EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

06.01.09

Does Ubuntu Forums Threaten to Ban Opposition to Mono?

Posted in GNU/Linux, Microsoft, Mono, Novell, Ubuntu at 7:10 pm by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

No entry fence
Barbwired discussions about Mono

Summary: Suppression of constructive debate about the problems with Novell’s Mono

THERE EXIST people who are guarding Mono inside Ubuntu. Others are actually becoming part of Ubuntu and they curse those who ‘dare’ to question Mono’s inclusion. But our very latest examples show polite requests and advise leading to fear and loathing, then to threat of bans.

This is openness to discussion?

This is freedom?

And why is it that the project permits itself to be guided by pro-Microsoft .NET people? People who knowingly ignore the problems and maybe want to introduce them. ECMA is a liability, not a safe harbour.

There is a new call to prevent Novell's Banshee from entering Ubuntu and ITwire offers guidance to those who rid themselves from Mono.

GNU/Linux users who want to keep Mono off their systems can now use an application that warns them when elements of the open source clone of Microsoft’s .NET development environment are being installed.

Developer Tim Chase, who describes himself as “a genetic geek”, has created a package called Mononono which creates explicit conflicts with core Mono packages.

In the face of mountains of evidence, some people simply refuse to open their eyes and recognise that Mono is a patent trap and an advantage to Microsoft.

“I saw that internally inside Microsoft many times when I was told to stay away from supporting Mono in public. They reserve the right to sue”

Robert Scoble, former Microsoft evangelist

Share this post: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Reddit
  • co.mments
  • DZone
  • email
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
  • NewsVine
  • Print
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Facebook

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

26 Comments

  1. Dan O'Brian said,

    June 2, 2009 at 8:14 am

    Gravatar

    I encourage the readers of this article to actually read the ubuntu forum links, where you will find comment like this from the moderator in response to Roy Schestowitz’s friend, Neighborlee:

    The post in question was placed on a thread that was over 2 months old. As such your posting style was determined to be off topic and disruptive for the reasons already given to you. As such I also support the actions of the staff.

    I would also remind you that while you are also welcome to and entitled to your opinion this does not give you the right to either insult others, disrespect the choices of others, or rant about your opinion on these forums.

    If someone chooses to use Mono you need to be respectful of their choice.

  2. Märklin said,

    June 2, 2009 at 9:21 am

    Gravatar

    Well-spoken, Dan.

  3. Lyle Howard Seave said,

    June 2, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    Gravatar

    I’ve always thought it deliciously ironic that Icaza started Gnome because he didnt like the purity of the then non-free Qt widget toolkit in the free software KDE project and now he is on the other side of a similar battle. (someone wrote that we all become our fathers eventually complaining that the music is too loud, that kids have no respect and so on.)

    I also noticed that the venom from people who dont even want to discuss mono pretty high. We debate and discuss everything in free software but mono to some people is a taboo subject. Bringing it up will get you labelled all kinds of names.

    I’m just curious if Icaza and others were greeted with the same venom by the KDE community then when they started Gnome that they are now directing to those who would question mono.

    When people start complaining about ‘content style’, you know where things are headed. I dont think that name calling should be tolerated but forbidding something because it might prove to be provocative, would Gnome even exist if those who bashed KDE for not being pure enough a dozen years ago werent allowed to express provocative thoughts on mailing lists and forums back then?
    Do as I say, not as I do it seems.

    Stay on safe subjects like fonts and wallpapers but dont talk about something that people wont agree with because that could lead to arguments.

    There are many people in the world who love to debate (heck, debate clubs and competitions are actually a team event in some school districts.) and can do it with civility. The best of those have such good command of language and opinions that they can just as easily take either side of a debate and do a good job.
    Then there are other people who dont like confrontations or any kind, who would just rather not rock the boat and who feel uncomfortable in any kind of antagonistic situation no matter the level of discourse and civility and shy away from it.

    There are still a few countries in the world that believes that discussion and debate have to be stifled for the greater good of the nation and its a shame that this is a model some have chosen to follow.

