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IRC: #boycottnovell @ FreeNode: May 4th, 2009

Posted in IRC Logs at 4:56 am by Dr. Roy Schestowitz


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To use your own IRC client, join channel #boycottnovell in FreeNode.

schestowitz Came out of nowhere from a  NOVELL employee May 04 00:00
tacone we’ll see. May 04 00:00
schestowitz They sacked him, so he ruins their crown jewel May 04 00:00
schestowitz Moved to Fedora too May 04 00:00
schestowitz Maybe Red Hat will hire him May 04 00:00
tacone maybe not. May 04 00:00
tacone problem is, a port is never enough. May 04 00:00
tacone but let’s wait. possibly a dev team will form May 04 00:01
schestowitz Well, for starters… May 04 00:07
The_Mad_Hatter Yes, the Mono folks are nervous right now. May 04 00:07
schestowitz gnote is a good way to begin the coversation about the issues with Mono May 04 00:07
tacone the real impact it can have is getting included in redhat May 04 00:07
schestowitz People begin to engage in the debate they read about May 04 00:07
schestowitz They see arguments over Mono May 04 00:07
tacone as red hat doesn’t include mono apps by default May 04 00:07
tacone that’d bring devs. May 04 00:07
schestowitz A lot of people never knew about the controversy May 04 00:07
schestowitz Now they know May 04 00:07
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Balrog_ schestowitz: still here? May 04 01:03
schestowitz Yep, what’s up? May 04 01:04
Balrog_ some chinese site reposted the lwn article May 04 01:04
Balrog_ it’s pro-Tomboy, btw May 04 01:05
Balrog_ and attacks relicensing under GPL3 May 04 01:05
Balrog_ did you see the article? May 04 01:07
Balrog_ << schestowitz May 04 01:07
schestowitz He praised gnote for technical aspects May 04 01:08
Balrog_ for the most part … May 04 01:10
oiaohm Insults don’t worry me. May 04 01:50
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oiaohm Mono guys have been shocked by how fast it has taken for tomboy to loss traction. May 04 01:51
oiaohm schestowitz: just wondering what thread I was insulted on. May 04 01:52
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schestowitz Jo’s May 04 01:58
schestowitz monkey site May 04 01:58
schestowitz gn May 04 01:58
oiaohm http://www2.apebox.org/wordpress/r…  << This one schestowitz May 04 02:00
oiaohm He kinda walked straight into it. May 04 02:00
oiaohm First post was bate. May 04 02:00
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twitter Sweeds strike back.  http://www.afterdawn.com/news/a… May 04 03:08
twitter Good for them.  All ISPs should be like that. May 04 03:08
twitter Snooping on email and web traffic does not solve crimes, it is itself a crime that enables other forms of oppression. May 04 03:10
twitter RMS blasts Apple http://www.stallman.org/archi… May 2009 (DMCA to censor discussion) May 04 03:17
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twitter “Apple is as nasty and vicious as Microsoft, and people should think of it as an enemy.” May 04 03:17
twitter That’s a powerful opinion.  I wonder if he knows just how bad M$ has been. May 04 03:17
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twitter Wow, what a bunch of asses.  http://www.prwatch.org/node/8351 May 04 04:32
twitter An energy industry lobby group ignored the advice of their own scientists in order to lie about climate change. May 04 04:33
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schestowitz http://www.kansascity.com/105/… May 04 07:40
schestowitz http://www.nbr.co.nz/article/ent… May 04 07:42
schestowitz Mental monopolies watch: Consumers International IP Watch List Report 2009 < http://a2knetwork.org/watchlist > May 04 07:45
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MinceR j0 May 04 08:50
schestowitz Subject: [PATCH] Add CONFIG_MONO_NO_CREATE WITH_MS_PATENTS option < http://boycottnovell.com/2009… > May 04 08:58
schestowitz Based on my memory alone, this was said before it turned out that Miguel knows the man called LinuxHater: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/04/mig… May 04 09:11
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tacone i loved linux hater as well in the past May 04 09:12
amarsh04 gnote has been requested for inclusion in Debian (the submitter is a Debian developer for GRUB): http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-b… May 04 09:13
tacone in a way i think it will be difficult not to include it in ubuntu if it makes it in debian desktop. May 04 09:13
tacone that sai, ubuntu has a handful of mono lovers. May 04 09:14
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tacone reading last development i should call them mono activists. as they’re actively pushing for mono because it’s mono. May 04 09:16
tacone also schestowitz, ping May 04 09:16
tacone schestowitz: call me prv when you get back. May 04 09:17
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schestowitz Hey, tacone May 04 09:59
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05… Microsoft Fights to Make GNU/Linux a Fringe Phenomenon May 04 10:00
tacone schestowitz: i wrote you in prv. May 04 10:00
schestowitz oh May 04 10:01
schestowitz yes May 04 10:01
schestowitz TuxMachines cites it a lot too May 04 10:01
schestowitz No blog posts while away….. http://www.stefanoforenza.com/ May 04 10:02
tacone ? May 04 10:02
tacone i have been in paris 2 weeks. May 04 10:03
tacone schestowitz: query me. May 04 10:03
schestowitz No Internet in Paris? :-p May 04 10:03
schestowitz Query about what? May 04 10:04
tacone not that much. and no time. May 04 10:04
tacone nothing, leave it alone. May 04 10:04
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amarsh04 quite a lot of discussion on gnote in the page referenced by the URL I posted May 04 10:09
iwmw does gnote break any patents and is it gpled? May 04 10:10
benJIman Almost certainly violates patents, what software doesn’t. May 04 10:11
schestowitz It’s gplv3 May 04 10:13
schestowitz The question is, WHOSE patents. May 04 10:13
schestowitz Also, how valid would a claim be? May 04 10:14
schestowitz Mono is a case of stepping right on MS’ toes. May 04 10:14
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*benJIman giggles at boy calling linuxhater “an obscene anti-Linux blogger who flames GNU/Linux developers as well as recites and thus propagates old injurious myths.” after trolling gnu/linux developers & promoting myths about c# in the same post. May 04 10:16
schestowitz RMS re Phorm: “The B’liar/Clown policy towards business is, “Give business as much as the people will let us get away with.” This is typical of the governments serve as subalterns for the corporate empire.” May 04 10:18
schestowitz The Green Party’s 100-Day Report Card  http://greenparty.tribe.net/thr… May 04 10:20
schestowitz FBI E-Mail Says Bush Authorized Abuse of Iraqis  < http://www.pubrecord.org/tortu… > May 04 10:21
schestowitz Polish pianist stops show with anti-US tirade < http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/a… > May 04 10:25
schestowitz The press is dying. WPP To Cut 7,200 Positions This Year; About Half Of Cuts Have Already Taken Place < http://www.paidcontent.org/entry/41… > May 04 10:47
zoobab01 Microsoft has denied that its recent dust-up with TomTom over nine patents relating to car navigation technology ended when the Dutch company agreed a financial settlement of less than $500,000. The claim was made by Keith Bergelt, CEO of the Open Invention Network during a presentation he was giving at the European Patent Forum in Prague. At the time the settlement was announced, the amount involved was kept confidential. However, in response to .. May 04 10:54
zoobab01 http://www.iam-magazine.com/… May 04 10:54
zoobab01 http://www.iam-magazine.com/Blog/Detail… May 04 10:54
