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| DaemonFC | or they'll pirate it or use Linux | Mar 31 12:59 |
|---|---|---|
| schestowitz | Won't let them survice | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Win+office are the only profitable products for MS | Mar 31 12:59 |
| DaemonFC | university students are living on a shoestring | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Including server | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Dumping there is suicide if done for much longer | Mar 31 12:59 |
| DaemonFC | and $400 for Windows+Office is out of the question | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Wait until you see Microsoft's results at the end of April | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Quarterly results | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Will be ugly, unless they lowered expectations already | Mar 31 12:59 |
| oiaohm | they are already dropping departments. | Mar 31 12:59 |
| schestowitz | Yes | Mar 31 13:00 |
| schestowitz | Exactly | Mar 31 13:00 |
| oiaohm | How long before they have no execess departments to drop. | Mar 31 13:00 |
| qdev | i don't get it, are m$'s funds rising or falling? | Mar 31 13:00 |
| schestowitz | The core (bread and buter) is win+MSO | Mar 31 13:00 |
| oiaohm | MS funds are falling fast. | Mar 31 13:00 |
| schestowitz | But Linux is eating their lunch | Mar 31 13:00 |
| schestowitz | With Oracle, IBM, Google.. | Mar 31 13:00 |
| qdev | for how long time already, oiaohm? | Mar 31 13:00 |
| DaemonFC | most of their stock price damage isn't cause of things that really are happening | Mar 31 13:00 |
| DaemonFC | it's because of the asinine stock market | Mar 31 13:00 |
| schestowitz | And they still lose billions online because they MUST | Mar 31 13:00 |
| DaemonFC | and our insane speculative stock pricing | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | Not moving MSO to Web-based is out of the question | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | They'll try to use OOXML to pressure people in that direction | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | Now they just mock Google Apps | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | because the MS solution is immature | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | They still work on it | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | BUT | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | They also don't know how to monetise it | Mar 31 13:01 |
| DaemonFC | they also tried to clone Myspace and failed | Mar 31 13:01 |
| schestowitz | Which is a bigger problem | Mar 31 13:01 |
| DaemonFC | then they tried to clone Gmail and failed | Mar 31 13:01 |
| DaemonFC | and Google Search | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | And AdCentre Analytics is dead | Mar 31 13:02 |
| DaemonFC | and failed | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft Ad business is dying too | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | That's the whole substance of an online business | Mar 31 13:02 |
| oiaohm | MS is basically death spirling. | Mar 31 13:02 |
| qdev | nice to hear | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | They lose to Google. | Mar 31 13:02 |
| DaemonFC | they even had a "Use our search and get free points towards free stuff" | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | They can't use AdSense at Microsoft | Mar 31 13:02 |
| oiaohm | The down turn causes companies to grow a brain to live. | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | That would be hilarious.. | Mar 31 13:02 |
| DaemonFC | and it didn't help them | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft relying on Google/Linux for ad revenue | Mar 31 13:02 |
| qdev | i dream m$ lose influence on those who sell computers | Mar 31 13:02 |
| qdev | and especially at education systems of plenty of countries | Mar 31 13:02 |
| oiaohm | That is still a while off qdev | Mar 31 13:02 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: that was "search bribery" | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Failed too | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | The guy who conceived it quit Microsoft | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Last month, IIRC | Mar 31 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Dumping is holding education with MS. | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Maybe 2 months ago | Mar 31 13:03 |
| oiaohm | Always has. | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | MSN has a big exodus | Mar 31 13:03 |
| DaemonFC | Hmmm, he should have committed seppuku | Mar 31 13:03 |
| DaemonFC | lol | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: OEMs too | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | But not for long | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Dell broke loose | Mar 31 13:03 |
| schestowitz | Selling 1 in 3 sub-notebooks with Ubuntu now | Mar 31 13:04 |
| oiaohm | The software bubble is bursting. | Mar 31 13:04 |
| oiaohm | MS is the one that is going to take the largest hit. | Mar 31 13:04 |
| oiaohm | Think about it for how many years has the price of windows just gone up not down. | Mar 31 13:05 |
| qdev | it's their major flaw | Mar 31 13:06 |
| qdev | they didn't make it cheaper for those who just won't spend that money to buy some yet another shitty windows | Mar 31 13:07 |
| schestowitz | They did actually | Mar 31 13:07 |
| schestowitz | Dynamic pricing | Mar 31 13:07 |
