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| schestowitz | Some people use the GUIs | Apr 04 00:00 |
|---|---|---|
| Balrog_ | some people refuse to use linux for that reason | Apr 04 00:00 |
| oiaohm | So developers who should have built good X11 gui tools went to webmin. | Apr 04 00:00 |
| oiaohm | Times will change once X11 is stable. | Apr 04 00:00 |
| Balrog_ | X11 is stable, isn't it? | Apr 04 00:01 |
| *tacone downloading suse | Apr 04 00:01 | |
| oiaohm | If you call switching between console mode and X11 beening able to make video card usable stable. Balrog_ | Apr 04 00:01 |
| Balrog_ | why suse? | Apr 04 00:01 |
| tacone | why not ? | Apr 04 00:01 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: usually the video card works for me. | Apr 04 00:02 |
| oiaohm | Do it enough times with DRI 1 drivers you are dead. | Apr 04 00:02 |
| oiaohm | Even DRI2 drivers without KMS. | Apr 04 00:02 |
| Balrog_ | as I said, works for me | Apr 04 00:02 |
| oiaohm | KMS also means X11 locks are switchable away. | Apr 04 00:03 |
| oiaohm | Stable | Apr 04 00:03 |
| oiaohm | Just because something works lots of the time does not mean its not badly broken. | Apr 04 00:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | can u explain KMS? | Apr 04 00:03 |
| oiaohm | NTFS on windows is a good example of that. | Apr 04 00:03 |
| oiaohm | KMS Kernel Mode Switching. | Apr 04 00:04 |
| oiaohm | The kernel take control of switching access from video card from like X11 to terminal or to framebuffer. | Apr 04 00:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | and what is the advantage of that? speed? safety? | Apr 04 00:05 |
| oiaohm | Compared to current method of hog pog chatter between X11 and console mode. You pray they get it right every time you do it. | Apr 04 00:05 |
| oiaohm | safety and speed. | Apr 04 00:05 |
| _Hicham_1 | KMS is introduced with 2.6.29, right? | Apr 04 00:06 |
| oiaohm | For intel cards yes _Hicham_1 | Apr 04 00:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | just for intel cards? | Apr 04 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Hopefully ATI support will appear in 2.6.29 | Apr 04 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Opps | Apr 04 00:06 |
| oiaohm | 2.6.30 | Apr 04 00:06 |
| oiaohm | Support required driver design alterations _Hicham_1 | Apr 04 00:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | the radeon driver will be modified then? | Apr 04 00:07 |
| oiaohm | Most radeon cards will stop using closed source drivers. | Apr 04 00:07 |
| oiaohm | Instead use the open source drivers that support it. | Apr 04 00:07 |
| _Hicham_1 | as an AMD initiative to cut costs | Apr 04 00:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | u told me that last time | Apr 04 00:08 |
| _Hicham_1 | will that help reduce boot time? | Apr 04 00:08 |
| oiaohm | It makes sence from stablity as well. | Apr 04 00:08 |
| *amarsh04 wants to get a new athlon/radeon based desktop machine soon... if I can still find someone who can get a 45 W CPU and low power graphics card | Apr 04 00:08 | |
| oiaohm | KMS removes flicker when booting. | Apr 04 00:08 |
| oiaohm | Not really a stablity change. | Apr 04 00:08 |
| oiaohm | but nice just the same. | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | I'm moving to nouveau | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | is it KMS? | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | I already use it on one system) | Apr 04 00:09 |
| oiaohm | nouveau will support KMS | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | does it already? | Apr 04 00:09 |
| oiaohm | I would have to look. | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | or do I need a later kernel? | Apr 04 00:09 |
| oiaohm | KMS required a kernel module. | Apr 04 00:09 |
| _Hicham_1 | does that mean that plymouth will be available ? | Apr 04 00:09 |
| Balrog_ | http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/09/04/0... | Apr 04 00:10 |
| _Hicham_1 | I heard that plymouth will be able to use native drivers during boot | Apr 04 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | "If the company isn't careful, it will find itself stuck in price comparisons with Apple that only highlight how much cheaper Linux PCs can be without Windows, and usability comparisons with Linux that highlight how much more attractive Macs are to buyers who don't want to deal with complication." | Apr 04 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | <<quote | Apr 04 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | and Linux usability will quickly improve, and MS will lose $$$ | Apr 04 00:10 |
| Balrog_ | also that 'songsmith' commercial ... well, :X | Apr 04 00:11 |
| oiaohm | KMS + GEM + DRI2 addes a lot of features people cannot dream off. | Apr 04 00:12 |
| oiaohm | Like running 2 X11 servers side by side and having 3d support. | Apr 04 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | oiaohm: except that it's not ready yet :/ | Apr 04 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | yeah. | Apr 04 00:12 |
| Balrog_ | what about that replacement for X11 that one redhat engineer is working on?? | Apr 04 00:12 |
| oiaohm | Then allowing you to have 1 of those X11 servers displayed inside the other one. | Apr 04 00:12 |
| oiaohm | Load up a framebuffer application then have both of those X11 servers displayed in it. | Apr 04 00:13 |
| oiaohm | Basically stacking of graphical envorments will become possiable. | Apr 04 00:13 |
| oiaohm | The redhat guy with the prototype X11 server is working out what can be done. | Apr 04 00:14 |
| oiaohm | It is turning out to be lots. | Apr 04 00:14 |
| oiaohm | Next question is what is most useful to users. | Apr 04 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | I see. | Apr 04 00:14 |
| Balrog_ | any blog on what he's doing? | Apr 04 00:14 |
| schestowitz | Use Phoronix | Apr 04 00:16 |
| schestowitz | Search by subject | Apr 04 00:17 |
| schestowitz | No coverage about this in a while, though | Apr 04 00:17 |
| Balrog_ | then I have nothing to look at | Apr 04 00:17 |
| schestowitz | http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?pag... | Apr 04 00:18 |
| schestowitz | http://www.google.com/search?q=site:www.... | Apr 04 00:18 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: how do you feel about those anti-Apple ads? I think they're giving reasons for using Linux | Apr 04 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: let them shoot each other | Apr 04 00:18 |
| oiaohm | http://cgit.freedesktop.org/... << release nots off wayland | Apr 04 00:18 |
