EditorsAbout the SiteComes vs. MicrosoftUsing This Web SiteSite ArchivesCredibility IndexOOXMLOpenDocumentPatentsNovellNews DigestSite NewsRSS

01.08.09

Factual Mistakes in Byfield’s Article on Office Suites

Posted in Deception, Fork, Microsoft, Novell, Office Suites, Open XML, OpenDocument, OpenOffice, Patents at 9:15 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz

We already wrote about this subject a couple of weeks ago [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]. Coming a little late to the party is Bruce Byfield, who still has a vendetta against us [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7].

We haven’t the time (nor the desire) to do a full rebuttal right now, but a few points are worth making:

  • Byfield repeatedly uses the term “anti-Novell lobby” to daemonise critics, but he never bothers to name them or to link to these critics. He wants to present his own version (or rendition) of their voice without giving readers the opportunity to interpret or judge for themselves. Over at OStatic, Sam Dean went on and deleted (censored) a polite and informative comment from me, which was about 30-40 lines in length. It explained what Novell was doing with Go-OO[XML].
  • Regarding patents, Byfield writes: “And considering that OOXML is now an ISO standard — no matter what dirty tricks might have made it one — the idea that it, at least, could now be used in patent violation cases seems logically inconsistent.” Byfield may not understand patents and the OSP from Microsoft, which does not elude RAND. Being an ISO standard does not prevent patents from being an issue. As always, there is also disregard for more idealogical considerations, which passively endorses corruption.

There are many more points worth making, but we lack the time to address them.

The author has a long track record of defending Novell and that, by association, means badmouthing “Boycott Novell”. Frustration is probably not a factor here, but let’s remember that Byfield mostly writes for Linux.com, which is no longer publishing articles (for now). That can’t be good news to him because that’s how he makes a living.

“There is nothing more that can be done. Everything we do is now available to licensees as well.”

Horacio Gutierrez, Microsoft’s Imaginary Property Officer

Share this post: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and discover new web pages.
  • Digg
  • del.icio.us
  • Reddit
  • co.mments
  • DZone
  • email
  • Google Bookmarks
  • LinkedIn
  • NewsVine
  • Print
  • Technorati
  • TwitThis
  • Facebook

If you liked this post, consider subscribing to the RSS feed or join us now at the IRC channels.

Pages that cross-reference this one

49 Comments

  1. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 10:52 am

    Gravatar

    To be fair, he criticized Novell as well. I don’t think he took either side of the argument. Seemed pretty unbiased to me.

  2. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 10:56 am

    Gravatar

    What is your point of balance/equilibrium? Bias is a dependent thing. It’s not like maths. It’s not a rule of nature.

  3. twitter said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:08 am

    Gravatar

    An honest person can’t help but say bad things about the M$/Novell deal. A dishonest person can say the same things and also write hatchet pieces like “Boycott Novell, Freedom Fighter or Den of Paranoia.” Roy’s links show what kind of writer Byfield has been. Even now, I have a hard time telling if he’s just deluded or if he does these things intentionally.

  4. twitter said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Gravatar

    Another factual error, “OOXML is now an ISO standard.” The non standard that M$ bribed and bullied through ISO is not the format used by M$ Office. Indeed one large problem with OOXML is that the standard is incomplete, contradictory and impossible to implement. This is a separate issue from patents and M$’s intent but just as important and many people pointed it out at the time.

  5. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:40 am

    Gravatar

    There are four separate ‘OOXMLs’.

  6. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:45 am

    Gravatar

    Yeah, because no-one ships a non-ratified version of ODF :D

  7. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:50 am

    Gravatar

    You get the option.

  8. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 11:52 am

    Gravatar

    Cross fingers that ODF 1.2 is compatible with OOo 3.0, then. Otherwise having to pick between two versions of ODF 1.2 is going to be really confusing :)

    (There’s a serious point in here: bitching about OOXML compatibilities between Office versions is one thing; but the truth is that no suite reliably deals with non-native file formats. Comparing Office’s ODF support with KOffice I think will dishearten some people)

  9. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Gravatar

    Don’t worry, Alex Lund Stocholm. I’ll be careful.