| oiaohm | They have got themselves dependant on the revenue stream. | Mar 31 13:07 |
| schestowitz | Partly by permitting counterfeiting in most of the world | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Binary pricing | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Free or expensive | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Free in the Philippines, pricey in the UK and Holland | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | Their prices are not consistent | Mar 31 13:08 |
| qdev | not in russia actually, here windows costs the same as in usa | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | They charge as much as possible, which monopoly abuse permits | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | They got sued for ir, AFAIK | Mar 31 13:08 |
| qdev | but salaries are several times less | Mar 31 13:08 |
| schestowitz | qdev: yes, but they don't crack down much | Mar 31 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Remember the teacher incident? | Mar 31 13:09 |
| qdev | of course, i read what she wrote | Mar 31 13:09 |
| schestowitz | When Gurbachov stepped in? | Mar 31 13:09 |
| schestowitz | It was a guy.. | Mar 31 13:09 |
| schestowitz | In the Perm region | Mar 31 13:09 |
| qdev | it was a guy to kill soviet union actually | Mar 31 13:09 |
| schestowitz | Russia is making its own Red Hat-like (Fedora IIRC) distro now | Mar 31 13:09 |
| qdev | i know, russian fedora | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | They also have ALT Linux, which is derived from Mandriva like PCLOS | Mar 31 13:10 |
| qdev | yup | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | They put it on servers | Mar 31 13:10 |
| qdev | not too much | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Well, gradually. | Mar 31 13:10 |
| DaemonFC | I just use Ubuntu | Mar 31 13:10 |
| qdev | almost nobody here check what kind of software you use | Mar 31 13:10 |
| DaemonFC | I hate RPM distros | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | The Russian governmenrt had Mandriva servers in places | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Ubuntu doesn't seem big in Russia | Mar 31 13:10 |
| DaemonFC | they may put together a nice distro, but there really are no good RPM front ends | Mar 31 13:10 |
| schestowitz | Mandriva and Debian are big in Brazil | Mar 31 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Cuba ->> Sabayon/Gentoo | Mar 31 13:11 |
| qdev | in france most likely too | Mar 31 13:11 |
| schestowitz | France -> Ubuntu | Mar 31 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Weird.. | Mar 31 13:11 |
| schestowitz | Some government depts use Mandriva | Mar 31 13:11 |
| DaemonFC | I compile my own kernels, Debian has make-kpkg which lets me build kernels *and* be a lazy bastard | Mar 31 13:11 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu inherits this | Mar 31 13:11 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Mar 31 13:11 |
| qdev | nice | Mar 31 13:12 |
| qdev | i wouldn't myself build a kernel for mandriva | Mar 31 13:12 |
| qdev | even though i know how to build kernels | Mar 31 13:12 |
| DaemonFC | so right now I am using yesterday's snapshot of the Linus Torvalds kernel tree | Mar 31 13:12 |
| DaemonFC | hehe | Mar 31 13:12 |
| qdev | yeah, in russia it's almost everywhere windows | Mar 31 13:13 |
| qdev | especially kids that play pirated games on pirated windows | Mar 31 13:13 |
| qdev | and watch pirated films :)) | Mar 31 13:13 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm | Mar 31 13:13 |
| DaemonFC | I only do two of those | Mar 31 13:13 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Mar 31 13:14 |
| qdev | and plenty of torrenting | Mar 31 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | It's not that I can't steal Windows | Mar 31 13:14 |
| qdev | so russia is not that kind of place where linux blooms | Mar 31 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | it's that it's not worth the blank DVD | Mar 31 13:14 |
| DaemonFC | :)\ | Mar 31 13:14 |
| qdev | with linux you almost have no job here | Mar 31 13:15 |
| DaemonFC | meh, Microsoft would rather they all steal it than use Linux | Mar 31 13:15 |
| DaemonFC | then if they ever get to a point where they do buy something | Mar 31 13:15 |
| qdev | that's why i use windows at home and linux at work :)) | Mar 31 13:15 |
| DaemonFC | they know Windows | Mar 31 13:15 |
| DaemonFC | and depend on it | Mar 31 13:15 |
| oiaohm | With Linux I have a job recovering MS fuckups. | Mar 31 13:15 |
| oiaohm | Linux ntfs driver reads majorally damaged ntfs partitions that windows ntfs driver does not. | Mar 31 13:16 |
| qdev | lol | Mar 31 13:16 |
| DaemonFC | oh thats funny | Mar 31 13:16 |
| oiaohm | And true | Mar 31 13:16 |
| DaemonFC | they should offer to license NTFS-3g to Microsoft | Mar 31 13:16 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Mar 31 13:16 |
| oiaohm | NTFS-3g is the one to write. | Mar 31 13:17 |
| oiaohm | I mean the standard read only ntfs driver in the kernel itself out does MS. | Mar 31 13:17 |
| DaemonFC | my kernels only support XFS | Mar 31 13:17 |
| qdev | m$ should buy the right just to be able to say that with linux you can fix their fuckups D | Mar 31 13:17 |
| qdev | XD | Mar 31 13:17 |
| oiaohm | NTFS-3g kicks it tail around the park. | Mar 31 13:17 |
| DaemonFC | I don't have any Ext2/3/4, Reiser, or JFS partitions | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | why mess around building modules? :P | Mar 31 13:18 |
| qdev | which one do you use? | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | I use XFS | Mar 31 13:18 |
