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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 12th, 2008


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cjhmm?Oct 12 00:46
cjthat sounds pretty bad.  have you made a point of telling someone who can do something about it?  are you asking me to put you in contact with someone closer to the issue than me?Oct 12 00:48
schestowitzNo, they know about itOct 12 00:49
schestowitz.FOSS people were shown the evidence too.Oct 12 00:49
cjthanks for bringing it to my attention.Oct 12 00:49
schestowitzThere are worse stories about what Microsoft did in India. The MD was sacked/ran away, reportedly due to all those fiascos. It's still a mess in Microsoft India, according to mini-microsoft.Oct 12 00:54
cjMD?Oct 12 01:20
MinceRgnOct 12 01:38
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twitterHello all, I'm back from a nice little trip.Oct 12 03:02
twitterOn my trip I learned that a friend had been modbombed for giving modpoints to my comments on Slashdot.Oct 12 03:03
twitterHe had never mentioned this on Slashdot and described it as "twitter is poison"Oct 12 03:04
twitterEither my communications with him had been intercepted, someone at Slashdot does not like twitter, or Slashdot is compromised again.Oct 12 03:05
twitterThought I'd share that before going to bed.  See you all in the morning.Oct 12 03:06
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schestowitzOT:  "According to some preliminary studies, the loss of forest cover and other environmental degradations are costing the world economy between two and five trillion dollars annually."Oct 12 07:25
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pombat42Do you feel global warming is a real, man made situation, a natural cycle or a combination of the two?Oct 12 07:58
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schestowitz "More worrying are the problems currently reported from Palm Beach County, where voting machines supplied by Sequoia Voting Systems acted strangely during various ballot counts."Oct 12 08:22
schestowitzpombat42: for a scientific fact, emission /do/ help the warming.Oct 12 08:23
pombat42sure. but what about things like the little ice age circa 1700 or so. No Co2 back thenOct 12 08:29
schestowitzThat's separate from contribution by menOct 12 08:31
pombat42of course, but it gives credence to the cyclic theory IOW that these things happenOct 12 08:31
schestowitzThink along the lines of blaming /not/ smoking for the death of a victim of lung cancer, who was also a smoker.. saying something like "it could have happened even without smoking."Oct 12 08:33
pombat42smoking is a choice. a poor one. the laws of nature are still mostly unexplained by scienceOct 12 08:34
schestowitzI since there will be another 2000-like scandal in this election because of voting machines.Oct 12 08:34
pombat42re:voting. all the crooked voting machines can not make up for the morons pulling the leversOct 12 08:34
schestowitzI'm no expert in climatic changes, but I know that oil companies paid many millions to throw disinformation into the pool and 'add balance.'Oct 12 08:35
schestowitzSee this video: 12 08:35
pombat42of course. they make money selling oil. they make far more selling foreign oilOct 12 08:35
pombat42how come when a US oil rig goes south due to a hurricane the price of oil skyrockets but yet when a foreign oil producing country, like Iraq, is invadedOct 12 08:36
pombat42oil prices remain more or less stable?Oct 12 08:36
pombat42seems like USA is better off depending on foreign oil (i don't believe that but a point can be made)Oct 12 08:37
schestowitzPuts it in debt..Oct 12 08:38
pombat42IMHO the whole system is completely corruptOct 12 08:40
schestowitzYes, you must assume this coming inOct 12 08:41
pombat42seriously. who am I going to vote for? McCain, who is a career pol and part of the problem or Obama who doesn't seem to have a clue?Oct 12 08:42
pombat42Palin and Biden say more than the those two. I like both of them, but for different reasonsOct 12 08:43
pombat42Palin is rough around the edges, not connected with Washington. Biden is a family guy, not rich and seems to have some good things to say. still, no real choice hereOct 12 08:44
pombat42So where do I go?Oct 12 08:44
schestowitzBiden is the MPAA's henchman.Oct 12 08:45
schestowitzOn the Republicans' side they control McCain. They hold both sides by the balls.Oct 12 08:46
schestowitzYou still have choice.Oct 12 08:46
schestowitzChoose vanilla and lemon or lemon and vanilla.Oct 12 08:46
pombat42Of course. Bush is a puppet, and a moron to boot. I doubt McCain even knows what MPAA is...his sidemen tell him this stuffOct 12 08:47
pombat42Vanilla...very funny !!!!Oct 12 08:47
