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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 12th, 2009 - Part 1


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schestowitzAnd cheap journalism takes overFeb 12 00:00
schestowitzNo investigationFeb 12 00:00
twitter?Feb 12 00:00
schestowitzMany publication hire cheap labour to edit and republish press releases.Feb 12 00:00
twitterYou are getting all sorts of page views by doing good investigation.  That should translate into ad money.Feb 12 00:00
schestowitzWell, that's conventional. What's the question mark referring to?Feb 12 00:00
schestowitzReporters themselves say this. They don't get rewarded for good piecesFeb 12 00:01
schestowitzNo ad moneyFeb 12 00:01
schestowitzShane puts the ads which pay like $50/month. Hosting is cheaperFeb 12 00:01
twitterI know someone setting up a rack.  He thinks you can get plenty of ad money from the kind of traffic you see.  Millions of page views should translate into thousands of dollars.Feb 12 00:02
schestowitz Tories admit to Wiki-alteration < >Feb 12 00:02
schestowitzthis is not about money thoughFeb 12 00:02
twitter1E6 views at 0.01per view is $10,000.Feb 12 00:03
schestowitzPeople who are BN audience don't click adsFeb 12 00:04
schestowitzMost don't even see themFeb 12 00:04
twitterI don't know how it works.  I just know that people I've talk to think there's more money in it than you are seeing.Feb 12 00:05
twitterYou might not be doing this for money but there would be nothing wrong with you getting paid for your work.Feb 12 00:06
schestowitzShane has already put ads in there. Few people see them, fewer click them and I never saw any of the money (I don't care either)Feb 12 00:07
twitterWhatever.  You have server problems, someone I'm talking to thinks he's got a better server and money.  Sounds like a win win to me, especially when Shane took his name off the page.Feb 12 00:09
schestowitzPromises are cheapFeb 12 00:11
twittertrue.Feb 12 00:12
twitterI'm not in a position to verify but I do trust the person I've been talking to.Feb 12 00:14
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schestowitzThey can say this to entice clientsFeb 12 00:15
twitterI wrote him to see what he has to say.  I talked to him about this before you had server trouble.  I'll see what he has to say now and get you two together if he thinks he can do it.  You two can work out the details.Feb 12 00:15
schestowitzMicrosoft does this too.. search bribery, AdCenter or whatever they called it.. they promise something in exchange for lockinFeb 12 00:16
twitterThis guy is local and a free software advocate rising though small business of his own.Feb 12 00:16
schestowitzMiguel is fighting us in the comments here *sigh* 12 00:19
twitter*lookingFeb 12 00:19
schestowitzThey can't let people link to us without throwing some slime or arm-twisting editorsFeb 12 00:19
schestowitzI needed to comment to counter Miguel...Feb 12 00:21
schestowitzLinux spreads, but will Google go properly Free software? Android moving on to mobile Internet tablets, media players < >Feb 12 00:26
twitterAre you sure it's Miguel?  There are a lot of fake Miguels out there.Feb 12 00:27
twitterwmv and wma are not benefits of moonlight - these are already done well by free software.Feb 12 00:28
schestowitztwitter: yes, it's himFeb 12 00:29
schestowitzBased on what he saysFeb 12 00:29
twitterstrangely, I've had a lot of problems with codecs using totem lately.  It has it's own goofy codec download.Feb 12 00:29
schestowitzI use KaffeineFeb 12 00:29
schestowitzIt comes with loads of codecs when I fetch it here.Feb 12 00:30
twitterI'm still reading.  Will run into Miguel stuff soon but insults don't seem like him.Feb 12 00:30
schestowitzSo while Totem won't do mp3, for example, on this box, amarok and kaffeine handle it all nicelyFeb 12 00:30
twitterVLC and KDE players are working much better than gnome stuff.Feb 12 00:30
schestowitzmplayer is another such monsterFeb 12 00:30
twitterkmplayer works nicely too.Feb 12 00:30
schestowitzIt's no insult really.Feb 12 00:31
schestowitzThey dicredit the messenger by claiming it to be false.Feb 12 00:31
schestowitzThis led to me being super careful with fact and nobody has complained for months about serious factual mistakesFeb 12 00:31
schestowitzDifferent in opinion != mistaleFeb 12 00:32
twitterHe called you a liar.  That's an insult.Feb 12 00:33
twitterIt's also silly, if you quoted Novell correctly.  Their opinion is obvious from their statement, regardless of what others might say.Feb 12 00:34
twitterLive CD distribution is the least of concerns anyway.  You have quoted other Novell executives saying no one but Novell can have moonlight.Feb 12 00:34
schestowitzNo exactly.Feb 12 00:36
schestowitzThey need to obtain it via NovellFeb 12 00:36
joseschestowitz, are the comments moderated?Feb 12 00:36
schestowitzBruce Lowry said soFeb 12 00:36
joseI thought i posted but it's not thereFeb 12 00:36
jose 12 00:36
schestowitzjose:  in BN or oaststic?Feb 12 00:36
joseoasFeb 12 00:36
schestowitzOhFeb 12 00:37
schestowitzSometimes it goes into filteringFeb 12 00:37
joseok, it's there nowFeb 12 00:37