| oiaohm | I will be going up to ext4 when it stablises. | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | and I build the driver into the kernel | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | not as a module | Mar 31 13:18 |
| qdev | of course | Mar 31 13:18 |
| qdev | there's no need to be using it as module then | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | Ubuntu builds it as a module | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | and builds Ext2/3/4 into the kernel | Mar 31 13:18 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Mar 31 13:18 |
| oiaohm | Any plans to change over to btrfs in future DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:19 |
| DaemonFC | I tried BtrFS | Mar 31 13:19 |
| DaemonFC | not real impressed at this point | Mar 31 13:19 |
| DaemonFC | it's really really slow | Mar 31 13:19 |
| oiaohm | Still a lot of development work to do. | Mar 31 13:19 |
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| oiaohm | nilfs I guess tried as well DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:19 |
| DaemonFC | there we go | Mar 31 13:20 |
| qdev | gonna check xfs when mandriva 2009.1 is released | Mar 31 13:20 |
| DaemonFC | Mandriva can do everything on XFS | Mar 31 13:20 |
| DaemonFC | some distros set grub to where it can't boot XFS | Mar 31 13:21 |
| qdev | i just have it already installed with ext3 here | Mar 31 13:21 |
| DaemonFC | (Fedora) | Mar 31 13:21 |
| oiaohm | nilfs is a check point/snapshotting filesystem. | Mar 31 13:21 |
| oiaohm | I find it useful for configuration files. | Mar 31 13:21 |
| qdev | oops, xfs doesn't tolerate hangs | Mar 31 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | XFS is fast and has insanely huge limits that will never be reached by any hard drive as far as volume size | Mar 31 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | (18 million TB) | Mar 31 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | XFS is fine | Mar 31 13:22 |
| DaemonFC | there's a lot of FUD flying around though | Mar 31 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Never say Never. | Mar 31 13:23 |
| oiaohm | 18 million TB is theory possiable. | Mar 31 13:23 |
| DaemonFC | Ext4's data loss problems are really stupidity on the part of GNOME and KDE | Mar 31 13:23 |
| oiaohm | Ext4 data loss problem has a mirror in XFS | Mar 31 13:23 |
| DaemonFC | it's running into the same shitty applications that cause XFS problems | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | such as Firefox | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Mar 31 13:24 |
| oiaohm | Ext4 will have patches in 2.6.30 that make it resistant to it. | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | and like how GNOME and KDE store settings in a shitload of tiny files | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | that are constantly being updated | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | no | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | they are crippling Ext4 | Mar 31 13:24 |
| DaemonFC | to cope with bad apps | Mar 31 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | like Firefox | Mar 31 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Have you benched it. | Mar 31 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Mar 31 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Supprising its slightly faster. | Mar 31 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | slightly? | Mar 31 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | it shouldn't be any surprise that it's faster over a fs that is pure crap | Mar 31 13:25 |
| DaemonFC | (Ext3) | Mar 31 13:25 |
| oiaohm | Ext 4 patches to prevent the glitch caused by bad software is slightly faster than the mode without. | Mar 31 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | Ext4 is what Ext3 should have been in 2001 | Mar 31 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | I prefer to try to avoid bad software | Mar 31 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | such as Firefox | Mar 31 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | Firefox is as bad as they come | Mar 31 13:26 |
| DaemonFC | it uses more RAM than the operating system after a couple hours browsing | Mar 31 13:27 |
| oiaohm | Crome is doing a good job of putting pressure on it. | Mar 31 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | cause the devs are isiots and sub standard programmers | Mar 31 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | using C++ and XUL | Mar 31 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | *idiots | Mar 31 13:27 |
| qdev | what's xul | Mar 31 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | XML-based User interface Language | Mar 31 13:27 |
| DaemonFC | the browser renders the interface | Mar 31 13:28 |
| qdev | just read it in wiki | Mar 31 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | isntead of using OS-native UI widgets | Mar 31 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | it's incredibly slow/buggy/resource wasteful | Mar 31 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | but makes it somewhat easier to port | Mar 31 13:28 |
| qdev | isn't xml resource wasteful by nature | Mar 31 13:28 |
| DaemonFC | well, Gecko ain't all that great | Mar 31 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | but... | Mar 31 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | the Firefox browser makes it worse | Mar 31 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | you can switch to Epiphany and get a browser that's 100 times better, even using Gecko | Mar 31 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Mar 31 13:29 |
