Bonum Certa Men Certa

Case Study: The Harms of Mono

The following chat took place 2 hours ago. Someone who goes by the name "IsBob" shared his story. Here are the unedited logs, which are hopefully as self-explanatory as they need be.

*IsBob () has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:01
splosionhttps://www.furk.net/ hereJun 16 11:01
IsBobhi thereJun 16 11:01
DaemonMDVyou know that Ubuntu has used a DMCA Take Down order once?Jun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVironically it was used against the MPAAJun 16 11:02
DaemonMDVso I'm all for itJun 16 11:02
*fewa has quit (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))Jun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVthe MPAA was distributing a "University anti-piracy toolkit" which used Xubuntu as its baseJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVin violation of the GPLJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVso Ubuntu ordered them to remove it from their siteJun 16 11:03
DaemonMDVwhich they didJun 16 11:03
IsBobI’m looking for some adviceJun 16 11:04
IsBobmy boss asked me (not directly of course) to make some public statements about MonoJun 16 11:04
IsBobwe’re in a deal with Microsoft currentlyJun 16 11:04
IsBobthe idea is to help a client migrate from Mono to pure .NETJun 16 11:05
IsBoband well, they found the ongoing fuss about Mono is not helping our company’s imageJun 16 11:05
IsBobthe fact is, I'm not comfortable with doing such thingsJun 16 11:06
schestowitzHi, IsBob Jun 16 11:06
schestowitzWhat advice do you need?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzAnd how do I know that you're not pulling our leg?Jun 16 11:07
IsBobhuh?Jun 16 11:07
schestowitzWe've been trolled a lot recentlyJun 16 11:07
IsBobMy problem is, I'm in an untenable position nowJun 16 11:07
schestowitzSo I am being cautiousJun 16 11:07
schestowitzA company using Mono does not have a problemJun 16 11:08
IsBobI've made some public statements about Mono and how Microsoft intends to use itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot in the sense of public imageJun 16 11:08
schestowitzThe issue is with packagers who want to force people to spread itJun 16 11:08
schestowitzNot with usersJun 16 11:08
IsBoband now, either I have to rescind them, or I risk being in a very bad position with my managementJun 16 11:08
*mib_q79ffb has quit ("http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client")Jun 16 11:08
schestowitzMicrosoft spreads its APIJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is good for MicrosoftJun 16 11:09
schestowitzFor more than one reasonJun 16 11:09
IsBobI know all of that, I've seen it from the insideJun 16 11:09
schestowitzit is preferable to use Java, Python, Perl, CGI, etc.Jun 16 11:09
schestowitzDepending on the area of useJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMono is about monocultureJun 16 11:09
schestowitzMaking all enterprise do it the One Microsoft WayJun 16 11:10
schestowitzc#, AD, VS, XAML, erc.Jun 16 11:10
schestowitz*etcJun 16 11:10
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:10
schestowitzHi, oiaohm Jun 16 11:12
IsBobschestowitz: I've tried to explain that to my management; we used to have our clients work on free software, and now we're stuck in a deal where we're making them migrate awayJun 16 11:14
oiaohmHi schestowitzJun 16 11:15
schestowitzIsBob: how deep is this dependency on Mono?Jun 16 11:16
*Tallken (n=f2f93bf5@2001:690:2380:7770:21b:24ff:fed0:3f98) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:17
schestowitzIf it's some C# code, then you can still port to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzOracle is very committed to JavaJun 16 11:17
schestowitzIt's one of the main reasons for oracle buying SUN. I read last year that Ellison wanted to rip .NET apartJun 16 11:17
IsBobthere are 500 kloc already, it's way too late to migrate to another languageJun 16 11:18
schestowitzOracle is about as big as Microsoft and its market cap is not muchly shy. In fact, Oracle just deliberately spends a lot less on marketing...Jun 16 11:18
IsBobbut anyway, that's not my problem right nowJun 16 11:18
schestowitzIsBob: what's running it? Mono?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono is a ramp for VS+.NET adoptionJun 16 11:19
schestowitzMono too slow?Jun 16 11:19
schestowitzMigrate to .NETJun 16 11:19
schestowitzLike free supperJun 16 11:19
IsBobcurrently Mono, and we're migrating to .Net yesJun 16 11:19
schestowitzOr trial versionwareJun 16 11:19
*mib_v1wqax (i=4e965300@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-facdafd52c83c84f) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:19
schestowitzOracle might do something similar with mysqlJun 16 11:19
IsBobmy problem is about my management wanting me to do public statements I disagree withJun 16 11:20
schestowitzWhy migrate to .NET? I'm curious.Jun 16 11:20
oiaohmIsBob: remember this year websites that can run ofline is coming.Jun 16 11:20
IsBobI'm not sure why, since M$ made a deal with our client they've been pretty elusive about thatJun 16 11:21
oiaohmI am looking at it for a lot of client side work internal.  OS netural and will need nothering more than a Upto date webbrowser installed.Jun 16 11:21
IsBobone of my co-workers suspects they paid a big trip to Hawaii for some of the managers of our clientJun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: so you think they might come to them and say "look, you're using our IP and all, so either you pay or move to .NET?"Jun 16 11:21