zoobab01 you need a login to view the blog May 04 10:54
zoobab01 please blog about it May 04 10:54
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Eruaran|alphates A disgusting Microsoft proxy: www.consumerwatchdog.org May 04 11:34
Eruaran|alphates A supposed consumer watchdog… search their site for “Microsoft” and what you get is a string of anti-Google articles. Microsoft, the Standard Oil of the IT world, gets only ever mentioned in a positive light. May 04 11:35
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Eruaran|alphates Simply a pathetic and disgusting front. May 04 11:36
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schestowitz Can you find a site about them? May 04 12:01
schestowitz Maybe SourceWatch? May 04 12:01
iwmw Brazil bypasses patent on Merck AIDS drug: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsd… May 04 12:01
schestowitz http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C… May 04 12:02
schestowitz # Consumer Watchdog (USA), an organization which advocates for taxpayer and consumer interests in the United States May 04 12:02
schestowitz “formerly the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights)” May 04 12:03
schestowitz So they nymshift May 04 12:03
schestowitz That’s what companies that get expose do May 04 12:03
schestowitz Like ATL=>ACT May 04 12:03
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schestowitz “The group’s mission statement says “Big Business has an endless amount of money and thousands of lobbyists working every day to protect and increase their profits – no matter who it hurts. We get in their way and work to protect and improve the lives of American consumers and taxpayers.”” May 04 12:04
schestowitz Yeah… like ACT ‘helps small businesses’ May 04 12:04
schestowitz By legalising sw pats and working for OOXML May 04 12:04
oiaohm There are a lot of MS funding FUD. May 04 12:05
schestowitz http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corp… “It’s Not Just Microsoft That’s Balking At Google’s Book Plans” May 04 12:05
schestowitz Who funds these people? May 04 12:05
schestowitz There’s also this: http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corpor… May 04 12:07
schestowitz The site runs Linux: http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_r… May 04 12:07
schestowitz Let’s do whois May 04 12:07
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schestowitz Domain ID:D863261-LROR May 04 12:09
schestowitz Domain Name:CONSUMERWATCHDOG.ORG May 04 12:09
schestowitz Created On:03-Jun-1997 04:00:00 UTC May 04 12:09
schestowitz Last Updated On:07-Jun-2008 00:26:36 UTC May 04 12:09
schestowitz Expiration Date:02-Jun-2010 04:00:00 UTC May 04 12:09
schestowitz Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR) May 04 12:09
schestowitz Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED May 04 12:09
schestowitz Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED May 04 12:09
schestowitz Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED May 04 12:09
schestowitz Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant ID:GODA-044511122 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Name:Doug Heller May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Organization:Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rig May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Street1:1750 Ocean Park Blvd. May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Street2:Ste 200 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Street3: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant City:Santa Monica May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant State/Province:California May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Postal Code:90405 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Country:US May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Phone:+1.3103920522 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Phone Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant FAX: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant FAX Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Registrant Email:webmaster@consumerwatchdog.org May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin ID:GODA-244511122 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Name:Doug Heller May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Organization:Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rig May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Street1:1750 Ocean Park Blvd. May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Street2:Ste 200 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Street3: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin City:Santa Monica May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin State/Province:California May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Postal Code:90405 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Country:US May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Phone:+1.3103920522 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Phone Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin FAX: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin FAX Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Admin Email:doug@consumerwatchdog.org May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech ID:GODA-144511122 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Name:Domain Direct May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Organization:TUCOWS.com Inc. May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Street1:96 Mowat Avenue May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Street2: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Street3: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech City:Toronto May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech State/Province:Ontario May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Postal Code:M6K3M1 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Country:CA May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Phone:+1.4165350123 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Phone Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech FAX:+1.4165315584 May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech FAX Ext.: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Tech Email:dnstech@domaindirect.com May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server:NS1.GRASSROOTS.COM May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server:NS2.GRASSROOTS.COM May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz Name Server: May 04 12:09
schestowitz ========= May 04 12:10
schestowitz Name Server:NS1.GRASSROOTS.COM May 04 12:10
schestowitz Grassroots? May 04 12:10
schestowitz http://www.hellerspringfield.com/more/bio.htm “Doug and his partners sold the company to Seattle-based Apex Learning, a company founded by Microsoft co-founder Paul Allen.” I think it’s a different guy with the same name though May 04 12:11
oiaohm http://www.grassroots.com/  Step back one.   schestowitz.  Its another site run by PR for higher. May 04 12:11
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schestowitz http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corp… “Interview on Corporate Crime with Doug Heller – Consumer Advocate with FTCR” May 04 12:12
oiaohm At Grassroots Enterprise, we combine the best of cutting-edge Internet technology with tried and true communications strategies to build movements that make an impact. May 04 12:12
schestowitz They say MS beats Google on privacy. They haven’t tried Vista, have they?? :-) May 04 12:12
oiaohm The complete website is built by Grassroots. May 04 12:12