schestowitzThey have a very sensitive filterFeb 12 00:37
schestowitzLike 70% of the time I manage to stay clear of itFeb 12 00:37
josei said "linux rocks" so maybe the filters caught itFeb 12 00:38
schestowitz*LOL* @ "BTW, Meeks, employed by a top Monopolysoft contractor"Feb 12 00:38
schestowitz"Monopolysoft contractor"... methinks of hotels in a game of monopolyFeb 12 00:38
schestowitzOstatic seems to be run by Mac users...  kind of like "Open" Road (Asay)Feb 12 00:39
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schestowitzGiving console applications a bad name < >Feb 12 00:44
schestowitzOStatic has been kinder recently. Re: mono/light, it covered some other related issues and some days ago Sam linked to us too.Feb 12 00:51
schestowitzDang. SJVN is being a bit of a tool for Mono.... 12 00:52
schestowitzTina Gasperson of has just landed in Jupitermedia: 12 00:53
schestowitzQt-KDE arguments resume: 12 00:59
schestowitz*sigh* why do OSS bloggers even mention the Fortify mouthpiece? Fortify is a Microsoft ally, so it's worth disregarding. It's like hearing that the United States calls Chavez a "dictator" (or not secure) because he doesn't let the American troops colonialise and rob Venezuela of its oil.Feb 12 01:02
schestowitz"I’m staring at my Netbook right now and I only have Google Chrome installed. It’s running Ubuntu, I’m using Google Docs – this is the first computer I’ve owned that Microsoft didn’t make a penny off of me. But I’m a consumer. The conclusion of the chapter is that you can’t compete with free." 12 01:04
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josethis is from feb 2nd but i hadn't noticed it 12 01:19
schestowitzYesFeb 12 01:19
schestowitzIt was covered in IDG from IndiaFeb 12 01:19
schestowitzSame day something bad happeend, but I can't recall whatFeb 12 01:19
schestowitzOhFeb 12 01:19
schestowitzIt was around the same time/day 100 layoffs were announced at NOVLFeb 12 01:20
schestowitzThere's more comingFeb 12 01:20
jose 12 01:20
josehere Sam Dean adds in a little personalized ad for go-oooFeb 12 01:21
josego-ooFeb 12 01:21
joseit's not that bad but wanted to point it outFeb 12 01:21
josethe whole arti is about phipps/oo.o..Feb 12 01:22
joseand he throws in this: In addition to logical mixing and matching of applications between these suites that you can do, I find it great to have Go-oo on hand as well. Go-oo is a lighter, faster fork of OpenOffice with a number of Microsoft-compatible components not found in OpenOffice.Feb 12 01:22
joseit's all true, and even related to the main articleFeb 12 01:23
jose well, "true"Feb 12 01:23
schestowitzgo-monooxmlFeb 12 01:23
josei haven't tried it nor tested it obviouslyFeb 12 01:23
joseyupFeb 12 01:23
joseor so i hearFeb 12 01:23
schestowitz:-)Feb 12 01:23
schestowitzit's ooxml with a monkey in front of itFeb 12 01:24
josewait there is moreFeb 12 01:24
jose"Go-oo improves on OpenOffice in several ways"Feb 12 01:24
josethat comment seemed unnecessaryFeb 12 01:24
schestowitzNotice the Moonlight press releaseFeb 12 01:24
schestowitzit's part of the Mono projectFeb 12 01:24
joseit's thrown in there almost like a subliminal messageFeb 12 01:24
schestowitzThe Mono group tried to dissociated Monolight[sic] from Mono.. it didn't workFeb 12 01:25
josehidden among oo.o this and thatFeb 12 01:25
schestowitz*dissociateFeb 12 01:25
schestowitz"Improves" Haha...Feb 12 01:25
schestowitzImproves to whom??Feb 12 01:25
schestowitzTo Novell?Feb 12 01:25
joseanyway, the other article by SDean could not have been done better by an ad agencyFeb 12 01:26
schestowitzI know..Feb 12 01:27
schestowitzThey boost a lot of Novell stuffFeb 12 01:27
schestowitzI've read them since the very beginning (RSS)Feb 12 01:28
schestowitzZonker is there too (Novell employee)Feb 12 01:28
jose... well, if we exclude the BN partFeb 12 01:33
josei wonder if posting about the lgplv2 arguments wasn't plannedFeb 12 01:33
joseit's a minor point and miguel was quick with a reply that the issue had already been discussed and solvedFeb 12 01:34
josemaybe novell or proxy suggested that bn could be quoted on ... lgpl2 controversy...Feb 12 01:35
joseand Sam Dean went for itFeb 12 01:35
joseI just had a chance to read an earlier link about wikipedia and the long German nameFeb 12 01:41
joseit was funnyFeb 12 01:42
joseit's becoming difficult to deny wikipedia is influentialFeb 12 01:42
joseref: 12 01:42
schestowitzI love Wikipedia, even if it has some wrinklesFeb 12 01:44
schestowitzReading Wikipedia is supporting it too.Feb 12 01:44
schestowitzit's mutual or peer love (to those who contribute).Feb 12 01:44
josenoel from ietf replied to my reply (to his canned reply to my comment)Feb 12 01:46
josehe isn't a fan of the fsfFeb 12 01:46
schestowitzno, he ain;tFeb 12 01:49
schestowitzI put his remarks in linuxtoday for all to seeFeb 12 01:49
schestowitzI also spread it among the ffii and anti-sw pats peopleFeb 12 01:50
schestowitzmailing lists i'm onFeb 12 01:50
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balzacroy, can I see which article on LinuxToday you're referring to?Feb 12 02:10
balzacI always like to see a good sting.Feb 12 02:10
