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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: February 12th, 2009 - Part 2

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twitterM$ can sabotage anything touched by Windows.Feb 12 13:48
twitterEven dual booting is not safe, as the "blows away OS/2" in "ALL CASES" email showed.Feb 12 13:49
twitterThe worst possible thing to have happen is M$ moles writing software that gets trojaned into free software - like they are doing with Novell.Feb 12 13:50
schestowitzayeFeb 12 13:51
schestowitzThey can also help 'extend' KDE the Windows way, like they did with Java (and failed after being sued and all)Feb 12 13:52
oiaohm_Not that simple to extendFeb 12 13:52
twitterKDE Windows efforts are a crazy waste of time.Feb 12 13:52
oiaohm_It means touching something protected by LGPL v3.0Feb 12 13:52
twitterPorting to Windows will "extend" KDE.Feb 12 13:53
oiaohm_Not really twitter biggest issue for people moving OS's is the application divide.Feb 12 13:53
oiaohm_KDE on Windows closes that divide.Feb 12 13:53
twitterno, the biggest issue moving to free software is getting over the M$ brainwash.Feb 12 13:53
twitterGNU/Linux has a much richer application set - that should be an incentive to moving not a "divide"Feb 12 13:54
oiaohm_Ok simple question what open source emial client on windows has stable support for device sync.Feb 12 13:55
oiaohm_Change in a lot of cases cannot happen instantly twitter.Feb 12 13:55
twitterWhat non free software email client has stable sync support?Feb 12 13:55
oiaohm_OutlookFeb 12 13:55
twitternone of that shit is stable because M$ sabotages it periodically.Feb 12 13:55
oiaohm_Kontact does on Linux.Feb 12 13:56
twitterI have seen Outlook sabotaged against Palm.Feb 12 13:56
oiaohm_There is a simple divide issue.Feb 12 13:56
twitterit's brainwash - GNU/Linux is better.  People only have to use it for a while to realize this.Feb 12 13:56
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oiaohm_Its not that simple.Feb 12 13:57
schestowitzhttp://digg.com/linux_unix/...Feb 12 13:57
oiaohm_Change overs that are piece by piece are fare less plainful and less likely to case hell twitterFeb 12 13:57
schestowitzSupport the (plasma) troopsFeb 12 13:57
oiaohm_Or at least minor hell.Feb 12 13:58
twitterThere are very few places where software that works on Windows has an advantage - small technical niches. More than 95% are better off with GNU/LinuxFeb 12 13:58
oiaohm_The biggest cost of coverting to Linux is jumping the divide.Feb 12 13:58
twitterThe sooner you jump, the more you save.Feb 12 13:58
oiaohm_Remove the divide more people will cross.Feb 12 13:58
oiaohm_As long as your business surves it.Feb 12 13:59
oiaohm_That is the issue.  KDE is addressing with its ports to Windows to mac.Feb 12 13:59
schestowitzKDE for Windows might not be crucialFeb 12 13:59
oiaohm_If everything about your operation is working in a cross platform way changing the base platform has basically no major effects on operations.Feb 12 13:59
twitterWhat exactly will "kill" a business in a jump that the usual security problems don't do to businesses every year?Feb 12 13:59
schestowitzIf people need Windows apps, they have virtualbox and wineFeb 12 13:59
twitterexactlyFeb 12 13:59
schestowitzThey can use a secure platform. The last thing we need is KDE users whining about malware and Registry clogupFeb 12 14:00
oiaohm_virtualbox still required a windows licence.Feb 12 14:00
twitterIBM did this for Munich years ago.Feb 12 14:00
schestowitzoiaohm_: using Windows requires a licence too :-)Feb 12 14:00
twitterIt was cheaper to have a few licenses for the few people who needed it and to have it served out than it was to have the whole Windows disaster.Feb 12 14:01
oiaohm_Goal is to no longer need them.Feb 12 14:01
oiaohm_Not to have them hanging around.Feb 12 14:01
twitterThe sooner you get rid of them the closer you are to the goal.Feb 12 14:01
oiaohm_Virtual box has trouble with direct x support still.Feb 12 14:01
twitterKDE Windows efforts are moving south when they need to move north.Feb 12 14:01
oiaohm_Breaks some accountancy packages by the way.Feb 12 14:01
twitterWine works with direct x.Feb 12 14:02
oiaohm_Its wine direct x in virtual box twitterFeb 12 14:02
twitterI know people who have used GNU/Linux as engineers in a heavy windows environment.  They got along well.Feb 12 14:03
oiaohm_Simple fact virtualisation does not cover all problems yet.Feb 12 14:03
oiaohm_Neither does wine.Feb 12 14:03
oiaohm_KDE on Windows closes down the gap.Feb 12 14:03
twitterIt covered all of his problems and he's exactly the kind of niche worker that you would worry about.Feb 12 14:03
twitterKDE on Windows would do nothing for him.Feb 12 14:04
oiaohm_Worst problem you have is someone seeing something having windows then demarding to have windows on there machine.Feb 12 14:04
oiaohm_KDE on Windows offers a good chance of making locations where windows is needed invisable.Feb 12 14:04
twitterThe worst problem is wasting time porting to windows when you could be making KDE better.Feb 12 14:04
twitterNeeding windows will never be invisible to the people who pay for licensing.Feb 12 14:05
EruaranIf I actually had any respect for, or paid attention to, Windows EULA's I would be paying Microsoft money just to remote in to a workstation at work.Feb 12 14:05
oiaohm_Also kde on windows and mac opens up KDE to feedback from a greater number of people.Feb 12 14:06
twitterGNU/Linux networking is one of the nicest things about Wine and Virtual box.  You can centralize the non free crap and serve it out.Feb 12 14:06
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oiaohm_People who would not normally use Linux.Feb 12 14:06
twitterKDE on windows and Mac will only make Windows and Mac people more comfortable in their slavery.  Then BillG will break it.Feb 12 14:07
oiaohm_I alway remember one band lead.  Its not the girls at the stage chearing or you that you have get there attention of its the ones at the back of room walking out the door.Feb 12 14:07
schestowitz\http://torvalds-family.blogspot.co...Feb 12 14:08
schestowitzhttp://torvalds-family.blogspot.com/20...Feb 12 14:08
twitterThe people walking out are all Windows users moving to GNU/Linux.Feb 12 14:08
oiaohm_Define comfortable what happens the day they change OS and they don't notice the difference other than price.Feb 12 14:08
oiaohm_Will they keep on paying money?Feb 12 14:08
twitterThey can do that now.Feb 12 14:08
oiaohm_Really.Feb 12 14:08
oiaohm_Interface and controls on windows and Linux are massively different.Feb 12 14:09
