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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 3rd, 2008

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:07 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

Enter the IRC channel now

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tessier http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/… Sep 03 02:32
tessier Hans Reiser is being sued by his kids. Sep 03 02:32
tessier Actually, by a lawyer on behalf of his kids. Sep 03 02:33
tessier I don’t think money will make those kids (7 and 8 years old) feel any better. Sep 03 02:33
tessier Not that their dad has any money. Sep 03 02:33
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schestowitz Asay just can’t help mocking desktop Linux again: http://www.linux-foundation.org/we… Sep 03 09:07
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moparx q Sep 03 09:51
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MinceR http://tapthehive.com/discuss/This_Post_Not…   http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/does… Sep 03 10:34
schestowitz “1. Google reserves the right to automatically update and install Chrome.” Sep 03 10:34
schestowitz it’s probably about control, but there are some benefits too. It’s better to let a Foundation (non-profit, sorta) like  Mozilla handle things /without/ bundling and elevating other things. Sep 03 10:36
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schestowitz Just got this: “Google Chrome copies IE says MICROS~1 Jack .. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo… Sep 03 12:09
trmanco schestowitz, too bad my OS doesn’t support that browser so I can give it a try, I know I can compile it but I do’t think its worth it :P Sep 03 12:10
trmanco don’t Sep 03 12:10
trmanco tried with wine but I have to do some hacks before I can run without crashing Sep 03 12:11
schestowitz Here’s my guess: Sep 03 12:11
schestowitz I realise that the Windows version still needs some ‘ironing’: http://beranger.org/index.php?page=… Sep 03 12:12
trmanco You have to grab some DLL’s to run it without crashing -> http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.ph… Sep 03 12:12
schestowitz I bet Google already has some more beta/prototypes, but in order to keep its brand value high, it won’t let the public have it (just yet) Sep 03 12:12
schestowitz As usual, as with every Google software, everything is labeled Beta, but it usually works decen tly Sep 03 12:13
trmanco yes maybe Sep 03 12:13
trmanco wow Sep 03 12:14
trmanco lol Sep 03 12:14
trmanco I don’t really think that one tab one process thingy is a good option Sep 03 12:15
trmanco lets say I have 50 tabs, well I will get 50 processes Sep 03 12:15
schestowitz I haven’t looked into it, but I reckon FF beats it easily because of XUL extension. Sep 03 12:15
trmanco yes Sep 03 12:16
trmanco Firefox 3.1 will beat the ass out of it with tracemonkey  :P Sep 03 12:16
schestowitz I’ve seen at least one complaint over the lack of extensions. I can also guess that HTTP header sniffing will be a barrier, just as it is to Konqueror Sep 03 12:16
schestowitz IOW. ignorant Webmasters will help Microsoft (not deliberately). Sep 03 12:17
schestowitz FF3 already performs better than most in terms of JS:  http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-10… Sep 03 12:18
schestowitz [OT RANT: Now I'll have to wash  my hands for linking to CNET. There's little choice these days. The publications that don't sell out just don't survive. They serve commercial interests rather than information.] Sep 03 12:19
trmanco try the sunspider test Sep 03 12:19
trmanco with FF3.1 with tracemonkey than we can compare Sep 03 12:19
schestowitz I won’t be testing it. Sep 03 12:20
schestowitz Others have already done it and I have just 2 or 3 browsers. Sep 03 12:20
trmanco I tested it once, that screwed up my profile because I wasn’t thinking right, forgot to create a testing profile :| Sep 03 12:21
schestowitz Talk about spin (not as in “taking it for a spin”) from Seattle: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/3… Sep 03 12:22
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Sep 3 12:34:29 2008
*Now talking on #boycottnovell Sep 03 12:34
*Topic for #boycottnovell is: Exploring the reality behind exclusionary deals with Microsoft and their subtle (yet severe) implications (publicly logged) Sep 03 12:34
*Topic for #boycottnovell set by schestowitz at Wed Jun 4 08:34:16 2008 Sep 03 12:34
-ChanServ-[#boycottnovell] Welcome to the #boycottnovell channel Sep 03 12:34
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schestowitz Hey, jose. Sep 03 13:08
jose hello Sep 03 13:08
schestowitz The Gates Fundation [sic] has just appointed Raikes its new CEO, but I’m not sure what to make ot it. Sep 03 13:08
schestowitz *of Sep 03 13:08
jose this person http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/jeff/ ? Sep 03 13:10
schestowitz Yes, he left one of Microsoft’s only profitable divisions. Sep 03 13:12
schestowitz Bear in mind that Microsoft is cooking the books and several people are aware of this (we discussed this the other day). Sep 03 13:13
jose all of these people from Microsoft spread out potentially with a similar agenda .. bad, but are antitrust or other authorities likely to (be able to) do something about it? Sep 03 13:15
schestowitz Might the new appointment suggest or reinforce the supposition that the Gates Fundation [sic] is a vehicle for Microsoft liquidation and influence? Sep 03 13:15
schestowitz BTW, Microsoft has a new ‘insider’ in BBC. He left Microsoft and took over… joining other Microsofties in the BBC. I’ll post about this shortly. Sep 03 13:15
jose it’s as if you had all of these companies across industry perhaps all under one roof, but in behavior and maybe insider info not in terms of official relationships Sep 03 13:15
jose my gut tells me “of course this is sinister” as i allude to in posts from time to time, but I am also asking from the pov of is there evidence/laws so that someone will do something about this? Sep 03 13:17
schestowitz I’d have to extend the list.. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/… Sep 03 13:17
jose it weighs down on me a bit that authorities approach towards some MS abuses that seem so clear (and look at the usdoj years back) still manage to take forever and accomplish little Sep 03 13:19
jose definitely we don’t have to depend on anyone in order to create convincing material for the public … eg, boycottnovell.. Sep 03 13:20
schestowitz It doesn’t have reach. Sep 03 13:21
jose actually, i was going to post under the article about the patent demonstration how we should get organized with a website to encourage and facilitate others to engage effectively in letter writing and other types of campaigns Sep 03 13:22
schestowitz Most of the readers (about 45%) are GNU/Linux users, so we preach to those who already know the turth. Sep 03 13:22
jose geekpac is a start though i would like something more general Sep 03 13:22
schestowitz I’m against fighting lobbying with a lobby. Sep 03 13:22
jose yeah Sep 03 13:22
schestowitz It’s fire versus fire. Sep 03 13:22
jose but not “lobby” Sep 03 13:23
schestowitz Their fire is a big nation-wide wild fire. Sep 03 13:23
schestowitz Seen what Lessig does? Sep 03 13:23
jose um.. have ideas, but no not really Sep 03 13:23
jose on lessig Sep 03 13:23
schestowitz He almost joined parliament after fighting against it for years. Instead, he now wants a Grand Change. Sep 03 13:24
