with checksum collisions they can go unnoticed for a fair while.Aug 23 02:13
FurnaceBoyscrub.Aug 23 02:13
FurnaceBoywellAug 23 02:13
FurnaceBoyzfs has no answer to a collision.Aug 23 02:13
FurnaceBoybut then , who cares? RAID has no answer to 'nothing happening'.Aug 23 02:14
oiaohmcluster filesystems have a kind of an answer.Aug 23 02:14
FurnaceBoyand people still don't know raid is useless.Aug 23 02:14
oiaohmIe detect a collision has happen and go o crap call for help.Aug 23 02:14
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: sure.Aug 23 02:14
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: zfs designers made the calculationAug 23 02:14
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: it wasn't worth it. it's so far ahead of what else is around, it is an acceptable risk.Aug 23 02:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: which may be the same tradeoff raid designers made, way back when hehehehehehAug 23 02:15
oiaohmRemember some of these cluster filesystem reach accross internet.Aug 23 02:15
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: hence end to end.Aug 23 02:15
oiaohmAnd other uncontrolled areas.Aug 23 02:15
oiaohmand since you are playing were someone can mess with you.Aug 23 02:15
*amarsh04 installs gnash 0.8.8 from debian experimentalAug 23 02:15
*FurnaceBoy gnashes teethAug 23 02:16
oiaohmYou have to presume someone would go out of there way to create a checksum error.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 02:16
FurnaceBoyoiaohm: sureAug 23 02:16
FurnaceBoybut i don't think i have more time for thisAug 23 02:16
FurnaceBoyi feel i'm neglecting my other processesAug 23 02:16
FurnaceBoythx for the chatAug 23 02:17
oiaohmI still would like to see zfs with the feature to detect them.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 02:17
oiaohmIe optional.Aug 23 02:17
FurnaceBoystore 2 checksums w/ different algosAug 23 02:17
FurnaceBoythen it can even self heal themAug 23 02:17
FurnaceBoybut.. cost/benefit is probably very clearly not worth it.Aug 23 02:17
FurnaceBoyother factors dwarf this issueAug 23 02:17
oiaohmAgain it depends on what you are storing.  FurnaceBoyAug 23 02:17
oiaohmand where you are operating. FurnaceBoy.   Have a good day.Aug 23 02:18
-BNi/#techrights-[bkuhn/@bkuhn] It took me the rest of the day to complete the #Conservancy document round for the limited review. In end, I spent most of weekend on it.Aug 23 02:23
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] The crime of being female http://ur1.ca/17k5eAug 23 02:28
*oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Aug 23 02:33
amarsh04the gnash in debian experimental could play vp8 in 720p but not h264 in 720p on youtubeAug 23 02:34
-TRT/#techrights-[qu1j0t3] This home-made #guacamole is so good, my pants wanted some! And they magically tractor-beamed itAug 23 02:36
-TRT/#techrights-[einfeldt] RT @wseltzer: Why Did Mark Zuckerberg Make Himself Unblockable on Facebook? http://gawker.com/5619048/Aug 23 03:11
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Why Did Mark Zuckerberg Make Himself Unblockable on Facebook? .::. Size~: 76.9 KBAug 23 03:11
*FurnaceBoy has quit (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.3)Aug 23 03:26
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @snarf: Gnash 0.8.8 Released: 100% of all YouTube videos should work. http://gnashdev.org/?q=node/76 !fedora !fs !gnu !linux !ubuntuAug 23 03:28
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] The FreedomBox Project, inspired by Eben Moglen. Easy plug-in-and-forget freedom for everyone by 2015. www.reddit.com/tb/d47v2 !debianAug 23 03:28
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Gnash 0.8.8 Released | Gnash Project .::. Size~: 5.61 KBAug 23 03:28
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] Argentina calls for the use of open standards in public administration http://is.gd/exLzY !open !freesoftwareAug 23 03:33
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Google Traducere .::. Size~: 1.03 KBAug 23 03:33
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @hjk: !Gnash 0.8.8 out! Lighter, quicker, hw accelerated, 100% of #youtube works. Say FUCKOFF to #Adobe http://ur1.ca/17jj5Aug 23 03:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Gnash 0.8.8 Released | Gnash Project .::. Size~: 5.61 KBAug 23 03:38
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @openbytes: Wine 1.3.1 released! http://www.winehq.org/news/ !linux !fossAug 23 03:43
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @schestowitz: GNU/Linux Gaming on Triple-Head: 0 A.D Video http://ur1.ca/17j1b Nice demonstration for !GNU !Linux gamers #0adAug 23 03:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: WineHQ - News .::. Size~: 21.99 KBAug 23 03:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: GNU/Linux Gaming on Triple-Head: 0 A.D Video | Techrights .::. Size~: 89.46 KBAug 23 03:43
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Tensions Rise Between Gamers and Game Companies Over DRM http://bit.ly/aKue6sAug 23 03:45
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Games Story | Tensions Rise Between Gamers and Game Companies Over DRM .::. Size~: 48.75 KBAug 23 03:45
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @planetmozilla: Planet Mozilla Interns: Michael Kurze: Diaspora — Can the Social Graph be Our Web of Trust? http://bit.ly/bDRiCtAug 23 03:48
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] Important system tools http://is.gd/exNu8Aug 23 03:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: »Diaspora — Can the Social Graph be Our Web of Trust?« by Michael Kurze &mdash; thefoundation.de .::. Size~: 14.56 KBAug 23 03:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Important system tools «  Unixbhaskar's Blog .::. Size~: 90.65 KBAug 23 03:48
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] Thanks for the Memory http://is.gd/exNCoAug 23 03:53
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @WebUpd8: Remote Access in Linux http://bit.ly/aD7hfG !linuxAug 23 03:53
TechrightsBot-trTitle: The Blog of Helios: Thanks for the Memory .::. Size~: 70.55 KBAug 23 03:53
TechrightsBot-trTitle: KP Weblog: Remote Access in Linux .::. Size~: 16.62 KBAug 23 03:53
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @WebUpd8: Installing And Using !OpenVZ On !Ubuntu 10.04 http://bit.ly/978t7h !linuxAug 23 03:58
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Installing And Using OpenVZ On Ubuntu 10.04 | HowtoForge - Linux Howtos and Tutorials .::. Size~: 41.85 KBAug 23 03:58
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @gdf: The biggest #Android phone makers #HTC and #Samsung pay #Microsoft for #Linux Patents. Nobody cares?? !linux !gnu !FSF !AndroidAug 23 04:18
*sebsebseb has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)Aug 23 04:33
*Judas_PhD has quit (Quit: This is a quitting message)Aug 23 04:38
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] 23 August http://is.gd/exTfpAug 23 04:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: 23 august, tradarea Romaniei si victoria Omului Nou | Casa Regala a Romaniei .::. Size~: 137 KBAug 23 04:38
-TRT/#techrights-[linuxtoday] Linux distribution popularity trends plotted: Linuxtrends: "In order to get a sense of the popularity of various L... http://bit.ly/a7AB5sAug 23 04:40
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Linux Today - Linux distribution popularity trends plotted .::. Size~: 76.79 KBAug 23 04:40
-TRT/#techrights-[qu1j0t3] RT @JerryMander can't believe HuffPo is giving Frank fucking Luntz a format // 'board member 4 MouseMail & regular contributor to #Fox News'Aug 23 04:46
*oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrightsAug 23 04:54
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 05:25
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] ♺ @TheTechScribe: Finally got my copy of "Art of Community" back yesterday. It must be good, everyone wants to borrow it.Aug 23 05:46
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] ♺ @marksylvester: great review of the ART OF COMMUNITY http://snipurl.com/10ou4f - our webinar with him http://snipurl.com/10ou4vAug 23 05:47
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Review: The Art of Community - Jono Bacon | MIH SWAT .::. Size~: 20.69 KBAug 23 05:47
*OsamaK has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)Aug 23 05:48
*TechrightsBot-tr has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Aug 23 05:48
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] Folks, please help this terribly sad story better by pledging - http://is.gd/ey19p #noorramsayAug 23 05:59
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Germany To Grant Privacy At the Workplace http://bit.ly/aQLwSBAug 23 06:03
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @rsandu Argentina calls for the use of open standards in public administration http://is.gd/exLzY #open #freesoftwareAug 23 06:27
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] ♺ @gdf: The biggest #Android phone makers #HTC and #Samsung pay #Microsoft for #Linux Patents. Nobody cares?? #linux #gnu #FSF #AndroidAug 23 06:30
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Why Do Taxpayers-Funded Governments Make Microsoft Even Stronger? http://ur1.ca/17m6v #edgi #microsoft #dc #office #Aug 23 06:55
*oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Aug 23 07:01
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] Happy Onam! Celebrating another harvest festival with family and friends. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onam #fbAug 23 07:03
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Microsoft Approaches New Minimums and Loses Billions Online http://techrights.org/2010/08/23/microsoft-reaches-new-minimum/ #microsoftAug 23 07:16
-TRT/#techrights-[fosspatents] #boycottboy blamed me for quoting ZDNet here on Twitter about the plane crash. Now he just quoted a ZDNet analyst on MSFT financials. #crazyAug 23 07:30
*Judas_PhD has quit (Quit: This is a quitting message)Aug 23 07:32
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] ♻ @schestowitz Why Do Taxpayers-Funded Governments Make Microsoft Even Stronger? http://ur1.ca/17m6v #edgi #microsoft #dc #office #Aug 23 07:33
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] ♻ @schestowitz ♺ @gdf: The biggest #Android phone makers #HTC and #Samsung pay #Microsoft for #Linux Patents. Nobody cares?? !linux !gnuAug 23 07:33
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Apple Under Investigation for Competition Abuses in EU and US; Should Apple be Allowed to Take Over X Server? http://ur1.ca/17mj2 #xorgAug 23 07:42
schestowitzFlorian is aligning with the Mono camp nowAug 23 07:43
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 07:44
*Judas_PhD has quit (Client Quit)Aug 23 07:44
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 07:50
*Judas_PhD has quit (Client Quit)Aug 23 07:50
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] I would give it #insightful - even if I believe #ORCL's actions are wrong. http://is.gd/eyaibAug 23 07:52
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @fosspatents your market value as a #lobbyist will decline if you sidle with the #mono people (pro- #microsoft camp) quite so openlyAug 23 07:56
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Is #Silverlight Unofficially Dead Now? http://ur1.ca/17mou #darkweb #ironruby #ironpython #mono #moonlight #novell #embraceandextend #failAug 23 08:04
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Microsoft’s Zune and Vista Phone 7 Will End Up Just Like KIN http://ur1.ca/17mys #mobile #kin #disasterAug 23 08:38
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] "Windows Mobile Reality Log" now subdivided by months for the year of 2010 http://ur1.ca/17mzl #techrightsAug 23 08:41
-BNi/#techrights-[schestowitz/@schestowitz] "Windows Mobile Reality Log" now subdivided by months for the year of 2010 http://ur1.ca/17mzl !techrightsAug 23 08:43
schestowitz"Aug 23 08:47
schestowitzHere is a relevant quote for the intel article the other day.  It mightAug 23 08:47
schestowitzfit better in with one you are writing now than for me to post it as aAug 23 08:47
schestowitzcomment.  Though if that is better, it can be done.Aug 23 08:47
schestowitz"There are simply too many folks at Intel who use/loveAug 23 08:47
schestowitzthe [Linux] stuff and want to improve it.  We can *not* stopAug 23 08:47
schestowitztrying to win this project."Aug 23 08:47
schestowitz      p3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 7022.Aug 23 08:47
schestowitzAug 23 08:47
schestowitzhttp://groklaw.net/pdf/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/7000/PX07022.pdfAug 23 08:47
schestowitz"Aug 23 08:47
*squarepeg has quit (*.net *.split)Aug 23 08:49
*squarepeg (~Balzac@173-203-89-104.static.cloud-ips.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 09:00
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Non-Profit Space Rocket Launching In a Week http://bit.ly/dijvjWAug 23 09:09
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Techrights Announces TechCHOICES Initiative: Get Your #Vista7 Refund and Show the World How to Do It http://ur1.ca/17ncm #gnu #linuxAug 23 09:34
-BNi/#techrights-[schestowitz/@schestowitz] !Techrights Announces TechCHOICES Initiative: Get Your #Vista7 Refund and Show the World How to Do It http://ur1.ca/17ncm !gnu !linuxAug 23 09:38
*oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrightsAug 23 09:51
oiaohmhttp://lkml.org/lkml/2010/8/22/105 Pitty the speed up stuff has not landed.  And boy did Linus laydown the law over fanotify.Aug 23 09:59
schestowitzrc2...Aug 23 10:05
oiaohmrc1 went under the rador of the media.Aug 23 10:08
oiaohmThe oracle google mess flooded the press at the time.Aug 23 10:08
oiaohmAlso rc2 the merge window for new features are fully closed.  schestowitzAug 23 10:09
schestowitzyeah, not heard of rc1Aug 23 10:09
schestowitzPhoronic tooAug 23 10:09
schestowitz*nixAug 23 10:09
oiaohmPhoronix did put up a rc1 articaleAug 23 10:10
oiaohmAgain with all the goings on.Aug 23 10:10
oiaohmWe are getting back to business as normal.  Where the chips land.Aug 23 10:10
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Microsoft and #Yahoo Continue to Lose to #Google , Microsoft Resorts to Regulators to Complain About “Monopoly” http://ur1.ca/17nosAug 23 10:10
oiaohmI really want to try out fanotify with one of the features ibm guys described.Aug 23 10:13
oiaohmIe access a zero sized file have application pause as the full sized file get put in its place.Aug 23 10:13
oiaohmYes fanotify allows a lot of new weird and strange features to come to Linux.Aug 23 10:14
schestowitzTurns out the police here uses UNIXAug 23 10:21
schestowitz"It would be a natural assumption since they have stayed with a Unix system."Aug 23 10:21
schestowitzWhat does .au useAug 23 10:21
*TechrightsBot-tr (~b0t@216.105.40.114) has joined #techrightsAug 23 10:21
TechrightsBot-trHello World!Aug 23 10:21
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Main Page - Techrights .::. Size~: 36.9 KBAug 23 10:21
oiaohmA mixture schestowitzAug 23 10:23
oiaohmThe datarecovery guys mostly use Linux.Aug 23 10:24
oiaohmYou cannot afford to infect evidence.Aug 23 10:24
schestowitz"I hope this helps and an article about how much of the tax payers money is spent on Microsoft licensing I think is certainly in the public interest."Aug 23 10:25
schestowitzI got some leaksAug 23 10:25
schestowitzSo I'm working on an articleAug 23 10:25
schestowitzoiaohm: does .au make this info public?Aug 23 10:25
schestowitzIn the UK there's a wiki with info about itAug 23 10:25
oiaohmNop schestowitzAug 23 10:25
oiaohmRemember as well each Australian state has there own independant police networks.  schestowitzAug 23 10:27
cubevectorUnix? Which version do they use?Aug 23 10:28