schestowitzIt's here: 12 02:11
balzac Help Fight This Patent-Encumbered IETF StandardFeb 12 02:12
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schestowitzbalzac: FDDaily gone very quietly. Is it related to FSMan ending sort of?Feb 12 02:19
schestowitz*quit recentlyFeb 12 02:19
balzacFSDaily?Feb 12 02:19
balzacno, FSM (Free Software Magazine) is not going anywhere. They've changed from having issues to not delivering content according to a schedule.Feb 12 02:20
balzacFSDaily is different but relatedFeb 12 02:20
balzacTony from FSM has stopped developing his Drupal module and he's handing it off to another maintainer.Feb 12 02:21
schestowitzI corresponded with him about it last yearFeb 12 02:22
balzacDave of FSDaily is still publishing but I've noticed a slight decrease in the number of entries in recent days.Feb 12 02:22
amarsh04anyone good on hardware - been having lock-ups and found my network card's bootrom socket pins touching the bare aluminium heatsinkFeb 12 02:22
balzacThey're both community sites as well, so the pace depends not just on their respective editors.Feb 12 02:23
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amarsh04I've put some cardboard in between and hope that the lock-ups happen no moreFeb 12 02:23
amarsh04fsm had some good articles (and I *really* liked the bizarre cathedral (-:)Feb 12 02:24
balzacamarsh04: have you checked the log files and the core dump after lock-ups?Feb 12 02:24
balzacyeah, the latest bizarre cathedral is funnyFeb 12 02:24
balzacRoy, maybe you can syndicate bizarre cathedral for a bit of humor on BNFeb 12 02:24
amarsh04nothing shown, balzac. Just a complete lock-up. Keyboard won't even turn off capslock and numlock lights. Sometimes the screen is on and frozenFeb 12 02:25
balzacI was thinking of putting Mibbit on my site and routing visitors of here. Not that I get any site visitors...Feb 12 02:25
schestowitzamarsh04: they had a new cartoon todayFeb 12 02:26
schestowitzbalzac: yes, I intended to post that. Do you mean import an image?Feb 12 02:26
balzacI think I ought to directly syndicate BN postings on Disruptech as well.Feb 12 02:26
schestowitzpls doFeb 12 02:27
josestayed longer than i thought i wouldFeb 12 02:27
schestowitzpass the infoFeb 12 02:27
josehumor is goodFeb 12 02:27
balzacI guess not import the cartoon its self but just the notification when there's a new one.Feb 12 02:27
josegnFeb 12 02:27
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schestowitzis there a static url that points to the latest img from bizarre cathedral?Feb 12 02:27
schestowitzIt would lighten up pagesFeb 12 02:28
balzacmaybe so.Feb 12 02:28
schestowitz 12 02:34
balzacnice cartoonFeb 12 02:37
balzacbut the poor guy uses SUSEFeb 12 02:37
balzacI have nothing against SUSE except for that Novell basically controls it.Feb 12 02:38
balzacalso, I saw a banner for Opera. Opera is just annoying.Feb 12 02:40
balzacThey make a lot of noise like a free software project, but they're just making another proprietary browser. Who cares about a browser which has such tiny market-share *and* it's proprietary?Feb 12 02:41
balzacOpera evangelists are always screaming about Firefox. Apples and Oranges.Feb 12 02:42
balzacOpera should be screaming about IE instead.Feb 12 02:42
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schestowitzbalzac: yes, he sort of criticised us tooFeb 12 02:43
schestowitzOpera should become Free softwraeFeb 12 02:44
schestowitzIt's actually a good browser.Feb 12 02:44
schestowitzhmmmmm... in each blog I get spam of different 'flavours'Feb 12 02:45
schestowitzIt's like there are different blogspam gangs. BN gets all the pr0nFeb 12 02:45
balzacwell, good browser or not, it's nothing to me.Feb 12 02:45
schestowitzin I get huge crapfloods of nonsense.Feb 12 02:45
balzacthey should become free software, but even then I'd be pretty tired of them for all the sniping at Firefox.Feb 12 02:47
balzacas if they're even competing with FFFeb 12 02:47
balzacbut, I know Asa of Mozilla likes to talk trash right back, so what can I say?Feb 12 02:48
balzacI'm about to start playing around with cURL so maybe I'll blog-spam your comments.Feb 12 02:49
balzacdon't you have captchas?Feb 12 02:49
schestowitzYes, Asa 'fought' usFeb 12 02:49
schestowitzMac fanFeb 12 02:50
balzacus being opera fans?Feb 12 02:50
balzacdon't tell me you use opera?Feb 12 02:51
schestowitzHe trashed Linux tooFeb 12 02:51
schestowitzI don't use OperaFeb 12 02:51
balzacI went into #opensolaris and argued in favor of releasing Solaris under GPLv3, back when they were considering it.Feb 12 02:52
balzacI was ready to drop linux like a hot rockFeb 12 02:52
balzacI've got my eye on the hurd project which gets GSOC grantsFeb 12 02:53
schestowitzCool.Feb 12 02:55
schestowitzI'd like to see the look on Linus' face if he was bypassed by GNUFeb 12 02:55
balzacno kiddingFeb 12 02:55
schestowitzHe would not longer call people "masturbating monkeys"Feb 12 02:56
balzacI guess #opensolaris wasn't established before they had already released it under CDDL, so the die was cast when I went in to argue about it.Feb 12 02:56
balzacheheFeb 12 02:56
balzacI remember that comment. who was it in regards to again?Feb 12 02:57
