IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: June 23rd, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:35 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

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-NickServ-This nickname is registered. Please choose a different nickname, or identify via /msg NickServ identify <password>. Jun 23 12:02
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kentma (12:04:58) kentma: [H]omer: are you okay for a private chat on the phone calls thing? Jun 23 12:02
>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitz Jun 23 12:04
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation. Jun 23 12:06
schestowitz [H]omer, that FreeNode-wide error left me Op-less (pronounced hopeless?) Jun 23 12:08
kentma schestowitz: I found myself in a room alone for some time there, before ChanServ returned. Jun 23 12:09
schestowitz There was a similar problem last week. They had script kiddies messing about on the face of it. All channels that I’m on were affected. Jun 23 12:10
kentma schestowitz: ahh, save us from bored kids…   Were these DOS attacks from botnets or some weakness in ircd? Jun 23 12:14
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schestowitz I really don’t know. But anyway, look what I’ve found: http://www.zawya.com/Story.cfm/sidZ… …………. “Memorandum of Understanding”…. I’m posting about it shortly. Jun 23 12:16
kentma Were MS promoting oss solutions into a developing IT space, you could see long term benefits for oss and Arab north Africa.  As things stand, I suspect that they’ll be doing the usual, which will merely waste shareholder and Arab government money on promoting legacy technology and business models. Jun 23 12:19
schestowitz “Unlimited Potential” it says at the bottom.  It’s Microsoft anti-Linux Adoption Program. Jun 23 12:21
kentma shareholders, surely, will begin to baulk at these increasingly futile attempts to bolster a business  model which is clearly unsustainable in the gnu world. Jun 23 12:23
schestowitz If Microsoft’s profits continue to decline, the incentive to fight disruption will decline also. Jun 23 12:29
kentma Perhaps, I think it’ll depend on whether they manage to change their management at any point Jun 23 12:33
schestowitz The problem is this. Jun 23 12:40
schestowitz Ballmer just wants to meet expectations/forecasts, so he can’t change strategy (without being injured, short-term). That’s where Ozzie steps in. But a lot of the other senior left. Really, they did. Microsoft lost many of its icons and they continue to leave. Jun 23 12:42
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>ChanServ<op #boycottnovell schestowitz Jun 23 15:16
-ChanServ-You are not authorized to perform this operation. Jun 23 15:16
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schestowitz Afternoon, PetoKraus. Jun 23 15:41
PetoKraus ‘llo Jun 23 15:41
PetoKraus i am freaking melting! 33C in the shade Jun 23 15:41
schestowitz It’s abnormal for your country, isn’t it? Jun 23 15:41
PetoKraus not really Jun 23 15:41
PetoKraus it’s summer. Jun 23 15:41
schestowitz PJ has just praised your distro: “e shows KDE 4, by the way, in the course of the video, and while he makes fun of Gentoo, I have to say that it’s my next distro to try. Here’s why. The last time I went to the mall, I was in a computer store, and the guy waiting on me was telling me about Gentoo. He said it’s true it takes a while to set it up, but once you do, you’ve got a smooth, fast system customized for you.” Jun 23 15:42
Eruaran hello guys Jun 23 15:43
schestowitz Howdy. Jun 23 15:43
PetoKraus the main point of gentoo is that “customized for you” part… Many people don’t want that. They want something generic. Jun 23 15:50
Eruaran I’m going to get around to trying out Gentoo sooner or later Jun 23 15:51
schestowitz I hardly modify my system, software-wise, so I could probably live with Gentoo or its good derivatives. Sabayon is a bit scary though because it uses packages that are betas… Jun 23 15:55
PetoKraus sabayon doesn’t build from source, i think Jun 23 15:56
schestowitz I don’t think so either, but it uses Entropy (IIRC), which works with emerge. Jun 23 15:58
schestowitz Have you guys seen this: http://www.kroah.com/lo… ? Jun 23 16:02
PetoKraus linus didn’t sign it Jun 23 16:11
schestowitz No? I didn’t notice. Well, I won’t assume it’s an accident. Jun 23 16:12
PetoKraus well, me neither, since Andrew Morton did Jun 23 16:12
PetoKraus maybe it didn’t reach him yet Jun 23 16:13
PetoKraus you know, it’s summer :) Jun 23 16:13