| DaemonFC | I can't wait til they switch to Webkit by default | Mar 31 13:29 |
| qdev | 've only got ff, o and konq here in windows | Mar 31 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | I don't like Mozilla, I don't like Firefox | Mar 31 13:30 |
| DaemonFC | unfortunately Gecko is really the only credible rendering engine on Linux | Mar 31 13:31 |
| qdev | it's rather flexible and useful | Mar 31 13:31 |
| DaemonFC | I just use Epiphany | Mar 31 13:31 |
| ToreadorVampire | Mmm, MinceR likes Opera - although he has constant troubles with Google apps (which for some reason when I check in an-identical-Opera-build-on-an-identical-operating-system work just fine for me) | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | i don't like any browsers | Mar 31 13:34 |
| ToreadorVampire | But my main browser of choice is FF | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | but i use opera and ff | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | mostly ff | Mar 31 13:34 |
| ToreadorVampire | Oh, I thought it was the other way around ... | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | though i've moved several of my stuff to browser-independent apps | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | oops | Mar 31 13:34 |
| MinceR | mostly opera, i mean | Mar 31 13:35 |
| MinceR | :) | Mar 31 13:35 |
| ToreadorVampire | Right | Mar 31 13:35 |
| MinceR | i guess i'll be done once i set up privoxy | Mar 31 13:35 |
| ToreadorVampire | For me - FF plugins are too valuable to give up | Mar 31 13:35 |
| MinceR | and then i can switch browsers in a relatively painless way | Mar 31 13:35 |
| MinceR | my searches are in Web Command Line, my bookmarks are in SiteBar | Mar 31 13:35 |
| MinceR | Privoxy will take care of referer blocking and ad blocking | Mar 31 13:36 |
| MinceR | the rest is up to the browsers and their addons. | Mar 31 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | Opera is proprietary, their developers are jerks, it can't do simple tasks relating to Linux by default | Mar 31 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | (opening folders for example) | Mar 31 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | and it's written in QT | Mar 31 13:36 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | ff lacks several features too, though it got better | Mar 31 13:37 |
| DaemonFC | if I wanted black box software | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | i'm planning to try switching to ff3 once i upgrade to intrepid | Mar 31 13:37 |
| DaemonFC | I'd go buy Vista | Mar 31 13:37 |
| DaemonFC | and have a whole system full of it | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | and i'll see if the addons i need will instabilize it or not | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | or slow it down | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | and if i can fix the 5-click way through certificate warnings | Mar 31 13:37 |
| MinceR | and there are no problems with Qt, afak | Mar 31 13:38 |
| MinceR | s/fak/faik/ | Mar 31 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | I never use proprietary software when I can avoid it | Mar 31 13:38 |
| MinceR | in fact, Qt seems to be less buggy than GTK+ | Mar 31 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | heh | Mar 31 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | sure | Mar 31 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4 proved that ;) | Mar 31 13:38 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4 brought the stability of Windows 98 to Linux | Mar 31 13:38 |
| MinceR | quit making stuff up already | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4 freezes and crashes a lot | Mar 31 13:39 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 is a major shake up. | Mar 31 13:39 |
| MinceR | which kde4? | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | who cares? | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | it doesn't work | Mar 31 13:39 |
| MinceR | 4.0, 4.1, 4.2? | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | that's why I won't use it | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | all | Mar 31 13:39 |
| oiaohm | Supprising 4.2 kde works ok. | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4.2.1 still freezes | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | still crashes | Mar 31 13:39 |
| DaemonFC | still incomplete | Mar 31 13:40 |
| oiaohm | I guess you run with compiziting mode on. | Mar 31 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | oh god forbid I want some features | Mar 31 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Mar 31 13:40 |
| MinceR | ok, now we're all waiting for that perfect DE you have in mind that has more features than kde4.2 and is more stable | Mar 31 13:40 |
| oiaohm | IE DRI 1 death wish. | Mar 31 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | or ask anything at all from it | Mar 31 13:40 |
| DaemonFC | I'll use anything but KDE | Mar 31 13:40 |
| oiaohm | Don't you remember 2.6.0 | Mar 31 13:40 |
| oiaohm | of the Linux kernel. | Mar 31 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | I'd use Window Maker before KDE | Mar 31 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | seriously | Mar 31 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Lot of features were missing from it when compared to 2.4.x line. | Mar 31 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | I used to use KDE | Mar 31 13:41 |