oiaohm Also DNS hosted by them. May 04 12:13
schestowitz So it’s a PR? May 04 12:13
schestowitz But are they doing this for clients? May 04 12:13
oiaohm Clients is still who. May 04 12:13
schestowitz http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?titl… May 04 12:13
schestowitz This is a good source for the PR industry May 04 12:13
schestowitz Let’s see….. May 04 12:13
schestowitz “combines online technology and communications strategy to help our clients achieve their public affairs objectives. Our proprietary technology Grassroots Multiplier® uses the Internet to centralize and simplify the recruitment, management, and mobilization of our clients’ supporters – employees, members, customers, vendors and other stakeholders who can grow into a long-term asset to our clients’ business.” May 04 12:14
schestowitz Our CLIENTS??? May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Arvind Rajan, Chairman May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * John Hlinko, CEO May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * David S. Chiu, Senior Vice President and General Counsel, Co-founder May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Robert Florian, Executive Vice President, Engineering May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Bill McIntyre Executive Vice President May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Kevin McCann, Executive Vice President, Client Services May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Mike Panetta, Vice President, Public Affairs and Emerging Media May 04 12:14
schestowitz     * Kevin O’Neill, Managing Director May 04 12:14
oiaohm http://www.grassroots.com/wha…  << They are one of the nastier PR companies you can get. May 04 12:16
oiaohm Yep spam hibrid with telemarketing hibrid with internet. May 04 12:18
schestowitz Heh. May 04 12:23
schestowitz Eruaran: I’ll post about it l8er May 04 12:23
oiaohm http://cwd.grassroots.com/about/   I like how they say formally this other name even that they are still running website under the other name. May 04 12:25
oiaohm PR games are PR games.   There are a lot groups pushing there own ends. May 04 12:27
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schestowitz Hehe. May 04 13:29
schestowitz Let’s do a quick post May 04 13:29
Eruaran|alphates sorry i was afk May 04 13:40
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schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05… – Did Microsoft Hire Consumer Watchdog to Attack Google? May 04 14:25
oiaohm There is a huge world of PR bending items. May 04 14:40
oiaohm http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php…  You really should have read who the vice president of grassroots.com May 04 14:43
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oiaohm This PR game goes all the way to the USA white house. May 04 14:48
schestowitz yeah, politics are a related mess: http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.ph… May 04 15:05
schestowitz Can’t ignore politics when dealing with IT lobbies May 04 15:05
oiaohm Enough digging will find USA politics locked up in lot of grassroot stuff. May 04 15:06
oiaohm Even worse parties having different people support incompadible ideas to get donations. May 04 15:06
oiaohm USA political system is basically screwed. May 04 15:07
iwmw usa political system was basicually screwed all the time May 04 15:09
oiaohm Problem is the usa political system screwed ripples out and effects other things. May 04 15:16
schestowitz Worldwide May 04 15:17
schestowitz See regulation of banks for instance May 04 15:17
schestowitz If you watch the analysis you will see the deregulation was lobbies for May 04 15:17
schestowitz IIRC for sub-prime also May 04 15:17
schestowitz A system that is policed by those whom it’s supposed to guard will entangle itself in corruption May 04 15:17
schestowitz Obama is Bush’s successor in that regard. Industry said taxpayers should suffer even more by paying to buy companies more time May 04 15:18
schestowitz And guess what Obama did? You always know. I think they renamed ‘bailout’ “stimulus”. It’s another art of nymshifts May 04 15:18
schestowitz People resisted the bailout May 04 15:18
schestowitz Historians will be confused by the diversity of terms May 04 15:19
schestowitz So the stimulus was a second go under a different heading May 04 15:19
schestowitz Like “harmonisation” in the EU May 04 15:19
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schestowitz “Superdelegates”…. May 04 15:40
schestowitz As some say, the election in the US is essentially run by the PR industry. It’s like a contest for these. May 04 15:40
iwmw the election in us is just a theatre with stand-alone jurys that set scores that they want to see May 04 15:42
iwmw aka real rulers of US :)) May 04 15:43
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schestowitz http://www.theopensourcerer.com/2009/05/… “Mono is a cancer that attaches itself in an intellectual property sense to everything it touches.” May 04 16:06
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schestowitz http://www.itwire.com/conte… (IT&T joins other sectors in jobs death spiral) May 04 16:49
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mib_mqudvk hi.  is anyone one now? May 04 16:53
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schestowitz Hey May 04 16:57
mib_8wo4qb hey May 04 16:57
schestowitz I see you reentered. Didn’t notice you coming May 04 16:57
schestowitz Network connectivity issues here today May 04 16:57
mib_8wo4qb This is Will.  Got some ODF news for you May 04 16:57
schestowitz So MS’ ‘support’ for ODF turns out to be a scam May 04 16:58
schestowitz I saw Rob’s blog May 04 16:58
schestowitz I probably should write about it now, not later, right? May 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qb How did you know?  ;) May 04 16:58
schestowitz mib_8wo4qb: I saw the twit May 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qb Groklaw has some stuff on it too May 04 16:58
mib_8wo4qb http://www.groklaw.net/article.ph… May 04 16:58
schestowitz “harishpillayRT: @cappellathx: is not surprised MS Office 2007 SP2 ODF support screws up big time. http://tinyurl.com/de6afl May 04 16:58
*schestowitz looks May 04 16:59
mib_8wo4qb Granted, the plural of “anecdote” is not necessarily “data”, but I’m not surprised about this May 04 16:59
mib_8wo4qb I expect more of these reports to start showing up May 04 16:59
schestowitz Yes, me too May 04 17:03
schestowitz I suppose I won’t need to hurry much May 04 17:04
schestowitz People already see this ‘news’ (expccted) in many places May 04 17:04
schestowitz I’ll collect some more evidence May 04 17:04
schestowitz It’s clear what Microsoft achieves by this May 04 17:04
mib_8wo4qb Of course. “See. ODF is broken, so use OOXML instead.” May 04 17:05
mib_8wo4qb The question is, are they doing this in a way that leaves them open for another EU investigation? May 04 17:06
mib_8wo4qb Or, instead of my first “quote”, maybe “Hey! Look! We support ODF too (kind of), so you can keep buying MS Office!” May 04 17:08
schestowitz Yes May 04 17:08
schestowitz It’s a bit of both May 04 17:08
schestowitz ASAP putting some “ODF” label May 04 17:09
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schestowitz mib_8wo4qb: do you read Groklaw? May 04 17:10
schestowitz I’d like to know if Jesper/Alex/Doug or another one from the Microsoft anti-ODF cartel shows up in the comments on Weir’s analysis May 04 17:11
mib_8wo4qb semi-regularly.  More often when something is going on in the news (Like the TomTom case), less often when things seem to be quiet. May 04 17:11
mib_8wo4qb I don’t usually read much in the comments.  Mostly just the news and analysis.  But PJ also does a good job of keeping the trolls out. May 04 17:13
