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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: September 5th, 2008 - Part II

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wasabidisagree with what though, I have no idea.Sep 05 14:49
taqhow old are you? about more than a decade ago a lot of things happened on the same terms they are happening todaySep 05 14:49
taqbut now we're here, we have the web to talk about it, this is really a big differenceSep 05 14:49
taqand when a see somethings like dirty game, not matter where it came from, from a political, from a company, I talk about thatSep 05 14:50
schestowitzPlanet GNOME has Microsoft people in it now??Sep 05 14:50
taqand of course, some agree, some disagreeSep 05 14:50
trmancoschestowitz, yesSep 05 14:51
wasabiWhat does "microsoft people" mean?Sep 05 14:51
schestowitzPeople employed by Microsoft.Sep 05 14:51
wasabiWhat does that mean, to you?Sep 05 14:51
schestowitzit's bad enough that Ubuntu has Microsoft boosters inside.Sep 05 14:51
trmancoI've been following planet gnome and 80% of the posts are about mono and.net stuffSep 05 14:51
taqso if I say that m$ and novell are weird stuff, you can disagree, but I'm free to say all that I think about that, and not matter if you think it can be FUD or not, to tell people about itSep 05 14:52
schestowitzThat's how Mono and such issues come about.Sep 05 14:52
schestowitzI was warned about this a year ago.Sep 05 14:52
taqicaza just made a post about integration of visual studio and monoSep 05 14:52
wasabiOh. Yeah? Interseting. MS has never sent me a check. =(Sep 05 14:52
wasabiI should talk to their HRSep 05 14:52
taqhow many post about only Free Software and not m$ stuff did you guys saw on his blog on the last 2 years?Sep 05 14:52
schestowitztaq: I saw that and linked to it.Sep 05 14:52
schestowitzSourceForge too has been advertising VSSep 05 14:53
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schestowitzAnd they too are funded by Microsoft. Posted this one hours ago:  http://boycottnovell.com/2008/...Sep 05 14:53
schestowitzMicrosoft is just buying off the FOSS communitySep 05 14:53
taqdid you notice their only power nowadays reside on the money?Sep 05 14:54
wasabiSo how do you guys feel about UFOs?Sep 05 14:54
schestowitzIt's cheaper to change your opponent than it is to compete. Novell is one example, but there are others.Sep 05 14:54
trmancowell, there will come a time where microsoft will have no money left with all these buyoutsSep 05 14:54
schestowitzwasabi: how old are you?Sep 05 14:54
wasabiHow old are you?Sep 05 14:54
taqwasabi: hey, I have some interesting histories about UFOs :-) but that's not the place to talk about that :-)Sep 05 14:54
schestowitztrmanco: it might already be in debtSep 05 14:55
trmancowell i hope soSep 05 14:55
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/200...Sep 05 14:55
schestowitzNovell too is an iffy one.Sep 05 14:55
schestowitzRemember that Enron too was glorified... with amazing pensions promised to its workers. It's a bubble.Sep 05 14:55
schestowitzAnd don't tell me about how much software Microsoft 'sells'... because lots of it is not paid for, except for in some rich countries.Sep 05 14:56
taqdudes, I think that only the time will show us what is happening, because one day or other the truth comes. but I'll not wait quiet till there. :-)Sep 05 14:56
taqthe chat is fine but I need to go. will try to come back later. see yaSep 05 14:57
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trmancohttp://www.theregister.co.uk/20...Sep 05 15:03
trmancoagainSep 05 15:03
trmancothe same guy from yesterdaySep 05 15:04
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schestowitzPeople give them attention when they provoke FOSS fans, so they rinse and repeat. I was recently told that they have a rlationship with MSSep 05 15:07
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schestowitzThe worst one is Andy Orlowski.Sep 05 15:07
trmancowho is Slated?Sep 05 15:08
schestowitzslated.orgSep 05 15:09
trmancoohSep 05 15:09
trmancohomerSep 05 15:09
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trmancothere are so many mibs hereSep 05 15:11
trmanco:|Sep 05 15:11
trmancodoesn't look rightSep 05 15:11
[H]omerPersonally I think it's a risk allowing "mib" nyms access to this channel. There's no way to kickban them without banning *all* Mibbit users.Sep 05 15:13
schestowitzMib mib http://kara.allthingsd.com/f...Sep 05 15:13
schestowitz[H]omer: please no.Sep 05 15:13
[H]omerNo I'm not going toSep 05 15:14
schestowitzI put that access form in the site.Sep 05 15:14
trmancowe can always ask them to change their nicksSep 05 15:14
[H]omerI'm just making an observationSep 05 15:14
schestowitzTrolls can use IRC clients too without being ousted for who they work for.Sep 05 15:14
trmancothat way we can know who is whoSep 05 15:14
[H]omerThe Mibbit interface does allow choosing a nick, rather than just "mib_xxx".Sep 05 15:14
trmanconot even with ./nick?Sep 05 15:15
trmancoafter logging in to the channel?Sep 05 15:15