schestowitzThe illusion of choice... the corporate giants fund both parties (at the same time) and will therefore control them the same way afterwards.Oct 12 08:47
pombat42yep. And what is lobbying? legalized whores IMHOOct 12 08:47
schestowitzMcBush knows the $$ from the MPAA. He doesn't need to understand what they do. He has 'advisors' to tell him what to say about them.Oct 12 08:48
schestowitzGuess how those 'advisors' are a$$igned?Oct 12 08:48
trmancodoes anybody remember this? -> 12 08:48
pombat42Bush is an oil man. Him and Cheny are tighlty connected with Haliburton. Guess who is making tons of money even in these tough times.Oct 12 08:49
schestowitzI saw that last year, trmanco Oct 12 08:49
schestowitzVery good. I still link to it sometimes.Oct 12 08:49
pombat42Example: why does the USA have to IMPORT Oil/Gasoline/fuel to run it's military vehicles in Iraq, a country overflowing with oil...Oct 12 08:50
trmancoyes its old, but looks nice... just to bring up that M$ said that opengl was deadOct 12 08:50
schestowitzIt's over a year old. No example of OGL3Oct 12 08:50
schestowitzMicrosoft has a Slog against OpenGL.Oct 12 08:51
schestowitzThey call it "War".Oct 12 08:51
pombat42opengl is of interest to camers, few others even know what it is.Oct 12 08:51
schestowitz"Ideally, use of the competing technology becomes associated with mental deficiency, as in, "he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and OS/2." Just keep rubbing it in, via the press, analysts, newsgroups, whatever. Make the complete failure of the competition's technology part of the mythology of the computer industry. We want to place selection pressure on those companies and individuals that show a genetic weakness for comOct 12 08:51
schestowitzpetitors' technologies, to make the industry increasingly resistant to such unhealthy strains, over time."Oct 12 08:51
schestowitzFrom Microsoft, internal document <>Oct 12 08:51
pombat42the press are moronsOct 12 08:51
pombat42example? take a look at Ben Stein who admitted today on FoxNews that he lost a fortune the past few weeksOct 12 08:52
pombat42and I like himOct 12 08:52
schestowitzWhy was that?Oct 12 08:52
schestowitzWell, why is this relevant? Many losta  fortune.Oct 12 08:52
pombat42he invested poorly and didn't anticipate the marketOct 12 08:53
pombat42yea, but he is an icon of the financial industryOct 12 08:53
schestowitzI don't watch Fox 'News', so I don't know that Ben.Oct 12 08:53
trmancololOct 12 08:53
trmancoWindows: innovative VTP technology (Virus TransferOct 12 08:53
trmancoProtocol)Oct 12 08:53
trmancowhere did you get this from?Oct 12 08:53
schestowitzMade it up.Oct 12 08:53
pombat42huh?Oct 12 08:54
trmancololOct 12 08:55
trmancofunnyOct 12 08:55
pombat42Huh?Oct 12 08:56
trmancoyou better license that under the GPL before M$ steals your ideaOct 12 08:57
schestowitzIdeas can be stolen?Oct 12 08:58
schestowitzThat's like saying that spirit can be robbed.Oct 12 08:58
pombat42Why bother? Copyright it, patent it and make some real money. GPL? No way... if I have an idea I want to make money not deal with some nebulous script.Oct 12 08:58
trmancowell from M$ who knowsOct 12 08:58
schestowitzMyhrvold attitude: I AM a thinker! Yes! I am your God. You shall pay me for my thinking, $150 per word I utter.Oct 12 08:59
trmancololOct 12 08:59
schestowitzTime at Microsoft messed with the man's brain.Oct 12 08:59
pombat42and yet if they offered you 100 dollars per word you would take it. anyone would.Oct 12 09:00
schestowitzTime for the shock treatment. Must undo ego...Oct 12 09:00
pombat42I wouldOct 12 09:00
schestowitzHe doesn't /take/ the moneyOct 12 09:01
schestowitzhe's hunting for it.Oct 12 09:01
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schestowitzHe threatens companies like Cisco and Verizon, IIRC.Oct 12 09:01
schestowitzDoe daring to have thought about the same ide.... errr... portfolio.Oct 12 09:01
schestowitzThere can be a word for it: "knowledge terrorist"Oct 12 09:02
pombat42a more accurate word is nutsOct 12 09:02
schestowitzKnowledge terrorist: a man or woman who terrified poor victims who dare think the same things.Oct 12 09:02
pombat42nut: a person who believes everyone is out to get him/herOct 12 09:03
schestowitzSo that's the opposite role.Oct 12 09:05
schestowitz "If the company tries to file for everything they invent they spend a fortune on patent attorney fees and filing costs.  If they don’t file then another company will “invent” the same thing and file and the original company can end up being threatened for patent infringement."Oct 12 09:05
schestowitzThat would make the 'troll victim' the 'nut'... for a person who's a software developer it must be no joy. COmpanies like facebook and Digg get sued by trolls for their success.Oct 12 09:06