schestowitz By ignoring? May 04 17:15
schestowitz Or does she still delete and toss out? May 04 17:15
schestowitz Cause I believe this to be a defeatist approach May 04 17:15
schestowitz Like censorship May 04 17:15
schestowitz Woo… May 04 17:16
schestowitz More MS layoffs May 04 17:16
schestowitz I guess, “yay” May 04 17:16
schestowitz Let me post about it to raise morale of BN readers May 04 17:17
mib_8wo4qb Well, ok, she still deletes and toss out.  Though I rarely if ever run into troll posts there.  Don’t know if that means mostly diligent deletion or self-selecting readership. May 04 17:18
*schestowitz runs out of free pictures of sinking ships May 04 17:22
mib_8wo4qb well, gotta go for now.  Looking forward to the ODF post, but yeah, take your time and get as much evidence as you can. May 04 17:26
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schestowitz A reliable source says that Microsoft will announce more layoffs tomorrow: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/… May 04 17:35
schestowitz Just got this: “Dear Roy Schestowitz, Starting later this month, the MATLAB Central File Exchange will adopt the well-known and widely used open-source BSD License as the standard license for posted content. As a File Exchange contributor, you are receiving notice of this new policy in advance of its implementation. No action is required now. We’ll contact you again when a FAQ list is available and you are able to update your exist May 04 17:45
schestowitz ing files. “ May 04 17:45
schestowitz Me?????? BSD?????? Wot wot wot?? May 04 17:45
schestowitz Just got this: “Tax saving lobbying via Obama” — Obama seeks tax changes for U.S. firms overseas < http://www.reuters.com/article/newsO… > May 04 17:47
libervisco hmm May 04 17:47
schestowitz That charming OBAMAA. He takes from the poor and he… or wait.. I lost my train of thought. May 04 17:48
libervisco yeah May 04 17:49
MinceR he takes money from the rich and poor and gives control to the rich. May 04 17:49
MinceR (certain rich, that is.) May 04 17:49
schestowitz “Hey, John Sixpack, how ’bout ya gives me your tax for the next ten years so I can secure the bonus of GM’s CEO?” May 04 17:49
MinceR :) May 04 17:49
libervisco I was reading that article about Banshee getting into Ubuntu, then following some links etc.. and.. May 04 17:49
schestowitz It’s not there yet, but they lobby for it May 04 17:50
schestowitz The Mono fans are breathing down Ubuntu’s neck because it’s their best injection vector (most users) May 04 17:50
libervisco well, I actually tried Vista recently, and dual boot XP, I’m not a FOSS purist anymore, but I think the battle you’re in is really against corporatism and a lot of what you say makes sense in that way May 04 17:50
schestowitz It’s hopeless if you raise the issue in Brainstorm or a bug report or even the forums. The Mono guards show up and attack the message/messenger May 04 17:51
libervisco :S May 04 17:51
schestowitz libervisco: if it’s not for Freedom, what else? May 04 17:51
schestowitz Mac fans are pathetic in a way May 04 17:51
schestowitz They just promote one multi-billion company over another May 04 17:51
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schestowitz Companies like that already spend billions on that (paying PR people). THey don’t need volunteers May 04 17:52
vida18 Update on ODF Spreadsheet Interoperability. May 04 17:52
vida18 http://www.robweir.com/blog/2009/0… May 04 17:52
schestowitz Goblin has just cause another Turfer: http://openbytes.wordpress.com/2009/0… May 04 17:52
schestowitz vida18: yes, I saw that May 04 17:53
schestowitz I still accumulate stuff about it. It’s already out there, so we need a unique angle May 04 17:53
libervisco schestowitz, it’s about freedom, yeah, but not necessarily as defined by RMS.. well, to stop beating around the bush, for me freedom is freedom from coercion, which means freedom from government and by extension freedom from corporatism May 04 17:53
schestowitz yes May 04 17:54
schestowitz RMS is just one in many May 04 17:54
schestowitz Tomorrow could be a happy day for Freedom May 04 17:54
schestowitz Microsoft layoffs May 04 17:54
libervisco so any company that uses legal threats (like patents).. isn’t really likable to me.. May 04 17:54
schestowitz maybe another 5000 to be let go. Who knows… May 04 17:54
schestowitz libervisco: RMS looks beyond software May 04 17:54
libervisco well.. those are still just employees.. May 04 17:54
schestowitz i don’t know how long he has done that for. May 04 17:54
schestowitz libervisco: yes, and they can work for an ethical company May 04 17:54
schestowitz There’s no lack for jobs May 04 17:55
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libervisco I don’t know about that :S May 04 17:55
schestowitz Any barrier as such is caused by culture May 04 17:55
schestowitz Many people won’t work as farmers May 04 17:55
schestowitz it’s inconveivable to them May 04 17:55
libervisco I wont either and I don’t think they should May 04 17:55
schestowitz RMS gets the stares when people are told that doing gardening is best than oppressive tools like Phorm May 04 17:55
MinceR i won’t either May 04 17:55
libervisco I think the problem is far more fundamental than any of these employees.. nowadays not even you and I can live a civil life without depending *to some extent* on the products of corporatism.. May 04 17:56
schestowitz Yes, modern life is like that May 04 17:56
schestowitz Even energy is like that May 04 17:56
libervisco the issue isn’t us so much as it’s the fact we’re not being given much choice May 04 17:56
schestowitz So when you take a shower you depend on the oil giants May 04 17:56
libervisco *us May 04 17:56
libervisco right.. May 04 17:57
schestowitz It’s an unwinnable battle May 04 17:57
schestowitz But you have regularisers May 04 17:57
libervisco it’s not :) May 04 17:57
libervisco you just have to know where to strike May 04 17:57
schestowitz Without them, you have things like slavery and cannibalism and who knows what else. May 04 17:57
libervisco you chose MS and their particular fascist (corporatist) links.. May 04 17:58
schestowitz Human kind advanced by banning all sorts of things including torture May 04 17:58
libervisco but I’m gonna go even further May 04 17:58
schestowitz Now that the US public is apathetic, US tortture make a comeback May 04 17:58
libervisco yeah May 04 17:58
schestowitz There are many other areas May 04 17:58
schestowitz Like environment May 04 17:58
schestowitz Techies and geeks rarely look into it May 04 17:59
libervisco I’m gonna strike the concept of government and politics as a whole. My goal is to eradicate it completely in this century. May 04 18:00
schestowitz Yes, a form of anarchism May 04 18:01
libervisco that’s called striking the root, with it the cause of corporatism, environmentalist problems and most other things is down May 04 18:01
schestowitz Which some people conveniently confuse with other stuff May 04 18:01
schestowitz MinceR is an anarchist May 04 18:01
libervisco market anarchist? May 04 18:01
schestowitz Paternal authorities might work May 04 18:01
schestowitz Some people think of anarchist as being not intellectuals but nutcases that mass-murdered people. May 04 18:02
libervisco oh I know :S May 04 18:02
libervisco that’s why I use the term “anarchist” sparsely and tend to use “voluntaryist” instead May 04 18:03
libervisco http://wikipedia.com/wiki/vo… May 04 18:03
libervisco in truth the only ones who ever mass murdered people were members of the government.. the latest example being the current US president.. http://obamabodycount.org/ May 04 18:05
