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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: April 25th, 2009 - Part 1


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The_Mad_HatterI'm a cynical SOB, don't trust anyone.Apr 25 00:01
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seller_liarI was thinkingApr 25 00:42
seller_liarwe need to port gnome-do to pyhtonApr 25 00:42
schestowitzIs ti trivial?Apr 25 00:43
seller_liarbecause ubuntu someday can try to put gnome-doApr 25 00:44
schestowitzThere can't be much code there.Apr 25 00:44
schestowitzWhy not Katapult?Apr 25 00:44
seller_liarWe need change this ASAPApr 25 00:44
seller_liaris kde dependentApr 25 00:44
seller_liarwaitApr 25 00:44
seller_liarthere are gnome lauchboxApr 25 00:46
seller_liar 25 00:46
seller_liarbut is very oldApr 25 00:46
seller_liarbut we can continue the developmentApr 25 00:46
seller_liarseller_liar: butApr 25 00:50
seller_liarIf continue this development ,I will use new techniquesApr 25 00:51
seller_liarlike ctalk and aspect cApr 25 00:51
seller_liarProgramming in c is very slowApr 25 00:51
schestowitzhold onApr 25 00:51
seller_liarWe can deestroy gnome-doApr 25 00:51
schestowitzOKApr 25 00:53
schestowitzGot distractedApr 25 00:53
schestowitzJFK talk..Apr 25 00:53
schestowitz 25 00:53
schestowitzseller_liar: yes, better to override mono projectsApr 25 00:54
schestowitzYou can't extinguish patent trapsApr 25 00:54
schestowitzBut you can help keep them out of packagers of distros like UbuntuApr 25 00:54
schestowitzMore people should lobby for removal tooApr 25 00:54
schestowitzUsing TomTom as backing, tooApr 25 00:54
seller_liarschestowitz: Miguel and other mono people is in fury because he does not hear trtolls ,but they hears developersApr 25 00:55
schestowitzYes, I know.Apr 25 00:56
schestowitzKeep  the information comingApr 25 00:56
schestowitzPeople are not as stupid as Microsoft &turncoats need them beApr 25 00:56
seller_liarwhy jo shields is fan of moneApr 25 00:57
seller_liarwhy jo shields is fan of monoApr 25 00:57
seller_liarI never have seen such stupid people like directhexApr 25 00:58
schestowitzI don't know.Apr 25 00:59
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schestowitzI think they are too deep indenialApr 25 01:00
schestowitzSo even if the signs are on the wall (e.g. tomtom suit), they'll perfume as much as necessary their own choices to defend vested interests that developedApr 25 01:00
seller_liar_the big problem is mono is not default gnome apiApr 25 01:01
seller_liar_only c,c++ and python areApr 25 01:01
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seller_liar_novell de icaza tries to force mono to be another default api for gnomeApr 25 01:02
seller_liar_there are more mono apps than python appsApr 25 01:02
schestowitzNovell needs itApr 25 01:04
schestowitzMore leverage over GNU desktopApr 25 01:04
seller_liar_hell , this is a great problem in sponsored projectsApr 25 01:05
seller_liar_someday we will need to takedown gnomeApr 25 01:05
seller_liar_seller_liar_: but it's not a good solutionApr 25 01:07
schestowitzI've got to go to sleep nowApr 25 01:07
schestowitzseller_liar_: it's not a solutoon at allApr 25 01:07
seller_liar_schestowitz: ok , byeApr 25 01:07
schestowitzThey'll just poison something elseApr 25 01:07
schestowitzGet rid of the cdronieApr 25 01:07
schestowitzLike the Icaza who want to work for Microsoft,. fail,  and then start GNOMEApr 25 01:07
schestowitzOr Novell, whose board and menegement is filled with MS-sympathetic lackeysApr 25 01:07
schestowitzNovell is poison inside the Linux worldApr 25 01:08
schestowitzOrwalce remains tohave it real face shownApr 25 01:08
schestowitzgnApr 25 01:08
seller_liar_schestowitz: gnApr 25 01:08
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_Hicham_hi schestowitzApr 25 01:17
MinceRgnApr 25 01:18
_Hicham_no trolls in hereApr 25 01:18
_Hicham_?Apr 25 01:18
tessier_Did you check under the bridge?Apr 25 01:18
_Hicham_which bridge?Apr 25 01:19
tessier_The one the trolls live under.Apr 25 01:20
_Hicham_ha haApr 25 01:21
_Hicham_trolling is not that after allApr 25 01:21
_Hicham_it is not that badApr 25 01:22
*tessier_ serves up some nice warm trollhouse cookiesApr 25 01:26
seller_liar__Hicham_: What you talking about?Apr 25 01:29
_Hicham_sellar_liar : trolling from time to timeApr 25 01:29
seller_liar__Hicham_: No, I 'm not .Only sometimes I have nothing talk maybeApr 25 01:30
_Hicham_then trollApr 25 01:30
_Hicham_better than staying silentApr 25 01:30
seller_liar_Why am I trolling ?Apr 25 01:31
_Hicham_no, ur notApr 25 01:32
seller_liar__Hicham_: I'm not a troll ,What was trying to say is use mono alternatives or port mono appsApr 25 01:33
_Hicham_I never said that ur a trollApr 25 01:34
_Hicham_there is no mono alternative in LinuxApr 25 01:34
_Hicham_dotgnu is far from being completeApr 25 01:35
seller_liar__Hicham_: Mono some years ago was like dotgnuApr 25 01:35
seller_liar__Hicham_: We can promote dot gnuApr 25 01:35
_Hicham_why use .NET from the start?Apr 25 01:36
seller_liar__Hicham_: Don t try convince me .Try to convince all stupid people of worldApr 25 01:37
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mib_o7068cIt's possible to create a distro completely mono-free using py-gtk-,gtkmm and libboostApr 25 02:28