PetoKrausschestowitz: no, no, that's not terroristOct 12 09:19
PetoKrausterrorist would be the one who terrifies people with different thoughts.Oct 12 09:19
PetoKrausdo'h, the crapbuntu wallpaper will still look like diarrhoea shit. literallyOct 12 09:21
PetoKraus 12 09:21
EruaranhelloOct 12 09:35
PetoKraushelloOct 12 09:36
EruaranIm thinking it might be time to try a new distroOct 12 09:36
EruaranBeen looking at SiduxOct 12 09:37
schestowitzPetoKraus: the wallpaper is OKOct 12 09:37
schestowitzSome people really like these ton es.Oct 12 09:37
PetoKrausyes, but it was promised that the theme would be changed, wasn't it.Oct 12 09:37
EruaranCanonical doesn't care about KubuntuOct 12 09:38
schestowitzHey, Eruaran. PetoKraus the problem I see if the misuse and generalisation of the word "terrorism". Schneier says they even call protesters "terrorism" now.Oct 12 09:38
EruaranI think they should treat it the same as Xubuntu and cease all official support. I feel they're just jerking KDE users around.Oct 12 09:39
PetoKrausschestowitz: yes, ofc. You can track it down to that "police accident" in london subway after the "terrorist" attacks....Oct 12 09:39
EruaranWe should all go support the Debian KDE teamOct 12 09:39
PetoKrausEruaran: well, yes...Oct 12 09:39
PetoKrausi had hard time explaining the difference between copyrights and patents yesterdayOct 12 09:40
schestowitzEruaran: try Mandriva 2009.Oct 12 09:40
EruaranThe attitudes from 'gnomies' has been bugging me latelyOct 12 09:40
PetoKrausmainly - the purpose of patents at all. It seems so useless now.Oct 12 09:40
schestowitzI hear it's good. Best KDE4 implementation.Oct 12 09:40
EruarankOct 12 09:40
schestowitzDon't reward Canonical for neglecting KDE.Oct 12 09:40
EruaranI hate RPM distro's thoughOct 12 09:40
EruaranThats why I've been looking at SiduxOct 12 09:41
schestowitzPetoKraus: patent = idea; copyright = expression.Oct 12 09:41
PetoKrausschestowitz: that's oversimplifyingOct 12 09:41
schestowitzYou can paraphrase.Oct 12 09:41
EruaranSidux is pretty much just Debian already set up for folks who want KDEOct 12 09:41
schestowitzFor each idea, there are almost-infinitely many implementations. You can't work past them.Oct 12 09:42
schestowitzEruaran: it works (the RPM)Oct 12 09:42
PetoKrausEruaran: i don't like to use "derivatives", because they tend to have lower degree of support than the "mother" distroOct 12 09:42
PetoKrausschestowitz: i don't believe you (on the RPM)Oct 12 09:43
EruaranSidux is just Debian unstableOct 12 09:43
schestowitzGUI just like SynapticOct 12 09:43
EruaranSame repositoriesOct 12 09:43
MinceRhayOct 12 09:43
PetoKrausschestowitz: i don't use gui, neither on my debian box, nor on my gentoo boxOct 12 09:44
PetoKrausapt-cache search && apt-get install....Oct 12 09:44
schestowitzI was going to install Debian.Oct 12 09:44
PetoKrausthe only problem with debian is, you can't do much without enabling the repositoriesOct 12 09:44
EruaranDebian KDE maintainers invited Jonathan Riddel to join them saying they need the helpOct 12 09:44
PetoKrauseg - there's no DeCSS in debian's repos (even in non-free)Oct 12 09:44
Eruaranthats no biggieOct 12 09:45
PetoKrausi knowOct 12 09:45
PetoKrausand i'd rather like to enable custom repositories and keep my system quietOct 12 09:45
PetoKrauslike having them enabled by default, and the system asking me about "what binary blob would you like to install today?"Oct 12 09:46
EruaranI saw the dumbest thingOct 12 09:47
EruaranPeople complaining that Gnome doesn't give you any way to configure screensavers that have config optionsOct 12 09:47
schestowitzThat might confuse the user.Oct 12 09:48
EruaranAnd the maintainers opinion was that any screensaver that has configuration options is "inherently broken"Oct 12 09:48
PetoKrauswell, gnome is weird. See epiphany?Oct 12 09:48
PetoKrausit WAS a good browser, light, fastOct 12 09:48
schestowitz 12 09:49
PetoKrausthen they removed almost every useful feature from it. I think, in next version it'll be links*gtkOct 12 09:49
schestowitzHow tactless of LinusOct 12 09:49
EruaranSo Ubuntu, for example, has slideshow screensavers that cannot be configured... like the Carosel, no pictures, so it just displays the default x image...Oct 12 09:49
MinceRlolOct 12 09:50
trmanco 12 09:50
EruaranLinus was rightOct 12 09:50
EruaranAnd things havent improvedOct 12 09:50
PetoKraustactless, but correctOct 12 09:50
EruaranIf you want to be able to choose some nice pictures that you like for your slideshow screensaver... use KDEOct 12 09:51
Eruaranthe kind of attitude displayed by some gnome developers is just plain retardedOct 12 09:52
schestowitzI happened to read this 5 minutes ago (it's new): 12 09:54
schestowitz'twas in FSDailyOct 12 09:55