| tacone | ? | Apr 04 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft makes fun of Mac | Apr 04 00:18 |
| tacone | shot each other ? | Apr 04 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Remember MS people complaining about all the levels of extraction X11 has. | Apr 04 00:18 |
| schestowitz | Apple makes fun of Windows | Apr 04 00:18 |
| oiaohm | Wayland has none of it. | Apr 04 00:19 |
| schestowitz | No-one makes fun of Linux on TV | Apr 04 00:19 |
| tacone | seems to me they do publicity to each otehr. | Apr 04 00:19 |
| tacone | other | Apr 04 00:19 |
| oiaohm | Lots and lots of direct to video card rendering. | Apr 04 00:19 |
| schestowitz | tacone: that too | Apr 04 00:19 |
| schestowitz | At the expense of their buyers | Apr 04 00:19 |
| tacone | i'm pc / i'm mac | Apr 04 00:19 |
| schestowitz | Who do you think pays for these adverts? | Apr 04 00:19 |
| schestowitz | Like all adverts? | Apr 04 00:20 |
| tacone | promote duopoly, and stay very careful to never compete directly on anything | Apr 04 00:20 |
| schestowitz | On average, 25% of the price of anything you buy covers marketing | Apr 04 00:20 |
| tacone | (but zune/ipod, that's a different market though) | Apr 04 00:20 |
| schestowitz | GNu/Linux costs $0, typically | Apr 04 00:20 |
| schestowitz | That's 25% of $0 :-) | Apr 04 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Zune is in a differnet market | Apr 04 00:20 |
| schestowitz | Mortuaries. | Apr 04 00:20 |
| tacone | zombies :-) | Apr 04 00:21 |
| Balrog_ | I know of a few zune users | Apr 04 00:21 |
| Balrog_ | many regret their purchase : | Apr 04 00:21 |
| Balrog_ | :P | Apr 04 00:21 |
| schestowitz | http://www.flickr.com/photos/fim... | Apr 04 00:21 |
| schestowitz | They should change the label there in Remond | Apr 04 00:21 |
| schestowitz | It should say "buy me" | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Or.. | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | They could keep the label and put Zunes in it | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Make a bonfire | Apr 04 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | I hear that several Zunes got in there :P | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | The toxins will fill the buildings | Apr 04 00:22 |
| tacone | gates are bad parents. they don't have their children to have the iPod. | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | Thus disracting the engineers | Apr 04 00:22 |
| schestowitz | making them high like Steve Ballmer | Apr 04 00:22 |
| Balrog_ | tacone: ballmer is much worse in that regard | Apr 04 00:23 |
| tacone | what does it do ? | Apr 04 00:23 |
| tacone | doesn't allow children to eat apples ? | Apr 04 00:23 |
| Balrog_ | he doesn't allow them to use google either | Apr 04 00:24 |
| tacone | oh, well :) | Apr 04 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | http://www.tuaw.com/2006/03/28/ballmer-to... | Apr 04 00:24 |
| Balrog_ | that's a little dated, but I've seen newer ones | Apr 04 00:25 |
| tacone | i doubt they will get good school results with Live Search. | Apr 04 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | I never get good results with live search | Apr 04 00:25 |
| schestowitz | So how do they search the Web? | Apr 04 00:25 |
| schestowitz | Yahoo ! portal? | Apr 04 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | when I install windows (I have to at times), I always replace live search in IE with google and yahoo | Apr 04 00:25 |
| Balrog_ | google defauly | Apr 04 00:26 |
| Balrog_ | default * | Apr 04 00:26 |
| schestowitz | Haha | Apr 04 00:26 |
| schestowitz | They use croogle | Apr 04 00:26 |
| schestowitz | I knew it! | Apr 04 00:26 |
| Balrog_ | and remove live | Apr 04 00:26 |
| schestowitz | *scroogle | Apr 04 00:26 |
| tacone | they probably start from Windows Live Directory | Apr 04 00:26 |
| tacone | and browse the web one link at once. | Apr 04 00:26 |
| amarsh04 | there is a need for alternative search engines... what is there besides google, ms, and yahoo? | Apr 04 00:26 |
| schestowitz | "But DAD... live SUCKS BALLS!" | Apr 04 00:26 |
| oiaohm | Don't forget the wayback machine amarsh04 | Apr 04 00:27 |
| amarsh04 | true, oiaohm | Apr 04 00:27 |
| oiaohm | For all that stuff google yahoo and MS cannot access any more. | Apr 04 00:27 |
| tacone | uh, wikia just closed, I guess | Apr 04 00:27 |
| tacone | officially gave up, i meant. | Apr 04 00:27 |
| amarsh04 | wow, www.anzwers.com.au is still up | Apr 04 00:28 |
| oiaohm | Most of the old search engines are still around. | Apr 04 00:28 |
| tacone | oh, and there was a mad project of a p2p search engine in launchpad | Apr 04 00:28 |
| tacone | I guess they never got even the basic things working. | Apr 04 00:28 |
| oiaohm | Its just hard to compete with super powers like google that have the power to build there own truly custom servers. | Apr 04 00:28 |
| Balrog_ | wikia is closed? | Apr 04 00:29 |
| oiaohm | Yes truly custom right down to there own motherboards. | Apr 04 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | heh | Apr 04 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | idk how they can have a patent on something as obvious as an integrated battery | Apr 04 00:29 |
| _Hicham_1 | Encarta will be closed | Apr 04 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | though that could have been apr fools | Apr 04 00:29 |
| amarsh04 | doesn't find anything though )-: | Apr 04 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | encarta is done. | Apr 04 00:29 |
| Balrog_ | explain 'wikia is closed'...? | Apr 04 00:30 |
| _Hicham_1 | Encarta will disappear by the end of this year | Apr 04 00:30 |
| oiaohm | MS is running out of money to maintain things. | Apr 04 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Microsoft ruins it :-) | Apr 04 00:30 |
| schestowitz | Buy and bury | Apr 04 00:30 |
| oiaohm | Encarta is just the first of many to go. | Apr 04 00:30 |
| oiaohm | MS will become a lot leaner company if nothing else. | Apr 04 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Remember Cuil? | Apr 04 00:31 |
| schestowitz | aka Google killer? | Apr 04 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Oh Knol? | Apr 04 00:31 |
| DaemonFC | Encarta is closing? | Apr 04 00:31 |
| tacone | Balrog_: i meant.. wikia search. | Apr 04 00:31 |
| schestowitz | Britannica is trying to copy Wikipedia now. It ran out of ideas | Apr 04 00:31 |
| schestowitz | DaemonFC: yes | Apr 04 00:32 |
| tacone | http://www.cbc.ca/technology/story/20... | Apr 04 00:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | vive wikipedia | Apr 04 00:32 |