  10. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 12:00 pm

    Gravatar

    Calling me names doesn’t help your position.

  11. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    Gravatar

    I didn’t realise his name was an insult.

  12. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 12:05 pm

    Gravatar

    I didn’t say I was insulted, I’m just noting that you’ve resorted to name calling.

  13. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 12:06 pm

    Gravatar

    Your argument for OOXML was a slur against ODF. RMS did not like it when Miguel used the same strategy.

  14. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:00 pm

    Gravatar

    It’s not an argument for OOXML. It’s not a slur against ODF either; since it’s the truth.

  15. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:02 pm

    Gravatar

    That’s not the point as you divert discussions about OOXML into ODF discussions, just as you love turning Novell discussions into Sun discussions.

  16. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    Gravatar

    Pointing out your hypocrisy isn’t “diverting discussions”.

  17. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:11 pm

    Gravatar

    It is, for the same reason that saying “Apple is evil” to divert attention away from Microsoft crimes is counter productive.

  18. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    Gravatar

    It’s not counter productive if you’re accusing them of the exact same crime, Roy. That’s the very definition of hypocrisy.

  19. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    Gravatar

    When the standard applies to *you*, not *them*. I’ve nothing to do with those companies.

  20. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 1:33 pm

    Gravatar

    No, but you claim to not apply double standards.

    Furthermore you’re in denial about the state of ODF interop, it seems. Even as the best choice, ODF has plenty of room for improvement.

  21. twitter said,

    January 8, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Gravatar

    There’s no double standard here. OOXML is impossible to implement and has zero community feedback. Using it is just about as much work as trying to reverse engineer M$’s old binary formats. ODF is a complete and well documented standard that groups like KDE, Gnome and Google can implement and everyone has a chance to participate in the change process. ODF efforts are far ahead of OOXML efforts and that’s the way things will remain.

  22. AlexH said,

    January 8, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Gravatar

    @twitter: community feedback, etc. excellent point. Impossible to implement; less so.

    ODF isn’t technically ahead of OOXML; ODF is winning because all industry players are supporting it.

  23. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    Gravatar

    OOXML *is* impossible to implement, unless you are Microsoft.

  24. Baby In The Bath Water said,

    January 8, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    Gravatar

    For “impossible to implement”, it sure seems rather implementable by OOo/Go-OO to me… I think Gnumeric and AbiWord implemented OOXML support as well.

    Note: this comment was posted from Novell’s headquarters.

  25. towanowitsch said,

    January 8, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    Gravatar

    Pointing out that you are wrong is unfair, right? This is like the good old times in the east: “The party (Roy) is always right (even when it is wrong)!”

    Lying for the good cause and writing shit is still lying and writing shit, Roy, and you’re not helping FOSS with that behavior.

  26. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    Gravatar

    They haven’t. By that yardstick, ReactOS is the next Microsoft Windows.

  27. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Gravatar

    towanowitsch,

    Are you one of the SUSE lads?

  28. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:06 pm

    Gravatar

    AbiWord and Gnumeric do have OOXML import support fwiw. Export support for AbiWord was a GSoC 2008 item, not sure if it was implemented though. Not sure about Gnumeric export ability.

  29. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    Gravatar

    It should also be noted that the Gnumeric devs stated that implementing ODF support was more difficult than implementing OOXML support. So “impossible to implement” seems like quite a bit of a stretch to me.

  30. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:09 pm

    Gravatar

    They already had stuff for .doc.

  31. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:15 pm

    Gravatar

    So what?

  32. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    Gravatar

    Reuse of stuff.

  33. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:42 pm

    Gravatar

    I thought you said it was impossible to implement?

    Besides, all office suites support the old binary formats.

  34. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:44 pm

    Gravatar

    Not properly.