schestowitzThe channel is no secret anyway.Sep 05 15:15
[H]omerWe could make a rule that access requires Nick registration.Sep 05 15:16
schestowitzJust watch benJIman. There was never seclusion here.Sep 05 15:16
schestowitzWith or without logging, it's enough to have one 'leaker'Sep 05 15:16
schestowitzThat's why this question of 'privacy' is all about an illusion.Sep 05 15:16
[H]omerNot secret, no ... but at IMHO it would keep the s/n ratio down by discouraging Trolls.Sep 05 15:16
schestowitzThey come from Tor (some good people too though) and normal routes.Sep 05 15:17
[H]omerIt's certainly getting busy in here, that's for sure. I take it you posted something that upset Novell/Gnome/Mono people, Roy :)Sep 05 15:20
schestowitzMicrosoft can be added to this tripletSep 05 15:21
schestowitzThey are conjoined in places.Sep 05 15:21
trmancoI found BN mentioned on a blogSep 05 15:22
[H]omerIt saddens me that there are now so many in the Free Software community who simply shrug their shoulders over Microsoft issues.Sep 05 15:22
[H]omerLike it doesn't matterSep 05 15:22
[H]omerAnd were all "looneys" for dissenting against themSep 05 15:23
[H]omer*we'reSep 05 15:23
schestowitztrmanco: which one?Sep 05 15:24
schestowitz[H]omer: that's what Microsoft wants. Apple gets it without even 'buying' people.Sep 05 15:24
trmancoschestowitz, the **something** programmerSep 05 15:25
[H]omerThat's "cj's" siteSep 05 15:25
trmancoyesSep 05 15:25
trmancohp://wp.colliertech.org/cj/?p=237Sep 05 15:26
schestowitzWe get linked from many sites. About 10 a day, I think.Sep 05 15:26
trmancoI found this one on fsdailySep 05 15:27
schestowitzI responded to it. Seems like a plant, one among many.Sep 05 15:27
[H]omerThe Pædantic Programmer's LiveJournal (http://cjcollier.livejournal.com) too.Sep 05 15:28
schestowitzSo *that's* the one where he doesn't pretend to be a "FOSS guy"?Sep 05 15:28
[H]omerHere's his LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/cjcollierSep 05 15:29
[H]omerHe's one of those in the "new wave" pro-Microsoft "Open Sauce" camp.Sep 05 15:29
[H]omer"Microsoft ain't so bad" ... LOL!Sep 05 15:30
schestowitzHeh. Make that SourceForge love Windows, eh?Sep 05 15:30
schestowitzI think I wrote so yesterday.Sep 05 15:30
[H]omerSF sold outSep 05 15:30
schestowitzThat's the de Icazas that I was warned about before.Sep 05 15:30
schestowitzThey try to marry Microsoft with FOSS.Sep 05 15:30
[H]omerYup ... the de Icaza "tribe".Sep 05 15:30
schestowitzWait until he pressures the likes of Ubuntu to preinstall Trojans like Moonlight.Sep 05 15:31
schestowitzBecause "he's a FOSS guy" (lookie! I have a blog) and "Microsoft is not so bad"Sep 05 15:31
[H]omerShuttleworth would be an easy target for the Icaza tribe, since he has few strong convictions about "Freedom". He's more interested in "easy".Sep 05 15:32
schestowitzBoycottNovell? No! Don't listen to them. "they are not interested in solutions..."Sep 05 15:32
schestowitz[H]omer: yes, I know. He tries to be 'nice' to everyone for deals like the one with Dell.Sep 05 15:32
[H]omerI have mixed feelings about the success of NetBook Remix, as you know.Sep 05 15:33
[H]omerThere's no question it pushes Linux to the massesSep 05 15:33
schestowitzYes.Sep 05 15:33
[H]omerBut at what cost to Freedom?Sep 05 15:33
schestowitzAt whose expense?Sep 05 15:33
[H]omerNote: "Linux" not "Free Software".Sep 05 15:34
schestowitzMaemo uses Debian as its base, but it might be 'codecs tax'-tainedSep 05 15:34
schestowitz*tainted (I'm not sure though)Sep 05 15:34
[H]omerThat's what excites Shuttleworth ... the technicalities of "Linux", he patently doesn't care about the political issues. He and the Mono people should get on like a house on fire.Sep 05 15:35
schestowitzMicrosoft would never say "GNU/Linux". It wants to hide the philosophy. I expected Ubuntu to do better than this. Debian does.Sep 05 15:35
[H]omerSweaty B. can barely bring himself to say the phrase "Open Source", much less "GNU/Linux".Sep 05 15:36
schestowitzDoes he know RMS? Microsoft never talks about the GNU people.Sep 05 15:37
schestowitzThey use proxies like CompTIA to attack RMS.Sep 05 15:37
MinceR"Sweaty B." -- i like that.Sep 05 15:38
schestowitzvery petty how they use their pressure groups to attack people.Sep 05 15:38
[H]omerMinceR, : Actually I usually just call him "Sweaty", or "Sweaty the Impaler" if I'm especially disgusted with something he's done recently.Sep 05 15:39
MinceRi usually call him "Monkey Boy"Sep 05 15:39
MinceRbut this one works tooSep 05 15:39
schestowitz'Yes, you'll read a fair number of posts on this blog that are critical of Microsoft. Get used to it. You see, it's an open source blog, and until Steve Ballmer figures out how to say "open source" without throwing up in his mouth, there will likely be an "anti-Microsoft" angle to many of the themes I cover. If you want the rosy view on Microsoft, head over to the MSDN blogs and lose yourself in praise of Microsoft.'Sep 05 15:39
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-135...Sep 05 15:39