mib_o7068cPinot is a good alternative to Beagle and uses gtkmm and libboostApr 25 02:29
mib_o7068c 25 02:30
mib_o7068cDeluge uses py-gtk and libboostApr 25 02:30
mib_o7068cgnote uses gtkmm and uses libboost/Apr 25 02:30
mib_o7068cI have put a alternative of secondlife called CobaltApr 25 02:33
mib_o7068cCobalt is very powerful virtual world engine developed in Smalltalk(!)Apr 25 02:33
Balrogis Cobalt compatible with Second Life's engine?Apr 25 02:42
BalrogSmalltalk!?! What compiler are they using?Apr 25 02:43
mib_o7068cno, but this is a virtual worldApr 25 02:43
mib_o7068cand even better than second lifeApr 25 02:43
Balrogcool. Now get people to use it ;)Apr 25 02:43
Balrogwhat compiler?Apr 25 02:43
mib_o7068csqueak small talk is a smalltalk vm ,meta-circular and fastApr 25 02:43
mib_o7068call free softwareApr 25 02:43
mib_o7068ccobalt and squeak are weak copyleft free softwareApr 25 02:44
mib_o7068cwww.squeak.orgApr 25 02:44
mib_o7068cThe last replacemente what we need is.....a media player done in gtkApr 25 02:49
mib_o7068cWe need change some mono apps descriptionsApr 25 02:52
mib_o7068cWe put a licence description and put some criticismApr 25 02:52
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mib_o7068clook ,I have add some descriptions and criticism about bansheeApr 25 03:02
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Omar87schestowitz: I thought you were going to talk about Oracle's acquisition of Sun on BN, but you haven't. Why?Apr 25 03:18
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twitterSo ... I wonder who was dumb enough to buy M$FT at $21 per shareApr 25 03:54
oiaohm_LotsApr 25 03:55
twitterso much for so many 401K retirement plans.  ho ho, what a way to waste your money.Apr 25 03:56
oiaohm_Idea is that windows 7 will sellApr 25 03:57
oiaohm_  Maybe it will.Apr 25 03:57
oiaohm_Odds are against it.Apr 25 03:59
ushimitsudoki1That is quite clever of Microsoft. It addresses backwards-compatibility complaints and (naturally) introduces their virtualization solution to a bunch of home users who probably don't even know what virtualization is.Apr 25 04:00
ushimitsudoki1It does open up the question that if Win7 comes with a full-fledged version of WinXP, why not just stay with WinXP in the first place? But skipping one MS OS is one thing, but skipping two is a lot to expect from a company.Apr 25 04:01
twitterI don't think it will sell even as well as Vista did.  There are no channels left to stuff because all the retail partners failed on Vista stuffing.Apr 25 04:02
ushimitsudoki1I hope you are right. If Win7 is a flop like Vista, it will open the door for Linux (and Apple) that much wider. If, however, it comes off as a "comeback" release, it will slow down the adoption rate.Apr 25 04:03
twitterLOL, they are trying to sell Vista 7 by selling a VM copy of XP?  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.Apr 25 04:04
ushimitsudoki1Yup. It's actually clever of them I think. It accomplishes several things for MS at very little cost.Apr 25 04:05
oiaohm_Make computer maintainer ship in networks worse.Apr 25 04:05
twitterVery clever... here XP user, you can get XP that's better than XP in our VM.  Worked great for OS/2.Apr 25 04:06
oiaohm_They also want to stop people using downgrade rights.Apr 25 04:06
ushimitsudoki1At MPAA request, judge kicks public out of RealDVD court: (Judge says DVD encryption details are trade secrets and must be protected)Apr 25 04:06
twitterPeople who want to use a VM will just use Wine, Virtual Box or any of the other known good solutions.Apr 25 04:06
twitterWindows 7 is a terrible hostApr 25 04:07
ushimitsudoki1twitter: no they won't. that's the point. By stuffing MS's VM solutions, this allows them to introduce virtualization to a whole class of users for the first time.Apr 25 04:07
oiaohm_It also make the idea of running windows 7 in Virtual box seam more normal to window users.Apr 25 04:08
twitterXP users are not going to want to buy a new computer and new OS just so they can run the same old shit.Apr 25 04:08
ushimitsudoki1Being a terrible host is not important. It's bundling, just like like with media players and browsers.Apr 25 04:08
oiaohm_MS is really not thinking about what they are doing.Apr 25 04:08
twitteror most of the same old shit because you and I both know that it won't all run.Apr 25 04:08
oiaohm_Its also prep for next step.Apr 25 04:09 core OS.Apr 25 04:09
twitterThey won't be around long enough for that to happen.Apr 25 04:10
ushimitsudoki1MS has a *lot* of years in front of them.Apr 25 04:11
oiaohm_Depends what you call a lot.Apr 25 04:12
ushimitsudoki1At least 25 years.Apr 25 04:12
ushimitsudoki1At the absolute least.Apr 25 04:12
oiaohm_I would not say that long.Apr 25 04:13
EruaranI don't like mouldy sandwichesApr 25 04:13
EruaranThings can change fastApr 25 04:13
oiaohm_Secound wave of netbooks will show how strong MS real is.Apr 25 04:13
EruaranCorporations that one day appear unassailable, tomorrow are gone.Apr 25 04:13
oiaohm_Also it will depend if Orcale gets any ideas about the desktop too.Apr 25 04:14
ushimitsudoki1No they don't. For christ sakes, SCO and Enron are still around and they have done everything except drink koolaid in jonestown to try to kill theirselves off. Assuming MS *intentionally* decided to self-destruct, it would still take a decade for them to be reduced to insignificance.Apr 25 04:15