twitterMost of them already use FF, GIMP, OO, Google and other free software for most of their tasks.Feb 12 14:09
oiaohm_KDE is taking there control panel to Windows as well.Feb 12 14:09
MinceRyou could add a daemon that grows a file with random crap on disk and leaks memory and wastes cpuFeb 12 14:09
twitterBillG will make sure that never works.Feb 12 14:09
MinceRthat would make the experience more windows-like :>Feb 12 14:09
oiaohm_So yes lot of basic configuration for all 3 OS will be madethe same.Feb 12 14:09
schestowitzmallokdeFeb 12 14:10
EruaranIf a million people who might have otherwise purchased Microsoft Office are happily using OpenOffice on Windows, it hurts Microsoft's bottom line. It doesn't matter that the user is still a Windows slave. It hurts Microsoft.Feb 12 14:10
twitterOnly admin types worry about that.Feb 12 14:10
twitterBetter to liberate the people than to hurt M$.Feb 12 14:10
oiaohm_Also KOffice + OpenOffice kinda makes a complete Office suite to go head to head with MS office.Feb 12 14:10
twitterM$ is hurt more that way anyway.Feb 12 14:10
EruaranThere is no single silver bullet that will end Microsoft's monopolistic domination. It is a range of things.Feb 12 14:10
twitterGNU/Linux demand is the only silver bullet.Feb 12 14:11
oiaohm_twitter: is just impossable to convence a person to change everything at once.Feb 12 14:11
MinceRa silver bomb would probably work betterFeb 12 14:11
twitterThe sooner the anti-migration brainwash dies, the sooner M$ dies.Feb 12 14:11
EruaranEver little thing counts.Feb 12 14:11
oiaohm_Its like if you tell a person they have to go up 1000 stairs.Feb 12 14:11
oiaohm_They will not want to do it.Feb 12 14:11
twitterOnly a full migration really helps.  Everything else consumes resources like crazy.Feb 12 14:11
EruaranWindows and Office are Microsoft's cash cows. If you erode either of these you are hurting them.Feb 12 14:11
oiaohm_Yet if you break the same task down into small moves they do it.Feb 12 14:11
oiaohm_Like up 1 floor get x up next foor get y.Feb 12 14:12
oiaohm_They don't even notice.Feb 12 14:12
schestowitzIf people don't use Windows, they don't use Office eitherFeb 12 14:12
oiaohm_That is the kind of migration accross we need for Linux.Feb 12 14:12
twitterMoving from Windows to GNU/Linux is more like falling down a slide than it is climbing stairs.  You get off the Windows treadmill and that saves labor right away.Feb 12 14:12
schestowitzMS understands thisFeb 12 14:12
EruaranA million less Windows users is less money for Microsoft. A million less MS-Office users is also less money for Microsoft.Feb 12 14:12
schestowitzhttp://caps.fool.com/blogs/vie... "Search engines be da**ed, it's the OS that generates money - if the world switches to linux, it will switch to OpenOffice too."Feb 12 14:13
twitterA million Windows KDE users is lockin that M$ loves.Feb 12 14:13
oiaohm_twitter: ok without slowing down on a tread mill geting off can be bad for your health.Feb 12 14:13
MinceRit's less lockin than a million windows non-kde usersFeb 12 14:13
twitterNothing is worse than staying with Windows.Feb 12 14:13
oiaohm_running flat on out a tread mill and going to a dead stop is what you are descibing twitterFeb 12 14:14
twitterNothing is better than a full GNU/Linux migration.Feb 12 14:14
MinceRit's easier to switch once they're used to KDE.Feb 12 14:14
oiaohm_Now there is a way of course but its a trick.Feb 12 14:14
MinceRthey still have the option to switch fully in one step.Feb 12 14:14
twitterIt takes more effort to make things work with Winblows than it does to simply migrate.Feb 12 14:14
oiaohm_And if you get it wrong you get hurt.Feb 12 14:14
EruaranA million Windows KDE users is a million people who may be more likely to switch to Linux rather than upgrade to the next version of Windows that might try to hobble their KDE apps.Feb 12 14:14
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twitterStaying with Windows always hurts more than anything else.Feb 12 14:14
MinceRwell, i'm not the one making the effort, it's the KDE devs -- they've chosen to do so. :>Feb 12 14:14
oiaohm_twitter: name MS most proffitable application.Feb 12 14:15
twitterThe best chance to switch is now, while Vista is dead and Windows 7 is a cheap imitation.Feb 12 14:15
oiaohm_Its not windows.Feb 12 14:15
schestowitzMinceR: http://techdirt.com/articles/20... (Wikipedia's Circular Logic Pops Up Again)Feb 12 14:15
schestowitzIncreasing Concerns Raised Over Google's Book Search Settlement < http://techdirt.com/articles/20090... >Feb 12 14:15
oiaohm_You take out over half there revenue if you can do in MS office twitterFeb 12 14:15
twitterI don't care about M$ profits, I want free users and know that full migration requires less effort than half measures.Feb 12 14:15
oiaohm_twitter: MS needs money to keep on making there software.Feb 12 14:16
MinceR:)Feb 12 14:16
oiaohm_Harm there money harm there future.Feb 12 14:16
MinceRschestowitz: i pasted the /. link yesterday :>Feb 12 14:16
twitterEverytime you let Bill in the door, you give him a chance to bugger you.Feb 12 14:16
schestowitzMinceR: yes, I know.Feb 12 14:16
oiaohm_And if you were using all KDE applications and it happens you are more likely to migrate.Feb 12 14:16
twitterI've been GNU/Linux only for eight years or so.Feb 12 14:17
oiaohm_If you still see your self as locked in by fileformats than the like.Feb 12 14:17
twitterI need Windows like I need a hole in the head.Feb 12 14:17
oiaohm_You stick witht he evil.Feb 12 14:17
twitterI'm typical.Feb 12 14:17
oiaohm_Same here twitterFeb 12 14:17
oiaohm_I did the conversion in 1994Feb 12 14:17
MinceRi've always had a few holes in my headFeb 12 14:17
oiaohm_Yes lot older mind at thisFeb 12 14:17
twitterSo why not just have everyone else move your way.  You know, do as I do, not as I say.Feb 12 14:17
oiaohm_I have tried you method I know the result.Feb 12 14:18
EruaranThe most locked in customers we have are those using Microsoft and Autodesk software.Feb 12 14:18
oiaohm_Its a backlash.Feb 12 14:18
oiaohm_It makess them harder to move off.Feb 12 14:18
oiaohm_My normal process is remove MS office change software over in normal cycles.Feb 12 14:18
twitterYou can give the CAD people a little machine in the corner if you have to.  The rest can suck it up.Feb 12 14:18
oiaohm_Finally end up after a few years fulling on Linux.Feb 12 14:18
twitterIt's amazing how they shut up when you ask them to spend their own money for M$ crap.Feb 12 14:18
oiaohm_Without complaints.  Most people prase it.Feb 12 14:18
twitterI know people who have done migrations - full is best.Feb 12 14:19