schestowitz The type of reform one might seek in FOSS is one that demotes or punishes those that sell out. Sep 03 13:24
jose why did you mention “lobby” .. is it because of “geekpac” Sep 03 13:24
schestowitz Regulation too is an issue and exposition of those who astroturf and believe they won’t get caught (vote-stuffing, pseudo-journalism, etc). Sep 03 13:25
jose well, we have manpower to influence who gains over others. Sep 03 13:25
schestowitz Was GeekPAC not a response to it? Sep 03 13:25
jose we reward the better businesses and fork as necessary Sep 03 13:25
schestowitz jose: we need to appoach a population that is not aware of it. Sep 03 13:25
jose documentation/transparency is important and we already do that collectively Sep 03 13:26
schestowitz There is a massive-scale brainwash that affects 90+% of the population, which is fed adverts and sound bites from ‘officials’. Sep 03 13:26
jose definitely Sep 03 13:26
jose back to “lobby” .. why did you associate with that term? Sep 03 13:26
schestowitz The press rarely approaches me or Shane for opinions on Microsoft/Novell. Sep 03 13:26
schestowitz I probably need to learn what GeekPAC is about. I probably got the wrong impression. Sep 03 13:27
jose ok then let’s put lobby aside for the moment Sep 03 13:27
jose BN has tons of information.. Sep 03 13:27
schestowitz And links. Sep 03 13:28
schestowitz It’s more of an organisation of info. Sep 03 13:28
jose as an example, start “campaings”. these have specific goals Sep 03 13:28
jose …yes… Sep 03 13:28
schestowitz BN helps me organise my thoughts and keep track of names. Sep 03 13:28
jose …yes… Sep 03 13:29
schestowitz Campaigns may need resources too. Sep 03 13:29
jose resources: webpage that lays out arguments.. Sep 03 13:29
jose .. for the specific campaign Sep 03 13:29
schestowitz Given the sad state of capping and tied Web, I don’t hold much hope for openness, long-term. Just watch that blogger that the police slaughtered in Russia last week. Sep 03 13:29
jose .. details like whom to contact, when, how Sep 03 13:29
jose ok, let’s put this aside (i may post what i had written down later) Sep 03 13:30
jose custom linux distros Sep 03 13:31
schestowitz Thanks. Sep 03 13:31
jose these can form a central focus for reaching out to people.. geeks and nongeeks Sep 03 13:31
*schestowitz remembers rPath, which got ruined by Novell Sep 03 13:31
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schestowitz Yes, that too. Sep 03 13:31
jose distros can be made to address hobbies, concerns (eg, political), etc. Sep 03 13:32
schestowitz Ubuntu Studio for example is optimised at kernel level to appeal to and to suit pros. Sep 03 13:32
jose what happened to rpath Sep 03 13:32
schestowitz rPath turns to SLED. Sep 03 13:32
schestowitz Or SLES, depending on where it’s used. Sep 03 13:32
jose don’t understand Sep 03 13:32
schestowitz Let me fetch the URL Sep 03 13:32
jose k Sep 03 13:33
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/04/23… Sep 03 13:33
jose eg, when is bn going to get it’s own official distro… btw, hey libervisco Sep 03 13:33
schestowitz jose: we had a joke distro (SueMe Linux) Sep 03 13:33
jose it’ll get done.. jokes are funny Sep 03 13:34
jose they sell Sep 03 13:34
schestowitz Just hours ago I removed the link to its domain because cybersquatters took over it (Shane didn’t renew reg.) Sep 03 13:34
jose that’s alright.. a bit disappointing, but worse things have happened Sep 03 13:35
schestowitz jose: it was  a Slax-based Live CD with so-called ‘patent-protected’ packages. It was a statement more than anything and people brought attention to it. Sep 03 13:35
schestowitz Shane didn’t renew because the cost of hosting was high compared to the impact it had (number of people who absorbed the message). Sep 03 13:35
jose what was the specific domain Sep 03 13:35
jose name Sep 03 13:35
jose and distro title.. use “” Sep 03 13:35
schestowitz suemelinux dot com I think. Sep 03 13:35
schestowitz http://www.google.com/sear… Sep 03 13:36
jose .com is taken but most other endings are there including .tv Sep 03 13:36
jose and .net Sep 03 13:36
jose one day linux distros might get their own top level… .lnx or something Sep 03 13:37
jose just watch Sep 03 13:37
schestowitz Yes, but we’re not restoring it. Sep 03 13:37
schestowitz More room for cybercrime with more suffixes. :-( Sep 03 13:38
schestowitz http://www.computerworlduk.com/TOOLBOX/OPEN-SOU… Sep 03 13:38
jose “For the former, it means that domain names will turn into a kind of protection racket: every so often, somebody will come up with some new domain – things along the lines of .mug, I imagine – that all companies will be invited to sign up for, just to protect their trademarks, you understand.” Sep 03 13:40
jose i want to make a community from people making custom distros. the goal is to encompass millions. Sep 03 13:47
jose not just millions of people but millions of distros Sep 03 13:47
jose eg, byodix: build your own distro linux Sep 03 13:48
schestowitz That’s possible with today’s tools. Sep 03 13:48
jose would teach step by step how to put one together Sep 03 13:48
schestowitz It won’t be long  before many people walk around with their custom bootable distro on a keychain or the network. Sep 03 13:48
jose working on making a distro will exercise creative juices and lead to a lot of ideas usable for all distros including many new apps and improvements/optimizations Sep 03 13:49
jose i want to involve motivate and tap into the ideas of jack/jill user Sep 03 13:50
jose this is how you beat microsoft and their network Sep 03 13:50
schestowitz Isn’t there an existing such effort? Sep 03 13:50
jose ultimately, they’ll have to give away the code like we do (as well as $0) if they want to compete Sep 03 13:51
jose tell me Sep 03 13:51
schestowitz Novell has Mono-polysoft [sic] Sep 03 13:51
jose what the ? Sep 03 13:51
MinceR lol Sep 03 13:51
MinceR link? Sep 03 13:51
schestowitz No, not that. Sep 03 13:51
schestowitz Either way, Novell is extended the .NET way. Sep 03 13:52
schestowitz Microsoft is not at [E] number 2, before extinguishing Novell. It tries to expand the Mono-poly using Novell. Sep 03 13:52
schestowitz *now, not “not” Sep 03 13:52
jose i consider doing anything for novell as doing it for msft. it’s that simple. whether novl gets bought, buried, whatever Sep 03 13:53
libervisco Hi jose Sep 03 13:55
jose hey Sep 03 13:55
libervisco How are you? Sep 03 13:55
libervisco I was wondering if you’ve seen Landy.. Sep 03 13:55
jose more or less as I was a year ago :) Sep 03 13:55
jose but one year older Sep 03 13:56
libervisco hehe Sep 03 13:56
jose no, i haven’t Sep 03 13:56
jose i dropped by nuxified only once or twice in months and i’ve also been mia wrt thetuxproject Sep 03 13:57
jose … as for distros.. i think i will try to design roughly distros that might appeal to various groups and then email/post to see if people get motivated.. Sep 03 14:00
jose custom environments to go.com Sep 03 14:01
libervisco yeah, he totally disappeared :S Sep 03 14:01
libervisco hmm wait.. there’s a post by him on tuxproject.. Sep 03 14:02
jose you’ve tried his various emails i gather (nuxified, tp, etc) Sep 03 14:02
jose 10 months old? Sep 03 14:02
libervisco no, about the Stephen Fry video Sep 03 14:02
jose that’s fresh Sep 03 14:02
libervisco yesterday Sep 03 14:02
libervisco I tried three emails now Sep 03 14:02