| oiaohm | Its normal for major overhauls to be temp missing features. | Mar 31 13:41 |
| oiaohm | And temp have stablity problems. | Mar 31 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | I left after seeing what a disaster KDE 4 was | Mar 31 13:41 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: ok, now it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about | Mar 31 13:41 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4.x is a total unmitigated screw up | Mar 31 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | and there's no whitewashing that | Mar 31 13:42 |
| oiaohm | You really lack history. | Mar 31 13:42 |
| MinceR | no, it's a total unmitigated redesign | Mar 31 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | and they suck | Mar 31 13:42 |
| oiaohm | You forget the screams around all major alterations DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | it's a 2nd rate Vista knock off | Mar 31 13:42 |
| MinceR | and they did things from the start nobody else did at the time | Mar 31 13:42 |
| DaemonFC | and about as stable | Mar 31 13:42 |
| MinceR | for example, a wm that can work with or without aiglx | Mar 31 13:43 |
| MinceR | compiz++ might be able to do that _now_ | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | working involves not crashing | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | or garbling the display | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | that kind of working, right? | Mar 31 13:43 |
| MinceR | exactly that kind of working | Mar 31 13:43 |
| oiaohm | Ok you are talking about compiziting mode and KDE is not the cause of the problem DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | well, that would be GNOME and Compiz then | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | not KDE | Mar 31 13:43 |
| MinceR | except for compiz not being able to do that | Mar 31 13:43 |
| DaemonFC | Compiz works | Mar 31 13:44 |
| MinceR | because it doesn't work at all without aiglx | Mar 31 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | Kwin does not | Mar 31 13:44 |
| oiaohm | KDE wm has compiz screen rendering feature built in. | Mar 31 13:44 |
| oiaohm | Can be turned on and off DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:44 |
| MinceR | so you can't switch it on and off as needed, except by starting another wm and maintaining setup for 2 wm-s | Mar 31 13:44 |
| oiaohm | So you did not find the off switch to it. | Mar 31 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | that's like saying your giraffe plays the harmonica | Mar 31 13:44 |
| DaemonFC | uhhm, ok, cool | Mar 31 13:44 |
| MinceR | no, actually it's relevant to the use of the desktop | Mar 31 13:44 |
| MinceR | also, you may want to be less condescending if you expect people to read what you type _at all_ | Mar 31 13:44 |
| oiaohm | DRI 2 is need to fix the crash issue. cause by the screen rendering feature on. | Mar 31 13:44 |
| qdev | i know a guy that uses only console in linux | Mar 31 13:45 |
| oiaohm | KDE 4 was designed to work with DRI 2 | Mar 31 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | I've used Linux since 1998 | Mar 31 13:45 |
| *mib_ynrpzb has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Mar 31 13:45 | |
| oiaohm | DRI2 was late | Mar 31 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | and KDE 4 is by far, I mean damn | Mar 31 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | I thought it was a joke | Mar 31 13:45 |
| oiaohm | With DRI 2 compisiting gives far higher performance. | Mar 31 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | but then they actually released it | Mar 31 13:45 |
| oiaohm | Than DRI 1 compadible rendering methods. | Mar 31 13:45 |
| DaemonFC | can't even support audio CDs properly | Mar 31 13:46 |
| DaemonFC | let alone do anything else | Mar 31 13:46 |
| oiaohm | OK you are taking about the bug that disappears in the KDE 4.3 patch set. | Mar 31 13:46 |
| DaemonFC | KDE will drive you insane if you absolutely try to make it do anything useful | Mar 31 13:47 |
| MinceR | and we all know that the gui is about playing audio cd-s and nothing else | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | it's user abuse | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | no, but it can't even do that | Mar 31 13:47 |
| MinceR | they rushed 4.0 because they wanted the application devs to port the apps to kde4 | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | they have messed it up that bad | Mar 31 13:47 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel 2.6.0 | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | 4.2.1 is bad | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | over a year later | Mar 31 13:47 |
| oiaohm | It ate data. | Mar 31 13:47 |
| DaemonFC | 4.2.1 causes system crashes | Mar 31 13:47 |
| MinceR | i suspect you haven't even tried it | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | which can eat data | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | How. | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.0 kernel DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | oh, I tried 4.2.1 | Mar 31 13:48 |
| qdev | are there third-party firewalls for win7? | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | it hasn't improved | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Note a WM cannot crash system. | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Only drivers can. | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | yeah it can | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | it freezes X | Mar 31 13:48 |