libervisco the trouble is that the system of government is completely based on mutually outsourced responsibility so nobody actually feels responsible for those crimes.. from soldiers and cops “just following orders” to the president “just doing what he’s elected to do” to the electorate “just choosing the lesser evil”.. May 04 18:07
libervisco everyone plays the same bloody game May 04 18:07
libervisco including corporations who “just maximize shareholder value”… May 04 18:07
libervisco or even “serve the nation’s economy” May 04 18:08
schestowitz Why Users Aren’t Moving to Linux < http://community.zdnet.co.uk/blog/0,10… > May 04 18:11
*schestowitz looks at http://obamabodycount.org/ May 04 18:11
schestowitz It’s not OBAMAA BTW May 04 18:11
schestowitz I haven’t looked yet May 04 18:11
schestowitz He’s like the PR person May 04 18:11
libervisco well technically it’s nobody due to outsourced responsibility, nobody can be blamed entirely May 04 18:13
schestowitz I though over a million were killed or misplaced in Iraq May 04 18:14
libervisco not sure.. May 04 18:15
schestowitz I agree with you for simple reasons May 04 18:15
schestowitz A long time ago it was realised that mortal issues are more important than just ‘fair competition’ May 04 18:15
schestowitz But that’s a very big game May 04 18:15
schestowitz Many people involve and money weighed in trillions, not billions May 04 18:16
schestowitz It’s also more scary for an activist May 04 18:16
schestowitz Surveillance, life threats and all that. In IT you argue with engineers; with this ‘other’ thing you deal with soldiers, racists, and people who watch Fox ‘News’ :-D May 04 18:17
libervisco eh right May 04 18:17
libervisco I just think all these realms are on some fundamental level connected.. Both IT and other worlds exist in a market and this market’s functioning is completely disrupted by legalized coercion and violence May 04 18:19
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libervisco so whenever you see a moral issue chances are part of the cause is institutionalized violence May 04 18:20
libervisco patents are a clear cut example May 04 18:20
libervisco the institution of a “corporation” is another May 04 18:20
libervisco corporation isn’t a person nor a group of persons, it’s an imagined entity… and it has no soul May 04 18:21
schestowitz I never heard of the notion of “institutionalized violence” May 04 18:21
libervisco government is institutionalized violence May 04 18:21
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schestowitz Either way, to me it’s the fun of exposing stuff I see. May 04 18:21
libervisco because it has a monopoly on violence that people believe in May 04 18:21
schestowitz Whether it changes much, who cares? May 04 18:21
libervisco Changes? May 04 18:21
schestowitz It’s the big broadcasters with millions of viewers that weird power. May 04 18:22
libervisco they just share in the power May 04 18:22
schestowitz If Fox shows an Arab he always carries a Stinger or something. That war propaganda channel isn’t even concealing what it does May 04 18:22
libervisco tbh I think who exactly wields power is less important than the fact that people support anybody but themselves wielding power over themselves.. May 04 18:22
libervisco no matter who it is, broadcasters, presidents, bankers elites or reptiles, if people didn’t SUBMIT, no such power would be possible to maintain May 04 18:23
schestowitz It’s comforting to some May 04 18:23
schestowitz Being told what to do May 04 18:23
schestowitz Like blindly taking orders May 04 18:23
libervisco unfortunately May 04 18:23
schestowitz Some people are the opposite of you May 04 18:23
libervisco but that too has a cause :) May 04 18:23
libervisco a very very specific one :) May 04 18:23
schestowitz They flunked schools, they lost g/fs and now they just run to ‘friends’ in the army May 04 18:23
schestowitz A lot of people in the army started up this way May 04 18:24
libervisco right May 04 18:24
libervisco indeed! May 04 18:24
libervisco And why did they lose so much? May 04 18:24
schestowitz In places where it’s mandatory there’s brainwash and peer pressuire May 04 18:24
libervisco Why are they unhappy? May 04 18:24
schestowitz People who won’t serve get vilified and aliennated (they are taught to do this) and those who do the ‘Rambo job’ are hailed as heroes May 04 18:24
libervisco I’d say they weren’t allowed to flourish as individuals.. from the cradle onwards.. most parents still tyrannize kids.. May 04 18:25
libervisco right! May 04 18:25
libervisco so what’s the solution then? May 04 18:25
schestowitz I don’t know May 04 18:25
schestowitz I think there’s none May 04 18:25
schestowitz It has been the same for ages May 04 18:25
libervisco I do, it’s just not easy :) May 04 18:25
schestowitz Even the Raman Empire still exists May 04 18:25
schestowitz It’s mostly the Usian Army and its allies May 04 18:25
schestowitz Now we have China rising with financial muscle over the US. It is also a dictatorship May 04 18:26
libervisco The solution is to tell people to stop believing in violence and controlling each other, but not just to tell them to stop.. but lure them by asking if they want to rid themselves of imposed obligations they don’t like May 04 18:26
schestowitz Sounds like a church job May 04 18:26
schestowitz “Glory glory hallelujah” May 04 18:26
libervisco and then when they pay some attention, tell them WHY and HOW it’s possible to have a civil society without violence (coercion, government) May 04 18:26
libervisco nah May 04 18:26
schestowitz Pastors do this in the opposite direction May 04 18:26
schestowitz Junk food theories May 04 18:26
libervisco Pastors are part of the problem May 04 18:27
schestowitz Why read a boom about evolution/ May 04 18:27
schestowitz Just pick lazy people and feed them miracles May 04 18:27
libervisco Religion is a big part of the problem, superstition is the VERY reason people believe in violence May 04 18:27
libervisco we need science, moral science May 04 18:27
schestowitz Another person take pride in a gun and military might May 04 18:27
schestowitz We’re like stupid, stupid moneys May 04 18:27
schestowitz Monkeys haven’t figured out how to be equally destructive :-) May 04 18:27
schestowitz Not just among our specicies but the whole planet May 04 18:28
libervisco Anyway, I’ll link you to the site where I’ll do my part. Maybe it’ll shed some of your cynism :P May 04 18:28
libervisco I’ll prove to you just what is possible :) May 04 18:28
schestowitz Hehe. May 04 18:28
libervisco meanwhile a good recommendation is FreedomainRadio.com May 04 18:28
libervisco It’ll blow your freaking mind :P May 04 18:28
schestowitz Well, being cynical and some would say… well, not nihilist, but… I guess we just ought to do something we like and doesn’t hurt others May 04 18:29
schestowitz Nobody changes much anyway May 04 18:29
schestowitz But some people work jobs they hate to buts*it they don’t need May 04 18:29
schestowitz Wage slavery May 04 18:29
libervisco a problem with a solution as well May 04 18:29
schestowitz I found some good channels in YouTube also May 04 18:30
schestowitz (Yes, I know, it’s Flash) May 04 18:30
libervisco and about people not changing, it’s a myth, I changed.. people change slowly all the time.. change is more of a constant than stagnation May 04 18:30
libervisco the direction is what counts May 04 18:30
*schestowitz bookmarkrs Freedomain May 04 18:30
libervisco :) May 04 18:30
schestowitz Complacency comes later May 04 18:30
schestowitz Like, when people are imprisoned by what people from UIpAbove{Tm} call ReaLife{tm} May 04 18:31
schestowitz The LifeTreadmill May 04 18:31
schestowitz I should point you to a good talk from Guy Kawasaki May 04 18:31
schestowitz http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006… May 04 18:32
trmanco hello May 04 18:34