balzacI remember how Linus rampaged in the gnome forum about how crappy gnome was. Now he's switched from KDE to Gnome.Feb 12 02:58
balzacoh, it was about BSD developers. In that instance, i agreed with Linus.Feb 12 02:58
balzacWhat's his name from OpenBSD is such a joker.Feb 12 02:58
balzacDesparately trying to stay relevantFeb 12 02:58
balzacToo bad about their weak license.Feb 12 02:59
schestowitzYes, Apple can stomp on themFeb 12 03:00
schestowitzThen carving Apple logo and hail King Jobs rather than offer attribution to the real developersFeb 12 03:00
balzachave you seen the cartoons or heard the songs which are released with BSD?Feb 12 03:00
schestowitzI haven't, noFeb 12 03:00
balzacoh my godFeb 12 03:00
balzac 12 03:01
balzac 12 03:02
balzaccheck out the second one down from the top with the oddessy themeFeb 12 03:03
balzacopenbsd is the bitter and jealous among the open source software communities.Feb 12 03:03
balzacthe most bitterFeb 12 03:04
balzacI honestly feel sorry for them.Feb 12 03:05
balzacbut I wondered if it wouldn't make sense for M$ to do what Apple has done and draw off the BSD code base for when Windows becomes un-sustainable.Feb 12 03:05
balzacbecause they're bitter against the success of the GPL just like OpenBSD.Feb 12 03:06
balzacIt could be a perfect match of ideology and desperation.Feb 12 03:06
schestowitzBSDers scare me :-)Feb 12 03:11
balzacHe scores a rhetorical point about the language of the four freedomsFeb 12 03:11
balzacbut apart from that, GPL software has mopped the floor with BSD-licensed software overall.Feb 12 03:12
balzacPHP went from GPL to a BSD-style licenseFeb 12 03:12
twitterha ha, greed killed the elevator star pusher. 12 03:13
balzacnevertheless, the "copyleft" has become the gold standard because it doesn't allow some corporation to devour your project and piss all over you.Feb 12 03:13
twitteryeah I don't understand letting others use your code to oppress people.Feb 12 03:15
balzacalso, GNU has a more permissive license as well - the lgplFeb 12 03:15
balzacI don't see investing a lot of time in a project with others when a company can hire your friends, but leave you out, and then take the code-tree proprietary.Feb 12 03:16
balzacimagine if you were a project initiator or partner, then a company bought all your friends out and sent you away empty handed?Feb 12 03:17
twitterWhy make a gift for abusers?Feb 12 03:17
twitterThey could just take the code without the buy out.Feb 12 03:17
balzacsure, but the developers tend to be acquired along with a given project for their familiarity with the code.Feb 12 03:18
schestowitzpostgres?Feb 12 03:18
twitterOne or two for a year or so are all that's needed.  It's not like code owners improve things.Feb 12 03:18
twitterat best they "integrate" it with their existing code before closing it up and losing the key.Feb 12 03:19
balzaci'm not very familiar with the postgres projectFeb 12 03:20
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balzacBut PHP switching away from GPL-licensing has me inclined to turn my attention towards another languageFeb 12 03:22
balzacnot a strong inclination, but it just got my attentionFeb 12 03:22
tessierYou shouldn't be using PHP anyway. Not unless you enjoy running a remote root server.Feb 12 03:24
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balzacwell, my primary web development platform is php-based, as are the lion's share of GPL-licensed web applicationsFeb 12 03:25
schestowitzWell, the good ones anywayFeb 12 03:26
balzacThe more highly evolved ones, just because PHP has been around longer than Python and Ruby as an Apache module.Feb 12 03:27
balzacBut how about Sovix?Feb 12 03:27
balzacthat's AGPL-licensedFeb 12 03:27
balzacsounds interestingFeb 12 03:27
balzacFSF runs on Plone with is python-basedFeb 12 03:28
balzacFSF.orgFeb 12 03:28
balzacIIRCFeb 12 03:28
balzacDrupal caught fire from being the CMS of KernelTrap.orgFeb 12 03:29
balzacI'm thinking about Hunchentoot as a web serverFeb 12 03:31
balzacI've read so many great things about LISP and I use Emacs every day for web programming.Feb 12 03:31
balzacHow about Hunchentoot on the Hurd?Feb 12 03:31
balzacThere's a lot of work to be done on those projects, and that contributes to my sense of urgency for the GNU project to get more adequate and proportional funding.Feb 12 03:32
balzacGNU is so important, but still doesn't get the red-carpet treatment like the Linux project.Feb 12 03:33
balzacCompanies like Google and Redhat deserve to be shaken-down on behalf of GNU and the FSF.Feb 12 03:33
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balzacI hope to see the Hurd become a contender over the next few years.Feb 12 03:35
schestowitzkerneltrap went to sleep a while agoFeb 12 03:36
balzacI wonder whyFeb 12 03:36
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schestowitzGNU gets no red carpet because of the philosophyFeb 12 03:36
schestowitzIt scares the likes of IBMFeb 12 03:36
balzacWell, Google has no excuse, nor does Redhat.Feb 12 03:37
schestowitzThe FSF is there to replace exploitation and displace intellectual monopolies.Feb 12 03:37
