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10.12.08

IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: October 11th, 2008 – Part 2

Posted in IRC Logs at 3:41 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

GNOME Gedit

Enter the IRC channel now

foobar__087 s/stats/states/ Oct 11 20:59
MinceR when you could get something better for free Oct 11 20:59
AlbertoP and they were windows based Oct 11 20:59
MinceR oh, we all know how smart people in parliaments are Oct 11 20:59
AlbertoP foobar__087, I don’t use SLED either…and I understood you :) Oct 11 20:59
foobar__087 :) Oct 11 20:59
AlbertoP MinceR, well they want someone behind what they use, that’s all Oct 11 21:00
MinceR some people are happily using windows, i’m sure Oct 11 21:00
AlbertoP RH offered the same for more than twice the price, fyi Oct 11 21:00
MinceR oh, you mean suse is the only distro with paid support Oct 11 21:00
MinceR ? Oct 11 21:00
AlbertoP the offers were public Oct 11 21:00
foobar__087 MinceR what would be better in your opinion? Oct 11 21:00
MinceR i wonder what these offers from redhat and canonical are Oct 11 21:01
foobar__087 and now please don’t say buntu … Oct 11 21:01
AlbertoP MinceR, there was a public selection. The only offers were three: RH, Novell, Mandriva… Oct 11 21:01
MinceR foobar__087: red hat, kubuntu — or just about anything if there’s a support company for it Oct 11 21:01
MinceR or hiring staff yourself and using whatever you want. Oct 11 21:01
AlbertoP MinceR, RH offered it at twice the price  LOL Oct 11 21:01
schestowitz foobar__087: among Novell services you’ll find just UNIX->Linux migrations. i wrote about it last week. Oct 11 21:01
MinceR perhaps it was twice as good LOL Oct 11 21:01
AlbertoP Mandriva didn’t respond to requirements Oct 11 21:01
AlbertoP hehe be serious :) Oct 11 21:02
foobar__087 I’m sorry but kbuntu is a pos / a sad joke regarding its kde integration (besides the buntu under the skirt) Oct 11 21:02
schestowitz SLED is a good desktop, MinceR Oct 11 21:02
MinceR if price is all that matters, they can download kubuntu at 0 cost and manage it themselves Oct 11 21:02
MinceR schestowitz: so it doesn’t suck as much as opensuse? Oct 11 21:02
schestowitz There’s no point in ridiculing products from Novell because they use similar components to the rest Oct 11 21:02
MinceR where the netinstall involved typing in the IP address of an ftp server we were supposed to know beforehand? Oct 11 21:02
schestowitz MinceR: it’s just a rebranded x.1 release with better patches (better tested) Oct 11 21:02
MinceR and where a daemon started under x that screwed up keyboard handling completely until my friend (who wanted opensuse) killed it and the problem was fixed? Oct 11 21:03
AlbertoP MinceR, did someone wrote something positive about that daemon in the opensuse community? Oct 11 21:03
AlbertoP Fyi, because you need a lot of information, considering what you say, NO. We were the first to ask for its removal, and it was removed. Oct 11 21:04
schestowitz foobar__087: I agree on Kubuntu based on my limited experience with it (it’s on my other partition on this one PC). Madriva is better for KDE. Oct 11 21:04
foobar__087 MinceR sry, but imho knowing the ip from where to install during a netinstall is kinda mandatory … Oct 11 21:04
AlbertoP And probably, a product should be judged on the long run, not for a single problem. Don’t you think? Oct 11 21:04
AlbertoP foobar__087, hehe it’s not necessary anymore :-) Oct 11 21:05
AlbertoP I think :-? Oct 11 21:05
MinceR foobar__087: oh, you haven’t heard of this neat little invention called DNS? Oct 11 21:05
*AlbertoP checks… they discussed to use urls Oct 11 21:05
MinceR foobar__087: or the possibility of putting the urls/ip addresses on the install cd? Oct 11 21:06
MinceR i guess that’s just too advanced for suse Oct 11 21:06
*foobar__ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) Oct 11 21:06
AlbertoP MinceR, the problem was mainly due not to overload a reduced set of mirrors Oct 11 21:06
MinceR there’s round-robin DNS and they could have also put in a list Oct 11 21:06
MinceR and selected randomly Oct 11 21:06
AlbertoP and the netinst didn’t really bother anyone, because it is the less used installation procedure Oct 11 21:07
MinceR this isn’t rocket science! Oct 11 21:07
foobar__087 MinceR er, what does this have to do if you didn’t configure it yet – or is your whole problem that dns isn’t setup during the netinstall step so one has to enter the ip? Oct 11 21:07
MinceR it could ask for the ip address of the dns servers if it couldn’t get them via dhcp Oct 11 21:07
AlbertoP MinceR, what has this to do with the quality of SLED I don’t know though Oct 11 21:07
MinceR those i’m more likely to know Oct 11 21:07
AlbertoP SLED can’t be netinstalled ^^ Oct 11 21:07
MinceR AlbertoP: so it’s an even more retarded version of opensuse? Oct 11 21:07
*MinceR runs to buy a dozen Oct 11 21:07
AlbertoP you’ve the media, but not the repo online Oct 11 21:08
AlbertoP MinceR, no, but it’s not distribuited with a public repo. It’s commercial product, exactly as Red Hat… Oct 11 21:08
MinceR you know, the suse guys could have just forked debian and came up with a much better distro Oct 11 21:08
AlbertoP you can download the DVD Oct 11 21:08
MinceR guess what, repos can use http authentication Oct 11 21:08
AlbertoP MinceR, what is the origin of SUSE? Oct 11 21:08
foobar__087 MinceR it nefver occurred to me as a big problem but perhaps you have some point. Have you filled a bugreport so they have to fix it then? Oct 11 21:08
MinceR foobar__087: i used a distro that works instead of that. Oct 11 21:09
AlbertoP foobar__087, it’s a lost discussion :) Oct 11 21:09
foobar__087 MinceR out of curiosity – which one was that? Oct 11 21:09
MinceR at the time it was gentoo Oct 11 21:09
MinceR now i’m using kubuntu Oct 11 21:09
MinceR AlbertoP: yes, it’s a lost discussion because you don’t listen Oct 11 21:09
schestowitz AlbertoP: SUSE 11 can. Oct 11 21:10
schestowitz SLED 11 probably will. Oct 11 21:10
schestowitz (netinstalled Oct 11 21:10
AlbertoP schestowitz, can netinstall? Oct 11 21:10
kentma just installed ubuntu 8.04 on a dell latitude – owner had become infected with some windows problem – it’s an exceptionally easy install. Oct 11 21:10
schestowitz I think one of the Lizards blogged it some weeks ago. Oct 11 21:10
kentma everything seems to work out of the box, including the live keys on the keyboard. Oct 11 21:10
AlbertoP schestowitz, yes, opensuse 10.x too Oct 11 21:10
MinceR i think the one i installed for a friend was opensuse 10.x Oct 11 21:11
foobar__087 ah well, gentoo is apparently quite fine if you have the time & the knowledge. But Kubuntu is no “working distro” but a joke I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot stick – so I guess we have different requirements. Oct 11 21:11
MinceR a joke, as opposed to suse? Oct 11 21:11
AlbertoP schestowitz, I’m not sure about SLE actually. I assume they require authentication, as for patches, so they don’t allow it…but I never tried Oct 11 21:11
MinceR excuse me while i laugh my ass off at you. Oct 11 21:11
kentma I’m watching Merlin on bbc iplayer (flash) whilst playing lincity and have been playing mythtv recordings, his mp4a collection from itunes and checked his documents from ‘documents and settings’ in open-office.  everything just works. Oct 11 21:11
schestowitz kentma: yes, I never had problems installing stuff in years. Oct 11 21:11
schestowitz It depends on the PCs, I guess (h/w) Oct 11 21:11
AlbertoP ehh I’m a bit older probably ^^ Oct 11 21:12
foobar__087 MinceR e.g – I’m pretty happy with opensuse on the desktop (cause I couldn’t care less about that MS deal since IMHO it doesn’t affect anyone) and CentOS on the server. Oct 11 21:12
schestowitz I just assume everything works when it boots. Oct 11 21:12
kentma schestowitz: the hardware support is fantastic.  full wireless networking, everything. Oct 11 21:12
AlbertoP I’ve been using suse quite a bit before the N acquisition, and the agreement 8-) Oct 11 21:12
schestowitz Network, sound, X… Oct 11 21:12
kentma yup, all of that.  opengl (intel card), even got wobbly windows by selecting “higher” effects (or some such). Oct 11 21:13
MinceR foobar__087: i’m sure sending a part of the money paid for computers that have ballnux preinstalled doesn’t affect anyone Oct 11 21:13
AlbertoP when debian was a text install distro, gentoo was hum…trying to compile, red hat was RPM breakage, Mandriva was “Oh god the deps”, suse had a nice smooth user experience, with perfect hardware detection and automated services also on 2.4 kernels… Oct 11 21:13
MinceR a nice smooth user experience, such as entering the ip address of an ftp server by hand Oct 11 21:13
schestowitz kentma: all the keyboards special keys (sleep, volume, etc) are autoconfigged nicely by Mandriva Oct 11 21:14
AlbertoP MinceR, oh I forgot…ubuntu didn’t exist! :) Oct 11 21:14
schestowitz There was a CD that came with the machine. Oct 11 21:14
MinceR because we all know that nice smooth user experience means that the installer is graphica Oct 11 21:14
MinceR l Oct 11 21:14
kentma the ntfs resize worked really well – windowsxp wanted to chkdsk the drive, but then booted and worked just as badly, with all of the spyware workign perfectly after the resize.  all special keys work in Ubuntu, too. Oct 11 21:14
MinceR because we’re scared to death if the display is in text mode Oct 11 21:14
schestowitz For Windows, an installation of s/w is need ed to make these keys work :-D Oct 11 21:14
MinceR why are using a computer again? Oct 11 21:14
foobar__087 MinceR so don’t buy one that has “Ballnux” (whatever that might be) installed but only the hardware. The choice is yours – so the problem is? Oct 11 21:14
MinceR foobar__087: many vendors only offer windows or ballnux Oct 11 21:14
AlbertoP MinceR, is installation the only thing that affects user experience? LOL Oct 11 21:14
MinceR foobar__087: ballnux is any distro whose producers have bought into the microsoft patent racket. Oct 11 21:15
MinceR foobar__087: such as suse, opensuse, xandros, turbolinux and linspire. Oct 11 21:15
MinceR AlbertoP: no, the crappy keyboard handling affects it too, LOL Oct 11 21:15
AlbertoP MinceR, hum? Oct 11 21:16
MinceR that’s what opensuse did — read your buffer Oct 11 21:16
AlbertoP right because ubuntu is always perfect hehe Oct 11 21:16