oiaohmAnd the fed does and special branches also have there own independant systems.Aug 23 10:28
oiaohmYes crimes get got away with at time due to no unified system.Aug 23 10:28
cubevectorthere's no perfect systemAug 23 10:35
cubevectormainly since PC hardware is so diversifiedAug 23 10:35
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] Entering the world of DSLR with a used Olympus E420 soonish ...Aug 23 10:35
cubevectorit used to be the manufacturer of the computer also made the OSAug 23 10:36
cubevectornow we have "computer churn"Aug 23 10:36
cubevectorbut with Linux/BSD etc you can always support even old versionsAug 23 10:37
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] British Police Can Improve Security by Dumping #Microsoft http://ur1.ca/17o22 #windows #pnc #tax #ukAug 23 10:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: British Police Can Improve Security by Dumping Microsoft | Techrights .::. Size~: 95.25 KBAug 23 10:43
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] So Much For Transparency: Latest ACTA Draft Won't Be Released http://dlvr.it/47qHGAug 23 10:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: So Much For Transparency: Latest ACTA Draft Won't Be Released | Techdirt .::. Size~: 21.31 KBAug 23 10:44
cubevectorfor example, it really wasn't too difficult to get BL3 (2.2 Linux version) to work on IBM eduquest 35Aug 23 10:45
cubevectorI had no documentation for itAug 23 10:46
cubevectorby looking at the chips on the board, I slowly write my own docsAug 23 10:47
cubevectorwas it as good as say using an Amiga? Yes and noAug 23 10:51
cubevectorold DOS apps save the old IBM'sAug 23 10:52
-BNi/#techrights-[silner/@silner] Never seen a version of !gwibber that could update selectable pages @Shark_Bone - re » http://tinyurl.com/33lw4u9 - Or any other app do thatAug 23 11:23
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Twitter / Devon Kelley: @Gwibber Can gwibber be ti ... .::. Size~: 9.05 KBAug 23 11:23
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Joke of the Day: UAE Turns to Microsoft to “Strengthen the Security of Information Systems and Networks” http://ur1.ca/17ognAug 23 11:26
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Bizarre Story of the Day: United Arab Emirates (UAE) Turns to Microsoft to “Strengthen the Security of Information Systems and Networks” | Techrights .::. Size~: 99.7 KBAug 23 11:26
cubevectorstrength it from what?Aug 23 11:34
cubevectorwhat were they using before?Aug 23 11:34
*malacoda (~malacoda@cpe-68-206-255-156.satx.res.rr.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 11:37
-TRT/#techrights-[anivar] Starting to delhi to partipate in no #uid campaign public meeting on 25th at constistution club.Aug 23 11:37
-BNi/#techrights-[silner/@silner] I've just created hours work for myself with a just few minutes carelessness. Damn and Double Damn!Aug 23 11:38
*malacoda has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Aug 23 11:43
-BNi/#techrights-[silner/@silner] One day, I'm going to save myself hours of work with a few minutes of genius.Aug 23 11:48
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Latest Signs That #Xbox360 is a Dying Product, Ignored Even by Game Developers, Banned in China http://ur1.ca/17otyAug 23 12:15
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Latest Signs That Xbox 360 is a Dying Product, Ignored Even by Game Developers, Banned in China | Techrights .::. Size~: 99.16 KBAug 23 12:15
schestowitzhttp://twitter.com/lightweight/statuses/21901312484 "That dog won't hunt: the life and times of MS Silverlight... :) http://is.gd/eypOP great if it's true (don't see why not)."Aug 23 12:18
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Twitter / Dave Lane: That dog won't hunt: the l ... .::. Size~: 9.06 KBAug 23 12:18
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Is Silverlight Unofficially Dead Now? | Techrights .::. Size~: 95.4 KBAug 23 12:18
oiaohmFinal sign of silverlight dead would be IE directly supporting webm.Aug 23 12:22
*balrog has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)Aug 23 12:40
-TRT/#techrights-[wikileaks] RT @dontgetfooled: Al Jazeera grills Swedish prosecutor over "defamation" of Julian Assange http://bit.ly/auqGcqAug 23 12:40
TechrightsBot-trTitle: YouTube- Assange arrest warrant 'no mistake' .::. Size~: 94.04 KBAug 23 12:40
*balrog (~balrog@pool-173-59-73-90.phlapa.east.verizon.net) has joined #techrightsAug 23 12:41
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Dear Hans Pandeya: Buying A Website Involves More Than Just Saying You're Going To Buy It... http://dlvr.it/4823TAug 23 12:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Dear Hans Pandeya: Buying A Website Involves More Than Just Saying You're Going To Buy It... | Techdirt .::. Size~: 25.83 KBAug 23 12:50
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] National Park Service Says Tech Is Enabling Stupidity http://bit.ly/d6RJ0lAug 23 12:57
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Mobile Story | National Park Service Says Tech Is Enabling Stupidity .::. Size~: 47.88 KBAug 23 12:57
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] The judges may decide on a live performance, but the public pay to vote on what comes out of their TV http://bbc.in/9levyYAug 23 13:14
TechrightsBot-trTitle: BBC News - X Factor admits to vocal tweaks .::. Size~: 52.3 KBAug 23 13:14
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @thistleweb The judges may decide on a live performance, but the public pay to vote on what comes out of their TV http://bbc.in/9levyYAug 23 13:16
TechrightsBot-trTitle: BBC News - X Factor admits to vocal tweaks .::. Size~: 52.24 KBAug 23 13:16
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @wikileaks RT @dontgetfooled: Al Jazeera grills Swedish prosecutor over "defamation" of Julian Assange http://bit.ly/auqGcqAug 23 13:17
TechrightsBot-trTitle: YouTube- Assange arrest warrant 'no mistake' .::. Size~: 93.45 KBAug 23 13:17
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] no thanks.Aug 23 13:18
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] How many have been killed by UK forces? Repeat after me children 'this is called collateral damage' http://bbc.in/aheNOsAug 23 13:18
TechrightsBot-trTitle: BBC News - Liam Fox defends call for ban of Medal of Honor game .::. Size~: 52.3 KBAug 23 13:18
*OsamaK (~Osama@fsf/member/osamak) has joined #techrightsAug 23 13:19
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Gates Foundation Joins Microsoft and Attacks Free Software in Greece http://ur1.ca/17pb7 #pr #library #windows #imperialismAug 23 13:24
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Gates Foundation Joins Microsoft and Attacks Free Software in Greece | Techrights .::. Size~: 110.45 KBAug 23 13:24
-BNi/#techrights-[bkuhn/@bkuhn] Starting day w/ !coffee & conf call to explain to !GPL violators compliance is easy if they'd just make their source releases compilable.Aug 23 13:38
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Steam Not Coming To Linux http://bit.ly/9BViqPAug 23 13:57
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Games Story | Steam Not Coming To Linux .::. Size~: 49.36 KBAug 23 13:57
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Bill Gates Dumps His Microsoft Shares and Buys Shares Of Goldman Sachs, Monsanto, and Exxon Mobil http://ur1.ca/17pl5 #gmoAug 23 14:01
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Bill Gates Dumps His Microsoft Shares and Buys Shares Of Goldman Sachs, Monsanto, and Exxon Mobil | Techrights .::. Size~: 103.37 KBAug 23 14:01
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] ♺ @ushahidi: Our Co-founder David Kobia (@dkobia) is one of ‘Technology Review's – Innovators Under 35′ - http://bit.ly/97Oit0Aug 23 14:03
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Technology Review India: TR35 .::. Size~: 28.42 KBAug 23 14:03
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] #Ubuntu also plans to drop SPARC and IA64 (Itanium) support as noone cares in #UbuntuWorld - http://is.gd/eyGG8Aug 23 14:09
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] BTW - seems #Ubuntu technical-board ML has some probs with spam - http://is.gd/eyGQ5 Maybe they need some SpamAssassin love?Aug 23 14:10
TechrightsBot-trTitle: The technical-board August 2010 Archive by thread .::. Size~: 18.61 KBAug 23 14:10
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] New Blog Post | Shock & Awe http://bit.ly/b0273pAug 23 14:24
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Shock & Awe | The Digital Prism .::. Size~: 14.52 KBAug 23 14:24
-TRT/#techrights-[ffii] RAND snake oil does not pollute open source waters? http://www.talkstandards.com/standards-and-oss/ #lobbyAug 23 14:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Standards and OSS | Talkstandards .::. Size~: 12.87 KBAug 23 14:38
*gnufreex (~quassel@77-46-199-117.dynamic.isp.telekom.rs) has joined #techrightsAug 23 14:42
schestowitzwb, gnufreexAug 23 14:42
gnufreexschestowitz: HiAug 23 14:42
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @ffii can you shed light on how exactly Microsoft controls talkstandards.com ? #rand #lobby #swpatsAug 23 14:44
-TRT/#techrights-[ffii] @schestowitz No, of course not. Why don't you just phone Oliver Bell? http://www.talkstandards.com/contact/Aug 23 14:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Contact | Talkstandards .::. Size~: 13.45 KBAug 23 14:50
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Philly Requiring Bloggers To Pay $300 http://bit.ly/awN07dAug 23 14:51
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Philly Requiring Bloggers To Pay $300 .::. Size~: 49.07 KBAug 23 14:51
*ThistleWeb (~gordon@unaffiliated/thistleweb) has joined #techrightsAug 23 14:53
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Microsoft and #Facebook Share Data, Advertisements, and Bad Practices http://ur1.ca/17px7 #privacy #fbAug 23 14:54
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Microsoft and Facebook Share Data, Advertisements, and Bad Practices | Techrights .::. Size~: 100.07 KBAug 23 14:54
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @ffii I know about Blind and Bell there (I wrote about that too), but anything else? It would be nice to have a smoking pistol there.Aug 23 14:55
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @ffii LOL, I've just noticed Jonathan Zuck there too. Maybe he looks after the buffetAug 23 14:56
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Isn't a smoking gun just badly disposed of evidence? Fire put out before the gun can meltAug 23 14:57
oiaohmhttp://0pointer.de/blog/projects/systemd-update.html   These are impressive changes.that will most likely spreed between distributionsAug 23 15:07
TechrightsBot-trTitle: TBFKAYIBYNYAAYB    .::. Size~: 16.36 KBAug 23 15:07
-TRT/#techrights-[anivar] Electronic Voting Researcher Arrested In India. Exposing security holes of state is a crime? Then what about #uid holes http://bit.ly/dzjIjjAug 23 15:08
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Electronic Voting Researcher Arrested In India .::. Size~: 153.81 KBAug 23 15:08
*oiaohm has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)Aug 23 15:15
-TRT/#techrights-[anivar] RT @vvcrishna: http://bit.ly/b4uqeD 50 people came for a lively interaction on Aadhaar, Tuesday 17 Aug... #uid #privacy #indiaAug 23 15:15
TechrightsBot-trTitle: At the Foundation  talking with people « Fool On The Hill .::. Size~: 27.95 KBAug 23 15:15
*OsamaK has quit (Quit: Leaving)Aug 23 15:18
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @anivar EVoting Researcher Arrested In India.Exposing security holes of state is a crime? Then what about #uid holes http://bit.ly/dzjIjjAug 23 15:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Electronic Voting Researcher Arrested In India .::. Size~: 154.55 KBAug 23 15:21
gnufreexIs there any news on Novell sale?Aug 23 15:21
gnufreexI can't find anything.Aug 23 15:21
schestowitzNopeAug 23 15:24
schestowitzWait for Thuirs.Aug 23 15:24
-TRT/#techrights-[ffii] @schestowitz What is your concern with the site except that you oppose rand?Aug 23 15:25
schestowitzThat's why Novell announced resultsAug 23 15:25
schestowitz**ces  **thursAug 23 15:25
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @ffii it's @zoobab who says it's a Microsoft lobbyist (the site)Aug 23 15:26
*ronald__ (185ba9f6@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.91.169.246) has joined #techrightsAug 23 15:27
-TRT/#techrights-[ffii] @schestowitz Do you defend the principle that non-domestic corporations should keep a low profile and fully disclose their support?Aug 23 15:28
ronald__looks like zeitgeist developers are working with MONO nowAug 23 15:28
ronald__it's infecting everythingAug 23 15:28
ronald__http://seilo.geekyogre.com/2010/08/help-with-mono-for-zeitgeist/Aug 23 15:30
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Seilo @ Geeky Ogre  » Blog Archive   » Help with Mono for Zeitgeist .::. Size~: 23.43 KBAug 23 15:30
ronald__I thought you guys were making progress on destroying MONO's reputationAug 23 15:31
ronald__but people keep using it more and moreAug 23 15:31
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Oracles boss should be called Lawsuit Larry, instead of Leasure Suit LarryAug 23 15:31
schestowitzHiAug 23 15:32
ronald__hi schestowitzAug 23 15:32
schestowitzYeahAug 23 15:32
schestowitzZeitgeist...Aug 23 15:32
schestowitzIt has different front endsAug 23 15:32
schestowitzSome suggested Mono for it last yearAug 23 15:32
ThistleWebwell Oracle helped derail that a tad by sueing over Java, it's now a known riskAug 23 15:32
schestowitzhttp://techrights.org/2009/06/03/developers-rejecting-mono/Aug 23 15:32
TechrightsBot-trTitle: GNOME Zeitgeist Decides Not to Go with Mono | Techrights .::. Size~: 99.21 KBAug 23 15:32
ronald__zeitgeist used to be 100% pythonAug 23 15:32
schestowitzI thought they gave up o MonoAug 23 15:32
schestowitzMaybe back endAug 23 15:33
schestowitzThistleWeb: did you see the picture I made?Aug 23 15:33
schestowitzMinceR said Lawsuit LarryAug 23 15:33
ThistleWebpossiblyAug 23 15:33
schestowitzAnd amarsh04 made the picture euggestionAug 23 15:33
ThistleWebyeah I thought I'd heard it beforeAug 23 15:33
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] The #Microsoft Fox Watches the World Wide Hen http://ur1.ca/17q6j #w3c #swpats #spin #google #svg #vml #ooxml #odfAug 23 15:33
schestowitzThistleWeb: http://techrights.org/2010/08/14/leisure-suit-larry-ellison/Aug 23 15:34
schestowitzSee pictureAug 23 15:34
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 23 15:34
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Caricature: Law Suit Larry | Techrights .::. Size~: 95.08 KBAug 23 15:34
ThistleWebI remember reading previews of the game leasure suit larry yrs ago and thinking it sounded cool, but never got round to trying itAug 23 15:34
ThistleWeblolAug 23 15:35
ronald__can you guys step up the attacks on MONO? We need to destroy it before it spreads more than it already isAug 23 15:36
gnufreex<ronald__> I thought you guys were making progress on destroying MONO's reputationAug 23 15:36
gnufreexOracle and Google helped FUD Java. Fucking De Icaza spindoctor spined lawsuit to his advantage.Aug 23 15:36
ronald__gnufreex: people still listen to him?Aug 23 15:36
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Look For AI, Not Aliens http://bit.ly/aWk7fGAug 23 15:36
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Science Story | Look For AI, Not Aliens .::. Size~: 48.06 KBAug 23 15:36
ronald__don't you guys have infinitely more credibility than he does?Aug 23 15:37
gnufreexUbuntu fanboys listen him. There is strong Mono movement in Ubuntu.Aug 23 15:37
ronald__why do they not listen to you guys?Aug 23 15:37
schestowitzronald__: I write about itAug 23 15:38