schestowitz When Linus blasted an early GPLv3 draft, other kernel devs followed him like sheep (agreeing with him _WITHOUT READING THE LICENCE_) Jun 23 16:13
PetoKraus well, you can always distribute the kernel under GPLv3 i think Jun 23 16:16
PetoKraus since you yourself are free to “upgrade” the license Jun 23 16:16
schestowitz Too many big vendors are being the Foundation. It’s practically pointless to fork. Jun 23 16:18
PetoKraus well sure Jun 23 16:18
PetoKraus but you know, you can do the same as debian does Jun 23 16:18
PetoKraus iceweasel is not a fork of firefox Jun 23 16:19
schestowitz You then need to deal with all the ‘political’ things like passing of the blobs. Jun 23 16:19
schestowitz Yes, did you see my latest link digest? I call it Iceweasel download day. :-) Jun 23 16:19
PetoKraus i didn’t, i am spending way too much time offline, unfortunately :P Jun 23 16:24
schestowitz Just don’t run around too much. You’d get dehydrated. Anyway, to be on topic, I’m going through many OpenSUSE reviews at the moment. Here’s the issue: OpenSUSE, unlike Ubuntu, is adopted typically by ‘experts’ or long-time SUSEers, so they know their way around. I can’t find ‘n00b reviews’. Jun 23 16:28
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schestowitz Mroning, maxstirner. Jun 23 16:38
maxstirner good morning roy :) Jun 23 16:39
maxstirner thought i’d go idle on your channel whilst going through the links for today ;) Jun 23 16:39
maxstirner pleasant weekend? Jun 23 16:40
schestowitz Yes, been rainy though. Jun 23 16:40
maxstirner welcome to england? :) Jun 23 16:41
maxstirner how do you accumulate these links so quickly? do you use google news search or some sort of sophisticated RSS reader? Jun 23 16:42
schestowitz Well, I spend a lot of time indoors, so I don’t mind too much. Though it has been nice running in Trafford on Sundays, but not this weekend. Jun 23 16:42
schestowitz Just in: http://www.groklaw.net/art… Jun 23 16:42
maxstirner nice Jun 23 16:43
schestowitz Another goodie from the s/w patent lovers at Trend Miro: http://www.channelregister.c… (IOW, Windows security is kaput, say security vendors themselves) Jun 23 16:44
schestowitz “However Chen, who has five patents to her name, admitted that investors nervously questioned her risky decision.” So trolling (sort of) is the new business plan. Meet the SCO of the snake oil industry. Jun 23 16:46
maxstirner There’s water free out there and its drinkable but there’s people buying bottled water, and you have to ask the question why? Jun 23 16:47
maxstirner classic Jun 23 16:47
maxstirner the answer to that is (if tap water clean) “because consumers are morons” Jun 23 16:48
maxstirner i wonder if there would be more working implementations of worms for linux with growing market share on the desktop Jun 23 16:50
schestowitz You mean, written by security vendors? It’s a similar situation. Jun 23 16:52
schestowitz Create risk, then use it to sell. Novell did that too, didn’t it? “lolz omg! there’s patent risk, buy suse, gets protection. oh noes!!11 ms is after you” Jun 23 16:53
maxstirner i meant generally successful implementations.. gnu/lx on lots of servers already, but with desktop popularity you get the “clicking on things” aspect.. Jun 23 16:54
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schestowitz There’s a Mac Trojan in the news at the moment. Linux’ Achilles heel is probably applications like OOo, assuming something penetrated past the O/S level. Jun 23 16:55
Eruaran GNU/Linux distro’s are not homogenized Jun 23 16:56
maxstirner I remember the hack-a-pc contest the other day, they hacked the mac using some quicktime vulnerability via clicking on… Jun 23 16:56
maxstirner that’s certainly an advantage.. Eruaran Jun 23 16:56
schestowitz Yes, Schneier wrote about this a couple of years back. Diversity _plus_ memory allocation that’s less predictable is a big advantage. Jun 23 16:57
maxstirner and the su/user distinction perhaps.. Jun 23 16:59
Eruaran Apple has regressed into security by obscurity Jun 23 16:59
maxstirner didnt MS try to cut out the ISVs with their own anti-spyware attempt? Jun 23 16:59
Eruaran Defender ? Jun 23 17:00
maxstirner the underlying BSD should be secure shouldnt it, its just their safari + quicktime software thats ful of holes Jun 23 17:00
maxstirner Eruaran, yes.. Jun 23 17:01
Eruaran Defender is also known as DCS Jun 23 17:01
Eruaran (Doesn’t Catch Shit) Jun 23 17:01
schestowitz Vista was claimed recently to be as ‘secure’ as Windows 2000. Two independent sources, IIRC. Jun 23 17:02
schestowitz It’s a question of perception only. Jun 23 17:02
Eruaran I’ve heard Ballmer claim that Vista is the most secure operating system. Period. Jun 23 17:02