EruaranLinus was absolutely correct. I don't think this kind of stupidity needs to be treated tactfully.Oct 12 09:56
EruaranYou can't talk about usability when there isn't a usable dialogue to use that does what the user wants to do at all.Oct 12 09:57
schestowitzWell, he wrote a patchOct 12 09:58
Eruaran""Oct 12 09:59
EruaranBut hey, just continue to remove all that confusing functionality fromOct 12 09:59
EruaranGnome.  I don't care. I voted with my feet.Oct 12 09:59
Eruaranthat quote didnt quite work rightOct 12 09:59
Eruaran:pOct 12 09:59
schestowitzWell, gnome logoOct 12 10:00
MinceRlolOct 12 10:01
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PetoKrausoh man, that HAVOC guy is terrible trollOct 12 10:28
schestowitzURL?Oct 12 10:28
schestowitzThe Inquirer has had a very distracting menu picture since yesterday: 12 10:29
PetoKrausschestowitz: the linus rant follow upOct 12 10:32
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schestowitzWell, and Linus *isn't* a troll?  "And the technical term for somebody who claims to do user interface design and not understand this fact is a "FUCKING IDIOT"."Oct 12 10:35
PetoKrauswell, that point is true as wellOct 12 10:36
schestowitzHe could say "fool" or "idiot"Oct 12 10:37
PetoKrauscould, but didn'tOct 12 10:37
PetoKrausthat's what language is forOct 12 10:37
PetoKrausyou express what you want to express.Oct 12 10:37
schestowitzHe could get kicked had he not been LinusOct 12 10:37
schestowitz*wouldOct 12 10:37
PetoKraus 12 10:40
PetoKrausMONOronOct 12 10:40
schestowitzI knew it was him... from the use of the word "muck"Oct 12 10:44
PetoKrausi mean, maybe gnome is still independent of monoOct 12 10:44
PetoKrausupstream sources, that is.Oct 12 10:44
schestowitzIt's not dependent in partical terms.Oct 12 10:45
schestowitzBut when distributed, there's encouragement through availability to put Mono in there.Oct 12 10:45
PetoKrausbut all those distributions packaging mono stuff with GNOME create the very evident illusion, that apps from GNOME depend on monoOct 12 10:45
schestowitzThere are many Mono Myths^TMOct 12 10:46
schestowitzMono Myth: Mono is fast, Java is slow (it's not)Oct 12 10:46
schestowitzWeak spot: If patent  violations are found in Mono, the project will remove the codeOct 12 10:46
schestowitzExcuse: Mono's .DLL and .EXE are just normal binaries (yeah, why ev en have /usr/bin... let's just use c:/progra~1 too)Oct 12 10:47
schestowitzExcuse #2: It's possible to 'just' remove Mono (dependency issue)Oct 12 10:47
schestowitzLie: GNOME isn't becoming dependent on Mono (good luck finding a GNOME distro  without Mono)Oct 12 10:48
schestowitz"He's evil too" FUD pattern: "Mono is like Samba" (not: )Oct 12 10:48
schestowitzDisinformation: Microsoft and .NET are 'inevitable' anyway (Novell propaganda)Oct 12 10:48
schestowitzMono marketing: Mono allows programs to run also in other platforms (hey, we don't need Linux anymore).Oct 12 10:49
schestowitzSelling point: It brings Windows developers in (woohoo! More boosters for MOOX, people who don't care about freedom, urge us to love Microsoft despite its well-documented crimes)Oct 12 10:50
schestowitzGymanastic in logic: It's an ECMA standard (they have misconceptions about RAND and WinForms)Oct 12 10:50
schestowitzAnd so on...Oct 12 10:50 pimping proprietary software with DirectX: 12 10:52
trmanco"We know Google submits many bug fixes for Wine, and it is evidentOct 12 11:04
trmancoby the new Picasa V 3.0 beta which is lightning fast and puts MonoOct 12 11:04
trmancobased application F-spot to shame."Oct 12 11:04
trmancohahaOct 12 11:04
PetoKrauswhy the hell does it have to be ran on wineOct 12 11:05
trmanco 12 11:05
PetoKrausmirage <3<3Oct 12 11:06
trmancoI really don't know whyOct 12 11:06
trmancohere is another good oneOct 12 11:06
schestowitzIt's  not good if it replaces FOSS projects, even Mono.Oct 12 11:06
trmanco 12 11:06
schestowitzIt's proprietary, it's DirectX, it's Windows.Oct 12 11:06
trmancopicassa directx?Oct 12 11:07
schestowitzThey should move it to OpenGL and port it properly.Oct 12 11:07
trmancohave to look into that thanOct 12 11:07
schestowitzBut I hear that former Microsoft employees in Google might help make silly acquisitions and dev decisions.Oct 12 11:07
PetoKraus^^Oct 12 11:08
PetoKraushe's fucking' killing google, i tell ya.Oct 12 11:08
PetoKrausi'm quite surprised Steve didn't throw a chair at the eggthrower in Hungary.Oct 12 11:08
PetoKrausi guess he was just a bit perplexOct 12 11:09
schestowitzThis one is pretty funny: 12 11:09
trmancodon't agree with this one -> don't install linux on a system with one sata and one ide drive (adding a hard disk will confuse it even more)Oct 12 11:10
trmancomy system has one sata and one ide driveOct 12 11:10