schestowitzAs we speakAug 23 15:38
schestowitzAny other info?Aug 23 15:38
gnufreexronald__ Because Ubuntu forums admins and Linusux crowd are smearing against Techrights.Aug 23 15:38
ronald__can you link me to a thread? maybe I can help you fight them and expose them for the trolls they areAug 23 15:38
schestowitzgnufreex: in Ubuntu FORUMS, not UbuntuAug 23 15:39
schestowitzCanonical's CTO dislikes MonoAug 23 15:39
ronald__why does he allow MONO then?Aug 23 15:39
schestowitzronald__: it would be useful to raise with UF mods the fact that they got infiltratedAug 23 15:39
ronald__are you sure he dislikes it?Aug 23 15:39
gnufreexschestowitz: Yes, but all starts with forums. Get them while they are young.Aug 23 15:39
schestowitzBy the anti-Linux people (linsu***.org for example)Aug 23 15:39
schestowitzMaybe they really think there's genuine support for Microsoft staff liike MiguelAug 23 15:40
schestowitzronald__: he said in an interview it's a problem because of MicrosoftAug 23 15:40
ronald__ok, but he's not doing anything about the problemAug 23 15:41
ronald__it just keeps getting worse like a gangrenous woundAug 23 15:41
gnufreexschestowitz: If they get prejudices over UF, while they are newbies, they will be de Icaza followers later and they wont listen to FSF, or Techrights, or anyone elsem.Aug 23 15:41
gnufreex*elseAug 23 15:41
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Let the corruption.....uhm, I mean lobbying begin, queue another fortune of tax payers money about to be wasted http://bbc.in/czO8EOAug 23 15:42
TechrightsBot-trTitle: BBC Sport - Football - World Cup 2018 bid assessors visit England .::. Size~: 54.07 KBAug 23 15:42
ronald__can't you expose icaza for his dirty tricks in brainwashing UF folks?Aug 23 15:42
ronald__manipulating them into becomming his sheeple?Aug 23 15:42
ronald__how can people be so stupid?Aug 23 15:44
ronald__how do they not see that MONO is the enemy?Aug 23 15:45
gnufreexronald__: Ubuntu users are typicaly uninformed, you can implant any ideology to themAug 23 15:45
ronald__how can they possibly think that icaza is a good guy?Aug 23 15:45
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Don't want the expiry date on an image to be honoured? I put up an image with a 1 day on the 7th Aug, it's still up http://bit.ly/a3MztHAug 23 15:46
TechrightsBot-trTitle: ImgBin.Org: The #1 site for free, fast image hosting .::. Size~: 9.79 KBAug 23 15:46
ronald__gnufreex: can you give me some links that I can use as ammunition when I report this crazyness?Aug 23 15:46
gnufreexIt is psychology of the crowd. You get 10 linsuxers repeathing one ideology, and rest will listen. You just need to get mods on your side, which linusuxers did.Aug 23 15:46
ronald__are ubuntu users really that gullible?Aug 23 15:47
gnufreexronald__: I left UF and Lauchpad forever a month ago. But you can look for Linusux.org group on Ubuntu forums, and they look what they pose. Also, users zekopeko and gnomeuser are most rabid Microsoft apologists and Mono fanboysAug 23 15:48
gnufreexThey are outside of Linsux groupAug 23 15:48
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] آر تي @torproject Tor Browser Bundle 1.0.10 for GNU/Linux released: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-browser-bundle-1010-gnulinux-re ...Aug 23 15:48
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] Wrote in #Arabic about the importance of privacy. http://osamak.wordpress.com/2010/08/23/privay-is-important/ !arabsAug 23 15:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Error processing the URL: HTTP/1.1 404 Not Found .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 23 15:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: الخصوصية هامة « مدونة أسامة خالد .::. Size~: 16.03 KBAug 23 15:48
gnufreex pose / postAug 23 15:49
gnufreexalso, main admin kiwinz is very rabid Mac fanboy.Aug 23 15:49
gnufreexJust read some of posts those guys post. And you will see the gist.Aug 23 15:49
ronald__can we smear him to get him kicked out of ubuntu forum mod status?Aug 23 15:50
ronald__expose himAug 23 15:50
ronald__I meanAug 23 15:50
ronald__is he in any way connected to MONO outside UF?Aug 23 15:51
ronald__I'mn so pissed off my body is shakingAug 23 15:52
gnufreexKiwinz is not conected to Mono IMHO. He is just clueless how FOSS works, and he thinks FSF are zealots, and has similar prejudicesAug 23 15:52
ronald__how did they ever let him be a mod?Aug 23 15:52
gnufreexHe is ex corporate dudeAug 23 15:52
gnufreexHe was CIO of some big New Zealand companyAug 23 15:53
gnufreexHe wrote about thatAug 23 15:53
ronald__I bet if we follow the money he was a Microsoft shillAug 23 15:53
gnufreexI gues he just bought Linsux ideology because he is clueless about FOSS.Aug 23 15:53
gnufreexAnd Linsux crowd are pretty persuasive.Aug 23 15:54
ronald__need to put an end to thatAug 23 15:54
ronald__expose them as trollsAug 23 15:54
gnufreexThey constantly talk about how Linux has unstable API and how "freetards" wont make stable apiAug 23 15:54
-TRT/#techrights-[zoobab] Can the EPO be declared illegal due to its restrictive approach to languages? I want your opinion.Aug 23 15:54
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] Morning all! Your week's off to a good start?Aug 23 15:54
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Mono in #GNOME Zeitgeist http://ur1.ca/17qcs Seif Lotfy inquires about more #Mono dependency #novell #dotnetAug 23 15:54
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Mono in GNOME Zeitgeist | Techrights .::. Size~: 93.37 KBAug 23 15:55
ronald__techrights needs to fight harder agaionst people like themAug 23 15:55
gnufreexBecause they want opensource driversAug 23 15:55
ronald__they cannot be allowed to influence peopleAug 23 15:55
ronald__this is what happens when they are allowed to continueAug 23 15:55
ThistleWebthe problem with trolls is that they are fueled by conflict, if you oppose them they love itAug 23 15:55
ThistleWebthey will use it, turn it into an even bigger argument then blame you for the hateAug 23 15:55
ronald__how do we fight them then?Aug 23 15:55
ThistleWebpaint themselves as the victim / messengerAug 23 15:55
gnufreexThistleWeb: Exactly!Aug 23 15:56
gnufreexThistleWeb: That is exactly how Linsux crowd works.Aug 23 15:56
ThistleWebI did note the correction int he language too, smear is bad, but outing them is fineAug 23 15:57
-TRT/#techrights-[einfeldt] RT @grantbow: Thank you @MarkDude for posting your @LinuxPicnic photo album. http://is.gd/exMtuAug 23 15:57
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Login | Facebook .::. Size~: 13.48 KBAug 23 15:57
ronald__can we beat them at their own game?Aug 23 15:57
ronald__by saying we're the victems?Aug 23 15:57
ThistleWebhe said, she saidAug 23 15:57
ronald__victimsAug 23 15:57
ronald__so how?Aug 23 15:57
ThistleWebit just turns into 2 sides shouting at each other and changing nothing, other than turning off potential peopleAug 23 15:57
-TRT/#techrights-[einfeldt] RT @pleia2: New blog post "Ubuntu California at Picn*x 19" http://princessleia.com/journal/?p=3362Aug 23 15:57
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Ubuntu California at Picn*x 19  pleia2's blog .::. Size~: 26.07 KBAug 23 15:58
gnufreexronald__: I tried when I was on UF. But mods were on their sides, so I got some infractions and gave up.Aug 23 15:58
ronald__they did that to neighborlee tooAug 23 15:58
ronald__I saw that like last yearAug 23 15:58
ThistleWebif you walk into an IRC channel and there's an argument in progress....who is to blame? Most dont care, they just see an argumentAug 23 15:58
ronald__censored himAug 23 15:58
ronald__what is the best strategy?Aug 23 15:59
gnufreexronald__: I gave up because I couldn't make strategy that works.Aug 23 16:00
gnufreexronald__: I think it is lost cause by now.Aug 23 16:00
ThistleWebby being patient, calm, logical and avoiding making it personalAug 23 16:00
gnufreexThistleWeb: It doesn't work. You get atacked by 10 peopleAug 23 16:01
gnufreexAnd they make it personalAug 23 16:01
ThistleWebso did GhandiAug 23 16:01
ThistleWebso you have to respond in kind? that's playing into their handsAug 23 16:01
ronald__thistleweb: ppl always saying BN/TR made it personalAug 23 16:02
ronald__and always pointing to mark finkAug 23 16:02
ThistleWebif you resist that, any undecided people who read it, read it as them bullying you, giving you the victim statusAug 23 16:02
ronald__that's what they always do to meAug 23 16:02
ronald__and they point at twitter's sockpuppet pageAug 23 16:02
ThistleWebso let them, are you Mark Fink?Aug 23 16:03
ronald__noAug 23 16:03
ronald__but they point out how BN made it personalAug 23 16:03
ronald__and say BN are the trollsAug 23 16:03
ThistleWebthen why should his behaviour tar you?Aug 23 16:03
ronald__and people who don't know believe themAug 23 16:03
ronald__and group me in with "BN trolls"Aug 23 16:03
ronald__just cuz I say the same things you guys sayAug 23 16:03
ThistleWebif you make it personal then they will succeed in grouping youAug 23 16:03
ronald__so impossible to argue with themAug 23 16:04
ThistleWebwe're all responsible for our own actionsAug 23 16:04
ronald__need to start gettimng them banned from forumsAug 23 16:04
ThistleWebwe're not responsible for the actions of othersAug 23 16:04
ronald__so we can winAug 23 16:04
ronald__it's the only wayAug 23 16:05
ThistleWebyou won't if you think like them and play into their handsAug 23 16:05
ThistleWebbut good luck on avoiding the heart attacksAug 23 16:05
gnufreexhttp://ubuntuforums.org/group.php?groupid=685Aug 23 16:06
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Ubuntu Forums - Linsux.org UF Group .::. Size~: 27.55 KBAug 23 16:06
gnufreexhttp://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=165058Aug 23 16:06
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Ubuntu Forums - View Profile: Frak .::. Size~: 53.1 KBAug 23 16:06
gnufreexNote that not all are in Linsux groupAug 23 16:06
gnufreexAnd not all in Linsux.org grup are exactly bad guys. It is very complicatedAug 23 16:07
ronald__thxAug 23 16:07
gnufreexSome only hate Ubuntu.Aug 23 16:07
gnufreexNot whole Linux.Aug 23 16:07
ronald__now I know who to targetAug 23 16:07
gnufreexSome hate all free softwareAug 23 16:08
gnufreexSome hate GPLAug 23 16:08
gnufreexOnly common denominator is hateAug 23 16:08
ThistleWebhate is a strong wordAug 23 16:08
ronald__I bet if schestowitz does some diggingAug 23 16:08
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] RT @sniffit i'd like to thank mr @harishpillay for recommending the book Code Reading: An Open Source Perspective. it taught me how to r ...Aug 23 16:08
ronald__he'll find they are all shillsAug 23 16:08
ThistleWebevil is also a word steeped in religion, so don't use it and then complain about being painted in religious termsAug 23 16:09
ronald__paid to destroy linux reputationsAug 23 16:09
gnufreexronald__: problem is that they are entrenched by now.Aug 23 16:09
ronald__I'm worried that canonical and red hat will hire ex-mono people once novell is destroyedAug 23 16:09
gnufreexIf you come and writte something that oposes their views, then you are a trollAug 23 16:09
ronald__then this will be even worseAug 23 16:09
ronald__red hat tried to hire miguel de icaza a long time agoAug 23 16:10
ronald__in like 1997 or 98 or somethingAug 23 16:10
ronald__someone told meAug 23 16:10
gnufreex<ronald__> red hat tried to hire miguel de icaza a long time agoAug 23 16:10
gnufreexWTF?Aug 23 16:10
ronald__but he started his own companyAug 23 16:10
gnufreexOh, but they didn't know that hi is a troll then.Aug 23 16:10
ThistleWebso in your measured opinion, will mono destroy linux?Aug 23 16:10
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Which Linux is the most popular Linux? http://bit.ly/bPCBBD It all depends on how you look at it. #LinuxAug 23 16:10
-TRT/#techrights-[zoobab] Bristows: Advocate General says "non" to the Community Patent and a European Patents Court (objections are weak, UPLS will be rewritten)Aug 23 16:10
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Which Linux is the most popular Linux? - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 62.09 KBAug 23 16:11
gnufreexhi- heAug 23 16:11
ronald__ThistleWeb: yesAug 23 16:11
ThistleWebwrong, but okAug 23 16:11
ronald__schestowitz says so tooAug 23 16:11
ronald__that's why so important to oppose itAug 23 16:11
ronald__and squash it before it gets any influenceAug 23 16:11
ronald__like a diseaseAug 23 16:12
ThistleWebronald__: glad to see you thinking for yourselfAug 23 16:12
ronald__thanksAug 23 16:12
ThistleWebglad to see you take a measured approachAug 23 16:12
ronald__too bad MONO people don'tAug 23 16:12
ThistleWebsorry, I forgot the </sarcasm> tag on those 2Aug 23 16:12
ronald__that's why they are so stupidAug 23 16:12
ronald__don't think for themselfsAug 23 16:12
ronald__themselvesAug 23 16:12
-TRT/#techrights-[zoobab] Bristows: Advocate General says "non" to the Community Patent and a European Patents Court (UPLS will be rewritten) http://ur1.ca/17qf7Aug 23 16:13
ronald__WTF? are you pissing on me?Aug 23 16:13
TechrightsBot-trTitle: News and events - Press releases - Advocate General says "non" to the Community Patent and a European Patents Court - Bristows - Award Winning lawyers .::. Size~: 15.35 KBAug 23 16:13
ThistleWebif MS pull out the lawsuits it will cause a lot of disruption, a few distros may not survive but linux will go on just as it ever did, without mono, as those who have just dabled with it, pull it outAug 23 16:13
ronald__what do YOU think about MONO?Aug 23 16:13
ThistleWebit will not destroy linuxAug 23 16:13
ThistleWeband given it's a likely risk, compared to an actual risk (java) I can see the differenceAug 23 16:14
ronald__that's bad enoughAug 23 16:14
ThistleWebI never asked that, I asked if you thought it would destroy linuxAug 23 16:14
ThistleWebit's about painting it as extremeAug 23 16:14
ThistleWebwhich it's notAug 23 16:14
ThistleWebyes it's a risk, but it's not a fatal riskAug 23 16:14
ronald__icaza is trying to make it so it will destroy linuxAug 23 16:15
ronald__that is all I need to knowAug 23 16:15
gnufreexThirstleWeb: I think Mono destroys whole free software idea because it generaly atracts people who are oposed to that idea. Any mono proponent I met so far is rabid FSF hater, and usualy GPL hater too. So if Mono takes off, those people will get highlight, and Free software will suffer.Aug 23 16:15
ronald__exactlyAug 23 16:15
ronald__they are FSF hate mongersAug 23 16:15
ThistleWebI hate some of the stuff the FSF do tooAug 23 16:16
ronald__they hate ALLAug 23 16:16
ThistleWebwell, not hate exactly, just like an uncle I'd rather not be associated with when he turns upAug 23 16:17
ronald__they want to destroy itAug 23 16:17
*Judas_PhD (~kevin@misterfluffy.dsl.xmission.com) has joined #techrightsAug 23 16:17
gnufreexWine and Samba are too a Windows tools. But Wine and Samba developers are not doing it  despite free software. They are mostly free software advocates. Just look Jeremy Alison.Aug 23 16:17
gnufreexHe is no Miguel De Icaza.Aug 23 16:17
ThistleWebbut by all means, set it out in extremes, paint the worst possible picture, it's working greatAug 23 16:17
gnufreexAnd mono fanboys like to compare Samba with Mono.Aug 23 16:17
ronald__it's working for themAug 23 16:17
ronald__they paint FSF in hateAug 23 16:18
ronald__and it works for themAug 23 16:18
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @TheTechScribe: "Back to Basics: Looks Aren't Everything" <- Bedazzled by Windows 7 http://bit.ly/ati3ck by @TheTechScribeAug 23 16:18
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Back to Basics: Looks Aren't Everything | ITworld .::. Size~: 81.34 KBAug 23 16:18
ronald__why not it works for us?Aug 23 16:18
ronald__imo, thistleweb is a closet MONO supporterAug 23 16:18