Eruaran He’s full of snappy one liners like that. Jun 23 17:03
maxstirner developers, developers,developers,developers,developers, developers,developers,developers,developers,developers, developers,developers,developers,developers,developers? Jun 23 17:03
maxstirner :D Jun 23 17:03
schestowitz I’ll get you some URLs. Jun 23 17:03
Eruaran One of the directors of the company I work for recently sent an email to everyone in the company about Microsoft’s future Jun 23 17:04
maxstirner win2000 was rather secure, wasnt it based on NT? certainly a long-time favourite at a couple of corporations i worked at Jun 23 17:04
schestowitz Amassed here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01… Jun 23 17:04
Eruaran And where we should be heading Jun 23 17:04
maxstirner what’s the industry Eruaran Jun 23 17:04
Eruaran IT Jun 23 17:04
maxstirner obviously ;) Jun 23 17:05
Eruaran He talked about the rumblings within the industry and how Windows 7 is expected approx three years after Vista’s release date Jun 23 17:05
Eruaran He said simply, “Microsoft does not have three years”. Jun 23 17:05
maxstirner funnily enough, thats exactly how I feel about MS :D Jun 23 17:06
schestowitz I hope people don’t believe the 7apourware. Jun 23 17:06
schestowitz It’s intended to freeze the market Jun 23 17:06
Eruaran The marked cannot be frozen Jun 23 17:06
schestowitz The ‘demo’ came just before a major OEM decision time. Jun 23 17:06
Eruaran Its already starting to shift Jun 23 17:07
maxstirner never happen schestowitz, they already leaked its a poshed-up vista :d Jun 23 17:07
Eruaran We already have clients and customers who are using more than 4GB of RAM and want to know what their options are in overcoming the 32bit memory limits, and they don’t want  Vista. Jun 23 17:08
maxstirner Beyond all the freedom as in speech, I think there’s a straightforward economic free beer imperative at this stage, and these things tend to work in capitalism Jun 23 17:09
Eruaran Esepecially people who are using OpenGL based professional graphics apps. Jun 23 17:09
maxstirner no amount of purchasing nigerian ministers can prevent the coming landslide Jun 23 17:09
schestowitz They should be using 64-bit laptop with enterprise-grade Linux. These do exist. Jun 23 17:09
Eruaran I really don’t understand companies like Adobe and Autodesk. Jun 23 17:10
Eruaran This market doesn’t care what platform it uses, so long at it works. Jun 23 17:10
schestowitz <maxstirner>, I found a lot of political manipulation this morning See the posts. We’ll be seeing more lawsuits by proxy in the future. Jun 23 17:10
maxstirner Just looking through your vista security article, schestowitz, brings back all the memories Jun 23 17:10
schestowitz <Eruaran> , apps like Maya 3D are already GNU/Linux focus. It’s chicken and egg… Jun 23 17:11
Eruaran yes Jun 23 17:11
maxstirner the marketing machine still works.. they launched it as a beta knowing v well that it was most probably ull of bugs and holes, but they still got all the “pc pro magazine” type press repeating the nonsense Jun 23 17:11
Eruaran PC magazines are the same as “analysts” Jun 23 17:12
schestowitz The Vista lies lasted for a few good months. They AstroTurfed too, free laptops, fake reviews, etc. Jun 23 17:12
maxstirner i then had to endure hearing the same nonsense from my dear father (75), “pc pro magazine” in hand, how he wants to “upgrade” to vista because its secure Jun 23 17:12
schestowitz Microsoft is no ordinary company. Jun 23 17:12
maxstirner well immediately after launch they had to issue this massive pack of updates to stuff the first major holes Jun 23 17:12
schestowitz I told this to Asay some time ago. There’s no prejudice here. I personally loathe crime. Microsoft just happens to resort to a lot of corruption, so me and Microsoft and no friends. Jun 23 17:12
maxstirner its all in the billions isnt it.. with that sort of monopoly, you cant really lose.. or at least you SHOULDNT :D Jun 23 17:13
Eruaran Very often when a customer says, “it says in [insert magazine name here]“, I respond with, “you mean the same magazine that told you Norton 360 was great software ?” Jun 23 17:13
maxstirner hehehehe Jun 23 17:14
schestowitz They pushed hard on marketing with a budget of half a billion dollars and hoped to imprison people inside Vista using the critical mass theory. They failed.  A year later less tthan 1% of the businesses ran Vista. Yes, less than 1%. Jun 23 17:14
Eruaran Magazine reviews are bought. Jun 23 17:14
maxstirner 5 dumbest moves blog entry: “4) Unwillingness to cannibalize its own products, aka greed” Jun 23 17:14