libervisco he’s the only one with access, from what I know, to the paypal account with gamefest prize money and winners have been waiting a while for it :S Sep 03 14:03
jose oh, i c Sep 03 14:04
jose o i c Sep 03 14:04
jose do you know if reptiler has considered helping out the main LFS family of projects? he can have his own AND maybe share some things with them.. not that he’d want to, have time, or anything else…. Sep 03 14:06
jose libervisco, post under one of the gamefest forum topics saying how it’s over and …. Sep 03 14:08
libervisco yeah I’ve been waiting for people to get their prizes first.. Sep 03 14:08
libervisco interestingly, not even thelinuxstore.ca and Zareason are responding, though I doubt any of the winners would take that one up (being in Europe).. Sep 03 14:09
libervisco anyway, that might be slightly offtopic here? Sep 03 14:10
jose just sent him a quick email via tp Sep 03 14:12
jose [ignoring the off topic remark...] libervisco, do you know of a forum where we could.. and are you interested in starting up design work on one or more gamefest distros? Sep 03 14:13
jose before getting in too deep.. i want to rally numerous groups so that we all start to share ideas.. a goal of the group would be to sell mainstream on linux Sep 03 14:15
schestowitz I posted the Fry thing ti Digg and it made a front page. :-) Sep 03 14:15
libervisco Well.. to be honest I scaled down my freedomware efforts for the time being.. Sep 03 14:15
jose all sorts of skills would be required and it would be great if there was a watering hole where everyone, parallel to working on their own batch of distros, gathered to share ideas and ask questions etc Sep 03 14:15
jose schestowitz.. i’ll take a look Sep 03 14:16
jose libervisco, i imagine.. but this is about making a distro not so much about gamefest… since you can pick a different topic.. i just threw that out Sep 03 14:16
jose i think i am going to have to do some design work and then work slowly to sell people on it. Sep 03 14:17
libervisco I like the idea.. I think we talked a bit about that on nuxified as well and I’d formally support it (through nuxified).. Sep 03 14:17
libervisco What do you mean by design though? Sep 03 14:18
jose starts at high level.. what will the “experience” be like Sep 03 14:18
libervisco oh Sep 03 14:18
jose i’m big on documentation and making things as easy as possible.. because i’d like every person to be able to contribute and do their own.. and feel good about it.. and tell their friends…. :) Sep 03 14:19
jose whenever two people get together.. there is a topic of interest.. and there might just be a distro they’d want to work on [i'm exaggerating a bit] Sep 03 14:19
schestowitz Just a little. Sep 03 14:20
schestowitz There are Free software content CDs though. People love that. Sep 03 14:21
jose a distro is like an app package but with the whole kit-n-kaboodle and with hd space dropping, VMs, and some more standards in place, we can have our hard drives littered with these Sep 03 14:21
jose naw.. not an app. a whole environment/presentation Sep 03 14:21
jose unrelated apps don’t interact too much since well.. people haven’t been doing that and also, they’d step on each others toes.. eg, not every “app” can initialize the entire menu system of the desktop as well as of your app as well as of “opponent” apps ;) Sep 03 14:22
jose videos popping up Sep 03 14:23
jose a “beryl” that actually revolved around your project or distro theme Sep 03 14:23
schestowitz How so? Sep 03 14:24
schestowitz Isn’t Beryl renamed and changed now anyway? It’s no longer controlled by Novell (Compiz). Sep 03 14:24
jose [not literally "revolves", btw] Sep 03 14:24
schestowitz :-) Sep 03 14:24
jose i’m not suggesting anything that is new.. i really think that vanilla distros don’t come out of the box to solve problem X. Sep 03 14:26
jose by necessity that is the case. Sep 03 14:26
jose but taking vanilla distro and shaping it into something impressive and custom takes time and skill Sep 03 14:26
jose now i’m lost :/ Sep 03 14:26
jose let’s get more tangible.. there is BNix Sep 03 14:27
jose can you think of what you’d like a nice little CD/DVD/pendrive/etc to hold inside for a user that wanted to get invovled with boycotting novell (just picked BN as an example) Sep 03 14:27
schestowitz I thought about it, but.. Sep 03 14:28
jose imagine if pressing function keys changed the sound on the mouse as it moved Sep 03 14:28
schestowitz The thing about BN is that it explores more than just Novell now. Sep 03 14:28
jose sure.. i’m just trying to pick some specific for illustration purposes Sep 03 14:29
schestowitz If you follow the links (not in the hyperlinks sense), then you get closer to the root of the problem. Sep 03 14:29
schestowitz Insiders, patent laws, lobbyists, etc. Sep 03 14:29
jose all of this is itching to get printed on a disc Sep 03 14:29
schestowitz IOW, we can effectively address the problem better now just with information about Novell, but also  using information that’s peripheral to it. Sep 03 14:29
jose build your storyline through the distro Sep 03 14:29
schestowitz How to distribute? Sep 03 14:30
schestowitz Blackrabbit suggested writing a book, but who would buy? Sep 03 14:30
schestowitz The dissemination of information through physical media is passe for most things. Sep 03 14:30
jose take the people on a journey.. maybe a version of BNix could be useful to law enforcement. another version could be useful to historians.. another version to developers.. etc Sep 03 14:30
schestowitz Even Microsoft ceased to sell some shrink-wrapped s/w like Money. Sep 03 14:30
schestowitz I shall post later another new examples where Microsoft even abandoned the PC (Windows) for gaming,. Sep 03 14:31
jose what’s this got to do with … distribution are details. .. improtant ones’ Sep 03 14:31
schestowitz jose: some people in Denmark created a distro that’s privacy-oriented. Sep 03 14:31
schestowitz There’s also tinfoilhat Linux. They even have an activ e IRC channel. Sep 03 14:32
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jose schestowitz, imagine the BN pages annotated further if necessary so that on a local version of the website right clicking on the mouse over a page brings up a 3dish rotation widget-ish thing with the faces of all the “characters” relevant to the page or the section where you clicked etc.. Sep 03 14:51
schestowitz That’s fictional. There are related links in pages though. Sep 03 14:53
jose depending on the type of news, various charachatures would show.., eg, a beaming balmer, balmer with nose bitten by tux, ballmer fuming or blowing top, ballmer soobing, ballmer cowboy, etc.. to match the plot Sep 03 14:53
jose the pages can be annotated and what i described generated.. eg, for a distro Sep 03 14:54
jose this can be automated and the app that builds this and the eg kde integration can get shared among those building a distro and liking that effect Sep 03 14:55
jose ..among those building their own distros but sharing ideas and code and help Sep 03 14:55
jose sound effects would be good Sep 03 14:55
schestowitz Are we talking about sites or distros? :-) Sep 03 14:55
schestowitz That’s too far-fetched. Sep 03 14:55
jose a clone of the site on the distro Sep 03 14:55
schestowitz Widgets of sorts that serve as RSS readers are a better go. Sep 03 14:56
jose online you’d need javascript or something like that.. on a local distro, it could be more efficient Sep 03 14:56