schestowitzIsBob: yes, Microsoft gifts peopleJun 16 11:22
schestowitzIt's a form of bribeJun 16 11:22
IsBobclearlyJun 16 11:22
schestowitzCommon. Many examples in MS'c aseJun 16 11:22
schestowitz*MS'sJun 16 11:22
IsBobI don't think they might do it, i think they already didJun 16 11:22
schestowitzMono is a rampJun 16 11:22
IsBobassorted with a nice "gift"Jun 16 11:22
oiaohmYou are aware as of yet mono does not work on arm and mips.Jun 16 11:22
schestowitzhad they used Java, migration would be complicatedJun 16 11:22
schestowitzBut this is EEE - embrace, extend...Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmSo clients are being locked out of furture more power effective client options IsBobJun 16 11:23
oiaohmThere are technical issues with mono.Jun 16 11:23
oiaohmThat can be targetted avoiding the complete IP issue.Jun 16 11:24
*mib_v1wqax has quit (Client Quit)Jun 16 11:24
*mib_kcgay0 (i=4e965300@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fac017cbd0fac013) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:24
DaemonMDVhttp://www.macworld.com/article/137...Jun 16 11:24
DaemonMDVThe guy buys 2,419 DRM'd 129k tracksJun 16 11:25
*mib_kcgay0 has quit (Client Quit)Jun 16 11:25
IsBobmy N+2 ordered a complete blackout about what happened, and we're strongly "encouraged" to publish things that will increase Mono's acceptanceJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDVthen complains that he was cheated when Apple wants more money to upgrade him to what he should have had in the first placeJun 16 11:25
DaemonMDV(256k no DRM)Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzIsBob: encouraged by whom?Jun 16 11:25
schestowitzNovell? Microsoft?Jun 16 11:26
IsBobby our managementJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDVdear god, if he has $2500 to spend on iTunes tracks, you'd think 30 cents apiece would be easy to fork overJun 16 11:26
DaemonMDV:PJun 16 11:26
IsBobnot sure who's behindJun 16 11:26
IsBobof course we already have a big contract with NovellJun 16 11:26
schestowitzIt's the same with MS/Novell cotnractsJun 16 11:26
schestowitzI know cause I was toldJun 16 11:26
IsBoband they probably don't want to have to renegociate itJun 16 11:26
schestowitzThey go to clients...Jun 16 11:26
splosionbe a whistleblower. this is the sort of thing wikileaks was invented forJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAnd they tell them to put "IP" in the press releasesJun 16 11:26
schestowitzAs in, we'll sell you SUSE coupons at a discount is you publicly promote theseJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVyeah, of course you will no doubt be fired if they figure out it was youJun 16 11:27
schestowitzI.e. promote 'Linux tax' (MS patentsJun 16 11:27
IsBobsplosion: I'm pretty sure I could be identified very quickly if anything leaksJun 16 11:27
schestowitzFor a bribeJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDV(goes without saying)Jun 16 11:27
IsBobI already made some statements against Mono and M$ in the pastJun 16 11:27
oiaohmDoes not matter really IsBob.  IBM is gearing up to go after the Small business market with Linux.Jun 16 11:27
schestowitzsplosion: +1Jun 16 11:27
splosionIsBob: bummerJun 16 11:27
DaemonMDVEasy URPMI is still not back upJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVoddJun 16 11:28
oiaohmBasically your bosses should be asking who is going to win.   IBM and Orcale or MS.Jun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVbut shows how much people depend on less than legal stuffJun 16 11:28
DaemonMDVfrankly it kind of sickens me that Vorbis is free and hardly anything uses itJun 16 11:29
schestowitzSo basically, Microsoft lets Linux embrace .NETJun 16 11:29
schestowitzThen it can start shouting "IP"  and "thieves" and offer .NET (Windows only)Jun 16 11:29
schestowitzIt's so predictableJun 16 11:29
oiaohmBoth Orcale and IBM have cards in play schestowitz.Jun 16 11:29
oiaohmAs with all battles there are some wins and some losses.Jun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVI found out this Sansa thing is a PlaysForSure deviceJun 16 11:30
DaemonMDVprobably why it's so unfriendly with non-Microsoft media players trying to sync itJun 16 11:30
oiaohmIn the scale of importance a few wins here and there for .net are not going to help MS long term.Jun 16 11:30
IsBobschestowitz: so I will probably have to make public statements about Mono soonJun 16 11:31
IsBoband I wonder how many of the similar statements we've seen recently have been made by people in the same situationJun 16 11:31
oiaohmCan you still cover emerging techs IsBobJun 16 11:31
oiaohmlike vala from gnome and state of samba.Jun 16 11:31
schestowitzIsBob: bought opinionsJun 16 11:32
schestowitzMicrosoft does lots of itJun 16 11:32
schestowitzE.g. Tesco example from last week in BNJun 16 11:32
schestowitzASUS' fake "Windows is better"Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"vendor recommends Vista" (Microsoft bribes for this too)Jun 16 11:32
oiaohmCreativity the say not to say anything bad against mono.   There is nothing stopping talking about the competing techs.Jun 16 11:32
DaemonMDVof course it is, you know just what to expect out of itJun 16 11:32
DaemonMDV*cough*Jun 16 11:32
schestowitz"We're interested in IP peace of mind" (not exact quote)Jun 16 11:32
schestowitzBut I never expected better from a company of thugsJun 16 11:33
schestowitzBribing people to utters marketing liesJun 16 11:33