EruaranSCO is effectively gone. It is a shell.Apr 25 04:15
oiaohm_How much control does SCO have on market.Apr 25 04:15
oiaohm_None.Apr 25 04:15
oiaohm_SCO is basically having the crap pounded out of it to give fear to any other company with the dumb idea of attacking Linux.Apr 25 04:16
EruaranWhen I say "gone", it doesn't matter if the company technically still exists... they're gone in a very real sense.Apr 25 04:16
oiaohm_If SCO was not been made an example of someone would have aquired them and got rid of them that way.Apr 25 04:16
ushimitsudoki1They are still around and were a thousandth the size of MS and ten-thousand times as stupid. The point is that every small percentage of market share lost by Microsoft is a good victory. I think if people expect Microsoft to be reduced to irrelevancy in 5 years, they will be disappointed.Apr 25 04:16
EruaranThe bigger they are, the harder they fall.Apr 25 04:17
ushimitsudoki1It's about expectation management. If you have unrealistic goals, people will be disappointed.Apr 25 04:17
oiaohm_Apple was pushed from top of heap to irrelevency in 3.Apr 25 04:17
ushimitsudoki1Apple was never on the top of the heap. Ever.Apr 25 04:17
oiaohm_It was in media production ushimitsudoki1Apr 25 04:18
ushimitsudoki1[citation needed]Apr 25 04:18
EruaranApple once had 51% desktop market share.Apr 25 04:18
twitterApple dominated the early computing market.Apr 25 04:18
ushimitsudoki1[citation needed]Apr 25 04:18
twitterSee Apple I and IIApr 25 04:18
twitteralso see MacApr 25 04:18
twitterI remember them all.Apr 25 04:19
oiaohm_MS is the secound company dominate on the desktop.Apr 25 04:19
oiaohm_Not the first.Apr 25 04:19
twitterActually, M$ is the third.Apr 25 04:19
ushimitsudoki1Apple I had about 200 units produced. That is hardly massive market share.Apr 25 04:19
twitterIBM was the second.  M$ was a flunky along for the rideApr 25 04:19
ushimitsudoki1Please guys, keep the goals realistic.Apr 25 04:19
oiaohm_In desktop publishing Apple was dominate.Apr 25 04:19
oiaohm_3 years from being dominate in that field to basically nothing.Apr 25 04:20
oiaohm_It world can be savage.Apr 25 04:20
oiaohm_MS is a company at high risk.Apr 25 04:21
twitterM$ won't be here 20 years from now.Apr 25 04:21
ushimitsudoki1Apple I had about 200 machine. Apple II (the entire series from 1977-1993) about 5-6 million. You really want to stick to "Apple dominated the early computing market"?Apr 25 04:21
oiaohm_Almost all its competors theses days are in job production.Apr 25 04:21
twitterbuying M$FT is pure folly if you want something to retire on.Apr 25 04:21
oiaohm_Yes hardware production.Apr 25 04:21
oiaohm_Apple dominated a particular segment ushimitsudoki1Apr 25 04:22
ushimitsudoki1In comparison there were about 30 million Commodore64 machinesApr 25 04:22
ushimitsudoki1So, please.Apr 25 04:22
twitterCommodore64 was a gameApr 25 04:23
oiaohm_Is commodore any more either.Apr 25 04:23
twitterApple II was a computer as we know it.Apr 25 04:23
EruaranOh I had it wrong... the Amiga was bigger at one point :PApr 25 04:23
EruaranBut there's an example..Apr 25 04:24
oiaohm_Amiga we are only starting to catch up with some of its tech.Apr 25 04:24
EruaranWhat happened to Commodore...Apr 25 04:24
EruaranyesApr 25 04:24
oiaohm_Nothing is set in stone.Apr 25 04:24
oiaohm_MS location of dominance is not supported by being hardware producers these days.Apr 25 04:25
oiaohm_MS use to have Intel in there pocket.Apr 25 04:25
EruaranThe Amiga is one of my all time favorite computers... such a tragedy it was...Apr 25 04:25
twitterM$ is not supported by anything.Apr 25 04:25
oiaohm_Without hardware support no matter how good a OS is it will die.Apr 25 04:25
Eruaran<oiaohm_> MS location of dominance is not supported by being hardware producers these days. <-- Yes, this is a crucial point.Apr 25 04:26
ushimitsudoki1The point is that in no way at all could the Apple I or II be used as a an example of 51% market share or "dominating the early computer market". You can't just spit out random statistics and made-up facts.Apr 25 04:26
EruaranI already said I had that wrongApr 25 04:26
oiaohm_ushimitsudoki1: tell me how much netbook makers want to pay for a OS and Office suit.Apr 25 04:26
ushimitsudoki1oiaohm_: $0.Apr 25 04:27
oiaohm_Yep.Apr 25 04:27
oiaohm_They are hardware makers.   Can MS live on 0.Apr 25 04:27
ushimitsudoki1Nope.Apr 25 04:27
oiaohm_So MS has a problem.Apr 25 04:27
oiaohm_If they cannot solve it they could disappear quicky.Apr 25 04:28
ushimitsudoki1Yup. I'm not arguing that. MS has *lots* of problems. I'm just trying to make the point that it is unrealistic to expect MS to disappear next year or something like that. They have *enourmous* reserves and legacy users to rely on.Apr 25 04:28
EruaranThe days of obscene profits for Microsoft are gone.Apr 25 04:28
oiaohm_Problem here is Orcale spends 10 billion a year aquiring companies.Apr 25 04:29
EruaranNever said anything like "the next year"Apr 25 04:29
oiaohm_MS could come a risk of a hostile take over in the next 5 years.Apr 25 04:29
EruaranBut the biggest corps can fall and become irrelevant faster than you would expect.Apr 25 04:29
ushimitsudoki1How long would you expect it to take MS to become irrelvant then?Apr 25 04:29