| oiaohm | I forget wikipedia | Apr 04 00:32 |
| amarsh04 | webwombat.com.au doesn't work without javascript enabled, and has limited results | Apr 04 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | Wikipedia? | Apr 04 00:32 |
| oiaohm | It does make a good search/compare site for applications. | Apr 04 00:32 |
| _Hicham_1 | there is a wikipedia cd for offline use | Apr 04 00:32 |
| Balrog_ | ah that. | Apr 04 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | Wikipedia is not a good thing to trust | Apr 04 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | anyone can edit it | Apr 04 00:32 |
| tacone | the world is not a good thing to trust. | Apr 04 00:32 |
| DaemonFC | so they can insert wrong info | Apr 04 00:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | Wikipedia is very well managed | Apr 04 00:33 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: can you trust that a auther of a book was not bias. | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Apr 04 00:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | and controlled too | Apr 04 00:33 |
| tacone | what other you trust better than wikipedia ? | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | a few people with politically charged opinions | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | edit out others contributions | Apr 04 00:33 |
| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : I tried what u r saying | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | systematically | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | you have entire unsourced articles | Apr 04 00:33 |
| DaemonFC | written by some guy | Apr 04 00:33 |
| oiaohm | Problem here what you are saying you find in books too DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : source them | Apr 04 00:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D | Apr 04 00:34 |
| amarsh04 | google still finds stepdaughter's web page on 8th match on her name | Apr 04 00:34 |
| tacone | or revert them to previous versions. | Apr 04 00:34 |
| _Hicham_1 | or put an objection | Apr 04 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | for example, the Christians | Apr 04 00:34 |
| DaemonFC | they make sure the anti-gay articles reflect themselves in a positive manner | Apr 04 00:34 |
| tacone | btw is not about how much you trust wikipedia | Apr 04 00:34 |
| tacone | is what can you trust more than that ? | Apr 04 00:35 |
| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : why did u choose anti-gay articles? | Apr 04 00:35 |
| oiaohm | wikipedia is only a tool like any other reference sources. | Apr 04 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | just a good example | Apr 04 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | Wikipedia is hijacked by special interests | Apr 04 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | like Christians | Apr 04 00:35 |
| oiaohm | And the bible is not DaemonFC? | Apr 04 00:35 |
| DaemonFC | and is fileld with bogus articles | Apr 04 00:35 |
| oiaohm | They cannot even get the words right in it. | Apr 04 00:35 |
| oiaohm | There have been errors in every reference source though out time. | Apr 04 00:36 |
| Balrog_ | hrm? | Apr 04 00:36 |
| oiaohm | Causes by special interests. | Apr 04 00:36 |
| schestowitz | Wikipedia contains references | Apr 04 00:36 |
| schestowitz | .If you don't trust it, then click End for bottom of page | Apr 04 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | Charlatans and Frauds, AKA Christians, make sure anti-gay articles are totally biuased in their favor | Apr 04 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | it's a Wiki gang | Apr 04 00:36 |
| DaemonFC | and you see that all over the site | Apr 04 00:37 |
| oiaohm | Wikipedia is not peferect. | Apr 04 00:37 |
| Balrog_ | "Charlatans and Frauds, AKA Christians" ... that's an over-generalization, IMO | Apr 04 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | Wikipedia is a Republican/Christian/Big Business mouth piece | Apr 04 00:37 |
| oiaohm | The church messes with print media as well at different times in history. | Apr 04 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | it is Fox News only it looks fair | Apr 04 00:37 |
| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : so u want them to promote gay articles? | Apr 04 00:37 |
| tacone | wikipedia is to be taken with some salt as anything else. | Apr 04 00:37 |
| amarsh04 | If you don't like what a web site posts, put up your own web pages to say why | Apr 04 00:37 |
| oiaohm | There is no reference matterials that are above what you are saying DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:37 |
| DaemonFC | I find Christians to be the most despicable people | Apr 04 00:37 |
| tacone | but i still don't see anything better or comparable | Apr 04 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | they just outright smear anyone they hate | Apr 04 00:38 |
| oiaohm | Just most people using wikipedia are aware of it. | Apr 04 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | and they get away with whatever they want | Apr 04 00:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : they let u change things | Apr 04 00:38 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: can you document any reference source where that cannot happen? | Apr 04 00:38 |
| DaemonFC | even when they so clearly have their head up their collective ass | Apr 04 00:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | schestowitz : I think that he is beginning | Apr 04 00:39 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: Look at the other reference sources out there can you say what is happening in the wikipedia has never happened in the others? | Apr 04 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | Wikipedia just sucks | Apr 04 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | there is no fixing it | Apr 04 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | the end | Apr 04 00:39 |
| _Hicham_1 | ok, that shows it again | Apr 04 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | there's no fixing it | Apr 04 00:39 |
| oiaohm | Difference is Wikipedia you can see the revisions. | Apr 04 00:39 |
| DaemonFC | cause no matter how wrong they are, there's more of them | Apr 04 00:39 |
| oiaohm | If wikipedia is not fixable might as well destroy all libraries. | Apr 04 00:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | Wikipedia sucks, KDE Krap, Linux is just a clone, and so on ... | Apr 04 00:40 |