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schestowitz Has hub been in contact with anyone who is against Novell? May 04 18:35
schestowitz [other than sam varghese] May 04 18:35
*schestowitz looks out the window as it raining again in Bank Holiday May 04 18:36
libervisco schestowitz, some good advice in that talk.. except 10 since that can actually be quite counter-joyous May 04 18:39
libervisco schestowitz, btw, if you don’t like using flash I can recommend miro, you can subscribe to youtube channels (and other video sites, even searches) and download videos directly and view them in it :) May 04 18:44
libervisco unless you’re already using it of course :) May 04 18:45
schestowitz I do May 04 18:45
schestowitz Mandriva comes with it May 04 18:45
libervisco cool May 04 18:45
schestowitz But as a ‘distributor’ I use Ogg May 04 18:46
schestowitz Firefox will help some moree May 04 18:46
libervisco right May 04 18:46
Balrog_ schestowitz: what do you use to mirror web sites? May 04 18:52
schestowitz wget May 04 18:54
Balrog_ ok … someone wrote a script that uses wget to mirror a web site, then compresses it with rar … rar is proprietary but I’m sure that it could be replaced with something else at the expense some compression features May 04 18:56
schestowitz Patent on how to do you taxes: http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxpro… May 04 18:56
schestowitz Pay a tax for a method on doing your tax May 04 18:57
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schestowitz Mandriva 2009.1 “Spring” is Stunning < http://www.itnewstoday.com/?p=355 > That’s my favourite distro right now. May 04 19:02
Balrog_ “IBM Doubles Rewards For Ditching Sun” <http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid…> May 04 19:03
schestowitz “So there you have it, Mandriva 2009.1 is an amazing release. It has everything that Kubuntu lacks in a KDE distro. Kubuntu has always been my favorite distribution, yet a release as good as this one may convince me to make the switch.” May 04 19:04
schestowitz “To put it more simply, Mandriva 2009.1 is probably the best KDE-based distribution I have seen so far this year, and it’s everything that Kubuntu should have been. I definitely recommend anyone reading this to give Mandriva a shot. Hopefully you’ll find it as wonderful as I do.” May 04 19:04
schestowitz Good for Linux and IBM, I gues.s May 04 19:05
Balrog_ but bad for SPARC, which is a decent platform May 04 19:05
trmanco schestowitz, http://lwn.net/Articles/331187/ do you have a mirror for this? May 04 19:18
schestowitz trmanco: yes May 04 19:21
schestowitz “Nobody has to tell me what I really want is never gonna happen. But how close can we come? Tell me, dear Reader: What is being developed to make life on Linux beautiful without X.org?” http://jehurst.wordpress.com/2009/0… May 04 19:22
schestowitz The MS shills try to depress Linux users, still. May 04 19:25
schestowitz Overview of Ubuntu in the Highstreet < http://doctormo.wordpress.com/2009/05/02/o… > May 04 19:25
bgtr4 m$ is depressing May 04 19:25
bgtr4 even for windows users May 04 19:25
bgtr4 but they seem addicted May 04 19:26
trmanco schestowitz, can I see it? May 04 19:26
schestowitz Maybe I’d be depressed if I used Windows May 04 19:35
schestowitz When you know Microsoft’s life you’re more uplifted May 04 19:36
schestowitz You just need to know the spins :-) May 04 19:36
schestowitz Explaining it becomes easier when you amass work and many pertinent examples that show your point (external refs) May 04 19:36
schestowitz Since Microsoft’s GMs are asking about BN, we’re on the right topic May 04 19:37
schestowitz The following two pages receive many visits today because of Net Applications’ FUD: http://boycottnovell.com/2009/0… http://boycottnovell.com/2009/02/03… May 04 19:38
schestowitz The AstroTurf just mailed May 04 19:48
schestowitz me May 04 19:48
schestowitz The anti-Google one May 04 19:48
schestowitz They do damage control when exposed May 04 19:48
trmanco is there anyway I can read the email? May 04 19:50
trmanco can you fwd it to me :-P May 04 19:50
schestowitz http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/04/con… May 04 19:57
schestowitz I’m having a little fun with it May 04 19:57
schestowitz it’s not E-mail May 04 19:58
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schestowitz It’s shill-mail May 04 19:58
schestowitz Roy - May 04 19:58
schestowitz Not sure if you saw our comment on your blog about Consumer Watchdog’s work on Google. (I noticed it when it showed up, of course, in a Google Alert!) In case you didn’t see the comment, Grassroots.com is just our web host.  We’re no more affiliated with them than we’re affiliated with our ISP and phone company.   May 04 19:58
schestowitz As you will see from the reporting on our battle with Google, it is funded with a grant from the privacy rights oriented Rose Foundation, based in California.  At one point, Google sent a nasty letter to that charitable foundation trying to defund us. Here’s a rundown on that from my colleague: http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/corp… . May 04 19:58
schestowitz Anyway, I just want to make sure that, if in fact you are coming at this independently, you take a minute to review our work at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/ before you jump to any further conclusions based on the fact that we chose Grassroots rather than Convio — which was the other hosting company pitching their servers to nonprofits when we were looking — to host our site. May 04 19:58
schestowitz Sincerely, May 04 19:58
schestowitz Doug May 04 19:58
schestowitz May 04 19:58
schestowitz Douglas Heller May 04 19:58
schestowitz Executive Director May 04 19:58
schestowitz Consumer Watchdog May 04 19:58
schestowitz formerly The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights May 04 19:58
schestowitz 310-392-0522 ext. 309 May 04 19:58
schestowitz http://www.consumerwatchdog.org May 04 19:58
schestowitz Brilliant. Canonical is using Oxygen (KDE4) icons in its GTK/GNOME desktop: http://www.ozelwebtasarim.com/index.p… May 04 20:03
trmanco hmm, ok May 04 20:04
MinceR what’s wrong with that? May 04 20:05
trmanco interesting May 04 20:07
schestowitz Cingular Wireless Refutes Lawsuit Filed By the Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights http://www.redorbit.com/news/technolo… May 04 20:07
schestowitz He tactlessly told me that Google did complain about them May 04 20:07
schestowitz This means that even a company with lawyers reached the conclusion that there was harassment. I don’t think it’s public knowledge. May 04 20:07
schestowitz Maybe they just use Google to make big headlines May 04 20:07
schestowitz Alex Zaharov-Reutt took his FUD and shilling for Microsoft elsewhere: http://vista.blorge.com/2009/05/03/wi… May 04 20:09
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gnutz Lol…”we’ve got the ability to work better on older hardware”. May 04 20:11
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gnutz …maybe as of 7′s release date. May 04 20:11
schestowitz It’s Microsoft marketing people May 04 20:12
schestowitz Like the Gartenberg shill today: http://www.daniweb.com/blogs/e… May 04 20:12
schestowitz People don’t know who’s who May 04 20:12
schestowitz They seem not to know that these are Microsoft shills who pubnlished anti-Linux articles May 04 20:12
schestowitz People who claimed Zune to be a success back in the days. May 04 20:12
gnutz They literally couldn’t give those things away.  I think I remember reading about MS supplying developers with copies of XP with which to use their Zunes; both ended up on eBay. May 04 20:16
schestowitz Does that count as two sales? May 04 20:23
schestowitz :-) May 04 20:23