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EruaranNo idea.Apr 25 04:30
oiaohm_MS could be irrelvant in under 2 years.Apr 25 04:30
ushimitsudokiNo way.Apr 25 04:30
ushimitsudokiThat is not possible.Apr 25 04:30
oiaohm_Yes way.Apr 25 04:30
twitterM$ is already irrelevantApr 25 04:30
twitterVista failed.Apr 25 04:30
twitterWindows 7 is failure part 2Apr 25 04:30
oiaohm_Market is moving away from x86 processors.Apr 25 04:31
oiaohm_Windows only runs on x86 processors.Apr 25 04:31
oiaohm_So its platform is gone.Apr 25 04:31
ushimitsudokiYou seriously think MS is *already* irrelevant? Seriously?Apr 25 04:31
EruaranYou have an entire market struggling to get out from under Microsoft's thumb, and what Microsoft is doing to maintain the appearance of domination is not sustainable.Apr 25 04:31
ushimitsudokiRight now, Microsoft is *irrelevant* in the computer industry?Apr 25 04:31
EruaranThe old tactics aren't sustainable any more.Apr 25 04:31
oiaohm_OS without hardware becomes completely irrelevant really quickly.Apr 25 04:31
twitterLike someone else pointed out, by the time M$ makes Windows 7 work on $400 netbooks, Ubuntu will be flooding the market with $200 ARM netbooks.Apr 25 04:32
twitterIt's game over.Apr 25 04:32
oiaohm_ARM is aiming for 100 dollars.Apr 25 04:32
EruaranThe only thing that can save Microsoft into the future is a shareholder revolt and a serious changing of the guard at the top.Apr 25 04:32
oiaohm_MIPS and ARM are both going to battle in that market too.Apr 25 04:32
ushimitsudokiEruaran: Yes, I agree completely that if MS continues current or past tactics they will fade ever quicker.Apr 25 04:32
twitterNo one is writing software for Vista.Apr 25 04:33
twitterThere are actually more commercial GNU/Linux programmers than there are Vista programmers.Apr 25 04:33
ushimitsudokiBut at the same time it is foolish to say things like MS will be irrelevant in 2 years or is already irrelevant. That is wishful thinking *at best*, and unrealistic. You can't defeat an enemy without a *realistic* assessment of them.Apr 25 04:34
oiaohm_MS though they had until 2012 to get a cross processor OS out.Apr 25 04:34
oiaohm_We are 5 years in ushimitsudoki to MS becoming irrelevant.Apr 25 04:35
EruaranThe market is changing. The best positioned OS now is the one that runs on the most architectures.Apr 25 04:35
twitterMy assessment of Windows could not be more realistic.  It sucks.Apr 25 04:35
twitterI don't need it.Apr 25 04:35
twitterNo one needs it.Apr 25 04:35
ushimitsudokiYes they do. Many companies need it. If you do business with the US government you need it. You can't just wipe away reality like that.Apr 25 04:35
twitterBullshit.Apr 25 04:36
oiaohm_Do you need windows if wine works ushimitsudokiApr 25 04:36
oiaohm_Simple fact no.Apr 25 04:36
twitterYou don't need Windows to do business with anyone.Apr 25 04:36
twitterAll you need is money.Apr 25 04:36
twittergoods and services.Apr 25 04:36
ushimitsudokiI am a government contractor. Believe me when I tell you you need Windows. Wine will not do it. I have to keep WinXP in VirtualBox. There is no alternative.Apr 25 04:36
oiaohm_At this time yes ushimitsudokiApr 25 04:36
ushimitsudokiIt's not fair that MS technology is required, but you can't just dismiss it, either.Apr 25 04:36
oiaohm_What MS tech is required.Apr 25 04:37
twitterWhat government agency is so stupidApr 25 04:37
twitter?Apr 25 04:37
ushimitsudokiMany are, would you like a very specific example?Apr 25 04:37
twitterThat's the question I askedApr 25 04:37
oiaohm_USA is also behind where lots of the rest of world are.Apr 25 04:37
oiaohm_Lot of goverments are untied from MS tech.Apr 25 04:38
ushimitsudokiThe GSA has an online site where you must submit items to an online catalog. This is a contracting requirement. They provide the software (SIP). It is windows only. It will not run in Wine.Apr 25 04:38
oiaohm_What percentage of the world would this effect.Apr 25 04:38
ushimitsudokiThere are a ton of little shit applications like this, where the use is *mandated* and the software only runs on Windows.Apr 25 04:39
oiaohm_Solutions like also provides ways out of that.Apr 25 04:39
oiaohm_So desktops run Linux network virtual machine to interface with crap.Apr 25 04:39
ushimitsudokiI just said I use VirtualBox.Apr 25 04:39
ushimitsudokiYou still have to have Windows somewhere.Apr 25 04:39
oiaohm_Very small ammount.Apr 25 04:39
oiaohm_Reduced to like under 1 percent when apple was call not important.Apr 25 04:40
oiaohm_That 1 percent could also been cleaned up by reactos.Apr 25 04:40
oiaohm_So leaving nothing for MS at all.Apr 25 04:40
ushimitsudokiHere is another Goverment example. Many goverment IT jobs require A+, Security+ and/or Network+. As you know these are largely MS-orientated certifications.Apr 25 04:40
ushimitsudokiBut these are *requirements* by the governement. There isn't any getting around them. You just shut up and get certified.Apr 25 04:41
oiaohm_Reactos clone of windows ushimitsudokiApr 25 04:41
oiaohm_FOSS has not been planing a 1 sided attack.Apr 25 04:42
EruaranWe deal with government (mainly education) fairly regularlyApr 25 04:42
EruaranNo certs requiredApr 25 04:42
twitterChange is coming to the US government.  A mac user is in the White House.Apr 25 04:42
oiaohm_In 2 years MS could be against the wall being shot.Apr 25 04:43