    Having things in the open is the reason why free software has succeeded and while in no way do i think that flame wars are a good idea, most of the FLOSS leaders are provocative to an extreme (hey Linus!) and we honour them for it. Some call it candor.

    Freedom for some, not for others?

    LHS

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    There are questions that are hard for them to answer.

  4. 123 said,

    June 8, 2009 at 8:15 pm

    Gravatar

    I think you guys are misunderstanding the point at Ubuntuforums (UF). The UF moderators are not threatening to ban opposition to Mono, they are trying to control incivility.

    When a person asks about how to install the latest version of Mono so that person can use a certain program, the UF moderators expect the responses to help the user to install Mono. When someone else brings up in that very same thread that Mono is dangerous as a potential patent timebomb, the UF moderators consider it off topic.

    If you really want to see if the Ubuntu forums are trying to ban opposition to Mono, then I suggest this experiment: start a new thread discussing the nature of Mono and opinions about the potential dangers. If you do this, then the UF moderators can’t complain that the contributions to that thread are off topic or needlessly argumentative as the whole point is the discussion of Mono. If the UF moderators do take action in this thread that isn’t related to incivility, then you have more evidence to show that the UF are truly against the opposition to Mono.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    What I came across was very polite and not repetitive given the presented evidence. Look at it and judge for yourself.

    123 Reply:

    I agree with you in the case of the user “neighborlee”. I believe that neighborlee was indeed polite and intending to be helpful. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what we think because we are not UF moderators.

    I don’t really agree with the UF moderators, and it appears to me the UF moderators believed that neighborlee was out of line for following reasons: bumping an old topic (this in itself should normally be overlooked in most situations), posting aggressively and being off topic (the topic was about help for installing Mono), and being misinformed (the understanding is that Mono is free software as it is licensed under GPL2 and other free licenses).

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    As I’ve been glancing over these threads for months, I’ll comment quickly on their reasons, which do not convince me:

    bumping an old topic (this in itself should normally be overlooked in most situations)

    I think it’s the recurrence of (unresolved) topics that they did not like.

    posting aggressively

    What does it mean? Aggressive language? Posting volume? neighborlee does neither. If it’s the topic that they consider aggressive (Mono and patents), then I am left unmoved. These are some of the most important topics. Just ignoring them won’t make them go away. People tend to believe what’s easy and convenient.

    and being off topic (the topic was about help for installing Mono),

    OK. They could argue that it’s disruptive to warn about something in a platform/forums that’s encouraging that same something.

    and being misinformed (the understanding is that Mono is free software as it is licensed under GPL2 and other free licenses).

    Slated rightly coined the phrase “Poisonware”, meaning software which is inherently encumbered with patent liability. Mono may be Free sofwawre as-is, but being “Poisonware” is not mutually exclusive wrt other attributes. Learn what Microsoft has aid publicly about Mono.

  5. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    June 11, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Gravatar

    Evidently Mark Fink’s idea of “freedom” is attempting to sabotage people’s jobs, and supporting people who attempt to do so. As I commented on the ubuntu-devel list, when zealots lose sight of the fact that their opponents are also real human beings, there’s no end (no bottom) really to the sort of behavior to which they’ll sink: they’ll try to get your boss to fire you, they’l kill your cat, they’ll burn down your house, all because their particular hobbyhorse is so much more overridingly important than _you_ are.

    Mark should be deeply ashamed. You should be deeply ashamed to be associated with such shenanigans. Don’t like Mono? Don’t use it, by all means, no one’s forcing you to. But please don’t treat folks who don’t agree with you as potential “collateral damage”. That’s simply _evil_.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Yes, I saw that thread (someone told me) and it made us look bad. Please don’t judge our message by those who link to it.

    Dan O'Brian Reply:

    His messages was YOUR message. He repeated the same lies that you’ve been repeating.

    This is why you should be ashamed.

    Sure, he took it to the next level, but that doesn’t put you in the clear.

    Lyle Howard Seave Reply:

    >His messages was YOUR message. He repeated the same >lies that you’ve been repeating.