trmancoworks flawlesslyOct 12 11:11
schestowitzPetoKraus: Balmer is a Chihuahua:. It just barks.Oct 12 11:11
PetoKrausheh, i can't imagine Paris carrying Ballmer in a dog-bagOct 12 11:11
PetoKraus:DOct 12 11:11
schestowitz"It was only a short matter of time after making that announcement before KDE 4.1 was released. And with that release have come new releases of distributions that use it. An excellent example of a KDE 4.1 DE/distribution release is, in my opinion, Mandriva 2009. The more I work with the latest version of Mandriva and KDE 4.1.2 the more comfortable I am with the entire distribution. I honestly haven't felt this good about a Linux diOct 12 11:13
schestowitzstribution using KDE since openSUSE 10.2 and KDE 3."Oct 12 11:13
schestowitz 12 11:13
PetoKraushmm, let's fire the virtualisation engine,thenOct 12 11:15
schestowitz[H]omer seems to have removed this image: 12 11:15
PetoKrausschestowitz: so you use mandriva?Oct 12 11:16
schestowitz*LOL* 12 11:17
schestowitzFound it while looking at some BN links.Oct 12 11:18
schestowitzPetoKraus: yes.Oct 12 11:18
PetoKraus:) i like the concept of kde4.1Oct 12 11:18
schestowitzTHis one too: 12 11:18
PetoKrausthough most of it was taken from E, and from MacOSOct 12 11:18
schestowitzEruaran: KDE 4 is catching on.Oct 12 11:18
schestowitzYes, some of it is like EOct 12 11:19
schestowitzSpeaking of which, in the City of Ember, or whatever that new firm was called, the "E" seems to have been 'stolen' from Enlightenment.Oct 12 11:19
schestowitz*silmOct 12 11:19
schestowitz*filmOct 12 11:19
PetoKrausyesOct 12 11:20
PetoKrauslet's file copyright infringementOct 12 11:20
PetoKrausright, i need to start operation barbarossaOct 12 11:21
schestowitzYes, no? ttp:// 12 11:21
PetoKraus(ie, quest for history books...)Oct 12 11:21
schestowitzYes? No? 12 11:21
PetoKrausit's not reallyOct 12 11:22
PetoKrausbut i guess i could file a patent for "stylized typing of E in circular way"Oct 12 11:22
PetoKrausin the US, that's it.Oct 12 11:22
schestowitz>Oct 12 11:22
schestowitzhttp://linuxowns.files.wordpr...Oct 12 11:23
schestowitzPetoKraus: yes, e circles.Oct 12 11:23
PetoKrausschestowitz: the last one is my background ;)Oct 12 11:24
schestowitzSue any publication mathematical with exponentials, too.Oct 12 11:24
PetoKraus:POct 12 11:24
schestowitzMade by you or used?Oct 12 11:24
PetoKraususedOct 12 11:24
PetoKrausnot made... it's made by Thomas Haste. It's amazing dark themeOct 12 11:25
trmancoDebian is sexy -> 12 11:25
PetoKrausdohOct 12 11:25
PetoKrausmake the eyes brownOct 12 11:25
PetoKrausand i'll love it.Oct 12 11:26
PetoKrausthough, since we are talking debian, the girl is probably in her 80ties by nowOct 12 11:26
trmanco 12 11:26
schestowitz "That’s pretty much all I’ve done. So far, nothing has crashed, Plasma has behaved itself and everything has “just worked”. Mandriva has made me forget that I’m using KDE 4, which is actually a good thing! "Oct 12 11:28
trmanco 12 11:28
schestowitzhttp://jaysonrowe.files.wordpress....Oct 12 11:29
trmancocoolOct 12 11:29
trmanconew mandrivaOct 12 11:30
schestowitzPetoKraus: 80s? Why? She's good looking.Oct 12 11:30
schestowitztrmanco: KDE4 is calming down. The whole noise will vanish, just as Seigo predicated. it was the same with 3.0.Oct 12 11:30
schestowitz*predicted.Oct 12 11:30
schestowitzThey have a very strong foundation now. Eruaran would be thrilled.Oct 12 11:31
trmancolooks better than any gnome based distro imoOct 12 11:31
trmancoeven tho gnome is my favoriteOct 12 11:32
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schestowitzUbuntu should aim for a niche and make that Debian wallpaper its defaultOct 12 11:34
schestowitzAt least that way, people would start saying that Ubuntu is not ugly.Oct 12 11:34
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schestowitz IP Innovation v Red Hat and Novell - 1 Year Later 12 11:40
schestowitzMandriva 2009: Is It Better Than Mac Or Windows! 12 11:43
trmanco 12 11:44
trmancothe author of the article has a good point thereOct 12 11:44
schestowitzImplicit saveOct 12 11:45
schestowitz 12 11:46
trmancololOct 12 11:49
trmancowell the way that kde does the save is a better wayOct 12 11:49
trmancognome should have some settings with implicit save and some others withoutOct 12 11:50
schestowitzNew: "There are some distros that even go too far in trying to make a distro "newbie" friendly and in the interest of making a few things super easy to find or do, actually remove some of the capability or productiveness overall. That isn't productive either." 12 12:08
schestowitzAnother reasons to avoid Monovell: "I really do not understand why Net is not backwards compatible but I suppose at least I should be happy that the libraries can co-exist instead of the old DLL hell. Microsofts attempt to replace Java could have been implemented in a better way." 12 12:14