oiaohm_2010 secound wave downturn is going to force a lot of goverments to re think there MS costs.Apr 25 04:43
twitterThey are already up against what amounts to a boycottApr 25 04:43
twitterno one is buying their crapApr 25 04:43
ushimitsudokiIt is DoD 8570.01-M that lists the cert requirements by the government.Apr 25 04:44
EruaranI think things may soon get tougher for Microsoft in Europe... the EC has some interesting reading material at its desposal right now.Apr 25 04:44
oiaohm_ushimitsudoki: they might now.Apr 25 04:44
oiaohm_2010 is going to make 2008 downturn look like a walk in the park.Apr 25 04:44
Eruaran*disposalApr 25 04:44
ushimitsudokiI'm trying to make a point that MS is *required* for some business and government work. I said it before and someone called "Bullshit" on me.Apr 25 04:45
oiaohm_Companies simple will not be able to aford MS Windows.Apr 25 04:45
oiaohm_MS is not required.Apr 25 04:45
ushimitsudokiIt is bullshit that it is required, but that is the way it is.Apr 25 04:45
oiaohm_There are solutions to avoid it.Apr 25 04:45
twitterno, it's not the way it is.Apr 25 04:45
oiaohm_Ok not complete at this stage but should complete in the next 2 years.Apr 25 04:45
twitterit's the way some idiots think it is.Apr 25 04:45
ushimitsudokiYes it fucking is. I just pointed the goddamn regulations out to you. You can not do business with the US goverment with out using some MS technology.Apr 25 04:46
oiaohm_So effectively makeing all that MS requirement crap.Apr 25 04:46
twitterI don't do that kind of businessApr 25 04:46
twitterbut I think you could do it with one idiot box in the cornerApr 25 04:46
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oiaohm_ushimitsudoki: if you can run the needed programs would you need MS.Apr 25 04:46
oiaohm_Answer no.Apr 25 04:47
twitterThe rest of your business could be liberated.Apr 25 04:47
twitterThe sooner you liberate the things you can, the better off you areApr 25 04:47
ushimitsudokiSo, every government contractor will just stop doing business with the government? Again, I'm trying to tell you to take a realistic view on things. It is not realistic just to wave your hands and declare MS "irrelevant". It is something that needs to be worked towards, and will take a long time and a lot of effort.Apr 25 04:47
oiaohm_No contractors use other tech.Apr 25 04:47
oiaohm_That allows them to do business with USA without needing MS.Apr 25 04:48
oiaohm_That is what is on the time table for 2010.Apr 25 04:48
oiaohm_MS could be 100 percent irrelevant in 2 years.Apr 25 04:48
oiaohm_As long as tech is delived on time table.Apr 25 04:49
ushimitsudoki"could be" in the same sense as I "could be" the king of england and just not know it? Or "could be" in the sense of things that could reasonably be expected?Apr 25 04:49
oiaohm_It could be reasonably expected.Apr 25 04:49
twitterIt's perfectly realistic to limit your use of Windows to one or two required ass pains.Apr 25 04:50
oiaohm_Untils something happens to cause a delay it will be ready in 2 years.Apr 25 04:50
twitterthe vast majority of your emplyoees don't need the troubleApr 25 04:50
ushimitsudokitwitter: very true. that is exactly what I do.Apr 25 04:50
twitterSo, realistically, the vast majority of Windows is unneededApr 25 04:51
oiaohm_Cost cutting will force the unneeded to be removed.Apr 25 04:51
ushimitsudokitwitter: yes, but that needs a little discussion tooApr 25 04:51
twitterThat means that M$ is already irrelevantApr 25 04:51
twitterIf you don't need it and it's expensive, it's over.Apr 25 04:52
oiaohm_Problem here is MS need a min proft point to maintain there OS.Apr 25 04:52
ushimitsudokiFor example, if the majority of IT people (sys admins, CIOs, etc) were dedicated to relegating Windows to only what was absolutely needed, and putting say Linux on everything else, it would be one thing.Apr 25 04:52
oiaohm_If MS drops to less than 1 percent of market they will have trouble.Apr 25 04:53
twitterM$ already has lost the ability to maintain and improve their OS.Apr 25 04:53
oiaohm_So just using Windows where is absolutely need is killing MS.Apr 25 04:53
ushimitsudokiHowever, that's not a realistic picture of how most IT people are. Sadly, most IT people *only* know Windows, and don't really understand anything at all about computers or networking or whatever. They just know to click a button. These people are not likely to start *reducing* dependence on Microsoft, *unless* Linux offers superior alternatives (superior here can mean many things)Apr 25 04:54
oiaohm_Majority in a world sence are going that way ushimitsudokiApr 25 04:54
ushimitsudokiAnd, in order to offer "superior" alternatives, we must take realistic stock of what MS currently offers, so that a better alternative can be presented.Apr 25 04:54
oiaohm_USA is on the outer edges.Apr 25 04:54
oiaohm_Its like netbooks.Apr 25 04:55
ushimitsudokiI hope I am making a point here that is understandable?Apr 25 04:55
oiaohm_Linux based netbooks barely sell in the usa.Apr 25 04:55
oiaohm_Some other countries linux netbooks are over 80 percent of the market.Apr 25 04:55
twitterGNU/Linux already offers vastly superior alternatives to most M$ stuffApr 25 04:55
oiaohm_USA is behind.Apr 25 04:55
twitterthe only problem are niche applications, but even those are falling away.Apr 25 04:56