    Actually, you are the one lying.
    What Mark did is nothing like Roy does since he has to my knowledge always managed to keep a level of civility which I find admirable.
    You on the other hand are at the level of “Have you stopped beating your wife?”

    >This is why you should be ashamed.
    Not as much as you should for trying to tie these two things together.

    >Sure, he took it to the next level, but that doesn’t
    >put you in the clear.

    So, if some Ipod fanboi decides to go into a store and destroy all Zunes, you would blame Apple.

    I dont think even you believe that.

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Come on, Roy, what else would I judge your “message” by, having had my sabbatical interrupted in order to have to explain to my manager why he was suddenly getting irrational mail from apparently thwarted infants…?

    As I said, the message I get is that you put your concerns above any other considerations, including other people’s real lives.

    If you want your message to be judged in some different fashion, you’d better find some more effective spokespeople. As Nietzsche sagely observed, “He who fights monsters must be careful that he does not become a monster himself in the process.”

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I’m deeply sorry for that. I don’t know who Fink is.

    Lyle Howard Seave Reply:

    >Come on, Roy, what else would I judge your “message” by, >having had my sabbatical interrupted in order to have to >explain to my manager

    As unfortunate as that may be for you, your solution would be what? To stop this site because it incites people? We’d have to close down the net. Manners and civility is something you take up with that person and the parents who didnt raise them properly.

    >As I said, the message I get is that you put your concerns >above any other considerations, including other people’s >real lives.
    So the fact that the Novell deal has affected my life and work as a “Non-Compensated AND Compensated Individual Hobbyist Developer” should not be taken in consideration?
    Everything in life has consequences. Every word you write will get a positive, negative or indefferent reaction.
    Look at Helios and the fistfight he got into. To the yahoos who attacked him, he is the guy who is promoting Linux and therefore taking money out of their pockets. (I would never blame Steve Ballmer for their behaviour.)

    Im sure that if BN didnt exist it might make life easier for some but probably not for others. It all balances out in the end but nothing ever affects ‘just me’.

    >you’d better find some more effective spokespeople.

    Again, why is it you seem to believe Roy has found and ordered these people to act as his spokespeople?
    Because they visit his site?
    I can be Britney Spears ‘spokesman online’ if I so desire and there is nothing she can do about that. It doesnt mean that what I say should be represented as being her opinion.

    Anyone who has frequented the internet, forums, comments sections and the such knows very well how people think, act and react in the anonymity the net provides them.
    I find it surprising that you dont.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Lyle,

    In all fairness, David is a victim here. I have just pulled the address of Fink from the Ubuntu mailing list and denounced him privately.

    We actually have similar issues in IRC. People pretend to speak for the site (badly) and then link to IRC logs (what they had ‘planted’) as ‘proof’ that ‘we’ are over the edge.

    I believe sincerely that my posts are polite. That’s why Groklaw blocks comments from being indexed.

  6. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    June 11, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Gravatar

    Perhaps it would be wise for you to put a prominent notice on the front page of this site stating that Mark Fink is not your spokesperson, that you have no association with him, and that you take no responsibility for any of his actions or potentially defamatory statements.

    His postings and his statements give every possible impression that he’s acting on behalf of this site.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I don’t think he ever commented in this site or participated in IRC. Maybe it’s a vendetta against Ubuntu, which I use on 3 computers by the way.

  7. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    June 11, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    Gravatar

    I appreciate the apology, by the way.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    Should I try contacting that troublemaker?

    David "Lefty" Schlesinger Reply:

    Feel free, by all means. As I’ve suggested, he’s actually a bigger problem for you than he is for me: he’s made a variety of statements about a variety of people that I’d think verge on libel, and if there’s any question about his association with your efforts, you’re at risk of getting tarred with the brush that’s meant for him.

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I’ve just made this post. The past week has been crazy as we’ve had people try to portray us as a rude site with vulgar language, racism and the like. I’m not sure how to deal with this other than starting a censorship policy.

  8. David "Lefty" Schlesinger said,

    June 11, 2009 at 8:18 pm

    Gravatar

    Lyle, I never suggested “shutting down this site”, rather making it clear that some of the folks who are apparently portraying themselves as speaking for this site are not actually associated with it.