schestowitz 12 12:38 3.5 is fairly backwards compatible with 2. 2 wasn't with 1 because of how they implemented generics. Java compromised on the generics implementation making them more difficult for developers to understand and losing some of the performance benefits to maintain backwards compatibility.Oct 12 12:42
benJImanJava is not entirely backwards/forwards compatible either.Oct 12 12:43
*Eruaran is thrilledOct 12 12:59
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twittergood morning, all.Oct 12 14:29
schestowitzMoin.Oct 12 14:30
twitterschestowitz: patent = invention.  Ideas, as you know, are a dime a dozen.  Inventions are specific, practical and non obvious combinations of ideas.  A patent that covers an idea would be broad enough to be a method patent.Oct 12 14:32
twitterHey, this is good news, "the rules in patent cases force the parties early on to place their cards on the table"Oct 12 14:35
twitterThat will make it a lot harder for M$ to use patents to shake down free software.Oct 12 14:36
twitterUnless they Tojan most distributions with mono.Oct 12 14:36
schestowitzI'm writing about this right now.Oct 12 14:39
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twittercoolOct 12 14:45
twitterwhat was funny about that vivapinkfloyd page?Oct 12 14:45
*mib_6aso1m (i=5496c4ed@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellOct 12 14:45
twitterthe guy is either a moron or a FUDster.Oct 12 14:45
twitterthree firefox tabs under five seconds does what?  I just opened five in under three and it did nothing.Oct 12 14:47
PetoKrausdohOct 12 14:47
PetoKrausbelkin is shiteOct 12 14:47
twitterit goes downhill from there.Oct 12 14:47
twitterRMS has been blogging the cost of global warming for a while.Oct 12 14:50
twitterthe extermination of fisheries and cropland has almost incalculable costs.Oct 12 14:51
twitterOne of the worst predictions is the halting of the gulf stream and other deep ocean currents.  This could make the oceans look like the Black Sea.Oct 12 14:52
*PetoKraus has quit ("The purpose of IRC is to...IDLE...")Oct 12 14:54
twitterWeakened currents and warmer temperatures in northern California waters has already done a lot of damage.Oct 12 14:54
*PetoKraus ( has joined #boycottnovellOct 12 14:54
twitterA cycle of doubt and flood is another thing predicted by global warming models.  That's what "extreme" weather ends up doing to crops.Oct 12 14:55
twitterIt's not something you can make crops resistant to, so "climate change ready" seeds are a lie.  A drought resistant corn, for example, won't be flood resistant and the crop will fail one way or the other.Oct 12 14:57
twitterThen there is the northward migration of tropical disease and pests.  Pine beetles have already taken a bite out of forestry.Oct 12 14:58
twitterPositive feedback mechanisms, like methane released from melting permafrost and warmer oceans, is also being documented.  It may already be too late to halt.Oct 12 15:00
schestowitzI'll need your help.Oct 12 15:01
schestowitzWe need to petition distros. Let me just post it firstOct 12 15:01
PetoKrausumm, interestingOct 12 15:01
twitterPetition what, KDE support?Oct 12 15:03
schestowitz.This is urgent as OOo3 is out tomorrow and Novell may try publicity stunts: Please pass on to people who can help.Oct 12 15:07
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PetoKrausalright, it's starting to get annoyingOct 12 15:10
schestowitzIt's starting to get Microsoft.Oct 12 15:16
benJImanO_oOct 12 15:25
benJImanYou do realise go-ooo is about sun using a non-free licence for their version of openoffice and not accepting free software patches from the community unless copyright is assigned to them>Oct 12 15:26
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schestowitzI realise that  go-ooo is about polluting OOo.Oct 12 15:31
benJImanWhat makes you think Novell are even involved?Oct 12 15:32
benJImanJust because Michael Meeks is involved?Oct 12 15:32
benJImanToday's articles surpass your usual standard for unsubstantiated misinformation and FUD.Oct 12 15:34
benJIman" we won’t link to actual examples as that would feed Novell’s insidious messages." roflOct 12 15:34
schestowitzThey use a so-called 'community' to hide involvement.Oct 12 15:34
schestowitz"I'm just a hacker"Oct 12 15:34
schestowitzSame BS as Mono.Oct 12 15:35
schestowitzbenJIman: are you here to police on behalf of Novell or just on behalf of your beloved SUSE?Oct 12 15:35
benJImanschestowitz: Have you actually got a problem with a single thing go-ooo has done? I only see a lot of complaining that Novell is contributing to free software.Oct 12 15:36
schestowitzYou haven't read carefully enough, methinks. :-DOct 12 15:40