oiaohm_Why does a alternative has to be superiorApr 25 04:56
oiaohm_That is a USA stupidity.Apr 25 04:56
oiaohm_alternative only has to be good enough.Apr 25 04:56
ushimitsudokitwitter: I think so - but convincing windows-monkeys of that is difficult. But, no matter how frustrating, it is necessary. You have to convert people by convincing them, not by berating or ridiculing them.Apr 25 04:56
twittergood enough is not good enough if it costs more.  GNU/Linux is both better and cheaper.Apr 25 04:57
twitterWho's ridiculing anyone?Apr 25 04:57
ushimitsudokiIt is not a "USA stupidity". It is simple logic: people will not change for no advantage, because simply changing has costs. Therefore the alternative must offer some advantage worth the costs of the change.Apr 25 04:57
twitterSmears and insults are what M$ dishes out through paid mouthpiecesApr 25 04:57
oiaohm_Good enough function wise.Apr 25 04:58
oiaohm_Lower cost over all.Apr 25 04:58
ushimitsudokiHence, Linux must be superior is some way. Be that cost, ideals, technology or whatever issue appeal to the current user.Apr 25 04:58
oiaohm_Usa wants superior function.Apr 25 04:58
oiaohm_So more wasteful.Apr 25 04:58
oiaohm_Its like using a sledge hammer when a tack hammer would do.Apr 25 04:58
twitterGNU/Linux is superior on all levels.  Ease of use, comfort, stability, security and cost.Apr 25 04:58
ushimitsudokiI think so. Why doesn't everyone else?Apr 25 04:59
oiaohm_It depends where you are.Apr 25 04:59
twitterPeople are ignorant, mislead by sell outs like DellApr 25 04:59
twitterThis is not something that will last long.Apr 25 05:00
ushimitsudokiWell, there is some of that, sure. Marketing and propoganda play an important role.Apr 25 05:00
oiaohm_And product dumping.Apr 25 05:00
twitterIn fact, M$ brand is so shit now that people are willing to moveApr 25 05:00
ushimitsudokiSomething that MS used to be *very* good at, but has stumbled a lot on lately.Apr 25 05:00
oiaohm_Here schools free copys of MS stuff.Apr 25 05:00
oiaohm_So that is all your students know.Apr 25 05:00
twitterPlansmodeon noted that none of the dirty tricks work if the product is not solid.Apr 25 05:00
oiaohm_So they don't know that word processers bar word exists.Apr 25 05:01
oiaohm_Train them to fear anything different.Apr 25 05:01
oiaohm_Nice market lock in.Apr 25 05:01
ushimitsudokiWindows is "solid enough" that they can get by on dirty tricks, I think that's self-evident. Windows surely has not gotten its market share based on tecnological superiority.Apr 25 05:01
oiaohm_ushimitsudoki: MS is stumbling because it has compeition.Apr 25 05:01
oiaohm_Competition not playing fair.Apr 25 05:02
ushimitsudokiMS is stumbling because they are *wrong*.Apr 25 05:02
oiaohm_We are 0 dollars so we force you to fight self.Apr 25 05:02
oiaohm_so stuffing your self up.Apr 25 05:02
ushimitsudokiThe product is inferior, the tactics illegal and/or offensive, the vision misguided and unwanted by the market.Apr 25 05:03
twitterThere is nothing wrong with sharing free softwareApr 25 05:03
oiaohm_In the past XP would have just been sent to the scrap heap.Apr 25 05:03
oiaohm_and users would have been force to upgrade.Apr 25 05:03
oiaohm_Linux blocked that cycle.Apr 25 05:03
oiaohm_So sending MS into there current dooms day events.Apr 25 05:03
twitterM$ needed 4 years for XP to gain 50% shareApr 25 05:03
oiaohm_There is no clean way out for MS.Apr 25 05:03
ushimitsudokiMS is not in a dooms day event. They are *vulnerable* and could just as well come out the other end stronger than they came into it.Apr 25 05:04
twitterEach new version of Windows has been met with more resistance than the last.Apr 25 05:04
twitterM$ is in a death spiral.Apr 25 05:04
oiaohm_No its doom day.Apr 25 05:04
oiaohm_Linux is not moving from 0 dollar price tag.Apr 25 05:04
twitterThey can't keep up and had to fire people, so they are even less capable of keeping up.Apr 25 05:05
oiaohm_So MS will be forced closer and closer to that.Apr 25 05:05
oiaohm_Until they impolde.Apr 25 05:05
ushimitsudokiI think that is wishful thinking. MS is in a bad spot and vulnerable, but better management could do wonders for them. We are very lucky in that sense that Ballmer and Co are in charge.Apr 25 05:05
oiaohm_NoApr 25 05:05
oiaohm_Netbook makers have been constanally lowing the price they will pay.Apr 25 05:05
oiaohm_With nettop makers enter the game as well.Apr 25 05:06
oiaohm_MS is in real trouble.Apr 25 05:06
twitterBallmer, lucky?  LOLApr 25 05:06
ushimitsudokiYes they are in trouble. No that doesn't automatically mean a "doomsday" or "death spiral".Apr 25 05:06
oiaohm_No matter the management MS takes on you can only take from a market what they will pay.Apr 25 05:06
oiaohm_Price netbook markers want is 0.Apr 25 05:06
oiaohm_How is MS going to get there.Apr 25 05:07
ushimitsudokiYes, ballmer is lucky for US. Because he is incompentantApr 25 05:07
twitterExplain how they can compete when the best they can come up with is crap like Vista?Apr 25 05:07
ushimitsudokiImagine MS led by a much better CEO, but with the same goals as Ballmer. That is scary to me.Apr 25 05:07
oiaohm_Linux gets it money out the hardware side.Apr 25 05:07
oiaohm_Not the software side.Apr 25 05:07
oiaohm_So every machine aquired is paying for Linux.Apr 25 05:07
oiaohm_If it has Linux on it or not.Apr 25 05:08