| MinceR | it can if there's a bug in x | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | then you can't restart X | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | then your system is hung | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | Nop you are refering to X11 defect | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | no | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | That I talked abotu before. | Mar 31 13:48 |
| DaemonFC | it's a KDE problem | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | DRI 1 | Mar 31 13:48 |
| qdev | are third-party firewalls in vista bypassed? | Mar 31 13:48 |
| oiaohm | ITs DRI 1 | Mar 31 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | I don't even use DRI on this system | Mar 31 13:49 |
| oiaohm | ITS BEING GOD DAM REPLACED BECACUE OF IT. | Mar 31 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's done it on every kind of video card with every driver | Mar 31 13:49 |
| DaemonFC | explain that | Mar 31 13:49 |
| oiaohm | What video card driver are using it. | Mar 31 13:49 |
| oiaohm | ALL OF THEM USE IT WITH X11 | Mar 31 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Including NVIDIA in places. | Mar 31 13:49 |
| oiaohm | Core defect at the hart of X11 servers. | Mar 31 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Open source X11 servers. | Mar 31 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | Geforce 9500 GT, Geforce 7650 GS, Geforce 7300 LE. Intel 3100 integrated, Radeom Xpress 200m, Radeon HD 2400................................ | Mar 31 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | and the Nvidia driver does not use DRI | Mar 31 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Yep the lot | Mar 31 13:50 |
| oiaohm | DRI in places it does. | Mar 31 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | ATI and Intel do | Mar 31 13:50 |
| oiaohm | Where it hooks in. | Mar 31 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | Nvidia makes the only halfway decent cards | Mar 31 13:50 |
| oiaohm | The complete design of DRI 1 is a lemon. | Mar 31 13:50 |
| DaemonFC | so you're kind of stuck with them if you want any kind of video performance | Mar 31 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia only works by hacking around major DRI 1 defects. | Mar 31 13:51 |
| MinceR | and intel makes the only GPU-s with halfway decent drivers | Mar 31 13:51 |
| qdev | hey, nvidia is none the better than ati now | Mar 31 13:51 |
| MinceR | so we're stuck with stuff that sucks either way | Mar 31 13:51 |
| oiaohm | Blaming the item that is not the problem is so badly wrong its not funny. | Mar 31 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | Intel doesn't make GPUs | Mar 31 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | they make onboard video | Mar 31 13:52 |
| *harrytuttle has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client") | Mar 31 13:52 | |
| DaemonFC | that leeches system RAM | Mar 31 13:52 |
| oiaohm | The old DRI 1 stack was only designed for 1 opengl card at a time. | Mar 31 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | and the CPU | Mar 31 13:52 |
| MinceR | which are GPUs | Mar 31 13:52 |
| oiaohm | And only 1 opengl program. | Mar 31 13:52 |
| oiaohm | Anything more than that is hacking. | Mar 31 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | I would not call Intel video a GPU | Mar 31 13:52 |
| DaemonFC | as it is not a proper GPU | Mar 31 13:52 |
| MinceR | well then don't call it a GPU | Mar 31 13:52 |
| MinceR | i don't care what you call it | Mar 31 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | well, I guess it is | Mar 31 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | in the sense that a Winmodem is a modem | Mar 31 13:53 |
| MinceR | go troll elsewhere. | Mar 31 13:53 |
| oiaohm | Not all Intel video cards are vampires. | Mar 31 13:53 |
| qdev | intel cards are not even cards | Mar 31 13:53 |
| DaemonFC | you can't get good performance using DRI | Mar 31 13:54 |
| qdev | and i hope that ati and nvidia will go side by side | Mar 31 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | that's why Nvidia bypasses it | Mar 31 13:54 |
| oiaohm | DRI 2 allows bypassing X11 | Mar 31 13:54 |
| DaemonFC | you could always bypass just about all of X | Mar 31 13:55 |
| oiaohm | In kernel memory managers. | Mar 31 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | I usually call that its best feature | Mar 31 13:55 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Mar 31 13:55 |
| oiaohm | Nvidia and other cards will be playing equal there with DRI 2. | Mar 31 13:55 |
| oiaohm | Only one problem Nvidia will be slower unless they redesign. | Mar 31 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | X is old, X should be replaced | Mar 31 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | shame that Y didn't catch on | Mar 31 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | tat tat | Mar 31 13:56 |
| oiaohm | DRI 2 basically does replace X | Mar 31 13:56 |
| oiaohm | You get a frame on screen you render to directly. | Mar 31 13:56 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: Red Hat already does that | Mar 31 13:56 |
| DaemonFC | I loved the X11 chapter | Mar 31 13:56 |
| oiaohm | You can even go as far as X11 servers inside X11 servers that are inside a directfb interface. | Mar 31 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | in the UNIX Haters Handbook | Mar 31 13:57 |