ThistleWebif that works for you, feel free to believe itAug 23 16:18
ronald__see? doesn't deny itAug 23 16:19
ThistleWeblolAug 23 16:19
gnufreexhaha.Aug 23 16:19
ronald__:)Aug 23 16:19
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] @ffii full transparencyAug 23 16:19
ronald__gonna go out for a smokeAug 23 16:20
ThistleWebronald__: you're asking how to win, I'm saying taking extreme positions, acting the same as they do doesnt workAug 23 16:20
schestowitzHehe. look at thatAug 23 16:20
ronald__ThistleWeb: I was kidding youAug 23 16:20
schestowitzNovell/Mono developers now retweet Florian's smears of me: http://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/status/21892557345Aug 23 16:20
ThistleWebthat last accusation almost made me fall out of my chair with laughterAug 23 16:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Twitter / FOSS Patents: #boycottboy blamed me for  ... .::. Size~: 9.01 KBAug 23 16:20
TechrightsBot-trthat last accusation almost made me fall out of my chair with laughterAug 23 16:20
gnufreexWhat I was saying, Mono advocates say Mono is like Samba. Except Miguel De Icaza is rabid anti-FSF basher. Jeremy Alison is free sofware advocate.Aug 23 16:20
ronald__schestowitz: their smears are working too I thinkAug 23 16:21
schestowitzHereis Florian chatting with a troll whose avatar is me with HORNSAug 23 16:21
ronald__they seem to get more support latelyAug 23 16:21
schestowitzWhat a rubbish crowd he's with...Aug 23 16:21
-TRT/#techrights-[zoobab] Horns: the document summarises that the creation of the PC as an international court does not conflict with EU treaties: http://ur1.ca/17qjfAug 23 16:21
TechrightsBot-trTitle: EU Patent: Advocates General Suggesting To 'Rise The Bar' In a Different Way  - BLOG@IPJUR.COM .::. Size~: 52.33 KBAug 23 16:22
schestowitzNow he talk with the guy who called C*** the opposers to Mono. http://twitter.com/FOSSpatents/statuses/21920201579Aug 23 16:22
schestowitzHehe. He found his crowdAug 23 16:22
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Twitter / FOSS Patents: @directhex That's a very s ... .::. Size~: 8.84 KBAug 23 16:22
schestowitzMicrosoft boostersAug 23 16:22
gnufreexronald__ hold on, I am going to get you some linksAug 23 16:22
ThistleWebFOSS advocacy is the long tough road, with the world arranged against usAug 23 16:22
ronald__gnufreex: okAug 23 16:23
schestowitzAnd then he retweets De Icaza's smearing of me: http://twitter.com/migueldeicaza/status/21517772795Aug 23 16:23
ThistleWebthere's never gonna be a quick fixAug 23 16:23
ronald__I really need a smoke thoAug 23 16:23
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Twitter / Miguel de Icaza: Someone angry at Oracle is ... .::. Size~: 12 KBAug 23 16:23
ronald__so hurry up ;)Aug 23 16:23
schestowitzFlorian - back with his colleagues from MicrosoftAug 23 16:23
gnufreexThis is most rabid Mono pusher and flameboy http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=134656Aug 23 16:23
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Ambiguous election in Australia http://ur1.ca/17qjkAug 23 16:23
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] #Iftar time, day 13 of #Ramadhan.Aug 23 16:23
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Ubuntu Forums - View Profile: zekopeko .::. Size~: 35.9 KBAug 23 16:23
ronald__I think you should just smear them backAug 23 16:24
ronald__but whateverAug 23 16:24
ronald__so funny how MONO boosters always say their side is the one based in realityAug 23 16:24
-TRT/#techrights-[zoobab] Horns: the Court would decide on the patentability of computer-implemented inventions http://ur1.ca/17qjfAug 23 16:25
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @zoobab Can the EPO be declared illegal due to its restrictive approach to languages? I want your opinion. #swpats #eu #epoAug 23 16:25
TechrightsBot-trTitle: EU Patent: Advocates General Suggesting To 'Rise The Bar' In a Different Way  - BLOG@IPJUR.COM .::. Size~: 52.33 KBAug 23 16:25
schestowitz[15:55] <ThistleWeb> the problem with trolls is that they are fueled by conflict, if you oppose them they love itAug 23 16:25
schestowitzYeahAug 23 16:25
gnufreexHere is another one. http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=142879Aug 23 16:25
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Ubuntu Forums - View Profile: gnomeuser .::. Size~: 43.33 KBAug 23 16:25
schestowitz[15:56] <gnufreex> ThistleWeb: That is exactly how Linsux crowd works.Aug 23 16:25
gnufreexNote that they are not in Linsux group.Aug 23 16:25
schestowitzThey trolled FS DailyAug 23 16:25
schestowitzStirred the people there up against meAug 23 16:25
ThistleWebmore blood bytes than blood diamonds but they do fuel conflictAug 23 16:25
schestowitzBut then someone exposed themAug 23 16:25
schestowitzAnd they got kicked outAug 23 16:25
gnufreexschestowitz: I know.Aug 23 16:25
schestowitzThey are still infesting identica at the momentAug 23 16:26
schestowitzAnd UF, I guess (I don't ever visit it, seems like a jungle)Aug 23 16:26
ThistleWebblood byte......not to be confused with a vampire thang ;)Aug 23 16:26
gnufreexschestowitz: They claimed they like stallman, and they just hate mindless zealots.Aug 23 16:26
ronald__they use gorilla warfare ;)Aug 23 16:26
schestowitzLixs** pretended to like LinuxAug 23 16:26
schestowitzAnd some people believed themAug 23 16:26
gnufreexschestowitz: That is line they use to infiltrateAug 23 16:26
schestowitzThen someone showed parts of their site saying it clearly that they are anti-LinuixAug 23 16:26
ronald__the MONO trolls are nothing but liarsAug 23 16:26
schestowitzShow this to UF modsAug 23 16:26
ronald__they don't even know how to tell the truth I betAug 23 16:27
schestowitzShow them they are trolled wittilyAug 23 16:27
gnufreexschestowitz: When they are in, they just widen the definition of "Zealots" to anyone who don't think like them.Aug 23 16:27
schestowitzAnd if they refuse to ban the anti-Linux trolls, then I'll do a post about how Ubuntu harbours anti-Linux typesAug 23 16:27
ThistleWeb<ronald__> they don't even know how to tell the truth I bet << thats why you don't play them at their own game, you fight with logic, calmness and non-personalAug 23 16:27
schestowitzThe "I love Linux but" or "I tried Linux and.."Aug 23 16:27
schestowitzLike DaemonTrollAug 23 16:27
-TRT/#techrights-[qu1j0t3] Petri Purho rocks! http://www.gamereactor.eu/news/2733/Crayon+Physics+creator+speaks/ #indie #games #crayonphysicsAug 23 16:28
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Crayon Physics creator speaks - Gamereactor International - Crayon Physics Deluxe .::. Size~: 39.28 KBAug 23 16:28
ThistleWebthat's what I like about schestowitz the way he posts with exceots and links to the original article for those who want to read themsleves, disclosures etc....all the stuff they lack in their agendaAug 23 16:28
schestowitz[16:02] <ronald__> and they point at twitter's sockpuppet pageAug 23 16:28
schestowitzWho's twitterAug 23 16:28
schestowitzI'm meAug 23 16:28
schestowitzI'm not someone elseAug 23 16:28
ronald__they say he is your friendAug 23 16:28
schestowitz[16:04] <ThistleWeb> we're not responsible for the actions of othersAug 23 16:29
schestowitzyeahAug 23 16:29
ronald__so they sue him and his sockpuppet accounts against youAug 23 16:29
ronald__useAug 23 16:29
schestowitzBut they try to make them part of the "we". "Fink" for exampleAug 23 16:29
ronald__to make you look badAug 23 16:29
schestowitzThey word it like thatAug 23 16:29
ronald__I told them that it's not fair to hold you responsible for themAug 23 16:29
-TRT/#techrights-[qu1j0t3] .@JerryMander MouseMail is the product his HuffPo column is shilling. Did you read it? I agree the whole thing STINKS! Screw you AriannaAug 23 16:30
ronald__and they said you play the same guilty by association gameAug 23 16:30
ronald__that's when a bunch of them all attacked meAug 23 16:31
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Why the World Is Running Out of Helium http://bit.ly/dhjlCFAug 23 16:31
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Why the World Is Running Out of Helium .::. Size~: 49.98 KBAug 23 16:31
ronald__and I gave upAug 23 16:31
ThistleWebin other words, you played their game and lostAug 23 16:31
ronald__only because they outnumbered meAug 23 16:31
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @zoobab Bristows: Advocate General says "non" to the Community Patent and a European Patents Court (objections are weak..)Aug 23 16:32
ThistleWebif you were smart you could have used that to your advantageAug 23 16:32
ronald__whateverAug 23 16:32
ronald__I need a smokeAug 23 16:32
ThistleWeba one-on-one fight looks like a fight, a ten-on-one looks like bullyingAug 23 16:32
ronald__but then they just argue it's because people with their views simply outnumber people against MONOAug 23 16:33
schestowitz[16:17] <gnufreex> Wine and Samba are too a Windows tools. But Wine and Samba developers are not doing it  despite free software. They are mostly free software advocates. Just look Jeremy Alison.Aug 23 16:33
ronald__and back to square oneAug 23 16:33
schestowitzThe thing is, they deal with needAug 23 16:33
schestowitzSamba lets you connect  to WintendoAug 23 16:34
schestowitzWIne lets you run old Wintendo binariesAug 23 16:34
schestowitzMono is not the sameAug 23 16:34
ronald__yeaAug 23 16:34
ronald__ok, smokeAug 23 16:35
gnufreexschestowitz: That is what I am saying. They deal with need and they are not Microsoft fanboys. Mono guys do it just becasuae Microsoft fanboyism.Aug 23 16:35
*ronald__ has quit (Quit: Page closed)Aug 23 16:35
ThistleWebsome will genuinely believe MONO helps linuxAug 23 16:35
gnufreexThistleWeb: There is that too. But I don't see why they are pushing to convert everyting to Mono if they want to hepl Linux.Aug 23 16:36
gnufreexThistleWeb: They should just develop Mono and few prof-of-concept apps, and relaize that converting things to Mono is doing Microsoft a favour.Aug 23 16:37
ThistleWebI do see mono as having a purpose, but I disagree that it should be included by default, I also disagree with starting a project in itAug 23 16:38
gnufreexThistleWeb: I first thought Mono is not so dangerous, but when I saw what kind of people advocate it, I become Mono hater.Aug 23 16:38
ThistleWebit's fine being in the repos for those who need itAug 23 16:38
gnufreexThistleWeb: Same with me.Aug 23 16:38
gnufreexI have no problem with being in repos.Aug 23 16:38
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] Submitted my !Firefox 4 Beta Interface study data.Aug 23 16:38
gnufreexWell, now I have problem, when I saw what gang Monsters are. But I didn't in first place.Aug 23 16:39
ThistleWebas far as mono apps included by default, its disappointing, but if MS does pull the legal trap door, they can easily be switched out for non-mono apps which do a similar thing at that timeAug 23 16:39
ThistleWebso far oracle have pulled that lever with java, MS have kept their guns in their holster, although it's obvious that they have those guns and a bad rep so it's likely theyll pull it out at some pointAug 23 16:40
ThistleWebunless they're hoping peeps will jump from java to mono / .netAug 23 16:41
gnufreexThistleWeb: That is exactly what they are hoping. And exactly what they want.Aug 23 16:41
gnufreexThat is what scares me about Mono. They want world domination. Or at least complete domination of GNU/Linux and Free Software worldAug 23 16:42
ThistleWebhence they keep the gun in the holtser for now, which means mono is safe......for nowAug 23 16:42
-TRT/#techrights-[linuxtoday] Valve Says - No Steam For Linux: Digitizor: "Today Valve have officially killed the rumor. And it is not what peop... http://bit.ly/ct9ZDSAug 23 16:43
-TRT/#techrights-[linuxtoday] More stuff you can, but shouldn't, do: Motho ke motho ka botho: "Remember 3ddesktop? Before Compiz was adopted as ... http://bit.ly/d0dFsPAug 23 16:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Linux Today - Valve Says - No Steam For Linux .::. Size~: 76.51 KBAug 23 16:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Linux Today - More stuff you can, but shouldn’t, do .::. Size~: 76.68 KBAug 23 16:44
gnufreexI just found old thread. Here is the prof that KiwinZ is Apple shareholder http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9614802#post9614802Aug 23 16:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Apple posts record $3.25b profit in first full quarter of iPad sales - Ubuntu Forums .::. Size~: 100.82 KBAug 23 16:44
*DaemonFC (~ryan@ppp-69-215-48-29.dsl.sbndin.ameritech.net) has joined #techrightsAug 23 16:45
*oiaohm (~oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #techrightsAug 23 16:46
-TRT/#techrights-[ffii] It's very useful to talk about standards.Aug 23 16:46
DaemonFCHow about some freedom from technology? After this morning I think I may need to move to Ivory Coast or someplace that makes more senseAug 23 16:47
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzAug 23 16:47
*schestowitz sets ban on DaemonFC!*@*Aug 23 16:47
*schestowitz has kicked DaemonFC from #techrights (User term)Aug 23 16:47
gnufreexDaemonFC: What about some freedom form TROLLING?Aug 23 16:48
*schestowitz sets ban on *!*@ppp-69-215*Aug 23 16:48
schestowitz"Freedom from pr0n"Aug 23 16:48
-BNi/#techrights-[harishpillay/@harishpillay] RT @webmink OpenSolaris Governing Board Resigns: Image via Wikipedia I’m very sad to report that it proved necessary for the... http:/ ...Aug 23 16:48
schestowitz[16:48] <DaemonFC> schestowitz: Why are you such a patsy?Aug 23 16:49
oiaohmThat freedom from technology there are many resorts that offer that here.  schestowitzAug 23 16:49
schestowitzgnufreex: "My Dividend cheque "Aug 23 16:49
schestowitzLOLAug 23 16:50
schestowitzI saw them beforeAug 23 16:50
schestowitzLike SnyderAug 23 16:50
schestowitzWho admitted being MSFT and APPL shareholder when writing about FOSSAug 23 16:50
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Newsweek Explains Why Fashion Designers Don't Need Copyright http://dlvr.it/48J6PAug 23 16:50
schestowitzPromoting the fauxpen source agenda in IDGAug 23 16:50
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Police Arrest Researcher Who Showed E-Voting Machines Are Not Secure http://dlvr.it/48J6BAug 23 16:50
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Is Malware To Blame For Plane Crash That Killed 154? http://dlvr.it/48J62Aug 23 16:50
gnufreexI think I shown that to you on some comment on techrightsAug 23 16:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Newsweek Explains Why Fashion Designers Don't Need Copyright | Techdirt .::. Size~: 29.88 KBAug 23 16:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Police Arrest Researcher Who Showed E-Voting Machines Are Not Secure | Techdirt .::. Size~: 29.88 KBAug 23 16:50
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Is Malware To Blame For Plane Crash That Killed 154? | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.35 KBAug 23 16:50
gnufreexI hoped ronald__ to see, because he was asking for proofs.Aug 23 16:51
gnufreexBut he disconected obvoiouslyAug 23 16:51
schestowitzBill SnyderAug 23 16:51
schestowitzThis phony: http://www.infoworld.com/blogs/bill-snyderAug 23 16:52
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Bill Snyder's blog - InfoWorld .::. Size~: 65.62 KBAug 23 16:52
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] MSNBC writes about malware on the Spanair computer, doesn't mention Windows http://ur1.ca/17qt6Aug 23 16:55
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Malware implicated in fatal Spanair plane crash - Technology & science - Security - msnbc.com .::. Size~: 43.47 KBAug 23 16:55
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Ubuntu Forums admin is an Apple shareholder http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=9614802#post9614802Aug 23 17:06