jose you’d do it i think if the tools were there and it was a matter of some extra annotation and maybe filling out a config file Sep 03 14:56
schestowitz This is wishful thinking. If there was a Groklaw CD, would you bother with it? Sep 03 14:56
jose whatever you like, though i was shooting for humor and fun to help sell your distro Sep 03 14:56
jose what do you mean “bother with it”? Sep 03 14:57
schestowitz Download *and* use/distribute. Sep 03 14:57
jose i posted a while back how to make this sort of stuff practical it would be best to have a very precise set of instructions for building the distros from a base Sep 03 14:57
schestowitz The site of the site is not 700MB, which fits a CD-ROM. Sep 03 14:58
schestowitz *size Sep 03 14:58
jose this way, you can download the “diff” script and have it generate the distro.. Sep 03 14:58
jose think VMs, very fast processors, and many gigabytes of space a few years from now Sep 03 14:58
jose ..there is work to be done.. i’d like people to collaborate.. it would be useful if those with established experience would join Sep 03 14:59
schestowitz There are already Web-based distro builders Sep 03 15:00
schestowitz rBuilder for instance. Sep 03 15:00
benJIman Soon SUSE Studio. Sep 03 15:00
jose what do you mean by web-based.. like nimblex? Sep 03 15:00
benJIman I think he means web-based distro-builders. Not web-based-distro builders. Sep 03 15:01
jose nimblex would be the former.. the latter seems like a very specialized project so I doubted that was the intention Sep 03 15:03
schestowitz NmbleX just as many DEs on it. Sep 03 15:04
schestowitz *NimbleX Sep 03 15:04
schestowitz Maybe you mean Ulteo? Sep 03 15:05
jose also, peer to peer  might be the way to go for distributing at least for maximum flexibility for those taht could not get huge bandwidth.. also someone mentioned the coral network (then again maybe google or others are giving away huge free/cheap bandwidth and space) Sep 03 15:05
jose nimblex has a web system where you pick your packages, etc, and it builds the iso Sep 03 15:06
jose custom distro making techniques and tools would go far for establishing a local linux service ecosystem and convince ms shops.. or put them on warning.. many businesses would love a distro for marketing purposes and with demand as such MS would have to watch their step and pc OEMs would start to seriously support linux Sep 03 15:07
jose a distro can be very simple and precise and take up little space.. imagine opening up a VM or chaning OS (this might become fast and efficient in future if there is demand).. Sep 03 15:09
jose chaning -> changing Sep 03 15:09
jose using developed tools and recipes.. to allow mary sue and jimbo to build a simple distro environments for when they want to indulge in their music rock star Sep 03 15:10
schestowitz That already exists, I think. Sep 03 15:11
schestowitz It’s better not to reinvent the wheel where there’s possible overlap. Sep 03 15:11
jose the number of variations are huge.. i’m not sure i know what you mean Sep 03 15:12
jose it’s getting messy trying to post some of the things i’m thinking about.. picture worth thousand words thing Sep 03 15:13
schestowitz Can  mary sue and jimbo know what they need in their distro and how to make it? Sep 03 15:14
jose a website for shopping for them would have screecasts and full doc support to describe the models :) Sep 03 15:15
jose really there is a lot of business potential here, but i am after growing linux marketshare by peeking mary and jim’s curiosity and then providing a simple process they can use.. Sep 03 15:16
jose first we need to design the styles let’s say Sep 03 15:16
jose then a gui to allow customizing it Sep 03 15:16
jose this would be one way Sep 03 15:16
schestowitz How distant is this from getting the distro du jour and just fetching what they like from a repo? Sep 03 15:16
jose but now i am after geeks mainly. support a group of geeks who then spread out little by little Sep 03 15:17
schestowitz One distro fits all, one repo customises for all. Sep 03 15:17
jose fetching? Sep 03 15:17
jose most distros have limited ops Sep 03 15:17
jose the idea is to build tools that allow styling easily Sep 03 15:17
jose evolutionary not revolutionary Sep 03 15:18
jose but i want to get people excited and working on this rather than ignoring it Sep 03 15:18
jose i want a support group for those with motivation and some skill Sep 03 15:18
jose let ideas run wild and feed back into the hard core devs building utilities and things Sep 03 15:19
jose integrate Sep 03 15:19
jose ok, let’s say you have a gimpix and it has krita installed… Sep 03 15:20
jose but krita does function as it should, rather when you click or set in motion something in this krita Sep 03 15:20
schestowitz http://www.neowin.net/news/main/07/11/25/ne… (Neowin Shift Linux 0.5 Final Released) Sep 03 15:21
jose what you get is a little video/docs describing that functionality and how it is done with the gimp. Sep 03 15:21
jose this is sophisticated Sep 03 15:21
jose but gimp devs might be able and willing to pull it off Sep 03 15:21
schestowitz “Shift Linux is a Linux project that was created by the Neowin community.  Based on Morphix Linux, Shift is Debian based live CD; therefore it has  access to all of the software and applications as other Debian distributions.” Sep 03 15:21
schestowitz “Several versions of Shift Linux have been developed to produce for computers  with lighter or more robust hardware configurations. We have produced Shift  with Fluxbox as the predominant desktop manager for lower resource computers,  and Shift with Gnome and KDE desktop managers, for heartier machines.” Sep 03 15:21
jose and the fruits of their labor would be shared and lead to clones with other apps Sep 03 15:21
jose to customize, you many times have to effectively build new packages. but these packages may not work in almost any other distro Sep 03 15:22
jose we do need more standards though.. so that more distinct packages can coexist.. eg, by being more precise about version and build numbers to allow segragation of config info, plugins, etc Sep 03 15:23
jose in an automated fashion Sep 03 15:23
jose across projects.. etc Sep 03 15:23
jose having app projects tackle distromaking is a very foss/linux friendly “waste of time” vs. porting to shiftyWindows Sep 03 15:26
jose shifty and opaque.. super opaque .. and shifty Sep 03 15:26
jose schestowitz: getting back to BNix, you do much more with total control over a desktop than through a book or even an interactive webpage (not to mention that these two could be included, not to mention that a local version would allow more interesting effects or web effects to be done in real time) Sep 03 15:32
jose schestowitz.. don’t mind me if you are busy, btw Sep 03 15:33
schestowitz According to this < http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/10/l… >, LinuBasher might be de Icaza’s mate. Sep 03 15:33
jose which comment specifically Sep 03 15:34
jose ? Sep 03 15:34
trmanco “This just made me laugh.  Thanks to Glazblog for sharing!  Also worth noting that the JavaScript engine in the next version of Firefox will be FASTER than Google Chrome. :)” Sep 03 15:35
trmanco http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/RobinsD… Sep 03 15:35
schestowitz Result #1 in http://www.google.com/search?num=50&h… : “LinuxHater’s blog, I am a fan – Miguel de Icaza” Sep 03 15:35
trmanco what? Sep 03 15:36