twitterTheir business model tried to include a marriage with Old Media.  They betrayed their real customers for industries that are dying.Apr 25 05:08
oiaohm_Linux copied how MS got dominate in the first place.Apr 25 05:08
oiaohm_MS better CEO will not solve problem.Apr 25 05:09
oiaohm_Hardware companies have turned on MS.Apr 25 05:09
ushimitsudokiDo you see what I mean when I say Ballmer is lucky for Linux? Only an idiot like Ballmer would call out Linux users as "cancers" and so forth. A smarter man would just be quiet and play along with Open Source, and try to hurt it from the inside. In fact, I would say that is very much what MS is moving towards.Apr 25 05:09
oiaohm_No ballmer has nothing to do with the problem.Apr 25 05:10
oiaohm_It the eee pc that started it all.Apr 25 05:10
ushimitsudokiOh, Ballmer, the CEO of Microsoft has *nothing* to do with anything?Apr 25 05:10
oiaohm_Proff to hardware markers that a item with a Linux OS could sell in massive numbers.Apr 25 05:10
oiaohm_So causing hardware markers to apply presure to MS.Apr 25 05:11
twitterM$ would like to coopt and corrupt free software the same way they did older free software but it's not working out.  People have realized the game and are using copyleft for protection.Apr 25 05:11
oiaohm_MS realy does not have anything to make hardware makers back off.Apr 25 05:11
twitterEven the best CEO would not be able to reform M$.Apr 25 05:11
ushimitsudokitwitter: To some degree yes, but also look at all the people that support say mono and moonlight. It's really still up in the air I thinkApr 25 05:11
twitterIf by "up in the air" you mean "without support", I agreeApr 25 05:12
oiaohm_There is a equally large anti mono and moonlight camp.Apr 25 05:12
oiaohm_Including a group recoding .net applciations back to native.Apr 25 05:12
oiaohm_In importances mono and moonlight is nothing.Apr 25 05:12
twitterApple has been better at exploiting free software than M$, this is why Apple is almost as large as M$ is these days.Apr 25 05:12
ushimitsudokiNo, I mean some people - for whatever reason - seem to want to welcome MS into Open Source. I guess they think it is a sign of "winning" or something? That is worrying to me, because I expect MS to fail, and when MS fails I expect them to do as much collateral damage as they can on the way down.Apr 25 05:13
twitterM$ has always been welcome to the free software world.Apr 25 05:13
twitterThey just never go there.Apr 25 05:13
oiaohm_Open Source world would glady embrace and extend MS.Apr 25 05:14
twitterIt would be just fine for M$ to GPL windowsApr 25 05:14
twitterBut M$ would not enjoy it's monopoly rents that way ...Apr 25 05:14
oiaohm_Open source want to embrace windows is not a nice thing.Apr 25 05:14
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schestowitzovert Actions Against American Citizens Living in America < >Apr 25 08:20
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schestowitzMicrosoft just PULLED the surface reviewApr 25 09:09
schestowitzIt gives a 404Apr 25 09:09
schestowitzThe guy says Microsoft contacted himApr 25 09:09
schestowitzI call it censorshipApr 25 09:09
schestowitzThey police coverage about their products.Apr 25 09:10
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trmancofinally, a non biased review? -> 25 09:33
schestowitztrmanco: yesApr 25 09:40
schestowitzLots of comments for a CW articleApr 25 09:40
schestowitzMS will unleash some TurfersApr 25 09:40
schestowitzOr business partnersApr 25 09:40
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schestowitzSJVN told me he'd writer about AstroTurfing, but he hasn't yet.Apr 25 09:41
trmancogoodApr 25 09:41
trmancobut will CW permit that?Apr 25 09:41
Omar87So, what exactly is the idea of this post: ?Apr 25 09:47
schestowitzMicrosoft is doing it again. It censors negative reviews of its products: 25 09:47
schestowitztrmanco: he's probably pressured by CW (IDG)Apr 25 09:48
schestowitzWalking on a tight ropeApr 25 09:48
schestowitzOmar87: it's satireApr 25 09:48
schestowitzVery funny. I know the guy who wrote itApr 25 09:48
schestowitzHe also borrows some ideas from BN. Like "overshadowing" Ubuntu's releaseApr 25 09:49
Omar87schestowitz: You mean he's just joking around?Apr 25 09:49
schestowitzThe future does not look too good for Microsoft and GNU/Linux is a major problem to it: 25 09:49
schestowitzOmar87: yes, the whole blog is satireApr 25 09:49
schestowitzIt's called "NotNews"Apr 25 09:49
Omar87schestowitz: Oh, I see. lol! :)Apr 25 09:50
trmanco>> Microsoft Corporation (NASDAQ: MNPLY)Apr 25 09:50
trmancoheheApr 25 09:50
Omar87schestowitz: LOL, but 'Not' "NotNews" also means something else (Stands for "New of the").Apr 25 09:51
Omar87'Not' *in* "NotNews"...Apr 25 09:52
schestowitzMicrosoft is trying to embrace and 'extend' open source and odf: 25 10:38
ushimitsudoki1There's something I haven't quite figured out yet. I don't understand why Microsoft is hyping up PHP so much when it trots out it "open source friendly" propaganda. Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there, but it seems to be they *really* love mentioning PHP, and I'm just not quite sure why?Apr 25 10:55
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schestowitzushimitsudoki1: yes, the deal with ZendApr 25 11:04
schestowitzThey also pretend it is so more lovelier on WindowsApr 25 11:04