oiaohm_Now try your method people complain about X and Y applications not work.Feb 12 14:19
oiaohm_If there is enough of them the backlassh causes a coversion back.Feb 12 14:19
oiaohm_Then they are impossable to move for a long time.Feb 12 14:19
EruaranDude, some of our clients are architects, we can't force them to change platforms.Feb 12 14:19
twittergotta go now.Feb 12 14:20
schestowitzre: Novell layoffs: "I know a couple of dozen both in the States and Germany, but no one had anything. Of course, they may just not be in the loop. The watch continues."Feb 12 14:20
oiaohm_Yep backlash would kill you right Eruaran?Feb 12 14:20
Eruaranoiaohm_: it would harm us yesFeb 12 14:20
EruaranA carrot is better than a stickFeb 12 14:20
oiaohm_Yep.Feb 12 14:21
oiaohm_Youger people to Linux just don't get that yet.Feb 12 14:21
schestowitzYou could have bothFeb 12 14:22
schestowitzPut Windows in a (virtual)boxFeb 12 14:23
schestowitzI worry that KDE devs will spend time fixing Windows issues rather than other stuffFeb 12 14:23
schestowitzBut I realise that there's another side to this coin.Feb 12 14:23
EruaranWe offer people Linux with Windows in VirtualBoxFeb 12 14:24
oiaohm_Virtualisation some people just will not use it.Feb 12 14:24
oiaohm_Its a little bit of a IQ factor too.Feb 12 14:25
EruaranWe had a business customer who was only dependant on one Windows appFeb 12 14:25
EruaranViruses and spyware ruined her business for a weekFeb 12 14:25
Eruarancost her thousandsFeb 12 14:26
oiaohm_That makes them more willing.Feb 12 14:26
oiaohm_If they never had that they are not that willing.Feb 12 14:26
Eruaranwe offered her ubuntu with a couple of windows virtual machines and all her files always saved to an external driveFeb 12 14:26
Eruaranso even if windows goes pear shaped, she can just kill the VM and start the second oneFeb 12 14:27
Eruaranstart up her app again and continue workingFeb 12 14:27
oiaohm_Catch here lot of the KDE developers working on the Windows side would not be working on KDE if it was not on windows.Feb 12 14:27
MinceRthe problem with virtualization is that they'll still need to buy licenses and cope with the bugs.Feb 12 14:27
Eruaranit was a solution that worked for herFeb 12 14:27
Eruaranshe uses ubuntu for everything except her POS/accountingFeb 12 14:27
EruaranWindows failures cannot bring her business to a halt any moreFeb 12 14:28
schestowitzSilly IE can't render simple stuff... only browser... why can't MS do things right, like... ever? http://browsershots.org/http://boycottnovell.co...Feb 12 14:29
oiaohm_Once they are cross to Linux going back becomes impossable.Feb 12 14:29
EruaranIt also means that since Windows has been reduced to the status of being like "just another application", she isn't interested in upgrades etcFeb 12 14:29
EruaranEven though she still uses Windows, you shouldn't underestimate the difference Ubuntu has made to her lifeFeb 12 14:31
EruaranFor her its the best thing since sliced breadFeb 12 14:31
oiaohm_I guess getting her accross at first was bumpy EruaranFeb 12 14:31
Eruaranoiaohm_: no it was very smoothFeb 12 14:32
oiaohm_Using openoffice before migration?Feb 12 14:32
EruaranI think soFeb 12 14:32
oiaohm_That helps a lot.Feb 12 14:32
EruaranShe wasn't tied to MS Office for any reasonFeb 12 14:33
oiaohm_So it was basically following my normal model.Feb 12 14:33
oiaohm_Remove MS office then migration is far less painful.Feb 12 14:33
EruaranyesFeb 12 14:33
oiaohm_Of course I want to remove more so there is less problems.Feb 12 14:33
oiaohm_KDE on windows suits into that perfectly.Feb 12 14:33
Eruaranit helped that she bought a new computer at the same timeFeb 12 14:34
Eruaranwe set up the new system for herFeb 12 14:34
Eruaranorganized everything beforehandFeb 12 14:34
Eruaranso it was pretty much a clean swap to her new systemFeb 12 14:34
oiaohm_Doing the converison right all the time is a art form.Feb 12 14:35
oiaohm_I still have not got it perfect.Feb 12 14:35
Eruaranturn up on site, swap her old stuff for new and she was back up and running in minutesFeb 12 14:36
EruaranI love it when things go that smoothlyFeb 12 14:36
oiaohm_Ubuntu migration wizard is improving.Feb 12 14:36
oiaohm_That also is making it simpler.Feb 12 14:36
oiaohm_Ok I have a altered form for debain.Feb 12 14:36
EruaranShe was very greatfulFeb 12 14:37
Eruaranshe spent a fair bitFeb 12 14:37
oiaohm_And will spend more.Feb 12 14:37
Eruaranbut she said you cant put a dollar value on piece of mindFeb 12 14:37
Eruaranand now she has itFeb 12 14:37
Eruaranpeace of mindFeb 12 14:37
oiaohm_Yep reason why I run Linux.Feb 12 14:37
oiaohm_I have to clean up computers with viruses.Feb 12 14:37
oiaohm_Its so simple to bring them home on a USB stick.Feb 12 14:38
EruaranyesFeb 12 14:38
schestowitzWrongly using the "r" word again: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505...Feb 12 14:39
zer0c00lmy college guys having problems with migrating from microsoft exchange server,Its coupled with dns server(actually has mail account) and a webserver the 3 servers are in a bladeFeb 12 14:43
zer0c00lwhen i tried to convince them to move towards linux, they explained me like aboveFeb 12 14:43
zer0c00lthey want the mail msges to be saved and exported to new linux environment (exim)Feb 12 14:44
zer0c00lis it possibleFeb 12 14:44
oiaohm_Raiding Exchange is a nasty process.Feb 12 14:45
oiaohm_But possiable.Feb 12 14:45
zer0c00loiaohm_ ohFeb 12 14:46
zer0c00ldo you know how?Feb 12 14:46
oiaohm_Simplest way is pay cisco some money for postpath and use postfix.Feb 12 14:47
zer0c00lwhat is postpath? and postfix?Feb 12 14:47
oiaohm_http://www.postfix.org/  email server first made by IBM.Feb 12 14:48
oiaohm_So kinda very solid.Feb 12 14:48
oiaohm_postpath sits on top of postfix and acts exactly like a exchange server to clients.Feb 12 14:49
oiaohm_Yes it can raid the exchange server as well.Feb 12 14:50
oiaohm_postpath costs money.Feb 12 14:50
oiaohm_There are other instructions around to manually converted exchange to other email systems.Feb 12 14:50
oiaohm_The simple question is how hard to they want it zer0c00lFeb 12 14:55
oiaohm_There is everything from dead simple to a work out.Feb 12 14:55
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schestowitzMicrosoft's Propaganda Minister (Vice President) Quits Microsoft http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/mic...Feb 12 14:56
schestowitzpostpath is cisco now, isn't it?Feb 12 14:57
zer0c00loiaohm_: they really want this because they are having problems with sending mails through exchange server, also they feel their college website is not good and looking forward to outsource itFeb 12 14:57