| MinceR | projects that try to replace X are based on incomplete understanding of X | Mar 31 13:57 |
| MinceR | and thus they are invariably inadequate | Mar 31 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Basically X11 dependance is gone DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | no, X is crap | Mar 31 13:57 |
| oiaohm | X is not as big crap as you think. | Mar 31 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | now they even stop you from restarting it | Mar 31 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | by default | Mar 31 13:57 |
| oiaohm | Internal rendering engines of X11 are supprising hard to beat. | Mar 31 13:57 |
| DaemonFC | should something bad happen | Mar 31 13:57 |
| qdev | interface of x proggys suck | Mar 31 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Really you have not tried KMS with X11 DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | cause idiots apparently "accidentally" hit Ctrl-Alt_Bksp | Mar 31 13:58 |
| MinceR | DaemonFC: don't worry, i didn't expect you to understand X either. | Mar 31 13:58 |
| oiaohm | Its not a problem any more. | Mar 31 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | how the hell do you accidentally hit all that? | Mar 31 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | hmmm? | Mar 31 13:58 |
| oiaohm | cntrl-alt-f1 and the like override with KMS always work. | Mar 31 13:58 |
| schestowitz | oiaohm: good news. I lowered mysql load to 49.41q/sec | Mar 31 13:58 |
| oiaohm | No matter what X11 does to it self. | Mar 31 13:58 |
| DaemonFC | so now you have to override this in xorg.conf | Mar 31 13:59 |
| schestowitz | And we do about 6-7GB per day | Mar 31 13:59 |
| qdev | people usually make a shortcut of ctrl-alt-bs to left mouse button | Mar 31 13:59 |
| schestowitz | It used to be over 200q/sec | Mar 31 13:59 |
| oiaohm | ctrl-alt-bs basically is not required on a kms system DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:59 |
| DaemonFC | again with the "Users are idiots" mentality | Mar 31 13:59 |
| oiaohm | You might as well set up more effect SAK | Mar 31 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Than use ctrl-alt-bs | Mar 31 13:59 |
| oiaohm | Do you know what SAK does DaemonFC | Mar 31 13:59 |
| DaemonFC | and only Intel uses KMS right now | Mar 31 14:00 |
| DaemonFC | and it's even buggy there | Mar 31 14:00 |
| oiaohm | Answer me do you know what Linux SAK does. | Mar 31 14:00 |
| DaemonFC | and not supported by anything but the Fedora 11 Alpha | Mar 31 14:00 |
| schestowitz | Apple and GNU not to blame for this: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/03/30/i... (Internet crime jumps by a third last year) | Mar 31 14:00 |
| oiaohm | From the kernel itself It kills anything connected to the current active console DaemonFC | Mar 31 14:00 |
| oiaohm | So unlike cntrl-alt-bs that depends on X11 still working it only depends on kernel still alive. | Mar 31 14:01 |
| oiaohm | Basically cntrl alt bs is crap. | Mar 31 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | they try to graft fancy new shit on something that was kind of working | Mar 31 14:01 |
| DaemonFC | and you get graft-host rejection | Mar 31 14:01 |
| oiaohm | You are aware that 90 pecent of X11 lockups cntrl alt bs don't work. | Mar 31 14:02 |
| oiaohm | that are not drive releated. | Mar 31 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | wrong | Mar 31 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | always worked for me | Mar 31 14:02 |
| oiaohm | Normally because the keyboard interface would fallen over. | Mar 31 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | the only hard freezes I've had on Linux | Mar 31 14:02 |
| DaemonFC | were cause of KDE | Mar 31 14:02 |
| oiaohm | And they were not KDE> | Mar 31 14:03 |
| oiaohm | they were you running on a unstable graphic stack. | Mar 31 14:03 |
| DaemonFC | KDE is shoddy crap | Mar 31 14:03 |
| oiaohm | You could trigger them with wine and other opengl applications running side by side. | Mar 31 14:03 |
| DaemonFC | They should tell you that it may cause data loss, using something they call a mature product | Mar 31 14:03 |
| oiaohm | You don't need KDE to trigger the death. | Mar 31 14:03 |
| oiaohm | This is your problem. I have debuged wine issues and KDE issue and compiz issues. | Mar 31 14:04 |
| oiaohm | They are all releated. | Mar 31 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | Wine runs Windows programs on Linux, you're kind of going into it fully expecting a possible disaster | Mar 31 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | KDE is supposed to be Linux supported | Mar 31 14:04 |
| oiaohm | When you think wined3d that is bring X11 down | Mar 31 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | but apparently it's not | Mar 31 14:04 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Mar 31 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Runs perfectly on closed source X11 servers. | Mar 31 14:04 |
| oiaohm | Just not the open source ones. | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Same with KDE 4 | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | So where is the problem. | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | It is in X11 | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | I have even had blender with other applications bring X11 down. | Mar 31 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | KDE is just wrong, it's unstable, it can't do simple tasks right | Mar 31 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | and it's poorly laid out | Mar 31 14:05 |