balzacthey're not old companies and they owe their very existence to the success of GPL-licensed projects.Feb 12 03:37
balzacI just want to see the Hurd acheive lift-offFeb 12 03:38
tessierbalzac: I too am very interested in lisp and emacs.Feb 12 03:38
tessierI use emacs but only for basic stuff. I want to learn it better. The idea of an editor with an integrated language to make it extensible is clearly very powerfulFeb 12 03:39
balzactessier: I keep reading about advances in some of the new programming languages - they're adding features LISP has always had.Feb 12 03:39
tessierbalzac: it's true.Feb 12 03:40
balzacbut I'm actually not literate enough as a programmer or math-geek to know.Feb 12 03:40
tessierThe only exception really being perhaps Erlang's message passingFeb 12 03:40
balzacI need to get deep enough  into programming that I run up against the limitations of a language.Feb 12 03:43
balzacbut then again, one lesson I've learned after wasting years on proprietary software is this: software which is not intelligently designed can make you feel dumb and helpless.Feb 12 03:43
balzacI should probably go straight into the most advanced language available.Feb 12 03:44
balzacI've heard that lisp programmers can get specialized jobs of a higher order.Feb 12 03:47
balzactessier: the idea of an editor with an integrated language for extensibility is powerful, but the idea of an editor which is not extensible is just dumb.Feb 12 03:49
balzacIt's like a builder who entombs themselves inside the building.Feb 12 03:50
balzacI guess that's only good for the pharoah.Feb 12 03:51
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schestowitz4:30, time to sleepFeb 12 04:28
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mib_2v2vy7goodmorningFeb 12 07:46
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Samadhi ALLFeb 12 09:23
SamadGd AfternoonFeb 12 09:23
SamadICan anyone help me on driver programmingFeb 12 09:24
amarsh04not really, I'm not a developer, but are you looking for a mailing list appropriate for a particular kind of driver?Feb 12 09:28
Samadok thanksFeb 12 09:29
MinceRoh haiFeb 12 09:37
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schestowitzMorning.Feb 12 10:17
MinceRo/Feb 12 10:17
schestowitz\0/Feb 12 10:18
schestowitz"A particularly pro-Silverlight article:  Silverlight for Linux hits with Microsoft punch Clarke is very uneven. This article has too much MS PR in it. I mean, look at this:"Feb 12 10:20
schestowitz""The media pack also carries valuable legal clout for Linux users. It features codecs that have already been licensed by Microsoft from major media companies and are worth $1m per user. Moonlight users are indemnified against litigation that might arise from their use in Moonlight." What is that, a joke??"Feb 12 10:21
schestowitzIt's not a joke though, it's just  typical Gavin, friend of the Vole. 12 10:21
oiaohmSome how I don't think MS is paying 1 million per user.Feb 12 10:32
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schestowitz1 trillion dollars spent on advertising/marketing in 1992... creating artificial wants..Feb 12 10:51
oiaohmGame is getting more interesting.Feb 12 11:15
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schestowitzFFII is apparently disagreeing with what FSF did to IETF.Feb 12 11:28
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schestowitzFilmmaker Accuses Facebook Of Censorship < >Feb 12 11:37
oiaohm  Great we might have a domino effectFeb 12 11:38
schestowitzI was just thinking about this less than a week ago. China also has satellite interception systems and its tests disseminated debris.Feb 12 11:40
oiaohmThere are still a lot of old non transmitting sats up there.Feb 12 11:41
schestowitz JunkyardFeb 12 11:41
schestowitzThey worry about cleaning up later. There's no money in cleaning upFeb 12 11:42
oiaohmOk last operation sat is meant to do is thrust it self into a decaying orbit for distruction.Feb 12 11:44
oiaohmOnly one problem some complete screwed up internally before that operation could be done.Feb 12 11:45
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oiaohmReally china intercept system is messy.Feb 12 11:45
schestowitzWell, it's interception. It's not intended to be clear.Feb 12 11:48
schestowitz*clean. Maybe when we mess up Earth's orbit we can launch some new ones around the Moon :-)Feb 12 11:49
oiaohmThey hit it the wrong way.Feb 12 11:49
oiaohmIe go over the sat and hit it coming back in.Feb 12 11:49
oiaohmSo driving sat and rocket bits into a decaying obit.Feb 12 11:49
schestowitzThere's no reason why it's wrong for China and not for the USFeb 12 11:50
oiaohmIt is China has a booming sat launch businessFeb 12 11:50
oiaohmPaid on suscessful lanch.Feb 12 11:50
schestowitzWe're done polluting the Earth's atmosphere, now we're polluting the stratosphere.Feb 12 11:50
oiaohmI wonder if a growning halo of rubish is being looked for as a possable sign of life.Feb 12 11:51
schestowitzGoogle surges in U.S. search engine rankings < >Feb 12 11:53
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 12 11:53:36 2009
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 12 11:54:00 2009
*Now talking on #boycottnovellFeb 12 11:54