zer0c00li told them about drupalFeb 12 14:57
zer0c00land showed them a demoFeb 12 14:57
schestowitzI think he has just leftFeb 12 14:57
schestowitzMaybe by accidentFeb 12 14:57
zer0c00lthey are very much satisfiedFeb 12 14:58
amarsh04schestowitz - new public groklaw.net article http://www.groklaw.net/article...Feb 12 14:59
zer0c00loiaohm_:https://mail.tce.edu/src/login.php what do you think about this mail setup (see powered by footer)Feb 12 15:00
Eruaran"Numerous analysts predict that the multiple alliances are an attempt to secure marketshare. However, the marketshare will fail to translate into revenue which the company requires for survival. Analysts and shareholders recognise that the company cannot continue to substantially grow OS and Business. Therefore, it is critical that Microsoft seek to capture a competitive share of cloud computing, SaaS and handheldFeb 12 15:05
Eruarandevices."Feb 12 15:05
EruaranYes, soon we will see the Zune phoneFeb 12 15:05
Eruaran;)Feb 12 15:05
EruaranMicrosoft will seek investments it can have complete control overFeb 12 15:09
EruaranWhere it can put its own people in another companies drivers seatsFeb 12 15:10
schestowitzIt wants political control tooFeb 12 15:15
schestowitzI'm doing two posts about it todayFeb 12 15:15
schestowitzIt's really sick.Feb 12 15:15
EruaranIt is possible that if Microsoft shareholders get rid of Ballmer, Microsoft will become more aggressive rather than reform at all.Feb 12 15:17
schestowitzEruaran: Microsoft has offshootsFeb 12 15:19
schestowitzRead this new post with me... you'll seeFeb 12 15:19
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/1...Feb 12 15:20
schestowitzI'm still proofreading, so tell me what you thinFeb 12 15:20
schestowitz*kFeb 12 15:20
EruarankFeb 12 15:21
schestowitzIt's the darker side of Microsoft, which is real but scarcely covered in the media.Feb 12 15:22
schestowitzAlso in the news, Ballmer is now lobbying the Federal government. I'll write about it laterFeb 12 15:23
EruaranThe plentiful links always gives people plenty of background to look at even when the story is relatively short.Feb 12 15:25
schestowitzYesFeb 12 15:25
schestowitzI can't do this without links. They'd call me namedFeb 12 15:25
schestowitz*namesFeb 12 15:25
schestowitzBut we build evidence over time, with Comes being a very hard complementFeb 12 15:25
schestowitzHard as in solidFeb 12 15:26
EruaranyesFeb 12 15:26
schestowitzI have new dirt about NovellFeb 12 15:27
schestowitzWill post it nowFeb 12 15:28
EruaranokFeb 12 15:28
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schestowitzEruaran: have a look: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0...Feb 12 16:04
EruarantyFeb 12 16:05
EruaraninterestingFeb 12 16:07
Eruaranits all rather oddFeb 12 16:07
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schestowitzHighly Confidential Antitrust Exhibit: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/12/b...Feb 12 16:09
Eruarannice one :)Feb 12 16:11
schestowitzI've just put it in Digg as well: http://digg.com/linux_unix/Bill_Ga...Feb 12 16:14
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zer0c00lhow to write a linux virus in 5 easy steps: http://www.geekzone.co.nz/foobar/6229Feb 12 16:22
zer0c00lhe says we are (linux users) not protectedFeb 12 16:22
zer0c00lwho is that guy?Feb 12 16:23
schestowitzHe's a pro-FOSS guyFeb 12 16:25
schestowitzNot a troll, maybe the post is trollish though. it doesn't replicate itself... it's just a rogue executable, that's all.Feb 12 16:25
benJImanCreating those is pretty easy though.Feb 12 16:26
schestowitzIt's like saying you can make stones kill people, so rocks are a Bad THing.Feb 12 16:26
benJImanThe only system that really makes an effort to protect against such attack vectors is vista+'s UAC.Feb 12 16:26
PetoKraushow?Feb 12 16:27
schestowitzhttp://www.sandklef.com/hesa/index.php...Feb 12 16:29
schestowitzbenJIman likes Microsoft technologies, so there's room for bias there.Feb 12 16:29
schestowitzhttp://www.prwatch.org/node/8208 Deceptive manipulation :-|Feb 12 16:30
schestowitz"The public relations firm Ketchum, which "works with the highest levels of Russia's Government and the state-owned energy monopoly Gazprom," has hired the Alston & Bird lobby firm to work on the account. The lobby firm "of former Senate Majority Leaders Bob Dole and Tom Daschle will deal with trade, energy, economic and politico-military issues at a $35K-a-month rate," at least through the end of May 2009, reports O'Dwyer's"Feb 12 16:31
schestowitzhttp://www.prwatch.org/node/8209 "These jets are private offices, where people can conduct business and have confidential discussions that could never occur on a commercial jetliner," argued the CEO of the National Business Aviation Association, a group that "represents corporate-jet owners."Feb 12 16:32
zer0c00lbenJIman: my friends said UAC is highly annoying..most of the people disabled it....UAC is a becomes crap when windows is exploited (recent IE exploit) ,smb relay attack etcFeb 12 16:33
schestowitzOSI @ FOSDEM: http://www.opensource.org/node/388Feb 12 16:33
benJImanzer0c00l: Well of course if you turn it off it doesn't protect you from anything.Feb 12 16:33
zer0c00lyeah well, but if your system service got security holes UAC wont help youFeb 12 16:34
benJImanAnd nor will linuxFeb 12 16:34
zer0c00lexample recent IE xml parsing overflow vulnerabilityFeb 12 16:35
zer0c00lhere we have selinuxFeb 12 16:35
zer0c00lit will bringup red flag dude  (if you try to open a reverse shell or bind shell)Feb 12 16:35
zer0c00l:PFeb 12 16:35
benJImanOf course your end users who find UAC complicated will have an easy time with selinux ^_^Feb 12 16:35
benJImanYou'd have to elevate permissions with an IE exploit too.Feb 12 16:36
zer0c00li dont think so...Feb 12 16:36
benJImanAssuming it's running as a limited user.Feb 12 16:36
zer0c00li checked downloading those exploit scripts from milw0rmFeb 12 16:36
benJImanWhich it is by default.Feb 12 16:36
benJImanThe default selinux/apparmor profiles shipped out of the box with distros are equally poor at actually protecting against anything normal users would run into because there's no easy way to elevate privileges so they have to be very permissive. UAC at least allows users to do the elevation.Feb 12 16:37
benJImanHave a look at http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/l...Feb 12 16:38
benJImanThe installer detection sucks of course.Feb 12 16:38
zer0c00lyou cannot trust users they will always click YESFeb 12 16:38