benJImanI did read the whole "article".Oct 12 15:43
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twitterHere's a specific complaint, they use LGPL 12 16:52
twitterIf they were friends of software freedom and had something special, they should use GPL instead.Oct 12 16:53
twitterRoy's other complaints were specific as well, Benjie, and you have not really unseated them by mentioning a Novell paid contributor to the project.Oct 12 17:00
benJImantwitter: I don't see any complaints.Oct 12 17:00
benJImanUnless you count the rambling about mono.Oct 12 17:01
twitterHis most specific complaint is that is offering something that only Novell customers will be able to use.Oct 12 17:01
benJImanWhy's that?Oct 12 17:01
twitterPatentsOct 12 17:01
benJImanUpstream oo has ooxml support too, go-oo oo doesn't have a hard dependency on mono.Oct 12 17:01
benJImanSo what's the difference again?Oct 12 17:02
twitterYou tell me why go-oo exists.Oct 12 17:02
benJImanBecause sun would not accept significant community contributions without copyright assignment.Oct 12 17:02
mib_prbh5aer twitter, you might want to read - OpenOffice itself is released under the LGPL ;)Oct 12 17:03
twitterthat's a shame.Oct 12 17:03
mib_prbh5abut the decision of the people who created it.Oct 12 17:03
benJImanYou could fork it as a GPLed version too, the lgpl is gpl compatible.Oct 12 17:03
twitterbrbOct 12 17:04
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twitterGo-oo claimed the upstream sources were under more restrictive licenses.  Was that a lie?Oct 12 17:16
twitterNow that they are under the same license, why have a 12 17:16
twitterWhen you release source under a copyleft license, why worry about copyright assignment?  Isn't it better to assign your copyright to a larger organization that can defend copyleft terms?Oct 12 17:17
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twitterThe problem of patents is unanswered by a fork, especially a fork loaded with Novell supplied OOXML code.Oct 12 17:18
twitterThis fork does not look honest and I don't think sensible distributions are going to embrace it.Oct 12 17:19
twitterIsn't OOXML itself patent encumbered Benjie?Oct 12 17:23
twitterIf it is, does not need mono for M$ to squash it, wasting all of the developer time spent there.Oct 12 17:24
twitterIt's easier for M$ to cry about patent infringement on their formats and language than it is for them to use them against Linux itself.  Would this be why Novell is stuffing Gnome with mono and OO with OOXML?Oct 12 17:27
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trmanco 12 17:51
trmanco"The KDE Community today launches the new KDE Forum. The new forum uses the bulletin board software MyBB offering users, developers and people interested in KDE a place to help each other, discuss KDE-related topics and exchange ideas."Oct 12 17:51
trmanco 12 17:52
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schestowitztwitter: fair points. It's worth including in a followupOct 12 19:35
schestowitztrmanco: "MyBB Released as GPL"Oct 12 19:35
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schestowitzSomeone mail me a translation of: 12 19:36
schestowitz...A parliamentary representative from the far right is proposing to require use of open source in the public sector...Oct 12 19:36
schestowitz...FOSS allows for better oversight of government work and are of good economic value even outside government.  (Note: Sweden is one giant corporate welfare state with many government services now provided by private companies which do an expensive, limited, poor job.)Oct 12 19:36
schestowitzzoobab: 12 19:37
schestowitz<schestowitz>  IP Innovation v Red Hat and Novell - 1 Year Later 12 19:37
schestowitz "The global economy is losing more money from the disappearance of forests than through the current banking crisis, according to an EU-commissioned study. It puts the annual cost of forest loss at between $2 trillion and $5 trillion."Oct 12 20:08
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schestowitzThe post about OOo seems to be well received in Digg... 12 20:36
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brunomiguelhello :)Oct 12 20:44
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schestowitzHey, brunomiguel Oct 12 20:47
brunomiguelhello schestowitzOct 12 20:48
trmanco 12 20:50
trmancoHiOct 12 20:50
brunomigueltrmanco: vivaOct 12 20:50
trmanco:-)Oct 12 20:50
brunomigueltrmanco: obscene expenses with mostly with dictatorwareOct 12 20:50
trmanco...Oct 12 20:51
trmancothat is our tax money that pays for a bloated systemOct 12 20:51
brunomiguelsad and true :\Oct 12 20:52
brunomiguelhere in Coimbra, 5 million euros to a microsoft thing. damn lot of money, at least from my standpointOct 12 20:57