schestowitzBut Zend says 95% deploy on Linux! :-)Apr 25 11:04
schestowitzIs Ubuntu Bigger than Debian now? < >Apr 25 11:04
ushimitsudoki1Something about it bothers me, but I'm not sure. I mean they aren't hyping Javascript / Python / Perl and so on. Why the special attention to PHP? Anyway, just something I've been noticing lately.Apr 25 11:06
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schestowitzMaybe the others are powerful?Apr 25 11:15
schestowitzHow much of PHP does Google use?Apr 25 11:15
ushimitsudoki1Good question. I think Google is more a python shop, but that's just what I recall reading. I don't know specifics.Apr 25 11:17
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schestowitzushimitsudoki1: can you think of examples?Apr 25 11:18
schestowitzOther than one's Google buys?Apr 25 11:18
schestowitz(Not homebred)Apr 25 11:18
schestowitznew remark from the Microsoft blog in ZDNet: "Sounds like one more way to help migrate from linux to Microsoft Windows. If this is implemented pulling data from a linux server will be that much easier until the server is no longer needed. I'm liking this interoperability."Apr 25 11:18
schestowitz 25 11:18
ushimitsudoki1 :At Google, python is one of the 3 "official languages" alongside with C++ and Java.€  Official here means that Googlers are allowed to deploy these languages to production services.€  (Internally Google people use many technologies including PHP, C#, Ruby and Perl).€  Python is well suited to the engineering process at Google.€ Apr 25 11:19
ushimitsudoki1Again, this is just the sort of stuff I recall reading about in the past.Apr 25 11:19
oiaohmschestowitz: ubuntu is working on a mirror to rip data out of a windows server.Apr 25 11:21
oiaohmNow of orcale works on that MS has some problems.Apr 25 11:21
schestowitzWow. 25 11:23
schestowitzit's mixed with BSApr 25 11:24
schestowitzBut the opening part about Kuwait is interesting.Apr 25 11:24
schestowitzI guess it's too old for people to remember.Apr 25 11:24
oiaohmIts not new.Apr 25 11:34
schestowitzIt is to me.Apr 25 11:35
schestowitzYikes. <a href=" m/usubmit/-toby-richards-f..." title="Apr 25 11:37
schestowitzOops.Apr 25 11:37
schestowitz 25 11:37
oiaohmHoward here is out of power for attempting the same thing here schestowitzApr 25 11:39
oiaohmChildren over board stunt.Apr 25 11:40
oiaohmUSA media seams not to go asking questions enough.Apr 25 11:40
schestowitzOf course notApr 25 11:47
schestowitzThey agree (by their own admission) to collaboration with the NSAApr 25 11:47
schestowitzYou see publisher and editors saying thisApr 25 11:47
schestowitzIt's a form of fascism in the press. The state controls it. At least the parts that matter and reach audienceApr 25 11:47
oiaohmAustralian media companies get into trouble with the goverment all the time.Apr 25 11:48
oiaohmOnly way to keep them out of something is basically threaten to kill them.Apr 25 11:49
oiaohm  Yes by by DRI 1 .Apr 25 11:50
schestowitzMy issue is not with this behaviourApr 25 11:51
schestowitzNot as much as them pretending that it ain't happeningApr 25 11:52
schestowitzLikely, when it comes to sites like BN, it's important to show how things workApr 25 11:52
schestowitzLike analysts being bribed to say thingsApr 25 11:52
schestowitzAnd Microsoft rewarding journalists in all sorts of wayApr 25 11:52
schestowitz*waysApr 25 11:52
schestowitzA lot of people are tamed to have blind faithApr 25 11:52
oiaohmMicrosoft world is coming apart.Apr 25 11:52
schestowitzoiaohm: I look beyond itApr 25 11:59
schestowitzAdobe, Google, IBM, now Oracle..Apr 25 11:59
schestowitzit's an endless battleApr 25 11:59
schestowitzAnd it can get worse, tooApr 25 11:59
schestowitzApple is abusive for exampleApr 25 11:59
schestowitzLook at all the struggles for rights over the years being smashed in Bush&Blair yearsApr 25 12:00
schestowitzYou end up with Stasi nations.Apr 25 12:00
schestowitzIn the name of so-called security, which is poor because of the very same approach that supposedly protects itApr 25 12:00
schestowitzA self-fulfilling prophecy if you like. Attack the (mostly) innocent, then claim that "they hate us"Apr 25 12:01
oiaohmIBM and Oracle will kind keep each other in check.Apr 25 12:02
oiaohmAs they get into a full out competition war with each other.Apr 25 12:02
oiaohmGoogle tries hard to do good.   Really I don't know what is worse.Apr 25 12:03
oiaohmA company trying to be good.  Or a company trying to be evil.Apr 25 12:04
oiaohmThe one that is trying to be evil you know more what kind of harm it will hit you with.Apr 25 12:04
oiaohmTo be correct IBM HP and Oracle will keep each other in check.Apr 25 12:05
schestowitzYes, good points, but..Apr 25 12:07
schestowitzTo do good is a subjective thingApr 25 12:07
schestowitzThey also do good... for shareholdersApr 25 12:07
schestowitzThey also do good... for spies (Google gives data)Apr 25 12:07
schestowitzThey also do good... for America (at the expense of other nation)Apr 25 12:07
schestowitzSo "Good" means all sorts of thingsApr 25 12:07
schestowitzMicrosoft would say, we make "Good" softwareApr 25 12:07
oiaohmThat is the problem for google.Apr 25 12:08
oiaohmThere is no solid define of good.Apr 25 12:08
ushimitsudoki1I have some questions on moonlight: 25 12:09

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