maxstirner it’s really the two desktop products MS lives on (Win and Office) that are subject to massive market pressure now Jun 23 17:15
schestowitz Yes. Jun 23 17:16
maxstirner schestowitz, but now everybody is forced to buy vista licenses (even if they downgrade) so they will get some “reportable” figures Jun 23 17:16
schestowitz I trust Joe Wilcox when he says that Windows and Office are pretty much _all_ of Microsoft… in the sense that they are profitable. The rest is losing heaps. Attempts to evolve and all… Jun 23 17:17
schestowitz That’s the power of monopoly. You call the shots. If people don’t like it, they’ll starve. Jun 23 17:17
schestowitz They actually need to pay $50 extra to upgrade from Vista to XP. Jun 23 17:17
maxstirner and it gives MS license to show these as vista sales nonetheless Jun 23 17:17
Eruaran As if the likes of HP, Dell and Acer don’t know those figures are rubbish. Jun 23 17:19
maxstirner win+office are under threat from the free beer linux+ooo desktop, and from the internet services ubiquity trend Jun 23 17:19
schestowitz <maxstirner> , someone said this a long time ago. It’s double-dipping. Jun 23 17:19
maxstirner in the case of asus, they really bypassed these distributors you mentioned Eruaran, realised the low-cost imperative Jun 23 17:19
maxstirner schestowitz, i can’t say something original everytime i put my hands on the keyboard unfortunately ;) Jun 23 17:20
maxstirner “When people are not allowed to think and apply knowledge, there’s anarchy” Jun 23 17:22
maxstirner Thinking and applying knowledge freely was definition of anarchy in my book ;) Jun 23 17:22
Eruaran I said to a customer a couple of weeks ago, “try Ubuntu for a week, if you don’t like it you can come back and buy that copy of XP you already budgeted for” Jun 23 17:23
maxstirner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List… Jun 23 17:23
maxstirner in fact… Jun 23 17:23
Eruaran He tried Ubuntu Jun 23 17:23
schestowitz <maxstirner>, no, I meant something else. What Microsoft did is sort of double-dipping. They can claim 3 sales of Windows Vista per PC _that runs XP_ Jun 23 17:23
schestowitz It’s absurd. it’s sick. Jun 23 17:23
maxstirner schestowitz, i did understand what you were saying, i was referring to the non-original bit – i definetely would have read that somewhere ;) Jun 23 17:24
Eruaran He didn’t come back for XP Jun 23 17:24
schestowitz Oh, the way I wrote it was perhaps unintentionally seen as rude. I type quickly. Jun 23 17:25
Eruaran Generally we only hear from customers who are unhappy about something. Jun 23 17:25
Eruaran If we don’t hear from them, we know they’re happy. Jun 23 17:25
maxstirner schestowitz, the term is often used with this negative connotation, shouldnt worry Jun 23 17:25
Eruaran I’ll let you guys in on a little secret Jun 23 17:25
maxstirner Eruaran, if i was win-dependent, i’d panic re: the end of xp Jun 23 17:26
maxstirner even that itwire petition thing screams panic :D Jun 23 17:26
maxstirner Eruaran, go on then :P Jun 23 17:26
Eruaran The business I work for is a Microsoft gold certified partner Jun 23 17:26
Eruaran And we’re giving Ubuntu to customers. Jun 23 17:26
Eruaran =p Jun 23 17:26
maxstirner Well, good to hear they haven’t got you by the balls (contractually) to the extent of prohibiting this Jun 23 17:27
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maxstirner i’m sure there were all sorts of sinister side-agreements to prevent breaking up of the winbundling on new pcs over the past decade Jun 23 17:27
Eruaran I’ve seen a couple Jun 23 17:28
schestowitz Gold partner = sold out on paper. It’s Microsoft’s way on nailing down people. Jun 23 17:28
maxstirner opensource.mit.edu/papers/imhorst.pdf freesoftware = anarchy? (pdf warning) Jun 23 17:29
schestowitz A bit like MoU, which I wrote about this morning. Or as someone I know told me some days ago, it’s a sign of mischief. Jun 23 17:29
Eruaran I really don’t know what this gold certified partner thing is really Jun 23 17:30
Eruaran We have no direct dealings with Microsoft Jun 23 17:30
schestowitz <Eruaran>, see the text here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008… Jun 23 17:30
maxstirner Really? I would have thought they hand it to you for good sales and you get to market yourself as certified? Jun 23 17:31
schestowitz A lot of big companies that use Linux and also tied to the Microsoft Golden Sellout. It doesn’t mean much. It’s an obligation made because of suits exchanging money and wine bottles. Jun 23 17:31
Eruaran we had a hilarious incident one day Jun 23 17:32