| oiaohm | Because they have the same problem in lots of there books. | Apr 04 00:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | we know what u will say | Apr 04 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | they doctor up quotes by crackpot Christian zealots posing as qualified mental health experts | Apr 04 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | and that shit flies | Apr 04 00:40 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: is Hell a real word of a made up one. | Apr 04 00:40 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : don't feed the troll | Apr 04 00:40 |
| DaemonFC | Hell is having to deal with a group of fascist morons | Apr 04 00:41 |
| DaemonFC | who run the whole show | Apr 04 00:41 |
| DaemonFC | (Christians) | Apr 04 00:41 |
| oiaohm | Hell is infact a translation error. | Apr 04 00:41 |
| oiaohm | The correct word is not Hell. | Apr 04 00:41 |
| oiaohm | The descriptions of Hell are also wrong. | Apr 04 00:41 |
| tacone | it's shell ? | Apr 04 00:41 |
| oiaohm | In the bibble because they have been changed to get converts. | Apr 04 00:41 |
| oiaohm | Its like the walking on water bit it never happened | Apr 04 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Another great miss translation. | Apr 04 00:42 |
| Balrog_ | many of these interpretations are highly disputed. | Apr 04 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | I think Jesus was just made of fizzy pop | Apr 04 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | thats why he floated on water | Apr 04 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 04 00:42 |
| oiaohm | He walked besided water. | Apr 04 00:42 |
| Balrog_ | you really need to know greek and hebrew if you want to do that kind of research :/ | Apr 04 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | that's scienctific explanation | Apr 04 00:42 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : do u think Linux needs a unified package management system? | Apr 04 00:42 |
| DaemonFC | quick copy it to Wikipedia | Apr 04 00:42 |
| oiaohm | Some how that got translated to he walked on water. | Apr 04 00:42 |
| oiaohm | _Hicham_1: Linux will get one in time. | Apr 04 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | No it won't, and it won't matter if it does | Apr 04 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | Just look at how compatible RPM distros are | Apr 04 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 04 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | you install one thing and 20 dependency problrms | Apr 04 00:43 |
| oiaohm | LSB is building a frame work that does not care about the distributions runtime. | Apr 04 00:43 |
| DaemonFC | cause it was built for Red Hat and you're running it on Mandriva | Apr 04 00:44 |
| oiaohm | The Linux kernel is perfectly stable ABI to userspace. | Apr 04 00:44 |
| oiaohm | So the issue you are talking about is not important DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | unless every distro used the same versions of the same shared libraries | Apr 04 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | it wouldn't matter | Apr 04 00:44 |
| DaemonFC | cause they're incompatible with packages from the others | Apr 04 00:44 |
| oiaohm | Applications ship there own from a common source DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:44 |
| oiaohm | That is not linked to any distribution. | Apr 04 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | that's where Gentoo resorts to compiling from source | Apr 04 00:45 |
| oiaohm | Yes that upper crap does not matter at all. | Apr 04 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | which is poor comrpomise for installing and using | Apr 04 00:45 |
| oiaohm | LSB is taking a different path. | Apr 04 00:45 |
| DaemonFC | Linux may as well be Proprietary UNIX, that's what I meant | Apr 04 00:45 |
| oiaohm | In time there will be 1 format for all. | Apr 04 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | different distros are incompatible, and that's the intention | Apr 04 00:46 |
| oiaohm | LSB intention. | Apr 04 00:46 |
| oiaohm | To bring all distributions into 1. | Apr 04 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | LSB is ran by the companies that want to be incompatible | Apr 04 00:46 |
| oiaohm | They are not as incompatible as most distributions think. | Apr 04 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Nope | Apr 04 00:46 |
| schestowitz | self expression | Apr 04 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | It's no different than IRIX vs Solaris vs HP-UX | Apr 04 00:46 |
| schestowitz | Like Debian | Apr 04 00:46 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : do u think rpm and dpkg can merge? | Apr 04 00:46 |
| oiaohm | LSB has distribution makers and ISV. | Apr 04 00:46 |
| amarsh04 | I see more cooperation between different linux distributions in a day than there ever were between different proprietary unixes | Apr 04 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | they're all UNIX, they alll certify | Apr 04 00:46 |
| DaemonFC | why are they not compatible? | Apr 04 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | cause the vendor doesn't want them to | Apr 04 00:47 |
| oiaohm | I think rpm and dpkg will become not important. | Apr 04 00:47 |
| DaemonFC | they only just say that | Apr 04 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Like evey other package manager. | Apr 04 00:47 |
| oiaohm | In time the importance of distributions will be nuked by the needs if ISV's. | Apr 04 00:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : they are the main package managers | Apr 04 00:47 |
| oiaohm | ISV=Independant Software Vendors. | Apr 04 00:47 |
| oiaohm | Needs if ISV is the means to install everywhere no matter what. | Apr 04 00:48 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : so u say that something like autopackage will win? | Apr 04 00:48 |
| tacone | like klik perhaps. | Apr 04 00:48 |
| oiaohm | So Package mangers come nothering more than something to put a wraper around to register with and to extract information from to reduce downloads. | Apr 04 00:48 |
| oiaohm | Basically not important. | Apr 04 00:48 |
| tacone | bundled libs everywhere. | Apr 04 00:49 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: Linux Standard Base has two forces not 1. | Apr 04 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | there's no such thing as a Linux Standards Base | Apr 04 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | they might call it that, but it's not what it is | Apr 04 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | or does | Apr 04 00:49 |