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schestowitzWTF? http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS244... How come eWeek never covers the many dangers and detriments of Moonlight and Mono? Feb 12 16:38
schestowitzHi, mikankun Feb 12 16:38
mikankunheyFeb 12 16:39
benJImanBecause there's the same risk just using the linux kernel.Feb 12 16:39
zer0c00lbenJIman who cares about exploits,viruses and spywares ? those malicious things are developed for some developers benefit...I dont think people will do that in linuxFeb 12 16:41
zer0c00laltleast it will be less in linuxFeb 12 16:41
*zer0c00l yawnsFeb 12 16:42
benJImanzer0c00l: While linux has less than 1% marketshare sure, it's not a big enough target. Right now it's easier to exploit than windows though.Feb 12 16:43
zer0c00lyou havent saw that hacking contest result? Even though people know about some security vulnerabilities on linux they cant make it as an exploitFeb 12 16:44
zer0c00lbut people bypassed UAC and allFeb 12 16:44
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zer0c00lthree distros: ubuntu ,vi$ta ,MAC OSFeb 12 16:45
zer0c00lapple was exploited on the first dayFeb 12 16:45
zer0c00lvista on the last day i guessFeb 12 16:45
EruaranAnd Ubuntu isn't even considered "hardcore" for security by Linux usersFeb 12 16:45
zer0c00lubuntu they cant make itFeb 12 16:45
zer0c00l:DFeb 12 16:45
EruaranAnd certainly not by BSD users ;)Feb 12 16:45
mib_6jnqg9Roy keep up the good work mate - Finding the anti-trust Microsoft articles very interesting along with the rest of the siteFeb 12 16:46
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EruaranAnd UAC does nothingFeb 12 16:46
*zer0c00l agrees with EruaranFeb 12 16:46
EruaranIts just an annoyance feature and a scamFeb 12 16:46
zer0c00lUAC SUCKSFeb 12 16:46
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zer0c00leven M$ ships their os with anti-features and spywaresFeb 12 16:47
zer0c00l:DFeb 12 16:47
EruaranI have seen Vista systems riddled with virii and spyware and all the while UAC was still working, asking us to "cancel" or "allow" as we tried to clean the malware off the systemFeb 12 16:48
EruaranUAC is a load of rubbishFeb 12 16:48
zer0c00lEruaran: M$ introduced something called ASLR in vista..thats  even got crackedFeb 12 16:49
zer0c00lits kind of randomizing the dlls base address i guessFeb 12 16:50
EruaranIts more than a bit ridiculous when a system is completely compromised already and UAC pops up to complain that Malwarebytes is trying to access the internet...Feb 12 16:50
EruaranMalwarebytes = malware removal software (it was trying to do an update)Feb 12 16:51
EruaranMicrosoft should be charged with fraudFeb 12 16:52
EruaranUAC is a con on  Windows usersFeb 12 16:52
Eruaranas is everything Microsoft makes that poses as some kind of security software, from Defender to OneCare to whateverFeb 12 16:53
zer0c00li saw some bad things about Defender in badvista.orgFeb 12 16:54
zer0c00lit can delete "unwanted apps" by defaultFeb 12 16:54
EruaranThey can't make a *resonably* secure platform and they can't even make decent security software for their own platformFeb 12 16:54
zer0c00lthis means that if M$ feels firefox is unwanted they can delete it :DFeb 12 16:55
EruaranI tried to open a folder on XP yesterday, in safe mode as administratorFeb 12 16:55
EruaranI was denied accessFeb 12 16:56
EruaranI had to use an Ubuntu live CD to find out what was in thereFeb 12 16:56
Eruaranit was a bunch of .NET crap with winforms etcFeb 12 16:56
EruaranDELETEFeb 12 16:56
schestowitzbenJIman: Linux has not market share less than 1%Feb 12 16:58
schestowitzYou're showing your typical Microsoft biasFeb 12 16:58
schestowitzYou sound more like a Big Liar nowFeb 12 16:58
EruaranAccording to market statistics I'm a Windows userFeb 12 16:59
EruaranA Windows statisticFeb 12 16:59
benJImanschestowitz: Could you link to your statistical report?Feb 12 16:59
EruaranI assure you, this computer is not running WindowsFeb 12 16:59
EruaranAnd there are millions like meFeb 12 17:00
schestowitzYou're echoing propaganda, benJIman http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/04/mi...Feb 12 17:00
schestowitzAnd by spreading the Big Lie you become part of the problemFeb 12 17:00
schestowitzMore here: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02...Feb 12 17:01
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EruaranWe are that invisible unknown that doesn't show up on market stats. We downloaded our OS and installed it on a computer that Microsoft thinks runs Windows.Feb 12 17:01
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EruaranChasing stats on this is like chasing a ghostFeb 12 17:02
benJImanYeah I suspect 0.81% is inflated.Feb 12 17:03
EruaranI'm quite happy if you believe that figureFeb 12 17:03
EruaranEven happier if Ballmer believes that figureFeb 12 17:03
MinceRit makes him happy.Feb 12 17:03
MinceRit's part of the MICROS~1 religion.Feb 12 17:04
schestowitzYesFeb 12 17:05
EruaranWhere I work, XP is still the most widely used OS, followed by GNU/Linux, then Vista, then OS X.Feb 12 17:06
schestowitzTrolls: http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/975/...Feb 12 17:07
schestowitzThey have to just spin it badly, don'they?Feb 12 17:07
schestowitzGNU/Linux is very big in developing countries.Feb 12 17:07
EruaranGartner tried to discourage us from offering GNU/Linux to our customers.Feb 12 17:08
schestowitzMicrosoft knows this very well (internal intelligence docs). Apple exists in few countries.Feb 12 17:08
schestowitzGartner tries to save its job by shilling for fundersFeb 12 17:08
schestowitzOSS doesn't give them a dimeFeb 12 17:08
EruaranWe didn't stop, we just don't advertise it. Microsoft is in the dark.Feb 12 17:08
schestowitzThey are funded by Ellison, Gates, others. Their clients include IBM, MS, Oracle, etc.Feb 12 17:08
MinceRwhere i work, ubuntu is the most widely used os, followed by windows and os x (or perhaps os x comes in second place0Feb 12 17:09
MinceRs/0/)/Feb 12 17:09
schestowitzA Farewell to Palm(O)s: Company stakes future on webOS < http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2009/02/a-farew... >Feb 12 17:09
schestowitzI thought they had already canned Palm OS developmentFeb 12 17:09
EruaranWe are quite happy if we have a growing GNU/Linux userbase that Microsoft is completely in the dark about.Feb 12 17:09
schestowitztrmanco says the local library started moving to Ubuntu or somethingFeb 12 17:09
schestowitzThese things are never announcedFeb 12 17:10
EruaranEventually, one day they wont be in the dark any more.Feb 12 17:10