schestowitz Freespire? Oct 11 21:16
MinceR compared to suse, it is Oct 11 21:16
AlbertoP let’s be real for once…all the distros has some problem Oct 11 21:17
AlbertoP you don’t really evaluate them for a bug in something Oct 11 21:17
schestowitz OpenSUSE is not necessarily a Ballnux. It’s its preparation.. It’s like an unborn Ballny. Oct 11 21:17
MinceR and *suse has multiple problems, including the one where you keep funding the bastards who ruined the IT industry Oct 11 21:17
AlbertoP if you are interested, you report it and see how they react Oct 11 21:17
MinceR – and who are still trying to remove your option to use any version of linux at all. Oct 11 21:17
AlbertoP schestowitz, we enjoy the same pleasures actually :) Oct 11 21:17
AlbertoP opensuse is the base for SLE Oct 11 21:18
schestowitz Huh? :-o Oct 11 21:18
AlbertoP I mean that the software is exactly the same Oct 11 21:18
schestowitz Oh, “we” as in “You’re SUSE” Oct 11 21:18
MinceR and i presume there’s a reason why i’ve kept hearing how suse sucks from my friends for a long time. Oct 11 21:18
foobar__087 MinceR I’m sorry but buying a computer without a preinstalled OS isn’t really hard (at least in my part of the world). So bitching about loads of computers that have a preinstalled OS you don’t like doesn’t sound very bright. Simply vote with your money and don’t buy them. Oct 11 21:18
MinceR foobar__087: it can be really hard if you’re looking for a laptop made by a reputable manufacturer. Oct 11 21:19
MinceR foobar__087: i’ve been there so i know. Oct 11 21:19
AlbertoP MinceR, really? You can always ask for a refund of the OS… Oct 11 21:19
schestowitz Even Ubuntu mobile/Remix is taited. Oct 11 21:19
AlbertoP _always_ Oct 11 21:19
schestowitz Microsoft codecs. Can’t opt out… Oct 11 21:19
kentma foobar__087: I doubt I could find any ordinary person on the street who would be able to find a PC, or a laptop, without Windows or OSX pre-installed.  It’s specialist knowledge. Oct 11 21:20
MinceR foobar__087: also, not everyone is bright enough to make the correct decision — as long as people buy preinstalled suse because “it’s linux”, they’re harming themselves and the community. Oct 11 21:20
schestowitz That’s why I bought my PC without an O/S. Oct 11 21:20
schestowitz I won’t pay Dell joining Novell/Microsoft, which _they did_ Oct 11 21:20
MinceR AlbertoP: yes, i can always _ask_ but i won’t necessarily be given one Oct 11 21:20
schestowitz *pay for Dell Oct 11 21:20
AlbertoP MinceR, no wait…it’s ubuntu saying “Ubuntu is Linux”, not really SUSE Oct 11 21:20
MinceR people have to fight tooth and nail and often fail Oct 11 21:20
MinceR AlbertoP: hm, what is suse saying then? Oct 11 21:20
AlbertoP MinceR, oh no no you can get it Oct 11 21:20
MinceR i remember the guy who had to sign an NDA with lenovo so they’d refund vista for him Oct 11 21:21
schestowitz Ubuntu……….Linux for human beings. Oct 11 21:21
AlbertoP MinceR, suse has the same agreement with vendors RH has. They preinstall SUSE on certain machines. That’s all. Oct 11 21:21
schestowitz Not: Ubuntu is Linux……. for human beings. Oct 11 21:21
kentma MinceR: is that even legal? Oct 11 21:21
MinceR i don’t know Oct 11 21:21
foobar__087 kentma you go in the shop and say “Without OS please” – The question is if poeple want this or not. Oct 11 21:21
MinceR foobar__087: question if the shop will sell it to you that way Oct 11 21:21
kentma foobar__087: I’ve tried that – it doesn’t work. Oct 11 21:21
AlbertoP schestowitz, you’d agree that Mark Shuttleworth goes around speaking as the king of linux…while he just steals from debian and adds something here and there… Oct 11 21:21
kentma foobar__087: the response I’ve had has been “there’s no demand” Oct 11 21:22
schestowitz The question is about policing. Oct 11 21:22
kentma foobar__087: most people could not do this. Oct 11 21:22
MinceR i haven’t heard him speaking as the king of linux Oct 11 21:22
schestowitz This type of buncling should be made illegal Oct 11 21:22
kentma foobar__087: I know how to, but most people do not. Oct 11 21:22
MinceR but i’ve seen him fund a debian fork that’s really good Oct 11 21:22
schestowitz In France, it’a relady being pursed by consumer groups Oct 11 21:22
AlbertoP well, it’s pretty easy to obtain Windows refund Oct 11 21:22
MinceR well, i don’t expect that bundling to go away anytime soon in the backwater country i’m in (hungary) Oct 11 21:22
foobar__087 MinceR I don’t agree. When they pay for Suse they give Novell money which helps to finance their developers who work on KDE, Gnome, Also, OpenOffice, the Kernel and probably every other bigger linux project. Oct 11 21:22
kentma schestowitz: so it should be, too.  the present situation is appalling. Oct 11 21:22
AlbertoP just don’t activate it, and ask when buying if you buy online (DELL) Oct 11 21:23
MinceR foobar__087: and some of that money goes to microsoft and helps finance their efforts to crush linu Oct 11 21:23
MinceR x Oct 11 21:23
schestowitz AlbertoP: *LOL* easy to get a refund? Oct 11 21:23
AlbertoP I did that once because I had already a licence Oct 11 21:23
kentma schestowitz: dont’ feed the trolls… Oct 11 21:23
AlbertoP schestowitz, yes, it is… Oct 11 21:23
MinceR AlbertoP: why don’t you go and see if dell even offers an option without windows for most of their laptops? Oct 11 21:23
MinceR protip: they don’t Oct 11 21:23
AlbertoP MinceR, Dell actually sells ubuntu on their laptops ^^ Oct 11 21:23
foobar__087 MinceR why would some of that money go to Microsoft? Last time I checked Novell makes money from that deal. Oct 11 21:23
MinceR also, iirc dell has bought into the patent racket under the carpet Oct 11 21:24
kentma MinceR: it would be much better for the troll to find the list and bring it back. Oct 11 21:24
MinceR so if you buy a dell even with ubuntu, ballmer gets paid. Oct 11 21:24
MinceR foobar__087: afaik money goes both ways between m$ and novell as they together try to crush linux. Oct 11 21:24
schestowitz AlbertoP: Dell charges money for their ‘Linux’. Oct 11 21:24
AlbertoP schestowitz, not anymore. See DirectToDel Oct 11 21:25
AlbertoP l Oct 11 21:25
schestowitz Here in the UK I heard of Novatech back in 2004. They are a rarity. They totally deduct Windows tax. The PCs are Linux ready. Oct 11 21:25
foobar__087 MinceR that is wrong. Novell makes much more money from that deal than they pay (if they pay something at all). Which is one of the reasons I think that deal is good (cause it just gets them some money). Oct 11 21:25
MinceR just Oct 11 21:26
foobar__087 just? Oct 11 21:26
MinceR never mind that ballmer can point at that deal and say it proves his claims of patent infringement Oct 11 21:26
kentma foobar__087: money is clearly moving both ways. Oct 11 21:26
MinceR just keep ignoring the facts and you’ll be happy. Oct 11 21:26
AlbertoP schestowitz, however, for consumers it is not as hard as you say to get refunded for Windows, especially in Europe. Really. You simply need to contact your vendor and not to activate your licence. If you ask that at the moment of purchase, you won’t be charged for the licence by DELL for example. Oct 11 21:26
foobar__087 MinceR as he can point now at the kernel and cry “IT  INFRINGES 12723486234 PATENTS!” – point being it doesn’t affect anyone. Oct 11 21:27
MinceR foobar__087: it does Oct 11 21:27
MinceR foobar__087: it tells the uninitiated that this choice of platform is dangerous Oct 11 21:27
MinceR that’s the whole point of FUD. Oct 11 21:27
schestowitz Economics of FUD… BusinessWeek 2007 Oct 11 21:27
foobar__087 no cause there is no ground to base those claims on except FUD and we both no that this isn’t the right thing to build a house on ;) Oct 11 21:28
foobar__087 s/no/know/ Oct 11 21:28
MinceR (m$ should be sued for spouting those claims btw) Oct 11 21:28
kentma foobar__087: FUD is very well understood – how could you possibly excuse it?  It’s despicable behaviour. Oct 11 21:28
schestowitz Should be reposted in the Gangster Tribute Oct 11 21:28
schestowitz Or Gangster Tribune Oct 11 21:28
schestowitz Where is the policing? Oct 11 21:28
foobar__087 kentma I’m not excusing it but I’m saying that FUD doesn’t matter to any legal patent issues. Oct 11 21:28
AlbertoP MinceR, do you think MS is succeeding in it? Oct 11 21:29
MinceR AlbertoP: well, it certainly got novell to sign a deal with them Oct 11 21:29
schestowitz foobar__087 is an opensuse guy, kentma. It’s a troll. Oct 11 21:29
MinceR AlbertoP: also turbolinux, linspire, xandros, dell Oct 11 21:29
kentma foobar__087: it does matter.  I know, I’ve spent hours discussing these issues with the legal folk in my $employer. Oct 11 21:29
MinceR AlbertoP: the more important effects would be more difficult to gauge Oct 11 21:29
schestowitz That’s why I  asked question when someone called “foobar” came here.. Oct 11 21:29
foobar__087 as in he can claim what he (Balmer) wants until he puts his cards on the table. And if he really had any claims he had crushed linux long time ago before it grew as big as it is now. Oct 11 21:29
AlbertoP MinceR, the deal was signed for other reasons. The point is, do you think people gave up on RH to use a MS -protected distro, for example? Oct 11 21:29
MinceR AlbertoP: that is, linux adoption in businesses Oct 11 21:29
kentma schestowitz: ah, foobar__087 is another troll?  wow. Oct 11 21:29
MinceR AlbertoP: they might have, and as i’ve said that’s more difficult to gauge Oct 11 21:30
kentma It would explain the apparent foolishness. Oct 11 21:30
AlbertoP schestowitz, am I a troll also? :-) Oct 11 21:30
AlbertoP I mean “using opensuse => troll”? :P Oct 11 21:30
kentma schestowitz: another one for the .ignore file… :-) Oct 11 21:30
schestowitz kentma: maybe called in by AlbertoP  (reinforcement) Oct 11 21:30
schestowitz The OpenSUSE do this a lot Oct 11 21:30
MinceR AlbertoP: well, either you’re a troll or your judgement is clouded by your financial interests or you’re militantly ignorant. Oct 11 21:30
foobar__087 excuse me? So I’m trolling cause I don’t buy into this patent FUD story but believe that there aren’t any valid claims and therefore no threat? Oct 11 21:30
AlbertoP kentma, without us…your channel would not exist! Oct 11 21:30
AlbertoP what a piety eh? Oct 11 21:30
kentma schestowitz: AlbertoP is clearly a troll, and it would appear that foobar__087 is, too. Oct 11 21:31