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Apple posts record $3.25b profit in first full quarter of iPad sales - Ubuntu Forums .::. Size~: 100.82 KBAug 23 17:06
-BNi/#techrights-[bkuhn/@bkuhn] RT @webmink Open Source Trade Associations Lack Sanctions: Software patents are broken and the only possible justification for... http:/ ...Aug 23 17:08
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] I've been shown many examples today of anti-Linux crowd infiltrating #Ubuntu Forums to attack #FSF and #Linux too (under 'free speech')Aug 23 17:09
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] China's Nine-Day Traffic Jam Tops 62 Miles http://bit.ly/czoHKwAug 23 17:10
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Idle Story | China's Nine-Day Traffic Jam Tops 62 Miles .::. Size~: 33.75 KBAug 23 17:10
schestowitzhttp://identi.ca/conversation/46791880#notice-47158273Aug 23 17:11
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Conversation - Identi.ca .::. Size~: 9.11 KBAug 23 17:11
schestowitzUBuntu folks have no problem with Apple people moderatint themAug 23 17:11
gnufreexschestowitz: Is this ronald__ guy regular here?Aug 23 17:13
gnufreex If he wants to go on a campaign against Linsux, I might want to help him.Aug 23 17:13
cubevectorI don't understand the anti-linux crowdAug 23 17:14
cubevectorsure, I understand Gates and Ballmer but the others?Aug 23 17:15
cubevectorjust punks beaking off about nothingAug 23 17:15
schestowitzgnufreex: not a regularAug 23 17:16
schestowitzNever seen it hereAug 23 17:16
schestowitzI saw a roland submitting some articles in Linux sitesAug 23 17:16
gnufreexcubevector: They made lot of sucess on Ubuntu Fourm, and got folowing.Aug 23 17:18
cubevectorwell....Aug 23 17:18
cubevectorit's not like no one attacks windowsAug 23 17:19
schestowitz[17:19] <cubevector> it's not like no one attacks windowsAug 23 17:19
schestowitzThese people don't hang out in Windows forums usuallyAug 23 17:19
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] Just Days After Hurd's Ousting, #HP Backtracks and Puts #Windows Before #Linux http://ur1.ca/17r0w #ballmer #entryism #palm #webosAug 23 17:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Just Days After Hurds Ousting, HP Backtracks and Puts Windows Before Linux | Techrights .::. Size~: 102.78 KBAug 23 17:20
gnufreexcubevector: Those get moderated. Admins officialy fobiden speling Microsoft incorectly.Aug 23 17:20
gnufreexThey modify your post if you say Micro$oftAug 23 17:20
schestowitzPeople who hate Justin Buhbah don't hang out in forums about it to heckleAug 23 17:20
gnufreexIf you do it regularly, you get infraction.Aug 23 17:20
cubevectoroh I agree it's annoying :)Aug 23 17:20
cubevectorespecially the attacks on the FSFAug 23 17:21
schestowitzgnufreex:  maybe they are embarrassed of moneyAug 23 17:21
schestowitzIf I wrote F$F, would it be censoredAug 23 17:21
cubevectoryeah but that would be sillyAug 23 17:21
schestowitzOr does it apply only with the "Microsoft hater" filter in mind?Aug 23 17:21
gnufreexschestowitz: haha... F$F spelling would be desired.Aug 23 17:21
schestowitzMicrosoft is like Islam. Can't insult it, there are special rulesAug 23 17:21
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] The Doctor's Every Journey http://bit.ly/bSILgYAug 23 17:22
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Entertainment Story | The Doctor's Every Journey .::. Size~: 46.82 KBAug 23 17:22
schestowitzgnufreex: try itAug 23 17:22
cubevectorI insult Microsoft all the timeAug 23 17:22
schestowitzS$SAug 23 17:22
schestowitz |Aug 23 17:22
gnufreexI am not on UF anymore.Aug 23 17:22
cubevectorthe other day on a customer's box "windows geniune advantage" pops upAug 23 17:22
schestowitzI haven't been there for like 5 yearsAug 23 17:22
cubevectorlegal install of windows tooAug 23 17:22
schestowitzI wonder if my username is still valid in UFAug 23 17:23
gnufreexBut for example, Kiwinz changed name of this thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1540689Aug 23 17:23
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Software Freedom Law Center claims proprietary software puts pacemaker users at risk - Ubuntu Forums .::. Size~: 98.05 KBAug 23 17:23
gnufreexAdded "Software Freedom Law Center claims"Aug 23 17:23
schestowitzThat's OKAug 23 17:23
gnufreexTo emhasisze it is bullshitAug 23 17:23
cubevectorI don't go trolling microsoft forums, that would be sillyAug 23 17:23
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Eric Scott murdered by Vegas cops http://ur1.ca/17r3bAug 23 17:23
schestowitz"v"Aug 23 17:23
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] FaceBook: Do we really have to "Like" everything? http://is.gd/ez0DFAug 23 17:24
schestowitz"OK,but can you then add "proprietary" or "non-open" before "software" ... ? "Aug 23 17:24
schestowitz*LOL*Aug 23 17:24
TechrightsBot-trTitle: FaceBook: Do we really have to "Like" everything? | ZDNet  .::. Size~: 106.25 KBAug 23 17:24
schestowitzPedanticAug 23 17:24
cubevectorthe more I learn about Xerox the more I'm shaking my headAug 23 17:24
gnufreexNotice SFLC smears at end of that thread.Aug 23 17:24
cubevectorlike who did the real innovation?Aug 23 17:24
gnufreexLinuxers call it Souther Poverty Law Center.Aug 23 17:25
gnufreexI have no idea what's thatAug 23 17:25
cubevectorreally Xerox, Bell Labs and MIT and later on the Linux crowdAug 23 17:25
*OsamaK (~Osama@fsf/member/osamak) has joined #techrightsAug 23 17:25
gnufreexBut its probably bnadAug 23 17:25
gnufreex*badAug 23 17:25
cubevectorand I have to give some props to IBMAug 23 17:26
cubevectorthey invented the hard drive and the disk driveAug 23 17:26
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Today's music: The new Jimmy Webb/tribute album: Just Across the River http://is.gd/ez1geAug 23 17:28
TechrightsBot-trTitle: The New York Times > Log In .::. Size~: 9.01 KBAug 23 17:29
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Pay Up: Got a blog that makes no money? Philly wants $300, thank you very much. http://is.gd/ez1yLAug 23 17:31
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Pay Up :: News :: Article :: Philadelphia City Paper .::. Size~: 245.69 KBAug 23 17:32
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Who really has the chops to take on Apple? Excuse Me If I'm not Too Excited by iPad Rivals. http://bit.ly/clpzqp by @ron_millerAug 23 17:34
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Federated Media Buys TextDigger: Speaks to Sem Tech's Value In Advertising Ventures - @Jenz514 http://bit.ly/aammwCAug 23 17:34
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Excuse Me If I'm Not Too Excited by iPad Rivals - by Ron Miller .::. Size~: 44.95 KBAug 23 17:34
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Federated Media Buys TextDigger: Like Facebook's Purchase of Chai Labs, This Acquisition Speaks to Sem Tech's Value In Advertising Ventures    - Semantic Web .::. Size~: 28.71 KBAug 23 17:34
schestowitz"Took me several minutes to realize "Hurd" is a human, not a GNU kernel..." http://identi.ca/conversation/46793567#notice-47160635Aug 23 17:34
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Conversation - Identi.ca .::. Size~: 9.39 KBAug 23 17:34
schestowitzI get confused by that too sometimesAug 23 17:34
*sebsebseb (~3seb@unaffiliated/sebsebseb) has joined #techrightsAug 23 17:37
sebsebsebHiAug 23 17:37
sebsebsebschestowitz: Why does it say in topic to join boycottnovell and boycottnovell-social still?Aug 23 17:38
sebsebsebschestowitz: Why has BNi not been re named to something else?Aug 23 17:38
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Warner Bros. Upset About Harry Popper Condoms http://dlvr.it/48QftAug 23 17:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Warner Bros. Upset About Harry Popper Condoms | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.46 KBAug 23 17:43
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Is Linux Publicity Targeting the Right Market? http://is.gd/ez37AAug 23 17:47
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] Is this a patent on cookies? http://is.gd/ez3P9 If yes, it might become a royal PITA for the web: http://is.gd/ez3W2Aug 23 17:54
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Internet server access control and monitoring systems - Patent 7272639 .::. Size~: 134.74 KBAug 23 17:54
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Soverain Patents Found Valid and Infringed -- CHICAGO, Aug. 23 /PRNewswire/ -- .::. Size~: 48.48 KBAug 23 17:54
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Why do Windows app updates think you accidentally removed a desktop shortcut if it's not there? And re-add it.Aug 23 17:58
-TRT/#techrights-[jwildeboer] And in that same case we have very broad e-commerce patents http://is.gd/ez45t and http://is.gd/ez4dB #swpat #failAug 23 17:58
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Network sales system - Patent 5715314 .::. Size~: 91.92 KBAug 23 17:58
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Network sales system - Patent 5909492 .::. Size~: 105.28 KBAug 23 17:58
-TRT/#techrights-[thistleweb] Hairy Pooper would be a better name than Harry Popper, but that might imply they're shitAug 23 17:59
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Where Tech Jobs Will Be In 2020 http://bit.ly/9ijHU3 Me: Interesting analysis.Aug 23 18:04
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 23 18:04
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Bacteria From Beer Lasts 553 Days in Space http://bit.ly/doZ8ySAug 23 18:12
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Science Story | Bacteria From Beer Lasts 553 Days in Space .::. Size~: 46.4 KBAug 23 18:13
gnufreexHaha http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1559356Aug 23 18:21
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Jono Bacon gives a small shout to Windows - Ubuntu Forums .::. Size~: 69.04 KBAug 23 18:21
*_Goblin (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #techrightsAug 23 18:22
_GoblinHi all!Aug 23 18:22
gnufreexHiAug 23 18:22
oiaohmHi _GoblinAug 23 18:23
_GoblinHi!Aug 23 18:23
_Goblinhad a development with my Win 7 refund!Aug 23 18:23
_Goblingot a result.Aug 23 18:23
_GoblinAcer will refund (allegedly)Aug 23 18:23
gnufreexDid they give back money!Aug 23 18:23
_Goblinthey will be.Aug 23 18:24
_GoblinI got a reference number and everything!Aug 23 18:24
_Goblinonly one issue.....Aug 23 18:24
_Goblinthey require collection of my PC to nuke the system themselves (presumably)Aug 23 18:24
oiaohmYou know the worst part of this _GoblinAug 23 18:24
_Goblingo on...Aug 23 18:25
oiaohmAcer will be paying you not Microsoft.Aug 23 18:25
oiaohmIe Mcirosoft gets to keep the money Acer paid.Aug 23 18:25
_GoblinIm sure....its more a principle of paying for something I don't want.Aug 23 18:25
_Goblinand being "recorded" as a Windows 7 user when Im not.Aug 23 18:25
oiaohmReally Microsoft should refund.Aug 23 18:26
gnufreexoiaohm: If enough people do this, then Acer will ship less WCs and more LCsAug 23 18:26
_Goblinthe money (however much I get) is being donated to the FSF...Aug 23 18:26
_Goblinso alls well that ends well (hopefully)Aug 23 18:26
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Who's smearing whom? WIkileaks or the CIA? Swedish nazis or radical feminists? Anyone for all of the above? http://bit.ly/afNmr7Aug 23 18:27
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Wikileaks' Julian Assange "not a rapist" -- CIA smears? - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 76.07 KBAug 23 18:27
oiaohmI have always found Microsoft System builder agreements disgusting.Aug 23 18:27
_Goblinschestowitz: you about...?Aug 23 18:27
oiaohmAny licence you have returned you are ment to recycle onto another machine.Aug 23 18:27
oiaohmYou cannot return them to microsoft or aquire new stickers to replace the ones damaged in removal.Aug 23 18:27
oiaohmSo the system builder ends up out of pocket.Aug 23 18:28
_Goblinthat sticker was the hardest part of the Linux install....getting the damn thing off!Aug 23 18:28
oiaohmAnd MS does not have to subtract the sale.Aug 23 18:28
oiaohmSo yes _Goblin you will still be counted by MS as having windows.Aug 23 18:28
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Assange rape charge fabricated http://ur1.ca/17rluAug 23 18:28
gnufreexoiaohm: That is why Microsoft has 50% profit margins while system builders like Acer have 3%Aug 23 18:28
_GoblinAt least though my purchase won't feel as tainted.Aug 23 18:28
gnufreexYou would think that system builders whould revolt one day...Aug 23 18:29
gnufreexbut noAug 23 18:29
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] Ubuntu Developer Summit announced! 25th - 29th Oct 2010 in Orlando, USA - http://is.gd/ez7Du #ubuntu #community #gnome #kdeAug 23 18:30
TechrightsBot-trTitle:                   11.04 Ubuntu Developer Summit Announced | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 24.94 KBAug 23 18:30
_GoblinIt amazing isn't it....if things don't change OEM wise and Linux dominates the market, Microsoft will still be running itself on revenue from an unwanted OS (as long as its OEM)....amazing really...you can build and sustain an empire on nothing these days.Aug 23 18:30
gnufreexThey even apoint ex-Microsofties to their chief positionsAug 23 18:30
_Goblingood thing though....its brought Robotroll back to my blog.Aug 23 18:30
oiaohmgnufreex: system builders to attempt revoltsAug 23 18:30
_Goblin*robotronAug 23 18:30
oiaohmto/doAug 23 18:31
*tessier_ has quit (Quit: Leaving)Aug 23 18:31
oiaohmgnufreex: MS still has different pricings for different OEM's. gnufreexAug 23 18:31
gnufreexoiaohm: Yes, IBM attempted too. They had to exit PC bussiness after that.Aug 23 18:31
gnufreexoiaohm: Other who have nothing but PC bussiness, are desperate. They do what MS says.Aug 23 18:32
*tessier (~treed@kernel-panic/copilotco) has joined #techrightsAug 23 18:33
gnufreexHP's Hurd entered into tablet market by buying Palm. Now he got framed for rape.Aug 23 18:33
-BNi/#techrights-[openbytes/@openbytes] My quest for a !windows7 refund has gone well. Apparently !Acer will be refunding me. I'll keep people posted! !microsoft !mvp !windowsAug 23 18:33
gnufreexHave to goAug 23 18:34
gnufreexbrbAug 23 18:34
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] Chicago Cubs should hire Ryne Sandberg to replace Lou Piniella http://is.gd/ez8wE Me: Agreed. It's time.Aug 23 18:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Chicago Cubs should hire Ryne Sandberg to replace Lou Piniella - ESPN .::. Size~: 49.66 KBAug 23 18:38
-BNi/#techrights-[openbytes/@openbytes] Techrights covers the issue of !windows7 refunds and much more - http://techrights.org/2010/08/23/campaign-for-refunds/ !linux !microsoftAug 23 18:38
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Techrights Announces TechCHOICES Initiative: Get Your Vista 7 Refund and Show the World How to Do It | Techrights .::. Size~: 104.28 KBAug 23 18:38
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts http://bit.ly/9VLBO0Aug 23 18:40
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Your Rights Online Story | Justice Department Seeks Ebonics Experts .::. Size~: 46.19 KBAug 23 18:40
-TRT/#techrights-[nsisodiya] is FIAT blind ? http://www.google.co.in/search?q=FIAT+%2B+microsoftAug 23 18:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: FIAT + microsoft - Google Search .::. Size~: 39.37 KBAug 23 18:44
-TRT/#techrights-[nsisodiya] How to propose a girl from bash terminal - for (( ; ; )) do espeak "Darling , I love you" ; done #bash #loveAug 23 18:53
oiaohmMost don't notice OEM's like Dell attempting to open up there OS base all the time.Aug 23 18:53
oiaohmThe OS locking MS has created is very strong.Aug 23 18:53
oiaohmLot of people don't like it but to will the battle with MS OEM's either need a law forbining shovelware or Linux having shovelware that pays.Aug 23 18:55