| DaemonFC | it's just another SUS | Apr 04 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | ;) | Apr 04 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | and there's no such thing as a software standard anyway | Apr 04 00:50 |
| oiaohm | Do you know how much of the current desktop envorment on Linux depends on standards from Linux Standards Base. | Apr 04 00:50 |
| DaemonFC | \standards are for steel beams | Apr 04 00:50 |
| oiaohm | There are standards. | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | they're not true standards | Apr 04 00:51 |
| oiaohm | They are followed. | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | cause there's no penalty for breaking them, and there's buggy test suites | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | and there's wiggle room | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 04 00:51 |
| oiaohm | Yes there is a penalty. | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | what, you get your phony standard phony certification revoked? | Apr 04 00:51 |
| DaemonFC | the one that is meaningless? | Apr 04 00:52 |
| oiaohm | ISV got pissed and now added a way that applications will be able to ship there own LSB runtime. | Apr 04 00:52 |
| DaemonFC | :P | Apr 04 00:52 |
| oiaohm | So you dont follow standard. | Apr 04 00:52 |
| oiaohm | Your users suffer. | Apr 04 00:52 |
| oiaohm | Distributions refused to always provide LSB dynamic loader. | Apr 04 00:53 |
| oiaohm | So that will be embeded into LSB binaries. | Apr 04 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | LSB is just masturbation | Apr 04 00:53 |
| oiaohm | Not really DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | it's not consistent, it only defines "some" things | Apr 04 00:53 |
| oiaohm | You cannot force distributions to follow. | Apr 04 00:53 |
| oiaohm | But you can make them not important. | Apr 04 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | and it's made sot hat only corporate distros can get certified | Apr 04 00:53 |
| DaemonFC | so til it's a real standard | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | it may as well not exist | Apr 04 00:54 |
| oiaohm | If LSB did not exist we would still have configuration files on every distribution in different locations. | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | LSB is just as ugly as ACPI | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | and we know what a great standard ACPI is | Apr 04 00:54 |
| oiaohm | And with different names. | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | and how it always works | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | consistently | Apr 04 00:54 |
| DaemonFC | everywhere | Apr 04 00:54 |
| oiaohm | I never said LSB was a clean standard. | Apr 04 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | and how suspend/resume never fails | Apr 04 00:55 |
| oiaohm | Or a complete 1. | Apr 04 00:55 |
| oiaohm | LSB is a standard in the process of being developed. | Apr 04 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | LSB is meaningless | Apr 04 00:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | like freedesktop | Apr 04 00:55 |
| _Hicham_1 | look at freedesktop | Apr 04 00:55 |
| DaemonFC | there can be *no* wiggle room, *no* bugs in the test suite, and *everything* you are standardizing must be defined | Apr 04 00:56 |
| _Hicham_1 | freedesktop is really a great project | Apr 04 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | and there has to be penalty for non-compliance | Apr 04 00:56 |
| DaemonFC | otherwise LSB is masturbation | Apr 04 00:56 |
| _Hicham_1 | freedesktop is allowing us to integrate applications i DEs seemlesly | Apr 04 00:56 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: you cannot just create a house without laying foundations. | Apr 04 00:56 |
| _Hicham_1 | via specifications | Apr 04 00:56 |
| oiaohm | Its the same with creating a large standard. | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | all LSB tells me is that my Ubuntu wil act somewhat like his Fedora or that guys Mandriva | Apr 04 00:57 |
| oiaohm | LSB has been building the foundation. | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | what a wonderful, useful thing that is | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | right? | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | all by itself it has solved nothing | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | but sounds cool | Apr 04 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Before LSB you could not even have text base applications be portable. | Apr 04 00:57 |
| DaemonFC | B-) | Apr 04 00:57 |
| oiaohm | Between any distribution. | Apr 04 00:58 |
| oiaohm | LSB has made progress. | Apr 04 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Just not as much as people like you are demarding DaemonFC | Apr 04 00:58 |
| oiaohm | You are one of these people who want a complete city built from scratch in a day. | Apr 04 00:58 |
| oiaohm | Its simply impossiable to do it that fast. | Apr 04 00:58 |
| DaemonFC | not really | Apr 04 00:59 |
| oiaohm | You are. | Apr 04 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | I want them to stop encouraging distros to implement bugs | Apr 04 00:59 |
| DaemonFC | to compensate for the test suite | Apr 04 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Do you know how hard it is to build test suites. | Apr 04 00:59 |
| oiaohm | Its not what you call a simple process. | Apr 04 01:00 |
| DaemonFC | if you want the distros to be buggier | Apr 04 01:00 |
| DaemonFC | then don't make the "standard" | Apr 04 01:00 |
| oiaohm | Its very much like building a city. | Apr 04 01:00 |
| oiaohm | Somethings will be wrong and will have to be fixed. | Apr 04 01:00 |
| _Hicham_1 | hahaha | Apr 04 01:00 |
| oiaohm | Not every test suit works right. | Apr 04 01:00 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm is taking him seriously | Apr 04 01:00 |
| _Hicham_1 | great | Apr 04 01:00 |
| DaemonFC | LSB has done nothing meaningful except make money for The Open Group | Apr 04 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | just admit that | Apr 04 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Has every html test suite every worked right. | Apr 04 01:01 |
| _Hicham_1 | great conversations by the way | Apr 04 01:01 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:01 |
| oiaohm | Problem is LSB has done very useful things for me. | Apr 04 01:01 |