MinceRi don't think they're really in the dark about it, at least not the managementFeb 12 17:10
EruaranAnd that's when they will pressure and threaten us.Feb 12 17:10
MinceRthe flock, of course, believes every single word ballmer speaks.Feb 12 17:10
EruaranAnd by then it will be too late for them.Feb 12 17:10
schestowitzI hope Microsoft 'cracks down' on its sellers (so-called pirates) real hard..... http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/965...Feb 12 17:10
schestowitzIf it doesn't, then it'll continue to pretend to make high profit and stash the money in parts of the Gates Movement, e.g.Gates Fundry, IVFeb 12 17:11
schestowitzThey move with the times:  Advertising-paid music downloads ready < http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/962/105... >Feb 12 17:12
Eruarannite allFeb 12 17:17
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schestowitz"Microsoft is like an old dog that even when beaten won't stop peeing on the rug. Microsoft doesn't learn about some things. Windows and Software Assurance is one of them. " http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/window...Feb 12 17:47
schestowitz"Maybe then, there really are compatibility problems. But if Windows 7 is as compatible as Microsoft repeatedly claims, why should there be any concern migrating from XP?" < http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/vista/perilous... > Feb 12 17:48
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schestowitzThis one's a trollish piece:http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/Its-OK-t...Feb 12 18:26
schestowitzbblFeb 12 18:32
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balzachilariousFeb 12 19:03
balzacMicrosoft is like an old dog that even when beaten won't stop peeing on the rug. Microsoft doesn't learn about some  things.Feb 12 19:03
balzacThat's hilarious and poigniant. I wonder if M$ headquarters smell like piss.Feb 12 19:04
trmancobalzac, it does smell like piss at MS HQ -> http://i43.tinypic.com/a28xi0.jpgFeb 12 19:28
balzacahahahaFeb 12 19:33
MinceR:)Feb 12 19:34
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joseschestowitz, when you get back, take a look at http://www.linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/20...Feb 12 20:17
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mib_yw04mghiFeb 12 20:18
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toroshiFeb 12 21:20
MinceRoh haiFeb 12 21:23
schestowitzBoss Monster < http://www.ubersoft.net/comic/hd/... >Feb 12 21:25
schestowitztrmanco: LOLFeb 12 21:27
MinceR:)Feb 12 21:27
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schestowitzElevator music files for Chapter 11 < http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/0... >Feb 12 21:53
schestowitzPioneer unplugs tellies and 10,000 workers < http://www.theregister.co.uk/... >Feb 12 21:54
schestowitzFOSS attacker too: NetApp restructures after $75m loss < http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009... >Feb 12 21:54
schestowitz"The net loss is the reason for the five per cent head count cuts revealed on Monday. "Feb 12 21:55
schestowitzBlankenhorn peddling Windows?? No way! ZeeDeenet. http://blogs.zdnet.com/open-source/?p=3478Feb 12 21:56
trmancohttp://diario.iol.pt/tecnologia/parlamen...Feb 12 22:20
schestowitz Business with the MafiaFeb 12 22:21
schestowitz" The Assembly of the Republic will reduce costs in software licenses with the new system, estimating a savings of 62,700 euros, according to a report presented this Wednesday in the committee of ethics, the Lusa news." http://translate.google.com/translate?so...Feb 12 22:21
schestowitz" The document indicates the employment of less than 40 licenses of Microsoft, with an estimated savings of about 33 thousand million, and the hiring of at least 25 licenses of other brands, which represents less than about 29 thousand euros per year." How much will it cost each time the botnet will go down -- or worse -- out of control?Feb 12 22:22
schestowitz" The Linux [an example of free software] does not provide solutions that address all the needs "of service, he said. €«A utilização de software livre é também ela livre€», defendeu. The use of free software is free too, defended."Feb 12 22:22
schestowitzWho said this?Feb 12 22:22
schestowitzWhat's this system for?Feb 12 22:22
trmancoschestowitz, let me investigateFeb 12 22:23
schestowitzThey could be perfuming bad choices to defend collusionFeb 12 22:23
schestowitz"I drank milk because water isn't yummy and the milkman is my cousin"Feb 12 22:23
trmancoschestowitz, I'm not sure, but I think it was José LelloFeb 12 22:25
trmancoI'm a little sleepy and tired and might of misread the articleFeb 12 22:26
schestowitzhttp://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/expert/infopr...Feb 12 22:35
schestowitzLegalised corruptionFeb 12 22:35
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schestowitz"Internet users in Ireland: boycott EIRCOM." http://www.stallman.org/archives/2008-nov-feb....Feb 12 22:43
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schestowitzSlavery: http://www.boingboing.net/2009/02/09/gh...Feb 12 22:44
schestowitzGlobal Warming Threatens Antarctic Sea Life < http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases... >Feb 12 22:44
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schestowitzHmmmmmm..Feb 12 22:48
schestowitzSome people don't know what B&M Foundation is about....Feb 12 22:48
schestowitzSee second comment...... http://digg.com/linux_unix/Bill_Gates_I...Feb 12 22:49
schestowitzCensorship in a country that the US claims to have brought democracy to: Bush shoe-thrower sculpture given the boot < http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=736248 >Feb 12 22:50
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MinceRgnFeb 12 23:01
schestowitzNeat. http://www.ojuba.org/wiki/lib/exe/fetc...Feb 12 23:02
schestowitzNever heard of this distro before..... http://www.ojuba.org/wiki/doku.php/linux...Feb 12 23:02
schestowitzCool! ELive gets Compiz-like effects: http://www.elivecd.org/Main/News/elive-devel...Feb 12 23:04
schestowitzAsus Plans to Reduce Variety of Eee PC Netbooks < http://www.pcworld.com/article/159423/asus_plans_to_... <Feb 12 23:08
schestowitzSamsung Delays Google Android Phone < http://www.pcworld.com/article/1594... > ... Samsung =  layoffs, many frauds, prison for CEOFeb 12 23:10
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schestowitzBray: http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/20... "Well, it’s obvious: Three decades into the life of email, we still haven’t figured out the best way to use it."Feb 12 23:14