schestowitz When things heat up, spies like benJIman go to #opensuse to invite some friends for backup Oct 11 21:31
AlbertoP schestowitz, you forgot benJIman ! Oct 11 21:31
schestowitz Been seen many times befor.e Oct 11 21:31
AlbertoP schestowitz, looool Oct 11 21:31
MinceR AlbertoP: i think we’d all prefer if there was no need for this channel to exist. Oct 11 21:31
AlbertoP hahahaha Oct 11 21:31
AlbertoP schestowitz, do you really think benJIman convinced me to come? Oct 11 21:31
MinceR did it take a lot of convincing? Oct 11 21:31
foobar__087 kentma that “They don’t agree with my point of view and therefore they are trolling” doesn’t really sound very bright. Oct 11 21:32
kentma schestowitz: in a way, it’s kind of good to know that these people cannot be this stupid, that really, they’re just being paid to spin a line.  I’d really hate to think that anyone could eb this dumb. Oct 11 21:32
AlbertoP and btw, foobar__087 is not around on opensuse channels, are you? Oct 11 21:32
AlbertoP MinceR, actually he didn’t ask :) Oct 11 21:32
kentma foobar__087: you’re trolling, and you’re not fooling anyone here. Oct 11 21:32
schestowitz foobar__087 does not exist Oct 11 21:32
schestowitz That’s the point Oct 11 21:32
kentma foobar__087: you need a far more subtle approach to push your venom. Oct 11 21:32
schestowitz It’s a nym Oct 11 21:32
AlbertoP MinceR, as I said I’ve been using SUSE long before Novell and openSUSE…I don’t need to be convinced ;) Oct 11 21:33
schestowitz He even nymshifted earlier. Oct 11 21:33
foobar__087 kentma Again, how am I trolling? Cause I don’t agree with your point of view or because I don’t buy this patent threat story or … ? Oct 11 21:33
kentma schestowitz: i’m not surprised.  troll tactics are amazingly unimaginative. Oct 11 21:33
kentma foobar__087: go away, please. Oct 11 21:33
schestowitz foobar__087 could even be AlbertoP in theory but the IPs don’t intersectl Oct 11 21:33
AlbertoP kentma, as I said before, troll said by someone founding its existance on trolling is a compliment ;) Oct 11 21:33
schestowitz It could be Ronnie Hovo-sapient. Oct 11 21:33
foobar__087 schestowitz fyi I`m using irc2go Oct 11 21:33
schestowitz Fair enough. Oct 11 21:34
schestowitz Are all of them called foobar then? Oct 11 21:34
schestowitz mib calls them mib_xxxx Oct 11 21:34
kentma schestowitz: bound to be :-) Oct 11 21:34
AlbertoP schestowitz, I’m not multiple… Oct 11 21:34
schestowitz I know. Oct 11 21:34
foobar__087 schestowitz no, one can choose a nick during join – I enter foobar everywhere, an old habbit Oct 11 21:34
schestowitz I was being hypothetical.. well, hypothetically speaking Oct 11 21:34
AlbertoP schestowitz, and to be honest, I would like a serious opposition to Novell…it would help to fix the issues where they are, when it’s the case. The problem is that some of the good points are lost in all the fud. Oct 11 21:35
kentma schestowitz: have you been watching and/or reading the Richard Dawkins stuff lately? Oct 11 21:35
*AlbertoP grabs Geeko and offers him a snack :) Oct 11 21:36
AlbertoP btw, do you know who Geeko is right?! Oct 11 21:36
foobar__087 So, to come back to my question. Could you please explain me how I was trolling? I was trying to be polite, not to insult anyone and so on. So all I “did” is that I don’t share your point of ciew regarding the patent issue. Why is this trolling? Oct 11 21:36
foobar__087 s/ciew/view/ Oct 11 21:36
kentma foobar__087: I know from personal experience that you are quite wrong.  Please go away. Oct 11 21:37
AlbertoP Geeko: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jzb/2914139185/ and http://www.flickr.com/photos/jimgris/2912355796/ :-) Oct 11 21:38
schestowitz schestowitz: I haven’t no. I notice that Stephen Fry has just published one book chapter in his blog. Oct 11 21:38
foobar__087 kentma “I know from personal experience” isn’t really what I would call “argumentation”. Wrong regarding the patent issue / disagreeing with you or wrong with what? Oct 11 21:38
schestowitz foobar__087: you seem to have come here to assist AlbertoP’s position, but I could be wrong. You never answered my Q: which distro do you use? Oct 11 21:39
kentma foobar__087: let’s take this really slowly, then.  MS take a position on patents.  You think they’re wrong?  You think that they’re wasting their time?  You think they’re stupid?  Please explain to me why they’re stupid. Oct 11 21:39
AlbertoP MinceR, don’t you like suse mascotte? :) Oct 11 21:39
MinceR i don’t Oct 11 21:40
schestowitz Joe’s Flickr album… big Geeko Oct 11 21:40
MinceR because i don’t like suse either Oct 11 21:40
AlbertoP hehe right… Oct 11 21:40
foobar__087 schestowitz First of all I`m not here to support AlbertoP and, as I already told kentma before I happily use openSUSE on the desktop and CentOS on the server (which was why I was asking him before what problems he encountered). Oct 11 21:40
AlbertoP schestowitz, hehe I’m trying to put my hands on one of those plushes…but hum, quite rare it seems, and not sold :\ Oct 11 21:41
kentma foobar__087: I don’t recall you saying anything to me about opensuse or centos. Oct 11 21:41
schestowitz He didn’t Oct 11 21:41
AlbertoP I think we talked about that some time ago though :-? Oct 11 21:42
schestowitz Unless my XChat missed a strike, Oct 11 21:42
kentma schestowitz: that’s what I thought… another one for the .ignore file. Oct 11 21:42
schestowitz *stroke Oct 11 21:42
foobar__087 kentma I thihnk they way they (MS) act is understandable (since it is a bussiness) but it doesn’t affect me you or anyone else the slightest bit since their whole patent threat isn’t based on any valid grounds but only fud. So I couldn’t care less. Oct 11 21:42
foobar__087 kentma see above, I told you ;) Oct 11 21:42
AlbertoP kentma, using opensuse is not an automatic “to be ignored”, you know? Oct 11 21:42
kentma foobar__087:  you think businesses have to be stupid, then? Oct 11 21:43
schestowitz Microsoft FUD pattern: “Don’t get me wrong, I use Linux on the servers, but it’s not ready for desktop | it’s just for servers | it’s all command line | other” Oct 11 21:43
AlbertoP kentma, fyi I’ve been using fedora, ubuntu, mandriva also…still nothing beats opensuse on the desktop for what I need. Oct 11 21:43
MinceR the way m$ acts is understandable — they’re evil assholes and this is the only thing they can do Oct 11 21:43
kentma schestowitz: I agree, foobar__087 is using all the classic fud lines. Oct 11 21:43
MinceR they know they can’t compete based on the merits of their products as they have none. Oct 11 21:43
schestowitz AlbertoP:  using opensuse and coming to #opensuse does not make one wrong, but it can be a sign Oct 11 21:43
MinceR foobar__087: and yes it affects us all. Oct 11 21:43
AlbertoP :) http://www.novell.com/linux/desktop/ Oct 11 21:44
foobar__087 schestowitz please “grep -i centos” on your log – its hard with that web client and it doesn’t show times either. Oct 11 21:44
schestowitz Predudice is not good, but facts help telling apart foobar_65 and foob4r_32324i323 Oct 11 21:44
schestowitz foobar__087: the logs are flushed every night Oct 11 21:44
foobar__087 er what? I’m foobar_087 Oct 11 21:45
kentma foobar__087: according to my log, you mentioned centos to MinceR, not to me. Oct 11 21:45
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foobar__087 schestowitz I mean the current log since I’m in here for less then an hour under that name. Oct 11 21:45
kentma foobar__087: yes, I’ve checked, and you were speaking to someone else, not to me. Oct 11 21:45
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MinceR that’s a buffer, not a log Oct 11 21:45
foobar__087 kentma I’m sorry, then I mixed you up. Oct 11 21:45
MinceR it isn’t written to disk Oct 11 21:45
kentma foobar__087: yes you did.  What else do you mix up? Oct 11 21:45
foobar__087 kentma nothing? schestowitz & MinceR just claimed that I never said I would use openSUSE & CentOS which wasn’t the case. Oct 11 21:46
MinceR when did i claim that? Oct 11 21:46
kentma foobar__087: I told you that you were wrong.  i was correct.  Did you check?  No, you didn’t.  I checked, and proved you wrong.  What else do you not bother to check? Oct 11 21:46
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foobar__087 kentma I already said that this webclient is hard to read without an option to search the log. So please forgive me for mixing up your nicks, I hope you survive it. Oct 11 21:48
AlbertoP foobar__087, they’ll survive :-) Oct 11 21:48
kentma foobar__087: you were wrong.  I told you, and you didn’t accept it.  what else are you wrong about? Oct 11 21:48
foobar__087 MinceR Now, regarding those patents: In what way would that be different to the age old MS claim that the linux kernel violates ~290 patents? Oct 11 21:49
MinceR foobar__087: in the way that a company that owns a distro lends weight to that claim Oct 11 21:49
AlbertoP from logs: Oct 11 21:49
AlbertoP ott 11 16:16:29 <AlbertoP>ehh I’m a bit older probably ^^ Oct 11 21:49
AlbertoP ott 11 16:16:31 <foobar__087>MinceR e.g – I’m pretty happy with opensuse on the desktop (cause I couldn’t care less about that MS deal since IMHO it doesn’t affect anyone) and CentOS on the server. Oct 11 21:49
AlbertoP ott 11 16:16:35 <schestowitz>I just assume everything works when it boots. Oct 11 21:49
foobar__087 kentma Yes, I mixed your nicks up, so I was wrong, so I was never right, so you were always right! Are you kidding me? Oct 11 21:49
kentma foobar__087: so what else are you wrong about? Oct 11 21:50
MinceR he’s wrong about a lot of things Oct 11 21:50
AlbertoP foobar__087, you know…we probably met the two most perfect humans in the world, and in the same chatroom! ;) Oct 11 21:50
kentma MinceR: Indeed so.  His willingness to maintain a line in spite of being corrected was, to my mind, very telling about his approach to such issues. Oct 11 21:50
schestowitz Ars Technica must be playing Digg or something. News two days later and FP for just 3 paragraphs: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.a… Oct 11 21:50
foobar__087 Nah, apparently we are wrong with everything cause I mixed kentma nick with MinceR nick. Oct 11 21:51
schestowitz Heh.’News’: (2008-10-11) Macromedia Announces Flash Player For Linux! http://top40-charts.com/news/MP3-and-More/M… Oct 11 21:51
kentma MinceR: clearly, he sees nothing significant about being visibly mistaken, even having been corrected by more than one person, and refusing to accept the correction. Oct 11 21:51