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: "Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications" [publicly logged]Feb 12 11:54
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Sun Oct 5 19:20:28 2008Feb 12 11:54
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channelFeb 12 11:54
*ChanServ gives channel operator status to schestowitzFeb 12 11:54
schestowitzOops. Wrong keyFeb 12 11:54
oiaohmIt happensFeb 12 11:58
oiaohmAt least you did not power the server off.Feb 12 11:59
schestowitz "glynmoody: Welcome, @caostheory (Matthew Aslett): we missed you here."Feb 12 12:04
schestowitzLots of FOSS people choose the rival. Why??? "Do as I say, not as I do..."Feb 12 12:05
schestowitzWhat Alabamians and Iranians Have in Common < >Feb 12 12:07
*burmas ( has left #boycottnovell ("Konversation terminated!")Feb 12 12:07
*mib_qu2903 (i=cb4562f6@gateway/web/ajax/ has joined #boycottnovellFeb 12 12:10
schestowitzSpot the contradiction: and . One day he likes non-Free codecs, the next day he does not like them (or vice versa)Feb 12 12:11
schestowitz "In a time of deepening economic gloom, it’s easy to see how these rumors can gain creditability. Bruce said that Novell’s cuts were “in response to the global economic downturn.”"Feb 12 12:12
schestowitzStill denying it, just like Microsoft did months before it happened (Microsoft lied)Feb 12 12:12
*mib_qu2903 has quit (Client Quit)Feb 12 12:13
oiaohmNovell has a nice soft cussion to reduce its job losses.Feb 12 12:15
schestowitzCuba Launches Own Linux Variant to Counter U.S. 12 12:15
oiaohmName MicrosoftFeb 12 12:15
*Eruaran ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 12 12:15
Eruaranhi RoyFeb 12 12:15
schestowitzHey, what's up?Feb 12 12:16
EruaranI have a link here to a blog that is very interestingFeb 12 12:16
Eruaran 12 12:16
EruaranThe Crandrea Group is a lobby group of Microsoft shareholdersFeb 12 12:18
schestowitzI.e. part of the Cult. let me read..Feb 12 12:18
EruaranThey want Ballmer goneFeb 12 12:18
schestowitzLobby =  legalised briberyFeb 12 12:18
schestowitzEruaran: :-)Feb 12 12:19
EruaranThey're lobbying other shareholders to take actionFeb 12 12:19
schestowitz10 posts only in this blogFeb 12 12:19
EruaranyesFeb 12 12:19
schestowitzAre they relevant. I think I heard of them beforeFeb 12 12:19
schestowitzEruaran: ic...Feb 12 12:19
*schestowitz looks for an article..Feb 12 12:20
EruaranFirst time I've heard of them tonightFeb 12 12:20
schestowitz 12 12:20
*schestowitz looking for a different oneFeb 12 12:20
schestowitzEruaran: I have about 12 refs on asking Ballmer to goFeb 12 12:20
schestowitzLet me get them for you.Feb 12 12:20
EruarankFeb 12 12:20
EruaranI've been saying for a while this was going to happenFeb 12 12:21
schestowitzOK, it's here: 12 12:21
schestowitzScroll down a bit thoughFeb 12 12:21
schestowitz 12 12:22
schestowitzI can't quite find the article about the lady who sort of grilled Ballmer as a disappointed investorFeb 12 12:22
schestowitzThis whole relationship of sponsoring tyrannies for maximal exploitation if extremely harmful (in general)Feb 12 12:22
schestowitzIf you ask yourself, what is the accountability and what are these companies doing, you realise they can be very harmful to society because there is n legal obligation to account for things like human rights, environment, etc. it's taken to the extreme in the US, I think...Feb 12 12:23
Eruaran"The chances of Windows 7 suddenly winning over Windows XP users in droves are slim to none. Windows 7 is a better Vista but doesn't deliver enough advantages or differentiation from Windows XP to woo XP users"Feb 12 12:25
oiaohmNotice free upgrade from Vista to Windows 7Feb 12 12:25
oiaohmOnly for OEM users.Feb 12 12:25
oiaohmNice all those people who aquired upgraded from home to ultFeb 12 12:25
oiaohmAre so screwed.Feb 12 12:26
schestowitzVista->VIsta7=SPFeb 12 12:26
schestowitz+marketing(perception)Feb 12 12:27
Eruaran"I've been using the Windows 7 public beta as my full-time laptop OS and have reached some pretty firm conclusions about Windows 7's ability to woo XP, Vista, Linux and Mac users over to the new OS."Feb 12 12:27
schestowitzSource?Feb 12 12:28
schestowitzBTW, BetaVista7 is no more (to downloaders)Feb 12 12:28
Eruaran"OS marketshare will probably continue to decrease"Feb 12 12:28
schestowitzSince yesterday or the day before thatFeb 12 12:28
EruaranThis is all from the Crandrea Group blogFeb 12 12:28
oiaohmWindows 7 is a improvement over vistaFeb 12 12:28
schestowitzI wonder if some more of primitivism will increase due to the economic slumpFeb 12 12:29
oiaohmStill compared to XP its performance still could do with work.Feb 12 12:29
schestowitzref to ""OS marketshare will probably continue to decrease"Feb 12 12:29
schestowitzIDC has revealed that less PCs are soldFeb 12 12:29
schestowitzThey become less of a priority to people.Feb 12 12:29
oiaohmPS I recycle systems.Feb 12 12:29
schestowitzoiaohm: yes,cannibalise sales that isFeb 12 12:29
EruaranVista 7 still uses too much in the way of resourcesFeb 12 12:29
EruaranIt wont win over stalwart XP usersFeb 12 12:30
schestowitzEruaran: there is no Vista7Feb 12 12:30