schestowitzThat's about Microsoft attacking him when he criticises Microsoft. You're 'not allowed'.Sep 05 15:39
schestowitz[BillG, StewatyB] @mcirosoft.comSep 05 15:40
[H]omerDue Props to the MSBBC for publishing "It's not the Gates, it's the bars", though.Sep 05 15:40
[H]omerBTW: Any news on if Linux is *ever* getting the iPlayer (native + downloads)?Sep 05 15:41
schestowitz"Gates may be gone, but the walls and bars of proprietary software he  helped create remain, for now. Dismantling them is up to us."Sep 05 15:41
schestowitz[H]omer: COLA trolls didn't notice this, but the BBC also published an attack on Linux yesterday-ishSep 05 15:41
[H]omerOh. That's their way of "balancing" Stallman's article, I guess.Sep 05 15:42
[H]omerMind you, Pearly is one of their columnists now.Sep 05 15:42
[H]omerMaybe they should have just stuck Stallman; Moglen; Pearly and Sweaty in the same room for a debate.Sep 05 15:43
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2...Sep 05 15:43
schestowitzIn lInux Today, the BBC was accused by some for putting this "probably paid for MS article" (not exact quote)Sep 05 15:43
[H]omerReading it now...Sep 05 15:44
schestowitz[H]omer: they need to feed the chubby one first. Otherwise, it's like putting Hollyfield and Tyson in a room... could use some ch-eer-ious.Sep 05 15:44
[H]omerThe MSBBC is Microsoft's own "Citizen Kane".Sep 05 15:46
[H]omerNothing they do shocks me now.Sep 05 15:46
schestowitzIt's time to watch how they play politics ahead of the election.Sep 05 15:47
[H]omerIn fact, the official "media" in general is now completely untrustworthy.Sep 05 15:47
[H]omerIf I want news, I'll ask the people ... the real people, uncorrupted by political influence and money.Sep 05 15:47
schestowitzThey already seem to be occupying some special positions and making campaign donation/contributions. Even Barack seems corrupted by them (sorry).Sep 05 15:48
[H]omerMore than likelySep 05 15:48
[H]omerAmerican politics is inherently corruptSep 05 15:48
[H]omerThere's no balance at allSep 05 15:48
schestowitzJust don't ask /dead/ people: http://boycottnovell.com/2008/09/01/...Sep 05 15:48
schestowitzTheir voices were stolen from their gravesSep 05 15:49
schestowitzLook what Garry "fltfish" Stewart is doing. I imagine he's using the name of a holocaust survivor who died to spread outrageous ant-Linux smears and personal attacks.Sep 05 15:50
[H]omerAnti-Linux people are just part of a bigger "right-wing" agenda. It was never about "my toy is better than your toy" envy, it's about the principles of Freedom vs the principles of tyranny. They're right-wing fanatics. Just look at DFS for a stereotypical example.Sep 05 15:52
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[H]omerOr that blatant fascist Alexander TerekhovSep 05 15:54
schestowitzWell, that's not true in all nations.Sep 05 15:54
[H]omerIn the "West", mainly.Sep 05 15:54
schestowitzIn a way, the US' current administration is standing in the way of other nations that want independence. Just watch the protests from South America against ISOSep 05 15:55
[H]omerEspecially the United States of Advertising, Land of the Fee.Sep 05 15:55
*libervisco_ is now known as liberviscoSep 05 15:55
[H]omerYes, Brazil is the best hope for the AmericasSep 05 15:55
schestowitzMicrosoft corrupted ISO for more controlSep 05 15:56
schestowitzHave you seen the latest from Brazil? Didn't post this to COLA...Sep 05 15:56
[H]omerISO is irrelevant now, thanks to the Vole.That was maybe the plan all along.Sep 05 15:56
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/...Sep 05 15:56
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/08... (as you know, Brazil plans to put 52 million kids on Debian)Sep 05 15:57
[H]omerYes, that's Microsoft's typical anti-Linux propaganda - "only Freetards use Linux".Sep 05 15:57
schestowitzBTW, Alex T is harassing others like Groklaw, not just COLASep 05 15:57
[H]omerOh yes, he's infamous.Sep 05 15:58
[H]omerHe's been attacking the FSF for decadesSep 05 15:58
schestowitzReally? That's new to me.Sep 05 15:58
[H]omerYes, he has a whole Website dedicated to itSep 05 15:58
schestowitzI was once asked where he travels. Maybe he's a front for something.Sep 05 15:58
[H]omerWait, I'll see if I can find it.Sep 05 15:59
schestowitzHe could be an O'Gara-like Microsoft alter-egoSep 05 15:59
schestowitzAlso defending SCO BTW.Sep 05 15:59
[H]omerHere it is, probably the most vicious attack ever against Stallman; Moglen; and the FSF: http://www.softpanorama.org/...Sep 05 16:07
[H]omerTerekhov is behind this (nym).Sep 05 16:07
schestowitzhttp://www.google.com/search?s...Sep 05 16:11
schestowitzI see it's linked by Oliver Bell, Microsoft's manager in the eastSep 05 16:11
schestowitzLet's see who else.Sep 05 16:11
schestowitzOliver Bell asked about me BTW.Sep 05 16:12
schestowitzLook at this:http://www.google.com/search?sourceid...Sep 05 16:12
schestowitzOOps. http://www.linux-community.de/Neue...    Sounds like NovellSep 05 16:12