| oiaohm | You are head to head with a person who has built closed source applications on Linux. | Apr 04 01:01 |
| DaemonFC | Linux distros are every bit as incompatible as before | Apr 04 01:01 |
| oiaohm | And used LSB to run them accross distributions. | Apr 04 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | only now you have to pay racketeering scams to certify your bullshit | Apr 04 01:02 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : u should do some data recovery inside his brain :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:02 |
| oiaohm | Wine project is a good example of how the incompatibles have reduced. | Apr 04 01:02 |
| oiaohm | This days there is almost no distribution targeted code in it. | Apr 04 01:02 |
| DaemonFC | if you need compatibility, there's one Apple, or one Microsoft, or one HP, or one Sun | Apr 04 01:03 |
| oiaohm | If binaries are built the right way they do run basically everywhere. | Apr 04 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | Linux is not even compatible with itself | Apr 04 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | because of the distribution clusterfuck | Apr 04 01:03 |
| oiaohm | What crap is that. | Apr 04 01:03 |
| MinceR | gn | Apr 04 01:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:03 |
| oiaohm | Static binaries on Linux have been compadible with Linux kernel after kernel. | Apr 04 01:03 |
| DaemonFC | There's also no compatibility guarantee with Linux between 3 month releases | Apr 04 01:03 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | so an ABI that works one way in 2.6.29 | Apr 04 01:04 |
| oiaohm | By the way Linux static binaries is the univerial binary for Unix. | Apr 04 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | could be fixed or removed by 2.6.30 | Apr 04 01:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:04 |
| oiaohm | Userspace ABI on Linux kernel don't change. | Apr 04 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | they might warn you to quit using it | Apr 04 01:04 |
| oiaohm | It stays the same between all kernels. | Apr 04 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | but if you're using closed source stuff | Apr 04 01:04 |
| DaemonFC | that doesn't help you | Apr 04 01:04 |
| _Hicham_1 | :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D: D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D | Apr 04 01:04 |
| oiaohm | The compained about abi in the Linux kernel is the Driver ABI. | Apr 04 01:04 |
| amarsh04 | a syscall stays "forever" | Apr 04 01:04 |
| "You are head to head with a person who has built closed source applications on Linux." Thanks, but no thanks. :-D | Apr 04 01:05 | |
| oiaohm | You have a big myth of incompadible on Linux DaemonFC | Apr 04 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Linux kernel allows every application to have there own dynamic loader if they wish. | Apr 04 01:05 |
| amarsh04 | drivers need to be provided as source for linux to allow the driver model to improve over time | Apr 04 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Independant to the distributions. | Apr 04 01:05 |
| oiaohm | There is no reason why a application has to get messed up with Distribution internal messes. | Apr 04 01:05 |
| oiaohm | Other than the myth around Distributions. | Apr 04 01:06 |
| _Hicham_1 | hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh | Apr 04 01:06 |
| oiaohm | LSB tried at first working with Distributions. | Apr 04 01:07 |
| oiaohm | These days they are thowing in the towel and going the independant path of own embeded dynamic loader . Basically a fuck you to distribution incompadibles. | Apr 04 01:07 |
| DaemonFC | that's what I mean, there's no such thing as Linux and compatibility | Apr 04 01:08 |
| DaemonFC | you have to statically link everything | Apr 04 01:09 |
| oiaohm | No | Apr 04 01:09 |
| DaemonFC | or else it won't work 3 months from now | Apr 04 01:09 |
| oiaohm | You can dynamic link. | Apr 04 01:09 |
| oiaohm | Just include your own loader. | Apr 04 01:09 |
| oiaohm | Its always been a option. | Apr 04 01:09 |
| oiaohm | With your own loader you can pick and choose what of your owns and what of the distributions you use. | Apr 04 01:10 |
| oiaohm | Basically you can do exactly what windows does with dll in the applciation directory if you wish. | Apr 04 01:11 |
| oiaohm | To solve incompadibly problems. | Apr 04 01:11 |
| oiaohm | Its a huge mother of a myth with no bases at all from a techical point of view this Linux incompadibly myth. | Apr 04 01:11 |
| schestowitz | Lots of apps get it right | Apr 04 01:12 |
| schestowitz | Past the myth | Apr 04 01:12 |
| schestowitz | googleearth is one example | Apr 04 01:12 |
| schestowitz | Finished apps that are properly packaged can work universally. | Apr 04 01:13 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: Skype for iphone does weird things | Apr 04 01:15 |
| Balrog_ | instead of acting like a regular app, it decrypts itself and replaces the binary with the decrypted one on load | Apr 04 01:16 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: yes, I heard it's bad | Apr 04 01:16 |
| schestowitz | If you combined two negatives you won't get a positive | Apr 04 01:17 |
| Balrog_ | this is more of an anti-hacking thing than drm | Apr 04 01:17 |
| Balrog_ | they don't want people reversing skype's protocols | Apr 04 01:17 |
| Balrog_ | apple's drm is very weak. Developers have been complaining. | Apr 04 01:18 |
| *schestowitz watches CMU talk.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTugjs... | Apr 04 01:19 | |
| _Hicham_1 | "The Google Earth Plugin is currently only available on Windows and Mac OS X 10.4+." That shows how much Google is into Linux | Apr 04 01:23 |
| schestowitz | Yes, it likes using it | Apr 04 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | schestowitz: which ODF plugin is preferred for Office 07? | Apr 04 01:24 |
| Balrog_ | then Sun one?? | Apr 04 01:24 |
| amarsh04 | CMU has an Adelaide college: www.cmu.edu.au | Apr 04 01:25 |
| oiaohm | DaemonFC: main reason for Linux standard base needing to embed the dynamic loader into the executable is so installers work. After application is installed dynamic loader can return to being a .so file. | Apr 04 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | CMU wrote this software, www.panopto.com, that does a good thing but using very bad software building blocks | Apr 04 01:25 |
| Balrog_ | Windows Media Player + Silverlight + .NET + PowerPoint | Apr 04 01:26 |
| _Hicham_1 | why not use plain VLC? | Apr 04 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | Because of multiple simultaneous streams. | Apr 04 01:28 |