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Bob Dylan Gets Around Service Fees & Scalpers With A Simple Plan: Pay Cash At The Door http://dlvr.it/48XwgAug 23 18:56
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Bob Dylan Gets Around Service Fees & Scalpers With A Simple Plan: Pay Cash At The Door | Techdirt .::. Size~: 20.65 KBAug 23 18:56
gnufreexoiaohm: Yeah, dell is trying.Aug 23 19:00
gnufreexIBM also tried by gave up. HP is about to give up, since Hurd is ousted.Aug 23 19:01
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Authors Guild Silent Over iBooks Text-To-Speech http://bit.ly/cVo6XLAug 23 19:02
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot News Story | Authors Guild Silent Over iBooks Text-To-Speech .::. Size~: 48.71 KBAug 23 19:02
gnufreexMicrosoftie is cheaf of HP software division.Aug 23 19:02
-BNi/#techrights-[silner/@silner] Microsoft: 'We love open source' But they still hate Linux so this is pretty hollow really http://ow.ly/2txM3Aug 23 19:08
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Microsoft: 'We love open source' .::. Size~: 100.17 KBAug 23 19:08
-BNi/#techrights-[openbytes/@openbytes] NewsBytes – Monday 23rd August 2010 http://tinyurl.com/2up4k4h !microsoft !linux !foss !xbox360 !sony !move !techrights !cvg !telegraphAug 23 19:13
TechrightsBot-trTitle: NewsBytes  Monday 23rd August 2010 « OpenBytes .::. Size~: 40.31 KBAug 23 19:13
oiaohmAlso the issue is that Linux has really not been fully ready in a lot of areas.  gnufreexAug 23 19:22
oiaohmThe Linux side will only get stronger over the next 12 months.Aug 23 19:22
gnufreexoiaohm: Well that is true for Windows too, it was never ready to power London Stock Exchange, and they tried anyways.Aug 23 19:23
oiaohmsystemd is a major change.Aug 23 19:23
gnufreexoiaohm: Also, Windows was never ready for desktop eirher.Aug 23 19:23
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Alguém aí usa Mandriva ? Que história é essa de ter que comprar os codecs ? WTF ?!?!?Aug 23 19:23
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Does any1 out there use Mandriva ? What's the matter having to buy the codecs ? WTF ?!?!?Aug 23 19:23
gnufreexThey hust put it there with a hammer.Aug 23 19:24
oiaohmLinux has been weak in graphical configuration.  gnufreexAug 23 19:24
gnufreexI think not. Mandriva had Drake thingie since forever.Aug 23 19:24
oiaohmThe end of the old system V init scripts.Aug 23 19:24
-TRT/#techrights-[ml2mst] Leuke nieuwe serie op Veronica: The Big Bang Theory (US) http://tinyurl.com/36usv4xAug 23 19:25
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Veronica TV - The Big Bang Theory - Over The Big Bang Theory .::. Size~: 17.76 KBAug 23 19:25
oiaohmBut that is segmented gnufreexAug 23 19:25
_GoblinIve probably said this before but Mandriva is the one Linux Distro that really let me down.Aug 23 19:25
oiaohmWe are going to see consoldidation.Aug 23 19:25
oiaohmLinux kernel is very quickly running to the end of features you can add to a OS core.Aug 23 19:26
gnufreexI would love to see just SuSE and Novell dead.Aug 23 19:26
gnufreexThere you have consolidationAug 23 19:26
gnufreexOthers are good.Aug 23 19:26
oiaohmYou are aware that people working on there linux kernel want flashy features to show to boss to explain what they were upto.Aug 23 19:26
oiaohmSo as Linux kernel runs out of features to add.  Developers from there will spreed.Aug 23 19:27
oiaohmsystemd is one of the first examples of it.Aug 23 19:27
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Governments in denial about peak oil http://ur1.ca/17s1cAug 23 19:29
*_Goblin has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)Aug 23 19:33
*_Goblin (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #techrightsAug 23 19:35
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] @openbytes Nice Tim, I'm researchin on how to get the bucks from M$ back to write an article on my Blog. In Brazil we have laws that help itAug 23 19:38
_Goblinlol - Andre Da Costa's promoting seems to have annoyed Facebook...this is what he says:Aug 23 19:42
_Goblin"Yep, they claim I am posting too much on my favorite public sites and its bordering spam. How do they know that?"Aug 23 19:43
_GoblinSo Andre's now spamming facebook with his MS cut and pastes?Aug 23 19:43
gnufreex<_Goblin> Ive probably said this before but Mandriva is the one Linux Distro that really let me down.Aug 23 19:46
gnufreexwhy?Aug 23 19:46
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Sense Of Entitlement? TV Show Creator Wants A Cut Of Hulu IPO Proceeds http://dlvr.it/48cmsAug 23 19:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Sense Of Entitlement? TV Show Creator Wants A Cut Of Hulu IPO Proceeds | Techdirt .::. Size~: 21.55 KBAug 23 19:48
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] OpenSolaris Governing Board Dissolves Itself http://bit.ly/ajQNP8Aug 23 19:55
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Developers Story | OpenSolaris Governing Board Dissolves Itself .::. Size~: 50.24 KBAug 23 19:55
gnufreexschestowitz: You have been exposed: http://nenolod.net/techrights-org-an-enemy-of-free-software/Aug 23 19:55
TechrightsBot-trTitle: techrights.org  an enemy of free software «  nenolod.net .::. Size~: 11.3 KBAug 23 19:55
gnufreexHahaAug 23 19:56
gnufreexschestowitz: That is kind of bullshit that is used agaist free software all the time. Brand someone (FSF, most offten, this time you) extremist and say he does more hard than good.Aug 23 19:57
gnufreexhard / harmAug 23 20:01
ThistleWebsome of the stuff the FSF do, they don't help their causeAug 23 20:02
gnufreexThistleWeb: For example?Aug 23 20:03
ThistleWeball the negative "harass the apple genius bar" stuffAug 23 20:03
ThistleWebjust makes regular peeps think "who are these losers?"Aug 23 20:04
gnufreexThistleWeb: Well, it is litle more complicated than that. Apple is spining, painting themselves as friends of "open at the source". You have to ask them hard questions if you want to expose them.Aug 23 20:05
ThistleWebevery negative campaign the FSF do makes me distance myself from themAug 23 20:05
ThistleWebI know what apple do tyvmAug 23 20:05
ThistleWebharassing employees the equivelant of worker bees just doing their (probs not very well paid) job doesnt workAug 23 20:06
gnufreexFSF can't know what's the reaction until they try.Aug 23 20:06
gnufreexThat campaign was maybe a flopAug 23 20:06
gnufreexBut I thin Windows7sins is in placeAug 23 20:07
ThistleWebyeah they're fulla idiots who cant guess the reaction to "what if we act like tools"Aug 23 20:07
gnufreexAs well as badVistaAug 23 20:07
ThistleWebyeah more negativityAug 23 20:07
gnufreexThistleWeb: What you think they should do instead?Aug 23 20:07
ThistleWebsack the asshats who constantly come up with the negative campaign ideasAug 23 20:08
gnufreexHow should be DRM be battled ? With flowers and positivity?Aug 23 20:08
-BNi/#techrights-[openbytes/@openbytes] @agentsmith Whats the url for your blog?Aug 23 20:08
ThistleWebso a DRM free system cant be sold as a good thing? really?Aug 23 20:09
gnufreexYou have to say why DRM is bad.Aug 23 20:09
gnufreexOtherwise, you will not have DRM free sysyem, because someone will thik it is cool to put it in Linux.Aug 23 20:10
oiaohmEverything is blance.Aug 23 20:11
gnufreexYou also have to say why propriatary software is bad.Aug 23 20:11
oiaohmI do agree that FSF need to do more postive compains.Aug 23 20:11
oiaohmBut negative coverage on particular topics is required.Aug 23 20:11
ThistleWebyes, explain it, but choose the language to be less OTT, more accurate and honestAug 23 20:11
ThistleWebevery one of these campaigns I've seen from the FSF, everything is hyped up, apmed up, all negative etcAug 23 20:12
ThistleWebamped*Aug 23 20:12
gnufreexWhat is wrong with the language? I think they are trying to be understanded by non-technical crowd.Aug 23 20:12
ThistleWebnot only that but they seem determined to force their views on the world, like the gnu peepsAug 23 20:12
ThistleWebwe're fighting for your freedom, but you must agree with usAug 23 20:13
gnufreexIn Windows7sins, some things are vagueAug 23 20:13
ThistleWebyou're apparently not free to disagreeAug 23 20:13
gnufreexBut if you research, you will se it is trueAug 23 20:13
_Goblinthistleweb: I am not against the campaigns as such, more how they implement them...I think they need work on their image and the way they execute them.Aug 23 20:13
ThistleWebexactlyAug 23 20:13
oiaohmIn computer history closed source is a fairly new idea.Aug 23 20:14
ThistleWebthey do some good stuff, but each new negative campaign makes me cringeAug 23 20:14
ThistleWebit makes me want to take a sidestep away from them "I'm not with them"Aug 23 20:14
ThistleWebthe stunts too, hounding the apple genius store employeesAug 23 20:14
ThistleWebor crashing the ipad launch?Aug 23 20:15
ThistleWebgrow the fuck upAug 23 20:15
_GoblinI think it needs work and they need to play Microsoft/Apple at their own game...I think if apple or Microsoft manages to portray themselves as the "victim" then the game is up.Aug 23 20:16
gnufreexThistleWeb: Ok, tell me what should they do insted? What would be positive, but without straying away from the mission?Aug 23 20:16
ThistleWebif the FSF are bad, the GNU people are worse, they're caught in a time loop after the debate has already been settledAug 23 20:16
ThistleWebsell foss as a system designed for end users, not the vendorsAug 23 20:17
_Goblingnufreex its a good question.  I think campaigns that use a "mojave" type tactic are very good and serve the Linux exposure cause well.Aug 23 20:17
ThistleWebif you're an end user linux is built for youAug 23 20:18
ThistleWebif you're a vendor, windows is built for youAug 23 20:18
oiaohmNop ThistleWebAug 23 20:19
*ThistleWeb has lost count of the number of times some GNU arsehole has butted into a convo on identica to insist that it's called GNU / Linux, and ended up derailing the convo over a debate that's been long overAug 23 20:19
oiaohmWindows costs vendors a lot of overhead as well.Aug 23 20:19
ThistleWeboiaohm: I meant in terms of "stack it fulla crapware, get extra software bundle sales, repeat business with repairs etc"Aug 23 20:20
gnufreexThistleWeb: That is good idea. But it is hard to predict how will people will react to ANY campaign. FSF would typicaly say GNU/Linux. So some Torvalds folowers would say that FSF is devauling Linux brand. Microsoft and De Icaza folowers would try to prove that FSF is lying, and Windows is better. What I am saying, any argumment FSF pulls, somebody will bash them.Aug 23 20:21
cubevectorthat is trueAug 23 20:21
gnufreexIn fact, it is not so hard, every campaign will meet oposition, because there is a lot of FSF haters.Aug 23 20:21
ThistleWebnah you can predict that if you act like a tool, people won't be impressedAug 23 20:21
ThistleWebif the FSF dont realise some of their stunts make them act like that, then they need a serious reality checkAug 23 20:22
ThistleWeband fire the people who constantly come up with these ideas and have enough persuasive clout to get them enactedAug 23 20:22
gnufreexPeople said I should accept reality. Bullshit! I don't accept reality. -RMSAug 23 20:23
ThistleWebyeah RMS is an oddballAug 23 20:23
ThistleWebhe is NOT your average userAug 23 20:23
ThistleWebneither are weAug 23 20:23
ThistleWebaverage users dont care about any of this stuffAug 23 20:23
gnufreexI misqouted. It is "world"Aug 23 20:23
gnufreexNot "reality"Aug 23 20:24
ThistleWebwhich is why the FSF come across like tools when they pull stunts like the genius bar oneAug 23 20:24
ThistleWebif anything, those stunts just alienate the people who are inconviencedAug 23 20:24
cubevectorwell computers existed before windowsAug 23 20:24
cubevectorit's silly to think you _must_ use windows if you use a computerAug 23 20:25
ThistleWebat some point they may see this linux thing and associate it with those tools who disrupted the apple store that dayAug 23 20:25
ThistleWebthey already have a negative opinion without even trying itAug 23 20:25
ThistleWebwhere they could have been neutral without the FSFAug 23 20:26
gnufreexThistleWeb: Just look what happened when FSF anounced that Apple removed GNU Go. Everybody bashed FSF because it set of Apple fanboys who thing Apple can't do wrong.Aug 23 20:26
ThistleWebapple do a lot wrongAug 23 20:26
ThistleWebbut the FSF shoot themselves in the foot with these campaignsAug 23 20:26
gnufreexThistleWeb: It is reality distortion field.Aug 23 20:26
ThistleWebI'm not disputing thatAug 23 20:26
cubevectorlike apple doesn't try to brainwash people :)Aug 23 20:26
ThistleWebI'm saying stunts don't workAug 23 20:27
cubevectorwell I wouldn't bother myselfAug 23 20:27
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @webmink: OpenSolaris Board Resigns http://bit.ly/dbiYKQ very sad to see it have to come to this.Aug 23 20:28
TechrightsBot-trTitle: ★ OpenSolaris Governing Board Resigns « Wild Webmink .::. Size~: 42.86 KBAug 23 20:28
cubevectortoo busyAug 23 20:28
ThistleWebI aplaud the aims of the FSF but their stunts just rub me the wrong wayAug 23 20:29
cubevectorat work I use whatever tools I want to useAug 23 20:29
ThistleWeband I can't stand GNU because of the attitude of their people on identicaAug 23 20:29
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @Computerworld: HP or Dell -- which is the better suitor for 3Par? Lucas Mearian looks at what's behind the HP bid. http://bit.ly/arNBemAug 23 20:30
TechrightsBot-trTitle: HP or Dell -- which is the better suitor for 3Par? - Computerworld .::. Size~: 78.46 KBAug 23 20:30
squarepegThistleWeb: I'm going to be promoting GNU in a different way - not defensively but as a promotional campaignAug 23 20:30
ThistleWebfoss is a good thing, linux is a good thingAug 23 20:30
ThistleWebwe can be positiveAug 23 20:30
squarepegI agree, relying primarily on protest isn't the most appealing way to promote the goals and brand of the FSF and GNU.Aug 23 20:30
gnufreexOk, lets say FSF listens you and they make campaign that says: GNU/Linux is good for users, Windows is only good for vendors (who want to shacle user or something like that).Aug 23 20:30
gnufreexThen bunch of "pragmatists" come and say FSF is atacking OEMs, therefore, they make harm to Linux adoption. "If we don't bow to OEMs, linux wiall not be adopter".Aug 23 20:30
ThistleWebpeople choose us because we're the best suited for themAug 23 20:30
squarepegyeah, protest is necessary, but it's different than promotionAug 23 20:30
squarepegI'm focusing on promotionAug 23 20:31
cubevectorwhen I think GNU I think Stallman, GCC, gnumericAug 23 20:31
gnufreexEverything FSF says, some rabid haters will pervert. Been there, saw that.Aug 23 20:31
ThistleWebgnufreex: bare in mind you're comparing a single line idea off the top of my head, to what they'd probs brainstorm aboutAug 23 20:31
cubevectorgnubik sucks though :)Aug 23 20:32
cubevectorI care about GNU but they messed up gnubikAug 23 20:32
squarepegI'm not worried about it. I just need more time to work on my promotional campaign.Aug 23 20:32
squarepegIt's important to capitalize on the GNU brand and demonstrate its commercial appeal.Aug 23 20:33
cubevectorgparted is another good oneAug 23 20:33
gnufreexThistleWeb: Idea don't mater. If something can go wrong, it will. Like in Murphy's law. There are people who are paid to make sure every FSF campaign fails, and that FSF is demonized every time they speak up.Aug 23 20:33
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] Wireless crackable ID http://ur1.ca/17sgxAug 23 20:33
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] @openbytes http://tuxfunny.blogspot.com But, it's in Brazilian portuguese. Ok ? Cheers!Aug 23 20:33
squarepegI'm going to promote GNU software as if there weren't any opposition at all.Aug 23 20:33