schestowitzThat's the thingFeb 12 12:30
schestowitzIt's a betaFeb 12 12:30
schestowitzVista7 doesn't exist yetFeb 12 12:30
schestowitzThey can do all sorts of things to deceitFeb 12 12:30
EruaranI've been testing the betaFeb 12 12:30
oiaohmNote anything is a improvement over vistaFeb 12 12:30
schestowitzVista7 will make you coffeeFeb 12 12:30
schestowitz*deceiveFeb 12 12:30
oiaohmRunning Debian 5 when its not released yet is a improvment over vista.Feb 12 12:30
schestowitzoiaohm: other OSes evolve tooFeb 12 12:31
schestowitzDebian is out in 2 daysFeb 12 12:31
oiaohmI have been running Debain 5 for the last 8 months.Feb 12 12:31
EruaranWindows 7 build 7000 cannot compete with a good distro running KDE 4.2Feb 12 12:32
EruaranSo, they will push multitouch really hardFeb 12 12:32
schestowitzSome debian devs will go out with the g/fs, others will just fsck their HDDs in preparation for an upgradeFeb 12 12:32
oiaohmKDE 4.2 is not fully cooked yet.  Most likely stick with KDE 3.5 until 4.3Feb 12 12:32
schestowitzoiaohm: KDE 3.5.x is here to stay until 2010+Feb 12 12:33
EruaranProblem is, there is no really solid, useful, practical application of multitouch beyond gimmick and extra expense with multitouch monitors...Feb 12 12:33
schestowitzThey have KDE deployed in important placesFeb 12 12:33
oiaohmPitty has not released 1.6.0 yet.Feb 12 12:33
EruaranI've been using Gnome for some months nowFeb 12 12:33
oiaohmAt least other key merges have happened.Feb 12 12:33
schestowitzLinus ought to have been patient! He tried 4.0 (!!) ferchristsakeFeb 12 12:33
oiaohmMulti touch has use in phonesFeb 12 12:34
EruaranKDE 4.x might not be fully cooked, but its looking rather nice in the oven there... the ping of the timer will ring soonFeb 12 12:34
oiaohmKDE 3.x only become good at about 3.4Feb 12 12:35
oiaohmSo if kde 4 becomes good at 4.3 they have beaten the record.Feb 12 12:35
Eruaranoiaohm: yes, one of the reasons for Apples huge success is how it implemented multitouch, in a useful appropriate and fun wayFeb 12 12:35
oiaohmIssue here Multi touch is not a unque feature.Feb 12 12:35
schestowitzoiaohm: not trueFeb 12 12:35
Eruaranoiaohm: KDE4 will beat that record and in much less timeFeb 12 12:35
schestowitzI used 3.1 until 2007 and I loved itFeb 12 12:36
schestowitzThere were hardly any bugs, eitherFeb 12 12:36
oiaohmI stuck with enlightment back then.Feb 12 12:36
EruaranKDE4 is travelling very quicklyFeb 12 12:36
oiaohmIe 3.1Feb 12 12:36
oiaohmtheming got solidly sorted out in 3.4.Feb 12 12:36
EruaranI am quite impressed with KDE4's pace of developmentFeb 12 12:37
oiaohmKDE 4.2 most of it works on windows.Feb 12 12:37
oiaohmKDE 4.3 or 4.4 cross OS desktop might appear.Feb 12 12:37
Eruaranyou can bet your booties Microsoft couldn't match that, and I think the Gnome community would spend more time talking about what they're going to do rather than doing itFeb 12 12:37
oiaohmThat gives MS another strange competition problem.Feb 12 12:37
oiaohmIts no longer person choose OS.Feb 12 12:38
oiaohmIt person choose what they like using.  So hiding what OS they really have.Feb 12 12:38
EruaranGeos ran on DOSFeb 12 12:38
EruaranRemember GeoWorks Ensemble ?Feb 12 12:38
oiaohmI remember it.Feb 12 12:39
oiaohmIts not like what KDE is doign.Feb 12 12:39
EruarantrueFeb 12 12:39
EruaranBut I thought I'd mention itFeb 12 12:39
oiaohmKDE is creating a platform that has not ties to OS's.Feb 12 12:39
EruaranBack in those days we all liked Geos much better than WindowsFeb 12 12:39
oiaohmThat is a really nasty wrinkle of a problem for MS.Feb 12 12:39
Eruaranbut yes, Geos was tied to DOSFeb 12 12:39
Eruaranoiaohm: its the KDE turn-the-tables version of Embrace and ExtendFeb 12 12:40
EruaranCan you imagine the faces at Microsoft when someone realises at Redmond, "WERE being embraced and extended !"Feb 12 12:41
EruaranI'm not sure how it will pan out, but its subversive enough on Windows to be funFeb 12 12:42
EruaranKDE on Windows is second class thoughFeb 12 12:42
EruaranYou don't get full functionalityFeb 12 12:42
EruaranIf you want all the goodies you have to use LinuxFeb 12 12:43
Eruaran;)Feb 12 12:43
EruaranIts the reverse of something like MoonlightFeb 12 12:43
EruaranBut once K3B is smooth and stable on KDE/Windows, we will be pre-installing it on our customers Windows systems instead of Nero (and good riddance too).Feb 12 12:45
oiaohmIts kontact I am waiting on particularly.Feb 12 12:46
EruaranoohFeb 12 12:47
oiaohmSo I can say by by to MS exchange.Feb 12 12:47
EruaranniceFeb 12 12:47
oiaohmI have quite a few good burning programs for windows that are free.Feb 12 12:47
EruaranNero tends to be what always gets pre installedFeb 12 12:47
oiaohmsamba with ADS will also be good.Feb 12 12:48
oiaohmNero comes a lot OEM with burners.Feb 12 12:48
EruaranThe walls of Jerico are crumblingFeb 12 12:48
Eruaranyes, it comes with lite-on and LG too I thinkFeb 12 12:48
EruaranBut its trialwareFeb 12 12:49
EruaranFor us, the phone calls from Windows uses who complain their trialware doesn't function fully any more are really an annoying time waster... So, K3B, which we love, running on Windows is very attractive.Feb 12 12:50