maxstirner so you just get the tag without entering into an explicit contract Jun 23 17:32
Eruaran One of our guys called Microsoft to do a ‘downgrade’ for a customer Jun 23 17:33
Eruaran this indian guy actually asked, ‘what is Vista ?’ Jun 23 17:33
maxstirner :D really Jun 23 17:33
Eruaran true story Jun 23 17:33
Eruaran we all fell about laughing for about a week Jun 23 17:33
maxstirner :) Jun 23 17:34
schestowitz Longhorn Reborn… ME2 edition. Jun 23 17:34
Eruaran Even Longer Horn Jun 23 17:38
Eruaran Extremely Longhorn ME2 RSI Edition Jun 23 17:39
schestowitz Heh. They called the project after a bar somewhere in WA. Jun 23 17:39
Eruaran Western Australia ? Jun 23 17:39
maxstirner washington state? Jun 23 17:39
schestowitz I’ve always wondered if the rename was (as I insisted when they announced the “Vista” brand) a case of escapng bad Google signature. Jun 23 17:40
schestowitz The name “longhorn” was already associated at the time with a horrible and forever-delayed piece of nothing. Jun 23 17:40
maxstirner but they always had some idiotic working tag for projects didnt they? Jun 23 17:42
maxstirner During development, the project was codenamed “Whistler” Jun 23 17:42
maxstirner XP Jun 23 17:42
maxstirner Win7 “Vienna” :D Jun 23 17:43
maxstirner i think it’ll make them the laughing stock of IT again, perhaps same as for Vista Jun 23 17:43
schestowitz Yes, indeed. Jun 23 17:43
maxstirner it now has to endure comparison with a free, stable, performant alternative Jun 23 17:43
maxstirner with OS2, which i actually dabbled with back in the day, that was much more obscurist than gnu/lx is now Jun 23 17:44
schestowitz I’ve watched this quite closely, so I know the /perceived/ 7 (perpetuated by :PC mags) and the reality that has top executives fleeing the company. Jun 23 17:44
Eruaran I saw Linus Torvalds talking about Git at Google, I found it mildly amusing when he said there are two software projects named after him, “Linux” and “Git”. Jun 23 17:44
schestowitz Poole, Valentine, Gates, Allchin… all gone. All the Windows ‘icons’…. gone… I don’t even know who runs that division anymore. Mary Jo Foley would know… Jun 23 17:45
maxstirner i think that’s really their problem, during win95/98/xp period, there was ‘no alternative’, nowadays even the ‘pc mags’ put a distro into their cdrom Jun 23 17:45
schestowitz What? Without a bribery for the CD? That conflicts with their business model. :-) Jun 23 17:46
schestowitz Remember: http://www.groklaw.net/pdf/Comes-3096.pdf “”Working behind the scenes to orchestrate “independent” praise of our technology, and damnation of the enemy’s, is a key evangelism function during the Slog. “Independent” analyst’s report should be issued, praising your technology and damning the competitors (or ignoring them). “Independent” consultants should write columns and articles” Jun 23 17:46
schestowitz “In the face of strong competition, Evangelism’s focus may shift immediately to the next version of the same technology, however. Indeed, Phase 1 (Evangelism Starts) for version x+1 may start as soon as this Final Release of version X.” Jun 23 17:46
maxstirner yes, i’ve seen it done though. there are a couple of linux pc mags now, and the pc pro type morons risk getting overtaken on the left. so i do see the odd knoppix on the classic winpc mags Jun 23 17:47
maxstirner “scoping Windows 7 development to a three-year timeframe”, and that “the specific release date will ultimately be determined by meeting the quality bar.” Jun 23 17:47
maxstirner the WOW! :D Jun 23 17:47
Eruaran have to go Jun 23 17:48
Eruaran bbl Jun 23 17:48
schestowitz The only WOW is World Of Warcraft. Remember that the Wow slogan is gone now. Jun 23 17:48
maxstirner ciao Eruaran Jun 23 17:48
schestowitz The SHowUsTheWow site was shut down and all the volunteer contribution detrayed. Jun 23 17:49
maxstirner got too embarrassing i suppose :D laughing stock Jun 23 17:49
schestowitz See you soon. Jun 23 17:49
maxstirner i never saw that site, sounds hilarious Jun 23 17:49
maxstirner they were panicking so much about getting something out the door.. maybe theyll fulfill half their promises for vista on win7.. Jun 23 17:50
maxstirner that file system comes to mind.. Jun 23 17:50
schestowitz I never watched it (I knew about it) until it ws shut down. Bill Gates advertised it. All the boot lickers jumped in. Jun 23 17:50
maxstirner winfs! Jun 23 17:51
maxstirner “a feature mentioned by Bill Gates for Blackcomb was “a pervasive typing line that will recognize the sentence that [the user is] typing in.” Jun 23 17:51
maxstirner bit like gnome-do? Jun 23 17:52