    Mark Fink consistently includes this site’s address, and no other, in his email sig, just as though it were his own, and speaks as though he were representing this site.

    Actually, if you portray yourself as “Brittany Spears’ spokeperson” on the web, you’ll rapidly find yourself in possession of a cease-and-desist letter from Ms. Spears’ _real_ representatives, and a civil lawsuit shortly thereafter for misrepresenting yourself and potentially for defamation if you don’t, in fact, cease and desist from doing so.

    And, having been a participant in alt.flame when it was _net.flame_, and having been in continuous possession of an email address from the time “the Internet” was “the ARPAnet”, I daresay I’m a lot more familiar with the kind of idiocies people are likely to commit than you probably are… (I wrote message processing code for PDP-based IMPs as a student at NYU in the 1970s.)

    But thanks for being presumptuous!

    Roy Schestowitz Reply:

    I think Ubuntu ought to have closed the mailing lists a little bit after last year’s incident. This guy is a ‘repeat offender’ in the sense that he misrepresents this site (only by linking to it though) and insulting people. There are other ways of incitement. Some people use my name to insult my friends and journalists. They try to prevent people from accepting the site using fifth-column techniques.

    Dan O'Brian Reply:

    Trying to weasel out of the blame, eh Roy?

    Dan O'Brian Reply:

    David,

    Mark Fink has appeared on this site before and afaict is repeating statements made by Roy Schestowitz previously on this site, including the slanderous statements about Miguel de Icaza.

What Else is New


  1. Nothing Whatsoever Has Improved at the European Patent Office, It's Just Summer's Recess (and Silence)

    The European Patent Office (EPO) has done absolutely nothing to improve the work atmosphere, it just alters the marketing strategy somewhat



  2. Links 28/8/2016: Q4OS 1.6, ConnochaetOS 14.2

    Links for the day



  3. The United States Has Gotten Over Software Patents

    A roundup of new articles about software patents in the United States, 2 years into the post-Alice era (the US Supreme Court deeming patents on software too abstract to have merit)



  4. More Lies From President Benoît Battistelli and the EPO Crisis Which Continues to Deepen

    The European Patent Office (EPO), collectively speaking, is still wrestling with a Battistelli infiltration (a circle of high-level managers) which habitually lies and viciously attacks those who dare counter these lies



  5. Links 27/8/2016: Torvalds and GPL, “DOD Must Embrace Open-Source Software”

    Links for the day



  6. Links 26/8/2016: Maru OS Resurfaces, Android More Reliable Than 'i' Things, PC-BSD Becomes TrueOS

    Links for the day



  7. Good Job, David Kappos, Says the 'Boss' (IBM)

    Responses to the latest call against Alice (eliminator of many software patents), courtesy of the man from IBM (still paid by IBM) who was responsible for the policy that blindly approved a lot of software patents in the US



  8. Being for Patent Quality or Against Patenting Excess Does Not Make You Anti-Patents

    Like IAM, which tries to portray sceptics and critics of software patents as "anti-patents", IP Watchdog (or Watchtroll as we call it) is 'trolling' the Electronic Frontier Foundation, simply because it expressed an opinion that patent maximalists cannot tolerate



  9. Erosion of Patent Quality Enables Patent Extortion With Large Portfolios of Low Validity Rate

    Revisiting the EPO's vision of poor patent examination and the effect of discriminatory granting practices, favouring patent bullies such as Microsoft (which actively attacks Linux using low-quality and usually pure software patents)



  10. The EPO's Francesco Zaccà Presenting in Turin Alongside Patent Trolls (Like the Patent Mafia Sisvel) and Lobbyists/Front Groups for Software Patents, UPC

    Benjamin Henrion (FFII) on seeing the EPO alongside patent trolls and other nefarious actors, doing what they do best, which is undermining public interests and harming patent quality



  11. The EPO, USPTO, and Patent Microcosm Peddle Myths About Patents in Public Universities and Research

    Tackling some of the commonly-spread myths about patents as "saving lives" and "promoting research" (in practice leading to the death of poor people and promoting trolls)