  35. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 7:52 pm

    Gravatar

    Am I to trust your word on that? Or can you provide links to someone who has actually attempted to implement OOXML “properly” in OOo/GOffice?

  36. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    Gravatar

    You can do the research and report back if that matters to you.

  37. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 8, 2009 at 8:05 pm

    Gravatar

    So then you are admitting that you have no facts to support for your assertion?

  38. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 8, 2009 at 8:29 pm

    Gravatar

    I’m busy catching up with stuff at the moment. Remind me later.

  39. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 9, 2009 at 8:15 am

    Gravatar

    Consider this a reminder.

  40. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 9, 2009 at 8:29 am

    Gravatar

    Given a parser and/or a tokeniser for .doc, it may be possible to extract analogous elements from OOXML and treat them similarly, whereas ODF does things the Right Way by reusing existing standards, which a project like AbiWord is less likely to have already implemented.

  41. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 9, 2009 at 8:51 am

    Gravatar

    That doesn’t answer the question.

    I’m waiting to see evidence that OOXML is “impossible to implement”.

  42. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 9, 2009 at 8:54 am

    Gravatar

    Microsoft OOXML is more than just basic support for paragraphs and pictures. Has has Windows-specific bits, legacy stuff (Word 6, 97), DRM and so on and so forth. it’s a total joke, but it does not prevent you from defending it.

  43. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 9, 2009 at 9:11 am

    Gravatar

    Just defending it from inaccurate accusations.

    I’m all for ODF, but I’m not going to hide my head in the sand and pretend that OOXML is evil, that it’s impossible to implement, that it kills innocent babies, or any other nonsensical things.

  44. Troy said,

    January 9, 2009 at 9:12 am

    Gravatar

    I wouldn’t worry too much about anyone taking anything Byfield has to say seriously anyway. He’s a crappy writer who’s lousy at hiding his personal agendas.

  45. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 9, 2009 at 9:31 am

    Gravatar

    Troy: sorta like Roy? ;-)

  46. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 9, 2009 at 9:48 am

    Gravatar

    You are a hypocrite, Dan.

    May I ask why you leave hundreds of comments in a site that you hate?

  47. Dan O'Brian said,

    January 9, 2009 at 9:51 am

    Gravatar

    Because you play this site as if it were a legit news site, yet when you are called on your inaccuracies and outright lies, you claim “this is just a blog” as if that’s some sort of excuse.

  48. Roy Schestowitz said,

    January 9, 2009 at 10:14 am

    Gravatar

    Differences in opinion require no “correction”. You try to impose your interpretations upon others.

    As for nitpicking, you could do the same in poor media like the BBC (they have notoriously bad coverage of technology).

  49. Jose_X said,

    February 17, 2009 at 1:44 pm

    Gravatar

    >> Over at OStatic, Sam Dean went on and deleted (censored) a polite and informative comment from me, which was about 30-40 lines in length. It explained what Novell was doing with Go-OO[XML].

    I got the feeling something similar happened to me (based on when I commented and when comments of others went up) here http://ostatic.com/blog/novell-delivers-moonlight-1-0-for-rich-media-on-linux . I recognize that I already did get a chance to speak my point earlier. It’s always possible they simply do not like rebuttaling to go on for a long time. The author of this piece was Sam Dean (it’s an ad for mono).

    The last comment I submitted that was not posted was:

    *****
    toshok, you understand that groups like Tivo and Linus (?) and many others would probably consider that LGPL gives them the rights to embed and distribute all they want.

    They might reason as such: the LGPLv2 gives full distribution rights (?) so long as certain conditions are met, and these conditions don’t specifically include the requirement to make modifications physically possible or easy.

    Maybe a court would side with Novell and not Tivo; however, Novell’s interpretation does not seem to be supported by the LGPLv2 text; it appears to be a contradiction, making it a bit unclear what the actual license of moonlight is: LGPLv2 or some bifurcation of that license with Novell’s new requirement?