[H]omerIt's an "officially sponsored" work, i.e. propagandaSep 05 16:15
schestowitzHow can I show this?Sep 05 16:16
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schestowitzSounds like the incident with MINIX and Linux (Microsoft paying to encourage Andy to sue Linus)Sep 05 16:16
seller_liarschestowitz: It's possible to make a graph about the m$-novell deal?Sep 05 16:18
schestowitzI thought about ikt.Sep 05 16:18
schestowitzI got some software from the Mandriva repo, but it didn't do what I needed.Sep 05 16:18
schestowitzhttp://alinuxblog.wordpress.com/2008/...Sep 05 16:18
seller_liarschestowitz: wait I show you a exampleSep 05 16:19
seller_liarschestowitz: the graph is very explicativeSep 05 16:19
seller_liarhttp://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagem:M...Sep 05 16:20
schestowitzMore from Matt "Money! Show me money and iPhone!" Asay: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-...Sep 05 16:20
schestowitz*sigh* lost cause.Sep 05 16:20
seller_liarschestowitz: steve woz has in BrazilSep 05 16:20
*schestowitz looksSep 05 16:20
schestowitzSteve or Woz? Or both? ;-pSep 05 16:20
seller_liarwozniakSep 05 16:20
seller_liarschestowitz: A lot of people say is a "very good" personSep 05 16:21
seller_liarschestowitz: It's true?Sep 05 16:21
schestowitzseller_liar: I was going to do this, but couldn't get the software to do multiple nodes. I'll need to GIMP it, I guess.Sep 05 16:21
schestowitzHe slammed open source, sort of.Sep 05 16:21
schestowitzThey glorify him, but  hear he's okay.Sep 05 16:22
schestowitzHe replies to someone I know.Sep 05 16:22
seller_liarschestowitz:who?Sep 05 16:22
schestowitzWozSep 05 16:22
*schestowitz apologises for typosSep 05 16:23
seller_liarschestowitz: okSep 05 16:23
seller_liarschestowitz: do you need a mapmind maker?Sep 05 16:23
schestowitzYes pleaseSep 05 16:24
seller_liarhttp://www.illuminesoftware.co.u...Sep 05 16:26
seller_liarhttp://freemind.sourceforge.net...Sep 05 16:27
schestowitzThey are probably uni-directional many of them.Sep 05 16:28
*schestowitz still lookingSep 05 16:28
seller_liardo you want a bijective mind map?Sep 05 16:29
schestowitzhttp://news.cnet.com/8301-135...Sep 05 16:29
schestowitzFreely positioned nodes...Sep 05 16:30
schestowitzI just need to do many arrows.Sep 05 16:30
schestowitzhttp://www.google-watch.org/Sep 05 16:30
schestowitzRelated to this was some site I'm trying to find.Sep 05 16:31
seller_liarschestowitz: very good info about googleSep 05 16:31
seller_liarschestowitz: I will close my account on gmailSep 05 16:31
schestowitzCan't remember it... going back to like 2003 or 2004 when a colleague showed it to me.Sep 05 16:31
seller_liarschestowitz: how to attack google?Sep 05 16:32
seller_liarschestowitz: only adblockSep 05 16:32
schestowitzI don't attack them.Sep 05 16:32
schestowitzI just pasted a link while trying to find something else.Sep 05 16:32
seller_liarschestowitz:It's not the momentSep 05 16:32
seller_liarschestowitz: But ,if we need, we will attack somedaySep 05 16:33
schestowitzI block all the Google spyware myself (AdSense, Analytics, etc)Sep 05 16:33
seller_liarschestowitz: fsf does not use adsSep 05 16:33
schestowitzMy family and friend don't though. The spying relies on people's ignorance, so they are profiled secretly by many companies (Phorm anyway?)Sep 05 16:33
seller_liarschestowitz: even fsf 100% distros does not uses ads tooSep 05 16:33
seller_liarschestowitz: have you tested freemind?Sep 05 16:34
schestowitzThe thing about Phorm is that you can't even stop it and te crooks that include BT and the govt. that colludes just lets this law violation be.Sep 05 16:34
schestowitzNot yetSep 05 16:34
schestowitzit's something for the weekend, I think.Sep 05 16:34
[H]omerI use Adblock Plus combined with Privoxy and the sa-blacklist. Kills all known ads/tracking dead :)Sep 05 16:34
[H]omerAlso my VPN circumvents Phorm.Sep 05 16:35
seller_liarschestowitz: in Brazil ,google loves orkutSep 05 16:35
seller_liarschestowitz: He knows everything about braziliansSep 05 16:35
seller_liarschestowitz: the big problem is only 5% of world worry about thisSep 05 16:36
schestowitzAs long as Google does not sell this data...Sep 05 16:36
schestowitz(or it leaks...)Sep 05 16:37
seller_liarschestowitz: but profiles every user for more adsSep 05 16:37
seller_liarschestowitz: specialized infoSep 05 16:37
schestowitzseller_liar: another 5% is also exploiting this.Sep 05 16:37
schestowitzWhere 5% equals "people who live in decent conditions"Sep 05 16:37
seller_liarschestowitz: 95% of this world ,only thinks in drugs (alcohol) and sexSep 05 16:37
schestowitzseller_liar: that's how they are educatedSep 05 16:38
seller_liarschestowitz: the other 5% thinks about societySep 05 16:38
[H]omerWell I must be part of the 5% then, since I'm Tee-Total.Sep 05 16:38
seller_liarschestowitz: example , a lot of my people grow in povertySep 05 16:38
seller_liar[H]omer: me tooSep 05 16:38
[H]omerBut I'm a heavy smoker thoughSep 05 16:38