MinceR obviously May 04 20:23
gnutz IIRC they were conference freebies. May 04 20:23
schestowitz Microsoft loves multi-dipping. Countering one sale as many… done that with Vista. Another method is channel-stuffing, which it did aggressively in Zune’s case and got busted. May 04 20:24
MinceR then they count as sales for $0 May 04 20:24
schestowitz I have some good posts to do May 04 20:24
schestowitz PatheticSoft May 04 20:24
schestowitz I’ll try to finish them before MS announced more layoffs May 04 20:24
schestowitz Cause then I need to go out May 04 20:24
schestowitz (to get popcorn) May 04 20:24
gnutz later. May 04 20:25
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schestowitz Now public: Oracle: SELECT * FROM Sun < http://lwn.net/Articles/329223/ > May 04 20:32
MinceR select * from sun into oracle; May 04 20:33
trmanco hehe May 04 20:34
trmanco easy language sql :-P May 04 20:34
trmanco it’s very straight forward May 04 20:34
trmanco ESP launches en.swpat.org: A Wiki for Anti-Software Patent Campaigns: http://campaigns.fsf.org/pipermai… May 04 20:35
MinceR sql is only easy for trivial queries May 04 20:43
MinceR its powerless and braindead nature become quite apparent when you try anything nontrivial May 04 20:43
trmanco Study says silent updates enhance security: http://www.h-online.com/security/Study… May 04 20:45
trmanco yeah, thats true May 04 20:45
schestowitz Justice Scalia’s Dossier: Interesting Issues about Privacy and Ethics < http://www.concurringopinions.com/archi… > May 04 21:02
schestowitz trmanco: point is……? May 04 21:05
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schestowitz Intel’s Grove: Something foul in Silicon Valley < http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3… > They make him look like a monkey :-) May 04 21:16
Balrog_ schestowitz: what documents should I show people who are skeptical about MS doing what they really do? your site would be like ‘shock therapy’ which would not be good at first May 04 21:18
Balrog_ then when I say these things (like ‘Effective Evangelism’) they call it FUD May 04 21:21
Balrog_ schestowitz: what to do? May 04 21:21
trmanco http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?s… Nice article, this might have already been posted here May 04 21:22
Balrog_ trmanco: any ideas? May 04 21:22
trmanco schestowitz, can you extract that lwn article and email it to me? May 04 21:22
Balrog_ trmanco: one sec. May 04 21:23
trmanco Balrog_, microsoft wants to try and shape ODF, the same thing they tried to do with the internets May 04 21:23
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Balrog_ sure, I know May 04 21:24
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 21:26
schestowitz http://www.userfriendly.org/ May 04 21:26
schestowitz brb phone May 04 21:26
trmanco great article May 04 21:28
trmanco again -> http://torrentfreak.com/riaa-site… May 04 21:33
schestowitz Balrog_: use the ECIS document May 04 21:36
schestowitz It’s very recent and concise May 04 21:36
schestowitz BoycottNovell has a hostile site name (not my choice) May 04 21:36
Balrog_ yes … but they’ve seen the ecis document and say it goes overboard on some points May 04 21:37
schestowitz Which points? May 04 21:39
schestowitz MSO2007: the IE6 of the WWW May 04 21:41
schestowitz *of the documents world (ODF) May 04 21:41
trmanco time to call that office odf implementation MS-ODF May 04 21:41
trmanco cause of direct ODF implementation and compatibility is has less then 10% May 04 21:42
schestowitz The shulls are losing it May 04 21:42
schestowitz The E-mails go hostile. May 04 21:42
schestowitz Your blog on Consumer Watchdog May 04 21:42
schestowitz Roy (and please forward to your colleague Shane) - May 04 21:42
schestowitz Please feel free to contact me, if you are serious about your rants.  I’m not going to publicly attack your credibility by pointing out that you sell ad space to Google on your personal blogs.  But I suspect, that’s far more compromising than who we pay to serve our website.  As a consumer advocacy nonprofit for nearly 25 years, we know that our resources are better spent taking on crooked corporations and corrupt politicians t May 04 21:42
schestowitz han spent on an array of servers and building webpage templates for what our library of about 10,000 webpages.  (That’s not our skill set or mission.)   May 04 21:42
schestowitz As apparently savvy computer guys who also seem to be in the nonprofit sector, the fact that you don’t get this makes me question whether or not there’s some other motivation.  Today’s project for me is fighting off an insurance industry attempt to deregulate auto and homeowners insurance rates, so I’m getting back to that.  If you want to talk about Google or our webserver, feel free to give me a call. May 04 21:42
schestowitz Doug May 04 21:42
schestowitz May 04 21:42
schestowitz Douglas Heller May 04 21:42
schestowitz Executive Director May 04 21:42
schestowitz Consumer Watchdog May 04 21:42
schestowitz formerly The Foundation for Taxpayer and Consumer Rights May 04 21:42
schestowitz 310-392-0522 ext. 309 May 04 21:42
schestowitz http://www.consumerwatchdog.org May 04 21:42
schestowitz ======= May 04 21:43
schestowitz See Shane’s latest comment May 04 21:43
schestowitz They are being exposed BIG TIME. May 04 21:43
Balrog_ stuff about IE and WMP mostly May 04 21:43
trmanco he attacks google May 04 21:45
trmanco I see May 04 21:45
trmanco even more proof May 04 21:45
schestowitz No worries May 04 21:45
schestowitz They’ll just need to change name (again) May 04 21:45
schestowitz Or risk getting no customers/funding because they are always OWNED (exposeD) May 04 21:46
schestowitz Like ATL May 04 21:46
schestowitz I’ll do some COLA links now May 04 21:47
schestowitz Microsoft might announce layoffs tomorrow. Good time tor TomTom (and Linux) May 04 21:47
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schestowitz trmanco: thanks for the links May 04 21:50
*PetoKraus (n=pk@fsf/member/petokraus) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 21:51
trmanco ;) May 04 21:51
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trmanco “Mono may have its place. But is certainly not the magic bullet that some make it out to be. It’s another language and set of libraries that doesn’t seem to have all that much on other existing languages and libraries, despite what Miguel and Novell would like for people to think. Although from an empirical standpoint, it does seem to result in bigger, hungrier, more sluggish applications than most others.” May 04 21:59
bgtr4 .net is time-hungry May 04 22:00
*SubsonicB (n=chatzill@244.Red-88-5-77.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 22:02
SubsonicB Good evening gentlemen May 04 22:03
trmanco schestowitz, have you read the comments? May 04 22:06
*libervisco has quit (“Leaving”) May 04 22:08
trmanco good news May 04 22:16
trmanco “It is a prime candidate to replace Tomboy by default in Fedora 12. “ May 04 22:16
trmanco “Gnote has been in Fedora for the past few weeks and I have been keeping it updated to match upstream releases. The latest version 0.3.0 has been built for Rawhide (leading to Fedora 11) and Fedora 10 already. It is a prime candidate to replace Tomboy by default in Fedora 12.” May 04 22:16
trmanco https://www.redhat.com/archives/fe… May 04 22:16
*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-101-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 22:18
SubsonicB lets hope somebody ports f-spot and makes it mono-free following gnote example May 04 22:18
_Hicham_ fuck f-spot May 04 22:19
_Hicham_ fuck mono May 04 22:19
_Hicham_ Hi schestowitz! May 04 22:19
trmanco “So, basically your defense of Mono is that… it’s newer? May 04 22:19
trmanco Speaking of sticking the head in the sand! May 04 22:19