| Balrog_ | (video streams) | Apr 04 01:28 |
| *amarsh04 notes that the photo used in CMU's web page for the Adelaide college shows that they want to portray a "long established" image | Apr 04 01:29 | |
| oiaohm | You have not been to Adelaide | Apr 04 01:30 |
| oiaohm | Its a very old looking city in lots of places amarsh04 | Apr 04 01:30 |
| _Hicham_1 | oiaohm : how old is Adelaide? | Apr 04 01:34 |
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| amarsh04 | err... oiaohm, I live in Adelaide | Apr 04 01:34 |
| oiaohm | Ok opps. | Apr 04 01:34 |
| amarsh04 | colony established Dec 28 1836, city area surveyed not long after that | Apr 04 01:34 |
| amarsh04 | a few buildings from around 1840 still exist | Apr 04 01:35 |
| oiaohm | Its the style of the place amarsh04 | Apr 04 01:35 |
| amarsh04 | town hall building was built around 1860 | Apr 04 01:35 |
| amarsh04 | the new buildings have a tendency to be incredibly ugly | Apr 04 01:36 |
| oiaohm | Brisbane new building are mostly square blocks. | Apr 04 01:36 |
| oiaohm | At least adelaide they do go to the effort when I was down there of not makign them completely look like that. | Apr 04 01:37 |
| amarsh04 | true, some new buildings are alright | Apr 04 01:37 |
| oiaohm | Adelaide to me has that more established fell. | Apr 04 01:38 |
| _Hicham_1 | http://upload.wikimedia.org/wik... , from this pic it looks good | Apr 04 01:38 |
| oiaohm | Compare to brisbane that fells like someone dump it together over night. | Apr 04 01:38 |
| oiaohm | And is trying to make it work. | Apr 04 01:38 |
| *amarsh04 clicks | Apr 04 01:38 | |
| amarsh04 | that's a view from the south | Apr 04 01:40 |
| oiaohm | I guess living there all the time you don't notice its established like feel amarsh04 | Apr 04 01:41 |
| schestowitz | Balrog: yes, the Sun ODF plugin | Apr 04 01:42 |
| Balrog_ | OK. | Apr 04 01:42 |
| Balrog_ | how do you discourage people from using Windows? | Apr 04 01:42 |
| Balrog_ | (at a school for example) | Apr 04 01:42 |
| oiaohm | You don't | Apr 04 01:42 |
| oiaohm | You instead get them using more and more programs that don't depend on windows. | Apr 04 01:43 |
| oiaohm | Until they start questioning why they are using windows. | Apr 04 01:43 |
| Balrog_ | they have MSDN-AA | Apr 04 01:44 |
| schestowitz | Or let them use Vista | Apr 04 01:44 |
| amarsh04 | true oiaohm | Apr 04 01:44 |
| amarsh04 | a few horror stories from windows users also help, and helpful application of linux-based data recovery tools | Apr 04 01:45 |
| _Hicham_1 | MSDN is hard to replace | Apr 04 01:46 |
| _Hicham_1 | maybe devhelp | Apr 04 01:46 |
| Balrog_ | the IT people don't like dealing with windows | Apr 04 01:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | but there is no devhelp for Windows | Apr 04 01:47 |
| Balrog_ | (I'm working with them) | Apr 04 01:47 |
| amarsh04 | a free old machine running linux well that couldn't run windows well also helps | Apr 04 01:47 |
| Balrog_ | I suggested changing the default bootloader setting | Apr 04 01:47 |
| _Hicham_1 | I like Anjuta, It is the Visual Studio of Gnome | Apr 04 01:47 |
| Balrog_ | interesting. | Apr 04 01:48 |
| _Hicham_1 | Anjuta offers almost anything in Visual Studio | Apr 04 01:48 |
| _Hicham_1 | Code Completion ( still in development ) | Apr 04 01:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | WYSIWYG Editor Plugin ( glade ) | Apr 04 01:49 |
| amarsh04 | at Flinders university I used jGrasp (www.jgrasp.org) as a cross-platform Java (and other language) ide | Apr 04 01:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | Powerful debugger ( with a valgrind plugin ) | Apr 04 01:49 |
| _Hicham_1 | and most of all, it is compatible with old school autoconf and automake | Apr 04 01:50 |
| Balrog_ | well, I'll start testing it and bring it up to the IT people, and probably the faculty | Apr 04 01:53 |
| Balrog_ | :) | Apr 04 01:53 |
| *oiaohm has quit (Remote closed the connection) | Apr 04 01:53 | |
| schestowitz | _Hicham_1: I love glade | Apr 04 02:14 |
| schestowitz | Anyway, gotta get some sleep | Apr 04 02:14 |
| _Hicham_1 | gn schestowitz | Apr 04 02:15 |
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| _Hicham_1 | DaemonFC : some new troll? | Apr 04 03:04 |
| DaemonFC | http://img22.imageshack.us/img2... | Apr 04 03:11 |
| DaemonFC | sure | Apr 04 03:11 |
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| oiaohm | I don't think MS has got it yet. Open Source works in waves. | Apr 04 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Defeat one wave and an another will come from a slightly different angle. | Apr 04 03:27 |
| oiaohm | Until they get it right. | Apr 04 03:27 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | well M$ is not the only problem impeding open anything: http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/Gimp... | Apr 04 03:30 |
| Carl_Rover2k12 | apparently AT&T Wireless loves to change their TOS as they go along in putting down any danger to their walled garden of redundant and overpriced services | Apr 04 03:31 |
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| DaemonFC | If the contract says they can change the contract without informing you | Apr 04 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | you've agreed to that | Apr 04 03:40 |
| DaemonFC | read what you sign | Apr 04 03:40 |
| _Hicham_ | great picture | Apr 04 03:41 |
| _Hicham_ | at least u come with sthg funny | Apr 04 03:41 |
| _Hicham_ | r u a troller by nature? | Apr 04 03:41 |
| DaemonFC | YOu're bitching about them being a business | Apr 04 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | I'm sure the lamb wants to complain he got screwed by the wolf | Apr 04 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | :) | Apr 04 03:42 |
| _Hicham_ | do u like MS way of doing things? | Apr 04 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | they make money however the construct of the LEGAL system allows | Apr 04 03:42 |
| DaemonFC | you would do the same thing | Apr 04 03:42 |
| _Hicham_ | how do u know? | Apr 04 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | to make $50 billion | Apr 04 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | you'd sell your own mother | Apr 04 03:43 |
| _Hicham_ | simply I won't | Apr 04 03:43 |
| _Hicham_ | some things are more valuable than money | Apr 04 03:43 |
| DaemonFC | Corporate money paying programmers capitalist wages to produce Linux makes Linux work | Apr 04 03:44 |