IsBobI wonder whether similar things are happening at Canonical, given their recent movesJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd later they point to it..Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd say...Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVschestowitz: According to Alexa's site rank, almost every Linux-related site is going upJun 16 11:33
schestowitz"Look, Dell recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVbut Microsoft.com has gone down over 5%Jun 16 11:33
schestowitzand "HP recommends Vista"Jun 16 11:33
DaemonMDVin this quarterJun 16 11:33
schestowitzAnd "everyone loves Mono"Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVdespite all the Windows 7 blitzJun 16 11:34
schestowitz"Lyons and Enderle and Didio say that SCO is going to win the trial"Jun 16 11:34
schestowitzDon't get me started on the Vista7 slogJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe bloggersJun 16 11:34
schestowitzThey bribe journalistsJun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVit still dwarfs any Linux distro's website hitsJun 16 11:34
schestowitzAnd they attack those who say the truth Jun 16 11:34
DaemonMDVbut it is on the way downJun 16 11:34
oiaohmAre those hits counting windows update DaemonMDVJun 16 11:35
schestowitzIt plays dirttyJun 16 11:35
schestowitz[on its way down]Jun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVwell, that's not good for them, that their site is getting less popular despite so much advertisingJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVnoJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVonly browsersJun 16 11:35
DaemonMDVMicrosoft.com is the 18th most trafficked site in the United StatesJun 16 11:36
IsBobit pains me to see all of that because I'm exactly in the same situation, with hands tiedJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVUbuntu was like 2400-somethingJun 16 11:36
schestowitzWindows Update is Akamai (Linux)Jun 16 11:36
IsBobI wonder what we can do to stop people from using that Mono crapJun 16 11:36
schestowitzDaemonMDV: nopeJun 16 11:36
schestowitzAlexa is no gold standardJun 16 11:36
oiaohmPeople finding out information on patches from windows update show up as hits DaemonMDV if it covering technet.Jun 16 11:36
schestowitzIt's stupid to even make it believableJun 16 11:36
schestowitzIsBob: join the fightJun 16 11:36
DaemonMDVtechnet is a different domainJun 16 11:36
schestowitzExpose what you canJun 16 11:37
schestowitzIt's possible to do bothJun 16 11:37
schestowitzDo the job and leaking the truthJun 16 11:37
schestowitzMany things in BN are based on whistle blowersJun 16 11:37
oiaohmJust had to ask some stats sites group them DaemonMDV.Jun 16 11:37
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:37
oiaohmIsBob: when you are forbin to talk about something always ask what you are not forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:37
oiaohmsometimes the not forbin can block what you are forbin to talk about.Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzForbidden = "we are doing something bad"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzOr "don't ask"Jun 16 11:38
schestowitzHonest people work openlyJun 16 11:38
schestowitzLike here in BNJun 16 11:38
schestowitzWe don't do PMsJun 16 11:39
schestowitzAnd some people still try to trip us up this wayJun 16 11:39
oiaohmI have had to work under all sorts of different conditions.Jun 16 11:39
DaemonMDVhttp://www.crunchgear.com/2009/06/15/th...Jun 16 11:40
oiaohmLot of times taking a positive line in a different direction is simpler than dispute and still can be long term effective.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVAlso, the comments on the Times Web site are truly disheartening: “This invention is stupid die die die.” Calm down, sirs.Jun 16 11:40
DaemonMDVlmaoJun 16 11:40
oiaohmGod that knife is useless.Jun 16 11:41
oiaohmSlash stab method would still work perfectly with it.Jun 16 11:41
DaemonMDVwell, it was invented in Sweden to be sold in the UKJun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVcan't really go too hard on itJun 16 11:43
oiaohmBesides I do use the point of knife when cooking at times.Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDV:)Jun 16 11:43
DaemonMDVwell, if I bought the knife, why would I have bought it?Jun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVso *I* can't stab anyone?Jun 16 11:44
schestowitzPeople will DIY their knivesJun 16 11:44
schestowitzWhat a stupid ideaJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVMaybe I'll just make up my own damned mind whether I want to stab someoneJun 16 11:44
DaemonMDVhehJun 16 11:44
schestowitzMaybe they should also make hands that work only in the kitchenJun 16 11:44
schestowitzAnd ban metalJun 16 11:44
schestowitzOr...Jun 16 11:44
schestowitz"Honey, will you please come to the kitchen?"Jun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVwell get this, you buy them, then get rid of your old knivesJun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVthen someone breaks into your houseJun 16 11:45
schestowitzThey relocate the crimeJun 16 11:45
*Np237 (n=joss@diva.malsain.org) has joined #boycottnovellJun 16 11:45
DaemonMDVand you wish you had a knife to protect yourself withJun 16 11:45
Np237heyaJun 16 11:45
schestowitzGood luck going to people's house confiscating all the old utensilsJun 16 11:45
schestowitzNp237: hey, what's up?Jun 16 11:45
*IsBob has quit (Remote closed the connection)Jun 16 11:45