AlbertoP foobar__087, and you use opensuse, like me ;) Oct 11 21:51
MinceR kentma: it’s just business as usual for him Oct 11 21:51
kentma MinceR: clearly, he’s used to being corrected, and used to ignoring the corrections – hey, snap! Oct 11 21:51
MinceR :) Oct 11 21:51
foobar__087 kentma My willingness to maintain which line? I already addmitted that I mixed your nicks, sincerly appologized and totally fail to see where I have to addmit that I’m obviously wrong so please enlighten me. Oct 11 21:52
schestowitz foobar__087: sorry, I missed that bit about CentOS. My bad. Oct 11 21:52
kentma foobar__087: go away, please. Oct 11 21:52
foobar__087 schestowitz no worries. Oct 11 21:52
AlbertoP foobar__087, stop apologizing… he has nothing to say, so he just tries to attack you :) Oct 11 21:52
kentma schestowitz: he was quite wrong about to whom he was speaking – even after being corrected. Oct 11 21:53
AlbertoP kentma, and you look quite hard to understand too :) Oct 11 21:53
foobar__087 kentma so I didn’t say that I mixed you up with MinceR, yeah, whatever then … Oct 11 21:53
kentma schestowitz: he’s also happy to accept unsupported claims of liability as acceptable business practice.  this is an unsavoury person, at best. Oct 11 21:54
foobar__087 MinceR So where is the current patent threat different from the year old claims that the kernel itself violates various patents? Oct 11 21:54
MinceR foobar__087: if you keep repeating that question, i’ll keep pasting my answer to it. Oct 11 21:54
MinceR 235406 < MinceR> foobar__087: in the way that a company that owns a distro lends weight to that claim Oct 11 21:55
kentma foobar__087: stop this, foobar__087.  how can there be a “current patent threat” – go away, please. Oct 11 21:55
schestowitz kentma: don’t worry. The OpenSUSE expose themselves for the Microsoft apologists some of them have become. Oct 11 21:55
AlbertoP MinceR, hehe did you read the agreement? :) Oct 11 21:55
MinceR it’s not really a threat though Oct 11 21:55
foobar__087 MinceR please once more since that backlog here is a pita. Oct 11 21:55
MinceR it’s FUD Oct 11 21:55
schestowitz It hurts them more than it does damage to our cause. Oct 11 21:55
MinceR foobar__087: if you have no backlog, use your memory ;) Oct 11 21:55
kentma schestowitz: It’s really sad, to my mind.  There’s really no need for this. Oct 11 21:55
schestowitz They also attack coverage of Microsoft dirty tricks in BN because they MUST kill the messenger to purify Novell’s reputation. Oct 11 21:56
AlbertoP MinceR, right official documents are fud, your words are The Truth huh Oct 11 21:56
MinceR i mean, the patent claims aren’t the thread, but that some people can be made to believe them. Oct 11 21:56
foobar__087 MinceR Yes, so we agree on this. And further it goes like this: Since it is only FUD it is no ground for valid legal claims and therefore it doesn’t affect me and I couldn’t care less. Oct 11 21:56
kentma schestowitz: it’s way way way too late to purify Novell’s rep, I’m afraid. Oct 11 21:56
MinceR AlbertoP: FUD is FUD, the truth is the truth and you’re wrong. Oct 11 21:56
AlbertoP haha Oct 11 21:56
AlbertoP right Oct 11 21:56
AlbertoP this is the foundation of a productive discussion! Oct 11 21:56
MinceR foobar__087: it’s no ground for legal claims but it’s ground for some people to be afraid of legal claims. Oct 11 21:56
MinceR AlbertoP: facts are the foundation of a productive discussion. Oct 11 21:57
MinceR AlbertoP: you have yet to present any facts. Oct 11 21:57
kentma foobar__087: it’s not about you, is it.  Unless you think that Microsoft are truly stupd – something you keep ignoring in your fud-pushing here. Oct 11 21:57
AlbertoP MinceR, oh no, you’re are the one thinking to a cospiracy, so you’re the one who needs to provide evidence. Oct 11 21:57
MinceR AlbertoP: which i already have. Oct 11 21:57
schestowitz Linux Foundation is hiring:  http://jobs.cmswire.com/job/629/ Oct 11 21:58
foobar__087 MinceR Yes. So it far from a nice bussiness practic but basically its the peoples problem if they believe this bullshit. Point being there is no threat since there is no ground to base this threat on. Oct 11 21:58
MinceR what is it with you trolls that you can only keep asking the same questions over and over? Oct 11 21:58
AlbertoP you provided links to something that can be defined an opinion, not a fact Oct 11 21:58
foobar__087 *it is far from being a Oct 11 21:58
kentma foobar__087: so you are saying that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 21:58
AlbertoP you related that to MS-N agreement, which is not proved by those documents Oct 11 21:58
MinceR foobar__087: as long as enough people believe this bullshit it can cause problems Oct 11 21:58
MinceR foobar__087: and since novell is assisting microsoft in spreading these lies, novell is doing the community harm. Oct 11 21:59
MinceR foobar__087: and that can’t be excused. Oct 11 21:59
AlbertoP MinceR, do you understand that the “patent protection” is a really small part of the agreement? :) Oct 11 21:59
schestowitz They put it in brochures and all. Oct 11 21:59
MinceR AlbertoP: it’s an important part Oct 11 21:59
schestowitz Also the patent BS, which is invalid in the EU when they disseminate it. Oct 11 21:59
AlbertoP MinceR, oh not really…considering it covers 2-3 things Oct 11 21:59
MinceR AlbertoP: i don’t care what bullshit they’re trying to hide it in Oct 11 21:59
MinceR AlbertoP: novell is still helping microsoft in their deals and they can’t be forgiven for that. Oct 11 22:00
schestowitz AlbertoP: yes, fight for Hyper-V, for OOXML, for patents. Oct 11 22:00
schestowitz Yes, 3 is worse than 1 Oct 11 22:00
AlbertoP MinceR, right…better to feed the fud. Don’t you think that your activity is helping them even more than N? Oct 11 22:00
schestowitz Everything Novell agreed to is a fight on FOSS Oct 11 22:00
MinceR AlbertoP: if novell was honest about promoting linux, they wouldn’t make such pacts. Oct 11 22:00
schestowitz In exchange it gets a life$$$line. Oct 11 22:00
MinceR AlbertoP: what? Oct 11 22:00
AlbertoP schestowitz, no, hyper-v is not involved at all, at least not the open version Oct 11 22:00
foobar__087 MinceR Sure, if people believe this FUD the perhaps buy into it and get screwed, we agree on this. My whole point just is that if you don’t believe them you there is no reason you should / have to care what they say since they have no ground to base there claims on. That is all I’m saying, agreed? Oct 11 22:00
schestowitz “Here, Novell, here’s some money… now go kick Mr. Ubuntu in the crotch” Oct 11 22:01
AlbertoP OOXML support is provided as a _separate_ plugin Oct 11 22:01
AlbertoP so there is no injection in code, which is what worries OSS guys Oct 11 22:01
schestowitz AlbertoP: your understanding of this is simplified and flaws. Oct 11 22:01
kentma foobar__087: so, you’re saying that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:01
schestowitz You guys just spread misinfirmation here. Oct 11 22:01
AlbertoP schestowitz, right, better your vision, which is distorted and complex? Oct 11 22:01
AlbertoP but of course, without your vision, you won’t exist LOL Oct 11 22:01
schestowitz AlbertoP: it’s very simple. Oct 11 22:02
MinceR foobar__087: unfortunately, business isn’t affected only by what _i_ believe. Oct 11 22:02
schestowitz Simple visions: there is a real war on ‘terror’, ISO is reputable and operable…. and so on… Oct 11 22:02
AlbertoP schestowitz, it doesn’t seem so. If you exclude the 14 guys here, judging from the comments you have on your site… Oct 11 22:03
schestowitz OpenSUSE vision: Novell is out leader. All bow to Novell and its new friend. They know what they do. Oct 11 22:03
AlbertoP schestowitz, that’s a change in topic Oct 11 22:03
MinceR AlbertoP: yes, i’m sure everyone not present agrees with you in everything Oct 11 22:03
*MinceR facepalms Oct 11 22:03
AlbertoP schestowitz, I didn’t say anything about ISO and OOXML standardization. Oct 11 22:03
MinceR another change in topic: Oct 11 22:03
MinceR AlbertoP: how did you manage to be so stupid? were you born that way or did you receive training? Oct 11 22:04
kentma MinceR: a lot of very good bribery ought to have done the trick, I would say. Oct 11 22:04
MinceR as for ooxml — guess what, novell is pushing ooxml too Oct 11 22:04
AlbertoP MinceR, again thanks. I’m very happy of your compliments :P Oct 11 22:04
AlbertoP MinceR, ah Novell is pushing OOXML? Oct 11 22:04
MinceR AlbertoP: i didn’t know ‘stupid’ was a compliment in your cult, but it makes sense Oct 11 22:05
MinceR AlbertoP: yes Oct 11 22:05
AlbertoP oh god, this is new Oct 11 22:05
MinceR AlbertoP: miguel de icaza keeps saying how great it is Oct 11 22:05
AlbertoP MinceR, everything negative said by you sounds good ^^ Oct 11 22:05
foobar__087 MinceR Agreed again. But IMHO this quite depends on the country – e.g. in Europe they couldn’t care less but in the USA I can understand if they shiffer in fear since their patent law is one of the most moronic I ever encountered which even could make this possible. So the real problem is more or less some retarded patent law in the USA. Oct 11 22:05
MinceR foobar__087: that doesn’t excuse novell Oct 11 22:05
AlbertoP foobar__087, precisely Oct 11 22:05
kentma foobar__087: you still haven’t answered the question:  do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:06
MinceR foobar__087: even if the means used aren’t entirely effective, it’s obvious they mean harm to the community they claim to want to live off. Oct 11 22:06
foobar__087 kentma No, after the last stuff I prefer ignoring you since talking to you is kinda pointless, sorry. Oct 11 22:06
MinceR foobar__087: also note that people outside the usa are affected if the main developer/supporter of a product they’re using is sued because of patent infringement Oct 11 22:07
AlbertoP MinceR, do you understand that “harming the community” for Novell means harming itself? :) Oct 11 22:07
MinceR foobar__087: so yes, this FUD works everywhere Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz AlbertoP: Novell is pushing OOXML Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz Sun told me. Oct 11 22:07
MinceR AlbertoP: no, it means that novell isn’t part of the community Oct 11 22:07