balzacI could have told the Asus guys not to make so many modelsFeb 12 23:14
schestowitzThe concern is that they might cut the low-end models.Feb 12 23:15
schestowitzBut they have a cheap one running Linux coming, IIRCFeb 12 23:15
balzacThey really ought not to do anything that dumbFeb 12 23:15
balzacWhy so many models? Seems like their company is run by a crazy guy who happens to be right once in a while.Feb 12 23:16
balzacI have the eee 901Feb 12 23:16
schestowitzJust posted: http://www.advogato.org/article/998.htmlFeb 12 23:16
balzacI don't want a big eeeFeb 12 23:17
oiaohmThe open source presure on MS has started.Feb 12 23:21
schestowitz"The impact produced a cloud of debris, which will be tracked into the future. Since the Soviets launched Sputnik in 1957, it is estimated about 6,000 satellites have been put in orbit. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci...Feb 12 23:21
balzacMicrsoft tears - crisp, sweet and satisfyingFeb 12 23:21
oiaohmQuestion is how long before major non repairable breakage startes.Feb 12 23:21
schestowitzoiaohm: not really. It started many years ago. Halloween and all...?Feb 12 23:22
balzacthere's plenty more to comeFeb 12 23:22
schestowitzThey have tools like de Icaza to help them against FOSS.Feb 12 23:22
oiaohmLinux really has not put presure heavly on MS core markets.Feb 12 23:22
oiaohmOnly recently started.Feb 12 23:22
schestowitzDebris leads to a chain reaction maybe.Feb 12 23:22
schestowitz2 satellites become 2000 small ones :-)Feb 12 23:23
schestowitzWhich it turn collide with more, making many more thousands.Feb 12 23:23
schestowitzThen you have Saturn-like rings of debris :-)Feb 12 23:23
balzacwell, it was only recently that GNU/Linux decisively finished off proprietary UnixFeb 12 23:23
schestowitzoiaohm: what core market? Desktop?Feb 12 23:23
balzacthe NYSE/Redhat deal was the clincherFeb 12 23:23
oiaohmDesktop and desktop support server both highly intergrated  MS core market.  schestowitzFeb 12 23:24
schestowitzWindows on desktops is cheap because of GNU/Linux.. and I could go on forever on how it makes Microsoft brokeFeb 12 23:24
balzacRoy, if that first collision creates a chain-reaction, the global satellite system could suffer.Feb 12 23:24
schestowitzLinux is the only reason MS doesn't charge for WIndows (anything!) in the majority of the worldFeb 12 23:24
schestowitzAlternative office suites likewiseFeb 12 23:24
balzacluckily, lots of these sats have different weights, orbital speeds, and distances from earthFeb 12 23:24
schestowitzWhich is why they need to lackeys from Novell to harm OOo and Sun (paid devs)Feb 12 23:25
oiaohmHarm OOo is really attacking wrong target.Feb 12 23:25
balzacso one cloud of debris won't destroy our satellite networksFeb 12 23:25
schestowitzbalzac: they can change altitude.. maybe.Feb 12 23:25
oiaohmThen one they should worry about is KofficeFeb 12 23:25
schestowitzNovell: the debris of FOSSFeb 12 23:26
oiaohmProblem with hit of sats its a cloud some can go up and some can go down in in Altertude so no the distances don't mean they are safe.Feb 12 23:26
schestowitzWTF?? "Video games should have a "red button" parents can press to disable inappropriate games, says a report." < http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/tech... >. It's like cameras that make noise because of girls' skirts.Feb 12 23:27
schestowitzoiaohm: yes, I know.. that's why I added maybeFeb 12 23:27
oiaohmNo maybeFeb 12 23:28
oiaohmSome will change AltertudeFeb 12 23:28
balzacyeah, i don't have any use for personal electronics which is geared towards doing the work of big brotherFeb 12 23:28
oiaohmYou hope straight into earth.Feb 12 23:28
schestowitzChina has already spread space junk that it put in orbis. We're DOOMED!! :-)Feb 12 23:28
oiaohmMost fun way to change Sats path is send it out around the moon.Feb 12 23:29
oiaohmLucky the moon was not around when the hit happened.Feb 12 23:29
balzacmaybe that old russian satellite was specifically maneuvered into the orbital path of the other, and Vladimir Putin has reared his Russian KGB head to tell the company to pay or else they'll knock down another!Feb 12 23:29
oiaohmNo old russian was dead sat flying.Feb 12 23:29
schestowitzI got mail about Putin todayFeb 12 23:30
oiaohmNo boosters left so no way to change path.Feb 12 23:30
schestowitzhttp://www.channelregister.co.uk/2009/01/2...Feb 12 23:30
oiaohmOnly the one with fuel can maneuver.Feb 12 23:30
schestowitzUS mentality = we save world, let us help you, will accept chque, gas, or oilFeb 12 23:30
oiaohmI guess someone F there sat maths class.Feb 12 23:31
oiaohmIts fun maths you have to allow for the junk moving and make a path threw it long time in advance.Feb 12 23:31
schestowitzIn Soviet Siberia, satellite hits satelliteskiFeb 12 23:31
balzacI was pretty amused by Putin's diss of Michael DellFeb 12 23:31
oiaohmYou have to alter path about 5 hours in advance to be able to miss.Feb 12 23:32
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balzacMr. Dell is an insufferably-arrogant guyFeb 12 23:32
schestowitzGates' buddyFeb 12 23:32
schestowitzDid you see yesterday's post?Feb 12 23:32
oiaohmBasically sats don't have big boosters.Feb 12 23:32
balzacHe talked so much trash about Apple, but Steve Jobs mopped the floor with him.Feb 12 23:32
schestowitzGates calls him just "mIchaelFeb 12 23:32
schestowitzThe Collusion family is one happy family.Feb 12 23:32
schestowitz"We'll run the computer world, thank you very mucdh"Feb 12 23:32
schestowitzIt's like those secret Harard clubs and society where you need to be admitted as a trusted 'cult' member to stand a chance in the election/PC industry/arms contract/etc.Feb 12 23:33
schestowitz*Harvard; *SocietiesFeb 12 23:33
balzacyeah, they probably make members bob for apples in a toilet to gain entryFeb 12 23:34
balzacRoy, it's nice to be in a British Ivy League from which to piss on Harvard grads, I bet.Feb 12 23:34
schestowitzObama was there tooFeb 12 23:35
balzacyeah, there are a few cool people to come out of HarvardFeb 12 23:35
schestowitzSame circulation... manufacturing faces to be candidates, i.e. fronts to Big PowersFeb 12 23:35
balzacbut last time I checked, the president of Harvard was a moron.Feb 12 23:35
balzacGeorge Douche came from HarvardFeb 12 23:36
balzacIt crawled out from the bowels of Harvard...Feb 12 23:37
schestowitzI thought you said Google DoucheFeb 12 23:37
schestowitz(Stanford)Feb 12 23:37
balzacA beast slouches toward bethlehemFeb 12 23:37
schestowitzSchmidt, Brin, PageFeb 12 23:37
schestowitz*LOL*Feb 12 23:37
schestowitzWhich beast?Feb 12 23:37