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Tux Funny .::. Size~: 95.61 KBAug 23 20:34
ThistleWebgnufreex: yes and every stunt they pull is an own goalAug 23 20:34
cubevectorI'm not going out to a store with a megaphone yelling "Microsoft sucks" :)Aug 23 20:34
cubevectorI just like trying new OSesAug 23 20:34
ThistleWebit's almost like there's someone on the inside planning committe who wants to see them failAug 23 20:34
gnufreexThistleWeb: So we come to conclusion that FSF should roll over and die?Aug 23 20:34
cubevectorYggdrasil used the term GNU/Linux/XAug 23 20:34
cubevectorafter all, most distros use XAug 23 20:35
ThistleWebhave we? when did you conclude that?Aug 23 20:35
gnufreexThistleWeb: Well, every campaign will be countered.Aug 23 20:35
cubevectorit's really like a bus, and we get parts from everywhereAug 23 20:35
ThistleWebwe're going round in circlesAug 23 20:35
ThistleWebcubevector: yeah lol, and we pick up the odd scary stranger along the road who just sits and mubles to himselfAug 23 20:36
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @Slate: The lamest Wikipedia fights http://slate.me/9LkNPd Me: When you say Wikipedia do you really need to add 'lame?' Discuss. ;-)Aug 23 20:37
cubevectorremember X predates LinuxAug 23 20:37
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Wikipedias Lamest Edit Wars .::. Size~: 12.87 KBAug 23 20:37
cubevectorI'm sure the FSF means wellAug 23 20:37
cubevectoryou should talk to the coreboot people sometimeAug 23 20:38
ThistleWebyes they do mean well, their aims are great, their metghods of doing it sometimes leave a lot to be desiredAug 23 20:38
cubevectoryou'll hear stuff even the FSF don't talk aboutAug 23 20:38
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @georgevhulme: Creep, unaware of video camera, drops cat into trash can - http://is.gd/ezjQQ anyone in Coventry recognize this wench?Aug 23 20:39
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Middle-aged woman, unaware of video camera, drops cat into trash can - Boing Boing .::. Size~: 27.77 KBAug 23 20:39
cubevectorspending _years_ reverse engineering embedded controllersAug 23 20:40
cubevectorone guy wrote a dos program using catAug 23 20:40
ThistleWebit's a long battle, but it's a proprietary world for the forseeable futureAug 23 20:40
cubevectoror was it printf?Aug 23 20:40
cubevectorprintf I thinkAug 23 20:40
ThistleWebevery move apple make to screw their users and developers helps usAug 23 20:40
ThistleWebevery time a user faces DRM helps usAug 23 20:41
ThistleWebit puts it in a real life scenario for them, it actually affects themAug 23 20:41
cubevectorno open standards are coming along tooAug 23 20:41
gnufreex<ThistleWeb> every move apple make to screw their users and developers helps usAug 23 20:41
gnufreexYes. And when FSF points that, then they are negative, and they are bad...Aug 23 20:41
cubevectorDRM is evapourating from the online music scence as far as I can seeAug 23 20:41
ThistleWebwhile these things dont affect users, users dont careAug 23 20:41
cubevectorI've been asked to remove DRM from some stuffAug 23 20:42
*cubevector shrugsAug 23 20:42
*oiaohm has quit (Remote host closed the connection)Aug 23 20:42
cubevectorthey care if it stops them from doing something :)Aug 23 20:42
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Nmap Developers Release a Picture of the Web http://bit.ly/9oTJ4wAug 23 20:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot News Story | Nmap Developers Release a Picture of the Web .::. Size~: 48.71 KBAug 23 20:43
ThistleWebapple have been quite sly with their DRM, if peeps use various apple hardware, they tend not to be affected by it, so it's not in their mind sthat its even thereAug 23 20:43
cubevectorI bought a sports video online onceAug 23 20:43
ThistleWebbecause they're not doing stuff that bumps into the wallsAug 23 20:44
cubevectorit had DRM.... wmv with DRMAug 23 20:44
gnufreex<cubevector> they care if it stops them from doing something :)Aug 23 20:44
gnufreexWhen it gets to that point, it is too late to do campaigns. All is already setled. Kinda like GPLv3. You just not see locked down phones, that could be prevented if GPL was accepted.Aug 23 20:44
cubevectorDVD players are black boxes so to speakAug 23 20:44
cubevectoryou can't add mkv ability to themAug 23 20:45
cubevectorbut a laptop with video out... that you can reprogramAug 23 20:45
cubevectorbetter not to buy the "black box" device in the first placeAug 23 20:45
cubevectorI'm looking at you Tivo!Aug 23 20:46
cubevectoryou can imagine there's a lot of stuff I won't buyAug 23 20:47
cubevectorI don't even like DVD's reallyAug 23 20:48
ThistleWebthe dvd format is fineAug 23 20:49
ThistleWebdepends on the movie / director / studio / distributer etc whether the dvds released are close to good valueAug 23 20:49
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @ron_miller: MLB Trade Rumors is reporting the Red Sox have claimed Johny Damon on waivers from Detroit.Aug 23 20:50
ThistleWebthe LOTR extended editions take pride of place in my collectionAug 23 20:50
ThistleWebthey don't get loaned out to anyoneAug 23 20:50
cubevectorthe 8.3 filenames? that one gig per file limit?Aug 23 20:50
cubevectorno thanksAug 23 20:50
ThistleWebI dont notice file names when I put a movie in and press playAug 23 20:50
*OsamaK has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)Aug 23 20:51
cubevectorwell after you convert a few pal dvds to ntsc you noticeAug 23 20:51
ThistleWebit's about how you use stuffAug 23 20:53
cubevectorit's a cumbersome filesystemAug 23 20:53
ThistleWebwhether you notice something or notAug 23 20:53
cubevectorwe don't really use DOS much now :)Aug 23 20:53
ThistleWebdoes bluray have the unskippable trailers at the start? or did that get dropped before the final spec?Aug 23 20:54
cubevectorcheck out doom9, they would knowAug 23 20:54
cubevectornever bought a blurayAug 23 20:55
ThistleWebI heard that was one of the "features" the studios wanted to insist on giving usAug 23 20:55
*OsamaK (~Osama@fsf/member/osamak) has joined #techrightsAug 23 20:55
cubevectorwell you could dump the bluray, it's a bit of work but it's been doneAug 23 20:56
ThistleWebI have no interest in blurayAug 23 20:57
cubevectorsome folks just enjoy cracking stuff :)Aug 23 20:57
gnufreexOpenOffice gets FUDed http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/article/203910/dont_count_on_oracle_to_keep_openofficeorg_alive.html?tk=hp_newAug 23 20:58
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Don't Count on Oracle to Keep OpenOffice.org Alive - PCWorld Business Center .::. Size~: 66.11 KBAug 23 20:58
cubevectorbut yeah, it's not that appealing reallyAug 23 20:58
cubevectorI don't enjoy DRM bustingAug 23 20:58
ThistleWebthe jump from vhs to dvd was very visible on regular hardware, from dvd to bluray? not so muchAug 23 20:58
ThistleWebunless you go the whole hog and get a new HD tv tooAug 23 20:59
cubevectorquite noticeable on a hdtvAug 23 20:59
cubevectorI have a set that does 1080iAug 23 20:59
ThistleWebI reckon most peeps are like "hell, dvd is cool enough for me"Aug 23 20:59
ThistleWebdvd is nice and clear, great sound etcAug 23 20:59
cubevectorsee, I don't really like dvdAug 23 20:59
cubevectorregion codes, the 8.3 filenames, the lack of versatilityAug 23 21:00
cubevectorit's not that greatAug 23 21:00
ThistleWebyeah, again, if you only ever buy dvds from your country, you're never aware of region codes, as all your disc just workAug 23 21:01
cubevectorThistleWeb, I'm in the middle of converting a dozen Dutch DVDs to NTSCAug 23 21:01
ThistleWebyou only know about that if you buy em abroad and find the message that it's not supportedAug 23 21:01
cubevectorit's not too funAug 23 21:01
cubevectorbut this guy wants NTSC-DVD so...Aug 23 21:01
-BNi/#techrights-[laurelrusswurm/@laurelrusswurm] grrr... sticking keys... maybe i should listen to kid and disassemble keyboard to clean it... :)Aug 23 21:03
*schestowitz backAug 23 21:04
cubevectoreven dvd players that can convert PAL DVDs on the fly... they can't do mkvAug 23 21:04
schestowitzThe troll is still at itAug 23 21:04
schestowitz''[16:50] *** DaemonFC sets the channel topic to "Why is Shitzferwitz such an asshole?".""Aug 23 21:04
ThistleWebhow can he set the topic?Aug 23 21:04
ThistleWebI thought you;d closed the other channelAug 23 21:05
ThistleWebor set an autoredirect on it to come ehereAug 23 21:05
cubevectorjust ban him for a monthAug 23 21:06
cubevectorhe's being a total dick :)Aug 23 21:06
ThistleWebof course he is, it seems to be his default modeAug 23 21:06
cubevectordoes he even work?Aug 23 21:08
ThistleWebtrolling is hard workAug 23 21:08
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Now Listening: Nightcrawlers - Pushing the Feeling - On: XMMSAug 23 21:08
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Now Listening: Despretine - DJ Prezioso - On: XMMSAug 23 21:08
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] LucasFilm Skips The Jedi Mind Trick And Just Straight Up Sues 'Jedi Mind' http://dlvr.it/48lRfAug 23 21:09
TechrightsBot-trTitle: LucasFilm Skips The Jedi Mind Trick And Just Straight Up Sues 'Jedi Mind' | Techdirt .::. Size~: 21.57 KBAug 23 21:09
ThistleWebto me, this kinda shit just adds to the validity of a lifetime banAug 23 21:10
ThistleWebno attempt at remorse, change.....no nothing, just the same old shit after he's burned his bridgesAug 23 21:10
-BNi/#techrights-[osamak/@osamak] So why isn't this bug fixed already https://plugins.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/929? Could someone please do something about it? !wp !lpAug 23 21:13
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Error processing the URL:  .::. Size~: 0 KBAug 23 21:13
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] CSS-like styling for GTK - I have wanted to see this for *ages* - nice work! http://is.gd/ezn8X #gnome #gtkAug 23 21:14
TechrightsBot-trTitle: CSS-like styling for GTK+ «  Carlos Garnacho .::. Size~: 12.48 KBAug 23 21:14
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] This is always a risk, they are so tasty and delicious after all: http://yfrog.com/f/n9vimij/ #comedyAug 23 21:16
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Yfrog Image : yfrog.com/n9vimij  - Uploaded by stephenfry .::. Size~: 51.03 KBAug 23 21:16
schestowitz[18:23] <_Goblin> Acer will refund (allegedly)Aug 23 21:19
schestowitzWoohoo!Aug 23 21:19
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @jwildeboer And in that same case we have very broad e-commerce patents http://is.gd/ez45t and http://is.gd/ez4dB #swpat #failAug 23 21:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Network sales system - Patent 5715314 .::. Size~: 91.92 KBAug 23 21:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Network sales system - Patent 5909492 .::. Size~: 105.28 KBAug 23 21:20
schestowitzI was just talking about the refund with some peopleAug 23 21:20
schestowitzAh... Jono's little Microsoft plug is a PR disaster for him. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1559356Aug 23 21:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle:  Jono Bacon gives a small shout to Windows - Ubuntu Forums .::. Size~: 86.83 KBAug 23 21:20
schestowitz[18:24] <_Goblin> they require collection of my PC to nuke the system themselves (presumably)Aug 23 21:21
schestowitzDocument this with a step by step thingAug 23 21:21
schestowitzSo that others can replicate them precisely and get a refunds too, maybe from other PC makersAug 23 21:21
schestowitzuse a wiki if it helpsAug 23 21:21
schestowitzSubmit to Slashdot and spreadAug 23 21:21
schestowitzOthers can then apply to other OEMs and get the ball rollingAug 23 21:21
schestowitzBaea thorn in SteveB's evection seatAug 23 21:22
schestowitz*ejectionAug 23 21:22
cubevectoryou know what's funny?Aug 23 21:22
schestowitzGo ahead..Aug 23 21:22
cubevectorMicrosoft is telling people to avoid the "Apple Tax"Aug 23 21:22
schestowitzHehAug 23 21:22
ThistleWebthat one link, to what 7 posts on the ubuntu forum? hardly a disasterAug 23 21:22
schestowitzI knowAug 23 21:22
schestowitzOId newsAug 23 21:22
MinceRavoid the crApple tax, avoid the m$ taxAug 23 21:23
ThistleWeba thread that only started 4hrs ago tooAug 23 21:23
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Now Listening: ByeOpenner - Open your Eyes - On: XMMSAug 23 21:23
cubevectoralso funny: Apple Fanboys commenting on the blog defending their precious Apple :)Aug 23 21:24
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] RT @openbytes My quest for a #windows7 refund has gone well. Apparently #Acer will be refunding me. I'll keep people posted! #vista7Aug 23 21:25
cubevectorI like those Xerox Stars thoughAug 23 21:26
schestowitz[20:23] <gnufreex> People said I should accept reality. Bullshit! I don't accept reality. -RMSAug 23 21:27
schestowitzDidn't he say "the world"?Aug 23 21:27
schestowitz[20:23] <ThistleWeb> yeah RMS is an oddballAug 23 21:27
schestowitzEccentric maybeAug 23 21:28
ThistleWebyepAug 23 21:28
gnufreexI corrected later. It is "the world"Aug 23 21:28
ThistleWebhe is not your average userAug 23 21:28
schestowitzThe world's most brilliant minds were off the mean/median of social attributesAug 23 21:28
schestowitzRMS has already made the most widely uses s/w licenceAug 23 21:28
schestowitz*usedAug 23 21:28
ThistleWebhe is happy to cut himself off from a lot of the web, because of his principles, most people are pragmaticAug 23 21:28
schestowitzName one scientist who was ultr-richAug 23 21:28
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Now Listening: 12. Martjin Ten Velden - I Wis - On: XMMSAug 23 21:28
-BNi/#techrights-[rms/@rms] FCO Report nixed http://ur1.ca/17t19Aug 23 21:29
schestowitzDon't name Edison, he was a roibbing business man, like GatesAug 23 21:29
gnufreexAnd most widely used compiler. And Emacs implementation.Aug 23 21:29
schestowitzName one Earth-shaking scientist who had tactAug 23 21:29
schestowitz<ThistleWeb> he is happy to cut himself off from a lot of the web, because of his principles, most people are pragmaticAug 23 21:29
schestowitzHe doesn't need to be pragmaticAug 23 21:30
schestowitzAs he told me, he can have more impact through people whom he inspiredAug 23 21:30
ThistleWebRMS lives his beliefAug 23 21:30
gnufreexNote that Emacs is not invented by Stallman, it is type of editors. GNU Emacs is so popular that people think GNU Emacs is THE Emacs.Aug 23 21:30
cubevectorFischer, Stallman, William James SidisAug 23 21:30
schestowitzIt's a spiritual/role model appointmentAug 23 21:30
cubevectorSidis had odd habitsAug 23 21:30
schestowitzhe mostly does E-mail nowAug 23 21:30
schestowitzLinus tooAug 23 21:30
schestowitzJust manages peoplweAug 23 21:30
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Skills Needed For a Future In IT http://bit.ly/c9I2WoAug 23 21:31
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot IT Story | Skills Needed For a Future In IT .::. Size~: 49.07 KBAug 23 21:31
*schestowitz can relate to RMS' choicesAug 23 21:31
cubevectorI always liked vi betterAug 23 21:31
schestowitzheretic!Aug 23 21:31
cubevectornot trying to start a flame war :)Aug 23 21:31
schestowitzkisckban cubevectorAug 23 21:31
schestowitz:-pAug 23 21:31
ThistleWebnano works for me when I need a terminal editorAug 23 21:31
cubevectorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_James_SidisAug 23 21:32
TechrightsBot-trTitle: William James Sidis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .::. Size~: 69.33 KBAug 23 21:32
schestowitzvi for vandettaAug 23 21:32
gnufreexhahaAug 23 21:32
ThistleWebgotta say though, I'm getting more and more impressed with bluefishAug 23 21:32
schestowitz:-)Aug 23 21:33
ThistleWebit seems to be rather nice for cssAug 23 21:33
ThistleWebI used to like it for html but never considered it for cssAug 23 21:33