foobar__087 MinceR you mean cause they advertise “the peace of mind” or “patentprotection” iirc? Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz They have done this for a long time Oct 11 22:07
kentma foobar__087: it’s probably easiest for you to avoid the question, I can understand that. Oct 11 22:07
AlbertoP schestowitz, proofs? Oct 11 22:07
MinceR AlbertoP: novell is a parasite Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz .Mcirosoft ‘bribed’ them to. Oct 11 22:07
MinceR foobar__087: yes Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz Even IBM complained to me. Oct 11 22:07
kentma schestowitz: would you care to ask foobar__087 if he believes that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz Not to mention smaller companies that need ODF. Oct 11 22:07
schestowitz Microsoft pays Novell to help it escape the mud Oct 11 22:08
AlbertoP MinceR, right, paying for a lot of the best community developers. It has to be a new definition of parasite. Oct 11 22:08
kentma foobar__087: running away won’t help you… Oct 11 22:08
kentma going away, would, however, help us here. Oct 11 22:08
schestowitz And Novell, being seen as “open” and having access to Linus/FOSS groups/panels does _a LOT_ of damage Oct 11 22:08
MinceR AlbertoP: well, keep ignoring the patent deal then. Oct 11 22:08
schestowitz Just watch how they promoted .NET this past week. Oct 11 22:08
kentma foobar__087: are they being dishonest or not? Oct 11 22:08
schestowitz They call it “Mono” Oct 11 22:08
MinceR AlbertoP: and keep ignoring the ooxml advertisement. Oct 11 22:08
schestowitz It’s a fight against Java (GPL ,and mature) Oct 11 22:08
MinceR AlbertoP: also keep ignoring the mono patent trap. Oct 11 22:08
foobar__087 kentma cause that question (Is MS dishonest) iirc is a joke. Are they spreading FUD? Sure. Can you sue them therefore? Probably not. So it is a moralic question which depends on oneself. I wouldn’t base my bussiness on such grounds but that simply doesn’t matter. Oct 11 22:08
kentma foobar__087: or will you leave?  go to a suitable group for your paid-for viewpoint? Oct 11 22:09
AlbertoP schestowitz, you’re making precise accusations and citing witnesses. So please, post them. Make them public. I will believe to that. Oct 11 22:09
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:09
kentma answer the question! Oct 11 22:09
MinceR AlbertoP: no you won’t Oct 11 22:09
MinceR AlbertoP: you refuse to believe anything that would imply that novell aren’t saints Oct 11 22:09
kentma foobar__087: still no answer? Oct 11 22:10
MinceR AlbertoP: you’ve proven that already Oct 11 22:10
schestowitz kentma: foobar__087 is a troll here. I spend my time doing other things. I never kick anyone out though. Oct 11 22:10
foobar__087 kentma I’m sorry to say it this way but are you frigging retarded? I just answered you: “I wouldn’t base my bussiness on such grounds”. (as in I don’t agree with them and don’t think that this is the way to go). Oct 11 22:10
AlbertoP MinceR, again, you don’t really know enough about me… Oct 11 22:10
schestowitz The door is open though. Oct 11 22:10
MinceR foobar__087: do you believe that m$ is being dishonest? Oct 11 22:10
MinceR AlbertoP: cut the crap Oct 11 22:10
kentma foobar__087: still no answer?  It’s a simple enough question – are Microsfot being dishonest? Oct 11 22:10
kentma foobar__087: I didn’t ask whether you agreed wtih them, since it’s clear that you do – I want to know whether you believe that they’re being dishonest or not.. please answer the question. Oct 11 22:11
AlbertoP MinceR, you’re the one attacking everyone not agreeing with you without providing anything to support your statements. Come back with something serious and official, not blog links please, and we’ll talk again. Oct 11 22:11
schestowitz AlbertoP: I don’t post private E-mails in ln public. Oct 11 22:11
MinceR AlbertoP: no, i’m attacking the novell fanboys who keep saying how great novell is for our community. Oct 11 22:11
MinceR AlbertoP: and i’m attacking microsoft who have done more harm to the IT industry than anyone else. Oct 11 22:12
schestowitz Your insistence, however, says a lot about the desperation in argumentation. Oct 11 22:12
AlbertoP schestowitz, so you should not make those accusation in public… Oct 11 22:12
foobar__087 MinceR I agree then that advertising “the peace of mind that patent protection gives” is pretty bad style but again, it doesn’t affect me or anyone else IMHO. So I can understand why you are upset but I just don’t think that is affects anyone. Oct 11 22:12
AlbertoP because they are unsupported Oct 11 22:12
kentma foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:12
MinceR AlbertoP: and i’m attacking novell who are assisting m$ in that for short term gains, ignoring that they’ll likely be killed by m$ when they’re not considered useful any more. Oct 11 22:12
MinceR foobar__087: it’s only “bad style”? Oct 11 22:12
kentma MinceR: not “dishonest”, then?  :-) Oct 11 22:13
MinceR foobar__087: spreading lies that harm your customers is “bad style”, nothing more? Oct 11 22:13
schestowitz MinceR: they need to satisfy investors short-term Oct 11 22:13
schestowitz They dive heads first.. Oct 11 22:13
MinceR they should get investors that care about their business then. Oct 11 22:13
schestowitz They should have liaised with Red Hat. Oct 11 22:14
kentma schestowitz: companies which attack their own customers are typically doing something wrong. Oct 11 22:14
schestowitz RH too told me that when I protested in the mailing lists in 2006. Oct 11 22:14
schestowitz Just like Yahoo and Google joining forced. Oct 11 22:14
schestowitz They could sort things out with Red Hat instead of signing an anti-Red Hat charter. Oct 11 22:14
MinceR AlbertoP: a question for you: do you think novell is honestly trying to do good to the linux community while spreading lies that harm it? Oct 11 22:15
foobar__087 MinceR they don’t harm their customers but run an advertising campaign I wouldn’t agree with. Nevertheless it isn’t something people have to care for if they don’t buy into the FUD MS is spreading for years. So, again, it boils down the the crappy american patent law. Oct 11 22:15
MinceR foobar__087: that advertising campaign harms their customers Oct 11 22:15
schestowitz Andreas: “A final update for today: The tracker is now up as well.” Oct 11 22:15
foobar__087 MinceR in which way? Oct 11 22:16
kentma foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:16
MinceR foobar__087: a linux distributor saying “we’re infringing on microsoft patents and most people haven’t paid for that so they can be sued”? i wonder how Oct 11 22:16
kentma MinceR: well, it’s all about honesty, isn’t it? Oct 11 22:16
schestowitz kentma: they blame ‘the system’, but never Microsoft. Oct 11 22:16
MinceR well, novell is certainly lacking in the honesty department. Oct 11 22:17
schestowitz The AlexH troll uses the same tactics to defend Microsoft without truly ‘defending’ them explicitly. Oct 11 22:17
kentma schestowitz: they’re spinning a line, I hope they’re paid enough to have left their morals at the door when they came in. Oct 11 22:17
schestowitz Another technique is attacking the ‘equally bad’ other companies. Oct 11 22:17
schestowitz IBM is a favourite target. Oct 11 22:17
schestowitz Sometimes it’s evil Apple and Google. Oct 11 22:17
AlbertoP MinceR, well, that’s complex. I know Novell is doing good in a lot of fields for the community. There are a lot of Novell contributions upstream in GNOME, KDE, X, ALSA and other projects. Also Novell is offering a very good infrastructure for packaging to all distros (buildservice), and they opened various projects. I think this is real value for the community. Do I think they do always right? Well, no. Oct 11 22:17
foobar__087 MinceR afaik Novell never stated that Linux violates _any_  MS patents but merely says _IF_ you buy our product MS wont sue you _IF_ it gets proven that Linux violates any MS patents. Which is a mighty big difference. Oct 11 22:17
MinceR it would be a challenge to find ‘equally bad’ other companies. Oct 11 22:17
MinceR perhaps crApple would fit the bill. Oct 11 22:18
kentma foobar__087: do you think that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:18
MinceR AlbertoP: guess what, other distributors manage to do good without doing harm. can’t be that difficult. Oct 11 22:18
schestowitz Microsoft uses patent FUD? Blame the USPTO? Microsoft corrupts ISO? Blame the ISO rules… Oct 11 22:18
AlbertoP MinceR, I think they should work harder to make opensuse community grow, but that’s work in progress. OpenSUSE is young and is growing strong, with a lot of new projects and ideas. Oct 11 22:18
MinceR AlbertoP: and how do you reconcile that with the obvious harm they’re doing? Oct 11 22:18
kentma MinceR: these chaps don’t care about the harm.  they care only about themselves. Oct 11 22:19
MinceR foobar__087: and how would that work if they didn’t imply that linux violated m$ patents? Oct 11 22:19
schestowitz foobar__087: it’s good cop, bad cop. Novell lets SweatyB do the bad cop role. Don’t be blind. Oct 11 22:19
MinceR foobar__087: please try to make some sense at last. Oct 11 22:19
AlbertoP MinceR, I don’t think that “harm”. I think they just opened their eyes and want Linux to progress at a decent speed instead than waiting for it to “win” who knows how. Oct 11 22:19
kentma they could probably find jobs in a bank somewhere, on the investment side, ideally. Oct 11 22:19
MinceR AlbertoP: nad how will linux progress at a decent speed if businesses believe they can be sued by m$ at any time? Oct 11 22:19
MinceR s/nad/and/ Oct 11 22:20
AlbertoP MinceR, actually linux is not that affected by the deal. Linux adoption is growing, and didn’t slow down as a consequence of that. Oct 11 22:20
MinceR AlbertoP: or perhaps you believe that suse is the only way? Oct 11 22:20
MinceR AlbertoP: it didn’t slow down because the attempt at FUD failed Oct 11 22:20
MinceR AlbertoP: that doesn’t excuse novell for supporting the FUD campaign Oct 11 22:21
schestowitz AlbertoP: in the same vein, SCO was not damaging because Linux kept growing. Oct 11 22:21
AlbertoP Linux will be able to grow thanks to a better compatibility, and this will happen thanks to a better format support, thanks to mono (look at companies using it, and using linux thanks to it, instead of windows), and so on… Oct 11 22:21
schestowitz And rain is good… well, good for the garden maybe. Oct 11 22:21