schestowitzhttp://www.mixx.com/photos/3778124/microsoft_sc...Feb 12 23:38
balzacwell, based on the pompadors, the Google guys have a certain douche-factor to themFeb 12 23:38
schestowitzWhich one/s?Feb 12 23:38
balzachttp://redesign.files.wordpress.co...Feb 12 23:38
balzacwell, one of them and not the other so muchFeb 12 23:39
balzacthe recent diaper-party was a douchey and frat-tasticFeb 12 23:40
balzacgoogle diaper partyFeb 12 23:40
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schestowitz:-( I don't think we'll make a front page tomorrow (too slow) http://digg.com/linux_unix/Bill_Gates...Feb 12 23:42
balzacI have a few complaints about Google - their opposition to the AGPL, their embrace of "open source" branding, and their paltry support for GNU.Feb 12 23:42
balzacthey're not so special as they thinkFeb 12 23:42
schestowitzOh yeah... I totally forget about their AGPL dissFeb 12 23:42
schestowitzThey never resolved itFeb 12 23:42
schestowitzThe discussion was just taken off the table.Feb 12 23:42
balzacRoy, Digg may have reached the saturation point for this week.Feb 12 23:42
balzacit could be an issue of timingFeb 12 23:42
schestowitzbalzac: but they INNOVATED.... count number of links to page to assign ranks to it...... you know :-)... kind of like Citeseer and indexes that existed for hundreds of yearsFeb 12 23:43
balzacGoogle did one major thing right - cornered the market-share on search engines.Feb 12 23:44
balzacEverything else has been based on that one early victoryFeb 12 23:44
schestowitzWHOOPS! http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/97... ( US nuclear weapons lab loses 67 computers)Feb 12 23:45
balzacthey're smart, but not so much smarter than everyone else as their disproportionate success might suggest.Feb 12 23:45
schestowitzI hope the thieves don't install SUSE on these...  PCLOs is so much better!Feb 12 23:45
schestowitzSuccess != moneyFeb 12 23:45
schestowitzThat's an issue that's globalFeb 12 23:45
balzactrueFeb 12 23:45
schestowitzPeople treat Gates as though he understand the economy bestFeb 12 23:45
schestowitzNot economists and professorsFeb 12 23:46
balzacyeah, it's trueFeb 12 23:46
balzacthat's the culture of ass-kissery of the wealthyFeb 12 23:46
schestowitzBut that who has more money must therefore be really, really smartFeb 12 23:46
balzacwealth = wisdomFeb 12 23:46
schestowitzIn the USSA[sic], usually the most brutal and reckless people are those who 'succeed'Feb 12 23:46
balzacit's very funnyFeb 12 23:46
schestowitzBecause there is no regulationFeb 12 23:46
schestowitzThey get the throne rather than time in rpsionFeb 12 23:46
schestowitz*prison (got mangled there)Feb 12 23:47
balzacwell, I keep saying the best way to beat them is to crush them in businessFeb 12 23:47
schestowitz"Hey, how about professor Z?"Feb 12 23:47
balzacI'm glad some people are hobbling them with enforcement of law and public persuasionFeb 12 23:47
schestowitzre: "naaa... he lives in downtown Georgia... he can't be smart"Feb 12 23:47
oiaohmCisco has the best way to win.Feb 12 23:47
oiaohmdon't crush them use them.Feb 12 23:48
balzacI just like the word crush. It sounds more like kruschev and less like machiavelliFeb 12 23:48
schestowitzSpeaking of which: Feb 12 23:48
balzacve vill bury you!Feb 12 23:48
schestowitzhttp://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news...Feb 12 23:48
*balzac slams shoe on the tableFeb 12 23:49
schestowitzProfitable business= smartFeb 12 23:49
schestowitzSo repeat after me: "Web 2.0, Web 2.0..."Feb 12 23:49
oiaohmWhat is the down side of killing of your competition.Feb 12 23:49
oiaohmCisco woke up to it early on.Feb 12 23:49
schestowitzFolksonomy... blogosphere.. tagging...Feb 12 23:49
balzacblechFeb 12 23:50
balzacthose words can cause nauseaFeb 12 23:50
oiaohmIts so simple if you don't have any competition you have to find all the R&D costs yourself.Feb 12 23:50
balzacoiaohm: good pointFeb 12 23:50
balzacbetter to nurture and control them like cowsFeb 12 23:50
oiaohmIts far better to setup to be a distributitor of your competions products.Feb 12 23:50
oiaohmThat way you make profit from your own and theres.Feb 12 23:51
balzacmake a sybiotic relationship in which they are kept as livestockFeb 12 23:51
oiaohmYep balzac exactly what cisco systems does.Feb 12 23:51
balzacthat sounds sinisterFeb 12 23:51
oiaohmCisco picks the best products from them and then stick there label on it.Feb 12 23:52
balzacjust like a farmer, harvestingFeb 12 23:52
oiaohmCustomers trust the Cisco label pay more for it so Cisco profits even that they are selling other peoples devices.Feb 12 23:52
oiaohmYep its a really good model.Feb 12 23:52
oiaohmOpen source also works the same kind of way.Feb 12 23:52
balzacthose who have amassed capital can benefit from everyone else without doing any workFeb 12 23:53
balzacjust sit back and wait for opportunities and offers to land on youFeb 12 23:53
oiaohmCisco has more money that microsoft.Feb 12 23:53
balzacmoney begets moneyFeb 12 23:53
schestowitzMicrosoft might already be in debtFeb 12 23:54
oiaohmIf the downturn on MS lasts Cisco might be able to buy Microsoft.Feb 12 23:54
schestowitzHow deep nobody knowsFeb 12 23:54
schestowitzIt's complicated because they have external bank accounts like "gates foundation" and some personals... also shareholders, private hands.Feb 12 23:54
schestowitzoiaohm: you don't make sense :-)Feb 12 23:55
schestowitz"<oiaohm> Cisco picks the best products from them and then stick there label on it."Feb 12 23:55
schestowitzContradictsFeb 12 23:55
balzacgood pointFeb 12 23:55
schestowitz"If the downturn on MS lasts Cisco might be able to buy Microsoft."Feb 12 23:55
schestowitzThey bought Jabber thoughFeb 12 23:55
oiaohmThat was more aquiring a pest.Feb 12 23:56
oiaohmAnd a useful domain name.Feb 12 23:56
schestowitzWhen you put the "V" word (Vista) on Cisco, that's the end of Cisco. People will want to strangle Cisco every time the Zunisco dies for a day (leap year) and the XBoxisco burns down a house with a babyFeb 12 23:57
oiaohmCisco sells network hardware.Feb 12 23:57
schestowitzMicrosoft sells marketingFeb 12 23:57
balzacalright, i'm afk for a whileFeb 12 23:57
oiaohmCisco will keep income because network hardware wears out and has to be replaced.Feb 12 23:57
oiaohmMS problem software does not wear out.Feb 12 23:57
schestowitz"Usually Microsoft doesn't develop products, we buy products. It's not a bad product, but bits and pieces are missing." --Arno Edelmann, Microsoft's European business security product managerFeb 12 23:58

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