    >> We’re the copyright holders, we can apply whatever license terms we *want*.

    That is correct. The allegation was in part that Novell had not licensed as LGPLv2. I haven’t seen anyone challenge their ability to pick their license. The confusion is in not knowing what license Novell actually did pick.

    Novell can remove the confusion by picking LGPLv3, I think, or by clearly writing out a new license (see http://www.fsf.org/licensing/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifyGPL ), or by sticking with LGPLv2 but putting their interpretation and any other advice elsewhere from the project license file or clearly marked as “nonnormative”.

    Moonlight is meant to be distributed and used. This way patent infringement kicks in. This way Microsoft’s huge investments can be leveraged by them and are not wasted. Developers, developers, developers, developers. Let’s all be good chaps and chip in to help preserve the monopoly lock-ins.

What Else is New


  1. Links 5/6/2020: LibreELEC (Leia) 9.2.3, Rust 1.44.0, and Hamburg's Pivot to Free/Libre Software

    Links for the day



  2. This Article About GitHub Takeover Never Appeared (Likely Spiked by Microsoft and Its Friends Inside the Media)

    And later they wonder why people distrust so much of the media (where paying advertisers set the agenda/tone)



  3. Raw: How Microsoft and/or the EPO Killed an Important EPO Story About Their SLAPP Against Techrights and Others

    Spiking a story about spiked stories about corruption



  4. The Linux Foundation 'Bootcamp' -- Badly Timed and Badly Named in June 2020 -- Only Uses Linus Torvalds Like a 'Prop' (for Legitimacy) While Promoting Militarised Monopolies

    Sometimes a picture says a lot more than words, especially in light of political events in the US and a certain Chinese anniversary we cannot name (Microsoft censors mentions of it)



  5. IRC Proceedings: Thursday, June 04, 2020

    IRC logs for Thursday, June 04, 2020



  6. The Gates Press (GatesGate) -- Part II: When Media That You Bribe Calls All Your Critics 'Conspiracy Theorists' (to Keep Them Silenced, Marginalised)

    The assault on the media by Bill Gates is a subject not often explored by the media (maybe because a lot of it is already bribed by him); but we're beginning to gather new and important evidence that explains how critics are muzzled (even fired) and critical pieces spiked, never to see the light of day anywhere



  7. GitHub is Not Sharing But 'Theft' by Microsoft

    Microsoft buying GitHub does not demonstrate that Microsoft loves Open Source (GitHub is not Open Source and may never be) but that it loves monopoly and coercion (what GitHub is all about and why it must be rejected)



  8. The Huge Damage (Except for Patent Lawyers' Bottom Line) Caused by Fake European Patents

    The European Patent Office (EPO) keeps granting fake patents that cause a lot of real harm (examiners are pressured to play along and participate in this unlawful agenda); nobody is happy except those who profit from needless, frivolous lawsuits



  9. Red Hat/IBM Got 'Tired' of RMS. Is It Getting 'Tired' of GPL/Copyleft Too?

    After contributing to the cancellation of Richard Stallman (RMS) based on some falsehoods perpetuated in the media we're seeing the sort of thing one might expect from IBM (more so now that it totally controls Fedora and RHEL)



  10. Links 4/6/2020: Proton 5.0-8 Release Candidate, GNU Linux-libre 5.7

    Links for the day



  11. IRC Proceedings: Wednesday, June 03, 2020

    IRC logs for Wednesday, June 03, 2020



  12. Social Engineering of Free Software, Based on Corporate Criteria

    What "professional" nowadays means in the context of coding and honest assessment of technical work



  13. Weakening GNU/Linux by Disempowering Its Leaders and Founders, Replacing Them With Microsoft Employees and GNU/Linux-Hostile Moles

    The coup to remove (or remove power from) Stallman and Torvalds, the GNU and Linux founders respectively, is followed by outsourcing of their work to Microsoft’s newly-acquired monopoly (GitHub) and appointment of Microsoft workers or Microsoft-friendly people, shoehorning them into top roles under the disingenuous guise of "professionalism"