MinceR AlbertoP: better compatibility will happen once companies start caring about real standards Oct 11 22:21
AlbertoP MinceR, what’s your job, if I may ask? Oct 11 22:22
schestowitz AlbertoP: brainwashed. Oct 11 22:22
AlbertoP schestowitz, no, realist Oct 11 22:22
kentma MinceR: don’t get fooled by the standards game – open-source is the solution here… Oct 11 22:22
schestowitz *LOL* at “better format support” Oct 11 22:22
MinceR AlbertoP: interoperability is not something you agree to develop, it’s a natural consequence of developing good specifications, publishing them and following them Oct 11 22:22
MinceR AlbertoP: i’m a software developers Oct 11 22:22
MinceR s/s$// Oct 11 22:22
AlbertoP MinceR, right. I agree about specifications. But in the meanwhile what? You just wait? Oct 11 22:22
foobar__087 schestowitz MinceR As said, it works because people buy into the “Linux violates our patents” FUD MS spreads but you wont find any source where Novell admits that Linux violates MS patents afaik. Oct 11 22:22
MinceR kentma: standards can help too Oct 11 22:22
MinceR kentma: as long as they’re real standards and they’re followed Oct 11 22:23
kentma MinceR: mostly not… they’re usually subject to “interests”. Oct 11 22:23
MinceR foobar__087: novell admitted that when it made that deal with m$ Oct 11 22:23
MinceR foobar__087: no matter how hard you try to ignore that, it’s still true. Oct 11 22:23
AlbertoP My point is quite simple: ODF is being adopted, but there will be a long transition phase, and people will still use MS formats. So it’s better to be able to work with them too. Oct 11 22:23
schestowitz /What/ format? Oct 11 22:23
AlbertoP Mono, on the other hand, is subtracting users to MS, like it or not. Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz As a history lesson, there was only ODF. Oct 11 22:24
MinceR AlbertoP: people are already able to work with them, no thanks to m$ or novell Oct 11 22:24
AlbertoP MinceR, oh really? Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz Then Microsoft paid Novell hundreds of millions to help OOXML Oct 11 22:24
AlbertoP with openoffice right? Oct 11 22:24
MinceR AlbertoP: and ooxml doesn’t help with that Oct 11 22:24
MinceR yes, with openoffice and koffice and gnome office Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz It did the same elsewhere. Novell turned into a Microsoft mini-me Oct 11 22:24
AlbertoP well, maybe people needs to have real importers :) Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz It also assisted Microsoft against the EU rulings. Oct 11 22:24
MinceR AlbertoP: ooxml would only werve to make things worse Oct 11 22:24
MinceR s/wer/ser/ Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz Importers? From what? Oct 11 22:24
schestowitz We’re talking abotu 2006 Oct 11 22:25
foobar__087 MinceR if that is really the case then you or schestowitz surely can point me to an url / document that proofs this, which I would really appreciate since it would be entirely new to me and would make me reconsider my point of view. Oct 11 22:25
schestowitz People could get Ooo and open .doc/xls files. Oct 11 22:25
schestowitz Then save as ODF Oct 11 22:25
AlbertoP MinceR, OOXML is being adopted…here in US I receive docx quite often Oct 11 22:25
MinceR AlbertoP: that’s the sad part Oct 11 22:25
AlbertoP MinceR, I _need_ to open them to work Oct 11 22:25
MinceR AlbertoP: well, maybe novell standardized on it Oct 11 22:25
schestowitz Novell needed to create competition to ODF because Microsoft FORCED it to as PART OF THE DEAL (sorry about caps, I don’t yell) Oct 11 22:25
AlbertoP and well, I still use linux, thanks to the N plugin…I like that? No. But I still can use Linux Oct 11 22:25
schestowitz AlbertoP: 2008, not 2006 Oct 11 22:26
AlbertoP MinceR, no really. Novell is not pushing OOXML as much as you think. Oct 11 22:26
MinceR AlbertoP: yes, as a good novell fanboy, you can still use it until you finally crush it with your big pal steve ballmer! Oct 11 22:26
MinceR then you can finally ignore the whole thing and go back to your beloved windows Oct 11 22:26
MinceR and perhaps put netware on it Oct 11 22:26
MinceR AlbertoP: they’re pushing it a lot more than they should Oct 11 22:26
kentma it’s hard to understand why the Novell guys don’t just use Windows and be done. Oct 11 22:27
MinceR perhaps windows isn’t ready for the desktop yet Oct 11 22:27
schestowitz kentma: they do. Oct 11 22:27
schestowitz Many of them use Windows. Oct 11 22:27
AlbertoP MinceR, they just wrote the plugin…nothing else Oct 11 22:27
schestowitz It’s a bizarre company Oct 11 22:27
kentma schestowitz: then why come here?  there’s no need. Oct 11 22:27
MinceR AlbertoP: and miguel publicly said how great it us Oct 11 22:27
schestowitz SUSE is like a separate division located in Germany and some in other places. Oct 11 22:27
schestowitz And then there’s the .NET club. Oct 11 22:27
MinceR made a couple headlines Oct 11 22:27
AlbertoP schestowitz, they develop FOR windows…it’s normal they use windows LOL Oct 11 22:27
MinceR (even if along the lines of ‘miguel de icaza says something idiotic again’) Oct 11 22:28
AlbertoP ZenWorks is a multiplatform environment…you know Oct 11 22:28
MinceR in the m$ sense? Oct 11 22:28
foobar__087 Sorry to repeat this but I’m really interested in this: MinceR if that is really the case then you or schestowitz surely can point me to an url / document that proofs this, which I would really appreciate since it would be entirely new to me and would make me reconsider my point of view. Oct 11 22:28
schestowitz NAC from Novell is Windows-only Oct 11 22:28
AlbertoP schestowitz, SUSE is in germany and in provo either Oct 11 22:28
MinceR (that is, multiplatform is what works on all our platforms — all 1) Oct 11 22:28
schestowitz New product from Novell… better buy some Vista auickly! Oct 11 22:28
MinceR foobar__087: proves what? Oct 11 22:28
schestowitz *quickly Oct 11 22:28
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that Micrsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:28
AlbertoP foobar__087, link to what? Oct 11 22:29
foobar__087 MinceR where Novell addmitted that Linux violates MS patents. Oct 11 22:29
kentma foobar__087: I’m still waiting for you to stop avoiding this question. Oct 11 22:29
AlbertoP foobar__087, it never did LOOOOL Oct 11 22:29
kentma foobar__087: still waiting… tick tick tick Oct 11 22:29
kentma foobar__087: well? Oct 11 22:30
foobar__087 MinceR not as in that their product offers protection _IF_ it gets proofen that Linux vioolates MS patents but where they say that is does. Oct 11 22:30
MinceR foobar__087: yet they were sure enough of it to pay for protection Oct 11 22:30
kentma foobar__087: ahh, interesting – so you now believe that Linux might violate MS patents, then? Oct 11 22:30
MinceR foobar__087: and to suggest others to do so Oct 11 22:30
MinceR foobar__087: while ballmer produced no proof Oct 11 22:30
foobar__087 kentma Sorry, but I gave you the answer 2 times quite some time ago. If you can’t read I can’t help you. Oct 11 22:31
kentma foobar__087: on what basis are you making this claim foobar__087? Oct 11 22:31
kentma foobar__087: you have never addressed my questino. Oct 11 22:31
MinceR foobar__087: http://www.novell.com/news/press/microsoft_and_nove… Oct 11 22:31
MinceR foobar__087: there’s the link you wanted. Oct 11 22:31
kentma foobar__087: I’m still waiting for you to address the question, foobar__087 Oct 11 22:31
foobar__087 kentma I didn’t say this so whatever … Oct 11 22:31
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:31
MinceR “so that customers can benefit from the use of an interoperable version of Linux with patent coverage” Oct 11 22:31
kentma foobar__087: or do you really believe, as you appear to have stated above, that Linux really *might* infringe MS patents? Oct 11 22:32
kentma foobar__087: which is it, then? Oct 11 22:32
AlbertoP MinceR, and where do you read they admit Linux infringes patents? Oct 11 22:32
MinceR AlbertoP: the part i’ve quoted Oct 11 22:32
AlbertoP oh right Oct 11 22:32
kentma foobar__087: ? Oct 11 22:32
foobar__087 kentma Which part of “I didn’t say this” don’t you understand. Oct 11 22:32
foobar__087 ? Oct 11 22:32
MinceR AlbertoP: or perhaps you can imagine a need for “patent coverage” in the case where there’s no infringement? Oct 11 22:32
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:32
schestowitz kentma: you make foobarmer sweat Oct 11 22:32
AlbertoP kentma, your mouse does, your icons does…practically everything _might_ infringe a patent in the US system… Oct 11 22:32
AlbertoP MinceR, oh yes Oct 11 22:33
MinceR AlbertoP: m$ infringes on patents too Oct 11 22:33
kentma foobar__087: go on – answer the question!  You can’t avoid it forever! Oct 11 22:33
MinceR AlbertoP: and guess what would happen if they started suing Oct 11 22:33
AlbertoP MinceR, it’s worse to have an accusation for that than being guilty…it lasts for ages, costs money and never ends Oct 11 22:33
MinceR that’s another reason why there’s no need for “patent coverage” Oct 11 22:33
kentma schestowitz: it’s a simple enough question to answer… I wonder why he keeps avoiding it.  Do you think he might be less than honest himself? Oct 11 22:33
AlbertoP that’s why MS doesn’t sue…it’s a lot easier to feed the fear Oct 11 22:34
MinceR AlbertoP: if accusation is bad, why did novell support it Oct 11 22:34
MinceR ? Oct 11 22:34
MinceR yes, it’s a lot easier to feed the fear when you know you’re lying Oct 11 22:34
foobar__087 kentma How did I say / addmitted that Linux might violate MS patents? I said there advertisement is based on offering protection _IF_ it gets proofen that Linux violates MS patents which is entirely hypothetically. Oct 11 22:34
foobar__087 MinceR Thanks, I’ll read this. Oct 11 22:34
MinceR AlbertoP: so, how can supporting such lies be excused? Oct 11 22:34
AlbertoP MinceR, I don’t support the patent coverage (and I didn’t say that I do anywhere), but the agreement is not only that, actually it’s a lot more Oct 11 22:34
kentma foobar__087: Why can’t you answer the question, foobar__087?  Do you believe that Microsoft are being dishonest or not? Oct 11 22:34
schestowitz Novell loves the  FUD Oct 11 22:34
MinceR AlbertoP: how can any self-respecting company that claims to support linux support such lies? Oct 11 22:35
kentma foobar__087: what’s the problem here? Oct 11 22:35