schestowitzIt serves those that can abuse it. Ignorance (or sports/celeb knowledge) is the best friend to a corrupt politicians that want to keep the masses dumbSep 05 16:38
seller_liarschestowitz: then , when the my people grow ,all of them forget the pastSep 05 16:39
seller_liarschestowitz: example in America,Sep 05 16:39
schestowitz[H]omer: look up that lobbying group I postd about earlier.Sep 05 16:39
schestowitzCAGWSep 05 16:39
schestowitzSmoking connection, IIRC. Tobacco industry.Sep 05 16:40
seller_liarschestowitz: a lot of NBA guys grow in povertySep 05 16:40
seller_liarschestowitz: but later ,the guys forget the past ,and "toast" all money in bitches and luxSep 05 16:40
schestowitzWell, so they can sell a dream (NBA) to keep people clinging onto sports.Sep 05 16:40
schestowitzThe problem for a govt' is a state where many people delve deep into politics.Sep 05 16:40
schestowitzAnd use as their sources something other than the Bush York Times.Sep 05 16:41
seller_liarschestowitz: politics SHOULD NOT be optionalSep 05 16:41
seller_liarschestowitz: lookSep 05 16:41
[H]omerBut in terms of my motivations ... Money: I care about subsistence, not greed. Materialism: I care about necessity, before "want". Basically Freedom and Rights are all I'm really passionate about.Sep 05 16:41
seller_liarschestowitz: how many people discuss about politicsSep 05 16:41
seller_liar[H]omer: me tooSep 05 16:41
schestowitzRemember that it's publications like the NTY that suppressed voices that said there were no WoMD before the Iraq invasionSep 05 16:42
schestowitzThey serves Bush and its cronies; same with Microsoft and other investor or mutual relationships.Sep 05 16:42
schestowitzGartner for example.Sep 05 16:42
seller_liarschestowitz: people can not discuss about politcs only in electionSep 05 16:42
seller_liarschestowitz: politics SHOULD BE a constant topicSep 05 16:43
schestowitzseller_liar: that's not the correct question (about politics). The question is about /sources/Sep 05 16:43
seller_liarschestowitz: sources?Sep 05 16:43
schestowitzMany people /think/ they know politics, but they are fed by the very same people they try to know about.Sep 05 16:43
schestowitzJust watch how brushed up all those biographies of politicians are in the press.Sep 05 16:43
schestowitzEveb Wikipedia has been shown to be gamed by the government.Sep 05 16:44
schestowitzAustralia for example... the US too... they toss smears to others like Castro if that helps...Sep 05 16:44
[H]omerPolitics is easy to understand: Just assume everything is a lie perpetrated for the sake of propaganda. Believe only what you see in front of you, and ignore the lies.Sep 05 16:44
schestowitzTechnolgy advice likewise.Sep 05 16:45
seller_liarschestowitz: but people only thinks about sex and drugs financial powerSep 05 16:45
seller_liarschestowitz: of courseSep 05 16:45
schestowitzAsk RMS about it and he'll tell you. You must subscribe to trusted blogs, not the pre$$Sep 05 16:46
seller_liarschestowitz: people should know where to find infos about politicsSep 05 16:46
schestowitzI don't know much about that area.Sep 05 16:46
schestowitzDaily Kos is considered useful.Sep 05 16:47
[H]omerseller_liar, make that "only *evil* people" think about those things.Sep 05 16:47
[H]omerOr at least "obsess" over themSep 05 16:47
schestowitzThat's a matter of unbringing.Sep 05 16:47
seller_liarschestowitz: but the people even not to do thisSep 05 16:47
schestowitzThe danger is that it pases from one generation to another and is absorbed through an education system of creationism and patents.Sep 05 16:47
schestowitz*upbringing (up on top)Sep 05 16:48
seller_liarschestowitz: yesSep 05 16:48
seller_liarschestowitz: the sons clones moral parentsSep 05 16:48
schestowitzIt used to be the churchSep 05 16:48
schestowitzNow the schools are the "church"Sep 05 16:48
schestowitzteaching people to pray to God for "success"Sep 05 16:48
seller_liarschestowitz:but the big problemSep 05 16:49
schestowitzScientology being an extremity.Sep 05 16:49
seller_liarschestowitz: is that parents do not worry about this!!!Sep 05 16:49
schestowitz"Gold Microsoft Partner" being the equivalent of patriarchs of the church.Sep 05 16:50
seller_liarschestowitz: parents only worry about your carrer,job and sexSep 05 16:50
seller_liarschestowitz: and ,of courseSep 05 16:50
seller_liarschestowitz:Sep 05 16:50
seller_liarschestowitz: protect the sons against the "evil world"Sep 05 16:50
[H]omerSociety is divided into three parts - oppressors, the oppressed, and those who fight oppression. My guess would be that the "oppressed" represents the largest majority, with oppressors and those who fight them representing a tiny minority (i.e. good vs evil). Most other people are "neutral" - IOW powerless and ignorant.Sep 05 16:50
schestowitzIt's well concealed in waysSep 05 16:51
schestowitzWhereas some people in the US live in tent, Hollywood shows houses with a big lawn and a happy family that has 3 carsSep 05 16:52
seller_liarschestowitz: american dreamSep 05 16:52
schestowitzYes, it keeps people motivated.Sep 05 16:52