schestowitz Well, there’s more than just that. Jun 23 17:53
schestowitz KDE4 has some similar stuff. Jun 23 17:53
schestowitz But it doesn’t exist until it’s mass-marketed by the “Man Who Brought Computing to the Masses” Jun 23 17:54
maxstirner did you see his bbc interview the other day? Jun 23 17:55
maxstirner thought he was about to claim he invented the internet Jun 23 17:55
schestowitz Oh oh! http://lists.oasis-open.org/arc… Jun 23 17:55
schestowitz Welcome to the Beast. The belly that swallowed Patrick. Jun 23 17:55
maxstirner redmond centre of IT universe obv Jun 23 17:58
maxstirner http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/… Jun 23 17:58
schestowitz Microsoft will become some type of non-software company, at least in terms of focus. This one is hardly worth caring about. Jun 23 18:00
schestowitz To repeat what I shared in oiic (because it seems important): Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> http://lists.oasis-open.org/a… Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> http://blogs.sun.com/dancer… Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> Microsoft is suddenly inviting all people behindODF to ‘pull a Patrick D’ Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> Reason: http://lodahl.blogspot.com/2008… Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> Erwin’s last post (he’s leaving): “Maybe this invitation has something to do with Microsoft’s public “ODF has clearly won” statement at a recent event.” Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> Microsoft is trying to grab ODF control Jun 23 18:08
schestowitz <schestowitz> Just as it does with Open Source. Reject the invitation just as Charles did. Jun 23 18:08
maxstirner the ribbon is a mini-vista really.. will their integration of ODF be half-hearted, but done so as to prevent isolation on standards compliance? Jun 23 18:23
maxstirner perhaps msooxml will do the world a favour and just die.. it was never published in the final version IIRC Jun 23 18:23
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@host-77-247-224-25.isper.sk) has joined #boycottnovell Jun 23 18:26
schestowitz No, it could take monthjs. Jun 23 18:28
maxstirner will see what happens.. odf development is in safe hands i presume? Jun 23 18:29
schestowitz Posted: Jun 23 18:31
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/200… Jun 23 18:31
schestowitz BTW, your translation of the story about ODF in your country was viewed by many. Even a Sun blog cited it. Jun 23 18:32
maxstirner ooo.org “1.2M downloads per week (!!!) on average (since the beginning of 2008) with most recent download numbers having been close to 2M.” nice Jun 23 18:33
schestowitz Yes, it’s growing. Was around 1M at the end of last year. Jun 23 18:34
maxstirner the ribbon-wow-effect :D Jun 23 18:34
schestowitz It’s just a gizmo. “Look! It looks nicer. You should ‘upgrade’” Jun 23 18:36
*RogerB (n=mint@bas3-sherbrooke40-1177840316.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell Jun 23 19:09
RogerB hi there Jun 23 19:10
schestowitz Hey Roger1 Jun 23 19:11
RogerB i flushed open suse for gentoo, happy ^ :P Jun 23 19:11
schestowitz Is Gentoo 2008.x still on the right track? I’ve been tracking it for a while and there was a good rebirth. Jun 23 19:12
RogerB dont know Jun 23 19:12
RogerB i just chrooted on my debian box Jun 23 19:13
RogerB to install it Jun 23 19:13
RogerB because the provider installer (installer-console) is terribly bad :( Jun 23 19:13
schestowitz How long were you using/experimenting with OpenSUSE for? Jun 23 19:13
RogerB 1 day :P Jun 23 19:13
RogerB never liked open suse Jun 23 19:13
RogerB hand probably 1-2 week during 10.3 Jun 23 19:14
schestowitz Susan Linton helps the guys hype it up, IMHO. Jun 23 19:14
schestowitz (TaxMachines that is) Jun 23 19:14
schestowitz *Tux Jun 23 19:14
RogerB i hope i will hve some internet Jun 23 19:14
RogerB ;) Jun 23 19:14
RogerB since when i tryed 2008.0b2 my netowrk was undetected Jun 23 19:14
RogerB its probably a regression bug Jun 23 19:15
RogerB since it was working fine in 2007 Jun 23 19:15
schestowitz Ethernet? Jun 23 19:15
RogerB yep, with the e1000 driver Jun 23 19:15
schestowitz it’s good to test with a Live CD. Jun 23 19:15
RogerB 02:01.0 Ethernet controller [0200]: Intel Corporation 82547EI Gigabit Ethernet Controller [8086:1019] Jun 23 19:15
RogerB dosn<t know if it will work Jun 23 19:15
schestowitz I never have a problem with any distro that I installed. Weird, but maybe the PCs I have are far from Linux-hostile. Jun 23 19:16
RogerB Intel chipset Jun 23 19:16
RogerB based Jun 23 19:16
RogerB never as any trouble Jun 23 19:16