schestowitzdaemonTroll still gives me PM abuseAug 23 21:33
_Goblintalking of trolls...Aug 23 21:33
_Goblinrobotroll has returnedAug 23 21:33
cubevectorit's the Daemon from Hell!!!1 ;-)Aug 23 21:33
_Goblinon my blogAug 23 21:33
ThistleWebhe assumes if he keeps it up, you'll feel sorry for him and cave in, so he's back to business as usualAug 23 21:34
cubevectorI prefer RobotronAug 23 21:34
schestowitzIt nymshiftsAug 23 21:34
schestowitzSOmetimes to names of distros IIRCAug 23 21:34
cubevectoryeah don't reward his abusive behaviourAug 23 21:34
_Goblinschestowitz: thanks for the credit for my  photo on your site, but you didn't need to...whats mine is yours and all that..Aug 23 21:34
schestowitzI think it might be the same one who comment from WIndows under Linux namesAug 23 21:34
schestowitz_Goblin: heheAug 23 21:35
schestowitzI owe you boozeAug 23 21:35
_Goblinlol...Aug 23 21:35
_Goblinwhat 1 can?Aug 23 21:35
schestowitzNext time it'll be meAug 23 21:35
ThistleWebbooooo boooooAug 23 21:35
ThistleWeb^^ boo'sAug 23 21:35
schestowitz:-(Aug 23 21:35
schestowitzBuga booAug 23 21:35
ThistleWebnot to be confused with Yogi Bear's lil mateAug 23 21:35
schestowitzPooh?Aug 23 21:35
cubevectorSidis died in 1944 of a cerebral hemorrhage in Boston at the age of 46Aug 23 21:35
ThistleWebBooBooAug 23 21:36
cubevectorlike Fischer he died young, even younger than FischerAug 23 21:36
schestowitzThere's this book, "cooking with Pooh"Aug 23 21:36
schestowitzIt's on the Jay Leno's showAug 23 21:36
schestowitzaround 2002Aug 23 21:36
ThistleWebayyyyeeeee smarter than the average bearAug 23 21:36
_Goblinoh nearly forgot....worked out my flash prob.....Aug 23 21:36
cubevectorah, not the best name :-PAug 23 21:36
schestowitzcubevector: which one?Aug 23 21:36
schestowitzThe Hurd Delilah?Aug 23 21:36
cubevectorCooking with PoohAug 23 21:36
schestowitzThe grandmaster?Aug 23 21:36
ThistleWeblol, yeahAug 23 21:37
_Goblinits with 64bit ver....not my fault...damn that Adobe...Aug 23 21:37
cubevectoroh Fischer the chess dudeAug 23 21:37
schestowitzgnufreex: katherine plays the FUD card for traffic nowAug 23 21:37
schestowitzOOOoAug 23 21:37
_Goblina quick reboot in a minute...I want to check some changes Ive made havent hosed the system......Aug 23 21:38
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Alguém já trabalhou com o PHPMyAdmin ? Não consigo importar um BD muito pequeno. Sempre dá erro. Alguma dica ?Aug 23 21:38
schestowitz.Aug 23 21:39
schestowitz[21:37] <cubevector> oh Fischer the chess dudeAug 23 21:39
schestowitzHe's an interesting due, but rather scary mindAug 23 21:39
schestowitzI once watched some shows about him on YouTube, trying to understand what he went throughAug 23 21:40
schestowitzBut then you need to get off the US media productionAug 23 21:40
schestowitzThey have the reasons to portray him negatively... the pride the went insaneAug 23 21:40
schestowitzThen you can find rare interviews with him...Aug 23 21:41
schestowitzExcerpted versions of all sort of "enemies of the West" are selective and built to daemoniseAug 23 21:41
*schestowitz resumes posting (15 so far today)Aug 23 21:45
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Has any1 ever worked with PHPMyAdmin ? I can't import a very little DB. Always error occurs. Any tips ?Aug 23 21:48
_Goblinok....wish me luck....all being well, I'll be back here in about 10 minsAug 23 21:53
_Goblinhere goes.....Aug 23 21:53
*_Goblin has quit (Quit: Lost terminal)Aug 23 21:53
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] EU: Advocate General on Community Patent and Software Patents Still at Stake http://ur1.ca/17t99 #eu #epo #upls #swpatsAug 23 21:55
TechrightsBot-trTitle: EU: Advocate General on Community Patent and Software Patents Still at Stake  | Techrights .::. Size~: 97.13 KBAug 23 21:55
schestowitzwhat did he just do?Aug 23 21:55
*ThistleWeb has quit (Quit: Ex-Chat)Aug 23 21:56
-TRT/#techrights-[jonobacon] How do you think we can get more developers interested in Ubuntu? http://is.gd/ezrcD #ubuntuAug 23 21:58
TechrightsBot-trTitle:                   Getting More Developers Interested In Participating In Ubuntu | jonobacon@home                     .::. Size~: 23.6 KBAug 23 21:58
-BNi/#techrights-[agentsmith/@agentsmith] Now Listening: Better Off Alone - Alice DJ On: XMMSAug 23 21:58
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] DRM Strikes Again: Samsung Blu-ray Firmware Update Means No Warner Or Universal Movies http://dlvr.it/48qRJAug 23 22:02
TechrightsBot-trTitle: DRM Strikes Again: Samsung Blu-ray Firmware Update Means No Warner Or Universal Movies | Techdirt .::. Size~: 26.02 KBAug 23 22:02
*_Goblin (~goblin@94-193-188-104.zone7.bethere.co.uk) has joined #techrightsAug 23 22:03
_Goblinhooray...Aug 23 22:03
_Goblinno issuesAug 23 22:03
_Goblinno hosed system.Aug 23 22:03
MinceR:)Aug 23 22:03
gnufreexWhen is Novell expected to anounce results? I thought it's today.Aug 23 22:12
gnufreexBut gues not.Aug 23 22:12
MinceRdifferent timezone, perhaps?Aug 23 22:13
gnufreexI am in +1Aug 23 22:13
MinceRnovell probably isn't in UTC+1 :>Aug 23 22:14
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Microsoft Claims 'We Love Open Source' http://bit.ly/bLQekyAug 23 22:19
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @DeviceGuru: PopBox STB to ship soon, but sans Netflix, Pandora: http://bit.ly/cPiLE7Aug 23 22:19
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot Technology Story | Microsoft Claims 'We Love Open Source' .::. Size~: 50.84 KBAug 23 22:19
TechrightsBot-trTitle: DeviceGuru   » PopBox STB to ship soon, but sans Netflix, Pandora .::. Size~: 47.97 KBAug 23 22:19
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] 'North Korea Linux (Red Star OS) | Desktop Linux Reviews' http://is.gd/ezt02Aug 23 22:20
TechrightsBot-trTitle: North Korea Linux (Red Star OS) | Desktop Linux Reviews .::. Size~: 97.77 KBAug 23 22:20
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] RT @Joab_Jackson: Leap seconds may be killed (Computerworld) http://bit.ly/9zawUw Me: No!! Seriously. No!Aug 23 22:30
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Time waits for no one: 'leap seconds' may be cut - Computerworld .::. Size~: 77.85 KBAug 23 22:30
schestowitzhttp://identi.ca/conversation/46816649#notice-47188865 "Software patents is pretty much crap. I sincerely hope Europe will stay cold towards it."Aug 23 22:30
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Conversation - Identi.ca .::. Size~: 9.2 KBAug 23 22:30
schestowitz_Goblin: I'm doing a post re refundsAug 23 22:30
schestowitzJust a few mins left to proofreadAug 23 22:30
schestowitzgnufreex: 26thAug 23 22:30
schestowitzGeezAug 23 22:32
schestowitzSlashdot now pushes the IDG whitewash about Microsoft? What is this, PR?Aug 23 22:32
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Vista7 Defeated by Disobedient 'Consumers', But Florian Müller Likes it and Makes Friends With #Microsoft Apologists http://ur1.ca/17tjfAug 23 22:37
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Vista 7 Defeated by Disobedient Consumers, But Florian Müller Likes it and Makes Friends With Microsoft Apologists | Techrights .::. Size~: 100.25 KBAug 23 22:37
_Goblinschestowitz: Excellent!Aug 23 22:53
-TRT/#techrights-[techdirt] Philadelphia Demanding Business License For Bloggers Who Bring In A Bit Of Cash http://dlvr.it/48vkmAug 23 22:53
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Philadelphia Demanding Business License For Bloggers Who Bring In A Bit Of Cash | Techdirt .::. Size~: 20.45 KBAug 23 22:53
schestowitzWas I not too harsh on FLorian?Aug 23 22:53
schestowitzI couldn't resistAug 23 22:53
schestowitzWe have many Ballmer sets now of tongue-sticking figurinesAug 23 22:53
_Goblinschestowitz: Now I just need to organize collection date and get a refund, however I will argue that I shouldn't have to send my machine off....Aug 23 22:54
schestowitzNeed instructions with wikiAug 23 22:54
schestowitzFor people to refine based on own experiencesAug 23 22:54
_GoblinI hope its not merely Acer being pro-customer....Aug 23 22:54
schestowitzThe ultimate refund guide, with "if (a), go to step (x)"Aug 23 22:54
schestowitzAcer hates VistaAug 23 22:55
schestowitzLanciAug 23 22:55
schestowitzIt's good for other reasonsAug 23 22:55
schestowitzmany refunds like this and Acer will have a stronger case to sell more AndroidAug 23 22:55
_GoblinI must say, Comet, Acer and infact the whole experience of buying a machine was great.  The weak link was the unwanted Microsoft product.Aug 23 22:55
-TRT/#techrights-[sjvn] What's gone wrong with the Android 2.2 Froyo rollout? By @pgralla http://bit.ly/bdRTBJAug 23 23:00
TechrightsBot-trTitle: What's gone wrong with the Android 2.2 Froyo rollout? - Computerworld Blogs .::. Size~: 59.4 KBAug 23 23:00
-BNi/#techrights-[laurelrusswurm/@laurelrusswurm] I know it's not Alexander Dumas, H.G. Welles, Mark Twain, Tesla, Houdini, or Edgar Allan Poe so my best guess would be Jules VerneAug 23 23:03
-TRT/#techrights-[slashdot] Los Angeles Unveils $578 Million Public School http://bit.ly/aNE08hAug 23 23:07
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Slashdot News Story | Los Angeles Unveils $578 Million Public School .::. Size~: 49.11 KBAug 23 23:07
cubevector_Goblin, so you got your windows refund?Aug 23 23:07
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @openbytes My quest for a !windows7 refund has gone well. Apparently !Acer will be refunding me. I'll keep people posted! #vista7Aug 23 23:08
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] #Groklaw Responds to #FUD About #OIN http://ur1.ca/17tsd Response to the noise made by a “campaigner” for hireAug 23 23:13
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Groklaw Responds to FUD About OIN | Techrights .::. Size~: 98.59 KBAug 23 23:13
*OsamaK has quit (Quit: Leaving)Aug 23 23:17
_Goblincubevector: nearly.....Aug 23 23:18
-BNi/#techrights-[openbytes/@openbytes] Philadelphia Demanding Business License For Bloggers - http://tinyurl.com/2882x6c !linux !windows !blogger !taxAug 23 23:18
_Goblincubevector: Acer have accepted the responsibility....Aug 23 23:18
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Philadelphia Demanding Business License For Bloggers Who Bring In A Bit Of Cash | Techdirt .::. Size~: 24.12 KBAug 23 23:18
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @ksaver: 10 differences between !Linux and !BSD: http://ur1.ca/17rqpAug 23 23:23
-BNi/#techrights-[rsandu/@rsandu] ♺ @openbytes: Techrights covers the issue of !windows7 refunds http://techrights.org/2010/08/23/campaign-for-refunds/ !linux !microsoftAug 23 23:23
TechrightsBot-trTitle: 10 differences between Linux and BSD - Open Source - Techguide .::. Size~: 69.24 KBAug 23 23:24
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Techrights Announces TechCHOICES Initiative: Get Your Vista 7 Refund and Show the World How to Do It | Techrights .::. Size~: 104.27 KBAug 23 23:24
schestowitzhttp://www.dedoimedo.com/games/reviving/games-through-dosbox-3.htmlAug 23 23:39
TechrightsBot-trTitle:       Games resurrected using DOSBox - Part 3     .::. Size~: 12.03 KBAug 23 23:39
schestowitzhttp://djberg96.livejournal.com/176961.htmlAug 23 23:43
TechrightsBot-trTitle: djberg96: Ubuntu fail .::. Size~: 26.89 KBAug 23 23:43
gnufreexschestowitz: Nice post. About refund.Aug 23 23:43
schestowitzWhich one?Aug 23 23:43
schestowitzI did 2Aug 23 23:43
-TRT/#techrights-[schestowitz] For those who think that #gnu #linux is just cheap #vista7 http://ur1.ca/17u0e http://ur1.ca/17u0fAug 23 23:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: W7 Theme - Maties Ubuntu .::. Size~: 13.59 KBAug 23 23:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: W7 Theme for Ubuntu Brings Windows 7's Familiar GUI to Linux .::. Size~: 78.97 KBAug 23 23:44
gnufreexI read just oneAug 23 23:44
gnufreexhttp://techrights.org/2010/08/23/campaign-for-refunds/Aug 23 23:44
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Techrights Announces TechCHOICES Initiative: Get Your Vista 7 Refund and Show the World How to Do It | Techrights .::. Size~: 104.27 KBAug 23 23:44
gnufreexSecond is with Floyd. It will be nice to see if he responds.Aug 23 23:45
gnufreexwith /aboutAug 23 23:45
cubevectoryeah see I don't want linux to look like windows 7Aug 23 23:46
gnufreexWindows 7 is KDE ripoff.Aug 23 23:46
cubevectorok, I didn't see that :)Aug 23 23:47
cubevectorI just see a big fat memory hogAug 23 23:47
gnufreexWho Windows or KDE?Aug 23 23:47
schestowitzgnufreex: his flunkies respondedAug 23 23:48
cubevectorurm, you're putting me on the spot a bitAug 23 23:48
schestowitzThe stalker for one thing; http://twitter.com/Elland_RoadAug 23 23:48
cubevectorto a degree, bothAug 23 23:48
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Dr. Elland Road (Elland_Road) on Twitter .::. Size~: 44.61 KBAug 23 23:48
schestowitzI should put him on ignore, he's ping-spamming/abusing meAug 23 23:48
cubevectorKDE >=4 eats the ram too muchAug 23 23:48
schestowitzcubevector: so feed it more RAMAug 23 23:49
gnufreexSo, Floyd got some folowers.Aug 23 23:49
schestowitzBe careful thoughAug 23 23:49
gnufreexMostly idiots.Aug 23 23:49
schestowitzIt could bite your fingerAug 23 23:49
cubevectorschestowitz, what about my 486? It's maxed out at 16 megs of ramAug 23 23:49
schestowitzgnufreex: it's a Microsottish clanAug 23 23:49
schestowitzFormer employees and stuffAug 23 23:49
cubevectoryou see, it can't fit on thereAug 23 23:49
schestowitzkde4 on 16mb??Aug 23 23:50
cubevectorkde any version can't fit on 16 megs of ramAug 23 23:50
cubevectornot even version 1Aug 23 23:50
gnufreexHaha. Lets expose them, do you have the names of Ex-Microsofties... and proof they worked at Microsoft? If you do, it's smoking gun. schestowitzAug 23 23:50
schestowitzI reckon people already knowAug 23 23:51
schestowitzTHey view is as personal attacksAug 23 23:51
schestowitzhttp://techrights.org/2009/06/01/banning-opposition-to-mono/Aug 23 23:53
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Does Ubuntu Forums Threaten to Ban Opposition to Mono? | Techrights .::. Size~: 122.55 KBAug 23 23:53
schestowitzhttp://techrights.org/2009/06/13/comments-forums-ubuntu-re-mono-deleted/Aug 23 23:53
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Criticism of Mono Now “Disappearing” | Techrights .::. Size~: 101.67 KBAug 23 23:53
gnufreexInteresting, all Microsofties are following FreeBSD and PC-BSD. That is their entry point. Some BSD zealots would like even to colaborate with Microsoft to bring Linux down. Fortunately, they are minority in BSD community.Aug 23 23:54
schestowitzhttp://techrights.org/2008/08/21/mono-guard-alternatealias/Aug 23 23:54
TechrightsBot-trTitle: Mono Guard Found in Ubuntu Forums  | Techrights .::. Size~: 110.14 KBAug 23 23:54
schestowitzThis a breakdown of a Mono boosterAug 23 23:54
schestowitzAt UF they guard mono proponentsAug 23 23:54
schestowitzSceptics have their posts/accounts thrown outAug 23 23:54
schestowitzMicrosoft is goodAug 23 23:54
schestowitzFSF is badAug 23 23:54
schestowitzAnyway, that's old newAug 23 23:55
schestowitzIt led Jason to create a site against MonoAug 23 23:55
cubevectorreally it's all a mixAug 23 23:55
schestowitzAfter his posts in UF got deletedAug 23 23:55
cubevectorlinux is cross-pollenated with GNU, BSD and a bunch of other stuffAug 23 23:55
gnufreexWay to go Roy, alternatealias is one of Mono bosters I forgot about.Aug 23 23:56
gnufreexzekopeko is anotherAug 23 23:56
gnufreexI just saw, this is old post.Aug 23 23:58
cubevector"BSD systems today use some GNU programs, just as the GNU system and its variants use some BSD programs; however, taken as wholes, they are two different systems that evolved separately. The BSD developers did not write a kernel and add it to the GNU system"Aug 23 23:59

Generated by irclog2html.py 2.6 by Marius Gedminas - find it at mg.pov.lt!