  14. Sword Group Violates Its Own Commitment by Working for the EPO

    The European Patent Office (EPO) keeps outsourcing its work to outside contractors (for-profit private entities) to the tune of hundreds of millions if not billions — all this without any oversight



  15. In 2020 Canonical No Longer Fights for Freedom

    Freedom requires a GNU/Linux distro other than Ubuntu, which seems unwilling or unable/incapable of speaking about and promoting the ideals of GNU/Linux



  16. We Need to Use the F Word (Freedom) to Promote Adoption of GNU/Linux

    "People get the government their behavior deserves. People deserve better than that." -Richard Stallman



  17. People Who Want to Explore GNU/Linux With Ubuntu See This Today

    "Wait, am I in a GNU/Linux blog or another Windows blog," a visitor might think... or, is Microsoft 'taking over' messaging at Canonical? (Same with code)



  18. Links 4/6/2020: Septor 2020.3, Nextcloud and Blender 2.83

    Links for the day



  19. Hey, Where's Red Hat (IBM)?

    Red Hat is conspicuously silent at these critical times (in its home country); Must be too busy hailing and cashing in on Trump's military (state) while dishing out shallow and self-contradictory diversity PR/fluff…



  20. Microsoft's Latest Vapourware About Supercomputers

    Microsoft has spent almost two decades dropping supercomputers vapourware on the media, but those misinformation dumps always turn out to be 100% hot air, no substance



  21. 2020: A Time for Resolutions or Revolutions?

    There are nonviolent means by which the current system can be corrected; we need to convince peers and relatives to change the way they behave and not cooperate with unjust elements of the system



  22. IRC Proceedings: Tuesday, June 02, 2020

    IRC logs for Tuesday, June 02, 2020



  23. The Gates Press (GatesGate) -- Part I: Lost the Job After Writing an Article Critical of Bill Gates for Attacking Some Actual, Legitimate Charities (Because They Had Spread GNU/Linux)

    The sociopaths from the fake 'charity' of Bill Gates would go to great lengths to squash criticism and also to eliminate critics; this series tells the story of some of those personally affected



  24. Don't Fall for the Spin, Microsoft is Laying Off Workers and It's Not Just Because of the Pandemic





  25. All They Want is Litigation, Not Innovation

    It's getting difficult to ignore or to overlook the fact that the 'litigation lobby' (the likes of Team UPC and today's EPO management, guided by groups like the Licensing Executives Society International) doesn't care about innovation and is in fact looking to profit by crushing innovation



  26. Reminder: Microsoft Profits From Crushing Protesters for Donald Trump

    Don't lose sight of the fact that what's going on in the United States right now is very profitable to Microsoft



  27. No, GNU/Linux Isn't at 3% and Windows Isn't at Over 90%, Either

    This ludicrous idea that "Linux" (however one defines it) enjoys just 3% of the "market" is false and it should be treated as laughable spin (it is being widely promoted this week, often by Microsoft boosters looking to make charts where Windows stays at above 90% and Vista 10 is 'gaining'... at the expense of Windows)



  28. Links 3/6/2020: Devuan Beowulf 3.0.0 and Tails 4.7 Released

    Links for the day



  29. Links 2/6/2020: New Firefox Release (77), Debian-based MX Linux 19.2, KDevelop 5.5.2, GNU/Linux Growth on Desktops/Laptops

    Links for the day



  30. Techrights Can Figure Out Source Protection/Anonymisation Whilst Operating Very Transparently

    We're still quite radically transparent whilst at the same time enjoying 100% source protection record; we're also improving the software we use to publish more quickly and efficiently


RSS 64x64RSS Feed: subscribe to the RSS feed for regular updates

Home iconSite Wiki: You can improve this site by helping the extension of the site's content

Home iconSite Home: Background about the site and some key features in the front page

Chat iconIRC Channel: Come and chat with us in real time

Recent Posts