schestowitz jose: I’m never truly busy, just asleep, away or in this case cooking. Sep 03 15:36
schestowitz jose: the last comment in the page I linked to. Sep 03 15:37
schestowitz trmanco: see this one from moments ago: “My current worry is how is Google with its new Chrome browser trying to replace Microsoft?  I suppose even if Google is wildly successful beyond what seems likely now that FLOSS will be in better shape than now?  But what are the nightmare scenarios?” Sep 03 15:37
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/02/… Sep 03 15:37
trmanco schestowitz, thanks Sep 03 15:38
schestowitz I’ll start writing 4-5 BN posts now. It’s fun when I do them in bursts. Sep 03 15:38
trmanco finally Sep 03 15:40
trmanco a good comparison with the V8 and tracemonkey Sep 03 15:40
trmanco http://ejohn.org/files/js-suns… Sep 03 15:40
trmanco take that google chrome :) Sep 03 15:40
trmanco “We already see TraceMonkey (under development for about 2 months) performing better than V8 (under development for about 2 years).” Sep 03 15:41
schestowitz Where’s Chrome? Sep 03 15:41
trmanco the V8 is chrome javascript engine Sep 03 15:41
schestowitz Oh. Sep 03 15:42
trmanco chrome’s* Sep 03 15:42
schestowitz Maybe it spends CPU time phoning home to momma Google. Sep 03 15:42
schestowitz Google is in the business of spy Sep 03 15:43
trmanco http://ejohn.org/blog/javascr… Sep 03 15:43
schestowitz Google is in the business of spying/profiling, Mozilla is not. Sep 03 15:43
trmanco maybe Sep 03 15:43
trmanco here is another one -> http://andreasgal.com/2008/09/03/… Sep 03 15:44
trmanco but has less detail Sep 03 15:44
schestowitz You know which browser deserves the most support? Sep 03 15:47
schestowitz Konqueror. Sep 03 15:47
trmanco why? Sep 03 15:48
trmanco KHTML engine? Sep 03 15:48
schestowitz Mozilla is not developing Free software. Sep 03 15:48
jose i’d like to get dillo running again to catch up some Sep 03 15:49
schestowitz Other FOSS Web browsers seem to be lagging. One of the challenges are spoiled or deliberately stupid Web designers that only allow ‘trusted’ (known) browsers. Sep 03 15:49
kentma schestowitz: it’s laziness.  the fewer browsers which are “allowed”, then the least testing needs to be done. Sep 03 15:50
schestowitz I posted an example about IEC yesterday. Sep 03 15:50
kentma jose: is Dillo still being developed? Sep 03 15:50
schestowitz There should be laws against strong sniffing or a movement to pressure develops to stop it. Sep 03 15:50
schestowitz http://www.elections.org.za/Netscape.htm Sep 03 15:51
jose more online content (eg, from us folks) that would require browser X for some features would help create a scenario were users would want/need to have multiple browsers or engines.. Sep 03 15:51
jose dillo is on vacation to a large degree Sep 03 15:51
kentma schestowitz: governments work the other way, though.  Legal intercept has always been a key pillar of espionage. Sep 03 15:51
schestowitz Want to participate in the national elections? Go and buy some spyware (Windows). Sep 03 15:51
jose the main dev wants to get back to it but  you know how things are with $$$ Sep 03 15:51
schestowitz kentma: the British gov. recently lied about standards. It overestimate adherence, so people complained. Sep 03 15:52
kentma schestowitz: on what issue? Sep 03 15:52
kentma jose: indeed.  probably dillo will remain moribund.  It was never a massive project, although I rather liked it, and used it quite a bit on older PCs. Sep 03 15:53
jose it filled a nitch of light and graphic Sep 03 15:53
kentma quite!  a small niche, I guess. Sep 03 15:53
jose but many pages render subpar and it is missing javascript and some other things Sep 03 15:53
jose it’s good enough for various things.. i would like to help it along at some point. Sep 03 15:54
jose the mozilla javascript engine was always kind of heavy.. this new one might be useful for dillo Sep 03 15:55
schestowitz kentma: I’d have to recheck. Sep 03 15:55
kentma schestowitz:  do you know who subway steel is in cola? Sep 03 15:56
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2008/08/19… Sep 03 15:56
schestowitz kentma: I don’t, why? Sep 03 15:57
schestowitz I realise that the “Bee” persona is intimidating advocates now. Sep 03 15:57
kentma Bee? Sep 03 15:58
schestowitz Maybe you have it kfed Sep 03 15:59
kentma ah, he’s just remained under my watermark. Sep 03 16:00
kentma seems to be a fool, so far as I can see. Sep 03 16:00
schestowitz A harmful one nonetheless. I also notices some ‘unmaskers’. Sep 03 16:04
kentma schestowitz: you’re right – he’s a pretty nasty individual.  It looks like it might be another Gary Stewart nym to me, the vitriol is about right. Sep 03 16:12
trmanco http://feeds.gawker.com/~r/gizmodo/fu… Sep 03 16:13
schestowitz I love the image! Sep 03 16:25
jose that posting and some of the comments are way off Sep 03 16:30
jose google doesn’t own, what they is happening is that you say you won’t sue them if they put blurbs of your material in some database or something. it can get nasty, but it’s different than owning .. maybe they meant pwnd Sep 03 16:31
jose don’t mean to appear to excuse them, but many website terms of posting are likely just like this Sep 03 16:33
jose for google’s business it is extra useful because they are indexing the web Sep 03 16:33
jose chrome is supposed to be foss right? Sep 03 16:34
trmanco yes something like that Sep 03 16:35
trmanco it’s licensed under the bsd license Sep 03 16:35
trmanco http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquire… Sep 03 16:36
schestowitz trmanco: it’s a mixture. Sep 03 16:36
schestowitz trmanco: didn’t you report on that the other day (ComputerWorld link)? Sep 03 16:37
trmanco I do not remember Sep 03 16:37
jose >> The report observes that, “By delivering superior performance while maintaining a nearly [two times] smaller memory and CPU [threads] footprint across the board, Firefox 3.01 proves once again that the open source community can often trump even the most well-funded commercial projects when it comes to delivering efficient, streamlined code.” Sep 03 16:38
tessier__ So, is MS bankrupt yet? Sep 03 16:39
tessier__ And anyone using Chrome as their daily browser yet? Sep 03 16:40
jose This brought to mind the link schestowitz gave to jeffe from novell where he praises the microsoft developers and the honor it is to work near them Sep 03 16:40
jose jeffe is not the name and i am drawing a blank.. Sep 03 16:43
trmanco schestowitz, good news -> http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/OpenMal… Sep 03 16:52
schestowitz tessier: have you followed recent posts while absent for your wedding? Sep 03 16:57
schestowitz Microsoft’s past seems hairy: debts, financial fraud, gigantic losses and questionable stock options that rely on different buckets. Sep 03 16:58
schestowitz I’m not expert in economics (my father and grandfather taught me some stuff), but it seems like classic rule-bending and life on the edge. Sep 03 16:59
schestowitz trmanco:  thanks for that. I was just about to write about it. I have another link now. Sep 03 17:00
schestowitz Sutor posted this one last night: http://www.peterkrantz.com/2008/odf… Sep 03 17:00
trmanco thanks Sep 03 17:01
schestowitz Brazil also BTW. Sep 03 17:01
schestowitz Gimme 10 minutes. Sep 03 17:01
trmanco ok Sep 03 17:02
jose schestowitz, i don’t know if you posted about this… Sep 03 17:03
jose http://stealcode.blogspot.com/2008/07/ci… Sep 03 17:03