kentma foobar__087: it’s a simple enough question. Oct 11 22:35
schestowitz To Novell, Microsoft FUD is increase in business. Let me find a linkage. Oct 11 22:35
kentma foobar__087: why are you not using a real name? Oct 11 22:35
MinceR increase in business to the expense of other linux distros Oct 11 22:35
schestowitz 2007: http://boycottnovell.com/2007/05/19/n… Oct 11 22:35
schestowitz It has external links Oct 11 22:35
kentma foobar__087: come on – answer the question! Oct 11 22:35
AlbertoP MinceR, Novell wanted to cooperate with MS for the technical aspects, that’s all. The patent deal is an addition, and it is very common when working together on something. Oct 11 22:36
MinceR AlbertoP: if that’s what they wanted, they wouldn’t have made the patent deal Oct 11 22:36
schestowitz AlbertoP: flase. Oct 11 22:36
schestowitz Hovsepian contradicts yoy. Oct 11 22:36
MinceR AlbertoP: it’s not a mandatory addition Oct 11 22:36
kentma foobar__087: well? Oct 11 22:36
AlbertoP If you want to build castles on it, feel free to do that…oh I forgot, you already did! Without that your whole site would not exist and you would be unknown! Oct 11 22:36
schestowitz He said something along the lines of customer wanting patent issues of the tables Oct 11 22:36
MinceR AlbertoP: meanwhile you can claim that novell is a saint and ignore all the harm they’re doing. Oct 11 22:37
schestowitz Which may be a lie because Red Hat did fine and people in the business never heard such stories. Oct 11 22:37
MinceR willingly. Oct 11 22:37
AlbertoP MinceR, schestowitz since when you’re experts of industrial partnerships and deals? :) Oct 11 22:37
MinceR AlbertoP: well, we evidently know more about them than you do Oct 11 22:37
kentma schestowitz: he also claimed that MS might be proven correct and that Novell were offering protection in this case. Oct 11 22:37
schestowitz IOW, Novell lies when it makes the interop pitch Oct 11 22:37
AlbertoP MinceR, no I don’t ignore the “potential consequences”. I just think that the risk is a lot smaller than the consequences of not cooperating. Oct 11 22:37
schestowitz It wanted to, among other things, use its patents for some exclusionary assurance. Oct 11 22:37
MinceR AlbertoP: so everyone should just avoid the risks and pay ballmer. Oct 11 22:38
schestowitz And use that as a weapon against its rival that it envies like mad — Red Hat Oct 11 22:38
MinceR AlbertoP: or, even better, just buy windows and avoid the risks. Oct 11 22:38
AlbertoP MinceR, it doesn’t see so. All your statements are at best opinions, at worse unsupported claims to attract the attention. Oct 11 22:38
kentma foobar__087: we’re all waiting here, baited breath – what’s the answer? Oct 11 22:38
MinceR AlbertoP: you’ve declared the facts i’ve presented and proven with references opinions, because you can’t stand the facts. Oct 11 22:38
kentma s/baited/bated Oct 11 22:38
AlbertoP MinceR, don’t worry, I have also windows :) Oct 11 22:38
MinceR AlbertoP: have fun in that little dream world of yours Oct 11 22:38
MinceR AlbertoP: i was sure of that Oct 11 22:39
AlbertoP hehe right Oct 11 22:39
kentma foobar__087: well? Oct 11 22:39
AlbertoP you’re sure of everything right? Oct 11 22:39
schestowitz kentma: both spellings work. :-0) Oct 11 22:39
kentma schestowitz: hehe – yeah :-) Oct 11 22:39
MinceR AlbertoP: i didn’t have to talk about things i’m not sure of so i didn’t. Oct 11 22:39
MinceR foobar__087: are you going to answer kentma’s question, ever? Oct 11 22:39
foobar__087 Sorry MinceR, but there is no addmittion (correct english word?) that Linux violates MS patents but simply “The patent cooperation agreement enables Microsoft and Novell to give customers assurance of protection against patent infringement claims.”. So, basically MS promises not to sue Novell customers _IF_ it gets proofen (without proof there is no ground) that Linux violates MS patents. Which is exactly what I said earlier. Oct 11 22:40
MinceR foobar__087: implied: and it’s likely enough that novell is willing to pay for it Oct 11 22:40
AlbertoP MinceR, the fact, the only one easily proven here, is that you’re maintaining a site full of claims without a proof just to feel important. The rest can be easily judged, because we are not a bunch of stupids, as you would like to believe. Oct 11 22:40
kentma foobar__087: so here is the second conundrum.  clearly you believe that MS have a point, otherwise you wouldn’t even suggest that “assurance of protection” was worthwhile. Oct 11 22:41
MinceR foobar__087: despite the facts that 1) the patents were never mentioned and 2) no proof was shown of the infringement Oct 11 22:41
foobar__087 MinceR fyi, I did already 2 times so I fail to see the point in repeating myself: from a moralic point, sure but from a legal point not since I doubt that one can sue them for this. Oct 11 22:41
kentma foobar__087: so, go on – are MS being dishonest or not? Oct 11 22:41
MinceR foobar__087: also that 3) microsoft itself is kept at bay by patents all the same, so they wouldn’t sue anyway Oct 11 22:41
kentma foobar__087: please answer the question! Oct 11 22:41
zoobab is MS sues, it is via a proxy Oct 11 22:41
MinceR AlbertoP: actually i’m not maintaining the site Oct 11 22:42
AlbertoP actually MS is more famous for being sued and pay fees than for suing others ^^ Oct 11 22:42
MinceR AlbertoP: and if you continue to act like an idiot, i will continue to believe that you are one. Oct 11 22:42
kentma zoobab: quite possibly correct, but I’m trying to establish if foobar__087 believes that MS are being dishonest or not.  He’s refusing to answer the question. Oct 11 22:42
foobar__087 MinceR agreements not to sue eatchother are sadly common bussiness in the states – just look how my patent pools there are. All major players have some and participate in some. I agree it is sad but there is no way around it apprently in the US to protect oneself from patent trolls. Oct 11 22:43
MinceR actually patent licenses are common business Oct 11 22:43
AlbertoP MinceR, as I said, keep judging me personally, and I will keep considering your insults a compliment. :) Oct 11 22:43
MinceR “covenant not to sue” was merely novell’s way of circumventing the wording of GPLv2 Oct 11 22:43
MinceR that’s why GPLv3 was worded differently. Oct 11 22:43
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that MS are being dishonest or not? Oct 11 22:43
MinceR (it also goes to show that novell doesn’t only hold contempt for the community it lives off, but also for the license that allows it to do its business) Oct 11 22:44
AlbertoP yes, that’s why GPL2 is still used, and projects are moved to MIT/X11… Oct 11 22:44
AlbertoP :) Oct 11 22:44
kentma MinceR: it’s happy to live off fear. Oct 11 22:44
MinceR novell hates free/open source software and is all too willing to try to live off it Oct 11 22:44
MinceR as i’ve said before, novell is a parasite. Oct 11 22:44
foobar__087 kentma I answered that question now 3 times. 2 times to you and once to MinceR – so either read it or come up with a new quesiton or stfu. kthxbye Oct 11 22:44
AlbertoP MinceR, right and ubuntu? Oct 11 22:44
kentma MinceR: a parasite which lives off fear Oct 11 22:44
kentma foobar__087: when will you answer the question, foobar__087? Oct 11 22:45
AlbertoP MinceR, do we want to discuss about ubuntu contributions to Linux? :) Oct 11 22:45
MinceR foobar__087: fuck off. go back to #opensuse and hug some of your fellow cultists for comfort. Oct 11 22:45
kentma foobar__087: why do you keep avoiding it? Oct 11 22:45
AlbertoP MinceR, it’s short: 0.001% Oct 11 22:45
MinceR AlbertoP: you mean the contributions some novell-funded asshole said didn’t exist but was proven wrong? Oct 11 22:45
foobar__087 MinceR excuse me? Oct 11 22:45
AlbertoP Greg…oh no, he works for Novell, pointed them out Oct 11 22:45
kentma foobar__087: why won’t you answer the question?  there is no excuse for you, I’m afraid. Oct 11 22:46
AlbertoP MinceR, he was not proven wrong at all…he forgot to count ONE contribution LOL Oct 11 22:46
MinceR AlbertoP: no, it wasn’t one Oct 11 22:46
AlbertoP still, the % doesn’t change Oct 11 22:46
schestowitz AlbertoP: wrong. Microsoft sued over patents. Oct 11 22:46
schestowitz Aiming for embargo even,. Oct 11 22:46
AlbertoP re-read Oct 11 22:46
AlbertoP I said it’s not very famous for suing Oct 11 22:47
AlbertoP I didn’t say it didn’t sue Oct 11 22:47
AlbertoP anyway…I’m off to real life Oct 11 22:47
foobar__087 MinceR are you seriously going down the “fuck route” now because I pointed out that the document you showed as proof doesn’t addmit that Linux violates MS patents? Oct 11 22:47
foobar__087 *fuck off route Oct 11 22:48
kentma foobar__087: why won’t you answer the question?  Is it too complicated? Oct 11 22:48
MinceR foobar__087: read what you’ve said to me and perhaps this time you’ll understand why. Oct 11 22:49
kentma foobar__087: who do you work for? Oct 11 22:49
MinceR foobar__087: protip: “stfu” and “kthxbye” Oct 11 22:49
MinceR foobar__087: so now that you’ve said goodbye to us, you might as well get lost. Oct 11 22:49
AlbertoP kentma, you know…people don’t need to be paid to have opinions in disagreement with yours. It is so easy! :) Oct 11 22:49
kentma MinceR: trolls always have different rules for themselves. Oct 11 22:49
MinceR i know Oct 11 22:49
schestowitz foobar__087: who are you? Oct 11 22:50
kentma foobar__087: are you going to be honest about anything? Oct 11 22:50
schestowitz I am Roy.You know me. Oct 11 22:50
zoobab Microsoft still see the patent as positive, even if they are the number one company to be sued, ask yourself why Oct 11 22:50
schestowitz Be polite. Did you momma call you FooBar? Oct 11 22:50
zoobab Microsoft still see the patent system as positive, even if they are the number one company to be sued, ask yourself why Oct 11 22:50
MinceR foobar__087: that document together with novell’s behavior and the fact that it happened soon after ballmer’s claims does admit that Oct 11 22:50
kentma zoobab: a desire to commit suicide perhaps shouldn’t be discounted… Oct 11 22:50
schestowitz It’s Crocodile tears. Oct 11 22:51
kentma foobar__087: when are you going to answer my question? Oct 11 22:51
foobar__087 MinceR 1. told you my answer to kentmas question 2. I said that patent agreements are pretty common between all major players in the US and 3. I told kentma once again that I answered his question already but I never insulted you in any way. Oct 11 22:51