| DaemonFC | a bad Vista clone | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Layout is one thing. | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | Droping you back to login. | Mar 31 14:05 |
| oiaohm | is one thing. | Mar 31 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Locking up the system no user space program can do without driver defects. | Mar 31 14:06 |
| DaemonFC | I'm just saying it has no redeeming qualities | Mar 31 14:06 |
| DaemonFC | and there needs to be a big fat warning that the developers are incompetent | Mar 31 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Or X11 internal defects. | Mar 31 14:06 |
| DaemonFC | and it may eat your data | Mar 31 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Just like early 2.6 Linux kernels. | Mar 31 14:06 |
| oiaohm | Always takes a few versions to get the rough edges off. | Mar 31 14:07 |
| MinceR | 151439 < DaemonFC> a bad Vista clone | Mar 31 14:07 |
| MinceR | i lol'd | Mar 31 14:07 |
| oiaohm | KDE 3.0 also was rough. | Mar 31 14:07 |
| oiaohm | Vista is a clone of development KDE 4 | Mar 31 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | Kite-eating-tree Desktop Environment | Mar 31 14:07 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Mar 31 14:07 |
| oiaohm | Longhorn early interfaces that become Vista looked nothing like KDE 4 until after KDE development snapshots were released. | Mar 31 14:08 |
| oiaohm | Then it kinda cloned. | Mar 31 14:08 |
| zer0c00l | conflicker unplugged http://www.caida.org/research/s... | Mar 31 14:08 |
| schestowitz | kde4 seems to have inspire Vista7 | Mar 31 14:09 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: I've watch about 1.5 hours of that new RMS talk and paused it until I watch the rest of it later. The talk is not as good as others that he gave and he seems to have mixed together several familiar talks. | Mar 31 14:09 |
| DaemonFC | KDE is not a good Linux experience | Mar 31 14:10 |
| DaemonFC | and especially not for new users | Mar 31 14:10 |
| DaemonFC | it should never be promoted to anyone that needs a stable desktop | Mar 31 14:11 |
| oiaohm | You try to make out KDE as bad. | Mar 31 14:11 |
| schestowitz | o" boy... Adobe wants more Flash in Facebook < http://www.theinquirer.net/i... > | Mar 31 14:11 |
| DaemonFC | it is | Mar 31 14:11 |
| DaemonFC | KDE is I Can't Believe It's Not Vista | Mar 31 14:11 |
| schestowitz | KDE uses old metaphors that are familiar | Mar 31 14:11 |
| DaemonFC | well, except Vista can properly play audio CDs | Mar 31 14:11 |
| schestowitz | Vista invested NOTHING | Mar 31 14:11 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: don't use ubiquity for attrib | Mar 31 14:11 |
| schestowitz | Vista invented NOTHING | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | Want me to show you internal MS E-mails? | Mar 31 14:12 |
| oiaohm | Vista copied. | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | Where Allchin rips off Mac OS X? | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | I just tell everyone that asks to use GNOME | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | He actually talks about it | Mar 31 14:12 |
| zer0c00l | i still love kde 3.5 , 4.2 is good | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | How Microsoft needs to copy this for LH | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | I've never had GNOME crash or bring down the ENTIRE system | Mar 31 14:12 |
| oiaohm | You are saying KDE is a clone of Vista when the reverse is true DaemonFC | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | I've never had KDE crash or bring down the ENTIRE system | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | KDE 4 didn't exist when Vista was being designed | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | KDE ripped them off | Mar 31 14:12 |
| schestowitz | I had maybe 2 GPU errors leading to it | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | clearlt | Mar 31 14:12 |
| DaemonFC | *clearly | Mar 31 14:13 |
| oiaohm | It development tree did DaemonFC | Mar 31 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Its planing documents did. | Mar 31 14:13 |
| schestowitz | KDE4 was developed in 2005 DaemonFC | Mar 31 14:13 |
| DaemonFC | so you're telling me that in 2004, KDE 4 had the GUI finalized? | Mar 31 14:13 |
| schestowitz | In 2005 Microsoft put Longhorn in the trash can, or right about that time | Mar 31 14:13 |
| DaemonFC | or even close? | Mar 31 14:13 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: what GUI? | Mar 31 14:13 |
| schestowitz | What part of the GUI? | Mar 31 14:13 |
| oiaohm | Longhorn intrface was dumped about 1 month after KDE 4 planing documents were released. | Mar 31 14:13 |
| schestowitz | The close button? | Mar 31 14:14 |
| schestowitz | The start botton? | Mar 31 14:14 |
| DaemonFC | I used development versions of Longhorn | Mar 31 14:14 |
| schestowitz | Which is now just the Windows logo? | Mar 31 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Because they looked aht the KDE plan and when crap. | Mar 31 14:14 |
| DaemonFC | it was obvious that Microsoft copied Apple | Mar 31 14:14 |
| oiaohm | Ours is bad. | Mar 31 14:14 |
| DaemonFC | then KDE copied Microsoft | Mar 31 14:14 |
| oiaohm | No | Mar 31 14:14 |
| oiaohm | History says you are wrong. | Mar 31 14:14 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Mar 31 14:14 |