trmanco Suposedly Mono/.NET was to bing: faster development, safer code and near native code speeds (whe JIT-compiled). May 04 22:19
trmanco Gnote has needed a mere month to get to its actual state, and everybody says it’s clearly faster than Tomboy. The question is: is Tomboy any safer than Gnote? May 04 22:19
trmanco One interesting thing is that, in fact, the Gnote case is just anecdotal evidence. We still need more examples of real world applications ported.” May 04 22:19
schestowitz hey May 04 22:21
schestowitz SubsonicB: May 04 22:21
schestowitz i’m eating May 04 22:21
_Hicham_ the ideal is to create a migration framework May 04 22:21
_Hicham_ good appetite schestowitz May 04 22:22
_Hicham_ a migration framework just like the one proposed by Qt to migrate from MFC on Windows May 04 22:22
schestowitz Hi, SubsonicB. I will post lots of stuff tomorrow May 04 22:25
schestowitz I need to watch up with news first and post links before bedtime. May 04 22:25
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trmanco _Hicham_, MFC’s are a mess May 04 22:29
Balrog_ these people keep saying that ‘you pick on MS because they’re big’ May 04 22:29
_Hicham_ trmanco : MS do crappy software May 04 22:30
_Hicham_ they don’t focus on usability May 04 22:30
_Hicham_ instead, they focus on theming and so on May 04 22:30
trmanco _Hicham_, the problem is not usability, thats up to the dev, the real problem is the confusing and sloppy code the mfc wizard creates May 04 22:31
SubsonicB hi roy. thanks a lot May 04 22:31
Balrog_ and ‘they do <things> to make developers’ lives easier’ May 04 22:31
trmanco even functions don’t have a real naming logic… damn how I love php for this May 04 22:31
trmanco IMO, MFC’s are a complete nightmare May 04 22:32
_Hicham_ trmanco : MS have lots of problem in wrapping Win32 API May 04 22:32
_Hicham_ Win32 API was done in an old fashioned way May 04 22:32
_Hicham_ old fashioned and crappy May 04 22:32
_Hicham_ so wrapping it in C++ is not easy May 04 22:33
trmanco I’m actually learning this crap at school, and c++ (.NET) is the hardest language I’ve ever tried to learn in my life May 04 22:33
_Hicham_ there are some wrappers that are better in my opinion May 04 22:33
_Hicham_ like Win32++ May 04 22:33
Balrog_ C++.NET? May 04 22:33
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Balrog_ they probably make it hard to encourage C# May 04 22:34
SubsonicB trmanco, I agree with you MFCs are a hell of nonsense, there is no coherence at all in the libraries May 04 22:34
_Hicham_ trmanco : C++.NET is just another trap May 04 22:34
trmanco wait, maybe I’m confused May 04 22:34
_Hicham_ Balrog_ : it is not that May 04 22:34
trmanco I still remember visual basic .NET May 04 22:34
trmanco what I’m programming write now has nothing to do with .net May 04 22:34
trmanco I’m actually program in MSVC 6.0, and it never heard of .NET May 04 22:35
_Hicham_ all .NET language share the same set of namespaces May 04 22:35
trmanco I* May 04 22:35
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trmanco I think May 04 22:35
trmanco SubsonicB, I’m glad you agree with me :-P May 04 22:35
_Hicham_ trmanco : did u try Win32++? May 04 22:36
trmanco _Hicham_, no May 04 22:36
trmanco and I might not even try it May 04 22:36
trmanco can’t waste my time with a system I don’t even use at home :-p May 04 22:37
_Hicham_ Win32++ is a free and lightweight wrapper around Win32 API May 04 22:37
_Hicham_ better use GTKs May 04 22:37
_Hicham_ trmanco : did you use GTK on Windows? May 04 22:38
Balrog_ Mingw? May 04 22:38
trmanco yeah, I will try to learn the !gtk bindings! <- did I say this right? May 04 22:38
trmanco I’ve already looked into the docs, but it was just a light pass May 04 22:39
_Hicham_ with MinGW or MSVC May 04 22:39
_Hicham_ GTK is very Simple May 04 22:39
_Hicham_ GTKmm is a little bit complicated but less code May 04 22:39
_Hicham_ pyGTK, I haven’t tried it yet May 04 22:40
trmanco I might have to use gtk++ May 04 22:40
trmanco it’s cross platform May 04 22:40
trmanco Linux<->Windows at least May 04 22:40
_Hicham_ GTK is cross platform by definition May 04 22:41
_Hicham_ I developed a small encryption utility on Linux, and then ported it easily to Windows May 04 22:41
trmanco good May 04 22:41
trmanco but a still prefer php May 04 22:42
trmanco it also has gtk May 04 22:42
trmanco but don’t know how well it works May 04 22:42
trmanco :-p May 04 22:42
_Hicham_ GTK is everywhere May 04 22:42
_Hicham_ it is recommended by GNU May 04 22:43
trmanco :) May 04 22:43
_Hicham_ did u try Ubuntu 9.04? May 04 22:44
*oiaohm (n=oiaohm@unaffiliated/oiaohm) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 22:45
trmanco I’m on 9.04 May 04 22:45
trmanco but it’s not a clean install May 04 22:45
_Hicham_ did u do an upgrade from 8.10? May 04 22:46
trmanco my cousin installed it on his laptop, (windows screwed grub, made a fresh install) boot in about 20 seconds May 04 22:46
trmanco _Hicham_, yes May 04 22:46
trmanco but I already did an upgrade from 8.04 to 8.10 May 04 22:46
_Hicham_ you can reinstall grub May 04 22:47
*neonfloor has quit (“Leaving”) May 04 22:47
trmanco yeah, but he was just curious and had nothing to loose from installing ti all over again May 04 22:48
trmanco he also used ext4 for his / filesystem May 04 22:48
MinceR gn May 04 22:49
trmanco gn May 04 22:50
trmanco I’m also ready to go May 04 22:50
*ushimitsudoki1 (n=ushimits@p3147-ipad06yosemiya.okinawa.ocn.ne.jp) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 22:52
trmanco Ubuntu and Fedora Replace init with Upstart: http://www.linuxplanet.com/linux… May 04 22:54
trmanco cya May 04 22:58
*schestowitz catches up May 04 23:05
schestowitz _Hicham_: yes, I used Visual Studio just once many years ago.. to port an OpenGL program to Windows. It took one afternoon. May 04 23:06
schestowitz Windows version was 5 times slower! May 04 23:07
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SubsonicB must leave now, good evening gentlemen May 04 23:29
*SubsonicB has quit (“ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.10/2009042316]“) May 04 23:29
*the_mad_hatter (n=wayne@H108.C193.cci.switchworks.net) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 23:30
the_mad_hatter Roy, goto consumerwatchdog.org, and search on “microsoft”. May 04 23:30
the_mad_hatter http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/search/?… May 04 23:31
the_mad_hatter All of the articles listed are attacks on Google. There are no attacks on Microsoft for overcharging their customers, providing faulty software, etc. May 04 23:31
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schestowitz liHey May 04 23:38
schestowitz Yes, I saw that May 04 23:38
schestowitz I put a link to such a thing May 04 23:38
schestowitz See the comments May 04 23:38
schestowitz There’s more in these IRC logs, which you’ll see tomorrow if you read it May 04 23:39
schestowitz It brewed in IRC actually, like many other articles May 04 23:39
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*_Hicham_ (n=hicham@wana-137-245-12-196.wanamaroc.com) has joined #boycottnovell May 04 23:45
_Hicham_ Hi oiaohm May 04 23:45
*_Hicham_ has quit (Remote closed the connection) May 04 23:48
schestowitz I needed a picture of a red hat May 04 23:50
schestowitz I was tempted to us this: http://www.sxc.hu/photo/666098 May 04 23:50
schestowitz I’d just go with this instead: http://www.sxc.hu/photo/478830 May 04 23:50
schestowitz We might have more female readers than I realise May 04 23:50
schestowitz Red Hat: We Should Probably Look at Switching out Tomboy with Gnote in the Fedora 12 Panel Configuration < http://boycottnovell.com/2009/05/… > May 04 23:54
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