seller_liarschestowitz: holywood is a ilusionSep 05 16:52
[H]omerYes that's the propaganda of the "American Dream"Sep 05 16:52
schestowitzLiving chasing a dream forever, until they drop dead. It's way of encouraging labour.Sep 05 16:52
[H]omerBut the underbelly of that "dream" is a nightmareSep 05 16:53
schestowitzRMS is worth citing again.Sep 05 16:53
seller_liarschestowitz: the american dream seem equal about cinderelaSep 05 16:53
[H]omerIt turns out the the "liberty" extolled by that American Dream, is actually just the "Freedom to brutally exploit others".Sep 05 16:54
schestowitzHe said something about this cculture of debt  (house, cars, children). Living under the rule of mortgage monsters (multi-trillion companies) is a like of imprisonment.Sep 05 16:54
seller_liarschestowitz: let 'seeSep 05 16:54
[H]omerIOW it's all about money and power.Sep 05 16:54
[H]omerNot altruismSep 05 16:55
schestowitzMind you, RMS looks at social issues first.Sep 05 16:55
[H]omerNot real FreedomSep 05 16:55
seller_liarschestowitz: IOW?Sep 05 16:55
schestowitzHe doesn't care about business, not as a priority.Sep 05 16:55
seller_liarseller_liar: example:Sep 05 16:55
schestowitzI asked him about MySQL's dual-licensing and he told me.Sep 05 16:55
[H]omer"IOW" = "In Other Words".Sep 05 16:55
seller_liar[H]omer: okSep 05 16:55
seller_liarand...Sep 05 16:55
schestowitzLet me find something.Sep 05 16:55
schestowitzhttp://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/...Sep 05 16:56
schestowitzThat one is about copyright monopoliesSep 05 16:56
schestowitzThis one is also good: http://blogs.computerworld.com...Sep 05 16:56
schestowitzAll are new BTW. "I really don't care. From my point of view, business issues are minor in comparison with issues of human rights and general well-being."Sep 05 16:56
seller_liarschestowitz: yes! , of courseSep 05 16:57
[H]omerThe FSF philosophy is that money should be a means to an end, not an end unto itself. IOW money and Freedom and not contradictory, but money should not be abused to inhibit Freedom. There's no problem with making profit, as long as it doesn't deprive others (greed).Sep 05 16:57
seller_liarschestowitz: but only 5% know about thisSep 05 16:57
schestowitzLess than 5Sep 05 16:58
schestowitzMaybe 0.5, globallySep 05 16:58
seller_liarschestowitz: maybe this 5% is hierachicalSep 05 16:58
seller_liarschestowitz: 0.5 thinks a lot about societySep 05 16:59
[H]omer0.01% in the US, maybe.Sep 05 16:59
schestowitz0.5% owns how much of the world's wealth?Sep 05 16:59
[H]omerThey're "conditioned" to worship greed.Sep 05 16:59
schestowitz[H]omer: got some figures at hand?Sep 05 16:59
[H]omerJust guessingSep 05 16:59
[H]omerBased on US attitudeSep 05 17:00
schestowitzAbout wealth distributionSep 05 17:00
schestowitzIt would be nice to see a curve for wealth distibutionSep 05 17:00
[H]omerAh OKSep 05 17:00
seller_liarschestowitz: more of 80% of the world is poorSep 05 17:00
schestowitzValue versus population%Sep 05 17:00
[H]omerI did see figures somewhere, I think it may be in Wiki-PSep 05 17:01
schestowitzDefine "poor", it's newspaper speak...Sep 05 17:01
seller_liarschestowitz: poor is people with insuficient per capitaSep 05 17:01
[H]omerhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/society/200...Sep 05 17:02
schestowitzWhat's insufficient? It depends on arbitrary definitonsSep 05 17:02
seller_liarschestowitz: yes, may I am doing a errorSep 05 17:03
[H]omer"The richest 1% of the population have increased their share of national income from around 6% in 1980 to 13% in 1999. The wealthiest 10% of the population now own more than half the country's wealth - up from 47% to 54% over the past 10 years."Sep 05 17:03
schestowitzre: "Rich-poor gap 'has widened under Blair'" is is not true everywhere?Sep 05 17:03
schestowitzWithout intervenation, it naturally gravitates like this, until implosionSep 05 17:03
seller_liarschestowitz: sorry ,a mistake ,forgetSep 05 17:03
schestowitzIf the fox guards the hen house,  the gap widensSep 05 17:05
seller_liarschestowitz: what ?Sep 05 17:05
[H]omer"The top 1% of New York City tax filers now receive more than a third of the city\u2019s adjusted gross income." ~ http://business.timesonline.co.uk/t...Sep 05 17:06
schestowitzI don't know if you follow COLA, but Rex Ballard made some excellent posts about McCain openly supporting Microsoft.Sep 05 17:06
[H]omerI can believe it. McCain and the Vole are two rotten peas in a pod.Sep 05 17:07
schestowitzNew York has always been an exploitation factory.Sep 05 17:07
seller_liarschestowitz: no, but i will read some info about comp.osSep 05 17:07
[H]omerLike Icahn(nibal)Sep 05 17:08
seller_liarschestowitz: The big problem is conformismSep 05 17:08
schestowitz*LOL*Sep 05 17:08
seller_liarschestowitz: why people do nothing aobut this ,Sep 05 17:09
schestowitzIchan,American hero. Learn from this guy, children.Sep 05 17:09
seller_liarschestowitz: Every day people are thinking only.......in sexSep 05 17:09
schestowitzHe's rich, thereofore he is successfulSep 05 17:09