| DaemonFC | so if you don't want to be "infected" by the product of capitalism, stop using Linuxa | Apr 04 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | and go use HURD | Apr 04 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | I won't stop you | Apr 04 03:45 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux is not run by corporate money | Apr 04 03:45 |
| _Hicham_ | Linux kernel is independant | Apr 04 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | you are like those punk teenagers that listen to musicians singing fuck the system | Apr 04 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | for profit | Apr 04 03:45 |
| DaemonFC | to sell CDs and concert tickets | Apr 04 03:45 |
| _Hicham_ | no, it is not the same | Apr 04 03:46 |
| _Hicham_ | it is a matter of freedom | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | Linux might be independent in theory | Apr 04 03:46 |
| oiaohm | Linux operates so it allows companies to use it to make a profit. | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | but it couldn't survive without corporations | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | even kernel.org is a corporation | Apr 04 03:46 |
| oiaohm | In return those companies develop for it. | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | a non-profit maybe | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | but they get salaries | Apr 04 03:46 |
| oiaohm | HURD does not really work. | Apr 04 03:46 |
| DaemonFC | and that's really the same thing | Apr 04 03:46 |
| _Hicham_ | it begun without corporations | Apr 04 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | and it would still not work | Apr 04 03:47 |
| _Hicham_ | HURD is another project | Apr 04 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | if not for corporate effort | Apr 04 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | just like HURD | Apr 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Freertos is another now getting comerical support. | Apr 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | HURD never has cross the threshold of using useful. | Apr 04 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | there's nothing wrong with someone paying a programmer to work on Linux | Apr 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Freertos is one you most likely don't know about DaemonFC | Apr 04 03:47 |
| DaemonFC | it's their money | Apr 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Its used in the embeded world these days. | Apr 04 03:47 |
| oiaohm | Since its now usable for items sold for profit its getting developers. | Apr 04 03:48 |
| oiaohm | That is how it works. | Apr 04 03:48 |
| oiaohm | Comperical support is a after thing. | Apr 04 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | exactly, Linux is getting developed at the rate it is only because it's useful for companies who make money supporting it | Apr 04 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | so Linux is very much a product of capitalism | Apr 04 03:48 |
| DaemonFC | even if that was not the original intent | Apr 04 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Its still true to its original intent. | Apr 04 03:49 |
| oiaohm | Provide the needs of the people using it. | Apr 04 03:49 |
| oiaohm | If it happens to be commerical companies who decide to fund programmers so be it. | Apr 04 03:49 |
| DaemonFC | to the extent that it is GPL 2 licensed | Apr 04 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | perhaps | Apr 04 03:50 |
| oiaohm | GPL licence is the difference between Freebsd and Linux. | Apr 04 03:50 |
| oiaohm | Both could have become great OS's from there base. | Apr 04 03:50 |
| oiaohm | BSD does not require you to give back alterations. | Apr 04 03:50 |
| DaemonFC | BSD was sued by USL | Apr 04 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | and that prevented it from getting traction | Apr 04 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | Linux wasn't being sued, so companies went with that | Apr 04 03:51 |
| oiaohm | So has Linux been sued at different times. | Apr 04 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | not during the first years | Apr 04 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | when BSD was a real threat | Apr 04 03:51 |
| oiaohm | BSD major problem for traction is no requirement to give source code back. | Apr 04 03:51 |
| DaemonFC | the USL lawsuit is probably why we don't all use FreeBSD or something now | Apr 04 03:51 |
| oiaohm | So companies would take bsd make there own versions and that would be it. | Apr 04 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | no | Apr 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | No feed back. | Apr 04 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | there's no incentive for that | Apr 04 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | why fork it when you now have to maintain it yourself? | Apr 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | With Linux if you want to distribute you have to release source code. | Apr 04 03:52 |
| DaemonFC | the GPL is obsolete for that reason | Apr 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Ask Novell then. | Apr 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Large sections of there core OS was based off BSD. | Apr 04 03:52 |
| oiaohm | Same with a lot of other Unix clones. | Apr 04 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | If Linux was BSD licensed, Novell would not fork it | Apr 04 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | because they don't have the resources to sustain a fork | Apr 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | If Linux was BSD licence Novell would have. | Apr 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | Just like they did to BSD. | Apr 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | Sorry that is the way it is. | Apr 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | Many companies have been caught forking Linux against licence. | Apr 04 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | right, then I have to pay 100 times as many people to maintain it | Apr 04 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | when I could have jsut cooperated | Apr 04 03:53 |
| DaemonFC | and gotten all of that for free | Apr 04 03:53 |
| oiaohm | With the idea of not having to give there alterations back for vendor lock in. | Apr 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | You don't understand that problem. | Apr 04 03:54 |
| oiaohm | If you have the option between locking your customers in and not locking them in what path will you choose. | Apr 04 03:54 |