jose what about contract terms with Microsoft .. Sep 03 17:03
jose made in a way so that the businesses don’t lose linux customers.. Sep 03 17:03
jose but these customers have to do things like change the browser id.. Sep 03 17:04
jose leading to that popular <1% linux desktop usage figure based on certain website data Sep 03 17:04
jose besides the main text and the question, “WHY would you block customers that use Linux, especially when your site works fine with Linux?” Sep 03 17:07
jose the updates are very interesting Sep 03 17:07
schestowitz I posted a link to it, jose. Sep 03 17:10
schestowitz I’m not sure what else can be said because I find it too depressing to rant about. Sep 03 17:10
jose sorry.. but did want to mention the web marketing angle Sep 03 17:10
jose a letter writing campaign and some negative publicity could help.. remember the bios issue recently Sep 03 17:11
jose i don’t think most companies want headaches from ms deals Sep 03 17:11
schestowitz jose: that “1%” argument needs to be assassinated. it already /had/ been but all the little Mucnhkin Goebbels are repeating the Big Lie over and over again, so it’s hard to keep up. Sep 03 17:11
jose issues like this with citibank help keep it alive Sep 03 17:12
jose don’t want to depress you, btw. Sep 03 17:12
schestowitz jose: that’s a good post because of the links at the bottom. I’ll do a post about it. Sep 03 17:13
jose eye didn’t have an i for that Sep 03 17:14
jose eye <-> i Sep 03 17:14
jose i confess, i made the mistake on purpose Sep 03 17:15
jose depression has a cure . lol Sep 03 17:15
schestowitz No, I’m not depressed. Sep 03 17:15
schestowitz In order to write about it, I needed to have ‘meat’ to the arument. Sep 03 17:16
schestowitz “Citibank suxx” doesn’t cut it. Sep 03 17:16
schestowitz I had 4 refs from several days ago, but only now I have the MS deals to serve as circumstancial evidence. Sep 03 17:16
schestowitz I’ll just finish this ODF post and then do one on Citib ank. Sep 03 17:17
jose one of the updates mentioned that only the linux (unsupported) users get the flash Sep 03 17:17
jose also, they use “unsupported” solaris Sep 03 17:17
jose that looks bad when you add extra code only for “unsupported” linux Sep 03 17:19
jose From the articl Sep 03 17:19
jose This next person went into detail about how Windows is the only OS that offers “real security”. Sep 03 17:19
jose Of course they came back and said Citibank only supports “secure operating systems” and that windows was the only option. Sep 03 17:20
jose Update: Sep 03 17:20
jose HAKdragon On Digg.com verified my suspicion that Citibank is using Solaris on their servers with this link to Netcraft. It appears that both http://citicards.com and http://citibank.com are running on Solaris. So Citibank is using an operating system that is, in their opinion, not secure. Sep 03 17:20
jose end of quoting Sep 03 17:20
schestowitz :-) Sep 03 17:21
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schestowitz I don’t want to parrot their FUD though. Sep 03 17:22
jose it’s also almost inexcusable to call linux insecure Sep 03 17:22
schestowitz I’ll find a way around it. Sep 03 17:22
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jose it’s also possible the blogger is misremembering Sep 03 17:23
jose not sure if those bits are quoted in terms of services or something Sep 03 17:23
jose anyway, the blogger is testimony i suppose Sep 03 17:23
schestowitz Ok, I start writing it. Sep 03 17:28
schestowitz The “Citibank: You’re on Notice” post I saw some months ago… have it among my refs already. Sep 03 17:30
schestowitz Bank of America fits nicely. Sep 03 17:30
jose http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004… Sep 03 17:39
jose or actually http://www.google.com/search?q=Al… Sep 03 17:39
jose and i came to that from this http://www.billparish.com/ci… Sep 03 17:41
jose “It is often forgotten that crown prince Al-Waleed saved Citicorp from going under a decade ago.” Sep 03 17:41
jose sorry again if i am duplicating Sep 03 17:41
jose info you have covered Sep 03 17:41
schestowitz Isn’t that the group of gates’ mates? Sep 03 17:41
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schestowitz I mean, I think ti’s them whom he approached for investments. The SCO infusion offer points back to them too, IIRC. Sep 03 17:42
jose your BN link comes up near the top in that google search Sep 03 17:43
schestowitz Jose, this is going to be a very long post. Sep 03 17:45
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schestowitz WTF?? Sep 03 19:44
schestowitz They are citing a known Microsoft shill: “But for all the hype, Michael Gartenberg, vice president of mobile strategy for Juptermedia, said Chrome is somewhat underwhelming for a first release.” Sep 03 19:44
schestowitz http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20… Sep 03 19:44
schestowitz he’s a former “Microsoft evangelist” on their payroll. Sep 03 19:44
benJIman http://blogs.msdn.com/crispincowan/a… haha. Sep 03 20:02
schestowitz Thanks. Sep 03 20:05
trmanco http://www.securitytracker.com/al… Sep 03 20:24
trmanco Novell and activeX Sep 03 20:25
trmanco how interesting… Sep 03 20:25
schestowitz Is this the same vuln as the last one? Sep 03 20:28
trmanco I’m not really sure Sep 03 20:30
trmanco but it is a little old Sep 03 20:30
schestowitz I reckon the timing of this < http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/082… > was no coincidence. Sep 03 20:35
schestowitz “As long as Novell refuses to rescind the agreement they are party to this blatant attempt at hijacking FOSS/Linux, and to their damnable lie about MS IP being in Linux. As long as they keep getting money from Microsoft I doubt they will rescind the agreement. Novell fanbois who refuse to see the plain truth about this agreement are either no friends of FOSS/GPL or, in their misguided loyalties, they refuse to see and keep their he Sep 03 20:37
schestowitz ads up their collective rears to avoid the truth.” Sep 03 20:37
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_stor… Sep 03 20:37
schestowitz http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story… “Quoting the LinuxHaters blog is like quoting Didio or O’Hara as accurate sources. Both are paid MS sycophants and I have no doubt that the author of the Linuxhatersblog is too.” Sep 03 20:39
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johnny_utah Roy, you there? Sep 03 21:12
schestowitz Yes, I am. What’s up? Sep 03 21:12
johnny_utah You see this? http://www.videolan.org/patents.html Sep 03 21:12
schestowitz That’s why we must fight softrware patents. Media compression is mathematics. It must not be owned by people. Sep 03 21:14
johnny_utah Agreed.  I use VLC all the time, what a shame. Sep 03 21:15
schestowitz Either way, it’ll implode (the system that is). The US patent system already crumbles under the pressure as R&D moves abroad. Sep 03 21:16
tessier__ schestowitz: Haskell is a purely functional programming language. The programs themselves are mathematical functions. I want to see a trial where someone implements a codec in Haskell and gets sued over it and presents the non-patentable mathematical forumulas aka source code. Sep 03 21:16
tessier__ formulas Sep 03 21:16
tessier__ There is already a window manager in Haskell and various other things. It’s a general purpose programming language. Sep 03 21:17
tessier__ Someone even wrote a basic OS in it. Sep 03 21:17