[H]omerMcCain joins Craig Barret; Donald Trump; Steve Ballmer and Bill Gates as one of the world's most evil men.Sep 05 17:09
schestowitz“Strive not to be a man of success, but rather strive to be a man of value.” --Albert EinsteinSep 05 17:10
[H]omerEinstein was at least as good a philosopher as he was a scientistSep 05 17:10
schestowitzExploitation pays.Sep 05 17:11
[H]omerEvil is profitableSep 05 17:11
schestowitzI heard from a mate that he was rude (?) and viciously competitive.Sep 05 17:11
schestowitzErdos was like Einstein I think. He didn't give a s* about money, just maths.Sep 05 17:11
[H]omerBeing competitive is fine, as long as that "competition" is fairSep 05 17:12
[H]omerMicrosoft's breed of competition is just racketeeringSep 05 17:12
schestowitz"You're just a Microsoft hater"Sep 05 17:13
seller_liar[H]omer:is not fair because some people have advantagesSep 05 17:13
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/micros...Sep 05 17:13
[H]omerI'm going to write a blog post about that word "hater". It's propaganda.Sep 05 17:13
schestowitzPeople drink it.Sep 05 17:13
schestowitzLike the GPL FUD Microsoft passes to innocent new members of the Money Club.Sep 05 17:14
[H]omerseller_liar, as long as society gives everyone an equal opportunity, then competition is fair.Sep 05 17:14
seller_liar[H]omer: This is not trueSep 05 17:14
[H]omerUnfortunately opportunities are often "stolen" from peopleSep 05 17:14
schestowitzIt's human's nature, so there must be regulationSep 05 17:15
[H]omerseller_liar, it's not true that everyone has equal opportunities, but we should strive to make it soSep 05 17:15
schestowitzBut regulation softens when money enters the gameSep 05 17:15
schestowitzhttp://lessig.org/blog/2008/07/netr...Sep 05 17:16
[H]omerThink about this term "hater" for a minute.Sep 05 17:17
[H]omerWhat does it actually mean?Sep 05 17:17
schestowitzGood question.Sep 05 17:17
schestowitzIt's philosophical though.Sep 05 17:17
[H]omerIt's like saying "you're not allowed to dissent"Sep 05 17:17
schestowitzYou could wind up thinking about "hate" due to stereotype or due to /injury/Sep 05 17:17
[H]omer"If you dissent, then you must be motivated by malice, not justifiable reasons".Sep 05 17:18
schestowitzXeniphobia is often an artefact of the formerSep 05 17:18
*seller_liar has quit (Remote closed the connection)Sep 05 17:18
schestowitzThe latter is well illustrated by Microsoft direct attacks on many companies and Linux.Sep 05 17:18
schestowitzTell me about it...Sep 05 17:18
schestowitzBoycott Novell is considered an "anti" site because of the word "boycott" (Shane's choice, not mine)Sep 05 17:19
[H]omerAlso think about this ... why would anyone not connected with a company, be so loyal to that company that they'd sabotage the competition, and call anyone who dissents against their company "haters"?Sep 05 17:19
[H]omerWhat's the motivation?Sep 05 17:20
[H]omerIs it mindless "fanboy-ism"?Sep 05 17:20
[H]omerIs it just malice?Sep 05 17:20
[H]omerIs it juvenile delinquency?Sep 05 17:21
schestowitzGymnastics in logic.Sep 05 17:21
schestowitzBut it's well prepared by marketing people and poison pens like Enderle.Sep 05 17:21
schestowitzThat is, it's engineered so as to portray dissent as dangerous and irrational.Sep 05 17:21
schestowitz“I have a hard time seeing the Zealots as any different from terrorist… I strongly believe that if September 11 showed us anything, it was that zealots” — Rob EnderleSep 05 17:22
[H]omerI mean, let's say I buy a computer with Windows installed. Why would I care if people said "Windows sucks". It /does/ - fact. It's true. Why would I defend Microsoft? What would I gain?Sep 05 17:22
schestowitz“Linux is being widely used on the desktop in the third world, where applications are limited and labor is inexpensive…” — Rob EnderleSep 05 17:22
schestowitz“many Linux supporters are a bunch of potty-mouthed malcontents. Enterprises are better off staying away from Linux and open source” — Rob EnderleSep 05 17:22
schestowitz“I saw what appeared to be a word-for-word copy of about every third line of code in the central module of the Linux kernel” — Rob EnderleSep 05 17:22
schestowitz“I started writing about Linux because I was told I couldn’t and the more people told me I couldn’t, and particularly when they said ‘or else,’ the more the Linux dirty laundry became attractive to me” — Rob EnderleSep 05 17:23
[H]omerThis is why I contend that anyone who defends Microsoft must be connected with them somehow, otherwise there simple is no motivation.Sep 05 17:24
schestowitzHe's connected with themSep 05 17:24
*benJIman wonders why none of the regulars in this channel (other than schestowitz) contribute to the boyblog.Sep 05 17:24
[H]omerSo what does that tell us about Mono, Gnome, et al?Sep 05 17:24
schestowitzPerlow wrote about it.Sep 05 17:24
schestowitzHe's having cocktail parties in Remond (at least one)Sep 05 17:24
schestowitzbenJIman: they doSep 05 17:25
[H]omerJody Goldberg contributed to the ultimate ratification of OOXML, for example.Sep 05 17:25