trmanco5 million euros just from coimbra is a lot of money, considering the country we are living inOct 12 20:58
trmanco 12 20:59
trmancotranlated versionOct 12 20:59
trmancotranslated *Oct 12 20:59
brunomiguelfor me it's a fortune that i would glady receive, if they care to give it to me :)Oct 12 20:59
trmanco1/2 of it would do for meOct 12 21:00
brunomiguelthe full thing or nothing ;)Oct 12 21:01
trmancololOct 12 21:01
trmancodon't get to greedyOct 12 21:02
brunomiguelwho? me?? noOct 12 21:02
brunomiguel:POct 12 21:02
schestowitzWhat does Rui say?Oct 12 21:03
brunomiguelschestowitz: read this to get an idea 12 21:07
schestowitzMicrosoft almost bought SAPOct 12 21:11
schestowitzThey are very close. They also use Novell because it's Microsoft-'approved'Oct 12 21:11
schestowitzSame with other industry allies of Microsoft.Oct 12 21:12
brunomiguelthe army of evil xDOct 12 21:12
schestowitz 12 21:15
brunomiguelcan't watch it. i don't have gnash or any other free flah implementation installed. :\Oct 12 21:16
brunomiguel*flashOct 12 21:16
schestowitzYes, I know.Oct 12 21:16
schestowitzSorry.Oct 12 21:17
brunomiguelmaybe clive can download itOct 12 21:17
schestowitzIt's about the economy.Oct 12 21:18
schestowitzContext/background: 12 21:18
zoobab 12 21:20
zoobabEPO lobbies the EUOct 12 21:20
schestowitzInteresting, thanks.Oct 12 21:22
trmancoschestowitz, how is that M$-Mono email thing going?Oct 12 21:23
schestowitzNo answer yes.Oct 12 21:25
schestowitzTick tick.Oct 12 21:25
trmancololOct 12 21:25
schestowitzSomeone volunteered to do a well-researched post on Mono problems and solutions to it (replacement)Oct 12 21:29
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seller_liarhey royOct 12 22:03
seller_liarm$ releases M , a new programming language based in.......XAML!Oct 12 22:03
schestowitzMeh.Oct 12 22:05
schestowitzLinux has just been renamed "L" ;-0Oct 12 22:05
schestowitzAnd Microsoft renamed embedded Windows... because changing a name will /REALLY/ makes Linux nervous where it already dominates. ;-)Oct 12 22:06
schestowitzNowadays in Digg people vote just for Linux fanboism and MS bashing. Eve the site's founder is concerned about it. It's no hub for news.Oct 12 22:10
seller_liarpatents and proprietary software have a lot of coincidencesOct 12 22:30
seller_liarthe two EXPECT to make millionsOct 12 22:30
MinceRyou forgot the crApple bias.Oct 12 22:30
seller_liaris different to gain million with workOct 12 22:31
schestowitzIt's perceived valueOct 12 22:31
seller_liarfor exampleOct 12 22:31
schestowitzWatch the talk from Tim Bray. It's very good.Oct 12 22:31
schestowitzvery timely.Oct 12 22:31
*brunomiguel has quit ("asta la mañana :)")Oct 12 22:31
MinceRgnOct 12 22:31
seller_liari make a very good software no matter I pay for this ,but later I will price my software 1000000x of costOct 12 22:32
schestowitzgn. A lot of things are valued by belief, e.g. certificates versus something hard like food of fuel.Oct 12 22:32
seller_liarpatents and proprietary software gives the price control for owners ,not for usersOct 12 22:33
*schestowitz thinks of those 1960s-like shows where Little Johnny "made a patent" and "made a million". Ahhh.. the daze [sic] of Hollywood dreamin'Oct 12 22:33
benJImantwitter: Well debian and ubuntu already did. And as I already said, upstream has ooxml support too, it wasn't introduced in the fork.Oct 12 22:36
seller_liarhey roy did you understand my ideas about charles and bertrand?Oct 12 22:36
schestowitzYes, thanks.Oct 12 22:42
schestowitzYou could state this in public.Oct 12 22:42
seller_liaryou can copy my dialog for  the public ,but delete some names from thereOct 12 22:48
seller_liaror change the names for seller_liarOct 12 22:50
seller_liarfor example seller_liar is stupid!Oct 12 22:50
seller_liar"I will teach some tips for destroy seller_liarOct 12 22:51
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Oct 12 22:59:11 2008
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Oct 12 22:59:11 2008
twitterick, benjie, you are right. 12 23:30
twitterI don't often use OO much less keep up with it's development.Oct 12 23:31
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benJImantwitter: And go-oo didn't introduce ooxml, it is in upstream.Oct 12 23:31
benJImantwitter: And mono is not required by go-oo.Oct 12 23:31
benJImanSo in summary, the entire article is incorrect.Oct 12 23:31
twitterNo, is still a trap.  I imagine the strategy is to take what it gives and tell M$ FU when they come knocking.Oct 12 23:31
twitterha ha.Oct 12 23:32
twitterThey won't be around much longer anyway.Oct 12 23:32
*BillyCrook_ (n=BillyCro@unaffiliated/billycrook) has left #boycottnovellOct 12 23:44

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