schestowitz They US economy could become China/India roadkill unless it stops this madness. It hurts the EU too… everywhere. Sep 03 21:17
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schestowitz I’ve just found lots more patent news (will probably have no time to post it because staying up until 3AM typing I just almost fall asleep and leave typos in tact). Given the ‘quality’ of the patents I see, there’s no way of writing /any/ useful program for free, i.e. without collision in some patents. Heh. PgDn/Up. Sep 03 21:19
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ZiggyFish hey Sep 03 21:29
schestowitz Hey, ZiggyFish, what’s up? Sep 03 21:31
ZiggyFish when are you planning on doing the daily links? Sep 03 21:32
schestowitz At the end of the day. I used to do it twice a day. Sep 03 21:32
schestowitz I see that Microsoft keeps burning money: http://www.internetnews.com/webco… Sep 03 21:33
ZiggyFish and I like the idea of open source books (luck would have it that I go to uni at the start of the year) Sep 03 21:33
schestowitz It compensates itself by nushing after the Yahoo! failure. Sep 03 21:33
schestowitz ZiggyFish: should I post the links twice a day like I used to? What do you think. It’s equally easy/hard. Sep 03 21:34
ZiggyFish up to you, I’m use to reading the links when I wake up, and before I go to work. Sep 03 21:35
schestowitz As for books, they no longer need to be printed (machines and material), so the idea of charging for them becomes outdated. RMS explains this pretty well. People at the lower bound can now beat the big boys using throwaways. CC, YouTube, FOSS, etc. All laws that forbid this are attempt to change the clock through corruption of law. Sep 03 21:36
schestowitz ZiggyFish: the links pretty much cover everything I find useful, but excluded are the bits that I do full posts about. Sep 03 21:37
ZiggyFish How did I know that article was about Microsoft acquiring a company. Sep 03 21:37
schestowitz [Grrrrrrr........ that SuSEGeek.com guys keeps shoving all his posts into every single Linux site... giving SUSE and Novell visibility that others deprive it of] Sep 03 21:38
ZiggyFish the book thing. I use to use p2p communities to download books. But with this server I don’t have to Sep 03 21:38
schestowitz *”guy”…”from Sep 03 21:38
schestowitz What is a book anyway? When compressed, the 4000 posts from BN.com are just 10 megs Sep 03 21:39
schestowitz That’s just 2 seconds over the wire. Sep 03 21:39
ZiggyFish yeah, exactly (also ways a lot less too) Sep 03 21:40
schestowitz Books are a composition of knowledge that the author acquired elsewhere, so to claim ownership of it (I respect copyrights, but attribution has its place too), well… knowledge is a mashup of thoughts or axioms. Sep 03 21:41
schestowitz See http://slated.org/the_right_to_own_knowledge Sep 03 21:41
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seller_liar hello Sep 03 22:55
seller_liar hey roy Sep 03 22:56
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seller_liar I find about m$ and globo, in portuguese Sep 03 22:56
schestowitz Hi. Sep 03 22:56
seller_liar call trmanco for help you Sep 03 22:56
schestowitz Globo?!? Sep 03 22:56
schestowitz I remember now. Sep 03 22:56
seller_liar http://www.midiaindependent… Sep 03 22:57
seller_liar m$ was a partner from globo Sep 03 22:57
wasabi omg i hurd this crazy story about niovell porting all theyre applacations to m$ is this tru? Sep 03 22:57
seller_liar for a little time Sep 03 22:57
schestowitz “O sócio estrangeiro – a Microsoft – recusou aportar capital e perdeu espaço. Sep 03 22:57
schestowitz Sep 03 22:57
seller_liar yes Sep 03 22:57
seller_liar but I believe , Sep 03 22:58
seller_liar globo indirectly mantains m$ contracts Sep 03 22:58
schestowitz Can you find a press release where both are seen together? Sep 03 22:58
seller_liar the tv show of globo (aka “telenovelas”) supports a lot of time m$ products Sep 03 22:58
seller_liar no sorry Sep 03 22:58
schestowitz http://findarticles.com/p/articl… ( Microsoft Buys Into Brazil With $126M Globo Stake. ) Sep 03 22:58
schestowitz Haha. Billy bought himself another fan press. Sep 03 22:59
schestowitz He has lots of it in Latin America too (I found many examples before). Sep 03 22:59
seller_liar believe me ,globo is a more powerful company in Brazil Sep 03 22:59
seller_liar even portugal know this Sep 03 22:59
seller_liar it was born in brazil dictatorship and hates the actual governement Sep 03 23:00
schestowitz “following a $1 billion investment in Comcast Corp. in 1997.” This is important to me for other reasons. I’ve been showing the relationship between MS and Comcast, but didn’t know about a $1,000,000,000 stake. Sep 03 23:00
seller_liar but ,of couse ,now globo supports the actual government Sep 03 23:00
seller_liar globo hates Lula(the actual president) , some years ago , globo make a boycott against luis inacio and win Sep 03 23:01
seller_liar lula supports GNU Linux Sep 03 23:02
schestowitz Follow the money. Sep 03 23:03
seller_liar because of this (m$ and net tecnologies) globo begin to crash Sep 03 23:03
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cj yay! Sep 03 23:03
schestowitz I need you to show me where they do this. Sep 03 23:03
seller_liar and now globo depends from money governement Sep 03 23:03
seller_liar what? Sep 03 23:03
schestowitz I mean, if you find examples or just articles (even in Protuguese) then it can be shown to Brazilian people what Globo does to them. Sep 03 23:03
schestowitz Hi, cj. Sep 03 23:04
cj hi there, schestowitz!  for the record, I am close with a bunch of folks at Novell and I am on contract at MS Sep 03 23:04
seller_liar At moment , I find only that article above Sep 03 23:05
cj also, I’m one of the first 20 or so users of this network :) Sep 03 23:05
cj (freenode/openprojects/linpeople) Sep 03 23:05
seller_liar linpeople? Sep 03 23:05
cj seller_liar: check archive.org Sep 03 23:05
tessier__ cj: So you gonna dish up the scoop on those sleezeballs over at Novell? :) Sep 03 23:05
schestowitz :-) Sep 03 23:06
cj seller_liar: it was rob levin’s first channel on the “linux internet support cooperative” Sep 03 23:06
seller_liar cj:ok Sep 03 23:06
cj tessier__: heh, none of them are sleezeballs afaict.  they’re on the level. Sep 03 23:06
schestowitz What contract at Microsoft? Sep 03 23:07
cj schestowitz: testing a feature in the next release of forefront Sep 03 23:08
cj schestowitz: implementation of the GAPA stuff documented here: http://research.microsoft.com/r… Sep 03 23:11
schestowitz Which company for? Sep 03 23:11
cj schestowitz: saxon & taylor Sep 03 23:12
schestowitz Got homepage? http://www.google.com/search?hl=e… Sep 03 23:12
seller_liar schestowitz: sorry , I don t have any real proof ,but i believe this contracts exists Sep 03 23:12
cj https://www.sakson.com/ Sep 03 23:13
seller_liar schestowitz: oops, a mistake ,forget about it Sep 03 23:13
cj sorry, sakson :) Sep 03 23:13
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection) Sep 03 23:14
schestowitz :) Sep 03 23:15
schestowitz Are you in contract with Microsoft? Sep 03 23:16
cj as for miguel’s motives, I think he’s really quite interested in helping the f/oss folks out.  every time I’ve spoken with him, he has come across as a well-meaning individual. Sep 03 23:16
cj schestowitz: my contract is with S&T.  They have a direct relationship with MSFT Sep 03 23:16
schestowitz Yes, I know. A friend of him told me (mutual friend) Sep 03 23:16