schestowitzI don't think there's a relationship though.Sep 05 17:25
benJImanschestowitz: I havn't seen a post by anyone other than you in over a year.Sep 05 17:25
schestowitzThat's selfishness.Sep 05 17:25
[H]omerDi Icaza constantly praises Microsoft ... even going for interviews, and fawning over them.Sep 05 17:25
schestowitzbenJIman: time for you to read BNSep 05 17:25
schestowitzNovell's executives too. Well, they visit MicrosofttSep 05 17:26
schestowitzIn many ways, those two companies are already conjoined.Sep 05 17:26
benJImanschestowitz: Can you link me to an article not posted by you?Sep 05 17:26
schestowitzhttp://boycottnovell.com/2008/05/27/...Sep 05 17:27
benJImanOh, you still posted it so I didn't notice.Sep 05 17:29
benJImanWhy don't you give other people authorship permissions?Sep 05 17:30
[H]omerThat's my articleSep 05 17:30
[H]omerI gave permissionSep 05 17:30
schestowitzbenJIman: I had people approach me to write stuff. I asked Shane whether they give them an account.Sep 05 17:31
schestowitz[H]omer: benJIman is an OpenSUSE guy. He was at SUSE (the old one) weeks ago. He stays because he's polite, but he's not here to helpSep 05 17:31
[H]omerFancy's himself as a "moderator", does he?Sep 05 17:32
schestowitzIt's a polite heckler more likeSep 05 17:32
schestowitzLike Timmy FunkenbuschSep 05 17:32
[H]omerjust boot himSep 05 17:33
benJImanNo I was wondering why [H]omer and MinceR et al did not post articles.Sep 05 17:33
[H]omerIf he's not part of the solution, he's part of the problemSep 05 17:33
*benJIman rofls.Sep 05 17:33
schestowitzWell..Sep 05 17:33
schestowitzIt would be used against us.Sep 05 17:33
schestowitzI don't delete comments in BN, so I don't boot people, either.Sep 05 17:34
[H]omerYou're too tolerant. I wouldn't have the patience for such people.Sep 05 17:35
*benJIman wonders what the solution is.Sep 05 17:37
schestowitz[H]omer: no, just let it be.Sep 05 17:38
schestowitzThere's also FunkyPenguin (andrew), who is another OpenSUSE person. They are usually quiet.Sep 05 17:38
schestowitzbenJIman is here to shout out in the opensuse channel is there's something that requires their intervention (based on what I can gather)Sep 05 17:41
benJImanThis channel hardly requires anyone's intervention.Sep 05 17:42
[H]omerThen why are you here?Sep 05 17:43
[H]omerAre you a Choob-bot by any chance?Sep 05 17:43
benJImanI already said.Sep 05 17:43
[H]omerHumour meSep 05 17:43
benJIman14:03:24 < benJIman> I'm here because it's entertaining.Sep 05 17:43
[H]omerGlad we could helpSep 05 17:44
schestowitz[H]omer: he's fooling you.Sep 05 17:44
[H]omerDuhSep 05 17:44
schestowitzHe has a history of  shouting out to openSUSE developers, who then resort to r'iots'.Sep 05 17:44
benJImanYou are welcome to join the opensuse channels if you don't believe me.Sep 05 17:44
schestowitzbenJIman: what for? For laughs?Sep 05 17:45
schestowitzI haven't things to find there.Sep 05 17:45
benJImanIf you are afraid of what we talk about.Sep 05 17:45
schestowitzIt would also be disrespectful for me to join it.Sep 05 17:45
schestowitzI'm already on #mandriva constantly.Sep 05 17:45
benJImanYou seem to think we plot against you.Sep 05 17:45
[H]omerCorrect me if I'm wrong, but surely OpenSUSE != Novell, so why do you care if someone wants to boycott them?Sep 05 17:45
benJIman[H]omer: I don't.Sep 05 17:45
[H]omerNot that long ago, Novell wasn't even a Linux company (Netware)Sep 05 17:46
schestowitzbenJIman: you guys bent our arms before we posted some Saturday stuff that's flattering to you.Sep 05 17:46
schestowitzBesides, you slam everything I write to criticise OpenSUSE, so I'm more cautious.Sep 05 17:46
schestowitzBut that need not be the case.Sep 05 17:46
benJImanWell it's usually inaccurate.Sep 05 17:46
schestowitz[H]omer: Novell is a Linux company?!?!?!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHA?Sep 05 17:46
schestowitzI'm going trhough Novell news at this very moment.Sep 05 17:47
[H]omerNow it isSep 05 17:47
schestowitzIt's all about identity management (proprietary) and other such junk.Sep 05 17:47
schestowitzLegacy stuff...Sep 05 17:47
[H]omerIt's like saying that "Microsoft is a Linux company" just because they control SUSE by proxy.Sep 05 17:47
benJImanControl suse eh.Sep 05 17:48
[H]omerYes.Sep 05 17:48
benJImanIn what way?Sep 05 17:48
[H]omerNovell owns SUSE. Microsoft pwnes Novell.Sep 05 17:48
schestowitzbe sure Miucrosoft brags about it.Sep 05 17:49
[H]omerIt's part of their little "protection" racket.Sep 05 17:49
schestowitzJust days ago, Ramj used Novell/SUSE to argue that Mcirosoft and FOSS are buddies.Sep 05 17:49
[H]omerOpenSUSE, OTOH is a community distro.Sep 05 17:49
benJImanIt's openSUSE btw.Sep 05 17:49
schestowitzThis may not fool you, but it's good enough to use against the Judge Jacksons and Neelies of the world.Sep 05 17:50
[H]omerWe shouldn't blame openSUSE for Novell's mmistakesSep 05 17:50
schestowitzit's OpenSUSESep 05 17:50


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