maxstirner sounds bog-standard to me RogerB Jun 23 19:16
schestowitz AMD seems to be recommended by the FSF in a sense. Jun 23 19:16
RogerB wow Jun 23 19:17
RogerB didnt take so much time for the linux kernel to compile ;) Jun 23 19:17
schestowitz Just found this new one: http://rahulthewall.wordpress.com… Jun 23 19:17
RogerB gentoo is good to understand some basic thing about gnu/linux system ;) Jun 23 19:18
maxstirner that’s what they say.. i never had the balls to kneel into it Jun 23 19:19
schestowitz Isn’t LFS a better educational sandbox? Jun 23 19:20
maxstirner CONFIG_E1000: “Intel(R) PRO/1000 Gigabit Ethernet support” Jun 23 19:20
maxstirner # vendor: 8086 (“Intel Corporation”), device: 1019 (“82547EI Gigabit Ethernet Controller”) Jun 23 19:20
cozub gentoo is nice… and easier than slackware :) Jun 23 19:20
maxstirner LFS also famous isnt it.. Jun 23 19:20
cozub I recently rescaped slack -> debian and gentoo Jun 23 19:20
maxstirner gentoo seems to create a certain breed of geeky compile-zealot ;) the wiki is superb as well Jun 23 19:21
cozub escaped Jun 23 19:21
cozub lol :) Jun 23 19:21
schestowitz Try to combine LFS with the principles pf GNU… not blobs. Jun 23 19:21
cozub in slack I had to buid my packages too, but “by hand”, without the mighty portage Jun 23 19:21
maxstirner debian on server, ubuntu on desktop for convenience Jun 23 19:21
RogerB maxstirner : what that mean ^ Jun 23 19:22
RogerB you have the same card ^ Jun 23 19:22
maxstirner RogerB, http://cateee.net/lkddb/web-l… Jun 23 19:22
maxstirner google search, is in kernel driver dbase Jun 23 19:22
maxstirner got a centos hosted vserver going as well, i just fear&loathe the rpm stuff.. prob just a question of familiarity isnt it Jun 23 19:23
RogerB hope i will not *** with grub Jun 23 19:23
RogerB i guess nothing is configurer by default Jun 23 19:24
RogerB like debian Jun 23 19:24
RogerB uh, debian do the default grub config Jun 23 19:24
RogerB sry Jun 23 19:24
maxstirner hmmmmmm rolling release hey? Jun 23 19:24
schestowitz It would be so much easier had OEMs made Free desktops more visible, not just available. I spoke to a friend at the gym on Saturday and he never heard of Linux. Ever. Jun 23 19:27
maxstirner it does happen. it depends though, when i speak to studenty circles in germany noone batterns an eyelid re: linux these days Jun 23 19:29
maxstirner i’ve seen some internet cafes on ubuntu in brazil. i asked the admin if people mind, he said they usually dont notice :D Jun 23 19:30
schestowitz Well, the guy is almost retired now and he assimilates “cleaning me [sic] computer” with computer  skills Jun 23 19:30
RogerB ewww…ubunut Jun 23 19:30
RogerB ubuntu Jun 23 19:30
schestowitz Hehe. Seen it before. Jun 23 19:31
maxstirner me computer hehe Jun 23 19:31
schestowitz Well, he works at the Casino and uses the PC just for Web surfing, but viruses are an issue and he blindly pays for Norton subs. Jun 23 19:31
RogerB i can<t immagine i just finished installing gentoo Jun 23 19:31
RogerB something must go wrong Jun 23 19:32
schestowitz It’s amazing how much money is made in computing owing to ignorance and lack odf choice. Jun 23 19:32
RogerB dev like it when its complicated Jun 23 19:32
RogerB and nothing owrk Jun 23 19:32
schestowitz Gentoo is popular with devices tool. Jun 23 19:32
schestowitz *too. I’ll get examples Jun 23 19:32
maxstirner its been a lovely decade in computing _for some_ Jun 23 19:33
schestowitz A new all-in-one [Gentoo] server: http://www.infoworld.com/article/0… Jun 23 19:34
schestowitz PC factory test tool runs[Gentoo]  Linux: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news… Jun 23 19:34
schestowitz Tiny PCs use pico-ITX main board (Gentoo-optimised): http://linuxdevices.com/news… Jun 23 19:34
schestowitz Email marketer harnesses the power of Gentoo: http://www.linux.com/feature/118799 Jun 23 19:34
schestowitz Review: Zonbu, the $99 [Gentoo] Linux Computer: http://www.cio.com/article/120653 Jun 23 19:34
maxstirner i am expecting more diversity, innovation and cottage industry upon the monopolist’s demise Jun 23 19:34
cozub RogerB: try emerge –newuse –deep -u -v world and something certainly will ;) Jun 23 19:34
schestowitz The above are just examples I have from the _past few months_. The embedded space is a lot bigger than ‘the desktop; Jun 23 19:34
RogerB well, i<ll be back Jun 23 19:35
RogerB bye Jun 23 19:35
RogerB one Jun 23 19:35
RogerB day Jun 23 19:35
RogerB if it work Jun 23 19:35
*RogerB has quit (“Ex-Chat”) Jun 23 19:35
maxstirner it seems counter-intuitive to use gentoo on embedded due to the recompiles doesnt it? Jun 23 19:35