EruaranAnd most Windows users dont even look for something else, they hate Nero, but just keep using it... (maybe they've been programmed like that by using Windows)... So, whatever we spoon feed them, they will take it.Feb 12 12:51
EruaranWe will give them K3B.Feb 12 12:52
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, KDE 3.1 had very minor issues with themes. Very minorFeb 12 12:52
EruaranMy gnome desktop has issuesFeb 12 12:53
schestowitzoiaohm: Microsoft will hardly permit GUI on top of WindowsFeb 12 12:53
schestowitzUnless it's theirsFeb 12 12:53
schestowitzWait. I'll show you using internal correspondence.Feb 12 12:53
schestowitz 12 12:53
schestowitzI have more. In short, they control how the 'computer' is presented. They are very zealous about it.Feb 12 12:54
schestowitzThat's why H-P turned to Linux for its own OSFeb 12 12:54
EruaranWe don't really care that much about the GUI, KDE as a GUI on Windows is more of a novelty at this stage... but the apps, there's real firepower there.Feb 12 12:54
EruaranI think at this stage Microsoft should be more worried about KDE apps appearing on WindowsFeb 12 12:55
EruaranFamiliarity with Linux apps will break down barriersFeb 12 12:55
oiaohmMore the fact that all users can be on the same interfaceFeb 12 12:55
oiaohmSo business manuals for use of difference machine becomes simpler to write.Feb 12 12:56
Eruaranoiaohm: yes, I can see what you meanFeb 12 12:56
oiaohmits an annoying little theat.  Make a mono culture wihout having a mono culture OS network.Feb 12 12:56
EruaranM$ will surely try to do something to stop KDE on WindowsFeb 12 12:57
oiaohmMost things in kde start lives as noteltys before turning into major threats.Feb 12 12:57
oiaohmLittle bit hard.Feb 12 12:57
EruaranyesFeb 12 12:57
oiaohmKDE uses QTFeb 12 12:57
oiaohmBreak QT break Adobe.Feb 12 12:57
oiaohmWelcome to MS house of cards.Feb 12 12:58
EruaranMicrosoft did sniff arount Trolltech (Qt Software) a bit through a deal with Broadcom... but it all went quiet when Qt went GPLv3Feb 12 12:58
EruaranAnd then Nokia came along...Feb 12 12:58
EruaranAnd surprisingly, they go lets do LGPLFeb 12 12:59
oiaohmTrolltech enabled the good anti MS defence.Feb 12 12:59
oiaohmMS will not aquire anything under GPLv3 its a threat to there patentsFeb 12 12:59
oiaohmOf course nokia don't give a rats abotu software other than it works to sell there devices.Feb 12 13:00
EruaranMicrosoft could still try and hobble KDE on Windows like they did with DR-DOSFeb 12 13:00
oiaohmDR-Dos is different.Feb 12 13:01
oiaohmDR-Dos was cloning the Dos system.Feb 12 13:01
EruaranWhat I mean is they could potentially try a similar strategyFeb 12 13:01
oiaohmKDE is simply building a new system over the top.Feb 12 13:01
oiaohmLittle hard to attack that.  KDE can alter its stack to cope with what every MS does.Feb 12 13:01
EruarantrueFeb 12 13:01
oiaohmOne problem MS will break a lot of applciations they depend on attempt to attack KDE.Feb 12 13:02
EruaranBut, I would expect Microsoft to try somethingFeb 12 13:02
oiaohmIe house of cards.Feb 12 13:02
oiaohmAttack KDE bring own house of cards down.Feb 12 13:02
oiaohmOnly chance MS has is to get .net to really take off.Feb 12 13:02
EruaranI dont' see that happeningFeb 12 13:02
oiaohmFor that to happen MS has to bite the big one.Feb 12 13:03
oiaohmand compete the same way KDE is.Feb 12 13:03
EruaranI think the Windows registry is the first place Microsoft will go to try and hobble KDEFeb 12 13:03
EruaranThey'll put shite in the registryFeb 12 13:03
oiaohmKDE on windows does not use the Windows registry.Feb 12 13:03
EruaranohFeb 12 13:03
Eruaranwell...Feb 12 13:03
EruaranhahaFeb 12 13:03
oiaohmYes KDE developers are not fools.Feb 12 13:04
Eruaran:PFeb 12 13:04
oiaohmOk overally conventent.Feb 12 13:04
oiaohmBut not fools.Feb 12 13:04
MinceR140627 < oiaohm> DR-Dos was cloning the Dos system.Feb 12 13:05
MinceR...which was cloning the CP/M systemFeb 12 13:05
MinceRstealing code from itFeb 12 13:05
MinceRand CP/M was a DR product :>Feb 12 13:05
oiaohmYeFeb 12 13:05
oiaohmCatch is who controled the int calls MinceRFeb 12 13:05
oiaohmMS so DR-Dos ended up screwed.Feb 12 13:06
EruaranThe Microsoft Malicioius Software Removal ToolFeb 12 13:07
EruaranIt gets forced on people in Windows updatesFeb 12 13:07
EruaranohFeb 12 13:08
EruaranToday i watched IE7 take fully something like half an hour to install on a systemFeb 12 13:09
EruaranI was like, "what the hell is it doing ?"Feb 12 13:09
MinceRthe mistake was letting it install ;)Feb 12 13:16
EruaranThe mistake is letting Windows installFeb 12 13:16
EruaranBut the customer wants what the customer wants...Feb 12 13:17
schestowitzIE7 is an installation softwarer for WindowsFeb 12 13:17
schestowitzYou visit a Web site, you come back with new soft/malwareFeb 12 13:17
schestowitzIt's also an update mechanismFeb 12 13:18
MinceR:)Feb 12 13:18
*amarsh04 doesn't like "captcha" on public utility sites that don't offer any option of becoming a registered user ie 12 13:27
*oiaohm_ ( has joined #boycottnovellFeb 12 13:33
*oiaohm has quit (Nick collision from services.)Feb 12 13:35

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