  12. Large Corporations' Lobbyist David Kappos Disgraces Former Employer USPTO by Meddling in Their Affairs on Software Patents, Downplaying the Supreme Court

    The latest lobbying from David Kappos, who blatantly exploits his connections in patent circles to promote software patents and work towards their resurgence after Alice v CLS Bank



  13. Journal of Intellectual Property Law and Practice Calls the European Patent Office “Rotten”, Other Sources Scrutinise Recent Moves

    The patent office which was once known for being the best bar none is rotting under the Frenchman Benoît Battistelli, who made himself and his friends the main clients of the Office



  14. PTAB Emerges as Hero of USPTO Because Quality of Patents Improves, Software Patents Are Effectively Dead (or Dying Once Reassessed)

    With help from the Patent Trial and Appeal Board (PTAB) -- not just patent courts -- software patents drop like flies by the thousands



  15. Creative Technology, Now Operating in 'Patent Troll' Mode, Shot Down by the ITC; Jawbone Too Shot Down

    Some good news from the U.S. International Trade Commission (ITC), which may have put an end to Creative's new war on Android (using old patents)



  16. Corporate Media in India Misrepresents Startups to Push for Software Patents

    A parade of misinformation as seen in Indian (but English-speaking) press this week as questions about patentability of software resurface



  17. Links 25/8/2016: Linux Turns 25, NetworkManager Turns 1.4

    Links for the day



  18. Links 24/8/2016: More From LinuxCon, Uganda Wants FOSS

    Links for the day



  19. Links 23/8/2016: GNOME 3.22 Beta, Android 7.0 Nougat

    Links for the day



  20. The Linux Foundation Gives Microsoft (Paid-for) Keynote Position While Microsoft Extorts (With Patents) Lenovo and Motorola Over Linux Use

    This morning's reminder that Nadella is just another Ballmer (with a different face); Motorola and Lenovo surrender to Microsoft's patent demands and will soon put Microsoft spyware/malware on their Linux-powered products to avert costly legal battles



  21. Not Just President Battistelli: EPO Vice-Presidents Are Still Intentionally Misrepresenting EPO Staff

    Evidence serving to show that EPO Vice-Presidents are still intentionally misrepresenting EPO staff representatives and misleading everyone in order to defend Battistelli



  22. Battistelli the Liar Causes a Climate of Confrontation in French Politics, Lies About Patent Quality (Among Many Other Things)

    Battistelli's lies are coming under increased scrutiny inside and outside the European Patent Office (EPO), where patent quality has been abandoned in order to artificially elevate figures



  23. The Collapse of Software Patents and Patent Law Firms Trying to “Overcome” Alice

    The United States continues its gradual crackdown on software patents (which are viewed as abstract and thus unpatentable), whereas in Europe things are murkier than ever



  24. Apple's Patent Wars Against Android/Linux Make Patent Trolls Stronger

    Apple's insistence that designs should be patentable could prove to be collectively expensive, as patent trolls would then use a possible SCOTUS nod to launch litigation campaigns



  25. Links 22/8/2016: Linux 4.8 RC3, Linux Mint 18 “Sarah” KDE Beta

    Links for the day



  26. Links 21/8/2016: Apple and Microsoft Down, Systemd Spreading to Mount

    Links for the day



  27. Links 20/8/2016: Android Domination, FSFE summit 2016

    Links for the day



  28. Patents Roundup: Trolls Dominate Litigation, PTAB Crushes Patents, Patent Box Regime Persists, and OIN Explains Itself

    Another roundup of patent news from around the Web with special focus on software patenting



  29. The Cost/Toll of the 'New' EPO and Where All That Money Goes or Comes From

    The European Patent Office has become a servant of the rich and powerful (including large foreign corporations) and even its own employees now pay the price associated with misguided new policies (or 'reforms' as Battistelli habitually refers to these)



  30. Links 19/8/2016: Linux Mint With KDE, Linux Foundation's PNDA

    Links for the day


CoPilotCo

RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

CoPilotCo

Recent Posts