schestowitz But he’s tied to more than just F/OSS. Sep 03 23:16
cj He and RMS have a long history together.  They both mean well, but see the problem from a different perspective.  Richard is more ideological.  Miguel is more pragmatic. Sep 03 23:17
schestowitz I see it differently. Sep 03 23:18
cj I can’t say that I agree with either of them fully, but their end goal is positive and not self-serving. Sep 03 23:18
schestowitz People like Gates really believe and convince themselves that they do good. But they do fraud. Sep 03 23:18
schestowitz Likewise, although it’s  a bad analogy, Miguel looks to elev ate a company like Novell, please his mates from Microsoft (which he cannot realise is quite the criminal entity) and F/OSS is just somewhere among his priorities. Sep 03 23:19
cj schestowitz: nothing is black and white.  he heads the largest do-gooder institute ever seen in the world.  he also ran a company that has been convicted of antitrust… many times. Sep 03 23:19
cj (I was referring to gates) Sep 03 23:19
schestowitz Gates Foundation is not a do-gooder. Sep 03 23:20
cj oh? Sep 03 23:20
schestowitz The charity is a ‘side effect’ that’s embellished via lots of grassroots/astroturf Sep 03 23:20
schestowitz You can see if as it happens in big magazine he owns. Sep 03 23:20
cj they’ve invested heavily in my daughters’ hospital for one… Sep 03 23:20
schestowitz The Gates FOundation is a vehicle for him (and Warren) to escape tax and get some more benefit and a feelgood sensation. Sep 03 23:21
schestowitz cj: some thieves give some of the loot away. Sep 03 23:21
schestowitz The classic robber baron is one that’s also glorified. Sep 03 23:21
schestowitz I ask you kindly to watch the following video: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/01/0… Sep 03 23:22
schestowitz (It’s embedded in the page) Sep 03 23:22
cj I’ll take a look when I get home.  thanks. Sep 03 23:23
schestowitz It’s a lot of work to undo damage of brainwash. Such as the glorification of the Novell/Microsoft deal, where journalists totally neglect the view of programmer who actually built the system. Sep 03 23:24
cj schestowitz: what is a way to improve the situation?  how can either or both of the companies be improved so that you don’t see it as such a catastrophe? Sep 03 23:24
schestowitz BTW, Oracle seems to be a big fraud as well (just been in the news) Sep 03 23:25
cj heh, I thought everybody knew about Larry… Sep 03 23:25
schestowitz Securities fraud… Ellison shredded E-mails that serve as evidence; as did Intel. Sep 03 23:25
schestowitz Larry is crazy. I knew he was a snake when I read about him breaking the law with his fancy yacht/plane fetish. He even joked about breaking the law in a video interview I watched. Sep 03 23:26
schestowitz There’s that book about ‘God’ and ‘Ellison’. What’s the difference between God and Ellison? God doesn’t think he’s Ellison. To Larry, it’s all about being richer and bigger than Gates. He too ‘donates’ (invests) in hospitals. Sep 03 23:27
cj so what’s a proactive solution? Sep 03 23:31
cj there needs to be a relationship between proprietary and free software vendors.  how should that relationship be carried out, optimally? Sep 03 23:32
schestowitz Well, ego elation in big companies is an issue. They have no boundaries, so they ‘shape’ their reports and ruthlessly destroy the small competitors. The work RMS does always revolves around society, not business. He raises this point constantly because people are mistakenly educated so as to believe good business make a good society (there’s no such relationship). Sep 03 23:33
cj is it best to have standards bodies (w3c, ieee, etc) take that roll?  should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software? Sep 03 23:33
cj s/roll/role/ Sep 03 23:33
tessier__ schestowitz: How did Ellison break the law with his yacht/plane fetish? Sep 03 23:33
wasabi And who would enforce said bans? Would we put people in prison? :) Sep 03 23:34
schestowitz RMS would probably say based on his experience that all business needs to evolve towards a model of sharing, _in due time_. A digital world can take advantage of this and blow the gap between poverty and affluence. Sep 03 23:34
schestowitz tessier: he flew under a bridge. Sep 03 23:34
cj oh, wassabi is another infiltrat0r, fyi :) Sep 03 23:34
schestowitz It’s against aviation policies. Sep 03 23:34
schestowitz Bans? Sep 03 23:35
cj schestowitz: should vendors who sell Free software be banned from doing business with those who produce proprietary software? Sep 03 23:37
schestowitz In what context and why? Sep 03 23:40
cj schestowitz: have you been reading what I wrote above? Sep 03 23:40
schestowitz Yes, I have. Sep 03 23:41
cj schestowitz: I’m asking what novell and microsoft are doing wrong, and what can be done to improve the process so that all participants are happy. Sep 03 23:41
schestowitz About standards. Sep 03 23:41
cj they are complying with the GPL, BSD and MIT/X11 licenses… this doesn’t seem to be enough? Sep 03 23:42
cj oh, LGPL as well Sep 03 23:42
cj and Artistic Sep 03 23:42
schestowitz I think the answer is obvious. It didn’t cost Microsoft a dime to participate in the ISO standards for document and the W3C’s work. Sep 03 23:42
cj and loads of others… Sep 03 23:42
cj schestowitz: oh!? Sep 03 23:42
schestowitz Instead they run away form standards and demand cash for anti-standards. Sep 03 23:42
cj schestowitz: have you seen what the cost is to be a member of the w3c?  for a company Microsoft’s size, it’s huge. Sep 03 23:42
cj more than “a dime” Sep 03 23:43
schestowitz That’s beside the point. Sep 03 23:43
schestowitz If they don’t take the lead, they can follow and participate at some level. The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits. Sep 03 23:43
schestowitz Not even GIF Sep 03 23:43
cj schestowitz: I think you’re misinformed.  do you know what ECMA-335 is, for instance? Sep 03 23:44
schestowitz As for Microsoft, it’s not trying to contaminate W3C (Wilson) with DRM and JS ruin. Sep 03 23:44
schestowitz I don’t know the code. Sep 03 23:44
cj schestowitz: there are tons of patents on this technology, for instance: Sep 03 23:45
cj http://www.w3.org/TR/xml/ Sep 03 23:45
cj schestowitz: I agree that the relationship between Novell and Microsoft is sub-optimal, but ranting about things which are inaccurate rather than offering proactive steps helps noone. Sep 03 23:47
schestowitz /whose/ patents? Sep 03 23:47
schestowitz See the following to meet the point that’s arrived here: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/27/… Sep 03 23:48
cj schestowitz: *shrug*  lots of folks.  mostly at MS, I assume. Sep 03 23:48
cj http://usasearch.gov/sear… Sep 03 23:49
schestowitz I already know that they have such patents. That’s not news to anyone. Sep 03 23:51
schestowitz Who again are you? Sep 03 23:51
cj The W3C doesn’t make use of proprietary and patent-ridden bits. Sep 03 23:51
cj why did you say that if you already know that they have such patents? Sep 03 23:52
cj did you not know that the W3C publishes TRs about XML? Sep 03 23:52
schestowitz The W3C acts as a form of patent pool. Sep 03 23:53
schestowitz Much like LiMo. Sep 03 23:53
cj http://web.archive.org/web/19961109144913… <- I’m ‘Da_Man’ there Sep 03 23:53
cj http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rob_Levin Sep 03 23:54
cj I guess that makes me a founding member of freenode Sep 03 23:54
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