schestowitz All the patent lobbyists use that to say “it’s good for small companies” Oct 11 22:51
kentma foobar__087: you have *never* answered my question. Oct 11 22:51
MinceR zoobab: it’s because the patent system raises the barrier to entry and m$ is scared shitless of having to compete. Oct 11 22:51
schestowitz Small companies as in trolls and their origin’genesis. Oct 11 22:51
MinceR because they know they can’t. Oct 11 22:51
*benJIman wants to know how he can get paid to troll on IRC. Oct 11 22:51
kentma foobar__087: do you believe that MS are being dishonest? Oct 11 22:51
MinceR foobar__087: afaict you never really answered the question Oct 11 22:52
kentma benJIman: I know what you mean – it’s amazing that anyone would do what foobar__087 is doing. Oct 11 22:52
AlbertoP Novell has to be veeeeery rich to pay all these trolls eh?! Oct 11 22:52
MinceR foobar__087: all you said that it was “bad style”, not whether it was honest or not. Oct 11 22:52
AlbertoP kentma, no no it’s amazing someone does what boycottnovell does…really. Oct 11 22:52
schestowitz Nathan Myhrvold,  Microsoft patent troll: “”Intellectual property is the next software.” Oct 11 22:52
MinceR AlbertoP: yes, because that money is coming out of ballmer’s pocket Oct 11 22:52
schestowitz Can’t make good software? Then reinvent software biz Oct 11 22:52
schestowitz Didn’t Microsoft already reinvest s/w? Oct 11 22:52
MinceR AlbertoP: someone does because someone has the interests of the it industry in mind Oct 11 22:52
schestowitz Letter to hobbyists if you know what I mean… Oct 11 22:52
AlbertoP the question is: how the hell do you have a life if you write, chat, blog so much? Do you work? Oct 11 22:52
schestowitz Can’t compete, then subvert the rules Oct 11 22:53
MinceR AlbertoP: um, what are you doing right now? Oct 11 22:53
AlbertoP MinceR, I come here once ever century ^^ Oct 11 22:53
schestowitz Send the BSA and IDC to the EU to lobby politicians for RAND clauses with patents and all… Oct 11 22:53
kentma schestowitz: MinceR: see if you can get foobar__087 to be honest about something before he goes… I’m off – c ya! Oct 11 22:53
MinceR kentma: i can’t Oct 11 22:53
AlbertoP MinceR, boycottnovell has a huge number of posts everyday Oct 11 22:53
kentma MinceR: :-) Oct 11 22:53
MinceR AlbertoP: i think it will until the problem it’s exposing goes away. Oct 11 22:54
AlbertoP MinceR, hehe well, I doubt it will go away so soon :) Oct 11 22:54
MinceR AlbertoP: actually, m$ is already dying Oct 11 22:54
schestowitz I write the stuff fast, that’s all. Oct 11 22:54
*kentma has quit (“Leaving.”) Oct 11 22:55
schestowitz After  3 years doing that type of stuff. Oct 11 22:55
MinceR AlbertoP: and it will take novell with itself if novell doesn’t die by that time Oct 11 22:55
schestowitz MinceR: dying is a strong word, but it’s falling apart. Oct 11 22:55
schestowitz The evidence you have is also the departure of its managers. Oct 11 22:55
AlbertoP MinceR, you can dream of it :) Oct 11 22:55
foobar__087 Ah well, I have to run but I`m looking forward to continue this discussion. Oct 11 22:55
schestowitz Just the crazy man remains in the ship yelping. Oct 11 22:55
AlbertoP Novell survived to MS more than once ;) Oct 11 22:55
foobar__087 Good night & take care. Oct 11 22:55
MinceR AlbertoP: i can live in it. but you’ll have to settle for a dream. Oct 11 22:55
*foobar__087 has quit (“http://irc2go.com/“) Oct 11 22:55
MinceR AlbertoP: so go hug your ballmer plushie. Oct 11 22:56
schestowitz AlbertoP: with Novell’s attitude.. yes… Novell would rather Microsoft stayed. Oct 11 22:56
schestowitz To Novell, Microsoft dominance would work well for now. Oct 11 22:56
schestowitz Novell lags in the server, the desktop and Netware is dying too. Same with GroupWise. Oct 11 22:56
schestowitz Novell is a follower… of Microsoft now. Oct 11 22:57
schestowitz Hoping to get 1-2% of the leftovers of Microsoft for a living. Oct 11 22:57
schestowitz Much like the fish to cling on to the sharks for some leftovers. Oct 11 22:57
schestowitz If Novell can empower Microsoft through Hyper-V, ..NET, OOXML etc, then it’s ‘percentage’ is likely yo be more decent. Oct 11 22:57
AlbertoP hehe right, because the linux market instead is made of huge % Oct 11 22:57
AlbertoP lool Oct 11 22:57
schestowitz *its Oct 11 22:57
AlbertoP let’s continue another time…had to go running Oct 11 22:58
MinceR AlbertoP: protip: saying “lol” a lot doesn’t prove your points, however weak they might be. Oct 11 22:58
schestowitz AlbertoP: glid you laugh at Linux. Oct 11 22:58
schestowitz Says a lot about you. Oct 11 22:58
schestowitz I saw this some weeks ago in the stuff you write. Oct 11 22:58
AlbertoP schestowitz, I don’t laugh at linux. I laugh at your data.. Oct 11 22:58
AlbertoP don’t interpret Oct 11 22:58
MinceR AlbertoP: actually what you said does mean you laugh at linux Oct 11 22:59
schestowitz As Jose_X wrote yesterday, Novell and those other cronies loves spreading the impression that Everything Microsoft is inevitabkle. Oct 11 22:59
AlbertoP oh I forgot, again, if you don’t do that, you don’t blog :) Oct 11 22:59
MinceR well, once we did have Everything Microsoft Oct 11 22:59
MinceR and it wasn’t pretty Oct 11 22:59
schestowitz Well, Novell still programs with IE only. Oct 11 22:59
MinceR but it’s going away Oct 11 22:59
AlbertoP Oo Oct 11 23:00
schestowitz ActiveX and all. Novell shop requires that you use IE, promoting an IE-only Web again. Oct 11 23:00
AlbertoP schestowitz, oh this is is new! Oct 11 23:00
AlbertoP oh really? Oct 11 23:00
schestowitz Don’t forget… NETWARE runs under Windows. Oct 11 23:00
AlbertoP do you know I bough there? Oct 11 23:00
AlbertoP and I used firefox? Oct 11 23:00
AlbertoP from suse? Oct 11 23:00
schestowitz Put Linux and desktops and voila! Number one cash cow dies (Netware) Oct 11 23:00
MinceR netware was dying anyway Oct 11 23:00
schestowitz Yes Oct 11 23:00
MinceR partly because it sucked Oct 11 23:00
schestowitz Gradually. Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz Like Microsoft Office. Oct 11 23:01
MinceR partly because windows (and everything else) did what it did already. Oct 11 23:01
AlbertoP schestowitz, try before speaking…it will improve your knowledge :) Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz Sales of which decline of course. Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz Some people are not aware of this. Oct 11 23:01
MinceR novell had a chance to start dealing with real, workable technology Oct 11 23:01
MinceR they blew it Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz Well, it’s a dilemma. Oct 11 23:01
MinceR they became a microsoft subsidiary instead. Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz Disruption situation. Oct 11 23:01
schestowitz They must keep the cash cows alive while switching. Same dilemma as MS. Oct 11 23:02
MinceR the new cash cow was already alive when they bought suse Oct 11 23:02
schestowitz To Microsoft it’s the Web mainly. http://boycottnovell.com/2008/02/11/l… Oct 11 23:02
MinceR they could have bundled netware with it if they needed to Oct 11 23:02
schestowitz MinceR: charging for it is harder. Oct 11 23:03
MinceR of course, suse not sucking so much would have helped Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz They have competition. Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz They don’t like competing Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz They were spoiled with the Netware monopoly. Oct 11 23:03
MinceR i thought novell was used to competition Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz MinceR: yes, from dirty MS tricks. Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz WordPerfect, AD, etc. Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz But they don’t learn. Oct 11 23:03
schestowitz They sleep with the enemy and they’ll wake up with a geeko at the back one day. Oct 11 23:04
schestowitz Very big Geeko. With big teeth. Oct 11 23:04
schestowitz “No free lunch” FUD from IDG: http://www.pcworld.com/businesscenter/articl… Oct 11 23:12
MinceR i’ve learnt to ignore idg long ago Oct 11 23:12
schestowitz Charles Babcock has always been a cock, but his FUD is now spreading to other ‘concerned’ readers: http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=282 Oct 11 23:14
schestowitz Leading back to DisinformationWeek, of course. Oct 11 23:14
*PetoKraus (n=Peter@cpc4-broo2-0-0-cust1012.renf.cable.ntl.com) has joined #boycottnovell Oct 11 23:24
AlbertoP <MinceR> they could have bundled netware with it if they needed to  –> they did / do ^^ Oct 11 23:28
AlbertoP bbl Oct 11 23:29
*AlbertoP has quit (“Sto andando via”) Oct 11 23:29
MinceR good riddance. Oct 11 23:33
benJIman Isn’t it inconvenient when people don’t agree with you. Oct 11 23:36
schestowitz *LOL* http://www.linux.com/feature/150084 “God hel us all if that idiot McBush wins next month!” Oct 11 23:36
schestowitz The folks here don’t get the “Linux is a bastard” reference from Linus and take offense in it: http://www.linux.com/feature/149992 Oct 11 23:36
MinceR benJIman: it’s inconvenient with facts don’t agree with you, isn’t it? Oct 11 23:37
benJIman MinceR: You tell me. Oct 11 23:38
MinceR i can’t, you’re the one experiencing it Oct 11 23:38
benJIman That’s what your mum said. Oct 11 23:39
MinceR shouldn’t you be in bed now? Oct 11 23:39
benJIman No work today, it’s sunday. Oct 11 23:40
schestowitz http://ever-increasing-entropy.blogspo… ‘”Has a nation ever gone bankrupt before?” Apparently yes. Newfoundland (FKA the Dominion of Newfoundland) before WWII was basically insolvent due to its WWI debt. It reverted back to a British colony in the early 30s (it later became a Canadian province in 1949).’ Oct 11 23:46
schestowitz cj:  “With all the things that have been reported around OOXML over the last year I’ve often wondered what it must be like to work for a company that appears to be willing to go beyond what most would find acceptable to win. I’m glad this merely is a rhetorical question for me and surely hope it will stay that way.” http://lehors.wordpress.com/2008/09/24/a… Oct 11 23:55
schestowitz He points to a certain page there. Follow the link.  Microsoft Employees: Working for a Company That Bribes Charities for Lock-in… Oct 11 23:55
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