schestowitz Gentoo had him self-destruct. :-D Jun 23 19:36
maxstirner i’d intuitively assume debian stable would be preferable Jun 23 19:36
schestowitz I assume they build it ‘offline’, then reflash. Jun 23 19:36
maxstirner he’s probably doing the reboot and pray, windoze-style Jun 23 19:36
cozub yeah Jun 23 19:36
maxstirner firmware updates probably limited problem if its a minimal kernel Jun 23 19:37
schestowitz Restart app, pray, restart o/s, pray, reinstall app, pray, reinstall os, pray Jun 23 19:37
cozub there’s #gentoo-embedded if you’re interested Jun 23 19:37
*RogerBacon (i=RogerBac@bas3-sherbrooke40-1177840316.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell Jun 23 19:37
RogerBacon something goes wrong Jun 23 19:37
RogerBacon grub isnt even installed in my MBR Jun 23 19:37
RogerBacon Jun 23 19:37
schestowitz There’s obscruity too in devices. More than people imagine run Linux… devices, I mean… Jun 23 19:37
cozub imho gentoo gives you way more configurability, thats why I’d find it useful in embedded world Jun 23 19:37
maxstirner concur.. you got the busybox ‘scandals’ every so often.. Jun 23 19:38
cozub you compile for your arch, with your configure –options etc Jun 23 19:38
RogerBacon should i’ve done grub-install afther the emerge ? Jun 23 19:39
RogerBacon Jun 23 19:39
schestowitz “Busybox ‘scandals’? Well, a law is a law. Jun 23 19:39
cozub RogerBacon: I’m sticking with lilo… so no idea bout grub Jun 23 19:40
RogerBacon oh yeah, lilo :S Jun 23 19:41
cozub what’s wrong with lilo? it’s damn simple :) Jun 23 19:42
cozub on my debian and ubuntu boxes, I use grub, as those seem to be grub-biased Jun 23 19:42
RogerBacon you’re so old-school Jun 23 19:45
RogerBacon ;) Jun 23 19:45
*schestowitz never chooses. Just uses whether the distro comes with. Jun 23 19:45
cozub lol :) maybe Jun 23 19:45
RogerBacon bye Jun 23 19:45
*RogerBacon has quit (“Quitte”) Jun 23 19:45
cozub I actually consider returning debian->slack :) Jun 23 19:46
schestowitz 12.1 is out. Nice reviews, at least from the loyals (most of its existing userbase) Jun 23 19:48
cozub well, slack is a pain with upgrades Jun 23 20:02
cozub + many programs I had to compile on my own Jun 23 20:02
cozub on the other hand, if you want to make your own package, it’s quite easy with slack Jun 23 20:02
schestowitz If you needn’t use much software to begin with, then it’s probably not a big issue. Jun 23 20:03
cozub yet “hacking in” unicode support for the console was a bit of a pain Jun 23 20:05
*moparx (n=moparx@pdpc/supporter/base/moparx) has joined #boycottnovell Jun 23 20:06
cozub but I have to say my “hand-made” utf support in slack worked; while I’m having strange utf issues in gnetoo/debian/ubuntu (on VTs) Jun 23 20:06
schestowitz No UTF? Why not submit this as a patch upstream? Jun 23 20:08
cozub it didn’t seem like the utf support was somethng Volkerding would have liked… yet my version was sub-optimal, as I have no idea how do it correctly Jun 23 20:09
cozub they also ship vanilla mc, which means I had to take a bunch of patches laying around the net and apply them myself, as vanilla mc is uft-useless – unfortunately :-/ Jun 23 20:10
cozub that being said there are some patches I’ve submitted, just for the record :) Jun 23 20:11
schestowitz I miss Norton Commander days (DOS). 170 MB on my HDD. Jun 23 20:11
cozub I’m running several boxes, my main box is an obsolete laptop (2001)… Jun 23 20:12
cozub everythiong is quite slow there, so I keep recalling the times when way-worse hw was able to perform better Jun 23 20:12
moparx hey all Jun 23 20:14
schestowitz Hey, <moparx>. Welcome back. Jun 23 20:15
moparx :) Jun 23 20:15
cozub evening :) Jun 23 20:15
schestowitz I’ve found some good Linux stories (wins, wins, wins) and I’ll post a batch shortly. Jun 23 20:15
moparx So Microsoft wants the ODF folks to swing by for a visit, eh? Jun 23 20:19
schestowitz Aye. Did you see the comment from NDA? I just did. I also let the ODF people know how I see it.. PJ also. Microsoft will respond with the “anti-Microsoft-” label. You can bet on it. Jun 23 20:20
moparx *nod* Jun 23 20:26
*PetoKraus has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) Jun 23 20:30
schestowitz Just spotted: http://linuxpoison.blogspot.com/20… (List of best Linux blogs).   We’re in. Jun 23 20:44
maxstirner -> gym :) Jun 23 21:06
*maxstirner has quit (“Leaving”) Jun 23 21:06
*RogerBacon (i=RogerBac@bas3-sherbrooke40-1177840316.dsl.bell.ca) has joined #boycottnovell Jun 23 21:41
RogerBacon wazzup Jun 23 21:42
*RogerBacon has quit (“Quitte”) Jun 23 21:53
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