Comments

Recent Techrights' Posts

The Ongoing Evolutionary Process of News-Reading (or News-Finding) on the World Wide Web
it gets worse
"It's Obvious There's No Future For Any of Us from Blizzard at Microsoft"
The rumours suggest that more Microsoft layoffs are on the way
[Meme] Who's the Boss?
"I thought EPC governed the Office"
Salary Adjustment Procedure (SAP) at the EPO and Why Workers' Salary is Actually Decreasing Each Year (Currency Loses Its Purchasing Power)
outline and update on a years-old blunder
 
Links 27/02/2024: PlayStation Layoffs and More Oppressive New Laws for Hong Kong
Links for the day
Gemini Links 27/02/2024: Facebook as Containment Field and Depression Driven Development (DDD)
Links for the day
They're Adding Warnings Now: The Site "It's FOSS" is Not FOSS
It's better that they at least explicitly state this
Links 27/02/2024: Nevada Versus End-To-End Encryption, Birmingham Bankrupt
Links for the day
End of an Era
The Web isn't just filled with marketing spam but actual disinformation
[Meme] Onboarding New EPO Staff
You read the patent application and grant within hours
The Legacy Prolific Writers Leave Behind Them
"Free Software Credibility Index" after more than 15 years
Phoronix in Google News
congratulating or welcoming Embrace, Extend, Extinguish (E.E.E.)
Google Fired Many Employees Working on Google News (Which Had Deteriorated and Became Gulag Noise, Littered and Gamed by Blogspam, Plagiarism, and Chatbot/Translator-Generated Spew), Now Comes the Likely 'Phase-out'
No wonder many yearn for the days of DMOZ and Web directories in general
IRC Proceedings: Monday, February 26, 2024
IRC logs for Monday, February 26, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
Exposed: FSFE, Legal & Licensing Workshop (LLW), Legal Network & Modern Slavery
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Gemini Links 26/02/2024: Mastodon Trouble, RSS, and Zombie-scrolling
Links for the day
Links 26/02/2024: Suicide Crisis and Doctor Walkouts in South Korea
Links for the day
Why Do People Who Attack GNU/Linux Hate Women So Much?
My wife is being viciously targeted again
Ongoing Media Campaign, Sponsored by Bill Gates, to Portray Critics of Gates Crimes as "Conspiracy" Cranks
In prior years we wrote about this PR tactic of Gates
[Meme] Follow the Law, Not Corrupt Bosses
pressuring staff to break the rules to make more money
The EPO Uses Appraisals to Force Staff to Illegally Grant European Patents or Lose the Job. The Matter is Being Escalated en Masse to ILO-AT, Requesting a Review of Appraisal Reports.
it is only getting worse over time
Debian History Harassment & Abuse culture evolution
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day
IRC Proceedings: Sunday, February 25, 2024
IRC logs for Sunday, February 25, 2024IRC logs for Sunday, February 25, 2024
Gemini Links 25/02/2024: Chronic Pain and a Hall of the Broken Things
Links for the day
Links 25/02/2024: New Rants About 'Hey Hi' Hype and JavaScript Bloat
Links for the day
Going Static Helped the Planet, Too
As we've been saying since last year
Chris Rutter, Winchester College, Clare College choir, Arm Ltd, underage workers & Debian accidental deaths
Reprinted with permission from Daniel Pocock
Gemini Links 25/02/2024: Blocking Crawlers and Moving to gemserv
Links for the day
IRC Proceedings: Saturday, February 24, 2024
IRC logs for Saturday, February 24, 2024
Over at Tux Machines...
GNU/Linux news for the past day